Cannabis Legalization and Driving Laws in Canada

0:01BubblemanAll right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Hash Church episode 134. Much appreciated that you guys all made it. Sorry for a little bit of the lateness. A little bit tardy this morning as I was rushing back from Whistler as today is, of course, my son's last day of ski school. Happy Easter to everyone out there that is celebrating with their little children. Such a sweet, sweet experience to watch your two-year-old come out of the bedroom and be so excited.

0:29BubblemanNow, my wife has always Thank you for watching.

0:48BubblemanCool play out to the day. Missed it, but got to see the video. So I guess we're going to send this chat room hangout here real quick. Let me bring the crew in because this isn't a wake and bake. This isn't Bubble Man by himself. No, this is the whole crew. I'm going to get the panelists in here. ATN, Mark Scaldone, Tony and Todd. We've got Kevin McKernan coming in today to share a little bit with us.

1:11BubblemanHopefully he has some interesting things to say. Of course, he's in the same boat as me with ski season. It's always a little bit hard for him to get on Hash Church during this time of the year. However, out on the East Coast, it's pretty much over now. So I guess we'll see him on Hash Church a little more than we have in the past. All right, getting everything over here.

1:33BubblemanInviting, oh, we got almost 400 people in the room. That's very sweet, very sweet. Hopefully the link has worked. Yes, I see it has. It has. Welcome, Todd. Good morning, bro. How are you doing today, Todd?

1:47ToddI woke up early just for you, Mark.

1:49BubblemanOh, I appreciate it, dude. Todd, of course, is always backing me up just in case I can't get there on time, so we do appreciate that. How's my sound? I should probably go get my headphones, hey?

1:59ToddSounds great. A little echo, but it sounds great.

2:02BubblemanYeah, I want to get my headphones. I'll be right back if you guys want to hold court for me.

2:08Etienne FontanSure. Hey, can't talk. I'm just kidding. Good morning, everybody. How's it going? Welcome to Hash Church. We're running a few minutes late, but we're here. We're doing fine. Todd's got his gig along because he's usually just sitting there going. And again, congratulations on your freedom. I'm not free. I'm an American. We're all screwed.

2:39ToddI'm just joking. Everybody say that when I get out of jail. Dude, you're free. I'd be like, if I was free, would I have gone to prison in the first place for growing flowers? Flowers. I grew flowers, really. That was my crime. What'd you do? I grew flowers. What'd you do? I robbed a bank.

2:52BubblemanIt's like celebrating that moment in time where they took everything away from you and it cost you 50 to 100K and then you didn't actually end up in prison, which was totally unreasonable anyway. And people are like, you won, dude. You won.

3:06ToddAnd you're like, nah, I didn't win anything. Actually, I had to pay for this.

3:11BubblemanOh, shit. Well, welcome to Mr. Scaldone and Mr. Burf Fellow into the room. Hey, everybody. Hey, Doug.

3:19ToddWhat's happening?

3:22SpeakerHappy Jesus Zombie Day. Happy Jesus Baby Zombie Day.

3:26Etienne FontanYeah, right. I thought he comes out of his tomb, and if he sees his shadow, you get 3,000 more years of Catholicism. Is that true?

3:34BubblemanIt works. I heard that, actually. As they were strapping me with a strap in Catholic Church, they were telling me that very thing.

3:42ToddBecause they loved you.

3:46ToddHey!

3:47BubblemanShout out to Buck Nasty, The Player Haters Club, Charlie Murphy, RIP brother. I only met him once and got to chill with him one time with my wife at a club. We were sitting at our own private little table and he got brought over before his stand-up show and it was the only seat so him and his bodyguard sat with us and uh I just wanted to say shout out to Charlie Murphy.

4:10BubblemanSome of the greatest comedy ever from the Chappelle Show came from the true Hollywood stories that Charlie Murphy told about Rick James and Prince. And I just had to get that out because I was sad to see that he passed away. Didn't even know he was sick. I guess he's a private guy, but yeah, if you're bored later on today, maybe watch some reruns of a Chappelle show or check out some YouTube on Charlie Murphy.

4:33BubblemanThe guy was really hilarious and he has passed. And of course, the world of comedians is a little bit less off because of it.

4:42Etienne FontanRight. His Rick James story from the Chappelle show is without a doubt comedy history gold there. And then the Prince stories from the, you know, game blouses.

4:55BubblemanWell, because it wasn't made up. The fact that it was true, you know, the fact that it was true, but it was so out there. It really, to me, was the, the, the, Thank you for watching.

5:24ToddI was going to say that Charlie was a medical cannabis user. And it was pretty incredible that he kept his disease secret until he passed away. People that we worked with didn't even know. But I read some of these. He didn't want it to define who he was. And I totally relate to that. For years, after I got over having cancer when I was 10, when I was like 12, 13, 14, I didn't want my friends to know I had cancer.

5:46ToddBecause I hid it like it was some kind of embarrassing disease. I just didn't want that to always be around me. Oh, poor Todd. I fucking hated it. I hated it so much. So I really related to that when I realized that he kept it to himself until he passed.

6:04BubblemanWell, it's a personal thing. You know, your mortality is an extremely personal thing and everyone's going to deal with it. The end of it differently. Was it looking?

6:14ToddYeah, he was a hero all the way. He just braved in the face and smiled all the way to the end. And I just think that it's just it's beautiful. It just shows how strong the spirit really was.

6:25Etienne FontanYes. Great smile. I saw pictures of him dabbing, too. So he was hitting it hard.

6:30BubblemanYeah. The picture that you saw, was he dabbing a heat stone pipe?

6:34Etienne FontanI don't remember looking. It may have been, but he was definitely hitting that motherfucker hard.

6:39BubblemanYeah, right on. That was a friend of mine, Matty, who lit him up with that. That was in Vancouver the same night that I met him. It's just a photo I saw circulating quite a bit.

6:50Etienne FontanOh, my goodness. Thank you.

6:53BubblemanEaster treats from the wife. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Always taking care of me off camera. My beautiful lady.

7:00Etienne FontanSo do you hide the eggs for the kids for Easter or anything like that?

7:05BubblemanMy wife buys these plastic eggs and then puts healthy treats inside of them, like strawberries and pineapples and cut up fruits and nuts and stuff. And when the kids are two and three, they're just as happy with that than any sort of toxic chemical...

7:22SpeakerMy kids get fives and tens rolled up in those little Easter eggs because the nuts and candies don't cut it anymore.

7:31BubblemanYes, yes. You know, it's funny because I also have older kids and I guess we'll probably have to start taking a book or a page out of the Scaldone book because my 16-year-old daughter is definitely not interested in plastic eggs with strawberries inside.

7:47SpeakerSo that's what you do. The nominations of fives and tens or 20s.

7:51Etienne FontanSo, Doc, are you just too lazy to go to the store?

7:55SpeakerThis is totally my wife's department. As you can see, I'm not in my home digs. We're down at my in-laws in Florida, and so this all has to be transported on a plane and transported home, and greenbacks are easy to get back.

8:11SpeakerConvenience of parroting sometimes. Absolutely, man. Throw money at it, and it goes away.

8:17BubblemanSo we had some pretty major news here in Canada. I did invite a bunch of the Canadian contingency, hoping that they would make it in today. I can't promise they will. I invited Chris Bennett, Jodi Emery, and Dana Larson, kind of three of the louder activists in our country. Thank you so much for joining us.

8:47BubblemanHe even went back to Calgary recently, which I think was balls to the wall because last year they arrested him for giving out seeds. He went back to Calgary this year. The cops were totally cool. I saw pictures of them smiling and laughing with the people in the outside, in the audience, so to speak, before they went in. And welcome, Indra. And they just didn't touch him.

9:08BubblemanHe gave away seeds the whole time. He went to Calgary. I believe he went to Newfoundland. Thank you for joining us.

9:32BubblemanCanada's recent laws that they're sort of announcing legislator for, I guess, what you want to call legalization. From the majority of the activism standpoint, it's just all complain, complain, complain, almost the same way people complained about OMA. There are fucked up things from like, oh, passing a joint to a 13 or a 14 year old kid can get you like 14 years in prison. That's the maximum sentence now.

9:56BubblemanAnd I'll have you know that Canada has all sorts of fucked up maximum sentences. That we've never actually given anyone. So for instance, Jody and Mark Emery are currently facing life in prison, which is 25 years in jail here in Canada. And the reason they're facing that is because in Canada, anything over, I want to say three kilos The maximum fine is life in prison, which is here in Canada 25 years.

10:22BubblemanSo there's all sorts of fucked up rules that are already on the books here in Canada that they don't exercise that right. So I'm personally more focused on the fact that we can all grow some plants. Anyone that's over 18 years old, unless the province decides that they want it to be an older age, like 19, 20, 21, whatever, I guess they're going to allow that. Thank you so much for joining us.

11:09BubblemanThey are going up against the largest world agenda that is against cannabis and they're still saying we're legalizing it. So you got to think that they're fighting a pretty like serious fucking beast when it comes to trying to produce federal legislation for legalization.

11:29Etienne FontanThat's all I wanted to say. So you've had a little time to digest this, gentlemen. So what are the negatives that you're like, fuck it, and then what are the positives, like, do not do this?

11:42BubblemanSay again?

11:44Etienne FontanWhat are the negatives first? I always like bad news first. And then what are the positives?

11:48BubblemanOK, well, the negatives would be like any any type of jail. The fact that they're still enforcing cannabis law as though it were illegal rather than losing all of that silly legislation that's going to put, for instance, you know, you have a license or you have the ability to grow four plants. It's not a license thing. It would be a legalization legislation. For anyone over 18, well, if you grew five plants, mandatory minimum of like multiple years in jail.

12:13BubblemanNow, it's very unlikely that that's going to be the case, but the fact that it's there is scary and it's definitely something that will be practiced against through civil disobedience and changed instantly along with the height of the plant, the plant limits, the limit of the amount of bud that you can have. But for now, we've got limitations of 100 centimeters, four plants, As well as 30 grams to carry with you.

12:37BubblemanSo I've already heard tons of people tripping up. How am I supposed to only carry 30 grams? And I'm sitting there thinking, you know, I don't know any of my friends that smoke 30 grams in a session.

12:46Etienne FontanIs that just flowers or is that concentrates too?

12:49BubblemanYou know, I would suspect because in Canada for the MMAR, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, John, that cannabis, the judge removed dried from the word marijuana. And when he did that in the Owen Smith case, it changed the definition of cannabis to being not just dried bud, but actually to cover the entire cannabis plant. And that's how we first got permission to start doing extracts in Canada.

13:13BubblemanSo I suspect Is hash even allowed in the legislation for the four plants, John, or is that still on hold as well?

13:24Johnny BSorry, guys. I've been trying to kind of get my stuff here together. So I did a lot of reading. I've read the bill. We talked about it yesterday on Cannabis Culture News with Dan and stuff like that, actually on Friday. So the bill is kind of interesting. Now, when it comes to any solventless or non-solventless extracts, any kind of butane, any kind of anything, it's not allowed.

13:41Johnny BSo you can squish your buds. Thank you for watching.

14:02Johnny BWhen it comes to growing, it's four plants and it's per household. So I really took a look at that and it's the dwelling house and it says in the dwelling house. The dwelling house consists of anything on the property, outbuilding, garden, your front yard, wherever you can, you can kind of basically at that point, but you can't cure it by the sounds of it outside for smell.

14:24Johnny BThere's a lot of things with this whole bill on if an 18-year-old sells a joint to a 17-year-old, he can do 10 years in jail. That's kind of ridiculous, right?

14:34BubblemanBut he can is so unlikely though, you know, the fact that it's there. For instance, it's illegal to sell bongs in Canada. Every store in Canada that's selling bongs could face time in prison. That's on our books, but our police don't actually do it.

14:49Johnny BYou're right, but here's one thing that really came to light. They spent $2.3 billion on cannabis law enforcement last year. And they put in this new bill, and they're going to put it through. They're going to spend more on cannabis enforcement. It's a moneymaker. The way I look at it, so now they have to inspect all these houses that are over 30 grams. They're doing this. It's just a money will, guys.

15:09Johnny BI mean, it's legalization. We're able to start caring, but you know what? I mean, it's... It's legalization with no advertising. They've got to put it behind closed doors. You can't advertise, sponsor events. I can't sponsor any more events in Canada. I can't go med, tailor. They can't do crop, can't do bull med. We can't sponsor any more events. No more advertising. No more printing company names.

15:32ToddCan I just throw this out there though? You know, you guys, Canada being you guys, have come so significantly far from not being allowed to sell books about cannabis in the early 90s to now here. I can't imagine that whatever legislation they put down is going to go through nothing but a changing curve as people adopt to the new and relaxed lifestyle and the freedoms that they have because Thank you for watching.

16:15ToddVery impressive.

16:17Johnny BIt's what they put into. Like I said, they put $2.3 billion into cannabis law enforcement. So with the new laws, they can continue. It's a money-making thing in a way. So we have legalization, but they're going to enforce that legalization, and they can do that with more jobs. It's just the way I look at the way society runs. I mean, it's money.

16:36BubblemanWell, you know what, John, though? Unfortunately, since the MMAR, since the MMAR has started, It's been a money thing. And not for the government, for all the people who have had protection. So it's kind of always been a money thing, but now different people with bigger money are getting involved and the smaller people are like, oh my God, this is terrible. This is a money thing. All they're doing is making money.

16:59BubblemanAnd I'm like, kind of like you've been doing for the last 25 years or is it different? Like, I'm just curious.

17:05ToddNo, but that's what I mean. Everything around prohibition has been about money, from locking us up to stealing our property to every little bit, us bobbing to buy lawyers, everything.

17:14Johnny BThe seizure laws are insane. Like, they can basically, they can pull you over and they can trust you. There's no, like, and they didn't get, there's no three new law enforcements around driving offenses related to alcohol. Now it's mandatory. Dude, dude, shut that down.

17:33BubblemanWe will shut that down, bro. We will absolutely... People like you, John, and myself will absolutely shut that down.

17:39Johnny BI've been... That means I can never drive again because I take... Well, that's it. Exactly. It's impossible. Quality of life. And I'm fine, brother.

17:47BubblemanWhat if we go and get ourselves tested while heavily therapeutically medicated? Because... You know, it's why Vice contacted me recently. They want me to go out to Toronto at the end of the month. And there's some high profile politician. I don't know if it's going to be Bill Blair or if it's going to be Trudeau or whoever. Someone deeply involved in legalization. And they want me to ask them the question about, now it's not in regards to driving, but it's in regards to records.

18:13BubblemanFor people like myself who have a record for cannabis, but now years later have legal businesses, do consulting for legal companies, have my own legal cannabis business. In multiple countries, should I hold a possession record for something that is completely not illegal in my country anymore? So that's the question that's going to be. Things like that, to me, we've already got our foot in the door. It's going to be very, very easy to show them that people who are under the influence of cannabis and feel so, you know, affected by it won't drive.

18:45BubblemanThey just won't. It's not alcohol.

18:47Johnny BIt's not like I go and do big dabs and go for a drive. I sit at your place always. We do Puff Wednesdays. I always wait a couple hours before I get behind the wheel and drive home. I'm not doing dabs while we're driving. So it's the same thing, right? I mean, it's the same thing as going home and having dinner and having a glass of wine.

19:01Johnny BIt's not the same thing.

19:01ToddYou can't drink all day and then reasonably operate any machinery. No, you can't. If you wake up at 9 a.m. and start drinking like I smoke weed, no, by 9 p.m. you're fucking swamped. But on cannabis, it's a whole other world. And I mean, everyone watching this has had a cop pull behind them while they were stoned, and they have felt their buzz immediately leave their body.

19:25ToddAnd you know, it is a different trip. I mean, the anxiety when you see a cop behind you blows whatever good buzz or high you've already got from cannabis. And it's not the same. Alcohol, you can't leave.

19:51BubblemanAnd you know what? I'm down with the sobriety in a sense, but what Canada's trying to do is measure your THC levels in your bloodstream, which is, it's not an accurate description of intoxicated or whatever the term they're using. It's not accurate in any way, shape, or form. So trust me, with the civil disobedience that we have already gained foot of in Canada, this whole driving one is not going to hold.

20:16BubblemanIt's just not.

20:17SpeakerHere's my question. I have a question about this bubble, man. So you're driving along in your self-driving car and you're sitting in the backseat smoking like crazy and a cop pulls up behind you. You can stop worrying, right?

20:31ToddI would think so. You know, I mean, you're still operating the car. You're not driving the car. It's just like cruise control with a with a fancy cruise control.

20:40BubblemanWell, also, I guess, you know, in the future, these cars might get to a next level where they are, well, absolutely they will, where they'll be able to drive more accurately than humans could possibly even try to attain.

20:52SpeakerSo how do people who drink at a bar get home from the bar, right? There's a parking lot where everyone parks their cars. They're parked at the bar. Why? After drinking at the bar and after watching a football game or a baseball game, Thank you for joining us.

