Arcana Collective: Underground Renaissance

0:01BubblemanAll right, third time's a charm. Let's see if we can get this popping. It seems as though we're setting it up. We're redirecting. Oh, I think it's working. I think it's working.

0:18BubblemanIt's working. There I am. My goodness. Okay, so I just have to send this over to the other YouTube channel.

0:30BubblemanOkay, and quickly, by the way, welcome everyone to Hash Church season 11, episode 45. We're almost done an entire month, or sorry, an entire year of Hash Church in a row. In the meantime, really quickly, I want to thank our sponsors. So we're going to start it out with that. Thank you to the Press Club. Trusted by top hash makers from around the world since 2016, the Press Club is your one-stop shop for award-winning solventless gear from press bags to wash bags to presses to vessels.

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3:32BubblemanYou can go over to www.bubblebag.com and use the code hashchurch10. You'll see that the regular prices have been... Cut by about 50%. So with all of that said, thank you to Puffco and to the Press Club and to Bubble Bags. I am going to start letting people in because we have a bunch of people waiting. And that is not every weekend that we have 10 or 12 people waiting.

4:01BubblemanApologies to you guys. What happened was... My link didn't work every once in a while when I go to go live on Facebook, the YouTube or Zoom link does not work properly. So you guys hit the jackpot today. First time in about 40 episodes where it just didn't work. So my apologies to all of you. But it looks like we are back up and running. Everyone is out of the one room and into the other.

4:31BubblemanYeah, yeah, we're good. We're good. Welcome, brother. Welcome. Kaya in the house with the whole Arcana crew. I got to tell you guys, I'm pretty fucking stoked about this. This seems like a powerhouse that you guys got going on here, and I'm excited to talk to you all about it. I did invite a couple of my regular panelists, Etienne Fontaine, who's the founder of the Berkeley Patients Group and just an all-around unbelievable cannabis activist.

4:58BubblemanI'm sure some of you, if not all of you, know him well. And we're happy to see that he's not in a hospital bed right now. So that puts joy on my face, Etienne. That was scary when I saw your post saying you were back in the hospital. So very glad that you are out of the hospital, brother. We need you in those streets, not in those sheets.

5:19Etienne FontanYeah, nine out of 10 doctors would not recommend, but... Yeah, I had to go in. The pain was not subsiding, but now it's starting to finally muscles swell going down, pain in a hip going away. So I'm conscious today. And then today is also we have the gathering for Richard Lee from Oaksterdam today. So I will be giving a speech again for another departed friend of mine.

5:47Etienne FontanBut great to be here. What a power panel of geneticists we have. So yeah, Marcus, take it away.

5:56BubblemanYes, thank you. Thank you very much. Well, yeah, honestly, I've been looking forward to this show for a while. Have a shit ton. of questions compiled, but I thought maybe we would, you know, start it out nice and slow. First of all, thank you all for showing up on a Sunday morning at 9am. Holy shit, what kind of crazy person puts a podcast on a Sunday morning at 9am?

6:20BubblemanThis one right here. That's who. Just for 11 years, though. We're getting into it pretty good. I've been speaking with Kaya a little bit about this and just kind of talking about, you know, getting this going. I know you guys have been somewhat quiet, although I did see the High Times article there. And fuck, I didn't realize who took that picture initially. You know that photographer is like an epic legend that took the picture of all of you guys?

6:46BubblemanYeah. Dude, legend.

6:48SpeakerVery aware.

6:50BubblemanLegend, bro. Such a fucking legend. I was really like, dude, that's like the equivalent of like, you know, Annie Leibovitz for Hetty Culture. Like to have that dude take your picture. So yeah, no, I think, you know, Colin's going to be coming in as well, who obviously has, you know, grown a bunch of your guys' genetics. And Dr. Mark, our resident PhD chemist, will be popping in as well.

7:15BubblemanAnd other than that, the Hash Church panel will be pretty small. I figured, you know, with the amount of guys that we have here, we should be, we should be good to go for a good four hours. I thought we would maybe go through some introductions, actually. I think that's, oh, here we go with Mr. Kim, still letting some folks in. Yeah, I think introductions would be amazing.

7:37BubblemanI don't know if you guys want to have Michael or

7:46BubblemanAndy sort of started off or, you know, Kaya, really, whatever, whatever you think, dude, you're going to kind of be my main point of reference for the Arcana team because I know you the best. And just just a little like even like, you know, five to 10 minute introduction from each person will kind of get us into the first hour and then we can get into, you know, kind of all of the all of these questions that I have, which I'm pretty excited.

8:12SpeakerYeah, it might be fun if we take turns introducing each other.

8:17BubblemanAbsolutely, man. Whatever you feel. I just want to dive into the heart. Awesome. Dive into the heart of cannabis' underground renaissance. What did you think of that description I sent you for the video? I thought it was really good, actually. Awesome.

8:37SpeakerDon't make this more difficult than it can be. All right, Greg. I'll give you guys all the limelight.

8:51SpeakerAre we live right now, Marcus?

8:52BubblemanOh, yeah, dude. We are live as live can be. Let me see. We got... Well, that's got to be more than that. Yeah, we've got a couple hundred people watching live right now with us. So shout out to all of those folks, the hardcores that show up every Sunday. No matter what we have going on, people are pretty stoked to hear from everyone. Fictitious Freedom is stoked on this panel.

9:15BubblemanBingo Lombardi's in the house holding it down. And he'll kind of, as you guys are talking, he'll like, you know, put out your social media, put out your Instagram account, whatever it is. He's good that way. So yeah, I figure we should... Hit something flavorful and do some introductions, man. Go ahead, Kai. Awesome. Introduce yourself. Well, I'll take this off.

9:36SpeakerThere you go. That'll be the last you hear from me because nobody wants to hear from me. That's not true. But I'm Michael Klein. I was the co-founder of Bio365, which is a living soil substrate company. And I've met these gentlemen over the years as customers, and we would... You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

10:19SpeakerGrowing in Bio365 for seven, eight years. And it's really, it's been my pleasure to know these guys, to work with them, to attend a lot of dead shows. It sounds like you're a deadhead there.

10:32BubblemanAbsolutely.

10:33SpeakerRight. So I was lucky enough to actually tour with him for 10 years as social director. So that's how I knew Jay and, you know, got access to how I learned to grow too, because I You know, we had about 20 guys who would give us incredible pot from Sonoma and Mendocino, and we would give them laminates. And when it went legal in California, they taught me how to grow, and I started a patience collective.

11:03SpeakerSo anyway, with that, I will pass it on to Andy. And then he'll pass it on to the team.

11:09BubblemanDude, we're definitely going back and talking about laminates for bags of weed in a little bit. Dr. Mark's going to want to go deep into that, I'm telling you. He's a massive deadhead. It's crazy that he's not in here right now, but thank you for sharing. That's cool. So Bio 365 kind of started as customer base, but you kind of got to know these guys and saw what a lot of us are seeing.

11:31BubblemanWow, we're living in a topsy-turvy world, and maybe it's time someone took the reins.

11:39SpeakerSo I'm Andy Berman. I've known Michael for decades, a long time. Michael calls me January of 2024. He says, I got this idea. I got a bunch of breeders. I've worked with a lot of them because I've run, I've been in, on the legal side, I've been doing this for 10 years in nine states and I've run some very, very large operations in Anyway, Michael calls me up.

12:08SpeakerI got this great idea. I'm going to launch a brand and work with all of these breeders. And I said, fantastic. I am not your guy.

12:18SpeakerI'm not your guy. Because Michael, these guys are going to be a challenge to work with them. And it's really hard launching a brand. And we had 16. I get on my first phone call. And there's 18 of us on the call and I'm like, wow, this is gonna be a challenge. But to Michael's point, we actually whittled it down to an amazing core group of people.

12:39SpeakerI do wanna say, Marcus, you said arcana, it's arcana. And arcana is a medieval word that means knowledge or information possessed by the initiates. And it's really symbolic of who these folks are. When I met you, Marcus, at ICBC, and then when I saw you on that panel, and then we had a chance to talk the next day because Kaya introduced us at Spanibus. We talked about, and your panel discussion was around authenticity, but our discussion the next day was on the vibrational level of authenticity, and at times it vibrates higher than love.

13:23SpeakerAnd that ties, for me, that ties to what Arcane is all about. These guys, there's hundreds of people on this call right now, and there's hundreds of people around the globe that provide amazing things and honor the plant and honor the genetics and are appreciating the technology that takes place in the science these days. But these six are among that group, and they're authentic. And that's what Arcane is just trying to do, right?

13:51SpeakerWe're We're a good group of people. We've combined a love for the plant and an appreciation of the genetics and built out a facility and doing nursery services and nursery sciences. But it's all about being authentic and returning this industry back to where it should be because the legal industry failed. So that's where I come in. These guys have given me the privilege and the honor to, on any given day, Be the general manager and set the batting order, but I get to call, I get to be the umpire too and call balls and strikes.

14:26SpeakerSo it's a pleasure.

14:27BubblemanBeautiful. Well, no, it's great to have you here. It's great that you remember that conversation. I remember that conversation. Absolutely. And it's crazy that I mispronounced that word because I was a Dungeons and Dragons nerd back in high school. It's all good, Marcus. Arcana is, you know, it's the it's the intelligence based skill used to recall lore and spells in Dungeons and Dragons. So my apologies. Good to see you, though.

14:52SpeakerNo. Yeah. Good to see you, too. And thank you for having me. It's a real privilege. Thank you, everybody, on the call. Absolutely. Kaya, back to you, man. All right. Well, most of you folks probably know me. I've been on the show a few times, and Marcus and I have been friends for a very long time. And today, I'm not here representing the roots and my hash.

15:13SpeakerI'm here representing this incredible team that has been assembled and been honored to be a part of. It really is it's a it's a magical it's a magical team that we have and it's a magical feeling and I just kind of wanted to start by saying you know this industry I mean I've been in this since the mid 90s right there was no industry there was no it was just you know people doing their thing and being very quiet about it and keeping it very private um people talked about cannabis culture and wanting to do parties and sessions and stuff and um Back in the day, that really wasn't a thing.

15:52SpeakerThat was not part of the old cannabis culture. I mean, you had your friends you burned with, but especially if you were a grower, you kept your mouth shut and you didn't want anybody to know what you were doing. And you protected that like at all costs because exposing that meant to really put your belly out there. So as we got into this industry thing, I always wondered, you know, who are behind these companies, you know?

16:20SpeakerAnd what we have here is not just special people doing the work, but Michael and Andy are the business end of this thing that we're doing. And they're really good people and their hearts and their Their activities are, you know, they've been around weed. They, you know, Andy's told me, he shared a story of when he smoked his first hash joint. And of course, Michael being a part of the Grateful Dead's lore, it's like, this is a really magical group.

16:52SpeakerIt's not a bunch of guys in suits that came off of Wall Street that want to come in here and rape and pillage. These guys showed up and wanted to empower us. And believed in a mission that, like you said, somebody needs to take the reins of this thing in a very serious way. And I think if we do that, the people will follow. And If we give the people something good to follow, those robber barons that are coming and trying to just take from us, they will lose.

17:26SpeakerThey'll walk out of here with empty pockets and we'll be able to keep the riches for the community and share it among ourselves. So with that, I'm going to pass it off to, let's pass it off to my good friend Josh D over there. Josh D, tell them who you are, what you're doing.

