Reflections on Jamaica and Cannabis Advocacy

0:01BubblemanWell, hello everybody and welcome to Hash Church episode 61. Are we really here 61 weeks later? We are absolutely. Let me send out the invitations real quick here. I've got three different sites that I have to go to. Bam, boom, bam. And that should do it. Then I'll just quickly wait for the YouTube chat to catch up from the delay. There it is. And I'll mute that.

0:29BubblemanSo there we go. Well, wow. What an incredible last couple of weeks. Well, three weeks, really. That was three weeks in beautiful, sunny Jamaica. Welcome, Etienne. How are you this morning, my friend?

0:43EtienneGood morning, sir. Welcome back to sound.

0:47BubblemanYes. Very nice to be back. Very nice to have... Been there. Very nice to have just been hanging out with all my Jamaican friends and other people from around the world. There were some from Germany and some from Amsterdam and some from Australia and many from America and Canada. And it was just awesome, man. It was seriously awesome. Nice Ohio shirt. Yeah, you know, I got to give shout outs to Alex.

1:14BubblemanAlex is a really good friend of mine, the guy who started Sohio. We used to call him Buddha. That's how he went on the cannabis.net chat. And I've always really connected with Alex wherever we end up. In Amsterdam, we've always had a blast, you know, staying at the Hotel Krasnopolsky and making the funny Russian accents while we stay there. Always was a blast. And I just wanted to give a shout out to Alex and to his family that we're thinking of him.

1:44BubblemanUnfortunately, his father had a heart attack while we were at the Cannabis Cup, and he ended up on life support, and Alex actually had to let his father go. And I know that he was absolutely crushed and devastated by the loss of his father. I just wanted to tell you that I was thinking of him today, and I don't know watching, buddy, but... My thoughts go out to you and your family.

2:09BubblemanI know that that was really a sad experience, and I lost my father in a very similar fashion of just a shocking moment in time, and he was gone. So let's have a puff for Alex and his pops, you know, here on Hash Church number 61, and let them know that we support them. And if you guys want to go support Sohio, you can Google that up, and they've got all sorts of cool products, wooden sunglasses and really cool pins and shirts and sweatpants and stuff, and...

2:35BubblemanIt's cool counterculture shit, and yeah, let them know that you're supporting them, you know? So this one's for you, Alex.

2:43EtienneHey, Alex, deepest condolences. And welcome, D, will you start us off?

2:49SpeakerYes, bong rip in memory, for sure. Good to see you, buddy. Good to see you, brother.

2:59BubblemanAll right, so we're starting it off with a bit of a somber note today, but you know, We've got to recognize these things from happening. It's not about lowering or raising the vibe. It's about acknowledging them and supporting our friends when they're going through tough times like that. So this one's for Sohail. This one's for Alex. This one's for your pops, bro.

3:22EtienneWe've got to take care of our own and recognize our own for sure in sickness, in health, and unfortunately in the most dire times. So much respect.

3:36BubblemanBoom.

3:40BubblemanI also have my Free Delisi pin on because of course I like to think of all my friends pops out there. And of course Mr. Delisi still serving many, many, many, many, many, many decades in prison. Let's get this guy out. Let's let him be a part of the release. Let's write whoever we got to write. Hit freedelisi.org. I believe it's freedelisi.org but you can Google it just to make sure.

4:05BubblemanAnd you can sign the petition to have Rick's father let out of prison after 27 years. It's been about 27 years too long so far. Let's make it happen. So in chat room today we were talking a little bit about someone asking me, hey, you know, I've got spinal cord something and I need CBD. I need CBD. I want you guys to seriously be careful when you're asking for things like that because what happens is It almost sounds as though, and we might get to that point very well, that when you say I need CBD, you'll actually be able to get what you need, which is your CBD.

4:47BubblemanBut the profile in the plant is full of a lot more things than CBD and THC, as well as the terpenes that are modulating these effects. So I just have a bit of a worry that the way mainstream is bringing cannabis into the mainstream is trying to leave out THC, Thank you for watching.

5:20BubblemanI always feel when we're getting directed by prohibition that we're potentially taking the wrong path. Now, not saying that extracting pure cannabinoids from hemp is the wrong path. I just think potentially a dangerous path is us giving more credit to one cannabinoid than acknowledging the entire profile, which I would almost stake my life a lot to do with the effects of that medicine. I think we should just acknowledge all of the cannabinoids and all of the Many of these things are possible.

5:53EtienneI agree, but unfortunately we've already seen knee-jerk reaction here in the United States with different states going with straight CBD bills. So I think your worry is late in being founded because it's already transgressing across the United States because these legislatures have been told that CBD is what it is. It's not THC. It's not the HUD. And so they've sold these politicians and selling these states On unsound science, on unfound science at that, and it's literally affecting people's lives across the board.

6:30EtienneAnd we saw, unfortunately, that kind of domino effect with one state passing these type of CBD laws and it going into others. And this is where we have issues is because, as we stated, you and I can have the same condition, and CBD may work for me, but what ratio of CBD are you getting Along with THC that works for you. What works for you may not work for me with the same conditions, same cannabinoids, same CBD, etc., etc.

6:59EtienneSo it's also a bit of snake oil salesman, you know, that's being perpetuated, unfortunately. Correct?

7:08BubblemanWell, that's what I feel a little bit, you know, and even just now in the chat, John said, oh, CBD works great for me as long as it's in a five to one. I'm like, so the only thing you're considering is the ratio of CBD to THC and that tells you that those effects are from that? What about all of the other things present in the plant?

7:28BubblemanI'd love to hear about this from you, Mark Scaldone. How can we ignore other compounds that are obviously having an effect? How can we just say, oh, I need a 5 to 1? I tested it. I used it. That's what I need. How do we know that there's not a particular terpene or another ratio of cannabinoids in there that if it's changed, that same 5 to 1 stops working?

7:53BubblemanAnd welcome, Todd McCormick. Good morning.

7:55Todd MccormickWell, if Mark's image just starts talking magically, I will be quiet. But you know what? When people say this, don't you think that all they're measuring is the effect of the THC? It's not the five. It's the one that they're feeling. And they suddenly think, okay, I got a little effect from that that I can measure, so I'm going to say that the CBD did something for me.

8:14Todd MccormickWhen in reality, if you take pure CBD, you don't really feel an effect. If you feel an effect from CD, it should be relief. Dr. Pompa, Dr. Pompa, Dr. Pompa, Dr. Pompa,

8:45Todd MccormickWell, you're right. And that's why I feel like people are misinterpreting things on a large level.

8:51BubblemanI mean, that's what I'm saying. Even the effects of cannabinoids on... Seizures. Now, the cannabinoids effects on seizures could once again be exactly what you're saying. If pure CBD is doing the job, then fine, we'll give it to CBD. But if it's not and you require a profile, well, then that could be more accurately described as a CBD filter on your THC or on your cannabinoid profile because it's definitely, every time I've ever inhaled Well, pure CBD or any of the high CBD strains, I have found it to be like exactly what Rob and Skunkman Sam call it, which is the anti-THC.

9:37BubblemanIt almost just feels like the opposite of getting baked.

9:43Todd MccormickIt's not so much the opposite. The way you explain it is it blocks your THC from basically uptaking. If anything, the CBD is just getting in the way of the THC being completely what it could be, but that's fine. A lot of people that use high THC report having anxiety or feeling paranoid. The CBD can quell that completely, quell that.

10:05BubblemanHere it is. Tastebud420 just said this in the chat. A lot of people are scared of getting I think that prohibition accentuates paranoia, especially if there's a cop behind you.

10:42Todd MccormickYou know, when you're feeling a little out of body or you're suddenly experiencing something a little different, it makes you feel uneasy. And if you lose your sense of, you know, I don't even like feeling drunk. When I drink and I start to feel like I'm drunk, I feel like, oh, shit, what did I do?

10:56BubblemanI'm the same way. But I say uneasy and paranoid are very different. It seems as though they took that uneasy and they cultivated it with their prohibition fear, and it turned into this just incredible. I've seen people have the worst paranoia on you.

11:11EtienneIs it that or is it they finally put a word to a feeling? Because they didn't acknowledge feelings as much as symptoms, you know, overall. If you were feeling uneasy, have a shot, have a drink, et cetera, et cetera. Or feeling a little bit nervous, have a nerve tonic. Remember, they sold nerve tonics and things like that. So paranoia existed definitely before cannabis. And I agree that prohibition exacerbated it through its misinformation.

11:36EtienneRemember, they told us we were going to lie, kill, murder. Then they told us we're going to grow big breasts and we're going to go crazy and we're going to be lazy. And, you know, all those things still haven't come true. But at the same time, the pervasive fear had gone so much into the common air that, I mean, quite a few patients come in and are initially frightened by how high They're afraid to get because maybe one time they got high or they saw a friend get too high.

12:05EtienneSo they're concerned now of now with these ratios and these new numbers, what do those ratios and numbers mean? And am I going to get so high that I'm going to go crazy? And so that is a real effect and a real fear of patients, especially older patients. They want to get rid of their pain and effect, but they don't want to get some crazy high. Well, here's a story.

12:30BubblemanHere's a story for you, Etienne. A friend of mine, an old partner in the hemp industry that I used to work with back in Manitoba, his mother-in-law recently contracted a form of breast cancer. And so him and his wife, his wife obviously being the daughter of this woman, Called me up and, you know, very nervous and very upset obviously. And so I had some of Horatio's distillate and I sent it to them so she could have that.

13:01BubblemanAnd I just told them to, you know, microdose up until they could get her to, you know, potentially a gram a day. And then I guess accidentally what they did was they thought that the three gram syringe was a gram and so they squeezed a third of it out. But these are three gram syringes. So she ate a gram of Horatio's decarboxylated active distillate, the LHO distillate, and aside from being like almost comatose for I'd say 18 hours in the sense of not being able to move her hands and arms and just like literally laying there, She wasn't scared at all, and it was really quite an interesting thing.

13:40BubblemanShe got a therapeutic dose of phytocannabinoids.

13:44EtienneIt's a heroic dose.

13:46BubblemanIt's a heroic dose, but it's also therapeutic, and I would not be surprised when she goes in in the next few days for her biopsy to see if the lump is growing or shrinking. That in the least, it's probably stopped. They're continuing to give her some, but on, you know, Tony's advice, a much lower, you know, maybe 200 milligrams throughout the day if she can take that without the effects.

14:09Todd MccormickYou know, a true story, LV Musica that gets marijuana from the federal government way, way back when she first started using illegal marijuana. Was that in the 80s? She was going through a coma surgery to, you know, try to relieve the pressure. And she'd smoked weed, and when she went down there, they test their pressure, and if their pressure isn't above a certain threshold, they won't do the surgery.

14:31Todd MccormickAnd because she smoked the weed, her pressure had dropped down. When she got there, they didn't want to do the surgery because she wasn't over the limit that she had to be at for them to basically do the surgery. And she was blown away, and that's when she really realized there's got to be something to this weed.

14:51BubblemanAbsolutely. We've said it time and time again, and it's definitely miraculous to say the least, at least in how it works with our body. It is a true companion plant. Go figure that they've tried to keep us from it for so, so long. Go figure that there's 500 to 600 people every Sunday that wake up at 9 o'clock in the morning, or if they're in Europe, at 5 or 6 in the afternoon, and come and check this information out with us.

15:19BubblemanIt's It's pretty fucking awesome.

15:23SpeakerHow many people out there have eaten too much? Even on this panel, everybody's probably eaten too much, taken too big a dose, and got too high, correct? I know I have, but I did way too much. I figured it out, and it took me two days of fucking recovering to figure that out. I was a pig.

15:45BubblemanYeah, it happens, man. The 11-hydroxy metabolite is... Definitely more powerful than THC. That metabolite is strong. I'll never forget watching three people go out on stretchers.

16:05Todd MccormickThree to five times more psychoactive.

16:08BubblemanYeah, and I would say when you're feeling it, it definitely feels more like 25 to 100 times more psychoactive.

16:17SpeakerAt least that's... I did a batch of bud into butter. Before I knew about coconut oils or any of that stuff, it was just a chunk of butter with a half pound of weed, simmered it in a frying pan for a while and did all that stuff and then boiled it in water, then cheese clothed it off. Then I, instead of taking just a tablespoon and putting it in with a mixture of cookie mix and being a proper mix there and eating those cookies, I buttered four pieces of toast with the butter.

16:50SpeakerThen I made a batch of cookies with straight THC butter. No butter at all, just the THC butter. I made a few of those. Me and my buddies were high for two, three days. We were puke and green and shit and green for two, three days. We were fucked for two, three days, literally. It was bad. Never again did I do that. It took me probably six, fuck, almost ten years before I ate Anything again when it comes to doing that.

17:18SpeakerI was fucking paranoid of that for sure.

17:21BubblemanWell, I'll tell you, that's definitely a therapeutic dose right there. I bet you unwittingly you didn't even realize that you healed all sorts of random shit that was going wrong in your body that day.

17:32SpeakerProbably, yeah. I don't know. I felt pretty bad for three days, man. It was a heavy, heavy, heavy situation. It didn't feel good for a while.

17:43BubblemanWelcome, Horatio, just to catch you up. We're talking about a friend of mine that consumed a gram of your distillate orally the other day and got well medicated. You know, she's fighting an aggressive breast cancer, so obviously they are of the mindset of maybe take a little bit more than a little bit less, and she's facing a potential surgery in the near future, so it's... I thought that it wasn't a bad thing.

18:14BubblemanI wouldn't take it every single day, but I would build up to that. Wouldn't you agree? Taking small amounts and just building up to, you know. Where did she start at? 900 milligrams. She started at like 900 milligrams.

18:29HoratioOkay, no, because I obviously live in that kind of world, so what was the effects on her? Did she trip balls or did she take it like...

18:39BubblemanYou know, like... She just didn't really move much and laid down and, you know, was really like, got pasty, got pasty mouth and had really no fear about it, though. Just wrote it out. Just sort of was like, slept like a log.

18:56HoratioIt sounds like, so there were no negative like side effects? There was no hours of puking or like CBM blackout? Because like, you know, when people say a thousand milligrams, it's a soup. It's a complete soup. And I noticed that on many of the side, people are describing side effects as the main event. And I'm like, THC regulates your system. And when it's not doing that, it's giving off euphoria.

19:23HoratioThank you for watching.

19:43HoratioThank you so much for joining us.

20:13SpeakerThank you, Mark.

20:23BubblemanWe also told her that if she's feeling these anxious effects of eating too much cannabis, that bringing a little bit of sugar into your bloodstream can be a great help. Drinking a little bit of a juice or something, just getting your blood sugar levels up a little higher. Yeah, in the end, my thoughts are going out to their whole family. I'm excited. They feel like they have hope for the first time in this because it's hard to have hope when you're looking at surgeries and chemos and radiations and stuff.

20:57BubblemanI know there's hope in there, but it's just such a small glimmer compared to the idea of using a plant that you consume orally that worst case scenario makes you feel euphoria or knocks you out for 12 hours so you sleep wicked good. That is just night and day to me. Those are two very far sides of the coin, very opposite sides of the coin. I think it's time to get terpy.

21:22BubblemanI got all these terps, and I think it's time to get terpy.

21:28EtienneOkay, Mark, a couple of things. What was the best bud you had there, and what was the one experience you'll remember from your trip?

21:38BubblemanOkay, good questions, very good questions. I'm going to have to give the best bud. And now keep in mind, we didn't make water hash with everyone's material. We pressed rosin. I brought an actual denail press, had it on my table, and was literally pressing rosin. And I'll tell you, the first four people to bring bud over...

22:04BubblemanSo at that point, Tony and I looked at each other. This could be very bad. This could be not good. And so we still pushed through. You know, a friend of ours came up, and he brought a nugget, and he said, here, try this one. And we closed it, and we squeezed it, and we opened it, and it had dabs. There were dabs. They were kind of an orangey, reddish color dab, quite nice.

22:27BubblemanYou know, the soil and the heat of the sun really produces a reddish resin. And I'm not 100% sure that that's a CBN being that red as much as a particular type of tropical terpene either fraction or profile that is found in strains around the world that are close to the equator. Once we started squishing buds, it was game over. We squished hundreds of buds. We got beautiful flower resin, like rosin.

22:59BubblemanI couldn't even believe how beautiful it was. Like, it was as nice as anything. And it was the sun-grown Jamaican resin. And keep in mind, and a lot of people don't know this about the tropics, it's very important what time of year You are in, in the tropics, based on the quality of the food, the fruit, the plants that you will get. So we came for the cannabis cup during a drought.

23:25BubblemanNow it rained a lot when we were there because the drought was ending, but all the cannabis that was grown was grown under drought. And so the resin heads are much smaller in a drought, which shows in our bubble video because we got most of our heads in the 45 micron. The heads just don't get big enough when the water is not present and pumping into the plant.

23:45BubblemanThey end up getting quite small. So all of the herb that we squished, all of the herb that was judged, that was judged during a drought. And if you know anything about tropical ganja, this is pretty much the worst time that you could judge that cannabis is during the drought. And it's not like they just have water during the drought. It's an island. They don't just like go over to their next door neighbor and like, Take a leg off their river or whatever.

24:12BubblemanThere's literally like no fucking water until it falls out of the sky.

24:16HoratioThere's no pumping it from North California?

24:19BubblemanNo, you can't pump it from North California. There's no tankers that are going to bring it to you. So the best would have been very hard to say, but I'm going to give it to Omar. Omar was great. He was the guy hanging out with the East London or the... I always forget their name. Terrible. East London Cannabis Club, ELCC, I believe. Greg was in here talking about it a couple weeks ago.

24:43BubblemanWe met a bunch of those guys. They were great guys. They hung out at our booth a ton. We definitely hung with them a lot. Omar was kind of their guy. Omar was their grower that they attached themselves to. Omar had great bud. You'll see him on some of the videos once I post them. So I'll give it up to Omar for the best bud this time around.

25:03BubblemanAnd what was my, okay, my best memory for sure, which is so random because I don't, you know, take that much out of, for whatever reason, I just have always felt like if I get all prideful, it'll corrupt my ego and I'll just, I won't be a nice person. Not to say that I'm a particularly nice person. Now, I couldn't say whether I am or not. Some people would say yes and other people would say fuck no.

25:30BubblemanBut when I walked up on stage for winning best product at the High Times Cannabis Cup and Tony and I literally dabbed every single one of the people in the audience out with Terps and Flower Rosin from Jamaica. He brought like 20 vials of Terps and it was just unbelievable getting up on the stage with Tony and having everyone like cheering and every single person seemed to be our friends.

25:53BubblemanIt was like I recognized every single person in the audience. That was definitely one of my favorite moments of the entire trip. So, thanks for the question.

26:06Todd MccormickHow many people do you estimate came to the event from outside? How big was this world competition?

26:13BubblemanWell, the world competition all happened in LA, so I would really not know in that, you know, how big it was in that sense. I'd have to say there were some thousand, you know, maybe 2,000 people there. Maybe... Maybe more? I don't know. It's hard to tell. They used to always tell me there was like 5,000 at the Cannabis Cup, and I'd be like, what? 5,000 people?

26:36BubblemanMaybe three.

26:39SpeakerFor those who never saw it before, Mark, what did they think of the rosin technique? Did they think it was, they didn't believe it until they saw it with their own eyes?

26:47BubblemanAre you kidding me, bro? It was absolutely blowing their minds for sure. Absolutely, like everyone wanted the press. They were just like, wait a minute. And then the coolest thing is, is here's the thing. Believe it or not, a flat iron, which may not be a firm one, Thank you for watching.

27:27BubblemanWe squeezed some nice bubble, but the Jamaican gum, it just came out too dark and it just didn't look like a great product. It might have been, it could have been the most amazing topical, it might have been the most amazing for a sublingual or transgender. I have no idea. Just from a smoker's perspective, I know that Tony and I first got excited when we squished like, I can't remember which dude it was.

27:50BubblemanIt wasn't Omar first, it was another dude who actually squeezed out like Reddish, orangey, goldish oil from the bud and that was, we were like, woohoo!

28:02SpeakerWhat was Knife's take on the science of rosin? Did he try to explain it or anything or did he have any input on how it might be happening?

28:11BubblemanMan, I'll tell you, Knife is a very intelligent guy. It was a real pleasure to sit down and talk with him. Mostly because of his unique perspective, and sometimes you'll have cultural differences that create a gap too far to potentially bridge between particular informations, and information is lost in the transfer of those cultural differences. And when Knife stepped up from this Rastaman perspective, I mean, he sat down, he had a gourd in his hand, Thank you so much for joining us.

29:09BubblemanIn that Caribbean area in Jamaica and the surrounding islands. He inspired me, man. I just shut the hell up for about an hour and a half and listened to that guy talk. I want to thank you guys as well for allowing Knife the time to talk. I definitely want to welcome Mr. Dana Larson to the room. What's going on, Dana?

29:28MrHey. First Hash Church. I'm not even sure if I'm doing this all right, but presumably you can hear me.

29:34BubblemanYou are doing it 100% right, dude. So good to see you. I saw you in the chat and I was like, well, Dana will come into Hash Church and talk with us about some awesome things. You're a man full of cannabis information.