21:23ToddAnd I mean, it should be about intoxication because the truth of the matter is, is why I think it's a little ironic that they're going to stop people from smoking cannabis and then operating heavy machinery because of the fact that Marinol's already been legal to drive and operate machinery since the 80s. I mean, if you looked at when Marinol was a Schedule II in the 90s, it never said you can't drive anymore.

21:46ToddIt said do not operate heavy machinery until you're familiar with the experience, familiar with the drug. It says that on a lot of pharmaceuticals. I think there is a lot of exercise responsibility. Look, if you eat a couple of edibles with 500 milligrams of THC, you sure the hell should not be operating anything. Right?

22:05BubblemanRight, but at the same time, you wouldn't. It's not like alcohol. It doesn't like convince you that you are awesome and can do, you're like, yeah. It's like if you ate some 500 milligram edible and were like sitting there drooling, the last thing on your mind, you'd be like, I should go to 7-Eleven right now and get like a root beer. I'm gonna drive there. I'm just gonna jump in my car.

22:27BubblemanEverything will be fine. It just doesn't happen like that. And really the people who know this more accurately than anyone, Our 911 operators who take the calls when highway traffic fatalities and accidents involving death or extreme injuries. Alcohol is present like I want to say eight, nine out of 10 times. Not cannabis. Alcohol. Don't compare them. That's the flaw. The flaw in the logic is that these people who have been lying about cannabis for so long, who have basically turned, you know, the THC molecule into the black sheep who are currently trying to create the CBD molecule as the valedictorian football player, blonde hair, blue eyed awesomeness.

23:10BubblemanAnd it's all just it's just not accurate. It's there's no accuracy in comparing cannabis. Thank you so much for joining us.

23:47BubblemanYou get a whole bar full of them, like Mark Scaldone was mentioning. I'm guaranteeing you people are driving out of those bars hammered.

23:55SpeakerSo clearly, the thing is, go buy all your munchies before you get high.

24:00BubblemanThat's it. I mean, we know that since like grade 10 or whatever. We figured that out. It's like, I don't want to have to walk back through the house and have my parents see me. We got to come home with this shit, then puff, then eat. Now, quickly, I'm going to transfer the conversation because Kevin McKernan's been so kind to come in with us today. He's wanted to talk a little bit about these portable PCR things that he's got going on.

24:23BubblemanSo... Why not give you the floor, Kevon?

24:26SpeakerWell, I was going to ask folks if anyone on the ethanol receptor, right? Do you guys hear me? It's called the liver. Yeah. It's called the liver, and it's highly titratable. It's a good correlation between blood alcohol content impairment. We don't have that with THC. And it's people's... Thank you for joining us.

25:20SpeakerIs there a correlation between THC in the blood or metabolite in the blood with impairment?

25:25ToddIs there anything scientific that can back up the fact that I think a cop can scare your buzz away? Oh, I agree, dude.

25:32BubblemanIt's called a bioassay and it is accurate. Not only from cannabis, I've had a mushroom buzz blow right out the back door.

25:40ToddNot so much on the mushrooms. I just have to be friendly on mushrooms. I was like, a nice cop. I was wrong.

25:47SpeakerAdrenaline kills all highs, by the way.

25:50BubblemanYeah, that's what I'm saying. And so for me, I was pretty high on mushrooms, got pulled over, got arrested, got sent to jail. And I'm not going to lie, I was no longer high on mushrooms. That vibe was like gone.

26:04ToddAlcohol, though, it doesn't work with, but it's not a high, like Indra just said. It's really a low, but it doesn't work. You can't use anxiety to get rid of drunkenness.

26:13Etienne FontanSo is adrenaline then the binder to the, does it bind to CB1 receptors, CB2 receptors? Is that why it is officially killed?

26:22SpeakerI think there's an unknown endocannabinoid called paranoidamide. And it's emitted every time you see, like David Crosby said, when I look in my rear view mirror and see a police car, you know, and you got your freak flag flying, whether it's a long hair, Or a fish sticker or a Grateful Dead sticker, and they got you pegged as being someone who they need to pull over. So yeah, there could be an endocannabinoid that's emitted that sort of acts as the buzzkill thing, Todd.

26:55SpeakerMaybe. Who knows? They do have a paper out on ADHD under the influence of cannabinoids being better drivers.

27:04Etienne FontanI always felt that.

27:05SpeakerI always felt that.

27:08Etienne FontanWell, the Jamaican study, and there was the Dutch, I think, also did studies. The various countries who have done studies on driving and cannabis and found that people drive safer, one mile per hour, usually under the speed limit. They're more cautious. They're not as reckless.

27:24ToddTechnically, the way the test showed is that at first they made more mistakes than the straight group and less mistakes than the drunk group. But over the course of a few hours, the cannabis users ended up making less mistakes than even the straight group and they associated with losing interest in the activity because the stoners were more... We're focusing longer on the task than the people that were straight and started playing with the radio or thinking about whatever else they wanted to be doing, which is really significant because on long trips, a stoner would be a safer driver than somebody that was straight.

28:01BubblemanWell, you know, once again, the stereotype is that smoking cannabis or, you know, using cannabis is going to cause confusion and loss of focus and lack of memory when really that's not the case all the time at all. And guaranteed when you're talking about the X game athlete, the pro skier, the pro snowboarder who's puffing before he goes and does his triple backflip off the 80 foot cliff.

28:23BubblemanThat's that's that's serious stuff. That's like life or death. You make a mistake in that and you're done.

28:29SpeakerAt Cannabrand earlier this week we heard of Evan Britton who was a NFL football player who used cannabis before his best games. He said his concentration was intensified while he was on cannabis and it was cannabis that he thought attributed to the best games in his career. Wasn't that right, Kevin? He was talking about using it before and after, not just for pain but for focus and concentration.

29:00SpeakerThe good point there was that he had, AP Press came and started filming this, and thank God Martin Lee stood up.

29:11SpeakerIsn't THC playing a role? And they, who is it, Ricky Williams, who just based it and said, yeah, everyone. Right, yeah, it was Ricky. So good to get that out there, because they're all pushing a really heavy CBD stuff. So they know that THC seems to still be the redheaded stepchild.

29:33BubblemanIs anyone else having Kevin come through a little choppy? You know what? If you've got time to read. Am I breaking up?

29:39SpeakerIs this better if I keep listening?

29:40BubblemanWell, I'm not sure. I think you might have a shitty internet connection. Try, try. Yeah, here, let me.

29:46SpeakerAll right, I'm coming.

29:48Etienne FontanYou may want to try restarting it, Kev. You are just, every other word you're just cutting out completely.

29:52BubblemanYeah, and I'd really like to hear what you have to say when we start talking about the PCR desktop. Cool.

29:58Etienne FontanYeah, yeah, yeah. I want to hear you clearly for sure.

30:01BubblemanAll right, cool. Kevin's going to come back. We've got 700 live viewers. We've got a whole schwack of people in the chat room right now talking about a bunch of different things. I guess still mostly talking about cops and getting pulled over. And yeah, that'll be a nice thing when it's a thing of the past, won't it?

30:16Etienne FontanNo, not only that, I'm reading here that the new ICM news came out today and the top one was patients who use cannabis reduce their use in medication of pain, anxiety, migraine, and sleep disorders. And 1,500 patients that were polled across the USA, over three quarters indicated that, which is 76.7% indicated that they reduced their use of opioids. That's huge.

30:42Etienne FontanWell, the science is backing up what we've all anecdotally known and we have seen firsthand. It's just the science is, after them laughing at us for all these years saying, oh, you're high, they're just trying to say it so you can just get high. The science is actually backing it up with reality.

30:57BubblemanYou know, Dr. Bob said the perfect quote the other day. He wrote something down that was, it was in regards to a story and it was a miraculous story of someone, you know, shrinking their tumor or saving, you know, putting their disease into remission, whatever it was. And I just really read his quote, but it was like, you know, most of us that are, you know, deeply involved in the cannabis community here are no longer surprised by this.

31:19BubblemanLike that in itself is a sort of discovery when people, when there's a group of people that are like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like, of course you can do that. Of course, that's a possibility that apoptosis is real. We're pretty sure it's 100%. I think that's great.

31:37Etienne FontanAll right, Kevin's back.

31:39BubblemanFingers crossed, fingers crossed.

31:41Etienne FontanKev?

31:42SpeakerHow's that? Is that better? Can you hear me?

31:43Etienne FontanYeah, we can hear you. That sounded pretty good.

31:50Etienne FontanSo it sounds like it was a very successful conference because you had you pulled from a wide range of people for your conference. But of course, to have professional athletes then start to bring the focus beyond just the pain management, but start talking about focus and how it helps them. I mean, I know I've used cannabis for focusing on high stressful situations to help me pinpoint and come to problem solving situations.

32:13Etienne FontanSo it's interesting now to have it come out one in the media, much less of a high Elevated professional that is, you know, on the sports circuit, which everybody can understand and realizes how very difficult and challenging it is, one, to be in that position, but then to think that using cannabis then aids you in the ability to do better.

32:35SpeakerWell, us musicians have known that cannabis has been a performance enhancing drug for years, and I guess now the athletes have found out too.

32:45BubblemanAs well as us who just love music, love to listen to it. We also figured that out.

32:49Etienne FontanBut the freaks in the audience too. But doctor, I also remember when I go on stage, you know, when I play or even when I speak, you still have your anxieties, you still have your nervousness, but I also find I lose my high when I go on stage. I mean, I get high up to a point, but that whole high of being on stage and being in front of people is a whole other... That's why I smoke dabs while I'm on stage.

33:13ToddThere you go. Nothing blew my buzz faster than fucking getting totally stoned and then walking out on stage at Woodstock and seeing all those people feeling way straight all of a sudden.

33:25Etienne FontanMuch less seeing your face on that huge screen like that. That was fucking horrible.

33:31BubblemanHey, you know what though, Todd? Talk about joining a group of unique individuals who have walked out onto the stage at Woodstock way too fucking high, looked out at the people. I mean, that's a classic group of people, man. Like, I'm sure Jerry was on that list. I'm sure Jimmy was on that list.

33:48Etienne FontanBut you listen to what actually Santana did and realize how tripping he was. He couldn't even look at his guitar because he thought his guitar neck was a snake attacking him. That's how high he was.

34:00BubblemanSomeone was dosing everyone. I'm sure it was probably Alex.

34:03ToddNo, he was supposed to go on later supposedly and then they said he had to go on and he was like peaking. But obviously we all loved him peaking. His guitar sound while peaking was pretty amazing.

34:14BubblemanI appreciated it.

34:16ToddNo, it was cool. I was glad I got to do that. They were all really nice. And I couldn't have been the only one that walked out on that stage way too fucking high, no. No, no, you're in a waiting list. But it went way fast. No, it did.

34:28BubblemanAdrenaline. Well, go ahead.

34:30SpeakerYou get lost in a moment. You know, you get lost in a moment. And like Trey says, I love this, is the musician is just the hose, and you're just hosing the audience with all that energy. You're just, the water is flowing through you. The water is the music, and you're just a conduit, man. You're just letting that shit just flow and just sprinkle all out over the audience.

34:49SpeakerIt's a magical feeling, it really is.

34:51Etienne FontanTodd, you were on the stage at Woodstock?

35:12ToddYeah, I actually opened Woodstock 99 on Friday, and then I also, well, performed. I was in Spitfire on Saturday. I did a 20-minute set. I actually did a 40-minute set because Kennedy got booed offstage on Friday, and then I did a 20-minute on Saturday with Mickey Hart of The Grateful Dead, and I was also on that day with Kenneth Cole, or Kenneth Cole was Sunday.

35:35SpeakerJust to be clear, John, this is 1999, not 1969.

35:39ToddNot 1969, it was 99.

35:42SpeakerI was at Woodstock in 69 and I don't recall seeing you on the stage.

35:47ToddNo, no, it was 99. Actually, I was on the West Stage with a group called Spitfire and what we were doing was talking about different social issues. So Mickey Hart didn't play music when we were on stage together. He talked about... The devastation of destroying the last two percent of old growth redwood trees because he was introducing my friend Julia Butterfly who had at the time had been doing a tree sit for what lasted two years in a redwood tree protesting uh Hurwitz and uh destruction so we were all trying to bring different attention uh to different I was of course over there talking about the drug war and I made comparisons to how in 99 the group that was Woodstock was protesting the war thousands of miles away in Vietnam and now that war had socially moved on to the people that were Woodstock because Nixon waged a war on the voices against what he was doing and it was our drugs.

36:42ToddIt was the acid and the pot and the mushrooms that were illegal but the alcohol and the cigarettes, you know, shit. In 99 you had Budweiser sponsoring Woodstock. How fucked up is that culturally?

36:53Etienne FontanYeah, but they brought the place down too.

36:56ToddYeah, there was a lot of hangovers by Sunday. And, you know, hey, alcohol to me, It is what it is. We've all seen the ugly side of it, and I think a lot of us are really tired of it. I can't wait, honestly, in the future to see pot-only parties because we've seen a lot of alcohol-only events. It would be so nice to see cannabis-only events and to see the difference in the lack of violence.

37:20ToddI'm sure that there would be if it was just everybody on cannabinoids instead of boozed out.

37:24BubblemanDr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah. It's a big difference. You see someone with a black eye at an alcohol event, you're like, who punched you? You see someone with a black eye at a cannabis event, you're like, edible?

37:36ToddYeah, and technically anybody watching, if they go pick up the DVD version of Spitfire, and you'll see I'm actually on the DVD being interviewed about Spitfire, which I couldn't fucking believe it, because they had, you know, Rosie Perez, Mickey Hart, Michael Frani, all these great people, and they chose me to represent Spitfire on the Woodstock DVD. So I was like, there had to be a stoner in editing is what I thought.

37:59SpeakerRight. Wasn't the Emerald Cup exactly what you just asked about? Everybody there was high on cannabinoids?

38:07Etienne FontanThere were people, remember, there were people in the corrals, the alcohol corrals that were there, and they were full.

38:12ToddWhere you were, John, yes, where you were, where we found you in the medical section, yeah, we were all in a happy place. But over down by the food, there was a beer corral where all the beer drinkers were in a cage. And I don't describe, you know, look, I am not a prohibitionist. Thank you for watching.

38:43BubblemanI'll tell you one thing.

38:45SpeakerGo ahead, Andrew. I just missed the alcohol scene because I never find it. I've never drank in my life, and so somehow spirit doesn't lead me around to where the alcohol scene was, so I missed that while we were at the cup. Not that I was missing anything because it's nothing to miss, but I'm a little bit bummed to hear that there was an alcohol thing going on there.

39:04SpeakerI thought it was all hippies and hash and high and Oh, well, reality slaps you in the back of the head and says, are you paying attention?

39:15ToddWell, Sonoma County Fairgrounds is a cool place, and everybody there act reasonably. The Emerald Cup did not experience, to my knowledge, any fights or any violence. Maybe I'm wrong. We can have Tim Mondat talk to him about it, but I don't think the Emerald Cup, in my experience, has really been ever violent.

39:35SpeakerI hope it never is. Violence is an outmoded expression of human angst.

39:42Etienne FontanThe only violence there is the sifting going on.

39:47BubblemanThrashing.

39:48Johnny BThe violence happens inside my room when I'm taking down the plants.

39:52SpeakerWell, we were pretty violently mashing up that dabber.

39:58BubblemanHey, I think it's time for a dab, actually. Considering that it's Easter, let us all pull out our eggs.

40:04Johnny BOkay, I'm going to get my egg.

40:07BubblemanPull out your egg.

40:09Etienne FontanMine's a tad circular.

40:13BubblemanHey, that works. That works.

40:17ToddThat is not an egg, man. That's an egg. How dare you call that an egg? Did you paint your egg?

40:27Etienne FontanWith resin.

40:30Etienne FontanAnd that's the only way to paint an egg.

40:35SpeakerHey, folks, I got to jump. I got to catch a flight back home. We'll see you all next week. Have a great week.

40:40BubblemanThanks for coming out, Mark. Thanks, Todd.

40:45SpeakerListen to what Kevin's got to say. We had a great meeting, and he'll tell you all about it.

40:50BubblemanWe're looking forward to it, actually.

40:52Etienne FontanWell, that should lead us right back in.

40:55SpeakerKevin, get your mic going. So where did this all start? It started, as always, by consulting too many attorneys. We were asking attorneys how we could ship DNA and plant matter in the mail and all that stuff to do more testing and came back with some fairly confusing answers that made us think, well, how do we move the testing right to the grow instead of trying to move the materials to the testers?

41:21SpeakerAnd so what we did, let's see if I have one here, we came up with a little way to get about a whole, can you see that? That's the whole punch of the leaf to sit in the tube. And you boil it for a little bit and take a little of that DNA out and put it into another tube that will fit in one of these. I take it it's a low-level boil?