17:48SpeakerWhat's up, Mark? How you doing, man? It's been 10 years since I did this show and basically decided to come out of the underground shadows completely and go up to Washington, do something legal, came out on your show and really got to kind of launch my brand from doing Hash Church 10 years ago. So Here we are with...

18:21SpeakerI guess the industry now is over a decade into legalization. It's not exactly my vision of the way things were going to go, but I've been able to grow and maintain my brand and do certain things. And really, ultimately for me, my goal was to always be able to stay in this space. I love what I do. I've been doing it forever. And so You know, we're always trying to get creative and we're always trying to come up with fresh new ideas of how we're going to manage our, I guess, our energy, our time, who we're going to collaborate with, and so on.

19:02SpeakerMy experience up in Washington, when I moved up there from L.A., was just... It was really good, man. I met some lifelong friends, one of them being Ghost up at Kush Family. We partnered for a while. My family were from LA, so we ended up moving back. But we maintained a lifelong friendship. We've only grown closer. And when this opportunity came up and Ghost was like, hey, we have an opportunity to work together on some of these ideas and projects we wanted to do.

19:37Speakerum and introduced me to this idea of joining this group i was you know i was excited man for the opportunity to be able to breed with like world-class breeders because um i'm a grower like i'm a dealer and i'm a grower i love that i really have focused my life on growing high-end cannabis but i just recently got into breeding so Joining like a group like this really for me is special because it's not exactly been my focus or my expertise, but it has with this group and I have, you know, Great, you know, kind of trust in these guys because you got to have, you know, trust and respect for the people you're working with.

20:25SpeakerIf you want to build something that's going to be, you know, worth it, that's going to last, that's going to be have integrity. And that's what Arcana means to me is that now I'm part of this larger entity, a larger group of guys that are Bringing, you know, bringing their A game and being, I guess, you know, Michael Klein has given us the opportunity to all have a garden together and grow together.

20:54SpeakerAnd I'm grateful for that, to be a part of this group. And yeah, so this is like a new, exciting chapter for me, for all of us, I believe. And, you know, we have this now elevated platform to, Put together, you know, our projects, our new genetics and stuff that we've been working on over the years. It's a killer group of guys. And we've only just begun.

21:23BubblemanI like it, dude. I can't believe it's been 10 years since that show. What the hell? Holy smokes. Blink, eh? 10 years, man. Just 10 years. It's all good.

21:35SpeakerI was sitting here so nervous with you guys like oh my god and Todd McCormick's hitting me up like who the fuck are you you know and like you're not the deal and then I'm like dude I'm telling you like this is the story the reason I wasn't on the forums was because I uh I had a fear of the internet. Like, I really was an underground guy.

21:54SpeakerLike, nobody knew where I lived. You know, Kai said that. I mean, this is the story of a grower, man. Like, you, part of your job is to stay, you know, invisible. And so you're doing the opposite of branding. And then when it went legal and I wanted to enter that space, it was like, okay, here I am. And a lot of guys were like, where did you just come from?

22:13SpeakerWe've been doing, like, you're not, how can that be possible? And it's like, no. We had a small group of guys and we were in girls and we were really quiet.

22:21BubblemanAnd so doing your mission, that's how it can be possible.

22:25SpeakerWell, yeah, and I went to, you know, I've been locked up and in trouble, like, you know, and so all these things just happen with the...

22:31BubblemanIt's like, how can you do that? Well, 10-year mandatory minimums, actually, is how we're pulling that off.

22:36SpeakerWhen Eddie Lepp got sentenced, I literally ran into my room and was like, one, two, three, four, five, and we started counting plants, and I was like, oh, shit, we're over the limit. Like, literally, I didn't even realize over 1,000 plants was 10 years, you know, mandatory minimum, or it could be. So, yeah, it was a different time. But your show really was the first time that I came out.

23:01BubblemanWell, listen, in your defense, when I started doing this, and first of all, it's awesome to have you back, and we won't be waiting 10 more years after this show, that's for sure. Shout out to you wearing the fucking Ozzy Osbourne shirt, because I love that. Rest in peace to Ozzy. Be an Ozzy fan through and through until the day I die. Started listening to Black Sabbath when I was 10 years old and never looked back, really.

23:25BubblemanI'm from Winnipeg, so it's like, you know, it's like we're a little bit hardcore over in Winnipeg listening to Black Sabbath at 10 years old. But wicked. Yeah, no, it's not everyone was me. And I'll tell you, back in the day, in the 90s, when I was just like, I'll just make videos of like making hash and we'll just sell these bags and people like you can't.

23:42BubblemanGo on the internet and make videos of making hash. Are you fucking mental? Like it's totally illegal. And, you know, I was a little bit loose with it and just going online and being all loose. And then, you know, it was about two years into it that I realized I had this incredibly massive responsibility of knowing where this huge portion of hash makers, I mean, people, I'll be honest, We're not insulated and we're not protecting themselves very well back in those days.

24:09BubblemanMost people were not like ardent criminals. They were just like growers. And they were like, they were all sending me their addresses for sure. They were sending me the addresses to their grow when they were ordering their bubble bags. And that became like a huge responsibility for me because I thought, holy fuck. A couple of years into it, I thought, my God, like, I'm surprised the DEA never figured this out to like start some company and just sell all this shit to all these people.

24:36BubblemanAnd I felt this massive responsibility of like not ever letting anyone gain access to these addresses. So it was... It was get an order and burn the address. Get an order and burn the address. I just didn't want the responsibility of like, oh, did you hear Bubble Man got robbed and all of our stuff is now exposed. So I feel you. Being private back in the day was a lot.

25:02BubblemanWell, it certainly wasn't, hey, do you guys want to all get together and we'll record all of our conversations and promote and stream them live on the internet? Do you guys want to do that? It's like, what are you talking about? That's fucking madness. No, I don't want to do that.

25:17SpeakerI think that's conspiracy. Let's go explain the Rico. It's definitely Rico. Yeah, Rico Suave right there. Thanks for having me back, man. It's great. Yeah, absolutely. Josh, I didn't know you announced your brand on the show. That's amazing. Well, initially, like, you know, I mean... I did the Instagram and the show all around the same time. And, you know, I would like look at the internet and be like, you guys are fucking crazy.

25:44SpeakerI don't even like computers. I barely turned them on. So when I started Instagram, I think it was in 14 or 15, it was a shock, man, to me to be online, exposed. Anyways, this is like 10 years now of being exposed. And, you know, right back, you know, like... Right back in the circle to where it started for me. So, yeah, it's wild. Awesome. Well, welcome to the show.

26:11BubblemanNext up.

26:15BubblemanWho's next up?

26:17SpeakerYou want me to go? I do. What's up, Marcus? I don't think we've ever met. Maybe we have at Freedom Rally. I'm not sure. I think I might have met you at Freedom Rally in Boston one day.

26:28BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

26:50SpeakerAnd I met up with Mike and Joe B and scored some killer flour. And I was like, this is some of the best flour I ever smoked. And luckily I put my phone number down on a little index card and we exchanged numbers. And who knows if they were even giving me the real number back then. And luckily it was. After touring, I reached out to them.

27:09SpeakerAnd got an ounce sent back to Massachusetts in August. And there was 13 seeds in it. And that's where the lucky 13 came from of the original chem seeds. And I started the four of those. And one became the chem sister and the other became the chem 91. And they told me when I bought the bud, it was dog weed. Dog Bud and Chemweed, some people call it Chemweed, some people call it Dog Bud.

27:29SpeakerSo when I actually started those seeds, the first four, I combined the two names and that's when Chemdog. So I started the name Chemdog and started that whole thing. And that's what puts me out. I'm like kind of like Josh. I'm kind of like... Thank you for watching.

27:57SpeakerThank you for watching.

28:18BubblemanSo quick details. What show were you at in 91?

28:21SpeakerIt wasn't, it was actually Deer Creek 19. Yep, Noblesville, Indiana. Hey, G, what's up, man? And I just, is that Mark? And you just called me. Yeah, well, Michael, I wish I met you because I would have been trading you fucking good weed for good land. Like, and Mark can vouch for me on this. That's what I did for fish.

28:42BubblemanYou know, funny enough, today I wore my fish shirt. I traded this shirt for 10 bucks worth of mushrooms at 96 P&E Show. And I remember trading the guy 10 bucks worth of mushrooms for this shirt. And I got it. And this guy standing beside me goes, that's a really nice shirt. And this was like, I was maybe three years into following the band around and seeing shows here and there.

29:07BubblemanAnd it was fucking Mike Gordon. And I remember being like, holy shit.

29:12SpeakerHey, Marcus, I make his bases. That's what's up, dude.

29:19BubblemanThat's what's up.

29:45BubblemanSo good old Deer Creek, Indiana. I peaked at the creek. I'm certain I have that shirt somewhere. I peaked at the creek. I freaked at the Greek.

29:55Dr Mark ScialdoneThat first peak was a peak at the Greek, and that meant the Greek theater in Berkeley, right?

30:01SpeakerI freaked at the creek.

30:03Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, that was Deer Creek.

30:05SpeakerThat was the show with the death threat on Jerry. When they played with the lights on. That was 95. That was 95. That was at the end. Right. And then they broke down the gates.

30:18Dr Mark ScialdoneNo, this was summer tour 91. So this would have been the first summer tour with Vince. And was Hornsby at that show, Greg? Yeah, he was. I can't remember.

30:31SpeakerHe was at tour because he did that. I think he was.

30:33Dr Mark ScialdoneThere was a rip in Jack Straw. So this we're talking June 14th and 15th, right? Is that right? June 6th and 7th. Oh, June 6th and 7th. Okay.

30:43BubblemanSee, details matter when you're writing the history. When you're keeping history, the details matter. That's why I wanted to know the show. And I had heard that before, but... Obviously, I want the audience. It's tough sometimes when you know the stories, but it's like, well, not the whole audience doesn't know the stories. So let's make sure that.

31:00Dr Mark ScialdoneSo Greg, so let's dig a layer deeper. So this was our friend, our mutual friend, Mike Peabud, who you got that weed from, right, at Deer Creek. Mike and Joe Bean. Yeah, so Mike was from Crested Butte at the time, right? Was he living in Crested Butte? Yeah. And so, yeah, so those strains. So if you talk to Rob Carney, Rob's part of that group, will tell you that most of that weed came from Skully Puck.

31:35Dr Mark ScialdoneExactly, dude. So give us that part of the history because this is... I don't know.

31:40SpeakerI don't know that much about that part, Mark. I'll tell you, I know a little bit, like I know the pieces, but that's it, man. I know that they used to get the weed trucked over from snowmobiling, from snowmobiles.

31:49Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, but those, those were originally from, weren't those strains originally from NorCal though? Weren't those NorCal strains? They were. NorCal strains that these guys brought to Crested Butte. Cause they were growing Crested Butte and selling up on the front range. So I was living in Fort Collins at the time. And, you know, at that time, Yeah, a lot of the weed that was sold in and around Denver and Boulder and Fort Collins came from that Crested Butte crew.

32:17Dr Mark ScialdoneThey grew a lot of weed and they grew those little, what were they called? The, the pea buds. Yeah. And that was out Bayonia though.

32:25SpeakerThose are, there was pea buds. Yeah.

32:27BubblemanSome of the best outdoor I've ever smoked.

32:30SpeakerRight. I wish I could, if I saw it, I could find it, but it's so hard.