29:48MrI am indeed. I got lots of good stuff going on. Didn't want to hijack your Jamaica and stuff, though.

29:53BubblemanOh no, dude, this is how it goes. Hash Church leads itself. There's no agenda. It's put the ego aside, and when someone comes in to share good information, which I know you will share with us, I give you the floor.

30:07MrOh, okay. I wasn't expecting that. I got some stuff going on. I got a couple of books coming out in the next few weeks. People want to sit in. If you're interested in the history of cannabis... Yeah, look at that. What's that? Oh, there you go, right on. Someone's holding one of their green buds and hat. That's my favorite one. And that's the easiest to read. I got another one coming out called The History of Cannabis in Canada.

30:30MrAnd it goes from 1606 and times. It's fully illustrated in black and white. And it covers a whole bunch of history that I'm sure people do not know because I didn't know it until I had researched it myself. But there's all kinds... About Canadian doctors in the 1600s or the 1700s, getting super high on marijuana extracts with them and their patients. There's a lot of cool stuff about how this was banned in Canada and the propaganda campaigns.

31:00MrAnd, you know, as a Canadian, most of what we hear about the history of marijuana is from the U.S. And we get a lot of the U.S. information on Mark in there. And I profile a lot of the other Canadian activists and what they're up to. With a big bud, we've all seen them doing that before. And it'll be quite a good book that I think will have a big influence, I hope, on the future of Canada as we see where we came from and get a better idea of where we're going.

31:33BubblemanWho did your illustrations?

31:35MrThis guy named Patrick Dowers, he also goes by Art Penn. He lives in Seattle, and he's done a lot of other, he's probably the most marijuana illustrator historian in the world. He did another book, or other comic, illustrated version of the American film from World War II, promoting cannabis, Hemp Farmers. And he's done a bunch of other cool stuff as well, but he's really good at portraits, at drawing things from histories, all of the art.

32:05MrBased on real people and real events, he draws a lot from photographs and images and puts his imagination, blends it all together. I've been working on this thing. Some of the art in here is like 20 years old, and some of it was drawn a few weeks ago. And it's something I've been working on for decades on and off, and I'm really excited to come out and print.

32:27MrAnd I think whether or not you're a Canadian, if you're in half church, you'll be interested in this kind of stuff, and it should be a really good read for people.

32:36EtienneWhen does it come out, Dana?

32:38MrGo ahead. We get them back from the printers on December 1st. I'll be shipping them on December 2nd to a lot of different stores and individuals and order them online. But if you go to Christmas History Day, you should be able to do printers there if you want to get a lot. It's a wonderful Christmas gift for the stoners.

33:05MrAnd I'm also, that comes out December 2nd, reprinting my Harry Potter book for like the fourth time now, and not 18, something like that, just before Christmas. So I'm excited to get these books out.

33:21BubblemanAnd what about, what's going on with Harry Pothead?

33:24MrWell that's... Coming out December 18th. That's just the first one. I'm reprinting it again. I'm working on the sequel, but I've been working on the sequel for, I don't know, eight years now, so I don't really want to say it's coming out soon. Done next year. Harry Potter and the 420 Code. If you haven't read Harry Potter...

33:42Todd MccormickI've got a dumb question though, Dana. J.K. Rowling has pockets full of money. I mean, obviously she was richer than the Queen of England for a minute until she gave all her money away. I mean, can you literally, like, how can you parody your stuff that much? Don't you fear that they come after you at all?

33:57MrI have no fear of that at all. I was actually more worried about the... Because that one, the artist used the original character. It's all original. He redrew them. But, you know, I've been on TV with that book. Nothing's happened in several months. I don't think I'm going to get sued. And Harry... There's no lawsuit possible there, although when I first, I wrote this in 2007, and every publisher I talked to was like, it's great, but we're scared, and we probably won't, but they're just so big and we're so small.

34:27MrIf she sued me, it would just be huge publicity. I would sell a ton more copies, right? I have, and there's no reason to. And J.K. Rowling isn't really super lawsuit heavy. She hasn't gone after other parodies. And now it's been like, the book's been out for eight years in three different editions in Canada, the U.S., and England. So there's no lawsuits happening there. And I've actually got a guy who's got the movie and might make a movie out of it at some point.

34:54MrI'm not sure that's going to happen or not, but a Harry Potter movie would fill my heart with joy, that's for sure. But no, there'll be no lawsuits in any of this stuff, and if it does, it'll just help me sell more copies.

35:07BubblemanSo how about an updated version, your perspective of what's going on in Canada right now, what needs to happen, and where we're potentially headed, you know, from your perspective.

35:21MrWell, I mean, we're getting into the endgame now of legalization, and it seems like it's going to be happening in Canada very soon. Missing it and seems very clear on that. But I think the question for us now is what kind of legalization are we going to get? And is it going to be a corporate restricted model with increased punishments for regular folks? Or is it going to be everybody can access and participate in?

35:45MrAnd I guess we'll see. It's going to be up to the provinces, I think, in Canada. I think the federal government probably put in rules to end prohibition. To the provinces to make out the details under our system, that's how it works in Canada with alcohol and tobacco. And I expect provinces will do different things. The Premier of Manitoba just recently came out and said that since marijuana is highly addictive, he'd be sold if the liquor store is like alcohol is.

36:14MrI'm not necessarily against it being a liquor store, but it's certainly not my preference. Optimal choice, packaging a relative substance in with a relatively harmful substance probably isn't the best way to go. But I mean, if they're going to treat it like beer, your own, where you can buy it in a pub or a specialized place and drink it, where there's cold beer and wine stores, you know, if that model goes for cannabis and the ability to grow and brew your own, we have a lot of micro-brewing quite, you know, whole hog here in BC, if we could have the same thing with I wouldn't be objecting to that model.

36:51MrHere's a question. Where to sell cannabis? I wouldn't say next to the Scotch Whiskey Store is the best spot.

36:57BubblemanOne question in regards to that. Do you think places like the liquor marts and the shoppers drug mart or these other places are lobbying for the ability to produce products?

37:14MrYou cut out a second there and I didn't quite get exactly what you were asking.

37:18BubblemanI'll say this again. I just wonder if companies like the Liquor Board and Shoppers Drug Mart and these other pharmacies are lobbying for the rights to sell these products.

37:31MrI think the liquor stores are because they have a lot of unionized employees and they work with the government and so they see themselves as needing to grow their employee base and get a new job and make them bigger and stronger. I'm not sure about Shoppers Drug Mart. Things like that. I really don't see those kind of stores ever carrying buds. No. Shoppers like Martin's stores are carrying extracts and capsules and tinctures.

37:55MrThey're not going to sell raw herbs because it'll stink up their store because it's not what they're into and it doesn't fit with them, right? So I think it'll wait until you can buy extracts in a store and then we would see shoppers selling capsules and then cream and all that kind of stuff.

38:10Todd MccormickHey guys, we already have cannabis in a can out here. It's kind of getting common. You know, they use nitrogen packing. It lasts a long time. It's dark. You're going to see buds being sold at fucking Costco. And, you know, the thing I think is that, you know, the details are not going to matter so much because you're going to, as soon as you let us have this back, us as a community, everyone's going to start arguing equal rights in commerce.

38:32Todd MccormickEveryone. Everybody that's a level-minded business person is going to step in and say, hey, fuck you, all things are equal now. So you're going to see this move all over the place fast as shit. And one of the reasons why I was frustrated with people in Ohio is, dude, the details are going to fall off the face of the cliff. Once you give the plant back to the people, this whole game is on change.

38:55Todd MccormickThe profits are going to drop, the price point is going to go down, and everybody and their brothers are going to argue equal space in this market. So, I mean, they couldn't keep it prohibited during prohibition. I don't know how the fuck they're going to keep it prohibited or controlled during legalization, and they know it. This shit grows like a weed, and they're fucked.

39:13MrI agree with that very much, that they couldn't control it under prohibition. They won't be able to control it under legalization. People will be less likely to be afraid because the penalties and the risk will be less. We're going to grow more pot and they're going to put a bunch of rules in that they can't really enforce.

39:29Todd MccormickLet me put it this way. What will there be to control when there's no profit in it? Nobody gives a shit about tomatoes in your backyard because tomatoes are what? A couple bucks a pound at best for great organic tomatoes over here? The reality is when it's worthless, no one's going to give a shit. That's where it's going to get. The only place cannabis will be worth anything is if you've got semis full of it and you're an industrial grower.

39:53Todd MccormickYou know, it's going to drop to nothing. And when it drops to nothing, the interest in, like, putting their finger down or stealing our cars or coming after our anything is going to go away.

40:05MrDuh. But I do think a lot of the organization models they're trying to put in are based on, well, we're going to sell weed for $10 a gram instead of the underground guy selling it, and we're going to make all... Thank you for watching.

40:40MrDrop until everyone gets there.

40:43Todd MccormickCan I point something out? Right now, at $1,600 a pound, which is not uncommon for outdoor, really quality outdoor in California, that's already under $4 a gram wholesale. And that's illegal. So $454 grams in a pound, right? That comes out to $352 a gram at $1,600 a pound. So it's already becoming worth less and less and less and less and less.

41:08EtienneAnd $1,600 a pound, I don't really see this year. It's down to $1,400 a pound.

41:15Mr$1,200 a pound? Well, then how come people keep telling me the Americans are buying all our beef?

41:23Todd MccormickI just want to ask. $2.64 a gram, guys. $2.64 at $1,200 a pound. Not for anything I would smoke.

41:30BubblemanWhat's that, Tony?

41:32SpeakerI would not smoke the $1,200 a pound. The herb that I'm seeing that's clean, green, organic, sun-grown, outdoor... We'll see you next time.

41:59Todd MccormickI think they're trying. A lot of growers are trying to get high prices. It doesn't mean they're getting them though, man. And the other thing is export quality. If they're exporting it, it gains totally different. But here in California, places like BPJ.

42:14EtienneYeah, everything is tested before it ever hits the floor. So I know what's in it, and I know it's good, and I know it doesn't have anything on it. So you don't have to smoke it, Tony. The other patients will.

42:24HoratioWhat about a situation like Colorado?

42:27SpeakerAs far as like the quality that I've seen in California, I've seen fucking 50 growers across the state. Everybody's got different stuff. They've got outdoor. They've got LD. They've got greenhouse. I'm just telling you the stuff that I've seen, I have seen the opposite. I've seen the stuff that I've seen in that sector of high quality sun grown. It's in the range of 18 up to 24.

42:52SpeakerThey are getting it because it is testing higher than a lot of indoor. It's extremely good. I have some of it right now. What part of it tests higher than indoor?

43:01Todd MccormickThat's such a general blanket bullshit statement. I got to call you on it. All genetics being equal, what part of it's testing higher than indoor?

43:12SpeakerTerpenes and more cannabinoids besides THC.

43:18Todd MccormickAnd you think, so now what you're stating is that if you grow pot in a greenhouse, you're going to get more terpenes and more cannabinoids than you would if you grow it indoor under lights.

43:28SpeakerI know for a fact, because I've done it myself, that you will get a wider cannabinoid spectrum, a higher terpene profile if you use the sun versus the lights.

43:39SpeakerFor a fact.

43:43Todd MccormickYou know, I think it's a very general statement, and I think different strains would do different things in different environments.

43:49SpeakerWell, I'm going to stop you. Go ahead. In Colorado, before I came out here, I grew 300 varieties, 20 different CBD, 280 THC strains in four cycles for three years in a greenhouse. I watched the different sun cycles. I watched the indoor. I did 300 lights indoor, the same exact strains in soil, indoor, and watched the different test results. You might see 10% more THC from your indoor than you would your outdoor, or a little more.

44:24SpeakerDepends on how you're growing your indoor, but if you're going side by side, tea brews and doing organic, and you use the sun versus the light, you will see more, such as THCV, always seeing 0.7 to 1.2% THCV every time when it hits the sun. You could grow that same strain indoors and see 0.01, 0.02, very low percentages of other cannabinoids. The terpene profile, I know for a fact because I extract terpenes, and I just extracted three unbelievably perfectly grown, sun-grown, assisted, not just outdoor, but it's greenhouse, We can agree to disagree though, Tony.

45:10Todd MccormickI mean, not to be weird, I mean, in our environments that have been bringing plants to amazing places for a long time, and I mean, genetics, all things being equal, if the genetics were equal, Yeah, I don't know.

45:30BubblemanBut the sun and lights are not equal. Indoor lights are a fraction of a spectrum of the sun. The indoor lights, Brad Higgins has come on and broken this all down, that those lights that we use are an absolute fraction of the light that the sun produces. So that to me, something must be in that. It's why I love...

45:56Todd MccormickI'm a huge fan of the sun. I'm a huge fan of the sun. Don't get me wrong. I love the sunshine. If this was a dark planet, I would cry. But no, all I'm saying is, you know, I've seen plants really express themselves fully and sometimes at their best indoors in controlled situations when they're handled perfectly. And You know, I like greenhouse. I like augmented light in greenhouses.

46:19Todd MccormickIf it was a perfect world, that's where I would be too. In a million dollar augmented light greenhouse, using the sun and then using light when the clouds were making my day cloudy. I just don't know that, in my opinion, if the plant can express itself. Like, I've always thought of it like this. If a plant can do 100%, We always fuck it up a little, if this makes sense.

46:42Todd MccormickThe environment, the handling of it, something will get in its way of hitting 100% of its capabilities. So we get close. And if what you're saying is by putting it in the sunshine you're thinking it gets even closer than it does under lights, It's interesting. I would love to see more studies done. I would love to see control tests side by side with the exact same genetics, you know, and then it gets into a conversation about light technology because as that changes, then, you know, potentially, you know, if it shows to be right, I still even don't know if it will be right, but go ahead.

47:19SpeakerOkay. I'll agree on a few things. Indoor, obviously. You have complete control of your environment. You're able to make sure there's no bugs and no molds and no pesticides. You have a clean, uniform product. Very high testing if you can control all your elements. And you can replicate it over and over if you do it really well. There is the sun variable, the natural variable. So what I meant to say earlier, in those four cycles, as an example, in the summertime, You would see high, high numbers of full cannabinoids spectrums, high amounts of terpenes.

47:58SpeakerYou would see like when I say high numbers of CBD, I'm talking 20% CBD strains plus. But when you hit the winter time, okay, and the sun cycle changes a little bit, you've got the different intensity, then you would see things drop drastically, like in half. So you'll get buds going from huge, you know, Thank you for watching.

48:38Todd MccormickLook, we all know you're not going to get the consistency because the whole planet spinning thing, you know, right. But this is another reason why I do think that, you know, see I have a hard time, and I guess where we disagree is when people generalize about what cannabis will do, I feel like they're wrong. Because realiztically, cannabis is so different. It's like saying a chihuahua can pick up a huge log that a Great Dane could pick up and run across a field.

49:05Todd MccormickIt's just not possible. So different varieties do different things under different circumstance. And, you know, I've seen a lot of amazing indoors. And, you know, of course greenhouses are great. But, yeah, all of the great greenhouses I've seen have augmented light as well. I mean, and, you know, it's because of the limitations of the sun. So I would like to see these tests done. And, you know, I don't discredit what you've seen at all, Tony, but I've seen a lot of shit too.

49:32Todd MccormickAnd, you know... You know, a lot of indoor pot is really, really, really good. In some ways, I've seen it exceed what's happened because of the uncontrollable variables in nature that a grower has to face. So, you know, if a grower gets a good run, yeah, you know, but almost every time an indoor run is good, unless the person running it doesn't know what they're doing.

49:58BubblemanWhich is almost always the case.

50:01SpeakerI mean, what... One thing I wanted to bring up about in terms of using cannabis testing from the labs on nuggets as indicators of what the plant that you're growing produces in mass. I think the percentages in terms of the relation to each other are a lot more important than what a THC percentage per gram of nugget is. The weight per gram of nugget is most important to consumers because it's a representation of how much active chemical they're purchasing for their dollar.

50:42SpeakerA perfect example is let's say you take one strain that yields a pound a liter or is lower yield or a nugget form, has very little leaf mass or density. And has a very, very large amount of surface area for resin to cover. You're going to end up with different results than a plant that has a smaller surface area and very, very high tissue density so that it's a ratio of how much THC per weight rather than a ratio of THC versus CBD versus anything else.

51:14SpeakerSo I think it's important to know. When you're comparing the difference between greenhouse or indoor or any of this, that just because it produces 20% on a single bud outside and it does 15% inside, let's say, doesn't necessarily mean that the, especially once you extract it, It's really any different than what it was outside or inside. It potentially can be. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying the results that you do see are more of a factor of resin per gram of material that goes in, which can be changed just by trimming it better.

51:57SpeakerBy removing useless mass can just increase your THC percentage. You know, all that stuff in terms of relation of percentage to weight of cannabis is somewhat of an arbitrary argument, I think. Well, let's talk about head size. But you know what? Hold on.

52:20Todd MccormickIn the percentage of oils, and I don't think THCV is a great indicator. Some varieties don't even have it present. So in all factuality, different strains do different things in different places. You could have had different runs, Tony, in three years' time that was a little bit of variation. I mean, in all reality, that could have been the way you were growing your pot more than the way the pot was growing itself, if you will.

52:44Todd MccormickAnd it's hard to say that every single run was an exact same run. I mean, you know what I'm saying. So it's all just on harvest time too. Some of those cannabinoids aren't going to be present unless you let them go longer. And I mean, so.

53:01SpeakerThe generalization that I was making that you may or may not agree with is what started this. And that's what I'm saying is I noticed a decrease in overall THC. Versus indoor, but an increase in overall cannabinoid full spectrum and an increase in resin size for outside, which would then increase terpene extraction. An increase of what? Of THC by the weight of the bud? That's just a representation of resin per gram of weed.

53:36SpeakerIt's not a representation of the chemical structure or composition of that plant. Or of that resin, should I say, not the plant. When you get the 20% of the nugget, that's the representation of how that plant was grown and the THC percentage of the resin on that weight. I mean, a perfect example is if you just use phospholode and make the mass of your bud extremely heavy, that's going to lower your THC percentage very quickly because you have a small surface area where there can't be a lot of resin.

54:07SpeakerAnd then you have a very, very dense high mass plant material behind that. You're just never going to end up with 35% THC on something like that because the mass is too high to have that much resin on it unless it's, you know, So bracked it out that there's all this surface area. I mean, when you look at cannabis under a microscope, you can really only fit so much resin per square millimeter or whatever you are.

54:35SpeakerYou can only get so much in there, and if that square millimeter, it weighs twice as much than the plant next to it just because of the plant's characteristics, it's going to adulterate the results of the bud, but not necessarily have a representation of the full There's a full cannabinoid and terpene spectrum of that plant.

54:54MrRight.

54:55Todd MccormickIn my experience, most pot that was tested, most people that got strains and went and grew them outside, the THC cannabinoids, the percentage of THC, which is what they were looking for, was not higher than their indoor.

55:09SpeakerThat's what I'm agreeing with you. If we pull back a little bit and take Fletch and go into a visual. Let's look at an OG bud. Let's say one inch big and you grew that same OG bud outside and that bud in relative was three inches big. So you pulled a six pound plant outside and you had a half a pound plant inside and the relative size of that bud, three inches versus one inch.

55:37SpeakerSo I agree with what you're both saying. I'm just saying that like when you're talking about the actual volume of that bud when it's increased, What I'm saying is, and I'm agreeing with what Todd is saying, is that I'm seeing that you're getting less THC per mass, is what you're saying, Fletch, outside than when you do inside. But outside, look at the head, the actual trichome head size of that OG, the 120 specifically.

56:10SpeakerLook at the 120. Outside versus the 120 inside. Because that bud, it's like looking at the redwood forest versus a tree. It's bigger. You're going to have bigger heads. You're going to have bigger. Yes, you will.

56:26Todd MccormickFor sure. Not to be weird, but, you know, when I used to see separate all my resin heads, Tony, because I had, you know, WS Tyler Sieves from 60 to 150 back in 97 sitting on a rototap at my house. And honestly, depending on, and I did flower outdoors the same strains I was flowering indoors. And the reality is, is that it depends on so many variables.

56:48Todd MccormickDepends on the weather, the wind, the light intensity, so many things when you're outdoors. And when I would seed separate, the resin glands would be the size they were, if this makes sense. It would just be at some different harvest I would, or some different times of harvest, I would have more of different sizes. If that makes sense.

57:07SpeakerYeah, that's what I was saying too. So the wintertime cycle versus the spring or summertime would definitely affect the head sizes. But let's say you're using assisted LD greenhouses. So you're using the sun. You're controlling your environment. That's what I'm talking about. I mean, what could be the difference between when you were in Colorado at 5,000 feet elevation versus 1,000 feet of elevation on the coast? I mean, there's so many variables that could affect not only the strain that you're talking about, but also the growing environment that you're talking about.

57:38SpeakerAnd then, you know, let's say theoretically that the heads are larger on outdoor, right? That doesn't necessarily mean that you're getting more terpenes or more THC or anything. It's still... It's still just a mass, right? How much resin off of what size mass plant and what the percentage of, what are you trying to compare? What the yield of resin, terpene, and whatever it is for the mass of the plant, right, as tissue?

