THC-O Acetate and CBD Effects

0:03BubblemanHey everybody, welcome, welcome, welcome to Hash Church episode 95. 95 weeks in and we are still going strong.

0:13SpeakerI am going to pause that because, well, because it's really annoying.

0:19BubblemanGot to wait every morning to pause that out because it doesn't give me the pause button until it goes live. So that's done. We won't get any more interruptions from that. I will be able to send off a couple of links here. Via email, Skype, and Facebook. Got all the options today, all the options. So I hope everyone's doing really good today. And let's see if that canceled out my new message.

0:46BubblemanNo, it didn't. Thank goodness. Let's get a panel of people involved here. And see what everyone's doing. We already got 200 people tuned in for Hash Church right now, which is incredible. We've only been live for one minute. And I do appreciate all of you guys coming and spending your time with us and going out of your way to make things work out. Hey, welcome guys. Todd and ATN.

1:10Etienne FontanGood morning. Good morning.

1:14BubblemanIt is a good morning. It's 9.01. There's 225 people already scoping out the Church of Hash.

1:21SpeakerThe Church of Hash. Sheesh.

1:23BubblemanThe Church of Hashish.

1:27SpeakerI got to smoke THC-O this weekend. I wasn't really too sure either, so don't feel bad. It's an oxygen molecule added to the THC, and I've got to say, wow. Really? Bro, I felt it as soon as I inhaled. And then after... I'd say 15, 20 minutes, it just kept creeping and creeping and creeping and creeping. I finally called 18 like an hour later like, wow. Everyone has to try it.

1:57SpeakerAnd all it is is an oxygen molecule added in.

2:00BubblemanSo it's like catalytically altered water or something?

2:04SpeakerThere's a Wikipedia page for it, which I'll post in HashChurch, because it's too interesting not to. But yeah, I was hanging out with Brad, who owns Guild Extracts, and we were up here getting high, and he was like, oh, you're going to try this, and he busted it out, and very fascinating. He technically didn't make it a friend of his did. First time I had ever seen it, and when he said THCO, I was on with Sam.

2:27SpeakerWe were on a Skype call with Sam, and Sam was like, what? So we started, and it was very interesting, but...

2:34BubblemanInteresting.

2:34SpeakerI can't wait for more of it. I'd be really flat up saying, well, it's not spice. No. It turns it into what you could say is a semi-synthetic, but it's not a synthetic. It's oxygen, and it's THC. So I'll post the Wikipedia page. I'm still learning about it myself, but the effect was fantastic. Yes, THC-O acetate. Someone just said yes. Somebody gets it right there. Oh, so THC-O-A.

3:04SpeakerWell, it is. It's acetate because it's not decarbed into, you know, yet. But, you know, we decarbed it when we put it on the nail, so. There it is. There it is. Just going to throw that out there.

3:16BubblemanInstantaneous decarboxylation.

3:20SpeakerIt's true. I like it. Perfect.

3:24Etienne FontanSo I'm using this little tool here. We got in the chalice kit. I don't know if you guys are aware of it. It's called a butter cutter, B-U-D-D-E-R. And as opposed to like the heating element for an e-cigarette or a vaporizer, it has these tips and it has a series of tips. That you can put on and it heats up the end so you can literally go into your hash and carve it or just pluck it right off and dab with it.

3:59Etienne FontanIt's really cool. It's probably one of the neatest things people got in the chalice kits. But neat little piece of technology because as we know Shatter and You know, butter can be very unpredictable, and when you hit it, it can shatter everywhere. So, having something like this is very, very cool. And I wish I had tried the CHC. Oh, the other night. That sounds amazing. I want to give a shout out to Team Cannabis.

4:25Etienne FontanRight now, they're actually marching in San Francisco for the AIDS walk. Yeah! And we raised more money than Google, than Microsoft, than any other... Organization and group. It's all the different cannabis dispensaries and organizers we got together. And we're supporting the walkout there as the people do the walk for AIDS. So great job team. Great job everybody.

4:49BubblemanI saw that. Very cool indeed. Those are some pretty big names to be up there with, you know, as obviously companies that are producing hundreds of millions to billions of dollars. It's got to make you feel good when you are raising more money than like the biggest monster blue chip corporations on the planet.

5:08Etienne FontanIt just shows you the responsibility that we all feel because again, Berkeley Patients Group was founded by a gentleman by the name of Jim McClellan and Jim died in 2001 due to AIDS. So we've never forgotten that message to give back and never forget one where we came from Thank you so much for joining us.

5:43Etienne FontanThank you for joining us.

6:02BubblemanIt's happening. Hey, how about a shout out to the M-I-S-S-I-S-S-I-P-P-I, Mississippi. B420 always in the chat room just saying, how about a shout out for Mrs. Hippie. Well, we're shouting out Mrs. Hippie right now. In fact, we're going to have a giant fucking puff down session for Mrs. Hippie right now. At least a bowl anyway. I don't know how much of a giant puff down session it'll be.

6:25BubblemanDepends on if Tony comes in in the near future. Things could get out of hand fast if he comes in. He might have to open a jar.

6:32Etienne FontanOh, he hooked me up with all kinds of wonderful stuff last week. This is a thing I'm going to start off with. Red Congolese. Yeah. Had some Dog Walker.

6:45BubblemanDog Walker I've heard very good things about.

6:49Etienne FontanOh, dude. You must have. And the Covello Sour Diesel again also. All of Mr. Bubble Man's brand, I must say. Very good stuff. Keep up the good work.

7:00BubblemanWell, thanks for the support. It's easy to do when you've got the right people supporting on you. We always talk about standing on the shoulders of giants in Hash Church, and it's definitely something that I appreciate being able to do. So cheers, fellas.

7:17Etienne FontanTo Mississippi and to the Vatican. Cheers, guys, and good morning.

7:25SpeakerHey, right on to the people that have been tuning in to the University of Vermont. That is really incredible that they're offering those online classes for free, and I hope they do it again. I hope more universities tune in to this and start offering continuing education courses for cannabis for adults now that it was obviously not available in our schools leading up to now.

7:47Etienne FontanWell, the new one is actually charged. It's actually a $10... Course certification, and it costs a couple of thousand dollars, but it's the first university to give you accreditation for the courses. You can either take the $2,000 and do, I think, all the courses, or you can actually pay for individual accreditations because it's broken down from, you know, biology to rights, et cetera, et cetera. So it gives a whole slew of things, all in all.

8:19Etienne FontanSo, yeah, I posted it in the Facebook community for Hash Church if people are interested in getting further education or to look into the possible accreditation. But I give huge kudos to the University of Vermont for taking the lead and showing other universities how it's done so that we can actually... Hey, welcome, Sam.

8:58SpeakerWell, I think more than that, we really have to try to encourage these universities and colleges to start offering cannabis as a curriculum subject. I mean, the history is so rich. The chemistry is so interesting. The endocannabinoid system is so important. This is not something that our educational institutions should be able to ignore much longer. You know there should be a demand from the public that wants this knowledge and the only way we're going to get it is if we communicate to the people that run these schools that they have to offer it.

9:29BubblemanI think otherwise you're going to see the same thing that you see with, it's going to become another way to make money off of cannabis and cannabis people and you'll see a lower integrity of people come into it and start just doing like a lower version of it and I do hope that I mean, it's just like, you know, we had the Cannabis Cup, and then we had 800 Cannabis Cups, and then we had a Cannabis Conference, and then we had 800 Cannabis Conferences, and it's always very difficult.

9:52SpeakerMark, can I just say this? Don't be afraid of the future, brother. I mean, people are making money teaching history, teaching math, teaching English for decades, centuries.

10:02BubblemanNot afraid of the future at all. Always, always, always, because the cannabis industry is such a unique industry that these sort of parasitic sharks just hang out at the edge of. And I've seen more of them coming in. Definitely not afraid. I think cannabis has fought prohibition, which they definitely can't be worse than that. And it grows up out of the cracks of concrete like dandelions. I know how strong it is and I have All the faith in the plant whatsoever.

10:30BubblemanI really hope that some good education comes out of these universities in regards to cannabis information.

10:39SpeakerAnd you know, I don't for a minute doubt that we'll get both. I mean, humanity is a big mix of shit and wonderful. So, you know, I'd like to see it all expand. I mean, part of what caused me to say that comment is a lot of the problems we're seeing from people that are afraid of the laws passing or regulations coming down is they're afraid of what they don't know is going to happen.

11:01SpeakerAnd I'm not afraid of it. You know, bring it on. Bring change on. Prohibition was scary as fuck, and I don't need jackbooted thugs with freaking machine guns and dogs crashing in my front doors because I'm growing flowers any longer. So because I'm over that, I'm not afraid of anything legalization has to offer.

11:20BubblemanHow could it ever get worse than that? Let's be honest. How could it ever get worse than what Todd just described? Goons kicking in your door with machine guns. One day we'll look at this reality and think, people will, you know, hopefully we'll tell stories as ancient grandfathers and our children will look at us with this look on their face like, whoa.

11:44Etienne FontanWell, it caused us to be so angry that we actually got active and got involved and did something about it as opposed to sitting on the sidelines and going, golly gee, that's terrible, that's awful. You know, we all found that we have a voice, that we can exercise our voice and that our voice means something. So, you know, we allowed the DEA to do this. We allowed them and allowed this escalation to continue.

12:07Etienne FontanSo it's our own... Thank you so much for joining us.

12:22Etienne FontanEven as action comes out to further and better their lives, they're still so inhibited by the prohibition lifestyle that they're willing to fight for prohibition continuously. It's amazing the...

12:36SpeakerHold on, break it down for honesty. They're so fucking addicted to the high profits they're making off of a few people being able to grow the ganja... That they don't want to see their profits drop and they're now using every lie they can imagine to come out against the imaginary friggin' boogeyman that's legalization. And it's interesting because I got a shit ton of haters on Dougies, on Hitman Glass, on Chalice.

13:00SpeakerAll these people saying they were going to blast me and talk to me. I even got threats of violence because I am coming out for legalization on my friend's Instagram accounts. And then I walked through Chalice. Not one person said one negative thing to me about legalization at all. And you know, it's all based on fear. Everything that people are coming at me at, they're all afraid of tomorrow.

13:21SpeakerThey're afraid of watching the prices drop. They're afraid of corporate cannabis coming in. And they bitch about it on their corporate iPhone. It's so freaking ironic, I don't know what to say. Well, you've got to remember, those same haters defeated Prop 10. Prom 19. You know, actually, I believe they did not. You know, to be really honest, you know, I had my heart broken when we didn't carry Humboldt County.

13:46SpeakerMendocino County and Trinity County, the Emerald Triangle. But when I actually looked up their population statistics and realized that they have so few voters up there that even if all three had voted for Prop 19, we literally wouldn't have changed our exit numbers at all because they account for like less than one-tenth of one percent of the vote. So I hate to say it, but every grower in Trinity County, Humboldt County, and Mendocino County could vote for Prop 19 and we would have still lost.

14:16BubblemanIt seems strange that you guys have this, you know, the argument I see against OMA, it's almost as though, you know, when we were trying to get hemp growing in Manitoba, there were no licensing whatsoever for growing cannabis, period. It was completely illegal and we wanted to get hemp growing. You know, how we got our foot in the door, like with OMA with six plants or whatever the limits are, that's called the foot in the door.

14:38BubblemanAnd with hemp, how we got our foot in the door is not only did we find low THC hemp, we found The lowest THC hemp, so it was .03% lower than the government themselves were requiring. So by doing that, we allowed hemp to get growing in our province, you know, in 1995. Now, if people had stood up and said, No way, we've got to have high THC, that's ridiculous.

15:06BubblemanIt's like, it's called a foot in the door. It's not saying that we're going to get rid of all the THC, it's just saying for this particular five acre experimental crop that we're trying to fucking get grown in our province for the first time in 75 years. It's a foot in the fucking door. Do people not really understand that's what it is?

15:24Etienne FontanIt's a bizarre Stockholm Syndrome. It really is. People have been held hostage in their lives, in their personal lives, and in their financial lives so much that they don't know how to react when that changes upon them that they've actually craved. In the back of their minds that they've forgotten that they wanted.

15:42SpeakerHold on though. Stockholm Syndrome is different from this in the sense that these people are financially motivated to lie. The people in Stockholm Syndrome actually organically became friendly with the people that held them captive. It was completely different. This is a situation where you have people that are using things like the California Hemp Initiative as a political football because they want to be obstructionists because they don't want to see the prices drop in the organic cannabis market that they're a part of.

16:09SpeakerThat's the truth. They want to keep organic cannabis artificially expensive so that they can continue what they call small family farms and they continue to make bank off doing a very little bit of work. That's what they're afraid of. That's what they're afraid of corporate cannabis. It is a monetary motivated protest and it's bullshit and now they're coming out. Oh, dude, let me finish, though. Now they're coming out with this CHI 2018 shit, which kills me, because you know what?

16:34SpeakerWhen we did Prop 19, they were like, CHI 2010. Well, then there was CHI 2012, CHI 2014, CHI 2016, and these clowns haven't even gotten any money, any organization, any... Never been on the ballot. Never anything, and now we're supposed to wait again for 2018? I find it offensive.

16:56Etienne FontanWe were doing a similar initiative... CCHI back in 94-95 and that didn't help us.

17:03SpeakerDude, I helped Jack right here.

17:05Etienne FontanI know. I circulated it and used to carry every different colored goddamn sheet because we had to have a different color for all the different counties in California.

17:13SpeakerYeah, absolutely. The real truth of it is the criteria is simple. Will it make it better than it is today? And for recreational smokers, it's so fucking obvious. Well, you know what bothers me about this is when we, when we, when Jack Herra and I, when I was part of Jack Herra's organization in 94 and then we rewrote it and we did the California Health and Health Initiative 95, we actually had a map of every single zip code in every single place in California and we actually tried to get signatures, we actually tried to get it together, we actually tried to make it on the ballot.

17:47SpeakerThese people are lying. They're not actually gathering the signatures. They're not actually printing all of the initiatives. They're not going into all of the various zip codes and putting people in front of the supermarkets and actually trying. They're lying about it and they're making us think that they're actually the ones that are going to legalize pot in California when truthfully they are doing nothing to legalize weed.

18:07SpeakerThey don't want to see it legalized and they want to see the prices, if anything, go up so that they can go back to making the money that they romantically used to make decades ago.

18:18BubblemanThere's no shortage of people wanting to make that old school profit, that is for sure. It sure fell out of the bottom here in BC, even though the way we talk about the prices from 10 or 20 years ago, I'm certain we're going to talk about them like that 10 or 20 years from now.

18:35SpeakerIn California the prices peaked around 5,000, other places even higher.

18:42Etienne FontanThe peak has already happened, it's never going back up.

18:46SpeakerThe peak prices went way down. You know, though, this is the upside of it. We're seeing a billion dollars in commerce in Washington State alone since legalization passed. That money did not go to corporations. It went to growers, people that set up farms and did the work. It went to trimmers. It didn't just evaporate into the hands of Monsanto. It's literally people like us that went and got permits and went and threw the weed.

19:12SpeakerAnd it's people like us that went into the shops, bought the weed, smoked the weed, and enjoyed it. I mean, this is part of us being part of a normal market. I mean, the whole underground black market, having to hide what you're doing, slipping behind a dumpster to smoke a joint while there's a whole bar full of people in there sipping whiskey, I think has to end.

19:32SpeakerAnd I can't wait to see cannabis pennies on the pound. I can't wait until you see greenhouses and outdoor fields as far as the eye can see. And we're not going to see that until we actually have legitimate resources of laws that are basically strengthening our ability to be free. That's it.

19:53SpeakerAmen.

19:58BubblemanAmen. Amen. Amen. Testify. Oh, he would testify.

20:09Etienne FontanActually, he'd be like me and declare the 5th and 10th Amendment. Not testify.

20:15BubblemanHopefully, Chimera's just kind of getting up and organizing. I did make the mistake of mentioning that Fred Gardner would come in today, so it's... No, Fred's not coming.

20:25SpeakerHe's not coming. No, Fred. Fred checked out.

20:29BubblemanOh my God, I love it. See what happens when I mention something and make a plan?

20:34Etienne FontanYep. And Rob was wondering why things don't go all to consecutive order. It's for this simple reason. We go with the flow because you ask for people to show up. I've tried to get people to show up and it's like herding cats.

20:49SpeakerNo, what you have to do is you have to get three people to promise and hope that one of them actually make it.

20:58Etienne FontanYou know all three would cancel.

21:00SpeakerI also had tried to arrange Chief Seven Turtles from the old Simpsonia Tips breeder advice. Oh, yeah.

21:11Etienne FontanOh, hey, Todd actually hit me up. He was working with a friend of mine, Vernon, this week, and they hit me up with a question. We know when we eat edibles and THC can turn to a lexahydroxy metabolite when it goes to the liver. When CBD is eaten... What does it turn into?

21:30SpeakerThere's two metabolites. I think one of them is 5-hydroxy, one's 7, and 6-hydroxy, something like that. But nobody knows if they're more or less active than CBD.

21:45Etienne FontanSo research has to be done on this. So researchers, there you go. We need to know the effects of CBD orally ingested because we have a lot of new CBD things that are being ingested.

21:55SpeakerI asked Roger Pertree and he answered for us. But the answer is we don't know. More research needs to be done.

22:06Etienne FontanInteresting. It made sense to me that it has to break down to something.

22:11SpeakerAt the same time, too, I also inquired about 11-Hydroxy. 11-Hydroxy binds to both the CB1 and the CB2. I knew there was a difference because it feels different to me than THC in the way it binds at the receptor 1 only. I want to thank you, Sam, for looking that up for us. Our question, the reason we brought that up is because We were wondering if we ingested CBD orally, if it would bring up our tolerances to THC vaporized or smoked.

22:44SpeakerBecause when you vaporize or smoke CBD, it inhibits your body's ability to absorb the THC. Absolutely, that's true, Todd. And I don't know the answer because I never did any oral experiments with CBD, only vaped. Only Victoria. Well, thank you very much. You know, I always respect when you come at me and say, I don't know the answer, but let's look it up. I wish more people had that attitude towards life.

23:09SpeakerIt's real simple. If you know the answer, you know the answer. If you don't, be honest and admit it.

23:16Etienne FontanWell, and we're also within one degree of separation to find somebody who can either answer that or researchers who can research it.

23:23BubblemanNowadays, especially, it's incredible when you think of the network of researchers and just social media even for people that don't have all of the connections can access an absolutely Incredible amount of information.

23:39SpeakerI would like to do this, though. Anyone listening, go to Hash Church in our Facebook group, and I would like to find out if people are experiencing, people that are starting to either ingest CBD, are they feeling like there is more of a, are they feeling like there's more of an inhibit, if it inhibits their ability to THC? Well, even more interesting is because they're doing it, if they're eating the CBD orally, and how it would affect both oral and smoked THC would be very interesting.

24:15SpeakerYou still have to mute your microphone, Dash. You're inhaling and exhaling. Yeah, I can hear you, Todd. You're speaking over us. Did I just say that? I sent you a message of all people. Sorry, Ash. I was sending a message to him.

24:33Etienne FontanWell, I was going to speak on what you were saying is that just continuing onward, you weren't on, Sam, when Todd talked earlier. He was talking that he got to try the THCO acetate. What did you think of that the other day?

24:49SpeakerAre you asking me? No, I was asking you, Todd. Come on. No, I was asking you.

24:59Etienne FontanNo, I've never taken the acetate. I've never taken the acetate. I know, but you watched Todd and you guys talked about it.

