Induction Vaporizers and Sensory Science

0:02Etienne FontanAll right, look at that.

0:09Etienne FontanGood morning, Bubbleman.

0:11BubblemanGood morning. Welcome to Hash Church 3.0, episode 28. Episode 28.

0:18Etienne FontanWow, we're up to that already, huh? That was fast. And frozen.

0:28BubblemanThat's not a good sign. I hear you. Oh, good, good. I thought my internet connection's a little iffy. So let me share this into the room real quick so everyone can come over here and hang out with us.

0:45SpeakerAll right. This meeting is being live streamed.

0:50BubblemanWas that through your speaker?

0:51Etienne FontanYeah, I go to the YouTube to turn it on to figure out what's going on here. When I went there, went to an older video, it's like, oh, it's Bubble Band.

1:04BubblemanHey, what's going on? I should turn my camera on for gosh sakes. Yeah, everybody's just looking at me and going, wow, look at that stoner. What's going on with that guy? He seems hardcore. Speaking of stoner.

1:21BubblemanHere comes Kylie Stoner.

1:26Etienne FontanMorning, Kylie.

1:33Etienne FontanWell, it's a holiday morning, everybody. Good morning. Well, I guess it's a holiday season per se for those who like holidays to the season.

1:45Etienne FontanAnd let's see, pretty excited because next weekend is the Emerald Cups Ball, the Harvest Ball. So people are, needless to say, excited in Northern California because we finally get to hang out just in time for another variant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God.

2:08Etienne FontanRegardless, it's exciting to see. Hey, everybody, please send out love and prayers for Wade Laughter. Wade's kind of at home suffering. He's been working with us at his VAC and unfortunately has some health conditions that have him down and in bed. He's suffering right now. So anybody who can send love to Wade, please reach out to him and give him our best. He's suffering, unfortunately, for his broken ribs and things like that.

2:43Etienne FontanAnd he's just... Aaron Wade, Having a hard time right now. So any of those who you know, Wade, please reach out to him, send him love and give him support. He really needs it right now. He's in a low spot health wise, and he's working on getting his way back, but he's he's hurting and needs love. So please send it all to Wade right now.

3:06BubblemanDefinitely sending it to Wade. I spoke with him briefly a week or two ago and he was telling me about his ribs and his back and how he's just kind of laid out right now. So that's that's terrible to hear, especially because Wade's just the greatest person ever. Just like the most empathetic, compassionate, like kind human being. You can just hear it in his voice whenever he speaks.

3:26BubblemanSo our love is coming out to you for sure. Wade, the whole Hash Church family is thinking about you today and sending sending good vibes as 100 plus people in the room right now. And welcome to Kylie Stoner and Collin Palmer. How are you guys doing?

3:40SpeakerThanks for the invitation.

3:45Collin PalmerGood to finally meet you, Kylie. Been following your work for quite a bit. So some really amazing stuff, man. You know, still haven't had a chance to try your stuff, but I can't wait till the day when I get to do that.

4:00SpeakerHopefully sometime soon.

4:02Collin PalmerYeah. So you're doing all the trips across the states during COVID. Hopefully your gear is getting out to all the amazing people in the community to be able to understand how incredible the experience is. I mean, I know, you know, a lot of people, everyone that's tried your device has been hands down, seems to say all across the board, it's You know, the best that they've ever experienced.

4:28Collin PalmerSo kudos to you, man.

4:30BubblemanIndux Labs, Indux Labs. Trust me, we've been trying to like this whole, like this, the day I hooked up with Kylie, I swear to God, they made it so you couldn't ship their units to Canada.

4:43Etienne FontanLike it was like, what?

4:45BubblemanWhat do you mean you can't ship these units to Canada? So we're a little hurting up here. I did get an induction unit and I don't know what company it was from.

4:53Dr AllisonLet me grab it real quick.

4:59BubblemanI think the problem with this particular index unit is that it's just they haven't figured out how to how to make it more sensitive. It's just like it's insane. It like you can turn the bowl to like red hot vapor in like in half a second. And so I don't even know the name of the company, but this is the one that I got years ago and kind of got to taste A lot to see basically what it was potentially about.

5:28BubblemanAnd I don't, the name of this thing is like Loto Labs or something. Are you familiar with this unit?

5:33SpeakerI've seen that before.

5:35BubblemanYeah. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to bash the company, but it's, it's just, it's not, it's too much. There's no way to dial it to make it more sensitive. I mean, honestly, vape exhale is a much better unit for terpenes. This thing, but the thing that you have.

5:57BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

6:13BubblemanIt's just it's it's the one that I'm jonesing for so hardcore because I want to be able to dial in those profiles where you can kind of go through the terpene profile accessing different bouquets of flavor by just using you know that that sensitive I guess capabilities that your unit has. Maybe you can tell everyone a little bit about the unit and maybe talk about what inspired to create it and what was behind creating it and what you're kind of hoping that the unit helps, you know, unveil for the people of the cannabis community and industry, if you don't mind.

6:51SpeakerThere, no problem. I guess it was this discovery that, you know, the size, shape, quantity, and composition of the heating elements that you're loading into the vial control the temperature ramp and the vapor texture. Once that was determined, it was just plug and play, try everything possible to dial it in to get those different terpene profiles. So you can go extremely low and slow, like, From room temperature to 400 degrees over the course of 500 seconds, or are the units capable of hot dabs in six seconds?

7:27SpeakerIt really depends what you're looking for. You can use it as an analytical tool if you want by running the slower ramps, or some people just like pulling huge clouds and that's possible as well.

7:42BubblemanWhy don't we go through the difference between, you know, convection, conduction, induction. Why don't you talk a little bit about the sort of popular vaporizers that are on the market and why the index is really quite something different.

7:56SpeakerI think it all comes down to temperature control. You know, I'm using induction to heat a heating element, but it's actually conduction that's heating the The substances. So induction is a clean form of heating and you have an extreme amount of control. So, you know, I just found that that gives more control than say heating an insulator. You know, insulators aren't the greatest at heating. Yeah, they're pure, but you lose control.

8:25SpeakerSo, you know, I have titanium elements. I have steel elements. I have glass elements.

8:33SpeakerAll of these elements with a steel core, the titanium ones have the most control because you're directly heating the surface in a slow manner through eddy current. It's like a resistor. Then when you use the glow sticks, I call them, which are the steel elements encased in glass, that heats up a lot faster. But that energy in the core has to transfer through the glass shell to then heat concentrate.

9:03SpeakerSo it's a smooth presentation, but you just don't have quite the control you have when you're directly feeding on that light. So.

9:10Collin PalmerHey, Kyle, a question. So I've spoken to other researchers that are looking at just conduction and just how heat and thermodynamics are working. In your experience, are you finding most of the individuals I'm speaking to seem to believe that 316 is like, In terms of a heating element, like a material for heating, it is kind of the best in terms of thermal, like the way that it heats up.

9:40Collin PalmerIs that what you're finding? I mean, I'm not saying I know. I'm just really curious to understand your opinion, I guess, because I guess these are really opinions at this stage of the game in some respects, right? Of course.

9:55SpeakerYou know, 316L, 304, 304L, those are austenitic stainless steels, medical grade.

10:02Collin PalmerYeah.

10:04SpeakerYou know, they're non-magnetic, so they heat similar to the titanium, a little bit slower, but to be honest, you get better flavor off the grade two titanium.

10:12Collin PalmerInteresting. Yeah, so that would be my, my hunch was like, interesting, 316 or 304 sounds awesome, but hey, Mark, but at the same time, it seems like it's inefficient in terms of like the way it ramps through. You know, like, if you're looking at it from like a curve, you know, it seems like it's just like, it's like a triangle wave or something. It just like peaks and then goes down where it seems like other elements have a more of a curve to it, the way that it kind of ramps up and goes through the, you know, just through the different ranges of temperatures, you know, because let's face it, all of these, these chemicals have a boiling point, right?

10:51Collin PalmerAnd, you know, going through those temperature ranges really, I think, It does help the experience and the profile and taste.

11:00SpeakerYou know, dial it in to go through whatever, you know, temperature range at the rate you want to.

11:05Collin PalmerRight.

11:07SpeakerIt takes a little bit of experimentation to, you know, plug in the different heating, the exactly the effect you're going for, both flavor and, you know, cerebral effect is combined. The 316 That can be manipulated, size and shape of it, kind of tailor the temperature ramps. I've played around with it some, but really I'm just working with the grade two titanium and some other materials. I'm working on a new material that is giving me really good results.

11:42SpeakerI'm not willing to say what it is right now.

11:49Collin PalmerSo what do you think out of any, all the elements you have, like, In terms of just experience, in terms of taste and delivery, are you feeling that there's a better, more efficient one than the other? Or are they just, like you're saying, very just different from one another?

12:06SpeakerOh, well, they're all different. I mean, you know, you can load 13 1.6 millimeter titanium grade two rods into the vial at the same time. And get one experience. You add one, it heats up a little bit faster. You take one away, it heats up a little bit slower. So you tailor the experience that way. So really, it's all determined by the heating element. It's pretty amazing.

12:29SpeakerAre we talking about the, or sorry, Kyle, are we talking about the index? Yes. I, yeah, I love them. Sorry. You guys got me a, Well and truly faded at MJ BizCon in Vegas a couple years ago. I remember very well. How you been? Great. Working with Fine Folk like yourself and Marcus and getting to talk all the fun stuff. I went to BizCon again. I got a little reluctant when I saw you out there, but back then it was like no one knew about the machine, no one to try it, and it was a beautiful paperweight desk.

13:11SpeakerChris Brown, You know, now people are starting to learn about it, what it's capable of, and the response is very good. I pimp it hard. The way I describe it is like, it's like being able to consume via GC. Because the, the, the, I mean, the sequential elution of the compounds that we, that I experienced was, you know, Like, it was like, okay, well, there's limonene, there's a simonene, there's turpentine, turpentine, and then, oh, there's a THC.

13:42SpeakerAnd it was, it was, it was wonderful. That stacks. The nice thing is, is you can control, since you have, you know, control over the ramp, you can control the compounds. You're going to just work your way through their individual boiling points. And, uh, you know, you cut it off when you get the effect you're looking for. So.

14:05BubblemanIt sounds incredible, dude. I'm just jonesing. I can't tell you. It's been like two and a half years that I've been trying to get my hands on one of these units. And, you know, many years ago when someone said, oh, what do you see as the perfect futuristic sort of medical device? And I said, wow, I mean, in a perfect world, it would be pretty cool if you had kind of a box very much like what yours looks like.

14:26BubblemanAnd then I pictured little glass vials that kind of fit inside the box with like All the novel cannabinoids that you want to have access to, all of the terpene profiles, and then hopefully the deeper aromatic volatiles that are having an effect on it as well. And then just dialing in through some type of an algorithm exactly like, oh, what cultivar is the ghost train haze? Oh, this is what ghost train haze is.

14:50BubblemanAnd then you just plug it into the machine, and the machine just takes out little bits of whatever it needs to create that profile. I think that you're good halfway there with this unit. And I've only heard great things from amazing people.

15:06SpeakerThat's awesome. I'm really happy to hear all this. And I'm so excited to be a part of this project and finally get this thing, you know, used in a way, you know, I've done. But, you know, I'm kind of limited in my capacity, but to have you guys on board is fantastic.

15:25BubblemanYeah, so what Kylie's talking about is we'll give a little bit of a public mention. Just Nick and I have been kind of going back and forth on email. We brought in Kylie a while ago and some other sort of people. I'm just trying to create a little bit of a think tank, you know, like a little bit of a sensory science think tank with We've got a unique group of people, inclusive, of course, and just trying to get it to the point where we can have, like Nick mentioned, having a shared lexicon would be very important, but also having a shared unit that people are able to go through these different experiences, have these different effects from different plants and extracts.

16:05BubblemanAnd it's just kind of an exciting rabbit hole that I've been looking to go down further and further. The really, since I met Nick and Jeremy and I heard the term sensory science, it seems to be hand in hand with what, you know, our discussions are here on Hash Church. So, you know, that's going to happen in the future, sort of behind closed doors. But I figured, hey, why don't we, you know, get on a Hash Church and have a little bit of a conversation about.

16:32SpeakerLost Marcus.

16:33Collin PalmerUh oh.

16:35Etienne FontanThat's Starlink. It's going to happen like that to him from time to time. He's going to stretch.

16:40SpeakerElon.

16:41Etienne FontanHe'll be back.

16:42BubblemanYeah, Elon. Or at least you mentioned. What's that?

16:45SpeakerMarcus, we lost you for a minute there, buddy.

16:47BubblemanDon't worry about it. You guys just keep going. I was just blowing smoke up your guys' ass. Well, this... At least you're honest.

16:57SpeakerI thought I felt a tingle. Can I interject here a little bit? Yeah. So, one of the things that I was working on the last time I was on, or I sort of All right, so I'm going to wrap that up with my former life was really trying to establish a unified sensory program for hops. And there's a tremendous amount of overlap. But really, the experience that I had was that developing a system and a program for characterizing aromatics and eventually, of course, quantifying them, or quantitating them if you're talking in GCLC land, But in this case was really getting everybody on the same page.

17:44SpeakerAnd so using certain standards to define what the principal components were that were leading to the aromatics and then what we would agree to call them. And so in creating a shared sensory lexicon, we're able to then assign numbers to The levels that we detect them at, and we can characterize people as well in terms of their sensitivities and blindnesses. And what that allowed us to do was to start to create a sort of a rating scale for each characteristic.

18:19SpeakerSo sometimes it would be citrus, underscore, lime, citrus, underscore, grapefruit, you know, so forth like that, or tropical fruit, underscore, guava, underscore, mango, and all, and usually these things. And that allowed us to create much better pictures of the botanical in front of us. And so this was because we discovered that basically a lot of the compounds that are important for identifying a given chemovar of hop were not actually relevant to beer at all.

18:57SpeakerThey didn't make it a solution. Aaron Wittes, And it's for cannabis it's a little bit different. Aaron Wittes, But the ability to characterize the the components and then the sensory picture of what was there was massive and you know with Dr Russo's work on the entourage effect and the. Aaron Wittes, impact of. The aromatic fractions on the therapeutic benefits of cannabis. I think that there's, the time is ripe for really getting together and creating a industry standard lexicon.

19:33SpeakerYou know, not necessarily that we're going to dictate what people smell and taste and think about it. Nick Wigginton, But that we at least have reference standards so that even though to me it might smell like. Nick Wigginton, Say durian because i've been to Thailand and you know grew up in Southeast Asia someone else might describe that as garlic pineapple and diesel in their own mind, but we agree to call it.

19:57SpeakerNick Wigginton, X, Y or Z, you know and each region is going to have its different its own lexicon, for example, the Midwest might have something called sticker salad. Um, which is, was, I was introduced to recently and it was very confusing and it's not a range of flavors that I was familiar with at all. Um, and then there's no vegetable or fruit in it. Um, but it, you know, that's it, it does smell kind of very distinctive.

20:19SpeakerAnd so someone from the Midwest would say, oh yeah, that's, that's X, Y, or Z. And someone from say Seattle would go, what the hell are you talking about? I don't even know what that means. But to me, it smells like chocolate caramel, whipped cream and marshmallows. All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

20:55SpeakerAll right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today.

21:24SpeakerAll right. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started.

21:49SpeakerAnd the stretch goal beyond this is then to look at if we can apply the same methodology to the typing of human phenotypes and the interaction with the various chemovars so that we can see that, OK, if you are from this genetic background, you I'm going to give you a little bit of an overview of what we're going to be talking about today. I'm going to give you a little bit of an overview of what we're going to be talking about today.

22:20SpeakerI'm going to give you a little bit of

22:40SpeakerAnd that's incredibly powerful because right now it's kind of a roll of the dice.

22:49Collin PalmerSo here's a question. So roll the dice and developing a phonetic and then ultimately a language that we can agree on to your point, right? Some sort of system or theories of systems that relates to one another. Now, I guess this may be directed towards Dr. Mark, but you know, How do we really start to encompass and circle around the ideology of this is right for a patient A, inpatient B, but not patient C, right?

23:18Collin PalmerAnd that seems like nearly impossible to me, you know? So because we have such, you know, the EC is so understudied and just, we have such a long way to go. So circling around the ideology that we're gonna say, Hey, definitively A and B are going to be this and C is going to be that. I feel like we're, we have so much research to go. And I just wonder what are the, what are the thoughts that we all collectively have, you know, today that could get us closer to understanding how we could get towards talking in those ways, right?

23:53Collin PalmerNot saying that we're going to definitively define something, but what are the steps you think that we can take to get closer to that?

24:02BubblemanI'll be the beer industry.