32:35Dr Mark ScialdoneSo that, that wasn't part of that genetics at all though. Hey, Greg.

32:39SpeakerI don't know. I don't think, no, the Peabody was not part of the chems at all. The chems are from like, the chems are getting brought in from supposedly they were getting the chem strains from Northwest or North Oregon, you know, Southern California. I mean, Northern California, Southern Oregon, those were coming in. Right. So we really don't know the origins of the chem. The Peonia bud was grown out in Colorado out in Peonia.

33:01SpeakerThat was just fucking beautiful. And I even have some of those seeds. I think Ghost has some of those seeds up at our facility, which Shane will get into about our beautiful facility we have up in Shelton, Washington.

33:11BubblemanYeah, we still got to finish our introductions. But I do love the fact, you know, what Andy had spoken to earlier was the authenticity. And this is like... You're embedded in the culture. You know what I mean? You can't escape it.

33:27Etienne FontanYou're like, oh, I was at this Grateful Dead show and I got this bag weed and I met these dudes and they sent me some more.

33:34BubblemanAnd then these are the authentic stories. And it's okay. Like we're going to get into the fact that there was breeding and now there's breeding and they aren't the same thing, right? We understand that like chucking some pollen into a tent is not the same as planting 50,000 seeds and picking Breathing Stock. So we're going to get into all of that later on, but I really feel there's a massive value for, and you know, Dr. Mark said it a million times as well in how important the Grateful Dead culture and scene was in helping share and promote Kind Bud, right?

34:14BubblemanWhich is like exactly what we called it. Kind Bud. Go ahead, Michael.

34:17SpeakerMarcus, I feel also, let me, hold on, Michael. This is my whole theory, and I said this to you before. To me, the Grateful Dead Because it brought so many relationships together in all sorts of different ways, but everything was kind of the first form of social media, I feel, in a way. Don't take it the wrong way. It's almost like the first form of social media type.

34:39SpeakerI don't know, kind of.

34:41BubblemanNot wrong, because really, like... Go ahead, Michael. Yeah, go ahead, Michael, and I'll chime in.

34:46SpeakerThis is really serendipitous, because I got sent an article this morning out of Free Press. It was this girl who was writing about, she was a mother now and her son was a little lost. And when she was young, her older brother was a total deadhead, you know, full on touring every summer, living in his car. And she talked about in the post-atheist world, You know, we use religion to pass the idea of what a good life is, you know, regardless of the religion or the culture.

35:24SpeakerAnd in a post-atheist world, we don't offer that. It wasn't offered to us. It's not being offered to our kids. And she said, you know, the Grateful Dead are supplying those values. You know, they're supplying the community. It was a beautiful, beautiful article. I mean, I'll send it around after we get done.

35:48BubblemanWhat better place to find yourself as a young man or woman when you're lost than on Grateful Dead Tour? Right. You know? Just stay away from that fucking family bus.

36:02SpeakerThe Oshuas. The Oshua bus.

36:07SpeakerThey made good clothing. They made good clothing.

36:10Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd their cookies taste good.

36:11BubblemanOh, fuck. That is hilarious. All right, we'll appreciate that, Kim. That was awesome. No, no, no. We're going to be very organic. We're going to be a nice, loose conversation. We're going to get into some good things. I just want to finish off making sure everyone gets introduced and tells us a little bit about themselves.

36:34SpeakerWhy don't we pass it off to Shane that we can tell us a little bit about whatever he wants to tell us about.

36:38BubblemanI think that'd be amazing.

36:44SpeakerI'm saying you guys probably know me as Sonny Chiba. Wow, man, it's been a while since I've done a podcast. So this is kind of funny. So yeah, my original start, like I started growing in the East Coast in my early teens and my parents were a big influence in cannabis and Grateful Dead in my early years. And ironically, the Grateful Dead has always been a big influence here in my life.

37:16SpeakerAnd driving me towards cannabis and a plant. So it's, it's, it is really surreal to be here full circle and, you know, working with Michael because I'm like, wow, it's just growing good weed and, you know, and listening to the Gravel Dead and good music. You know, it's, uh, I was told that shit will never get me anywhere in life and here I am. It's very ironic, uh, And yeah, it's interesting, but just, you know, you find yourself lost out there as a young kid or something like that.

37:43SpeakerAnd it's amazing with that power, that network you do, you know, it's, you don't know where the road's going to take you, but just believe in it. Have good energy, so. Totally. Yeah. So, yeah, my early days, I was on the East Coast and I was, you know, a deadhead and stuff like that. I was getting in a lot of trouble. And one day I was, I had a conversation with Jack Hare and Dennis Perrone when they were setting up the California medical program.

38:12SpeakerAnd Jack convinced me, he said, stop getting treated like a criminal and come out to the West Coast and get involved with this new medical marijuana that we're doing. So that was always just like the big lightning bolt in my head. So I just was like, all right, that's what I'm going to go do. And eventually, rather than going to California, I went to Oregon. And not too long after that, hooked up with this...

38:33SpeakerFriend named Monty, who was, you guys know, Subcool and Miss Jill. And we started TGA and started doing a lot of crazy little breeding projects around what we call terpenes, I guess, these days, right? Like fruit flavors. I mean, it's interesting because a lot of these guys are like the dials out there. And that was never a part of my breeding program. That's what everybody else was doing in like 2006, seven and eight, nine.

38:58SpeakerIt was like, oh, geez, and chems. And I was like, I'm just going to stay in my lane. Growing so much OG and, you know, chems over the years, especially the past 10 years and doing it, running MSOs on large scale. But, you know, it's really cool to be working with these guys and bring the terpenes that I've worked with in the past to introduce them to thiols.

39:20SpeakerLike, you know, a lot of people have taken my genetics, early genetics, crossed them out like that, you know, or out there, but it'll be fun to do all that stuff here with these guys. So, Really exciting what we're doing here. The past 10 years, I've been, yeah, I kind of turned off the breeding. Like I've always been a breeder, but I, I kind of started focusing on large scale.

39:43SpeakerLike let's, let's see what we can do with the plant. What is clean cannabis and really just accelerate, you know, work with science. And I had an opportunity to work with a gene finder or G and karma and, uh, Really just, it really opened, working with Gene Finder really opened the door to like, you know, with a large scale, a large scale and just learning that craft.

40:05SpeakerAnd I've just continued on that path over the past eight years of just, you know, like trying to define, you know, how to do it bigger and better and cleaner. And kind of in the end, in the past few years, just going through the shit show, all the MSO stuff was like, you know, you just like, like Kai was saying, who are these people on the inside of these coffees and stuff like that?

40:26SpeakerAnd just seeing all that stuff and how it's going, it's just like, it just becomes disheartening after a while. You just start losing a little bit of that passion. You're like, what's next? What are we going to do next? And just working with Michael and hanging out with Michael and spending a lot of time with Cam and stuff, we were all just like, well, what is next?

40:43SpeakerWhat are we going to do? And I've learned to appreciate that better things can happen when you have a great team. And you could just do bigger, better things. When you're an individual, it's just you. I mean, you're just in that little box, but when you have a big team and you, you can accomplish so much more. So it was really exciting to bring Arcana into fruition and be here today.

41:12SpeakerIt's what we're doing is monumental. And I think it's very, very exciting to have a flair of passion again in this crazy industry that we're in right It's very dark times, I guess, right? So it's like, it's good to try to create some sunshine and shit, right?

41:30BubblemanIt's always the darkest before the light.

41:33SpeakerRight.

41:34BubblemanThis is what I have found in life. And as Ren says, it's not a David versus Goliath. It's a pendulum that swings from the darkness to the light. And the brighter the light, the darker the shadow would cast. And so, yeah, I love that you mentioned Subcool. Rest in peace to him. He was a homie, man. He was a real friend. I always got along so well with him.

42:00BubblemanAnd he... He was super controversial and he was always, you know, getting it into with with people. I mean, Colin and I were both on like true stoners back in the day when Jill and well, before Sub showed up, it was Jack and Jill, if you remember prior to to Sub showing up. But yeah, that whole history with Sub and He was just this wild fucking guy and people all had their opinions of him.

42:23BubblemanBut all I knew is every time he put anything in my bowl, it liquefied like water and dripped through the screen. Like the guy had hash that looked like rosin like 15 to 20 years ago. And I just could never... People are like, oh, fucking Subcool this and Subcool that. And I just be like, yeah, but like, fuck, his resin really melts. Like, don't you find his resin... Like, I'm like, fuck, dude, like...

42:47BubblemanSo I've always had the highest, you know, and to be honest, he was a massive bubble ambassador because obviously when you when you have the best shit and this isn't like your buddies telling you this, this is the word of fucking God. The banks, they're like, here, we ran it through. This is what came out. It's just like it looks like what's behind Colin right now. That's like rosin.

43:10BubblemanBut this is what his hash looked like. And it was every cultivar he ever gave me. And he was so generous with me, with his seeds. I still have his entire catalog in my, in my fridge downstairs. You know, he'd just be like, oh, let me send you some seats, man. And of course he was like, you know, Sub was almost the beginning of the, the scared to scale up.

43:34BubblemanSub was very much like, you gotta just hand wash, dude. I like my one gallon, you know, the first set of bags I sent him were just a real little set and he just do these little batches and whatnot. And it was all about the hand stir. And, you know, this this nerd nation like the TGA, like it all blew up so big that people were just constantly like, oh, no, it's all about the hand wash, the hand wash. Like he popularized the hand wash.

43:59BubblemanThere's no doubt about it.

44:01Collin PalmerI think it's awesome to note Jelly Hash. You know, I think all of us here remember Jelly Hash, right? And I think his work allowed us to create that type of resin. So I think that's something that should be noted is, you know, I remember him on the forums sharing that quite early. And I don't remember many other people calling it Jelly Hash before that. Yeah, for sure.

44:25BubblemanAnyway, that's cool that you have that history, Shane, with him and with them. And yeah, it's great to hear that you're a part of this whole team. And I'm looking forward to getting deeper into it.

44:38SpeakerMy sweet memories of him are always those early years, like the early forum days, like, you know, that I kind of parted out with TGA 2007-8, but those early years, like that was the prime and everything that you just said, like his flower quality and just You know, it was just over the top. That was an early renaissance, you know, especially with the lash.

45:01BubblemanYeah, it spoke volumes to me. To me, it was like, I didn't realize that herb could look perfect, but wash poorly. Like you could, and when I say wash, sift or wash, meaning it's not the process that's changing it. It's just that the resin, Thank you for watching.

45:50BubblemanWe got one more. I see Michael in the corner. Refugee.

45:56SpeakerLast but not least, the refugee. I was going to show him the terpene. All right. So, hi, Marcus. It's really nice to meet you, and thanks for having us. My name is Michael, but that's my government name. I go by Fuji, refugee on Instagram. Where do I start? Well, I started growing way back in the early 90s. I was one of the gatekeepers of the OG. It was called Super Knot way back in the day.

46:29SpeakerAnd then, yeah, I got popped in 93. And then I moved to Denver. And then I started... You know, just cultivating in Denver in 99. And I've been here since. Opened up a dispensary in 2009 called the Canisur. It was the Mile Howe Wellness Center at first, but then we changed it to the Canisur. And then I got a letter from the government for cease and desist.

47:10BubblemanYeah.

47:12SpeakerAnd I went back underground. My breeding history is I've been breeding pretty much the whole time. I've been working with hazes and OGs. Oh, yeah. The Larry's is I grew the Larry's first. That's, I guess, a sister of the OG.