25:05SpeakerTodd absolutely enjoyed it, which is why I'm asking him to say so. I loved it. It was incredible. I mean, honestly, I didn't know THC could have a nice little tale like that. It was enjoyable. It felt no different, just more intense. It felt intense instantly, and it took a while, but I've got to say, I mean, if I had more of that in my life, I might have a lot more needs in my life.

25:32SpeakerThe way you could describe it, Todd, would be faster onset. Higher peak experiences, and I don't know about the length of the high because... Yeah, what was the longevity? I don't know, but we started making food at midnight. We were really hungry. You hit the kitchen hard.

25:53SpeakerI was impressed. I mean, if it's just about that, you know, see, this is why people have to... So there's a book, if you all really want to get into it, Alexander Shulgin wrote a book called Pakal. It's called Phenylethylamines I Have Known and Loved. That's the acronym for it. And there is a chapter in it, I believe page 26, that talks about the Blackwood Arsenal. So back in his days at Dole, he said some basically government men showed up with a molecule that was...

26:21SpeakerBasically, not to be known. It was classified. So they wanted to basically put these together and they were trying to figure it out. At the time, this was pre-mishulam. So this would have been atoms 9 compound and no known THC molecule. So the fact that Shulgin was a stoner, he knew how to basically mix some chemicals, some lichens he found off rocks, and it was amazing. But when you read the chapter, he talks about basically explaining that Mother Nature kind of blew it when she made THC because she didn't add a nitrogen molecule to it.

26:55SpeakerBut if she had, he figured out, it would be like 512 times stronger, right?

27:02SpeakerAnd it would be unusable by humans. Yeah, it's a very fascinating fact of nature. All our other psychedelics have a nitrogen molecule. So phenylethylamines and tryptamines, Mark Scaldone could explain it probably a little better, but cannabis is unique. Most of them are alkaloids. Cannabis is not.

27:23SpeakerYeah, cannabis is amazingly deplete of nitrogen-containing compounds. And the issue with those is that they don't cleanly vaporize. A lot of them decompose. And so that's why some, I mean, I'm not sure about the phenethylamines. I think that those will decompose. I don't think you can get orally active preparations, but I don't think you can smoke it.

27:54Etienne FontanWe had heard in the 90s rumors that somebody had added a oxygen molecule to the end of the chain of THC and ingested it and was so high it took them 12 hours to crawl 15 feet to a bathroom. That was a rumor. Got no control of that, but again, that was the rumor that it got them so high that it incapacitated them significantly.

28:19SpeakerFortunately or unfortunately, I didn't have that experience, but... Not really sure right now. What brand of acetate did you have, Todd? Well, it's not, you know, it's not a brand. My friend that brought it over, he owns Guild Extracts, and Brad showed me, and he did not make it. His friend made it, but it was incredibly fascinating. And, you know, the other thing is, I mean, this is funny, and I've taken pictures of it, but, you know, right now this THCA, which I just dumped on my desk, is a...

28:53SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

29:10SpeakerTo medicate yourself without having any psychoactive effects. So this is kind of where the conversation chemically was going because we were wondering if everyone starts ingesting CBD, are they going to need a shit ton of weed or hash or dabs to get high? It's an honest question though because this is, you know, part of why we do it is for the euphoric effect and if CBD is going to mitigate that, then people, you know, their cannabis bill might go up.

29:37SpeakerRemember, Todd, when I vaped 100 milligrams, a tenth of a gram of pure CBD, first in the morning before anything else, it took me 8 to 12 hours to get high on my hash.

29:53BubblemanNo doubt you consider it the anti-high.

29:57SpeakerIs that, Sam, because literally the molecule, the CMD molecule, kind of like bumps into the receptor and bumps the THC out of it? No, no. It doesn't occupy the same space. All it does is modulate how it binds. So somehow it's forcing it not to bind, but it does not occupy the space.

30:17SpeakerOkay, I was just going to... Can people hear me? No? Yes?

30:24Etienne FontanYes?

30:25SpeakerI hear you, John. Okay, perfect. When I was in the hospital, I was consuming a lot of the CBD just in the oil form. At the same time, I was smoking on my vapor pen. I didn't find that I was being less high from using the CBD, but I found that I was more relaxed from using it, but I was still being able to get high from the pen and stuff like that.

30:45SpeakerI think it's a balance on what I was feeling. I'm high right now, and I've got some pure CBD, so let's just see. Also, too, John, if you smoke CBD with an equal amount of tea at the same time, you absolutely get high in stone. Yeah. I was eating it and smoking. I don't know nothing about eating CBD. I've never done it. It was just some oil that I had.

31:10SpeakerLike I was saying, I was getting high from using the pen, and it wasn't knocking me down. Some people say it levels them out. All of the hashish produced in Afghanistan is a mixture of CBD and THC. I guarantee you, you get high when you smoke it.

31:28BubblemanI would only add too that when Sam says CBD, he's talking about like lab grade pure CBD. And John might be talking about like a hemp isolate or it might also have other cannabinoids in it, maybe not made at the same level as what Sam was using back years ago.

31:46Speaker100%. This is CBD made from hemp and I think it's sold, this one in particular is 9% THC and 72% CBD. So there is THC in it.

31:57BubblemanRight, which would make it understandable why you were feeling the effects of being high like Sam was saying that... If you smoke them both together, you'll get high.

32:06SpeakerIf you smoke pure CBD... Big dose, tenth of a gram of pure CBD, 100 milligrams. That's what it took for me and Rob Clark.

32:18BubblemanAnd your hash, though, to not get you high from your hash is... You got the picture. You got the picture.

32:24SpeakerHoly moly.

32:29SpeakerNot only that, but that night, I tossed and I had color dreams, because I dream every night, but I don't ever remember them, because I'm a fairly large smoker. That night, fucking electric color dreams.

32:45BubblemanWow. Interesting. So I wonder if that would work at the end of the night.

32:51SpeakerThis is really cool that you mentioned this, Sam, because I have a friend that's been smoking For years and years, extensively, and he quit smoking for the first time in 25, 30 years, and all he's talking about is how his dreams are so vivid and so awesome right now. He's been talking about it for the last couple of weeks with me. It's real common, John. It's real common, John.

33:10SpeakerIt's really cool to hear you say that, and for my friend just to be talking about it the other day.

33:22BubblemanWe got some action going on in the background. I hear mom yelling at the kids.

33:27SpeakerOh, that was me. Nice. With the 19-year-old, man. Dude. That's what they invented corks for.

33:39SpeakerIt gets interesting when they ask for the keys, right?

33:43BubblemanOh, my God. I'll tell you. I can only imagine. I live on a wicked, harsh highway, too, that's like, It's like generally if we hear sirens, it's like someone has perished. And we hear sirens not as much as we used to before the Olympics. It was even more dangerous of a highway, like it was definitely one of the more dangerous highways in North America. Then they spent like a billion dollars on it and it became a little bit more safe, but still some spots, still some dangerous areas.

34:13SpeakerYeah, so back to the CVD thing, I think we talked about this a few episodes back with Chimera, and so the notion of there being an allosteric, some type of allosteric binding site, because they know that it's not a very high affinity binder for the CB1 site itself, so there might be another site that's associated with some type of signal that has to do with The expression of those receptor sites.

34:47SpeakerAnd so, yeah, I mean, it really begs for all kinds of different scientific study. Yeah, I've read that all hysteric paper. I think you sent it to me, right, Sam? I think you were the one who sent it to me. Yeah, and so Chimera and I had, I think, responded by email on it. I think one of the things again that you can't never really put into a study is how all of these things affect in vivo because there's so many different regulatory processes and there's so many different things going on in the body and when you study an enzyme in a petri dish you might see a particular effect and you have to translate that now to the higher organizm and things just become awash.

35:41SpeakerNot only CBD, but I strongly suspect the THCV has very similar effects to CBD, delaying onset, reducing peak experiences, and extending... Right. Yeah, I think in Ethan Russo's most recent online treatment of the entourage effect, so-called entourage effect, he mentions this, I think, Sam, as being, you know, like all the minor cannabinoids do play Some type of role in either accentuating THC binding or I think it has something to do with some type of regulation of the expression of the receptor on the cell surface, some type of opening up.

36:23SpeakerI haven't proven it yet, but I have preliminary evidence which strongly leads me to suspect it could be true. You were just mentioning about THCV and CBD being similar characteristics. I've found, for me, the strains that I use the most are higher THCV, so that's kind of interesting. Well, I think the other thing... If you like CBD, then you could like THCV also, because THCV is... What do they...

36:58SpeakerIt doesn't bind to the CB1 receptor, but it's an antagonist to the CB1 receptor. It's interesting because I'm not a big CBD fan, but I like strains that are high in THCB. So just as you're saying that, if it's drawing interest and reasons why, it might be this. It's an antagonist to the CB1 receptor. You look at most of the analog work that was done by Hebrew University and Huffman and others, They were really able to show that that part of the binding site can really accommodate a lot of sterile baggage.

37:33SpeakerAnd so the gem, dimethyl, diheptyl analogs are well known. And there's a lot of analogs where you don't just have the simple five carbon pentel tail. I think they're much more bulked up and they're actually increased binders to the receptor when you start bulking up sterically at that group.

38:05SpeakerJohn, you're asking for a link. You want a link for what? What are you looking for? You were talking about that paper in the beginning we were talking about, but... I think that was a little more. Okay. There's a great paper. I think it was posted this week in one of the Facebook rooms on the complete structure activity relationship of both CB1 and CB2 receptors. That link is very convenient, and I can post that.

38:31SpeakerWho wrote the paper? Hold on a second, Sam. I'll pull it up in just a second. I'm just trying to remember if I've already seen it. Someone was mentioning in chat TCV equals painkiller. I seem to like strains that are high in THC and CBB. These are the strains that I've always grown accustomed to that I've seen. So that's why when you're mentioning this, it kind of just draws my attention and maybe it's reasons why all the strains that I mostly grow that I've actually clung on to over the years have been tested higher in THC than the other strains.

39:07SpeakerJust something that works for me. Lots of varieties will have less than one percent. A few varieties have one or two percent. It's really hard to find anything more than that. When we first developed a variety that had 35 percent

39:27SpeakerTHCB of the total cannabinoids. Rob and I smoked it and we just said, oh man, this is fucking hemp, man, this is garbage. Then we made one that was 75% and we liked it even less. We finally ended up with one that was over 85% and we didn't like it at all of THCB I'm talking about.

39:52SpeakerYeah, that's John's mic, okay.

39:55BubblemanSorry guys, just trying to keep the mics. Whatever your background is, John, I don't know if it's a radio show or people talking, but it was coming through pretty loud. It stopped when I muted your mic. I don't know.

40:09BubblemanI don't know. Well, Todd's coughing and turning a very nice red color. I think I might join him.

40:16Etienne FontanEveryone with the rouge face now.

40:19BubblemanTrying to get the rouge face on, that's why I'm wondering how we're missing Mr.

40:22SpeakerTone A. I'm sitting here literally thinking, I hope nobody's looking at me, and Mark, you're just like, instantly like, everybody look at you.

40:30BubblemanHey, I'm going to put the camera on Todd really quick.

40:34SpeakerYeah, the way thoughts go out are just amazing.

40:38BubblemanYeah, it's hard to, like radio waves.

40:45BubblemanNo, my kids have not asked me for anything. My kids don't seem to have an interest in cannabis at this point in time in their lives.

40:54SpeakerOh, they're definitely going to go the other way of dad, bro. You made it so uncool, it's not funny.

40:59Etienne FontanThat's what I think. I watched Ed Rosenthal's kids be totally anti-pot just from hanging out with their parents, friends, and their entire lives. They're like, oh no, I'm not doing that pot stuff, man. I'll do it. I told Debbie when she had her kid, I said, Debbie, don't be surprised if your daughter turns out to be a Republican cop, okay?

41:22SpeakerIf you want them to be really straight, just be nude smoking joints 24-7, and they will not.

41:30Etienne FontanOh, that's an ugly picture. That's therapy. That's years of therapy there.

41:38SpeakerNah, my parents were nudists, bro. I got over it. All the biker things were topless, crazy people, naked. They shouldn't have been. And I'm okay. Oh, no.

41:49Etienne FontanReally? Your mom running around naked?

41:51SpeakerOh, dude. All of them. All of them. I used to think we were going to nude beaches. Now I think it was just they were going away from everybody to get high.

42:01Etienne FontanYeah, my mom walked around naked, but she never smoked pot. Maybe that would have helped.

42:06SpeakerThat might have helped. No, it wasn't just my mom, bro. You just don't get it. All these biker parties were big dude fests of drunk, crazy people.

42:16Etienne FontanBack in the hairy 70s, too. The very hairy 70s.

42:20SpeakerDamn. Okay, maybe therapy would be in order.

42:24BubblemanYeah, there might be some therapy in order. I might need to have therapy just from the mental image that you conjured up in my mind just now.

42:31Etienne FontanTalk about a Brillo party.

42:32SpeakerHoly shit. Well, that last CBD dab I think made me hungry because I had to go get something to eat. That's funny. You know, so I'm working my way through the CBD kit because Dougie was nice enough to give me the CBD kit. And he, the way they presented it was great. And it's kind of fun to try all this stuff. People are really putting in a lot of effort to come up with some really innovative products.

42:56SpeakerI think it's good.

42:58Etienne FontanYeah, I got the rosin. So this is the rosin set. Bam-o. And, you know, they... Had those in. One, the packaging has set another standard for how things come because it comes in this nice little briefcase so you can carry it around with you. The rosins there in the chalice kit, I have to say, are literally some of the best rosins I've ever had in my life.

43:23Etienne FontanEven the worst was still some of the best, without a doubt. They really stepped up broad. The technology is getting there. People don't seem to be pressing past 180 degrees. You know, they're really working on getting rid of the toastiness flavor to the rosin. So they're really with the new squishers out there. Saw the new Sasquatch out there from Soil Grown and the various others. There's so many units out there now.

43:48Etienne FontanEverybody's fighting for their little area of squishiness. But the technology that's being applied now is bringing forth an unparalleled quality of product that I haven't seen before.

44:03SpeakerThat's a good rosin, quality over quantity.

44:08BubblemanIt was episode 25 that we were talking about rosin and making rosin machines where Soil Grown came on. There had not been anyone making a machine prior to that episode. It happened pretty quick with D-Nail modding a t-shirt press, but it's kind of cool to be a little bit of a part of that sort of Helping disseminate that information out to as many people as possible. It's definitely, you know, when you say the toasty rosin flavor, out of all the rosin I've ever smoked, I think I tasted rosin that had been overheated too much one time.

44:43BubblemanOne time I tasted the sort of semi-vaped burnt popcorn taste that was present in the oil, but the majority of the rosin, like 99% of the rosin I've made and that people have shared with me has I mean, even yesterday I met a guy from Squamish who had a couple of flower rosins, really nice flower rosins that just tasted beautiful. I don't think it's too difficult, you know, just don't get it too hot.

45:11BubblemanTake your time, lower temperatures, longer periods of time, and man, can that stuff come out turning pretty damn nice.

45:18SpeakerI just saw 710 watching, so 710 dab. 710 dab.

45:25SpeakerYou know, speaking of packaging, I don't know these people at all, but they had an entry in the CBD. It was called Firehouse Family Farms or something. I like it. And I don't know where the package went, Emerald Family Farms, excuse me, but I got so stoned I must have smoked it. But it had a childproof bottle cap, which I thought was really sharp. And they did a great job, and their product was super.

45:47SpeakerI don't know if they placed, but they should have in my opinion. I was just super impressed.

45:52Etienne FontanThey have those containers in Colorado. They're standard to have the trial-proof containers, and I think that will become a standard here in California as the regulations were allowed in 2018.

46:02SpeakerI definitely think it's a good idea.

46:05BubblemanHere in Canada, we're looking to get containers much like what they use for plutonium or other radioactive nucleotides. I'm joking, of course, but that's kind of how they treat it up here with the biometrics and the three-foot... Thank you for watching.

46:41BubblemanYou know, the absurd, ridiculous regulations like having to take the trim and any leftover plant matter and then grinding it into a $40,000 grinder machine that basically mixes it all with, like, horse shit and then sprays it back out onto the field outside or whatnot because they don't want you to get that added value. It's like, well, what do you mean time out? Like, I'm not going to be cutting off resin to throw it away.

47:09BubblemanThat's resin. That's the raw product that we're actually, the whole reason we're doing this in the first place. So hopefully that goes through for them eventually. It would be nice to, I hate the idea of all of that trim being destroyed. It's a lot of trim.

47:29SpeakerAll my trash from my breeding work was put through a burn facility.

47:38Etienne FontanOuch. That had to be gut-wrenching.

47:41SpeakerNo, I didn't care at all.

47:43Etienne FontanExactly.

47:44SpeakerI used to laugh thinking, I'm killing more plants than most people grow. Fact. All combined. Because that's what breeding is. You reject 95% to look at the 5% or 1% or whatever, half of 1% of the keepers. Right. Welcome, Tony.

48:11BubblemanMorning, Tony.

48:14SpeakerMorning, gentlemen. How's it going?

48:18BubblemanWell, it's a nice, quiet Sunday morning here on Hash Church. We've been having some interesting discussions, as we try to always on Saturdays, or Sundays, sorry.

48:32SpeakerFantastic, because we're in Hash Church.

48:36Etienne FontanTalking THCO, we were talking CBD, all kinds of fun stuff.

48:41SpeakerTHCO. With the THCO acetate, I guess Mark is gone now. Oh, Mark's sitting there. I'm right here. What's up, buddy? Yeah, is that like, like is that pulled out chemically with like ether or something weird? It's a prodrug, and so what you're doing is you're taking the phenolic hydroxyl group on THC, And you're turning it into the acetate ester by reacting it with acetic anhydride. And so acetic anhydride is just the anhydride of acetic acid, and it basically transfers an acetate group to what used to be an alcohol group.

49:20SpeakerSo when you look at the structure of THC and you see the OH group that sits at the top end of the benzene ring there, That's now been made into an O acetate group. And so the acetate group is basically a carbon doubly bonded to oxygen with a methyl group on it. So it becomes a prodrug. And so in vitro, the acetate gets hydrolyzed and that releases THC.

49:47SpeakerBut it also makes a whole lot of difference in the polarity of the ring itself because now what was a very polar OH group has now been made Somewhat nonpolar in that you have a methyl, at least the methyl group of the acetate group makes it a little bit nonpolar. So it could probably slip through the blood-brain barrier a lot easier. It could probably just have completely different binding kinetics to the receptors themselves.

50:17SpeakerAnd again, as the hydrolysis in the body releases THC acetate, it turns it into THC. So it's kind of like, again, what they call a prodrug. And now it's a drug that basically on metabolism gets converted. Could that technology be used for like a time release variation? That's exactly what it's used for. And so like if you look at the inhalers that asthmatics take right now, there's a long acting And a short act is a short acting bronchodilator to give the immediate dilation of the smooth muscle tissue inside the lung, which is basically what happens during a bronchospasm.

51:00SpeakerBut then there's a much more longer acting bronchodilator that has a lot more hydrophobic character to it, so it like nests into adipose tissue and gets itself lost into other ways that can slowly be We've got a couple of questions here. We've got a couple of questions here. We've got a couple of questions here. We've got a couple of questions here.

51:42SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

52:05SpeakerWhat Shulgin did, which was just masterful, is he walked around those aromatic rings and looked at it in his own bioassay with him and his wife, how those affected mostly onset of activity and the intensity of the activity, and found really, really extraordinary effects by such subtle tweaks of the molecule itself.