24:06SpeakerIt wasn't just the beer industry. It was specific that we kind of upended it. The team that I built upended it because we saw this path forward. And we only got as far, you know, we only got 60% of the way there. And that's kind of why I mentioned

24:24SpeakerNick Wiggins, That to get to the quantitation and. Nick Wiggins, Analysis of the effects of therapeutic effects that's. Nick Wiggins, That will take you know RCTs and. Nick Wiggins, You know clinical trials or clinical level clinical level trials. Nick Wiggins, In terms of quality, not necessarily massive size to be able to determine it. And, you know, we would want to use diverse populations. So, you know, well, diverse populations, and so multiple countries, but also multiple genetic backgrounds.

25:05SpeakerAnd it will take a while. But if we get everybody used to talking and used to thinking in shared terms, That is an achievable goal.

25:20SpeakerI don't personally, I think that, you know, the fact that I mean, just looking at fitness and looking at health and looking at what people consume for food, you know, everyone wakes up at a different time, goes to bed at a different time, has a different schedule, metabolic. You know, some of them aren't getting enough sunlight. Some aren't, you know, their circadian rhythm is off. All these things are wrong with people.

25:46SpeakerAnd I think that when you, for us to sit here and try to, and I love the idea, but I just think that the approach, we can't even get people to agree on a vaccine. We can't get people to agree on anything. So I don't understand how, I think this is such a huge task because I could take all of you right now, you know, us as the subject, And how do you apply this even to us?

26:11SpeakerWe're educated. We understand this. We have an understanding of these things. We can communicate at this level. We know what esters are and flavonoids, and we understand all these things. But I think it's so slow to the process of us educating the rest of the people and then expecting them You know like what Colin said it's it's a b and c how I really don't see it being possible except in a way where it's a number of questions that allow people to to let us know how they feel to let us know after they've used something how it made them feel and sort of just let them develop that for themselves um because even just like I said in fitness it's like I've got people coming to me and being like, oh, you know, this much protein and take this and take that.

26:59SpeakerAnd half of that shit, you know, I could drink a little bit of salt water before I work out and get a better pre-workout than most of the other shit. It's these little tiny things. People are selling something. And I would feel like from an educated standpoint, collectively, it would almost appear like we were trying to fit people into a box that don't fit into because I mean, even, even, I mean, the years and years and years and years of, of, you know, ATN, you know, is a perfect example of having a dispensary and always putting together these really well, well thought out, you know, interactive experiences with people to get an understanding of what they think of cannabis.

27:36SpeakerI feel like people vary too much. Cannabis varies too much and you're intoxicating people at the same time. So it's almost like the fifth hour of a, uh, Thank you so much for joining us.

28:18SpeakerYou know, for us collectively, I think that it's, it's a series of questions and it's a series, like a comfortable, real, just, oh, cool. And the people that are intelligent enough to want to answer those questions because they want that understanding, they're going to go forward. But we really need to admit to ourselves that 90, 90% of the people consuming cannabis are just trying to get high.

28:39SpeakerThey're just trying to forget about the dude that just cut them off and all these other things. And I think that. I love the idea. I would love to accomplish this. I just think that it's going to look like Charlie standing at the board with all that shit behind him and the crazy hair. I swear to God that I think that every one of us wants this.

29:04SpeakerI just think that we will all be dead by the time it's done. I don't think so. Does that make it not worth doing then? Oh, no, I love doing shit like this. Please don't get me wrong. And yeah, I mean, that's that's kind of my point is that this is what everybody said about the hop industries that we could never get anybody to agree.

29:24SpeakerThe meal guards, a very simplistic definition of like seven, seven different major attributes from the German perspective. I always say I'm on the record of making fun of the Germans, but that's definitely started it. So let's be fair here. But

29:41SpeakerAaron We did it. It took a couple of years, but we also were we were vertically integrated as a company. OK, so we controlled not only the farming, but also the processing and the distribution to clients. And so this would have to be an industry We were trying to develop an industry standard and not trying to, we're not trying to box people in. We're trying to give people more information about what's in their cannabis.

30:09SpeakerSo, um, when we say that, you know, we'll be able to, and again, I say that the, the effects are like that's way in the future. Okay. That, that, those, those results are way far down the line. Um, but at least being able to show, you know, that this one tastes like citrus grapefruit, but this one tastes like citrus lime. Nick Wiggins, Because these compounds are in this particular ratio, and so it does it will originally need to involve a lot of GC work, but it will refer it also need us to come together as.

30:43SpeakerNick Wiggins, Groups slash industry so people with dispensary owners sensory scientists growers processors and say Okay, you know we're not trying to put people into. Adam Wendel, Edmonton State University, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences,

31:15SpeakerNick Wigginton, That lexicon that that language to describe things and it sort of grows organically from there, because we are all using. Nick Wigginton, We agree that even though we may think this might trigger a different concept like I like to use the example of. Nick Wigginton, You know, someone once gave me notes like Oh, this was this reminds me of when I walked into my grandmother's house that she had sugar cones, rather than waffle cones.

31:38SpeakerNick Wiggins, Like well that's very specific to you and very meaningful and probably means a lot, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Nick Wiggins, And so, so we wanted to try to limit people's like ah what a chunker. Nick Wiggins, So the bro science and the like. Nick Wiggins, Dude this is like.

32:01Etienne FontanWe still can't get past Indica and Sativa with people. Okay. Simplest of nomenclature. So I respect where you're coming from. And as somebody who's been doing this for 20 years, I agree exactly what, you know, Addison was stating is that there's a small percentage of people who have fucks to give about it. The rest of the people, Brandon Krenzler, Brandon Krenzler, You know, don't understand, but I'm one of those people who has that fucks to give.

32:28Etienne FontanSo I want to know, I do want to understand, because the biggest problem I get from patients every single day is, hi, I've got cancer. What's my cancer, bud? Hi, I've got this. Where's my this bud? And it's like, sorry, it's completely subjective. You've got to go try everything to get an understanding. And I do like the new way that science is going in the sense that we're going by terpene profiles now as opposed to going across this indica sativa misinformation, which has so much of the public confused.

33:02Etienne FontanThey're coming in, I want something that doesn't lock me down on the couch. Oh, that's great. What doesn't? And they look at me like, I don't know. Exactly. You don't know, I don't know. And since it's completely subjective, all we can go is by science to help us arrive there. So science I think is key once we, because there's people right now that are actually using gene science of humans to try to match them with terpene profiles And I think that's a new frontier that sounds like a lot of quackery, but it has some basis in real science.

33:40Etienne FontanIt has to be executed. It's going to take time. And already, I mean, when did McPartland and Rob Clark put out their book, Educating People on Indica and Sativa, and how many years later we're still talking about that. You see what I'm saying? Unfortunately, because we change laws and then educate people about things, we've got a steep uphill of education. So I appreciate what you're doing, and I want to see more of what you're doing.

34:08Etienne FontanHowever, it's a long way till we arrive there, but I'm interested in the path and the journey, and I appreciate where you're coming from.

34:15SpeakerI have a quick question for everyone, and I hate to interrupt. What is it that occurs when each of us gets sick of a strain or tired of a strain and then has to go to other strains? You know, I mean, I've got the legends kit in front of me and there's a no, I mean, the profiles are crazy on this, but even when it goes from, from my taste or my preference to go from rosin to melt, what, you know, because that's why I'm, I'm sort of like, we ever pull this off because even in my own self, You know, it's a cloudy day and this, and there's all these things that apply.

34:55SpeakerSo it's, I agree with you. I think it would be great to lay out some, or to begin the process of getting this out there and sort of saying, hey, lemon, lime, all these things. But it seems like such a giant task to tackle. What I'd like to understand more is how you guys actually tackled it. I'm on your side. And the, the, you know, the fact that, you know, when you're talking about hops and terpenes and beer, you know, of course it's, it's, you put that glass up to your face, you give it a smell.

35:27SpeakerIf the smell's okay, you're going to give it a sip. If you, if the, if it's in your mouth and it tastes all right, you're going to swallow it, right? It's, it's that process. And I wonder for you guys, like, what is it that, how did you guys get to that point, you know, to, to get that understanding? Right. So, um, it was, okay, I will describe sort of what I set up from the beginning.

35:54SpeakerUm, and, uh, you know, I'll try to go through the program overview in general of how I built it, and then we can go, go from there. And none of this is proprietary information. This is like well documented on, on, on Yakima Chief's website. So, um, basically, um, we, When you assess a botanical, there's a couple of different things that matter. One is a true to type value, which is that this is consistent across this variety within a couple of standard deviations, so generally two, off of the mean for its environment, because there's a strong G by E interaction.

36:36SpeakerSo you might see this if you're growing in cocoa, Adam Pave, M.D. : For cannabis growing in cocoa, if you're going deep water culture, if you're going living soil, if you're going semi-organic, so on and so forth, and using LEDs versus HIDs versus so on and so forth, those are all factors that need to be considered. In outdoor crops, it's infinitely more complex. But once you have that true to type score, it's a plus one, meaning one standard deviation over in X, Y, and Z characteristic.

37:07SpeakerWell, We didn't have those characteristics. Okay. So we didn't know what we were looking at. We were looking at a PCA to start with, which was total oil and, um, uh, the like total alpha basically. So, so basically it would be like looking at total amount of aromatic compounds possible and THC count. Right. Which is pretty, that's about where the industry was two years ago, three years ago.

37:32SpeakerOkay. And in cannabis and it's getting, it's getting, getting better. Okay. But from that point on, we're like, okay, well, hang on. There's a lot more going on here. So we used a standard metric for analyzing botanical. So using a GC, and then we did a sensory evaluation. And using the standard method, we noticed that these two different varieties were grown by the same grower. So that was actually a nice control.

38:02SpeakerAaron We're showing up as statistically indistinguishable using the seven point metric for the oils that were being used. And it happened to be Mosaic and what is now called Sabro. And anybody in the beer industry can tell you that those two hops do not smell anything alike. So we noticed that, okay, there's something that our standard method is not picking up. So we started doing a two-pronged approach, which is that we We analyzed through sensory every single lot, and we decided the terms ahead of time.

38:34SpeakerSo that took about six months to decide what the lexicon was going to be. And so we take the major categories like herbal, woody, earthy, fruity, dank, vegetal, onion, garlic slash diesel flavors. Yeah, like all those things together. And then nice.

38:59SpeakerI might have to do that in a second. And then you take all those and write, so you develop your basically your flavor wheel and you say, okay, in fruity, you have the option of citrus, tropical, you know, palm fruit, red berry, you know, those things. And then you specify beyond that. So like in your berry, you can say blackberry, raspberry, blueberry, marian berry, so on and so forth.

39:25SpeakerAll of those things. And then you can assign a number, which was a one to five scale, basically, or one to 10 scale. And it can be any integer between, it can be like a 5.5 or something like that. Incidentally, we found we got better data with a smaller scale because people are lazy and they gravitate towards mean. But what that allowed us to do was then say, okay, This is what we are talking.

39:55SpeakerThese are the terms we're using. This is how we're describing it. And then we put those samples through a GC. And we had, we've got two different GC, or we had two different, I had two different GCs, one with an olfactory port and one with a sulfur, a sulfur cumulonessence detector, which allowed us to look at thiols and thioates. And so what we're able to do is, you know, smell the sample as it's going through the GC and correlate, All right, so we're going to go ahead and get started.

40:37SpeakerSo we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started.

41:02SpeakerHey, thanks, man. Really cool topic here today. So GC stands for gas chromatograph. And so for those of you who don't know, you're taking a sample of material and injecting it into an injector port that's typically a 200 centigrade or sometimes it's a 250. I think we keep ours at 200 in the lab. So certainly if you look at a terpene profile at room temperature and you look at a terpene profile at 200 degrees centigrade, you could very much see differences because chemistry happens, man.

41:42SpeakerYou can't just assume that you're going to inject this stuff in an oxygen atmosphere, heat these compounds up, which have multiple sites of unsaturation, and you're not going to undergo some type of chemical transformation By the time you get to the either olfactory or whatever detector you're using. So how do you reconcile a room temperature terpene profile with a terpene profile that's been heated to 200 degrees?

42:10SpeakerSo this takes time, but you, first of all, you should get a GC that has the capability to do different ramps. And so you start at slightly below room temperature. I try to keep this low tech, a low tech question. Yeah, but so basically we use different temperamps just kind of like what Kyle was talking about earlier, which is that if you find the vaporization point under different conditions, you can run under vacuum, you can run under pressure, and even stretch those chromatograms out a little bit more, and you are able to capture what is coming off at each given temperature.

42:46SpeakerAnd for cannabis, it's almost kind of besides the point because our room temperature is not how we consume these. We smoke them.

42:56Collin PalmerWell, it's sometimes how we, we extract them. Right. And how, I guess back to the other, another question I had, how are you differentiating mono chirps and sesquiterps from other types of, of compounds and how is that together? You know, how's that data together, you know, reading to you is that, is that actually giving you some kind of wherewithal as to, okay, this variety is reacting this way at this temperature, but Adam Pave, It's not reacting that way at let's say you know 180 versus 120.

43:29SpeakerAdam Pave, Well okay so so there's a couple of different layers here so. Adam Pave, yeah. Adam Pave, we're talking about like just basically you i'm talking about getting it getting it into the detector first. Adam Pave, With that okay. Adam Pave, So we have reference libraries, for you know all identified compounds and you get a. And I see as a common one, but there's some other ones you can build your own if you identify them and you know the attributes of those compounds under at ambient pressure and temperature and what their vapor vaporization temperatures are, but they're the VP is the, you know,

44:17Collin PalmerPPM, things like that, right?

44:18SpeakerWell, no, no. So PPM is just a measurement of them. And so with the threshold, with the average threshold is like, so ChemSpider and PubChem and the GoodSense company have a lot of good data on all these things. But their databases are not always complete. The NIST is a fantastic one, National Institute of something or other, but databases. National Institute of Standards and Technology. Thank you, sir.

44:46SpeakerAnd you compare these to what are known and you get a confidence interval. So basically you say like, okay, this is geraniol versus geranyl acetate. Geranyl acetate, it's a 67% chance that it's going to be geranyl acetate, but it's a 95% chance that it's geranyl.

45:05SpeakerAdam Wendel, Edmonton, It's likely geranium. Okay. And there is, there is some coalition sometimes where you get to things that go together and you also get compounds that interfere with each other when they're, they're All right, so we're going to talk a little bit more about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk a little bit more about what we're going to talk about today.

45:26SpeakerSo we're going to talk a little bit more about what we're going to

45:37SpeakerAll right, so we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started.

46:03SpeakerAll right, so we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started.

46:31SpeakerAnd so you know there's something else going there. And pharmacy doesn't have that many things that co-elute with it, so we're pretty comfortable just using it for the entire family of them. And they don't interact differently with our sensory program, or sorry, our organoleptic senses. Once you start doing that, you start getting a much better picture of... All right, so we're going to go ahead and get started.

47:01SpeakerSo we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to get started.

47:27SpeakerHowever, there's other times when you don't see a peak and you detect something that is really interesting. So this happened for us with a very specific aroma of peach and apricot. And we weren't seeing anything on one of our GCs. So that told us that something was eluding at that moment, but it was outside the resolution. So we changed the resolution and lo and behold, we were able to identify two compounds that were associated with, you know, for our sensory panel of about 40 people, peach and apricot.

48:04SpeakerOkay. So you, so it goes both ways. The sensory helps inform the quantitative science, and then the science helps create reference standards for sensory. So you have to do both together.

48:19Collin PalmerSo here's a third. Here's the other third piece, I think, at least I believe through the years that I've come to really respect more is the psychology of things and how as a younger self, you're trained literally like all of us. We are all trained to learn and know things such as taste, smell, things that we love, right? And they carry into today as an older self.

48:43Collin PalmerAnd when someone says they like linalool forward things, it's like, oh, did you like grape juice as a kid? And most of the time it's yes, you know, or I love, or I love Calio. I don't know why. Well, did you love citrus as a kid? You know, and all these things kind of make, are starting to kind of make more sense as I get older and we interact with more and more patients and speak in these terms.

49:08Collin PalmerAnd that's kind of the dumbed down version, the layman's term, if you will, of it all. But I think that's extremely informative to the bioassay. Aaron Wendel, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students,

49:40Collin PalmerI don't know. It just feels to me like there's there's more. I really think it's amazing. Like it's all these things together, I think, can help inform one another. You know, it's the art and science in a way.

49:52BubblemanI'm just excited to where it will lead us. I mean, think about when we didn't know how to how to flower plants and everyone was just growing leaf. And then someone was like, hey, you got to cut the light down and, you know, you'll get some bugs on there. And, you know, like I there's there's great things that we have yet to uncover. And I think the rabbit hole that Nick is mentioning, it's not supposed to be the be all end all, but it's going to create some incredible side missions in the game of cannabis.

50:18BubblemanYeah. The dialog. Right.