41:46SpeakerYeah, 95 degrees. So this little gizmo will, it's light, it gets to the TSA, they put one up on the space station, but it's basically a USB-driven PCR device where tubes like this.

41:59BubblemanThey put one up on the space station, did you say?

42:02SpeakerThey did. I really don't know what they're doing with it up there, but I think it's more for show.

42:08Etienne FontanInteresting. Other scientists are doing research all the time up there, so it wouldn't surprise me.

42:13SpeakerYeah, I think they're trying to look at molecular aging up there on telomeres. There's some suggestion that you may age differently in space, but we'll see.

42:23BubblemanYou've got to think that thing probably cost $170,000 U.S. to fly to space.

42:29SpeakerYou know, it's 650 bucks. I'm sure the flight ticket was a lot more. And fuel, yeah. So these things are really cheap. Getting them to space, I can't attest to. So is it something anyone can buy?

42:41Etienne FontanAny researcher or any individual?

42:42SpeakerYeah, they're selling these to high schools. There's a company called Amplius in Cambridge, Mass. It got started off with Kickstarter. And I think they probably have the whole thing now made in China. But we got a... These into the cannabis field and there's like a coupon code. If you get them through our site, you get some kind of discount. But what they allow you to do is to design assays that change color.

43:08SpeakerThis is something that we worked on. I don't know if you can see it. Can you see that? That's pink. Yep. And then that one's yellow. So if there's a target present after about 50 minutes, the sample will turn yellow. And you can take a picture with your phone. So in this case, this is a male-female test. So if you want to do male-female detection, it will just change color on you in about 50 minutes.

43:32SpeakerWe also built one for this

43:36SpeakerIt has a functional CBD allele in it. Now, that doesn't discern whether you're going to be a type 3 or type 2 plant. You just know you're not going to be a type 1. So type 1s make all THC. And type 2s and 3s, 2s are 50-50s, and they deviate a little bit from 50-50 sometimes. This test won't discern why at the moment. And then there's type 3s, which make all CBD.

43:58SpeakerSo if you've got a male and it has a CBD allele, some people may not want to huck it out. They want to maybe breed it. And they attempt there to get a color test on that. But the other thing we did in the last few months was we were all these powdery mildews we targeted that were on other species like grapes and other studied vegetables didn't seem to work.

44:22SpeakerWe aren't what's on cannabis, so we sequence the one that's on cannabis and design the target that will pick up powdery mildew sitting on cannabis as well. Now, powdery mildew is something that vascularizes into the plant, so it remains invisible for a good part of its life cycle until late in flowering and it rears its ugly head. So this is meant to pick it up before it becomes a problem.

44:42SpeakerWe're still figuring out whether we've got all the powdery mildews nailed. We sampled four locations in New England. There could be another species sitting out somewhere in California or other, you know, any other two climates.

44:54ToddYeah, yeah, so can I ask you this though, Kevin? You know, a lot of cannabis, you know, obviously it's both environmental and it carries through the tissue, but is there any solutions to it? I mean, we can determine, you know, powdery mildew with our freaking eyes. I mean, do you got a solution instead of a little machine that tells us what we know?

45:15SpeakerYeah, so the intent here is to pick it up before you know it's there. So early detections, you can eradicate it. So yeah, when it sprouts, you'll see sports everywhere and then it's too late. Then it's all under guard.

45:26ToddSo let's say you're a guy that goes to the club and buys a clone and you come home and you test it and it tests positive, it's carrying powdery mildew. Like most of the clones available in circulation are. What's your solution?

45:41SpeakerKill it. Get another one. Screen it out. I mean, there's powdery mildew resistant lines out there. And so this may help as a tool to...

45:52ToddYeah, no, practically speaking, what you're saying doesn't work because, you know, a lot of varieties, like let's say you want to grow sour diesel and you go down and all the clubs you go to, guess what? It's the same cutting of sour diesel moved around and around and around because that's how it, that's what's happening. So all of them will have it sitting there, you know, waiting to pop out and bloom.

46:14ToddAnd you can't go, you can't kill them or then you're not growing that plant. Now you're moving on to a whole other, you know, no more Jack Daniels number seven. Now you're making Seagram's, if you understand what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, you're saying you're afraid it's going to... No, I'm saying the plant is... So if you kill the plant, you may not be able to get another sour diesel cutting for the sake of compensation without that in it.

46:37ToddBecause if they are taking the plant and making cuttings of it to sell the cuttings, you're going to realize that if it's all sour diesel, they're all having the same problem. Yeah. If you get what I mean, because it is obviously in the genes waiting for the environmental situation to be perfect so it can go, I'm ruining your life.

46:59SpeakerYeah, so can you treat, I'm not as familiar on the treatment side of this, but what about sulfur and these other things that you can do?

47:05ToddWell, now that we're slowing the extracts, we don't want to do those things. I mean, back in the day, we used to use sulfur in vegetation time, and you still can, but if you use sulfur in your flowering garden post-week three, you're going to have the residual of sulfur in your flowers, and it's going to taste and smell like shit.

47:22Johnny BI'm going to say, Todd, like post-week three? You don't want to be burning salt for the first week or two of flour.

47:28ToddNo, you could though because you know there's no flours.

47:32Johnny BStill in the room.

47:35ToddYou don't see flours until week three.

47:37BubblemanI would only point out that even when you don't see flours, there are still glandular trichomes. Thank you very much. The leaves and the stems, and I personally stay away from sulfur. I'm of the Skunk Man Sam school. If I got to get rid of sour diesel, so be it. Get me a haze, get me something that's powdery mildew resistant or that's been bred, or if you love that sour diesel- Breed it out.

47:57BubblemanBreed it out, exactly. That's what I did. Breed it out. You can breed powdery mildew resistant cultivars. You just, you know, I mean.

48:07ToddIt's time and love. As soon as you breed, you're already stepped away from what it was that you had. As soon as you enter in genetics from another. Sure. That's how we got where we are today, Todd.

48:26BubblemanWith all the cultivars. So that's even how Sour Diesel came about and all these things.

48:33ToddBut I understand the uniqueness of a plant. You can't replicate something you have. So the way to get rid of it actually would be to take it down to tissue culture, right, Kevin? Because you can actually.

48:43Johnny BHere we go. Here's something I did, Todd. My medical strain used to have powdery mildew. And I did this back in January. This was back in 2007, 2008. I said I hardened the plant. I put it outside in January and protected the roots so when the roots wouldn't get cold, I put the plant outside and it was like minus two and stuff like that. I kept doing this for like a month.

49:02Johnny BAnd for some reason, it just worked. I kind of kept reading and working with that strain. I still have it today. Nine, ten years later, I still grow it. It's growing right now. And I don't get PM anymore. So I think working with the strain, if you truly love it, and that's just me just playing.

49:17ToddI don't think putting a variety outside.

49:19Johnny BI don't know if it worked. I just said something that I did. I'm not saying it's scientific or anything. But I mean, I just kept growing the strain until I was able to start realizing what humidity levels it needed to grow on, what temperatures it grew at, what days it took down. So it took me years to understand that strain until I actually didn't have powdery mildew.

49:39Johnny BMaybe it wasn't me putting it outside, but...

49:41ToddWell, can I ask Kevin a question then? And the question I have is, Kevin, how does powdery mildew use cannabis as a host when it's not blooming? How does it get into the tissue and how does it stick through it during veg time?

49:56SpeakerSo in other plants, they've shown that it goes to the stomata and it vascularizes into the epithelial tissue of the plant. And it's an obligate biotroph, meaning it needs the plant to replicate. You can't culture it on a petri film. We tried that. It's a mess. I don't know to what extent it gets into the seeds. We have a genetic test now. I assumed it would travel in clones because they show wonderful images of these mycelium networks inside the plant that have the DNA of the powdery mildew on it through all different types of plants.

50:30SpeakerI'm assuming the same thing is happening in cannabis. I don't know if it's ever going to make it into an embryo though. A lot of embryos have the capacity to concentrate other types of plant-based insecticides into the embryo to thwart this type of thing off just as a protection because the actual... Thank you for joining us.

51:08ToddI love your answers. We don't know. And everybody that's paying attention should do more research on it because we are learning so much. And as organic cannabis farmers, a lot of the solutions you're mentioning definitely would never be touched by people that are trying to keep things as intact as nature gave it to them.

51:25SpeakerSo what exactly does your test do? So we pick up DNA of the powdery mildew genome.

51:36SpeakerIt may not even be in bloom stage where you can see the spores. We've seen it in parts of leaves where there's no evidence of powdery mildew on it, but it was at 10 p.m. We've also sampled neighboring plants in rooms that were loaded with PM, but they seem resistant or clean, and they don't light up on the test. So is it in the stems? We still don't know.

51:57SpeakerIs it in the roots? We don't know. All we know is that we can get it on. We can clearly get a signal when... You cannot be used to anybody, but we're also picking it up when it's invisible on the leaf surface, but vascularized. So the hope is you... What if just spores land on a plant? Will that set off your test? So the spores have not penetrated the leaf, but they're laying on the surface from the air.

52:25SpeakerSo it should. I don't know how many is required yet, though. We haven't gone through and done that level of titration. But yeah, there's... It's harder to lyse than what gets vascularized into the cell. But we've sequenced the genome off the spores. The DNA is there.

52:44ToddWhat this test would do is if you were setting up a large scale cultivation facility, you could test to see if your plants you chose were prone to actually have PM. Because if it's systemic and if it's there, like Kevin's saying, you might want to start with a different plant for your project because you can see down the road you are going to have a train coming.

53:04ToddYou know, I mean, it's there.

53:08SpeakerI'm not suggesting we're picking up the powdery mildew resistance gene. That's a different thing that is worth studying, but we don't know what that is yet. Right now, we can just detect if it's present, which means we can screen the facility to make sure they don't have it and they're not bringing NPM. You can maybe screen just one mother.

53:31SpeakerI think it would be interesting to be able to test for resistance or susceptibility genes. That would be really valuable.

53:49SpeakerWell, if you look on vectors of transmission, it blames woolly aphids and other bugs which are able to penetrate the surface of the plant. And then either puke, crap, or whatever in the plant, leaving DNA in the plant might not make it appear like the spores are submicroscopic. It can't be seen even. So it might not make it look like they were part of the plant DNA, but not really.

54:22SpeakerYou can see them in this case. That white foam you see on the screen. A big, long stack of spores that are meant to break off. I've seen them. Yeah. And you can see them under a microscope, too. If you put them in identification, you can see them.

54:43SpeakerHey, welcome, Chimera. Is there any sampling around the country or other areas, like other geographic areas? Because I know you've shown that that PM species wasn't one that you had thought it was that McPartland had proposed it was. Right. No, so we haven't. That's what we need to do next is sample Oregon, high altitude, low altitude, everywhere else in the country. Wheat does have two different plumerias that infect it.

55:10SpeakerAnd so, I mean, it's a hexaploid genome. It might be different, but there's reason to believe if you can't go on that as well. Usually, these obligate biotrophs evolve to their host. So it's not surprising that it's different than what we saw on perhaps grapes.

55:27SpeakerAll of the large crops seem to have their own version of PM that's got a different genus and species to it.

55:33Etienne FontanWell, that's why they have Bectilis Subtilis or Serenade and things like that that are, you know, applied with Stilic oils and grapes. And that's what they've been using as a deterrent for white powdery mildew because it'll go dormant once the white powdery mildew goes by. But if the white powdery mildew comes back, they go back and just hit it with the Stilic. And supposedly reactivates the Bactylus subtilis, which eats the white powdery mildew.

56:01Etienne FontanSo you're basically biological.

56:04SpeakerThe Netherlands flower growers were using UBB. They would just walk among their plants and not even hold it on it for more than a minute or anything once a week. And it completely suppressed it.

56:19Johnny BI have one of those lights, the UBB lights.

56:21SpeakerNo, it's not UBB. It was UBC. Yeah, I think it might have been UVC. I think that's correct.

56:30SpeakerYeah, the idea behind those is they damage the DNA, so it effectively kills the organizm. I've seen the bacillus stuff to work well as well. But come through on your microbial tests, and PM won't. PM doesn't grow on auger, so... You're kind of adding in completely harmless, but it's probably going to trigger a microbial test later. There's also other pests that are called false mildew.

57:04Johnny BThere's also ways of being able to control the environment and really get out of mildew. I mean, that's probably the hardest thing, right? People can't control their rooms, and that's why 100 mildew is so hard to fight.

57:17SpeakerA combination of environment and resistant varieties is the key.

57:23BubblemanWell, and ideally don't have a giant grapevine that's literally covered in powdery mildew for like four months of the year over top of a walkthrough that you have to go to to get to your grove, Johnny B. Or the air. Yeah.

57:41SpeakerWell, it's kind of what Kevin's saying, and it is such actually host-specific pathogen, and that actually wouldn't be true, would it? Right? Because theoretically it would be a different powdery mildew that attacks the grapevine than it attacks cannabis. You constantly hear from... You constantly hear from people that they have high sources of mildew surrounding their grow and that's where they're getting it from. But you don't know if that's actually being caused by that or if it's merely a coincidence and they have extremely susceptible varieties and a bad environment and it expresses.

58:17BubblemanYeah, but I mean it's something to look at for sure.

58:22SpeakerIt could be in our, there are no grape vines in our neck of the woods. That may be why we didn't find gullivinomyces here.

58:35SpeakerMaybe that's why you don't see it in Afghanistan powdery mildew, because they don't grow very much grapes to make wine in Afghanistan. Hmm.

58:45Johnny BBrian, I'll work on getting one of the wine grape thing in the back.

58:49BubblemanI like your grape vine. Don't get me wrong, but I've never seen it. I love it. It's been there since like 1960. When I saw it covered in powdery mildew, like I couldn't believe that you had to walk under that to get to your grow room. And you have this beautiful grow room that you spend so much time and energy, and you have to walk through a powdery mildew grape vine, like literally 10 feet.

59:08BubblemanThe most powdery mildew I've ever seen.

59:10ToddI can't do that anymore.

59:11BubblemanWell, I love the grapevine, don't get me wrong, and I love the grow up.

59:14ToddYou know, that's pretty funny. Let's put a pollution filter right in front of my funnel. Fine, I'm putting it in a tunnel.

59:21SpeakerJohnny, fight back with them, Johnny. Tell them you put that grapevine there so you'd have a way to test all the different mildew controls.

59:30Johnny BYou know what, it's there so I can understand and educate you guys. I don't know what not to do. Well, when that really comes down to powdery mildew, controlling that environment is really key because when we don't have a controlled environment, we're able to see that powdery mildew flourish very quickly. If the humidity gets too high and you're not doing things properly, it's an easy thing to grow.

59:53Johnny BA lot of people get powdery mildew because they don't know how to control.

59:56Etienne FontanBut also realize where your air intake comes from. I've consulted and found them with a rose bush outside because rose bushes tend to be susceptible to white powdery mildew as well as other plants. I'm a firm believer in sealed rooms. But a thing I learned is mint and spearmint and peppermints are good things to plant around your air intakes because those are not susceptible to white powdery mildew.

1:00:24SpeakerYeah, well, under the Canadian system, you can only use a couple of things for powdery mildew. So I think, you know. Can you use UVC? Yeah, that's not, well, that's not regulated as a. That's what I was thinking. It's not a, but it's a lot of, dude, that's a lot of work. Yeah, that it is if you have a very large grow.

1:00:44ToddYeah. What is the hazards of using UVC in an indoor or a grown greenhouse?

1:00:49SpeakerThey are completely clothed, and they wear UVC goggles too.

1:00:54Johnny BYeah, my stuff comes with gloves. They were doing it from about the price.

1:00:58SpeakerYeah, I think there's probably more effective things to do. You were calling it styletic oil, ATN? You mean stylet oil?

1:01:09Etienne FontanYeah, it's a very fine oil, right, that they would apply with the Bactilis Subtilis. That's what they were doing industrially because I was looking at serenade and you could not get serenade but on industrial levels from the actual grape producers because I was seeing they had white powdery mildew and so I actually went and talked to a couple of the vintners and asked them about it and that's what they told me that they were utilizing was that serenade was the most effective and because Hitting it with the oil, it attacked the white powdery mildew until it was gone and then it went dormant.

1:01:44Etienne FontanAnd then if the white powdery mildew came back, they just would go back and hit it with the oil and it would reactivate the bacteria to eat the other bacteria. So it's biological.

1:01:54SpeakerI would quit the method of action, but that stylet oil is pretty incredible stuff. Is it safe to use during flowering or just veg? Well, it's a petroleum byproduct. It's white paraffin oil.

1:02:10ToddThat would rinse right off into your extract.

1:02:13SpeakerIt would be nice if we had scaled down here. Actually, I have some. I'm going to have it sent into the lab. Yeah, I've never used it. It's one of the few organic natural controls that I have zero experience with. Yeah, I would know. There's organic versions. There are not organic versions. But if it comes off petroleum distillate, like it's a byproduct of oil, I don't know how organic it is.