58:09SpeakerOr are you trying to measure the composition of the resin once it's been removed from the plant? And those are two completely different things. 30% THC strains. You know, just because they're just THC and nothing else, and there's, like Todd's saying, there's so many variables that not only strain environment and everything else that it makes it hard to really make a generalization. Well, my generalization is when I'm looking at a strain versus the same strain grown indoor.

58:44SpeakerI see smaller heads, more of them in less surface area on an indoor bud. Then when they get bigger and they go outside under the sun, they have bigger spacing between those stalks and those heads. Bigger heads, little less THC, lot more terpenes, lot more other cannabinoids that are in it.

59:06Todd MccormickDr. How do you hold the plant longer? How do you hold the plant longer? Dr. I don't just leave it on the plant longer. Late stage. They're all going to develop to a point of rejuvenation. It's up to you where you want to stop the growth if you're growing indoors.

59:22BubblemanWell, Skunkman Sam in chat just said, bigger heads are better always.

59:30Todd MccormickSo should we all let the plants go late then? If that's what he's saying, then now that we grow for resin, should we all be taking our plants to a later stage so that in the later stage of development, it's developing the turps?

59:42BubblemanI think it's a generalization to say that the heads get bigger only at the later stage.

59:49Todd MccormickWait a minute, how is it a generalization? The shit's growing out, not in. It's not Mark and Mindy over here. How does a dog throw down?

59:56BubblemanHey, listen, it's very simple, Todd. If you listen for once, just try to listen and hear what I'm saying. I have photographed the cannabis plant throughout its life cycle, and trichomes do not... Thank you for watching.

1:00:33SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

1:00:57SpeakerThank you for watching.

1:01:06SpeakerWhat BHO does as well is that it actually strips the plant of all the cannabinoids, or not all, but the majority of them versus when you make bubble, you just get small fractions, which with certain strains is great because the majority of the good tasting bomb resin heads are above 73 microns and below 160. But not every strain falls into that category, and I've had plenty of strains over the years from seed and from clone that You know, the 73 micron or the 120 micron really aren't as smelly or feel as potent.

1:01:45SpeakerNow, granted, that's not any type of quantifiable result, but they feel like smoking some 45 micron OG bubble that's, you know, 70% melty even before the whole rosin thing would put my ass to sleep, so, and it tasted great, so. You made a statement though that you didn't think that just because the heads are bigger it had more terpenes and I do want to have to disagree with that in the sense that if you're dealing with the same genetics and you add volume to your head you're going to have more terpenes in that head.

1:02:19SpeakerBut what I'm saying is that every resin head size is a proposition of those. You can't automatically say that all the flavor in OG comes from the 73 micron heads or whatever the flavor it is that you're looking for. Sure, there may be a larger volume of terpenes in the larger head, but is it the terpene that you're looking for or the terpene that you're trying to extract or get Concentrated.

1:02:49SpeakerAnd that's all things that change. I'm not saying it is or isn't one way or the other. I'm saying it's going to change with every variable that you change. Oh, for sure. For sure. So let me just ask this then. Do you and Todd disagree that going from indoor to sun-controlled that you're actually not producing a bigger volume of heads? Not surface area coverage, but just bigger heads in general from indoor to outdoor using the sun as well.

1:03:24SpeakerI don't have enough experience to make that comment. I've seen tons of outdoor, but I've never done nearly enough testing, right, and not in terms of like, THC per gram of weed, but like, what is the composition of this extract, indoor versus outdoor, and which one has higher quantities of the terpenes I'm looking for? Those things I do not know. I don't have an answer for, and I don't think any of us has really done enough research to really quantifiably make those statements definitively.

1:04:00BubblemanSkunkman Sam has, and he says, bigger heads have more terpenes if the variety has terpenes. We want all of them.

1:04:08SpeakerRight, I'm saying I've never done it, so he's, you know.

1:04:10BubblemanNo, no, but he has, so he's in the chat room talking with us and he's telling, he did this for 35 plus years and had a lab and had the greenhouse and Did all the breeding and the growing and I wish he was in here actually talking rather than just typing things into the chat room because he has such a valid perspective in the sense that he's potentially forgotten more about cannabis than most of us collectively know.

1:04:37BubblemanBut aside from that, just that he's done such an incredible amount of work that his perspective I find is always valuable in these conversations.

1:04:47SpeakerI agree. And I think something else we need to keep in mind too is just because there's a high terpene concentration does not mean it's a good terpene concentration. I see people always touting, oh, I got a 10% terpene result or this. Yeah, and I smoked that shit and it smelled like crap, tasted like crap. And it was 10% crap terpenes. So, I mean, high terpenes doesn't mean anything.

1:05:10SpeakerA small percentage of one very volatile and very enjoyable terpene, 1% of that may be considerably more tasty than 10% of a crap terpene. So, this should amuse you then. All legends and all banner awards were done with greenhouse, sun-grown resin. All of them. Every one of them. So it's not just a terpene thing. It's the amount of yield of those resins. So a banner grown under the sun in controlled greenhouse is going to yield 20%, 24%, whereas something indoor.

1:05:54SpeakerEverybody that's been fresh frozen yields on bubble hash. It's like one of the craziest things ever to me because everybody, So, you know, that equates, like, whatever your dry-out percentage is. If you've grown wheat a lot, you'll know that it changes every round. The mass of the wheat changes every round. You can't say that, oh, that was an 800-gram light, or that was an 800-gram plant, and it yielded 100 grams of bubble, and now that makes it 20%.

1:06:21SpeakerYou've got to, you've got, like, I literally weighed five different strains because I had some materials I wanted to run fresh frozen. I took 40 grams of wet material and then dried it out, and the difference was over 15%, you know, in terms of dry out weight. It was like one of the smaller things went from 40 grams down to 6 grams, and one of the bigger things went from 40 grams down to 12.

1:06:46SpeakerI mean, you're talking huge differences in yield per gram there. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I'm just saying when you, you know, like you look at the bags, when Bubble Man and I run somebody's bubble, You look at the bags, you pull them out, and you're like, okay, wow, your 90 did great, or your 120 banged out. But if you see stuff like 25, and you don't see any 73 or 90 or 120, these are ways to read people's resin.

1:07:12SpeakerAnd so same thing with a plant. And so what I'm telling you is that you should get that experience with utilizing the sun in some capacity, because when you do that, you're going to see bigger heads in all categories, Whatever those strains are going to carry, they're going to carry through on terpenes. They might not have as many heads as you would see indoors because there's a lot of smaller ones developing all the time with that type of intensity, but you'll get bigger ones.

1:07:40SpeakerIt's kind of like growing a certain variety of grape. You can look at grapes the way they're grown. There's some that are grown really small and a whole bunch of them on their bushels. Some of them are just bigger and spread out. That's all I'm saying is that That's what I noticed with the outdoor. And all of the resin that I'm utilizing now, I don't really use fresh frozen for anything anymore.

1:08:06SpeakerBecause what I notice is, whether it's rosin, full melt, or whatever it is, that head itself has to cure out. The resin has to cure if you want stable end products. For live resin and VHO and things like that, sure. I mean, fresh frozen is awesome and great like that. I'm talking about... To break onto the stability thing, I mean, you know, we're seeing, you know, with the freeze-dried hash, I mean, it's not curing stability by any means.

1:08:39SpeakerIn fact, it's like, You know, if you do fresh frozen runs and then use the freeze dryer, it pulls all the water out. That's for sure. I mean, that's what it's designed to do and the shit is like dry sift when it comes out. But we also have to keep in mind that if you take a fresh frozen plant and you remove it from the plant and it doesn't degrade or dry out, oxidize or cure anything at all, if you remove the water perfectly from that, shouldn't that resin be just like it was on the plant?

1:09:11SpeakerRight? It's going to be sticky and kind of wet and all that stuff. So like stability to me is almost like chasing a dragon of how do you dry your weed or this kind of weed in a certain way so that it doesn't degrade quickly. And I kind of liken it to fruits or meats or stuff like that. It's like you got to keep that shit in the freezer or in the refrigerator or it spoils.

1:09:34SpeakerAnd some things are more susceptible to spoilage than others. Yeah, I agree. I do like the freeze dry. I do like the freeze dry as well. I do something similar to that, but I created my own vac dry system with that recently. But yeah, I agree with you. I mean, it's about getting the water out, but when their heads are really young and they're still, and you've got to look at, so what I've seen is when you're looking at the terpenes inside that head while it's still on the stalk in its fresh, frozen state until it cures out, and if you look at We're going to go ahead and get started in about a minute or so.

1:10:32SpeakerThere's a, just like when you cut the plant, it has an exposure, water has to get out, and chlorophyll gets out, and that's why you cure your bud before you smoke it. Same thing kind of with the heads that I'm noticing. On particular products, not every product, but certain products that I'm working with, I find it, I find it to be a little more stable when the heads are cured.

1:10:53SpeakerYeah, absolutely, Will. I mean, that's what the curing process is there for, right, is you're trying to make the The product dry and possible to transport without refrigeration. Just like if you chop a plant down fresh, wet, you can't put it in a bag for more than an hour before it's going to degrade, you know, really. But you hang it and dry it, it's, you know, we're drying it so that it has a low moisture content so that, you know, organizms can't live on it and then degrade it.

1:11:21BubblemanI would add one other thing that we're not only drying it, but as you were mentioning, there are terpenes that potentially are not the ones that we want, and I find often these are the most volatile, the ones that are just ready to go, the ones you lose in the cure. And it's like certain terpenes, once they're lost, it releases a much smoother, more enjoyable terpene profile that was being masked Thank you so much for joining us.

1:12:18BubblemanBut that potentially breeds terpene profiles, so those ones weren't even present.

1:12:25SpeakerI agree. And there are some strains that have terpene profiles that get completely lost in the drying process, and you never get them back. And those strains done fresh frozen are, even though they're a little bit more caustic, like you're saying, make you explode when you take a toke of it. Those terpenes, those are some of the terpenes I chase personally. Those flavors, those ones that are hard to find, that degrade very quickly, dry out when you dry the plant.

1:12:52SpeakerWell, if we can capture those and not cure that flavor out but still remove the water, I'm a pretty happy guy because the way the plant smells when it's growing is definitely something I like experiencing, you know.

1:13:05BubblemanWell, you need to track down Indra somewhere in the U.S. because he's got that cryogenic method, and he claims to be one of the only people that is able to extract super terpenes, the terpenes that are literally lost in every extraction process. He maintains them with his, you know, minus 51 or minus 81, whatever the temperatures are that he works at. And it's quite a, I mean, I haven't seen the resin myself, but I've seen him defat hemp seed Thank you for joining us.

1:13:54BubblemanThank you for watching.

1:14:23SpeakerWith the freeze dryer process, I haven't done personally a lot of fresh frozen with it. My good friend Kush for Breakfast has and he's gotten it down. He got the machine, he was reprogramming the machine for a week or two and the freeze dryer goes to negative 40. So I mean you harvest the plant, goes straight in, goes into your freezer and then gets washed. The thing goes to negative 40 and then it has the quote unquote heating process where it You know, it sublimates the water, right, through a vacuum and a very, very light heat to get it to sublimate, right?

1:15:00SpeakerThe heat doesn't ever actually reach your product. It's just helping the water sublimate, right? But what's interesting is that, so he's doing fresh frozen. It's literally coming out of the freeze dryer looking like dry sift, right? I mean, just, you know, it hasn't been touched by anything. That stuff, if you keep it frozen, stays like dry sift, feels dry, but as soon as you get something of temperature to it, it immediately sticks to you.

1:15:31SpeakerIt's so sticky and gummy because it literally has never been cured. It came off the plant, was removed of its water, and then came out of the machine. It's never been cured. Those terpenes have never been cured out or dried out of that material. It's some of the best hash I've ever smoked, period. His OG and his cookies, fresh frozen, which are a couple strains in my experience that lose a lot of highly volatile terpenes in the drying process and are hard to get back or hard to experience once it's dry, OG and cookies in particular, and it's by far some of the best hash I've ever smoked.

1:16:06SpeakerYou know, Cush for Breakfast cookies and all that fresh frozen, freeze dried, no cure. Does it make me choke and blow up if I try and take a big hit like I would off of some cured material? Absolutely. It blows you up. It tastes so good and it's so potent. It's hard to argue when you experience it.

1:16:29BubblemanSpeaking of tasty and potent, I want to welcome Breeder Steve to the room. Thanks for making it up, Steve.

1:16:37Breeder SteveMy pleasure, man. Thanks for having me, for sure. I lurked the one time you had Matula on. That was pretty interesting.

1:16:46BubblemanYeah, we're always happy to have different people on and come share the vibes. Probably that was Lester actually that time. We haven't had Rafi on yet, but it would be great to have him on. Still trying to get tons of people on, man. I've been trying to get you on for a good long time and tell us some old stories and tell us what's going on in Breeders Steve's world.

1:17:09Breeder SteveWell, It's not a lot new, just puttering along in the shadows and expecting things to change here and get much more open soon. So definitely hoping they move the right direction as they do so.

1:17:29BubblemanYeah, well it definitely, it feels like it's going to happen. We were talking to Dana Larson a little bit about that earlier on, just sort of his perspective on what he thinks is happening. It seems as though, I mean all politicians seem to be liars, but I guess the one thing we have going for ours is that he sort of has this legacy and his father and his, you know, both his father and his brother have passed on.

1:17:50BubblemanHis brother died in an avalanche and his father's passed away some years now. The legacy of his name could be potentially more important than just selling out the country, kind of seemingly the way Harper did. It seemed to be pretty much exactly what Harper was doing. So I hope that Trudeau respects his family name and feels that he's got to do something good for Canada.

1:18:17MrHis brother was one of the possession charges when he died in that... That's right. Yeah, he had been charged with possession, and certainly Trudeau was a snowboarder. I think he smoked a fair bit of weed himself.

1:18:32BubblemanI don't think it's a far jump, that's for sure. The people are saying, when are you going to breed some more seeds? When are you going to produce the LUI, the Blockhead, the Sweet Tooth, the Legends Ultimate Indica?

1:18:49Breeder SteveDamn. Once it's legal to do it and ship direct.

1:18:56BubblemanThat's the perfect world right there. You know, not many people really think about that aspect of it. I guess that's a whole, I mean, anytime we've brought seeds into the country, into Canada, we had to do it with Health Canada licenses, even for low THC hemp seeds. So I guess it'll just be like any other business. Once they open the doors for all of this, obviously they're going to have to let companies sell clones and And sell seeds.

1:19:22Breeder SteveWell, if people are allowed to grow their own, which of course they must be, then they're going to like sorting through seed catalogs just like with tomatoes or anything else.

1:19:33BubblemanWell, I was surprised that they allowed the LPs to order seeds when really, how could it be legal to bring seeds from another country into Canada without a special Import license, and no one was given import licenses. LPs were given 60, no sorry, 90 days, three months, to register and produce as many strains as they wanted to grow, because at the end of that, they wouldn't be allowed to bring in new genetics.

1:20:01BubblemanIs that how you know it, Dana?

1:20:03Breeder SteveYes, I heard something to that effect.

1:20:06BubblemanRight. And wasn't there one guy who was doing a clone bank that was going to be able to potentially sell clones to all the LPs?

1:20:15Breeder SteveYeah, I suspect there was.

1:20:18BubblemanYeah, it's too bad that I never saw that come to fruition, because that seemed like the greatest idea that I'd heard so far. Everyone was just trying to go for an LP license, but then this dude was just like, I'm just going to get like 350 strains registered, and I'll just have, I'll be the clone bank. It sure would be, that'd be a nice position to be the clone bank.

1:20:39Breeder SteveYeah, but there's going to be, you know, free enterprise is everything, so there's got to be Let's talk a little bit about Switzerland because that was like just some of the most incredible times like

1:21:10BubblemanWhat was that, 2000, 2001, that they just sort of decided that they were going to, I don't know, like, was it even announced? How did people know in Switzerland all of a sudden you could just plant acreages of fields and harvest it?

1:21:25Breeder SteveI don't know what the, who first cottoned on to it. Obviously somebody thought about it and had a look at the books and said it's not prohibited per se, but there was a canton by canton statement And of harassment policy perhaps. Some would allow it in their cantons and some wouldn't. So the ones that were open had... Thank you for joining us.

1:22:18BubblemanI was just like, it was like 2002 maybe.

1:22:22EtienneMaybe 2000.

1:22:27BubblemanOh sorry, I was cutting out. Anyway, I'll never forget that. Getting those buds cut out, you know, those sweet tooth and all those beautiful plants you had in those tunnels.

1:22:36Breeder SteveYeah, I won't forget the look on your face.

1:22:38EtienneThat was awesome. Breeders Steve, what was the first strain that you grew?

1:22:47Breeder SteveThe first strain that I ever grew was from Jamaican seed that I'd collected. What year? That would have been... I was 18. It was quite a long time ago. I'm trying to think about that.

1:23:05BubblemanIt would be... 90, 91?

1:23:10Breeder SteveEnd of the 80s, like 89 maybe. Yeah, dude. And that was, I called out, like we planted about 2,000 Jamaican seeds I had in a secret container from nice Jamaican brickweed we used to get. And I had them all started at a friend's place in the country and his mom would water all the little ones. And then I came out later when they were about knee high and starting to show and there were just tons of them, little four inch pots in a section of her garden.

1:23:40Breeder SteveAnd I said, I'm just going to take one. There was one that was Very stocky female that was just ahead of everything else and I was like, I'll just take that one. And I put it in a big hole of compost and a big mix of organic goodies and near a creek near my house. Man, and it had the full on rainbow of pistols like it was purple and pink and magenta and yellowy pistols.

1:24:07Breeder SteveIt had just incredible sativa flowers. Southern Ontario where I was growing pistols Was it in the ground or in pots? Yeah, right in the ground, right in the ground. It was great. And you hardly had the water back there, but a few times you'd have to go out in the water, and it was near this creek that is hiked through, and it was just beautiful. I'd played around there since I was a little kid, knew it like the back of my hand, and every summer after that, next year I put Northern Lights in that same spot.

1:24:35EtienneHow tall did that first crop get, just out of curiosity?

1:24:37Breeder SteveIt was six feet. Six feet.

1:24:44Breeder SteveYeah, the buds were snug enough, but they were totally sativa. When I saw a picture recently of somebody shot from a field in Jamaica, and I was like, spitting image, like the full, really magento tips, and very distinctive flavor and aroma. That blew me away to pull that Jamaican off there the first year, but it was just because I took the best one out of 2,000 feet, you know?

1:25:07Breeder SteveI'm sure the rest of them didn't even finish, right? But I was able to just say, I'm only going to take one of those out, you know, and it was the most promising one. So I love starting from seed and finding champions right from the beginning because you couldn't even order seeds back then. You had to save them from holidays or whatever you came across if you liked it.

1:25:30BubblemanSo your basic growing career started as a selector. You were selected right from the start. No one gave you a bunch of clones.

1:25:41Breeder SteveNo, that's right.

1:25:43BubblemanThat's awesome. So how long before you actually started like, okay, now I'm going to breed. I want to produce my own seeds from that first crop.

1:25:52Breeder SteveWell, each year, with the exception of the first one because I didn't keep any pollen, but each year after that, I made sure I kept a mail to tag a little bit of pollen on a bottom branch or two, like a bag of bottom branch or two, just to save seed because you really couldn't get any easily then. So everybody you met that smoked this super kind bud like that Northern Lights the next year, they all wanted to buy something.

1:26:18Breeder SteveI said, I can't sell it because it's irreplaceable, right? So the The thing I will do is give you 20 seeds and a one-page instruction on how to mix up some good organic soil and how to choose a location and go and plant your own. And I just always made a few extra seeds because I always wanted to encourage people to grow their own. And I knew as I was going through university I always wanted to move to B.C.

1:26:47Breeder Steveafterwards and I knew B.C. was also a hot spot of Genetics, there's so many people growing, the most favorable conditions in a way to grow. So it was a real crossroads of strength. So when I first got to Vancouver, I just started collecting everything I could get my hands on. Anybody that was selling clones, I would always just say, yeah, I'll take a couple of whatever you got and just collect everything I could find and keep running them all side by side.

1:27:19Breeder SteveAnd I had like all of BC in a room downstairs in my basement. It was fun. So you'd always be picking out ones you like for various reasons. And I just kept making the beans and really enjoying that. More so than I would just producing weight, you know.

1:27:38BubblemanAbsolutely. No, that's definitely when I met you was when you moved to BC. I think you moved in maybe 94, 95, and then I came around 96. I think you'd already been in BC for at least a couple of years by the time I moved here.

1:27:52Breeder SteveYeah, I came out in 94. Okay, yeah, there we go.

1:27:56BubblemanYeah, I'll never forget definitely some of those old school, I mean it's still to this day some of them are in my garden, you know, the sweet skunk obviously is in the top five list for sure. That grapefruit from back in the day, the sweet skunk.

1:28:13Breeder SteveYeah, the sweet skunk was in 94, that was one of the first ones I made there. I think that was my second run of seeds was the sweet skunk.

1:28:24BubblemanYeah, that's, it's It's never lost its panache for me. I absolutely love that profile.