47:40SpeakerThat's, you know, the DEA took that one from me, and I've never gotten it back. Larry's still around, but I don't think he's growing anymore. So it's out there. But yeah, and then I got the OG from Corey and Alec. They were the one who popped it. I called it the 92 because that's when they popped it is like October, November of 92. I didn't get it until like July of actually August of 93.

48:12SpeakerIt's when I after I got done with the courts and I was on probation. And yeah, I didn't I didn't stop growing.

48:23BubblemanSo well, God bless you for that.

48:29SpeakerLet's see. I bred the Kerpel in like 2009. It got entered into High Times. It placed second on the Indica Cup. That's really my like only, you know, like famous or I guess I'm not famous, but whatever the strand that has any kind of notoriety. But yeah, I bred all kinds of other stuff, you know, so. I had a hand in the Tallahassee grape. That was like a strand that was going around Florida way back in the 92-ish, 93-ish.

49:10BubblemanSo you started early. Like, did you start in the 80s or just like 1990?

49:15SpeakerNo, I graduated high school in 92. And that's when I started growing. Pretty much my second semester, I moved out of my house and Uh, got into a grow with a partner.

49:31BubblemanSo that's awesome.

49:33SpeakerYeah. Uh, it's, you know, long, long, crazy road. Um, you know, to be part of this team is kind of amazing. Uh, my goal is letting us, uh, actually do some real breeding. Um, you know, you could only do so much in a limited space, you know, I mean, We're all growing in houses and apartments and stuff. So, you know, popping already over a hundred seeds, you're already like five years mandatory.

50:05SpeakerYou start going over there, you get your 10 years mandatory. So we're always, we're always having to deal with that, but you know, it's a different world. These guys actually pulled me under from a rock. I've been hiding for the last like 10 years. But yeah, it's exciting to actually work for reals and do some real breeding and do some real selection. And, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's why I, you know, joined this team and, and, you know, Going to create a lot of really, really cool stuff just because of this genetic pool that we have and the collection that we have.

50:48SpeakerWe're going to be doing a lot of embryo rescue pretty soon here. So that's going to be really exciting. I've got a grip of really, really old land race seeds that has been, you know, I've been collecting and a lot of people have gifted to me. So that's going to be exciting. The real exciting part. So, but yeah, anyways, thank you for having us. Really great to meet you and love all your macro work.

51:16BubblemanThanks, dude. Appreciate the kind words and super stoked to hear from you. You know, I keep we keep hearing this term real breeding and I get it. I know there's a big conversation there. We have Chimera on here all the time and he is at a very high level of understanding of breeding and genetics and the science and books and studying and, you know, degrees and You know, all of this stuff.

51:38BubblemanBut I can't say that like what everyone has done here in the room. I almost laughed when you said 93. I was like, oh, shit, 93. He got busted early. I didn't get busted till 98. And then I was like, I wonder when everyone got busted. Maybe we should ask everyone. Hey, everyone, what year were you first busted with with cannabis? ATN's like 93, 95, 96, 97.

52:00BubblemanWell, three times in 97. 72.

52:02Etienne FontanOh, shit. Oh, gee.

52:05BubblemanYeah, yeah. Jesus.

52:07Speaker74 for me. 72. We have to deal with Operation Green. I was kicked out of prep school. Good for you. So green merchant. That's crazy.

52:17BubblemanThat was a year before I was born. And I'm not like super young.

52:21SpeakerNo, I know. Good for you. You look great. So well, I'm really 112. Whatever you are, you look great. But no, seriously, I wanted to sort of speak to what every one of my partners said. I'm not a great breeder. Okay. Um, Arcana is about love and respect for the plant. And when I looked at these guys and, you know, look, they all were doing much better before legal cannabis came around.

52:56SpeakerAnd legal cannabis has screwed almost everybody. Okay. And for me, it was how do you monetize that IP? And so Arcana is not just a genetics breeding company. We're a knowledge-based services company. We want to spread their knowledge so the fucking MSOs can actually grow a plant, you know? I mean, this is about sharing knowledge, okay? This is not just about breeding. It's about uplifting the plant in all aspects.

53:30SpeakerOkay, so when you see our website, you're going to see we're not just giving you the full actual genetic sequencing of every cultivar, we're giving you the medicinal genomics genetics report. Which triggers are where? We're not just doing a two-sentence breeders report. Oh, I crossed this with that and it's kind of gassy and this. No, we're giving a detailed breeders report and a detailed cultivator report. Excellent.

54:03SpeakerThe amazing thing about what we've been able to do at Ghost Town is we've created a facility where we're linking testing with breeding, which doesn't happen because of scale in the industry. Okay, so we are capable and committed to three cycles of testing of everything that we create. In outdoor, indoor, and mix light greenhouse, which we have all three facilities.

54:31Etienne FontanWell, how do you negotiate? Because most MSOs grow crap. So I understand the, you know, wanting to elevate their genetics, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be growing well. So do you guys consult on how to grow it better, not just the genetic?

54:48SpeakerExactly. Okay. So there are three divisions of Arcana. Our seed business, which is a genetics business, and it's direct to consumer, international and domestic. We have our nursery sciences, which, I mean, we don't know how long the loophole will exist, but right now you can ship clones, slips, anywhere in the country, completely legally. And, you know, Part of, part of what we're trying to do is cannabis has suffered from its prohibition in the science side.

55:25SpeakerOkay. And, and there's a lot of great work going on to catch up, you know, but, but now we, we want to bring that science in, make it so we can ship kitchen culture clones to anybody and anywhere, provide them with Great genetics, but from a trusted source. So it's going to be clean. I mean, the amount of resources that go into trying to keep a production facility clean genetically is dramatic.

55:56SpeakerOkay. So anyway, all these things are about these guys' knowledge of the plant, their love of the plant. And the best thing we can do is share that and the MSOs will just have to pay more. Absolutely.

56:12BubblemanSo tell me a little bit more about this facility that you guys have going on.

56:15SpeakerShane, you want to? Ghost, it's unfortunate that Ghost isn't on Marcus because he's an integral part of the team, obviously. Ghost is Cush Family Farms and had a wonderful facility up in Shelton, which is outside of Seattle and low cost of capital. Everything about it is just perfect. So we're operating that facility. That's what we've done. Go's part of a part of an important contribution to all of this is letting us operate that farm and upgrade it.

56:51SpeakerRight. So we've turned it. We have and we have all three environments up there. We've got a small outdoor ability that we can get one or two turns a year depending on the on the On the weather, but we've got a beautiful mixed light facility with new benches and everything in there. We've got three smaller indoor facilities, about 80 lights each, HPS. And then we've got 16 breeding rooms that were actually have built out so that each of the folks, each of the breeders can have a set of rooms.

57:28SpeakerAnd, and, At least when I think about it, like everybody is participating and put some foundational strains and genetics into the business. But but that's just a backbone, right? The the real The real beauty of all of this is not the foundational strains that the business has today. It's watching everybody collaborate and cross and breed in dedicated facilities so that you can create literally an evergreen set of varieties on a regular and systemic basis.

58:06SpeakerAnd We can test them in mixed light and in indoor and when the weather permits outdoor. And we have a consistency in the soil and the medium that we're using to grow in. And that's what that facility really is, right? You've got mixed light, outdoor, indoor, breeding rooms. And then... You know, the coup de grace, and I'm saying that very, very nicely, is we're building Kaya, a brand new hash lab there.

58:39SpeakerSo a lot of people know Kaya from, yeah, yeah, muscle up, best dad ever. We, we, you know, like, like a lot of folks on this call and folks that I've met, you know, all around and yet, you know, Kaya, and yes, I've taken his classes, but we, Kaya has relied on partnerships with third parties to be able to do that. So we're building him a beautiful state-of-the-art facility that, that we can, Allow him to have fun on the hash making side, but it also provides a campus for us as well too.

59:15SpeakerMichael's point, what everybody's saying about the collaboration, we really want to create sort of a center of excellence, a place that we can do some collaborations. And it's something that we can all be proud of that other people can visit and join us. So that's sort of the size of the facility and And the environments that we're offering and then the capabilities that we provided each of the members as breeders and Kaya as a hash maker.

59:42SpeakerDon't forget the TC lab. Cannabraider. Oh, yes. In the TC lab. How could I forget? Mike Hydro came in and did our TC lab. How could I forget that? Thank you, Kyle. Yes. Yes.

59:54BubblemanSo what level of tissue culture are you guys doing? Because that is an enormous amount of work. I didn't really understand just how much work it was until I understood that in order to create Thank you so much for joining us.

1:00:30BubblemanThere's a reason why Driscoll's, who does 10 billion tissue culture plantlets a year out of a small lab in Colorado, has one variety of strawberry. Because of, do you know what I mean? Like the, if they wanted to, it's same with like bananas and like all the things that we get.

1:00:52SpeakerOh, raspberries, blackberries. All of it. All of it. Across the board.

1:00:56BubblemanExactly. I got to work with Dr. Shma Sabayed. We used to work at JTR nurseries in Washington. He did hundreds and hundreds of thousands of tissue cultures for them. He was the one that actually figured out the dominant shoot medium for raspberries, for raspberries to go from multiplication, which, you know, is when it just grows like a, like a little bushel and all the different, you know, within 28 days, you need to get a six X or a five to seven X for, you know, for economic viability to be in place.

1:01:27BubblemanAnd then from there, you got to convince this plant that's now growing like a bush just through the medium to now grow with a dominant shoot. Because obviously, if you plant a bunch of those other ones into a field, they're just going to grow everywhere, not like the way you want them to grow. So I feel like cannabis has a real chance on changing the game in how...

1:01:48BubblemanYou know, like tissue culture for the most part is, I mean, it's it's incredible. It's like you can't not have it because just the initiation process alone, being able to clean out, you know, all that impregnated fungi and bacteria and virus through the initiation process allows you to supply Olympian athletes to the growers instead of, you know, sickly, sickly dying, You know, terminally ill plants that don't look it.

1:02:18BubblemanPeople are like, oh, I don't know. It's just like it just doesn't have the same vigor it used to have. It's like, yeah, no shit, bro. Like, holy shit. Like, got to clean that thing out. So I think tissue culture is super important, no doubt. But at the same time, it's overwhelming.

1:02:34SpeakerWell, we, we brought in Mike Hydro and he's, you know, I don't know that there's anybody out there that's, that's better, especially in the weed world and the way that we're going to be using the TC lab. Um, it's, it's not for any kind of like super production really. It's, it's about storing things, getting things clean so that we can then put them out. Yeah, exactly. And, um, I'll say this too.

1:02:57SpeakerUm, and I know friend ghost isn't here. Uh, I'm down at that facility going on three years now. And, um, His library is very old and he's got some really special stuff in there, but he's taking care of it very well. And he doesn't bring in a lot of stuff from the outside world. Like in the last six months, eight months, just because of this arcana thing, we've brought in more genetics in the last eight months than he's probably brought in in the last 10 years.

1:03:23SpeakerSo our stuff has been very isolated and well taken care of. But yeah, the way that we're using the TC lab is going to be probably a little different than most people. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, I mean, Shane has some really old stock seeds that, you know, I have to have to be, you know, they have to be saved. And, you know, that's a great opportunity.