50:19SpeakerAnd while

50:23SpeakerAnd I guess I want to play a little bit of the devil's advocate while I really appreciate all of the standards and everything that sort of puts it into common language. And that is the same as when you standardize anything. So say when the Phillips screwdriver was standardized, it took away a thousand different instruments and different tools that other people were using all around the world. So what this does is it gives us a common language, but it also takes away individualistic language.

51:00SpeakerSo me as a practitioner, when I'm talking to people, I want them to use their language of whatever they want, because that tells them more, that tells me more about their constitution. Now, if they're using language that is already, you know, in some kind of a format, then they're using someone else's language. They're using someone else's tool. And what concerns me is in standardizing cannabis and standardizing Thank you so much for joining us today.

51:55SpeakerFor people all over the world that have a very intuitive, very sacred relationship with this plant. And that sacred relationship is also how I personally, as a health practitioner, Thank you so much for joining us.

52:36SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

53:00SpeakerAll of these things are possible historically. And so it worries me of this sort of homogenization that we are creating within the cannabis industry, again, creating hoops that we can't jump through further on. Because this is a fractal medicine. Every single person has a different relationship with it. And it fractals in different heat, in different areas, in different zones.

53:27BubblemanWell, you said every single person has their own and this just happens to be ours. And so you have to accept it just like you want to accept yours. They're both just as valid.

53:40SpeakerAnd well, here's another, let me, I'm worried that people are, I'm worried that you've misinterpreted kind of what the goal is. The goal is not to put people into boxes. The goal is to give us terms so that we can run it against All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

54:08SpeakerWe're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today.

54:26SpeakerAnd it does, as you pointed out, each patient has a different historical relationship to the sensations that arise from these compounds. And if leveraged judiciously, you can create a lexicon that encompasses 95% of those things.

54:50SpeakerAaron Waite, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken,

55:15SpeakerI presented a very simplified version, but my initial draft of the program that I designed had a dropdown menu of at least 20 different iterations of aromas for each subcategory. It was ridiculous. It was too bulky to use. But in terms of simplifying it and then We also allow people to put down their own notes in everything. Okay. And so this, so this, like you mentioned mothballs and cedar, right?

55:43SpeakerWell, mothballs are camphor, cedars, cedarin, and a couple of other different compounds and alpha-pinene and beta-pinene. So. Mothballs are naphthalene. Yeah. Not even a terpene at all. It's a fused, fused aromatic compound. If you smell camphor and you smell naphthalene, you'll see the difference between the two. Great. Thank you. It's weird because I've got camphor mothballs as well, which was maybe because it was in the UK.

56:19SpeakerI think they tried to make a more natural... I was just going to say, naphthalene is a heavy hydrocarbon that I think they found was toxic, so they tried to phase that out. But years ago, that's what they used.

56:45SpeakerBrad Harkness, And Nathalene also comes from, you can get it from petrochemicals, but you can also get it from pine sap, from certain pines, you know, and creosote bushes. Brad Harkness, So just a quick backup, though, is that one thing I also want to talk about is that we're not discussing terpenes, because The Terps are only a fraction of what is aromatically active in cannabis. So amen, man, you see all these people talk about terpenes and where I get kind of confused on this is as a chemist, I think of terpenes as oligomers of isoprene, completely hydrocarbon.

57:30SpeakerAnd as soon as you have an alcohol or as soon as you have an oxygen or a sulfur in there, It's no longer a terpene, it's a terpenoid. It used to be a terpene, but now these things are doing chemistry and they're making terpenoids. And terpenoids is a much wider class of molecules. So linalool, that's a terpenoid, right? Because it's a terpene alcohol. You know, so again, this speaks, Nick, to the broken lexicon in cannabis, right?

58:00SpeakerWhich is that, you know, whether it's sativa, indica, or You know people are constantly confusing All kinds of terms when it comes to trying.

58:11BubblemanBut it also shows the flip side, Mark, of the shared lexicon that people have learned about terpenes in the last several years that they're all now using. And I think that that's empowering sometimes. So it's like, you know, I love the idea that science is over here doing this and you've got the more spiritual aspect over here. And the beautiful thing about cannabis is exactly what Kelly said.

58:32BubblemanIt's a fractal, which means everything has its place. Thank you so much for joining us today.

59:00BubblemanBrad Higgins, The deep chemistry of it and how that sort of interacts and, you know, the feelings that I'm having. I want to understand all of these things. So I really kind of have a foot in both in both places.

59:14Collin PalmerYeah, no, I couldn't agree more, Mark. I think it's like. Look, this is only healthy because There's so many times when I wish I could have these broader conversations and Mark said it beautifully, terpenoids is a great term and I just say them aromatic chemicals. I just, I don't, I just even go.

59:32SpeakerYeah, but the problem there, Colin, the problem there to a chemist like myself, when I hear aromatic, yeah, I guess in a general sense, that's aroma containing compounds or compounds that have an aroma, right? But aromatic to a chemist, to an organic chemist, We've got a couple more questions. We've got a couple more questions. We've got a couple more questions. We've got a couple more questions.

1:00:21SpeakerTerpenes, sesquiterpenes, diterpenes, but it also encompasses the wider class of molecule, which is terpenoids. And it's the terpenoids, I think, that really create a huge amount of molecular diversity in the sense of fragrances that we're able to sense. You know, the smell of scents, or I'm sorry, the sense of smell rather, This is the most primitive sense that we have. I think it was the first before vision, before sight, before touch.

1:00:56SpeakerSmell was a very, very important evolutionary trait to have for survival.

1:01:02Collin PalmerYeah, no doubt. One other thing I wanted to bring up is environment for these seven varietals. They're going to express different traits from the chemotype itself. Every single time you change its feeding cycle, its BPD, PPFD, its root zone temperatures. I mean, there's so many things that are contributing, I think, to even like water deprivation. There's so many things, I think, that allow these things to go in different directions during the cultivation aspect of things that I think we've yet to really truly understand in terms of controlling.

1:01:39SpeakerSo this speaks to the point, Colin, that I was mentioning earlier to Nick, like when you walk through the grow, you're not heating those terpene profiles up to 200 degrees centigrade. You're walking through the grow and basically getting a room temperature, you know, inhalation of, and when you pinch the bud, you're not sending it through a injection port at 200 degrees. So I think just my point to Nick before was while we conveniently use Thank you for joining us today.

1:02:37SpeakerLet's look at terpenylene. For example, terpenylene is a great example because an isomer of terpenylene is limonene, right? And I think in terpenylene, can't there be like four different isomers because there's two double bonds that could walk around in that ring structure itself. So I think whether you're looking at gamma terpenylene or whether you're looking at alpha terpenylene or whether you're looking at limonene, These things are going to have very, very different organoleptic properties.

1:03:09SpeakerNot always. You'd be surprised. And it depends very much on the compound. And that's kind of the point is that, as I was mentioning about farnesine earlier as an example, I know that one. And those all present pretty much the same way in terms of the aroma bucket. Nick Wiggins, And it's not to say that each individually would not present differently, but when they all come out together and they bind to the same receptors, the whole moiety is giving you that experience.

1:03:51SpeakerAnd it may be the case with say terpenylene and its various isomers that they pretty much will Nick Wiggins, Edmonton Public Health District, Heffernanburg District, Heffernanburg District, Heffernanburg District, Heffernanburg District, Heffernanburg District,

1:04:28SpeakerAaron Wendel, Kelly, other things that are there. And one of what my program, my approach to this is, is like, let's actually get a whole bunch more buckets because we don't just want to use PCA because it really dulls the colors and narrows the ability to talk about things. So we want to look at really

1:04:52SpeakerNick Wigginton, As much specificity as we can reasonably get, and we can try to get it to the different use conditions. So vaporization, straight up smoking, edibles, and we're talking about the gut microbiome and the gut ECS, that's an entirely different thing. But you don't want to just Nick Wigginton, Edmonton, Over reduce it down to single compounds, one compound, one effect. Nick Wigginton, Edmonton, That's the FDA and the whole drug classification has proven that that doesn't work right.

1:05:25SpeakerAnd you just kind of need to put in the work to get as much information as you can and then All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about how we're going to run analyzes on these databases against sensory, against GC chemistry and LC chemistry, and then whatever other metrics you want to use.

1:05:50SpeakerBut the value we get from that does not just only allow us to discuss and perhaps better characterize individual lots of cannabis, but also allows growers to have information as to what their particular treatment of a given strain is doing to the terpene and to the actual chemovar expression. And it's an incredibly powerful All of these are tools, the value of which is almost impossible to quantify until you start playing with it.

1:06:23SpeakerAnd I think like, so like, you know, there's a lot of, I mean, in growing, oh my God, there's so much bro science about like, you know, you know, 48 hours of light deprivation to increase the THC and, you know, using the different light levels. And then there's the whole flushing argument, you know, it's all anecdotal. And there is absolute value in anecdotal experience. But until you begin to really rigorously try to understand why these things are happening, there's a lot of noise and the signal gets lost.

1:07:01SpeakerAnd so what I'm trying to do is, what I'm proposing is basically let's work on a system where we try to collect as much information as we can. And assemble it into a database that will allow us to start statistically answering some of these questions. And it's, you know, it'll be a while, but it doesn't matter. Like this isn't necessarily, it doesn't matter if it takes forever, because we're going to constantly be learning more things.

1:07:36SpeakerAnd we're also constantly going to be refining our understanding of All right. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to get started.

1:08:11SpeakerYou know, again, like I've run into this a few times where people want to call caryophylline, which is a sesquiterpene, they want to call it a cannabinoid because it binds to CB2. It's like, wait a second. You don't classify compounds by what receptors they bind to. You classify them by what the structure of the compound is. So... Yeah, I mean, I always like to think that cannabinoids are cannabinoids and terpenoids are terpenoids.

1:08:44SpeakerI think that it's interesting, Addison, because if you looked at like terpene profiles, like when you guys first started way back when, and now, yeah, you're getting a pretty broad swath of terpene, sesquiterpenes, terpenoids, you know, the most common ones in cannabis. And maybe this is, again, more of a question for Nick. It still seems like there's an unknown fraction of compounds in the volatile organic compound collection that we still can't quite put our finger on because if the folks at True Terpenes try to create the sour diesel terpene profile so they can put it in a jar and sell it, it all, to me anyway, my sense tells me that those things all Michael Sink, M.D.

1:09:36Speaker: Basically taste the same and they're kind of missing the point that they're only looking at maybe a handful of the terpenes and terpenoids that are in there, but what really makes a big impact are all those compounds that are in there at such a low level that we can't really discern them by GC and but. All right, so we're going to move on to the next slide.

1:09:59SpeakerSo we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide.

1:10:15SpeakerYou know, it's, to quote Mr. Swanson, the same thing is that there's nothing that's, it's not that we can't detect them, it's that we don't know we should be looking for those. And that's what you do. You have to work on changing the resolution of your scan, basically. And as an example, so I put in the chat, you know, we're talking about terpenes, terpenoids, monoterpenes, hesperterpenes. Alli, nobody's mentioned aliphatic alcohols, dials, dioates, esters, or the acids yet.

1:10:43SpeakerAnd it's, and this, for example, there was this paper that came out like two weeks ago. I'm surprised it even got published because they said, oh, we discovered what the skunky aroma was in cannabis for the first time. Like, no, you've, I mean, We've known that in beer for decades. We discovered the garlic and onion characteristics. And the diesel characters are like, no, we know what compounds cause those and what classes of compounds.

1:11:10SpeakerAnd so you might have identified a particular isomer of one or something like that. But this is information that's already known. And so when we talk about terpenes, like I want people to move away from just using terpenes. With Marcus's point that people are getting more excited about using the terms that they're learning because they want to dive deeper and they want to be able to better understand the medicine or the compounds or the material that they're using.

1:11:36SpeakerAnd this conversation is really just to get people started on, let's throw that out. All right, so we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started.

1:12:08SpeakerAll right, we're going to go ahead and get started. We're going to go ahead and get started.

1:12:32SpeakerI think it might even be smaller, so a trillion. So crazy. It's basically like, what is it? One part per quadrillion? 0.1 parts per quadrillion. That's like taking a lint brush to a New York City sidewalk. You're going to find everything. Go ahead.

1:12:54SpeakerNo, I was thinking earlier too, just about, you know, my favorite part of all of it is esters. And I love, like the banana ester is my favorite because it's so complex in a sense. And you- It's the amyl acetate. That's the amyl acetate, yep. Yep. So it's, but what I love, and then look at CBD. When you bind whatever the cherry flavor to CBD that binds to that cannabinoid, there's things in there.

1:13:19SpeakerWhat I always tell people is when you smell cannabis, So, you're smelling a lot of other things beside, right? We know there's chlorophyll in there. We know there's plant matter there. There's other things that they're catching the scent of. That's why when I look at the guys at True Terpenes, I feel like they aren't doing it correctly because they're not adding some of those other things. But again, it's not going to be a beautiful, clear jar of terpenes at that point.

1:13:42SpeakerSo, it's really, it always gets to me where... You know, when I look at these things and I see the conversation, it's the education level of the consumer. And like Marcus said, they've gotten much better. You know, they like I remember when you when when you use the term terps or terpenes, people had no idea what the fuck that was. I would drive my car's license plate says terp rig and I drive my car around and no one knew what the fuck it was.

1:14:08SpeakerAnd now I'm in L.A. almost every time I'm on the highway, there's kids behind me like fucking. video in my car because they because it's it's so popular now in the understanding um that people know that i love that i think that that's the the doors open we cracked it a little bit and now they're like oh i mean a lot of people don't know that maryland's college football team is the terps the terrapins so they make a ton i have t-shirts that just say terps on them and all this from that i i love how it's becoming more of the conversation but the the And I think the idea that you're presenting, Nick, is genius because it will allow people at least something to measure from, at least something to dig into and compare because that's what we're doing all the time.

1:14:53SpeakerWe may agree here, but then turn around and be in another situation and we're just comparing our own understanding. So I think it's a great idea. I really, I'm excited to see really where it goes because the, I love your point about the dropdown menu. And when you get into it, it could be a million different things that kind of fall into it. So, no, I think that when it comes to analyzing things and looking at things and getting a better understanding of them, it's a long process.

1:15:19SpeakerAnd I feel like in order to get there, we all need to smoke more hash. That's just what it comes down to. And grow more wheat. Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:28Collin PalmerYou know, there is a lot of studies done with enzymatic biotransformation for, you know, specifically targeting and terpenoids. So I would highly recommend it. I'll send you some white papers I have digging into and I think it'll be perhaps helpful for your really for the headspace that you're occupying.

1:15:49SpeakerThe promise that was never really delivered on is the notion that we can categorize Steve Sorenson, A variety or cultivar by just looking at the terpene profile by GC and then reassembling that terpene profile, adding that to unflavored distillate and basically coming up with a good tasting concentrate. And I don't know, Addison, I, you know, we've been following this thing for years and I still don't think that anyone has got that, got that down.

1:16:19SpeakerIt always seems to me like there's two aspects, not just the terpene profile, but The relative concentration of terpenes, you know, like. So sensitive, yeah. Yeah, well, years ago when Tony was talking about, you know, adding terpenes to his dad, he was like putting squirts of it in at a time. It's like, holy shit.

1:16:41BubblemanI can still feel it on my throat.

1:16:44SpeakerWhen you add that much, it becomes, yeah, caustic on your throat.

1:16:49BubblemanAnd it also, it gets to the full circle of why Kylie is here today. And, you know, because a part of this conversation and creating a shared lexicon, it's also like, well, you can't be smoking. Yep.

1:17:04SpeakerAs I was about to say, when you consume hash or a vape, Adam Wendel, And depending on what temperature you're using, and also if you consume in the flower form, you're going to have a totally different experience. Like in the flower form, you're going to be getting a lot of other compounds for good or for ill that are, you know, present. Like you get the ash, the ash and the smoke and so on and so forth.

1:17:32SpeakerAnd it's, sorry, Marcus, we lost you just at the, as you're getting into the, I'm just going to listen.

1:17:41SpeakerBut yeah, I mean, that's a huge thing. And so I call that form or the format matters hugely. So I know this is hash church, so maybe flower is verboten. But it's, you know, there's some strains that I prefer to consume in flower form just because I enjoy the experience I get from it and others that I, you know, I really don't want to do that. Gorilla Glue and Nine Pound Hammer and all those guys, they are not lightly named.

1:18:17SpeakerFor me, I'm very sensitive to THC, and it just knocks me out. Whereas the one I just showed earlier with a bunch of CBG and CBD and CB Jesus, it's also got 3% CBC and 0.4% CBT, which is

1:18:36SpeakerAdam Dunn, Amy Van Dyken, ADN, Aaron Wade, Storm, Stuart, Subcool, Swami Chaitanya, Todd McCormick, Tony Verzura, Wendy Turner, Adam Dunn, Amy Van Dyken, ADN,

1:18:45SpeakerAdam Wendel, You know, we had a, I had another one that was a 1.5 CBC and a bunch of other stuff and most, mostly Verins. And it, it made me feel like I was consuming it, you know, back in high school. I was giggly. I was energetic. I was super happy about it. And I thought it was a CBC. So I went out and got another one that had the highest, the highest level CBC, but it makes me feel completely different.