1:02:37SpeakerBut I think in the Canadian system, the equivalent product is that veg oil they're using. It's just a canola-based vegetable oil that they're spraying on the plants. And I think that that has a suffocating effect on the powdery mildew, not only on the spores, but the fruiting bodies. I mean, it really does wipe it out in veg plants. It's quite impressive. But, you know, having the conversation about it, I think we should also say that it was being used heavily in the regulated market in Colorado, and then it was pulled off, it was put on the ban list.

1:03:09SpeakerSo whether that was just because it hadn't gone through a registration process and testing for that crop, that could be, but they also might have had another reason for it. Also, too, everybody needs to remember, before the introduction of wide-leaf drug varieties, which are commonly called indicas, There was little to no powdery mildew. You didn't see it from the Mexican, Colombian, Thai plants. And it's still rare among tropical or equatorial varieties because if they do naturally mildew, then they have a significant less chance of survival.

1:03:45SpeakerWhereas in Afghanistan, it They don't need resistance. They don't have it so much. I have some preliminary info on it. I think there are specific secondary metabolites in the plant. That could also be true. You're way more likely to get powdery mildew. If they're not in there, Then, you know, there's probably other genetic markers too, something else inside the plant.

1:04:10Etienne FontanBut that could become a marker that you could look for that you could, you know, to weed out or, you know, find what you were looking for. Unless you like it.

1:04:18SpeakerYou can. Right. It causes other changes to flavor. So if you, it might be at least the one that I'm looking at that you can only have, the terpene, Thank you for joining us.

1:05:01ToddCan I ask a question then? Can you also take a plant that would test positive using Kevin's test, for instance, but then create an environment where the PM really can't bloom?

1:05:13SpeakerYeah, sure. If you have high enough light levels, high enough temperatures, and dry, things like that, and good airflow, makes it really hard for PM to express itself.

1:05:26ToddCan I ask you guys this, if anyone knows anything about this, because I was hanging out with this guy, Eric, from Forever Flowering Greenhouses, and he It's a fantastic source of information. I should ask him to come on actually now that I think about it. But he was saying that a lot of the greenhouse panels that were made blocked UV and a lot of the growers that were using them were having problems with pottery mildew, you know, in the same exact genetic, same exact plant could be outside of the greenhouse under the sun in this and not getting PM, but the plant that's 10 feet in behind the wall.

1:05:59ToddThank you so much for joining us.

1:06:16Speakerare built with a UV transmittent plastic rather than glass, which stops almost all UV. And what they found that it also improves terpenes and flavors and smells on like berries and fruit.

1:06:37ToddOkay, so then I have a right to be confused because like everyone else, when I saw that it said blocks UV, it was supposed to be good. Sunglasses, greenhouses, but now we're learning that the UV, at least in the plants, is helpful.

1:06:50SpeakerGreenhouses were traditionally made out of glass, Todd, and glass stops UV.

1:06:55Johnny BWe also got to look at when PM also occurs. It's normally in the fall when temperatures are changing and humidity levels are changing. Like in your grow room, that's always the last week or two of flower where people come down with the problems where they can't fight it, so they can't get down early. I work at a grow store, so I hear this all the time. Growers come in and, I got seven days left.

1:07:15Johnny BI'm starting to get PM. What do I do? So, I mean, like Sam was saying, I mean, it's a mold environment. I mean, that's pretty much all you can try and do at that point. Spraying anything on your plant in the last week of flower is completely ridiculous. They're just kind of destroying your medicine right away. So, I mean, what stages and what can people do? I mean, can you trim it out?

1:07:37Johnny BI know people are talking in chat about high alkaline water.

1:07:40Etienne FontanSpraying with high alkaline water. I've also heard of keeping your room below 35% humidity as well, if possible. If, if, if you look at the good flowering.

1:07:50Johnny BOkay, I have somebody from QuestDHU about this. If you keep your humidity below 35 and your temperature is like going outside in the fall and you breathe, the humidity can't dissipate so it sticks on the plant. So don't go below 39 or 38% humidity. The guy told me from QuestDHU, I had a really good chat to him about this. So do not go that low humidity. I was causing PM.

1:08:12Johnny BThat's what I really realized. I was dropping it down to 30% humidity, dropping my temperatures down. So this is one thing I was trying to understand. I mean, does anybody else kind of like confirm? And this is what they told me from Quest Emitifiers, the owners down there. He taught me really about RH, rotating me in the air and temperature. Like you said, in the fall, you breathe, it falls.

1:08:32Johnny BIt sticks on the plant.

1:08:33BubblemanIt's not... Hey, John. John, sorry to interrupt. Do you have music playing? Can you please turn it off because if it's copyrighted music, I'm not going to be able to post this on YouTube. So just specifically don't listen to music when you're on Hash Church, everyone. Obviously it's quick. I think it happened to Subcool recently and it was funny because he had Mendo Dope, the band, his buddies from Humboldt, and they came on and they played one of their songs.

1:08:59BubblemanAnd I guess their songs are copyrighted and it shut his video down from it.

1:09:04Johnny BHow's that? I apologize. Someone turned up the radio.

1:09:07BubblemanI can hear the radio, so if they just turn it off, that would be great.

1:09:11Johnny BOkay.

1:09:12BubblemanYeah.

1:09:12Etienne FontanYeah, it gives a feedback.

1:09:14BubblemanYeah, and I mean, honestly, I can deal with the sound of it. It's the copyright infringement that I'm more worried about because the Hash Church episode will get flagged. And so we got to make sure we keep that down. Sorry about that to cut you off there, Johnny B, but we got to know that we can't have radios playing in the background of Hash Church.

1:09:34SpeakerKevin, I wonder if you can tell us a little bit more about the sequencing of the PM variety. How did you do it? Did you take it off of plants or did you actually isolate it spores and then sequence the spores? So we screwed it up several times. The first time we did it, we did a hole punch and we ended up with more cannabis DNA than powdery mildew.

1:09:55SpeakerThen we tried to print it onto a Petri film. And see if it would grab root, and it didn't. We grew other things, and we sequenced those genomes by mistake. Then we came up with a method of just getting the spores off the surface by putting the leaf in water and ripping it off quickly, and then centrifuging those spores and then sequencing those spores. So it's not a clean genome.

1:10:19SpeakerWhen you read about these things, they're usually about 160 million bases in size and 90% repetitive. So it doesn't assemble beautifully, but we get enough fragments of DNA on the genome to be able to target a few PCR assays for it that look unique.

1:10:34ToddCan I suggest something, Kevin? Yeah, sure. An old-school way of cleaning up buds were to take hydrogen peroxide in a bath of water and just putting the buds in and letting them soak. And when you would do that, you'd get... So like 0.3% or something of hydroperoxide? And you would get this film on the top of the water and it would look like it was rinsing off the PM.

1:10:59ToddSo everything at the top, I mean, you're only using hydrogen peroxide and you know what that is. So if all that's left is water and hydrogen peroxide, what would you have other than the PM? Because that's what that white film is, I assume.

1:11:11SpeakerSo it might, I have to check if hydrogen peroxide will crack the spores. It probably won't, but it might. The reason we like having the spores is they do tend to float on the surface and you can spin them down. So when you get them off, you can get them concentrated so you can get enough DNA. If you strip it off and you melt those spores, the DNA will kind of be in the entire solution.

1:11:32SpeakerThen you've got to capture the DNA out of a bigger volume, but it might work. I haven't actually played with that. Most of the spore collection we did was remote, so we kind of had a MacGyver something in someone's grow to get the spores home. But as best we can tell, spores can go in the mail. They don't carry anything detectable. It's cannabinoid on them. And the film that you might be spotting is Drugstore Hydrogen Peroxide is far from pure.

1:12:00SpeakerIt's nowhere near it. It has other stuff in it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that could contaminate the sequencing. There's other bugs present there.

1:12:08ToddWell, you know, I was talking to Rosenthal one day here in the Bay. We have it really bad. And he was saying that a crop was moved into the South Bay area. And I'm not sure which one it was. But once that was introduced to the area, a lot of the farmers in this bowl, because we're in a valley, if you will, between two mountain sets. And he basically said that it being in the atmosphere contaminated the area where it didn't have otherwise powdery mildew before.

1:12:35ToddOnce that crop was introduced to the area, it did.

1:12:39SpeakerYeah, so some questions are, how long is it in the plant undetectable? Does it sit dormant from the clone all the way to its mature growth? I suspect it is. I would have plants, and I would grow them over the winter in the ground, so they got like, you know, 10 whatever feet tall, and even taller. And every winter, when the light levels were low, the temperatures were low, and I would see certain plants would get milled out.

1:13:12SpeakerAnd then as soon as the light levels raised and the temperatures were better, and I made new clones from it, the new clones that I was making had to have milled out inside of it. And they didn't express it at all until real, real late in the season again. And these plants were veg. They were not flowering because normally you see mildew gets worse and worse and worse as the plant flowers, which makes it all that much more difficult to control also.

1:13:50ToddIn my word experience, though, you could take the same cutting and putting it in two different environments. And in one environment, it will. And in the other environment, it won't show PM. And so I have always thought that a lot of it was environmentally what it was just environmentally sensitive. And I've always assumed that all the varieties of cuttings that are in general population are inherently have it.

1:14:17ToddBecause all it needs to do in the mother plant is pick it up. Then I got to ask you this, in a sense, Sam or Kevin, or can you outgrow it? Can I take a mother plant that's growing rapidly and will her cuttings not have that in it? Will it only be found in older parts of the plant?

1:14:39SpeakerYeah, I don't know the answer to that.

1:14:41Johnny BWe now have the tools to look, but... I can, I don't know, I've been using my strain for a long time and it had powdery mildew back in 2007, 2008. I'm growing it in 2018 and it's doing fine. So, and I'm being working four clones off of that mother plant now, five actually. So I've taken five cuts from that plant since some seed when it first initially had PM.

1:15:04Johnny BSo, I mean, I can say that I think with proper understanding of the plant, me personally, and understanding how to grow that plant, It's temperatures and humidity levels. I've actually come to a point now where I'm not concerned about getting PM anymore. I don't spray my plants at all.

1:15:19ToddRight. But John, aside from like that, in a sense, you can, if I'm correct, Sam, you can actually outpace a disease in a plant and take cuttings from the top of the plant and not... Yeah, if you're taking tiny meristem cuttings, micro meristem cuttings, you can outgrow even viral diseases if it's done properly. Can, okay, so then my question would be, is we don't know, obviously we're in, this is a whole thing of uncertainty, we don't know how fast this virus can creep up the plant and how much of that virus is going to be kicked out.

1:15:54ToddOr the powdery mildew, well, it's, how is it? It's like a, you know. It's a large fungus. It's going to go away in our airplane that we want to kick out, right? I mean, whatever metaphor you'd like to use, it's an alien virus. And my cannabis plant, right? And it's systemic. So my question is, Kevin, does it grow up the stem and just stay at the tip of the plant?

1:16:17ToddOr is it lagging behind? Because then we would only have to make cuttings, throw away the mothers, the hosts, and then the cuttings would not be as prone to. And that's what I think might have happened with you, John. You may have been cut, cut, cutting. And cut beyond the point that actually happened.

1:16:33Johnny BThat's probably what happened. As I'm listening to Sam talk, what you guys are talking about, I know how I worked with this plant. And I remember taking that couple cuts at the top or something like that there back in 2009. This is when I put it outside, when I put that main mother outside in January. Because I didn't want to lose it. It was my medicine. It helped me so much.

1:16:51Johnny BJust like the Haley's Comet. These are two strains that work so well for me. So it was kind of like, what can I do? And I was just trying and learning and had no idea.

1:17:00SpeakerIt might have helped you, John, but as far as I know, it doesn't transmit itself systemically through the plant. Spores hit it. It becomes infected. It's not always expressing itself fully. It might be inside the plant, but it's not systemically spreading. Is that correct, Kevin? Kind of like cancer. So the papers I've seen, I'm going to try and dig one up and put them in the chat.

1:17:27SpeakerI have them linked on our medicinal genomics site. But the papers I've seen about it suggests it infects through the stomata, which are like the holes in the leaves that the plant breathes through. And it gets in from the leaves and then vascularizes through the leaves. So it may get to the stems and the roots last, is my guess. But again, very little has been studied in actual cannabis.

1:17:49SpeakerEverything we're looking at is making assumptions from one plant into this one.

1:17:53ToddWell, can I say something that's crazy then? Sam, what do you think of this? Because I've gotten varieties that have had PM in my first run of getting the cuttings. And then the way that I take care of my mother plants, I end up not getting PM in the same cuttings later on. And now I'm thinking it's just in the way that they're growing. Because if the mother plants are growing really fast.

1:18:13SpeakerIt's probably a combination. Is the plant susceptible? And what are the growing conditions?

1:18:21ToddHmm, right. I think a healthy garden might be the cure to many of the diseases because unless the diseases are growing rapidly with the cannabis plant, if we kept our mother plants healthy and we kept our cuttings coming up, we could outpace a lot of them. We could correct problems that are otherwise in the cuttings that we purchase at the local dispensary.

1:18:43Johnny BSo when I had PM in 2008 with a plant, I had one little room and it was shittily growing, no real venting, nothing, moving around garages, stuff like that, to where now I have a proper facility that I've worked on because it's my medicine, I'm licensed for it. And I have the proper, like I said, environment control in order to make sure I don't get powdery mildew.

1:19:01Johnny BAnd that's one thing I've really, it's the environment control is really, really key. And the understanding of when to take cuts, like you said, and what Sam was saying is all these great, great things we've all learned about.

1:19:12SpeakerIf Kevin was to analyze roots separately from stems, separately from leaves, I wouldn't be surprised if powdery mildew is not systemic down to the roots. Is it found in the roots?

1:19:32SpeakerWe haven't checked, and that's a really good idea. We should go do that. Yeah, we need to go and look at that. We've often just gone to other grows and tried to harvest spores but never got in there saying, give us your root, man.

1:19:44ToddWell, then, you know, the other thing is, Kevin, I'm wondering if it can be picked up because we, you know, now that there's such a big demand for soil, from the 90s to present, it seems like this quality of soil that we could buy as a gardener has gone down. And to me, it's because demand has gone up. And I just wonder if there can be things present that once the plant grows, gets roots, could well be picking up the PM from the areas that have it because a lot of the soils we use are coming from Northern California.

1:20:15Johnny BI'll send you a piece of my grapevine roots. I'll dig it out for you. It's got PM. We all know that. Mark's talked about it for years. I'll send you it. Please. Maybe we can figure that out.

1:20:26SpeakerI know it's got PM.

1:20:30SpeakerWe'll check the DNA on that. I think that's the next step.

1:20:37Johnny BGive me an address.

1:20:42Johnny BAnd I can legally send a great route to you. So it's like even better. So you know what? This is a good little thing. So definitely dig up some routes.

1:20:52SpeakerAs long as your DHL package doesn't go through Saudi Arabia.

1:20:57BubblemanHuh. Seriously, I've been quiet because I'm looking through my macro photographs, trying to find a really good macro photograph. of powdery mildew. And let me tell you, if I find it, it is some nasty looking shit.

1:21:11Johnny BIt's just like, dude, if you look in last September, I think you were taking pictures. I remember we looking at that. So look at the September, around September when you're looking at it might be the year before because I know yours is dated by months.

1:21:25SpeakerI've seen entire plants, six, seven feet tall, so covered with white powdery mildew on all the leaves, all the stems, It never really made it to all the flowers because I killed the damn thing.

1:21:39BubblemanOh, shit. Yeah, that's pretty much what you do. That's like, how do you even get rid of such a thing? My God.

1:21:47SpeakerYou get a plastic bag and you place it on top of it and you try to cut it in such a manner that little or no spores can fall out. Wow.

1:22:00Johnny BBasically no spores. That sounds like a good trick. I've had plants in my room that had PM. I've really just put a bag right over top of the whole bag, cut it, and then take it out that way just because that one plant in the corner had PM.

1:22:13SpeakerYeah, that's right. Put a link. As a cannabis breeder, your favorite thing to do is to kill cannabis plants that are not what you want.

1:22:27Johnny BThey always show themselves quite early, too.

1:22:31SpeakerI threw a link up there on the screen. Hopefully it's screen sharing. Let me see. Is that going? There you go. Yes, we can see it. We can see it. That's a stain of the network that it makes inside the leaf structure. So these little congenital spores land on the cell, somehow leak into the stomata and start growing a network inside the leaves. And there's a link to a paper that kind of walks through all this.

1:23:00SpeakerAnd when it's fruiting on top of the leaf, it's coming from that network like mycelium type process? Yes. At the last stage, you'll see it starts to bridge these little towers of like chained up conidio spores, which then spread to other plants. If one spore lands on a plant, how big can it spread? Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question as to how many spores it takes to infect and how many we can actually detect.