52:28SpeakerAnd how's it made? I mean, is it made with, you said... THC acetate? Yeah. You make it from THC, so you make it from the clear, so you basically take the clear and you add acetic anhydride, and you have to, in that reaction you get a stoichiometric amount of acid, you get acetic acid formed in that reaction, so you usually have a base in there to scrub the acid like bicarb or something like that.

52:56SpeakerSo bicarbonate would just neutralize the acetic acid that's formed in that process. So yeah, you can do a short path distillation or you can column chromatograph. I think what's in the literature is a short path distillation because I think the boiling point of that is known. But I think you could also column chromatograph it as well. Is that like a white powder?

53:23SpeakerIt should probably be off-white powder at best. I was just looking for it, because I got some from Roji Concentrates, and what you were just saying is what he was explaining to me. I heard that before. Yeah, and we were talking about suppositories, I think an episode or two ago, and the fatty acid esters can be made from something other than acetates, and What El Soli showed is that if you increase the hydrophobic nature of the group that you're putting on rather than acetate, proponate, which would be the C3, or butyrate, which would be C4, all those start to increase the hydrophobic nature of the molecule and really makes it a great candidate for putting it in a suppository, having it basically cross in through the anemicosa into the bloodstream, and then once it's in the bloodstream, Undergo hydrolysis and really give a...

54:17SpeakerI think it was THC semisucate or... Yeah, semisuccinate, semisuccinate, Sam. I think that's it. Right, that was one of them. And that's an interesting one because, again, that's an ester that's derived from a diacid, which is also putting another acid group at the end of the molecule. So that's a pretty interesting one. Would you, you wouldn't necessarily have to do that with TH, with the clear, would you?

54:43SpeakerYou could do that with pure THCA. Yeah, I mean, you're going to be probably needing to do DCAR because, you know, I don't think that you, I don't know if anyone's ever prepped THCA carboxylated because I think... I think what happens, Sam, is that the carboxylic acid reacts also with acetic anhydride, and it makes what's called a mixed anhydride, which becomes much more labile than the carboxylic acid itself.

55:16SpeakerSo I think immediately treatment with THCA will decarboxylate it, but that's just a hypothesis. I don't have any data. When you say treatment with, do you mean ingestion of? No. Todd, this would be a chemical process where you'd be taking, Clear in a flask and adding a chemical reagent to it, mixing it up to make the THC acetate in a pot. Literally. Interesting. In a pot. I want to make a phone call.

55:49SpeakerI'm going to try it with some other things. Uh-oh. Now everyone's going to go run off and try to do chemistry. He's going to do it with turkeys. What does Scott's shirt say? Stand back. I'm going to try chemistry. How about this shirt? No, I mean, it depends on what it's suspended in, you know, so what you just explained makes a lot of sense, so I'm going to apply it.

56:13SpeakerYeah, well, and Tony, remember that if you are doing this to not just purify THCA, so if you have linalool in there, which has a free hydroxyl group, now you're going to make linalool acetate. Linalool acetate will probably undergo thermolytic dehydration to make a, Unsaturated compound, but any other hydroxyl groups that are along the way would definitely also acetylate as well. Hey, Sam, I'm getting texts from Chief Seven Turtles.

56:43SpeakerShould we get him on or what? Yeah, get him on it, Phil. Yeah, get him on? When I send someone the address, this is an old contributor to Sensi Tips back in the day. He's an interesting dude. We'll see if he comes on. I asked him and he said no, but if he'll do it, do it. I vouch for him. Okay. Mark, is it okay for me to send him the link?

57:09SpeakerSure.

57:10BubblemanAbsolutely. Hey, bubble man.

57:15SpeakerFor background, this guy wrote the first breeding articles for Simpsonia Tips magazine. Which was available, I think, from 1979 or something like that until 86. About eight years they were published. I don't know if everybody out there is familiar with Simpsonia Tips Magazine. It used to be one of the best magazines for cannabis.

57:44Etienne FontanStill collector's items.

57:48SpeakerBut this guy is Chief Seven Turtles.

57:54SpeakerWe've had Tom Alexander on the show actually. Tom is a friend now. He's great. He totally shaped the 80s for me. He really showed me through his publications how cannabis was supposed to be grown back in the day. Tom was a friend of mine too. He visited my home and took pictures of my work and I contributed three or four articles for Sensimia Tips.

58:19Etienne FontanWhat was real grower's knowledge from growers to growers? It wasn't the fluff and bunny of high times. It was real knowledge in telling you how to maximize what you were doing. And it was, I mean, I still to this day have yet to find a, as solid a grower's mag out there.

58:39SpeakerPeriod. Read Soft Secrets. It's great. And it's like 20 plus years of it instead of 10.

58:46Etienne FontanWell, this is America. I'm in America. Let me clarify. Pardon me.

58:49SpeakerOh, listen, I'm an earthling, bro. Don't limit yourself. So that THCA that I was talking about that I had. Todd, you're not a galactic citizen of the galaxy? I don't have a spaceship quite yet. But when I get one, I will denounce my Earthling status and go intergalactical. You have to take a good hit of clear light. You'll be galactic.

59:16BubblemanIntergalactic.

59:19BubblemanPlanetary.

59:20Etienne FontanThere we go.

59:25Etienne FontanWhere did you get that shirt, Bubble Man?

59:27BubblemanThis shirt was sent to me.

59:29Etienne FontanI've been trying to find that shirt, actually, because it has Sam the Skunk Man on it.

59:35BubblemanIt has all sorts of names on it, dude. I got this, the corner here. One of them, I think. No, this one, Bubble Man.

59:45Etienne FontanVery nice.

59:46BubblemanHayes Brothers, Chemdog. Chemdog, Peabug. Yeah.

59:53SpeakerThat's what it represents. That's good.

59:56BubblemanThere's a ton of names. So this was a dude, and I wish I knew his exact name because he sent it once and it didn't show up, and then he sent it a second time. So if you are watching, bro, much love for the shirt. I like it. It's very cool. I like how Sam the Skunk Man is like the main right banner. Did that well.

1:00:14Etienne FontanOh, I like that. The real reason was it has old Ed referring to Ed Holloway, which I think needs more recognition and thank Todd for making me aware of him. Fortunately, I was able to meet the man and actually smoke bud with the man and break bud with the man. So that, more than anything, Ed Holloway, there needs to be a movie about his life because, I mean, that man was shit.

1:00:37BubblemanI unfortunately knocked him out unconscious at the Cannabis Cup with some bubble hash on the third top floor of the PAX party house, and man, I'll tell you, you want to hear a pin drop? Because people used to pass out all the time up there, it got hella hot, but it was the quietest I'd ever heard it when he dropped. I was like, oh my God. And even someone said like, oh my God, you killed Ed.

1:00:59BubblemanI was like, I did not laugh. You had to be in the room, Sam.

1:01:06Etienne FontanWell, there's a lot of less oxygen in that room too because you were up there and there's so much smoke that it was definitely hard to breathe as it was and I can imagine the concentration of yours in comparison.

1:01:19BubblemanYeah, it was too much. It was... Thank you for watching.

1:01:38BubblemanAnd she literally, like, I was standing behind her and she completely passed out, like, boom, right back. I caught her in my arms and she was just, like, beet red. She wasn't even smoking. So that was just a full-blown, like, heat thing.

1:01:51SpeakerNo, I was there that day. You gave her a roofie, man. I saw you.

1:01:55BubblemanDude, I had not even talked to that girl. Are you kidding me? Saying shit like that on hashtag.

1:02:02SpeakerOnly joking. Only joking.

1:02:05BubblemanOh, Sammy.

1:02:06SpeakerHey, we're pretty anti-Bill Cosby here, okay?

1:02:10BubblemanYeah. I'm not pulling any of that. That's for darn sure. No chownce. I used to say back in the day at the PAX Party House that I was going to get some really thick, cushiony pads for around my boot with my logo on it, so when people came up to the booth, they'd be like, they'd be like, what are these pads for? And I'm like, oh, that's just for your safety, you know, just to.

1:02:35BubblemanDon't want you knocking out your teeth or breaking your nose. It's the bubble in Bubble Man. See, now people in chat are like, wow, Bubble Man pulled a Bill Cosby.

1:02:50BubblemanIt's loose now, man. It's loose. With the jello pudding.

1:02:55SpeakerYes, jello pudding. Just don't pull an OJ Simpson, you'll be okay.

1:03:00BubblemanHey, you know, someone was mentioning OJ Simpson the other day and saying that they believe he might have CTE, this disease or whatever, brain damage of some sort.

1:03:11SpeakerIt's highly likely. Anyone who's played football as much as he did, he, you know, yeah. I mean, has anyone seen that movie, Concussion? It's a great movie.

1:03:20BubblemanOh, yeah, dude. I saw it. It was crazy. Yeah. As someone who's studied, you must have loved when the dudes are kind of trying, I think it's a whole room of doctors or something, and they're kind of looking at him, or maybe it's the police, I can't even remember. There's a scene where he's trying to explain something and no one wants to listen, and he's got like 20 degrees, like he just has a degree in everything, this guy who the movie is based on, the doctor that discovered CTE.

1:03:50BubblemanPretty incredible story for sure. For me, the reason I learned about it really is because of the conversations that I've been having with Eugene Monroe, with Boo Williams, and the ones that Tony and I had with Ricky Williams in Spain. Never really met football players before, but it seems to be the CTE is a major point of discussion with what's going on as they discover this. And of course, cannabis being a neuroprotector and potentially being able to use as pain relief instead of...

1:04:20BubblemanOpioids. It's a conversation that is definitely at the top of the list for some NFL football players right now. It certainly would be for me. They obviously knew that that kind of job, that sport was destroying their bodies, but I think it's different when you can lose your mind and harm people around you and harm yourself. It becomes a more serious thing to learn about. I do hope that those guys that are moving forward on it

1:04:54BubblemanAnd figuratively, and sort of take this to the, you know, the group of people that NFL football players hold captive with their, in their audience, the people that watch that shit and love it, really connect with the players in the game, they have a powerful ability to preach to a unique group of people that I would definitely say is not the choir when it comes to cannabis and cannabis as a medicine, so.

1:05:19BubblemanIt's pretty exciting to think that they're going to be able to get that message out hopefully eventually through... The NFL platform.

1:05:27Etienne FontanWell, it's a large platform at that. You're talking a billion dollar industry, you know. An interesting one was to watch Kyle Turley. He's now become one of the main propagands. Again, I'm a season ticket holder, diehard New Orleans Saints fan, so I remember when Kyle Turley was drafted and watched him become a successful left tackle for us, for the New Orleans Saints. Then to watch him... Have leave and become, but literally have meltdowns and actually just rail against because he hadn't discovered cannabis at the time and the medications and the things that he was trying to do.

1:06:07Etienne FontanHe just, I moderate one of the Saints fan sites so I keep, I've followed him through his entire life so. I know the story intimately from then watching him have public meltdowns to the point where he would go out and give speeches and rail against just life in general because he was so confused. And then now to see him find medical cannabis after being a proponent for multiple generations now.

1:06:34Etienne FontanAnd Ricky Williams fortunately came through my facility back in 2006 and I was able to talk to him about it. But to see Kyle then become together again. And to see him become a functional member of society to where now he's out there speaking and becoming an activist as well as a patient advocate himself has been very powerful to see because I know that he can reach and those players can reach whole other levels of people that would never necessarily listen to us or give us the ear.

1:07:09Etienne FontanAs well as seeing how many of these players now we saw players and a player from the Baltimore Ravens give a bunch of money this year. Whoa, easy Tony. And give a whole bunch of money to research and then he was cut from the team. You know, because the NFL wanted to distance themselves from this type of situation. So here's somebody who gave, I think, what, like $80,000 or $100,000 to research himself.

1:07:37Etienne FontanYou know, for medical cannabis and yeah, putting it out there and getting the press around it showed that the NFL still has bias and he was basically kicked off the team. So even though there are these ex-players doing it, it shows that even current players, if they try to do it, the NFL is definitely blocking it. But at the same time, I know these players are listening.

1:08:04Etienne FontanI know all these players have seen concussion. I know They're watching these ex-players that were superstars now talking about using cannabis in a whole other way that has to be a catalyst to some degree to all the current players out there because CT is a major thing and knowing that cannabis is a neuroprotectant is a key reality as much as we realize how depleted most of society's endocannabinoid system is.

1:08:39Etienne FontanSo I think it's a great way to see these players that were just great sports people in their day now step out of that role and become advocates that will help Many people along the way, so I applaud them greatly.

1:08:58SpeakerI applaud them too, but dare I say it again, it sucks that we have to wait until these problems step on our toes for us to open our eyes and react to what's around us, and I wish more people wouldn't wait until they had cancer or wait until they had HIV or AIDS or wait until they had a concussion condition and they suddenly have no choice but to step out and be honest about things.

1:09:21SpeakerYou know, we need more people, more family members that are affected by people around people to come out and realize, you know, this is crap. You know, I don't feel that we're on the same playing field we used to be 20 years ago with smartphones in everybody's hands and the access to the internet, which is basically an access to the largest library of information in the world.

1:09:43SpeakerEverybody should have the ability to be able to look stuff up, find the truth, and be realiztic about this. I mean, That's what's important. Oh, hey, welcome. Hello. That's Chief Seven Turtles. Hey, Scott. Please forgive me. It's the first time I've been on this. I'm not really still figuring it out here.

1:10:05Etienne FontanWell, you figured it out perfectly. We can hear you no problem at all.

1:10:09BubblemanYep, that happened quick and easy in my opinion. Welcome to Hash Church there, Chief, and D420K in behind you.

1:10:21SpeakerSo I've been listening to you guys for a little while. I watched a few of your episodes, but this is really, I didn't even know about this until a couple days ago.

1:10:33BubblemanWell, it goes to show you how advanced you are in the world. Two days ago you learned about it, and then 48 hours later you're on it.

1:10:40SpeakerScott, tell him the truth. He's known me for about 25 years, so we go back quite a ways. Nice. Yeah, but we won't hold back against Scott.

1:10:53SpeakerHey, Scott, so can I ask you, what year did you first start contributing to Tom Alexander's Sense Amelia Tips? Let me think here. It was probably 83 or 84. I was still in college. My roommate, the guy that introduced me to it was the Bush doctor. He wrote a column about disease. John McPartland, right? John McPartland. I haven't been able to get a hold of John. I'm trying to get a hold of him.

1:11:26SpeakerIf anyone knows where he is, please let me know. He's been jumping all over. I will explain to you why later. I'll send you an email. Scott. All right. But anyhow, the way that it happened was he showed me the journal. He was getting the journal. He was writing for it, and he showed it to me, and I noticed there was nothing in there really about breeding or genetics, very little information.

1:11:53SpeakerAnd so I just asked Tom Alexander if I could contribute, and he said sure. So that's how it got started. Tom's a great guy. We've had him on Hash Church in the past. I started growing in 1984, and when I first got my hands on Sensimillia Tips, it was like a breath of fresh air. It was suddenly quality information about cannabis that was by growers and not by speculators, you know.

1:12:21SpeakerRight. Yeah, at the time, I was, in fact, I'm a soybean breeder. I was for 35 years, just retired. And I retired from that industry, by the way, but not completely, you know. But what got me into plant breeding was I used to grow, you know, when I was in college, I had not decided what, You know, career I wanted to get into until I was growing different strains and realized that the difference between them was genetics and that I saw a huge potential in genetics from growing that, growing tomatoes, things like that.

1:13:09SpeakerBut I always knew that there would be a huge need someday. I was just not living in a cool place, so I... I went into soybeans and did that on the side. I was doing it really small scale, but from my coursework, I was working on a PhD in genetics at the time, and I could see unique properties of cannabis and that you need... You need to use special methods that you can't use in other crops because it's a dioecious plant.

1:13:56SpeakerSo that's kind of where I saw, that's how I got started. But I've been never in a cool place to do large scale growing. So my experience with it has always been really small grows where I just learned the basics of breeding. The technical stuff was all just straight plant breeding that I was learning in college. And right now, I really want to move out of the state I'm in because it's not a cool state.

1:14:32SpeakerAnd I'm thinking of moving either to Oregon or Colorado just so that I can speak freely and not have to worry about

1:14:43Etienne FontanScott, what were the first plants that you bred, cannabis-wise?

1:14:50SpeakerI was growing back then.

1:14:56SpeakerMy first grow was, I don't even know what the variety was. It was just seeds out of a bag. But then I grew blueberry. What else was it? I grew this stuff called orange kush. And I made crosses between them and was getting ready to evaluate the F1s and I got robbed. So I had to shut down my whole operation because obviously one too many people knew about it.

1:15:33SpeakerSo I have not really, you know, I've been watching on the sidelines but, you know, I found out that People actually read my articles. I didn't even know that until recently because I was alias. Scott, the papers I sent you, did you find them interesting? Yeah. Basically, the genetics of cannabis, the traits that you guys are working on, they should be cake. Compared to what I was working on in industry, I was working on extremely complex traits like yield, drought tolerance, things like that, where there really are no major genes.

1:16:24SpeakerIt's really a whole genome interaction. But the state of affairs in cannabis, you're just in your infancy, and with just even a little bit of, you know, Professional plant breeding, you should be able to... You've got to remember something, Scott. When I first told people 25 years ago that I was going to breed single cannabinoid varieties, be they pure CBD or pure CBC or pure CBG or pure THCV or CBDV or whatever, a lot of people told me it can't be done.

1:17:06SpeakerAnd I knew it could be done because there were already industrial hemp varieties that had very little THC and there were drug varieties that had basically nothing besides large amounts of THC. And they did it all without gas chromatography, without scientific breeding, just by selection and saving the seeds of the ones they liked. Right. Yeah, that's, I mean, actually it's not a surprise to me that You know, you don't need a PhD to breed plants and even, you know, cannabis, which is a little more complex because you're in the infancy of the crop and you can make progress in leaps and bounds, you know, when you're in the infancy of any crop.

1:17:54SpeakerAnd it's as the crop becomes more and more bred and more and more like what we would call elite, you know, So once you get something that's really high yielding, gets all the characteristics you want, anytime you make a cross, you're kind of scrambling the whole genome, so it's hard to get back to that. But, you know, in cannabis right now, you're not even close to that.

1:18:20SpeakerFrom what I've seen, just from my experience and what I've been reading, It's wide open. The papers that I sent you are probably the most sophisticated breeding done with cannabis so far. Well, yeah. That one on reciprocal recurrence selection, that's just the standard way to breed a crop that does not handle inbreeding depression. That method was originally used in corn. And I'm not a corn breeder, but I had to study all that stuff in college.

1:18:56SpeakerAnd it's just a pretty straightforward method.

1:19:02SpeakerAnd, you know, I didn't think it was that technical, but like I actually... Well, I'm just saying it is the most technical cannabis breeding that everybody's doing. I'm not saying it's technical. I'm saying it's the most technical. Okay. Well, I remember that one... The one... The article I published, it was called Heritability, and so that was a different article, and I got some, you know, I had to introduce a little bit of math into that, and I remember, you know, I heard, you know, through the grapevine, people were saying, well, that's too complex, you don't need math to do breeding, you know, it's like, well, yeah, that's true, but do you want to know a little more?

1:19:45SpeakerA long time the breeders argued with me that you don't need a GC to do plant breeding. Well, if you're breeding for chemotype, you damn well do. How else do you do it? The whole thing about heritability is determining what variation is genetic and what variation is just random noise. Even if you had a completely inbred strain that was pure, you grow it out in 10 different environments, you're going to get 10 different Well, it might alter in the values, but not in the absolute compounds.