1:19:08SpeakerSo it's, I suspect that that one is probably to do with the terpene profile. And I'm just psyched as hell because Well, first of all, I love that feeling. Hi, buddy. But the sort of kind of got off on a tangent here. I wonder why. But the experience was just amazing. And so trying to get that characterized, at least in terms of what, at least personally for me, and let me be completely honest, I'm a little bit selfish in pursuing this because I want to know how this stuff works for me.

1:19:43SpeakerI want to know what I feel like. Chay, what are you doing? Sorry, he's wanting pets.

1:19:49SpeakerAnd, you know, just, I mean, just for ourselves, I think this is a, this is a really great opportunity for just for the, for the geeks to geek out on what we're really interested in, you know, and in my experience, geekery expands.

1:20:10Etienne FontanOne second. Are you saying your dog wanted petting? I think that's a unique situation in science. Is anybody aware of the dog wanting pets?

1:20:17SpeakerNo, I've never, never, never heard of that before.

1:20:20Etienne FontanGot to run that through the GC.

1:20:23SpeakerHis GC is pretty awesome. We need a canine lexicon. It has a strange affinity for cat dung, though.

1:20:31BubblemanMine, too. I had the kitty litter robot. My cat, my dog, it's not a good scene.

1:20:41SpeakerI have a dog that likes to eat the other dog's stuff, and I've done everything. And there's just, you know, and, you know, some days she doesn't get any kisses. So it's just how it is. Free snacks out the oven. Yeah, it's a very taboo thing to witness. I'll tell you right now. Fever Terps. What do you mean, raspberry? Yeah, or vanilla. Yeah, the anal gland of a water rodent.

1:21:10Collin PalmerOne thing I wanted to bring up was toxicology. And I think, I believe at least that's another subject that is highly under looked in terms of how we're stacking, you know, things through action and taking these individual parent parts and then creating new formulations with them as ingredients. We're entering a new world that, you know, admittedly, I don't think we really truly understand.

1:21:41Collin PalmerAnd I think it's I just believe there's that should be along for the ride. If we're going to develop, you know, a language, it should be baked into it. So we all understand that the risk behind a lot of this is is actually actually there. I mean, we love making these amazing products. But through that act, I think I just believe that we've also made some pretty toxic things.

1:22:10Collin PalmerAll of these things are pretty toxic. You know, there's certain things that we're going to start to have to have answers for, I think.

1:22:22SpeakerYeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think there's a it is a it is a drug. You know, there's going to be risks and toxic, you know, the toxicity of that drug. But I feel like the one great thing about cannabis is that it seems to be not very toxic at all. You know, unless you have this hypermesis or these other issues with consumption. That's what's so great about cannabis.

1:22:45SpeakerI mean, at the end, we all get these questions all the time. I got a question the other day from a guy who obviously has no understanding of, you know, a very, very quick, early understanding of I think he did some research on leukemia and saw that there are cell types for leukemia, which specific cannabinoids and terpene profiles work really well for. And then that sort of led him into this direction of being like, well, hey, my grandmother's not eating, so I'm trying to get her to eat.

1:23:11SpeakerAnd I explained to him, I said, just give her a very low dose of THC, you know, because we all know when we were kids and we smoked that shitty brown weed, we got the munchies super hard because the dose of THC was so low. Um, and then we also know too, if you take a, you know, if you put to face a, a half grand dab, you're probably not going to be eating anything anytime soon after that.

1:23:33SpeakerUm, so I explained to him, Hey, look, you know, give her a really low dose of THC. Um, and he's like, well, what do you mean? And I'm like, have her take one puff off of a joint, you know, see what grandma's made of, you know, check her out, see what she can do. And he's like, well, I mean, you know, we don't want her to feel the effects of the THC.

1:23:53SpeakerAnd I'm like, well, listen, you're not going to get the hungry feeling without the psychoactive feeling. They come together. I said, but ask your grandmother this. What medications are she taking right now? And what are the side effects of that medication? So you kind of educate them to a point where they start to understand more. like look man you're gonna break you know you're gonna break some eggs if you're making omelets grandma like that's how it works and he came back to me um this morning he messaged me and he said man he said you know she got to the point where she you know wasn't eating and my mother came to me and we had to make something happen and i told him about our conversation so i i was smoking a joint and she came up and took one puff off the joint and lo and behold All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

1:24:58SpeakerSo that people can say, hey, because look what we've already all done collectively. We've all collectively helped deliver some of this stuff that they're already looking at. Some of these, you know, when Steve Hill did his terpene testing, we were all sitting there and it was like, oh, we're going to be able to identify all these fucking things. And it's like, no, you just open Pandora's box.

1:25:19SpeakerAnd you put your foot in your mouth at the same time because nature, you know, God is nature in so many ways. And I feel like nature is cannabis. And my biggest beef with steep hill is that you are not the science of, you know, you are not the, they try to claim to be this, like, What is it like the science of cannabis or something? And it's like, no, nature is that.

1:25:41SpeakerNature is giving this to you. You're just analyzing and looking at it. You're just, you know, you're business people looking at these things. So I think, oh, go ahead. I love that you said that, Addison, because I think that it's really important for us to remember too, that while we're studying terpenes and all of the different fractals off of what terpenes are, And what they can be even combined with and be created from.

1:26:08SpeakerThe cannabis plant is creating terpenes in a live state. It's creating terpenes through this incredible dynamic microbiology body, which is the microbiome, which is the endophytic system of the plant. So, I mean, talk about nature and talk about trying to explain something that is so dynamically happening It's so different. You know, what soil are you giving it? What kind of lights do you have? All of these things.

1:26:40SpeakerAnd again, I'm going to go back to, and I'm going to go back to this awesome example in science is that us, as well as plants, our DNA, we're 99.9% identical, but our microbiome, we're 99.9% totally different.

1:27:00SpeakerAnd that's no different with the plant. So here we are trying to explain and express while I do think that this kind of common language could be really helpful, you know, in making medicines. I believe that a lot of the energy and effort and unfolding, if you will, of the plant really needs to come from that endophytic system and microbiology. And how we are creating the terpenes from the very beginning, not necessarily how we're separating them out and how we're going to, you know, isolate them and create new scents, but how are we going to work with the plant All right.

1:27:42SpeakerThank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:28:01SpeakerSo we can actually take samples throughout the life cycle of a plant and look at what genes are being turned off and on and what metabolic pathways are engaged. And that's super exciting for me. And that's obviously, you need to get the sort of the first data down and start looking at it. But that is, it's some amazing science that has become accessible in the last couple of years to be able to look into All right, so we're going to take a look at the plant cells and see what the reaction of the plant is to a given environment in terms of its tertiary metabolites and secondary metabolites, what it's producing, and look at what the chemical impact in the living organizm of a environmental change or stressor is.

1:28:56SpeakerAaron Wendel, As I said, this is a, you know, if we get this going, it's a certainly job security, because it's a very long experiment. But it's, it's super, super important. And it actually, and this is one of the things that I kind of want to point out is that You know, this type of work has implications beyond just cannabis. Like this can be, you talked about toxicology, but look in terms of therapeutic benefits.

1:29:19SpeakerYou know, the sense of smell is so important in memories that I suspect that there is probably a way to use sense in combination with a bunch of other therapy to help people overcome PTSD, you know? They associate this smell with this particular traumatic event. Well, let's start introducing some other smells to try to change the signal noise ratio on their disorder. Even dementia. If you look at dementia, I've had that idea as well.

1:29:50SpeakerI hate to interrupt, but it makes me think that too, because what I've noticed just in some of the research I've been looking at, just in videos I'm watching and things that I'm looking at of these Alzheimer's patients, they're using music. To reintroduce them to different things. And instantly I was like, well, fuck, that'd be great if you also had them, you know, if you would speak to them or talk to the family members that they had and bring, you know, maybe they were a gardener and they love to grow lavender.

1:30:18SpeakerAnd now you introduce lavender with the music and see what that stimulates. I think it's opening up a lot of different doors. I've got to jump off. I'll just leave you guys with one last thing. When we were preparing for Legends, Marcus had explained to us that we wanted to make sure that we had to have fruits and stuff at the event. So we were dealing with a company called Sassoon Fruits, which sent us a box of fruit to check out just to kind of figure out what we wanted to get.

1:30:46SpeakerAnd they sent us these pineapple guavas, which are these little green pineapple guavas. They're tiny little things. And there were also other guavas, and there was a bunch of great stuff in there. Are they feijoa? What's that? Are they feijoa? I'm not sure what they are, but the terpene profile on those things, if there's ever a strain of cannabis like that, it's going to take over the fucking world.

1:31:08SpeakerIt is so crazy. And I want to analyze this and just see what they are because they're, when you taste it, you're getting, you know, it's touching on some of the things that we've experienced that we understand, but then there's a whole other Aaron Wiggins, Aaron Wiggins,

1:31:37SpeakerAnd then let me know what you think because it was so amazing. But we're going to go get a Christmas tree so we could have some terpenes in the house. But I want to thank everybody. Thanks for having me, Marcus. And I love all you guys. I hope you have a great Sunday.

1:31:58SpeakerOh, yeah, yeah. You can grow those. You can buy them. I'll send you a link right now. But they are, they're super easy to grow. And they are Fejoas. I just found one online. First one out there to extract them. If they weren't so expensive, I would totally do it. So yeah, there's the link right there. And it says monrovia.com, Pineapple Guava. The plant is the Latin name and the common name in Brazil is called a Feijão.

1:32:28SpeakerThey grow really well pretty much from any zone above 7b. So you guys are perfect for it. But yeah, they are. Pineapple Guava is a great way to describe the character. I'm going to hit up Reggie, and I'm going to be like, Reggie, we need to isolate these, and then let's see if we can put these things in somewhere. What you described as sort of that guava and that pineapple character, those are a ton of crazy things together.

1:32:56SpeakerAnd the interesting thing about pineapple is that if you just change the OH group on it, on its location, it tastes like strawberry. And that's how they were able to breed something called the pineberry. Which is a strawberry that tastes like pineapple. And it's white. It's absolutely amazing. But yeah, it's like, yeah, totally growable. And I love feijos. They're one of my favorite fruits. They're just hard to find.

1:33:17BubblemanSo why does it not surprise me that you even know what the fuck he was talking about? And you, I don't know. I'm just laughing. But let's talk about legends next Sunday, Addison.

1:33:28SpeakerFor sure. I'll definitely love to jump in. I also wanted to say that yesterday, We successfully were able to grab the domains for Legends. So me and Marcus have been discussing stuff and it looks like we'll be moving forward with some of that stuff. So soon there'll be a website, soon the t-shirts and the past lanyard t-shirts will be available and all these really cool things. Thank you, Marcus.

1:33:50SpeakerI can't thank you enough for believing in us and giving us the opportunity to put Legends on. And we hope we did you proud. So that's, yeah, thank you so much.

1:33:58BubblemanAbsolutely. Thank you, guys. You absolutely did it proud. And we're going to talk about it hopefully next week because lots of people are asking questions. So love to have a little hour talk about Legends next week. I'll see you guys next week. Thanks, guys. Peace out, Addison.

1:34:14SpeakerSee you later.

1:34:17Etienne FontanAnd also going on what Addison was saying, I would also then add on, you know, psilocybin therapy on there because of how psilocybin are able to re-bridge neurons. I think that's something that isn't discussed enough as well, especially for people who are older or have suffered traumas. As you were talking, Nick, earlier about that, that's one of the things we found. You know, I work with veterans at a national and international level, and cannabis is an amazing palliative.

1:34:50Etienne FontanBut when you want to deal with that healer, that deeper healing, you know, psychedelics come into play. And I appreciate the The new forefront that they're experimenting with in psilocybin because I think a combination of cannabis and psilocybin are going to be natural beneficials and we're seeing that already in the veterans community from people already self-healing that way. So we're just trying to come up with standard operational procedures so people can have a safe and efficacious experience as opposed to You know, they get the experience they want as opposed to the experience they're given.

1:35:32Etienne FontanYou know what I'm saying? Because those are key. Set and settings are, as you know, are key to any type of acceptance or unacceptance. You know, if I go take mushrooms and go to an amusement park, I'm going to have a different experience than if I'm in my home where I have things that I can relate to that ground me, etc., It allows for that self-healing to take place.

1:35:56Etienne FontanSo it's a total holistic understanding that I think is lost on a lot, especially younger people when they're out there experimenting. They take these and then go out into the world as opposed to trying to go as best as we can inward to the situation, which is a whole other level of education that needs to take place. Just that correlation between people with Alzheimer's and those that are having memory issues.

1:36:24Etienne FontanAnd especially as you get into that dementia range, I look forward to seeing, and especially if there's some budding researchers out there, we look forward to seeing your studies once you become doctors on what actually takes place in these relationships, because we definitely need to have a better understanding. Because we know anecdotally it's happening, but we need the science like with cannabis to come around and actually, you know, bring that to the case.

1:36:52Etienne FontanBut I love what you're doing, Nick, and keep at it.

1:36:57SpeakerWell, I was trying to build the support for it all because I think it's got a lot of potential. In terms of what you're just mentioning about psilocybin, and I would also venture ketamine therapy, Dr. Sunil Agarwal has a Adam Pave, M.D. : Thank you. Adam Pave, M.D. : Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:37:31SpeakerAdam Wendel, Edmonton State University, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences,

1:37:44Etienne FontanNo, it is. It's a whole other frontier. But I mean, we're still having problems with cannabis. I mean, still, I mean, this week, a group I work with at the UN level, I mean, we had to set out a letter and we were able to get over 100 groups to call for greater transparency at the INCB with its cannabis initiative because Thank you so much for joining us.

1:38:25Etienne Fontanuh and vienna and then uh in mid-march we'll be there as well um trying to push back against this because we're just celebrating one year just one year people as of december 2nd the group that i work with changed international law and got cannabis pulled out of schedule four so that medical marijuana is legal for the first year since 1961 so we're currently working on getting cannabis pulled

1:38:54Etienne FontanWe've got a long way to go international wise, but treaty wise. But if we get this research that you're doing, Nick, and get it going, hopefully by the time we all, we'll hopefully all meet on a path sometime in the future where we'll find the utopia we're searching for education and freedom wise. So steps by steps.

1:39:15BubblemanWe're on that path right now.

1:39:17Etienne FontanYou're on it. We're on that yellow brick road.

1:39:21Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThere's a lot of work being done in Canada with the Canadian Psychedelic Association and a lot of the psychedelic therapy that's happened in Canada has crossed over to the US and the term psychedelic was coined by a Canadian doctor. I forget his name right off the top of my head, but I think it was in 1955 back in Saskatchewan, they were doing LSD trials. Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:40:18Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYou know, it's obvious that plant medicine is therapy that helps us through things because we've been guided through plant medicine with indigenous cultures throughout the world. And in some cases, people continue to go back to these indigenous tribes and get therapy. But plant medicine therapies in general are on the rise. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:40:57Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThank you. Thank you.

1:41:13Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt's often those medicines that truly know how to break through the blood brain barrier and there and you know things like raw cacao and algae together has been proven to improve cognitive degradation and also medicinal mushrooms. There's so many All of these good medicinal mushroom studies out there are often in Korean, Russian or Chinese or Japanese. So we don't often get those teachings in this Western culture, but it's these new awakenings that we're going through right now that will help unlock people.

1:41:52Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd we believe in this medical sovereignty and this medical, this choice of what medicines that you deserve to have Thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

1:42:28Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:42:53Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYou know, expertise in the field, you know, makes it a whole conversation. Thank you.

1:42:59BubblemanWell, I have somewhere I kind of want to shift the conversation towards our good friend Wade, who's in the room. He's just been hanging out. I wanted to first say welcome, brother. I know that you're hurting right now with the ribs. And that would be nice for everyone to give Wade a little bit of love as he's, you know, at home right now, sort of in bed with some damage to his body.

1:43:21SpeakerSo we're thinking about you, brother. What happened? I missed this. Hi, everybody. Hi, Wade. Wade here.

1:43:34SpeakerWhat happened, Mark, is back in September, I fractured a rib on my right side. And I did it climbing out of bed. Didn't fall down. Nothing. No reason that's apparent for that to happen.

1:43:55SpeakerBut went to the hospital and got x-rays and sure enough fractured a rib. And in conversation with my doctor, we both agreed that seemed very odd. And so, yeah, a series of blood tests revealed that I am profoundly deficient in vitamin D3. And as a farmer who spends hours each day outside, I eat really good food. I pay attention to the things that I expose myself to.