1:23:32SpeakerI think when the network gets this big, it's easy to pick up. We pick it up quite readily because there's a lot of DNA in a network like that. But we've not looked in the roots or in the stems. It may not get that far. I'm wondering if one spore lands, how big of a network can it build under inside the leaf? Just one single spore. You know, it says on WikiLeaks, or it says on the Wiki about this particular stuff that it most likely and almost always appears on the bottom leaves first.

1:24:07Etienne FontanOnce you see it, it's already too late. It's well infected by the time you see the spores.

1:24:13ToddSo we don't know. We don't know how far up the planet goes. And if that's the case, what Andrew's saying is true. It could well be coming in from the organic stuff we're using. It could be a host in our soil. Because I was, I will be honest, I got it less when I used all rock wool. So Kevin, is it possible?

1:24:31SpeakerBottom leaves are also shaded more.

1:24:33Etienne FontanIs it possible then to test on different parts of the leaves and have white pottery mildew in one area but not in the other? And that's a problem with the test if it only shows up on the lower and you test a higher end and it's actually on the lower? Or would it show up systemically throughout the entire plant once infected?

1:24:49SpeakerWe've not done enough sampling to nail that, but when we do a hole punch, let me see if I can find one of these things. When we do a hole punch, it goes right through the whole leaf. So we survey DNA from both the top and the bottom of the plant. This is what one of these things looks like.

1:25:03Etienne FontanIt has a little... So you asked for that representative sample of a top and a bottom leaf.

1:25:08SpeakerYeah, it goes right through the whole leaf. And it gets a four millimeter biopsy that you can then punch into a well like this once you get it. And so there's a remaining question as to how frequently do you have to sample to 100% pick it up in every plant? That's a good question. We've just been punching... We've seen powdery mildew on the plant. We've punched where it's visible.

1:25:28SpeakerAnd then we've also punched other leaves on the plant. We can pick it up in the other leaves. So there's more to be done to know whether Thank you so much for joining us.

1:25:57Etienne FontanThat's just hearsay and conjecture currently. There's no science.

1:26:00SpeakerI think there's, no, I've read that places as well, but I think what Chimera was saying is important that certain chemotypes might have a different tolerance window, right? They may be, if they're putting out terpenylene or something else that this thing doesn't like, maybe that makes it so it's more tolerant to wetter conditions or different environments.

1:26:18Etienne FontanWell, we had this problem heavily in the Bay Area because, again, we have more microclimates here in the Bay Area than almost anywhere in the world, and so we asked the ICRS because we were finding, Thank you for joining us.

1:26:52SpeakerHundreds of different populations from hundreds of different countries and absolutely this is true. I've even had equatorial plants completely surrounded by dozens of indica plants that had pretty much every one of them powdery mildew to some degree. And still the one in the middle got nothing. Well, listen, isn't this powdery mildew operates by the same modus operandi that all fungi does? And it tries, it's a systemic thing only in that it can, how much of the plant it can reach through the system subsurface and the leaves and are how many spores it can generate to allow to own leaves up above it.

1:27:43SpeakerSo that's why it grows from the bottom. All right, that's why it's most often seen from the bottom. But since it's operating under the same modus operandi as most Fungi. Then it seems clear that stress, either too high or too low, is going to make this thing kick in and start expressing itself. So there must be a medium line somewhere where it won't cause it to express or where spores won't germinate as readily because... That, of course, would help, Indra, but what you really want is varieties that just don't ever get it, no matter what the fuck you do to them.

1:28:28SpeakerYeah, that'd be nice.

1:28:29ToddYeah, but is that possible when it's such an environmentally prevalent problem in some areas? I mean, some areas you can grow it and never see it. I mean, Southern California.

1:28:39SpeakerAbsolutely, it is possible. If you think about it, powdery mildew was not a problem in cannabis before. In California, until after the introduction of wide-leaf drug varieties. Before that, it was little or unknown.

1:28:56ToddI want to say this, though, but what if you want the effects of those wide-leaf drug varieties? And, you know, this is one of the hurdles you have to overcome, right? Say that again.

1:29:07SpeakerI said, groove with your mill dow, brubba.

1:29:11ToddWell, there has to be a solution is what I'm saying. I mean, you know, a lot of people like their thick afghans and their heavy indicators. I like OG Kush, even though it has a tendency to want to get PM. I mean, I would like to see plants be able to either, you either be able to outgrow the disease because you thoughtfully know what you're doing. And unfortunately, science doesn't.

1:29:35ToddAnd as much as I love you coming on and talking about this test, it shows us we know shit about I bet you if we would ask the grape growers and some of the other industries that have rose growers, I bet you anything, they already know the answers. We just don't with cannabis.

1:30:09BubblemanYeah, I think you're pretty much on point with that.

1:30:11ToddWell, let's make some wine friends.

1:30:15SpeakerWell, once again, if you look on Wiki, you'll find out that there's about 40 or 50 different kinds of powdery mildew, and many of them are systemic to various plants that they grow on. And when I looked on the Wiki thing, I didn't see the particular one that's systemic to pot, but I did see about 65 or 70 other powdery mildew.

1:30:37Johnny BSkunk cabbage gets powdery mildew. I remember that as a kid in the valleys growing up in Anwar, the skunk cabbage had big powdery mildew on it at the end, like... September, October.

1:30:46ToddHey, Sam. Yes? Is it possible to get Rob's co-author of Cannabis on the show? He's only, you know, what, botany teacher at University of Hawaii? I think he might be.

1:31:00SpeakerI have no idea. Rob would know much better than me. So their book does point out two other species that might be on Cannabis. One's named El Torca. One's named P. macularis. And we did design assays looking for those and just didn't see them in the New England ones. They could be in Amsterdam. They could be in other places. So yeah, I don't think it's settled as to whether it's one species or two.

1:31:23SpeakerAnd what does Dr. McPartland say on the subject? He was, I thought, authored on that same paper, but I haven't heard from him lately as to what else it might be. The weird thing is, if you get a powdery mildew encyclopedia, they do exist, every single artistic rendering of powdery mildew from species to species visually looks the same. But from a DNA standpoint, they're different. And this is, it's kind of like, you know, butterflies and... We see powdery mildew much more, but I occasionally have seen downy mildew on cannabis also.

1:31:59SpeakerYeah, and that's probably another beast altogether. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the visual looks are hard to run off of with genetics. We've seen it in other species. There's just different life cycles of certain species where it's hard for you to ID them visually. You have to really go down to the sequencing to distinguish them.

1:32:22BubblemanCaught me with my pants down. I was just about to load a dab and now I'm like trying to unmute the mic. I'm like, oh no, I don't want Cuban to cringe.

1:32:30Johnny BI was googling powdery mildew encyclopedia for everybody actually.

1:32:36SpeakerNo, we only want to know about the ones that affect us. We don't care about all the other powdery mildews, do we?

1:32:45Johnny BWell, if it affects us, yes, but no, as long as it doesn't touch our cannabis.

1:32:50Etienne FontanWell, we need to isolate the ones because it definitely tends to be prevalent from San Diego all the way to Vancouver. So these spores are everywhere. I know that we're breathing them currently. They're kind of endemic throughout the entire West Coast currently that I'm aware of, but I've also seen it creep up in Colorado and other places.

1:33:12SpeakerThey always were, but like it said, how many different species are there? Hundreds? So just to say mildew is constantly in the environment or air or anything is meaningless because we only care about two or three species as far as I know.

1:33:29Etienne FontanAnd have we isolated what those are? I mean, we have those ones from the McPartland and Rob's book, but I mean, we don't know if there are others out there that, and what those are until we actually have representative samples all the way across, correct?

1:33:45SpeakerI think it's likely we do know because researchers around the world have been identifying this on industrial hemp for years. All the reports out of Italy, Russia, France, all the really big China, the big hemp producers, they have problems and they described them, they identified them and they're pretty well known.

1:34:06Etienne FontanAnd I am correct, the biggest problem of course besides the spore is that it actually covers the plant so that they cannot have the actual natural transpiration happen on the plant, it smothers the plant.

1:34:19SpeakerIf it gets bad enough, yes, and like was mentioned earlier, it can be spread by flying insects.

1:34:29Etienne FontanAs in on their legs, et cetera, et cetera. Correct.

1:34:32SpeakerSo one thing that would help for those out there listening is if you have powdery mildew resistant strains, we should be sequencing 100 strains that are resistant and 100 that aren't. And then we can zero in on the loci that might be the genetic predictor of resistance. And then that makes it much easier to breed. You can start breeding a little bit more intelligently if you know what you're trying to cross.

1:34:57Etienne FontanSo how and where would we start that type of, i.e., not only discussion, but people want to say there's thousands of people who are watching this show right now, you know, or will watch this over the coming week. You know, what can they do to actually do that? Do they actually have this task? Yeah, I can give you an example.

1:35:14SpeakerLet's say you've got either a greenhouse or under lights operation where you constantly have milled out problems. That's the perfect laboratory. Yet there's one variety clone which no matter what you've done to it, no matter how horrible you've treated it, it's never expressed mildew ever. That's a good one for the other one. The other one is every time you grow it, it tries to do mildew and you have to be perfect to avoid it.

1:35:49SpeakerAnd as many of those two populations as you can get would answer Kevin's requirement. Yeah, so we've got protocols we're putting together to help people get us spores from these things. So we don't have to put anything in the mail. And we can at least survey if there's other species out there. And then we've got methods for people to actually get DNA to us. So they have just a whole punch of the plant.

1:36:12SpeakerWe can get the whole genome off the whole punch of a plant. And if we get DNA from that, we should be able to do whole genome shotguns and screen these things for markers that might be resistant or non-resistant. And so people understand they're not going to be able to resurrect your variety from this hole punch and the DNA that they look at. They're not going to be able to create an exact copy of it from some box or machine that We're happy to sign any confidentiality if folks need that.

1:36:45SpeakerWhether you want it private or public we'll accommodate either.

1:37:09Etienne FontanI mean, it's an incredible database that's definitely going to be needed because people will want that. I mean, including people like myself or, you know, distributors.

1:37:17Johnny BEverybody wants it.

1:37:19Etienne FontanYeah, everybody wants it.

1:37:19SpeakerEverybody wants access. I guarantee you that the big flower growers in the Netherlands and other countries, they don't use varieties which are super milled down susceptible and they have to constantly spray, especially if they're organic growers. They can't. So what they do is they gravitate towards varieties which are more resistant. And every marker we can eventually zero in on that predicts something about the plant, we can distill it back into something a little field-based detection device can find.

1:37:55SpeakerSo if we find the marker for powdery mildew resistance, that could just as readily be one of those yellow-pink assays for male versus female. We're just looking for the presence of a particular DNA marker, and it'll turn yellow if it's there or not. There will be resistance and there will be other things too, as Chimera was talking about. Very likely certain phenotypes of cannabis are more resistant and more resistant, or more susceptible, excuse me.

1:38:25Etienne FontanAnd that's a key advertising I could see for seed companies into when they get to breeding and starting to create these and, you know, white mildew resistant strains I could see being very attractive to the consumer as well as to them as well.

1:38:40SpeakerThey already sell them for melons and strawberries Uh, strawberries and, uh, I'm trying to think of the other crops.

1:38:49Etienne FontanI've seen those that have actually said so. So to actually see cannabis ones, it would be the next step for us in cannabis, you know?

1:39:04SpeakerI guess it's time for a bomb rib.

1:39:07BubblemanI feel that. I feel that. It's been an interesting conversation. We've got 700 people watching live and quite a few people in the chat talking about the conversation. PM resistant would be a good marketing claim, real rasher. And I'm definitely still for now. I also agree with Todd. We have a lot to learn. And that's why I sit in the school of Skunk Man Sam of grow PM resistant cultivars.

1:39:34BubblemanWhile everyone's learning, they can learn with their PM. I just don't want PM. I fucking hate PM. I just kill my crop. If I get PM, I just I'm like, goodbye, whole crop. See you later. I just, I don't like it.

1:39:49SpeakerThat shit is- And have you seen varieties that have never, ever gotten PM, even though it's been grown many, many times under many different conditions?

1:39:58BubblemanI've seen the narrow leaf drug cultivars, the tallest plant in the room, be near plants that have not only mildew, but also the little thrips and not have either of it. Thank you for joining us.

1:40:33BubblemanYou know, potentially while simultaneously repelling certain insects and animals, potentially also attracting humans. I mean, they attract me. I can't deny it.

1:40:44SpeakerI got to run, folks. I got people arriving here for a little holiday event. But anyway, my email is on the chat if anyone wants to continue PM discussions. Thanks for the time, Marcus. Absolutely.

1:40:58Johnny BSam, I'll send you some words.

1:41:00Etienne FontanSam, you've grown mass varieties of these. Thanks a lot, Kevin, for coming by. You've grown a lot of these varieties. So what are strains or varietals that are out there that people can look for that are milk resistant?

1:41:13SpeakerThe least mildew susceptible plants are equatorial, tropical, narrow leaf drug varieties. Strongly in that direction. The more north you go and also the more

1:41:38SpeakerLike in Afghanistan where you've got really wide leaf ones that are really bred for hashish production and resin production. Those ones are grown under conditions where they don't need mildew resistance because it's not commonly found there. It's cold and dry, right?

1:41:57BubblemanWhich is kind of a red flag for almost a guarantee that if you take that cultivar out of that environment and put it in one that, say, has high humidity and mildew and molds.

1:42:09SpeakerI've grown thousands of Afghan seeds. And let me tell you, the vast majority of them Thank you for watching.

1:42:35Johnny BAnd then one girl where we actually had on one side of the room, you can run right down the middle of this side had PMs, this side didn't. One side was one we called Isaac and it's more of an indica based variety. And the other side was more of a satin base. It was a narrow leaf. It was a grapefruit type cross. This was years ago, but I'll never forget that.

1:42:52Johnny BYou can almost draw a line down the room. This side had PMs, this side didn't. So strain is really a key.

1:42:59SpeakerI've seen PM not only on the leaves, but completely covering all the stems also.

1:43:06Etienne FontanYeah, I have two.

1:43:08BubblemanBut it sounds like you guys have cultivated a fair amount of PM in your careers. We're professionals. Oh, man, dude.

1:43:16Etienne FontanWell, I used to consult in gardens, and you go in gardens, and you can walk right in, and I've walked into spider mite factories. I've walked into, you know, yeah, I've seen some ugly shit that you thought you would only see in books, but you're like, holy shit, did you not read a book?

1:43:32SpeakerThe worst nightmares I've seen were Botrytis. On every plant.

1:43:39BubblemanTerrible. Terrible. Hurts the soul, really.

1:43:42Johnny BI've seen cobwebs going from plants to plants.

1:43:48Etienne FontanThe other problem here in the Bay was having, you know, colas that grow so dense that you grow and you harvest them. And then when you crack them open, they're cored with, you know, you know, mildew because it's just can't breathe inside there. So dense.

1:44:03BubblemanOr even black mold, just like the plant deteriorating and eating itself from the inside.

1:44:08SpeakerWe used to see that a bit with people. They would have caterpillars and you couldn't really hardly see the damage from the outside until it started to change colors. But they would go in a circle right up and leave behind caterpillar shit.

1:44:25Etienne FontanIn the Central Valley, people have been having over the past couple of years, the sudden oak death has caused problems, which causes a mealiness to the stock, which causes no transfer from the roots up into the upper part of the plant. I've heard of multiple gardens in the Central Valley just full collapsing.

1:44:48SpeakerWhat was actually causing them to collapse?

1:44:51Etienne FontanIt's a sudden oak death. It's a problem that they have with oak trees here in California. I've seen it over to cannabis.

1:45:00SpeakerI've seen moths that laid caterpillars eggs and then the caterpillars would dig a hole inside of the stem and they would Live inside there and then the branch would break and fall over.

1:45:18Etienne FontanI have the ones when I grew in Southern California, I had, there was a type of moth where, yeah, it actually lands on the lower part of the plant.

1:45:25SpeakerI think it might have been the army worm or African.

1:45:28Etienne FontanIt gets right and it hugs right close to the stem. And I was sitting there watching, it was a jack rare plant. And I watched this bud shake and I'm like, why is my bud shaking? And all of a sudden, pop, out's the caterpillar. It had literally cored all up the, Thank you. But you learned and that was the best part.

1:46:04Etienne FontanWell, that's the thing about plants, and that's what I learned from, I started to learn from a bonsai teacher who was 90-something years old, and he said, you're not going to learn anything until you kill your first hundred plants, and it will take you seven years to master each tree. And I was like, hmm. And it made a lot of sense, because, you know, you have to not only take care of it when it's well, you have to learn when it's...

1:46:26SpeakerI've been hired by the bonsai plants themselves, and they want to set themselves free from their masters, and they've paid me big bucks to do so. I thought they had a short attention span.

1:46:44Etienne FontanSorry, bonsai joke.

1:46:46BubblemanHey, what about duds, stem nematodes, fusarium? What do we know?

1:46:54SpeakerAgainst what?

1:46:56BubblemanDo you know about the stem nematodes?