1:20:21SpeakerIt doesn't alter the cannabinoids. It does not alter the terpenes. It alters the amounts of expression. Yeah, like yield. That was my big thing in industry. I was the guy who figured out how to breed for yield using genetic markers. And up until that, You know, yield is one of those traits where it's very environmentally, very much influenced by environment. In soybeans, for example, you know, 20% is genetics and 80% is environment in terms of your final yield, you know.

1:21:02SpeakerSo I don't know how it is in cannabis because I haven't grown it enough, but it's probably very similar, you know.

1:21:15SpeakerYou're right, though, about the, like, for example, fatty acid pathways, they're very stable across environments. Like, if you have a soybean that had, you know, 80% oleic acid, it's going to have 80% oleic acid no matter what environment you grow it in, but it could yield anywhere from 10 bushels to 80 bushels, you know. So, the yield is Very important. Let me show you something, Scott. Marcus, make sure that my camera is showing what's going on.

1:21:49SpeakerAll right.

1:21:55SpeakerI don't know if you can see those. Little seeds? Yeah. Scott, those are 800. Put your hand behind it. Okay.

1:22:07BubblemanDon't go too close. That's fine. That's close enough. You go too close, it gets blurry.

1:22:14SpeakerThose are 800 plus to one gram. These ones are 12. Coconuts.

1:22:27SpeakerBut you want to talk about, yeah, cannabis genomics, it's like the dog, you know, it's just everywhere. I'm not sure what you're showing there. I can't really see anything. Okay. What they were was cannabis seeds that were 12 to the gram and cannabis seeds that were plus 800 to the gram. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We saw the same thing in soybean. Wild soybeans are about as big as a BB, and the ones that are used commercially, they're about...

1:23:04SpeakerYou know how big they are, like a regular bean. The 800 ones are from plus 9,000 feet in the Himalayas. Oh, yeah. So that was environment? No, no, no. These seeds I grew in Santa Cruz, California. But the original seeds I grew them from, they grew the exact same size at sea level as they did up in the mountains. Okay, all right, yeah.

1:23:33SpeakerYeah, when I say the trait yield, I am specifically talking about productivity per unit area, you know. And so just so that people know, if you grow a plant all by itself, you can get incredible yields if you give it unlimited, you know, light and stuff. So it's all relevant to the context you're talking about, you know.

1:23:58Etienne FontanScott, if you were left on an island with only one genetic, what would it be?

1:24:02SpeakerMy favorite, so I'm not, you know, I'm not, I haven't sampled as many as you guys, but my favorite one was Orange Kush, and I don't even know where it came from. It's just some guy gave it to me, and it was called Orange Kush. So I grew, I did one grow of it, and it wasn't, at the same time I grew some blueberry, and the blueberry knocked me off my ass.

1:24:29SpeakerI mean, it was obviously the stronger one, But the Orange Kush just gave me the best buzz I've ever had. It was very, I was laughing all the time. Everything was funny. Everybody I smoked it with just loved it. And when I had to shut my operation down very quickly, I lost it completely. I don't even know if I could, If it's out there and even if it was, is it the same?

1:25:03SpeakerOh yeah, yeah. But is it the same?

1:25:06Etienne FontanRight, somebody is in chat saying that they have a cut of the orange cut.

1:25:10SpeakerWhat year was this, Scott? Oh God, that was, that was, when I grew that, let me think. That was probably around 85. Okay, yeah, because people still have clones from 85. That's possible. Hardly any, though. It was really funny how I got it. Like this guy that lives at a local university that's kind of a hip town and is a lot more liberal than the rest of Iowa at the time.

1:25:48SpeakerNo, no, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That was not 85. That was after I moved to Iowa. That was like in 2001 when I grew that. I'm sorry. But anyhow, University of Iowa was a really cool place. Like as soon as I moved here in 2000, they had a medical conference there in 2000. That blew my mind. I thought, wow, Iowa is going to be a really progressive state.

1:26:20SpeakerAnd A couple years later, we got a Republican governor and just killed the whole vibe. I mean, people started getting busted for like minor possession charges and it just kind of ruined the whole progress, you know, towards that. I mean, but this conference in 2000 was amazing. The student center at the college, Basically turned into a big smoke fest. I mean, and the deans and the professors and everybody was doing it right together, you know.

1:27:03SpeakerIt was amazing.

1:27:04Etienne FontanThat had to be very empowering.

1:27:07SpeakerYeah, I mean, I remember, so basically, I remember actually sharing a tube with, you know, the dean of nursing. I couldn't believe I was in Iowa.

1:27:25Etienne FontanNice. That's pretty amazing.

1:27:28BubblemanThere are those random experiences that come up that allow us to find ourselves smoking with someone that we may never have considered to be smoking with.

1:27:38SpeakerYeah. Yeah. And there were really good talks. I mean, the convention part of it was really a good scientific convention. I think there were people from GEW Pharmaceuticals, John McFarland. Who sponsored it? Was it Patients Out of Time? It was the, I don't know who sponsored it, but it was held by the nursing department at the University of Iowa. And you know that woman that is blind, I think, and she was an advocate.

1:28:16Etienne FontanElvie Muzica? What was her name? LV Muzica.

1:28:21SpeakerYeah. She was there. She gave a talk. She was, you know, with everybody. I suspect it's patients out of time. Mary Lynn Mathurin. But I don't know that for a fact. Yeah. She was the first one that made me realize that, you know, the war on cannabis was a war on people. You know, it's totally counterproductive, you know.

1:28:48SpeakerAnd, Etienne, have you been to the Patients Out of Time conferences?

1:28:53Etienne FontanNo, I have not, but Todd and I met under Mary Lynn Mathery's roof in Richmond, Virginia, originally. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:29:22Etienne FontanAnd respect her greatly for it. She had a condition. She was a regular nurse and she has a nerve condition where she could no longer hold things in her hands. They would just fall out. And she realized medical cannabis helped her and she has become a tireless activist and her husband both. And like I said, she hosted Todd Nye's initial meeting back in 94. So she's an amazing spirit and I have a great deal of respect.

1:29:49SpeakerYou too.

1:29:52Etienne FontanAnd Elvie. It was all three of us. Elvie was touring with us, Scott. So it was me, Elvie, Todd, Richard. Yeah, it was quite an amazing time.

1:30:04SpeakerWe sponsored her Patients at a Time a couple years ago in Portland, and I know her and her husband. They are tireless. They work all the time as well. Her husband's name is Albrine. Yeah, they also was, she was also the first to teach, to actually have the credited endocannabinoid course in California. Now there's like four other universities that have it, but she's the one that put that curriculum together as well.

1:30:33Etienne FontanAnd as a vet, Al has been a vet advocate since he's a Vietnam vet, and he helped me with being a Gulf War vet because it was a large span in between. You know, the vets, and they were happy to have, and he was a guide for me as a vet because he was showing how it can be done, how to take on these systems that I was really too afraid of when I was initially kicked out of the, you know, military for it, and I credit him greatly because, and what an amazing husband and wife team because they have continued to, you know, we should get them on here sometime.

1:31:07Etienne FontanThey're amazing people.

1:31:08BubblemanI was about to say that. I can do that. These are future Hash Church, uh, Panelists. I think they would both do it to be really honest. Why not? Sounds like it's right up their alley.

1:31:21Etienne FontanSo Scott, all right, now we've put away the orange kush. What recent cultivars would you, do you enjoy growing or have you?

1:31:30SpeakerI'm not growing now because it's really risky where I'm at here. It's just I had to shut down completely way back in like 2001, 2002.

1:31:44SpeakerI was taking a big risk then, you know, because back then, if you got caught growing it, they could actually seize your house, you know. And so, you know, really, I'm not, the strains that I get are stuff that I buy. Come on, Scott. Let's be honest. Orange Kush is worth your house. Ha! Ha ha! Yeah, I don't even know what the laws are now. Like, I don't know if it's the same now.

1:32:16SpeakerI don't know if it's relaxed, but I know one thing. What about moving? Well, that's one of the things I'm kind of asking people about. What is the best place? Mark and several other people told me that Oregon is probably the best place right now if you want to. Do breeding because, for example, California and Colorado, you're limited on how many plants you grow. And I'd want to be able to grow at least 100 plants in order to have enough variation to do anything with, you know.

1:32:54SpeakerSo maybe Oregon. We're going out, me and my fiance are going out there in the first couple weeks of September. We're going to be going the whole way from, Santa Barbara, the whole way up to, I guess, through Oregon, just looking at places. Like, on our list are Ashland, Bend, maybe Portland. I don't really like big cities. Ashland's amazing, man. That's a very beautiful place. Yeah, I've been here already for a week.

1:33:30SpeakerI actually worked on a vineyard for a couple days, you know. And they had perfect weather climate for growing and they had irrigation channels running through the mountains, you know. I don't know where they get their water there, but it was really good water, unlimited. And then, of course, the trout streams were awesome there. We went fishing there while we were there.

1:34:04SpeakerSo you think that's a good place, Ashland? I do. I do. The water's coming from the mountains there. I mean, it's just, it's beautiful.

1:34:16SpeakerI live in Oakland, but I think if you were wanting to do what you wanted to do legally, Oregon is a good spot, and that area is a very good spot, too. And if you're happy just growing six plants after November, you might be happy in California. I know I can grow three kilos minimum from each of six plants. Yeah, I just like to look at genetic variation.

1:34:44SpeakerI like lots of plants to look at and pick the best one. So yeah, I'm Can I ask you something? As a soybean breeder, did they ever limit the amount of plants you could grow? No. Did they ever come in and count your soybeans? No. No, they counted them because they wanted to make sure that he was breeding the one with the most soybeans. Let's give you an idea of the numbers in soybean breeding.

1:35:20SpeakerWe used to go through, let me think, 20,000 entries in order to come up with one new variety. So that's, you know, in the world where you don't have to worry about people looking over your shoulder. It's unlimited. As a department, so I worked in a department that had 10 soybean breeders and

1:35:50SpeakerCollectively, guys. By 20,000, do you mean 20,000 individual plants or 20,000 lines? 20,000 lines. Jesus Christ. To come up with one product. And in your breeding program in any one year, you might have 50,000 lines total. So, you know, the average breeder at the end of five, six years, He was cranking out one or two new varieties every year. But it takes about five or six years even with all the accelerated technology that seed companies use.

1:36:28SpeakerIt still took a minimum of five or six years to get something from the cross to the selfing to the bulking up to the market. And that's considered fast. Six years. Wow. But there's a lot more quality control, you know. You can't get away with heterogeneity and things like that. Your strains have to be pure enough that people can't see any differences among the plants, you know.

1:37:02SpeakerNo, no, I understand. But the main difference is you can't smoke soy. Yeah, believe me. You can if you could. You're going to get sick, I bet. I wouldn't advise it. Yeah, in fact, when I was getting ready to retire, they were like, well, what are you going to do now? And I said, I'm going to cure cancer. And they thought I was kidding. I didn't tell them why I said that.

1:37:35SpeakerI just said, I'm going to cure cancer. It was supposed to be like a joke. Well, they know you're going to start working with me. That's why. Yeah.

1:37:47SpeakerMe and Scott had a former past together. Let's just say that. A victim from a former life? Yeah, kind of like a Fish 1.0 tour or something.

1:38:03SpeakerWe were scientists at the same company. We did a little science, but we mostly did smoking and picking guitars. Yeah, exactly, exactly. The most creative things we can do together. Plus, you know, like, Mark's a chemist. I'm a whole plant geneticist. So he's more of a reductionist, whereas I'm on the other end of the spectrum, you know, whole plant. And you know what? What's that? I said, I agree with you.

1:38:35SpeakerThat's the way I am, too. Yeah, that's a big deal in plant breeding. There's some people that don't even know what reductionism means. Because that's all they do. The first time I heard the term reductionist, I had to look it up in the dictionary.

1:39:02BubblemanBut at least you figured it out fast.

1:39:04SpeakerThe one thing I'm starting to realize right now is I prefer herb to a vaporizer. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:39:41SpeakerBut when you combust really good hash, even with a match, the first three quarters of it is actually vaporized because the hash is so good. It just bubbles and bubbles and bubbles. And when it stops bubbling, it'll finally combust. But that's less than 25%. Yeah, yeah. I remember when I got my Volcano. It was like 10 years ago. I thought that was the coolest thing since sliced bread.

1:40:07SpeakerI just... I still have it, by the way. That thing's amazing. I used it for a lot of scientific studies where we could control temperature and control the weight of what's vaporized, et cetera, et cetera. I found it very handy. I just went and bought a new one because my old one broke after 10 years, so I love the Volcano. I still haven't found anything that beats it, and I've tried every vaporizer out there.

1:40:34SpeakerI had a vaporizer that was more efficient. I have a patent for it. But I never sold it. And at a lower temperature, it has more complete vaporization and leaves less of the cannabinoids behind at a lower temperature.

1:40:52BubblemanI got to say, the Vapex Hail to me is a better unit than the Volcano, and I met Volcano when they were brand new in like, it might have been the late 90s or super early 2000s.

1:41:03SpeakerI'm not saying mine is better. I'm saying it's more efficient. That's all.

1:41:07BubblemanYeah. No, I never said you said it was better. I was just going to show the Vapex Hail, which is, it's my vape of choice these days with the bomb that fits right on top. What's it called? It's called the Vape Exhale. Okay.

1:41:24SpeakerThat looks kind of like the Solo, Ariser Solo.

1:41:28BubblemanYeah, it looks a little bit. The difference is really that it fits these quartz rods that slide down into the center. Here, let me show you one real quick. It fits these little guys.

1:41:43SpeakerI've hit on the Pipe Bar Kaz, and I'm telling you, it's smooth. Yeah, well, what we found was... And you can load flowers in there, too. I tried the flowers, and I was actually brought back to vaporizing flowers again. I was very impressed with the little... Well, not only that, Tony, but you stuck pipe cleaners in it, remember?

1:42:08SpeakerQ-tips. That's what it was, plastic Q-tips, right. Yeah, on the very bottom where the air intake was because it kept whistling. The first model was whistling so much that you and I got paranoid.

1:42:21BubblemanWe tried to stop the whistling and we stuffed stuff at the bottom like a... And so when I rolled up to hit it for the first time, they're like, oh, we ruined it. You can't hit it. You know, waiting to hit it for like a week. Like, you told me all about this thing. Like, we're in Barcelona, man. We're at the apartment.

1:42:41SpeakerWe cleaned it, Marcus. Well, I kept doing like the...

1:42:48SpeakerEvery time we smoked, you could hear it loud. It was like, everywhere we went.

1:42:55BubblemanIt comes through the bottom there. It whistles because the thing is just a straight tube all the way down, and then there's a heater around the outside that heats the air, that heats this glass, and then the air between the glass and the quartz heats the quartz. It is definitely a lovely way to heat up material in the hail. For me, it's the nicest one for pure terps.

1:43:17BubblemanI don't really want to hit pure terps off anything, but the Vapor Pit 300. Whistle? Sorry? Is yours whistle? Yes and no. Sometimes I can get it to whistle. It's not whistling now.

1:43:37BubblemanI've heard it whistle, although I have two of them, so it might be my other one might be the whistler. The Whistler.

1:43:44SpeakerGreat. It was loud. It would always whistle. So loud that we were on the third story vaping out the window and we were paranoid that people on the street could hear it going.

1:44:01BubblemanAnd what people don't realize between yourself, myself, and Sam, someone is always smoking. There's always someone taking a hit in that apartment. It was never like there was a point where we were like, oh, nobody's smoking hash right now.

1:44:20SpeakerNo, you guys smoked so much that I always passed out before both of you. And then somehow I'd wake up at 6 and I'm not really sure Sam ever went to bed. He just kept smoking. That's why I was smoking so much more because I was trying to make sure I smoked your share because I wanted to keep up. In spirit, you were still smoking, dude. Yeah, yeah.

1:44:45SpeakerWell, I appreciate it because I know I went to bed and then I'd wake up and I'd go to the bathroom and I'd come out of my room and on my way to the bathroom you were talking to me like a schoolgirl about something and it was like, I was like, have you been up the whole time smoking? No, no, no, no. I was like, yeah, you have.

1:45:03SpeakerYou've just been smoking the whole time.

1:45:06Ryan Dank AfAh, fuck.

1:45:07BubblemanGood times, good times. I'm going to try not to get sick this year.

1:45:12SpeakerYeah, you were... You and Sam's wife were just, like she was real sick and then you just got, you just veered off into a dark, dark place. Holy crap. I've never seen you like in that mood or that sick ever before. It was like somebody that was walking around with like, you were almost like vomiting and shitting your pants at the same time but not telling anyone.

1:45:38SpeakerAnd you were like, oh yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. Let's do Hash Church. And when my wife got back to Amsterdam, she had pneumonia.

1:45:49BubblemanJeez. That's scary for sure.

1:45:54Etienne FontanHey, Scott, I have a question. How many articles did you write for Sensimia Tips?

1:46:00SpeakerI think I only actually wrote three or four. I remember, the three I remember was... Basically just considerations for plant breeding, just general what is plant breeding, how do you set your goals, things like that. And then the second one was about heritability, which is about determining genetic variation versus just noise. And then the third one was reciprocal recurrence selection, which I think is the one that probably got the most attention.

1:46:38SpeakerIn hindsight, you know, I didn't even know, I had no idea until like about two or three weeks ago that people actually read that and got something out of it because I was, you know, I was outside of the community and stuff.

1:46:54BubblemanHey, are you able to discuss the difference between individuals and lines when you mentioned 20,000 to produce one product for the soybeans?

1:47:04SpeakerYeah, so basically in a plant breeding program, you start with the resources. So if you have the resources to grow 50,000 plots, okay, which is kind of like a pretty average size for a commercial breeder. So a plot would be a single row, five feet long, and it would be comprised of, At the generation where you're doing the first evaluation, you're probably F3 or F4 derived. So basically, you make crosses between two parents.

1:47:40SpeakerSo you take, say, the best shit you have, but they complement each other. Like one might have better disease, one might have better yield. You cross them, and you're trying to get one that's resistant to disease plus has high yield. How many plants in each line? You say 20,000 a month. The first evaluation is only a single row that's about five feet long, so that would be about 30 plants in a row.

1:48:11SpeakerOkay. Yeah, but one big difference that people need to understand is that soybeans are perfect flowers, so they have much less variation than cannabis. Yeah, so they're naturally self-pollinating. They've evolved to tolerate inbreeding really well, and the way they do that is back in evolution, they duplicated their genome twice. And then they rearranged all the chromosomes. So basically what that does is you now have four copies of every gene, and you can have big A, big A in one chromosome and little a, little a on another.

1:48:57SpeakerSo it's still pure breeding, but yet you now have two versions or four versions of every gene. So it's kind of like an internal hybrid. That's... Not because it's polyploid? It's polyploid. So polyploidy is, the reason it works well in plants is it allows the plant to carry more variation within the plant as opposed to within the population, you know? Whereas cannabis, it did not evolve as an inbreeder, so it never really, it never went through that polyploidy stage because it didn't need to, I guess.

1:49:39SpeakerAnd, um, You know, so cannabis is a lot simpler genetically actually than the polypoids because you don't have multiple versions of every gene to deal with. So that, like, for example, I did a lot of mutation breeding where I'm trying to knock a gene out. Well, in soybean, sometimes you have to, you can't just knock one gene out to get rid of a trait. You have to knock it out on four different chromosomes.

1:50:10SpeakerAnd that becomes really hard to do. So when you're doing DNA analysis, polyploids are much more complicated because of all the multiple sets of genes. Yeah, they call it genome duplication. It's not, it diploidized. So genetically it acts like a diploid. You know, you have big A, little a at every locus. Well, but that's if you've got tetraploids. If you make triploids or other kinds of ploidies, it's all different.