1:44:28SpeakerI use cannabis on a regular basis. I feel like I'm a person who should be enjoying good health. But in fact, it's my take on it. As I've talked with my doctor and done a little research, vitamin D3 deficiency does not happen suddenly. This has been going on for years for me. It's probably why I hurt my back back in 2018. And at the moment, yeah, I am.

1:44:56SpeakerI'm getting on two weeks pretty much in bed because not only do I have the one fractured rib, but there's a chiropractor who's been to see me is of the opinion. I've got a couple of fractured ribs on the other side of my rib cage. And in addition, a couple of ribs that are dislocated. Just having a grand old time here. But Now that I know what's going on, the fact that I'm so deficient, actually, I'm deficient enough in vitamin B3 that if I were a child, I would be diagnosed with rickets, which is a really horrible disease.

1:45:36SpeakerSo, you know, much thanks and appreciation for Monica, my partner, who is working her fanny off to keep up with my needs, as well as the farm and everything else that's going on here.

1:45:51SpeakerEmotionally and mentally, I feel inspired and deeply grateful again. I feel like there's been a lot of things going on in my life over the last five or six years that I had trouble understanding why I was experiencing those things. Now that I know that I'm deficient in vitamin D3, I'm taking extremely large doses of it, large enough that they are prescription only. And I've got a good doctor who's helping me with dealing with the issues that are going on.

1:46:26SpeakerAnd I look forward to many more years of being an obnoxious and pressing sort of guy because I feel my health coming back. And I know that When my mind and my heart are inspired, my body will catch up. So at the moment, yeah, I've got my camera turned off because you don't want to see what I look like laying here in bed going on two weeks.

1:46:52SpeakerI did get a shower this morning for the first time. So yeah, things are getting better. But quite honestly, for the last couple of weeks, I have not been able to sit, stand or walk without a great deal of pain. And so I'm mostly resting in bed and eating well and taking care of myself, healing and feeling deeply grateful for such a lovely and amazing woman as a partner.

1:47:24SpeakerAnd that's kind of all I got at the moment. I very much am enjoying the conversation about terpenes and learning more deeply the chemistry of the plant. But much like Kelly, I got to keep pointing back to this plant knows what it's doing. And I feel cautious about trying to cut up All the different compounds that are going on in this plant and then think we can put them back together again in a way that provides potentially the same benefit that the plant does all by itself.

1:48:10SpeakerI think it's important to learn what we can about this plant because there's no question it's a huge gift to our planet and

1:48:25SpeakerYeah, that's kind of all I got. I'm hanging in. I'm loving the conversation. I appreciate, Marcus, you putting on the church this morning and the usual crew that shows up and some of the new faces. And you're an inspiration, sir. And I will look forward to many more years of being inspired and hopefully once in a while inspiring somebody else. Much love.

1:48:51BubblemanAlways. Every time you share, bro, you're inspiring. Trust that. I appreciate the kind words. And if there's anything the church community, the Hash Church community can do to help you out, don't hesitate to reach out. Let us know what we can do.

1:49:07Etienne FontanYeah, Wade, sorry we're going to miss you at the Emerald Cup next week, but, you know, heal well quickly and look forward to the time when we can embrace again, sir.

1:49:18SpeakerRight back at you, Jim. I was really looking forward to it as well.

1:49:26SpeakerYeah.

1:49:31SpeakerFour months ago, a couple of months ago, I thought, hell, I don't see any way out of this. I don't understand what's happening to me. It feels like my body's falling apart. And now it's like, yeah, it was falling apart, but now it's coming back. Are there other symptoms or other indicators that would lead you to believe that you have a vitamin D deficiency before you actually start breaking bones?

1:50:03SpeakerOther than like feeling like my teeth have gotten soft over the last 10 years and

1:50:15SpeakerAnd I was always somewhat puzzled at how I hurt my back back in 2018, Mark. I was doing what seemed to be pretty straightforward work that I've done with no problem for years. And yet that year it turned into a nightmare that resulted in having to have surgery and spending some time in the hospital and And I came out of that feeling pretty good. And yeah,

1:50:49SpeakerNo is the short answer to question mark. What really brought it home was a blood serum analysis that revealed that my blood level content of vitamin D3 was eight nanograms per milliliter of serum. And normal is somewhere between 40 and 100. So

1:51:20SpeakerAnd yeah, like I said, I don't know why I've gotten so deficient. That's the next step. The next step is to get my bones strong again and build up the vitamin D level in my bloodstream. But I also, the next step after that is to understand why did I become so dramatically deficient And a vitamin that my body should be making with my exposure to the sun and the diet that I pursue.

1:51:50SpeakerI eat lots of vegetables that we grow right here on the farm. I eat fruit from the farm. I, you know, not to call it out, but I eat meat. We buy high quality organic meats and we don't eat it that often. But I, I just feel like, yeah, I was doing everything I knew how to do. And yet somehow ended up profoundly deficient in vitamin D. So I guess one of the things I would say to everybody that's listening is trust your doctors.

1:52:22SpeakerLearn what they can offer to you in the way of information that is available about your body. And then pay attention to what's happening to your body. I'm getting to be 70 years old. And yeah, I feel like I got years of troublemaking left. And look forward to having my body back and ready to rock and roll.

1:52:49BubblemanWell, we appreciate you, Wade, for sure. And it really does speak to kind of like the whole conversation that we've been talking about today, trying to create the shared lexicon and going down the sensory rabbit hole. It's to do things like the blood serum test that you got done. That's what it's for. It's to learn things that we can't learn and know From like things that have been passed down necessarily from our grandmothers or whatnot.

1:53:14BubblemanLike there are certain things that we can't just assume. And then we go to science and we get that blood serum test and we get told, you know, you have this deficiency. So it's really kind of a full circle to the story. I really hope you're feeling better, Wade. And I want to welcome Dr. Allison. How the heck are you?

1:53:34Dr AllisonHi, I actually have a post-it here from a client. That I've been waiting to see Wade for a long time. And Wade, can you give me a recommendation for an indica-leaning CBD, please?

1:53:56SpeakerHarlequin was an indica-leaning mix of indica and sativa.

1:54:07SpeakerA high CBD version of it. You could go to Harley Sue or ACDC or there's dozens and dozens and dozens of different cultivars that are out there right now. Actually, I bet Etienne would be a better person to answer that question because he's seeing what's available in the California marketplace through the dispensaries. I know what's, you know, heritage market, if you will, what was happening a few years ago.

1:54:39SpeakerBut yeah, I bet Etienne would have a good suggestion on that. Thank you.

1:54:44Dr AllisonGood to see you, Etienne.

1:54:46Etienne FontanWade, I would agree with you. The problem is, unfortunately, is we are not seeing CBD cultivars showing up at the dispensaries nowadays. We're seeing all the bastard stepchildren, but we're not seeing any CBD dominance lately. And I'm not sure if it's from the growth supply

1:55:09Etienne FontanWe are deficient here in California. So growers, manufacturers, please, we need to do better.

1:55:16SpeakerAre we allowed to ship stuff to California?

1:55:23Etienne FontanNo, it's still illegal because it's still federal mail. So it has to be in California by California to Californians, unfortunately, until, of course, as we know, the interstate commerce discussion is gaining more traction now more than ever. And there are letters that are being put forth to push more for that because I want to be able to benefit from other people as well as I want to be able to send people genetics and things like that because there will be a time here in the future when You can say, yes, I want to order a Harlequin specific.

1:55:59Etienne FontanI need these many genetics. Bam. OK, I want to be able to do so here. And unfortunately, we're not there yet. And, you know, right now, currently we've got two competitions open in California. Emerald Cup is accepting for its 2022 competition. And currently I'm the ambassador for the state of California for its actually cannabis competition for the state fair because it's not actually at a county level working its way up to state yet.

1:56:29Etienne FontanSo there is CBD flower is part of the both of those competitions. So I'm very much looking forward here. I know we won't see the competition from Emerald Cup until Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in just a few minutes.

1:57:08Etienne FontanHarlequins and others place here at the state fair so that we can make everybody aware, but also see the need for production and getting this genetic out there to the market because currently it's only for legal manufacturers in the state of California. However, in the future, it's going to be open to backyard growers because here in California, any adult over the age of 21 can grow six plants.

1:57:36Etienne FontanBut we have to kind of wait for the county situation to come on board. So we're kind of leapfrogging initially with the state to hopefully get the counties to come on board so that we can have a true competition like you would in any natural state where it rises from the county level then to the state level. You see what I'm saying? And then at that point, wouldn't you love to be able to then export or import Thank you so much for joining us.

1:58:24Etienne FontanThank you for understanding as a whole on these CBD varietals and how beneficial they are because daily I'm getting patients who are asking and looking for it. And of course, I recommend a saturation of, you know, THC and CBD together to help them get an understanding for their own understanding of what their own symbiosis of, you know, what their own natural feelings should be or be like.

1:58:53Etienne FontanSo sorry, long-winded.

1:58:54Dr AllisonNo, that's okay. So I've been doing a lot more cannabis-assisted psychotherapy. And so that's why I was asking for a CBD leaning into that because a lot of these people have like high amounts of anxiety, but the anxiety is also for THC. Like they're terrified to like, Cora Bennett , You know touch THC but they you know they hear this is amazing and so i've been looking for one so that.

1:59:20Dr AllisonCora Bennett , We can start out with a CBD and then slightly move them into a little bit of THC. Cora Bennett , But having something that's a little more on the relaxing side will allow for them to like open their heart and have some vulnerability in the session.

1:59:36Etienne FontanThat's why we recommend starting off with the teas, like for older women, like when my mother wanted to start trying cannabis, she doesn't smoke. So one of the things that we found is we found certain teas and tea companies make varieties like a 20 to 1 CBD to 1 THC. Well, that was a perfect way to introduce her into trying it because she got very little THC, but it felt very relaxed.

2:00:03Etienne FontanAnd one of the things that we have found is especially CBD helps balance things out. I myself take a two to one, two THC to one CBD. I know some people prefer one to one. Some people can handle CBD. The 18 to one, et cetera. So it's finding what your body has and likes. But when we start getting like 20 to zero, Right. So what works for you and what ratio is key.

2:00:30Etienne FontanHowever, I have a friend of mine who likes to hang around stoners like Rob Clark, et cetera, et cetera. And he says when he goes to hang out with them, he'll take 60 milligrams of just CBD so that when he's hanging with these experts, he can smoke all night and not get absolutely blitzed. So, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's

2:01:10Etienne Fontancannabis then brings on the desired effect so again it's about finding your natural biome but i think it is very crucial with cbd varietals especially initially because of the anxiety and especially in a therapeutic environment when people are first experimenting with cannabis i myself have known when i've given somebody too much It's easily to make them go from absolutely happy and giddy and relaxed to absolutely paranoid to a level of uncomfortableness that makes everyone around them uncomfortable.

2:01:45Etienne FontanAnd so those are the things that we try to avoid and why with my experimentation working with patients over the decades have found a blend of THC, CBD in both low spike are very helpful to introduce them comfortably. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:02:15BubblemanI wonder if people were really paranoid before the DEA started locking people up and giving them 20, 30 years at a time, you know, like infusing paranoia into cannabis, the way the meat industry infuses the tortured flesh and adrenaline soaked flesh, you know, out to the people. It's like, what are you trying to do? You're attacking the very thing that is good for PTSD and relaxation, and you're infusing it with paranoia.

2:02:42BubblemanYou know what? Fuck you, law enforcement.

2:02:46SpeakerATN, does California Assembly Bill, you know, after the FDA denied the Charlotte Web's petition, or I'm sorry, whatever, the Charlotte company, denied the listing of it as a dietary supplement, and then California Assembly Bill, which was passed in October, now makes, We've got CBD available as a dietary supplement in California. So do you think production will catch up with that? So your original premise, which was, you know, I need to see this stuff in my dispensary.

2:03:29SpeakerDo you think that that'll change production to put CBD leaning cultivars on the radar for producers in California?

2:03:38Etienne FontanI hope I don't know that to be the case. You know what I'm saying? In the sense that, you know, the legislation is still not finished in the sense that I cannot still have CBD products in there. However, I can now have, you know, sativa derived CBD varietals in the future in my dispensary. So I'm already starting to get hit by CBD distributors, manufacturers from the Outside world that are the non cannabis starting to dangle their foot into our reality.

2:04:11Etienne FontanI am very hopeful that we are going to see more people start to experiment and play with these varieties and start to break out all every type of ratio so that every type of ratio is available. Okay, because unfortunately, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:04:59Etienne FontanI'm like, I got no fucking clue. And I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not going to bullshit you and tell you something I don't know. If I can see science that backs it up, et cetera. The only way I've seen that is the route that we have created here in California. So I see it through the distributors and manufacturers at the cannabis level. We do not see that at the professional outside manufacturer level there.

2:05:25Etienne FontanYet, I anticipate it will in time, and hopefully, yes, I hope that more of that access will cause that. However, I still think there's a problem with the CBD manufacturers currently in play, just as CBD from the hemp. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:06:11Etienne FontanI do hope that some of these CBD people will step into the THC realm and some of these THC people will step into the CBD realm so that we can get that biodiversity that's needed for the patients themselves currently because it is sorely missing. That's there. I would like to see that next step because then Alison has all these different ratios to strive to try from starting from one end and working her way back or working your way up, however, or whichever way in the spectrum you find yourself or where your body is acclimated to or is used to.

2:06:49Etienne FontanSo that's not understood.

2:06:52Dr AllisonI see that Wade has his hand up. Interesting aspect that I do just want to throw out with regard to using cannabis as a as a therapy tool. We kind of want to push them to that line of anxiety because when you push them to that line of anxiety during a therapy session, then you can explore what it is that's causing that anxiety. And so there, I love what you're saying, Etienne, about being able to go from like 20 to one to like 10 to one to five to one and slowly move them in that direction towards that increase of anxiety that really helps to, it's what we work from as a therapist.

2:07:30Dr AllisonSo, but I saw Wade had his hand up, so I'll retract.

2:07:36SpeakerNo, I think you make an excellent point, Alison. Myself, I'm not a big fan of pushing people on their dose. And what drove me to raise my hand was Etienne's observation about, I think it was a grandmother having a cup of tea. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:08:20SpeakerThe different ways of preparing that chemistry into a product that can be taken into the body or dose or frequency of use or any of those other things, all of which play, in my experience at least, a huge part in what you can benefit from by using cannabis. Smoking or inhalation is one way to gain benefit from the use of cannabis, but is one way. It is not the only way.

2:08:54SpeakerIt's the way we talk about a lot. It's the way our culture sees cannabis being consumed in the media and whatnot. But I got to be honest, other than my own personal use, And maybe one in 50 patients I've worked with over the years, most people I've worked with don't want to smoke either because they're kids or they're elders or they're people who are scared of cannabis.

2:09:25SpeakerAnd I have found again and again, by looking at the needs of that person, And the chemistry of the plants in oils that I might have on hand, I can usually find some way of preparing those oils that the person will not only benefit from it, but want to use it again. And then part of the education that I try and do on dosing is help them to understand how to find the dose that works for them.

2:10:00SpeakerThat they would be willing to repeat that dose to start building the vitality and health of their endocannabinoid system. And a lot of the things that we talk about, everything from PTSD to neuralgia, to seizures, to cancer, all of these various conditions and many more respond to cannabis Because the endocannabinoid system is involved in those conditions. And it really is about, for me, not unlike tending the soil of your garden.

2:10:39SpeakerSlowly but surely you build the vitality, the diversity of your garden soil. You'll see better and better results. And here I am laying in my bed talking about diversity and building your health and all that. But it does work.

2:10:57Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYeah, you know what, that's still, like you said, like Nick said earlier, you know, what are you going to give up? No, you got to keep going. So, you know, it's always going to be about health and well-being, even if you're currently, you know, still, you know, working towards that, because I think we're all working towards health and well-being. So, yeah, no, I definitely hear you, Wade, and your message.

2:11:18Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd it's also wonderful to see you, Allison. And everyone who's joined Brian. Haven't heard from Kylie yet, but big love to you. And so Kelly wants to say something here in a sec, which is I just wanted to say really quickly, I think it's important that we connect the medicine Growers and makers to the customer and the consumer or what I like a better word than customer and consumer, but to, you know, to the compassionate care family, because often in these legalized paradigms, we have detached medicine makers from the patients.

2:11:53Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo now patients have to go to an alternative doctor or which is great. You know, or a secondary source or a bud tender to try and find out, you know, what the medicine maker is embodying. So what we've seen like this last weekend is a beautiful thing, a farmer's market, Northern California and the Sebastopol area, give thanks, you know, DEM Pure Farmers, a lot of them were there and they were able to share their home made products, their natural farm, regenerative farms, regenerative medicine, eco packaged, All right.

2:12:28Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThank you so much.

