Medical Access, Terpene Science, and Humboldt Heritage

0:06BubblemanAll right, looks like we're getting ready to rock and roll. Here we go, here we go, here we go.

0:12SpeakerIt'd be cool if building a website felt like working in your favorite design.

0:23BubblemanI guess we got to.

0:24SpeakerOkay, here we go.

0:30BubblemanLet me just shut down this one over here. Welcome, everybody, on a Sunday morning at 9 a.m. Pacific Standard Time to Hash Church. Yes, we are in Hash Church. My goodness, what are we? Episode 14, Season 11 today? Unbelievable. We're trucking along. We're going to crush everything. Every week this year, I can promise you, I do not want to miss a single year. I do want to start out by shouting out my sponsors.

0:58BubblemanSo let me find that real quick. And we'll get into it here. Come everybody. I'm going to let everyone in here real soon. I just like to do the sponsorships first. So a big shout out to Dennis and Mark over at the Craft Greenery. That is hand selected and regionally sourced. These guys are doing it up big. Big shout out, really. Vancouver's premier cannabis dispensary for sponsoring today's event.

1:23BubblemanThank you guys so much. They're all about bringing the highest quality and widest variety of cannabis and extracts right to your doorsteps across Canada. Whether you're a connoisseur or a curious newcomer, Craft Greenery has something special for everyone. Making your cannabis journey both unique and unforgettable, check them out for an unparalleled selection that's curated with love and expertise. And keep up the great work, boys. You can see right here they've got a nice selection of rosins and melts, right?

1:53BubblemanI see dabble in there. I see nugs in there. I see earth wolf farm in there. I see inland genetics. I see my good friend Caitlin at High Fidelity. These guys have the selection for you. Go check them out. Make sure you mention Hash Church if and when you do. Because, yeah, we want to let them know that you guys are listening. Big thanks to Puffco for sponsoring Hash Church.

2:20BubblemanAs always, Puffco has revolutionized cannabis culture. I've said it a million times. They help normalize extracts with their incredible portable devices like the Puffco Peak Pro, the Pivot, and the Proxy. These amazing little units deliver top-tier performance and style, making them favorites in our community. Puffco's unwavering support for all things cannabis keeps us lit and united. Check them out. Puffco's got your back.

2:48BubblemanThose guys are good guys. Really can't say enough. And happy belated birthday to Jolly Roger as well as James on the team. We got a couple of Aries on the Puffco team. So we want to wish them the best as always. Puffco on the mountain. Hello. How happy do I look sitting on the chairlift just smashing out a couple of dabs on my little Puffco? Yes, I used to do it with my mothership and the Pelican case and the blowtorch and all of the tools.

3:16BubblemanThis is infinitely easier and often when people catch a glimpse, they come over and ask me, what is that? Is that one of those Puffco units? So very cool. Big shout out to Puffco and a big shout out to Sean from Heritage Seed Bank. These guys aren't just distributors. They have passion. They are passionate cultivators and really preservers of cannabis heritage with decades of breeding experience. They collaborate very closely with the top breeders to only offer high quality genetics.

3:46BubblemanTheir goal really is to empower all growers with access to the world's best genetics, knowledge and support, ensuring cannabis remains diverse, potent and accessible. That is no small goal. They pride themselves on ethics, integrity, and transparency while working only with reputable breeders for ethically sourced top standard seeds. They offer exclusive hard to find cannabis seeds with unmatched customer service, including fair pricing and accurate information. They're going to ensure fast, secure, discreet, worldwide shipping with stealth packaging for international orders, free replacements for poor germination or dissatisfaction, and prioritize client satisfaction.

4:24BubblemanAt Heritage Seed Bank, they build lasting relationships, supporting growers and upholding the traditions of exceptional cannabis cultivation. Well, let's not forget bubble bags. Bubble bags stand out as the premier choice for water hash extraction, and it's no surprise why. They're the original innovators who set the standard for quality and performance. Look, we didn't only set the standard for quality and performance. We set the standard and the bar for education.

4:51BubblemanWith all of my Instagram, Facebook groups, including Bubble Man's World and Hash Church, we've really been pushing education further along than any other group that's gotten into this. These are crafted with durability in mind. So these bags come with a lifetime warranty, ensuring you're covered for years of consistent use. A lifetime warranty really is about four or 500 uses. It's not 4,000. The team behind Bubble Bags takes pride in their pioneering legacy, backing every product with unwavering confidence and a commitment to excellence, making them the trusted go-to for enthusiasts and professionals alike seeking top tier hash extractions.

5:27BubblemanIf you're looking at a discount code, Hash Church 15 will get you a discount code on the bubble bags. It'll also get you a discount over with Sean at Heritage Seeds. And it'll also get you a discount with our last but not least sponsor, which is Grandmaster LEDs. Are you ready to take your grow to the next level? Grandmaster LEDs bring in the heat with cutting-edge light solutions designed for growers who demand the best.

5:52BubblemanWhether you're battling pests or chasing perfect yields, we've got you covered with the latest innovation. The UVC Tarantula Predator, the ultimate IPM bug light. This bad boy harnesses the power of UVC technology to zap mites, thrips, aphids, and more, keeping your garden pristine without chemicals or hassles. Pair it with a Grandmaster LED top-tier grow light, and you've got a setup that's unbeatable for potency, flavor, and peace of mind.

6:16BubblemanWaterproof, daisy chainable, and built to last, the Tarantula Predator is our new secret weapon, and it can be yours as well. Tune into Hash Church to hear the pros rave about Grandmaster LEDs, then grab yours at grandmasterleds.com. Use code hashchurch15 at checkout for an exclusive discount. Let up your grow the Grandmaster way. Because your plants deserve the best. Come on now, right? Shout out to Thomas and all the work he's done over there.

6:43BubblemanThank you everyone for tuning in today. I got five people waiting in the room right now. So we're going to let them in. We've had, I was speaking with Craig from Alpen Glow. We've got a bit of a mishmash show today. Craig was suggesting we do a little bit of a Humboldt scene. And we thought, well, it would be great to get Johnny back on and talk about the White Thorn Rose.

7:05BubblemanIt'd be great to get his homie Harry Rose on, who he's going to be telling us a lot about as well. And then I also spoke with Amy Van Dyken, who was on not too long ago for our sports medicine episode. And she was like, man, I had a ton of fun with you guys out there. Like, when can I come on again? I'm like, any time.

7:23BubblemanIt certainly doesn't have to be a sports medicine episode to have Amy come on. So we're really stoked on that. Welcome, everybody. How's everybody doing? How are you doing, Craig?

7:36SpeakerI am doing well. And, you know, let me see. Maybe I don't have my, you got me. My fault. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, I'm here. Can you get me?

7:49SpeakerI'm doing good this morning, but yeah, the missus and I always take the dogs for a walk in the morning. You know, we live up on a mountain and there's lots of wildlife. And of course, the morning I'm about to get on Hash Church, the little dog rolls in some crap. So, you know, he's got a neck full, so to speak. It's always like that. Also same.

8:16SpeakerAlso same. I might have rolled in crap today. I'm not confident. We'll get through it. I know. Check your neck. Check your neck. Check my neck. Apparently that's where it's at. Little dogs always like that. The big dog looks at him and is like, you stink. And then we know something's up. Yeah. Melanie's going to step in here for a minute. Here's what official dog poop cleanup looks like.

8:38SpeakerIt's a full suit, gloves, mask. The glamorous life of Melanie.

8:46BubblemanMelanie, you listen, I'm completely impressed by your life. You are a trooper. You are a hard worker. You are a farmer. You get shit done. I see you all the time. And a mother like just doing so much amazing stuff. I support you.

9:02SpeakerYeah, it's really funny. There's 25 years we've been, you know, living in this way. And gosh, it's like, it's always seems it's on like a beautiful Sunday, relaxing morning. You're going to move slow. Everything's still outside. And then either your children or your dogs do something. Or your husband. Or your husband. And then you end up looking like this. And you're like, oh, I thought I was gonna hang out with you guys and look glamorous and tell really sexy stories.

9:30SpeakerBut nope. This is what I'm doing. So good to see you all. Hi. Is that Johnny? Johnny's there. Harry's here. Yeah. Good to see you. Okay. I'm going to finish up. Have fun.

9:43SpeakerSo that's how we started off this morning. Unbelievable.

9:47BubblemanI had a bit of a hectic morning myself, mainly because I ended up snowboarding yesterday and I went a little hard. I can't remember exactly the vertical I did, but it was outrageous. It was like the vertical that some people do in their whole season. You know, like 40,000 or whatever. I just crushed it out in a day. I don't know how many. It was a sunny day where it was 20 degrees Celsius, which I'm guessing is like 75 Fahrenheit down in the village.

10:16BubblemanAnd then up top, it was really just around freezing. So the snow was kind of getting a little bit warmer and soft. And I had my Puff Co with me and I was puffing tough and just doing... Thank you so much for joining us.

10:42BubblemanI'm not 27 years old anymore. I'm 52 years old now. And I collapsed on my couch. And I woke up this morning at like 5 in the morning and kind of sauntered up off to bed. So a little bit unprepared this morning for the show. I had a few last minutes. And it's always good when my dear friend Amy Weinstein, she wanted to hit me up today.

11:04BubblemanShe calls me at 10 to 9. I'm like, Amy. Are you kidding me? I'm trying to... I've got a thousand things going on right now. I'm inviting Soma. I'm sending links out. I'm trying to... And of course, one of my favorite things when I go to go live... on zoom if i open the live and i don't do it right away and i wait four or five minutes when i go to go live it says you do not have permission to go live now i used to react to this very poorly much the way i used to react to having my instagram account shut down you know when we when we start to identify ourselves as the things that we do sometimes we can be destroyed when the things that we do are affected by Chaos or life.

11:49BubblemanAnd I know you know what I'm talking about, Amy, for sure. I see you and you certainly know it on a whole different level. But even the small level, you know, the responsibility I feel, which I'm sure is much the same to you when you're an Olympic athlete, you have a responsibility above and beyond to yourself. You have an entire team of people that are that are working with you that are all a part of this journey.

12:11BubblemanAnd so you guys are my team. All the people watching are my team. And I hate the idea of letting the team down when everyone's, you know, ready. It's nine o'clock. I'm trying to get it going. My mic's not working. I can't. So I'm very blessed that it all worked out today. I do want to give a massive shout out to John Hatch. This guy, this is the guy that showed up at my house during the snowstorm when I lost my power and did hash church from my phone and he brought me melt because I had no melt.

12:38BubblemanWell, Thank you for watching.

13:00BubblemanAt my house last night at like 8 o'clock at night he dropped this off. First of all, this is a unicorn. Anyone that knows how hard it is to even grow cannabis this way but then process it and how little you get and then to just bring it over to me who, I'll be honest, like I'm not... You know, I could have gone a day without hash.

13:22BubblemanIt's not like I'm some patient story that really, I just, I felt undeserving. So I want to give John a big shout out and. Yeah, just you're a great person, dude. You really are the kindest of kinds. And we're going to be talking about the kindest of kinds today. And I'm pretty sure that's why Harry is in the room today, because he's one of those guys that is the kindness of kind, doing the angelic work.

13:44BubblemanSo maybe we could start out with a little introduction from you, Harry. Would that be possible?

13:53BubblemanYou'll have to unmute first. Sorry, here, let me ask you to unmute. It makes it a little easier when you're on a phone. It's hard.

14:00SpeakerThere we go. Yep. Hello, everybody. Thanks for bringing me in. Well, for those of you that don't know me, I'm Harry Rose. And basically, you know, my life's work at the moment is taking care of Making sure that proper medicine is on the California market. The California market really got depleted of real medicine in mass for critically ill patients once we legalized, ironically. Most people went to adult use and if not everybody.

14:42SpeakerAnd so you could really see the writing on the wall that patients were suffering and the access went really, And so, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, You know, it's been quite a journey to try to hold it down and to be able to make sure that real, you know, properly made, organically sun grown material gets turned into things like specialized spectrums, you know, that we've gathered over the years from our knowledge, but full spectrum extracts as well as preparations so that the critically ill patients that we were already taking care of in the proposition All right, so we're going to take a short break.

15:46SpeakerFrom a personal journey, you know, I have severe autoimmune disease that comes from a long time coming from a kind of a hard life as a master electrician of lighting, being on the road for 24 years and working for rock and roll bands all the way to doing every product launch that Steve Jobs did. And I loved it, but I got really sick and almost died. And that was quite a healing journey.

16:14SpeakerAnd so that's what really led me into doing what I do, because even back then, they're really even in the Prop 215 era, there was barely any properly intentionally made products. You know, nobody really had the knowledge back then. And I was fortunate enough to be in Southern Humboldt.

16:39SpeakerAt the time, and my neighbor was Lawrence Ringo. And, you know, I was fortunate enough to be basically the first patient, you know, that took any of that type of medication on in our, in our little group. And I was kind of the guinea pig for the original sour tsunami, which turned out to be a very high cannabinoid three to one. And essentially that long story short, but you know, that that medicine led me to being able to shut off the autoimmune response that was killing me.

17:14SpeakerAnd then by working with lots of great doctors and biologists and so on, We're able to really put together what does what, you know, why do we need a 20 to 1 versus a 3 to 1 versus a 1 to 1, as well as sort of bring forward that, yes, the acidic cannabinoids are extremely powerful. You know, back then people thought they had to be activated. So we did a lot of experimentation.

17:42SpeakerWe worked with thousands of patients. And over the course of a couple of decades, we've Really kind of tightened up what we're doing. We have a pretty good knowledge base and we have a great set of formulas that we can help patients with. So that's really been my focus for a long time. But we've been able to put these products back to market again in California, thankfully, through the help of SOFL.

18:06SpeakerShout out to SOFL. But They've helped me get it into a compliant form and get it out there as well as, you know, being able to do compassion drops and compassion events with various organizations throughout California as well. So I do make hash, you know, hash is a passion. I do like, you know, smoking hash. Of course, I've been making hash since I'm 15, which was over 40 years ago.

18:33SpeakerDefinitely been And admire and somebody who bought the first series of bubble bags. I do have the first, you know, Gen 1 bubble bags. And definitely a big fan of solventless hash. But my passion is helping critically ill patients like myself and advising patients and trying to see if cannabinoid therapy is relevant. Is it something that would actually help in that particular situation? Because it's not always the appropriate

19:08SpeakerSo that's it in a nutshell, I guess, what I've been up to and what I've been doing. Harry, when you were talking, I don't know if you can see on your phone, but... I held up some of your legacy. I still have an original treat wellness and I still have an original rosette wellness. So this is kind of the evolution of how long Harry's been in the game.

19:35SpeakerIt's really, really something to admire because you've always been about the patient, right? And always been about making the medicine first to save your life and now to help and save the lives of others.

19:50SpeakerIt's very humbling. It definitely changed my life being on my deathbed. It sounds funny, but it's true. It really spins your head around and it changed the direction of my life completely. During the 2015 era when a lot of people were blowing it up and growing lots of great weed, I was basically... You know, giving away all my weed and trying to figure out all the different, you know, cannabinoids, what they do, the different ratios, all the other constituents that come with it, the best extraction methods for such, best suspensions.

20:29SpeakerLike, I was geeking out when the big flood of all this great stuff was happening and Even when some of the live rosins and live resins start to come about, I was really hyper focused on essentially making full spectrum extracts for patients. So I was on a little bit of a different course, but... What labs were you using at that time to get those full spectrum readings?

20:54SpeakerWell, to be honest with you, we started before there were labs. And so we were fortunate enough through Lawrence. Lawrence made friends with Samantha Miller, And Samantha Miller, you know, essentially did a lot of her early quantifications of how to test. And before she opened a lab with Ringo stuff, it was sort of a mutual relationship. You know, if you give me cool material and frankly, you know, Samantha Miller is part of the reason why I'm still alive today.

21:28SpeakerI definitely am very thankful. She provided us with endless amounts of knowledge as well as Endless amounts of tests. They did 40,000 tests from what I heard to quantify. They had a clandestine setup. Ringo was doing sort of rapid fire breeding in a very clandestine way. And she was coming in and doing testing. She was also really advanced in that she was able to test plants and quantify what ratios and approximate potency ranges so that it was a lot easier to do our selections, right, for breeding and selecting our moms.

22:12SpeakerAnd basically that's how we did a lot of that early Thank you for joining us.

22:33SpeakerIdentified strains that Ringo had. Ringo, so this is how it started, okay? Ringo originally hooked up with her and he, this is when the market was already getting screwed up because of so much flooding from 2015, you know, even in the early 2000s. And so he wanted to find the best, highest THC weed out of what he had. Well, what he found was, sure, he had a couple of strains that were high, extraordinarily high THC, but he had a bunch of weird minor cannabinoid stuff.

23:07SpeakerAnd she said, you have something here, you should do something with this. And that's right when I was basically dying. And so it all came together because she had told him that this stuff potentially was extremely valuable for medicine, that people were studying it and Meshulam was studying it. And, you know, they were starting to work into Kuno Lum in Israel. Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman,

23:55SpeakerYou know, and I was already taking RSO that I made out of Chemdog and it was helping, but it was not the ticket. And so as the story goes, you know, I got onto this three to one, which was part acidic, part neutral, you know, part decarboxylated. And about 60 days later, I woke up and I forgot that I was sick. And when you have what I have, you don't forget you're sick.

24:22SpeakerAnd it took me a couple hours and my wife thought something was wrong with me. And then I realized how much better I felt. And I realized that I got to look into this a little bit more. And people around me that knew me really freaked out because all of a sudden I had this massive turnaround. And I'm not saying that all I did was cannabinoids. There's other parts of the regimen that are very important to keep your health up, your immune system up, and your digestive absorption up.

24:49SpeakerBecause that's what was failing. I was at risk of going septic. I had barely any absorption. So I had to keep that part up. But the cannabinoids basically allowed my body to shut the switch off of my autoimmune response and bang. And so truthfully, this formula right here, balance, comes out of all that work. And When people see a miracle like that, it shakes people. It shook me pretty good because I believed, but I didn't realize that you really could stop your death spiral.

25:27SpeakerSo that's how all of a sudden patients started coming, coming, coming. We had people directing patients towards us. You got to remember the era was highly illegal at that point. So we had a lot of people coming our way that were patients from all over the world. And it just kept building to the point where I had to formalize it or we were going to get into serious trouble because we were putting out a lot, a lot, a lot of Full Spectrum Extract, all of my crop, all of Ringo's crop, and eventually 200 farmers that Ringo had collected.

26:01SpeakerHe made a collective called the Lost Coast Collective, I think. That was one of the first collectives here, and everybody was growing this weed, and we were making tons of medicine, and Helping lots of people and it got like I said it got a little crazy because people were starting to catch on and regardless of what we were doing it was still a schedule one narcotic manufacturing charge and you know you got to be careful and so that's why we decided to formalize it be 100 above board as you possibly can and have as compliant of a company both legally financially and so on And we had a great team of people and we got it out to tens of thousands of patients.

26:45SpeakerWhen 215 shut down, I had over 10,000 active verified patients, you know, under our roster with all their medical information. And we're pretty proud of what we got to do then. I just wish that the world caught up and that medicine was a lot more formalized and that I wasn't the only one carrying the torch right now, so to speak. But, you know, there's a lot of patients like myself that are out of time, out of options.

27:15SpeakerAnd so somebody's got to do it. And I think that eventually, you know, once all the chaos of the world settles down for a while, people are going to let it back in again and hopefully a lot more formalized. You know, because that's what it takes, unfortunately, right? You need formalized testing that people adhere to normally so that the rest of the world will believe it. But I think that that'll come.

27:44SpeakerI do. But somebody's got to hold it down and pass the knowledge on. Absolutely. That's it, man. So that's my deal.

27:53BubblemanYou're doing great work, man. And, you know, I want to kind of go back to the start of it, because I think there's a really important conversation. And I know I saw it here in Canada. And I was, you know, I also kind of got caught into this sort of compassionate medical thing at a pretty early age. I when I moved to Vancouver in 1996, the only person I knew was Hillary Black.

28:14BubblemanShe was my one friend. She used to work at Mark Emery's store. She was super young. I mean, I met Hillary when she was I want to say 16 or 17 years old. I was probably 21 or 22. We were pretty young. We were the hemp guys from Manitoba. So we were kind of like the hillbillies that came out with the funny accents, you know, the Fargo, North Dakota.

