Quality and Sensory Experience in Cannabis

0:04SpeakerAll right. Welcome, everybody. Sunday morning at 9 a.m. Here we are at Hash Church 4.0, Episode 7. I'm going to do a few things here real quick and send out the links. Always important. Always important. We'll get the chatters in here. Take care of them first. We will accept. Etienne and Johnny fucking B to the room. And I think just like that, we are a go. What's going on, gentlemen?

0:46SpeakerGood morning. Good morning.

0:51Etienne FontanWelcome back from Mexico, John.

0:52SpeakerFuck yeah.

0:55Etienne FontanHow are you guys?

1:00Etienne FontanI'm here for an hour to say hello and I'm going to go have breakfast with Rob Clark because he's in town.

1:06SpeakerClark's in town. I heard, I heard it was his birthday. So happy belated birthday to Rob Clark. I had to FaceTime with him a couple weeks ago, maybe two or three weeks ago. And he invited me down to kind of go down to California and hang out and see everyone. I also spoke with Ian Davidson the other day. I don't know if you were there. He was out there with Mojave and Todd and Rob and Sam.

1:35SpeakerAnd hopefully that was a nice time as well. I wish I was in a position to come down and hang out.

1:42Etienne FontanYou are. You are missed, but I will convey your love and appreciation as always.

1:50Johnny BThanks, brother. Grab the phone, go live, and then go boom, just to do a FaceTime.

1:56SpeakerThat's what happened the other day. I was hanging out with Amir and he just called Rob up on FaceTime. And so it was nice to get that little bit of FaceTime.

2:08Etienne FontanI will try to see what I can do.

2:12SpeakerI will. Well, no stress either way. Sometimes, you know, Rob is the more Yeah, it's all in its mood. On the download. Exactly. It's on the download. Doesn't always need to be live. But hey, hello everybody out there in internet land. We've got about 67 people so far that have popped in at 9.01. We've got Dirty Grows and William Wonder and Cuget Sound, John Maddox, Tara Lee's in the house.

2:41SpeakerWe've got, oh geez, Bingo Lombardi. Pembina River, BBNF Guy, Uncle Buck, and a couple of Steve's. Potent Ponics is in Thailand right now. Who recently sent me this beautiful little hasher hoodie and hat. Got to give him a shout out. Hashhead Outfitters over on Instagram. Hashhead Outfitters on dot com. Hashhead Outfitters dot com. I didn't get a hat. I do 20 different things at a time.

3:21SpeakerWell. All right. Dr. Mark in the house. Mr. Wade Laughter in the house. Beautiful, beautiful. Sunday morning, familiar faces. I guess Sunday afternoon for Dr. Mark. Sunday morning for the West Coast boys and girls.

3:42Johnny BI haven't done a dab in 11 days. Jesus, Johnny.

3:49Johnny BI might get, I might, I might have to, I was waiting, you know, I might have to go grab, grab.

3:54Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI'm sorry, what?

3:56SpeakerI don't, I could have two. It's okay.

3:58Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWe have two?

4:00Etienne FontanSorry. It's all good, Wade. So, John, what is the first thing you're going to smoke on in 11 days? I bet you selected it.

4:09Johnny BSitting on the counter, I was like, I think it's some wedding cake live rosin from a squish. Yeah, it's what I actually, I smelled those. I'm going to wait for a hash dress. There's no point. I was thought about it this morning. And I was like, I really just want to do my first step with you guys. You know?

4:28SpeakerWe appreciate that. We appreciate that. Johnny just spent like a week and a half with Tony Robbins in Mexico doing the Tony Robbins thing and hanging out with influential people and getting all inspired. So that's where Johnny B's been for the last week and a half.

4:47Etienne FontanThey weren't into dabbing? Really, Johnny?

4:49Johnny BThere's no dabbing, but I did meet a lot of people on plant therapy. I met people who do a lot of ayahuasca and stuff like that and talked about how they're getting to regenerative healing and natural health. And dealing with different energies when it comes to being able to enlighten ourselves. So it was very much a trip of fulfillment and happiness education with yourself and learning those great things and how we kind of grow forward, right?

5:13Johnny BIt's all about growth. It's all about understanding and how we can kind of keep moving forward in what we do here as a team. That's how we as a camps community is. We join each other together in order to keep growing and look at our future. Look at that next hundred years and what we can do for the future. And yeah, you know, plant medicine is the key here, guys.

5:35Johnny BAnd we're part of that. We're part of that push and keeping it real.

5:42SpeakerOh boy, the link's not working for Colin.

5:45Etienne FontanI don't know why.

5:46Johnny BSometimes those links don't work, but we send them another link and Colin jumps in. Isn't he a vessel of life?

5:53SpeakerI was having some trouble finding the link for today's meeting until I realized that my email server stacks emails and I have to thread through the old ones in order to find the one that's relevant to today. So thank you, Marcus. You did send the right link. It just took me a few minutes to find it. Awesome. Well, I never mind sending it again. That's for sure.

6:16SpeakerI just re-sent it out to the whole group. And yeah, welcome to Nick. He's in the house as well. How are you feeling, Nick? I know you were feeling a little under the weather there. Are you feeling a little bit better today? Yeah, yeah. I'm actually feeling okay. It was just three weeks of hand harvesting. Multiple hundred acres was just wearing down. Those 16-hour days harvesting hemp, huh?

6:41SpeakerYep. Is that for cannabinoid content or? For all of the above. All of the above. Yeah, doing a bunch of new trials on different processing methods and harvesting methods and growing methods to maximize aromatic content as well as cannabinoid content.

6:59Johnny BThat sounds awesome, Nick.

6:59SpeakerYeah, it's good fun.

7:01Johnny BThat sounds really awesome. I've never met you before, so it's nice to meet you. Likewise. John? Yeah.

7:08SpeakerOh, you guys have never met each other before?

7:10Johnny BNope. He opened up his awesomeness when he was telling us.

7:18SpeakerJohn, what's your... Go ahead. Sorry, John, what's your story with your group?

7:27Johnny BMy story with my group?

7:29SpeakerNo, with everybody here. So I just, I don't know everyone.

7:32Johnny BI'm sort of new to this. I'm... Cannabis Accelerator likes to help people with the industry. I've been involved with the industry for a very long time. I worked with Dr. Paul Hornby in the very beginning and taught me how to actually decarboxylate cannabis to bind the receptors and I became a published study on natural cannabis and pain control in 2007, 2008. And from there, I met all these lovely people over time because of the passion with the plant.

8:01Johnny BAnd we connected with Mark on a Thank you for joining us today.

8:32Johnny BNow I have to go get my ball. I'm going to torch and do a dab with you guys.

8:37SpeakerYeah, Johnny's just lost like, I don't know, like 90 pounds. So John was a little bit heavier and he's been, first of all, John didn't even get into the tip of his story. He fell like 30 feet off of a scissor lift like 20 years ago and broke like most of the bones in his body, smashed his head on the second floor coming down as he was spiraling off the scissor lift.

9:01SpeakerAnd shattered his jaw and broke his neck and broke his back and shattered his arm and shattered the whole side of his body and was completely addicted to pills. He was a zombie. He used to carry around this big cooler and in it were all these pill bottles of oxycodone and all these other horrible things that, uh, That were that were that he was taking and he was just a full zombie and he fought he was one of these guys that had like signs out in front of his house because he was like not suing workers compensation but they were just really trying to fuck them over huge so he's kind of he had that whole thing going on and eventually he got onto cannabinoids and and essential amino acids and like linked up with Dr. Paul Hornby and got off all of these drugs and uh You know, John is a super unique character, but he is the most incredible, amazing guy in the sense that his drive and his discipline is kind of second to none when you really get to know him.

10:00SpeakerHe's helped build this company Medtainer without even owning it. I think most people thought he owned the company, the way he put the energy into it and the way he sold that product. And just an overall fucking awesome dude. Good, good guy. Not a victim at all, although he could be. He could easily be, oh, I'm a victim. Poor me. Woe is me. But he's more like, fuck this.

10:21SpeakerI just got to get better. And then honestly, since he broke like almost every bone in his body, he's probably been in another three or four accidents. It was less than months ago. He got T-boned by a truck. He even has video footage of this truck just going like 100 kilometers an hour and smoking him and flipping him upside down into a ditch. Like it's, it's, it's pretty wild.

10:43SpeakerYou can't, you kind of can't even believe what Johnny B's been through, but here he is. He's in our group and we love him.

10:51Johnny BLife has been happening for me, not to me. That's the way you got to look at it.

10:58SpeakerAll right.

10:58Johnny B100% of the problem, 80% of the solution. That's how we move forward in life because we all have stories and we all go through tough times. We people make weak times, right? Weak times make weak people. Strong people make strong times. Strong people make great fucking times. And that's why we're all here and making great times in life. Because everybody here has a unique heroic identity of what they've done in life and where they're going, which makes it just so much more rewarding of being able to connect with everybody to push them to that next level.

11:30Johnny BAnd here we help inspire people to do what they need to do for themselves. And that's why you guys are all amazing. And I love you all.

11:37Etienne FontanThank you, Mark. Remember, everybody falls. You know, it's how you get up, right? There you go, Ashwin. And I'm around everybody here is everybody who stands straight back up again and keeps walking right back into that wall because I love y'all.

11:55SpeakerThat's it, man. That's it. I want to welcome Julie. Julie's in the house from Canareps. Canareps is a really cool local company that's You know, kind of just teaching bud tenders and people alike about the Somalia effects. Actually, Julie, you're going to want to hook up with, link up with Nick, because Nick is really a sensory scientist and what you're doing at Canareps and teaching people about the genetics and where they come from and the volatile organic compounds.

12:23SpeakerThere's no one that I know that knows more about that than Nick in regards to, you know, volatile compounds we in the cannabis industry haven't even been talking about for the last, 20 years. He's been studying in the hops industry as well as the cannabis industry and just has a really beautiful way of putting it. I'm hoping Mark Lewis, Dr. Mark Lewis is going to come in from Maypro today as well.

12:47SpeakerHe posted a really cool article recently on is the limonene in your cannabis the same as the limonene in your botanical terpenes. And it's an article that they posted on LinkedIn under NAPRO if anyone wants to go check that out. But it really got me thinking like, oh, I want to get Nick and Mark in here, as well as Dr. Mark and some of the other characters that are around and kind of open up this conversation.

13:13SpeakerBecause to me, it's there's the least said about it. And, you know, I just love the idea of this sort of You know, on one side, we call it the sommelier aspect. On the other side, you know, Nick's more calling it the sensory science, which is really, really what it is. So introduce both of you guys to one another. Yeah, I'm excited for this because I've read some of his articles and I'm really interested in discussing it more.

13:37SpeakerAnd I think it's important to note that they're not different things. They're different sides of the same coin. Sommelier aspect is more curating it to what the individual is after. Aaron Wendel, And the sensory science of it is analyzing what's in there and analyzing people's reaction to it and trying to understand what drives the experience so it's a. Aaron Wendel, One is is sort of experience focused and customer facing and the other is much more about understanding the interactions between people's.

14:06SpeakerAaron Wendel, sort of. Adam Middleton, Edmonton State University Health Care Center, Health Care Center, Health Care Center, Health Care Center, Health Care Center, Health Care Center,

14:24SpeakerYou know, what this all stemmed from, at least for me, was a drive for quality because, you know, any seasoned cannabis consumer is going to want to fine tune and explore all the different nuances that cannabis can offer. And I got really frustrated during legalization, seeing cannabis menus being displayed as THC percentage, maybe CBD percentage, and then the brand and then the cost. So it just trained the industry to think, hey, you know what?

14:59SpeakerSo potency equals value. And that's what people and people are always driven by value. And so as this training, this market training happened, It drove the industry to really push for high potency product. But then you forget about the flavor experience, which is the sensory experience. And as I was really getting deeper and deeper into this, I wanted to I stimulate a discussion about what quality is.

15:30SpeakerAnd it really starts with input, right? Like what Marcus and everyone here is talking about. So it's the cultivar first, right? How did the breeder or the flower itself get to a particular point where the flavor is so exceptional that and then it gets cultivated? What are the inputs in the cultivation process that leads to better quality? And then that leads to a better sensory experience, whether that is the smell, the taste, right?

16:01SpeakerAnd then even the touch. For me, I love it when I roll up a joint and it's so sticky that the joint just sticks to itself and it rolls to itself. Like that's an indication of quality to me, but I wanted to open it up to this, you know, group of experts here and talk about that, that definition, because, you know, I think if we can inspire and encourage the general market to say, hey, you know what, it's not just driving for high potency products, but it's also, you know, the the all the the All of these things that make this particular product, especially for cannabis flower, so unique.

16:43SpeakerAnd then this all drives down to, you know, what the trichome and what hash and all the derivatives that you can make out of it. But it starts off with the plant. So that's why I'm here today. Thank you, Marcus. Thank you, Nick. Well, thank you. When you talk about quality, that's I think it's a really interesting

17:04SpeakerI think that's, sorry, I just opened the YouTube link. That's a really interesting distinction because one of the things that I worked on a lot was sort of differentiating quality from character because quality is to me defined by, you know, terms like HACCP. So like, you know, hazard analysis and critical control points where there's no danger to the consumer. Jason Schifferman, MD, That it's meeting certain certain standards that have been set so that it's like you know it is, it is what it says on the on the label like it is, it does have the the cannabinoid content that it claims.

17:37SpeakerBrad Hokanson, There's no pesticides or any harmful factor or any harmful things like that. It's got a good shelf life. There's no mold or mycotoxins or aflatoxins, all those aspects. Whereas character is much more of the sort of descriptive aspect of it. So this is like, yes, this meets our quality standards. This is good enough for consumers to have. It's at the right moisture level. It's not going to rot or anything like that.

17:58SpeakerBut when we talk about character, that's more of a descriptive analysis of what is I think it's important to consider both because they are linked, but I think that it's also important to differentiate them, especially as the industry matures. So good quality for me is much more about

18:33SpeakerMichael Boucher , You know meeting certain standards that we've set as an industry, which is one of the reasons that I do like. Michael Boucher , The idea of regulation just for consumer protection, I think that you need to have people that know what they're doing on those regulatory bodies. And are familiar with the product rather than just sort of abstract individuals. But I think that it is very important to distinguish sort of the descriptors of the material from quality components, I guess.

19:04SpeakerAnd I'm not trying to sort of assess, like assert my vision, but I think it's an important discussion to have.

19:12Etienne FontanWell, it's extremely important because here we are in California. We're four years in with our head up our ass because the Department of Cannabis Control can't seem to understand that cannabis is an unstable product. And so they're not dealing with, you know, air quality control inside of packages. So we're dealing with oxygenation, which, as we know, is causing, you know, anaerobic decarboxylation. All kinds of problems that are inherent.

19:41Etienne FontanThey're not keeping it refrigerated so it's stable like they do with alcohol and other products. So just they're inherent because the majority of these people are policy wonks and not actually users of cannabis. This is one of the major reasons why California cannabis is struggling right now is because they can get better, fresher product from their local plug. Then there's decaying, you know, anaerobic decomposed cannabis that is oxidized red.

20:09Etienne FontanYou know, if it's three, as you know, six or nine months old, it changes chemically because of the oxygenation trapped inside. And if they were actually using something like combinations of nitrogen and CO2 injection into the flower, into the concentrate to stabilize it so that oxygenation doesn't continue to happen. I think California consumers would find a more stable product available to them closer to the representation on the vine than whatever the fuck they're getting in the end.

20:41Etienne FontanAnd I want to say, fuck pre-roll cones. Thank you.

20:44Collin PalmerWell, one thing I wanted to point out is I think, you know, as we became, you know, domestic producers and not importers of the product, this is the conversation I had last week with Rob Clark and Mojave was We historically are still trained that, you know, these, these feelings are the driving factor from this era that where we didn't really understand what terpene profile was because we were importing it.

21:09Collin PalmerAnd by the time it got to us, we didn't really know these flavors or never experienced them until really the, till we started producing it here in, you know, in the States. And we got, like you pointed out at the end, fresh cannabis. And we, with that, we have these profiles that we had never really seen before. And what's really fascinating is as we go forward into production, like Nick just beautifully pointed out, and others, we don't really have a standard for what should happen during growth, in the middle of growth, and when post-harvest happens.

21:44Collin PalmerEveryone has their own SOPs and their own version of what should happen. And that creates a lot of holes and it creates a little vernacular that we all can't stand on, right? So with that you know there's there's so many things like you said there's there's no you know you just put it in whatever jar you know there's headroom there's that that chemistry that's happening all the way up until you finally stuff in your bowl or vaporize it whatever your use case is is chemistry is happening you know and and there's a lot of things that we have yet to agree on that need to happen to make sure that that product or that that particular varietal is represented From the moment that people like us see it, which is super fresh and really volatile and lots of amazing flavors and tastes and smells.