1:28:30Breeder SteveThat was selected from 500 of the F1 seeds, and there was two recessive sativas, and everything else was mostly indica. And of those two, they were very similar, but I liked the one a bit more, and that was the only one I kept. And I just said, this is such a stunning sativa, and it's out of the blue. It's totally unexpected, a recessive plant. So I thought...

1:28:53Breeder SteveYeah, this is just delicious. And I knew if I just gave the cuttings away to anybody I smoked it with, we would never lose the strain. So it's just why it sort of open sourced it that way, you know, just pass the cuttings around because it is a cutting. You seed it, it's not going to be as stable, right? But it's passing that cutting around is a beautiful thing to do because the more you do that, the more you see it, you know.

1:29:17BubblemanYeah, well, I'll tell you, I gave it away to a good chunk of people that were, you know, all MMAR patients and they were always happy to receive the Sweet Skunk along with Astro Boy and the Congolese and a few other, you know, the East Coast Sour Diesel that I got from my buddy Ro.

1:29:36Breeder SteveI love that Congolese. The Congolese and the Burmas are delicious as well. Oh, yeah. They have the same high notes like that. I love it.

1:29:45BubblemanYeah, they're exotics. I like that, the high notes, exactly. Man, they're so tasty. Hey, I wanted to welcome Marcel into the room as well. He's been all nice and quiet sitting there, dude. Welcome to Hash Church again, bro.

1:30:01Todd MccormickThe Sweet Scott, the Astro Boy, and all these.

1:30:03EtienneI'm glad we're making it out here. Turn the YouTube off. Is there a technical problem? It's kind of hard to hear.

1:30:08MrYeah, it's the YouTube. I like that. It's the YouTube.

1:30:26BubblemanDo you have YouTube on, Marcel? Because I can hear Steve talking on delay, so somewhere on someone's computer, and it must be yours because everyone else was muted at the time.

1:30:36EtienneNope, still going.

1:30:39BubblemanYou've got to turn off YouTube, the YouTube chat where Steve is talking, the chat room that you were in. Somewhere that's going and you just have to mute that box. We've done that on a number of occasions.

1:31:01BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

1:31:23BubblemanSteve seemed to always love that. Like you seemingly couldn't overdose. I mean you did. I think you and Wayne knocked yourself out for a good 18 hours that one time when you did the SIFT, that whole case of... Here, let me unmute you there real quick. I got you on mute.

1:31:44BubblemanTry talking now.

1:31:47BubblemanNo, you're still muted. You'll have to unmute yourself, I think.

1:31:51SpeakerAll right. Is this... There we go.

1:31:55EtienneYes, you're better, Marcel.

1:31:57SpeakerOh my goodness, this is so much better. I think I was listening to two streams at the same time.

1:32:03BubblemanYep, that was awesome, dude. Hey, I was just going to get Steve to answer a quick question that I asked him there.

1:32:08Breeder SteveOkay. At times... We flew to Amsterdam KLM and I asked you to bring me a little, I said bring me like a quarter gram of bubble to munch before I go to the airport. And he actually brought me half a gram, he brought me half a gram of totally transparent milk. And I just said what the hell and I peeled it off and ate it with some champagne and oysters before we went to security.

1:32:36Breeder SteveAnd then I was tripping balls on that flight. I remember you were looking at me and said, you're great. And there was a second I was like not enjoying it. And then I said, what are you worried about? You love to be stoned, you know. But they came by with the water and I was looking at her like she was the princess here to save us. And I was just like, wah, wah, wah.

1:33:00Breeder SteveI couldn't say water because my mouth was so dry. That was a bit much.

1:33:06BubblemanAnd plus, your face had literally melted off your head, and it was like down on your chest. Like you literally had the craziest look.

1:33:17Breeder SteveI totally remember that. And then we go over to the cup, we were flying to the cup, and then on the way back at the end of the week we say, the highest I was all week was on the flight over.

1:33:32BubblemanOh my God, that's how you start a trip with Breeders Steve right there. He's on the plane next to me and I'm literally thinking, I hope he doesn't like just stop breathing because he's breathing.

1:33:43Breeder SteveOh yeah, you started talking about people that had heart attacks and they have to land in Iceland and stuff and I'm just like, just don't say anything. I was freaking out but it didn't last long, I fucking passed out hard and just woke up stoned and skippled.

1:33:59BubblemanStoned in Schiphol. I think many of the panelists here have woken up stoned in Schiphol Airport.

1:34:06EtienneWho is stoned here in Schiphol?

1:34:10BubblemanI'll tell you. What a great airport to be stoned in, though. They got water massage, they got the movie theater, they got the rooftop garden, they got everything in that airport, man. If you've spent enough time in that airport, you quickly realize that it's actually a pretty good airport to be stoned in.

1:34:29EtienneThere's worse. As far as airports go.

1:34:31BubblemanSo what's going on, Marcel? What's new and different on the West Coast down below British Columbia?

1:34:39SpeakerWell, the token economy steps ever forward. And we made another token and had a potluck of productivity where people came out and brought equipment and cut and polished the millefiori into the tokens. So this new edition was created under the same circumstances of people gathering with a desire to see positive change. Yep. And so this is the token that we created.

1:35:18BubblemanNew tokens! I'll show my old token. Boom, bam, boom.

1:35:23SpeakerOh, look at that. Ready to go. Yeah, dude.

1:35:26BubblemanI got my token. So this is the new token.

1:35:30SpeakerYes.

1:35:31BubblemanWhat is it going to say? A starship in every garage?

1:35:33SpeakerIt says a starship in every garage. It has 33 on the bottom. Oh, nice. And then the inside of the star is UV reactive, so you see the full triangle build. So it's...

1:35:57SpeakerSo it's 33 token units, which equates to $330, essentially, as far as what their exchange value is for the program.

1:36:10BubblemanAnd what is it? You guys mostly... It's like people can buy heady glass pipes with that and do other things with that?

1:36:18SpeakerYeah, so essentially anything that I create or that's created at the projects that... That we sponsor with the revenue from the tokens is available in the tokens. So it's kind of like a open source Chuck E. Cheese type situation. So as people exchange into the economy with tokens, it's a one-way path, essentially, where the tokens are then used as trade value. And the concept is that You know, we can trust each other as a community and as individuals, you know, more than we can trust the people that are giving us the dollars.

1:37:05SpeakerSo when we convert the value From these tokens into the dollars, we're essentially creating an investment inside of our group that we can all see the results from. Because when people have benefit from the token economy, then we'll all know because we're exchanging the tokens around.

1:37:32BubblemanThat's wicked.

1:37:34SpeakerSo it's really just like any other complementary currency that people... But instead of being like a geographical area, it's like throughout an industry. And, you know, I'm hoping that my position within that industry is interconnected enough to entice the participation of a wider group of people. You know, because at its core, the objective is to decentralize currency. So if Project 33 can create a cultural meme or tradition that allows people to make an alternative to what the bankers are giving us, then that's something we can all trust in more than we could trust in what they're serving us.

1:38:33SpeakerAmen.

1:38:37SpeakerSo essentially what I'm doing is I'm working with Dan Collins, who's the documentarian that edited Degenerate Art, so he was Slinger's person that he worked with to create the film. And he's going to document it, and the way that I am, I am essentially converting into the sacred economy, so I'm, I'm basically going to refinance into the sacred economy by creating tokens the same way the bank would create a loan for me.

1:39:13SpeakerSo they would just like magically create some like entries in their computer and all this currency would like transfer around and whoever I was getting the, you know, so on and so forth. So when I refinance in, I'm going to Take my equity out of the banking system and put it into these tokens.

1:39:37EtienneWhat happens if you break a token?

1:39:40SpeakerWell, I would think that the program, basically what we're endowing ourselves to do is to create the tokens and maintain them. So if somebody had a broken token and sent it back in, then it would be either repaired or replaced depending on what its collectible value is. The unique thing about the tokens, because they're an art object, is that they have a collectible value and then they have an exchange value.

1:40:15SpeakerSo, you know, because it's a millefiori, if it's a millefiori, it has its own value by the gram, depending on what people think of it. And then as an exchange item within this game, it has a certain value depending on what people think of it. So they basically have two values. And the culture that I want to produce is that we should produce these tokens in order to provide alternatives to financial products that the banks are giving us.

1:40:56SpeakerSo it's basically like somewhat like a culture of crowdfunding. But instead of just like crowdfunding and paying a bunch of money to the crowdfunding website, we're like holding all the value inside of the community and every $100,000 that is created into tokens then like bounces around the community and Creating positive effects. So if I refinance into the sacred economy and pay off my bank and all the rest, then I have an extra $2,500 or so every month that I can put towards helping other people to achieve independence.

1:41:48SpeakerWhether that's by growing food on my land, And serving parties and showing people what's up or maintaining the Starship coin project and continuing to help people to make these tokens. So if we start to look at this work going on to the token economy and if I'm saying I'm going to refinance say half a million dollars and from that what I'm going to do is I'm going to fund operations for a year and pay off my notes And essentially just operate for a year with the end result of having the documentary complete.

1:42:33SpeakerWith the goal of creating another million dollars or so in token economy that's needed. So, essentially, if I'm throwing stuff up and there's only half a million dollars in the original bank and we get people to collect and hold the tokens or do their own commerce with the tokens, so if other people start participating, And sending the tokens around to do trades. They'll be working, but there will be a need for more because the prize wall of the Chuck E. Cheese is ever building and having different and desirable things.

1:43:12SpeakerAnd then, so at the end, the...

1:43:20SpeakerSo as the tokens, when people are able... Excuse me, you guys, I'm...

1:43:30SpeakerAnyhow, so if the tokens become in short supply and people are in need of more tokens, that's when the alternative financial products come in. So if there's a need for another quarter million dollars in products and it can be linked to an artist who is in the process of purchasing a home, then that value can exchange to where it The tokens going into the system become essentially a grant for the home property, but they still have the buying power, and then the artist is sponsored to do a major project onto the token economy, and then there's a bunch more stuff of very unique caliber to put onto for people to exchange back.

1:44:22SpeakerSo it's basically using The agreement to use a token and backing it up with real estate into the community targeted to people who are able to like continue the process forward.

1:44:36HoratioMarcel, I've heard of this concept before in a lot of different independent community funding situations. One thing in your plan that I didn't hear that I've heard used is where you go to the bank and say, look, I'm going to give you $10,000 and what I want you to do, I'm going to tell you the exchange rate and when people bring you this coin, you're going to take from that account and give it out so that you can get your currency on the market like the coupon system.

1:45:03HoratioWe have a store called Canadian Tire and everything they give you back is in their money. And slowly but surely the economy of only your coins, it can get converted by the bank if you're using your money in that account so the bank doesn't have any risk. Like you could use your actual cash in an account to give your coin a value and then when people use it in an economy and need to turn it back into cash, you're the one that defines the exchange rate at the bank because it's coming out of your account.

1:45:30HoratioWould that help get it started and simplify it if it didn't work in the system?

1:45:36SpeakerNo, I mean, to me it's like much more of an idea of an opting out of the system towards something that's resource based or You know, ideally abundance-based, because essentially what we're asking for is like a shift in viewpoint of really feeling like it's important for everyone to have abundance, and that's what the project is about. It's not about helping people get by. It's about helping people to succeed by participating in each other's lives with our own abundance.

1:46:12SpeakerSo it's like a lot of...

1:46:20SpeakerYou know, we're looking for the little bit of extra that people have. Not people to like, I'm trying to dive all in to show that it's possible, but what really makes it work is just a lot of people doing a little bit of trade.

1:46:41SpeakerSo, I'm not sure if that totally answered your question, Horatio. Do you want me to elaborate in a particular way?

1:46:50HoratioWell, no, I totally get it. It's kind of basically to get people to use your money, you would tell the bank the exchange rate. So it's the same value system, but it would be somewhere everyone could see it. Just when I think about financial systems, because they used to do a wooden coin that was like pressed and the key was that people knew that they would always have a value at a bank.

1:47:15HoratioNow it was a one-off bank, but it allowed people to turn it back into money if they decided to opt out of the system. Basically it allows it to work with everybody without basically giving up on it and being, if they get broke.

1:47:29SpeakerWell, these are designed to be operating within the system that we all operate within. So, like, as a group of all of us, we know that these represent the possibility to buy future work that is produced within the framework that these are producing. So you can look at the state of my project or of this project. And assess what you think the future value of the token is based on how many of the tokens are out there and what people are doing or saying with them.

1:48:00SpeakerBut then there's also the actual value as a piece of artwork in dollars. So you have multiple ways to get out of the token economy. It's very much an opt-in or opt-out type of situation. However, the opt-out, because of the nature of the program, involves Opening the circle rather than closing it back in because it's a decentralized.

1:48:27SpeakerSo if when you want to get out, there's basically somebody else looking to get in and that's the easiest avenue for the same thing to work. So it's a lot like buying high-end glass and speculating that the value is going to go up, but you can actually like still be in position to swoop the glass as it's getting made. Because you have the tokens, but the tokens themselves are, you know, one of a hundred or so, and each one is going to be affiliated with a different artist.

1:48:59SpeakerSo you have a lot of different, like, designs and, you know, beauty within each token set. So people are like, you know what, I like this project and I want to collect one of every single token that comes out. You know, if I had a hundred people that did that, then... It would probably mean that the whole project was funded, you know, for, you know, the first year easily.

1:49:32SpeakerSo, you know, it's really like the beauty of this system is that it doesn't take a whole lot of participation in terms of how many people are actually available to participate. So, you know, if we have a small grouping... A small group of us can show very big results, in my opinion, because of the close-in documentation that we're going to do. And because the bar is essentially so low as far as what projects have done in the past, as far as showing what abundance-based lifestyle is capable of.

1:50:14BubblemanInteresting. Definitely interesting things. I know the whole barter and the trade thing. I mean, I know Steve dabbles in that. I'm sure you've got some thoughts on this, Steve. What do you think?

1:50:26Breeder SteveWell, there's a lot of ways to approach these community currencies, local currencies. I absolutely love alternative currency of all, whether it's something as old school as bullion or bitcoin. I have everything in between. I do a lot of business in trade credits. They're typically business to business, so every business has the right to print its own money as far as gift certificates or corporate script go, right?

1:50:54Breeder SteveSo you can monetize these in a circle of business, and it really keeps, it's the most incredible loyalty program of all time, really. It keeps people within their circle, and the circles have rails where they meet. And you can trade across the world. So I can get a hotel room anywhere in Australia with trade credits I've earned in Canada because there's interchanges and clearinghouses for these. The U.S. Department of Commerce says one-third of global trade is cashless.

1:51:34Breeder SteveIt doesn't involve legal tender. We trade more in lawful tender than legal tender because involuntary slavery was made illegal But voluntary slavery was never made illegal. And the involuntary slavery is the legal tender laws. But we have a remedy, and that's while we're forced to accept their monopoly money, we have the right to accept other forms of payment as well. So once we do commerce ourselves and really practice agorism, you know, we can suck the wind out of their sails just by not using their currency.

1:52:12Breeder SteveAnd, uh, I'm a strong believer in that.

1:52:15SpeakerAbsolutely. What I'm hoping to show with this program is that we can actually implement a culture where people are encouraged to partake of the abundance by creating a personal type of currency in this refinancing type of deal. What we need to do is create a culture so people can like participate in these projects and help them to succeed and be the watchdogs to make sure that they succeed because of the investment that everyone's making.

1:52:47SpeakerBut to like actually like get to that decentralized currency down to the cellular level where we're back to the regular IOU system which is... Yeah, exactly.

1:53:00Breeder SteveSend me an email, man. Send me an email and I'll share some other work with you.

1:53:04BubblemanI was going to say, it would be cool if you could, yeah, like, I like the idea of you guys two connecting about this and potentially, I know, Steve, you have a lot of information that could potentially help Marcel.

1:53:15Breeder SteveI've built something like that for eight years. It's different. It's not exactly the same, but you'll find it very practical. It's getting very widely used right now. Heck, yeah. I've got an app. We've got an app for it, and it's very convenient. Nice, yeah. You can look at it as this. You can get the houses on trade, you know?

1:53:36SpeakerYeah. Yeah, interesting. Yeah.

1:53:42BubblemanVery cool, man. Very cool that that conversation erupted in Hash Church. Yeah, that's funny. You know?

1:53:49Breeder SteveSomebody's going to say, throw the money changers out of the church soon.

1:53:53BubblemanWell, I think that when you drop that number, Steve, that a third of trade is done cashless. Like, that is unbelievable.

1:54:01Breeder SteveYeah, that's right. And it's not just, you know, the chicken for the fish. It's fighter jets for palm oil. It's huge trades between countries, but there's tons of corporate ones. The biggest trade, I think, to date, sort of corporate to government was Pepsi-Cola wanted into Russia. The Russians wanted to sell Pepsi-Cola, not Coca-Cola. And they couldn't pay in rubles because they're worth nothing at the time. And What they did was they paid four tankers of vodka, shipped to New York, keep the tankers, you know, no deposit on the tankers, and that vodka stole at Naya.

1:54:42Breeder SteveSo they built that, it was a Pepsi trade for vodka, and it became Stole at Naya, and they trade vodka or Pepsi for their media, right? The media arbitrage is like a cornerstone of corporate barter. So it's a It's fascinating, the world of opportunity there that most people aren't even aware of, you know. Wow. The monopoly money, like, it restricts trade, you know, the liquidity's not always there, and it's broke by design.

1:55:11Breeder SteveIt's issued with interest, the interest never circulates, every invoice has interest, but none of that interest has ever entered circulation. It's mathematically impossible to repay. It creates debt slavery, that's the definition of usury. So you set up mutual credit systems with zero interest. You have an equal amount of accounts in surplus and deficit. So they should always cancel out. That's how you know you've got a balanced economy.

1:55:38Breeder SteveAnd that's the ledger. And there's many third-party record keepers that keep this double-entry bookkeeping for just debits and credits and trades. And they can mirror any currency. So you could have virtual euros or virtual US dollars or virtual Bitcoin, virtual gold, whatever you want to price stuff in and think in, the exchanges will translate on the back or do the exchange rate. But it just mirrors the national currency while slightly mocking it.

1:56:10SpeakerI think it's a really cool idea and everything. I just wanted to ask you a question about it. So I like it better than type of bitcoins because those are like virtually created by logarithms that are unlocking things and miners and stuff like that. Where this is like a physical object that possesses value. Is this something that, are these coins worth like $10,000, $20,000, $50,000? Are they being stored in a certain way?

1:56:41Breeder SteveNo, no, we don't bring them. They're just, they're digital. They're all digital.

1:56:46SpeakerNo, I'm talking about Marcel's coin.

1:56:49Breeder SteveOh yeah, with Marcel's, yeah, real physical tokens. So my tokens are...

1:56:55SpeakerOkay, my tokens are this...

1:57:04SpeakerThey're an art object. So, I mean, they're just sitting here in cases in my house, essentially. But so far there's been 100 tokens created of the original design like Mark has and 100 tokens in the 33 tokens. So that's a total of 133,000 in tokens that's been created. Of the 70 or so tokens in the series that Mark has, those have primarily been gifted. To different people who they're essentially an invitation to participate in the project.

1:57:48SpeakerSo there's those and then this so I have probably about 30 of those left and the I have almost all of the 33 tokens here now so that's about 100 of those. So that's the state of What's available for the token economy right now? Now, as far as the things that you could exchange from the token economy, I have probably like six or seven pieces that I'm quoting people in token units.

1:58:18EtienneSo I have a... Marcel, I have a question for a second. The Chinese have ripped off absolutely every glass object anybody has put out, and not necessarily to a T, but can... Somebody also not knock off these coins?

1:58:37SpeakerWell, I mean, realiztically, the amount of work and effort that goes into them is going to prohibit a lot of that. Like, if you're going to knock off a $300 token and it costs you $50 or $60 just to, like, try and make something to see if it'll pass, you know, I don't think that you're... You know, I think that you could have people having low value tokens in the sense that they've created something that people don't recognize as having as much value as they say it has.

1:59:11SpeakerYou know, I think that's kind of the, you know, my intention with the system is to make people know what tokens are out there. The tokens are primarily one of a hundred series, and I'm using a lot of volunteer labor and participation so we can make lavish slabs of tokens.

1:59:27EtienneAre they numbered?

1:59:29SpeakerI have, in Mark's series, I have a high-res photo of each one, and they have kind of a serial number. If it hasn't worn off the back of your gem case, Mark, you probably can read it. It's like... I think having the serial number or a number inside, yeah, inside the actual glass, something that's signature, and then having a vault, you know, like something that has a certification signature vault, and then you got the Marcel Bank.

1:59:59SpeakerI mean, that would be pretty awesome. It would be a cool interactive art piece. Honestly, I'm more interested in having the next party and spreading more ideas about being aware of currency and aware of the issues that it creates in our personal lives.

2:00:19EtienneI understand that and respect it. However, there are unscrupulous people out there, and if I read in the comments, if somebody tricks somebody in the community into accepting their fake Chinese glass token in, then you're already breaking that economy. So that's why I was asking if the coins were specifically numbered so that there's some sort of Differentiation that it can actually attest to its reality as they play the rip-off.

2:00:48EtienneAnd they go rip it off as if they know how to do it, the Chinese will. No offense to China.