2:12:47Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt allows in that way, it opens up a pathway to the medicine because now that person has an open pathway to the medicine that they got from the medicine maker. And so, you know, they're going to be excited when they get home to take that medicine because they talk to the person who, who created it rather than the secondary bud tender, which I have all the love in the world for.

2:13:09Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd I think anyone helping is great, but we should. Thank you for joining us today.

2:13:26Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt's therapy sessions. And Kelly had one more thing to say. Did you?

2:13:29SpeakerOh, I just, Wade, I wanted to touch on to you. I, we were having actually a bit of a chicken attack up there. So it's time the goss talks like to come around. So I had to run upstairs. And I was listening to what you were just saying, Wade, first of all, so much love to you. And I really wanted to say that there's a real overlooked thing right now in the world as far as vitamin D.

2:13:54SpeakerB12 and iron uptake. And that's called MTHFR. So please have your doctor check for MTHFR, which is a methylene tetrahydrofolate reductase. Which means that it's limiting your enzymatic uptake within your body. And this is something that Alan Beer had brought up. He wrote a book, I believe, in the 40s calling Is Your Body Baby Friendly? Because so many people were losing children to this inability to uptake amino acids through this reductase.

2:14:35SpeakerThis absolutely is totally defined in vitamin Thank you for joining us today.

2:14:56SpeakerThank you for joining us today.

2:15:12SpeakerSo heavy duty on the battlefield or yeah like if if a lot of us that are white European descendants the reason why we're still alive is because we were came and survived from people that clotted so people that bled out weren't able to go have you know more generations this is incredibly prevalent this man Alan Beer had said he was seen as a heretic they took away his license he said that it was maybe one in every Thank you so much for joining us.

2:16:12SpeakerLove you, Abe. It's hilarious that you mentioned that because I have four All right. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in about a minute or so. We're going to get started in about a minute or so. Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:16:46SpeakerThere are more, I don't think all the mutations are identified yet, but they are definitely a thing. And it's, I sent a couple of articles up or at least references earlier. But yeah, it's, again, it's complex. And the more data we have, the better sort of we're able to sort of identify and treat. Yep. And I just wanted to say in conjunction with that vitamin D and the inability to uptake the vitamin D through this methylation issue, which also leaves toxicities within our body for longer.

2:17:21SpeakerSo people who have more mutations will hold on to toxins in their body much longer. So people who don't have any MTHFR mutations maybe can get over a hangover within 24 hours. People with many different mutations, maybe it could take them two weeks to two months to six months to actually get over that. You know, that alcohol abuse that they had had. But I wanted to say a side door to the vitamin D is silica.

2:17:51SpeakerSo it's also one that is very not utilized. Whenever we test our blood, when we test soil, when we test plants, when we test our food, silica is low. So silica can help propagate the uptake of vitamin D as well.

2:18:10Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd also, so like when I drink this, I put in C90 into this, which is, You know, dehydrated ocean water, it's 84 trace minerals plus six rare earth elements that are coming up from ocean vents. And then there's 50,000 organizms that come alive. Now I take it down from boiling and then I put a little bit of chlorella or a little bit of spirulina in there along with the rock cacao and the lion's mane and a little bit of maca and a little bit of...

2:18:43Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineCan you hear me? Oh, okay, you're hearing that. Anyway, the point is that, you know, it really is, and it can become an amazing, you know, food as medicine and break the blood brain barrier and add trace minerals to your diet along with the allergies and the nootropic medicine of lion's mane, you know, is something to look towards is nootropic medicine, cellular regenerative medicine.

2:19:09SpeakerAnd the moral of the story is here is that we are producing foods that are devoid of full spectrum minerals. So therefore, we are starting to produce humans that are unable to fully uptake all the minerals because minerals are not there and available. So that's why it's really important for us to continue with mineral uptake.

2:19:30Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd breed food for higher amino acids, breed food and medicine for higher flavonoids and more color content, because those are the secondary spectrums that enhance what the main constituents have to offer.

2:19:54BubblemanThank you for sharing. I wanted to shift the conversation a little bit back to bring Kylie into the conversation and to welcome Brian from D-NAIL who just rolled in. I thought the one thing we didn't hit too, too much on today is kind of like, you know, where, you know, we talked about trying to create this kind of think tank group and shared lexicon, just kind of go down this rabbit hole and, you know, having, you know, Kind of having the technology or device that allows for the most You know, unique preservation of the profile before it actually gets to your mouth and into your lungs.

2:20:33BubblemanBecause that's really, you know, you can test anything that you want. You can test the flower, you can test the hash, you can test the oil. But until you heat it up and volatilize it into your throat, that's really the compounds that you're getting, not the ones that you may have tested prior at room temperature. Like Nick had mentioned earlier. So I just thought it would be cool to introduce you, Brian, and get Kylie back in the conversation and kind of talk a little bit about, because you've been doing crazy things, dude.

2:21:02BubblemanAlso, like just the artistic nature of what you've been doing. You can tell by how beautiful and symmetrical it is that it's somehow better. And maybe you can speak a little bit of that, Brian.

2:21:14BrianYeah, real quick. Is my microphone working?

2:21:18SpeakerI hear you, Brian.

2:21:19BrianHow are you doing? Doing all right. I can't hear myself and I've had equipment issues in the past. On that subject, we had a really interesting revelation recently where previously we've been considering our work in terms of flavor. And having been originally based in New York, we couldn't talk about any of the other pharmacology without risking a huge legal consideration. But some of the newer nails that run a little bit more efficiently, people keep asking, why am I getting a different high?

2:21:49BrianHow am I getting higher? How am I still up and alert? And we had this epiphany that as we've been pursuing flavor preservation, we've been changing the pharmacology too. It's flavor is chemical preservation through phase change. You want to be able to take your substance, convert it to a gas, get it through your system as quickly as possible without degradation. And we're using a non-homogenous substance with things that vaporize across a huge spectrum of temperatures, which often gives A, you have to degrade to Delta 9 from THCA in order to get the pharmacology, and B, a lot of the other elements are getting time to destroy themselves in the process.

2:22:32BrianSo as we hit new heights in efficiency, we haven't done chemical testing on it, just anecdotal. We're pretty sure that what we're seeing is a lower mitigation of CBN from the higher efficiency nails and higher efficiency systems, lending itself to a completely different high. So like Marcus said, All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about the final delivery device, how efficient that is. Throw a dab in an 800 degree banger and you do not have, and you might want that effect.

2:22:58BrianYou might want something that's burned some of the terpenes and has a high CBN content that's going to help put you to sleep. But for the subtlety, the fine points, the harder to reach stuff, really doing justice to everything the growers, the breeders, the processors have worked so hard to get into the jar, you need an ultra efficient system.

2:23:20BrianOriginally in nail design and then in cannabis distillation and distillation theory, coming back to nail design with advanced distillation theory under my belt, man, the effects are actually stunning. We're not a research facility, we're a development facility. So in order to actually sit down and do that, we'd need to do a bunch of controlled situations, put the same oil in, run it through a bunch of systems, different temperatures, different systems, different materials present, But I guarantee you, you'll find different results in the vapor coming off of them.

2:23:54BrianAnd that can lead to an intelligent guide for how to use your tools to get what you're looking for from your oil. And it's really the last, it's the last stage in it. It's what happens right before it goes to your face. I couldn't talk about the farming. I couldn't talk about the biology of it, but the physics of it that actually preserve it in motion, or in some cases, intentionally control the degradations.

2:24:21BrianIt's not really studied and it's something I've spent my life's work on and I only kind of realized in the last year that we're changing how high you get or what kind of high you get. There's a lot to do there. I could go into the specifics of how it all works, but that's the broad overview of where I am in my work. We're looking at controlled conditions that actually do in your hardware give you some options on how you're outputting your chemicals.

2:24:50Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWhat's your favorite temperature to smoke at?

2:24:54BrianOkay, first, there's no one answer to that. Second, it's depending on your system. Say we're using a temperature controlled heater on a Sapphire electric nail. If we're going just for flavor, we're going in just at about 420 degrees on the heater setting, which is giving us about Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:25:44BrianPhysics of phase change. If you're quickly and efficiently evaporating off of something that's higher than your boiling point, you'll be able to change phase and escape at your boiling point. Since it's a torch system, we don't have a good electric slurper workout. You're effectively able to bypass what your working temperatures would be and get a longer dab window out of it. The kind of oil, the terpene content present, what you're actually trying to achieve, there's always a trade-off between flavor and vapor.

2:26:15BrianAnd kind of the high end right now is 575 on the centrifugal vertical lift torch systems, the low end being about 420 on a Sapphire temperature controlled heater. Past that, we find that our new carb cap is so efficient, we have to pull our temperatures down and use about half the breath pressure to get the same exact effects on one of the systems. So your hardware, your tools, your oil, pure diamonds you want to run in hotter because you don't have terpenes to worry about you need to break you need to be able to break them down quickly something that's super duper saucy you need to come down it's a billion different kinds of oil and a hundred different hundred thousand different kinds of desired effects people there's there's that's a range there's no there's no one answer

2:27:06SpeakerFrom my experience, efficiency is related to vaporizing each of the individual components in your concentrate at the lowest possible temperatures. We're talking cold starts. When you subject certain like light volatiles to high temperatures, there's a huge temperature difference there and a more likelihood of it converting into something that could be potentially toxic. What you're doing is... That degradation from happening. It's going to degrade. There's no question about it.

2:27:38SpeakerIt's going to degrade, but can you control the degradation? Yes. A low ramp, or do you want to just drop it on something that's, you know, 400 degrees and take the chance that you're going to possibly be breaking it apart? You guys are probably intimately familiar with that Dr. Robert Strongen at Oregon State. Yeah, so, I mean, this is the guy that basically said, oh, be careful when you dab because you're going to degrade things into acrolein and benzene and all that.

2:28:14BrianWas that the 710 myrcene study? Yeah, that was great science. Sorry.

2:28:20SpeakerWell, it was interesting, Brian, because when I first saw that, I'm like, wow, I need to reproduce this because this is really important. To either say this is bullshit or that this is really happening. And then when you pull his procedure, he had one of those stupid smoking machines. It's like, where the fuck do you get that? Right? Yeah. He wasn't using the right test equipment. Can I chime in about.

2:28:50SpeakerHe's getting a lot of press and I think he's getting a lot of people concerned and worried about, about consuming concentrates this way. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I don't exactly know where to go with that, but I think that there can be some, some work. I know that, uh, Marcus Rogan, I don't know if you guys know that guy up in Canada. I think he kind of came up with some other type of device that can measure some of the compounds and looking at different conditions to try to understand what those degradation profiles are and what they're not.

2:29:26SpeakerBut I don't think that there's a good study out there that basically can quantify this.

2:29:31BrianI agree with you.

2:29:37BrianSorry, I don't know whose turn it was. Can I say one thing about degradation, then I'm off the floor for a sec? Please. Okay. One of the things that took, it took a minute to realize, because it's not obvious unless you're actually in it, that getting the things through phase change and out, it's about escape conditions. Boiling point and your running temperatures are the most important parts.

2:29:59BrianBut if you've got a You know, 385 degree banger, and it's got a two milliliter deep pool of stuff. Terpenes that are trying to boil at, you know, 50, 80 Celsius, they're going to be stuck in the tar. They're going to get time and contact to destroy themselves. Everything's spinning around into a thin film and a centrifuge. The vapor can escape. There's no time. Everything's always changing phase at its boiling point.

2:30:24BrianYou throw water at 250 degrees or a million degrees, it's Andrew Berman, MD, And we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. Andrew Berman, MD, We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. Andrew Berman, MD, We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

2:30:59BubblemanBrian, do you mind putting a couple videos up, like sharing your screen and showing some of the videos that, because earlier you said like when you came out of the distillation world, you were like, oh, I'm going to apply some of that short path molecular distillation or falling film or rising film evaporator aspect and kind of create bangers. It would be great if we, and if you tell me your Instagram account, I just couldn't find it.

2:31:24BubblemanI could find your personal one.

2:31:26BrianI've known you for like a decade.

2:31:28BubblemanI know, you got too many, dude.

2:31:31BrianWe had to reboot all our media. It's at D-N-A-I-L-U-S-A, just D-N-A-I-L-U-S-A.

2:31:38BubblemanIt's weird that that just didn't come up in my search.

2:31:40BrianI think we're a shadow band.

2:31:42BubblemanDefinitely a shadow band. Okay, I can do it. I've got some up here. You can keep talking or whoever's talking. I'll show a few of these.

2:31:50SpeakerOne of the conditions that I've been, Brian and Kylie, one of the conditions that I've been looking at is obviously there's vacuum distillation or ambient pressure and other situations. And

2:32:04SpeakerI think about it in terms of theoretical plates if we're talking about distillation. And the more you can get, the better resolution you should have. And so vacuums tend to reduce those and changing the pressure conditions and the vapor pressure and the temperature. Oh, that's a beautiful, beautiful tool. But yeah, looking at the thin film, it's a fantastic way to get things to flash off real quick.

2:32:32SpeakerAnd so long as you don't flood the plates or don't overload it, it's a way to get them to go pretty quick.

2:32:40BrianYep, but we can't dab under vacuum. If we could, my job would be easy. What we're doing is taking, you're right, the thin films, you're getting, they're there for better escape conditions. I've been focusing on trying to have every, this is going to be a good one. No accessories in it. You see how in that video, everything's spreading out into thin stripes. So this is, this is an attempt to miniaturize the, the aspects of a thin film evaporator or a centrifugal evaporator.

2:33:12BrianThe dabber coming in from the outside is running like your feed chamber. We run the dish at a lower temperature, like a prime. So depending on how we do it, how we control it, everything's going from Andrew Berman, Andy Verzura, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm,

2:33:53BrianSoil Grown, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm,

2:34:23BrianOverall concept, material science, fluid dynamics, thermodynamics. And I have zero PhDs. My company has zero PhDs. We just kind of think about how it all comes together and keep doing it.

2:34:36BubblemanDude, you don't need PhDs. You have DABs, bro.

2:34:41BrianPhDs. I like to think that I've spent more time thinking about DAB physics than most people. There's plenty of qualified people that could be brought up to speed, run circles around me, but they're usually doing more traditional, conventional work. Mark, by the way, you're one of the most important people in this industry, scientifically. I'm honored to be here with you.

2:35:04SpeakerOh, well, thank you. Which Mark? Oh, you.

2:35:10BrianMark versus Marcus. I'm Marcus. Marcus is industry glue.

2:35:15BubblemanDude, you're in the scientific community. I'm not, I'm just the humble host, please.

2:35:21BrianPeople like you hold us together, but we haven't, Mark and I haven't really talked much, but you pop up in a lot of circles and I've got a lot of respect for you. So it's really, it's really an honor.

2:35:30SpeakerThank you. The feeling is definitely mutual. I think that It's interesting that you say DAB physics because I never thought of it quite in those terms, but it certainly is. That's my field. Brian, I don't know if you ever see this misconception, but whenever you see the boiling points of the cannabinoids and they list THC at 157 or what, 315 Fahrenheit, right? They didn't realize that when Meshulam measured that boiling point back in 1964, It was at a vacuum pressure of 0.05 torr.

2:36:09SpeakerSo the boiling point at atmospheric pressure is much, much greater than that. What we found is that, yeah, if you use the nomograph, you can basically find the boiling point of THC is somewhere around 429 degrees centigrade.

2:36:30BrianWe're able to get some escape conditions at lower temperatures than that, but we are lowering the pressure with carb caps, and we're also, when it's in solution, it's going to have some aspect of being able to escape a little bit earlier. We are getting vapor with dish surfaces in the 400 range, but you're right, a pure diamond isn't going to do much more than melt at that point.

2:36:53BubblemanAnd what about diamondium? Can you tell us a little bit about that and why that's different from ruby or...

2:37:00BrianI can tell you a little bit about it, and I'm still OK. So the relationship between material science and DABs is something that I partially understand, having done this for a long time. This when when we did a global survey about nine years ago, the state of the art material science was the titanium guy saying quartz would kill you. The quartz guy saying titanium would kill you.

2:37:22BrianSo we're like, there's got to be more to it. We sorted materials by their ability to withstand the conditions. Both thermally and chemically, and then just started looking for additional answers. We settled on silicon carbide and sapphire as two of the materials we wanted to introduce. And we've done a lot of work with other things. This one in particular, and once we had an understanding of the kind of things you'd see on a material spec sheet that would actually lend themselves to flavor, This kind of topped the charts theoretically, but at the time it was hundreds of thousands of dollars a kilogram.

2:38:01BrianSo we laughed and kept going. Some patents expired, some prices came down and the market changed. That pillar that you just showed has a retail of like $550 and it's 18 millimeters by six. It is expensive, expensive stuff. We wanted to do the inserts because we thought we'd actually be able to get them cost effective. And ended up doing small parts. And what we saw in small parts was flavor reviews in effect, in excess of what we thought was possible from small parts.