22:29Collin PalmerBut to your point, there's broken systems that are jammed in between all this, all these things that we're talking about that make all of this stuff even more difficult because we have standards that once it leaves the farm, what are their standards, right? Until it gets to the district, not even district, to the retail shop. I think there's just a lot to talk about before we even get to cultivation because there's psychology, there's a lot of years of misinformation.

23:03Collin PalmerAnd I think that's what we're talking about here is trying to demystify a lot of those things that we just quite frankly don't truly understand.

23:13SpeakerWhat I wanted to say is even taking a step behind that even before cultivation is really looking at all the work that the breeders have done to create a variety that is Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so happy to be here.

23:52SpeakerAnd so, you know, and the reason why this triggered me was because I would, I smoked a GMO, right?

24:11SpeakerI got no garlic. I got some mushroom and I didn't really get the onion. I got more dirt and mushroom. And I'm thinking, okay, the breeder that created GMO put the word garlic first. So I'm assuming the flavor connection to garlic should really be there. And I'm so glad that there's a lot of scientists here because I've also been in... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

24:40SpeakerThank you. Thank you.

25:04SpeakerGeez, that's not a combination of terpenes. That is a combination of other chemical compounds, right? Yeah, so the cheese, garlic, onion are typically thiols and thioates, as well as some of the components that are associated with diesel and gas. You get some of the tridecanes and the didecanes and some of those volatile sort of components that are more sort of ethereal and more solventy. And those in conjunction with those thioates give the impression of some of the gassy notes.

25:41SpeakerAnd it's really interesting what you're saying about variety because I have a slightly different take on it. And that is that, and this is going to be a little bit of a long-winded thing. So I think variety and the breeder's intentions are very important. But there's two aspects to consider, is that one, the breeder bred this in their particular microenvironment and their particular growing system. And they arrived at this final chemovar.

26:14SpeakerThis is what it expressed in their system. Cannabis has a tremendously strong G by E sort of interaction, genetics by environment, that depending on how it's grown, where it's grown, how it's treated, it will express different components. Then you have the whole aspect of harvest time. And you mentioned this earlier, like these volatiles early in the growth period will smell like one thing, and then later on will smell like another.

26:40SpeakerAnd rather than that be sort of a limiting factor, I think that's sort of an expansive opportunity for, for, for growers to express what they want to come out of that particular varietal. And I think that's really fun. And rather than sort of limit ourselves to like, this is, these are the narrow boundaries that GMO must express, or these are the narrow boundaries that great might express or so on and so forth.

27:02SpeakerYou can choose to harvest at different times to get different expressions of that, of that material. Of that plant. And I think that's a beautiful thing because I tend to favor, rather than the heavy onion, garlic, gas, cheese, I tend to favor the much fruitier, lighter esters and some of the light tropical fruit thials early on, and the terpenes obviously as well, early on in the process, rather than the heavier, later sort of, as people have described it as heady, but the very garlicky, cheesy notes.

27:36SpeakerAnd so I think it's important to give...

27:42SpeakerDavid Wiltshire, Growers especially and then then by through growers consumers, the opportunity to experience the plants at different stages of ripeness because that expands the the ability to to to to provide different experiences for people. David Wiltshire, Now you can go the opposite direction, which is that you can say this is what the micro environment that you want to grow this variety in. And we're going to set that if you're going to call it this, it must be grown within these parameters and it must be harvested within this window to deliver this consistent experience.

28:19SpeakerAnd that is one approach to it. The other approach to it is to celebrate the variety of the different experiences that one can derive from a chemovar in, or I guess a strain within its life cycle. And for me, from a And I think that's, that's, that's another art that should be brought into this is cannabis blending rather than single strain. I think it's a really fun opportunity.

28:59SpeakerAnd then one last thing, and this goes back to what Colin was saying earlier, is that, you know, the, Varieties will age differently. And this is something that we've seen very much in the hop industry in that different balances of compounds will oxidize and age and change at different rates. So as a variety goes through storage or curing, which we've seen for many varieties, it's not well understood yet.

29:29SpeakerWe'll see that certain varieties will stale very, very quickly. Some will actually reach peak aromatic intensity after weeks and some others will just fade off immediately. And I have seen the same thing with cannabis strains and it's a challenge. And so I guess to what Colin was saying earlier, you know, Working together to have industry best practices for storage, I think, is a good idea to prevent staling and to prevent, obviously, any negative impacts for the consumer, such as mold development or anything like that, and cannabinoid degradation.

30:13SpeakerBut I think that that's a separate conversation from looking at the sort of intrinsic aspects of each individual cross. Does that make sense? It does.

30:32Johnny BYeah.

30:32Dr Mark ScialdoneI'd love to. Those sulfur-containing compounds are called thiols. And sulfides, a sulfide is a thiol. Those compounds, while they're not terpenes, because they're mostly like pre-enolated sulfides, they are derived from isoprene, so they do fall into the bucket of terpenoids. They're terpenoids, they're not terpenes. So those pre-enolated sulfides that Oswald and others have now identified as sort of the skunky essence of Cannabis are indeed similar to those that are naturally found in things like onion and garlic.

31:18Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd what you know, Nick, is that those sulfides, which are at the two oxidation state, sulfur can go up in oxidation. And so sulfides tend to oxidize into sulfates and bisulfates and things like that. And so those compounds have much lower volatility than the parent sulfides from which they're derived. So the sulfides themselves are certainly volatile, certainly have that funky essence. But yes, as you mentioned on oxidation, on just exposure to air and light and a little bit of moisture and probably a little bit of acid from somewhere, catalyzes basically the oxidation of those, volatile sulfides into, into oxidized forms, which don't have the same, same nose profile as the, as the parent sulfides.

32:19Dr Mark ScialdoneThe other thing I wanted to say is that, you know, a lot of, so esters, yes, have certainly like a really, really sweet essence. You can take a putrid smelling acid, like butyric acid. I hope that you've never had to smell Butyric acid, it literally smells like puke, right? Or decaying flesh, I think, or I don't know, it's just got- And in small amounts, it smells like Parmesan cheese.

32:47Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, right. And so that's, again, where, and you know, Nick, that our nose and our olfactory sense has developed this exquisite ability to distinguish between, you know, cheese that Doesn't smell good in cheese that does smell good, right? Or just, you know, flowers from say a pile of dog shit. But like, certainly like, I think where the human sense itself is again, part of that, like what we were talking about earlier, the cannabis experience that, you know, if you're just in the dispensary purchase and the mindset of somebody who's in a dispensary, right?

33:34Dr Mark ScialdoneATN sees this every day, right? Someone's going to maybe not be able to smell the actual product they walk away with. So what's the other data point they have to look at? Oh, okay, THC content. Again, you're already in that mindset that I'm in a dispensary, I'm paying top dollar, I need to get some kind of measure of value for my purchase, where when you're going to your guy who provides you with legacy stuff, you open up that bag and you can smell it and there's that interaction that humans have with cannabis right which is that joyful discovery of oh man i can't wait to put this in my bowl and smoke it smells so good right and i think that you know again for the lack of better you know people have talked about this whole lab shopping thing where people are trying to find labs that basically inflate their thc results to basically create this is all an artifact of prohibition And hopefully as prohibition ends, as we see this thing unfold, all that kind of shit will go away because I don't know, the way I look at it again is that, yeah, it's a quality artisan product if that's what you're after.

34:52Dr Mark ScialdoneSome people just want Paul Malls from the 7-Eleven. You know, that's not me and that's probably most, not the people in this panel. And again, that human experience that you miss out when you do just get Paul Malls down at the, 7-Eleven is the opening of that bag and the smelling of that. I'm sure ATN and ATN buyers get to experience that, right? It's like a farmer shows up with a bunch of weed or a crop and it's like, okay, they get to experience.

35:20Dr Mark ScialdoneThis is what our customers are going to enjoy because I'm kind of substituting as a bud tender or whatever, a buyer for a dispensary, you know, that quality that we were talking about earlier, you know, Quality is a very subjective thing. And I think certainly the terpene profile plays into that. Jar appeal, right? ATN is very, very important. It's got to look good in a jar. It's got to be someone, you know, wants to see frosty trichomes and, you know, you don't want to see larvae, you know, sticks and stems.

35:56Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd the last thing I'll just say is this whole thing around, you know, prohibition is, again, because In certain markets, Prohibition sort of makes artisan and quality products out of financial reach for, say, common individuals. So they're forced to go buy, you know, products that maybe just aren't as high a quality. And I think that that's going to hopefully go away when Prohibition goes away, hopefully.

36:24Etienne FontanThis is why things like the NO2 cans haven't taken off for people because they still want to look at their pot. You know, those tuna cans, you can't see inside them, whereas people still want to look in jars. Even a couple of months ago, I even got a set of jars. And of course, you have to pick them up and you look in the bottom. And as I pick it up and look in the bottom, what do I see?

36:46Etienne FontanI see hermaphrodites with seeds inside of it. So I can still see what's inside of it, as opposed to if it were in a tin. I can't. And so quality control still rules the roost. And with more educated consumers, they want to see what they're getting. End of story.

37:04SpeakerOne thing I wanted to bring up, you know, that Nick kind of mentioned was, you know, you touched on was, was the ideology, you know, of mixed phenohunts. You know, I think there's, there was a study that I embarked on in a year long one of popping seeds versus monocropping the single clone of that same varietal. And what I found was a much larger spread of terpenes and cannabinoids from those, from those mixed phenohunts.

37:30SpeakerAnd I felt like that You know, I want to get back to that type of work because I just saw like CBC upwards to 5%, THCV upwards to 10%, and then running the clone, not even hitting for 1% of any of those compounds. So I think just in terms of the spirit of ideology and just theory, I feel like there's more to learning about the cannabinoid spread in a population that you might not otherwise see in a single clone that's being passed around to everyone.

38:08SpeakerAnd that same clone grown in five different environments to, like Nick said, it's going to express five different traits. So, you know, I just think you have a better shot of a mixed phenohunt representing a bigger spread of the population. If that's, you know, me throwing out theories here. There's something to it. You know, there's, there's, there's a lot to talk about. It seems, you know, we've gotten so far away from it, that ideology, it seems in farming.

38:39SpeakerSo yeah, one thing that one spots on that. Has anyone tried that before? Well, I was going to mention about You know, throwing out the idea that a clone or cutting doesn't have all the same anatomy as a seed plant, right? So it can't tap in and capture all that the earth has to offer that a clone would. So you're gonna be, you're gonna be, you know, stifled right out of the gate.

39:09SpeakerAnd then the other thing I wanted to mention is Yeah, the consumers right now are shopping from a dashboard and how challenging that is for them. And they're trying to deliver a poignant or pungent or potent product

39:29SpeakerWe're trying to give them that potent experience more so. And one thing that we have at the retail partner we're working with is smell jars. And this last time I was tabling there, I had our double OG chem that we're growing for Rebel Grown and some Gush Mint, very, very different. I was able to like go back and forth. Like if someone didn't like either one of those, Sure, then they could go get our Clementine.

39:55SpeakerBut if you were a basic consumer today or a savvy consumer today walking into a shop and you smelled either one of those profiles, you're going to walk out with something. And their mouth waters, their eyebrows pop, right? Like you can't have that or you don't have that when you are looking into a jar. And I've always liked the idea of the tuna can. Like, I'm a sporty guy.

40:22SpeakerI like going to the beach. I like backpacking. I like doing all these things. And like, yeah, that's like my emergency kit. Let's crack that open. But that's because I know what's in it, right? If you don't know, it's very challenging. I remember there was a company of four years ago, three years ago, they were trying to do like a code that you could scan that had a picture of every single person Thank you for joining us today.

41:01Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineHey, what's going on, family? Oh, hey, Josh. Nice to see you, too. There you go. Double Josh. And everything's going good up here. Snow's coming down the mountains. Got to get the potatoes and cabbages in. Last minute ganja, stuff like that.

41:19SpeakerWelcome. Welcome to everybody. Good to see everybody this morning. Good to see everybody this morning. Thank you. So just to continue this conversation, you know, I'm trying to essentially map out, and I absolutely agree, you know, the concept of you have a certain genetic and it can be expressed in different ways. And all the inputs that go to that in Somali terms is the terroir. And there's so much to it in terms of how it is grown.

41:54SpeakerAnd obviously a cultivar that is grown indoor versus outdoor, it might not have the ability to adapt to that particular environment. It depends on, you know, How, I guess, strong and adaptable that particular plant is. And so when we're leading to helping, at the end of the day, at least my prerogative is to help consumers understand. I train a lot of bud tenders and retailers, and they are selling blind right now.

42:25SpeakerSo that's absolutely right. It sucks because the fun of cannabis, you know, in terms of all of the sensory experiences Thank you for joining us today.

42:53SpeakerAnd so that's why I want to talk about if we could even break it down. You know, if we have readers in the room, let's talk about how do you get the plant or a particular genetic to express what you want, right? When we're talking about science in terms of Nick's perspective. There are the quantifiable parameters that we can find correlation to our experience, but our experience is also really biased.

43:26SpeakerWhen terpenes were really coming out strong, they're like, oh yeah, like when I get something that's rich in terpenylene, you know, like I get this kind of high and that is And experience, but I would say there's so much more to it, right? Like, you know, what is the impact of esters and thiols? You know, what are the other chemical compounds that affect your high, your experience?

43:51SpeakerAnd what are we not seeing, right? So many times when I dig deeper into cannabis, THC and CBD sure are displayed because in Canada you're required to do so. But you look at the analysis and there's actually another three, five percent of other cannabinoids that are not being listed. Well, what's the impact of that? You know, having a little bit of a different cannabinoid might have a high impact in your overall experience or the overall You know exchange of of that in addition to you know all the other chemical compounds you know we're talking about the entourage effect um and never mind um i also believe that a particular product may can lead to experience but there's different metabolisms and different uh tolerances in different amounts you know At the end of the day, we have to really look at, well, how much are you smoking?

44:48SpeakerHow often do you smoke? And look at that. So before we even get to the consumer guidance component, I wanted to say, how do we empower the bud tenders out there to really describe cannabis in a very confident way where we can say, hey, you know, Let's take a look at the cannabinoid profile. Let's take a look at what the lab analysis can give us. But at the same time, the personal experience is I know why you're here.

45:19SpeakerYou're here because, you know, this is a multi sensory experience when you consume it. When you are looking and smelling at this, we're using all your senses and we're all built differently. So how can I find the power of language to convert all of this science and You know, hard to pronounce words into something that is, hey, if you really like this, this really minty chocolate flavor profile, you know, I'm going to help you, guide you this way.

45:51SpeakerBut at the same time, someone that has, that might not be, that might not have a higher good tolerance or much experience might need something that is lighter. You see? So I think, you know, and I also want to have an expectation. And that's why I meant the whole GMO, you know, conversation or something skunk. I smoke. I never smoked a skunk. Number one, I wish I And I want to know what the best expression of that may be.

46:24SpeakerBut if I'm going to smoke a product that has been crossed with skunk, I have an expectation for it to taste and smell like skunk. But when that piece is broken, that's where I lose trust and confidence. And so that's why I say, you know, if we have the perspective starting off with the variety, the breeders variety, And then how, you know, what are, what should we expect?

46:51SpeakerAnd then of course the cultivation, right? And the terroir, and then the, all the entire environmental inputs that go into it. There's an argument right now, which I absolutely support and believe is, you know, living soil produces amazing cannabis. But you know what's even more amazing is, Thank you so much for joining us.

47:32SpeakerRight. So there's a complex thing about bag appeal, right? Sometimes you're going to get that variation. And then, of course, harvest and curing. There is a huge argument about that. And that's why this panel is perfect, because we have experts from everybody in different stages of this production that talk, that can talk about, hey, what, through my experience, can lead to particular quality. And then how do, essentially, how do we communicate all of these great inputs to the consumer in a way that makes sense to them?

48:09SpeakerBecause so many people are still hung up on the indica sativa spectrum, but it's not, you know, it's not about indica sativa. It's more so about the chemotype and the flavor profile and what the What the cannabis plant, you know, the full expression in terms of its lab analysis and its genetic background, right? So the lab component is a snapshot. It's like a picture of it. But what about all the work and the effort that goes in to getting the plant to produce those kind of results?

48:44SpeakerSo, um, to, and, and of course, um, there's, if we could, you know, I, I'm really interested to know if we could just start from the beginning, like seed to sale, because, um, you know, eventually I do want to get to moisture content and packaging and everything. Right. And how we, and as a Somali, you know, we. Thank you so much for joining us.

49:23SpeakerI can determine the primary, secondary, and tertiary aromas, right? But eventually, as you train, we will get you there so that you can have the power of language to communicate. So the question is, like for all the experts in here, what are the inputs that you're doing that really have increased quality from your production? Additionally onto that, Julie, I want to tag on a quick one, which is that we really need to focus as well on supply chain control.

49:58SpeakerSo like in beer, we talk about the cold chain and we talk about sort of best practices for storage and for packaging and then shipping and distribution. I think that's a really, really important thing to get, to get at least to have a sort of level playing field on which to judge all these different things. So. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Cause it's so unfair.