28:34BubblemanHey, how you doing? Hey, like we got the We got a bag of silver haze finger hash here, eh? And so we went to Mark Emery's store and we just weren't cool. And most of the people that worked there wouldn't give us the time of day, but Hillary gave us the time of day. Hillary understood and she recognized and I became dear friends with her. And of course, when she was, you know, kind of going through this thing with Todd McCormick, he was living in that mansion in California down there on Laurel Canyon with like the Reagans as his neighbor.

29:04BubblemanAnd she was like, should I like move in with Todd? And like, I love Todd, but like, he's kind of not really monogamous. And, you know, she's a young girl. She's like in love with this guy. She wants to be with this guy. But and I'm like, I'm moving to Canada. I'm moving to the West Coast here, Hillary. Like, it would be cool if you stayed just for selfish reasons for myself.

29:23BubblemanAnd in the end, you know, through her inspirations, through people like Valerie Corral and Mike and all of the people at WAM and Thank you so much for joining us.

29:49BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

30:16BubblemanAnd that's who Hillary decided she was going to help. And that's how the BC Compassion Club got started. And I was flipping pounds, you know, just making so much money in the cannabis world that it was Hillary's empathy and compassion that really had an effect on me. And so I started feeling like, Thank you for watching.

30:52BubblemanOff of this group of people, it was just, they were just too vulnerable. It was like, no, no, no, this is like a full, we got to get behind this. And so when I got my medical license a couple of years later, my federal license from Health Canada, it was an MMAR license. I felt like I was one... of zero of zero i was one of one that was the only person in my province or maybe my country that wasn't using my medical license to grow cannabis to sell to the black market and a lot of people were like what's your why are you all so self-righteous and i was like because it's affecting the patients you are using this license as a shield for your own black market and i'm not against the black market i stand behind people in the black market but for god's sakes don't use Patience as your shield.

31:44BubblemanThis is terrible. And they were like, no, no, that's not what we're doing. Nobody's doing that. And I know that's what they were doing because I see what happened when recreational came in right after medical. Recreational was never coming in before medical. Medical was never coming in until we had... Four-year-old children having 150 epileptic seizures a day. This was the last leg of prohibition. This was the one that the only person I ever saw argue against it was Chris Christie.

32:12BubblemanHe actually argued with the dad of the epileptic child who was having hundreds of seizures a day. And I was like, wow, this guy is like, In fact, it was one of the last times I ever saw him in the news, in the media. He just disappeared after he made that stance because holy shit, talk about being on the wrong side of history. So when you were talking about how it played out in California with 215 and how it's all wrecked, the exact same thing happened in Canada to the tune of The pharmaceutical or the pharmacy company owned by Loblaws, a $55 billion company here in Canada, which is called, what was it?

32:49BubblemanNot Pharmaseve, London Drugs. Oh, I'm spacing out. Pharmaseve. One of the big ones, Shopper's Drug Mart. That's who it was. It was Shopper's Drug Mart. So they had a massive play in cannabis. They were like, look, if we're gonna, like we distribute medicine, it makes sense that we will distribute this if it's a medicine. But because cannabis was both a medicine and a recreational drug, In my opinion, it really affected the patients in a big way.

33:18BubblemanAnd all like a perfect example, Whistler Medical. Okay. They had 15 different oils, different oils, very much like what you were holding up there. My partner Daniel created this thing called the Terp Reactor years ago and all he really did was figure why would you dry the bubble if you have not enough freeze dryers in the first place and that's your bottleneck. Why don't we take the bubble that we don't want to go into inhalables and we put it over here into a plant fat into a reactor and we decarboxylate and cook it into a beautiful oil sealed, filtered, and it comes out beautiful and gold.

33:55BubblemanThis was fully decarbed. This wasn't like Prana or potentially what you're doing with acid versions of the molecule as well as non-acid versions. But they had about 15 to 18 different ones on the website. And my mother, who worked for the police for 35 years, who I finally convinced that she should be using cannabis at least to regulate her sleep and try to understand that this signaling system can regulate the majority of your biological functions if you allow it to.

34:24BubblemanAnd so she started buying these oils and it was a big deal for her. This was a very straight woman who never used cannabis in her entire life, worked for the police for 30 years, thought of it as, you know, the enemy and then came out as she's becoming, you know, a 70 year old woman and not being able to sleep. If you can't sleep, you can't heal.

34:42BubblemanThank you so much for watching.

35:02BubblemanShe said, no, I don't. Who's that? I said, hash smokers. We don't have insomnia. We sleep like babies. And I was turning this woman on to being able to use these oils. Anyway, Whistler Technology gets bought by Aurora for $100 million or some outrageous thing. Now they have maybe two of those oils. My mom was beyond crushed and disappointed. You don't understand the importance of creating a medicine for someone that is gonna change their life and allow them to sleep and literally lengthen and improve the quality of their life.

35:39BubblemanAnd to have that just disappear because now they're too busy pumping out recreational products. And I'm not trying to shit on the recreational market by any means. And a lot of people will say, well, why don't you just go And purchased the recreational products. Well, it's like, well, they're taxed. They're more expensive. The margins are higher. Like we got to take care of people with medicine. And I just look forward to a day where we can potentially bring cannabis back.

36:04BubblemanEveryone thought medical was the most important when they knew it was their foot in the door. And now 99% of them have turned their fucking backs on it. And it kind of pisses me off. So I recognize the work that you're doing, Harry. I see you and I thank you. And if there's anything I can do to help facilitate or my community here at Hash Church can help facilitate, please do not hesitate to ask us.

36:27BubblemanWe will do whatever we can.

36:29SpeakerThank you. Appreciate it, Marcus.

36:32BubblemanYeah, I appreciate Craig bringing you on today. It's so funny. He's like, hey, I got a couple of people. Like, do you think I could bring like Harry Rose and Johnny back on? I'm like... Duh, like, hello, yeah, of course, let's do it. And so, you know, it was a bit rushed to kind of, you know, at the start of the week, I said, let's do it.

36:50BubblemanAnd Craig was like, oh, geez, well, okay, geez, I'm not sure if we're going to be able to manage to get it. I'll start reaching out. I'll start putting the feelers out. So that's kind of how Hash Church comes up every week. We don't plan shows months in advance. It's really just about what does the community need to hear? For me, obviously, I love doing shows like we did recently with the big facilities and the shining, all the money shots and stuff, but I really hold dear to my heart the patient stories, you know, and I'm hoping, I really hope that Wade is doing okay today and that I hope he will, I sent Monica a message earlier that even if he wants to just come and sit with us, Thank you so much for watching.

38:00BubblemanWhat a name. What a name.

38:03Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWelcome, Josh. It just makes you feel good when you say laughter. You know, he's just a good person. And Wade, you know, again, we'll just second that emotion that we love you. And we're thinking about you every single day. Every moment of the day, I'm thinking about you and sending you love.

38:22BubblemanIs it weird that I heard you say second that emotion in Donna Godchild's voice? Is that weird?

38:30Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt's actually probably pretty normal. What do you think about it? But yeah, no. Harry, I mean, amazing story. And thank you, you know, for not just this, because it's not just a story. It's something that you lived and it's extremely real. And when it's your life, you know, and then you're recounting your life, it's important to remember. I mean, this person's every moment, you know, every breath and every... And then to take on your healing and then pass it on to...

38:58Josh Dragonfly Earth Medicinethousands of other people is extremely uh it's inspiring you know and uh And that's what I think the essence of being a human is. That's what touches you in that sacred spot that says, you know what, I'm part of something special. I'm not part of division and all these different ideas and stuff. I'm part of humanity. And we want to feel good and we have some good ideas on how to do it.

39:24Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo we really appreciate that. And again, Craig, all the work that you do and everyone on here. extremely close to our heart marcus hillary we we found british columbia kind of in that light you know we were in oregon and doing midwifery and we're kind of in that midwife cannabis herbalist realm where all of it was illegal except for in oregon i mean well cannabis was super illegal in oregon in the 90s But midwifery wasn't.

39:56Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo it was a time when we could really learn about herbalism and study home birth and traditional midwifery and invite herbalists from other parts of the world to come into our community and teach us. And by us, I mean Kelly, my partner, and then me being around and helping and assisting. It was empowering. And it was a group of people and women that didn't have the law on their back and were able to really support families again in their need in that life and death moment of birth.

40:28Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd also death, you know, but mainly deaths of like an elder, you know, the babies were coming in healthy. So and then finding the Kootenays in the late 90s and then the Nelson area was amazing because it was just this. We're a full-blown mountain community with not that many people, but most of the people here were super radical in the way of, hey, you know what? I'm leaving something I don't like, and I'm here to make...

41:02Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThat new feeling happened, which happened in Oregon, happened in California, happened everywhere. I think it was very much so interconnected. That's why often we don't even like the term borders or, you know, we're from bioregions, you know, and bioregions, they offer ways of life, you know, and it doesn't really matter what countries they come and go all the time, you know, even languages. I mean, you know, we've spoken all one language and then they change it up, but Finding this did allow us to supply medicine and live medicine, kind of have like a medicine life where you chose, you know what, no matter what, I'm going to be surrounded by clean water mountains.

41:43Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI'm going to try and... Go into the forest as much as possible. Learn from traditional ways, but also become the traditional way by the lifestyle and kind of maybe be vulnerable at times that you don't always have. It's not like you start out and you have this international company. You start out as two young people that really are trying to find their way. And then you just have that dedication of like, you know what?

42:10Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineOne thing I know is I'm dedicated to everything's natural. Thank you for joining us.

42:37Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt sort of shaves off biology. You know, it kind of shaves off organic farming and medicine making. It kind of, in a sense, it pharmaceuticalizes it a bit. And then you kind of have to And so it's, it's a whole new,

43:14Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWay of providing medicine and stuff. So it's probably always important to have your foot in medical for the people, because that's really what medicine's meant for. And that's what the garden teaches you and all that. So that's it.

43:29BubblemanIt's wise. It's why Skunk Man Sam did it the way he did it. And he took such a beating for doing it the way he did it. You know, he understood that. I want to touch millions of people. I want to get medicine access. He wanted to do his work in a way that the DEA and other groups worldwide wouldn't sort of keep it from happening. And huge shout out to the Kootenays.

43:55BubblemanObviously, the Kootenays was massively influenced by Draft Dodgers coming from California and the rest of the West Coast. They brought this incredible, it's funny how Draft Dodgers is like supposed to be a bad word. I think of it as like a Thank you for joining us.

44:27BubblemanAwesome community of people who are into organic farming and into cannabis and into creating a lifestyle that removed you from the slave wage mentality that I guess most of those wars were being fought for in the first place. Go ahead.

44:45Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYeah, it was also the Buddhism and the Gampa and having a Rinpoche in the area that was teaching, you know, meditation and different things. That was a very influential thing in our community. Also, the Duke of Wars, which are Russian Uh, sect of people which left Russia or gotten better, got not better, but to be more truthful, they got kicked out of Russia by being a pacifist group and then put into Saskatchewan and then later put into the Kootenays and were a land based people that really traditionally survived on flax, you know, for food and clothing and everything.

45:26Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBut really, in the end, we're just land Amazing homesteaders, let's say. So when people came from America, different cities in America, and they're like, you know what, I don't even know how to chop wood. I don't know what wood to look for. I don't know how much wood to get. I don't know what saving seeds is. I don't know what it means to need to save a seed so I can plant it next year.

45:45Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBecause, you know, you can get seeds, sometimes you can't. You know, so it's always better, like if I'm eating all the time, and there's seeds in all these foods, Why am I throwing the seeds away? Why am I not just figuring out how to save seed in my favorite tomato that I love? Like, wow, that makes a lot of sense. So, you know, it was a lot of that.

46:04Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineDuke of Wars, Draft Dodgers, and then, you know, the native, some of the native people that were around in the Sinai, you know, helped a lot of people live well here. So give thanks. And Ganja was free in the sense where you could, In Oregon and Northern California, it was really militant back in the day in the sense of like, you know, guarded by weapons. And then there was that kind of, you know, Vietnam vet kind of, you know, mentality in a sense, which was kind of like, it was just harder.

46:33Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd that's just the way it was. And when we came up here, we were just like barefoot running through the mountains. Like, honestly, it was just, can you live here? Because it wasn't even about like, You know, being, you know, whether, you know, because it wasn't just handed to you. You had to really honestly learn.

46:51BubblemanWhat year did you move there? In October of 1998, Sky was- Okay, so that was a year, that year, a lot of people were moving to the Kootenays because, and I'm not saying that you were, but a lot of people moved to the Kootenays in that year because you could just walk pounds right across the border. That was attracting a lot of people. We were buying pounds for 2,000 Canadian and then you walked it over the border to Spokane and it was 4,000 US.

47:18BubblemanAnd in 1998, the exchange rate was 1.49

47:23BubblemanThank you for watching.

47:43BubblemanThank you for watching.

47:58BubblemanTo move to the Kootenays. I was lucky enough to go to the Kootenays in 1990. I grew my first crop there in 91 with the Holy Smokes guys, with Paul DeFeliz and Alan Middlemiss. We grew the A1 Magenta. I remember going out and digging the holes. I remember them teaching me about mixing soil. I was just like, what is it you guys are doing? They had this big tarp out and they were just throwing all of these things into it and mixing it up.

48:22BubblemanAnd I was just like from Manitoba, like,

48:23Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWhat exactly is this witchcraft that we are engaging in?

48:28BubblemanThis was when, and I'm sure it's still to this day, but they were doing a lot of roadblocks in the Kootenays in the early 90s, mid 90s. And if you got caught with shovels, if you got caught with... Any type of anything that's cannabis related. It didn't even have to be cannabis. It would get you on a list and they'd start, you know, it's the Kootenay. So it's super small.

48:48BubblemanIt's very much like where I live in the sense that I have one road. South Park makes fun of Canada all the time. They're like, there's one road in Canada. There literally is. There's a road called the number one highway. It goes from the West Coast all the way to the East Coast. Then you take a 16-hour ferry and it goes all the way across Newfoundland to the other side of that rock.

49:06BubblemanSo it is kind of hilarious. The Kootenays is very similar. There's this one road that you have to use to gain access to everything. Very much like my road here, the 99 Highway, the Sea to Sky Highway, which goes up to Squamish, Whistler, and Pemberton. There's one way into this road. Let's just say it's not the smartest road to do any type of crime, or it's very easy for them to pinch both ends of the road and get you in that way.

49:34SpeakerSo back in the day, we were a little bit more...

49:37BubblemanAnd helicopters, exactly. The DEA used to spend an enormous amount of money putting gasoline into helicopters up here in Canada, very much the same way they did down in California and throughout the US. They did it up here in Canada as well. Back in the 90s, we were sending... We, not me, as in BC, was sending thousands, tens of thousands of pounds. I don't think people really understand how much cannabis was being sent.

50:05BubblemanBecause, you know, you might have known a group that was doing this or that. But once you started knowing the majority of the groups, you were like, oh, my God, this is tens of thousands of pounds every week is getting sent down there.

50:17Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineHydro scene really blew it up hardcore. That was the way. Well, what?

50:22BubblemanWell, what really blew it up hardcore was when Breeders Steve gave these Vietnamese guys the grapefruit cut and these Vietnamese guys were like on a next level. Like they listened and they worked together and they didn't have the sort of same aspect that Caucasian people have where they like argue and no, I'm just going to do this because I'm the grower and I know better than you.

50:43BubblemanAnd you just see like Caucasian people ratting each other out and just like not listening. And then you see these Vietnamese guys and one guy would tell them what to do. And they would just follow through and listen. And the first couple of crops they grew were shockingly good. Nobody could believe it. And then very soon after, once they realized that a lot of buyers were bouncing the flower, they were bouncing the resin off of the flower before they were taking it down.

51:10BubblemanAnd at that point, they stopped drying the flower to make it harder for that. They were drying it still, but they were leaving it really moist, which was a lot harder to get the resin off. This was before people really understood The cold supply chain that if you make it cold, the resin will come off much easier. But yeah, just an interesting sort of side nudge of the sort of prohibition based cannabis and how it was working here in Canada.

51:37BubblemanBefore Hillary really got into things and, you know, started promoting medical.

51:42Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI just wanted to shout out Dustin Sunflower because he's also another person who's in bed right now, not feeling super well in life, you know, definitely could use like a lot of love and positive interactions from people's thoughts. So and Dustin Sunflower was part of Holy Smoke and Holy Smoke. There was three people involved in it and it was super influential. I would also love to hear from everyone else.

52:08Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd thank you for that time. And we love and appreciate everyone here. Everyone has such an amazing story. And I love hearing all of it.

52:16BubblemanYes, well said. Well said. Dr. Mark. Welcome, Dr. Mark. Is this Terp Team 6? Is this your homie from Vermont?

52:27BubblemanOh, you're muted.

52:33BubblemanAnd there you go. Having a PhD does not necessarily make you good at computers.

52:41BubblemanHere, let me ask you to unmute. You're still muted. I don't know why. It's not unmuting. You know, you're still muted. Maybe the trainer can unmute and tell us.

52:50DrNow, how about that? Oh, there he is. There he is. Yeah, I think my mouse is low on batteries or something. Sorry about that. Hey, yeah, I'm going to introduce Trainer. Trainer was actually sitting with me and Kind Bill for the solvent episode. And Trainer is, well, I'll let Trainer introduce himself. But he's a hash maker from up here in Vermont and came by yesterday with this mode of breath.

53:19DrJust absolutely just fucking fire. So thank you, Trainer. Trainer, go ahead, introduce yourself and your company.

53:29SpeakerHey, guys, thanks for having me on. Yeah, my name is Trainer. My company is called Weeping Willow, and we're partners with Haybud here in Vermont. We're just working on our manufacturing license and Have a organic grow all no-till living soil, both indoors and outdoors. And a dispensary as well. So what we're trying to do the whole integration, but also incorporate, you know, our friends who we like, they're growing SOPs and all that stuff.

54:01SpeakerSo it's, it's kind of a family affair. Let's see if I can switch my camera around.

54:09SpeakerSo got some Chemdog right here. We just processed and some Dulce de Fresa Melt, the Dulce from Bloom Seed Co. Oh, nice. Yeah, delicious, delicious, super nice, grapey, gassy turps. Yeah, so I grew up in Massachusetts. I've been growing since I was about 15 years old, you know, started growing down by The railroad tracks in the river, growing a few plants down there. Came up to Vermont for school and have always been really into hash making as well.

54:46SpeakerYou know, made hash in my friend's garages in high school and such. Got a job in the medical market up here on the, you know, the growing side and processing. Started getting more into the processing and have just been, you know, trying to refine, refine my craft here and, uh, Yeah, Vermont's got a pretty strong, pretty strong scene. I think a lot of, a lot of really talented small growers kind of in the same, same vein, obviously smaller, but the, as the, the, the whole NorCal scene where a lot of people, you know, deep in the woods doing their own thing, living by their own laws, kind of, you know, the, the, the outlaw mentality.

55:26SpeakerSo it's been interesting to see that, you know, transition into the regulated market here. A lot of really good people and, you know, kind characters out here in the hills of Vermont. But yeah, just trying to produce good material that, you know,

55:47SpeakerThe rec, the medical market here in Vermont is, is tough. There's a, there's some, some moves to really bring in access for medical patients in the recreational market, like removing the taxes for medical patients, allowing for, you know, less restrictive packaging. So I'm sure as you guys all know, like the, a lot of the recreational markets, they require these like child resistant jars and such, which can be really difficult for, you know, people with arthritis or, A lot of, a lot of patients have, you know, difficulty opening the packaging and stuff like that.

56:19SpeakerSo some, some cool things in the works here in Vermont, as far as allowing more access to, to medical patients in the recreational stores that will, you know, make it so they don't have to pay tax, make it so they can actually have accessible packaging.

56:35DrUm, but yeah, they got a stupid THCA cap, Marcus. It's ridiculous. It's like, oh yeah, Quebec.

56:43BubblemanWell, you're right below Quebec and they have a 30% THC cap right there. I could see them somehow. On concentrates? On everything. On everything. 30%. 30%.

56:53DrTell them about the cap that we have here in Vermont.

56:58SpeakerYeah. So in Vermont, we've got a 30% cap on, um, on flour, 30%. It's defined as activated THC. So, you know, your THCA could be, you know, marginally higher, but they test it as the activated THC form. Concentrates are restricted to 60% with, they give us like a 10% variance, they call it, similar to how, you know, an edible that you buy in the market. If it's a 10 milligram, it might be, you know, 11 milligrams or 9 milligrams.

57:33SpeakerThat would be the variant. They allow that similar type of variance on concentrates. So you can be up to 66% activated THC, which would give you up to somewhere in the low 70s of THCA. So we're still able to put good quality concentrates on the market. But in that same vein, we are restricted. And sometimes we'll get a batch that might be really, really good. Thank you for joining us.