1:03:48SpeakerI mean, a lot of a lot of what we're doing is funneling the genetic pool, you know, fems only. Everything's got to be a particular flavor or color. We want to keep the pool broader. You know, we would do anything we can to broaden it. We want to pull anything in that, you know, is sitting in those archives and fucking see what we can do with it.

1:04:12SpeakerI mean, eventually the science will be easier in terms of how that's done. Now, it's actually, it's a bit of a numbers game. Yeah. And we've set up a facility to generate over a thousand strains a year for selection. You know, we have great fights about, you know, these guys say, oh, our selections, at least 40% of them will be incredible. Okay, you know, but that opportunity, that's really what scale for a breeding organization can do.

1:04:50SpeakerAnd then to follow through with the testing of it and to take real responsibility, that's a new thought, you know. I think I'm most excited about the seed rescue because I've got some older seeds. I mean, Cam has blessed us with some crazy shit that I'm just like, I think about it all the time, but we can't get to it quite yet. But when we do, I mean, the stuff that we can pull out of the NBO Rescue, I think is really going to be, I don't know, that's what I'm most excited about, I think.

1:05:19Collin PalmerSo guys, so Michael, you know, you're using Canopedia, using Brandon and Kevin McKernan's service over there at Sound. So are you using that to just not only catalog, but are you also using the genetic marker assist breeding capabilities that they have? Are you guys looking into that as well?

1:05:38SpeakerShane?

1:05:41SpeakerAbsolutely. That's the future, right? It's, it's not just, you know, it's, it's identifying the underlying genetics inside there. Look at the markers, see, you know, like, well, let's find these resilient fucking strains out there. You know, what, what is it, what are, what, what, what's causing, you know, this plant to be affected by this, what's causing prevent, preventing the infection on this planet. It's, you know, it's, it's whether we're chasing, you know, um, You know, terpenes to cannabinoids, anything else, it's all by identifying markers, right?

1:06:12SpeakerAnd that's really where the science comes into play. And I think one of the biggest challenges in this industry, especially if you're having But I spent a lot of time in MSOs, you know, running big, large scale farms here in the past eight years is R&D. R&D is like the scariest word. Like nobody wants to do R&D. Everybody wants hot new strains, but very few people, you know, very few of these operations are allocating space to do research and to find new genetics or to do these discoveries.

1:06:43SpeakerI mean, in mainstream cannabis, you know, it's like we're, one of my big frustrations right here is about potency, for example. It's like, well, if that strain doesn't hit 25 plus, we can't have it at the farm. Well, then why am I popping all my old seeds at this farm? Why do you want me to bring in special genetics? And if you want special genetics and something different, we have to look here too.

1:07:04SpeakerWe can't just look in all this modern stuff and, you know, I'm in cherry gelato and blah, blah. It's not about that. It's like, let's try to be different. Right. So, yeah, no, I think what you're highlighting is,

1:07:17Collin PalmerMakes sense for, you know, a lot of reasons. I mean, some of the favorite things that I look for in attributes of the plant or in flower, just dry-cared flower, is lower THC because I know there's a limit to what those cultivars can push out. Is it high terpene value or is it high cannabinoid value? And to your point, high terpene value is way more interesting from a taste perspective.

1:07:41Collin PalmerSo... That's really cool. Yeah, Kevin's, you know, really grown with their abilities. I mean, even the ability to test the root zone, to look at the nutrient values and understand the rhizosphere a little bit more, tied back to your breeding practices, you know. You know, root zone temperatures and things like that to optimize for terpene production, et cetera. You know, it's I can't wait to see what you guys do.

1:08:08BubblemanSo that's a very good point, Colin. And it was leading into the question. I was right about to kind of ask the whole lot of them, which is, you know, in the future when you're doing your selections, What is it that you're looking for? Like, are you looking for things along the line of novel cannabinoids? Are you looking for novel terpenes and terpenoids? Are you focused on thiols and thiolates?

1:08:33BubblemanIf so, how are you perceiving those? Like what scientific does, you know, cause I know that the only people I've ever heard and Ian didn't get too much into it from abstract, but Nick Ziegler prior who came in and first spoke about files to us talked about the analytics team and how they had to put a multitude of pieces of equipment together to create this ability to even perceive these things in the first place.

1:08:58BubblemanIt would make sense if you were looking for novel flavor profiles, terpenes like Selena dying there from Huckleberry Farms and the White Thorn Rose, what you would probably want to breed lower All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

1:09:24BubblemanWe're going to talk a little bit about what

1:09:42SpeakerYou know, are we making a purple strain? Are we chasing a rare cannabinoid, right? So those are always going to dictate what you're selecting in your projects. So that's the foundational part. You know, what is that goal? We're creating a strain. And sometimes we do, you know, people just create strains and then we're just going to grow them out and we're just finding something that's completely unique in those outliers, right?

1:10:06SpeakerThat's traditionally what people are doing, right? But when we could start applying science, coming back to markers and, you know, spending money to, a lot of money to do, get a lot of COAs on multiple phenols from different batches. I mean, that's really where that value and where you can really make or quantify those decisions and choices. One thing I love about this group is, you know, there's a lot of good selections out there.

1:10:33SpeakerBut really, we only, there's only so much space. So we can only keep that very, very, very best of the best. You know, it's just because one or two of us think it might be the best. No, it's got to be the best of the best, right? And it's just, it's got to check all those boxes, anything that moves forward, or it's got to have that distinctive special attribute that we are seeking.

1:10:56SpeakerYou know, is it a high varian varietal or something like that, that we're chasing, right? Like those types of goals. That's what it's always about. You always got to have goals here in operating. We have meetings every week. We have a couple of meetings, actually. And one of the meetings is a breeder-specific meeting. And we're discussing different lines that we want to breed and why we want to breed them.

1:11:19SpeakerWe're talking about doing a blueberry project, as an example. Different stuff for hash. And all of those are going to require different stock to play with. So that's kind of how we're designing these breeding programs. And in the beginning, the first stuff, it was like, hey, what do we got right now that we can throw in? Let's just get something started. And as we get further down the line, these breeding ideas will manifest into line bred projects that go down different routes.

1:11:51SpeakerNow, having said that, when we finished our first test run of the genetics that we had bred, and we also did like R&D where we all piled in a whole bunch of stuff that we were excited about. I had some seeds from Hawaii. Josh sent some seeds out. We popped those. We also had kind of a room of all that R&D stuff. And just walking through there, you know, Marcus, as I was listening to you describe the process there, and we have to use these computers to find certain thiols and blah, blah, blah.

1:12:20SpeakerFor me, like this computer right here is like the most important one, right? Our old sensory, our old factory, that's the most crucial part, right? And having people on this team like Shane, Thank you for joining us.

1:12:57SpeakerAnd you know, yeah, that's unique, but that's going to taste terrible. I've encountered that before, you know, so that that computer system that's on board and with us in the room is like the first one that it's got to pass the test. And then the most important. Yeah. And then beyond that, you know, You can map this stuff out and then see if those qualities match up with the trait.

1:13:19SpeakerAnd then that gives us a tool for narrowing selections or opening selections up. Well, and that's what the DNA sequencing that we're doing, Kaya, will help us do too. So part of what we're doing is getting our We would like to get all of them eventually, but starting with getting DNA sequencing around the foundational strains that we have. This is not these are not easy reports to just, you know, look at and say, OK, I've got that right.

1:13:46SpeakerSo we have a true plant scientist. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to start off by looking at these with us. And then you can look at the traits that are provided in those reports. You can start to see how some strains are actually cousins of each other by some of the profile that's created. And we begin to think about the breeding that we want based on the, you know, the data that we have from the DNA sequencing.

1:14:09SpeakerAnd then for what it's worth, you asked a good question. Colin asked a question too.

1:14:17SpeakerWatch some of these and participate in these. And it's a pleasure to meet you. I've always appreciated when you've spoken or the conversation you bring up, and today's no exception. But you guys are asking, so how are we going to do that? I think part of that is the collaborative nature. I think so many times in the legal side of the industry, what screwed it up is people became very protectionist, right?

1:14:41SpeakerThe beautiful thing of what you've created here, Marcus, is an open platform people are sharing. But this competitive world around We're just, you know, there's six breeders and eight of us together, but

1:15:06SpeakerWe're by no means, you know, the input and the collaboration from others, the information. So we can't tell you today we're going to do A, B, and C and that's what we're going to breed for because the market's going to shift too. I got to tell you from the other side of it all is this is a very, and now I'm talking, I've run an awful lot of retail in a lot of places and that consumer out there is pretty darn fickle these days too.

1:15:29SpeakerAnd there's a younger consumer that has very different tastes. I mean, I'm, Shit, I've been smoking weed for 50 years. I'm 66 years old. It's a different market out there for folks that are under the age of 35 or 30 and are consuming a lot of weed. So I think it's a fun little experiment. That's what I find exciting as well too, right? You're sort of moving along here.

1:15:49SpeakerWe're watching this industry, whatever cannabis is, well, it's been around for thousands of years, but whatever this legal market is in 25, 30, 50 years is happening now. And we're just all on this journey together, but we're listening as well, too, guys. We're listening.

1:16:05BubblemanWell, I will say, be careful asking that question. What does the market want? Okay, let me ask you in common, all right? It's just like floor sweepings, distillate, botanical terpenes is what I want, and I want a lot of it.

1:16:22SpeakerIt's like... It's the education process. Well, you're also... I'm sorry. Marcus, I just want to... Go back to the genetic breeding and that. We're not at the point where we can use CRISPR to just write out whatever we want this fucking plant to be, okay? The knowledge isn't there yet. We're building it. We've taken on advisors. But the remarkable thing is I've listened to these gentlemen, and I use the term loosely, for two years, and they will talk about The TK cut that they have, you know, from 97, and they will describe it identically.

1:17:08SpeakerI mean, their knowledge of the plant is mind-blowing. And that's the best breeding resource we have today. And we're trying to inform it as fast as we can about how to do it more efficiently. But in the meantime, what we've set up is a facility to actually do it on a thousand strains a year.

1:17:33BubblemanYeah, that's a lot. And taking what these guys have, because Kaya's right, the olfactory, there's nothing more important. But it needs to be validated for the customer who isn't the expert from 1992, who hasn't been growing for the 30 years. It needs to be validated. We can't just say it smells like burnt tires with a bit of fuel with some. It has to be validated and accurate.

1:17:58BubblemanAnd once we get to that, the more we can validate those things. And I don't care about percentages of cannabinoids. I want to know what's there in the profile in regards to volatile organic compounds, because for me. The future of the cannabis industry that I suspect we want to be a part of, because let's just say there's many different marketplaces in this. And, you know, Listen, for 10 years, we've been going on about how we just need to educate this.

1:18:26BubblemanAnd it was Debbie Goldsberry who came in one time very like kindly and gently was like, listen, I've been selling like legal cannabis for 20 plus years in California. And it's still to this day, everyone wants to buy the cheapest, highest THC. It's been the same since we've been selling. It's like, listen, this is the majority of people Thank you so much for joining us.

1:19:04SpeakerYes, you can buy $5,000 pounds in LA.

1:19:08BubblemanExactly. Yeah, you can. Oh my goodness. Listen, that's what got us all sending that shit down there in the first place up here in British Columbia. We're just selling our pounds for $1,500 Canadian and someone's like, you know, you can get $5,000 for that down in San Francisco, eh? Oh, no, we didn't actually, but geez, I guess we'll just have to walk it across. People were walking it across the border up here.