50:22Dr Mark ScialdoneLike I literally, I'll just, I'll just add again, going back to this whole THC potency thing. So when, when, when you buy cannabis or when you, it doesn't matter if you're getting it from a dispensary or you're buying it from your guy, your legacy guy, you're, there's a certain amount of moisture content in that cannabis. And the problem with the THC percentage is that typically in herbs, and this is not anything unique to cannabis, in herbs often oil content or if they're measuring a particular compound, that content is tied back to something called dry weight.

51:08Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd dried weight means absolutely bone dry, no water in there. And so if you think about it, if a bud which has a certain amount of moisture, and again, the other moisture consideration, just to talk to it for a second, is that above a certain moisture content, it can still support microbial growth. So after harvest, you know, the plant is rendered defenseless. It doesn't have its own plant defenses depend off microbes.

51:37Dr Mark ScialdoneSo certainly you can get mold growing If it's not properly dried and certainly like I think in bulk biomass when you're talking about hemp and you're talking about buying stuff super sacks at a time, understanding moisture content, it's more important to understand something called water activity. Water activity is the measurement that you actually measure in the lab that then You can trace back to determine what the moisture content is there.

52:14Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd typically, you want to try to keep moisture content below the threshold at which mold growth would be supported. But that aside, so if you think about it, when you buy a nug or when you get a nug and there's a certain moisture content, the THC content based on dried weight is sort of irrelevant because you're not smoking. So when you... When you send that sample to the testing lab, the first thing the testing lab has to do is they have to do that water activity measurement.

52:49Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd that water activity measurement tells them what the dried weight of sample is as opposed to it in its moist state. And the only way they can really do that in a high throughput way, again, just another Handicap of prohibition is the labs are forced to do that in an oven. And when you take that nug, that beautiful nug that you smell, it just has moisture in it, it has terpenes in it.

53:19Dr Mark ScialdoneYou put it in an oven to dry it out. Well, guess what? Not just the water dries out, right? What else happens?

53:30Dr Mark ScialdoneYour terpenes start to evaporate. And you start to decarboxylate your cannabinoids. And there was a really nice presentation given on online analytical seminar. I'm gonna not get the woman's name right, but she really hit this to the T where that can swing the percentage of measurable cannabinoids, just that effect alone, almost like 10, 15%. So now you have to ask yourself, okay, If you're recording THC back on a dried weight, what should it be in the actual product that you're actually buying, right?

54:10Dr Mark ScialdoneWhich is wet, not decarboxylated, and chock full of terpenes, the terpenes that you're attracted to, which is why you bought the thing to begin with, right? So this is, again, where this whole lab shopping comes up, is that labs can not, so what labs have to do is they have to measure The moisture content, because whatever is moisture in that flower can't be cannabinoids, right? So if you think about all the weight of a weight percent sample, everything that's in your denominator, there's a whole bunch of water that's in your denominator that you take out of the equation.

54:49Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd you can do something called vacuum desiccation at room temperature, where now you're not losing as much of the terpenes, you're losing some of the water, but guess what? It takes a lot longer to do. And because it takes a lot longer to do, people want their results immediately. They want to submit something and they don't want to wait like multiple weeks. And these labs are backed up.

55:13Dr Mark ScialdoneSo think about it. They got to do this moisture analysis to basically determine what part of the denominator is the water. Once they could correct for that, now they could measure the sample by HPLC And correct for how much water was in the original sample to get back to the, again, the driveway basis.

55:33SpeakerMark, can you just tell them it's like how the averages work too? Because I think that's important. It's like there's an average they have to look at because it's not, we know there's 11%. We think there's 11%, right? Like, can you elaborate on that?

55:50Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, it's actually, it's very complex because so the plant cells themselves, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

56:24Dr Mark ScialdoneSo like, so I actually worked on a project where we were looking at wood treatment chemistry, and we had to really understand the moisture and the relative humidity and how that affect the properties of the wood, because wood itself, here's the real interesting fact, sawdust sinks. Wood floats. Isn't that cool? We all know floats, right? But sawdust actually sinks. So actually, so wood is mostly air, right?

56:56Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's these cells of air. And like most plant structures, you know, they're not just there for humans to, you know, grow on trees and saw them down and make houses out of them, right? They're there as actually a physical respiration system for the tree to draw moisture and nutrients up from the root zone. And the sugar that comes down from photosynthesis in the leaves. I mean, at the end of the day, there's a whole lot of reasons why wood and natural material is the way it is.

57:29Dr Mark ScialdoneBut going back to cannabis, it becomes very, very difficult to say, get to that bone dry, zero water state. So I think what your question was originally alluding to, Colin, is that when you do the water measurement activity, The company that sells you the water meter also sells you a software package that then extrapolates that water activity measurement up to something called an isotherm. An isotherm is basically the measurement of water activity per chemically measured water content by something called a Karl Fischer titration, which is how you actually determine how much percent water is in material.

58:16Dr Mark ScialdoneBut it's very difficult to do a Carl Fisher titration. So if you have the isotherm curve, which is determined by a Carl Fisher titration, you can determine what the water content is. And it used to be, Colin, I remember when that number was 14%, then they moved it down to 11%. But, you know, I think obviously the lower, when you're buying, say, bulk hemp and you're buying like, Chris Brown, Chris Brown, Chris Brown, Chris Brown, Chris Brown,

58:55Dr Mark ScialdoneYou could certainly get microbial contamination in those bags as they sit in your warehouse.

59:00Speaker100%. Yeah. And then even material that's, you know, sitting and, you know, a lot of people are bagging to trim, right? So if that stuff's not dried properly, to your point, you know, they could lose that material without them even knowing, you know, you, until you open the bag and you're like, oh my gosh, like.

59:18Etienne FontanThat was a very common problem early on when we were buying kilos and looking through them is searching for those because people would spike a bag by throwing in a fresh bud, et cetera. And so, you know, you had to hunt for that. But going back to Julie's point, Familiarity and education are the most important thing for our bud tenders. We train them for a week before they even hit the floor.

59:42Etienne FontanI own and operate Berkeley Patients Group, which is US's oldest continuously operating dispensary. We turn 23 years old next month. By the way, I want to say happy birthday to Berkeley Patients Group on 23 years of out there and doing it. The more that the bud tender is educated and can communicate that with confidence and that they have that confident education, the better the consumer is to accept because the consumer is a lot different than they were previous to 2018 when it was strictly medicinal, right?

1:00:17Etienne FontanThey had specific needs, whereas... It's more of a curiosity now with the adult use market. They've now over the past four years become more accustomed to what those products and product lines out there. But initially they had to all show up to see what they had heard about for the previous 18 years. And to them, it's just like, you know, wow, it was really mind blowing. So to then communicate that properly And effectively and efficiently was a challenge when we're dealing with groups of five to 10 to 15 sometimes because previously we were dealing with a patient one-on-one.

1:00:57Etienne FontanBut that communication and that style was just as effective as that one-on-one as it was with those 15 because they were able to communicate that information confidently because they knew it, understood it. We use things like having the can of Bibles and all the groups of cards. Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:01:39Etienne FontanThoroughly educated to communicate it, not just communicate it, but communicate it confidently that they understand it, not weak and feeble.

1:01:51Etienne FontanAnd step out and say goodbye. I'm going to go meet Rob and them for breakfast. Much love, everybody. I love you all. Happy birthday. Robert said hi.

1:02:04Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineTake care, ATN. Have a great day. Big love, man. Happy birthday.

1:02:13Johnny BJust so you guys don't know, I do a 4,200 push-ups a month. It's the 42,000 push-up challenge. Put you in peak state. So it's 6, 8, 12, 2, and 4. I do 20 push-ups. And this has put me in this peak state. Makes me committed to myself, to my growth, to the education, to moving forward. Why am I so happy? Because I put myself in a peak state.

1:02:43Johnny BThat's it.

1:02:45SpeakerNice. You inspire me. Honestly, I don't even know if I could do like five. I started with two.

1:02:53Johnny BYou start with squats. It's about commitment, guys. Don't tell me you can't. If you say you can't, you're lying to yourself. So I challenge all of you guys in your life. Commit to yourself. Commit to your dreams. This is what we do. We grow.

1:03:26Johnny BBut you do it by committing to yourself too. So once again, every two hours, put a timer on your phone. We all got these suckers. Don't give me any excuses. Do two pushups, do four, do a squat, do a sit up. Do that for 30 days. I got Mark doing pushups. I got people around the world doing pushups. I got a guy in a wheelchair with one leg doing pushups.

1:03:52Johnny BMr. Toad, he's awesome. Right, guys? So that's what I do. And that's committed me to my garden. That's committed me to learning and educating and understanding water activity, how to grow, long-term cures, all this great stuff. Understanding LEDs, the new growing future, cannabis, cucumbers, peppers, and tomatoes, or what I'm talking about. Really understanding these turbines, really understanding the growth patterns and how we can actually grow forward.

1:04:22Johnny BSo that was it. That's my kind of morning. Do some pushups, guys.

1:04:29SpeakerThank you. Thanks, Johnny. We'll be doing our pushups. Go ahead. Thank you, Marcus. Been a great conversation already this morning. I kind of wanted to go back to the conversation about how a plant can express itself differently in different places and helping consumers understand that difference that GMO can express in many different ways. I think that's one of the keys to Appalachians of Origin in cannabis, which is a program that the...

1:05:03SpeakerCalifornia regulators are trying to roll out. I'm a big fan of because I do think that there is a chance for small farmers to succeed in that framework, if you will, to differentiate their product, be it GMO or Whatever cultivar you might be having to work with. If you're at, you know, 600 feet in the Central Valley of California, you're going to get a very different expression than you would get at 3000 feet in British Columbia.

1:05:34SpeakerReally different versions of exactly the same plants, exactly the same seeds. And I think this is really a key when you start talking. I mean, so far, the conversation today has been a lot about how to preserve the beauty of the product created for the consumer. And I think that really one of the keys for cannabis is to do with the specificity of how different practices, different environment, different approach, different intention even Can give different expressions to this plant.

1:06:07SpeakerAnd I think that's really the key of capturing the interest and imagination of the consumer is helping them to understand how differently this plant can express itself and how those effects happen in your body. And the other thing I wanted to mention in the conversation about terpenes and terpenoids, one of the things that has always been fascinating to me, I'm a very sensual person. I feel things in my body.

1:06:34SpeakerAnd when I smell a flower that's of interest to me, it Things happen in my body. I just feel it. I don't really know how to explain it more specifically than that. The Gangier program I think is really fascinating because you're trying to give words to those sensory experiences. And it's a really beautiful process. I found when I was working more actively than I am these days with plants, particularly with patient needs, One of the things that was always fascinating to me was when I had an opportunity to take someone into a garden of cannabis plants and ask them which plant was right for them.

1:07:19SpeakerEspecially children were really good at picking out plants that I might have picked without their input. And it turned out that more than once, those plants turned out to be the right one for that person. And I'll leave it at that. Much love, much respect. And I do think a key to the success of the cannabis industry is helping the consumer to understand what's available. We, particularly in Hash Church, one of the things I love about this is we are, each of us in our own way, incredible geeks about this plant and about the things that can be made from it.

1:08:01SpeakerMost people don't have the time or the learning or the desire to really understand all of that. What they want is the information that helps them be consumers that can find the thing they're looking for. And we all know this plant can provide that for those folks if we can help them understand how to find it. Wow, long-winded rant, there's Wade. Oh, by the way, I'm smoking joints today.

1:08:28SpeakerJust a couple of minutes before I got online, my clumsiness, I knocked my pipe off the table and shattered my glass. And now I'm rolling joints. But much love. Thanks. I figured everybody here could relate. Rest in peace to Wade's pipe. Rest in peace to Wade's pipe. I will say you're looking good, Wade. And I'm feeling your energy is high today. And I'm really, a couple of people have mentioned it in the chat.

1:08:56SpeakerAnd we like to see that and to feel that. I'm feeling like my body is returning to some version of the vitality I used to enjoy. And I will say I have really come to appreciate the privilege, the form of privilege that good health is. So if you're enjoying good health, celebrate that. Johnny B, that was a great call out on taking responsibility for caring for your body, doing what's needed to make your body as healthy as it can be.

1:09:31SpeakerAnd that's part of my fascination with cannabis. But cannabis is not the answer for everything. And really, physical activity is huge. Diet is huge. Mental attitude. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:10:13SpeakerSoothing. It grabs the attention of everyone in the room. And that type of leadership, whether you realize it or not, is unlike none that I know. It's absolutely incredible. And you're such a champion for the plant and for the people that produce the plant and the place. We sure love and respect you. Thank you, Craig. It's hard for, it's sometimes hard for me to be comfortable with that because like in this room, I look around and I feel such respect and awe at the people who are here to talk about their experience in this work.

1:11:02Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYeah. And that's what makes you such a respectable elder and mentor for us to look up to and learn from, you know, the humble state that you live in and that daily gratitude and just, you know, recognizing the beauty in everyone or And also probably the beauty and all the plants and everything. It's a beautiful teaching for us, especially in this day and age. And even in this industry, you know, when you get a lot of different types of characters and stuff.

1:11:33Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo thank you, Wade and Monica and the family that supports you at the house there. We do love and appreciate you. Thanks for saying that, Craig.

1:11:45SpeakerMy chickens were captivated by his voice. My chickens all came in and literally jumped up on the screen when they heard Wade. Like, that was incredible. Like, I couldn't believe it. He even has power over chickens. Animals do tend to follow me. Animals do tend to follow me around.

1:12:03Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI'll just build on what you said, which I feel is just a part of the movement that we've all been a part of all these years, which is it's knowing your farmer, knowing your origins, knowing your food, knowing your medicine. That's why medicinal was powerful in the beginning, because you knew your farmer and maker, and there was a level of trust there, and there was an understanding of what their garden did.

1:12:32Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo you understood what that GMO was because you knew the farmer. And you can't have appellations of origin and terroir without knowing the farmer. You can play around with regions and say, oh, this region produces something. But honestly, like, A farm's different, you know, down the same valley as another farm based off the practices that you put into it. So, you know, you're going to find different expressions and different soils.

1:13:04Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo unfortunately, some laws that have been created in recreational have taken away the ability to tout the farmer or talk about the farmer of origin, you know, especially in Canada when you're selling We've got a couple more questions here. We've got a couple more questions here.

1:13:41Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineA small batch, knowing your farmer, showing up to the dispensary, getting to know people and human interaction along with plant interaction probably is our best path towards health. We can use bulk medicine and oils here and there. We can eat bulk foods and do all those things, but it's not going to give us the same transformative health that we may need in times of sickness or in times of health.

1:14:14Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWe should be continuing our health path, even in our health. So, you know, you don't have to be sick to want to get better. You should just be better while being better. And, you know, if you're a A really humble regenerative farmer, you're able to get exercise like Johnny B says. You're able to interact with labs and understand microbes, microbiology, microscope work with teas and soils, and you get to know the science side of things.

1:14:49Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBut you also get the spiritual touch where you get to actually Thank you so much for joining us.

1:15:10Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:15:39Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWe have some special high-end ways of meeting up with people. I think that's a really good way to really learn for bud tenders to learn from people and from farmers to connect with consumers for consumers to understand farms better. And yeah, that's one thing to think about when medicine's going out to the market.

1:16:01SpeakerI couldn't agree more. I just wanted to share my experience. There was a time when I was growing a lot of vegetables for market. I would take it to farmer's market and to chefs and to the co-ops. And my experience working with the co-ops, not to knock a co-op, like we shop at co-ops and they're They can be a really good option, but often they're doing things to make money and they have to buy things at good deals.

1:16:32SpeakerAnd just like more often than not, I feel that I get disappointed with what I see actually coming through the co-ops. I see that they try to support a lot of local farmers and they often have their pictures on the wall. But when I look at the tags, like, you know, I live in Washington, it'll say California. I'm like that, you know, especially the lettuce, like where I live, you can grow lettuce year round, you know, with a little bit of effort.

1:16:56SpeakerAnd it's just like, it disappoints me. And so I just like couldn't agree more with what Josh said, is saying, you know, and I really think that's what You know, has made Western culture, made most cultures, let me retract that most cultures thrive is small farms and being connected to the food source and to who is producing products. And anyways, just wanted to like agree on that.

1:17:25SpeakerThank you, Josh. I think, you know, that opens up a huge can of worms because I'm watching the industry in terms of how businesses run these days. It's very much about big, big companies with financial backing and price skimming the market to undercut everybody else that's really having the right intention in Thank you for joining us today.

1:18:08SpeakerFarmer, like, sorry, like a farm to table kind of approach. It's more so about like, hey, let's hit the mass market. But I don't want to go there. I don't want to go there. I wanted to actually bring this conversation back to all the inputs for quality and then looking at the picture of at least the quantitative, right, analysis of quality. So a question maybe, Mark, you can answer me because this conversation about esters and vials and sulfites, I wonder where are they produced in the cannabis plant and What does that type of volatility look like compared to terpenes?