1:46:59SpeakerFusari? Absolutely, but what you're doing is you're using beneficial nematodes against different organizms that might be in the stem. I don't think there's stem nematodes.

1:47:14ToddCan thrips, things like thrips, cause powdery mildew to... Yes. And how does that happen? Can you explain how that happens?

1:47:25Etienne FontanWell, wouldn't it be because of the procurement burn when they actually put their procurements on the insect, goes into the soil, opens it up, and it actually leaves an open wound. So it would be an easy accident.

1:47:34SpeakerI've seen photographs of white flies, thrips.

1:47:41SpeakerWhat's the thing you just said?

1:47:44Etienne FontanThe procurement, which is the actual, most insects, that's how they actually pierce the cell.

1:47:49SpeakerWell, I've seen many pests with close-up photographs that carried various spores and organizms from plant to plant is the bottom line. If you really, you want to get rid of pests.

1:48:04Johnny BUse pests.

1:48:08Etienne FontanSo you need to use pests to get rid of pests?

1:48:12Johnny BI don't know.

1:48:13Etienne FontanYou know what?

1:48:17Johnny BBeneficials. I'm using beneficials. That's what I'm using, beneficials.

1:48:25Johnny BAnd it's worked well. In the middle of finishing.

1:48:29ToddI mean, you know, we really, I mean, I think that now that we're getting into this whole situation where we're really, everything is being analyzed, we want sterile gardens. You know, I don't think I'm alone in saying that we don't want bug poop on our plants or in our flowers or in our extracts, even if it was a bug poop.

1:48:47BubblemanWell, you know what, Todd? It's exactly why the lab that was built for the Prana and the Blue River and the Bubble Man brand that Tony built down in California, it's why we went to the level that we went with all of the different water filtration to the special ice machine, to the walk-in frostless freezers, to the antimicrobial, VOC, anti-fucking-everything. Like he built an incredible facility there and it's all because we want to make sure that everything is sterile.

1:49:15BubblemanWe want to make sure that we can clean everything with steam, not chemical solvents.

1:49:22Johnny BWho's got the echo going on? That would be D. Hi, D. I used to stuff called Gold Shield. I got it from somebody here in the beginning. They sent me some stuff, and he always claimed that it was good for killing spores. I'd be spraying it in my room whenever I cleaned things up. It sits in my room, and you know what? Those can be other reasons why I've been able to actually be able to get my guards doing a lot better because these are the steps that we're taking to kill these spores.

1:49:49BubblemanDefinitely a good thing. So, yeah, I just want to read a reply just to give you guys an idea of the level of this hash lab, because I just I got to give props to Tony. Someone asked on our Instagram, you know, is UV the only treatment you're doing? How pure is the water? And so Tony came in and answered. We are running a commercial five filter RO system that then runs into UV sterilization before it hits the ionic pH plate system that gives us a range from 3 to 12 pH prior to a full cube ice maker and supply line to tank stored inside the walk-in frostless freezer.

1:50:21BubblemanIt's considered lab-grade pure water and helps sustain the ice hardness, melt time, and agitation. We use UV sterilization wands and chambers for sterilizing bags, jars, tools, and utilize a pressurized steam system with the same water system with sterilized pouches. The walls are no VOC, antimicrobial, antipathogen, anti-mold that meet hospital healthcare specifications. The flooring is seamless hospital grade meant for surgical rooms, so no resin or mildew or microbes or even blood can stain it.

1:50:48BubblemanIt's a 6,000 square foot facility hosting Prana, Blue River, and Bubble Man. Boom. Fucking proud of that guy.

1:50:55Johnny BThat sounds like the labs that we need to have all over the world. Nice job.

1:51:01BubblemanYeah, well, you know, California always gets it first.

1:51:06Etienne FontanBut these are the types of steps you have to take that if you're going to be in the further environment. I mean, you have to look at those realities. It's nuts. Not something you're going to produce in your basement or, you know, in a side room somewhere. You have to go to these types of realities if you're going to play in the reality of the environment.

1:51:24SpeakerWait a minute. Wait a minute. You mean I can't do it in my kitchen? I promise. I usually wear a hairnet.

1:51:31Etienne FontanCome on. I make it my kitchen. Okay, bro. Just for you, though.

1:51:35BubblemanJust for you. I would take anything you made in your kitchen, just being honest.

1:51:46BubblemanHey, welcome, D420K.

1:51:50SpeakerHe's got mine. Brothers, sisters, hello, everybody. How you doing out there?

1:51:57BubblemanDoing good, man. We talked about powdery mildew for the last couple of hours. It was pretty intense. I feel a little bit dirty, like I want to go have a shower.

1:52:04Johnny BI feel like I have to go check my garden. I want to go outside and check my garden. I'll be back.

1:52:10SpeakerI've seen... I've seen part of that this morning when I was watching. Before I jumped on here, I had to come down to my lab to see how my cure is on my bubble hash. I've got a lot of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 12 pizza boxes with getting that last little bit of moisture out, wicking it out. And it's pretty nice, I've got to say.

1:52:34SpeakerI'm looking forward to coming down and letting you try it out.

1:52:41SpeakerPatrick, come over and do a bong rip, buddy, for everybody. I'm a little bit sick under the weather, so I'm not burning. But bong rip, mother lovers. Let's go. This is my nephew, Patrick. He's covering the bong rip for me today.

1:52:57BubblemanHe's covering the bong rip. He's pinch hitting for you. Yes, yes.

1:53:05SpeakerYeah, that pizza box, buddy, was exactly what it needed. Thanks, bro.

1:53:11BubblemanYeah, the desiccant.

1:53:13SpeakerI just, I don't know why I didn't have that in my brain. I got onto the, you know, it's trying to figure out the, like you guys got your lab going down in California there that I was just listening to. And it just sounds, with what you described to me, it sounds fucking amazing. Like you haven't even, you haven't described it like you have described it to me on Hash Church yet, I don't think.

1:53:37SpeakerAnd it would be pretty cool if you did. It is amazing. I know I'm not going to be able to have a facility like that yet, but the things that are working the best are the old school methods of what you've been teaching me. Fucking pizza box. I couldn't quite get the sizzle out of this because I was putting it on a rack and roll on this thing right here.

1:54:06SpeakerUsing parchment paper.

1:54:10SpeakerLetting it cure, doing its thing, but this stuff here does not wick the water away. Like when you put it in a pizza box and takes the very last little bit out, That you don't want in there, that little bit of moisture that it's almost impossible to pull out unless you use a method like this. Or you have a lab like they're building down in California, which there is not.

1:54:35SpeakerWhat kind of a finish and texture does it have? Is it like a paper cardboard box or corrugated cardboard box or different? It's a cardboard box. You can see in the middle, on the inside here, it's pretty open. The hash when it's finished is very, very dry, very crumbly like sugar. And when it hits the bong, it just turns to liquid.

1:55:03Johnny BDarren, I always see the stacks of pizza boxes upstairs. I used to laugh at them. I always had them marked on my kitchen table every time you came over. Come on.

1:55:12SpeakerIt works.

1:55:13Johnny BIt's what works.

1:55:14SpeakerThe only problem for me is I don't like pizza. Well, you know what? I ordered 50 fucking pizza, large pizza boxes off a U-ship or some company that's getting delivered to my house, all brand new, never had pizza in them. These ones have never had pizza in them either, but those ones I got a stack of 50 large just to fucking use.

1:55:37BubblemanPK Brewer's busting your balls. He's like, it's like D420K never watched a BM how-to video. Jeez. I was like, I know, dude. I've literally showed this in 28 videos and he's asking me the other day. He's like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, have you watched the videos?

1:55:54SpeakerWell, I used to do the pizza boxes, but then I got on a kick of doing it a little bit more technology. Like trying to walk in freezer for those little trays. And just do it a little better.

1:56:07BubblemanWell, that's the Colorado style. Exactly, because it works for there where they have the low humidity. But here where the humidity is so high, especially this time of the year, and this winter has been serious precipitation.

1:56:22SpeakerYes, yes, but this works. Right.

1:56:27BubblemanYeah, that's good. I'm glad. I can't wait to see it and smoke the product. And you've still got it lined with parchment, so you're not doing direct contact. That's right. For those that might be worried about it. There's always someone worried about something.

1:56:38SpeakerBut you know that old school methods, man. I watched the videos. I did know that. But I was trying to kick it up a notch and be a little bit more technology, just a little bit better. But it wasn't doing it. Right back to the pizza box. And when you said the pizza box, it was like I got punched in the face. It was like, what the fuck?

1:56:59SpeakerOf course.

1:57:01BubblemanI still have my 20s sitting on top of my tent here behind me.

1:57:06Johnny BWell, they're a go-to. I remember going to get those pizza boxes. I was going to pizza places because I was doing it for a while. And I was like, yeah, I got this like my kids. I don't have any kids, by the way. There's no kids. But they have this like thing going on at school. So I'm going to get some pizza boxes because we need some dessert.

1:57:22BubblemanAnd I'd walk in and say, I am a hash maker and a grower. And I'm turning my whole crop into hash. And I need like 20 pizza boxes. And the guy would be like, fuck, that's super cool. Fuck, you can have them. Give me 20 flat pizza boxes that I just had to go home and put together.

1:57:40SpeakerWhere I get my ice from, the girl at the shop, there's customers in line. I go to the BC liquor store here because the ice is cheapest here until I buy an ice machine. The lady gives me about 20 bags free every time. I pay for 30 or 40. But when she asked me, well, what do you need so much ice for? One of the customers in line, holy shit, that's a lot of ice having a party.

1:57:59SpeakerI'm like, nope, making hash. Everybody stops and just kind of looks and goes back to their business like nothing happened. I just smile. Making hash, shit loads of it all day.

1:58:09BubblemanWell, it's the truth. And you know what? I find that it helps normalize the reality that it's, you know, we had to always hide it. They wanted us to hide it. And I think in hiding that, it's sort of like part of the damage that was done was that we denormalized it. We put it in the closet. We hid it. Nobody got to see it. And now it's like at the point where you can hear people talking about it.

1:58:29BubblemanThere's people that are in this industry that I see them on planes when I fly. And it'll be like a super straight looking guy. And he'll just be like... I'm in the medical cannabis sector. I just got in a couple years ago, and it's just like, it just makes me smile to see all these different people getting involved and enjoying the plant and accepting the plant. And as you should tell them you're making a shitload of hash, because what a great thing, D420K.

1:58:56BubblemanHash.

1:58:58SpeakerWell, it's something I'm definitely really, really proud about doing. I love helping people. We give a lot of stuff. We make that Rick Simpson oil and stuff like that. And I know it's not the best stuff, but it's helping people. If I had a lab, and I will have what I need in here, eventually, we'll work with what we can right now. It's just very fulfilling. I can spend days down here at this shop and make hash over and over and over, fill all the racks.

1:59:28SpeakerIt's like I can't wait for it to cure. I just want it to do it now.

1:59:32BubblemanYeah, I'm the same way. I'm giddy about hash making. I have been like that for a long time. It's like, really? I'm most anxious out of everything for Jamaica to pop so I can just go turn many, many, many plants into mountains of hash. That's my mission in life right now.

1:59:51SpeakerIt's probably going to be pretty hard to get the humidity and stuff out of it unless you have your lab set up properly over there too. It's probably more humid over there or what?

1:59:59BubblemanYeah, the lab will be sealed. It is sealed. There won't. And absolutely, it's tropical. It's so humid, man. It's unbelievable. It's like rain humid. Thank you so much for watching.

2:00:30BubblemanConstantly sweating like a pig. Although I have to say my Jamaican friends put it pretty simple. I'd be like, man, I'm sweating. And they're like, you're moving too fast. Like seriously, you're moving too fast.

2:00:44SpeakerI can see that from you.

2:00:46BubblemanI never thought of that though.

2:00:47SpeakerWhen you walk pretty much.

2:00:50BubblemanI'm all trying to like walk slow in Jamaica and feel like I'm in slow motion because it's so forced. I just want to...

2:00:59SpeakerYeah, you're every day. You're working. You're running.

2:01:04BubblemanYeah, I run at 8,500 RPMs.

2:01:06SpeakerPretty much. I've been there.

2:01:08BubblemanI've seen it. You've seen me redline.

2:01:12SpeakerOh, yeah. Fucking right. You've seen me redline, too, a couple times. Yeah, that's scary. No, not too scary.

2:01:20BubblemanScarier than when I redlined.

2:01:23Johnny BSo, humidity levels for hash. What are the humidity levels for hash? Like 0, 2, 3%? What are we thinking? What are we storing that at? How are we getting it so it doesn't keep buttering up on us?

2:01:37BubblemanWell, that's really up to the... It really depends on the person and the room that they have access to. As low as you can get it, obviously. Get the humidity down as low as you can get it. If you can create some Arizona in that bitch, then get her done!

2:01:54Johnny BRyan Bolvin has got something that will bring us down to that humidity level so you can have like little rooms that are like 20% or something. Because a lot of people can't get those humidity levels down in their rooms. Like for me, in the summer, forget it. I'm not, you know, there's certain things you just can't do. If you don't have the room, I can't make my product.

2:02:11SpeakerHow about putting a dehumidifier in your cure room? Is that quickening it too much?

2:02:18Johnny BI ran the AC unit in the summer in my room to harvest.

2:02:23BubblemanI'll tell you one thing about it. This is literally the most important factor is drying the hash. It's pretty much the only thing as a hash maker you're responsible for. Everything else is pretty much being done for you if you're using like some type of a water hash kit like bubble bags and even more so if you're using like a bubble now to mix it for you.

2:02:43BubblemanAt that point, really your job is to scoop piles of resin out of screen bags Clean the bags, which is part of it. You know, take care of your tools so you don't create microbials and other nasties that might end up in your product later on. Clean those bags as good as possible. Don't let them heat up. But really what your most important thing is and the only thing that you're really responsible for is breaking the hash up into powder.

2:03:09BubblemanAnd allowing it to dry and cure. So dry in the sense the water that's on the outside of it is going to be removed, but also that wax membrane that holds moisture that seems to smoke very, very differently when smoked early compared to well cured. And if you change how you cure it, i.e. something as simple as like going from cardboard to parchment paper, Thank you for joining us today.

2:03:54BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

2:04:19BubblemanThank you for joining us today.

2:04:35BubblemanThe same way recreational people have a choice, there's going to be, for people who are using it medicinally, certain ones that are more effective, even in the same cultivar, because the color that you're changing more than anything are those terpenes. And if we know that terpenes modulate the effects of cannabinoids, it makes sense that that would have an effect on the effects.

2:05:01BubblemanJust going to read the chat here for a bit.

2:05:06SpeakerSay it, Darren. In the chat it said there was one guy saying that I was in a basement lab, my basement lab. This is not a basement lab. This is a fucking shop. I spend money trying to up this game, trying to make it better, cleaner. I've got linoleum checkered flooring. I got plastic poly walls, everything like that to make it as clean and as sanitary as I possibly can.

2:05:32Johnny BGood job.

2:05:32SpeakerI'll smoke your hash. Sorry, but yeah, I'm not talking, taking no shit from anybody. As you should not. I spend money on it. I spend to do to make it better for people. So, like I said, I'm not saying it again, but you heard me the first time. The old branch.

2:05:50BubblemanSame way, dude. Every once in a while, I'll see some stupid shit in chat, and then luckily I can just delete and block them out because I don't really feel like...

2:05:58SpeakerI usually do. I just needed to reply to that one. That was... I don't like that. This ain't a basement. This is the upstairs, actually, of the shop.

2:06:08BubblemanWell, whoever Grat96 is is saying, didn't mean any disrespect. Sunny 20, fuck yes.

2:06:14Johnny BWe spend time, energy, and money in building what we believe in to build and to produce our medicine. Like my lab that I put every heart in peace and piling and doing the corners and spent years and every penny. And if you say, where did I get my growing from? Watch how I've grown my growing room over the last five years. Thank you for watching.

2:06:58BubblemanI spent $2.7 million on my factory in Kansas, which has a...

2:07:08SpeakerThank you for watching.

2:07:39SpeakerDitchweed growing around my factory, which I hope to put to use for the CBD and for the seeds that are there if they go medical. And I already asked the Chamber of Commerce, the local Chamber of Commerce, what about harvesting it if it goes legal? And they were like all for it. They offered to help me harvest it because they look at it as a noxious weed.

2:08:07Etienne FontanIt's all good. I'll just smoke it.

2:08:09BubblemanSerious investment, someone was saying. That's a serious investment. Yep.

2:08:14SpeakerLet's go.

2:08:15Johnny BThat's what I wanted to hear, Darren.

2:08:17BubblemanBong rep. Run the bong, man.

2:08:21BubblemanI'll have a bong rip. I kind of missed Easter today with my son. It was a bummer. I had to take my other son to ski school and then race back to start church. And I missed my youngest son waking up and like finding his little eggs, which I got to see a video though. So that's good. Yeah, go for it. Absolutely. All right. Well, I'll have a bong rip.