1:19:30BubblemanYou guys turned BC into a crazy thing for a short period there. I had no part in that at all.

1:19:37SpeakerHoly shit.

1:19:39Etienne FontanOh, my God. Well, you're also challenged because you're dealing with a much more educated consumer base than what we had 20 years ago, right? Right.

1:19:48SpeakerExactly.

1:19:49Etienne FontanYou know you're you're talking people who have really tried everything that's out there commercially right so you're challenged against the established versus you know the new so you know how do you decide on what's your next beast you're going to try to control or create right because you've got all these different Flavors and profiles. So how do you narrow it down with all the thousands of spectrum out there?

1:20:20Etienne FontanHow do you guys then select this is going to be this, then we're going to go with this? Because it has to be, you know, each one of you has your own unique profiles, your genetics that you've bred along, that you've brought along, right? So, you know, how do you as a collective, because I've been in collectives, you know, around and you get the feather, but, you know, how do you decide that?

1:20:43Etienne FontanFairly and equally among you, what direction you're going to go?

1:20:47SpeakerIt's a big one. I'm not going to. What I would say is that we've tried not to narrow the selection. OK, so by building sixteen hundred and twenty square foot breeding rooms where we can put two male donors and 15 pairs of

1:21:12Speakerrecipients we can breed the fuck out of the plant and we do it with intention it's not it's not random but in order to in order to to achieve that that's that's the only way you can do it until the technology gets you know way beyond where we are

1:21:35Collin PalmerSo you have 16 rooms that you individually can spread across, let's say, different categories, just for the sake of the conversation.

1:21:45SpeakerWe can take that, we can take that banana oatmeal and cross it with 15 different varieties, everything from this candy to every gas you want and see what we got.

1:21:57Collin PalmerSo there is no, so what I'm hearing, just for the listeners here, so what I'm hearing, there is no bottlenecking, really. It's just more exploratory, which has been awesome because that's, you know, we're all of us. If you've been growing cannabis long enough, that's where you really come from. And you can keep that spirit kind of front and center, which is super, that's like the most important thing.

1:22:17Collin PalmerYou know, when people talk about the heyday of genetics, I think, you know, which was that 89 through 98 period,

1:22:26Collin PalmerI think that's why is because there was so much exploratory work going down at that time, right? So that's amazing. So they're really Marcus. I mean, I'm hearing there's like zero bottleneck. I mean, you can put chems in there. You can put, you know, you're.

1:22:41BubblemanWell, the only place I would see a bottleneck is once you have 16 rooms with 14 different varieties getting slapped by 16 different. It's a lot. Holy shit, dude. A lot to manage.

1:22:52SpeakerYou just created like 20 years of work. And plus, Marcus, we also have the ability to test indoor, outdoor, and greenhouse. Right. Find where it shines. We will not release a new genetic without three cycles of testing.

1:23:06Collin PalmerThat's great. Excellent. It's like literally unheard of. You know, I've... I've heard a lot, but not, this is really detailed to the point where, you know, I've talked to Kevin McKern a lot about this, where I even used to go to, you know, I used to go to Beverly and Medicinal Genomics and talk about why no one's willing to do the work. You know, like, why? Like, I don't understand it.

1:23:28Collin PalmerLike, there's so much money being poured into the industry, but no one's willing to fix the inherent problems which stem from genetics.

1:23:35SpeakerLike, let's be real. So that's amazing. You guys are doing that.

1:23:41SpeakerThe thing we have going for us is that the only way these idiots can differentiate themselves at this point is genetics. They all grow the same crappy stale weed, you know, and they need to differentiate themselves. And this is, we can give them a continuous stream of strains. Right. Right. We can get MSO branded strains. We're going to have so many goddamn strains and they'll all be quality.

1:24:09SpeakerYou know, these guys, that's what they do.

1:24:12Collin PalmerSo when you guys are going through selection, you know, this is for the group over here, you know, when you guys are going to, I don't know if you guys have done this or not, maybe you haven't, maybe you're going to, but when you're going through outdoor, indoor, and mixed light, are there attributes that you're looking for from the actual, like, for a commercialization point of view?

1:24:31Collin PalmerAre you looking at BRAX? Are you looking at leaf to calic ratios? Yeah. Is there more, is there a blend of, you know, we're looking for these terpene values and plant performance values? What does that look like?

1:24:47SpeakerI was going to say the other questions, like it's kind of easy or the way that our process works. This part is the hardest one because some of us are like, I don't give a fuck what it looks like. If it makes good hash, we'll keep it right. And the other one's like, no, it's got to look good. Or, you know, there's got to be size to it.

1:25:02SpeakerBut the idea is. We'll create strains at the same time for those different markets. So what the MSOs are going to want, it's going to have to have a timeline to it, right? So it's got to be an eight week or probably, and it's going to have to have a certain morphology. Whereas what home growers want They don't, they don't care that much, you know, or a hash maker really doesn't care what the plant looks like, but how it returns hash.

1:25:29SpeakerSo we're trying to hit multiple targets. And that's why we've got, you know, the multiple breeding bays allows us to shoot at those targets at the same time.

1:25:41BubblemanSo when it comes to the MSOs, I would guess, you know, if I was you guys, I'd be sitting there going, all right, like, listen, we cannot create something complicated for these guys. This has to be like easy to grow so that they can actually get it to shine. Like, how do you breed genetics for MSOs, people who are notoriously bad at growing cannabis? And really what that means is they're bad at getting cannabis To express herself to that top.

1:26:13SpeakerThe world is changing. The world is changing. So today, GTI, Verano, Pharmacan, Columbia Care, Cannabis, Vario, they're all growing in living soil. And I'm teaching them how to fucking grow better. OK, and getting them good genetics. And, you know, hey, I've They will be, they will be very wise to, to take advantage of the incredible knowledge base that, that, that these, these guys have, you know? And so that's my, my goal.

1:26:48SpeakerMy goal is yes. My goal is to create a, an awareness of, of. The plant as we know it and have grown up with it, you know, and the quality of it, but it's also to improve the quality that the market that's buying 35% THC and candy, you know, help them, you know, understand there are alternatives and how they can relate to the plant the way these guys do.

1:27:22Collin PalmerWell, let's hope that you can change it, you know, because it seems like it's a broken system, you know, like the percentages, you know.

1:27:31SpeakerAnd it's really meaningless, right, because there is no standard. So that whole thing has just really got to get thrown out, in my opinion. I don't know what place it really serves. It's like... How is this weed going to make me feel? You don't know until you consume it because everybody's body is different. Everybody's biochemistry is different. So we really have to get away from these like generalizations.

1:27:57SpeakerAnd while I have the mic, I got to go back, Marcus, when you were talking about like when you pop and make these many crosses. Sorry. When you make these many crosses. You know, how do you hunt them all? And I'm telling you, it's a lot of fucking work. We are in there. I'm in there personally scouting. For eight hours a day, like going through when we put them all in and flip them, it's like all hands on deck and we're in there scouting and looking and, you know, pulling the boys out and checking things.

1:28:26SpeakerAnd it never stops because you when you're running from seed, you don't have something that's proven. So you can't go, OK, week three, we're good. We don't have to scout anymore. You're still scouting. So it's a lot of extra work, a lot of extra eyes. We're training people how to do it, which is kind of fun. We've got a couple of the Pisces in there that are just like knocking it out and becoming great scouters.

1:28:50SpeakerBut it's a lot of work and we have a lot of space. So we can put, I think, up to 2,000 plants in the greenhouse at any given time. We're a little bit lower than that right now, but, you know, we're getting after it. You got to love to do it. And there's a lot of waste. Nobody's doing this, Colin, because there's so much waste.

1:29:09BubblemanI love how close you guys are to... Yeah, I get it, but... Me. I'm like five hours away.

1:29:17SpeakerYeah. We'll get you down here.

1:29:21BubblemanYeah, well, I got to get my waiver. I've been waiting for about 11 months now since I handed that in to the whoever it is, the Homeland Security or whatnot. But hopefully they get me my waiver, man. I my waiver is because I got caught with point zero one of a gram of like a roach paper that was in like a jean jacket pocket. And so that was like 30 something years ago.

1:29:47BubblemanIt was like 18 years old. So they were like, oh, don't worry about it. You'll get it. They're not, it'll be fine. I'm like, all right, well, listen, I just want to go down there and smoke all my friends hash.

1:29:59SpeakerYeah, I, listen, I lived up really close to that border in college and I would go back and forth a lot and they would stop me. I feel like I'm on a list, but they would always ask two questions. They would ask, how's, how's, uh, how's Mark? Mark Emery, of course. And then they'd ask, you know, how's Bubble Man? You know, because they're assuming we were going up there to see you guys for whatever reason.

1:30:21SpeakerAnd we never had anything in our cars except like magazines and maybe something we picked up at the Blunt Brothers or whatever. But yeah, they were always asking about you guys. It was really weird.

1:30:33BubblemanThat is not good. Thank you for watching.

1:30:51BubblemanCompletely illegal back then, yet it just didn't matter because, you know, it was back to that authenticity gene. It's kind of like a disease, in my opinion. It's like, you know, the difference between someone who wants to clean their house and someone who has to clean their house because they suffer from the disease. I think we all suffer from the disease of like having to have good cannabis.

1:31:15BubblemanIt's it can't be escaped. It cannot be escaped.

1:31:22SpeakerDr. D is sick and he's not growing.

1:31:26BubblemanAbsolutely.

1:31:27Collin PalmerSo, I have a question for the group here.

1:31:29SpeakerCan I go back to, yeah, Colin, man, like, I want to go back to the connection between THC percentage and other Terps, you know? And, like, I noticed that throughout, you know, my, I guess, time growing and, like, getting things tested, and I'm like, wow, I'm seeing higher THC numbers sometimes in different markets. It's really hard to tell, though, if they're skewed by, The motivation of a testing company to try to get your business.

1:31:52SpeakerI mean, all these things, you know, we could dig into how it's not really legitimate testing. It's not consistent testing. If I send the same batch to two different labs, I get two different results and stuff. But in general, I get a higher TAT percentage and I have noticed a lower TURP percentage. So like you're Your correlation between the ratio of these things and Matt's potential, like an expression of a plant can have, I feel like that they do overlap and rob each other of these things, right?

1:32:21SpeakerAbsolutely. Yeah. And so, like, I can do a deal... We only have so much energy, you know? You know, there's only so much potential energy, right, that can go into these different cannabinoids. So... I have, like, I want to, like, we're purposely breeding things too. We're not just in there like, hey, let's mix everything up and then we'll go back and back into it and then make selections from it.

1:32:43SpeakerLike, I'm purposely trying to find an OG that washes, you know, like 3% or something reasonable. um where you know because i love smoking hash i mean we all love smoking hash everybody out here uh very rare to find an og that washes okay um and i've partnered with other you know collaborated with other hash makers over the years and really tried to nail this down and i haven't been able to um personally i breed myself for my brand but i'm pretty small time compared to this um scale so you know exciting to me is Those two different, I guess, goals, which is one, finding a really good hashing OG that I'd say you could pull around 65 days or something maybe earlier.

1:33:33SpeakerObviously, I want to see high terps. I want to see 5% terps. I know people are like, oh, 5%. Yeah, I've seen 5% terps at OG, and it's outstanding. And I don't care what the THC is either. None of us do. I mean, These things don't really ever translate into the high or the effect I'm getting from THC. It's always these other elements.