1:18:58SpeakerBecause I know that there is a huge following of cannabis consumers that love that gas, that funk, that skunk. And how this all relates to storage, because when someone, let's say a purchaser at a cannabis dispensary, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:19:37SpeakerWhereas products that are bright and sweet and citrus and sugary, right? Whether it's the storage or something that it doesn't last as long, right? It doesn't... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:20:20Dr Mark ScialdoneChris Brown, Glade Air Freshener Product, you know, that you plug into the wall. It's just some heating element that basically heats up a thin film that releases these floral scents. Yeah, when you first plug it in, it smells wonderful. It smells just like the flowers on the package. But about a day or so later, it smells, it's got like kind of like more of an antiseptic kind of clean hospital kind of general smell.

1:20:46Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's still a floral essence there, but you've basically done Fractionation. And Nick, you know this from the hop industry is that the most volatile terpenes, the way that fragrances are looked at is in notes, right? And so the way almost, it's kind of analogous to music, which is kind of cool. I think about it all the time. Like certain notes are really loud and You know, people actually use loud to describe cannabis.

1:21:20Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd I remember when it was first, you know, when I first heard that, I'm like, yeah, right. Loud. It's exactly, it's that, it's that, that, that punch that you get, that, that terpene punch. And yes, certainly, like you say, Julie, these compounds are fleeting. Nick could tell you this, that it's, it's a real challenge to basically capture the essence of the plant As in cultivation into a product, into the jar.

1:21:52Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd if you could do that, you know, that means you have a successful extraction method if you're going after concentrates. Because to me, it's like we know these things are cannabinoid producing machines. There's no question that we could extract the cannabinoids. The real question and what differentiates the different varieties And what a lot of growers put a lot of investment into, right, is the different varieties and the different flavors.

1:22:23Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd maintaining those flavors through a processed product is really quite a challenge because you have to treat these compounds with kid gloves, right, Nick? I mean, a little bit of oxidation goes a long way. And the last thing I'll remind myself is that When they package potato chips, they inflate those bags with nitrogen to make sure there's a pillow of nitrogen over the top of those plant oils, which if it sits on the shelf for too long, will start to go rancid if there's air in there, right?

1:23:00Dr Mark ScialdoneBut if there's nitrogen in there, nitrogen kind of keeps in the inner atmosphere, which also, I think, Nick, just the idea of like pushing by like, Like people have always talked about like vacuum sealing their herb and certainly for certain applications that's a great thing to do. Vacuum sealing you know you pull all the air out but there's certain machines that actually pull the air out but then reintroduce nitrogen to give you almost like a pillow of weed as opposed to this this shrink wrapped you know quarter pound that used to be this big is now this this small but like Again, the chemistry that goes on to preserve those flavors is just part of like the natural curing process that happens in cheese and pickles and yogurt.

1:23:51Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, really, this is like food gone bad. But, you know, food gone bad in a good way because of the way that the microbes are transforming that yogurt or the way that, again, like when you put pickling spice And you have a certain kind of chemistry that's going on in the curing of those pickles. There's things that are happening there that, again, is uniquely human, right?

1:24:15Dr Mark ScialdonePickles are a uniquely human thing, right? It's kind of like ayahuasca, right? We were there to basically put together these different components in a way that humans had to be here to do that. Right. Why is humans from the jungle? Yeah. And so go ahead, Nick.

1:24:37Collin PalmerI think it's a similar thing.

1:24:39SpeakerSo I want to do, I want to dip into this. So there's a couple of things that, that, uh, that Mark brought up that I think are in response to what Julie was asking that I think are really, really important. So, um, uh, your glade analogy is a great one. Um, but to make it more perhaps to, to cannabis, um, I won't buy anything larger than a, a half gram vape anymore.

1:24:58SpeakerAll right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

1:25:29SpeakerThere's a couple of different things going on. There's a lot of good things going on. So I'm just going to kind of try to riff on them as I remember. Obviously, light, heat, and oxygen are the enemies to a point. If you want to preserve it from the very, very first experience, you want to preserve all those notes, I think what Marcus has done with bubble hash and full melt and all that stuff and that separation, that concentration under In a low oxygen environment and under inert gas or something like that is the best way to preserve it because, you know, the vast majority of the compounds that we're interested in are in the trichomes.

1:26:07SpeakerSo being able to preserve those and concentrate those is really the way to preserve those aromatics. That's why I typically move to concentrates for myself now just because I enjoy it more and it's also easier in the lungs. That said, There is a role for oxidation, and you see that in the curing process, that some of those compounds you actually want to oxidize to get those higher notes or those heavier notes that you're after, like some of the onion and garlic, those are predominantly oxidized styles and so that they've become these very, very chunky aromas.

1:26:41SpeakerThat said, as you are smelling things and as the plant matures and as you go through your consumption, You will be selectively experiencing different compounds at different levels. So as an example, if you leave a variety past its prime, all the varieties will eventually tend towards heavier, skunky, garlicky, oniony aromas because of that degradation. They cease producing a lot of the fresher compounds. And a lot of those compounds are much more aromatically powerful And then the lighter top notes.

1:27:20SpeakerThe top notes are still there, but you just can't differentiate them unless you fractionate them apart. And that's a fun project I'm working on as well, is trying to really see how we can sort of blend to create these experiences using multiple feedstocks and stuff. And then also fractionate those feedstocks apart and create entirely novel experiences from different plants that you would never get that in one variety.

1:27:48SpeakerAnd so I think there's a lot of fun there.

1:27:51Dr Mark ScialdoneNick, I just wanted to say, you just reminded me of something that I wanted to mention that I forgot, which is that Dimethyl sulfide is kind of like the essence of broccoli. I mean, it's got that kind of like almost rotten egg smell, but more organic. And it's kind of like canned corn, tomatoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you take that up one oxidation state to dimethyl sulfoxide, now you got something that's got a real kind of like garlic, almost overpowering, kind of like, like, you know, the smell of DMSO.

1:28:23Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's very, very different than DMS. But that tells you that again, there could be like trace amounts of oxidation that happens to those thigh holes that takes them up to the sulfoxides or higher oxidation. It's on its way up to being a sulfate, which is a fully oxidized. And that's, again, I'm just throwing it out there. Maybe again, in the curing, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman,

1:29:13SpeakerAll right. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in about a minute or so. We're going to get started in about a minute or so.

1:29:41SpeakerThe mechanism I'm suspecting is oxidation.

1:29:43Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, yeah. A sulfide, if we just have a beaker of sulfide sitting here, as we speak, it'll start turning into, it'll just air oxidize. It's auto-catalytic. Yeah, like you said, that's light and air. There's enough oxygen and air to basically promote that reaction.

1:30:04SpeakerAnd even under inert gas, you're never going to get all the oxygen out. There's going to be some remaining in just in between the heads or in the plant matter. And even just, you also get cascade reactions where oxygen and hydrogen and water are going to be liberated throughout the process. So those reactions can also provide more of the sort of the base, some might say staling, or at least elements that can convert compounds into other forms and oxidize them or have them go up and down states.

1:30:40SpeakerSo it's really interesting.

1:30:42Dr Mark ScialdoneAm I correct, like in the skunky thing that happens with beer, it's a completely different set of chemistry, but still, Oxygen and oxidation is sort of rearing its ugly head there.

1:30:55SpeakerThere's a couple different processes there, but in beer, it's typically actually, it's called light struck. It's a light reaction. It's a photon that knocks off Jason Eckert, M.D. : A I forget exactly what it is so it's quite a complicated reaction but it's fun one and you end up with a I think it's three methyl to between dial, which is that that very skunky character. Jason Eckert, M.D.

1:31:14Speaker: and Jason Eckert, M.D. : Cannabis is also because of those those aromatics are some of the shared aromatics are. All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

1:31:52Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, so Nick, isn't it safe to say, I mean, to sort of address Julie's issue around quality and freshness, is that it's kind of like, again, I don't know if you could have kind of like an expiration date that makes sense, because in most cases, most expiration dates on products that are in dispensaries, they just, oh, six months, that's it, right at that day, right? So there's something, a magic that happens that particular day that makes it now expired, right?

1:32:25Dr Mark ScialdoneBut to put some type of like, I don't know if you know these little Boveda packs that basically act as kind of like the way a humidor would act in analogous way to tobacco. And do you think that there's something, so I actually, I forget where I talked to those guys. I think it was on Future Cannabis Project and they want to set up a call with me because I think there's an interesting aspect again around conditioning the environment in which the cannabis is packaged.

1:33:05Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd it's really important because I think again, like if you're going to mass produce and you're just going to put a bunch of stuff in a warehouse and it's just going to, inventory like you know many weeks before it gets i mean that's not the way cheese works right and certainly i mean again i don't see where you know things always come unraveled is that states have different rules around compliancy and packaging and you know cannabis companies are trying to make efforts to you know reduce packaging you know footprint you know and Thank you for joining us.

1:34:07SpeakerOne thing I think that struggle I've been through is, is, you know, the thing you're, you're kind of the striking a chord with me is like, no one, we didn't really talk about headroom and how much space is locked in. Yeah. Like these are all things we learned that we're like, oh my God, over time, my cannabis in a room, in a jar with lots of headroom goes bad faster.

1:34:26SpeakerAnd you know, this is all, you know, no one was there to tell us that this is happening. Right. So, you know, I'm still learning and going into shots.

1:34:36Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, Marcus? Sam was there and Sam was there to tell us all about it, but none of us were listening.

1:34:43SpeakerYeah, totally.

1:34:44Dr Mark ScialdoneWe were a whole bunch of people listening.

1:34:46SpeakerI guess what I'm trying to get across is like, you know, I had to learn through trial and error all this stuff. And I think you're highlighting is still things that today predominantly producers are not thinking about, but the packaging companies are and they're trying to sell it on producers. And I think that ideology is a little backwards where We're really the ones that are supposed to be saying to these people that are providing these solutions to us that, hey, we need less headroom.

1:35:12SpeakerWe need better seals. We need better shelf life. And let's start that narrative and that conversation with them so they can provide the solutions for us, because I think that's the biggest hurdle today that I find is All of these jars are great, but this has too much headroom too. Colin, exactly. Doesn't really make sense. One of those things. Oh, sorry. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead, man.

1:35:35SpeakerAddison, I want to hear it. Go for it, buddy. I mean, the issue with cannabis storage Is even that steeple when we started doing the nitrogen infusion packaging for farmers to save their cannabis. The problem with that is as soon as you take the cannabis out of nitrogen, it degradates twice as fast, starts to break down immediately quick. So what we need to look at is that and understand is that cannabis is a perishable product no matter how you cut it.

1:36:00SpeakerThe only way to slow that process is to turn it into water hash. And then take that water hash and store it for a longer period of time, convert that back in and bring it in different ways, bring those compounds in different ways back into the subject of matter, what you're trying to do, whether it's an edible or anything else. And it's just that, you know, I hear everyone talking about like, you know, mass production or our industry and what's happening.

1:36:24SpeakerName another industry where this doesn't apply. It applies in every single industry. So you can learn from those industries. Like the issue is that we don't have interstate commerce. That's the biggest issue. So no big massive player can run the whole fucking game yet. So when everyone gets worried about some big massive player, it's not going to happen yet. You don't have interstate commerce. It has to be split up.

1:36:45SpeakerWe all know to run a company in multiple states is a motherfucker. There's no question about it on the body, on the mind, on the soul. It's tough work. So you have to decentralize yourself in order to do that. Some guys are doing a great job of it right now. They're able to present a product in different areas that are standardized as much as possible. But packaging is a huge issue.

1:37:07SpeakerAnd I think that what you're talking about, Colin, I'm so stoked. I just saw the other day these new pop top caps that go on the concentrate and they snap the top and it sucks all the air out of it and it seals it. So then when you open it, the answer is no air. The answer is to remove oxygen and not to add nitrogen. You know, and it's and it's a perishable product.

1:37:29SpeakerSo I think the other thing, too, is I agree with the small farmer and the fact that the small farmers product, if a small farmers product is being pushed out, in my opinion, typically there's not the it doesn't have the correct marketing and it doesn't have the correct push behind it because we all know that's typically a better product. But if it's not marketed correctly and it's not produced, a big company reached out to me.

1:37:51SpeakerThey're doing this big, a big panel on this new hash thing they're doing. And they had all these, all these different panels about all this stuff and nothing about branding and marketing. And I was like, what a mistake. You know, like we brand and market in this industry by looking over at the other guy and going, oh, Myron jars, got that big label. Okay. I'm gonna put a big label on.

1:38:10SpeakerOh, and fucking fruit colors and sticker. Okay. Like, you know, that's not marketing. Like the guy that comes outside of the box. And does something that catches everyone's attention that also has an amazing product inside of it that may have a nod towards you know nature and the environment and that's who's gonna pull ahead and push ahead and you know and it's like but it's it's really the the I think to answer the question when it comes down to cannabis itself, it all needs to be turned into hash.

1:38:39SpeakerIt could be enjoyed as flour for a short period of time. That's awesome. That's for like for the right now. You can't store cannabis for a long period of time. I've never seen anybody successfully pull it off. I've never seen it be like me not have to be honest to them to be like, this sucks. No, it's not as fresh as it was. It's not as good as it was.

1:38:59SpeakerWe all know that everything has a point of perfection in the curing process when you're like, oh, fuck. Oh, man. Yeah, we're here. But that's a period in time. It's a moment in time. And you got to keep doing what you do. And you got to keep networking and build a great community to have that feeling all the time. So the community part's a huge part. You know, when it comes to packaging, we're here.

1:39:22SpeakerLike I'm starting to see new packaging stuff, you know, alchemy jars, different shit that just gets an understanding of what's there. Like my alchemy jars, I've tested them. I've done like, I put like four grams in an alchemy jar. I'll put 12 grams in an alchemy jar. I'll put 22 grams in an alchemy jar. And I let those sit and I hit out of them and I open and close them.

1:39:45SpeakerThere's no difference in the space. How it preserves that product is incredible. It just does such a great job. This thing was full. When I saw you last, dude, this thing was full and you could see it's still beautiful in the very bottom. I've smoked the whole jar myself, you know? Yep. I couldn't agree more. I wanted to I wanted to bring this up in the conversation.

1:40:06SpeakerI think it's a good a good time. But like the last few weeks, my head was was kind of going back in time to when we first started making rosin and I was selling full melt hash in the medical market up here. And we were it was also the time when we were transitioning to fresh frozen. And so there was a period where I would have a lot of dried material.

1:40:28SpeakerAnd we would wash it with water and we'd sell part of it as hash, as full melt hash. And then we'd squish it, the other stuff that wouldn't melt, and put it out as rosin. And so the rosin was a byproduct there for a while. Um, and I, I was just kind of thinking back through the cultivars I was using and remembering that, that the ATF in particular was a good, a good in the cherry pie was a good thing that stuck out of my mind when we dried the flower and even almost over dried it, did a long, a long dry on it and then washed it.

1:40:59SpeakerWe were able to pull out better yields and a better quality product with certain cultivars. Aaron Wiggins, CFO Alphabet and Google, CFO Alphabet and Google, CFO Alphabet and Google,

1:41:23SpeakerI think it was like episode 65 or something in Hash Church. I had to go back quite a ways and listen through a number of Hash Church's old ones around that time because I remembered what I was doing and what I was putting out and I could look back in my Instagram and get a timestamp and Sam and fucking Cuban talking about dry sift, about taking it for a full 90 day dry.

1:41:44SpeakerAll this just clicked into my head and I was like, dude, we need to start fucking around with like We're dialing in which variety we fresh freeze, which variety we dry, then wash or dry sift, you know? And so kind of part of the answer to your question, Julie, is we're still fucking riding trends a bit ourselves. We're still a little bit confused ourselves. We're getting so much better.

1:42:08SpeakerAnd the more online and the more community and the more events, it's like, We're learning rapidly, but there's still a lot to, you know, we could go back, like, you know, Sam knew it all along. Could we ever really, you know, that should be the t-shirt. Sam always, Sam always said to us. Sam knew all along. Yeah. Like, hash makers are the archaeologists of the cannabis industry.

1:42:29SpeakerThey are the guys who... They are. Dude, I'm watching, sorry, one more thing I was going to say. I was watching these guys in Balochistan in Afghanistan. Cut the whole plant, hang it up just inside a clay building, let the whole thing dry through the winter, similar to tobacco where it has a bit of fluctuation, but it's staying within a bandwidth. And then they shake off the dry heads and they're, you know, the pictures I see, their hash game is better than ours when it comes to doing dry resin, you know.

1:43:01SpeakerAnyways, I'll shut up and let you go, Addison. Well, they're all different flavors. Like, I think what people should do, if I owned a Type 6 here in California, I already thought of it. I would take a strain in, I would run it every fucking way you could. Steve Sorenson, MD, I'd run it BHL, I'd run it solventless, I'd run it, or a type seven, I'd run it every single way.