58:15BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

58:32BubblemanAnd that we're still like, you know, my brand is in seven states right now. And this is something I'm trying to figure out. Like, yes, I'm in the recreational market in seven different states with conversations going on in about four others. But I want to figure out like, there's got to be a way where... Because what they did with medical was medical was the only thing. All of us would have been in medical from the start.

58:53BubblemanAnd then the minute it kind of became recreational, everyone just jumped ship and went right into the rec market. And the medical market was kind of left like this floating ghost ship in the middle of the ocean without really anyone tending to it. And I mean, you know, when I hear guys like Harry speak, it always makes me feel like, well, I got to be able to do more.

59:16BubblemanYou know, there's got to be, and guys like Etienne, guys like, there's just people who have just been putting so much into this, the medical aspect that, yes, of course, I'm happy to be involved in recreational cannabis, but nothing ever made me feel better in my soul than giving cannabis away for free to medical patients. You know, to compassion patients. So I wonder how we can make it cool on Instagram to post our product and say, this is for medical and I'm going to get less of a margin.

59:49BubblemanHow do we make that cool?

59:51Etienne FontanWell, you basically... You reach out to them from their hearts and you basically, you show them why there is a medicinal need, right? And why they have to give a fuck, right? Otherwise they have no fucks to give or reasons to care, right? But once people see the effect that medical cannabis has on people, you understand that the cost is so high and you understand why we've been giving away free cannabis for 26 plus years.

1:00:20Etienne FontanThank you for watching.

1:00:44Etienne FontanThat's how it started for me is a veteran grower decided to take extra and give it away for free to other veterans in need, right? So you find somebody in need and then you promote how you're taking care of them and how, who are you adopting? Who are you taking care of? Who are you giving away free cannabis to and taking care of, right? Take a part of your crop, put it aside for people in need and you find an organization for those people Like here in California, we have SB 34 so we can donate cannabis to organizations that can then distribute it via dispensary legally, right?

1:01:24Etienne FontanWell, other states can do this too if you get your heads out of your ass and you look at, you know, a way in your own state or country to allow for free giving. Tax-free so that you can adopt a patient so that, hi, congratulations, you just found out you've got scheduled for cancer. Well, what, now you have to figure out how to grow? No, a grower finds you and adopts you and takes care of you.

1:01:51Etienne FontanAnd that's how we originally did it here in California is it's all about taking care of your community. Still done one person at a time. And I fortunately had one of Dennis Perrone's grower back in the 90s who took care of veterans. And every week I got a free eighth of fresh cannabis. And it made all the difference in the world for my body and my sanity because I was poor.

1:02:16Etienne FontanI was an activist on the road. We'll see how it goes.

1:02:48SpeakerI think ATN, I think that's really beautiful. Hi, everybody. Good morning. Happy Sunday. I just wanted to say that I think one way that we can actively bring medicine back into the conversations is bringing medicine back into the conversations. And I think that that's super easy. And that's something that you can do with $0. You actually don't even have to make connections with other people and do it.

1:03:17SpeakerYou can just start to make sure that your conversations about cannabis, surrounding cannabis, Amy Van Dyken, MD, Whether you're selling it, whether you're growing it, whether you're just partaking in it, whether you're educating about it, that the idea of medicine, the lab tests of medicine, the backed up responses that we get from people around the world about medicine, The fact that we're bringing forth a huge industry right now that has money, money, money on it because business people have really stepped in and now taxes and everybody loves to talk about taxes right now.

1:03:59SpeakerAnd, or maybe not. But anyway, I just feel like that's something that can easily be done and it can be done right now. And it can be done even in your own living room. If you're sitting right now on a Sunday morning and you're listening to Hash Church, you can have a really quick conversation with the people around you and be like, oh yeah, how can we bring that conversation of medicine back into even our living room?

1:04:24SpeakerSo that's super simple. All the love, everybody.

1:04:28BubblemanBeautiful. Welcome, Kelly. Nice to see you. It's great seeing you guys in Barcelona. Good fun. Good fun. Oh, ATN's requesting. What do we got going on, ATN? You going to do a presentation? Boom.

1:04:44Etienne FontanYeah, that's what compassionate looks like, people. Last week, I wasn't on Hash Church except for a blip because me and my boy Mike from Veterans Action Council We, thanks to Puffco, they donated me a Puffco, but of course, Wade burned himself lighting a joint and he was on with us and he was upset about it. And I couldn't in good conscious sit on that Puffco. And so I drove four hours each way to go visit him last week.

1:05:19Etienne FontanAnd this is him pontificating last week on Hash Church. So compassion is sometimes about just getting off your ass and doing something. Okay. Contributing and showing love because the smile on his face and the tears in his wife's eyes, hearing him laugh again, made all the payment in the world. And so it's not about money people. Sometimes it's about reaching out to friends. It's about extending yourself a little bit and inconveniencing yourself because sometimes you have to do that in life to show the love.

1:05:51BubblemanCompassion is a verb. Compassion is a verb, right? He said that, I made a little clip of Wade's quote from last week's show about how it's an action, right? It's where empathy changes, right? Empathy is the feeling, but when you engage in the action of empathy to help, then you are creating compassion, right? Beautiful.

1:06:24DrWith all that's going on these days, you know, again, I don't want to steer the conversation politically, but there was a recent politician who made the statement that a society is judged by how it takes care of the most vulnerable people. And if you think about that, if you think about that, that's really, that's where the compassion comes from. It's so much better To give, then receive.

1:06:55DrAnd those of us who have given over the years, and you know, I see ATN snapping his fingers because I know he believes, you know, someone like ATN who has provided medicine and did what he needed to do to bring Wade, you know, a little bit of laughter. I mean, who better to have laughter than Wade laughter, right? But yeah, think about that. How a society is judged is how we take care of the most vulnerable people, the sickest and the poorest people.

1:07:26DrAnd if you think about that, that's what compassion is all about.

1:07:31BubblemanThat's kind of one of the reasons I always look down on the American government more than anything. You know, for so many years, everyone's arguing about who's in power. I'm like, really? They're all treating veterans like shit. So where's the win? How can you want to vote this way or that way when they all treat veterans like shit? People they sent to war and completely fucked psychologically, physically, emotionally, in every way that you could possibly do that, maybe to the highest level that it can be done.

1:08:03DrAnd then to ignore them. If you can't take care of your veterans... You should never send them to war to begin with. As soon as you send one of these kids off to war, we have to assume that we have to take care of him when they come back. ATN, I don't know if you saw this, but there was a really interesting study now that shows that veterans can get traumatic brain injury without actually having a wound to the head just by using those really loud guns and ammunition.

1:08:37Dris enough to send a shockwave through the brain that actually causes traumatic brain injury and there was a recent suicide of a veteran whose father is kind of taking on the challenge now to make sure that they know that you don't need to have a gaping hole in your head to have traumatic brain injury you know just using firing those weapons the shockwave from that is enough to Thank you for watching.

1:09:22DrThings that can cause cancer. And so we all know the central role that the endocannabinoid system plays in regulating all the other systems in our body. I've said it before on hash church markets. The endocannabinoid system is our body's own pharmaceutical company. And nurturing that through diet and through, you know, again, cannabis and phytocannabinoids should be looked at. Vitamin supplements just like vitamin C and vitamin D and vitamin F and that we're all taking all these vitamins and everything.

1:09:55DrBut ultimately, cannabis is keeping our bodies healthy because there is no recreational use of cannabis. Marcus, I want to just add one other thing. You know, you had Dave and Alan reach out to me during the week. Oh my God, that guy is just such a trip, man. He's so funny to talk to. He's like, I could see we're just having him at discussion.

1:10:16BubblemanI'm trying to get him in right now. I'm texting with him right now saying, come in. He's like, well, I'm watching. I'm learning. I'm like, no, come in, dude. You're a voice of authority.

1:10:25Etienne FontanWe all watch and learn together, Doc. Get your fucking ass in here.

1:10:30DrHere's a guy who's a noted heart surgeon, right? I mean, did open heart surgery on patients, saved patients' lives, who really understands the central role of the endocannabinoid system and how that plays in mediating human health and disease. And he's just such an interesting guy to talk to, man. What started as just a quick conversation ended up being about two and a half hours. You can imagine me and him on a phone call.

1:10:58DrYou guys had your own hash church. Oh, man, it was so funny. But he's drawn me into wanting to participate in your journal club. Yes, please. And really making it something that can be used not only to educate people, but can be used as a reference That people can go back to and refer to certain episodes and discussions around Scientific journals. You know, we got to keep this thing going, that cannabis is really a medicine and that the endocannabinoid system is a very important way of controlling human health.

1:11:35DrAnd we can't just let it go over to schedule three. I think that's just a misconception that's somehow going to create better access to patients. We need to remove it from the schedule altogether. It's not dangerous, so it shouldn't be scheduled. And certainly the DEA has got all kinds of other issues like fentanyl. And heroin to go after that are basically killing people. So yeah, we need to get the, you know, it removed.

1:12:02DrWe need to harmonize what is industrial hemp down here, which yeah, is, you know, drug variety, you know, type three cannabis, which is low THC. We need to harmonize those two markets and those two things, because those two industries fight in our states. There's various lawsuits. There's various places where you can grow. T8CA Flower, which we all know is just cannabis. And it really hampers.

1:12:28BubblemanCannabis is such a chameleon, hey? She's just a trickster.

1:12:33DrBut the patchwork of regulations throughout the country just needs to be gotten rid of. And they need to basically harmonize this throughout the country. Because right now, again, there's lawsuits. There's ways that you can basically play both sides. And I think a lot of the MSOs are making now hemp plays because they realize it's a much larger, addressable market. There's a whole lot less regulation. But we need to get these two sides to come together.

1:13:01BubblemanBe careful what you ask for. Ain't that the truth? She's a trickster. She's, you want to categorize her? Good luck. Good luck categorizing her. Welcome, Ryan Lee. Welcome, Collin Palmer. Hey, Ryan.

1:13:12Collin PalmerHey, Colin. How are you guys? Good to see you, man. I jumped in at a really interesting time when you were kind of in the thick of it. But, you know, in the topic of THCA and percentage points and THC percentage points, Dr. Mark, you know, I've been asked by viewers to kind of bring this up a few times, which is how important is, you know, THC percentage to, let's say, when you're buying flour versus, you know, Terpenes versus the other chemical constituents that are there.

1:13:42Collin PalmerI think for the audience, it'd be fun to kind of dive in from a science mind. How important do you believe these things are?

1:13:49DrNo, it's a great question. So I saw a presentation at the American Chemical Society meeting last week given by Yasha Khan from MCR Labs, who presented a bunch of interesting statistical data. And so, yeah, Colin, it totally makes sense. Like if you're looking at yield, you're looking basically at trichome density. So the higher your trichomes, not only the more cannabinoids, but the more terpenes you're going to have as well, right?

1:14:16DrBecause inside the trichome is both cannabinoids and terpenes. But what was really interesting is, you know, when you look at trends between sun grown versus grown indoors, I think I may have talked about this last week on Hash Church. There was that study that was done. And if you dig into like different, again, cultivation methods, there's David. Hey, Dr. David, how are you? Good to see you again.

1:14:46DrThere is correlations again between terpene profiles that you can get like from sun-grown cannabis regenerative soil. I'm looking at Josh and Kelly here. You know, the real... Thank you so much for joining us.

1:15:27DrAre you in soil? Are you in rock wool? I mean, are you completely hydro? Are you vertically stacked or are you concerned more about, you know, making sure that the plants are in the right environment to get the maximum expression of secondary metabolites? It's so cool to see the American Chemical Society and all these other places like the ASTM try to develop, you know, industrial standards for high quality production because that's exactly, you know, the fellow Harry was talking about GMP.

1:16:01DrI mean, I think ultimately GMP is going to kick in at some point and some facilities are going to be ready for that. So GMP, a big piece of that is having your quality control manual so you can know like when a batch meets product specifications and when you know it doesn't and you have to be able to bite the bullet to say, okay, that doesn't meet product specifications that may go to a lower value product.

1:16:26DrSo here's a question based on that.

1:16:30BubblemanHere's a question based on that. How much of the cannabis grown under those once again, categorical boundaries will be the best medicine versus if you could actually grow it in the way that it's like, well, you're You're not allowed to do that. You can't have like animals walking around and the sun beating down on your plants. Like this shit has to be like, you know, like 1952 Lysol disinfectant.

1:16:55BubblemanWe're just gonna kill all biome, all bacteria. Like, can you grow the better cannabis like that? Or is the better cannabis, particularly the secondary metabolites that you just mentioned and their rate of expression, Are they not the most facilitated or positively impacted by that living soil sun methodology of growing?

1:17:18DrWell, look what GW did, right? When GW had to put... A production of CBD forward to make their epidiolex, right? They used Sam's genetics, right? And figured out how to blow out entire rooms indoors, right? I don't believe GW did outdoor cultivation. No, that's not true. Everything I saw from GW is... It was a greenhouse, right? Did they do outdoor?

1:17:44SpeakerNo, no. They did outdoor. Just field. It started out as a field in England, and then they moved it to Portugal. And now they grow the CBD in a greenhouse that's attached to the largest sugar plant in Britain called British Sugar. And they grow, like, you know, in the sugar extraction process from sugar beet, there's obviously a ton of heat that's produced. And so they've piped that heat into like a 40 acre...

1:18:13SpeakerGreenhouse Complex, and they produce the CBD plants in there. I misspoke before. We had that lady on that was talking about GW and whole plant extracts, and I actually did a bit of a deep dive on this. CBD is not formulated from a whole plant extract. It's a formulation using an isolate. So all they do is they create an isolate and then they formulate using that. So it's different than Sativex in which they're using actually a whole plant extracts.

1:18:47DrRight. And Sativex is one-to-one?

1:18:52SpeakerMore or less. It's not exactly one-to-one, but it's like .97 to one or something like that.

1:18:59DrSo do they make that from the mother liquor that's generated in their process to make, or do they grow a one-to-one variety?

1:19:07SpeakerNo, they grow different type three and type ones, and then they mix them. Yeah, right. Yeah, but the CBD is actually made from an isolate. So it's, I went and looked deep into this. It's really just the pure compound mixed in with a carrier and a flavorant. Like it's a liquid carrier. So what I said before.

1:19:33DrIt could be synthetic then, right, Ryan? It could be completely synthetic?

1:19:36Collin PalmerWell, there's plant fats in there too as well, Ryan, right? No, no, no, it's an isolate.

1:19:42SpeakerIt's an isolate. So they actually just crash up the CBD and use the crystal CBD. So the point is, is that the Epidiolex formulation is not tied to a plant where Sativex is.

1:19:56Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd is it, it's a hex extraction, is that right, Ryan?

1:20:01SpeakerIt's a hexane?

1:20:02Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIs it hexane to get like an isolate like that?

1:20:06SpeakerWell, you can use a whole series of alkanes. I'm not sure. Fair enough. Fair enough.

1:20:13DrI think they figured out how to do this with limonene. Shout out to our dearly departed friend, Horatio, right? So they figured out how to use limonene. And that's if you see organic CBD isolate, because you can't have organic CBD come in contact with things like hydrocarbons, like pentane. So I think they figured out how to do this with limonene or maybe pinene or some other terpene.

1:20:44DrAnd that's so-called organic CBD isolate, which you can see sells for a premium over regular isolate. Interesting.

1:20:55Collin PalmerDr. Mark, you know, and Marcus too, you know, bringing up the idea of medium, you know, I know through my journey as a young guy trying to figure all this out, I was indoctrinated into organic farming and then learned this other world of traditional ag through that. And then now I'm Thank you so much for joining us.

1:21:31Collin PalmerYou know, through your process and develop, like you said, IP around how you're going to move from stage to stage from propagation all the way through to your end flowering stage and testing the soil, testing the cell, you know, the plants, different parts of the plants to understand, you know, perhaps what the microbial load might look like towards the end of the finishing cycle. But You know, through the experience of doing this, I will say, and Josh and Kelly, you know, you've been a major inspiration in terms of the commercial side of this for me.

1:22:02Collin PalmerYou know, it's something that we have a lot of work to do with policy because, as I said, it's very fearful, you know, that to go all this way and then all of a sudden say you can't sell this thing, you know, and that's, to me, it feels... It feels like we have a lot of work to do in that realm because policy doesn't match up with what the plant needs and the product factually is a better end product.

1:22:30Collin PalmerYour bioassay usually tells all, you know, yeah, testing is great, but, you know, put your face in that bag, smoke it, enjoy it. It really tells a different story than other mediums that I know others in this group have grown in. And I think you can concur with that, that there's a broader Stronger profile that comes from the end result that we're all chasing. So how do you think we moved towards a better world like that, Mark, like in terms of policy and testing?

1:23:02Collin PalmerWell, you mean like compliance testing, like sending like COAs, you know, the past Regulus testing and see, you know, see a few counts and things that are really founded on also fear, right? Like a lot of this stuff is is founded on fear. I mean, it's not there's there's not a whole lot of data if we're really honest about it, you know.

1:23:23DrYeah, I mean, you know, this, this lab shopping phenomenon that's happening right now is that, you know, there are some labs that are failing samples. I know this is a really profound problem in Massachusetts, Trader. They're getting some labs that are basically failing samples for You know, high counts of Aspergillus and E. Coli and in other labs who are letting those samples go and passing them, giving high THCA scores.

1:23:54DrSo which, which lab do you think the producer is going to use, right? So, Yeah, it's really difficult. Again, if you're using PCR, so PCR stands for polymerase chain reaction, and what you're doing is you're just identifying fragments of DNA. It doesn't really say whether you have an active infection or not that can actually affect the consumer and the other thing is that like this whole thing about mycotoxins you know mycotoxins are the product of bacteria and fungi that are basically antibiotics that are exuded from these organizms Thank you for watching.

1:24:34DrSee you next time.

1:24:53DrThank you for watching.

1:25:17DrJust because they occur in other produce doesn't mean that they're going to occur in cannabis, right? And I've asked experts, again, it says, do we really understand what the mycotoxin profile is from organizms that live on cannabis? And what is the toxicity levels? I mean, for a lot of these compounds, I mean, some of these things are kind of like, Their carbohydrates and their sugars are not necessarily the kind of things you would look at and say, well, that's a toxic molecule.

1:25:50DrBut it's people's immune response that creates the toxicity. And it's that thing called cytokine storm, which is part of the Thank you for joining us.

1:26:29DrBut it's so weird to think that, again, just because they occur on peanuts, that somehow they're going to also occur on cannabis. So I think there could be mycotoxins on cannabis. And David, we talked at length about cannabis hypermesis syndrome, which, you know, there's a lot of controversy over. There's a lot of controversy on whether or not That's a natural response in your body. You know, a lot of there's been a lot of literature to understand why cannabis actually attenuates nausea.

1:27:08DrAnd certainly what Mishulam showed is that he could administer sublingual doses of THC below the psychoactive level and completely block Nausea that's associated with chemotherapy in kids. I mean, this has been published now for like almost 30 years. It's been out there. The difficult thing is like with a lot of responses in the body, there's something called a biphasic result. And in a biphasic thing is that, yes, what controls nausea is some type of set of receptors in your body that's causing your muscles to contract and causing you to basically empty the contents of your stomach.

1:27:57DrThat can be basically a dose response curve where you could look at, you know, very smaller doses can control nausea, but at very, very high doses, you get this biphasic inversion where now you're on the other side of the seesaw, and now you're actually promoting that response in your body. There's a lot that's not known about what causes that, whether or not it's a sensitivity in certain patients.

1:28:27DrAnd again, Dr. Dave and I had talked about this in length the other night. We want to have a journal club on it so we can talk about all the published studies that are out there. I think we can lay it to rest that it has something to do with neem oil. I know that that was Thank you for joining us.

1:29:05DrAll cannabis use is medical. Dr. David said it in his little YouTube blurb. There is no such thing as recreational cannabis. It's getting into our bodies. It's protecting the fatty tissues of our body from free radical mediated damage. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:29:39DrBrad Baird, Cannabis and Cannabinoids actually promote nerve cell growth. So there's so many things that we still need to figure out. And that's one of the reasons why we're really pissed about this NIH shutdown, because there's all kinds of work that the NIH was doing that's really important to understanding How cannabinoids work and how we can incorporate it into a modern pharmacopeia and hopefully things like, you know, the CanMed conference and the ACS conference.

1:30:08DrThese will all be things that can start winning over medical doctors so they realize that there's another option. Then prescribing some FDA approved drug, which has all these other side effects.