2:38:32BrianSomeone putting a five millimeter sphere in a banger, flavor reviews off the charts. Now, the basic thermal properties, that stuff moves heat over a thousand times faster than quartz. It's Thank you for joining us.

2:39:14BrianI, Mark's nodding, but in order to get in, that's some of the basics of it. And there's more to it that I literally don't know. It's, I literally don't know.

2:39:25SpeakerBrian, like I don't see much ceramic nails anymore. Are those things gone?

2:39:29BrianThe, the ceramic nails that were, the full ceramic nails that were popularized were low grade alumina prone to explosion. And I think enough time has passed that I can say that the company was more of a stock market scam than a company.

2:39:50BrianSo there are options for full ceramics. Everything that we like would be dramatically more expensive than quartz. We're still making ceramic parts, ceramic inserts.

2:40:01Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineDoesn't Puffco use a ceramic bowl?

2:40:04BrianYeah, they're using... I believe they're using a higher quality alumina than Hive used to use. Hive was the company that really popularized ceramic nails, and they shot that in the foot. Puffco, I would say, I haven't tested it. I think it's alumina. It's the only thing that would fit their price points. People make aftermarket parts for them, quartz, silicon carbide, sapphire for the most part. But other than silicon carbide inserts, There's one that people have been using aluminum nitride.

2:40:35BrianMark, if you can find a paper that says anything other than aluminum nitride degrades in contact with water and shouldn't be used for dabs, I'd love to see it. Because I've gotten a lot of shit for saying that.

2:40:47SpeakerWell, you know, a lot of things with those ceramics is they're manufactured in bulk. And unfortunately, a lot of them are made over in China. So you always got to wonder like what kind of trace components might be in there. You know, just like the whole thing with shiny metal, you know, objects that you're getting from a Chinese factory could have any number of, you know, cadmium, lead, mercury.

2:41:12SpeakerSo are the impurities that are often present in ceramics just basically take those completely off the table?

2:41:23BrianNo, not completely. Ceramic is as broad of a term as metal. If you say you can't get good ceramic, you say you can't get good metal. You can't get good glass. It's just anything can be done with a standard. And ceramic is one of the broadest categories of materials in the world. One of the reasons we're doing trade names now is because everything we've done in new materials has opened us up to having a lower grade impure copy of it done or some version of it, in many cases so cheap that people cut us out of our own marketplace.

2:41:52BrianSo I've found that I've given people the The inspiration to make bad products.

2:42:00SpeakerThat's an interesting way of looking at it, right?

2:42:06BrianIt is. It's, you know, it's hard to patent stuff in this industry. And even if you get it through now, no one particularly cares. So it's when we when we did silicon carbide and sapphire, we just talked about them as what they were. People are using Jewelry grade sapphire and ruby on everything. We're still using optical grade sapphires on everything. Big difference. We used to pay $250 for sapphire parts and sell them for $300 because $250 was what they cost and no one wanted to pay more than $300.

2:42:38SpeakerNew technology. Had the issues with supply chains affected your raw material costs much?

2:42:48BrianRaw materials, not so much. Actually, the electrical components for the DNAL controllers have been the problem where we suffered. For raw materials, quartz is going to go up a little bit. Every place that we were finding our raw materials were going to go up, we were able to address it with bulk increases and purchases to keep everything the same. But yeah, no, we're going to see crazy inflation and everything is going to be weird soon.

2:43:14Etienne FontanBut you are also seeing other companies coming around and start to knock off even your, you know, here, you know, you're saying, you know what I'm saying? So it's, it shows you that you were ahead of the curve and the industry is coming around to your thought once they realize and understand what they are having, what they're dealing with. So I want to thank you personally. I've been using your stuff for nearly a decade or, you know, since your inception and your consistent availability to always improving yourself and never settling for what is out there and always pushing the boundaries is something that needs to be applauded and commended because it's very expensive and hard to do this type of research and development.

2:44:02Etienne FontanAnd I thank you for the love you've given me and the discounts over the years. Aaron Wiggins, CFO Alphabet and Google Docs, Microsoft Office Word Document MSWordDoc

2:44:26Etienne FontanAaron Weissman, CFO Alphabet and Google, The CFO of Alphabet and Google.

2:44:41Etienne FontanKahone is to do that. So thank you for being a leader and a pioneer in that resolve, because that's why I continue to follow you. And what you do is because you don't settle for what's out there. You don't even settle for your own. You're always trying to find new paths and new pathways, which too few companies in the DAB industry are doing. So everyone wants to be second, man.

2:45:07BrianMy wife, my wife says that all the time. It's so cheap to be second. Thank you. That really means a lot to me.

2:45:15BubblemanOh, ditto for me. I froze up, but exactly what he said.

2:45:19SpeakerSame for me, Brian. That diamondium is next level, for sure. Worth every penny.

2:45:26BrianThank you.

2:45:27SpeakerKeep up the good work, Brian. Yeah, you're working at the same, man.

2:45:31Collin PalmerDragonfly family. Big love, man. Your work is top notch. No one touches it.

2:45:37BrianAnybody want to give me like a billion dollars and a bunch of grad students that no one needs back anytime soon. I got stuff to do.

2:45:45Dr AllisonMaybe I'll be able to find you some grad students.

2:45:48Etienne FontanI don't have a billionaires. You know, you're watching and you want to contribute. These are the people that are passionate, that care, that take the time, that are always thinking out and thinking through it. These are the people that are leading us in a better, more healthier, And more helpful way, you know, any type of harm reduction one can do. I'm a permanent patient. OK, so any type of less harm that I can do to myself, the better I can prolong my life and I can educate my patients to prolong their life.

2:46:19Etienne FontanSo thank you for giving us the tools that allow us to help prolong people's lives. That's something I think that isn't really thought or understood as well. But you understand that gravity and you challenge yourself to do better. And that's, again, more reasons why I love y'all.

2:46:36BrianShoulders are giants, too. There was a there wasn't a scene. I mean, like I it was it was a crime most of my life. It was it was weird to not pursue an academic career and decide to just work on this.

2:46:55BrianI couldn't imagine a different life. Proud to be here with you guys.

2:47:01Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThere could be a lot of health practitioners that don't have jobs anymore because of mandates. So, you know, you could have like a lot of people on your hands.

2:47:11SpeakerIf people are giving away a billion for research, I could use two billion.

2:47:21SpeakerWelcome, Sam, by the way. Holy smokes. I didn't even notice that Hash Church was on. I was laying in bed and then and I looked on the computer and I said, oh, fuck.

2:47:34BubblemanOh, fuck. Well, you made it, dude. I'm telling you, I was going till noon today. So we still got about 15 minutes.

2:47:41SpeakerWell, there's nothing. 15 minutes will really hold everything I have to say.

2:47:48BubblemanThat's it. That's all you're going to say. Hey, don't you have one of those index labs units? I absolutely do, correct.

2:47:58SpeakerHey, Sam. Let's do a dab, guys. Howdy, howdy. What are you guys smoking on?

2:48:02Collin PalmerOh, gosh.

2:48:06SpeakerI forget what it's called, but it's pretty, it's fairly good.

2:48:11Collin PalmerDo a little check-in. I got some stuff that I want to give a huge shout out to 710 Labs for gifting me a plethora of their work. And everything that they'd gifted me was stellar and really impressive. And I love seeing people with such passion. And I hope to sit down with you all one day in session. Thank you. Stuff is phenomenal.

2:48:35SpeakerWhat I'm smoking is rosin, but I forget the actual name of it. I'm sorry.

2:48:43Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI wanted to big up. Go ahead, ATN.

2:48:47Etienne FontanI got some Arcade Fire, Eagle Scout Rack is what I'm dabbing on this morning. Good shit.

2:48:56Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineNice one. Nice one. I was smoking on some Hank earlier this morning. That I got from Marcus Bubble Man and some of the people over at the Embark and that product that was pretty tasty. Also, I wanted to shout up Best Friend Farms, Brian over in Maine. He's just becoming DEM peer certified and out on his farm in Maine and connecting with the community out there and the regenerative farms and just everyone's doing really good work out there.

2:49:31Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd the genetics that he's been breeding just for on a personal level for himself is just really amazing. And the rosin and all the different creations that he's made. And obviously he's been on hash church lots of times. So we just wanted to big up there, Best Friend Farms and really the whole main Group is, is really pretty phenomenal. And they're doing, doing really beautiful stuff along with Michigan and not to leave out anyone, but, you know, I'm talking about, you know, Brian over there and just wanted to say, you know, you know, the work he's doing with hash and rosin and, and also breeding and then now, you know, whole ecosystem farming and health and wellbeing is pretty, it's pretty spectacular.

2:50:16Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineHe was supposed to be here today, man.

2:50:18BubblemanI sent him a link.

2:50:21Collin PalmerYeah, you know what?

2:50:22Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI'm not sure why he's not.

2:50:23Collin PalmerI spoke to him yesterday and this morning, actually. So, Brian, if you're listening, he might be having technical problems. He said he's been having some Internet issues. But yeah, I second everything you say. His work is top notch. Maine is an incredible place and some amazing talent. I mean, I've got some Brave Boat Gardens right here from Maine, incredible indoor stuff and the whole Maine community. Big love to you guys.

2:50:51Collin PalmerHopefully I'll join you one day.

2:50:54Etienne FontanAlso, Brian, Mr. Schroeder, these type two caps, you should get a Nobel Prize for. I mean, these are absolutely brilliant, absolutely intelligent, so easy to use, makes the flow.

2:51:10BubblemanExcept if you unscrew this and lose the piece, and then you have to use these with the tweezers like this.

2:51:18BrianI'm going to get you a new dabber. It's not like it was. It still works. Take a good look at the one ATN's using versus yours. There's clearly six years of technology between them. Oh, you got one of the old school ones. Yeah. The first carb cap was a straight hole and it splashed everything. So we just made a quick change to it to mix everything. The one that ATN's using, completely different physics.

2:51:46BrianYou have to use like half as much pressure to hit that, right?

2:51:50Etienne FontanYes, compared to this one, which was a previous iteration, which was, I love these. These are great. These are great. I wish you still made these. I know it kind of was part of that early, et cetera, and you've made the taller ones, but these are perfect size. They only have one. I know you'd probably, now it would have two holes in it if you actually did them currently, but...

2:52:13Etienne FontanThey're just perfect size and weight. But I like how you also, these cascades matter because of heat absorption as well as this stays a lot cooler up here than if it were down here or if it were straighter. So these types of curves as well as swells in the glass itself make a difference in how long you can keep Keep the dabber on top to absorb because of again, the older technology of the dabs we were using at the time.

2:52:44Etienne FontanBut every single thickness of it as well, I could hold it and sustain it for a longer time for a longer slow tap dab than if I did something and these first gen de-nail caps that of course the heat just sank so quickly all the way up here. If you went as long, you would literally burn your fingers trying to remove this metal as opposed to this glass.

2:53:11BrianActually, if you have our dabber instead of another one, our dabber has a heat sink built into it, and it's got a thinner area where you can handle it.

2:53:20BubblemanIt does.

2:53:20BrianAnd Marcus was holding up a cast sterling silver topper that our friend's family made. I think there's like 10 of those in the world. That was just some gifts that we had for Christmas. My wife's got one. I don't know where the rest went.

2:53:37SpeakerBut man, there's so much to it. Yeah, you got one.

2:53:41BrianI think that was your Christmas present a couple years ago. There's a lot of work left to do.

2:53:46SpeakerHere's the reflex machine you were talking about, Marcus.

2:53:52BubblemanRight on. Kylie's in the room, Sam, the gentleman who designed that unit.

2:54:00SpeakerWhich one is he?

2:54:01BubblemanI'm right here.

2:54:03SpeakerOh, howdy, howdy. Nice to meet you. Do you have the insane 1100? I don't know what the Insane 1100 is.

2:54:15SpeakerThere's the larger units. It's got portable battery power cells in it, and it weighs a ton, and it's just hilariously over-engineered.

2:54:27SpeakerI don't think mine has batteries in it.

2:54:31BrianSomeone help Kylie find a workaround for shipping. He's getting regulations and there's got to be a workaround.

2:54:37SpeakerOne thing I can tell you about this pipe is it makes almost everything taste better, especially the first half of the hit. Kylie, share your screen, dude. How do I do that? No, I'm not there. Can I just talk? No, you know, so there's a bottom there. If you look in the bottom menu of the screen, there's a green share screen icon.

2:55:04BubblemanI've got him pinned right now. So his screen is the main screen everyone's looking at. Is that working?

2:55:11SpeakerThere you go. Yeah, look at this thing. I work on myself, but here's a new briefcase I'm taking out to them. I don't have that big model. I don't know why I don't have it, but I don't. I don't know why. But I really like it, but it's fairly complicated to use compared to a regular dabber. That's my only complaint. Yeah, you have to understand how the size, shape, and quantity and composition controls the vaporization process, and then set your Timing periods, like on your unit right there, you have it set at like 40 seconds.

2:55:53SpeakerSo at the smallest elements, you can run it continuous, like up to five cycles or 500 seconds. But when you use the larger, the quicker heating materials, you want to set the timer at a lower period. For instance, with the glow sticks, I like setting at 25 seconds, running it, that'll get me right to preheat. At the very onset of vaporization, you'll taste those light volatiles and that sweet nectary flavor.

2:56:19SpeakerAnd then I'll turn the dial down to 10 and run subsequent cycles from there to extend the session without overheating. Like I said, everybody, it's complicated. Yeah, like playing a musical instrument. You really have to master it to get the most.

2:56:35BubblemanThat's one that I want to master. I want to learn this instrument.

2:56:38Collin PalmerI want to play that thing.

2:56:40BubblemanWell, you're welcome to come on over here.

2:56:43SpeakerAnd you can play with it for three days in a row if that's what you like.

2:56:49BubblemanNice, dude. Open invitation to Skunk Man's house to play with this reflux machine? Come on.

2:56:55Collin PalmerHow to use it.

2:57:03SpeakerThe one I've been using a lot lately is this one.

2:57:13SpeakerThe Scope and Stack? Yes. That's what it's called? Yeah. I've heard great things about that one too.

2:57:26Collin PalmerSomeone in the comments said this is where we start selling stuff.

2:57:30BrianHey, a lot of the stuff of mine you guys plugged, I don't even have in stock. Don't worry about it.

2:57:36Collin PalmerNow that's for you guys to decide, listeners. They're definitely worth it, though.

2:57:48BubblemanI like the conversation, that's for sure. Go ahead, Brian.

2:57:50BrianYeah, me too. The people that I know and I know how they dab and what they do, I've done some promotional stuff with Bubble Man in the past, but it was never a paid promotion. It was here's a thing, do an honest review. If you like it, speak well of it, but otherwise don't. The What I'm seeing here, it's not paid promo. It's people that know this industry inside and out telling you guys what they actually believe in.

2:58:20BrianAnd for whatever my word is worth, that's the truth, not an ad.

2:58:25SpeakerThat's the way I see it as well. I've never paid for any promotion whatsoever. I just let word of mouth be my only marketing.

2:58:32Etienne FontanYeah, and that's why I've used my word of mouth to spread the words of those companies that haven't worked. You know, I go back to having the first, the Temp Temple, which was the first, I guess, electronic rig after the highly educated, I guess, was the first one. But it was in such limited quantities, I couldn't find one. So I had to order one of those Temp Temples from Canada, which is this crazy Xbox with a crazy,

2:59:03BubblemanThe big chrome one.

2:59:05Etienne FontanYeah, it was obnoxious, but it worked. I also had to create and shift the actual coil around the nail originally because it didn't come attached or have an understanding. So I've seen the progression from starting off in myself 2011 with the torch and then looking for something that didn't scare women or people that are around because You know, when you're just hanging out, you whip out a fucking huge old fucking blazer.

2:59:35Etienne FontanPeople fucking get nervous because their association from television and everything is that you're using crack. You know, so they start to think that, oh, Jesus Christ, he's using a fucking creme brulee torch and shit.

2:59:46BubblemanDude, we just used the straight propane torch, like ghetto heating up spoons and shit. Like, we must have looked completely psychotic.

2:59:55Etienne FontanAbsolutely. And so then when these more refined products came available and Temple didn't last long. And so then it was to find anybody who was producing any type of electronic nail. And you've been a trailblazer from your initial creation, which was the first one. That I found that was kind of a plug and play. Everything all fit together. It was easy to assemble. It wasn't intimidating out the boxes.

3:00:23Etienne FontanThere's no way I could take somebody who was a patient and then get a temple and show, okay, now you're going to need crimpers and some major actual wrenches here to wrap this thing around this titanium. You know what I'm saying? So, whereas...

3:00:39BrianThose ones also caught fire. They had just a thin little piece of electrical tape. Yeah, that raw aluminum shell. There were live terminals like three millimeters away from them when the electrical tape that they just kind of put over it came off. Fire. Well, they were pretty, they had a good idea. They did it, but I mean, like they shouldn't have. I've fixed a number of those and I've talked to a number of people who like tables or rooms or houses burnt.