1:43:18SpeakerI'd dry it, I'd run it into, you know, use the Spanish methods of like drying and pressing and the old, old techniques and do all that stuff, and then have it all on front. And then you go, okay, well, this one's going to be great in the proxy, without water, as a dry press, this one's going to be great. Oh, you know what, this strain, So, you know, it expresses itself most, you know, the best as a dried, finished product, it seems.

1:43:43SpeakerAnd it'd be great to have all of those different things out there and then have a cup where people get to come and try those things and give their opinion. I mean, I pat Dougie on the back for constantly being active in our community and doing all this stuff as a marketer, you know, Dougie from Hitman. But him to come out and be like, oh, a blind test.

1:44:02SpeakerYou know, have an event that's a blind test where people come to it and you, you, the consumer sits down with a blindfold on and you're then being challenged to tell whether it was organic, indoor, outdoor, BHO, solventless. It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Who gives a fuck? You just took all the fun out of what we do. For what reason? For ego? So that you can go, ha ha, you don't know what you're talking about.

1:44:26SpeakerLike, no, that's not what this community is about. That's not what fucking all these things are about. It's definitely not what the fucking plant's about. I mean, it should be like, did you get high? Did you like it? High five. What's next? Like, that's what it should be, because that leads to hugs and happiness and loving kindness and community. It's not this division of like, oh, he's got pie on his face because there's Marcus, the king of fucking solvent was hash.

1:44:50SpeakerAnd he thought a BHO was an indoor solvent. It's like, get the fuck out of here, dude. Like, oh, what do you win? Humiliation is your prize? Like, what the fuck is this? Like, you know, that's division. I think, you know, our entire industry and community, I love the hash component of it. I've kind of been pulled towards this, I think, like a massive planet because it is, I feel like, best heads and the people that are really like, and not to say that the other people aren't great.

1:45:19SpeakerIt's just, we're not about marketing anything but the product and letting the product speak for itself. And And if the product's in a Mylar fucking bag, would the hash industry continue to allow it to happen? Fuck no. We'd say that's trash. We don't want that as part of what we're going to support. The flower industry can because it's real estate to be marketed. It's that Mylar bag that can be marketed.

1:45:40SpeakerBut like you say, Colin, it fucks up the product. It's too much headspace. There's too much stuff in there. Go ahead. To that headspace aspect and to purging and to the You know, pillow packs like they do for chips and stuff. Interesting side note, my uncle actually is the patent holder for that process. He actually invented that way back in the day for veg and stuff like that.

1:46:06SpeakerBut what's interesting to consider this is that you can actually store, you know, flour products for very long times in the appropriate environment. So one of the ways you would do that is, like you mentioned, Mylar bags with inert gas packaging. And then at close to freezing or sub-freezing temperatures. And that will dramatically extend your shelf life to the point where you can probably pick it up in five years and not have a precipitous loss of character.

1:46:39SpeakerIt will change a bit, but it won't be terrible, terrible, terrible. I mean, that's one of the ways that you- How quickly will it degrade afterwards? The degradation, it's about the same. You don't see a lot of acceleration. It's really just that the perception of degradation is much higher because you've opened it, it smells fresh, and then you've introduced oxygen and it starts to go. Because the oxidation reactions are very, very quick.

1:47:03SpeakerThat shelf, it falls off that shelf. Yeah, exactly. So in an ideal world, consumers would have the ability to All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

1:47:42SpeakerYou have the ideal gas law being in effect, which is that basically once you have the capacity for volatilization, you will get volatilization into the headspace to where it is equal between the source material and the volume in the headspace. So assuming you have, you know, X grams or X micrograms of your volatiles, Brad Hokanson, If you have 50% headspace, you're going to have 50% of those of those volatiles end up in the headspace and 50% still stay in the plant material.

1:48:15SpeakerThat's really unavoidable. So I think headspace reduction is a huge, huge thing that you need to think about. Brad Hokanson, That said, vacuum packing isn't always the best way to do it either. Brad Harkness, M.D. : Thank you. Brad Harkness, M.D. : Thank you. Brad Harkness, M.D. : Thank you. Brad Harkness, M.D. : Thank you. Brad Harkness, M.D. : Thank you.

1:48:52SpeakerAnd it creates little hard nuggets. And if those, you know, they're moving around a box, you'll shear off some of that mylar, some of the metal foil that's in between the mylar layers, which then allows oxygen to permeate into the product. And so you crack the foil liner in between those layers and it starts to go off. Glass jars don't have that problem. Metal jars don't have that problem.

1:49:13SpeakerSo that's certainly an option to do that. You can backpack in those. Brad Holtzman, CFO Alphabet and Google, Microsoft Office Word Document MSWordDoc Word.Document.8

1:49:38SpeakerThe, one of the things that you run into is also that you have sort of, I'm going to use hops again, you have what's called a storage index. And that is primarily determined by the degradation of alpha acids. So the equivalents like cannabinoids that we're talking about. And depending on the volatile mix and other compounds that are present, that storage index will go up or down. So if you have a lot of compounds that have the potential to have highly reactive degradation products, that is going to lead to a reduced storage index because those are providing the building blocks for the reactions that will degrade or at the very least change the material that's in there.

1:50:24SpeakerAnd so I think there's a lot to be learned from the other industries. Like you said earlier, people, this is the same for cheese, same for salad. It's the same for hops. It's the same for any agricultural product. You have to try to preserve it as long as possible. And you're trying to preserve that character. If it goes in back to the sort of the rant I had earlier about quality versus character.

1:50:47SpeakerIf you have all the quality metrics in place where it's not going to have any aflatoxins, there's no microbial contamination, and it's in as secure an environment as possible, then it's still going to change. And so it's still safe to consume. It's just not going to be as, it's not going to be the same level that it went into the packages.

1:51:13Dr Mark ScialdoneBut it's, you know, this is something we need to- It's all a matter of rate, right, Nick?

1:51:16SpeakerIt's all a matter of rate. If you want great products like cannabis, grow it yourself. If you want the best of the best, then grow it yourself. If you want a consistent product, you need a mass producer to consistently produce it so that you can enjoy it. And then the other thing is, we don't live in a world anymore where you can't go out and get it.

1:51:38SpeakerYou can continuously get the same thing over and over again now because the dispensary is there or the black market's there in a stronger way. So it's not like back in the day when you'd find something, you had to buy as much of it as you could. And then you had to figure out how to fucking store it. And then you break it out on Marcus's birthday.

1:51:53SpeakerAnd then, you know, you don't have to do that anymore because we do have large mass producers that can produce it. And then my brain started wandering back. Remember we were talking about large producer to small producer and kind of pushing out the small producer and it's just going to be big producers. That happens in every industry. And then how do they even out? Well, the small producer, like the artist, will go with a larger distributor and get that product out on a mass scale.

1:52:22SpeakerAnd that's kind of how that works. And it's in every industry and everyone's still protected. You know, I think if everybody just like, you know, lived a healthier life, they wouldn't worry so much in their head about all these other things that could be more easily solved through a healthier lifestyle.

1:52:42SpeakerThank you. Thank you for that. There were so many points I wanted to chime in here because I have so many questions for you and really valuable insights. Thank you. But I wanted to kind of flip it. Have you come across cultivars that bag appeal looks great, loud, smells amazing, you know, lab test shows, you know, high terpene, you know, it's a three percenter with, you know, high cannabinoid content, and then you smoke it?

1:53:15SpeakerAnd the flavor is definitely not in conjunction of what you expect compared to the aroma. And the flavor is like rather sometimes, like the worst for me is when it's bitter, right? When it gets bitter, I'm like, you know, I put it out. So does anyone have anything to say about that? Like when there is a difference in the- I think a lot of that has to do with cure.

1:53:45SpeakerBecause if cannabis is not properly cured, you're still gonna have sugars in the cellular material. And curing is about converting the sugars into starches, which burn clean. Sugars don't burn clean. And I think that is one of the big problems for the consumer. Cannabis that smells a certain way, but when you burn it, it tastes and smells completely different. They're burning sugar. That's all I have. And it takes time to do a proper cure.

1:54:15SpeakerAnd it needs moisture in the cells of the plant material for that chemical reaction to happen. It's a whole art in and of itself. And that's all I have. I'll go back to listening. Thank you. In a pheno hunt, if you're looking at 20 seeds of the same strain, what could happen also is they're doing selection and the right one makes it or the wrong one makes it through.

1:54:38SpeakerAnd it'll be like what you're saying. It could be perfectly cured. It could be perfectly done. It's just that that inhale, exhale flavor or that taste isn't there on that pheno. It's just didn't come through on that one. All right, so we're going to go ahead and get started. We're going to go ahead and get started.

1:55:13SpeakerOr it has all the same characteristics and it does yield insolvent hash. That's the most valuable cut. That's the one that's coveted that Archive owns themselves and they hold on to and only Chris gets to run and all those different things and it makes it viable. But he's right. It's, you know, if it's not cured correctly, then you're not going to get that final taste and flavor and you won't get, you'll see the ash too might be, might be dark.

1:55:37SpeakerIt might not look correct. So it's, Yeah, it's all, it's all part. Well, even through population, you're each plant, each of, you know, is going to require different things, you know, and, and cure is absolutely one of them, you know, and where you require it being a little colder, a little warmer or more humidity or less humidity. I mean, all these things are all attributes to what makes it, you know, viable.

1:56:01SpeakerAnd we try to do this one size fits all, especially at scale. You know, we don't you know, we're still we're just not there in terms of genetics to be able to do those things. How lucky are we, though, that this is such a complex plant with complex, volatile organic compounds? And then we've got our own old factories involved in our own systems that our perceptions and our our sensitivities and our blind spots and all of these things that just create

1:56:34Johnny BI would cut out. Tesla. Come back.

1:56:39SpeakerI don't know. It is that weird. Someone's muting you, that's for sure. I don't know what powers that is, but definitely always want to hear you out. However, I'm just going to fill... Fill the gap here when you can get better reception or something like that. I wanted to talk about that in terms of how the product is grown. Has anyone, especially the growers here, tried different growing mediums but with the same cultivar or the same product so that you see, okay, what yields a different hash or flavor or burn quality experience?

1:57:19Johnny BI'd love to chime in on that one because I've been growing the same strain for the last, what, 18 years of everything. And I've grown basically with different nutrients and done a lot of testing and I've had my own HPLC sitting in the garage and I've done all the testing and everything you guys talk about. So I have, you know, I've been kind of writing about it at the same time.

1:57:39Johnny BAnd I've really been taking, okay, let's really start with this to be honest. Recently, when Mark, we did a, we did a cleaning of some hash and we did some, we did a video there. And I remember during that video, Mark, we were doing that cleaning of the heads with the glove tech. And you're like, look how fresh this weed is. It was hung dry for four months.

1:58:02Johnny BOkay. So no one, people don't do this. So I have four month hang dry and he thought it was still fresh. So understanding and how that cure comes into process and how the grower comes into play because everybody can grow cannabis. I've seen everybody grow some fantastic weed up there. Half the people, 90% of people don't know how to cure their weed and they destroy it in the process.

1:58:19Johnny BThat's what it comes down to is that art is learning how to cure cannabis and how to actually hang dry. We all are going to confirm that hang dry is the way. It's not like you're cutting the shit down, trimming it up, letting it dry on screens or in machines or anything like that. I've hung dry for three weeks, three months, six months. Because the injury stuff like that, I had no choice.

1:58:38Johnny BAnd then with those, it gave me this great way of an education to see how we control the relative humidity in the room and temperature are the key, right? This is 100% the key, guys. This is how you grow. And everybody, this is how you cure your cannabis. In my opinion, this is my hallucination. What I've been understanding through the stickiness comes down to the water activity and that cure.

1:59:01Johnny BSo this has been great for me to understand and see through time. And I start my cures around 80% humidity in the room. People will think that's crazy. Hang dry, sealed room, no fans. They're pretty big rooms. So I got to look at the amount of air that's in that room to the amount of cannabis that's in that room. I haven't really gone into those scientific details and I'd love to work with some people and look at some of those numbers because I think this is going to be a really key thing of understanding really good cannabis for the patients and people getting those standardized therapies and that same consistency of water activity in cannabis.

1:59:35Johnny BAnd this comes down to that relative humidity to the grower and the guy curing it, plain and simple. We've got to cure it properly, we've got to grow it properly, but that cure and then once it passes on to that next level, we've got to hold that water activity in the jar and whatever means you're going to use that with, there's a few products on the market, but you can also keep it at a relative humidity level and keep that in a jar.

1:59:55Johnny BI've had jars for eight, 10 years and they popped in here from 2012 when I was 10 years old, they popped and smelled just fucking amazing. And I knew it was in that jar at that point. So when I look at the relative humidity in the room, around 67%, that gives me my AEW and my cannabis, and I keep it there, 65 sometimes at a 60 degrees, a little bit lower, sometimes 55.

2:00:16Johnny BAnd that holds my AEW to 58 to 59, which is perfect for smoking. Now, percentages and moisture levels, I'm always kind of bad on this, and maybe a few people might be able to help me with those moisture levels when we look at the water activity, Nick, and that moisture levels, because for some reason my I know it's around, what's the most, what's the moisture level at like the 58% in Canada if it's an AW?

2:00:40Johnny BI had it, but I'm just kind of blank on it right now.

2:00:43SpeakerThat's going to be between, hang on a second, I got an image here to see, I think I just tried to post earlier. It's not about this, right? It is, let me see, based on some of the isotherms that are out there, You said between a, what you said, 0.55 or 58%? You're going to be looking at about a 10.2, 10.3% moisture. Right. And then about 62.

2:01:02SpeakerSo 62 is at one.

2:01:03Johnny B62 is going to be closer to 11. So we've got 10.8 and then we've got 11. 10.8.

2:01:08Speaker10.2 to 58 is going to be about 10.2.

2:01:10Johnny BAnd then, you know, 63 is about 11, 11 and a bit.

2:01:24Johnny BSo, so that's something that I mean, kind of, you know, and like, I think a lot of people concur that there's, so there's no more levels at that. No, we're not going to get any contaminants. We're not going to go moldy. We're not going to get any microbes, anything going there. Like that's over the 65%, if I'm correct. That's what I mean. Yeah.

2:01:40Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah.

2:01:42Johnny BYes, please, Mark. Thank you. Does the stock will snap? The stock will snap after three weeks.

2:01:49SpeakerThat's a good shade tree way of doing it. That's how I select. That was the old school, right? I don't have a moisture meter, but yeah, if the stems snap, they're ready to come off the sticks.

2:02:00Johnny BI've cured in so many different ways, guys. I've cured in paper bags. I've cured in jars. I've put them in closets and we've wrapped them and we've curled it. There's so many different ways of curing, of course, growing for the last 30 years. So I've looked at different ways, but we now control our moisture level, relative humidity in the room with that temperature. And I can hold it in that room for six months, eight months.

2:02:21Johnny BAnd I can cure that just perfectly. And those turps are fine. Once they go into the jar, I seal that jar. If I'm opening and closing a jar all the time, I've been humidity packing there, so I have that relative humidity stay at that level. If I'm putting that in a jar that's growing at 67%, I seal it and I'm good to go. So depending on how, and that's a jar, that's an airtight, not a plastic bag, right?

2:02:41Johnny BIt's going to dry out in a Ziploc bag. When we really, I'll put a Ziploc bag, we'll throw a humidity pack in there or something like that. So that's where you got to kind of look at how I've been able to see how, and I've been doing this now for six over six, seven years, really understanding humidity levels with Boveda. They've been kind of working with them.

2:02:59Johnny BAnd over the last six years and me doing it beforehand in jars that I've had a cure for I had my first Medi-Kush when I won in a jar downstairs, right? So that's 2012. So I've got all of these things that I've kind of looked at. Because I'm looking at a standardization for myself so I can consume cannabis for the terpenes that give me that joy, that give me that pain relief.

2:03:20Johnny BThat's what I need. I need the consistency.

2:03:22SpeakerSo I'm being able to look at the terpenes and what's the highest percent at what RH and temperature? What's that sweet, that like triangle?

2:03:34Johnny BYeah, I can go grab all those testings and I can share with you guys about that all. I did it with, I had some testing results and I wish I could, just thinking of my brain, give me a second. There's, the terpenes are quite high and the lady asked me, what were you doing? She goes, one of your terpenes went through the roof. I also do a total darkness for a couple of weeks.

2:03:53Johnny BI control my relative humidity in my room, everything. I turn up my lights and I just look at different ways. I've done that now for the last year and a bit. I'm about four crops now and I'm actually seeing those terpenes higher by doing it at two week light. So I do a full feed, a full water, not feed, sorry, full water, turn the lights up. I have that room completely controlled for humidity and temperature, of course.

2:04:16Johnny BAnd no lights on. And then I go in there just before they dry out completely. I cut them down and hang them. And that's been that next little extra push on those terpenes completely. I've really seen a big change in that. And I hope you guys will make sure that room is controlled. You cannot do that. If you do not have a controlled room, you will cause mold.