2:00:53SpeakerI don't think that's really quite a, it's not really that possible in my opinion. There's the high-end millefiori that do exist are worth a lot of money. Especially in slab sizes like this, but because of the, like, way they're created and how limited and how much skill is required, they're not easily copied. So, like, art itself has always had a counterfeit market, but it only, it only, you know, it doesn't, people don't really trade in it because we're all smart enough to notice the counterfeits for the most part, especially in art, and I think the Millie would be the same way because they're, it's, There's small handmade objects still.

2:01:36BubblemanYeah, so what he's kind of saying, ATN, is that Mille Fiore's art pieces already exist that sell for big money, and China's not.

2:01:44EtienneI understand. I worked in a glass shop. I totally understand that. However, Knock-offs happen and people are going to, if something is said, because, look, I was a printmaker and lithographer. We were all watched and had to be checked because of our ability to actually do the art and know how to actually do the printmaking. So with any economy or any other kind of economy, even when we do coupons, et cetera, they're dated, they're timed, they're stamped so that they can't just always just come back in or people can't just copy and make their own.

2:02:18EtienneSo My concern is across, I've had to deal with it in my own business, so I like and I understand and respect what you're trying to do. I'm just trying to make sure you've considered all those angles because, like, you know, glass is one thing and economy understanding is another thing, but the rip-offs that people are out there, the people that have ripped off your ideas, etc., so...

2:02:46SpeakerThis cultural meme that we're trying to create, which is that if somebody wants to knock it off, all they have to do is play ball by the rules we all agree on, and they're off to the races, and the world's a better place for it.

2:03:02SpeakerSo, you know, if I inspire someone that's not part of the program, because essentially... What I'm going to do in January is I'm going to bring in four or five badass artists who I think can pull this program to and I'm going to have them help me complete the work for me to refinance in and in exchange I'm going to help them do their own month long project here to like make their token.

2:03:34SpeakerAnd then so that's the objective when I was talking about creating a million dollars in the token if I had Four people that I was working with, and each of them created a token bank the same as mine. And so we make that here, but they're their tokens. They get the liability and the benefit from the tokens. So that's essentially what this program is supporting, is for this facility here to exist in order to Create these token banks and have the marketing machine to direct that awareness so that people can be spawned to start doing this.

2:04:15SpeakerSo ideally, people in all industries would do this as a widespread way of creating a resource-backed economy by displacing the bankers from our life. One product at a time. Everyone has to buy a financial product to do it the way everyone does it and buy houses. What we're doing here is we're going to say it's in everyone's interest to take a select group of people or a select person one at a time and just fill their vessel and then on to the next person.

2:04:52SpeakerAnd as that happens, each of those people will be endowed to attempt to fill The vessels around them. So it's like a starship in every garage. Let's get the ships out and empower them in a cellular type of way.

2:05:12BubblemanAwesome, dude. Dropping it. Dropping the nollie. I say on that note, I'm ready to have a nice big bong rip.

2:05:21SpeakerYeah, it sounded like Etienne wanted to be your counterfeit security. There you go. Of the Marcel Bank. I mean, that's what I got out of it, that he has your back and he wants to be part of it. I feel, I think that's... He knows counterfeit. Yeah. I love the idea of having security features and different things into the different Millies. So, for instance, on the Winking Millie, there's a UV outline on the eyeball of the heart.

2:05:58SpeakerSo you could, if you had a UV flashlight, you'd be able to check for that. And, again, like, especially with these, I also have a high-res photograph of each one of these.

2:06:11SpeakerFor each one of these original series tokens, I haven't photographed the second series yet. Not every coin. But I love the idea of supporting this through our community because we are already doing this so much with the you grew it, I blew it mentality and the sharing and Passing of all the resources that we do. To me, it's as much about just tracking what's already going on as it is creating something new.

2:06:59BubblemanMuch appreciated for sharing, dude. I'm sure it's given the people in chat a lot to think about.

2:07:08BubblemanIt's always on Hash Church that you'll hear different sort of things, you know. You never know what we're going to hear. I thought Steve was going to come in and talk about Shishkaberry and he talked about economics and bartering.

2:07:21SpeakerThat was awesome. Thank you very much for having me, Mark, and all of you guys. It's a pleasure every time I get to be here.

2:07:30EtienneKeep doing that voodoo that you do and keep, look, the idea and the concept's great, you know. I just want to make sure it's protected so that It's something that can continue to grow, no pun intended or pun intended, just out of safety concern, you know, because that's why, you know, mothership, they etch their glasses, and even for demos, demos are put in so that it is permanently marked a demo accordingly.

2:07:55EtienneSo there's different ways that, you know, things can be marked accordingly, and so much respect that you guys have taken it, and I have respect that you're using the high-end millies, and, you know, so that starts from the initial... Thank you for watching.

2:08:24EtienneAnd it really sparked the idea that to bring back small town America, to bring back the local economy, to support the local economy, we didn't want your big dollars, we wanted to support this. So if you got this here, then you could get your dry cleaning done free on this day or at this time, etc. And it created an economy downtown that really reinvigorated Ithaca and other cities saw that by creating their own economy and by people buying into that economy, But they had to deal with some counterfeits initially, but once they got that dealt with, they still, to my knowledge to this day, still have a very flourishing local economy.

2:09:03EtienneSo it has been proven it can be done. It's just you have to get the people to buy in, and by having that type of security, you have more people that want to buy in. So much respect, Marcel. Keep up the great work.

2:09:15SpeakerThank you, Tim. Thank you. Awesome, guys.

2:09:22SpeakerYou guys ready to go? Yeah, I was going to say, this kind of ties into value. Todd was talking about this earlier, saying about the price of cannabis, this and that coming down. Now, once it gains, the one thing we were talking about earlier, what I think about is in the recreational market, yes, prices drive down and We do that, but when it becomes, when there becomes a value, a medical value to a pharmaceutical company or another industry, that's when they start to, that's what's happening, I see, it's pulling.

2:10:03SpeakerWe've got our grassroots, we've got our individuals, we've got growers growing, we've got our community, and then we've proven that there's medicinal value, and I think our battle's going to start soon. When you talk about the prices and how it's going to affect things, as soon as they grab onto it, fully grab onto it and say, okay, we subscribe to cannabis in the mainstream, I think they're going to drive the prices the other direction at the same time.

2:10:33SpeakerWhat is your thoughts on that as far as the value of cannabis is concerned as a scale of economics where We've got those two industries pulling, Todd.

2:10:48Todd MccormickUnmute. You know, your microphone dropped, Tony, while you were speaking, and it blocked out while you were making that statement, if you wouldn't mind repeating it, to be quite honest.

2:10:59SpeakerOkay. Basically, I agree with the statement you were saying earlier. You know, once it's in the hands of the people and cannabis is in our community and things, it would drive the prices down. But once it Actually has medicinal value, pharmaceutical value where these pharmaceutical companies are going to subscribe to actually using it as medicine in their mainstream. What's your thoughts on them actually driving the price the other direction?

2:11:27SpeakerSo we'll have these two things going on at the same time.

2:11:30Todd MccormickWell, you know, a good friend of ours tried a long time ago to make generic Marinol, which would have been just THC, which is what a lot of us are producing now, you know. THCA is not generic Marinol, basically. And, you know, you're going to see a lot of people like yourself, really. You're a great example, too. You know, expressly separating cannabinoids and terpenes and making them available, you know, for however people want to apply them.

2:11:54Todd MccormickReally, I mean, everybody has an objective pick on how they use them. And I think it's going to be really hard for the Because of people like you and so many others, it's going to be really hard for the pharmaceutical companies to come in and say, hey, we're the only ones that can do this for you. You know, whereas look at, Marinol is technically Dranabinol, which is a synthetic version of THC.

2:12:13Todd MccormickSo they're coming in and they're building you their version of THC and going, here it is, you know, in sesame oil encapsulated in a gel cap, you know, here it is. And now you can come along and say, you know what, actually here it is, I got a kilo of it and it cost me pennies. So it's, They're done in the way that I think they can control it like that, and this is why I'm not afraid of the details going forward, because I think This is inevitably such a difficult crop for them to control.

2:12:40Todd MccormickI mean, I started off my career growing in my grandma's closet. She didn't even catch me for a year. I mean, that's the reality of cannabis. I mean, and then when she saw that I grew weed, she tried it one spring, and I got paranoid and cut down her pot, you know, because it was around the house, you know. But, you know, the truth is that anyone can do this.

2:13:01Todd MccormickI think when it's worth pennies, this whole conversation is upside down. The whole conversation, you know?

2:13:08SpeakerSo that's good.

2:13:11MrI want to say something about that, too, because I've heard that, and I think that when marijuana is really, is that farmers can grow it by the hectare or by the hectares, you're not going to get perfectly manicured buds out of that, but you can get large quantities of CBD and THC, all the flavonoids and terpenoids, and mix them all up however you like, produce it for very, very low cost.

2:13:35MrAnd I think there probably will be, so the more expensive pharmaceutical products available, possibly that will be what your healthcare plan will cover. So those options will be there. I think for a lot of people, they're going to choose to get it from their friend or from somebody themselves if it's going to be that expensive to get it. Because we know that high potency cannabis extracts are not very hard to make.

2:13:59MrAnd if it was legal, it would be very, very cheap to produce. So I also see a downward trend in prices. But I also think that people who want to legalize a property or op-ed, so they're going to want to put rules in place that try to maximize their profit But their competition with those rules I don't think are really going to work. I mean it's very hard to legalize it and say you can't grow your own and we're going to sell it to you for 20 bucks a gram.

2:14:24MrThat's still prohibition then and that's not really going to work. So that's my vision but I do think they're going to try to control it.

2:14:31Todd MccormickI honestly thought in Ohio that they could, if it passed and you give all the people the confidence of feeling like they don't get arrested, I feel like You know, not like it's cancer, but it's such a change in consciousness that everybody starts to do it. Everybody starts, everybody's got bulk material, everyone's trying to process it, everybody starts to play with it, and the whole conversation gets placed upside down.

2:14:56Todd MccormickYou know, so, you know, people were worried about corporate marijuana, and my thing was, God, you could grow your own shit two or three crops before the corporate weed was even on the shelf.

2:15:08Breeder SteveYou've got to forgive it a lot later. Wine or tobacco business, you know, because people can grow their own grapes and make their own wine. They can grow their own tobacco and roll their own cigars. But there's going to be big companies on one end of it, and then there'll be boutique everywhere in between, you know. And when it's wide open legal and you can grow it in fields and harvest it with massive machinery and process it with massive machinery, Clean organic rosin will be a buck a gram, you know?

2:15:42EtienneIt's like any other agricultural crop. That's right, yes. It's not a race to the bottom. It's not a race to a top. Yes, we're supporting a false economy, but even this false economy over the last 16 years that we've been doing it, we've steadily brought the price down. Absolutely.

2:15:59SpeakerAnd not only that, in the last couple of years, we aren't setting it.

2:16:02EtienneThey're coming in and setting the price. So the It's fascinating, one, the economy itself and the false economy, but I agree that more people will be growing it, but at the same time, a lot of people are lazy and want other people to grow it for them. When I was in Amsterdam, what surprised me when I was in line watching people was how many people were buying pre-rolled joints.

2:16:25EtienneDutch people buying pre-rolled joints. What do you think the...

2:16:51SpeakerThe floor is going to be, I always, I mean, as low as we could grow it and project it even on large scale, we were always around 340 to 500 a pound. I'm talking large scale. That's less, you know, less than a dollar a gram to produce, say, greenhouse or sun-grown really well-controlled.

2:17:09EtienneWell, I could have, I could actually go out and actually smoke the crop and actually see what's actually transpiring, which I can't even really do now. I could do it with a small handful, but It'll be like real business farmers that do it right now. You know, Rouse has their person who goes and buys their apples. I go to your apple orchard and I say and look and taste and say, these are good apples.

2:17:30EtienneOkay, let's send it off to testing. Make sure it all passes everything. Boom. It passes. Then we go to market and that's what's going to happen. Right now we're dealing with these This false situation again because of the prohibition where you're coming to me to buy it but in the future it's going to change to be distributors where I'm buying from the distributor and so the manufacturer has to go to the distributor and then the distributor and I deal directly with them and so They're only going to be dealing with bids, and the bids are going to go down over time.

2:18:00EtienneIt's like any other agricultural crop. I have no idea where that's going to go down. Technology, you're going to see maximization of seeds. You're going to see also maximization of manufacturing products for cannabis. So all that's also the prices of production is going to come down as well over time as technology is available today. And on that mass production scale, look, if I can go into any drugstore and buy plant food, well, if I can then go into any drugstore and buy cannabis plant food, okay, then that's a whole other different type of economy and scale there that we're talking about.

2:18:40EtienneBut still, not every patient can grow. Not everybody's going to want to grow. Some people are going to want to come and best you, Breeders Steve, and they're going to want to best everybody. Archive Seed, they're going to want to best everybody, so they're going to take it up and take it seriously, but that's a lot of money. That's a lot of time. That's a lot of energy.

2:19:01EtiennePeople will try and still will be there, but at the same time, people will want product, and it's only going to come down.

2:19:09BubblemanI think more importantly, it's an olfactory thing. Not everyone has that olfactory that has that ability to sense those flavors and those tastes and be able to take In that plant profile and bioassay, all my favorite breeders that produce seeds were all really heavy smokers. They all liked extracts and would smoke in almost any ability that they could, and it seemed like a very important factor if what you're doing is choosing strains for their phenotypes You'd obviously want to know what those phenotypes, how they affect you, and that's a direct relationship that seems to be with all the best breeders.

2:19:59Breeder SteveYou know, I think you're going to see it field grown, and the cannabinoids will be a byproduct of industrial hemp production. We'll be growing oil instead of digging up the oil sands. You know, they could be growing so much you can do with hemp as we all know. But there's no need to have it restricted to low THC plants anymore. Once it's legal, then the bulk of cannabinoids will be harvested like corn oil.

2:20:24Breeder SteveLike, there'll be just so bloody much of it, you'll only grow it for decoration in your yard, you know? Just because you'd love to have some plants around. I agree. You can have opium poppies all over the end of your driveway and nobody says boo. So they don't tell you you can't grow those for decoration and they have to be locked up or some kid could make poppy tea.

2:20:46Breeder SteveIt's illegal to make poppy tea, but still, you can grow poppies all over your front yard. So cannabis has to be at least that way. What's that?

2:20:55MrIf a cop comes by and sees that you've scored all the poppies in your front lawn, and then you're screaming...

2:21:01Breeder SteveIf you score them, you've got a problem, but you harvest most of the posts like drying. You don't have to score poppies to harvest 80% of those. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, it's just that it's such a double standard when they say you can't grow pot in your front yard or whatever because you can have poppies. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to have poppies. I'm saying it should be so easily accessible and inexpensive that it's not even exciting for the average person anymore.

2:21:31Breeder SteveKids aren't going to be interested in it if it's like oregano on the shelf, you know.

2:21:36SpeakerI agree with what you're saying because if you look in California where everyone grows 400 gallon, 200 gallon outside, you're growing more stock and more plant-based than you are buds. Even though there's a lot of buds there, think about all the stock, all the roots, especially the stock though. That stock has the same potential as hemp. That's right, yeah.

2:22:01Breeder SteveMight as well be a high THC hemp field, your high CBD hemp fields. You can have cannabinoid rich hemp now, the way I see it. That's what I'm gearing up for. I'm more interested in farming it like corn, but still organic growing. Everything will be mono-anxious because you can't have the males falling down. They get into the way of the harvesting. They die off sooner. So it'll be Cannabinoid rich monoecious strains in fields and the resin will be the byproduct.

2:22:31Breeder SteveYou'll still, like you would with wine, you might want to have a Nepali import or Lebanese import if you like your hash flavors. It's still going to taste different than Idaho or Saskatchewan, you know, even with the same strains. It's just going to be beyond what we can imagine at some point. It has to be because they can't Step on our rights to enjoy it forever and to take massive benefit from it.

2:22:59Breeder SteveWhenever the government imposes quotas, they're causing that artificial scarcity. There's no benefit to that, you know? It's better it's just wide open until it's where it can be, you know? There's nothing wrong with it growing in ditches and parks and people going out and rubbing it. You don't have to have it behind barbed wire and Underlights. It's okay to have underlights. You like growing indoors? But I would way rather have outdoors.

2:23:28SpeakerSo it sounds like 2016 you guys are basically saying overgrowing the nation is working. Right?

2:23:35Breeder SteveWe'll hope so. I don't really know.

2:23:38SpeakerTodd feels the advantage is already ours.

2:23:42Breeder SteveAnd that's a good thing.

2:23:44SpeakerThere's only one problem with that. The government doesn't want that to happen. Because they lose their tax revenue. If weed's a dollar a gram, then how much money do they make now? I mean, up here in Oregon, or in Oregon, they're going to charge 25%, in Washington they charge 37%, right? What's California going to be? They don't want weed to go down, so there's really only three things they can do, and this is three things that we do with almost any agricultural commodity, and these are the only possible things you can do to artificially stimulate Overproduction or to prevent agricultural collapse.

2:24:20SpeakerThat's government subsidies, so they give you money to not grow shit, right? You create like an artificial consumption, like we put 10% ethanol in all our fuel in the U.S. That's from corn, right? So that stimulates the corn economy, right? The other one is to somehow like Well, and the last one is to either like what's happening in Colorado where they imposed pesticide regulations, and that is having impact right now.

2:24:55SpeakerThey'll get over that, but that's just right now government imposition or regulation legislation that imposes that. And like here in Washington, the one thing they're doing, and also in Oregon, is they're capping square footage. And that's the other thing is they can, if you cap the supply, then it'll, you know, artificially inflate the price and keep it where Prohibition left it. So they get all their tax money.

2:25:21Breeder SteveWell, there's only so much money out there for them to tax, so they're going to get it one way or the other. You know, if you don't spend it all on weed, you're going to spend more on concerts or something like that.

2:25:33Todd MccormickWell, I'd like to point one thing out, too. Unlike tobacco, unlike whiskey, unlike wine... You know, it's easy to grow cannabis in a closet and have a really good result, you know. I mean, when I was a teenager, I was super happy with the pot I was growing myself, partly out of pride that I grew it myself, you know, partly out of the fact that I was getting it cured properly and drying it just how I liked it and I could smell those terpenes and experience what it was like fresh.

2:25:59Todd MccormickAnd when you buy a bag of weed, a lot of that's lost. So to grow it yourself, there's really a lot of beauty in it, a lot of elements that can't be bought in bags.

2:26:10Breeder SteveYou've never even been high until you've grown your own, you know? You've been stoned before, but you've never been high.

2:26:17Todd MccormickBut I told you, you know, Steve, at Posse, we always thought the best pot you'll ever smoke is the pot you grow yourself.

2:26:23Breeder SteveAbsolutely, 100%.

2:26:25MrBut there's always going to be a market for that $20 grow, but it's not going to be us, because we're all hardcores who smoke a ton of weed. None of us are paying retail for our pot now, because we'd go bankrupt if we were paying $10, $12 a gram for every fucking gram we smoked, right? But... Thanks for watching.

2:27:01MrThank you for watching.

2:27:30SpeakerEspecially if you can add the entertainment factor, like you said, restaurants and add events and whatever else. That'll definitely bring the price way up.

2:27:38MrIf you just need a few puffs in your soup for the night or for the weekend or whatever, then you don't care. There's going to be a lot of different price points.

2:27:46SpeakerWell, and the one thing I was going to say in Colorado that I noticed since, you've got to remember, they look at these as experiments. The reason why they're experiments is because they've been handed a new instrument. And that instrument's like a new keyboard, but it's different. And they've got to push keys to find out different sounds. So like what Fletch was saying is exactly what's happening, is that as they've developed this new experiment and they have different departments that are already in place, they're developing different ways and mechanisms to be able to manipulate and control things, even if they're not even aware of them.

2:28:20SpeakerSometimes they're accidentally manipulating the market because they're just not maybe completing their job. You know, such as transferring licenses. Should take 30 days. The state's taken six months. That's 400 people trying to transfer their licenses in business, trying to conduct, and patients and other people are getting completely fucked. And then at the same time, they come in with pesticide, different things, which I think is 100% valid, and I think it's great.

2:28:51SpeakerThe health department and different things are getting involved. But what they're finding out in this experiment is exactly how they can kind of let the industry flourish, but also hold it back by pushing different keys on that instrument. And so Oregon, Washington, Colorado, each state is developing their different experiment, if you will. And this thing's going to evolve. And I think what I see is that the more we can push Everyday folks to learning how to grow and learning how to extract their resin and learning how to identify what is good, clean medicine, however you're making it, that's the strength and what I think is going to eventually overturn what Todd's saying.

2:29:41EtienneI think that there's still... What's the cost now? What does it cost if you're a patient and you're right now or you want to start growing What is the overhead cost? Because if you think about it, it's not cheap, the overhead cost to actually get your light, get your situation, then get the seeds, etc. I mean, it sounds great in concept, but it's not cheap. Not everyone can afford it.

2:30:05EtienneNot everybody has access to a thousand watt HPS or a place to put a thousand watt HPS, much less to store, you know, a metal halide for their, you know, for their vegging or You know, just maintain their own clones. Right. Can I bring something up though, ATN?