1:30:21SpeakerYou gotta, I think we gotta be careful when we keep saying that. I mean, I'm just saying there's unintended consequences. When we say all uses medicinal, then all cannabis is a medicine. And that's when you start getting all the crazy regulations, right? Like the European, European Pharmacopeia has all this stuff about like The level of contamination that's required for inhaled medicines, right? Like meaning inhaled powders like those asthma type drugs.

1:30:51SpeakerAnd you're never going to get cannabis to be that sterile, right? Without e-beam. Go ahead. Yeah, so it's just, I think we got to be wary of the double-edged sword that is when we start saying that all use is medicinal.

1:31:10Collin PalmerIt's a really good perspective, Ryan. I mean, it's interesting because it's a very cautious perspective. I also, I don't think there's any wrong here, just my two cents. I think Dr. Mark's intention here is to say that, hey, you're repairing, you know, you're repairing your body, you know, and I think that is honest at its very base. But I, you know, something Dr. Mark said, the GMP stuff in our industry in the United States is here, you know, my lab is CGMP compliant and we had to go through audits and Right SOPs and standard operators, you know, all the things that we had to do to get that up to, you know, to where that needs to be.

1:31:46Collin PalmerBut we have, you know, there's a long way to go in terms of what that looks like and the governing body behind looking at those products that you're creating under the CGMP, you know, guidelines, you know, because there really isn't any. I mean, we have this certification, but who's coming and checking, right? That's the other thing to talk about here.

1:32:05SpeakerYeah, well, there's so many things to like unravel in that whole thing. I mean, We started, Canada did the same thing. We were like, you know, they were like, oh yeah, you're claiming that it's medicine. No problem. We're going to train it as regulations. Now the bar is set so high that you have all these things to meet. And look, you can produce absolute garbage cannabis that patches, that passes GMP requirements.

1:32:30SpeakerRight. So it's like, just because like you have a COA that says it's passed and it's safe, it doesn't mean that it's good weed. Right. Or resin or whatever it is. It's like there's a difference between quality as measured by a COA and quality as measured by a head. Right. They're not the same thing.

1:32:47BubblemanThey're distant cousins.

1:32:49Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThere's also, you know, GM eyebrows. There you go. The GMP standard is for post-harvest as well, just to be clear for the people listening and stuff. GMP is post-harvest. And then GACP is the standard for the growing and the collecting, the agricultural and the collecting practice of it. So as farmers and farms move forward and they want to look towards the international market. Thank you. The beginning part of it is a GACP standard, and then it's becoming GMP or EU GMP because the EU GMP standard is more stringent than just the GMP standard.

1:33:38Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo it kind of does bottleneck what you can make as a product and how you can grow as well. So I would say, Colin, that the goal through education, as I mentioned before, is trying to figure out ways that maybe that's through case studies or You know, Ryan and everyone here, David and Mark, everyone's involved on the scientific and the research aspect of it. But I think it's just going to be a continued educational need to bring forward organics and show how organics or herbs in soil makes sense.

1:34:14Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWhy does nettles make sense in soil? That type of interaction between soil feeding the plant and its cannabinoids, you know, it's kind of, Thank you for joining us today.

1:34:43Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineChris Baird, CFO, CFO, CFO, CFO, CFO, CFO,

1:35:03BubblemanWell, we're going to have to figure it out because right now there's big gaps. There are these massive gaps in the fact that like, well, the best medicine is probably grown on like a regenerative farm. It's like, no, we have to grow the medicine in a sterile environment where it's like, okay, so there's a gap. I know Dr. David Allen has explained to me there's a massive gap in what, like, even when you mentioned him earlier, Dr. Mark, and the fact that like, here's this renowned surgeon who operated on people's hearts and saved many, many, many lives.

1:35:33BubblemanAnd has an understanding on what the endocannabinoid signaling system is and how it functions in the body. How much of a gap is there in regards to even doctors having any real understanding? We're talking about the science of it and all the universities and doing all these different studies and doing all of this, but there's such a massive gap on the other side where They don't seem to want to know about it.

1:36:01BubblemanAnd I'm sure it's part of the reason you got ostracized so hard, Dr. Allen, because that you were willing to kind of be a voice for this.

1:36:16BubblemanNothing? Nothing to say? Nothing to say?

1:36:19SpeakerOh, you're talking to me? Yeah. You're talking to me? Hey, yeah.

1:36:23DrYeah, you're talking to me, man. Let me just add one thing. I think it's cool to think that GW did it. Other companies can do it. I mean, maybe that's the boldest lesson that we learned from GW is that this medicine can be pharmaceuticalized. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:36:58Etienne FontanWell, Marinol did exist, though, you know, it was there. It just turns out it wasn't what we wanted, right? Those of us who tried it realized, yeah, they could do that. But what you say also, Dr. Mark, is also the double-edged sword of people talking about Schedule 3, is that pharmaceuticals have had the access to this plant and to make things for years, and they haven't. And what they've made, we didn't like.

1:37:24Etienne FontanThank you so much for joining us.

1:37:49Etienne FontanCost about $2 billion, right? So in 10 years. So yeah, I don't think they're really that interested, honestly. So that's why the rest of us are doing this, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, Doc.

1:38:02SpeakerI have a solution. Oh, go ahead.

1:38:09SpeakerWell, I had a nice talk with Fred Gardner the other day. And he used to publish the Ashanasi paper on cannabis. And I've also had discussions with Mary Lynn Mathery with Patients Out of Time. And, you know, this is all about turf. And so everybody's trying to hide their turf. So So every separate entity like plumbing or cabinet making or anything, they try to hide their information of what they do.

1:38:50SpeakerSo everybody can't do it. And so it's a turf battle. So everybody's trying to make money off this turf. And, and Really, it's not medically acceptable because it's not being taught to the physicians. And so Fred Gardner said, and I think he's exactly right, one of the major obstacles to cannabis science is it's not being taught to medical doctors and veterinarians. So I recognized this when I was in Sacramento and we called 157 medical schools in the United States.

1:39:36SpeakerAnd we found out who the director of the curriculum was and asked them if they were teaching the science to the doctors that were graduating that year. And the answer was only 13% of medical college, medical universities in the United States even mentioned the Endocannabinoid signaling system. And nobody had an organized course or anything else. And so really, the major obstacle to cannabis being advanced as a science is because it's not being taught to medical doctors and probably veterinarians.

1:40:20SpeakerBut actually, I think probably veterinarians may be Maybe more advanced than doctors in this science. And the propaganda in the science is so bad that it affects the language that the people speak about it. So even Dr. Mishulam, the saint of cannabis science, was afraid to say cannabis. And so the endo, The cannabinoid system became the endocannabinoid system. And it's cannabis, it's not cannabis. So the propaganda is so strong.

1:41:08SpeakerSo I would recommend that we gather a bunch of interns together and start a study And call all the medical schools in Canada and United States and South America and everywhere else we target and see if the doctors or the veterinarians are teaching this new science to the doctors or not. And then once we get the information, anybody that helped gather this information would be Their name would be put on a article that we would print about the results of who is teaching and who is not teaching this critical science of homeostasis.

1:41:54SpeakerAnd so you could put your name on a. A article that's going to be groundbreaking is going to make history. You could become part of history. By putting your name on a article regarding who is teaching this science and who's not. So that's what I'd like to do. And, you know, I think that this conversation is going to be coming even more into the international standards because The German pharmacists now have access to this.

1:42:35SpeakerThe German pharmacists are the ones that are going to be purchasing that already are doing the massive purchases for Germany as well as for all of Europe. And I just think that I could ask you all a question of what happens when the Germans get a hold of something and then start realizing Thank you so much for joining us.

1:43:19SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today. We're so excited to have conversations with pharmacists. They're asking all of the

1:43:46SpeakerThe capability to sort of meld these systems together, whether it's GMAP, GM, GMP, I can't even, I know.

1:43:55Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIMC, GAP for Israel and Visa.

1:44:00BubblemanLMNOP?

1:44:01SpeakerYeah, I can't remember.

1:44:03Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineICBC, what do you have?

1:44:06SpeakerI feel like I'm writing them all day, but I can't even remember them.

1:44:08Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt's a lot to learn. The API is another big important thing for the European market as far as the pharmaceutical aspect of the plant.

1:44:19SpeakerAnd this mainstreaming and this idea of mainstreaming cannabinoids, mainstreaming terpenes, the conversation is already going into, well, if we have this blend of terpenes, then we're going to be seeing these certain Thank you so much for joining us.

1:45:05SpeakerSo I feel like it may start to come full circle. We're talking about how it became recreational. It was really ruined. Well, none of the doctors, none of the pharmacists, none of the scientists really wanted to know what we were starting to recognize and know about. And maybe now with this European market opening up, they are going to want to know that. They were afraid.

1:45:30Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThey were afraid. And now they want to run everything on a COA and they want to make all purchases based off the COA, which in some cases talk about just not even having a strain name. Really, all you have is a cannabinoid profile and a terpene profile.

1:45:47SpeakerAnd then that's going to help with sleep. And then they're going to want to, you know, they're already talking about making these categories of really basic things. We've got a lot of people that have been in the plant for years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years.

1:46:19Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineCBD hemp and then bringing it to a laboratory and adding synthetic. And I hope, Ryan, you have something to say about this. And then adding synthetic cannabinoids and terpenes to that hemp and then selling it all over Europe. If we're honest with ourselves, we're we're taking we're moving into an area where Europe is going to actually be able to buy from farms in the world right now.

1:46:44Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThey're going to start to buy from Canada, hopefully from the US and other places in the world. But they're going to be, you know, replacing, you know, Thank you for joining us.

1:47:09Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt's been proven, you know, in the lab that it's safe for you. And then they can say, oh, well, this is going to uplift you and this is sleepy. And, you know, we can decide as a community what type of medicine we're looking for when we go, you know, to buy that medicine at the store.

1:47:24SpeakerBy simply spraying the indoor hemp flowers. Pretty unbelievable.

1:47:31Collin PalmerWell, the thing that I hear a lot here is perhaps maybe two things.

1:47:36BubblemanSorry, I'm sorry. Sorry, Colin. That's my bad. Etienne had his hand up. Oh, sorry, man. Please hold your thought. Etienne, you go ahead. No, that was my bad not mentioning it earlier. Go ahead, Etienne.

1:47:46Etienne FontanI just wanted to clarify something that just happened today is that along what Dr. Allen was saying, today the American College of Physicians actually put out a best practice advice for marijuana use in chronic non-cancer pain. So, yeah, there is actual, you know, besides, of course, the American Nurse Association now having a book on teaching today. So I just put that link into the chat there in the YouTube and it's in the chat here.

1:48:19Etienne FontanThank you so much for joining us.

1:48:45Etienne FontanScience and now these doctors are pointing other doctors in the understanding of the direction of that education. It's not everything we needed, but it's a small step, but it's a big step.

1:48:58SpeakerIt's a big step. And you know, I've, my best friend actually is, got her master's in cannabis pharmacology. So she can now be, what she did with me, with my chronic pain, right? She can prescribe things and help people. And I think that it's so awesome, you know, as a chronic pain sufferer who without this plant, I would not be sitting here. I will tell you, I mean, I think I've told this story before, but I'll say it again.

1:49:27SpeakerYou know, I was on over 200 milligrams of Oxy a day, and that was prescribed by a doctor. And I thought I was doing everything right for myself, right? And then I found my new pain doctor, and he's like, well, what do you need? And I'm like, listen, man, I need help. I'm in pain, and nothing's helping. And You know, I commentate on swimming. So I would commentate on the race.

1:49:50SpeakerI would do the replay. And then we would go to do the interview. And I couldn't remember why I'm talking to this person who I'm interviewing. I had no idea. So I told him, I said, my life has to change. And I'm so thankful that he told me that Oxy doesn't even help the nerve pain that I have. It actually makes it worse. And he, along with my best friend, suggested I try cannabis.

1:50:13SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

1:50:35SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:50:53SpeakerI would say even quicker than that because it will save a lot of lives. As I said before, it saved my life because, you know, if I got off meds and I didn't have anything else to help me, I would have had that dream of hitting a pole as fast as I could come to fruition. So I just want to say thank you to all of you that I've had the opportunity to talk to before but that are really moving this forward.

1:51:16SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here.

1:51:41SpeakerRight? I love a Sherlock and this is great, but you know what this has taught me is that when I go into my Puffco Peak Pro, I don't put water in it anymore. I don't like the water filtration for the taste of those terpenes that we're talking about, right? And I think everyone's taught like, oh no, you're supposed to put your terps through water. Oh, puppy dog.

1:52:04SpeakerI don't put mine because mine was really enjoying his bed for the first hour and a half of of the pod. So it's blurred.

1:52:13BubblemanThat's hilarious. Go ahead, Colin. You had your hand up.

1:52:16Collin PalmerYeah. So you kind of reinforced, you know, what my what I was going to say earlier is, you know, it sounds to me there's really two things here is a system which is based on education and trust. Trust is the number one thing I see and I recognize that is broken all the time. You go and you're like, I need help. And then you go and you get something and you're like, yes, that was great.

1:52:43Collin PalmerAnd then you go and try to find it again and you're just confused all over again, right? So I think that's in the medical field, you don't have that because you have pharma dealing with monomolecular, in some cases, other things that they've spent a lot of time, In a lot of cases, you know, collecting data, sometimes making up the data, whatever you want to call it, to get this place of trust, right?

1:53:06Collin PalmerTo say, hey, we went through these trials and now we can bring this to someone and we have some trust here to talk about. So I think that's the hardest part for us because it's such a complex world of chemistry, looking at Dr. Mark, that, you know, we... We often forget that it sounds very simple to us because we're so in it, but it's very complex to the most simple mind.

1:53:33Collin PalmerSo I think that has to start with real vernaculars of how do we talk about things? What are those things you're talking about? You know, Kelly brought up buckets. I feel like buckets can be really dangerous. You know, like it's sleep, it's energy, it's creativity. It's, you know, and these, there's pharma, pharmacology is looking for these human, very human things, you know, going to psychology, it's very human to want to know.

1:54:00Collin PalmerBut we just don't know. And that's the, you know, that's, that's where the trust, you lose the trust. Why? You don't know. How am I supposed to trust that? So these are the things, you know, you know, asking you about the THC, high THC percentages. I truly understand that they don't truly matter. And I think that it's, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:54:40Collin PalmerAnd a brand is in cannabis in any world is a performance over time. And it's a promise, right? And that promise is a performance you do consistently and make good on that promise to that consumer or whatever it is. And in agriculture, you know, to everyone's point earlier, it's very difficult to standardize something that is so, you know, so loose. So going back to these two things, education and trust, I often find, you know, Myself looking at these two things and I just I wonder, you know, David, Dr. David Allen, you know, in the medical field and Dr. Mark, are these, you know, backroom conversations happening to find the best way to talk about wellness and how that drives, you know, a patient and what that means for a patient?

1:55:31Collin PalmerYou know, are they truly thinking in these ways or are they nervous about the lack of education and lack of trust?

1:55:41SpeakerI don't know how to exactly answer that question. You know, doctors are fearful of losing their DEA license to prescribe medicines, which is a federal license. And you can't deal in a federally banned substance and have a DEA license. So doctors are afraid to even talk about this subject. And many times the patients Because, you know, you use cannabis and it helps you and you know for sure this stuff works, but the doctors don't.

1:56:18SpeakerAnd so the enthusiastic patient goes to the medicine doctor and says, well, what do you think doc? And he doesn't have any basis to even make a comment on that. And as we all know, medicine doctors know everything and do nothing and surgeons know nothing and do everything. And so many times the patients know much more than the doctors do about this subject. And so the way to get around that is to teach doctors this subject.

1:56:57SpeakerAnd so that's going to come in the future. And I would like to be a part of that to change this where this is not a taboo subject.

1:57:12SpeakerBecause this is a taboo science right now. And why is it so taboo? I mean, you know, it's again, I know that it's the scheduling and things like that. But with all of the studies and everything that has been put out, why do you guys think it is still so taboo?

1:57:31Etienne FontanOh, it was very simple because the DEA went directly into the medical schools and threatened and basically harassed and scared. Goes so back, Amy, back in the mid-30s, they made sure I have actual testimonial from doctors in medical school in the 30s where they were told it was a mandatory day of class to bring your book in. And when they arrived in class, there was an FBN agent at the front of the class, which basically told them to turn to pages this through this and to now rip them out of their books and then pass that forward and then removed that information from the classroom, literally classroom by classroom.

1:58:18Etienne FontanAnd then the VA and the DEA basically... uh threatened the fda and anybody else that ever tried to play with it and then of course they set such onerous um laws to have that access to do that funding and really only let the university of mississippi there at the research triangle and dr ossoli play with it Thank you for watching.

1:58:59Etienne FontanAnd the public doesn't want Dr. O'Sulley's, you know, suppositories in the end. So unfortunately, it's fear, it's intimidation. And because as the doctor said, there's no training for understanding and the fear of losing your license, right? Which is everything for you to practice as a doctor. Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:59:44Etienne FontanIt's another step towards normalcy, but we're not there yet, and this administration's not going to be friendly.

1:59:51Ryan Dank AfATN, I just have to point out that you said Dr. Elso Lee's suppositories in the end, which I thought was very...

2:00:00Etienne FontanI do puns. I can't help it. My father was a blind lawyer, so I learned to play with words a lot as a kid.

2:00:06SpeakerATN, you're outing yourself as an original gangster by knowing the term for the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, the FBN, which was the precursor to what we have now, the DEA.

2:00:26Etienne FontanHistory, it matters. Nomenclature and understanding of when, you know, the FBN became the DEA is also, you know, they continued to rule cannabis until just recently. My group, Veterans Action Council, through a FOIA request uncovered A paper that's specifically around doctors being able to talk to veterans about medical cannabis. And that was updated again in 2023. So through our FOIA request, we were able to find the most recent paper that previously listed the DEA as the people in charge of cannabis.

2:01:05Etienne FontanBut this new recent directive, which adds CBD and hemp, Now gives directive to the FDA. And it leads to a page with the FDA's complete and utter how to create a cannabis medicine from beginning to end. So, yeah, the government has set up ways for pharmacies and pharmaceuticals to go this direction. And unfortunately took a Freedom of Information Act request to, you know, cull that data, but it's happening.

2:01:41Collin PalmerThe interesting thing for me is like, you know, states like Connecticut, where I was doing a project with a friend of mine where I was trying to get cannabis-diverged terpenes into the state. And we went through basically a pharmaceutical lens to do it. I had to send him SDS sheets, all the tests, all this ton of stuff. Yet here we are talking about all of this, all these problems with the crossover, right?

2:02:03Collin PalmerBut somehow they have their nose in little bits and pieces of our industry, right? It's really fascinating to me. And I guess Dr. David Allen and Dr. Mark, is there a country or a place that you could call the safe haven of research? Does that even exist in terms of freely being able to do this work without any consequence? Israel and Spain are the two leading people.

2:02:35DrOn the chemistry side, there's a lot of work going on in Italy. And I think there always has been a lot of work going on in Switzerland. But Italy, I'm amazed at how much work is going on these days. We had at the American Chemical Society meeting last week in San Diego, a whole session. And it was mostly all Italian people. Authors from Italian universities and colleges presenting work.

2:03:08DrAnd yeah, I mean, just fascinating stuff to see them making connections between genetics and therapeutic treatments, everything from Alzheimer's to behavioral issues like PTSD. So it seems like the Italians have really embraced Research. We were doing well here in the United States until this recent shutdown of the NIH. We actually have a group in the NIH looking at non-traditional, what are they called, complementary medicines or something like that.

2:03:53DrBut I made contact with the deputy director there. His name is David Shurtleff. And what he assured me, I actually met him at the ICRS meeting in Toronto. So his mission was, again, to go to the ICRS and to recruit researchers to tell them that it's not just NIDA funded research anymore. So Muscle Schedule is looking at this. The Center for, you know, So there's centers within the NIH that look at various things.

2:04:30DrSo there's like a center that looks at the brain. There's a center that looks at the circulatory system. There's a center that looks at bones and musculoskeletal. So if you look at NIH.gov, And you do a search on cannabinoids, you'll see that the NIH until recently was spending a lot of money looking at not just the NIDA funded things that, oh, cannabis could have harm and what, You know, how can we couch a study not really, you know, looking at the benefits of cannabis, but looking at what cannabis does in terms of its impact socially and its impact nutritionally on the body.