2:04:37Johnny BYou will cause problems. Please do not do this unless you're doing this and you know what you're trying to do. And I have no problem. I test things and I'm willing to always fail because that's how you learn 20% of the problem, 80% of the solution. So these are the things that I've been able to find through time and what I've been doing. And that's just my hallucinations of how I've been able to kind of work towards what I need for myself.

2:04:59Johnny BWhat I've done with the same strain, and I've been growing with all different lights, many cushions, but my strain, the same strain for the last over a decade and a bit. And between lights and nutrients, living soils, by far is more flavor. LEDs, of course, I'm using it because I like the far red. I like those deep reds that give me that. So it's organic. You guys all know that, right?

2:05:26Johnny BOrganic's the way to go to get the flavors hang dry. I mean, and add the biology into your soils and goldening soil. Like we've got to grow for the future and we can't do that with bulb and nutrients and stuff like that. And really understanding that curing and using proper light recipes and multiple spectrums and how we can cut down on just this overall and be self-sufficient.

2:05:48Johnny BThis is key importance, and this is why I love doing what I do, and I get the joy from you guys. Thank you for allowing me to share that. John, thanks.

2:05:57SpeakerYou touched on a bunch of things I'm really interested in. One of the ones I think for me, I'll touch on the organic thing in a second, but the light depth the last two weeks, that's interesting because a lot of people are, there's the bro science aspect of it where people are doing it for like, Brad Hines, CFO Alphabet and Google Alphabet and Google Play.

2:06:38SpeakerYeah, I mean, I would love to see any data that you're willing to share because I would just love to see that. Yeah, yeah. I think I put my contact information earlier in the chat here. And then I'll send it to you actually in a second. But the...

2:06:56SpeakerIn terms of organic versus inorganic, one of the things that I have noticed is that there's a lot of confusion between organic and sustainable and a healthy microflora environment. And I think that absolutely having the microflora and the right soil bacteria and the right soil fungi are the most important aspect of what organic farming sort of set out to do. If you use the right balance of nutrients and the right form of nutrients, you can achieve those results with sort of so-called non-organic nutrients.

2:07:44SpeakerAnd it really is more about keeping the soil healthy and not just overloading it with really heavy salts and leading to sort of over-salting and no nutrient imbalance in the soil. So I think that's an important distinction. I think people, I would like people to start experimenting with, you know, perhaps sustainable non-organic nutrients as well and to do tests on that and see if you can achieve the same balance, but just making sure that you have the right nutrients in the right form available to those microbes to then liberate them for the plant at a consistent, sustainable rate.

2:08:22SpeakerAnd I think that would be a really nice experiment to try. I mean, I'd like to speak to that a bit. Like there's a couple of things, you know, I've grown across the spectrum for sure. And I'm definitely a living soil guru. So that, you know, I've self-proclaimed I'm into it. I'm really into it for sustainability reasons. But I feel like there's a there's there's something which we can't scientifically prove, but all of our mouths.

2:08:49SpeakerWe'll verify that as the living soil stuff, hands down, comes out 100% better. It's better for the way it is in your body. It's better for the way it tastes. Even the most hardcore guys running really tight, really nice games will say, man, your shit is better. I know they'll go, but I get better yield or, you know what I mean? They'll have their reasons for why they stick doing their thing, but they'll always say your shit's a little bit better, you know?

2:09:16SpeakerAnd there's, there's a lot of factors. I agree with what you're saying in large part, Nick, that a lot of folks are messing their new game up and they could dial it in and they need to have the ability to have some biology in there. That's a big difference. And some of these new companies will have actually have probiotics that they add in. And those are like a lot better tasting, you know, they're closer, but they're, they don't hit the same homeostasis thing.

2:09:39SpeakerAnd there's also a genetic thing too. And I wonder if Johnny B experienced this. So like when I take in different cuts and I've noticed this for decades, like if I take in a cut, you know, let's say from a guy who's been running synthetics for years, it'll take me two, three, four cycles with growing that plant. And until that plant knows how to use those organic nutrients.

2:10:02SpeakerAnd it's literally in the cell walls of the plant. Like it takes time for the plant to get the right microbes inside the cell walls to where it can really metabolize and fucking crank. And that's in the seed and through the clone. It can take a little bit on some lines. That being said, I have a line in ATF that has never, and I've had this thing for like 15 years, it has never shown me the best, it shows the best quality when growing in synthetics under HPS.

2:10:31SpeakerI've had it for 10 years, I've fucked with an LED, HPS, Living Soils, Living Soils, you know, I've done all the things and this one just loves to have a drain to waste, HPS, fucking hot game. You know what I mean? So there's a genetic component, there's a number of things going on there, but I think everyone in the room, most people, I won't speak for them, agree that there's something in the mouth that we can't scientifically say and quantify that living soil done proper, cured proper, is hands down better.

2:11:02SpeakerI would say we can't scientifically prove it yet.

2:11:06SpeakerThe reason I'm not doing a lot of the work that I'm trying to do is not to remove the artistry or to do that. It's more just to quantify whatever we can Brad Harkness, CFO Alphabet and Google

2:11:36SpeakerAaron Wojcicki, M.D. : Organic soups basically and I don't mean organic in terms of the TM organic farming system, I mean just like organic compounds. Aaron Wojcicki, M.D. : And as those degrade they'll release different micronutrients consistently over time and so. I think that the micronutrients and feeding the soil is absolutely the best way you can do things. And that's the way that agriculture should be moving and is moving, thankfully, finally.

2:12:02SpeakerAnd it's feed the soil and you get better plants out of it. The way you feed the soil is up to you. And you will see differences depending on the intensivity of your fertilization. And even what forms those come in. But sort of what I'm saying is that the higher the biodiversity, the higher the complexity of the system, the more resilient it is and the more, I guess, the more resilient it is to change and to shifts.

2:12:30SpeakerIt has a better buffering capacity, if you will, not necessarily from a chemical perspective, but sometimes, but more from a resistance to change. And that's healthy. Brad Hokanson, There's a really, I mean, there's a seminal paper in sort of sensory agriculture that came out in the early 2000s, looking at Sauvignon grapes in the Marlborough Valley of New Zealand. And what they found is that the absolute best aromatics came from We've got a couple more questions here.

2:13:01SpeakerWe've got a couple more questions here. We've got a couple more questions here. We've got a couple more questions here.

2:13:27SpeakerAll right. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in about a minute or so. So we're going to get started in about a minute or so. So we're going to get started in about a minute or so.

2:13:56SpeakerThe better the product is going to be and the safer it is for the grower to maintain that system. I 100% agree. I feel like we could also agree that like, you know, the more times a thing is eaten, you know what I mean? Like if I throw an alfalfa meal down on the top soil, let it be consumed by the microbes versus if I feed it to my goat and then take that goat poop and process it through a compost, you know, the more times you can get things eaten in chat and eaten in chat, you create diversity and achieve that is one aspect.

2:14:26SpeakerYou know, I agree totally with what you're saying. And I mean, and sort of along those lines, like if you continuously feed the same regimen, All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

2:15:01SpeakerSorry, I can't hear you. Addison. Addison. Thanks, man. Good stuff. Addison was saying that consistency is key. Now, you could go the opposite direction and feed looking at the micronutrients and the macronutrients and feed multiple different sources of those things continuously. So we've got a lot of work to do to try to promote an even larger biodiversity and a flexibility in nutrient uptake and nutrient consumption for that system.

2:15:32SpeakerAnd I think there's probably some it'd be interesting to compare results from both of those approaches. I'd like to jump in here for a second. I'm loving this conversation. The first part I wanted to talk about was the idea of creating your own inputs. There's a bunch of reasons that I think that's a really good idea. But the idea of biodiversity in your garden, particularly if you're able to work outdoors or in living soil or even in greenhouses, is I would point to the whole field of study called Korean natural farming, JDAM, indigenous microorganisms, et cetera, which is just a way of culturing the organizms that are flourishing in the soil you have, not in your garden, but around your garden.

2:16:20SpeakerTo your point, Nick, about seeing better results from grapes near the edge of a vineyard as versus in the middle of it, because the microorganisms And I think that one of the memories I have, I believe it was on Hash Church a while back, we talked about terpenes and someone was here presenting the idea that

2:16:52SpeakerWhile genetics have something to play in the genetic expression, in the expression of terpenes in cannabis, that the microorganisms that are in the root zone as well as on the leaf surfaces and within the plant itself also trigger terpene response from the plant. And I tend to think of it that the cannabis plant, at least part of why it's creating these terpenes, is for its own needs.

2:17:19SpeakerWe enjoy them, but they are at least partially about a defense mechanism to discourage things that eat plants from eating the leaves of this plant. But there's also, of course, the terpenes and their effects on our body and why we cultivate them.

2:17:36Dr Mark ScialdoneSo I'll stop there. Go ahead. I was just going to say, just as a way to encourage interactions with pollinators, which us humans are. So the cannabis plant and all plants for that matter and all insects for that matter live in a world called chemical ecology. It's a whole branch of chemistry that describes the chemical language that exists between different organizms, including plants and insects. And what's truly amazing when you look at like The chemicals that insects use to communicate with, they're the same, some of the same molecules that are in plants.

2:18:27Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so some of the same biochemical pathways and some of the same signals that are responsible for those molecules and plants are also in insects. I'll just end by saying this, you know, when we worked on this project with Katmint, we had not realized the importance that Katmint has in It is a good insect repellent, but it's a lacewing attractant, right? And lacewings are the good ones.

2:18:58SpeakerWell, that's a huge, important point because it's not only just for pollinators, but it's also for predators. And so what will happen?

2:19:09Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's this whole communication that's happening there. And I think humans, right, Wade? We're involved in that communication because It's like there's insects, there's plants, there's people, right? Then there's the earth. But I think just to go back to the chemical communication again, that's really cool is that when you look at certain varieties and susceptibility to either insect or microbial attack, whether it's fungal or by microbes or whatever, there is a chemical basis for Certain varieties that are resistant.

2:19:51Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd that all has to do with, again, terpene makeup. I would assume the other chemicals also play a role, but I think the terpene makeup has a big role. And we were talking before, too, about microbial influence, too, on terpenes. You have to admit, too, that, again, the hallmark of microbial degradation is oxidation because that's what microbes want to do. They want to oxidize things when they eat things.

2:20:20Dr Mark ScialdoneSo sometimes like when you look at El Sole's papers and he identifies all of these new cannabinoids, they're basically microbial degradation products of moldy weed down at Ole Miss, right? It's basically what it comes down to. So yeah, so in its pristine form, yes, cannabinoids and terpenes in general are metastable compounds. So they have to be preserved. And it's interesting, Addison, what you're saying about this notion of, well, you can't keep it as flowers, so make it into hash.

2:20:57Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd we need to like have that as like hash churches campaign here on the internet. Let's turn all of this stale weed into hash. Let's do it on like a worldwide basis. Have this hash.

2:21:12SpeakerYou can't take money to the grave with you, but you can take hash. You guys, I want to be buried in a hash casket. I have to write that into my into my will. It's like what you were saying earlier is the truth. Like, you know, hash once you make it into that form. And I know Marcus, you know, he he's been a big proponent of this for a really long time.

2:21:35SpeakerYou know, the more hash you make is, you know, you can you can freeze it. You can keep it. You can pull it out of the freezer. You can use it at any point in time. And it has longevity. You know, and resin done well with, you know, the right amount of resin to particulate ratios can can last a very long time. Ash is like Walt Disney's head.

2:22:02SpeakerYou know, if you freeze it, keep that shit forever, man. Yeah, no doubt. Preservation is real for sure. And that's why the supply chain conversation that Nick brought up is so very, very, very important. I think that lots of critics of what's going on in the legal market in Canada, I get it. There's some companies Many companies growing booth and there's companies not processing correctly, but there are also great people who are from the legacy market growing really nice product.

2:22:37SpeakerAnd there are people processing really nice product. But if you, you know, if like I kept my hash at minus 20 degrees the entire time I had it, then I sent it out in jars and it went to the warehouse in the OCS and it sat for three days in the summer at like a hundred degrees Fahrenheit in their warehouse. And, you know, as Addison was saying, like when you remove the nitrogen, oxygen and replace with nitrogen, it degrades very, very quickly.

2:23:05SpeakerWell, if you keep hash stored for, you know, six months plus at minus 20 degrees Celsius, and then you go to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, it literally cooks the hash. I mean, the hash was like reddish black. It was from being a white powder. It just turned into this like Smeared red, black powder, black gum. And man, it's like we took a lot of hits from people going, oh, they're selling bunk and it's not that good.

2:23:33SpeakerAnd there really is something to be said for a good product can be destroyed with a bad supply chain.

2:23:43SpeakerIt's packaging too. Every component is so important and that's why I think as we progress like every other industry has that has less barriers, you will solve these problems and great companies will come forward and introduce these products and new pioneers will be made. It's the exciting part about what's next in what we do because everything's come so far but I mean, it's, it's even with, uh, with legends, like for example, every single entry that comes into legends goes immediately into a chest freezer and it stays in that chest freezer until it gets, you know, as we make the kits for the judges, those are all in free.

2:24:27SpeakerIt's like everything's protected. And the reason is, is because it's our job to give it to the person who comes up to the hash bar and the same format that it was turned in as an entry. You know, it's very important because now we're talking about solventless hash. It could be melt. It could be dry sift. It could be rosin. And we just want to make sure that it's that that maker is getting, we're presenting that maker.

2:24:49SpeakerWe're representing them at that moment that we hand that over to them, you know, and I expect there to be a lot of people with coolers and we're going to be giving out ice packs for people and replenishing ice packs while we're there because it is solventless and people want to protect it. And, you know, you want that. You know, you don't bring it all with you, but now you're getting it.

2:25:08SpeakerSo we want to make sure that it's protected. And we even thought about like going to Pelican or like, not Pelican, but go into like one of the bigger, cooler companies and being like, hey, do you want to be a sponsor? You know, we have this product that has to stay cold. And I don't think we're ready for that kind of stuff yet. But, you know, all this great work all the way through the process at so many different points can break down and change And destroy the art, you know, destroy the work that somebody did because of supply chain.

2:25:37SpeakerYou know, supply chain isn't just the supply of the material that's being used. It's also that material getting itself to the market and getting out there to the consumer. And it's, it's, it's everything. It really is. Like if people are bored in cannabis right now and you want to find a new direction, supply chain is a very interesting one and it pays pretty well. It's actually like a nice place to be.

2:25:56SpeakerThere's not as much I'm probably going to regret saying this but it's not there's not as much you know competition and craziness in that space because everyone's focused on being the fucking the the rock star or you know the other guy that's doing the other thing so but it is important and and I've seen it many times like I'm sure Marcus people were getting that hash and being like I always knew bubble man was full of shit like this is trash you know they they want to quickly jump at you and talk some shit or something too with the way culture is now so That's what it looked like.

2:26:27SpeakerThat's what it looked like when it left, when it left my facility.

2:26:31Dr Mark ScialdoneOkay.

2:26:32SpeakerAnd now I'll show you what it looks like now after it sat in at the OCF for three days in the jar. So now this was taken with a macro. So if I showed it to you out, not in the macro, you can still see the quality is there. I'm not really mad. But I'm telling you. I mean, it's out. I'll show you what it looked like without, well, a lot of volatile organic compounds.

2:27:00SpeakerYes, yes, exactly. A ton of VOCs are gone. Well, Addison, like we were saying earlier, what we need is a farm to face supply chain control. And to your thing for Legends, do you offer advice for the supplier, for the growers who are submitting for judging and stuff? Do you say actually... This is how we want you to pack it to show off your stuff the best.

2:27:31SpeakerDo you give them a standard so everybody's getting judged equally? Well, we explain to them that it's important to us that we're putting their product the way they present it to us exactly to whoever's coming up to that hash bar to try it. So, you know, to every attendee. So it's really, you know, we have that conversation with them about, hey, We've got a lot of people that are like, you know, here's the dates.

2:27:54SpeakerHere's, you know, it's called weights and dates. And it's like, this is the weights of everything. Here's all the dates, important dates. Here's all the other information. And that's a big part of it is like, you know, what are you turning in? Are you doing one or two entries? What are these entries? You know, because it could be rosin. It's melt or dry sift or rosin. So there's three different categories that are all judged separately and there'll be, you know, awards for each one in each category.

2:28:19SpeakerSo it's all completely split up. So we do have the conversation with them. Hey, oh, you're entering a melt. Great. You know, let's talk about how, you know, that's coming in or how we're getting that. And here's the dates that it has to be here. So, you know, because they're also, there's a jar sponsor, Calix Containers sponsors all the jars because we feel like that jar is the most, it's the best jar.

2:28:41SpeakerI mean, we have melt from since that jar was first introduced to the market that we put into those jars and had, We're all in this together. We're all in this together.

2:29:09SpeakerFrom the jar to the way it's treated to how they give it to us, that it's presented exactly that way to whoever's going to look at the bottom of the jar, see the sticker. That's the other thing. Legends isn't blind. Each company puts their logo and their strain name and possibly the breeder and possibly the farmer on the bottom of that jar. So every single one that you look at, oh, that's what it looked like afterward.