1:33:57Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat THC level kind of correlates with is trichome density, right? And those two things should basically be at the same level, right? So your trichome density and your overall terpene content is going to track, right? And unfortunately, again, in the... Thank you for joining us.

1:34:42Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you so much for joining us.

1:34:59Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's an add-on to a gas chromatograph, which costs a whole lot more money, and there's not a whole lot of testing labs doing it. There are some. I think if we get Alec on here again, I think SC is doing it because they got together with their Phytofax to put a gas score together. And the gas score was some computational algorithm applied to those can of sulfur compounds that were found.

1:35:29Dr Mark ScialdoneBut yeah, in general, Josh, when you're looking at THC content, it should parallel terpene content. And that's basically, yeah, a measure of tricone density, how potent the plant... How many trikes you got on your plant material?

1:35:43BubblemanYou know, I love that SC Labs has done the, you know, has this Phytofax, and I'm not sure if Napro. Gascore. Yeah, it's a super cool thing, but it also shows like, because it was the majority of all the testing done in California, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:36:16BubblemanAll of these are volatile organic compounds. And how you'll know that you have them is exactly how Kaya said it with this. That's what Johnny kept saying. He's like, no, there's something else here, dude. I'm telling you, there's something else here. And so they went and they tested and tested, and they discovered this dominant terpene was selenadiene, which is super novel and not the case for any other genetics.

1:36:43BubblemanThat anyone's really ever shown. So to me, the future of breeding for the connoisseur is the future of novel, volatile, organic compounds. These amazing compounds that, and I don't think it's only going to be terpenes because although the thiols and thiolates are fleeting, like Mark said, volatile and very, very like Thank you for joining us.

1:37:22Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you. Thank you.

1:37:40Dr Mark ScialdoneI it's it's seeing the forest through the trees you know we've talked about it on Hash Church the equivalent of representing a orchestral piece of music by a string quartet or something smaller than an 88 piece orchestra is never going to sound as full-bodied as the orchestra itself because there's four violins there's not just one violin right there's four cellos right so there's All that background information, which is, yeah, the thiols and these other compounds are kind of buried in.

1:38:13Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat's the other compound, the shit compound? Scalpel, right?

1:38:17Collin PalmerScalpel, yeah. But the other thing I think is worth mentioning is like, I've gone through this even over the last year in New York, is like, there's three different standards of testing. Depending on which lab you go with, they have one of the three. And the instrumentation that goes along with that is also different. So to your point, Josh, when you send something in and then furthermore, are they plating it to look for aspergillus to actually grow from a, you know, from a bacterial point of view?

1:38:46Collin PalmerAll of that is to be questioned and to be seen lab to lab, you know, and that's a real issue because we all have different, we all are under the same expectation from a state system or regulatory body But you go, depending on which door you take, you get a different end result. So that's a real issue, I think, from an analytical point of view. I wish we could just say, hey, we're going to do these five things together and everyone just follows it market to market, just from a state testing point of view, just so we can all agree to something.

1:39:22Collin PalmerBut yeah, I see different values from terpenes to cannabinoids all the time. I see lower cannabinoids with really high terpene values. I see high cannabinoids with really low terpene values in reverse. So it's tough, you know what I mean, is what I'm getting at.

1:39:39SpeakerColin, you guys are so smart. It's not just, I mean, I think you're just too informed. There's another aspect of it, which is what my partner, who's a Cornell soil scientist, calls fucking with the plant.

1:39:58Collin PalmerYeah, go for it.

1:39:59SpeakerPlease tell me more. That ratio of terpenes and cannabinoids are also a function of what stresses you put the plant under. Absolutely. I'm not a plant steerer, but I believe in dry stressing. I believe dry stress absolutely is a great trigger of secondary metabolites. You can't dry stress plants in rock wool or straight commodity cocoa or, you know, a media that releases water like real soil does, you know.

1:40:29SpeakerSo anyway, we look at it in our soil company from the standpoint of expression. And so what we find is that a living soil will give you a greater breadth All of these guys, they're cultivating knowledge and they're breeding knowledge. It is just an opportunity.

1:41:06Collin PalmerSo on the 365 side, are your, you know, blends, maybe you can, you have a better word for it. Are you specializing that for the stages of life or are you leaving it in one bed? How's that work with you? Okay, so...

1:41:27SpeakerAnd this is not a Bio365 commercial, but... No, no, I'm not trying to...

1:41:31Collin PalmerI just want to understand. I just think it's really great to be able to tie this together with what you guys are using.

1:41:36SpeakerWhat my partner did that really changed the game, okay, is, you know, the plants evolved with biology in their rhizosphere, okay? I'm not going to give a living soil fucking, you know, program here, but basically, plant in control... The farmer in control is firing for range, okay? The plant in control is firing for effect. If the plant can say to the soil what it needs and get that from the soil, it will express itself better.

1:42:07SpeakerJust end a game. That's it's a deal, okay? And the problem has always been in a manufactured engineered substrate, how do you anchor to biology, right? And so my partner, we have 10 patents behind this wonderful shit. My partner basically, Figured out a way to anchor the biology and biochar, which also gives the soil a water release curve like real soil. Okay. So, I mean, you, you can take a three gallon container and, and dry it back for four or five days.

1:42:40Collin PalmerOkay. So is this a soil less material that you're then charging with?

1:42:45SpeakerIt's Quar and Peat and we use, we use Crunch. Okay. Perlite, Perlite holds air. But it doesn't hold any water. Okay. Crunch, which is a tube, holds air and water. Okay. Okay. So we manage the basically What isn't solid is space for your roots, okay? So we manage the amount of solids in our substrates to half of anybody else's. We can get bigger roots in a two-gallon container than some compost-based media or a peat-based media get in a five-gallon container.

1:43:28SpeakerUnderstood. And we've engineered our business to meet the market. We handle all, GTI, Verano, Pharmac, we get them all, okay? But that's an economic proposition, okay? Because we've shown them, you know, how they can get better performance and do it in smaller containers. And we were the first people ever to deliver the soil in grow bags. I was doing a study with Tecanolum back in like 2016, you know, and our soil in a three gallon container was costing them $2.30.

1:44:03SpeakerThe pot was costing $4.

1:44:07SpeakerEvery time they touch the pot, it costs them 50 cents to fill it, to empty it, to sterilize it. I mean, they pay more for the pot than they were for my soil, which was like the whole, you know.

1:44:18Collin PalmerSo you're solving for like a few different things. You're solving for touch points, and you're also solving for the ability for the plants to have more room to grow bigger, right?

1:44:29SpeakerNo, it's all about biomimicry. It's biomimicry, whether it's the biology anchored in our media, Um, or, or whether it's our water release curve or whether the amount of air we supply. Got it. You know, it, it, my partner was a genius. He's a real asshole, but he's a genius. And, uh, and, and, you know, I, I,

1:44:57SpeakerIt was the best cultivators, you know, it was Greg, you know, it was Shane, you know, who like took this one and went, oh, wow, this is different, you know, and they just took off with it.

1:45:10Collin PalmerSo you guys use this at scale, obviously, Greg, like you've used it in mass, right? And you're like, or wherever else even.

1:45:17SpeakerI've been using it in our legal facility in mass for the last six, seven years now. Yes, it's awesome. Awesome, man. And I actually went from three gallons to back. I went from three gallon grow bags to two gallon grow bags. Because what Michael was saying, I'm still pumping the same amount of weed I was, saving a lot more money in the touch points. You know, you tear the bags, it's like boom, boom, boom.

1:45:38SpeakerAnd it helps HLV. You don't deal with that shit. You're throwing out your pots. You're not washing pots. Right.

1:45:44Collin PalmerSo for comparison, you know, I'm familiar with the Cocoa Core where you water it and it grows, you know, it gets bigger.

1:45:49SpeakerI've never used Cocoa Core in my life, so I can't even touch it.

1:45:52Collin PalmerSo it's different than that though, right?

1:45:56SpeakerColin, I soiled the liver hydrated.

1:45:59Collin PalmerRight. That's what I'm trying to understand so the listener can understand how different it is. Because it's very common to use cocoa like that, right? And have it do the chia pet, right? Yes. But this sounds like it comes pre-hydrated. They're already in its own bag, so you're just ripping the top and then planting, right? Ripping and fluffing. Yeah, fluff it up, rip it, and transplant it.

1:46:17SpeakerRipping root, as we say. But something else really important, okay? Okay. Our factory is completely Sally ported. Sally porting is basically there's an inner factory and outer walls of the factory. And when the outer walls of the factory are open, the inner factory has to be closed. And when the inner factory doors are open, the outer factory doors have to be closed. We use positive air pressure.

1:46:42SpeakerWe use nematodes and hypoaces mites in our production. Super cool.

1:46:47Collin PalmerWow. Okay.

1:46:49SpeakerThis is the cleanest, most consistent soil. I mean, Shane's run maybe a thousand rounds with it and never had a bad bag. You know, I mean, you know, and that's what, you know, In controlled environment agriculture, how can you make your soil not in a controlled environment with front loaders and compost heaps? And the cool thing is what my partner really figured out was compost is an aerobic process.

1:47:20SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:47:36SpeakerWhat he did was he patented a process where we produce our biocharge, which is our activated and aged biologically active base in a HEPA filtered air pressure controlled clean space. And we don't use any unprocessed manures in any of our nutrient packages. And we're able to create a media that is a true living soil, but it's cleaner and more consistent than anything you can get in any commodity space, period.

1:48:07Collin PalmerSo just, okay, so I'm hearing that you have an inert substance that you've turned into... Through patents and, you know, through a lot of R&D into a medium that you can turn into a really robust living soil environment.

1:48:21SpeakerIs that correct? We take biochar and wide spectrum biology that we culture ourselves and organic nutrients and a carbon source, which is a little bit acquire. And we put that 30 to 45 day activation and aging process.

1:48:39Collin PalmerMm hmm. So it's pre-aged before it goes out, right? Our beef is mixed in, right?

1:48:45SpeakerAnd the nutrients are processed. They're bioavailable. There's no plant shock in transplanting with the soil. We use it at the farm, Colin, and it's really cool because when you're testing, right, like if you were to be running some kind of program, You know, different plants need different things. Well, when we're testing with this, it's plant driven. So we're really just stay out of the way. We're just giving it water for the most part.

1:49:14BubblemanI love Michael's passion, though. I really love his passion behind the bio three, six, sixes. And this is basically the journey, Michael, of this passion of this, you know, hooking up with your partner, the asshole-genius or genius-asshole, either way. Probably call him a genius person.

1:49:29SpeakerI should say that because I'm going to throw this to him. But, um,

1:49:32BubblemanWell, hey, I can be an asshole sometimes. That's okay. Like, the smarter you are sometimes, the more isolated you get from, like, the rest of the world.

1:49:39SpeakerI've been incredibly lucky, okay? I mean, I got into data communications and software when I was still in college, was writing Atari video games while I was in college, and retired at 30. And I did the only sane thing possible. I went on tour for 10 years. And I've been blessed and very lucky. And in my life now, I won't do anything unless it matters, unless it's going to make a difference.

1:50:12SpeakerAnd the one thing that for me ties bio and Arcana together is that they're both an opportunity to make a difference and have an impact. And that's worthy. How profitable they'll be is not as important as whether they'll have an impact.