2:05:16DrYou know, more NIDA stuff has been transitioned over to, you know, the other institutes. And, you know, I also, I don't know if I had mentioned this last week, Marcus, but I met Professor El Soleil For the first time, just a week or so ago. And he was such a kind person. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:06:03DrSo he knows that, you know, yes, when you're having, you know, the American Chemical Society and National Cancer Institute seriously look at the therapeutic aspects of what cannabis can do to help patients, you know that, yeah, there's definitely, you know, things that we can say now about the cannabis plant and what cannabinoids can do that we couldn't just say just a handful of years ago. I think the most notable study that I've seen recently, again, was looking at isolates versus whole plant extracts.

2:06:41DrAnd we already know the punchline here, which is whole plant extracts are more effective That kind of turns the whole FDA model around because taking a single active ingredient through clinical trials doesn't really reap the benefits of full spectrum medicine. And so I think the FDA has even recognized that they need a different regulatory process to be able to regulate They could have easily put this out as a dietary supplement.

2:07:14DrAnd when Charlotte's Web, I think a couple of years ago now, tried to petition them to do it, they got pushed back. I don't know, maybe with RFK in there now, they should try that again because it seems like RFK is kind of leaning towards, you know, nutritional supplements. I'm not saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing, but maybe it's worth teeing up that argument again.

2:07:37DrBut getting it to the point where exactly what ATN was talking about, which is that, you know, by getting this out now, so physicians could actually see there are best practices that's not coming from some Cheech and Chong movie, but it's actually other doctors. That actually realized that, okay, here's the American College of Physicians, right? These people all are in it to see how cannabis can benefit their patients.

2:08:13DrAnd I think it's really beholden. Back to, like Dr. Allen said, the medical schools to recognize that this is something that they're going to have to deal with in their practice as a doctor, right? Patients are going to come into their office and doctors have the option, say, well, okay, they have some kind of like chronic pain or acute pain. I could prescribe an opiate or I could say, hey, open up the dialogue with the patient.

2:08:44DrAre you a cannabis user? Have you ever seen where maybe your use of cannabis deadens pain? Maybe not acute pain like a stubbed toe, but maybe something like post-surgical pain, which is more of a chronic pain. And could you actually replace synthetic opiates with all of their Thank you so much for joining us.

2:09:23DrOr Ryan, I'm sorry, you had the discussion that all cannabis use is medical. Well, again, if it makes the patient feel better and the patient could now eat and the patient could now sleep and maybe enjoy a little bit more of their day. To me, it totally makes sense. Oh, it makes sense.

2:09:45BubblemanIt's just that what he was saying was that it creates the idea on the other side. Well, it's why Shopper's Drug Mart literally was like, well, we have to be the ones to dispense this. If this is a medicine, we're the dispensers of that medicine. So I think that's what you were saying. Am I correct, Ryan?

2:10:00Ryan Dank AfWell, no. What I was saying is that nobody's denying therapeutic use or medicinal use. That's obviously a thing. But there are people that are not using it for that purpose, or at least they're not using it for like a diagnosed purpose. You could make the argument that they're using it for some psychological purpose.

2:10:17SpeakerI'd like to add something to that.

2:10:23SpeakerYou know, I used to call, there's a study that if you block the CB1 receptors, that the sperm does not go into the ovum. So conception does not occur If you blocked the CB1 receptor, and I used to call cannabis a metabolic essential, but it's even more than that. It's a metabolic imperative. And I developed that word. And because it's because this, they try to divide and conquer thing.

2:11:02SpeakerAnd so they have Recreational and medicinal use. But both of those terms are propaganda because it's more than just medicine. Because I've been trying to prove that cannabis has medical efficacy my whole life. And it's more than that. It's something that should be in our in the diets of all humans and animals. It's more than just just a medicine. It's something that should be in our food.

2:11:35SpeakerSo that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

2:11:40BubblemanAppreciate the perspective. And you have a unique perspective. You know, you have all of that sort of scientific background and all of those, even the few that we did in regards to the heart muscle that had like died away because it didn't have access to cannabinoids versus the one that did and how much less dead tissue there was and how healthier it was. It's definitely interesting. To say the least.

2:12:06BubblemanI think it's semantics as well. I like the way Dr. David Allen just called it propaganda. I'd never actually heard recreational and medical use of cannabis called propaganda, but it did have a ring of truth to it when he said it. I always appreciate everyone's perspectives. I love just the pathways we go down. Amy did have her hand up when Mark Sheldon was speaking. So take us back, Amy, and please, the floor is yours.

2:12:35SpeakerWell, so I do have a question, though, for you guys. I had been told that different terpenes can affect people differently. So if that is the case, how can medical regulation happen? You know, to me, it seems confusing, and I'm wondering if maybe that's what's stopping the momentum.

2:12:57Etienne FontanThat's a conundrum that I have with a lot of patients, especially a lot of new patients, Amy. They're like, hi, I've got stage four cancer. Can you now point me to the breast cancer marijuana? And this is when we have to have the serious talk of, I'm sorry, that doesn't exist in the sense because it's all subjective. So you and I can have the same condition, but what works for you won't work for me and vice versa.

2:13:21Etienne FontanIt just has to do with our body biome, right? Our metabolism. So the unfortunate thing is we have to teach people on how to, the same way that you go through the same trial and error with finding the drug that works for whatever condition you have that you're using currently, it's the same sort of situation where we teach people to get a journal, You're going to now document everything you try, how you felt before, how you felt during, and how you felt after so that you can come back and see what works.

2:13:53Etienne FontanThen when you find what works, then now if you're in a state or in particular you try to find that terpene profile and find similar terpene profiles for when that Original profile you're looking for, unfortunately, isn't in stock, which is a common problem that we find, because as we are all stating, we all want that pharmaceutical even access, right? I want my same Big Mac here that I get in California on New York, just as an example, not saying go eat Big Macs, people.

2:14:23Etienne FontanHowever, we can't do that, unfortunately, chemically, biochemically with cannabis because we could have a reaction to a certain type of terpene or terpene profile, right? So this is the trial and error in reality that we all face. And I think you've hit the nail on the head, Amy, is this is the regulatory problem because it is one already so complex, it can't be regulated, right? And now it's completely subjective, which starts, which something a patient does not want to hear.

2:14:53Etienne FontanThey want to hear, they want the same comfortability that, oh, well, you're going to get this thing at this dosage and this is how, and it's going to work for you. And they do not want to hear this doesn't work for me and this isn't going to work. And now you have to go try hundreds of different types of cannabis to now find what potentially works for you.

2:15:13Etienne FontanRyan.

2:15:14Ryan Dank AfThat's why we created the Fido Facts. Right, because it was a way of creating cannabinoid profiles and terpene profiles and making a visual, like a visual cue so that people could understand. It was all based on colors and you could just, you know, you could just look at the page and the information would essentially be seeping into your brain on which time you liked. And you're totally right.

2:15:38Ryan Dank AfLike, it's kind of, it extends on what Marcus was saying earlier. Cannabis isn't one thing. Right. It's one plant that produces a bunch of different flowers that are all different. And each of those things have different effects. So, you know, it's funny. I was talking with someone that was over here. It might even have been Josh and Kelly. But I think it's in the German, the German medical system.

2:16:02Ryan Dank AfYou go to your doctor and he prescribes you an actual plant. Like it's the doctor that tells you which type of weed you're getting. You don't have the freedom to go and choose different types. And if you want to change it, you have to go back to the doctor and he'll write you a new script.

2:16:19Ryan Dank AfSo it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like this whole thing taken too far. People need to, again, cannabis is not plutonium. None of it is so dangerous that you're going to hurt yourself. If you, especially if you're, you know, smoking the flower. I think if you're making extracts or taking large doses of even of the edibles, which are, you know, arguably the safer, more therapeutic delivery system, you can really overdo your dose.

2:16:47Ryan Dank AfRight. So it's I think the most important thing is when people should be people start talking about.

2:16:55Ryan Dank AfDose and and how to how to consume and then really you give them suggestions on which type is the best um you know is are they do they need a type two like a mixed CBD or THC plant I think that's definitely a good start for people that are new consumers because you've got that CBD buffer and a lower THC content obviously you got the type three plants That are, and you know, the 3V plants, what we call 3Vs, the propyl plants with varins, all that stuff is good for children with epilepsy.

2:17:31Ryan Dank AfSo you can kind of start categorizing these things. And that was really what we did was create the Fido Facts lab report format that SC Lab now uses as a way for bud tenders to be able to explain to new people what was what, right? And obviously it's perfectly good for more experienced consumers. But yeah, I'd love to see that become a more used type of tool because, you know, you talk about COAs, we say COAs, COAs are not all created equal.

2:18:03Ryan Dank AfAnd it's really not easy to Um, be able to look at a lab report. There's nothing but rows of words and numbers and actually determine what those numbers mean. Like, how do you know what the terpene profile is? Right. And the way that we develop for Fido facts, using this colored graph system, you not only get to see the prominence of whatever terpene, but also the quantity of that terpene with respect to the other terpenes in the mix.

2:18:33Ryan Dank AfSo you can really start getting an idea what the flower is like before you've even seen it.

2:18:40BubblemanVery interesting. Craig has his hand up.

2:18:45SpeakerYeah, I just wanted to loop Johnny in on this conversation because one thing that we always talk about in our realm here in Humboldt County and, you know, we're such stewards of the land and sun grown and the terpene profiles that are just coming to the forefront with extremely high levels of terpenes. Like we personally have an OG at market that's at 4% terpenes and our, you know, another cultivar that's over 4% terpenes.

2:19:13SpeakerAnd that all speaks to our growing practices, but the labs are only testing for such like this, you know, this many terpenes, like minuscule amount. And I know Johnny was part of a Columbia University study around a broader spectrum of terpenes. And maybe Johnny, you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about that study you were in.

2:19:40SpeakerSure. Thanks, Craig. Hey, my name is Johnny Casale. I'm with Huckleberry Farms. And, you know, you know, Craig's, in my opinion, is exactly right, especially here in California. You know, we're dealing with labs that test for a certain amount of terpene. So it's really hard to. To listen when we're talking about percentages of terpenes, whether or not it be high or low, because if the labs that are testing for the terpenes are not testing for the ones that are unique genetics have in them, you know, the consumer will never really truly know.

2:20:17SpeakerAnd either will the cultivator. So it wasn't until maybe four or five years ago when... The head chemist from Columbia University, Colin Knuckles, reached out to me via email and said that he had purchased from Cornerstone Collective in LA a jar of our signature strain, White Thorn Rose. And he said, you know, he had noticed that it only said, you know, 1.5 or 1.2% terpenes.

2:20:51SpeakerAnd so he started to do a study himself, which then led to him actually purchasing a bunch of standards and doing his own investigation through or through, I'm not sure exactly through Columbia University or how that actually worked. But he finally figured out that, you know, White Thorn Rose was more like 5% terpenes had Over 60 different terpenes in the California labs at best, maybe test for 20 to 30 different terpenes.

2:21:26SpeakerSo discovered a whole bunch of terpenes that White Thorn Rose had. And then also found out that it had 444 different cannabinoids. And so he and I together reached out to quite a few of the labs in California and tried to understand why they didn't test for all the different terpenes or as many as they could possibly test for, especially when it comes to sun-grown cannabis. I think it benefits...

2:21:59SpeakerThose cultivators a lot more than ones that are growing commercialized strains indoors. You know, it would benefit us a lot more to know that we had 50 different terpenes, but I think part of the restriction from my understanding was that each different standard for terpenes, you know, cost those labs nearly $20,000. So to have, you know, 60 different terpenes would cost them significantly more, especially if the state's not requiring them to test for that.

2:22:31SpeakerSo I just found it pretty interesting and was relieved in a weird way to find out that White Thorn Rose specifically had More than 1.5% terpenes because like a lot of us cultivators say, you know, the nose knows and, you know, when you crack the jar and you can smell that pungent smell of fruits and stuff, it was hard for me to believe that there was only that few of terpenes that existed.

2:23:01SpeakerSo anyways, yeah, that's kind of what I got, Craig.

2:23:06BubblemanThat's super interesting, man. Like, holy shit. There it is right in a nutshell. That, uh... People are putting so much time and energy into the perception of a COA that it's going to decide so much for them. And the COA is still not, and that's just talking about the terpenes. There are all sorts of other vox that are present in there that are not being perceived or sort of explained to the end user, the patient or the customer.

2:23:39BubblemanUpwards, what did you say you were at? You were at, yeah, go ahead, please.

2:23:44SpeakerSorry, but you know, along those same lines, and there was a couple cultivars like Amalfi that we had that was like 43% THC. And you know, he, he said BS on that too. And You know basically I could probably get any number I wanted from a lab in California you know if I pursued or experimented around with the right one because these are the labs that are also competing with each other right so if I continue to get lower THC scores that is so important for the retail stores to have on that jar I just go to another one and so It behooves a lab to give those cultivators or those distributors higher THC scores because then they'll come back the next time.

2:24:32SpeakerAnd if I'm paying $500 for a COA test, you know, it's very profitable for, and I won't name any labs, but, and along the same lines, it's really bothersome to me to watch all these different contests that, that My myself are entering, you know, even like the California State Fair that really relying on COA tests to dictate or determine the best of California, the best of the best.

2:25:02SpeakerIt's like sometimes we choose to put weight and value on these COA tests and other times, you know, we're shit talking them. And it's just like, if they're no good, they're just no good. And that's it. So let's scrap them and throw them away. And, you know, yeah, I don't know.

2:25:22Collin PalmerWell, I think what you're touching on for me really rings true. There was a person I had a conversation with the other day that was looking at flour that we have, and it's close to 29% in total tack. And they looked at me and said, you know, I'm really 35% right now, and I don't think this would work for me. right and and when you when you hear those things you know you can't look at someone and say they're you know because that's their world you know they they believe that that is a real statement you know and however you wouldn't go to the wine shop and ask for 99 proof you'd be like oh well here's your small bottle everclear i guess you could take that home and make something with it i suppose but there's a beautiful world of of color and volcanic soil and all this other stuff that And I think, you know, THC percent, it's, you know, I've asked this a few times throughout the show today, you know, it's, it doesn't seem like there's a real great conversation to have with someone that believes those things because there's so much color and so much, you know, chemistry to talk about with that consumer that it just goes over their head.

2:26:30Collin PalmerSo I think, you know, high tech really, quite frankly, in my eyes really doesn't mean much without high terpene levels or, you know, You know, all the other chemical constituents that make what we all know, great cannabis, great cannabis. And to your point of the lack of assays to test for these individual components that make up the totality of the weight of, let's say, the terpene profile or panel, we just have a really long way to go.

2:26:58Collin PalmerAnd I think that's why COAs or COA as you're calling it, is a really difficult and dangerous way to look at buying cannabis overall. You know, and I know, Dr. Mark, you know, you've said many times in the show, well, if you have the right protocols and you're cleaning your instrumentation right, you should be pretty close, right? But if you sent out 30 samples to 30 labs, you would get 30 different results.

2:27:23Collin PalmerAnd I wonder, why is that? Is that because of the things that you always mention? But it seems like seaways are really dangerous as Huckleberry Farms said so eloquently.

2:27:38DrI think a couple of things has to do with the method, you know, the actual sample prep method that they do in creating the sample that they actually run by HPLC. But hey, Johnny, shout out. I actually, I covered the molecules paper from 2023 that Colin Knuckles had published Thank you for watching.

2:28:29DrFirst of all, I think I'm just looking at the abstract right here. They're saying there is a significantly greater amount of oxidized and degraded cannabinoids in the indoor samples as opposed to the outdoor samples. So I found that to be interesting, right? You'd think there'd be more oxidation outside than a controlled environment inside. But then the other thing that I found was really, you know, quite significant.

2:28:56DrAnd I don't know that I've seen this before. is that the outdoor samples had the unusual cannabinoids and and it says here in the abstract the c4 and c6 thca so i take it what that is is the um the substituent on the three ring of thc supposed to have a five carbon tail but what you guys observed here was that There was a significant amount of the four carbon and six carbon tails.

2:29:28DrI think if I scroll down and look at the amounts, I mean, when I say significant, I mean, they're probably in there just a fraction of percentage, but that's really unusual. I mean, I haven't seen that. And again, this speaks to the conundrum that I think most testing labs are faced with. And I had this discussion with Professor El Soli at the ACS meeting, which is that, you know, the lack of certified reference materials can hinder the ability to quantify all the material that's in there.

2:30:06DrAnd so here's an academic lab at Columbia. They probably have state-of-the-art instrumentation. I would assume they would. So they're able to discern that there's some of the C4 material Thank you for joining us.

2:30:33DrAnd a terpene portion of the molecule to make those just like THCP is being synthesized. THCP having the seven carbon tails, but these have the six and four carbon tails. So super interesting that they observe those. And again, I guess that accounts for some of that unknown fraction. So if you add up All the cannabinoids that you're testing for in your COA and you add up all the terpenes, there's still some unknown amount of other stuff.

2:31:03DrSo this falls into that bucket of part of the unknown other stuff. So yeah, real cool and very interesting study. I think it's counterintuitive. Thank you for joining us today.

2:31:33DrYeah, really interesting thing to observe, you know, the correlation between terpenes. We said earlier in the episode that, you know, your trichome density is related to the potency, which is also related to the overall amount of terpenes. But exactly what terpenes are being expressed, and I think what you guys found is the outdoor samples had Greater preponderance of the sesquiterpenes like alpha-humulin and beta-caryophyllene were the monoterps were more prevalent indoors.

2:32:06DrSo certainly things that are, I guess, influenced by how these plants are grown. But I just want to let you know that I previewed your paper and yeah, it's nice to meet you here on Hash Church.

2:32:19SpeakerYeah, right on, Mark. That's pretty cool to hear. And, you know, Colin was the brains behind all of that and put it all together. He was pretty gracious to put our names, mine and Tina's, from Moonmade Farms on the paper. But we really just gave him the cannabis and he did all the science behind it. But, you know, not to linger on the COA test that I'm so down on, but, you know...

2:32:49SpeakerA lot of these tests are just, you know, past the state co-op Um, standard, right? And then they end up on the shelves and then the state inspection agency goes through and they find out that there's aspergillus or they find heavy metals or whatever. You know, to me, the question then becomes if I'm a company that just paid $500 to one of these labs that has now been discovered by the state regulatory board to be dirty for aspergillus.

2:33:20SpeakerWho's really liable? I mean, if the labs are, you know, if I'm paying the labs to test and pass my product, and then even to really bypass a lot of that, I mean, if we find that our product's dirty for aspergillus and you can retest it, which you can't legally retest it, but if you do retest it, 99% of the time, it then passes. So, you know, from one bud to the next bud to the next bud, you're going to get different test results.

2:33:50SpeakerSo, to me, none of it really means anything, but yet they're pushing so hard to have you test it, to say, see, look, it's good to go. I don't know. I'm just babbling now. Sorry.

2:34:06BubblemanRyan had his hand up.

2:34:08SpeakerYeah, I think it's crazy to say that COAs are bad. I mean, it's information, right? Information is neither good nor bad. It's what you do with the information. And how you're trying to squeeze it into a context or a picture really is what it's about. And we put a lot of effort into creating that, the final facts. I'm going to actually share it again, Marcus. I don't know if it's still sharing.

2:34:36BubblemanOh, it's been sharing the whole time.

2:34:37SpeakerYeah, I just wanted to kind of go over it. So it was like, you know, people know what I'm talking about.

2:34:45SpeakerEssentially, we tried to put as much information as we could into a lab report so that you could look at a piece of paper and absorb the information through pictures rather than having to try and figure out, you know, like, obviously, the first thing that everybody does is they go, what's the total number of cannabinoids? Or what's the total, the THC contest content? And for these plants, it's kind of irrelevant because we were specifically breeding for CBD content in plants or creating lines that had specific CBD contents.

2:35:17SpeakerBut what I wanted to show was the terpenes, right? And so you can kind of, you can immediately see just by looking at these two bar graphs that they're different, right? And once you start to know which terpenes are which in the color wheel, you can kind of start to memorize these patterns that you see over and over again.

2:35:39SpeakerSo, you know, this type of information, if it's presented that way to the consumer, it can be really useful, right? It's just that when we start to try to take information and use it for like, you know, regulatory purposes and we set, you know, we set levels or bars that people have to reach for the plant to be compliant. You know, obviously people are gonna, people are always gonna try to break the rules, right?

2:36:07SpeakerThey're gonna try to manipulate test results to their own benefit for financial purposes or whatever they're doing, right? Whereas like, We didn't really have that thought process when we were looking at these plants. We were trying to create a system where you could develop, you know, you could provide information to consumers, right? And you can kind of see, like, you know, for this one, this is limonene, linalool, and beta-caryophyllene are the top three.