2:29:35SpeakerIs that what that is, Mark? This, by the way, is 14-year-old Master Kush bubble hash. Everyone's wondering why it's so dark. Sorry that it's not the blonde, blonde, blonde, but this is a perfect example of hash that the volatile organic compounds have changed completely. They're the most different. This stuff tastes like perfume. It's so strong. I don't even know how because it's just been in this jar.

2:30:01SpeakerIt was out on my table for years, but it sealed itself in a way where those compounds somehow Transformed and preserved without a freezer. I have not seen that happen many times personally, but it is just as you were talking, I thought I would show a few things and that particular hash is extremely special. So I wanted to mention too, you know, we're having this conversation and we're wondering what can we do, you know, to sort of bring this to the people.

2:30:30SpeakerJulie's like, how do we get these people? Well, we have events. You know, we have events and that's what the Legends of Hash event is all about in down in Los Angeles. That's what Julie's Collectors Cup, which we'll talk about in a little bit that's happening up here in Canada. You know, when you have something like Legends and you're inviting the best growers, you know, we were asked when we were interviewed the other day, like, oh, what's the equality?

2:30:53SpeakerLike, what's the equality outcome? Like, how are you guys making it like equal for all? And we're like, oh, oh, it's not. We're completely prejudiced. We don't care what the people look like, but we're prejudiced about what the hash looks and smells like. That's what this event is. It's not an equality event. It's an event to make sure whoever you are, whatever walk of life you come from, that you bring what you think is going to be that great thing to the table.

2:31:18SpeakerAnd that's that sort of community of hashish aficionados getting together and why the growers are so important. And hey, You know what? Put your money where your mouth is. We don't have to argue about, you know, organic regenerative is better than salt. Although I think a lot of us feel that way. But at the same time, Nick had me really thinking, I appreciate his scientific mind because he's certainly not saying salts are better.

2:31:41SpeakerHe's just saying, Is there a way that we can, like, it's almost like a conversation about medicine and you've got your Western medicine and you've got your Eastern medicine. Well, don't we know that the best version is both of those together? It's always, we're always dividing. Not that I'm saying people that are organic and regenerative farmers need to be pumping salt. That's not what I'm saying. Try not to hear that.

2:32:01SpeakerI'm just saying that the possibility that there's value on both sides and understanding feeding your soil, what it needs, Can be learned from both sides. And if it can bring you to a place that pulls those two sides together, it's very hard for a bird to fly with one wing. So when we have both wings of that bird, we get what we call, you know, that just beautiful flowing state.

2:32:26SpeakerThose are just a few things I wanted to say. I couldn't agree more. I mean, that's that's what I said to do with the region conference, you know, and I felt like we made a little dent in that, you know, that all compost is not equal and that by no means is compost equal and not all microbes are equal. Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:33:09SpeakerI think I didn't mean to come off so hot, Nick, earlier. I just kind of can be a little hot Italian, but I do. You came across passionate, not hot at all. Loving, like, listen, I will defend my own. I will not hear this. I am into this shit. It's cold in Washington already, so it's fine.

2:33:29Johnny BOh, yes. Okay, guys, I want to share something with you guys. I met this gentleman, Gary, at this event I was at, and this guy's so into what we're talking about, and I want to play this for you guys.

2:33:42Johnny BCan you hear him? Can you hear us? No? Nope. Okay, I'm going to share this with you guys personally then, okay? So what's going to happen is I'm going to send this off to Josh and Nick, and this guy here is all about what we're talking about on a mask. And this was such an awesome conversation. I just want to be able to share this with you guys.

2:34:00Johnny BSo when I get a chance, I'm going to have a meeting with this gentleman. He's exactly what we're talking about on a massive thing. There's some new creations that they came up with. I filmed him talking about what you're talking about, but I will share it with you guys and somehow share it with the group here someday.

2:34:16SpeakerPost it on Hash Church, man, in the forum.

2:34:19Johnny BThere you go. I'll post it on Hash Church in the forum. Gary will love this. He's just an amazing individual. I know Wade, you and him would probably be like best friends, honestly. On that farming end and about regenerative for the soils and the biology. He wants to do things on the rainforest, on the edge as they're coming into it. He's doing some pretty amazing things on an international level.

2:34:39Johnny BAnd this is just a conversation for you like-minded individuals to work with a gentleman like this. So thank you for allowing me to share that. And I will continue on with the talking about fleas. I just thought was excited that we were in that. Yeah, you guys are awesome.

2:34:55SpeakerSo, hey, I got to jump off in about 30 minutes, Marcus, but if you wanted to talk about Legends or if there was questions or anything else about this year, I'd love to be able to. Yeah, let's, you know what, let's, I want to get back to this conversation for sure, but we got a little bit of time and Legends is pretty important. So let's, let's talk about that for a little bit.

2:35:17SpeakerI want to make time to talk about Julie's and the Canada Reps Collectors Cup as well. It's happening here in Canada in three cities. But let's start off with legends and, you know, just a little bit of information for everyone. I, you know, mostly what everyone asks is how they can get a ticket. That's usually where it starts. And so maybe you can let the answer out.

2:35:39SpeakerYeah, that's the that's the biggest question. The answer to it is that I think as like as organizers and producers of it, we look at that as as the hardest decision to make is who could actually be on that list and who can come that year from the maker all the way into the attendees that get to come. We were able to alleviate that issue a little bit this year by introducing all the judging and giving the judges essentially 21 hours to judge.

2:36:07SpeakerAnd the judges are the makers. So it it came down to We had to put a system in place and have that set so that we can move through the steps of not just creating these lists, but then reaching out to these people and confirming them on this list and then collecting payments and then all the same time organizing the sponsors because our job is to not just put on an event, but figure out how to monetize it correctly with the culture and involve it in the culture.

2:36:39SpeakerAnd that means to involve sponsors, but they have to be Thank you for joining us today.

2:36:59SpeakerThen you start moving through the process. What we introduced is we do the lists early. So the list of makers, we get that decided on as early as possible. You know, as the year's kind of maturing, we're already sitting there doing posts and doing stuff to figure out that list and who's going to be involved. We're looking at the winners of other events, other things like that, qualifiers, and then being able to put them on the list.

2:37:25SpeakerSecond is... The guest list or the attendee list and half of the first night dinner list is really the guest of the maker. So you have 40 makers, then those 40 makers get a guest, which puts an 80 person guest list up. We only have 150 people the first night. So we have about 70 people that then are coming in at an attendee, you know, a two day attendee list.

2:37:48SpeakerThe way we build that list is the same way. We start early and we're putting people in there that are You know, it's mainly the owners of some of these sponsors, the biggest sponsors, and, you know, that fit really well with the culture or other, you know, producers, manufacturers that don't enter contests, but they're definitely a big part of the culture from the, you know, product side to the merch side to whatever it might be.

2:38:14SpeakerArtists, other people that just are really part of the culture, but then the second qualifier for that person is, do they consume a lot of hash? Because this is, this isn't just, you know, it's not to say that any event is just, but, you know, this isn't a small event. It's over a hundred thousand dollars in production. There's a lot that goes into it and those sponsors make that possible.

2:38:36SpeakerSo we want to make sure that the experience for every single attendee from the maker all the way down to the, you know, the second day brunch attendee. Chris Brown, Get you know has a really full experience and it's overwhelmingly fulfilling you know the concept this year and same as last year is that it's an open hash bar. Chris Brown, that's not an open DAB bar that's an open hash bar and people don't even can't even wrap their head around the concept, where you go up to the bar and you say hey i'd like to.

2:39:03SpeakerChris Brown, sample from the menu or sample from the entries and it's just a quick. Here you go. Here's the next five or six entries to try. And, you know, those are quarter gram entries, you know, servings, but there's enough to go back and sit down and try stuff and mosey back up to the line and get some more and have that real open feel. Like when I went to Legends, that's how it was.

2:39:22SpeakerWe walked up and there was stuff on the table and I cut a little piece of this and pulled a little piece of that and put it on a paper plate and circled it and, you know, did the whole dance and did that and kind of got to experience the product with the people. You could then sit down next to You know, whoever and say, hey, man, this is awesome.

2:39:39SpeakerAnd that's the same experience that we're trying to create. So the can, the hash is all dispersed that way. The makers get a kit and then the makers have access to a half gram entry size. So it's it's we keep the bar that way. There's there's a lanyard, everything this year because we added judging. We've we have a blockchain that we created with the partnership. That's on, you know, on the web three, have our own blockchain, our own coin.

2:40:06SpeakerThere's a DAO, everything that exists there. And it's all from the hash and glass community. So we use that and created a format so that we can have all of our judging on Web3. It's all transparent. We can publish it after. Everyone can look at it and see who judged and what they judged. And then that way it's a system that we can then, you know, legends, Marcus and myself can turn to anyone else.

2:40:28SpeakerAnd Dave, when we could turn and say, hey, here's our platform, you know, to Emerald Cup or anyone else. You can use this. The person who's using it just goes into their phone, uses a sliding scale, And gets to fine tune the actual judging so it eliminates more possibility of ties and things like that. So we built a system. It's on your phone. It's completely secure. It's 100% publishable.

2:40:51SpeakerIt's very transparent. So that's another part that we've kind of added this year is the judging. And that's why the second day exists. But only the makers will judge and they'll judge one another. That's best way to do it because it eliminates any issue of like, All right, we're going to get started in about a minute.

2:41:31SpeakerBut then the inside has more of an intimate seating, very comfortable, large farm tables. We feel like that's the most sturdy table that we can get and the largest seating space we can have together. There's no ropes. There's no excluded sections that are roped off or anything like that. Everyone's there together. The only specific area for seating is the sponsor seating area. And that's closer to the outside so that those guys are able to get more quickly in and out and enjoy the experience as well.

2:42:02SpeakerWe have the lanyards and the laminates this year again, and we'll qualify the different attendees with those, as well as now your ticket is an NFT. It will be on your phone through a Kepler wallet, and you'll show that when you come in, and then that qualifies who the person is, what they're there for, whether they're going to be a judge. And then also, oh, go ahead.

2:42:31SpeakerOh, I thought someone was saying something. But yeah, that's the whole thing. I would add something, Addison. What you guys are doing is a lot harder than what I did because I did Legends from this purely part place. It came from this pure aficionados place, which I don't doubt we're still coming from that same place. But to monetize it was the thing I was just always too afraid to do.

2:42:56SpeakerAnd when we had our conversation about like, look, like, You can't just keep paying for this out of your pocket, dude. Like this is fucking mental. Like people want to come to this event. They want to enjoy the hash. They want to popularize new strains and flavors. They want to have this experience in the culture. And one of the things you didn't really talk about because you were so, you know, into talking about this future, which is actually pretty incredible.

2:43:17SpeakerThe Kepler wallet and the NFT and the whole way the transparency of the competition works. So you take away that sort of Temptation of like, oh, let's just sell the first, you know, like what people inevitably do when they build something big, right? You have to like preserve it in the early days and the foundation of it to make sure that it doesn't get bastardized, which is a very hard thing.

2:43:37SpeakerAnd I'm sure there's already people who went to the original legends were like, oh, they took sponsorships and you know, you're allowing cameras. It's just not the same anymore. No, it's not the same anymore, but it is same, same, but different. If you've ever been to Thailand, it's still going to have It's stole of legends, but we're going to allow more people to be involved. And we're going to, it's just like the same thing.

2:43:57SpeakerAnd people always say, oh, it's selling out. Well, it's the, it's the, at one point in time, you have to monetize it and get it. Do you want to just have legends with 40 people every year? Or do you want to do legends where. Maybe some thousands of people can experience it. Do you want to make it so you know you're growing weed for like the 10 people in your neighborhood or do you want to make it so you could touch people on the other side of the country to taste your flavors as well?

2:44:21SpeakerSo this is kind of the difficulty as we get older. We come from the roots where all these activists and we're fighting and fighting and fighting and then suddenly one day you realize oh my gosh I'm running a business and it's incorporated and there's I've got a You know, I've got to do all of these different things to preserve it. It's an interesting kind of situation. But I feel that Legends is in good hands with you guys and with myself as well.

2:44:45SpeakerAnd I'm just excited that, you know, recently, Bubble Coal from Instagram hit me up and started sending me pictures from Afghanistan.

2:44:54Dr Mark ScialdoneAm I frozen?

2:44:57SpeakerNo, you're good. Okay. And he said, I've been writing all these articles about preserving the culture in Afghanistan, but the Taliban is searching for me and I had to leave the country. And I thought, whoa, so this is another part of legends, the roots. So I say, well, can we publish some of your stories? Can we make some placards for Legends of Hash with your words? Can we use some of your pictures?

2:45:20SpeakerAnd he's just like, yes, of course. Like, yes, I want that. The Circle of Hashish that I sent Addison the other day in Afghanistan. He sent me this photo just to share it really quick. And I'm hoping on getting some of these photographs. You know, this is the Circle of Hashish, Babako, like taken last year in Afghanistan, where they gather and join and they smoke all this hash inside this little chamber.

2:45:48SpeakerAnd so I love the idea that Here's this guy, he's got Instagram, but he's looking for a place to preserve these stories and get these photos seen by a group of people that actually have an appreciation for hashish. And here it is going to be legends, legends of hash. Like the event is more than just some event. It's also the preservation of our culture and the cultures of hashish.

2:46:13SpeakerAnd we can't, you know, it's not about picking one or the other. It's about preserving them all in the most authentic way that we can. While continually continuing to grow that culture in the world we live in today and honoring and praising the genetics and the growers who spend their time and spend months and months of variables to produce these incredible flavors for the hash makers to then come along and process with some utmost care and love and gentleness to bring to an event.

2:46:44SpeakerI mean, a hash bar that you can walk up to from the menu and just I'll give me a quarter gram of that and a quarter gram of this and give me two quarter grams of that. Like that is, that is something I want to see more of. So if you had anything else to say, Addison, feel free to say it, but I've said my piece. Well, you can, you can see more of it.

2:47:00SpeakerI have a ticket for you if you want to come down, of course. So that would be awesome to have. I mean, I know, you know, can maybe like put a, just cut a mustache or something. I think we can get you down, buddy. I think we can do it. I got a big car. Hey, Addison, on the legends, and Marcus, thank you for that perspective. That's great.

2:47:22SpeakerA couple things on the legends. Are you guys anonymizing the samples for judges by using codes? No. Okay. I'll just ask those as a question. And then secondly, and more importantly, how does one get a judging spot if they're not a maker or should I just start making? So there's five. So whatever, I think we're never going to go above 40. I think 40 is like a great way to have the room.

2:47:49SpeakerWe may go less, definitely not more. So I think it's, you know, that's a good number. So because it's a good number, because it's... It sort of hits there. We want to make that an odd number. So we add five judges that we consider respected by the 40 makers. Guys that really know their shit, that are kind of what you're talking about, like not necessarily the maker, but maybe Scott Deppie, you know, and not necessarily the maker, but maybe JP Toro and, you know, a lot of comedy.

2:48:19SpeakerGuys that smoke a lot of hash and have smoked hash and know the culture and know all the makers and know everybody and can kind of sit in that room and, again, 60 entries in 21 hours and being able to give your full opinion on those 60, however that may be, whatever process you use. But I look at it as familiarity. Like all of the people that are judging are incredibly familiar with the entire process.

2:48:46SpeakerThey dab, you know, they're dabbing three and a half grams a day, three grams a day, two grams a day on the daily. That's just part of what they're putting into themselves and how much exposure they have to hash. And that's kind of why that maker's list, that judge list is so small that you have to have that exposure in order to be able to do that.

2:49:05SpeakerSo in order to pull it off, and what's crazy about this is I've seen this multiple times before, when it's honestly done and you look at the results, it's across the board. Chris Brown, You can see it sort of uniformly if you pick the right judges, you can see it uniformly in those judges. Chris Brown, Where they're all you know there's someone may bring something from left field here and there, but you can tell that nothing's fixed and you're like okay look at these.

2:49:30SpeakerChris Brown, Oh shit look at the judging it actually is favoring and a favoring and not favoring the entries that came in, you can see that in a lot of it. Chris Brown, And that means that you pick the right kind of judges and you had that and there's you know there's. 18 months of thought that goes into and then the returning and kind of putting together the process from what we did last year.

2:49:51SpeakerWe took feedback from all of the makers that came last year. And then we said, okay, can we implement these things and still keep it in line with culture while we monetize it, while we, you know, continue to give thanks back to and telling the story of hashish and the history of it? You know, how do we do that? And, you know, it's even the way we put the tickets out.

2:50:13SpeakerYou know, the second day, the brunch has 75 tickets that can go out for that day. Well, that gives us an opportunity now to bring in makers that we weren't able to get on the list, to bring in glass shop owners that really help push the culture by selling the glass and putting that stuff out and consuming a lot of hash. Like every single person that's there consumes a lot of hash.