2:30:22Todd MccormickRight now there are people that have multi-million dollar food grade greenhouses that are producing things like, you know, everything we eat in our supermarket. When it becomes legal for them to add cannabis as a crop to pre-existing business models, you're going to see basically cannabis start trading at a price where it's probably double or not much over the cost of actual production. At that point, our gardens, the people that are growing at home, will have to compete with the reality that, dude, we'd three bucks a pound at the supermarket now in a jar, or I could get your stuff for 300 bucks an ounce, but that's a little fucked up.

2:31:01Todd MccormickSo our stuff is going to become inevitably worth a lot less because... That's going to be the reality of the consumer. Dude, I'd go buy it down the street for nothing almost, and sorry, but it's going to flip like that. People that still want to grow their own are still going to grow their own. Grandma's going to have her own tomatoes and red peppers, and she's going to be proud as fuck about them, and people like me and Steve and others are still going to grow our weed because we like a particular strain done in a particular way, and it's easy for us, and it's a hobby thing.

2:31:33Todd MccormickHow many people choose to go out and buy it from here?

2:31:37EtienneHow many people choose to go out and buy beer as opposed to brewing their own? And that market's there, it's accessible, there's kits and everything available, yet people still drink beer.

2:31:51SpeakerThat answer, that actually, there is the answer though. In Colorado's experiment, 50% of the market is still caregivers and 50% are in business. And they're still doing over a billion a year in taxes with 4.5 million people in the total state. So they're charging 23% taxes on the rec side, 7% on the medical. Average prices wholesale indoor range from $1,500 to $2,000. So there's floors. And

2:32:27SpeakerGreenhouses and say outdoor hemp, CBD hemp, you can get for 500 a pound. So there's definitely floors that I've seen and I think there's going to be a limit to how low It will go and the way that those agencies and the policies in each state that are implemented will affect those costs in the different sectors. So I don't know if it's going to be until like if you had your perfect world where Breeders Steve said, okay, we're going to, and I've seen lots of hemp in Colorado.

2:33:00SpeakerThere's hundreds of thousands of pounds of CBD hemp and they're very, very, Low end, as low as they're going to go is $500. There's going to be a low end mark at some point. But the only time I think it's going to get ridiculously cheap and offset like that is when Breeders Steve said farmers start cultivating in a multi platform base. So where you're saying, okay, I'm growing for the stock, I'm growing for I'm growing for these different byproducts, and the cannabinoids and the THC and the resins are byproducts.

2:33:43SpeakerLike, that's just a blimp on the business model of the plant. That's when I think it's going to go. That's when I think it's going to start to do that, you know?

2:33:53Breeder SteveYeah, when it shifts from horticulture to industrial agriculture, it's another story.

2:33:59EtienneRight, when Colorado actually has competition from Wyoming, Montana, etc., Then, you know, it came over. I mean, it's, yes, because currently it's in the suspended false economy still, you know, but when, you know, Wyoming's producing hemp and Nebraska's producing hemp again and competing in the prices and flowers as well. I mean, we're talking decades down the line here, people. We're not talking the next couple of years.

2:34:28EtienneNot really, no. That's what's going to happen.

2:34:30Todd MccormickBut think of this. Imagine if Jack Daniels was only available in Tennessee. I mean, you know, because this is where we're at right now, and as soon as the feds change, everyone is under the pressure of everybody else, because there's going to be Lynchburg, Tennessee, cranking out great whiskey, and y'all all have to deal with it, and they're going to have a right to ship it to Berkeley, or to Kalamazoo, or to Mark's Place in Canada, because it's legal, mate, and then you have to deal with the price structures that got created by this international commerce, no?

2:35:05Todd MccormickImagine if you had to smuggle all your Jack Daniels, every bottle of Jack Daniels that wasn't in Tennessee was actually like bootlegged. It would be worth so much more money.

2:35:15SpeakerYeah, they just, the policy writers aren't going to allow, they're going to collect their tax money. So like what Fletch was saying, and I think it was Dana, he has a thing in here, 37% on $2 a gram isn't much. Even if you were charging $37, 37% on a few bucks a gram,

2:35:35SpeakerThey're going to have, there's just cost of doing business and doing this in the first decade. I think they're going to have policies and ways that make it so that, you know, it's just not going to be as low as humanly possible. I don't know. I just, I see what's happening in Colorado. Tony, you're right.

2:35:55EtienneThey're going to collect their tax money, one way, shape, or form. They're going to get their money.

2:36:02SpeakerThat tax is going to frustrate with the situation of other agriculture economies.

2:36:08EtienneThey do so with corn, they do so with wheat, and they will do so with cannabis in the future. It's inevitable.

2:36:15SpeakerI think something also is that they have interest in... Prolonging the amount of time that it takes for this to become industrialized as well. You know, because not only is there the money that they collect off of taxes, which is all good and great, it gives like, in the case of Washington, You know, they, we fired our liquor control board because they did such a shitty job with liquor, right?

2:36:44SpeakerAnd Costco wanted to sell liquor here. We voted to get them out and then we gave them weed six months later. They, to manipulate that, I mean, it's, you know, if they, I almost guarantee the liquor control board in Washington State lobbied to get weed controlled by them. Why are they even called liquor control board if they're a marijuana commission? I mean, it's completely pointless. So, They have interest in prolonging it and making things like applications take six months because what happens during that six months?

2:37:15SpeakerPeople spend money. What do they do in all those communities? They spend money on rent and living there and moving there and whatever else. If they processed everybody's shit really fast and made it really efficient and ran this thing correctly, it would wash everything out real quick. They have interest in prolonging it because there's all these communities that are benefiting from investment from all kinds of people that aren't necessarily going to make it back out.

2:37:41EtienneThat sounds good in theory. However, I'm in the NCIA, National Cannabis Industry Association, and there are investors around the world being held back just at the slightest breath waiting for the opportunity to kick the door in. And once the opportunity kicks the door in, It's open. Pandora's box is open. I mean, that's the reality of the situation. So it's still a false economy, but they can only keep it for a certain amount of time.

2:38:08EtienneIt's not going to stay that way for the next decade. You know that.

2:38:12SpeakerNo, no, that's not what I'm saying, but they have interest in doing whatever they can legislatively to prolong that period, right?

2:38:20Breeder SteveThat's not the case in Canada, because in Canada they've got The mandate that they have to do it now because they want to show the best results over the longest period of time before the next election. So I think that at least for us here, they've said that their main goal with legal grass is that it's cheaper than black market grass so that they can get their taxes.

2:38:48Breeder SteveSo there's a mandate to make it cheaper right now. Up here at least, you know? And they also, if they only get it into full production four years from now, they're not going to have a lot of results to show as far as increased tax revenue. If they get it done in six months, then they've got three and a half years to show some money, you know?

2:39:09Breeder SteveSo hopefully, I don't know how far they'll kick the door in, but we're going to see.

2:39:14SpeakerYeah, I mean, that's what they're trying to do in Washington, too, is they're, you know, they're trying to make it cheaper than, like the producers have no tax. It's all just on the end consumer now. So they're trying to get the producers to produce cheap enough so that they can undercut black market, but they don't want to make it, you know, if black market's $8 a gram, they want to sell it for $7, you know.

2:39:41SpeakerThey want the market to be at seven because that's how they perceive the most revenue for themselves because it's generally short-sighted.

2:39:50Breeder SteveThat's already more expensive than it is here and they've already said they're going to make it cheaper than it is now. So we might be looking at different realities politically there.

2:40:02SpeakerAlso, one other thing, it's like, you know, I mean, some people may disagree with this, but I think there's a consensus that These are the people that I talk to. You know, the war to the bottom is always not the best. And in Colorado, ever since the rec door opened, it wasn't a race to the top who can make the best. It's been a race to the bottom who can sell the cheapest.

2:40:27SpeakerAnd the quality of the product and the care behind it, in my opinion, has fallen.

2:40:31Breeder SteveYou know, and so I think that's always...

2:40:38SpeakerSomething to keep in mind as well, I see a little bit more on the west coast, more of like pride in the farming and the cultivating side of things like you would see in Rastafari communities. There's a lot of pride in the northwest coast in farming and keeping things. They don't just farm cannabis, they farm other fruits and vegetables and everything is a different culture completely than say the east coast.

2:41:08SpeakerSo I think each policy in each state is going to be unique in their way, but it's all going to come down to what Fled said. Whatever that market is, to maximize that revenue and that tax, they're going to be right there, right behind it. Oh yeah.

2:41:23Breeder SteveThere's lots of kind growers on the East Coast, without a doubt, for sure. But there's special people everywhere. But I know what you're saying about taking pride in making... A sacred plant, you know, really appreciating what you're growing. But I think coming from that background and carrying that forward, there's no reason you can't do its kind with a tractor, you know?

2:41:50BubblemanNow there's a t-shirt right there, Steve.

2:42:01SpeakerI'm not trying to take anything away from the East Coast, Pete. I'm from the East Coast. You know what I mean. It's been a war on the East Coast, especially if you're in Florida. Every year for the last decade has been worse and worse. You don't want to be caught dead growing cannabis indoor in Florida. Then they gave you the wonderful CBD bill. Hopefully it'll turn around.

2:42:26SpeakerBut I just, you know, as I've floated from the east all the way out to the west, I just noticed that. You know, it's just a different, totally different, you know. I hear you, man. I know what you mean.

2:42:37EtienneI think that's very interesting, Tony, because that's why we were kind of, you know, relieved that, you know, Colorado actually took over the first helm to see what was actually going to happen with the economy, what was going to happen with cannabis, because We were curious here, back when 19 was going to happen, what was that possibility, where it was going to go. But it's interesting to see how Colorado started off, then see how Washington State dragged its feet, whereas Oregon's like, you got a dispensary?

2:43:09EtienneCome the fuck on in, it's legal. It's just been very interesting, and still waiting to see how Alaska happens, and we'll see what happens in the current. But it's It's been very interesting to see how, as you stated, you know, it became a race down to the lowest quality, and that's what really surprised me when I was in Colorado and going through dispensaries, looking at the retail side and looking at the medical side, because I, as a patient, and seeing the difference in the quality, accessible and available.

2:43:39EtienneCertain strains are only available to, you know, medical, to then not available in retail, so... It's still interesting to see how it's still shaking out. It's again with, you know, Washington State dragging its feet. And what will transpire here in California because, you know, will it become boutique style-y like, you know, Napa became with the wine? You know, will there just be, you know, specialized boutique areas in Humboldt, Mendocino where people grow this special type of cannabis here, etc.

2:44:11Etienne? But it's inevitable that, you know, the economy and agriculturally it's just inevitable that there's just going to be a production versus quality always has been. But I don't see people going for, you know, special quality tobaccos or, you know, anything like that. They've all gone for the common denominator and what it is as cheap as possible with taxation. So we see that with other agricultural crops.

2:44:38EtienneSo... Why is it then no different or to be expected no different with cannabis even though we hold it in an entirely different light and respect it and love it? It's completely motivated our lives. We see with Colorado that not necessarily the commercial applications have the same ideals as what we've fought or been involved for.

2:45:00Breeder SteveThere will certainly be a mud light in the market. That's for sure. I agree. I'm more interested in the Cohibas than the Marlboros for sure. But there's going to sell a lot of Marlboros. I don't care if I'm the person to do it or not. I'm just sort of speculating as most of you are. That's how it will go eventually. There's always been a commercial market and a heady market, right?

2:45:27Breeder SteveYou've got Napa and you've got Central Valley. The quality is different and the price is different. There's a lot more Central Valley than there is Napa, right?

2:45:40HoratioWith Colorado with the pesticides, is that, like, when I read it, it sounds like, oh my God, everything's changing. And I read, like, I started to read through what they approve and what they disapprove, and I'm like, holy shit.

2:45:51EtienneYou cut out on this ratio. Please, if you can restate that for some reason, you started off and then you cut out immediately.

2:45:57HoratioAm I still cut out?

2:45:59EtienneI had you now.

2:46:00HoratioOkay, well, I was asking... With the pesticides and people getting these recalls, normally that fucks up people's production practices to the point of possibly crashing their business. So when someone, like I see that in BC, everyone said I solved my PM and they just jumped to I'm buying a new product to solve my PM. And like with what's happening in Colorado, doesn't that make the price go up when people finally get an organic solution?

2:46:28HoratioLike it doesn't seem like the price will keep going down.

2:46:32SpeakerSo, remember when we talked about this on a hash church a long time ago, and people didn't want to hear it or talk about it. And we were talking, and this was also brought up when we were talking about cloning over and over and over. And what we're seeing is a classic case, in my opinion, you go from basement, and I was part of it, basement or closet, basement, warehouse, right?

2:46:56SpeakerI'm going to give you a closet basement warehouse. When you're in your basement, you know, you're at your home or you're in a closet, you're more conscious about your, you know, what you individually, you're responsible for your individual environment, you know. So if you were in somebody else's grow, you come home, take a shower, then you go into your grow. You know, you're probably a lot more clean and responsible when you're an individual that's responsible for, you know, six lights or three lights or something like that and keep a super clean grow room and environment and tons of control.

2:47:33SpeakerBut then when you go into a warehouse and you say, okay, you're going from basement to warehouse and people couldn't get financing and couldn't get banking. So you have to remember how Colorado started and still doesn't have banking. So things were cash. And you couldn't borrow money from outside because those people that were here had to start from the ground up. And that's essentially what I had to do as a patient.

2:47:56SpeakerAnd when you start that way, you're limited to your vision and your design. And you're like, man, I'd really love to build something like this. But the reality is we only have 40,000. We'd like 400,000. And so what I saw happening in a lot of the grows is people had a lot of makeshift in the beginning.

2:48:18SpeakerA certain style and a certain way in that warehouse and they tried to scale up commercially and they started creating production scale models without having mothers and having environmental controls and SOPs that you would see say in Canada and Vegas and newer markets that really built upon this experiment. And when you do that, and you constantly clone, and you're not keeping the greatest mothers, and I'm not saying everybody in Colorado does this, so don't get me wrong.

2:48:54SpeakerBut if you're not keeping good mothers, good environments, and the vegging and the flowering isn't consistent, and your staff isn't consistent, and the feeding isn't consistent, and you get out of the way, and you get a little bit of PM, and you start growing that stemically, and you start cloning it. And then you're never going to get rid of it. And all of a sudden, it's like a little virus.

2:49:16SpeakerYou're like, oh, well, we got a little PM breakout. That's how they think about it. Oh, we got a little PM breakout. We're going to put some safers or some bullshit on it. And then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, how many clones did we take? Well, we took, you know, 100 or 200 or 500 or 3,000. And of those, of that database, you've got now 10% contaminant PM.

2:49:36SpeakerNext time, it's 30. Next time, it's 70. Now, every single genetic and everything you have epistemically has been Cloned from this and passed along and you've got a contamination and a breakout. Then they start turning to Eagle 20 and all kinds of other chemicals to try to control it. And those chemicals do work and those things do actually bring it back. But if you had to cut down 80,000 or 8,000 plants and start over, that's not a good business model.

2:50:07SpeakerSo people would rather try to cheat and they would rather try to do what they can to get through it. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:50:41SpeakerYou know? And so it's a domino effect. And then the people that are getting into business that I'm talking about have never grown before. So they're running a business not with anyone that's like their partner that's a grower. These people are like, we're just going to get into the cannabis business and start growing. And then you're just growing poison. And you're just growing for the bugs. And you're just growing for something completely different.

2:51:05SpeakerYou know? So that's my overall opinion on it. Whether it's right or wrong, that's just how I see it. I mean, one thing that falls right into that is, why were these agrochemicals developed in the first place? Because when you industrialize agricultural crops and you continually treat them with, depending on what your control, how good your control is, and whether or not you can Thank you for joining us.

2:51:31SpeakerWe'll be right back.

2:51:46SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

2:52:06SpeakerThank you for joining us.

2:52:27SpeakerYes, that's right. The good German chemists who basically came up with how you fucking fix nitrogen, which bacteria figured out how to do with enzymes, but German chemists figured out how to do it with pressure and heat. That's the reason why the planet is as populated as it is today. But just the word about crop protection chemicals, you know, We take it for granted when we go to the grocery store and we have a plethora of different food, especially here in the West.

2:52:57SpeakerYou know, you go to a Safeway that's open 24-7 and it's got 10 different flavors of, you know, whatever. I mean, that's what the American public and what people consume and what people demand, you know, is having fast food and food that's cheap and affordable that they can basically sustain their family's population on. And crop protection chemicals, like it or not, if you don't like Roundup, fuck it, it is used to produce all the food that we eat on this planet.

2:53:26SpeakerThat's just a given. Nothing you can do about it. Even organic farming, so-called organic farming, you know what's used for crop protection in organic farming are things that, first of all, don't have all of the hallmarks of a crop protection chemical today. And so a lot of chemicals kill bugs. What makes a crop protection chemical today is one that does so that's safe and effective by the time that produce or that food Thank you for joining us.

2:54:14SpeakerAll of that stuff is going to be in the extract. So we shouldn't be surprised that you do see pesticide residues in the extracts and some of these residues, again,

2:54:39SpeakerThese are crop protection chemicals that are sold by multinational large companies like Monsanto and Syngenta and Bayer and DuPont and those are regulated for use for agrochemicals for food where food is going to be treated. And then food is going to be washed off. It's not regulated for use on a product that's meant to be smoked. So these are not registered for use on products where thermal degradation of these things have been thoroughly investigated and the companies have registered for those end uses.

2:55:15SpeakerSo because those are all unknowns, no one knows what happens when we heat up these pesticides. I can tell you that ultimately they degrade. They don't vaporize like they won't. Like cannabinoids, when you heat them up, they cleanly vaporize and they transfer into the mucosa. These things are not meant to be thermally vaporized. I think there's a lot of degradation chemistry, and Eagle 20 in particular on heating will generate hydrogen cyanide.

2:55:44SpeakerSo it generates cyanide on heating. It says so in the MSDS.

2:55:47EtienneSo Mark, do you think then that some of these chemical companies are actually going to start playing with cannabis because they've These are inherent problems. These are issues that, you know, farming, there are no songs about farming. There's only laments because farming, you know, you can lose a crop, et cetera, et cetera. So there's got to be a way for, because again, this is still a burgeoning industry.

2:56:11EtienneThere's got to be a way for people to start playing and putting out products that we can actually test clean and actually get out to people.

2:56:22SpeakerIf you take a company like Scott's, Scott's is actually just an end-use formulator. They formulate other people's existing active ingredients that are registered for grub control or weed control or anything that a farmer or you would use in a professional setting like at hotels and resorts where they want the flower beds to look really nice and they don't want extraneous weeds. There are large markets For ag chemicals that don't include food, the so-called non-ag markets.

2:56:56SpeakerBut anyway, a lot of these compounds are some of the nasty things that you don't want on food, but they are still extremely effective at controlling things like powdery mildew and other fungus, but you certainly don't want it in and around food. In and around cannabis. And you guys tell me, I mean, isn't there integrated pest management strategies such that you should not need to use these ag chemicals?

2:57:27SpeakerI think the big problem, Mark, is, you know, Everybody, okay, the reason that they came up with these chemicals is because it's so difficult to control these pests over the long term when you have consistent, on time, all the time production of tissue of cannabis, right? Without tissue culture and doing it like poinsettias or orchids or something like that. And even then, it's like... You buy an orchid from the store, they always have scale on them.

2:57:57SpeakerThey've always got something on them. It's never clean. And those were from tissue culture. And it's because it's extremely difficult to manage pests in tight, high-density agricultural applications. And industrialized agriculture. And the thing is, like you said, 100 years ago, this all started because all the farms were very small at that point in time. And people weren't, everybody grew their shit from seed, and it was all independent.

2:58:25SpeakerAnd that was kind of how the weed market was. People didn't, it wasn't, I never, there was no such thing as, I never even heard of powdery mildew or spider mites or anything until I got a clone from somebody. Actually, my buddy brought some clones from third floor in Oakland and asked me to hold on to them for two weeks in my bathroom in 2003. I had terrible environment on my very first grow because it was my very first grow.

2:58:55SpeakerIt didn't happen. It wasn't until you introduced the pest. Once it's there under intense agriculture, it's super hard to manage these things. Especially in a warehouse or especially greenhouses. Especially if you're indoors and especially if air handling system isn't what it normally should be. If the building wasn't designed to appropriately distribute the air because a lot has to do with exposure to the fungal spores and given the right opportunity if the spores are in a nice warm moist environment they're going to thrive.

2:59:30SpeakerYou can't keep it from happening. It's like You know, shoveling shit against the tide. The spores are everywhere. You can't keep them from really coming in contact, so really you have to do whatever you need to do in your IPM to manage the ability for the other part of your IPM to deal with fungal invasion like that, which I know can be absolutely devastating. Dr. Well, I think one of the inherent problems, though, is cannabis is a plant that's meant to go to seed every year in nature, right?

3:00:01SpeakerMost plants that go to seed every year, the reason they do that is because they grow fast and they're also particularly susceptible to pests, right? Now is their natural solution. Hey, I'll just go to seed every year over winter and then I'll come back up, right? So we're trying to grow this thing from clones, successive generations, these plants way beyond their hormonal and natural state of growth that they would be.