2:08:47BubblemanA little pinch of dry sift, a little spoonful of dry sift helps the medicine go down.

2:08:53Etienne FontanSo y'all have had record snow up there in Canada like here in California this year? Yep.

2:08:57BubblemanYeah. It's winter time up in the mountains right now.

2:09:01Etienne FontanSo is there as much concern? Because I was reading there's big concern like in Nevada because there's going to be a huge amount of water flowing down there that they have not had.

2:09:10Johnny BYou need the water.

2:09:12Etienne FontanSo that's what you need the water. But at the same time, a lot of these rivers and infrastructures aren't prepared for this type of inundation. Whereas I think you are more prepared for it.

2:09:22BubblemanWe're prepared mainly because we have the Pacific Ocean that surrounds us. So all of our water feeds into the Pacific Ocean.

2:09:31Johnny BAnd so it's like most of our water feeds into big pipes that go down to California now, actually.

2:09:38BubblemanPacific Ocean, all the rainwater and the melt that comes off of these mountains go right into the Pacific.

2:09:48BubblemanIt's definitely better than running out of water like we did last year, Etienne. But at the same time, it's definitely going to cause havoc in the sense All of that stuff. So, you know, winter's been pushed back, so people in the back country are still doing back country sports like snowboarding and snowmobiling, skiing. That's definitely going to, you know, once the melt comes in and it'll be a big melt, there'll be avalanches, there'll be, you know, there'll be things that happen that are, That are tragedies.

2:10:17BubblemanThere was just one in my backyard, like four or five days ago, five people fell off a cornice, 500 meter drop off of a mountain, all snowshoeing behind my house. It was a terrible tragedy. Six people actually, one guy fell behind. And because he fell behind, he actually ended up living through the tragedy and all of his friends passed away, so. Shout out to the hikers and the backcountry people in the world dying, doing what you love.

2:10:45BubblemanSorry to see you go, but glad you went away that you enjoyed. Be safe. Be safe. Be safe. It's dangerous out there. Took my dirt bike up the mountain the other day, just ripped up behind the house, up to the waterfall up there for a little session. And, uh, It's pretty gnarly up there. Definitely don't want to be going too far.

2:11:10Johnny BIs there any plants up there growing yet? Is anybody out there planting their outdoors? Because this is the season. I guess after the melt comes down, we've got the water. Outdoor is going to be a great thing. It's May long weekend, April. We went through the May long weekend, so I think most people started planting their outdoors right now. But it was a little cold. It's cold out here right now, and if I put anything out there, I don't think it would live.

2:11:33BubblemanThank you for watching.

2:11:54Johnny BThank you for watching.

2:12:15Johnny BAnd seeds or may their seeds by the end, by time it legalizes, they're going to be big enough that you can put them outside. Like we're at a point right now that it'll be interesting in how they're going to be able to enforce the four plant minimum maximum. But like I said, they put 2.3 billion into cannabis enforcement last year. So I think we'll be in really around that, but just get ready for every household to grow four plants.

2:12:42Johnny BThat's all I say. And that's a start. At least we're starting somewhere.

2:12:46Etienne FontanSo are they going to be allowed to just buy seeds or will they be allowed to buy clones?

2:12:49Johnny BSeeds by the sounds of it will only be purchased through licensed producers and clones by the sounds of it. I remember some companies started at the beginning by only housing mother plants and for cloning and for seeds. So we'll see where that happens. There isn't really a legal way of being able to purchase seeds. I can buy seeds through Health Canada in the past. I don't know if I can do that still through being MMAR.

2:13:12Etienne FontanWhat will the future be for these now recreational, you know, adult using, you know, Canadians? There has to be a sponsor access for them.

2:13:22Johnny BSo it would be something that you can actually argue with stuff like that. I get four plants. I get four seeds. One of those seeds are males. I produce my own seeds. So now I have my own variety that I'm growing. So, I mean, there's all these little things that are going to be challenging court and stuff like that because, I mean, I'm not buying something from, like me personally, I'm exempted because I am MMAR.

2:13:43Johnny BSo that's where, I mean, I'm kind of in that realm. But a lot of people,

2:13:48Etienne FontanSo to clarify, the MMA are exempt from the plant number limits.

2:13:52Johnny BWe're exempted from the laws of cannabis. We're held in that little bubble where we're protected on the injunction of where I stand with my license. So mark himself.

2:14:00BubblemanBut you don't think the license, you would still have to, you know, not go over your plant count? Like you're still limited to our plant count?

2:14:06Johnny BYou've been limited to your plant count, yes.

2:14:07BubblemanBut I mean... That's what he was asking.

2:14:09Johnny BYes, yeah, I'm still limited to my plant count. I can have a lot more than four plants. I can carry a lot more than 30 grams, carry 150. I can have a lot more. It doesn't state how much you can store. So if I have four plants...

2:14:21BubblemanYour license does.

2:14:22Johnny BOh, my license does, but I'm saying in the new regulations, if you can have four plants 30 centimeters high, I mean, we all know that we can create, you know, a plant this wide 30 centimeters high by proper... 100 centimeters high, not 30. What's that, 30 inches?

2:14:39SpeakerYeah, it's over 36, I mean.

2:14:41Johnny BYeah, so it's over three feet. Three meters, yeah. Right, so, I mean, just ways, but it'll be interesting on how the whole thing will go.

2:14:50SpeakerYeah, they've actually made it really strict on seeds. If you have more than 30 seeds, you're essentially open to like 14.

2:14:57Johnny BOh, really? See, I didn't read that part from her. I haven't, I've been reading it. Where's the...

2:15:02SpeakerYeah, one of the new things the legislation, the proposed legislation says is more than 30 seeds is, sorry, one seed is the equivalent of one gram of herbal cannabis. And if you, when the penicillin kicks in is if you're walking around. That's kind of illogical.

2:15:28SpeakerIt's ridiculous, really, because today, seed weighs what the weight is, right? It's all by seed weight. There's the bill. It's ridiculous. It's absolutely absurd. There's a whole bunch of stuff that's in the proposed act that's just absolutely fucking stupid. But I think what they're doing is they're trying to You know, really make it scary and dangerous to be doing business the way that business is done today and not being part of the regulated system.

2:16:02Johnny BIf you read it, like it's by, you've read it Camaro, I've read it, I've gotten like to page like 63 or something, but I mean, it's really geared on a big enforcement. It is allowing legal cannabis, but with really strict, strict rules. I was in, I mean, there's no selling, of course. I mean, that remains the same, but the enforcement behind it is just, I mean, it's ridiculous.

2:16:25Johnny B14 years in prison. I mean, they can really hammer down. They can seize, an officer can seize your assets if he feels that you're doing something wrong and related to it. I mean... Really, in reality, I mean, I'm not concerned for myself, but I mean, it's just the way that they're trying to enforce these laws and make it. Wow, it's pretty, we get legal, but at the same time, I mean, for the average one, I mean, you got to be so careful on, it'd be interesting on if I have 30 grams, how do they know it's not from my, you know, are you selling it?

2:17:03Johnny BIs it from your own garden? Is it from a licensed producer? You got to carry that bottle with the prescription on it. There's all these little things around packaging and stuff like that that I just started reading. So whatever you read about the packaging. Yeah.

2:17:15SpeakerThey're going to start targeting people also that have what they consider illicit cannabis. So if you have the system, you're essentially not protected. Which is going to be, I mean, it's just, it's an impossibility to try and, you know, police something like that.

2:17:31BubblemanAll of it is an impossibility to try and police. And then I would also add that, yeah, when you see things that are like 14 years, it's easy to pull that out and say, 14 years, it's like, yeah, well, currently, currently, it's life in prison in Canada. This is what there's a challenge. So think of that. That's it's like people are always like, yes, it sucks. It's horrible.

2:17:54BubblemanIt's brutal. But everyone's going to be able to grow four plants that they're not going to be able to enforce. And oh, like 60 million plants. So they're going to be able to go and check the height on those plants and make sure you only have 30 grams. And there's just going to be more.

2:18:08SpeakerThey are clearly intended. It says it says clearly in the active there's.

2:18:12BubblemanWe'll see. They've done so well at the war on drugs so far. We'll see how it continues.

2:18:19SpeakerYeah, but the point that I'm trying to make is that they've essentially, they haven't removed, you remember when they said that they were going to have a stakeholders meeting about this a long time ago when they first started talking about legalization?

2:18:30BubblemanVague.

2:18:31Speaker2012? Stakeholders was the police. And so the police, through Bill Blair or whoever it was, have done a really fucking good job on holding on to the money that they had to enforce, you know, cannabis law in Canada. It's like, it would have been really nice if they had taken the approach of getting the police not involved with cannabis and make it more like alcohol, you know?

2:19:00BubblemanWell, I suspect as well that they're not really free to do things in any way that they want to do them, that they're probably between a rock and a hard place in the sense that how are they even doing this? How is Canada federally legalizing cannabis in the world today where like our neighbor America is not? And they're kind of like call the shots all the time.

2:19:24BubblemanLike we just line up behind America because holy shit, they'll fire 59 Tomahawk missiles at you.

2:19:30SpeakerThat argument would have worked like 10 years ago, but the way I see it, weed is more legal in the States than it is in California. You might disagree if you're in, sorry, than it is in Canada. You might disagree if you're in Mississippi or Louisiana, but if you're in Colorado...

2:19:45ToddIt depends on where you're standing. It's hard to generalize and make anything but a stupid comment because it is amazing what's happening in places like Washington. You just got to go to i502data.com on their website and look at all the money that's coming in legally to the producers, to the tax people, to everything, the communities, all that's circulating around the cannabis industry. There's no way it's not.

2:20:11ToddThe rents they're paying, the electricity they're buying, the fertilizers, the food they get from the auxiliary businesses around the grows, all of it. Everyone's making money now, and that's a good thing.

2:20:23SpeakerI can prove that cannabis is freer in California. I'll give out Todd's address. He's got free cannabis for everybody that shows up.

2:20:33ToddI'm going. Oh, wait, I can. Happy to grow everybody in the world free pot. That would be a great thing. What are you doing today? I'm growing everybody.

2:20:41BubblemanI think the big thing for a cannabis, like, you know, for it to be legal for real is that you can travel over the imaginary borders within your country. And that's a huge difference that people just can't imagine. When you, when you, when it's just not a reality.

2:20:59ToddBut you know what though, when we first went to Europe, that's what it was like to go to Germany. We had to cross over the border and that was scary as fuck. And you know, and then afterwards it wasn't like that. You could drive all the way to Spain, go all the way through France, going to Spain, not touch no border. Yeah. Yeah, I've done it. I've taken the drive.

2:21:18ToddIt's awesome.

2:21:19SpeakerIf you drive from Spain to France, though, I mean, you're pretty much getting searched at some point.

2:21:25ToddOh, damn straight. I drove from Amsterdam down and back, and I didn't get stopped or searched anywhere. Very rare.

2:21:32BubblemanThat's like going through Germany. One time I didn't get stopped from Holland. The border had closed, and they just went to bed, and we drove through late at night, puffing hash out of a little glass pipe.

2:21:42SpeakerI go across all international borders around Europe fairly often, and I've never been stopped except for going in and out of Switzerland. But they weren't, I didn't drive down to Spain either and come back because traditionally that's where all the Moroccan comes up from Spain and so they're looking for it. Spain through to France, they shut down highways, they have police at the toll highways, like there's, they might not be at the border but there's a lot of fucking policing that happens.

2:22:13SpeakerThey got a lot of dogs. They just profile cars. Hold on.

2:22:18ToddIn France, it's illegal to have pot leaps on your clothing. Exactly. And that really freaked me out because it is that oppressive. Never mind a joint in public. If you have a pot leaf on your hemp jacket, you can expect a cop to come over to you and be like, what are you carrying? That's fucked up, but it's true.

2:22:40BubblemanI found that to be very fucked up when I was in France. Even in the late 80s, it was very harsh.

2:22:45SpeakerThe best thing to do is have either some cheese or a bottle of wine on your t-shirt, then you're fine.

2:22:52BubblemanHey, what's up? I like cheese and wine. All right, carry on. Carry on.

2:22:56ToddDon't you think that border will dissolve someday between Canada and Canada? It's the saddest one probably that exists in the whole world, in all honesty.

2:23:04SpeakerThe border's gotten stronger because of the whole problem with terrorism the last year or two. Before that, the Shingle Agreement made sure that everybody could do everything. Now, there's restrictions.

2:23:17Etienne FontanWell, now we have to, as Americans, now that we travel to Europe, we're going to have to go through visas because of the new Trump rule of fucking with those European countries. The EU voted that to travel now from the United States to Europe, we have to get visas.

2:23:32SpeakerWell, it's about time they did something to keep you rednecks out.

2:23:38Etienne FontanThat's rouge neck, sir. Rouge.

2:23:41SpeakerRouge neck.

2:23:42Etienne FontanOh, shit. My name's Etienne, goddammit.

2:23:46SpeakerEtienne Fontaine. My wife has French genetics in her blood too, so yeah.

2:23:56Etienne FontanNo French. These are Basque. Sorry, not French.

2:23:59SpeakerShe is Basque also.

2:24:01Etienne FontanWell, I'll accept that.

2:24:05SpeakerI'm sure their family has blown up many more French and Spanish people than yours.

2:24:12Etienne FontanI was in artillery, sir.

2:24:15SpeakerWatch out.

2:24:17Etienne FontanToo much.

2:24:18BubblemanToo much. What's everyone up to on this Sunday afternoon after Hash Church? You guys got any Easter plans or is it growing cannabis?

2:24:25SpeakerI was going to hide the eggs, but I didn't know how long it would take anybody to find them because nobody ever comes and visits me.

2:24:32BubblemanYeah, right. You have epic people come visit you all the time.

2:24:39SpeakerIf they're boiled eggs, you got to keep them refrigerated. It's better maybe to poke a hole in the end and fill them up with confetti.

2:24:47BubblemanYou could literally do a show in your living room like Jerry Seinfeld does in his car. And just like every time someone really cool came by, you could just be like, all right, let's just, you know, turn the camera on and chat and puff bowls and see where this goes. I would, I would watch that show. Just saying.

2:25:05Etienne FontanAre you and the family doing anything this afternoon and evening?

2:25:09SpeakerMy family. Oh, you're talking to markets.

2:25:13BubblemanI don't know. Everyone. You could have been talking to anyone.

2:25:16SpeakerI have no plans whatsoever. My family is in Asia, going to be in South Africa, and in America.

2:25:28BubblemanDamn. Covering the gamut there.

2:25:32SpeakerWe're pulling down Congos here today. Oh, nice. I love that. Does Congo get mailed out? Not really. No, it's actually quite powdery, mildew resistant. Cool. So it's a nice thing. Yeah.

2:25:49BubblemanThere it is. Mitch named the show. Mitch named the show. It's going to be called Sam in the Dam.

2:25:58BubblemanOr just Damn Sam. Yeah, it could turn into Damn Sam eventually. It could kind of be like you next to the big plant, the desk and the bong, one guest.

2:26:12SpeakerOr that really big damagy that they have, the cement one at Roken Square. There you go. Across the street from the palace. The palace, the Krasnopolsky? Yep, right in front of that. Ah, the Krasnopolsky.

2:26:32Etienne FontanNo, no, in front of the big gold turtles. That's where it should be.

2:26:35SpeakerYeah, but that's the biggest damage in town. They got lots of the metal ones that are, you know, four feet tall, but this one is much taller. It's a monster.

2:26:47Johnny BThere's Jake.

2:26:50BubblemanJake's in the house. How's it going? Hey, what's going on, Jake? Hey, Jake.

2:26:58SpeakerHey. Everybody. Happy Easter, Jake. Happy Easter. Thank you. Happy Easter to all you guys, too.

2:27:07BubblemanAbsolutely. Been pretty chill. We've been talking a lot about powdery mildew today.

2:27:13SpeakerI'm just dealing with that myself. Fuck.

2:27:16Johnny BRecently? Yeah.

2:27:17SpeakerYeah. It is the season.

2:27:18Johnny BOkay, now I want to go look at my garden.

2:27:20SpeakerWhat's the variety that you're growing? What variety am I growing?

2:27:24Johnny BYeah.

2:27:25BubblemanThe one that's being affected the most. The OG. Yeah.

2:27:29SpeakerYeah.

2:27:33BubblemanI don't believe it. What did you say, Chimera? I want to hear that.

2:27:36SpeakerIt's powdery mildew, huh? That's a surprise.

2:27:39BubblemanI could kind of see it on your smile that it was something along those lines, but I needed to see it just in like a little...

2:27:48SpeakerThere is a product called Nova. Yeah, we all know about the Nova. Yeah, that's the one that they... I found out today that if you use apple cider vinegar in water... We'll do the same thing. But without the poison part.

2:28:06BubblemanExactly. That's fucking awesome. Just, what is that? The changing of the pH, really? Is that really what that's doing more than anything?