1:50:47SpeakerWell, yeah. Triploids are usually used as sterile. Yeah, but with cannabis, that's not true. I've done it. Triploids aren't sterile? No, they're not sterile, either the males or the females. Period. Period. Yeah, I don't know how that works in cannabis. But like, for example, seedless watermelons, what they do is they cross a diploid to a tetraploid. And that makes triploids, but they still make little white nubs.

1:51:20SpeakerIt's not seedless. Yeah, but the seeds are sterile. They never really develop because during meiosis, you get uneven... Distribution of the chromosomes. Well, I guarantee you that triploid cannabis makes fertile seeds. I've done it. Okay. But you know, a lot of your seedless crops, that's what they are. That's how they do it. And it's good for the seed company because nobody actually gets their shit. They maintain the parents and then they sell the triploid.

1:51:57SpeakerSo I'll have to read up on that. That's what the seed companies are doing today with auto varieties. You can't maintain an auto variety as a clone, so what you have to do is you have to buy the seeds every year.

1:52:16SpeakerI have a question for the forum here. This came up with Mark. I was interested in these e-liquids, the polyethylene glycol, which It looks like it's used very widely in e-cigarettes, but Mark's telling me that he doesn't think it's safe. Do you guys know much more about that? It's just a hypothesis. I can't say the safety yes or no, but I won't use it.

1:52:50Etienne FontanYou won't use it? There are studies showing its efficacy and its use and its fineness. I myself Don't like it, the sensation when I ingest it. I can feel it in my lungs, so I don't use it myself. It's just become one of those things. I don't use e-cigarettes for the most part because the batteries and everything kept dying, so I've just gone back to manual rigs because I'm tired of everything.

1:53:18Etienne FontanBreaking down on me all the time, so I have to go with something that's reliable. I mean, I know they're getting better with it, et cetera, et cetera, but I have found even most things are being done with the CO2 oil, and I don't like the flavor and the taste or the effect of the CO2 oil myself. Many other people do, but that's on choice alone. So, yeah, they add the PEG to stretch it, and what they're doing is to peg 400, I think it is.

1:53:48Etienne FontanWhich has shown efficacy in animals as well as in humans. But again, I go with my own sensation.

1:53:57SpeakerHave you tried the rosin mixed with terpenes? Tony showed me some before. I thought it was super.

1:54:07Etienne FontanTotally liquidy. Yes, yeah, yeah. He gave me some red congolese and some other stuff the other day at Chalice.

1:54:14SpeakerThat's terpenes mixed with rosin?

1:54:18Etienne FontanYeah. And Terps mixed with Bubble. And Bubble, right. I've got various, various things. He gave me the whole gambit. I, He was sitting there and he was just dabbing people out hardcore. And I was just like, dude, you hungry? He's like, yeah, dude, I'm starving. I was like, what do you want? He's like, just get me a steak burrito. So I went and got him a burrito and a lemonade because I know what it's like to sit there and you're in the whole dab mode.

1:54:43Etienne FontanAnd then he just was like, here, boom, boom, boom, boom, and just took me up with a lot of love. So I'm actually dabbing that stuff right now. It's this, like, Red Congolese... Here's a flower terp rosin right here. Dog Walker. That was one of the first things I did this morning. And it's very... As you can see by its consistency.

1:55:07SpeakerThe stuff I have is a little bit liquidier.

1:55:12Etienne FontanIt was, it was. I've whittled this down. It's literally down to the bottom of it. So, yeah, it's very interesting, and the sensations are different. They're not necessarily long-lasting, but I can definitely tell the difference in the sensation on onset. Wait.

1:55:35BubblemanSo, Bubble Man. Yes.

1:55:37SpeakerYou're up in Canada?

1:55:39BubblemanI am. I'm up in Vancouver. I was going to say you should just keep driving when you make your way up to Oregon. It's not that much further to pass through Seattle and drive up into Vancouver, go check out Whistler.

1:55:50SpeakerYeah, well, we kind of have a, we're trying to decide whether to drive out from Iowa or fly because if we fly, then we're going to have like a schedule, you know. But, We might just drive, you know, hit Denver, hit, we don't know yet, but I have to go out there. My mentor is in Santa Barbara, he's turning 70.

1:56:14BubblemanNice.

1:56:15SpeakerOn August 30th, he grows right in his backyard, you know. That's what amazes me about California. First time I went to visit him in Santa Barbara, you know, he just has plants growing in his backyard, neighbors don't care, you know. Is this Jim? Scott, is this Jim? Jim, yeah. Yeah, okay, cool. He's like a seven-year-old man now. It's just like, oh my God, this is a completely different universe than what I'm used to.

1:56:46SpeakerNobody gives a shit. I asked him about the cops. He's like, oh, the cops don't bother you. They don't care about that.

1:56:58SpeakerWhat year was that? The first time I went ... What's your name? Todd. Todd. Scott Todd. I've seen you. I've seen you on videos. You've seen my movies, I'm sure. The Union, The Culture High. Yeah, yeah. I've seen you give a Lifetime Achievement Award to that one dude. Ben Dronkers, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that one dude.

1:57:26Etienne FontanYeah, Ben's just some dude.

1:57:27SpeakerWhere do you live? I live also in the East Bay. Northern California. I moved to California back in 92 and it forever changed my life. I met Jack Herod in 94 and helped him with The Emperor Wears No Clothes and pretty much devoted my life to the dissemination of cannabis information. Cool. Cool, wow. In a short summary. It's an honor to be in this forum. Thank you for inviting me in.

1:58:02Etienne FontanHey, it's an honor to have you. You know, you're one of those that we used to, I mean, honestly, myself, I mean, we used to, I used to search and find and hoard those Cincinnati tips whenever you got them because it was only by word of mouth, you know, once the subscription stopped. Thank you for joining us.

1:58:37Etienne FontanGoing to most big cities, those people had those, if they had access or I would always make sure and I always kept a little actual, kept a little thing with numbers so I knew which ones I had so that I could get the ones that I didn't have. Because that's how, I mean it was, it had its own cult following.

1:58:57SpeakerYeah, I was a devotee for sure. I didn't... When I first got my hands on A Sense of Million Tips, I was in shock because it was the first time I saw a magazine kind of devoted to the intellectual side of the growing culture, and I didn't know it existed. I mean, nothing, you know, not trying to always knock on high times, but if you actually grew pot, the Ask Ed...

1:59:18SpeakerColumns was stupid most of the time. It was comical at best. It wasn't very good information and to get my hands on actual information from actual growers and guys like you was like a godsend.

1:59:31Etienne FontanBecause you're also talking about regions that we were in and so growing in those regions so it was applicable. It was key, you know, information that we had no other access otherwise because there was, again, no internet, no access to this In books, except for those few grow books that were out there, and even those were missing the information, which is why there was a need for Sensimia Tips to fill in those many, many nooks and crannies of growing cannabis.

2:00:04SpeakerIt's one of the favorite things in my Facebook news feed now, because Tom is posting 50 links a day. He's constantly all over the... You know, media on several issues and making sure that everybody is well informed. I fear that he spends too much time in front of his computer. Well, I get a lot of my news from him now, so it's great to reconnect with him.

2:00:30SpeakerWhat I like best is his commentary. Tom has such a great mind and I agree with him 99.9% of the time on everything I see him post. I actually don't think I've ever disagreed with any of his sentiments. He's such a gem to me. Guys like him, Sam, others, Ed Holloway, you guys really... Mel Frank, I love it, and I got to spend the weekend with him.

2:00:54SpeakerHe got the Lifetime Achievement Award at Chalice this year, and it was fantastic. He's 72 years old now, and he is just an absolute diamond in this community to me.

2:01:07Etienne FontanIt was a pleasure beyond measure to spend time with him. We ended up with a house, as you saw last week. We just popped on for a blip because it was hard to not be social with the guy. We'd get so little time with him, so... Thank you for indulging us. But it was, needless to say, amazing that he got that Lifetime Achievement Award and he's very humble in accepting it and just, again, nicest guy, much less great grower.

2:01:41SpeakerOh, and for so many of us, that was the Abbey Road. That was the Bible. That was the conduit. That was the conduit for me. I mean, that was my book, Mel Frank's book. I didn't need any other book, really.

2:01:59SpeakerMarijuana botany. I need marijuana botany. I'm sorry. I can't exclude Rob. Yeah, I guess I'm saying Todd as a young cultivator. As a young cultivator, yes. I found Mel before I found Rob. Oh, me too. I wasn't handed Rob Clark's book until, honestly, the summer of 94. Richard Davis handed it to me, and I read it twice while sitting on a rock and under the moonlight doing, you know, third shift duty, watching the greenhouse do nothing.

2:02:29SpeakerYeah, that's it. That book, wow, that was my first real introduction into quality breeding information. It came out in 1981, Todd. I know. I just didn't see it until later. I mean, you know, sorry. I was stoned.

2:02:46Etienne FontanWe sold it all over the country, and that book was one of the first ones to always sell out whenever we had it in stock because, yeah, it was just one of those wherever you went, people saw it, were like, zoink, turn around, see what it was, reach into their pocket and hand it to you and walk away happy as a shit-covered fly.

2:03:05SpeakerI actually had seen it. I just hadn't had the time to sit down and read it cover to cover. And it was Richard Davis' instigation that I did it under. And Todd, do you have a copy of the Botany and Ecology of Cannabis, his school thesis? I fucking signed, bro. Of course I do. Okay, well I assumed you did. Double checking. I have everything from Rob now.

2:03:30SpeakerNow I'm his biggest fanboy in a crazy way. Him and Mel Frank. It just blows my mind. These guys were just these fictional people writing books that shaped my future and now they're my actual real life friends and I find it so crazy how your dreams can come true if you pursue them. Well, Mel Frank was always a very, very well versed cannabis guy. Unlike his other half.

2:04:01Etienne FontanAnd he still is. He's very eloquent as well as very well spoken from his acceptance speech. You know, just hanging out with him because it was me, Kenny, Todd, and, you know, we're talking, what are we talking? We're talking advanced cannabis discussions. We're talking philosophical discussions regarding cannabis, you know. We're talking, you know, the dreamscape of the genes, all these different things that, you know, as well as just talking life, you know.

2:04:27Etienne FontanIt's amazing. It's a lot of fun.

2:04:30SpeakerCurious, does both Kenny and Mel support Proposition 64? Oh yeah, absolutely. This is what we were walking around waiting to see someone give me shit because Mel Frank even said it from the stage, you know, look where we are now and think where we will be once we take Prohibition down. Yeah, we all believe that this is just, you know, none of us are going to stop doing what we're doing and fighting for equality.

2:04:57SpeakerWe just, we want to win every election, every battle. It isn't about losing. It isn't about siding ourselves with the fucking prosecutors and the cops and all the other freaking private prison industries and assholes that want to keep cannabis illegal because that's what these people are doing now. They're coming out against cannabis. Legalizing cannabis and putting themselves in the same place of the people who have for decades oppressed them and profited off of keeping cannabis illegal.

2:05:26Etienne FontanYeah, it was part of Mel's speech from his acceptance was telling people to vote yes on 64.

2:05:33SpeakerWell, I'm not surprised. I've known him a really long time, and I'm not surprised Kenny supports it either, but it does make me happy to hear this.

2:05:44Etienne FontanWell, you know, an interesting thing. Earlier on the chat, I sent it to Todd. A mother, Lisa Pag, posted that AMA has a benefit that many are not talking about. As a mother, it will end the constant threat of keeping my children away from me for using cannabis. If that doesn't spark you as a mother... I mean, that's a realization.

2:06:12SpeakerLet Child Protective Services just sink in for a minute on anybody that's not worried about keeping cannabis artificially expensive because really this is the conversation we're having about keeping families together, keeping the cops out of our house. Having somewhat, some rights until we can finally get equal rights. And we're online with the soybean guy and we're in a situation like Scott is where no one counts our soybeans.

2:06:37SpeakerNobody comes and looks through our greenhouses because they're not worried about the plant that we're putting together. It's really got to get to that place. I agree, Todd. Even if we could take small steps in the right direction, that's better than where we are now.

2:06:52Etienne FontanWell, we got screwed over over a long period of time. We're not going to unscrew ourselves with one action. So this is a step in the right direction. As we said, it's not perfect, yet we can't continue at the same level that we're going at. And we cannot afford a second loss. It will only empower prosecutors and further prohibitionism and will set us back at least 10 years.

2:07:17Etienne FontanSo even though it's not perfect, it's not It's a direction that we can see, that we can work with, and that will have and affect immediate change. Because where there is currently prohibitions in counties and in cities, you as an individual can grow six plants. And as you said, if you can grow three kilos, which I would assume in California there, Sam, per plant, by vegging wonderfully inside and then taking it outside or into greenhouses...

2:07:50Etienne FontanYou would have a very successful year no matter who you are. And if everybody is growing six plants all over the state, what are they going to do? It's over. It's over.

2:08:04Etienne FontanSo people say this is 60% legalization. When everybody is growing and using it for themselves and as an adult, then who's winning and who's losing?

2:08:14SpeakerThat's an improvement because Right now, for recreational use, it's zero legal.

2:08:24SpeakerYou know, everybody doesn't seem to talk about the fact that all 215 is is in an affirmative defense to breaking the law. It is not anything. It's not quasi-legalization. It's not legalization. It means when they come harass you like they've done to me time and time again and say, why are you growing that? Why are you smoking that? You get to bring up the fact that you were sick.

2:08:45SpeakerThat's all 215 ever has been. That's it. And it bothers me that people think that it's somewhat legalization in this state because it isn't legalization to those of us who have been prosecuted. I've been prosecuted four times for doing nothing more than growing cannabis since we passed 215. Yeah, but you'll have to admit, Todd, now it's really a lot different than it was a year before 215.

2:09:13SpeakerBecause more and more people are breaking the law. Most cops do not want to... Thank you for watching.

2:09:45SpeakerAnd this is the truth of it. They're not in a hurry to put us in front of a jury anymore because that jury pool is a bunch of voters who have already voted to basically legalize what we're doing.

2:09:58Etienne FontanSo look what we just saw in Chalice. We just saw, we saw sheriffs. From Santa Barbara County, a very conservative county, and Victorville, a very conservative... It's not Santa Barbara, it's San Bernardino. San Bernardino, pardon me, pardon me, pardon me. County, and Victorville, a very conservative city, which actually has a prison. A prison that Todd unfortunately knows all too well. And yet, there we were, hanging out with these police...

2:10:28Etienne FontanAnd they're being as cool through the entire event. I mean, there's pictures of them glass blowing. There's pictures of people smoking, taking pictures with them. They were being cool the entire time. They had a realization early on this year when they had somebody shooting up their police department. And then they've had to deal with Homeland Security and all these FBI and everybody crawling all over them. Let me tell you, those police officers were happy as hell to be hanging out with just a bunch of stoners because there was fear even by the Victorville City Council since there was Wu-Tang Clan and this guy named Machine Gun Kelly.

2:11:06Etienne FontanAnd there wasn't an incident. There wasn't an arrest. The police even said themselves they had a good time. So it shows once you change the mentality and once you actually put it out there and the police actually change their perspective, we saw nothing but harmony.

2:11:25SpeakerAll the police will tell you that they'd rather police a cannabis event than an alcohol event. I mean... Can I say that that's what it felt like, Sam? It felt like a big, like if you would go to an Oktoberfest or a beer fest where everybody's drinking beers and just hanging out and listening to music. It really feels like that, and they're allowing this kind of cultural experiment to happen in, ironically, one of the most conservative counties in California.

2:11:54SpeakerI hope that we were vastly different from the alcohol crowds that go there and create havoc and get locked up and have fights.

2:12:19SpeakerI hope we were the opposite of that on every measure. All the police I saw at the event were cheery. They were interacting very nicely. The vendors were telling me that they were sincerely inquiring about their products. One guy who thought he was going to get shook down for having edibles realized that the cop, when he asked him were they medicated, he said yes. The cop said, are you going to give him away his samples?

2:12:44SpeakerHe said yes. Thank you for watching.

2:13:08SpeakerOne in two people would be getting affected by cancer and in a weird way after having it, I felt like that's a good thing because if everybody gets affected with compassion and empathy, this world will be a better place. And the real truth of it is, Todd, is we have to reach these kind of people. We have to reach the unconverted. The converted, hey, they're already on our side.

2:13:33SpeakerWe may all have disagreements with each other, but it's the unconverted we need to convert.

2:13:39Etienne FontanAnd hey, due to the fear mongering, I must say I was concerned that we were going to see the opposite of what we saw. So it was needless to say I was pleasantly surprised, but also it did not escape me the educational opportunity that was transpiring because They were generously curious to see all these vendors, all these people showing up, wandering around, you know, thousands upon thousands of dollars for these glass pipes.

2:14:05Etienne FontanThese cups, like I said, there's pictures of a cup actually glass blowing because, trust me, they make a salary. When they see these kids who are making thousands of dollars on these little glass objects, I mean, you can't tell me they don't go, hmm, hmm.

2:14:23BubblemanPretty incredible for sure. Hey, welcome, Chimera, to the room.

2:14:31Etienne FontanThere he is. Hi, Chimera. He's muted. Uh-oh, can't hear you. Try again. Can't hear you. Nope. Can't hear you, Chimera. You've got to shut your browser off and try again. Restart. Much love. See you soon.

2:14:51BubblemanMuch love. See you soon. He'll be back.

2:14:56Etienne FontanHe'll come back and we'll hear him. So Scott, are there any recent genetics you've heard about that you would like to grow?

2:15:06SpeakerI guess I've never really tried sour diesel. That's probably amazing to you guys, but I don't think I've ever run into that. So maybe that. Okay. I really would like to get a hold of that orange kush again, but the problem is, is it the same thing? Technically, I don't think it was orange kush. I think you were growing Calio, California orange, because kush kind of came later.

2:15:37SpeakerIt's not really a combination. They're not alike. What is it about that kush that

2:16:10SpeakerI don't know what chemically was different about it. If you're talking, honestly, if you were growing in the 80s, you weren't talking about Kush. Hindu Kush was not the conversation. I was just saying, that was in the 2000s. Right, so Kush, that would make sense. In the 70s, what were you growing? What were you experimenting with? I was just growing the seeds in bags I was buying.

2:16:37SpeakerI didn't have access to a network. No lineage known, right? I started out growing it in my parents' backyard. Then I was out in the woods. It was not easy to do it. Half the time my plants would get stolen.

2:17:06Etienne FontanThat's frustrating.

2:17:07SpeakerCan you hear us?

2:17:08Ryan Dank AfYeah, it's hard to run a breeding program when people are taking your plants, huh?

2:17:12SpeakerWell, you know, the way that I got robbed was, I'm a musician, and we used to have band practice at my house every week, and, you know, the drummer brought this guy that wasn't cool, I guess, and he came back and robbed me that week. And the worst part is he was in training to be a cop. He got his though. He eventually became a cop and he was a crooked cop and he ended up getting totally fucked.

2:17:49Ryan Dank AfSo, Scott, tell us about what, as like a professional plant breeder and I guess maybe a little bit of an outsider in the industry, how do you think we're doing as far as plant breeding?

2:17:58SpeakerWell, I think you're doing the right thing. I mean... You don't need to be a professional plant breeder in order to make tremendous progress with a species like cannabis because it's just a matter of finding the plant you like and then cloning it, you know? And the potency has gotten so high that it's no longer about potency, it's about the quality of the high, you know? So I think, you know,

2:18:30SpeakerMy point is you don't need to be a professional. You just got to know the plant. But if we get total legalization without restrictions where a breeder can grow as many plants as he wants, man, there's so many things you could do. Because plant breeding is a numbers game. And if you're restricted in numbers, you're restricted, you know.