2:36:37SpeakerBut if you look at the top of the graph, we have the three colors that match the top three terpenes in the graph, right? So even if you're not actually actively looking at this terpene graph down at the bottom, say you're a new user, you might learn, oh yeah, I like the ones that are yellow, purple, and blue and not the ones that are like, you know, You know, red, red and green.

2:37:01SpeakerThis is like red is mere search, terpenylene and bottom line kind of purple one is mere scene. So the point is, is the information is always kind of subtly being planted into the person, into the mind of the person that's looking at the graph. Right. And we also, the other thing that we, sorry, let me go up and find the right graph. The other thing that we found this was really useful for is, like, this was for breeding plants that were the same terpene profile but had different cannabinoid contents.

2:37:33SpeakerSo this one here on the right is, I think this one on the right, yeah, is all THC. And the one on the left is a type 3 plant. So it's all CBD. And then this middle one is a mixed one-to-one plant. But they all have, you can see by the graphs, the color graphs on the bottom, they all have that same terpene profile, right? Brian, can I ask you a question about the graph?

2:37:57SpeakerShoot. So if White Thorn Roads, whoops, excuse me, one of my cultivars is the most prevalent terpene in there, according to Columbia University, is Selenodyne. How would that come up in this graph and what would that look like for the consumer?

2:38:21SpeakerIt's not on this one. Yeah, so they don't test for that one. So what I'm saying is... It's not that we don't test for it. It's there's a secondary report. At a certain point in time, you have to draw a limit on what information you can present, right? At least when you're doing a graphical representation. And I, so just for, you know, to be clear, I haven't worked with this company in like, I don't know, eight years or something like that, nine years.

2:38:48SpeakerBut I would be having, in my format, I would have a place where you could actually write little highlights or you'd be able to present little highlights about the cultivar that were unique. So, yeah, so a plant that was like really high in selenidine. Did you say it was the dominant terpene?

2:39:10SpeakerIt's somewhere, you know, it's not the most dominant, but it's number two or three.

2:39:18DrIn the outdoor plot, yeah, if you look down at that paper that we posted the link to in the chat, you'll see, yeah, there's a graph down at the bottom, graph number B, yeah, and Selena Dying, which again, Johnny, I've I've never even seen a testing lab test for that, let alone... Oh no, we test for it.

2:39:40SpeakerIt's just not shown. We only show the top 17 in this graph. But you're testing for well over 40 or 50. Have you ever seen that as a predominant terpene, Ryan?

2:39:52DrI never have either.

2:39:53SpeakerI was going to comment.

2:39:57SpeakerIt's really rare to be up that high. That's why I was asking. It's really rare to be high up in that levels. But it would be interesting to have a complete VOC breakdown. And that's what I was going to say is that like, you know, on my ideal format, an evolution of this, I would have a little box where you're, you know, you can say, oh, this plant is high in a specific ester or a specific thiol, or like you said, it's an unusual terpene.

2:40:23SpeakerAnd that's what makes it interesting. Yeah, and you know, just because I was very fortunate to have Colin find me and reach out to me and have that access to Columbia University, I'm saying probably 95, if not more percent of all the farmers that are growing these unique genetics don't even know what, you know, cannabinoids or terpenes they have because of the, at least the system California has in place.

2:40:49SpeakerAnd it's just really, to me, very unfortunate. Yeah, well, yeah, and it's funny because you have a system that comes in with regulations, and then you have these commercial entities, or not only the lab commercial entities, but also the growers, right, that are all trying to use the laboratory to manipulate the system or the regulations for their own financial benefit, right? And it's a lot different from labs that are really, like, trying to get to the, you know, like...

2:41:19SpeakerI don't know. I almost think you'd be better off to break it up into multiple lab tests. You have one lab that does the scent, and then you have a compliance lab that does the pass-fail stuff for microbials and fungi and all that kind of stuff, totally yeast and molds. Yeah, that's a great idea.

2:41:40DrSelenodyne is a very interesting molecule because it almost looks like valensine to me, which is, again, very fragrant like the skin of an orange. But when you look at this molecule, Ryan, it's got two double bonds. It's a sesquiterpene too. And the other interesting aspect in this paper, and I think we touched on this earlier, is that the outdoors were more enriched with sesquiterpenes. And so this is a sesqui.

2:42:09DrBut if you look at the double bonds there, yeah, you have two double bonds. So there could be multiple isomers. I think just off the top of my head, I could see probably like about 20 different isomers of that molecule. So that complicates things even more because if that isomerizes either on standing or on heating, you're going to have a completely different peak in your GC.

2:42:36Collin PalmerAnd Ryan, you know, from a bioassay point of view, the moment I tried this and I'm not blowing smoke towards anyone, it is just, it's some of the best, if not the best profile in that realm of candy gas and, you know, floral that I've ever actually experienced. I mean, it was... For me, it was that good. And I've been smoking cannabis as long as anyone here, right?

2:43:00Collin PalmerYour whole life. And when these unique things come out through just trying it without seeing a COA, they really speak to you in really unique ways. And as Mark said, the concentrate of it is slightly different than the flower, but they both resemble each other. But the concentrate... It leaves you with this long-lasting burn in your palate that is like an everlasting gobstopper. It's really unique.

2:43:33SpeakerIf you want to figure out the inheritance of it, you reach out to me and let's figure some stuff out. I'd love to help you do some crosses and see if we can make some interesting scent profiles out of it. That's an interesting puzzle piece and it would be really interesting to understand how Whatever gene is responsible for that compound and is inherited and can it express with other terpene profiles?

2:43:58SpeakerLike, can you blend it or is it, you know, is it a set like cassette as I call it?

2:44:03DrOh, no, there's a synthase here. I'll put a link in the chat.

2:44:07SpeakerI know there's a synthase, but that's not just how easy it is. When it comes to breeding and you mix these things, just because a plant has a synthase doesn't mean that it's going to express them. But we can figure that stuff all out through a series of crosses and experimental matings. So if you want to really figure out if you can improve that plant, contact me and let's figure it out.

2:44:32SpeakerYeah, we'll probably release that, those genetics here next year. So keep an eye out. I'll let everybody know. Well, I'll definitely buy some for sure. Are you making selfs of it or are you only making hybrids of it? I just have, you know, a mother plant of it. We're just going to do the feminized seeds of it. And I'm growing them this summer just to make sure they're real similar.

2:44:58SpeakerAnd, you know, I will use the the co-attest to see how closely related to the mother plant it is. But did you cross that plant to itself or did you make hybrids out of it? Like you crossed it to something else?

2:45:14SpeakerI just feminized it right back to the mother plant. Oh, excellent. So their self's perfect. I definitely want some of those. Yeah. I'll buy like a hundred of them. Cool, cool. Yeah, we'll hook you up. We're just trying to figure out the right path forward, right? So if this unique genetic is kind of enabled our small farm to survive California's oversaturation of the market, Like I want to release it.

2:45:41SpeakerI want to let everybody experiment around and we're doing some hybrid. We're crossing it to other genetics that we have. As far as back to itself, we haven't done that yet until we're saying next year or so. Yeah, we'll make sure you get some. Thank you. I'm interested in all of them in pretty not huge amounts, but enough to understand you growing them and figuring out the inheritance pattern of it.

2:46:06BubblemanI would also add to that for Johnny that you should absolutely reach out to Ryan, a.k.a. Chimera, outside of Hash Church, because There's just a real wealth of knowledge and information in his head that could absolutely benefit you and your farm. He's gone, but I still finished.

2:46:33SpeakerAnd he's a really nice man, Brian Lee.

2:46:37BubblemanThank you, guys. Yes, Wade. Thanks for coming on, Wade. Love to see you, brother.

2:46:44DrHey, Traynor had his hand up. Traynor, do you have something to say, buddy?

2:46:49SpeakerOh, hey, it was it was pretty much covered, but I just wanted to, you know, reaffirm it. It kind of plays to the, you know, the difference of the what we were talking about earlier with the, you know, the pharmaceutical model, how they just want, you know, single compounds so it can be so it can be. You know, isolated and formulated in such a way that it's entirely repeatable every time versus, you know, the nuances that we all understand and know of the individual plants.

2:47:21SpeakerAnd, you know, I'm hoping that, you know, with the development of, you know, lab testing and COAs that we can actually potentially merge those closer together as, you know, we can more fully understand what compounds are in these plants. I know, The COAs aren't, they give us a good picture, but it seems like, you know, they're incomplete as far as different terpenes, different cannabinoids, what lab you use plays a huge, huge impact.

2:47:50SpeakerAnd, you know, it's, again, with the pharmaceutical versus, you know, traditional, I think it is, it's, what I'm hearing is that it's the people who have these deep knowledge of cannabis are able to really provide A higher level of, you know, service to their patients, which just speaks to I hope that, you know, we're still in the future are able to move into a model where we can still have, you know, this direct to consumer from, you know, the cultivator or the procurer Someone who has a deeper knowledge to be able to help out these patients and not just have it as a one-size-fits-all, one-to-one CBD, THC pill, which also speaks to, like we were saying, the education that's so critical, be it for a bud tender or for a doctor.

2:48:42BubblemanYeah, you know, it's like the script needs to be flipped. And I think that's part of what Skunk Man Sam always did. He understood the mechanisms that he had to play within to get the work done that he had to do. But it was his unique aspect, his savant-esque way of being when it comes to collecting, smoking, how much he loved to be high. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:49:32BubblemanThey listened to the sommelier. And it would be wonderful if we had our own version of that in the cannabis industry that people would listen to. Go ahead, Etienne Fontaine, who has his hand up.

2:49:46Etienne FontanWell, I will lower my hand. I was going to respond to the gentleman from Huckleberry Farms. I'm sorry he left great stuff. And he brings up a great point because I am an ambassador to the California State Fair once again this year. And yeah, these are things that we're, you know, we're trying to learn how to quantify, right? Originally, they just use science. And and that was a frustration because yeah depending on what they're testing for there may be things as he stated you know may not be able to find or may not show up on the COA to make it to that final or even to that decision whereas last year they uh added um A quantifier organization called The Buttist, which they have a hundred point scale of how to test the cannabis.

2:50:38Etienne FontanAnd they took those, I guess, top three and then decided from their own personal, you know, actually Thank you for joining us.

2:51:16Etienne FontanYou know, by having, you know, something like Gangier or something like Buddist who have a system of how to quantify cannabis, but there is no dominant paradigm, right? These are both created situations that some have adopted, some haven't, some states have adopted. So there's still a... Thank you for joining us.

2:52:02Etienne FontanWhere is that happy medium? And I ask that because as an ambassador of the California State Fair, I can take this knowledge back to them and they will actively listen. So I would like to sit back and actively hear some suggestions on how they can make it better or how people would think They could best decide from a limited set of people in science what necessary constitutes cannabis that's worth awards, right?

2:52:36BubblemanWell, how about the aspect of, okay, obviously these companies, It's not within reality for companies to be able to afford multi bazillions of dollars in analytical equipment, test for hundreds of terpenes and thiols and thiolates and everything else. But it is up to the person who has it to go down that rabbit hole and find out what they have. And so if you have something special, that every record everyone recognize it's different there's something we're not perceiving in a coa perhaps you go down that pathway where you discover what it is much the way johnny did with the university of columbia uh could have been another way i'm sure there's many pathways to this but universities would probably be very unique pathway to it if you had something so unique That that everyone really, you know, noticed it when they smelled or smoked that particular plant or extract that you figure out what those things are.

2:53:31BubblemanAnd then, you know, when you go in to create your own sort of Fido fact, because I think the Fido fact is super cool. It's it would be the version 20 years down the road to be able to cover everything that could possibly be in there. But if you could find out what is responsible for these dominant, you know, aromas, And get it into there, whatever your top 12 is or whatever.

2:53:54BubblemanI suspect that that would still be better than nothing and pretty damn cool. I bet you there's a lot of people like Johnny out there who have, you know, not a lot, a handful, but still a lot on the global scale of people who have things that are just extremely special. There's something unique about them.

2:54:12SpeakerYeah, they're rare, right? They're rare. Rare. And look, nobody had really done this work. I mean, Etienne DeMeyer was the first one to publish like a very little paragraph on it in one book. And, but GW had done a whole, they'd grown a whole bunch of plants and they were obviously started looking at terpenes as well.

2:54:35SpeakerAnd the way that he was describing plants that had been dominant in a specific terpene. And so that was kind of where the work started. And then the work that we did at Napro, you know, we were classifying all these other plants, but you're only going to find within the populations that you're working with, right? And it might be that some of these rare genes through hybridization on one specific farm or one specific line, or even a mutant line, they come up and they start producing these new compounds, right?

2:55:05SpeakerAnd so I think I got to give John like the ultimate credit. Most people would take that plant and keep it. Right. And they wouldn't share it. They wouldn't sell the seeds. And I think there's a real, like, I have a lot of admiration for the fact that he's going to take it and sell it and share it with the community. Because what he does is he puts those genetic combinations back out into the world so that other people can now come along and start breeding with them and start trying to see what else they can do with it.

2:55:34SpeakerRight. And, and cannabis, we haven't been able to go through it successfully. With these same with these same time types of analytical chemical tools for it's only been like 18 years really since we even started cannabinoid testing. Right. Right. And terpenes, like, you know, when we started doing the work at Napro, like 2013, 2014, sure, people were testing for terps, but they weren't very good at it.

2:56:00SpeakerRight. And we, we, we did all these ring tests in California and we showed that certain labs had no ability to differentiate between two different terpenes or cannabinoids. So like as an industry, we're definitely still figuring it out. And how do you take that mass amount of information and present it to the consumer or the breeder in a useful way is really what it's about. And because we've been using the laboratories for things specifically like compliance and not for research, it's really shaped the way That we do do these works, right?

2:56:41SpeakerAnd you get these kind of more renegade labs like Napro or Abstracts that are out coming up with a different analytical method, right? So that they can actually try to figure out, you know, that's how the thiols were discovered. That's how some of these ester compounds were discovered, right? And that's not coming out of regulatory testing, regulatory compliance testing, right? So it's like, you know, What we learn is really only as good as the way that we go about it and what tools and how accurately we use to be able to figure these things out.

2:57:18SpeakerAnd, uh, cannabis is a remarkable species. Um, and if we keep on producing these terpene classes and, you know, we learn how to layer things, like, I mean, that's great. So, so say Selenodyne is a, uh, you know, is a dominant terpene profile that we can breed for. What about layering that with or without files or with or without certain ester compounds, right? It's when you start like juggling these, these compounds with the presence or absence of other compounds.

2:57:45SpeakerNow you're really getting into some interesting territory, right? Because you're creating all these new flavors, this whole new palette that can exist. So I think it's really good for cannabis.

2:57:57BubblemanWell, when you think of how many notes there are in music, and Mike has his hand up, he's going to be speaking right after I say this, but if you think of how many simple notes there are in music and how all music is kind of based on that, yes, Ravi Shankar was bending notes and there's some more complexities to it, but think of how many different compounds there are in regards to the terpene and terpenoid and thiol and thiolate and all of these different compounds.

2:58:22BubblemanThink of how many variations of palette there Thank you so much for joining us.

2:58:50SpeakerSo I'm, you know, I'm going through David's stuff here. And I was going through his desk the other day, just trying to clean it up and create room so that we could kind of organize things. And I found all this old, the old paperwork associated with, you know, when they were taking the THC and dabbing it with different terpenes, right? He still got all the patient with the subject score sheets or reports right there.

2:59:17BubblemanI should have one in there.

2:59:20SpeakerYeah, I didn't go through it because we've just been so busy. I just took the whole thing and put it into a folder and put it away. But it's, yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. You know, I came across a book in a desk that was a full textbook size book that was essentially this huge book on plant resins. Right. And you get like this kind of like ad hoc appreciation for David's mind where he was like, he really wanted to figure it out.

2:59:53SpeakerAnd, you know, you know him, Marcus, like I do. The reason that he was trying to figure it out is because he wanted to make it better. He wanted to be able to get more high or differently high. Right. And so he like, he really took this like full court press approach to figuring out everything he could about the plant so that he could break it down and see if he could hire the right people or breeders to make it better or stronger or different or more up because he recognized that there were all these aspects of the plant having grown so many different types and smoked so many different types that, you know, Hey, these things are all different.

3:00:34SpeakerAnd they make you feel all different. And why? Right. And that was, you know, like the early, they had the, the, the hoarder farm lab set up in the late nineties, early two thousands. And they, that's at a certain point in time, they took all the samples, somebody, they were, you know, they were in, in goods with the folks that were running the high times cannabis cup.

3:00:55SpeakerSo they take the, all the samples, all the entries from the cannabis cup and run them through the lab. And try to figure out, you know, I think the top indicator in the top sativa one year, they came back and they both had the identical cannabinoid profile. And, you know, one was a haze and one was an Afghani type thing and totally different effects. And the question was why, right?

3:01:16SpeakerWhat is it if the cannabinoids are so identical on these things, what is it about them that makes them different? And, uh, you know, that was just part of this whole journey that he was on. Anyhow, I'll shut up, but it's, it's really a beautiful thing seeing. I've come to tears a couple of times going through it because it's like, it just, it reminds me of how deep and passionate he was on all this stuff.

3:01:40SpeakerAnd, uh, absolutely. He really spent his whole life trying to figure it out and share that information. You know, I was just saying to Josh and Kelly, like the IHA, the International Health Association, that was the machine that he built to be able to disseminate this information. And all he wanted to do was learn more, grow more so he could figure more out and share it with the world.

3:02:02SpeakerI mean, he was fucking amazing guy.

3:02:05BubblemanAmen. Let's go over to Mike. He's got his hand up.

3:02:13SpeakerYeah, before I say anything, let me just say I'm very proud of the articles that I authored or co-authored in the IHA. That's definitely something I'm very proud of. And Yeah, interesting how relevant they are. I just had one of those articles pop back up because of the relevance of the subject matter. It was like a 10 year old article, 15 year old article, whatever. I have, I guess, a relatively simple question for you all, but it'll take me a minute.

3:02:43SpeakerSo bear with me while I work the sort of the context of this question. I sat at, you know, sort of David's, you know, desk there, you know, sort of like a. Almost like a 19th century, you know, journeyman, you know, to try to learn this stuff and very much the stuff that. David was doing in Netherlands and especially the stuff that the Netherlands government wound up doing initially with medical cannabis at the national level and setting up a medical cannabis bureau.

3:03:21SpeakerThat was all really formative to my work at the international level. And changing the treaty in 2020, none of that could have happened without that humble beginning. As his apprentice, if you will. And looking at that and understanding that this is my concept, it seems a little bit revolutionary in itself, because when I I told a member of the press this the other day, they were like, I've never heard anybody say that before.

3:03:44SpeakerBut what I was saying was that I didn't see any natural conflict. Between big industry and our little cannabis producers that are producing a niche crop, a craft cannabis, indigenous cannabis, medicinal cannabis, et cetera. And in fact, that those places where that type of cannabis cultivation is occurring, the innovation and stuff that's occurring, Based on ancestral origins of that information, that traditional knowledge, as well as the heritage of the genetics, that's what we were talking about last year in that Gratic Treaty.

3:04:29SpeakerIt's genetic resources, but it's also the traditional knowledge and resources within the community of how to grow it, how to get that out of that genetic material through the terroir that's available to them. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:04:59SpeakerMy feeling is that cannabis will be the source of the next big thing for the big industry, that the innovation that they come up with, the work that they do is not wasted on big industry, that they will be able to run with that information. So I guess I've always sort of assumed That at some point, the specialness of that cannabis from those areas would be sort of understood enough, at least for big industry to make a, you know, Budweiser version of it.

3:05:36SpeakerI always felt that it would fall short of the capabilities of the original material and from its original source. But I guess going back to what you were saying, Marcus, you're looking at it like wine. I guess my and this is my simple question. Not only Is it worth it to really try to unravel what makes it special when it's coming from a place that special? Would David, you know, recognize the special circumstances and origin?

3:06:05SpeakerIs it worth unraveling that? I guess, you know, I always felt it was worth unraveling it enough for industry, but is it worth unraveling it as a consumer? And in fact, my question comes down to this. Is it really a good thing for the consumer? Would it, could it possibly be a bad thing for the consumer to try to understand, you know, look at it with wine, maybe as an example, would it be bad for them to try to unravel each of the best wines and figure out why, you know, what makes it tick?