3:00:28SpeakerThese plants are susceptible to pathogens, and it's just a matter of time before, you know, things like mainly fungal pathogens like Pythium, Phytophthora, crazy stuff like that that's going to, you know, you can manage it now, but eventually agrochem's or going back to seed or tissue culture or some type of, you know, highly, you got to really clean your shit, and you got to be really, really We've got a lot of people that we've got to focus on the prevention.

3:01:01SpeakerSo the newest grow rooms, ones that I've seen indoor, 7ML, Hospital,

3:01:21SpeakerGlaze floors, hypoallergenic walls, 3M UV filtration, atmospheric manipulation, you know, making the air feel like you're 5,000 feet high, you know, different technologies, you know. They spend a lot of money on doing that for kids and everything else, and they still don't have scale on the scale. It's still the same problem. It's Industrialized agriculture breeds heavy-duty pests. That's just how it works. If we continue to go from clone over and over and over for successive generations in a production setting, I'm not saying that it's impossible.

3:02:08SpeakerI'm just saying for most, a lot of scenarios, like you're saying, if the facility's not designed correctly and all these other factors, Or if you just have infected tissue, or you have one person that grows at their house and brings the shit in on them that works at your facility. I mean, it can be as simple as that, you know? Someone, it's like, do you have to screen every single person that works for your facility?

3:02:30SpeakerLike, you can't grow any houseplants, any of this shit, because if, or they have to shit, you have like a locker room and a shower for everybody that comes to work. I mean, you're talking major protocols that require more investment, which, you know, You know, it's just a fact of the matter. And, you know, if these things were so easy to control with natural reasons, why do we even have agrochem in the first place?

3:02:57HoratioIt sounds like the price wants the regulations for what cannabis is. I mean, everything works when it's got a skin and you can wash it, but there's very few things that we inhale like tobacco, and tobacco doesn't have a good history with human beings.

3:03:13SpeakerAnd it's a pot insecticide in and of itself that doesn't need any help from us.

3:03:20Breeder SteveMost of those problems are totally indoor.

3:03:24HoratioThat's why it sounds like all this, like, yeah, weed will be cheap. I'm like, that doesn't work. It sounds like one day people will just be talking about massive crop failure like they do in industrial agriculture, but with weed, as soon as you spray it, it becomes an instant poison where tomatoes you can spray and wash off. There's a different... It's like a different half-life. You can't get away with all those industrial techniques with weed.

3:03:48Breeder SteveYou know, most of the insecticides now are systemic. The fungicides as well, systemic fungicides. So you can't wash them off. They grow in the cells of the plant and they carry on for a long time. And most, you don't see a lot of powdery mildew problems in outdoor grows and healthy outdoor grows. You don't see a lot of mites It's an indoor phenomenon. There's something called competitive exclusion.

3:04:15Breeder SteveSo that's when you try and set something up to be totally sterile, and then you put a food source in there, the very first organizm that finds it owns it. It'll take over like that PM. Whereas outdoors, there's a zillion other organizms already competing with it to do something on that plant and maybe be eaten by it, you know?

3:04:36EtienneThe wine industry in California has been inundated with white powdery mildew. That's why they've had to go to Bactilis Subtilis, which is a serenade because they've been absolutely overrun with it to the point where it's destroying crops en masse.

3:04:50SpeakerRight. I don't... I don't agree with that either. I mean, I've seen tons of outdoor grows covered in stuff. Most of those were started, not from seed though, from cuttings that were most likely already infected with it.

3:05:03Breeder SteveRight.

3:05:06SpeakerYou could transplant it out like that. Exactly. You're proliferating stuff in an indoor grow that you would not necessarily see in an outdoor grow given the pressure. That comment is absolutely right on. The outdoor pressure that you experience and that the plant experiences growing in an outdoor environment completely different than an indoor space.

3:05:33EtienneI think it's also because we're, Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with that. I published a 10-page dossier on every known contaminant found in cannabis. The majority of them were found through Rob's research regarding industrial hemp. Thank you for joining us.

3:06:05EtienneThey can find the pesticides because who before really Colorado and these other states became legal knew what their THC was or that there was pesticides even accessible to cannabis. We've known it, but that's why we pushed that envelope. So there's definitely a need, as I said, because Mark, you never answered my question. We apparently don't have any companies out there who are actually testing with chemicals that are ingestible for humans.

3:06:35SpeakerOkay, so let me answer that question. So I would say that what you're going to see is similar to like what's gone on say in CO2 extraction or other things is you'll get companies that are organically trying to grow from the bottom up by taking currently registered ingredients that they feel are safe and basically putting together the regulatory package that they would have to So, for example, if they were going to take like a currently used pesticide that they feel that is used in somewhat of a systemic way, and I want to go back to something that I think it's Breeders Steve said, absolutely right.

3:07:21SpeakerThere is a current trend in the industry towards the use of not only systemic treatments for the protection of Agrochemical or agricultural plants against bugs and fungus. It's being put into a seed coating that's actually in the seed itself. And as the seed germinates in the soil, actually it's treating the soil in and around where the seed originally starts to take hold. And so think of it like a plume of chemical that the plant takes up and is now exactly what Steve said, systemically distributed throughout the plant such that when the insect You know, tries to land on the plant later on in the plant's life.

3:08:08SpeakerIt doesn't find it palatable or whatever because it knows that it's got this juice in it that's going to kill it. So there is sort of a trend towards that. And again, I don't know about... The impact of that in cannabis and how that affects the quality of cannabis, if there's systemic delivery of these pesticides throughout, I mean, again, this has been studied in food, and typically, Steve, what they see is that when you deliver something systemically throughout the lifetime of the plant, you can usually get away with a lot lower concentration than you would use in a foliar spray to control the same Thank you so much for joining us.

3:09:10SpeakerI would say in general, it's probably so effective at such a low concentration that it probably wouldn't have that great of an impact. And the way that answers your question, ATN, is it lowers the risk for someone to say to the EPA that there is no impact on human health And the EPA would have to look at that, look at the studies. You would have to do generational studies in animals to show that it has no impact on the animal's health.

3:09:47SpeakerAnd with that data in hand, you could amend the registration. That active ingredient can now be registered and used in a cannabis market. So again, this is five, maybe ten years out by somebody with a big pile of money who can do it.

3:10:02EtienneSo due to the systematic buildup that happens due to these cannabis Chemicals or biochemicals that go into the plant, do they also work its way into the rosin itself and into the trifones?

3:10:14SpeakerIf it's systemic, the notion is that it's distributed all throughout the plant in some Thank you so much for joining us.

3:10:43SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

3:11:10SpeakerThat looks at a double-blind study so we can really make an accurate scientific assessment.

3:11:18SpeakerDoes that answer the question?

3:11:22EtienneWell, we still don't know of any chemical companies currently that are actually doing so because of the trials it has to. You know, I bet they're looking at somebody from Scott's or somebody saying, hey, you know, we should actually start playing.

3:11:36SpeakerSo here's another thing. Here's another thing. I want to go back to hemp. You've got to remember that the economic, you know, we talked about this, right, Todd, last week or two weeks ago, I think. The economic driver for hemp, and we were talking about hemp, is going to be the seed. And the seed oil and the protein that you get is going to be the driver that's going to create a byproduct in the fiber and the pulp.

3:12:01SpeakerThat will be competitive with wood and sawdust someday. But right now we consume a lot of wood and a lot of trees. So sawdust is available and abundant. And when you go to wipe your ass, it was a tree at one point, okay? Now they're turning hemp into rolling papers. And I want to do a shout out to my boys here, Lucas and Ben from Restock. If you're a grower somewhere on the West Coast, either in Washington, Oregon, I'm in lovely state of Oregon right now, but if you're in California, Oregon, NorCal, or Oregon, and you have stock and you want to repurpose that stock and convert it into rolling papers, hit me up.

3:12:44SpeakerBecause we got a guy who's going around with a chipper and he will chip all your stocks, convert it into pulp, we send it off to a place and they will come back with cases of these rolling papers for you for your stocks. So you're repurposing your stocks from your grow and turning it into rolling papers that you need to roll up big fatties for you and your friends of organically grown hemp made from your fucking grow.

3:13:10SpeakerSo hit me up if you're interested. But let me just go back to the driver, remember, for hemp is going to be seed and seed oil. And that's going to create all of this fiber that's now going to become available. And when it's grown for seed and seed oil, you've got to remember that you're up against the soybean and the corn and, well, mostly soybean. Let's talk about who benefits from soybeans today.

3:13:34SpeakerMonsanto, Cargill, DuPont, all the big chemical companies all sell the chemicals that are used. And the seeds, DuPont has a seed company and there's other companies that have seed companies. These companies are all integrated in their pesticide management. There's Roundup Ready seeds that are all ready to be grown with a chemical barrage that are provided by... So when you're talking about using hemp to displace... Thanks for watching.

3:14:27SpeakerThe numbers that I've seen on the internet are as high as 8,000 pounds per acre versus soybean, which is 365. 8,000 pounds just sounds really too high. But even if he's off by an order of magnitude, let's say 800 pounds, if you could get 800 pounds an acre

3:14:46SpeakerAll of this is going to take over the world as being the economic source of protein that's the cheapest form of a farmer being able to convert an acre of land to protein. Period. End of story. The high value of the oil that you get, the oil is the highest value. And the byproduct is the protein. And then the other byproduct is the fiber and the herd, which you can use for all kinds of shit.

3:15:17SpeakerSo when that takes off, there will be companies, ATN, that will get on this bandwagon of saying our stuff will be registered for use in these products because you're going to have to basically display soybeans in the world as being the way that the farmer produces protein in this next century.

3:15:40EtienneSo, no, we don't have anybody who never answered my question. Great tangent, but never answered my question.

3:15:45BubblemanThe only thing I will say on that is that when you plant hemp for seed, the fiber is not of an ideal fiber. Planting for fiber and planting for seed are very, very different things. Fiber is very, very close together in a high percentage of seed per square foot, and seed is much more spaced out. And it just grows differently.

3:16:10EtienneSo you can definitely get on. On top of that, it depends on if you cottonize it. If you don't cottonize it, what type of machinery you're using. Are you using like the Gardella machinery that produces a nice fine so I can produce a fine fiber or something that's going to be like what we had.

3:16:24BubblemanBut even if you use that finest machine, if you're using stalks that were from seeded plants, you are not going to have planted that. That's not the fiber.

3:16:33EtienneAgreed. Agreed. Agreed. That's all I'm saying there.

3:16:38HoratioAtan, I guess the one way I could throw something at answering your question about like what are the solutions to any kind of larger scale... What would I say? Something that would work for cannabis versus a tomato. It wouldn't be on the end of chasing a pesticide company developing... It's a chemical to spray that's safe. There's no chemical that's ever going to be safe to spray in my fucking lungs other than Terps.

3:17:03HoratioBut when it comes to techniques and technologies to be applied to things like PM, there are ways to go at it. They're probably just more human intensive. And I don't have a problem with there being 30 people marching through an acre. It seems like it's more inclusive than a giant truck just bulldozing through it and calling that farming. So I think cannabis in any kind of industrial way is going to demand the inclusion of mankind.

3:17:29HoratioBecause like when I look at techniques that what can I use on this plant to not go down like everybody else in my region who eventually to stay competitive is using dangerous or endangered stuff every year. I look at UV light and then I started researching. I'm like okay it works, it doesn't work, it's here or there. Then I saw in combination with peroxide, which is another compound that works here or there, it makes the peroxide ten times stronger.

3:17:55HoratioAnd now I'm like, okay, well now we have something more non-invasive with a low With a low shelf life, that could be used, because the real question is, what can be used in flour? Lots of things work in veg, but what can be used in flour? And UVC light in combination with clean hydrogen peroxide seem to be the only things I know of, because I know peroxide is used to remove PM in dirty dunk techniques at the end.

3:18:20HoratioSo, I mean, Mark's waiting to chime in, but that's what I'm researching personally, the combination of the two being stronger than the two parts separate. This is my way, I guess, I'm pushing forward.

3:18:31EtienneAre you doing any lab testing with that?

3:18:34HoratioThis is more like wreck a plant, bring a plant back, look at that same systemic behavior. When does it come back because it's built in? It's solving it for a time and then knowing this is my rod and my staff and my quiver for this issue for life is what I'm going after. I have plants that are outside that are of a different nature. Thank you for joining us.

3:19:12HoratioThat's my proposition is I'm following industries that are doing university research on, well, we apply peroxide and it kills the eggs, but it doesn't kill the adults. We use UVC light, it kills the adult, it doesn't kill the eggs. We apply both within 10 minutes and it kills both three times stronger. I just hate that it's an obscure document. That's not something that's really put into practice and I shouldn't be the guy reading the back of the internet, but that seems to be where it is in...

3:19:39HoratioHand-to-hand combat with large-scale things, which is the way I think it naturally should go.

3:19:44SpeakerPeroxide's a great anesthetic. It kills bacteria. It just stops them dead. It basically assaults them with hydroxyl radical, which they can't overcome. That's the little fizzing that you see.

3:20:03SpeakerI'm not sure, so do you use peroxide in your water treatment or your canopy?

3:20:10HoratioIs that what you're doing? In the case of, let's say what I'm doing, I have the stomata open, I shut off the lights, I'm moving from, let's say, misting to cold fogging, which is like a five micron mist. So it'd be like 3% hydrogen peroxide mist that's saturating the environment and then I come through with my UV light to essentially explode all the peroxide on the surface of the plant in contact with the mildew or eggs or active insects.

3:20:41HoratioSo I'm trying to get more out of my peroxide than a 10 second burn that has a low effect. It's not as effective because I push the peroxide up to 20% and then you start seeing plant damage. It's more effective, but you get plant damage, and that's where, you know, Bozer.

3:20:58SpeakerIt'll start to go after some of the pigments. I mean, for those chem nerds in the audience, so hydrogen peroxide is H-O-O-H, right? It's like water, but it's like an extra oxygen molecule inserted. When Horatio shines the UV light on that, you basically do a scission of that bond and make Thanks for watching.

3:21:36SpeakerI just had to back off.

3:21:38HoratioAs long as I backed off, like I was like 20%, 30 seconds of light, and yeah, I've exploded the plant. And I'm like, okay, well, what about three seconds and 3% and three times a week instead of just one man dose? And so it's all about learning that, okay, this is going to require another employee, and that's fine. And he comes three times a day at low dose.

3:22:00HoratioMy man doesn't walk away and do hash church is not appropriate, you know, large scale. So that's the thing I work out, is when can I back off the kill?

3:22:12SpeakerYeah, I mean, you got me thinking about, you know, the peroxide treatment that's commonly used in toothpaste and actually that's used in things like... Things like OxyClean. You know, OxyClean, I think, is just percarbonate, which is just, again, it's an added oxygen that's, rather than just carbonate, which is, you know, CO3 minus, has an extra oxygen in there, and so it tends to, again, be these things that sort of indiscriminately, you know, attack anything biological, you know.

3:22:47SpeakerI think it would be cool to actually understand exactly what that does to PM. I don't know that literature, but I can I can look at it over the next week and maybe report back next week and see what I find. It's cool. It's a cool idea, actually.

3:23:01EtienneIt's a cool idea, actually.

3:23:02SpeakerReally neat. For the deep water culture or areoponics or hydroponics, I used to use a tablespoon for every five gallons of water of hydrogen peroxide. Helped as a pH balancer, so I never used a pH up or down. I just mixed my nutrients, and I used hydrogen peroxide. I never had a root problem with fungus. It was unbelievable. I mean, I always used it. Dr. Well, hydrogen peroxide won't change the cycle, right?

3:23:33SpeakerDr. Right. Dr. Right.

3:23:36EtienneDr. All right. Well, then, since we went originally, here's an idea. I'm having a thought here. We went originally and found laboratories and found the experts and brought testing and started testing. So why don't we reach out? I mean, Bayer is in the city of Berkeley. They've got a huge research thing. And they also do fungicides, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, and the good thing about Bayer, Bayer is the largest company in the world.

3:24:05EtienneStart looking.

3:24:06SpeakerBear is the largest chemical company in the world, I think. Somebody checked that, but I think that's right. I think if you exclude the petroleum companies, Bear is the largest chemical company, largest like Monsanto type of company that provides, yeah.

3:24:21EtienneIf I were going to approach them and say call them on Monday, what would you say would be the first thing I should talk to them about?

3:24:28SpeakerI think the great thing to do is to show them the letter that the EPA sent back to the Attorney General of Colorado giving them guidance on what the companies need to do.

3:24:42EtienneI'm talking past there. When I talk to them and say who I am and where I'm with, we're past that conversation.

3:24:48SpeakerOh, is your company willing to register crop protection chemicals for weed?

3:24:54EtienneThat's a good question. There you go. That's what I was looking for right there.

3:24:58SpeakerYou know, what do I ask these people? The PhD on hash church wants to know.

3:25:01EtienneI do. Inquiring minds want to know on top of how many thousands of growers and people that think of this.

3:25:10SpeakerJust say some fucking idiot from Pennsylvania, you know.

3:25:17SpeakerYeah, I mean, here's the thing. You know, those companies are all extremely conservative, and again, they're all at the soybean trough, right? So they're fat and happy, making a whole lot of money, playing it conservative. They're publicly invested, you know. And they have multi-million dollar bills. They've got a really, really, really good crop.

3:25:40SpeakerThank you for joining us.

3:26:00SpeakerI just got out of that shit, right? And I still get shit in the chat room. Oh, it used to be at DuPont, whatever. Well, I ain't there anymore. Now I'm growing weed and making hash for living people. And ATN, you know what it comes down to? When this thing drops at a federal level and it's no longer listed like Bernie Sanders wants it to do, Every Hash Church member should vote for Bernie Sanders because the guy wants to take cannabis off the fucking list.

3:26:29SpeakerOff the fucking list, okay? Hillary's talking about Schedule 2. Fuck Schedule 2. That means Monsanto and DuPont are going to own cannabis. We want off the list. That means vote for Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders is going to take cannabis off the fucking list and free all the incarcerated people that Todd... Uh, uh, uh, can relate to, and dude, it's, it's, vote for Bernie Sanders. End of story.

3:26:54SpeakerSorry.

3:26:57HoratioAlright, just one last note, because hydrogen peroxide does seem a little bit scorched earth. And I'm like, okay, well I have another side of the coin. I'm working with photosynthetic bacteria and foliarly applying those. I use them in my root zone to control pythium because I... I'm inevitably attracted to organic. So on the foliar side, I am using photosynthetic bacteria on a separate set of humidity dome clones because I like UVC and I like peroxide, but I really love working with life.

3:27:35HoratioSo having a solution that kills is one thing, but having a solution that is so much more complicated than all that is also way more attractive. I guess right now I'm definitely working with photosynthetic purple bacteria. I use them in my deep water culture along with a whole plethora of other type of all aerobic bacteria to basically dominate and control the field. The key is I have to provide them a lot of oxygen on their own separate from the plant.

3:28:05HoratioBut it's another technique to go at it so that it's not just white roots and salt chemicals for all those people losing heart.

3:28:14SpeakerYeah, so if that's effective, let me give everybody a hint. You know that stuff called 10-multine borax? You ever see that stuff? It's like an old brand of borax soap. Is anyone listening? I know. I know what you're talking about.

3:28:31HoratioBorax.

3:28:32SpeakerBorax.

3:28:32HoratioIs it the one with the blue on the front?

3:28:36SpeakerNo, it basically has the same action as carbonate or as peroxide when it's dissolved. So it'll do the same thing, but it's a powder. And you can easily spray it out, you know? So whatever. It'll do the same action. Herborate. Anyway, for what it's worth.

3:28:56BubblemanYoung Man Sam had a funny comment. He said, Bernie does not have a chance. My wife said she will vote for him, and she has voted for a loser every year. Ralph Nader and the likes.

3:29:11SpeakerThat's funny. Vote, Kenny. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Vote for an idiot? Vote for one of these other people? I mean, come on, man. Hillary Clinton, give me a break, you know? No, no.

3:29:23BubblemanHe never said don't vote for Bernie. He never said that. He merely said Bernie does not have a chance. My wife said don't vote for him. There's a recurring pattern.

3:29:39SpeakerWe're talking about the pesticides. One solution is to do what the plant did every year. Take all your favorite plants, make your own seeds with them, kill your moms, or make a bunch of seeds, whatever it is that you need to make, feminize, make all that stuff, get rid of your infected tissue, clean your shit out, and grow from seed. That's how the plant did it. That's one solution.

3:30:04SpeakerWell, that's it right there from the beginning when you were talking earlier about tissue. Ultimately, tissue culture, certified tissue culture, will be the way you can do that on a large scale with all the other protocols in place. Yeah, I agree. One thing that makes cannabis good for tissue culture is because if you're growing in a production setting, it's only going to be alive three or four months, whereas with orchids, they have to be In greenhouses for years before they come to maturity, right?

3:30:39SpeakerSo that length of period that you have holdover plants and stuff makes the transfer of pests much more prevalent, whereas if the plant's every three months and it's banging out and you clean it and it's new cultured stuff, that's totally possible. I'm not saying it's impossible to do this by any means. I'm just saying using the stuff that's currently off the shelf for turf and lawns and tomatoes and stuff Isn't going to be the right solution, especially with states like Massachusetts even enacting all organic agriculture for this, you know.