2:19:00SpeakerHonestly, when you say it like that, cannabis has seen very restrictive breeding because we have only seen really people like Sam. It is one out of millions who have had the opportunity to do what he's done in a legal environment and pursued a legal business plan that he was allowed to pursue in a legal environment in greenhouses. Most of us have worked in the dozens where we'd rather work in the tens of thousands, and we haven't had that option.

2:19:27SpeakerI mean, I went and did five years in prison because I had under 5,000 plants growing in my house. And people can say what they want, but it was just an extravagant hobby. I mean, it was all in a house. I mean, it's not like I had miles of greenhouses in the backyard. It was literally a house. And I had a lot of plants, but at the time, eh.

2:19:48SpeakerI had a lot of space. It's still not that much. You know, you go to people that are, you know, extravagant hobbyists and they have woodworking shops in their basement. What's the difference? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, as far as, like, I have no, I think hobbyist plant breeders can make tremendous progress. You don't really need a lot of technology to,

2:20:14SpeakerYou just got to find that one plant that you like. Well, dare I say, Scott, all we have had is hobbyist breeders in this because really none of us have been able to do what Tweed in Canada is doing now or what Horta Farm did 20 years ago. This was really not the norm.

2:20:32Ryan Dank AfTweed's not doing any breeding. They're selecting.

2:20:35SpeakerThey're selecting and then they're probably, absolutely. That's a great clarification too. They are not even doing the work with the resources they have. They're buying the work from others, which is why they went and worked with Don and Aaron. I have a question for you guys. Has anyone just set up an op where they just have a bunch of different varieties growing in the same room and they just let them all cross pollinate and then just collect all the seed?

2:21:02SpeakerAnd use that as a new round of diversity. Does anybody do that?

2:21:09Ryan Dank AfOr does everybody just... No, well, it takes a lot of effort to cross-pollinate. Like, a lot of people are collecting elite plants. So there's a few people, a few groups that have collections of, you know, upwards of 100 or a couple hundred elite plants. But because of the way cannabis grows, it doesn't... You know, it's, it's dioecious, so it's, it's one sex to the other. It doesn't just outcross to other plants, right?

2:21:31Ryan Dank AfSo you're collecting females, they don't really, they don't just freely outcross to other plants without having to do some intervention.

2:21:38SpeakerYou know, including the males. Like, you know, just having a grow room of males and females of different varieties and just letting them You've got to remember, most people are growing female clones. Very few people grow from seed.

2:21:56Ryan Dank AfThere's a lot of random pollination going on, but there's not a lot of direct breeding with intention, right? Yeah.

2:22:04SpeakerWell, you answered my question. So basically, there's a lot more that can be done, but I think There's so many good strains out there. I mean, what's the next big step? You know, what is the next big step?

2:22:18Ryan Dank AfI think plantable from seed varieties is a huge step that's coming. Automating, you know, automating planting of clones is a lot of work. It's a lot of effort to go into, if you're trying to plant an acre or a hundred acres, you know, that's a lot of work to propagate that many clones. Whereas if you had them from seed and they were true from seed, Then, you know, that's a lot easier to automate.

2:22:42SpeakerIt absolutely can be done because skunk number one was practically true from seed.

2:22:48Ryan Dank AfYeah. And so, yeah, I think that, sure, we found a lot of interesting chemotypes and a lot of interesting flavors, but combining those things with good agricultural yields or pest resistance or mold resistance or all these other things, that's where the true breeding is going to come in. Yeah.

2:23:04SpeakerSo that's, yeah, Mark and I talked about that. Basically, say you wanted to find something that's resistant to powdery mildew. That sounds like a real good start because let me tell you, the modern poly-multi-hybrids, 99% of them are susceptible. Yeah, I actually worked on powdery mildew of wheat. I did my master's degree on it. If you have some diversity, you should not have too much trouble finding resistance to that pathogen.

2:23:37SpeakerBecause it's an obligate parasite, which means it evolved with the host, and usually in those kind of situations, there's always resistant strains out there if you just look. No, it's really easy, Scott. Most narrow-leaf drug varieties

2:24:04Ryan Dank AfWe've also been really selecting so heavily on flavor profile and cannabinoid profile, but mostly flavor profile, that all these other concerns from agricultural perspective have kind of gone out the window. So, you know, I've got a line that is incredibly powdery, mildew resistant, but it's a different flavor class than is what is really common on the market right now. Sam, how did you stabilize skunk number one?

2:24:35SpeakerWell, I can tell you what I did. First of all, I don't want to be claiming that I stabilized skunk number one, because listen to the story. Okay, so I start with Afghan Colombian. I sell that one generation that I hit it with Mexican Acapulco gold to make it earlier. Then I bred it and I sell it on a population level. With, you know, several hundred plants each year to itself for about a decade for 10 years.

2:25:13SpeakerAnd the way I would pick my males is from the line that produced the best females the year before. That's where I would select my males from. So then I brought it over to the Netherlands and grew big grows like 20,000 plants. And selected out the best both male and female clones and did a trial of their progeny that they gave. So I took the 10 best males, the 10 best females, and bred them, made 100 populations, 200 plants of each, so another 20,000 grow.

2:25:53SpeakerAnd I was able to say, oh, this is the best girl. This is the best boy. You know, and this combination is consistently the most consistent, most resin, most flavor, most effects I like, whatever. And so that's the way I did them. And then they were just reproduced by clone.

2:26:16BubblemanUnbelievable. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. The way you just went through that, like it was just something that took you like 12 minutes as opposed to like 22, 23 years.

2:26:28SpeakerNo, it took me, you know, 10 years in the States and then a few years over here before I grabbed the clothes, yeah.

2:26:37BubblemanNice. Well, just a mere 12 years and maybe 50,000 plants and you're laughing. You got it.

2:26:46Etienne FontanThank you for your tireless dedication, Sam. That's beyond appreciated, needless to say.

2:26:53BubblemanHigh Integrity Glass Art says, thank you, Sam. Thank you.

2:26:59SpeakerI say bong rip right now. Please and thank you and other lovers. Load them up. Bong rip. Bong rip. I'm going to smoke some of your rosin, Ben.

2:27:13BubblemanOh, that's a good one, hey, Sam? Like the American Big Buddha.

2:27:18SpeakerGet some turps from Blue River. Not only am I just like the American Big Buddha, but if anybody calls anything skunk, they've got to pay me big bucks.

2:27:30BubblemanEven the animal.

2:27:33SpeakerYeah, the skunk has to pay me now. Didn't you know that? I wonder if we can move on Pepe Le Pew.

2:27:38BubblemanYeah, there you go. As long as he calls himself Pepe Le Pew, it's fine. If he calls himself skunk, he's f***ed.

2:27:49BubblemanWelcome back. Hello.

2:27:55BubblemanGetting a little out of hand here on Hash Church.

2:27:57SpeakerBut all you really have to do is call it skunk number two and then I guess I'll let it slide. Nice. Or unkskay. You know what?

2:28:12BubblemanYou could do skunk number two and then the motto below that could be it's really the shit. Sort of have a number two.

2:28:25BubblemanHey, the jokes will be forever funny.

2:28:31SpeakerSo this topic has got me thinking that the real advantage of more professional plant breeding techniques would probably be to get in these defensive traits because I think the quality and the potency is already there. It should be really easy to bring in disease resistance because those traits are typically single genes and you could use some kind of back crossing. I think that is really important because these crops are not field bred or giant greenhouse bred really.

2:29:17SpeakerThey're closet bred. It'll change, and I think the most important breeding for the near future is once you have lots of THC, how about the right terpenes and the right ratios?

2:29:30Ryan Dank AfYeah, but see, what I'm starting to see is that, and again, I don't know if it's the plants or it's the terpene classes, but some terpene classes, and I think it might be related to the actual terpenes themselves, are, like for example, I think high beta-caryophyllene is going to be mold-prone. Whereas like high terpenylene is mold resistant.

2:29:50SpeakerThen it's even more important to breed for terpenes, right?

2:29:54Ryan Dank AfIt is, but then if the market wants a certain flavor class, And that flavor class happens to be the susceptible group of plants. You've got two competing interests there.

2:30:07SpeakerWell, maybe what you need is super genes, multiple copies of resistant genes that are also with that whatever compound is causing the problems.

2:30:19Ryan Dank AfThis could be through linkage too. I don't know. I'm not saying that it's directly...

2:30:23SpeakerI believe it's a secondary effect. I think there's Thank you for watching.

2:30:46SpeakerA lot of times with fungal invasion, the bacteria are the first ones in that start ringing the fungal dinner bell for the whole zoo of fungi to come in first. So sometimes it's bacteria that get in there first. I'm just saying there might be a whole zoo of fungi and bacteria going on in there.

2:31:04Etienne FontanThat's our concern as we're seeing now. Everybody is trying to now race to the Central Valley here in California now to now look at growing and they're taking all these Small indoor varieties that now are going to be decimated by all kinds of new and interesting blights and issues that come from the Central Valley.

2:31:24SpeakerThat's really not a problem because cream will rise and all the rest will settle in the dust.

2:31:32Ryan Dank AfAgreed. Yeah, but I mean, say it is, say it does end up being a beta-caryophyllene that is high beta-caryophyllene plants are susceptible to molds. Then, you know, when people try to grow stuff like cookies outside that have a demand for that particular flavor profile, and the plant is high beta-caryophyllene, then you've got a situation where you're growing stuff that the mold wants to chew down on.

2:31:55SpeakerAnd now outside you're in a completely different biome than if you're in a sheetrock building in Denver. Yeah, it's just a completely different situation when you're growing Out of doors. And especially if the roots are actually in soil and not actually in a pot somewhere.

2:32:10BubblemanWhat about the idea that all of this breeding or lack of breeding and more so direction of prohibition based vitality has led us to most of these cultivars have a dozen terpenes that are present out of the 180 plus that Could be found and so have we bred out the majority of these terpenes based on vegetative yields and flowering periods and the sort of indoor prohibition based grow platforms or is there going to be a future in cannabis to breed back the terpenes and even the phytocannabinoids for that matter that don't show up in as much cannabis today as maybe did 20 or 30 or 40 years ago?

2:32:51BubblemanYeah.

2:32:54Ryan Dank AfI don't buy that 180 number. I think the 140 number is probably closer to reality. Even if it's 100. Yeah, but even if it is 100, the reality is that it's less than 30 that are found all the time and that are found in actually significant amounts. Right.

2:33:13SpeakerToday, though, I'm wondering... Let me tell you, primitive ganja farmers would have found them And would have raised the levels of them. They did it with all the ones that they really liked. Just like primitive ganja farmers were able to eliminate all the other cannabinoids besides THC, basically.

2:33:34Ryan Dank AfYeah. There's always going to be the aberrant, you know, the few plants, even plants like these, you know, these hemp plants that are producing canoprene, or these plants that are producing the hemp plants that are producing... The SesquicBG, these, you know, prenatalated CBG molecules.

2:33:51SpeakerHold on, Brian. What's Canoprene? You've got to tell me. I don't know what this is.

2:33:56Ryan Dank AfYou can look it up. It's just another rarity molecule that's produced by some hemp varieties. And so, you know, it's just a few plants have this genetic signal, this genetic kind of shadow that still exists that's been carried around by the genome. And even like CBC is another compound that you might be able to compare it to. Because it's only found in like the one, you know, zero to one percent, two percent maybe range.

2:34:20Ryan Dank AfBut, you know, at one point in time perhaps it was expressed higher and the plant is still maintaining it to a certain level that we can actually go in and raise the levels through breeding. So, but I think, again, for the most part, a lot of these things that we talk about when we talk about these 140 terpenoids, They're off, most of them, when they have been identified, it's right around the level of detection.

2:34:46Ryan Dank AfSo we're talking like extremely, extremely small quantities.

2:34:51BubblemanToday, though, I'm wondering if we would have tested them back in, you know, 30 or 40 years ago from more exotic cultivars found closer to the equator, if we would, you know, the things that we have A lot of us have gotten rid of almost in the indoor growing world over the last 30 years here in North America anyway. I just always found really unique flavors when I went to exotic places and I looked for cultivars that were not from North America or Europe but I looked for things that were more like had a history to them.

2:35:22BubblemanYou know in Jamaica it would be like the lamb's bread or something that was narrow leaf in the least and I just always found those unique profiles that just Just something was a little bit different in them, and I wasn't able to test them, so I don't know.

2:35:36Ryan Dank AfIt's really just... Well, yeah, and was that due to environment, or is that due to actually genetics, right? Is that something in the cultivation practice that's bringing out... Maybe both. You know, so definitely as these more testing labs come online in different markets... Also, Ryan, it could be a suite of really minor terpenes.

2:35:55SpeakerHave some effect on the major terpenes and cannabinoids.

2:35:59Ryan Dank AfI mean, that's possible, but it's definitely, at this point in time, it's speculation. It is.

2:36:06SpeakerI would assume that any of the great terpenes were found by most primitive cannabis cultures because all they do is they smoke the seeds of what they like.

2:36:18Ryan Dank AfYeah.

2:36:19SpeakerI mean, they saved the seats, not smoked them, excuse me.

2:36:22Ryan Dank AfWell, and if you, you know, if you also, if you scour the literature or the people who have done this kind of work, you know, ATN DeMoura talks about the terpene dominant varieties that he's found, and there's a couple in there that I haven't seen, or there's one in there that I haven't seen, I should say. But it's out there somewhere if he's found it, so I think it really, again, as more people Just keep growing and screening their plants and having them tested.

2:36:45Ryan Dank AfYou'll eventually find, hey, this one has this peak, this one has that peak. And hopefully those things can be passed around between breeders. And a lot of these varieties can be brought back into the market.

2:37:00Etienne FontanWe need a germplasm institute. Geez, I mean, to... We need to have an area in North America that we can access and have, you know.

2:37:10BubblemanBreeding stock.

2:37:11Etienne FontanYeah, and breeding stock, you know, tissue cultures, you know, saving pollen.

2:37:16SpeakerUntil seeds are legal to ship interstate and within and out the nation of the United States, America's not the place for it.

2:37:29Ryan Dank AfYeah, and either, yeah, I mean, and really, the other place that you could put it is Canada, but right now that's all controlled by a private company, so they're not going to be sharing germplasm.

2:37:39SpeakerNo! Until you can share internationally and interstate, as soon as that happens, then America sounds great, but until then, it's not really ready for the situation.

2:37:56Ryan Dank AfNo, but I can still dream. Yeah, well, I mean, it's great to dream, but fuck, let's see if we can all work towards something where that happens, you know?

2:38:05Etienne FontanWell, aren't we? Aren't we all working toward that one-way share performance? That's why we're all here. We donate our time and our knowledge and spread it out to everybody because we want this knowledge to be taken forward so that the plant can be taken forward so that our reality can be taken forward so that our current day problems are no longer problems for people, that they can focus on where that germplasm institute is going to be located and who's hiring who, what are the job descriptions, you know what I'm saying?

2:38:32Etienne FontanIt's a whole other different reality when you start To break down those barriers, but we're a long way from there. But it just shows, just as a discussion in itself, you know, there's all these different genes that are saved, and there are institutes that save these things, be it private company or by institute. And there has to be something like this for cannabis, I mean, because it doesn't exist.

2:38:55Etienne FontanAnd now with legal states coming online, but Again, the interstate commerce thing makes it prohibitive to be here in the United States. I agree with that, that it has to be somewhere neutral and internationally.

2:39:08Ryan Dank AfThe states would be an ideal spot for it if the federal law didn't exist. We've got to look at the past. Look at the Vavilov Institute in Russia. They kind of did this with hemp lines. They had one of the largest.

2:39:19Etienne FontanThey did it. I bought my hemp from them when we were growing all our hemp in Eastern Europe back in the mid to late 90s. That's where I bought it.

2:39:29SpeakerOne time they had 400 varieties in their collection. It was primarily weighted towards industrial varieties.

2:39:37Etienne FontanAnd that's my inspiration behind it, was to see that they were saved and done for hemp, but it's not done for actually, you know...

2:39:45Ryan Dank AfBut you've got to also look at what happened. I mean, the International Hemp Association and Sam and Rob did a lot of work with this, was getting people to donate money so they could actually have funds to grow out these hemp varieties that were supposedly stored in, you know, in place. So it's... It's going to be a really expensive project. And for it to be of any value, you really have to do an insanely good job of collecting as much genes as possible, right?

2:40:14Ryan Dank AfSo that things are in there. What good is a library if you have two books? Right, and we're talking about the ultimate library, really, where you have to, because, you know, this is the genetic resource for the species. It has to be protected, it has to be passed around by people that know how to use it properly, you know?

2:40:31Etienne FontanBut it has to be accessed by humanity as well. It can't be locked up and protected by one company so that they've got the protectant on the entire species.

2:40:39Ryan Dank AfNo, no, and I agree with that, but also at the same time, it's like when people come and take that germplasm and commercialize it in some way, they benefit from it. So money has to go back to the library because that's, you know, otherwise it wouldn't be there, right? You can't just have corporations come in and take advantage of it.

2:40:57SpeakerCan I just interject? All this is going to change radically. I mean, think of the conversation we're having is in the middle of alcohol prohibition and could those people, those bootleggers, those backyard moonshiners ever imagine what was going to happen with the population growth and to their industry post-legalization? It must have been, you know, I mean Seagram's which is a Canadian whiskey and whatever they make because I don't really drink.

2:41:22SpeakerI remember when they bought like a big Hollywood, you know, Universal or whatever. I mean these are people that were running liquor, you know, down through the Great Lakes in the 20s and 30s and, you know, 70 years later we're buying Hollywood's largest beer. Entertainment powerhouses. So we can't fathom what's going to happen to the cannabis industry in my opinion. And I think that with all these states changing like this, it puts an enormous pressure on the federal government to change their laws or their laws are really...

2:41:56SpeakerIf you look at alcohol, Todd, in the world, probably less than 500 different wine grapes are grown.

2:42:20SpeakerTo supply the entire wine industry worldwide.

2:42:24Etienne FontanWell, you know, what's interesting is you're talking Seagrams and Ben Brofman is actually contributing to the institute because the Brompton family owns Seagrams.

2:42:35SpeakerThey used to own DuPont. They used to be like a third owner of the DuPont company for a while, right, Scott? Hold on, hold on.

2:42:44Etienne FontanThey're actually funding an institute in the Czech Republic, I do believe, right now on medical cannabis. Steph Scherrer from America's Safe Access was over there for their unveiling. At least they're trying to, the further generations are trying to do something.

2:43:03SpeakerOne of the Rothman family had long dreads and hung around in Europe and many other places. And he also built a castle in Negril. And he was a confirmed smoker. I wouldn't be surprised if he ever got any money because I don't know what his financial situation was in the Rothman family. And he was... ATN, was it Ben?

2:43:29Etienne FontanYeah, it's Ben Brofman.

2:43:32Ryan Dank AfWas he, he was the guy that was in your class, wasn't it?

2:43:34Etienne FontanYes, he did arrive, he was in our class, yes.

2:43:37SpeakerDid he have dreads?

2:43:38Etienne FontanNo, he was very professionally dressed.

2:43:43Etienne FontanHis hair was cropped short, it was, you know, everybody was pretty much, you know.

2:43:48SpeakerYeah, but John don't give no power to no bald heads.

2:43:55Etienne FontanYou'd be amazed how much power these bald heads can have sometimes. There you go. Regardless, yes, I'm proud to see at least that someone in the Seagram family putting their money where their mouth is and at least something toward cannabis currently, and that's within the last three months that I saw that press release.