3:06:33SpeakerI remember, I forget who it was now, I guess it was Edison who was talking about the combustion engine and said that you're better off not learning everything about how the combustion engine works Thank you for watching.

3:06:56BubblemanWell, it's a good question. And it doesn't seem like a lot of the customer base cares. We've definitely gone over that many times in Hash Church over the years in the sense, I think it was Debbie Goldsberry who first put us in our place. Jeez, it might've been eight plus years ago when we were all going off in our utopian ways of what cannabis could be. She's like, I love your passion, guys.

3:07:18BubblemanI love how excited you are. But like, people just don't care. They want THC and they want... I think that's the THC part is really what plays into the sort of COA. It's all these double-edged swords that we always get ourselves into. Where something gets created in the foundation of a good idea, and then the script gets flipped, and then it uses the other edge, which is always not so nice.

3:07:45BubblemanI always use the perfect example of something like RadSource or those irradiation companies. I was talking to Sandra Calasanti, Remo's wife, the other day at the Heady Happenings, and we were talking about... You know how I was just saying how things that could be that could be beneficial if they're really, really needed to, you know, save a company that maybe, you know, grew a beautiful crop and somehow it got contaminated.

3:08:12BubblemanAnd if they don't radiate, they have to throw it away. There's nothing else they can do. I was like, oh, my God, like. Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:08:46BubblemanThe same thing that drove Dave drives all of us for some reason and so there must be some reason why we're doing it. I feel like we're being driven by these plant profiles that we all love so very much And all the good that they can do. You know, earlier I mentioned the veterans and how terrible the U.S. government has treated their veterans really probably since the beginning.

3:09:11BubblemanI'm sure Etienne could speak on it better than I could. But look how well cannabis has treated veterans. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:09:48BubblemanR. And that's why it's worth it.

3:09:56SpeakerYeah, I think it's just a matter of people not, you know, we haven't, if people knew that there was more than just THC, don't you think that they, if they had, if they had the choice of like a beautiful Selenodyne dominant plant or like a little old dominant plant, Thank you for watching.

3:10:32SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

3:10:55SpeakerBut my perspective is that it's not plutonium. It's not so dangerous that we need to have doctors standing in between people being able to walk into a store and buy any one of the top 10, you know, flowers or types of rosin on the, on the market. Right. And when we have that and everybody in the end that it's reasonably priced, There will be no need for Delta 8, right?

3:11:22SpeakerOr these crappy hemp products that you can buy at the gas stations in the States with no legalization, right? It's like we just need to get to that point. And... I think that we will have people come over to the other side, right? I don't, I don't think people will be, because why would you choose to buy the, you know, sure, if you're super broke, sure, there's always going to be people that are trying to buy the absolute cheapest thing.

3:11:53SpeakerBut I think if people had the choice, at least, hey, if it was free, what are you going to do? Are you going to choose the bad stuff? With the high THC number, you get to choose stuff that's fresh and beautiful and lovely to taste, right? I think the choice is, it's pretty obvious, you know? And having seen all sides of the story, right? And been able to walk through greenhouses and choose the nicest plants.

3:12:15SpeakerI just, I think that people would naturally fall to those products rather than buying the cheap THC content stuff, so.

3:12:26BubblemanI want to hope that you're right. And then I think of like floor sweepings, distillate and botanical turps wrapped in a fat paper with thick glue. And it's the number one product in everyone's market worldwide. And it hurts my soul. It's because it's cheap.

3:13:01Etienne FontanIs Michael a veteran? He's an Air Force veteran who unfortunately sustained injuries in Guam, which sidelined his career. Michael is a legend among us veterans. He actually created what I was talking about earlier, working with the VA. He changed the VA system, the Veterans Health Administrative System. With that Health Directive 1315, he worked behind the scenes to make that happen. That allows, since 2010, that allows a veteran to discuss with their physician regarding medical cannabis without losing their benefits.

3:13:39Etienne FontanJust want to shout out, not only does Michael know as a veteran, we hold him in high regards and his work at the UN was actually blessed by Dennis Perrone and Jack Herrera back in 1997. So he's been doing the good work and he has been my guide and teacher at the UN for the last five years. So I just want to give out a shout out to Michael for his hard work, just in case y'all who are watching don't realize who he is and what he has done.

3:14:09Etienne FontanHe is St. Michael in a lot of our eyes. So, you know, just saying.

3:14:15SpeakerThanks. Perfect set. Let me let me do say one thing. I'm stuck in this conversation more than I am in myself. Pardon me for that. But it really is fascinating to me because I think you're you're you're not you're right and you're wrong, Marcus. I don't I I see the two universes as operating without conflict. It doesn't mean that I see them as equals. The number of customers out there to Debbie's credit that don't care is Thank you so much for joining us.

3:15:12SpeakerSo, yeah, I don't know. But, you know, back to something earlier you said, Marcus, the whole and, you know, bringing it up as, you know, as a propaganda or doctor friend. I totally agree with that. I've been really fascinated with those aspects of our culture, of our cannabis culture that are sort of, Thank you for joining us.

3:16:00SpeakerLet me just say that. And, you know, I just find it fascinating that we're still trying to shake that. And I think the THC number is definitely one of those things that looking at cannabis in the store and buying it based on its THC number is most definitely one of those things that will shed after prohibition that was given to us by prohibition. But I don't see that transition very clearly.

3:16:21SpeakerThat's why I love these conversations, because we are in that transition right now. We just met with a whole... The THC number wasn't given to us in Prohibition. It was given to us after Prohibition, right? Like, we didn't have access to the labs until Prohibition was over. Before Prohibition, we were sticking our nose in a bag, right? And that was how we identified good weed. It was only the labs that started really in 2007 in the States.

3:16:50SpeakerSo, yeah, the idea that we had to chase high THC numbers, that existed before. I would go back to the DEA. The DEA at first, as I understand it, did batch testing in the 1970s based on who they thought was supplying the best weed, basically. Yeah, they were testing seized samples. But I know that Mel Frank, like when Carlton Turner used to run University of Mississippi, Mel Frank sent dope into him, right?

3:17:26SpeakerThat was because if you look at his, what is it, the Indoor Grower's Guide, there's this time plot of when to harvest THC based on these samples. And it was based on these samples that he took, harvested the plant over the course of a day, and then sent all those samples into Carlton Turner. And they used that to, he kind of used that as an idea of, well, this is when you should be harvesting.

3:17:52SpeakerAnd of course it was the inter-sample variability that was the issue. It wasn't the time of day, but yeah, like there was a time where, you know, the people that were working under the DEA license, they also wanted to figure it out. Right. And the DEA ended up trying to take, it was, it all became about how can we, again, we're going back to data. How can we take this data and manipulate it for our own purposes?

3:18:17SpeakerRight. And they wanted to show that like cannabis became more dangerous over time. Right. So it's weird. It's like, but it is this theme that we keep running into today. It's like, is there a really good data or bad data? Or is it just like the interpretation of that data? Right. And how it's manipulated and used for whatever agenda. Um, so yeah, you know, 35%, 20%, I don't care.

3:18:48SpeakerIt doesn't really make that much of a difference to me. Um, And the reality is that there's only certain terpene profiles that really test above 30s. You don't find a lot of certain terpene profiles. You'll never find a pining dominant. I mean, not never. You don't currently find a pining dominant terpene profile that's over 30%. With breeding, of course, we'll get there over time. But I think it's interesting to just realize that we're still at this point in time where we're still collecting these terpene profiles and these new ones are popping up all the time.

3:19:27SpeakerI think that's amazing. And I just want to see all that stuff spread around all the world to all the markets. Because, you know, you go to Spanibus and you see, you know, I saw Kelly and Josh were over here and they're trying to figure it out in Europe and how they can get their stuff into the European market. And you meet people like Lorenzo. Terps Army or, you know, people from Spain, people from all these different countries trying to figure it out.

3:19:55SpeakerAnd it's not that they're trying to become, you know, the Breaking Bad top, you know, Walter White of cannabis. It's that they're trying to bring something that they love to their people. And I think the fact that there's, you know, people are smoking this THC hemp flower or THC acids, you know, THCA cannabis, whatever they want to call it, produced under hemp license. It's just because they don't have an option, right?

3:20:22SpeakerAnd if they did have the option, I think, and I put that on us, right? It's like, sure, we're having problems with production, but it's like the real problem is that we're not teaching the masses well. The people that know, like the people in this room, Right, the people that are in the know. We haven't been able to share that knowledge with everybody yet. And over time, we'll be able to.

3:20:43SpeakerBut that's why these talks are so important because it's like, you know, it's like you got to get people like Lorenzo and, you know, the folks from Italy and the folks from all these different countries and share that because they have the passion, right? You just have to give them the tools to be able to teach the masses.

3:21:05Collin PalmerYeah, Ryan, you know, I was a part of a study with the last company I worked with. We did a really long-term study on THC percentage, and we brought in actual patients to do this. And we collected data on samples that were 20% and samples that were labeled at 32%. We let them, you know, go between the two. And every single person that tried the 32%, Thought that it was the 18 or the, you know, the 20% and those, and that person also thought the 20% was the 32%.

3:21:38Collin PalmerSo to your point, and I'll, I'll share, I'll share the data with you, Ryan. It's really fascinating. And Dr. Mark, you might find this really interesting because they're, they're just, you know, these are real people that we did this with. And, you know, the ratio, right? The ratio is overwhelmingly different. The 20% was really what they preferred. And they thought it was actually higher in THC. It was also because there's higher terpene values and it tasted better and it was just better herb.

3:22:13Collin PalmerEven though they both equally were on paper great samples. And they were all controlled from the same batches. So it was just really interesting to see that. And I can now openly talk about it because it's... It's, you know, we wanted to understand this because it was, you know, we all kept going back and forth. So we decided to do this study.

3:22:31DrWas it flour or flour and hash or concentrates or?

3:22:36Collin PalmerWe did flour. And that's what we did as the control. That was it.

3:22:44SpeakerWe just did this loosely around the Hall of Flowers. I wasn't there personally, but the Buddists hosted a Blue Dream event. So everyone brought their Blue Dream. And we grew two Blue Dreams last year. One I call the Arcata Blue Dream, which came out of the Arcata... You know, a grow house era of 215. It was like, you know, widely produced out of the Arcata area. And then I also grew the Santa Cruz Blue Dream that I've grown that for years.

3:23:17SpeakerAnd I'm growing it again this year. Santa Cruz this year tested at 32%. The Arcata tested at 18%.

3:23:25SpeakerAnd the big support and the big flavor was in the blueberry forward flavor of the Arcata Blue Dream coming in at 18%. And for me, I don't enjoy even, I enjoy the Arcata Blue Dream much more. The Santa Cruz Blue Dream takes me to a place that I'm not always ready to go. It's really, you know, makes my body pulse and I want to come out of my skin, so to speak, and gives me cold sweats, which is fine at times, but not when you're on a, you know, a nice walk with your dog.

3:24:06SpeakerYou more so want the Arcata Blue Dream. So it's just interesting hearing that being validated over and again. This was flower. Yeah.

3:24:15DrYeah. So it wouldn't be interesting though, like, so if you're a hash consumer, I mean, is there a big difference? Because, you know, you would assume that, again, especially if you're doing a full melt product, that it's just going to be, it's like a completely different effluent that's entering your lungs than if you're smoking flour, right? And certainly, like all the, you know, I don't care. I mean, I do both.

3:24:46DrRight. And certainly like with flower to me, it's just a more like when you draw a hit on a nice fatty and it's fresh weed. I mean, there's nothing better than that. But really, I mean, when you if you take the hash from the same flower and I've been lucky to be close enough to the growers to be able to do that. It's almost a completely different experience, right?

3:25:13DrI mean, don't you guys who consume concentrates and flour, it's almost like night and day. I wouldn't say that I see a very, like if I were to take that Blue Dream that you were just talking about and try like a dab concentrate of that, I'd probably feel the same. But like, especially with sour and the gassier ones, the ones maybe with sulfur, you know, predominant, like the sulfides and whatnot, So the gassy ones, like when I take a dab, sometimes I need to fucking sit down, man.

3:25:46DrIt's like you're so overwhelmed by that entourage effect. And I'm sure that THC percentage has a lot to do with it. But when you smoke like a fatty of the same like sour, it's just a completely different experience, at least in my body. I mean, I experienced them two very, very different experiences, even if they do have the same, you know, secondary metabolite profile.

3:26:13Collin PalmerYeah, no, it's interesting, you know, it's like Jerry, you know, he spent his whole career in the Mixalodian and Dorian scales, right?

3:26:21DrYeah, Garcia, you mean?

3:26:23Collin PalmerYeah, yeah, but that's like, to me, he created the hybrid.

3:26:26DrOne of my favorite subjects.

3:26:27Collin PalmerRight? And this is, here's my analogy here, and to genetics, it's, You know, having these really bright, bright colors in the sativa world, if we're even going to use that as an analogy or this world of equatorial lines, you know, you have the Linnean scale, you know, it's and that's like really bright and ethereal and has this like amazing feeling to it. And, you know, you can you can add.

3:26:53Collin PalmerAll of these, you know, the genomic aspects of crossing two parents together for an outcross, and Ryan, I think you'll appreciate this analogy. It's really, to your point earlier, to Huckleberry Farms, to identify and really go after... Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:27:33Collin PalmerThese inherent aspects of the nuance on the subject matter in itself, why something is doing what it does, but it takes all these studies for us to bring it out. And over time, I think we'll have a better vernacular to talk about it, such as the 18% versus the 32%. And I think that's where...

3:27:55Collin PalmerYou know, Dr. Mark, with the Mixalodian scale and the Dorian scale, it's, you know, we have an opportunity to kind of bring these things together and kind of cross-pollinate in that way.

3:28:06DrYeah, that's why it's interesting to compare concentrate because as soon as you're concentrating, you know, like in trainer's hash, this is like 65, 70%. So, The whole percentage thing is kind of out the window because you're basically, oh, is that the motor breath there, trainer? Oh, you're on mute, buddy.

3:28:33Collin PalmerBeautiful, right?

3:28:34DrChemdog. Oh, that's a Chemdog. Okay. So like, like Chem, yeah, Chem and Sour, I think I'm really particularly sensitive to. Like the gas, you know, again, with a good full melt hash, it's like, whoa, it's just a completely different experience than say smoking flour.

3:28:55Collin PalmerI judged a Chem and Sour competition the last two weeks. Actually, three weeks. I think you'd appreciate this, Mark. And, you know, like all the cuts were submitted, all these, it was a hybrid section. So you got to see a lot of different guests. And it was just really interesting to see the diversity within those lines. But the chems really We're, we're grown, you know, chem's a little easier to grow than sour, you know, in terms of getting it to express everything you want to see from that profile.

3:29:28Collin PalmerBut it's, you know, like you said, it's like, there's so much diversity within these lines, but it all ends up being salt, really sulfur, super gassy, super, just like deep notes of, you I've just real like really skunk. Like when I open this, I have this big bag that I kind of put all the samples in. That's a large turt block to kind of save all the the, you know, save everything to, you know, so it has preservation to it and just smells really sulfury and really skunky, but sweet and has all this complexity to it.

3:30:01Collin PalmerIt's I don't know, there's really it's fascinating that these are bag seeds, you know, a lot of these these varieties. You know, like Ryan, you know, I'm sure you've grown all these these chems. Like, it's amazing what Mother Nature just provided us, you know, and we've just kind of all the work and line work we do and try to try to do. Then we have these it's like these things that we just cherish.

3:30:28Collin PalmerYou know, it's kind of it's amazing to me. You know, it really is. It's amazing to me that we're keeping these historical lines alive.

3:30:38SpeakerYeah, they all need to be selfed. In my opinion, everything needs to be selfed. It's funny because people were so against even just the feminized seed hybrid process. But selfing plants is what teaches us about how these traits are inherited. Because it's like you're not taking the orange juice and mixing it with quick chocolate syrup. It's like you're able to keep these things pure. And when you keep them pure and without the influences of outside genes, then you can actually figure out what are the switches that are going on within that one plant, right, that leads to the outcome.

3:31:18SpeakerAnd once you understand that, then the next step is, hey, can we incorporate this through a hybrid? Or is it something like when we make the hybrid that the original trade is lost?

3:31:32SpeakerYou know, and how do we figure about getting it back in? So there's so much that we're going to be able to do with this plant. I mean, I think of the chemical and flavor diversity that we have already and to have come this far based on luck and just happenstance through crossing with, you know, people, sure. They're trying to do good work, but it's like, it's really just smashing two plants together and see what the outcome is.

3:31:57SpeakerUm, and. You know, when we take all the things that we found, these unique things, and we start trying to figure out how to put them back together, how do they, you know, how does that mechanism of inheritance happen? We're going to be able to do a lot.

3:32:14DrBingo Lombardi beat me to it. Bong rip, guys.

3:32:19BubblemanI want to do a bong rip. Oh, should we try some of this papaya bang bang? Yes.

3:32:29Etienne FontanYes, you should. That's what we should try. Why not? Why? Why?

3:32:37BubblemanDamn. God damn the pusher, man.

3:32:47BubblemanWell, let us not forget what brings us to Ryan.

3:32:50Collin PalmerI have a question on the on the FEMS. You know, I've been You know, growing a lot of femmes and I see a lot of different things come out of them. It's good and bad, you know. Do you believe that you're able to see some of the parent traits? Is that what we're really truly looking at? Or are we still looking at sort of a... Sort of an F1.

3:33:16Collin PalmerLike, how do you, how do you perceive a self to them to be in terms of, of, you know, genomics?

3:33:25SpeakerWell, that's what, that's, I mean, look, every plant has two genomes, right? One genome from dad, one genome from mom. And those genomes are comprised of, call it 10 individual parts, right? Chromosomes one through 10. So when you self a plant, you're letting all of those potential recombinations come back. Okay, so what you're really doing is you're seeing how true breeding the plant is. If the plant is relatively true breeding, the type or the, you know, whatever the traits are that we're looking at that make the plant desirable, they come back in the offspring.

3:34:04SpeakerBut when the plant is a hybrid and you self it, you get 50% of the plants are the hybrid type, but the 225% for every trait are the parental type. So you can actually recover all these traits All of these forms that are related to what the parent was like, right? So that's why I always say it's so important to self is because you're actually getting to see, hey, is this trait that we have in the plant that we found that is special, does it come back in the next generation?

3:34:39SpeakerAnd if so, how often, right? Is it coming back in all the plants? Is it only coming back in like 10% of the plants? Does it disappear? Because what happens is usually when you have one of these rare traits, like for example, let's just use the selenodyne as an example, or even limonene dominance. When you cross limonene with terpenylene, all the planets are terpenylene dominance. Right. So that limonene flavor profile is just gone or it appears to be gone.

3:35:08Ryan Dank AfRight.

3:35:09SpeakerRight. And because most people aren't taking breeding programs farther than crossing two plants together, it's like they never do the breeding steps that are necessary to recover those limonene types from the F2. Yeah. Right. Um, And again, the best way to do that is, is selfing the F1 hybrid. All right. So it's like selfing is it's not, it hasn't, it's such a standard thing to do in plant breeding.

3:35:35SpeakerAnd because cannabis has male and female plants separately and you know, for 30, 40 years, growers have thought they've come decided that no, no, you have to be crossing males to females. They've totally excluded the one breeding technique. That really, really allows you to uncover the genetic mechanisms at play that lead to the traits that we've deemed valuable. Right?

3:36:02Collin PalmerYeah. Well, I think you're... I agree with you 100%. So I... I did 10,000 FEMS. I did some Chem Dogs. I did some Sours. I did C99 times G13 times C99 and Rosetta Stone. And Rosetta Stone, to your point, is very terpenylene dominant and through the whole lot. I mean, all of it. It was just like, yeah, you saw a little bit of outliers in terms of like some candy, but it was very terpenylene dominant where the G13 C99 was like,

3:36:36Collin PalmerJust all over the place, like OG Kush smells to floral to, you know, and then the Chemdog was just, and Sours were the same thing to your point. You got to see a good spread, but the morphology was all over the place, you know? So I think the morphology was really interesting to see because plant structure wise, like it was a sea of all kinds of stuff.

3:37:02Collin PalmerSo that was the other interesting aspect that you're bringing up to me is, You know, for the viewers out there that are searching FEMS, you're, you have a great opportunity to find, you know, forever plants, you know, things that you'll want to keep in your collection.

3:37:16SpeakerYeah, but distinguish when you say FEMS, like, do you mean selfs or do you mean gynoseous hybrids?

3:37:24Collin PalmerNo, self, self seeds.