2:50:33SpeakerThere's no question about that. All 250 people are hand selected. You know, we go through and look at every single person. We're either putting their name on the list to start or we're getting their name and then reviewing it and kind of vetting it and putting it in. So it's like Marcus says, it's a sifting through the heads of all these people and then putting together that perfect 90-120 that's just kind of, oh, fuck, you know?

2:51:00SpeakerAnd that's when we're putting it together, our whole, you know, like OKR, like, Outcomes and key results. What we're really looking for is for that person to stand there in the room for any person in the room to walk in and be standing at any point and look around and just and take it in and be like, you got to be fucking kidding me. Like, how the fuck is this even possible now?

2:51:21SpeakerLike, you know, from the place that they get to sit to the entire design of the motif that's there, it's all Moroccan. All, you know, flowing curtains and pillows and floor seating, all these different things and lamps and lighting and everything is all to bring that to life in this large space, indoor and outdoor. Like the outdoor tents have rugs and other stuff laid down and seating.

2:51:46SpeakerSo it's really, you know, very, very solid experience. And the food, you know, the food the first night is all Lebanese meal. Aaron Wiggins, All right. Aaron Wiggins, All right. Aaron Wiggins, All right.

2:52:16SpeakerSo when you get your latte, they can do some different ones, which is pretty cool. So we'll have that all the way into bakery, you know, all the pastries and the bakery stuff that's there for brunch. And then for the first time, we'll have a legends award ceremony. And for the first time, we'll actually have media. So we've invited Bearded Brothers Media to do all of our online media stuff with us, digital stuff that'll be out there.

2:52:44SpeakerAnd then we've invited Scentsy Magazine as our, you know, in print, you know, if that's sort of a thing anymore, really, which is crazy. But we selected those guys. We think they're great. We love working with Ron and those guys and Jennifer who's there. So that's who's covering the media. Then we ourselves have, A pretty extensive media team that's going to capture running up to Legends with the intake all the way into the, you know, the post-production or pre-production of the event, into the event, covering all the stuff that's there very creatively too.

2:53:17SpeakerThey have, you know, creating, like taking light tables, lighting up a space, and then the, and then, you know, being smart enough to showcase the glass rigs that will be in the room that day, and then have them come in and hit off the rigs and do videos in that one space. And then, We do, what is it, macro photography on all of the entries. That happens days before the event.

2:53:40SpeakerAfter everything's turned in, we start that process and get photography for the production, the post-production of the entire event. And it'll all be in, unfortunately, this is how it is now, but everything will be in snips, these produced reels that will have all of the media. And here's some of the stuff from last year, the entry stuff. And we'll use the same photographer this year, Zoom photography that did everything for us last year.

2:54:07SpeakerSo that's, those are some of the great ones. Yeah, Feeling Frosties, Jealousy Cross. So nice. So, yeah, so we'll have capture this year on all the entries. We'll have media there covering stuff. Everyone's allowed to have their phone this year, so there should be a lot more activity on social media and things like that as well. And yeah, it's, you know, again, it's a private dinner. It's a it's totally private.

2:54:33SpeakerIt's a completely closed system that we put in place to make sure that we're having a private dinner and everybody who's there is invited. And it's you know, it's a It's also just a really well curated room of people. So it's two days this year. It's going to be a lot of fun. We'll have awards. We decided that instead of producing an award that someone has that's kind of this thing that sits around or does whatever, we thought it would be better to, you know, a better situation to work with the sponsors and build gift baskets for first place, second place, and third place in each category with different unique products from those guys like Terp Sous Vide.

2:55:10SpeakerAnd, you know, there's a lot of different ones that have, Chris Brown, These great products that they that we can then put together from you know, a custom slurper from Toro or a custom glass. Chris Brown, You know sculpture from mothership all that stuff will be the first place winners will have a bunch of different things like a cornucopia of stuff that they're getting from the companies.

2:55:30SpeakerChris Brown, yeah there's a nice slurper yeah JP Toro is one of the sponsors with with Toro glass motherships a sponsor. It's a crazy list. It's Terps of Me, Banger Basket, Little Lake Valley Seed Code, Masonic, Mystic Timbers, Octave, Mothership, 710 Merch, Alien Labs, Toroglass, Fidel, Agritech, Globmops, Focus V and Carta, Highly Educated, Rosin Evolution, Clean Pumps, Apex Ancillary, Alchemy Jars, Mills, Uh, there's a, even probably a couple more too.

2:56:04SpeakerI think, uh, uh, Cali X just got in sponsorship in today. Um, so it's all brands that fit really well that are part of our cultural, you know, banger basket and these like Cool companies that are part of our culture that are just help make up a great event too. So that's the, you know, every table has banger baskets on it. There's ISO, there's butane, there's all the things you need.

2:56:28SpeakerYou really just need to bring your rig, you know, bring your torch and your other stuff, but all the other little details that are needed are there. There's a lot of different companies that are doing drops that are exclusive to the event from their mood mats to their teas and other things like that. So from the makers all the way into some of the other people. And then, you know, the art component, Which is all done by our, you know, in-house through Howdy on Instagram, who does all of our stuff for us, including our poster that we just released for this year's Legends.

2:56:56SpeakerAnd then Lock Comedy is working with us on, you know, he's a hash, you know, dead culture, cannabis culture guy who's an artist. And he's kind of helping us, you know, cover that component and make that a big part of the event too. So we have some other surprises that we've kind of put together with him. Yeah. And there's the, there's this year's poster and there's a ton of hidden stuff in it.

2:57:20SpeakerA bunch of different symbolisms and other cool things. So, but yeah, we'll have a lot. Comedy is also going to be presenting and have onsite a bunch of art and then Mothership's doing the GZ1 drop. Which is the hash rules, everything around me dropped with GZ1. So that should be pretty cool. Yeah, there's no music. We have a DJ. You're making me want to come, dude. I'm not going to lie.

2:57:43SpeakerBro, you should be there with us. You should definitely be there with us. I don't know why you wouldn't. That would be the greatest surprise ever. And we have a seed breeders lounge that's outside with the two booths with all the four seed breeders in them. And they're hash seed breeders. We wanted to make sure we had that component there. While people are there, they can mosey up and talk about what's happening next year, what's there this year.

2:58:08SpeakerOne of my favorite things is that if you have makers from all over the country, those guys are able to get together and talk more about swapping genetics and doing things that can help push the hash, you know, culture in each area that they live in and where they are. And, you know, also over great food and, you know, good company and just amazing hash. It's really like Marcus said earlier, we did this interview the other day and it was like, yeah, we, You know, Legends of Hash cares more about the color of your hash than the color of your skin.

2:58:39SpeakerIt's like, you know, it's just a straight up, like none of that stuff, you know, it should be in the room. It's not a part of like dividing anybody. It's really about bringing everybody together and saying like, Hey, we, we really don't care about anything other than like, are you, is it a good person that loves hash that can, you know, you know, wants to dab and wants to enjoy the space and wants to enjoy other people.

2:59:03SpeakerThere's, Aaron Ward- You know there's going to be vegans in the room there's vegetarians in the room and there's meat eaters in the room there's. Aaron Ward- You know sativa lovers and indica lovers and you know there may be a guy firing up some BHL you never know it's like. Aaron Ward- everyone's welcome like one thing we did do this year is we're making large signs. T. And any tobacco smoke or flower smoke is to be done outside.

2:59:25SpeakerAnd the reason for that is so we can preserve that indoor space that we have, where we're all going to be dabbing anyway already, which has ventilation. We just don't want to bring home with us that sort of, you know, extra, you know, carbon and other components when we're judging in the room. It's I think it's a lot better to not have that in the room if you're judging.

2:59:45SpeakerSo Chris Brown, That's, that's one thing. If you go outside, parts per billion breaks it up and you can probably not have an issue with it. But when you're inside and inside space, we think it's a, you know, gives a lot more to your palate and a lot more to what's happening. So there'll be a lot of glass there. Like that's another big part. Big push last year was for glass and breeders.

3:00:06SpeakerAnd farmers this year that we're adding and pushing a little harder with the glass side and Scott Deppi. Motherships are the largest sponsor and they're coming in and kind of bringing some of the glass industry in with us this year. So they've invited some special guests that will be there with us both days. So it's kind of, you know, we feel like it's the right room of people.

3:00:28SpeakerPretty chad-less. To say the least, that it'll be a Chad-free, Chad-free zone for the whole place for everyone. And I say that in a joking way too, but it's definitely like, they won't survive. It's like, you know, somebody who's not into the culture and not a part of this is really just not going to enjoy it. And we've already done a hard, you know, a lot of push-up time.

3:00:53SpeakerOh, get in there. We've already made a, you know, made certain that like the list is a select amount of people That we can't have there in different, uh, you know, in different levels too, because the second day we, we love that because now if we're not able to bring a maker in and put them on that list, which is really hard to do, it's only 40 makers.

3:01:13SpeakerNow we have the opportunity to invite them at least to come to the brunch. They can get to see what it's all about. They can still share their hash and see everybody and, and be a part of it, which is cool. And, and, you know, that makes a big difference for, uh, for helping us make a decision for next year on who's on the list. Is that a marshmallow?

3:01:35SpeakerBut yeah, we could select who's on that list for next year and then just get to know the makers a little more depending on who they are. I'm most excited about, you know, if you're an East Coast ticket holder and you're getting to come out from the East Coast and come into California, which is great weather in December and just kind of extend the good weather and the good vibes and get a good time in California.

3:01:57SpeakerIf you're enjoying that event and, you know, going there, You're getting to be in the room with 60 entries from these 40 makers that you would never see. You can easily identify who the makers are by the jars and go up and say, hey, this is great. I really love this. I love your product. I'd like to shake your hand. We wanted them to be able to get those flowers in the room.

3:02:19SpeakerWe don't feel like by putting their name on the bottom of the jar that it's going to affect the group of 40 makers. They're not going to be impressed with the name of another maker. And, you know, the fact that they're going to if they're going to vote for themselves, you know, we that's another conversation, too. It's like they, you know, we're still figuring that part out.

3:02:36SpeakerWe may make it so that they can't vote for themselves. They actually have to vote for the other makers. And that's pretty easily done. So we have that control in the voting so that it is, you know, like, hey, we want your opinion on this, not to vote for yourself, technically. And I don't know if people like or don't like that. I just think that it makes it more fair.

3:02:55SpeakerIt makes it so that every vote is being counted technically at that point. If you vote for yourself, it's just sort of, it's expected. You're there. We know you're going to vote for yourself. You're already here with us. You voted for yourself as soon as you walked through the door. You know, now let's let the judging, you know, let's, you know, let's see. Yeah, let's, yeah. What's that?

3:03:17SpeakerIt's not really judging if you're just like, hey, I'm just going to vote for me because, you know, my stuff, you know what I mean? I think that's what I mean. It's you want to keep it as an art event where everyone tries everything and appreciates each other. Right. Yep. And that's what we're trying to promote more of, too. We want to know what of the other makers stuff that was entered that you like the most.

3:03:39SpeakerWe don't want to know whether you like your stuff the most because we hope that you're putting your best foot forward and you fucking love what you presented. And that's already expected. So, you know, and it's, it's a great way to really be able to, to get an understanding by, by letting only the makers be the judges. I think it eliminates anything either. I mean, if every person there was a judge, every attendee, and they got to see which, which name was on there, then it's a popularity contest.

3:04:06SpeakerAnd that's not what we're having. It's, it's not a contest at all. So it's more of, you know, a competition between makers to be able to, In their opinion, what they think is the best, you know, stuff this year. And we do have a lot of makers that are, you know, from last year's list. And then we also have, you know, a number of makers that are new for this year that we haven't, that we've never had before.

3:04:30SpeakerSo it's, you know, it's definitely going to be as fair as possible, as transparent as possible. You know, even afterwards, people will be able to look and see what was judged and how it won. So, and I think that stuff's great to document and have so that you can see it and kind of check out what was hot that year. You know, how many, how many things are belched up or, you know, or this or that.

3:04:55SpeakerAnd, you know, it's already, it gets really exciting. At this time of year, my taste for hash kind of dips because I think my, my brain knows that all this crazy hash is about to come. And I started to get, I'm like, all right, I'm just getting high now, like, you know, and started going through the motions because it's quite overwhelming when you start seeing what's coming in, what's culturally relevant, what's kind of brand new that just came in this year that's going to be getting pushed.

3:05:22SpeakerSo that's kind of like the most exciting part for me is to kind of see that stuff. Yeah.

3:05:30SpeakerI admire that about you so much. You have no idea. I also very much at a deep level understand what you're going through. And so The stress and everything is absolutely, you know, you have to balance life, right? As Johnny V was talking about, right? Yes, you can have passion and throw everything you have in terms of your commitment, your will, your vision, what you want to create, right?

3:05:59SpeakerWhat change you want to have and make in the future so that it's not about you, but it's about the legend. Right. What is the long term impact of your work? Right. So I appreciate that so much. I need to get away and get to you and do this experience. And the reason why I bring it up is because I'm running a cannabis sommelier collector's cup, which is all about the flower.

3:06:38SpeakerSo Legends is hash. This is about... And I know in terms of respecting time from everybody, I'd love to just talk about it another time if you want to get on with your day. But I'm also here for you. The one thing I got to say is I just came up with the marshmallow ashtray. Seriously, it is so cool because I didn't have an ashtray and I have kids.

3:07:08SpeakerSo I was smoking a joint. Even when you put the joint on the marshmallow, it kind of toasts it and it comes and releases the sweet aroma. It's so nice. And then you open it because it's sticky. And then you put the joint inside and then you close it up. And then all the moisture, sorry, everything gets sucked. No smell. You can just eat it, yeah. I can eat this end.

3:07:37SpeakerI can eat the butt end. Yeah, you can eat the whole thing. That's, you know, you can get high off of it now. No, no, that's not for me. I don't smoke the filter either. Oh, there you go. But yeah, yeah. So I think that's so awesome, man. And one thing I ask from any of you, The next time you smoke flour, if you don't smoke flour, I get it.

3:08:04SpeakerIf I had the ability to not smoke flour, then I would be smoking full milk all day, any day. But go to my website, which I'll send a link in, and grade a flour. And I'm trying to get your input for a particular flour and how you grade it. If we find alignment, because calibration is so important, the experience that you have. When I first experienced what a quad flower was, I was like, whoa, my life has changed.

3:08:37SpeakerAnd then onto the next quad, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that one I thought was a quad is really a trip. Right? And so your journey really begins that way. So I definitely respect all of the legends and the people that have done all that work because the only way to do it is through experience, right? There's no shortcut to it. So that just brings it up to what I wanted to say, Marcus.

3:09:03SpeakerThank you. And you are amazing. Well, thanks for sharing, Julie. I appreciate that. It has been a good long hash church. We're going for three hours. And although I really want to continue the conversation, I also want to go celebrate my wife's birthday, which is today. And we've been together for like 32 years, 27 years married in a week here. So I'm going to take her for a nice veggie sandwich down in the city.

3:09:32SpeakerBut I will invite all of you back next Sunday. This is a separate place for me as I am sure it is for you. But if you guys can make it, we can talk about all of these things. I think there's a lot more to talk about. Mark Lewis from Napro apologized, said he'd be a lot less busy after MJ Biz. I really want to get him into the conversation with you, Nick.

3:09:51SpeakerI think that that would be explosive and incredible. And I do appreciate everyone for coming on and sharing with us here on Hash Church. I have a deep respect for all of you for certain. And the people, I'll be honest, you know, this conversation today and having Hash Church for like maybe the third week in a row, we had 353 people watching at once today and we haven't broken 300 in quite some time.

3:10:16SpeakerSo thanks everybody. And as long as I'm not frozen, am I? I can't see anyone. I can't see anyone's camera. So usually I can tell by that my internet's a little off. But yeah, so I will post anyone that wants any information shared, I'll post it in the hash church group on Facebook. If you also have something that you want shared, and you're not on Facebook, I can put it in the description of this video, just send me a private message, whether it's You know, Julie's Collector's Cup or the Legends of Hash events or anything that anyone's working on or wants to be shared with.

3:10:56SpeakerI'll put the NAPRO article in the description that I talked about the two lemonines. And we'll get back into this next week, I hope. And maybe if you guys can think even on the panel, anyone that would appreciate being in this conversation that could really bring something to that next level. It's not that I don't want to be inclusive, but there's really like you guys are all special in your own right and your passion and your knowledge and everything that you're doing is really what makes Hash Church special.

3:11:24SpeakerAnd we had built something so special with Hash Church maybe three or four years ago that I want to bring it back to that and understand that this conversation that happens, these conversations that happen are shaping the industry and the community that we live in. So we do owe it to ourselves. We have a little bit of a responsibility to continue with that. So thank you all for coming.

3:11:46SpeakerMay the full mouth bless your bowl sooner than later. And porch plants, no slouch. Peace out, everybody. Thanks, Marcus. Congratulations. Thank you, Marcus. Later, guys. Thanks.