2:44:11SpeakerThat's good because I'm quickly becoming a bald head, so I'm glad to hear that.

2:44:19Etienne FontanI've been called the baldest dreadlock that rosters have ever met, but there you go.

2:44:26Etienne FontanVery good. Very good. Well, you've got to understand, I used to have an all-ages club back in West Virginia, and right next to my club, the machine shop, was this place called the Nyabingi Dance Hall. And the Nyabingi Dance Hall was the main stop for any reggae act, and every Friday, Saturday night was every reggae act. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:45:16BubblemanOh, there's, you know, Guild Extract said you don't have to be, you don't have to have dreads to be a Rasta, and I said, you don't have to be a Rasta to have dreads. There's really no rules to all the rules.

2:45:33Etienne FontanI say we both smoke to the Vatican.

2:45:37SpeakerAre we allowed to do that without Rob Clark? No.

2:45:46Etienne FontanI do it every day regardless, and I will do it again.

2:45:49SpeakerIt's okay, because I have plans.

2:45:52BubblemanRob's coming in August 13th, 2019 at 1145. For all of you that want to mark your calendars, come check that out. What episode would that be? 200 something? He's going to make it.

2:46:08Etienne FontanNice. See, I'm burning my stash in a small series of fires.

2:46:14SpeakerThat's probably the best way to do it.

2:46:16Etienne FontanControlled burn.

2:46:17SpeakerWill that be from Amsterdam or will that be from Turkey?

2:46:21BubblemanWell, I don't pretend to know that. I mean, shit, it's two years from now, so. Two years? Yeah, 2019.

2:46:30SpeakerOh, 2019. Give me a break.

2:46:38BubblemanOh, shit, I can't take a dab. My nail is at like 1,100 degrees right now.

2:46:43SpeakerOkay, that's funny because I did that 1140 degree dab about half an hour ago.

2:46:48Etienne FontanYeah, no glowies, no glowies.

2:46:51BubblemanI felt the heat coming off my bubbler. I was like, that's strange. 1100 degrees off the sapphire, not something you want to do. It's a clean nail now. It's almost a clean nail. It's getting clean. It's still got some dirt in there.

2:47:11Ryan Dank AfSo I'm curious to see what Scott thinks about feminized breedings.

2:47:20SpeakerI actually have more questions than knowledge because from what I saw, I'm still not clear if the feminized seeds are identical to the mother plant.

2:47:34Ryan Dank AfNo, well, cannabis is really highly heterozygous, right? It's an obligate out-crosser, so almost every plant in the gene pool is really not very true breeding. So when you sell it, then it's kind of like a segregating generation.

2:47:51SpeakerThat's one of the reasons it's so, well, it's an advantage to a breeder because, you know, then you get diversity without even trying and you clone when you find what you want. You know, that's basically what's happening, you know.

2:48:04Ryan Dank AfYeah.

2:48:05SpeakerBut so is there just one method for producing feminized seeds and does it always have to go through like a meiosis to do that? Like in other words, can you get a seed that is identical to the parent?

2:48:22Ryan Dank AfNo, there's, like you're talking apomixis? Really? Yeah, there's no measurable amount of APA mixes.

2:48:29SpeakerSo by definition, when you buy feminized seeds, you're not getting exactly what you ordered, right?

2:48:37Ryan Dank AfWell, that's the thing, is even when you buy feminized seeds, sometimes you're buying a self-seed, sometimes you're buying a hybrid seed, right? You can induce plants to produce pollen and then cross them to other plants, or you can induce plants to produce pollen and cross them to the copies of themselves.

2:48:52SpeakerMost people don't like to cross them to themselves because it starts to cause inbred loss of vigor.

2:48:59Ryan Dank AfYeah, definitely. Yeah, well, especially over multiple generations.

2:49:02SpeakerYeah, multiple generations, it's really serious.

2:49:05Ryan Dank AfYeah, but it's also, you know, how you uncover those hidden recessives, right?

2:49:13SpeakerOkay, well, you answered my question. There's no app of mixes yet. That's what I would... That would be my concern is, you know, what are you actually growing, you know? Yeah, but there are simple ways to get around that. You can restore vigor pretty easy. Yeah. Well, that was one of the, that was the whole reason for that reciprocal recurrence selection article is like how do you fix traits but maintain diversity.

2:49:41Ryan Dank AfYeah. Yeah. Yeah, a friend of ours dissected that about 15 years ago on the internet and he came up with a, A plan to do RRS with gynocious mating. So essentially, you know, you'd use all female plants and then do RRS. RRS, for people that don't know, is Reciprocal Recurrent Selection. It was one of the articles that Scott wrote for Sensimia Tips. And it's a breeding program that's designed to create inbred lines with the intention of mating them at the end to create a true F1 hybrid.

2:50:17Ryan Dank AfSo it's a lot of work, and it's really different than the type of breeding that most people are doing these days.

2:50:22SpeakerYeah, and it's exactly what happens in the seed industry. So the inbreds are, you know, they can be pretty messed up, but that's not what you're selling. You're selling the F1 hybrid between two different inbreds. Scott, by the third or fourth inbred generation, mine would not die east pollen. They were... The pollen was sticky, and I had to get a Q-tip to get it out. I'm surprised you got that far.

2:50:54SpeakerYeah. Well, three was usually enough. A couple we took to four. But then we had four completely unrelated lines, which we then combined at the end. So it restored all the vigor. So the story with corn is when they started inbreeding corn, they had the same problem. They couldn't inbreed past a certain level, but just due to a huge Herculean effort of the whole industry, they finally got all the bad mutations purged out, or most of the bad mutations purged out of the corn gene pool so that they could actually It just took time so they could actually have true breeding inbreds.

2:51:42SpeakerSo maybe, you know, that's what it will take with cannabis, just like a huge effort. So you're looking for that rare individual that can tolerate, you know, five generations of inbreeding without dying, you know. It might, that might happen, you know. It would just take a lot of effort though.

2:51:58Ryan Dank AfYeah, so it's really the genetic load of the species.

2:52:01SpeakerExactly. We almost created homogeneous varieties, but... Not quite. I mean, you know, but they were pretty close. Yeah, they got actually corn inbreds now. Okay, so it's pretty much the same situation as cannabis. Corn inbreds now, elite ones, can yield like about almost like about a half as much as a hybrid, which was unheard of, you know, a long time ago. I'm not sure what the current yields are, but they're way better yields for inbreds now than they were 80 years ago.

2:52:46SpeakerWhat trips me out about corn, Scott, is the way that there's the S gene, the SU gene, and the SE gene for sweetness. It just blows me away. Yeah, yep. I wish we were that advanced with cannabis.

2:53:01Ryan Dank AfI think we will be eventually.

2:53:03SpeakerI know we will be, but I wish we were now.

2:53:07Ryan Dank AfYeah.

2:53:08SpeakerAnd think about it, it's actually, corn has 10 chromosomes, it's a diploid, it's very similar to cannabis, you know, so it probably has, so that, so one of the things that I was working on towards the end of my career was bringing, using all the latest technology to bring in Exotic germplasm as quickly as possible. So what happens as a species becomes more and more elite, it's harder and harder to bring in diversity because as soon as you cross with something that's like, quote, wild, you're bringing back in all those deleterious mutations in addition to what you want to bring in.

2:53:55SpeakerIt requires a lot of backcrossing to get rid of the trash you're bringing in. A lot of elite breeders won't even touch exotic germplasm today. They're so elite and they're under such high demand to come up with the next incremental level of yield that they don't even bother with exotic germplasm. I saw that as a huge problem in the industry because eventually you're going to run out of diversity if you keep doing that.

2:54:29SpeakerThe modern methods of DNA fingerprinting and all that stuff and high throughput genotyping, that will tremendously improve your ability to bring in diversity. That was kind of my big thing right before I retired. And you were using that yourself, Scott? Yeah. And was that using SNPs or something? SNPs, yeah. Okay, so it was SNPs. Yeah, and, you know. How many would you look at for soy? How many different SNPs?

2:55:06Speaker20,000, 10,000, 100,000? No, no, no. Yeah, I mean, it depends what you're trying to do. If you're just doing routine breeding, you only need 100.

2:55:16Ryan Dank AfYeah, they're probably looking at, like, genotyping by sequencing or something like that.

2:55:20SpeakerYeah, your GBS, the problem there is you get so much data, then it becomes a data storage problem, you know. But in terms of, like, if you know what the parents are and you know what the genotypes are, in just routine breeding, you only need about 100 markers. Now, there's people that would disagree with me, but that was part of the thing that I kind of proved.

2:55:49SpeakerGene markers are more effective than SNPs. Well, SNPs are gene markers.

2:55:58Ryan Dank AfYeah, I mean, you're talking about characterized markers versus non-characterized markers. Exactly, Ryan.

2:56:05SpeakerSo, for example, if you wanted to back-cross in, like, a powdery mildew resistance trait, all you would need is a marker for the resistance gene and maybe some flanking DNA. Then you'd have thousands of them. And go out thousands and then to recapture the rest of the genome from the elite parent, you really only need about 100 markers when you're within a biparental cross because each marker is representing an entire region.

2:56:39SpeakerYou know, it's not just representing that one gene. So if you space those out, you can pretty much recapture the whole elite background with as little as 100 markers.

2:56:52Ryan Dank AfThe problem is all the elite background you have is, like you said, it's already undergone rounds of selection to be homozygous, whereas most of the cannabis stuff that everybody's working with is still really heterozygous, so backcrossing isn't actually a great way to get to, I mean, you recaptulate the pool, but you don't really recapitulate the hybrid. Yeah. So.

2:57:14SpeakerYeah, the methods that we use would have to be really optimized for cannabis, you know.

2:57:20Ryan Dank AfAnd it sounds like we really need to do a lot of self, like maybe is that something that would be a good step is we just self a lot of plants and see which pools are resistant to. Inbreeding. Yeah. Or which ones are.

2:57:33SpeakerExactly. That's exactly what they did in corn. They just, they kept inbreeding. And as they were inbreeding and selecting for vigor, they were by definition purging the gene pool of the bad genes.

2:57:49Ryan Dank AfRight, and this is what, you know, crops like tomato and all these other selfing species have gone through this process naturally, right? I mean, they selfed out and then all the deleterious recesses eventually get purged.

2:58:02SpeakerWell, I'm not sure about tomato, I'm not real up on tomato, but typically what happens in... In plants, it doesn't become an inbreeder until after it duplicates its genome. So you have to duplicate the genome so that you have multiple copies of every gene. And so you can have big A, big A on one chromosome, little a, little a on another. So you have, you're still, it's like a hybrid, but it's true breeding.

2:58:31SpeakerIt's still, You know, the big A's are on a different set of chromosomes in little ways, so they just stay that way.

2:58:40Ryan Dank AfRight.

2:58:43SpeakerI don't know, that's quite confusing, but...

2:58:45Ryan Dank AfSo they induce polyploidy.

2:58:46SpeakerPolyploidization is almost, I mean, this is my own opinion, there's probably literature out there, but it's almost required in order for you to become a sulfur. You know what I mean? And it doesn't happen in all, it happens a lot in plants. A lot of the domesticated plants are polyploids.

2:59:10Ryan Dank AfYeah, like wheat, wheat's a hexaploid or whatever.

2:59:12SpeakerAnyone that's an inbred crop is, I guarantee you, it's a...

2:59:16Ryan Dank AfIt's even simpler than that. So wait, anything that's an inbred crop plant, like something that we're using for agriculture is...

2:59:24SpeakerWheat, well, not, no, they're not all inbred. Like wheat, barley... Oats, beans, tomatoes, those are all things that can handle inbreeding really well. And what happens is, okay, not only do they handle inbreeding really well, but then when you go to make a hybrid, you don't get that like 100% jump in yield. You might get like a 15% jump because their inbreds are already maintaining diversity within their own genomes.

2:59:57SpeakerRight. Yeah, 70% of all flowering plants on the planet are a polyploid. There you go. There you go. So actually the ones that we work on are like corn and cannabis. They're exceptions.

3:00:12Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, I always, I use the analogy like cannabis and humans. They're both obligate outcrossers that have huge amounts of variation in their pools. Right? And that's a pain in the ass when you're breeding because you've got to deal with all that variation, but it's also a source of germplasm variation to use.

3:00:33Etienne FontanYes.

3:00:34Ryan Dank AfRight? So I think it's an incredible genetic resource, and I think that us getting down to growing 500 clones would be a real disaster to the breeding possibilities of the pool. I think that more people should grow seeds and preserve what we got.

3:00:51SpeakerWell, in the corn and soybean and those kind of crops, the government really pays for the genetic diversity collections because the seed companies don't want to bother. They're too busy cranking out the next elite variety, and it takes a lot of resources to maintain gene pools. So for seed oil hemp, do you think that that's the way it'll be also when, When hemp is growing for seed?

3:01:23SpeakerIsn't that already happening in Colorado? I mean, they're having a conference this month about hemp breeding at the University of Colorado. I think it's July 26th, real soon. And so there's a hemp breeder who's a professor, and apparently they're going to take people on tours of plots and everything. Did you hear about that?

3:01:48Ryan Dank AfNo, I didn't.

3:01:49SpeakerYeah, University of Colorado in Fort Collins. You'll probably find it real quickly on the internet. There's going to be a symposium or something. What variety have they grown in Colorado? Do you know? I have no idea. I didn't read into it much more than that. I was considering going to it, but I have too many other things going on right now. Yeah, you guys should check it out.

3:02:16SpeakerCheck it out. Are any of you In Colorado.

3:02:22Ryan Dank AfI don't think there is anyone. None of our panel.

3:02:25BubblemanI bet if someone watching is though.

3:02:28SpeakerYeah, probably. So yeah, there's a conference on industrial hemp probably next week in Fort Collins. And they're going to take people on tours because this would be the time of the year when they have the pots out, you know. And yeah. Probably should go to it.

3:02:51Ryan Dank AfI wonder if it's the North Colorado Hemp Expo, nocohempexpo.com. Who's this speaker, Brian? No, I'm actually trying to find the date. It doesn't look like it.

3:03:03SpeakerI think it was July 26th to 29th or something like that. Don't you think, I mean, just to qualify that that's probably where, you know, like Scott, you were breeding soybean for years, and again, this is mostly for food. Yeah. The hemp being raised and sold for food, not just medicinal purposes, is going to be a huge driver for big money getting into the cannabis industry.

3:03:37SpeakerYeah. Any thoughts? From what, from what, from how they described it, it sounded like at an actual, you know, not an industrial scale, but a university scale breeding program where he could put out, you know, hundreds, thousands of different rows, different quote lines. I guess they're not really lines, but they're.

3:03:59Etienne FontanWell, LSU just said they're going to do it for Louisiana. They're going to do the growth, so potentially it could be at LSU. Yeah.

3:04:08SpeakerWell, I know it's in Kentucky. I know it's in Colorado. I know that the bill here in Pennsylvania just passed unanimously. It's going to the governor's desk on Tuesday to be signed. So the hemp movement here in Pennsylvania is very, very strong. There's a lot of states that are signing on, again, not for high THC varieties, but for ultimately what's going to be grown in fields right down the road here in Lancaster County.

3:04:36SpeakerWhere it used to be grown in Hemfield Township, Pennsylvania. Yeah, it's amazing that weed is the most useful plant, man, ever. I mean, I can't think of another species that's used for food, fiber, feed, medicine, and also has all the agronomic qualities of cannabis. I mean, it's just It's amazing how they just completely erased history, you know. Like it went from being the most useful plant on the planet to being outlawed.

3:05:14BubblemanYeah. To growing back into the most useful plant on the planet.

3:05:19SpeakerYeah. Welcome to Hash Church. It's like they erased history. Like when you talk to people about this, you know, especially like in Iowa, they're like, they look at me like, you know, you're full of shit, you know.

3:05:32Etienne FontanThere's no way that was ever the most, you know, they just are, it's like... Yeah, and they have no idea how much that used to grow there in Iowa itself by the tonnage.

3:05:42SpeakerYeah, well, there's still wild hemp that grows as a weed here because back in the World War II, when they really needed it, then the government allowed farmers to grow it, you know, because they needed it for the war effort, you know.

3:05:57Ryan Dank AfIt's hemp for victory.

3:05:59SpeakerYes. And... And then they eradicated it again, but the residual seeds from those hemp varieties are still weeds here. So in like September, you can drive through the country here and see like 10-foot hemp plants just loaded with buds. They smell really good too. I mean, I'm sure there's been quite a few people that have, you know, Harvested those and tried to extract shit out of it, but it doesn't do it.

3:06:29Ryan Dank AfIt would be great to get some DNA for those things for some of the sequencing projects.

3:06:35SpeakerYeah, well they're all over Iowa. I mean, you just, and I know, you know, I can, it's illegal to collect it. You know, it's amazing. It's growing in somebody's fence row, but you can't touch it.

3:06:52Ryan Dank AfBastards. Can you, what part of the, is the, like in Canada, there's, like for example, the stocks of the plant are not restricted, so could you maybe collect samples from the stocks or from the petioles?

3:07:07SpeakerI don't know, I don't know what the laws are here, and they're pretty arbitrary. The problem with Iowa is your fate is determined by whoever your local prosecutor is. So if you have a really zealous prosecutor, you can get in a lot of trouble for almost nothing. Where is that not the case? I guess that's the way it is everywhere. But I mean, I've run into cops that are totally cool.

3:07:37SpeakerIt really just depends on the person you run into, you know?

3:07:42Ryan Dank AfYeah, and I think also it's how you treat them, you know? Definitely.

3:07:46SpeakerHave you ever run into Carl Olson? No. My hero is that guy from Texas, Gary, what's his name? The guy that used to be a cop and then... Oh, what's that guy's name? There's... I'm sure you can find this real easy on the internet. There's a guy in Texas that used to be the best drug buster on the force. He... He patrolled like a five-mile road that was near the Mexican border, and he had more drug arrests than anybody in Texas.

3:08:29SpeakerAnd then one day, well, he started dating this girl that was a stoner, and she talked him into trying it, and he was just blown away that he had this revelation. Yeah, Gary Cooper. Gary Cooper, yeah. And he had this revelation that, oh, my God, I'm, Punishing the good people, you know.

3:08:54SpeakerHe was immediately ostracized by, you know, the entire police force. So he quit the police force and now he makes a living defending people that have been busted for weed. And he's doing it as an act of contrition.

3:09:10Ryan Dank AfYeah, I think he's the guy that set up the grow rooms on the internet with like tomatoes in them. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

3:09:20SpeakerNever get busted. Did he get busted?

3:09:25BubblemanNo, his motto was never get busted. That was his... Yeah.

3:09:30SpeakerAnd I'm sure he's like, he went from being like, you know, the enemy to like the best advocate.

3:09:38BubblemanHe used to train drug dogs to bust people.

3:09:43Etienne FontanYeah, he put out a series of videos telling people how to get by them.

3:09:47BubblemanYep. Yeah, he connected with Mark Emery back in the day when it all was happening, and he used to come up here with the girl and hang out at the CC, and I think they maybe wrote for the magazine and were also at least advertisers in the magazine.

3:10:06Ryan Dank AfSo, caryophylline oxide is the terpene that drug dogs are trained on, and I always thought it would be a great idea to produce a plant that produced very little beta-caryophylline so that you wouldn't You wouldn't have that big glowy signature coming off the nose the dogs can detect.

3:10:24SpeakerI'll bet you anything that once the dogs learn caryophyllene, if they're using anything besides caryophyllene by itself, they learn the whole suite.

3:10:35Ryan Dank AfOh, for sure.