3:37:26SpeakerYeah, so that, like, I wouldn't, I think most FEMS that are on the market are not selfs, right? They're hybrids.

3:37:32Collin PalmerSo, for the listeners, let's talk about The difference, you know, because I think there's, this is a good, really good point to make just for everyone.

3:37:43SpeakerYeah. So, I mean, a self is plant A. So, look, call Chemdog crossed OG, plant A crossed plant B, right? Chemdog crossed to itself is plant A crossed with plant A. So, it's the use of silver or some, you know, I'm going to say STS, but there's other agents that you can use. Some agent to inhibit ethylene that makes genetically female plants produce staminate flowers and thus pollen.

3:38:14SpeakerAnd if you take that pollen and you apply it to the same clone that you're using to make the reversal, that's called a self, right? So the next generation we would label as S1. Um, whereas if you took like, you know, say you reversed that same chem dog plant with, with STS, you made a pretty stem and a flowers and you took that pollen and crossed it to a different plant.

3:38:41SpeakerThat's a hybrid, right? They both make feminized seeds. All the seeds of each of these crosses are all female. It's just the first type, the self plants, the seeds that come from the self plant, they give you all these clues about. The, the degree of heterozygosity or how true breeding that plant is. Whereas when you cross it to another plant, all those clues get mixed with it's like, it's, it's like mixing to, you know, how do I describe it?

3:39:15SpeakerIt's like your, your first plant is like mixing, you know, so you've got like a glass of purple or you've got a glass of blue liquid and a glass of red liquid. If you mix the two things together, you get purple. Right. And it's like, if you want, selfing the plant allows you to figure out if you can get back those red or blue types or, or do you just end up with more purple, but when you take it and you mix it then with a glass of chocolate milk.

3:39:43SpeakerRight? Like now you've really muddied up the whole picture and it's hard to understand what the contributors are. And that's what we've been doing for the last like 50 years really is everybody's just been hybridizing, hybridizing, crossing the last thing to the new thing. Right. And really what it takes doing is crossing the thing to itself and not involving. It's like, don't, you know, don't, don't take it out to party, figure out what it is first.

3:40:08SpeakerRight. And then once you figure out like how all those traits are inherited, Thank you so much for joining us.

3:40:39SpeakerYeah, it allows you to purify the colors is really what it allows you to do. It allows you to find those basic individual component puzzle pieces that when you, again, like it just, it gives you back the blue and the red glasses of liquid so that you can, again, then you can combine them and to make the purple one, right? You can't make more purple by just not having the red and the blue.

3:41:00SpeakerSo it's something allows you to, to, to recover. Thank you for joining us.

3:41:28SpeakerIt's like that stuff's a second thought to most people. That stuff is the most important shit. If you're doing agriculture, you're building plants for agriculture, you want to have these like bulletproof, uniform in size, you know, not big, tall and stretchy. Like, you know, you walk into these grow rooms some places and you see like three layers of canopy. Right, or three layers of trellis. Like, it's so ridiculous the lengths that we go to to make these plants able to perform in a production space where, you know, if we knew how the traits were inherited, then we can go about designing plants that have the right plant architecture, the right stature, the right morphology, and they also produce the plant with the desired terpene and volatile, you know, complement, and Either THC or CBD or whatever cannabinoid background we want to have it in.

3:42:24Collin PalmerRight. Yeah. And same thing with hash making, you know, you know, as you're saying, I was like, that's just how I did it with for hash making my whole forever since, you know, since the night, you know, I was always selecting towards things that would work. And, you know, that was very much architecture. You know, it was all by design. You know, you're looking at it in an objective way.

3:42:46Collin PalmerAnd I think that's what you're saying is saying, you know, like the other day, someone called me and asked me about defoliation. He's like, what day do you, it's a big commercial facility. He's like, I think we're going too hard. And I said, well, If you're defoliating, you know, super hard, you have to look at your feeding. Like, what do you guys feed? How are you feeding?

3:43:03Collin PalmerYou know, because that's that's you're taking away food. You're taking away things that are readily available, different points of access for that, you know, for the cells. So, you know, how are you replacing that? You know, too often have we you know, we've looked at this from an agricultural point of view to your point, Ryan, like We're chasing things that, you know, we're not looking inward. We're looking outward most of the time, right?

3:43:27Collin PalmerWe're not thinking and asking, hey, what do we need for this room to be successful? How many plants per table do we actually need? Do we need 99 or could we just be okay with 68 and actually growing them really well? You know, so I think those are the questions that happen often. But, you know, back to the idea of selection, you know, You can have it all.

3:43:49Collin PalmerI've seen it in terms of a plant selection. If you do the work to your point, you know, you just have to grow enough as Sam always taught and said openly to grow enough of that said varietal to select something that's worthy of keeping. And, you know, even you say it even today, you know, the number one thing Sam loved to do is kill plants, right? Rob used to say it, everybody used to say it.

3:44:15Collin PalmerAnd that's, I think, what we have to kind of get the idea of towards selection, you know, because there's a lot more sapphire than diamonds, as you've always kind of alluded to.

3:44:25SpeakerYeah, well, and we need to, like, I was talking to another one of our friends, I won't mention, he's got this interesting plant. And he's like, oh, yeah, we could do this, this. And it's like, yeah, the plant's good. It's almost there. Crossing into a whole bunch of other stuff isn't the right way to go. Selfing it and seeing if we can make it better. That's the way I look at plants.

3:44:50SpeakerI think all plants are just building blocks because we can always create something new. Even if we're not trying to take something and make something new out of it, how can we take something that exists and make it better for the things that it already is? Right. And so it's like, you know, I, I, I, I, I stand halfway in both of those worlds. David was always about 10,000 plants to get out of 10,000 plants.

3:45:15SpeakerAnd it's like, you, for some things you do, but some things, a hundred plants gets to you there. And then you get closer to the next generation, right? Like it doesn't always have to be all in one. Not everything has to be a home run, right? It's like sometimes a double happens. All of this gets you where you need to be. And then in the next generation, you get the third base of the fourth base, right?

3:45:39SpeakerYou knock it all the way home. And so, yeah, I look at these plants as like, they're all just built. I mean, all of us are just building blocks. We're only here for a limited time on this earth, right? Like, it's, you know, I had this moment a bunch of years ago. I used to have this massive library, right? And I had this thought and it was like, you know, when, who was it?

3:46:06SpeakerCortez, when he came to the new world, out of the new world, he built, he burned the ships, right? And it was like, you burn the ships, you get rid of the idea that you can, you can turn around and go back in time. You can go back home. Right. And so all the, all the sailors that were with them, they had to accept that they were, they were here in the new world.

3:46:26SpeakerAnd it was like about making a life here in the new world. And I went through that with my library. I was like, cause it was such a pain in the ass to be dragging it around from like house to house and facility to facility. And at a certain point in time, I was like keeping all these plants alive is actually stopping me from doing the breeding.

3:46:43SpeakerRight? Because I keep falling back and thinking to myself, well, I can just grow the chem again. No, you kill them. If you already have it in the self, killing the parents forces you to go down the line and make the improvements. Right? Which is, by the way, what breeders should be doing. Right? Like that's what plant breeders do in every other species is they make the plants better.

3:47:05SpeakerRight. And so always just like, I understand why people, everybody wants to have the chem dog or they want to have whatever plant it is, but that's what brings us problems like russet mites and like hop late and viride. Right. It's because we're trying to keep these plants around way longer than they should, than they're designed or they've evolved to live in the, in the environment. So, yeah, I, yeah.

3:47:32SpeakerI'd like to see more real breeding and more people just doing it with a little bit more desire to make things better rather than just to make a bunch of seeds for sale, right? Which is unfortunately the way I see the majority of the seed market these days. And it has not to any modern player. I mean, it's been like that for 25 years at least, right?

3:47:53SpeakerSo it's like selling seeds just as a commodity as an industry on its own. But, yeah, it's this far into legalization. We need to see more people that are doing things. And, you know, again, I want to give John credit again. That plant that he's got is so special and has such a unique terpene profile. I think it's amazing that he's sharing it with the world so that other people can take it and see what they can do with it as well.

3:48:20SpeakerKudos to him.

3:48:20BubblemanYou know what's weird about that plant too, Ryan? Like I'd never heard hide nor hair about that plant. And then suddenly I was in Barcelona and I was asking my partners from Maryland. I was asking my partner, Seth. You know, what, what are you guys looking for? What's the be all end all? And he starts going on. He's like, I was in California. Someone gave me a joint or something of this white thorn rose and he could, and this guy like puffs tough.

3:48:49BubblemanHe's like a, he's a legitimate smoker, smokes joints, smokes resin, never says no. We'll take three, four, five, six, seven in a row. So real hardcore puffer. And he was going on about this White Thorn Rose. And I was just like, White Thorn Rose? Like, what the hell? I've never heard of White Thorn Rose. Or if I have, maybe I heard about it, but it was like barely a blip.

3:49:10BubblemanAnd then suddenly in like 40 hours or maybe it was less,

3:49:17BubblemanJohnny was on Hash Church through Craig from Alpenglow talking about this cultivar. And then I, you know, he was talking about his mom as well and how she had this cultivar from 40 years ago and they were crossing it, Paradise Punch or whatever it was called, Paradise something. But it's just neat how small the world can operate. And I kind of had a feeling like, It had to be something special that was in the flavor profile more so than the cannabinoid profile, just the way he was, just the way he was talking about it.

3:49:50BubblemanSo, you know, what a cool thing in the end. You're right that he's, we got seeds of the cross, that pine paradise something, which was the, um, White Thorn Rose crossed with, I think it's called Paradise Punch. I think it was the one his mom had from 42 years ago. It tastes like Fruit Loops or whatever. He was on Hash Church once talking about it, but it was so weird to hear about it.

3:50:17BubblemanAnd then less than 40 plus hours later, see him on Hash Church walking at La Sangrada de Familia because he was still in Spain and, you know, talking about this cultivar. So, yeah, hopefully Hash Church can sort of pull more

3:50:32SpeakerYou know what's so funny is like a few weeks ago, or a few weeks before Spanibus, I was on a science call with ATN and Caleb Chen, and Caleb was telling us about the White Thorn Rose and how Arianne from Greenhouse had been over in California trying to get like a cross of a cross of a cross of the thing, right? So that he could bring it back to Amsterdam and do a seed line with it.

3:50:58SpeakerBut It's again, it's like, it's like when you do it that way, when you try to collect things that are across of across of across, it's like you're getting all the external genetic inputs that you don't want. Right. And every time, like, you know, you get something new from a new hybrid, you're also losing things that came from the original line. Right. You're actually diluting the original line, which is why I think it's so funny that we, you know, we take, it's like, you look at stuff.

3:51:25SpeakerYou know, all these like plants that now have the name OG in them, right? But it's like you smell them. They don't smell anything like OG, right? They're totally different terpene profiles. But somehow it's like sticking the OG moniker in front of it. Thanks for watching.

3:52:10SpeakerRight. And that's where Sam's philosophy of growing the thousands comes in. Right. It's because you actually go through every generation and you look for the plants that are truly special. And, you know, you make your progress from there. So, but I don't like the pedigree method of breeding. I don't think just because, you know, and it's like, that's what they do with, you know, like, look at the blue bloods and the humans, right?

3:52:35SpeakerLike the, the Royals, like they breed with other Royals through pedigree. Right. And look at the teeth and the ears. It's like, it's not the way to do it. Right. Inbreeding has consequences.

3:52:51DrThe reason why it's always better to get a dog that's just a mutt, like from a rescue, as opposed to going to a breeder, which basically is one of these so-called puppy mills. Yeah, well, it's the purpose, right?

3:53:06SpeakerWhat's the purpose? Are you getting a dog to be your friend? You want it to live as long as possible? Absolutely, get a mutt. yeah and right there's so many dogs that need homes as it is you know so yeah if you're hunting dogs shelters right if you're hunting ducks or you need a working dog like you need a shepherd dog because you're you're tending sheep right you need it to be doing a specific job sure go get one of those weird inbred dogs right but the dogs have also been the same thing it's like people have remember My dad had this relationship with this lady when I was young.

3:53:44SpeakerHe dated her for years and years, and she got the idea that she would have her puppy make puppies. And it was like she was a dog hack. It was like she was crossing two Shih Tzus together so she could get more Shih Tzus for sale. And that's essentially what the cannabis seed industry is. It's people that have no idea what the hell they're doing that are crossing two plants that they think came from the same family So with this dumb idea that they can reproduce the family and more importantly, make money off the name of the family, right?

3:54:16SpeakerBut that's not the way that you should be doing it. And Ryan, can I ask a question? Mark, just let me finish what I've said. The dog breeds suffer from these really severe problems now, right? Like you look at German Shepherds and they have like hip dysplasia, right? You have all these labs with hip dysplasia. It's because they've been bred by people that have no fucking clue what they're doing.

3:54:39SpeakerRight. And they're just trying to make money off of making more labs or shepherds. So sorry. Go on.

3:54:45DrNo, I was just going to ask a question. Just again, share this thought before it dies of loneliness. That's just a joke.

3:54:57DrSo like with plant, I could, I understand that model, especially for animals that are like traversing the land, but like with plants. So I'm going to ask kind of like more of like an evolutionary biology question. Would it make sense? So if, if, if like plants are taking over a certain area of geography, there is going to be a lot of self breeding, right? And so won't, Does the genetic population of that plant change if like a certain variety of a plant is constantly like reproducing with itself?

3:55:37DrLike doesn't that change the complete genetic makeup? I don't know if I'm asking the right question, but like animals are free to roam, right? But with plants and their pollen and their seeds, it's going to be localized to a geography, right? So does that make the plant more virulent because it's essentially self-crossing by natural selection?

3:56:04SpeakerNo, so they're not all, okay? So like when you listen to Dan Shook and David's... At David's first memorial in California, he was talking about the Coco de Mer, right? There's plants like Coco de Mer and cannabis that need to have males and female plants to interbreed, okay? That's called outcrossing, right? Like that's different from a plant that crosses to itself like tomato or peppers, right? So tomato and peppers, they are designed so that the pollen from one plant fertilizes itself, right?

3:56:41SpeakerAnd in cannabis, that's very unnatural, right? Because they have the sexes on opposite plants, right? And so different plants have different mating systems. And plants like cannabis that is actually, you know, cannabis has colonized six of the seven continents of the earth, right? Right? That's very difficult. And if it was a plant that was a selfer that stayed in one location, when you brought it to a new location, it wouldn't do well.

3:57:12SpeakerRight? Because it has, like, it has, it's, selfing plants have typically purged the genome of Thank you for joining us.

3:57:46SpeakerStamens and pistils on the same flower, like most flowers that you look at, they're selfers, right? So another way to look at it is like if you look at a flower, like go aside, look at your grass, you'll see all these tiny little flowers that are really small that are like, you know, a centimeter wide kind of thing. Those are typically selfers, right? Because they don't need to attract a pollinator, right?

3:58:14SpeakerSo typically plants that are like really smelly or they have really big, beautiful flowers, they're attracting a pollinator. Like that's why that flower is big and ostentatious and smelly is because it's using that appearance or that scent profile to bring in a pollinator, right? And when pollinators come in, They're usually carrying, you know, let's think of the bumblebee. Like bumblebee goes to a flower at one end of the garden.

3:58:42SpeakerIt goes in and pollinates the flower. As it's leaving the flower, it gets a ton of pollen dropped on its back. Right. So then now when it flies to another flower, say across the, you know, across the farm or whatever, and it lands on that, it has brought pollen from one far, far away to, to another one. Right. And so depending on the pollinator and the species, these things are often they're introducing outside genetic material.

3:59:11SpeakerRight. So there's a whole like that's a whole discussion of botany in crossing versus outcrossing species versus selfing species. And really the way that that plant breeds shapes determines the shape of the genome. And because cannabis is an obligate outcrosser, It has all of this genetic variability built into the genome because they can't purge the deleterious alleles. So everything just kind of sticks around, right? So we end up with this huge genetic alphabet soup that it's like, if you take the time through breeding to go in and start doing things like selfing, you can actually realign some of these, these genetic types and even, and find, you know, specific combinations that are useful for us.

4:00:00BubblemanBam, right to 1259, dude. That was hardcore. I was like, damn, this is like, this is going to start a whole new episode of Hash Church right here. That was really good information. Good questions. Good deep dive. I appreciated it. I'm sure the over 300 people that are still watching Hash Church this morning, dash this afternoon, dash this evening, depending on where you are. Also quite enjoyed it.

4:00:27BubblemanSo I want to thank everyone. I want to thank my sponsors for, you know, their support. Big shout out to the Craft Greenery. You guys can check them out at Craft Greenery on Instagram or craftgreenery.ca. They're a little local dispenser here that really go out of their way to carry the proper products. They definitely carry your products in their chimera with the group that you're working with, with Kip and they're the Victoria Cannabis Company there.

4:00:56BubblemanAlso, big thanks to Puffco for sponsoring Hash Church. I saw so many Puffcos getting raised up today while Hash Church was on, so many of Puffco have been enjoyed. I enjoyed mine quite a lot on the mountain the other day. Usually I just bring the pivot. It was nice to have the hard... The hard carry case and realize, yeah, there's no blast going into my back if I fall.

4:01:19BubblemanI didn't fall yesterday, but it does indeed happen. So big shout out to those guys. Big shout out to Sean and the crew at Heritage Seed Bank. You can check them out at HeritageSeedBank.com and HashChurch15 for a discount on seeds from them. Hopefully Chimera gets in touch with him sooner than later because I know he wants to carry some beans from you as well. And then a big shout out to Bubble Bags and Grandmaster LEDs.

4:01:48BubblemanThank you everyone for coming out. If there's anything you'd like to say, Wade, before we bounce, it was really great to have you come in, dude. I appreciate you. But if you'd like to have the floor for a few minutes before we say goodbye, I would certainly love to offer it to you, my friend.

4:02:03SpeakerThank you, Marcus.

4:02:07SpeakerYeah, I do have a few things to say. It's been a fascinating show, the science, as folks are diving into the various compounds that the cannabis plant makes. It's good to remember that she makes those compounds for her benefit and to some extent our benefit by our breeding and whatnot.

4:02:34SpeakerWe were talking about David Watson earlier, Skunk Man. And I think he would want us to all remember that a really important thing is to plant seeds. Grow your own if you can. And that's how you find these unique sports, as they're called, versions of the cannabis plant that are of interest to you or other persons. Because it does happen. She's a very giving plant. We just have to pay attention.

4:03:10SpeakerAnd I'll just give a quick report for me. I've had a very up and down week. A lot of challenges for my well-being. I'm having trouble seeing these days. My vision has changed and hopefully it's not a permanent change, but yeah, it's part of why I was so late getting on with Hatch Church this morning is I literally could not read any of the emails on my computer.

4:03:46SpeakerEventually we figured it out and here I am now. And then just a lovely little, a lovely gift. Thank you so much for joining us.

4:04:26SpeakerAnyway, now here we are a year later and last night she gifted us with three little kittens. And so we had a birthday celebration last night and our existing animals now have doubled in number and the joy and beauty of it all is magnified many times over. There's nothing like new life to Give a fella who's feeling his age and the wear and tear on his body nothing like new life to give a new view on how life really is.

4:05:09SpeakerIt's a coming and going, a rising and passing. Here we are. Anyway, that's the report from Nevada City. Wade is actually in pretty good spirit, all things considered. Like I said, new life is such an inspiration. So on that note, big love to all of you. And big thanks, Marcus, and the expertise that you managed to bring to bear on this plant that we all love so much and are still trying to understand.

4:05:41SpeakerWe really, you know, again, the science is fascinating, but the nose knows. And that's all Wade's got today. Thank you. Love you, Wade.

4:05:55BubblemanLove you, Wade.

4:05:58SpeakerMuch love.

4:06:00BubblemanWell, I couldn't say anything better than that. So I will say we will see you next Sunday. I hope everyone has a wonderful week. And I look forward to what the conversation will bring next week. I have a feeling it might be a one Miss Jodi Emery who's going to be coming in to talk about her new legal store in Canada and all the obstacles she had to overcome to get there.

4:06:24Ryan Dank AfWell, that's great that you got a retail shop. That's so well-deserved. Yeah. She put in the time. She put in the time. I always thought at the beginning that the two of those guys should get a production site, and it would be theirs to win or lose. But I think that Jodi is actually much better suited to being on the retail front, and I think that she'll do a banger job with it.

4:06:47Ryan Dank AfSo good for her.

4:06:48BubblemanYeah, 100% agree. Thanks, everybody, for watching. See you next week. Peace out, everybody.