2:28:15SpeakerWell, can we get some expert's opinion on that? Like, Chimera, I want to hear your opinion on the apple cider. And Todd, Mark, I'd like to...

2:28:25BubblemanI've never used it myself. I remember there was a PM, there was a leaf thing. I'm of the school, if you want my opinion, when it gets PM, kill it, get rid of it, fucking sterilize and bomb the room. That's my opinion. I'll pass it on to Chimera and Todd.

2:28:41SpeakerYeah, I mean, I don't know. PM is known to grow in an acidic environment, so usually the treatment is to actually change the pH the opposite way, to raise the pH. So there's a lot of different products that you can use for doing that. We're really trying to stay into the organic world, like what works organically and is not poison, because we all know you can use Nova or Equal 20 or whatever else, mouse stocks, but we're trying to now produce crops that nobody does that, right?

2:29:11ToddI think a large part of the conversation that's going missed is that we are, especially as indoor growers or greenhouse growers, We're cutting the plants out of having any UV because it's just an inherent part of the, you know, shields we're putting up, the glass we're using. And I think we're seeing that, you know, maybe nature has it right. Maybe we need to have some UV in our gardens.

2:29:35SpeakerIt's not UV because there's varieties that you can grow indoors under the same setup and they don't get powdery mildew. And there's varieties you can grow outdoors do get UV and they still get powdery mildew. There's plants that will grow right beside a plant with powdery mildew that will not have powdery mildew on it at all. Absolutely. Yeah, the question is, are any of them cush? Right?

2:29:59SpeakerCushes are pretty dumb to get just devastated by PM. It's been pretty solid for years, hasn't it? We haven't had that problem. This PM has just started coming up. We've been growing the cush for... Fuck, at least eight years. At least. And it's just starting to show up now. Are you packing it in tighter? I mean, is there less light levels, less airflow? I don't think so.

2:30:25SpeakerNo, I think we've done pretty good on our rooms. Mark's been in our rooms. John's been in our rooms.

2:30:30Etienne FontanWell, it's also given years for these plants to also this bacteria to adapt to, to cannabis because, you know, it's adapting as well because in the past, people really hadn't had as much problem with it. But recently, it seems to have broken through that 40% humidity threshold and has really caused problems up and down the West Coast.

2:30:56SpeakerMaybe there's mutated varieties which can use a wider environmental space to cause problems. Now, Johnny mentioned those Quest dehumidifiers earlier in the show, and I've used those in the past. They're little pro ones that you wheel around, not the installed ones. But they're killer. They do make a huge difference. Huge. You know, doing things like not letting, leaving water on the floor of your room, you know, making sure that you have some kind of system that takes away the water from overwatering your plants, be it in tables or anything.

2:31:35Johnny BYou need to have trays, stuff like that.

2:31:38SpeakerYeah, but trays, I mean, I've seen trays where people have, they don't put drainage in the trays, they just leave the water in the trays, and that's kind of the same thing as leaving it on the floor, you know. I think high humidity levels are even worse for Botrytis than they are for mildew. Yeah. How about essential oils like garlic and thyme and essential oils that you could spray on your plants?

2:32:02SpeakerWhat were the ones that you used?

2:32:04Johnny BI don't want to taste that in my resin. Yeah, I've never done that. I don't want to taste it in my resin.

2:32:11SpeakerWell, I'm not talking about spraying it on your plant when it's in bud. This stuff has to happen while it's in veg if it's going to happen. But mildew gets worse the more it flowers. So that's not always going to work. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, I really, like I said, I'm a big fan of InVeg on mother plants. It's incredible stuff. They don't actually sell it up here in Canada.

2:32:37SpeakerYou've got to import it. But it works really, really well.

2:32:41Etienne FontanI think you can only get it industrially here in the United States.

2:32:45SpeakerWell, they sell it in like whatever 10 gallons or 5 gallon containers or 30s, right? They sell big ones too. But I think that's actually the equivalent of what they use under the ACMPR system in Canada. They use canola oil, and I think that's probably designed to do the same thing, right? But it's a plant-based oil, not a petroleum byproduct. But anything, you don't want to be spraying on flowers.

2:33:10SpeakerBut yeah, you really want to have these things taken care of well before you hit flowering. I mean, if you got PM before you hit flowering, damn, you're in trouble.

2:33:18Johnny BIf you got PM before you start flowering, don't flower.

2:33:23Johnny BThat's the best advice I can give you.

2:33:26SpeakerA couple of lies, too, that are right into the whole bricks. You know what bricks is? Like the sugar content of the leaf and the pH of the leaf?

2:33:33Johnny BWell, that's what bricks is. I mean, they spray it on the last, you know, week of flower, and it basically, it's like a protectant in a way, but it's also an increase of development. I know the products through Green Planet and stuff like that. So... Is there one?

2:33:50SpeakerIt's a measurement. It's a tool. It's like a pH meter. You can take the brick's value of the sap of the plant.

2:33:58Johnny BOh, I'm sorry.

2:34:00SpeakerIt's very commonly done to determine maturity of grapes, for example. Yeah, it's a measurement of sugar content, I think. But I know a bunch of guys that are really serious about that whole practice, and They measure the pH of the sap and they're convinced that there's a certain pH of the sap where you won't get battery mildew, right? That it's essentially an opportunistic fungus that like it can really do its damage when things aren't ideal and the plant's over the top.

2:34:34SpeakerDo you think that's true? No idea. I haven't really actually looked at it. I don't know either way. It would be interesting to know. Yeah.

2:34:50SpeakerWell, most of these things just haven't been studied properly, you know what I mean? Some grower says, I did this and it worked, and that's not how you do science. You have to have controls, right? You have to have an experiment going alongside it where it didn't get the treatment. One thing we have talked about on church today in terms of powder mildew is potassium bicarbonate. Has anybody mentioned potassium bicarbonate?

2:35:14BubblemanNo.

2:35:15SpeakerPotassium bicarbonate is like... Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, and potassium bicarbonate is a very similar salt, but instead of having, you know, when you put it in the water, the carbonate ion and the potassium disassociate, so they come apart in the water mixture, and it's the bicarbonate ion that actually kills the spore, like it will fry the spore. You can search it up online, search green cure or potassium bicarbonate powdery mildew, and you can see the electron micrographs.

2:35:47SpeakerSo that works really well. Do you leave it on the plant or do you wash it off afterwards? Don't mistake it for sodium bicarbonate because sodium bicarbonate is actually not good for the plant. Sodium is toxic to plants. So definitely hunt out the potassium bicarbonate if you're going to try it. And sorry, Sam, I didn't hear what you were saying. What I meant was after you use the product and you've solved your problem, can you wash it off or do you leave it on the plant?

2:36:19SpeakerWell, it would come, you'd spray it, it would come off in just a water spray. It's not, you know, it's like baking soda. We're not talking about some big, dangerous chemical, right?

2:36:30ToddWell, also... No, the chemical is actually used in soda water to actually make it less acidic. It also raises the alkalinity of the water.

2:36:39SpeakerThat's right. And that's the least surface to it. So that's one of the things about PM is it's said that it likes a slightly acidic environment. You can also use it really strong to clean your room, you know, when you're done. It's like that will fry powdery mildew stores, so. And it's cheap, cheap, cheap. I remember buying like an 80-pound bag at a TNW in Vancouver for like 80 bucks, so.

2:37:09SpeakerDefinitely to have a good tool to have in the powdery mildew toolbox.

2:37:17Johnny BI'm pretty sure I have lots of tools in my powdery mildew toolbox.

2:37:22SpeakerTo be honest, I hated to treat powdery mildew. I like to know how to do it, but what I really wanted to do was see which plants were susceptible so I could get rid of them.

2:37:36Johnny BWhat's in your toolbox, Johnny? Oh, um, proper humidity control, uh, environmental control. I use a UVC light. Um, of course, uh, um, you know what? I use neem oil before I go into flowers. So I'm always spraying my, my room down, my plants and pre before getting any bugs or anything like that. That's what I did with this crop. I think I did that all on video and what I was doing.

2:37:59Johnny BI use the nemesis nemo toads, uh, in the root zone. So just, uh, Biological and that was about it. So far, fantastic. The room was doing tremendous after the big bug infection I had last year in the PM just before that. At the PM before surgery, had surgery, tried growing again after. So at the same time before and all the problems I had in the room was because I was unable to keep up the cleansiness and the uptake of the room of going in every day, maintaining my humidity controls, making sure things were running properly.

2:38:31Johnny BSo now that I'm back into better health and stuff like that, so was my garden. So it's just basically keeping up with your garden and being able to control those humidity levels and making sure that you're not getting all these fluctuations and leaves aren't touching and they're getting proper airflow. And hey, I mean, it's just good gardening. Thank you for joining us.

2:39:13SpeakerAnd do you think you have gravitated away plants that easily get milled out? Or do you think if you control your environmental conditions enough, you can make any plant not get milled out? I don't think we can hear you. I think your mic is off.

2:39:36Johnny BOh, sorry. I believe if you have those proper conditions, then, I mean, Sam, you should say, I mean, can the PM at that point live in that environment? No, it shouldn't be able to. Once you find out the environment for that specific plant, and that happened with my strain, I know the environment it lives in, so now I'm not getting the PM problems which I was getting in the past is because I wasn't controlling the proper environment for that genetic maybe.

2:40:03Johnny BAnd it's taken me years to be able to dial in what feeding program with any strain.

2:40:09ToddWhat is your humidity range, John, that you feel that you use that inhibits?

2:40:14Johnny BI don't go, I'll make sure I don't go over 60% humidity. That's for one thing. At night, my humidity levels go down to about 42 to 45%. And during the day, they're up between 58 to 60. Sometimes the room was around 55. That's my particular strain.

2:40:29ToddAnd that's what it is between 40 and 60 at all times. Pardon me? So your room is at a low of 40 and a high of 60.

2:40:38Johnny BMax 60. My humidity levels fluctuate within about 10 to 15% between night and day.

2:40:45Etienne FontanSam, I have a couple of questions for you. Sure. One of the longest growers here. First question is, when did you first sight white pottery and mildew?

2:40:56SpeakerI never saw it on cannabis in California. So after the introduction of Afghan wide leaf varieties. And when was that?

2:41:06SpeakerI think the first one I saw was after I came back from Afghanistan. So it must have been the end of 71 or 70, the very beginning of 72. And when did you, second question is when did you start? There was Afghans in California before that. But I hadn't seen them growing myself.

2:41:29Etienne FontanOr them bred with other genetics. But the second question was then, when you started to find white powdery mildew in your garden and started to notice that your equatorials were not as susceptible.

2:41:45SpeakerI never saw it until I moved to the Netherlands. I never saw it in California.

2:41:50Etienne FontanBecause I noticed when I was, because I've only grown here in California, I did grow in West Virginia, but I never noticed white powdery mildew until I was here in California. But that's where, you know, I'd say it was back in the early 2000s.

2:42:04SpeakerI had high light levels and I had a pretty dry atmosphere. That might have helped. Right. And I did have some white leaf varieties which do get mildewed, like Afghani No. 1. Right. You know, depending on the clone, it can be very susceptible.

2:42:25ToddYou know, but again, it's environment. And if there are other plants that have been introduced in the environment since you left and went to Amsterdam, that could be a good reason why there's powdery mildew all over this area now, all over Santa Cruz. You are hard pressed to find pot grown in Santa Cruz, Humboldt, Mendo, that hasn't had growers battling the shit.

2:42:45SpeakerTrue, true, absolutely true. But I can't help but wonder, I mean, how much powdery mildew from cannabis spores are in the air? I know that there's powdery mildew spores floating around, but if there's only three species that are truly attacking cannabis, then... It doesn't seem like we can put enough up in the air to get everybody else.

2:43:10Etienne FontanSo it would lead more to what Todd was saying. It leads more to the theory that there seems to be systemic infections.

2:43:17SpeakerIt could be infection being spread through clones also or seeds, whatever.

2:43:22ToddCorrect, because there's their property. Part of the problem is... You want to grow this stuff, you're going to get it. Because it's in the strains that are being passed around at all the clubs. It's systemic and it's environmental. So it's a combination of two things happening. You know, everybody wants these great strains that are kind of prone to get it. And all these strains have been somewhere that they could have picked it up.

2:43:49Etienne FontanCraig, it's like having the HIV virus. It doesn't mean you're going to get full-blown AIDS, but you still, it inherently has the virus.

2:43:56SpeakerYeah, especially if you don't treat it. It's not a virus, though. We shouldn't say that.

2:44:01Etienne FontanCorrect, correct. I was just...

2:44:03SpeakerBut you're right. The analogy is totally, is totally correct.

2:44:05Etienne FontanThat's what I was going for, is analogy only.

2:44:07SpeakerYeah, so which comes up to the ethics of, is it okay to use, like, sprays like Eagle 20 or Nova on, like, the microbutanol products? Is it okay to use it to sterilize cuttings? And then how long does it take to get out of a plant, right?

2:44:23Etienne FontanWell, it's the highest testing product in cannabis that we find.

2:44:31SpeakerThat therefore then should be the threshold if you can detect it, right?

2:44:36Etienne FontanWell, there has to be an analysis for what a threshold of detection number is. There's no applicables for inhaled ingested like cannabis. So it's a known unknown. You know, there has to be actual studies and nobody wants to even touch it. And the only studies that you can get here in America, you can only get access to, as we know, weed that is already moldy to begin with, which is the NIH.

2:45:00SpeakerA good example is Neem. I understood recently they did studies and they think it might be carcinogenic if smoked.

2:45:10Etienne FontanAnd that's an issue because people have been, you know, using that as a biological, you know, for...

2:45:17ToddIt is a biological. In the 90s, you know, just because of extracts. I mean, the more I learned about the fact that I wanted what was on the edges of it, I didn't want anything contaminating, which brings me around to water again, because I think that as we learn more about... Ionized water, we're going to find out that we can just use high pH, high alkaline water to break off and to maintain our gardens because if we create an environment that it can exist, we will have an advantage over it.

2:45:48ToddAnd whatever you want to call it, it is a pain in the ass. One of the things I was thinking about doing before was setting up the misters like you see in a supermarket when you're near the vegetables and they come on periodically and just pumping high alkaline water in there and misting the atmosphere and the plants because then it couldn't ever establish itself in that type of high pH environment and it wouldn't hurt the plants and it wouldn't be any type of chemical solution.

2:46:16ToddI mean...

2:46:17SpeakerTodd, do you bring air from outside?

2:46:21ToddI've seen it in both rooms. I've seen it in rooms that are AC sealed rooms with a carbon filter and other things trying to turn it over and it comes, it pops up, and I've seen it in fresh air rooms that turn rooms over. I've seen it. It's so weird. It pops up in places and then there'll be a plant next to it, like you're saying, that doesn't have it at all, which makes you really then think and go, Jesus Christmas, you know, did this thing bring it in on its back?

2:46:48ToddAnd it probably did.

2:46:56SpeakerI've had the same clone for 25 years, and every year I grew it with low light, low temperatures, low air flow, it would get some powdery mildew on it. And what I would do the next year is take clones from the top of the plant, And they grew vegetative and flowered without problems. But after that, there would be problems. You could grow a crop, but it was hard to maintain them when you were trying to do it in a very casual way with very low light levels over the winter.

2:47:35SpeakerMakes sense.

2:47:42Johnny BThanks for coming out, Johnny B.

2:47:49BubblemanPeace out, brother. We'll talk to you soon, I'm sure. I'm also going to call church. Today was kind of PM church, you know, but lots of good information, lots of good conversation. Hope everyone...

2:48:04Etienne FontanWell, it's the biggest problem that everybody faces, so I think it's a good one to address.

2:48:08SpeakerSpider mites is a big problem, too. Yeah, that'll be next, Church, I think. The only one before you go is another product, Xeritol. I don't know if you guys know Xeritol, but it's essentially hydroxide and the hydrogen peroxide version of vinegar, like vinegar with an extra oxygen atom. And they both are good for killing spores and cleaning.

2:48:35Etienne FontanCan you spell that out, please?

2:48:38SpeakerZero tall, Z-E-R-O-T-L-L. Have you used it? Yep, for sure. It's great. I've never used that one either.

2:48:50BubblemanLittle Canadian slipping out there with the Z. I like that.

2:48:54SpeakerWell, you got to correct it for the Americans so they know what we're talking about.

2:48:56BubblemanThey're like Zed, Zed, Zeb, Zedbrah.

2:49:03BubblemanAwesome. I'm Canadian. It sounded normal to me. Thank you guys all for coming out. D420K and the crew, Chimera and Etienne, Skunkman Sam, Indra, Todd McCormick. We had Johnny B who's left us and Kevin McKernan who was in earlier as well. And we'll be back next week. We'll be chatting about all sorts of different things cannabis related. So thanks for tuning in everybody. I'll see you next week.

2:49:28BubblemanPeace.