3:10:37BubblemanPlus, nowadays, I think I would much rather us be able to focus on Just not prohibition reasons to grow and breed certain things, but like freedom, to be able to breed and grow for the freedom of the things that we desire and want, and that would be most helpful.

3:10:55SpeakerRob Clark and I flew into Italy, and I think it was Madrid, no, no, Milan, and when we got off the plane, they checked us, they searched all the passengers, I I don't know if they're looking for hard drugs from the mafia or what, but I got really bugged, and I had a little bottle of cariophylline with me. So I put it on my feet and Rob's feet, and we walked around the airport.

3:11:30SpeakerThat's awesome.

3:11:30BubblemanOf course, I just love the fact that you were like, I had a little bottle of beta cariophylline just on me while I landed in Milano with Rob Clark. I just had some. I was like, I'll put this on my feet.

3:11:45Ryan Dank AfThey're serious down there. I met a girl at the ICRS, this lady from the states, I'm not going to say what state she was from, but she showed up and she had a fucking bunch of edibles and a bunch of weed and a bunch of joints. And she had no clue, you know, that landing in Italy was such a problem.

3:12:06Ryan Dank AfIt was only the luck that that day they didn't have drug dogs at the airport because they very often do. Oh yeah.

3:12:14SpeakerThey drug dogged me and Rob.

3:12:17BubblemanYeah. And Rob was like, Sam, look who it is. It's Alpha, the white collie. I have his card. He's responsible for a 400 ton seizure. Remember the cards, you guys?

3:12:32SpeakerNo, we were completely blown away when it happened, but they didn't, I mean, they snipped us and kind of looked at us and then just walked off.

3:12:42BubblemanYeah. The joke was that both Sam and Rob have these cards that are like drug dog play, like baseball cards, and it's got stacks on the back. It's just like golden retriever on the front. And his name's Goldie or whatever, and then on the back it's like, responsible for the 400 kilo cocaine bust in the cartels of Sonola. Responsible for, like, all these crazy busts that the dog is responsible for.

3:13:05BubblemanI just couldn't believe it. Where the fuck do you even find such a thing?

3:13:09SpeakerUh, I think I found them on eBay.

3:13:13Ryan Dank AfYeah, that's called propaganda. They make that shit for a reason. That shit's out there, dude.

3:13:18BubblemanThat's the craziest shit I've ever seen in regards to, like, out there shit, which is drug dogs,

3:13:23SpeakerYou've got to remember, I have 1,000 police patches from agencies that are after cannabis.

3:13:34BubblemanI've seen your collection. It's amazing.

3:13:36SpeakerAnd if you figure there might be 50 police each wearing this bag, that's 50,000 souls who are trying to get cannabis people.

3:13:45Ryan Dank AfJesus. Yeah, well, I mean, I thought it was pretty telling the other day when those busts happened in Toronto. If you actually look at the faces of the cops while they're doing it, they don't look quite as much bravado as they used to have. Now that society, you know, nobody buys the lie. Right. So, you can see it on their face. You can see that they don't want to be doing this anymore.

3:14:11Ryan Dank AfYeah, it's not righteous anymore. Yeah, maybe not in Iowa, but, you know, that will come to Iowa too, you know. And it's nice to see the police feel the shame.

3:14:23SpeakerI think most of the cops here are cool. It's just, you don't know the luck of the draw, you know.

3:14:31Ryan Dank AfYeah, there's bad cops, but I still think that the, you know, the position that police play in society is actually, it's a needed thing. And everybody, you know, everybody, when something bad happens to them, they call the cops. You know, and you have to be able to do that when horrific things happen in society. But they should have no business fucking, you know, telling people which plants they can or can't have.

3:14:53SpeakerWhatever happened to like, we're free, we live in a free country, they hate us for our freedom. Whatever happened to that? That was never real, Scott. That was always a facade, bro. We sold it out for an increased acreage and tonnage of soybeans. Yeah, that's what we had. And then built the Trump Taj Mahal on a garbage pit. No, no, a native cemetery. And why is it that right-wingers that want the government out of your business, are they on our side or they should be on our side?

3:15:30SpeakerBecause that's a perfect example of a government sticking their nose into your business.

3:15:36BubblemanI think the problem is that when you look at the earth, you quickly realize there's not really, Thank you for watching.

3:16:05Ryan Dank AfWell, that's very classic in-group, out-group psychology.

3:16:08SpeakerI totally disagree with that. You're totally wrong.

3:16:16BubblemanOh, yeah. That's what I'm saying. I don't know.

3:16:22SpeakerIn Colorado, when I was there, I've been there like three or four times since it's been legal, and it seemed like it's not really a liberal state in Colorado. We have a lot of conservative people there, but it seems like they're over that. They seem to all agree that this is a good thing.

3:16:47SpeakerWhat's happening in Iowa is actually Iowa is pretty, people are well-educated here. There's a lot of liberal people.

3:16:59SpeakerAnd it would probably, if it went to a vote, it would probably pass now. But we have a governor that just refuses to even consider it. I mean, he just made a statement. He's like, while I'm in office, there will be no, nothing will come to the floor on marijuana. You know, it's like, wow, what about your constituents? You know, what do they think? Well, if you think that's bad, wait till Trump gets elected and Christie's put in as Attorney General.

3:17:27SpeakerYes.

3:17:29Etienne FontanWell, in Iowa there, he was talking earlier about Carl Olson. Carl Olson has been working on the system there in Iowa to, you know, change the actual law because, you know, it's just, he's trying to do it the proper ways. It's just a long, slow process.

3:17:48SpeakerYeah. Yeah, that's why I don't. That's why I want to move. I don't want to spend the next 10 years waiting for that to happen. Tell the truth about Carl. I mean, he used to be doing it the proper way. You know what he got popped for, yeah?

3:18:11Etienne FontanNo.

3:18:14SpeakerNo, he got popped for moving 16 tons from Jamaica. Who did? Carl Olson, used to be Coptic Church. 16 tons from Jamaica.

3:18:26BubblemanThat is a lot of Jamaican herb.

3:18:29SpeakerYeah, he did time for it and got out and now he's a marijuana activist again.

3:18:35BubblemanWow, 16 tons, that's... Yeah, that's the old, yeah, that's a long time. That's like beep, beep, beep, beep, that's serious shit.

3:18:47Etienne FontanYeah, there's two types of cannabis dealers.

3:18:49SpeakerThose with forklifts and those without. You got it. You got it. This was multi-forklifts.

3:18:55BubblemanJesus.

3:18:56SpeakerMulti-forklifts.

3:18:57BubblemanSounds like a fleet. Semi-trailers right there. Going in different directions, no doubt. Double containers.

3:19:07Etienne FontanFleet church. That's a lot of actual cannabis growing on an island because you know there's nowhere near that growing. Now, over how many years?

3:19:21SpeakerThat's only 16 acres.

3:19:24BubblemanYeah, I'd say there's way more than that growing now.

3:19:27Etienne FontanWell, now, today, yes, today.

3:19:30BubblemanLike, just in Jamaica, every Jamaican has an acre. It's like an acre, that's like a joint or whatever. It's like, yeah, I got an acre. Doesn't everyone have an acre? Like, just an acre a week. And then there's people who have like 10 and 20 and 30 and 40 and 50 and 60. And more.

3:19:49Ryan Dank AfI thought it was interesting how they're all using the tires to plant in up there.

3:19:54BubblemanYeah, it's one of the ways they can kind of keep the roots separate and move them around if need be.

3:20:00Ryan Dank AfYeah, I can't help think if all the production ends up down on farms, there's going to be a shitload of fucking rubber up in the hills.

3:20:08BubblemanOh, there already is. There's a shitload of rubber on the island. It was... A better option to the past of getting rid of the tires by literally setting them on fire and burning them, which is also what they do when an animal dies on the road and it's too heavy to move. They would put a couple tires on it and then burn that down to the ground.

3:20:26BubblemanThat's why you get these huge potholes. At least they used to do that 20 years ago. I haven't seen it much in the past.

3:20:35SpeakerReally?

3:20:35BubblemanThey did that? Oh my God. Wow. It's a rotten animal and it's super hot. It's like, fuck, you want that shit to... It's like, we gotta get rid of it, man. Gotta get rid of it. Holy shit. It's one big tractor tire, a little bit of gas, and Matt. Yeah, it's crazy. It's not good. First time I went to Thailand and I saw how much garbage they were burning on all those little islands in the south there, it was...

3:21:06BubblemanI just thought, man, this is really bad. There's a lot of burning plastic and shit on tropical islands. It's like, well, we have to get rid of it. It's like, I understand, but maybe we can put our heads together and come up with something better than burning it.

3:21:24SpeakerSo if you've ever smelt a burning tire, I mean, there's a lot. They use sulfur to cross, like, The isoprene chains when they do vulcanization of rubber, right?

3:21:33BubblemanWell, no, it definitely doesn't smell good, Mark, but I'm telling you the burning cow would probably get your mouth watering a little bit if you just smelled that, if you're an avid meat eater, because it smells a lot like a barbecue from a great distance, burning cow flesh. I'm not a fan of it myself, either the flesh or the burning tires, so for me it's a lose-lose.

3:21:57SpeakerWell, I worked at a facility where I think it was every second Thursday they used to begin animal incineration after work hours. And so if you worked after work hours and you caught the wind in the right direction, yeah, you smell. And they did a lot of testing with things like rabbits and bunnies and mice and so nice furry animals. And so most of it smelled just like burnt.

3:22:25SpeakerI would basically turn you into a vegetarian if you knew what you were smelling.

3:22:46Ryan Dank AfHow many meat eaters are there in the hash church, I wonder?

3:22:50BubblemanI bet you a lot. We're talking about it right now.

3:22:55SpeakerI'm pretty sure the vast majority of intelligent people.

3:23:03SpeakerDoes that include bacon? That's funny. Bacon is one of the three basic food groups.

3:23:11Etienne FontanAmen. Testify.

3:23:13SpeakerWhat are the other two? Bacon, grease, and everything else, right? Maybe mayonnaise and heirloom tomatoes. That's it.

3:23:24Etienne FontanMay they find themselves between two slices of toasted bread.

3:23:30SpeakerThe bread will be from mana because I only said three things. So the bread just has to come down like mana.

3:23:38BubblemanBut did bread come down or did it pop up like mushrooms in the morning?

3:23:42SpeakerWell, it depends whether it's toasted or not.

3:23:45BubblemanOh, right, right. Lavender. Veggie mana instead of veggie mite. It's the new Australian spiritual vegetarian dish. Veggie Mana.

3:24:00BubblemanI would say not. Vegans and vegetarians representing. Wow, there's a whole bunch of everything. Vegans, veggies, meat eaters, plant-based, poultry and pork. Hey, you know what? Whatever your diet is, I always just say try to make it the most conscious that it can be. Try to consider all the things that are going on. I don't try to preach one diet over another, but I do... I am happy to live mostly vegetarian with a little bit of fish, seafood in there as well.

3:24:34SpeakerI was vegetarian for 12, 15 years and I finally decided I liked the taste of steaks.

3:24:44Etienne FontanYeah. Yeah, I was vegetarian for about six years, and yeah, I had a dream about a steak, and I had the steak.

3:24:51Ryan Dank AfI had a dream about a steak.

3:24:54Etienne FontanYeah, then, yeah, then goddamn bacon.

3:25:00BubblemanWell, steak and bacon, you know, those are the treats that you can take with you, even into the afterlife. They hang out a lot longer than those plants do, that's for sure. I'll never forget the story of John Wayne and his steak gut when he passed away. Don't Google it. It's nasty.

3:25:20SpeakerI'll pass on all that. I read that chapter in The Emperor Wears No Clothes about essential fatty acids, EFAs, and everything, and it forever changed my view on food. I put so much attention in getting the best nutrients for my plants. Thank you for watching.

3:25:51SpeakerIt's funny. I mean, it's funny how we are more worrisome about our plants, pH. We're more worrisome about the organic nutrients we're feeding them and shit. And then I see guys, you know, peddling veganics and eating McDonald's. And I just got to laugh my ass off. You know?

3:26:09BubblemanYeah, well, that's low qual. I use the analogy, okay, to cannabis people who are considering themselves connoisseurs. I would always use the analogy like... That you, it just, it's, you're basically eating the equivalent of like moldy Mexi-Schwag wrapped in green thick papers lit with a Zippo. Like that's the lowest quality that you could possibly go for. And it's just a strange thing. Humans are like that. We'll pick something that we love and it's like got to be the best, but then we'll just like eat sticks of butter.

3:26:42BubblemanMarcus.

3:26:44SpeakerThe first time Rob and I were going to China, it was like, I don't know, in the very early 90s. Everything was grown with human shit. Every vegetable was grown with human shit. Night soil. Yes, exactly. And, yeah, I mean, if you were a vegetarian, good luck, Chuck.

3:27:08BubblemanSo just eat the meat that contains the actual shit that you're afraid of eating?

3:27:13SpeakerNo, what you do is you have meat and you made sure it was fried or cooked on a grill or something like that. And you hoped you wouldn't get sick. But vegetables, I mean, if they were cooked, boiled, I'm sure they were fine.

3:27:31BubblemanI'll tell you, in India I was definitely making a point on eating food from the side of the road that was only like boiled in oil at like a thousand degrees.

3:27:39SpeakerYeah, then you're probably pretty safe.

3:27:41BubblemanI'll take some of that. Just don't touch it with anything.

3:27:46SpeakerWell, wait a second. We heard reports, I was working on a project a few years ago where they were actually prying open transformers that used to contain PCBs, taking the oil dielectric out of there and using that. It's scary to be in India and be like, I just don't want to get so sick that I die. I just want to avoid that experience, which I managed to do myself, but I'll tell you.

3:28:09BubblemanHow was the hash there?

3:28:27BubblemanWell, we brought the hash from Nepal to make sure that it was really on point. You answered my question. Yeah, you bring the cream down from the mountains and no matter where you are.

3:28:39SpeakerIt grows wild in certain areas of India. I mean, it's just like, you know, wild. Like Scott was saying, it just grows everywhere.

3:28:46BubblemanYeah, but just not the stuff that you might want to be like. Right.

3:28:51SpeakerThe best is from cultivated fields. It does grow wild in many places in India, especially up in the Kashmir area and the Manali and Kulu area. It's everywhere as far as the eye can see. Yeah, Himachal Pradesh. What are the customs and laws around cannabis use and practice in India right now? It's illegal everywhere in India. It's tolerated by sadhus. In some religious ceremonies like the Kumbh Mela, Mark's been to them.

3:29:28SpeakerHe knows them even better than me.

3:29:32BubblemanYeah, it's definitely a good time to go. If you do plan to go see India and you're a smoker, I always suggest, like, a Kumbh Mela is definitely a very unique experience. The history is... Vast. They've been doing these Mahas and Maha Mahas and Kumbh Melas for, I'm guessing, like more than hundreds of years, maybe in the thousands, I don't know, but long time.

3:29:56SpeakerHow many people were at the one you attended, Mark?

3:29:59BubblemanI went to a Maha, which is a 12 years, so every three years they have it in a different holy city, and it's like Alabad, Jaipur, Haridwar, and Varanasi? I think those are the four. Anyway, it recreates every three years, and so every 12 years it goes to the main first one, which is Haridwar, which is the furthest north up in the foothills of the Himalayas. And, of course, every 144 years, that's the really, really big one.

3:30:32BubblemanSo the 12-year one that I went to, I'd say three to four million people were there. And keep in mind... Keep in mind, most of them walked there from all over India, Nepal. Like, it's crazy shit when you're like, okay, so what do you mean you walked here? It's like, yeah, I left like eight months ago, you know. It's like, why are your legs purple? It's like, well, I came out of the mountains, you know.

3:30:56BubblemanI was walking out of the mountains. It's like, yeah, but your legs are purple. They look like they're going to fall off. He's like, oh, no, this happens all the time. It'll go away. I'm just like... The whole time I'm there, I'm just witnessing impossible shit that is not possible where I come from. And it's just happening all around me. And it's a great environment to learn about different cultures and learn about different belief systems within Indian cultures, like the Brahmas and the Shivites and the Nagas.

3:31:24BubblemanYou can go and sit and smoke with any of these groups. And it was very cool. It was a learning experience for me, for sure.

3:31:35BubblemanYeah. Well, what do you guys say? Are we good with three and a half hours of Hash Church today? Do you guys have anything else you want to go on about today and discuss? I relieve you all to your Sunday afternoons with your family, friends, and loved ones.

3:31:53SpeakerDry sift. Rip.

3:31:56BubblemanDry sift. Rip.

3:32:04SpeakerHey, I want to thank you, Scott, for joining us today. It was really nice to have someone on from so far back into this, and thank you for being anonymous and writing things that would help us. He's like a living dinosaur. Yeah, it's amazing. I had no idea that anybody ever actually read those until recently. Surprise! I saw somebody on a forum, on one of the forums, he cut out my entire article about RRS and posted it on a forum.

3:32:42SpeakerHe didn't have the figures in it or anything, but the entire article. And then at the top of the article it said something like, whoever you are, Chief Seven Turtles, we thank you for this article.

3:32:57SpeakerAnd I never wrote in or anything, but that was very rewarding.

3:33:05BubblemanHow about you leave us with the story of how you chose that name? Chief Seven Turtles? Yeah.

3:33:13SpeakerWell... Or at least tell us who was Chief Six Turtles. Well, it kind of goes back to my childhood. I went to Catholic school, and... You know how, like, if you have a scientific mind, Catholic school is very confusing. You go from, they had really good science class, and what do they teach you in science? They teach you to question everything, right? And then you go to religion class, and they teach you, don't question this, or you're going to go to hell, right?

3:33:50SpeakerSo I was like, hmm. So I was probably in first grade and I said, oh, I get it. You just make something up and then it doesn't make any sense at all and just get everybody to believe it. So I made up my own religion and the central belief was that everyone has seven turtles. In other words, it doesn't make any sense at all, right? And amazingly, all my friends were like, yeah, I got seven turtles.

3:34:15SpeakerPretty soon it was like the cool thing to have seven turtles, you know. And to even ask what it meant was like a, it was against the religion to even ask what that meant, right? So that's how it started. And then, you know, later in life, that's how I picked that thing. John McPartland kind of helped me. He was like, you got to come up with, you know, you got to come up with a cool name, you know.

3:34:43SpeakerAnd Mark said, Hey, that might help you to get some business on some Indian reservations. A couple years before I read that, I just happened to have seven turtles. No way. I thought you guys were following me. It's amazing how that comes up. You think that you wouldn't run into that, but people send me pictures of groups of seven turtles and Everywhere people go, they buy me turtles.

3:35:15SpeakerSo I have like millions of turtles in my house, but I only have seven. Okay? So that's actually, that was a sacrilege to even say I have a million. I have seven. Sorry.

3:35:29BubblemanSeven is plenty.

3:35:30SpeakerYeah.

3:35:32BubblemanHow many more do you need?

3:35:34SpeakerSorry you asked. I didn't answer that.

3:35:37BubblemanNo. No. We needed to know. We needed to know. People would have been asking me all fucking week. Why is his name Chief Seven Turtle?

3:35:50SpeakerFrom the Turtle Clan.

3:35:53BubblemanAll right, guys. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. HashChurch95. Thank you, the audience, for watching. Obviously, we're stoked to have had some nice dialogue and conversation. Until next week, where we won't be planning who is coming on, because when we do that, it does not work out. But next week we'll have some cool, cool for you as well. Peace out, everyone. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Scott.

3:36:18BubblemanThanks, Mark, Johnny B, Skunkman, Etienne, Chimera, Todd McCormick, Tony, who already left, and D420K, Bong Rip, mother lover.