3:01:06BrianI was doing high energy experiments in my apartment late at night when they were putting them out. But you're right. And that's one of the bigger picture stuff. This industry, you can just slap something together and sell it. There's nothing stopping people from making bad products here at all. I don't know when that's going to change.

3:01:29Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSeems to be encouraged. We got our first vaporizer from Ontario back in probably the early 2000s and it was a botanical. They sold it as a botanical vaporizer and they gave you a whole catalog of lavender and basil and mullein and mint and thyme, all the different things that you could smoke in it. But it was a kind of cylindrical shaped little unit and it had a ceramic bowl in it and i forget the name of the company at the time but it was it was the first one that we ever saw in the electronic form before the volcanoes and and some of those earlier you know different you know vaporizers that became popular the volcano was before 2000.

3:02:18Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYeah, oh yeah, I met those guys in Germany. I know, but for some reason we didn't have the volcano here in the Kootenays early 2000s yet.

3:02:27BubblemanI brought it to BC, bro. I brought the volcano.

3:02:30SpeakerAnd the volcano could be used for dabs. You just put that fat little... Brillo pad? Yeah, the Brillo pad, exactly. And my dry sift bubbled and melted and vaped. Perfect.

3:02:45Collin PalmerWe used to use like you're describing a bowl when we drill on the top and put a tube in and then take a soldering gun and then put a metal piece on top of that and then put the material on top of that and let it vapor.

3:03:00BubblemanI got turned on to vaporization in 95, first in Jamaica by a Rastafarian elder named Red who showed me this very simple method that they were using to vaporize cannabis with, which blew me away. And then the same year, I had a booth at the Cannabis Cup next to Eagle Bill. And he had like the heat gun with the quartz bowl. And I was like, all right, let's give this a shot.

3:03:25Collin PalmerThe Stenil gun with the big like.

3:03:27BubblemanStein L, yeah.

3:03:28Collin PalmerThe huge Stein L.

3:03:30Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThe first time I saw it was in 98 at Holy Smoke on a coal. That was the mayor.

3:03:37SpeakerThe first vaporizer I saw was 1985 in Santa Cruz, California. A friend of mine named Chris Card invented it, and it used also a heat strip gun to function. Thank you for joining us.

3:04:15SpeakerIt wasn't safe to use. He came up with this and yeah, he spread it to all the buyers clubs in California and then eventually it got around the world and companies like Volcano and others got involved.

3:04:31Etienne FontanMark McCoy too. Riptek made an actual glass connector, which is a two-piece that you could actually slip your hot air gun into, and they promoted the Steinels. And why the Steinels is because the Steinels had a ceramic core as opposed to a metal core.

3:04:49BubblemanAnd no asbestos.

3:04:50Etienne FontanCorrect, no asbestos, so you were inhaling it. I used to roll into parties with a Vriptek and a bong and just destroy parties and then quietly just disappear and people were like, what the fuck just happened? It was... Same, same. I still have mine right over here.

3:05:05SpeakerThey were doing it with weed. They weren't doing it with hash, right?

3:05:08Etienne FontanCorrect. We were only doing it with weed. We were not doing it with hash. You are correct. No. No way, shape, or form were we even thinking about hash because we had access to more flour than anything. Again, this is the late 90s in LA and stuff like that. So I got one of the first machines, the original isolator machine, when I worked at the Galaxy Gallery back in 97, 98.

3:05:36Etienne FontanAnd that's when we started playing with hash, but before then. It was strictly just, you know, what we could do with flour. And prior to that, the only extent of a vaporizer that I had heard of was that cheap piece of shit that they sold in head shops. Some friends of mine grabbed when I was up in Pennsylvania, they grabbed at a head shop and it was a plastic piece with a soldering iron with a flat soldering, you know, kind of a piece and a glass piece over it.

3:06:04BubblemanThe BC vaporizer.

3:06:06Etienne FontanYeah, it was just.

3:06:07BubblemanThey sold like 12,000 of them or something.

3:06:10Etienne FontanMake those things. That was crazy. It was the worst thing ever. We were so excited to try it. Once we tried it, it was like, this thing is awful.

3:06:18BubblemanDid you ever get to try the Volatizer from David Wheeler? The small little wand that fit into a quartz bowl? Because prior to that, I was vibing with the Vriptek and I was condensing the oil in the glass stem of the Vriptek bowl and it would be a red oil and I would dab it, smoke it on a little bit of bubble or whatever. And then this volatizer came out and the whole bowl was quartz.

3:06:43BubblemanAnd it was the first quartz vaporizer that I'd seen. And what I noticed was that the oil, when it was turned into a vapor and then precipitated back into a liquid in the stem of the quartz, that it no longer did that into an orange or a red liquid, but it precipitated back into an absolutely gold liquid. And that was like a huge sort of revelation back in like the, you know, the late 90s or whatever.

3:07:10BubblemanWow, that's cool.

3:07:12SpeakerAnother thing nice about the reflux is that they give you this little, for the bowls. Well, this is the bowls because even though they're glass jars, they're what fits into the Reflex. And it works really good because you've always got a clean one.

3:07:40SpeakerYou can see those ones are the used ones. These are unused.

3:07:48BubblemanThat's sweet to have that many as well.

3:07:54SpeakerYeah, it's nice being able to preload your full day if you want to. I'm figuring I'll probably go through 50 loads at the Emerald Cup in a day. Something like that, just rapid fire. You need a rotary feed like I have on my gas chromatography. It holds 96 little bottles. Oh, like a revolver. That would be sweet.

3:08:18BrianI gave out like a pound of oil at one of the cannabis cups. 50 loads might be low.

3:08:23SpeakerYeah, you gave it to me. Don't you remember?

3:08:26BrianI gave it to like a thousand people.

3:08:30SpeakerI just constantly changed my clothing and got them all.

3:08:36BubblemanI used to give around 100 grams in dabs out at the Cannabis Cup in Amsterdam, and I did it for, I don't know, like a decade and a half or something. It ended up being a fair chunk of hash for sure to give away in dabs. Literally a pound in a day.

3:08:52SpeakerAt Legends, we definitely smoked more than 100 grams.

3:08:56BubblemanOh gosh, yeah, absolutely. But it wasn't all mine. I wasn't gifting it to everyone. Although the legends in Vancouver was.

3:09:02SpeakerThe first couple legends, most of it was mine. But after that, everybody had really great stuff.

3:09:10BubblemanI'll tell you, people, you know, that's what legends helped. It helped people step up and be like, I want to make cash like that. Like it just, it seemed like there needed to be a thing. It was just too, it just, there just needed to be a, like a little light at the end of the tunnel that people could catch a glimpse of and be like, you know what?

3:09:27BubblemanI saw it. I'm going for that. I'm going to get there. And then they start, you know, growing exceptional cannabis and, Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:10:03SpeakerTo Marcus and then he would let you in with that entry.

3:10:09BubblemanYeah, and I never took any of the hash. I never like smoked it. I just would look at it and be like, yeah, that hash should be in the room at Legends. And that's how that's really cool room each year.

3:10:19Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd now look what it's going to and it'll just get bigger. And so, you know, I was just going to say it's nice to recognize which we talked about before was that the origins of you know hash making and some some of the hashes like Malata and India are just having just such hard times right now so any way that people can like learn about what's happening in Malata and Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand all the the mountainous regions and parts of India you know India is corporatizing their cannabis right now like lots of other countries have in the world And origin cities and origin hash making places in India.

3:10:59Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineRight now, a lot of those families are going to jail. And Hem Vati on Instagram is a woman that we've connected with over the time. She's active on showing, you know, what's going on there. And we appreciate her for that. So, you know, anyone that, you know, loves hash, And, you know, and maybe has a voice somewhere that can help out in India, you know, and write the correct people and stuff, you know, that it would be greatly appreciated because, you know, there's out of, you know, out of thousands of people, you know, hundreds are in jail right now and they don't know where they are or even, you know, how to proceed with, with court cases and stuff.

3:11:39Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo, you know, grandmothers and grandfather hash makers right now, You know, getting swooped out of their mountain villages and brought to a prison somewhere is, you know, super crazy.

3:11:53SpeakerSo have you been to India and visited those places?

3:11:57Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI have, I have, I would like to do it more, but we did a trip up the Parvati Valley and spent time in Castle and up in Tosh and up in Ratchel and in that area. And we didn't go up to Milana, but, you know, that whole kind of Kulu and zone, we did see that. We went to Dharamsala and And, uh, McLeod Ganj as well. I've watched the Korra and spent time, you know, learning more about like, you know, the, the Tibetan teachings and, and also their refugee statuses and, and the whole free Tibet movement and what's happening to Tibetans in India.

3:12:43Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI mean, there's People all over the world in strife. So yes, we have been there and we've continued.

3:12:50SpeakerYears and years ago, the only country that was making both hand rubbed, dry sift, Gerda, and was cashmere. There was no other country in the whole world. Cashmere was the first country to be making both types commercially.

3:13:16Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd now Pakistan just legalized, I hear. And I heard Imran Khan just like cut ribbons at a brand new like, you know, open cannabis farm in Pakistan. And also, did I hear right that Dubai is now open to cannabis? There's new laws passing in the world that are pretty mind-blowing.

3:13:38SpeakerThat's nothing. So has Malaysia.

3:13:42Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWell, that's the connection is that Dubai and Malaysia making, and I think the Queen of Dubai potentially is working on like a CBD product, but then that could open up Indonesia.

3:13:57Etienne FontanDon't forget about Germany.

3:13:59Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThat's huge. Well, and then the seed companies that got busted in Spain. So there's like a crazy, you know, you know, bust that happened in Spain and there's a huge seed company transition happening in Europe. So Europe's really kind of, it feels like there's a lot of flux happening there at the moment. I'm not there obviously, but we have a lot of family over there and it seems, so yeah, Germany,

3:14:30Collin PalmerWhen the seed bus happened, I could actually hear your voice, Sam, saying, well, they broke international laws.

3:14:41SpeakerYes, well, they did. But the real problem, I think, down there was I'm not exactly sure of the circumstances, but it's not legal to cultivate in Spain for seeds. So I'm guessing LaGuardia like ran through their shit.

3:15:05BubblemanIs that what happened?

3:15:08SpeakerI'm not sure exactly what happened in Spain, except for that there was a big mix up.

3:15:17Collin PalmerSo I was told it was federal, their version of federal agents. I don't know what that really, you know. What that looks like.

3:15:24Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBut I know that the court case that they're in right now over it is definitely a potential, you know, transformation of European laws. We know it because it is such a, you know, a big court case and there's there's pretty large seed companies involved. So, you know, I hope it all works out, you know, in favor for the companies involved in there because some of them are close, pretty close friends with ours.

3:15:52Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo. Yeah, that's a shame.

3:15:57SpeakerI don't think any of the seed companies selling seeds from Spain, the research companies are licensed, but I don't think any of the seed companies selling commercially are actually licensed by the government to produce their seeds. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

3:16:16BubblemanSeems like a big open space that nobody's filling. I guess they just...

3:16:20SpeakerAlthough that's why they went down to Spain to get out of Holland.

3:16:26SpeakerAnd then they didn't follow all the Spanish rules. Because, see, you could sell seeds from Spain, but you cannot... You have to have a place you produce them. And if you produce them in Spain, you have to be licensed by the government. But what about Portugal? I don't know what the regulations in Portugal are, to be honest. You get a feeling they're a lot looser.

3:16:54Collin PalmerYeah, I was under the impression a lot of people are doing it through Portugal, but I don't really know.

3:17:02SpeakerWell, it's been decriminalized there, right? All drugs. Yeah. I'm heading there in July, so I'll ask around.

3:17:10Etienne FontanYou have a mission. Yeah, it's really simple. Is it legal to bring cannabis?

3:17:20SpeakerIs it legal to grow cannabis in Portugal for seed production? That's the question. And I have no idea.

3:17:34SpeakerNo one does. I was going to say that. When I moved to Holland, it was. You could grow in greenhouses, and as long as you did not divert the cannabis to illegal markets, the seed production was legal. That was until about 1998 or 99, I think they changed the law.

3:17:57Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI think Switzerland has areas where, you know, it has favorable laws and we want to shout up our Switzerland family out there, Edelgreen Swiss Farm and everyone out there doing amazing work, you know. Yeah, there are jurisdictions that are, you know, doing well. And also, I know that always people are looking for a better spot, so.

3:18:22SpeakerWell, I know a couple Swiss breeders who have now moved into the U.S. There's one big breeder down in Oregon somewhere with high VG and a lot of different varieties, but they originated in Switzerland. I think maybe part of the regulation that we're dancing around here is the fact that they couldn't have a decent seed export business. So they set up here in the U.S. and are now producing seeds here in the U.S. And what they have a bet because they want to sell in the U.S. Yeah, they want to sell it to the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere and They can produce seeds in the US, and I know that they're crushing it.

3:19:07SpeakerThe genetic backgrounds for those Swiss material came from Italy, if it's what I'm thinking of. Interesting. I think you're correct. I think that's right, Sam.

3:19:18BrianI have info in Portugal, according to the internet.

3:19:21SpeakerYeah, I just found some too.

3:19:24BrianIt's still illegal to grow, but they have industrial hemp law, and most likely any relevant seeds would have to come from a plant that you can't legally grow. Unless you found some way to get a THC bearing strain through the industrial hemp regulations. It looks like there's a lot of stuff in flux in Portugal.

3:19:41SpeakerWe were talking to a guy on Adam Dunn's show the other day about tissue culture. And does tissue culture get around the regulation on seeds? Probably not, because a lot of the regulation is not just seeds, but like in Portugal, for example, it's illegal to grow, period.

3:20:04Collin PalmerSo like a plant has a germ plasma? Yeah, like germ plasma would probably still be considered.

3:20:10SpeakerConsidered, yeah, illegal. You get into some really interesting... DNA is rather illegal, but the plant itself, if it's a little mini clone or grown through cellular culture, is illegal in most countries in the world. Yeah, but I mean like some of these things are just sort of like, it's like a little sachet. I think these things are usually filled with alginic acid. And it's just basically a piece of meristem.

3:20:36SpeakerI mean, you'd have to do some microscopic analysis to determine that it was cannabis or hemp. Yes, but if that was done, then it would be illegal.

3:20:49Collin PalmerSomeone just asked in the chat, you know, Oregon CBD Company, they're working with the university out of Mississippi or something they're saying, or just the university. I don't think it's Mississippi, but... I would believe that's under the federal guidelines of the hemp bill, right?

3:21:05SpeakerYeah, that would be under Dr. El Soleil at Oxford University, correct. Got it. Oxford University, wait a second. University of Mississippi. No, University of Mississippi in Oxford. Yes. Excuse me, yes. Oxford University at Mississippi, correct. Yeah, they're not the same place. Yeah. Oh, Mississippi. No, they got better catfish in Mississippi.

3:21:32Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThanks to everyone today. We're going to take off and enjoy this beautiful Sunday. Super cold and lots of sun. Got snow on the ground. Love you guys. Beautiful days.

3:21:42Etienne FontanWe'll see y'all next week at the Emerald Cup.

3:21:47Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineNo, unfortunately, we won't be able to make it. And a few of the farms will. But it's, you know, big up to Tim Blake and the family for making it happen. Much appreciation. There's some good regenerative talks Jesse's putting on and some of our farms are involved with definitely anyone involved. Go check in with the family at Emerald Cove.

3:22:09SpeakerAnd we'll be sad that this year the teepee will not be up. And it will be sort of the first time in a really long time that it's sort of, you know, it really sort of defines what's been going on these days. And we're sending all of the love and all of the gratitude for everybody who's gathering. And still joining and celebrating cannabis in the community. So we're not going to be there.

3:22:36SpeakerWe'll be sad, but we're stoked everybody's getting together.

3:22:40Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYeah, hopefully next year it changes.

3:22:43SpeakerYeah. I know.

3:22:45BubblemanThanks for coming, guys. Thanks for coming. I wanted to, you know, thank everyone actually for coming. Thank Kylie for coming in from Indux Labs. Thank Nick for coming in and sharing, you know, his experiences and information. Always a pleasure to see Dr. Mark and Etienne and appreciate you coming in, Brian, and of course, Colin and Wade and Etienne. Awesome to have both of you in as well.

3:23:13BubblemanAwesome to have Dr. Allison slide in for a little bit earlier, Josh and Kelly, and everyone really who's been watching, the 333 people who are watching this very minute. Appreciate you all. Go have a great Sunday with your family, with your friends, with your pets. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:23:58BubblemanThank you for watching. May the full mouth bless your bowls sooner than later. Peace out, everybody.

3:24:04BrianThanks for having us. Thanks, Mark. Thank you.

3:24:07BubblemanThanks again, man. Peace.