3:31:15SpeakerYeah, so let's bring this full circle, because I started smoking right away when the show started. I mean, I must have, I've been smoking nonstop since 9 a.m., puffing hard. And I might have been a little off earlier, but I want to ask Breeder Steve his thoughts about our adventures with resin head size from indoor to outdoor, sun grown versus indoor. If he's still there before he's gone.

3:31:52Breeder SteveI'm still here. I don't recall because it's been a long time since I've been making it. And I don't recall size differences between the same plants inside or outside.

3:32:08BubblemanWhat about quality and profile?

3:32:12Breeder SteveWell, I mean, you can have fantastic ones either way, right? But as far as just being with the earth in the plant, I love that. I love it growing in the sunshine.

3:32:26Breeder SteveIt's a beautiful thing. It's a plant that's Nice. Nice.

3:32:57SpeakerWell, I guess if we compare tomatoes, Todd, you might be right, because they do do Areoponics Farm for tomatoes at Epcot is amazing, and their tomatoes are huge in comparison to the tomatoes I've seen grown in Kansas and the Midwest.

3:33:11Todd MccormickRight, right. But Tony, it's a little lot of strain specific, first off, and then second off, when you say what you said, what hits me is that it's like saying that indoors... You're unable at producing a resin clan to its full potential under lights, which I think is an incorrect statement. A strain is going to do what it can do indoors as well as it's going to do what it does outdoors.

3:33:35Todd MccormickIn my experience, I've seen it do it better indoors, which is why indoor is always worth more. When you look at it, it has a better aesthetic, terpene profile, cannabinoid profile. It's usually finished better, more care.

3:33:53Todd MccormickBut I don't believe that outdoors you get a bigger resin head than you would indoors of the same strain finished at the same time with a microscope or what have you. I guess that's where I disagreed with you.

3:34:10SpeakerHow can we get someone else to ask that same question, somebody that's done both? The main difference between basically what you're saying, Tony, is that there is something inherent in the wavelength of the sun that causes either hormonally or growth-wise a different reaction in the plant, right? That's essentially what, you know, that there's actually a genetic... We're going to have a little bit of predisposition in the plant to produce something with the wavelengths of the sun that are not produced with artificial light, and I don't know if we have enough information to be able to necessarily make that statement.

3:34:51BubblemanHere's what Skunk Man Sam is saying.

3:34:53SpeakerBut Sam would know a hell of a lot more about it than I do.

3:34:57BubblemanHe just said, bigger plant, bigger resin, the same clone, real tiny plants, the resin heads are smaller. I think under sun in a greenhouse is bigger heads.

3:35:08HoratioYeah. So, there you go. Well, I mean, what about the fact, like, I mean, everyone's like, indoor, and I'm like, indoor's not a setting. Indoor can be any cockfuck between CFLs to Gavitas.

3:35:22Todd MccormickFor the record, not to cut you off for your show, Sam just said he agreed with Todd.

3:35:29HoratioI'm just asking, like, we've seen metal highlight versus HPS, and we've gone, yeah, the HPS gets me more wood, and wood in the bag gets me more money, but we never said, well, what did the metal highlight trichome heads? Like, just using a basic example of two different spectrums, how did it hit the plant? Like, it's a very easy test most people have done without trying to go to the length of emulating the sun, which is all lights combined.

3:35:54HoratioYou've seen differences in spectrum indoors affect the resin heads. That's why people have wacky lights. That's why CFL doesn't yield any plant material, but it can still yield trichomes. So, like, regionally, the Jamaican sun is different than the fucking Alaskan sun, and that would produce two different outdoor products. So, the argument of outdoor is hard because it's a regional thing.

3:36:18SpeakerExactly, exactly.

3:36:21BubblemanOkay, Sam is saying, no, I said bigger under sun in a greenhouse. He wanted to reiterate that. And then someone else had said something that I wanted to... Oh, I wanted to ask, on a side note, Steve, your last Instagram picture, that giant calyx, what the hell is up with that, dude?

3:36:44Breeder SteveI was just having some fun living in a... We're talking about all these different ways of growing and aeroponics has been mentioned a couple of times.

3:37:17BubblemanLet's talk a little bit about your guppyponics that you did back in the day.

3:37:22Breeder SteveYeah, good. I think for indoor growers and greenhouse, you could have them on your balcony too, but the aquaponics is really a beautiful way to grow. For me, it's the cleanest way inside. I still love a great soil mix, and I still love a plant straight from good soil, but if I'm going to grow them inside, I would do it aquaponically. Because I get the same growth I did out of hydroponics and the taste is so clean.

3:37:53Breeder SteveIt's so specific to the variety. Did your fish have any issues? I fed them cheeseburgers sometimes. I had so many types of fish. I had shrimp, eels. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many types of fish I had in there and aquatic plants. And you had a 400 halide over a 90 gallon aquarium growing these aquatic plants like crazy. And I would take cuttings off of them, stick them in oasis trees, and sell them back to the fish stores, you know?

3:38:28Breeder SteveThe reservoir was producing something before the garden was even done. It was hilarious.

3:38:34EtienneThe reason I ask that, Chris, is that there was years ago, Growers Edge had an article about, you know, as they usually do about aquaponics, And one of the farmers who was using tilapia, he said everything was fine until the tilapia had their own systemic problem that basically infected the whole crop of tilapia, which in turn infected the crop itself.

3:38:58Breeder SteveIt's the monoculture issue again there. You know, if you've got a really diverse ecosystem in it, it can work really well. And the key is you've got to have somewhere where the water... Drys out on a lot of surface area, some type of rocks or whatnot. And it can flood and drain through that as it cycles back. And that's where the good aerobic bacteria take hold. And having the diversity in, we weren't raising one type of fish.

3:39:27Breeder SteveWe had at least 100 types of fish in there. It was ridiculous. You're not supposed to have more than an inch a gallon of fish in aquariums. And we got up to five inches a gallon. But we fed them so much that they didn't have to eat each other. And I was getting live fish to feed them most of the time, but sometimes for shock value I would throw a cheeseburger in there and the Oscars and Piranhas would rip it apart.

3:39:53Breeder SteveIn 60 seconds you wouldn't see a trace of it. It was just mind-boggling. It was more fun watching the reservoir than the room. You know, that's never the case. But if you spend all your time staring at a healthy reservoir... Is that cichlids? Yeah.

3:40:10EtienneYou had a bunch of cichlids in there, etc. That's right.

3:40:12Breeder SteveYeah, there were cichlids. Lots of cichlids, Central American and African ones, Malawi ones. But it was really just a beautiful, beautiful sweet water setup. And the water returned through pipes that had a lot of holes drilled that were across the top, around the outside. So it just sprayed in like A hard, hard rain, and that pulls much more oxygen into the water than just having a little bubbler at the bottom, right?

3:40:39Breeder SteveSo the tank would drain a quarter out to the room, and then if it ever went lower than that, there was a float valve to add water. So the reservoir ran three years without being changed on the same garden. And the only reason we could change then is we moved, you know? But the reservoir was just topped up whenever it got below a certain level. And it was so automated and easy, even though you weren't lugging any soil around or amendments, you were just planting right into rocks and pulling out mesh baskets.

3:41:15Breeder SteveThe mesh baskets would always have nylon wicks that ran down, so there was redundancies built in. It was just a really easy way to grow. I like it for, not only was it easier labor-wise, But the ashes of the smoke were white, not crusty blackish gray or even light gray. They were really white ashes. And it was the first and last toke of a joint would taste the same.

3:41:45Breeder SteveIt didn't get all built up and tarry halfway through. It was really just the cleanest smoke. That's the only reason I would keep doing it is I just love the texture of the smoke was so fine and light.

3:41:58BubblemanYeah, it seemed like the most perfectly cured herb, like the sweet skunk that you did that time on there was just like, oh my God, velvety move.

3:42:10Breeder SteveYeah, you couldn't get a more satisfactory smoke out of it any other way, you know.

3:42:18BubblemanPlus, you're right, it was kind of fun to just check out the reservoir, to check out to see what the fish were doing, and were there not also like some Like a layer of worms or something? Wasn't there some cycle where the fish shit and then the worms ate their shit and then the worms shit fed the plants or something? Or am I making that all up in my head?

3:42:37Breeder SteveWell, there wasn't worms. What was there? Just fish? Just the fish and eels, crabs, shrimp.

3:42:46SpeakerLots of bacteria and microbes.

3:42:49Breeder SteveYeah, yeah. As long as it's really well aerated and hitting lots of surface area with rocks, I had the flowering section was set up aeroponic, aquaponic. So the flowering tables had deep two and a half feet roots hanging down with the wicks. And there was misters in there. And then when the water drained out of that area, it went into the mother marshes, I called them. And those were just big rubber mates full of rocks with large mesh baskets on top.

3:43:21Breeder SteveAnd the level in those would go up and down because they would be up on blocks and there would be a last one on the floor. So the water would drain through them and then a sump switch would come on and return the water to the aquarium. But while it did that, it also fed drip lines back in the flower. So it was getting another little rock rinse back there, alternating with the mister.

3:43:46Breeder SteveSo the mister would come on for a bit to drain the aquarium into the flowering room. The return sent most of the water back to the aquarium, but it also ran drips in the flowering. So that water just keeps cycling, and it was just incredible. You could probably do the whole thing just with algae eaters and the like, because so much algae would grow on the walls.

3:44:08Breeder SteveYou'd have to have a lot of algae eaters, and they would just work it and work it and work it. Did it smell at all? The plants would stay green.

3:44:19Breeder SteveDid it create a big stink?

3:44:21SpeakerDid it smell?

3:44:24Breeder SteveNo, no, it didn't smell at all. It smelled very nicely.

3:44:29SpeakerSo it didn't have like a swamp kind of smell, like swamp gas or anything like that?

3:44:34Breeder SteveNo, no. If it wasn't moving, it would. But it was moving really a lot, right? So the water was very, very clean. Right. Very fresh. I never drank it, but you probably could, but I wouldn't. There was a lot of fish in there.

3:44:50SpeakerRight. Now, the reason why I ask about smell is smell is usually indicative if there's, you know, some type of process of respiration that the bacteria is basically digesting and then either through what's called eutrophication. I mean, there's a lot of different processes by which they could actually emit gas that, again, can actually be beneficial for the plant's life, which is why I was asking about smell.

3:45:17Breeder SteveYeah, it didn't have a strong smell. It just had a clean smell.

3:45:23SpeakerSo again, we were talking before about the challenge that the plant has outdoors versus indoors. I mean, this place, from the way you're describing it, it's got its own little sort of microbiome in there and its own little bacteria and microbial population that, again, All the different organizms sort of fit into the puzzle and thrive. I find that fascinating. I really do.

3:45:53Breeder SteveIt's really wicked to try. I recommend everybody that grows should at least try a mini setup with a plant and just try it for yourself because it's really easier than you think. You just get the balance there and you're not adjusting as a whole lot after that. It'll find a sort of equilibrium and just keep circulating. It's easy, easy, easy, and really it's the cleanest tasting pot.

3:46:21Breeder SteveI kept the reservoirs outside of the rooms, and often we installed them. I had a grow shop at the time that built aquaponic systems for people in Vancouver, so we would install the aquarium in your living room, and you'd have your basement lit up underneath, and water would come and go out of the aquarium a little bit all day, but nobody really noticed, you know.

3:46:44SpeakerTotally cool. And you can listen to fish music while you're doing it, so you could... Of course.

3:46:49Breeder SteveYeah, you had to.

3:46:51SpeakerYou had to. You could really double down, right, Mark?

3:46:56Breeder SteveYeah.

3:47:00BubblemanThat's awesome, man. Super awesome. Good to hear the old stories.

3:47:06SpeakerI'm making some bacon-infused hard candy just because there's a few nuggets kind of sitting around on a... A pile of stems that were just going to be repurposed. So I figured, well, let's put them to purpose, right? So anyway, everyone's got bacon fat sitting in their kitchen somewhere. All you need to do is, you know. Not the English. They drip that shit on toast. Yeah, man. Well, just decarb your weed in your bacon fat, drop it into some molten sugar, and you'll have candy.

3:47:37SpeakerHard candy.

3:47:39BubblemanPan drippings.

3:47:40SpeakerPan drippings on toast, mate. You can put the Canadian touch on it, Mark, by adding a little maple syrup, you know.

3:47:49BubblemanI personally have not eaten bacon in a long, long time. Ah, but bacon infused candy is a completely different thing, dude.

3:48:00HoratioI'm not eating meat. This is infused bacon. It's different. The chemist told me.

3:48:05SpeakerBacon fat, man. It's like totally, it's innocent. It's all good. Just a bunch of triglycerides. It's all good. Bacon fat is like the epitome and sweat and grease and grime of what he doesn't eat. Like a vegetarian is like, hey man, you want to eat some bacon fat? I got some meat juice for you, buddy. I got some meat juice for you, buddy.

3:48:38BubblemanAh, you know, I could do a little meat juice.

3:48:41SpeakerMight as well eat some bone marrow with it, you know, get some bone marrow and some... Like a patch, like a patch, hey, bone... I'm doing it for the science, it's a solvent, man, I need the solvent.

3:48:53Todd MccormickDon't worry, it's just a ground up anus, man, it's totally cool.

3:49:00SpeakerHow come all your dabs taste like bacon?

3:49:05Breeder SteveBacon flavored, bacon flavored, ugh.

3:49:09SpeakerMark's over there like, yeah, I quit my day job at DuPont. I now live in Colorado. I grow weed and I make hash with bacon fat. Yeah, it tastes like bacon. Yeah, it smells like bacon. Every dab's bacon.

3:49:24BubblemanOregon, get it straight. Tony, you should probably get on the bacon turps.

3:49:28SpeakerYeah, sorry, Oregon. Sorry, Oregon. I'm going to try to extract bacon fat turps.

3:49:36HoratioI tried to gum up the whole equipment and then to keep the equipment kosher so Bubble Man doesn't taste meat in his turps, you have to clean it and then torch it and put it in a kiln. It's brutal. It's not worth it. It smells like you're rendering people.

3:49:53BubblemanIt's not fun.

3:49:55SpeakerThis is the anti-vegan turp. Meat turp. Oh, meat turps. Oh, meat turps.

3:50:02BubblemanMeat turps. When are you coming to town, Steve, to Vancouver? I want to show you these terpenes.

3:50:09Breeder SteveI'm due for a visit, yeah. I haven't been down in a while, so.

3:50:12BubblemanYou got some turps?

3:50:13Breeder SteveI was going to try and get down before Christmas.

3:50:16BubblemanYeah, you should do it, man.

3:50:20Breeder SteveIf not, I'm coming in the new year for sure because I got Black Sabbath tickets. Nice. That's awesome.

3:50:27BubblemanI brought my son to Black Sabbath the last time they were here. We were in like the fifth row. Nice. Yeah, it was pretty...

3:50:37BubblemanI first listened to Black Sabbath when I was like 11 years old, and like around 12 or 13, I was pretty deep in at that point. And so to take my son when he was 11 years old to Black Sabbath live, albeit they were older... Still, they put on a pretty rocking show, and the dude they have playing drums, I don't know if it's the same for the tickets you have, Steve, but they had this young guy playing drums, and he was pretty incredible.

3:51:05SpeakerWho's the guitar player? What's that? Who's the guitar player now?

3:51:11BubblemanWell, it was Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler were both guitar and bass.

3:51:16SpeakerNice.

3:51:17BubblemanYeah, that's who I saw. It was Ozzy, Geezer, and Tony, and then just the drummer dude, I can't remember what his name was, but he got the boot from the tour I saw. And now this tour, the one Steve's talking about, is like for sure the last tour, you know, as they say, if you believe them.

3:51:38BubblemanIt would be a good show to see nonetheless.

3:51:40EtienneI had a great time.

3:51:43BubblemanI'll tell you, when Tony Iommi lays those riffs down, it's like, holy shit. It literally sounds like 30 or 40 years ago and they're in a garage. It's such a raw, killer sound. One of the things that we love about Black Sabbath. By no means would I say that they were overproduced.

3:52:08SpeakerGood times. Did they have the coughing before Sweet Leaf?

3:52:17SpeakerDid they do the coughing? No, no coughing?

3:52:22BubblemanYeah. Oh, yeah. Heard the coughing, man. Know the coughing well.

3:52:26SpeakerNo, but did they do the coughing when they played the song live, I was wondering?

3:52:29BubblemanOf course. Everything, man. Everything sounded amazing right up until two-thirds of the way through the show, and then Ozzy just lost his voice, and he was like, sorry, we're done now. I was like, man... I was happy to get two-thirds of a show, to be honest, because it could have just been a quarter of a show.

3:52:47Breeder SteveYeah, it's more just the...

3:52:50BubblemanDoes it say he stopped the show at two-thirds of the way? It was still a long show, but yeah, as his voice was cracking towards the end, the first songs, like, Nine or ten songs were killer. They literally, he was hitting the notes and they were sounding exactly, no matter, even without Ozzy's voice cracking, if his voice cracked, Geezer and Tony were so on point with this young drummer that it was just like the tightest Sabbath you've ever heard live.

3:53:21BubblemanSo, trust me, even if you get six songs, Those six songs will be so killer, and he just nailed, he puts them out one by one. I mean, keep in mind, dude, Ozzy was a fucking maniac. The fact that he's alive is incredible.

3:53:39BubblemanYou know what I mean? I don't think anyone can deny that.

3:53:44SpeakerI thought he died a decade ago, and then all of a sudden he was like on reality TV, and I'm like, that dude's still alive? No way! It's not possible. And it was like, yeah, there he is. And I was like, I can't even believe it. And like Hollywood resurrected and then preserved him for another 30 years.

3:54:02BubblemanIt's incredible. Him and Keith Richards. Yeah, did you guys see the meme that was going around with Keith Richards that said, we're going to have to start thinking about what kind of world we're going to leave to Keith Richards.

3:54:21Breeder SteveThat's correct. I didn't see that. That's good.

3:54:24BubblemanIt's a great meme. It went around quite good. It was my friend Paul DeFeliz from the Holy Smokes in Nelson was the one that came up with that meme. Man, it was a funny one.

3:54:34EtienneIt's true, right?

3:54:35BubblemanIt's like, yeah, Keith Richards is for sure just going to outlive everyone.

3:54:42BubblemanI always said whatever deal the Stones made with the Devil, that was definitely some, they made a better deal than most, let's just say, out of all those people that made the deal with the Devil. The Stones seem to have gotten the best contract.

3:54:55SpeakerI mean, they've been around for like 50 years. I saw their anniversary concert.

3:55:03BubblemanIt was insane.

3:55:08SpeakerSo how old are they, like 75? Absolutely in their 70s.

3:55:17SpeakerWow, so they're 70 years old. 75, something like that.

3:55:22BubblemanBut more importantly, and I'll say this, I saw the Stones in Toronto. They did a 50th anniversary tour. It wasn't a single concert. They did a ton of U.S. dates. But they always start their tours in Toronto for whatever reason. Back in the day, they had some serious connection to Toronto. The Rolling Stones have started many a tour in Toronto. Money, money, money, money, money. There's more money in Toronto.

3:55:44BubblemanThat's why. They've done their, no, they have a connection to Toronto. The Stones don't need money, bro. They're like worth hundreds of dollars.

3:55:50SpeakerIt's the money people in Toronto that bring the Stones there.

3:55:53BubblemanTrust me. No, but they have a connection, I'm telling you. Google this and you'll find it, you'll see it. It's a thing. They have a connection with Toronto since like the 60s and it's why they do, they go when they're practicing for a tour, they go to Toronto and they'll like literally practice in Toronto for a couple weeks before the tour starts in Toronto and then goes on.

3:56:14Breeder SteveBut the point was... Because everywhere looks nice after that. What's that? Because everywhere else looks nice after that. No doubt, dude. I'm telling you.

3:56:24BubblemanBut I was lucky enough to be a thing last year.

3:56:26SpeakerThat's their preseason, like sports.

3:56:38HoratioDid you freeze Bubble Man? What happened?

3:56:40BubblemanNo, I just stopped talking because every time I spoke, someone spoke over me, so I figured I would let whoever wanted to talk, talk.

3:56:51BubblemanAnd now it's all quiet, so it's only if I talk that you fucking guys will talk.

3:56:56SpeakerThat's over.

3:57:00Todd MccormickI'm going to say I'm going to jump so y'all have a great day is what I want to say. You too, Todd.

3:57:06BubblemanHey, thank you so much, Todd. And it is 1 o'clock, so we did pull off a solid four hours. I want to thank Breeders Steve for coming out and sharing some stories with us. That was awesome, dude. Much appreciated. And Horatio and Mark Scaldone, Todd McCormick, Tony Verzura, Fletcher, who came in under archive, Skunkman Sam, who was in the chat, and Johnny B, and oh, everyone, thank you guys all for making Hash Church a great dialogue.

3:57:35BubblemanIt really went non-stop today. That was pretty fucking solid. Thank you guys. I'll actually re-watch this one, so we'll see you all next week. Hash Church 62.

3:57:45SpeakerHave a great day, guys.

3:57:47BubblemanPeace.