1:50:31BubblemanAnd I love it. 10 years. That was your whole, the whole Grateful Dead experience. What I can remember. What I can remember. And how'd you kind of luck into that? You're just like, I'll just go buy some tickets, get some miracles.

1:50:42SpeakerSo I get lucky. I retired 30 and I moved back to California from Manhattan. And I'd gone to undergraduate school in Southern California, Pomona. And I, you know, came out to California to follow the Grateful Dead around. And And I moved back to California in 85 to Mill Valley. And my best friend growing up in Cleveland moved out there the same month. And we both had our first child, first children two months later.

1:51:12SpeakerAnd he calls me one day. He says, you want to play flag football league? I said, sure, I'd love to. He says, great. I got a team. You know, it's a great league. You know, we've got a team in it. I went, oh, shit. And I was, you know, I was in a position where I didn't have to work. I had the time to go out with them.

1:51:30SpeakerYou know, we became close friends. He was my best man. I was his. And, you know, it was like fantasy camp, you know. And the music was not always inspiring, but the community was.

1:51:51SpeakerThat's awesome.

1:51:53BubblemanLove to hear that. Absolutely cool. Welcome to Fletch, who popped into the room. He always likes to pop into the room.

1:52:01Archive SeedsWhat's up, Fletcher? What's up, Fletch? Hey, what's going on, guys? The doctor. Just growing plants. Same old thing. Mm-hmm. I missed some of the conversation earlier, though, so I'm not sure where everyone's at or what we're talking about.

1:52:18BubblemanI haven't even really got into the questions. I had a ton of questions for each of these guys, kind of more about their history. But we've been really talking about Arcana, the kind of, you know, the energy behind it with with Andrew and Michael and how they were kind of led to. Thank you so much for joining us. We're so happy to be here. We're so happy to be here.

1:52:37BubblemanWe're so happy to be here. We're so happy to be here.

1:53:00BubblemanSo yeah, we just kind of been talking about that and the, you know, the direction that they're going in and a little bit about what they're doing and, you know, the fact that they're not so far away that I can actually come visit when I get my waiver on my way to see you. Come down the West Coast and check it all out. It's cool to, yeah, it's cool that these guys came together and, you know, Decided to share with us.

1:53:30BubblemanBut, you know, why did you have anything in particular you wanted to bring up? Or should we get into some of these questions for these guys? Because I have quite a few of them.

1:53:39Archive SeedsWell, I think we I think we can get into the questions. I think another thing that with this group of people that people may find interest in is this group's opinion on the relation between chem and OG, if there even is one, and the similarities or differences that You know, we've each experienced growing all these plants. There's always been a lot of contention that, oh, one made the other or not.

1:54:06Archive SeedsAnd a lot of us maybe don't necessarily agree it's that closely related. But this is a great group to have that discussion as well. But we can go on to questions, too. That may be something we can get into later.

1:54:17SpeakerI'll step in on that one quick thought. I don't think one made the other, dude, but I definitely think they're related.

1:54:25Archive SeedsTotally that like I'm saying everybody has their own opinion that you know in my opinion I would agree there's probably some sort of familial relation going back to whatever land race area that these plants came from simply because of the similar terpene profile maybe but there's obviously like like I think we can all agree a pretty significant difference between Chem 91 and OG just as pure in their pure forms there's definitely some differences there.

1:54:57Speaker100%. I mean, when I was smoking the Chem in 92, it was definitely tasting very, very close to the OG back in that day. And then it did definitely drifted over the years for sure. When's the first time you tried it, Fletch?

1:55:13Archive SeedsProbably 2005.

1:55:15SpeakerYeah, by then it was washed down, honestly. Not the D, but the 91 is definitely... Yeah, 2005 would be the first time I tried all the chems for the month of March. Yeah, I kind of stopped growing the Chem 91 in like 99, 2000 and kind of moved on from it a little bit just because it was drift. It drifted pretty quickly. It was weird. And I didn't really think much of it, you know, and I'm not sure, you know, but we're going to get that back.

1:55:37SpeakerWe're going to try.

1:55:39Archive SeedsYeah. Well, I think something that's interesting maybe on the drift conversation. So I think most of us can probably agree that there isn't actually like genetic drift, meaning that the genetics have changed, right? Like if you breed with Chem 91 today, it should theoretically put out the same results as it did from breeding. I think the thing that a lot of people... Maybe overlook is age of plants and then the plant's ability to produce certain hormones and growth traits that maybe it once did when it was young.

1:56:13Archive SeedsAnd I think we've seen that with a lot of cuts that have been held for a long time that they don't seem to perform the same, but it's obviously the same plant. And if you grow it really, really well, We'll see you next time.

1:56:44SpeakerLook at Sour Diesel.

1:56:46Archive SeedsSour is not what it was in the early 2000s straight up. I still think there's people that can grow it to that level. It's just, I just don't think you ever see people really getting batches out like that. And even still, like when I first got the Sour Diesel clone, I kind of made fun of it because it was the one in 10. One in 10 batches was really that impressive.

1:57:08Archive SeedsAnd the other nine were just kind of like, eh, it's good, but it didn't have the smell and the flavor to it that it did when you really nailed the plant and really gave it what it wanted. And I think that's true for a lot of varieties that... There's a pretty significant difference between growing it to a 9.5 versus growing it to a 7. There's a really big difference to us connoisseurs between a 7 and a 9.5, but your average person, that difference may be not as discernible to them.

1:57:40BubblemanI think another sort of wrench to throw into that, you know, drifting, non-drifting, you know, I've always thought of it more like a probably contaminated plant over time. I like your idea there as well, Fletch, that it could just be an older plant. But if it's impregnated with viral bacteria and all these things, fungi... It's not going to express itself as well. So this would be a question for Chemdog, which is very much on par to what Fletch was just talking about.

1:58:10BubblemanAnd it speaks about the other aspect of how cultivars are changed in the public space. And that is about how the legal market has and can dilute So many cultivars through renaming and misrepresentation, right? Chem lines included. So my question is what frustrates you most about how consumers encounter chem today versus the originals? And how is Arcana's pack program empowering breeders like you to reclaim that narrative?

1:58:42SpeakerThere's a lot of, especially in the market in Massachusetts, a lot of guys will slap on names just to sell stuff. It's sad. And it also comes to stem with a lot of the clones going around are mislabeled too. Not just flowers, a lot of people are renaming clones. Tonnets, people are saying they still have the mass super skunk. It's really pretty much gone. And every time I get someone saying that, it's the snow dog.

1:59:08SpeakerIt's not the super skunk. So it's like there's so many, I feel people are doing it with flour and cuts, you know, and they're just kind of coining their own little, The Pack Program is great because it's going to help us. Andy can get into it. I'd rather have Andy get into the whole Pack Program. Yeah, he can answer that part of the question for sure. You can answer that.

1:59:27SpeakerBut I feel that there's definitely a lot of people slapping names on stuff. Especially in our mass market, there's people selling chems that aren't even chem. It's frustrating.

1:59:38BubblemanThis is the aspect of the olfactory, right? It's like, yes, it's okay for you guys to have it, but for the public... It has to be validated. It has to be like, this is what this is.

2:00:04BubblemanThank you for joining us.

2:00:28SpeakerBut that's why we want to do it. That's why. So like the first things that we've had, the first varietals that we've had DNA sequenced by medicinal genomics are chem stuff for precisely the conversation that we're having. We're not interested in running around and getting into disputes with people. But if you want chem, right, we can show you what the profile of that strain really is, right, at its DNA level.

2:00:57SpeakerAnd by the way, to some of the conversations we've been having, if you want to have Chem help you grow it in your environment, right, we can do that too. The PAC is kind of tied to that. PAC is permission, acknowledgement, compensation. What we just want to do there, so many people, and Chem's a very good example, took a genetic, they say they have it, maybe they rename it, or they just take it from each other.

2:01:21SpeakerThat's not cool. Like, that's not our business. That's not our game. If we are going to Leverage our own stuff. That's fine. If we're leveraging and want to get into business and sell a genetic that's owned by somebody else, then we want to get permission to do that. And we want to acknowledge that person as well, too. We want to compensate that person for that as well, too, because that hasn't happened in the industry.

2:01:48SpeakerPart of what we're trying to do is just correct some of the things that went wrong, particularly over the last 10 years as the legal market just erupted, right, and things went sideways. Because the people on this call don't do that to each other. They just don't. But in Chem, again, you ask that question around Chem because he may be the quintessential example of his stuff being out there in the market.

2:02:12SpeakerEverybody says they got it. They just don't.

2:02:14BubblemanWell, that's what I'm saying, right? It's not just about like, oh, it doesn't express itself anymore the same way. But I do know where Fletch is coming from as well. I've seen cultivars that do that very thing or that when are grown by a particular person, they just seem like a completely different plant because of how amazing they are. They're grown. Not everyone has that capability.

2:02:37SpeakerYeah. Marcus, the Chem D is a good example. My Chem D, I started in 2000. That's still 25 years later, still pretty much the same as it was in 2000. I mean, I'm still, we're still getting high testing from it. It's still ferocious. It's awesome. So I don't feel that drifted one bit. It's weird, you know? No, I don't want to use the word drift. Just what I'm trying to say about it.

2:02:57SpeakerYou know, lost.

2:02:58Collin PalmerAs of the chem lines, what, what, Greg? You know, do you believe is still alive out of all the seeds that you've popped? What do you believe? Do you believe the whole ChemSys and, you know, we know Chem4 is around.

2:03:13SpeakerI have the Chem91 still. I have the ChemSys. I have the Chem4. I have the Jizzle. I have the Snow Dog. I have all my strains except... The Mass Super Skunk, which everybody claims that they have and they send me one and it's a fucking snow dog. Besides that, I don't have, I don't, we're not missing anything really. You know, I want to throw one. That's pretty rare, man.

2:03:36Collin PalmerYou know what I mean? Most breeders, people can't, most people can't say that. You know what I mean? That's really cool. 25 years removed, you know?

2:03:42SpeakerYeah, I mean, the chem's been around for 33 years, 34 years, August in the 91. You know, Chem D was started in 2000. That's 25 years. Yeah, that's that. That's pretty much the backbone of GMO because you ain't tasting no Girl Scout. He's in GMO. You're tasting straight. That's a garlic. That's those terms. Yeah, that's the growth of the of the of the GM.

2:04:03BubblemanThose are files.

2:04:05SpeakerWhat?

2:04:05BubblemanThat garlic is a file. Yeah.

2:04:08SpeakerYeah, that's that you'll see that. Yeah. So I don't know. We have pretty much I still have all the same stuff. But one thing I want to throw out there, the Chem 91 and you hear Chemdog, Chem 91 and Skunk VA cut. It's all the same cut. There's no different Skunk VA cut and Chemdog 91 are not two different cuts. I just coined his cut the Skunk VA cut because he was rolling with my good friend Ben, IC Collective.

2:04:33SpeakerThey were very good friends and he was growing with Ben. And I said, if Jay had, if you get a cut from Jay, then you have the real, then you have the Chem 91 scope. So he, we just coined that the skunk, you know, skunk VA cut. So that's all it is. So when people say they have a skunk VA cut, it's funny because you see these breeders and they post seeds and they post made with skunk VA cut.

2:04:53SpeakerAnd then the same breeder puts made with the Chem 91. Well, you're made, you made the same cross with the same cut. They're both, it's one thing, you know. I just wanted that to be clear right now, you know.

2:05:02BubblemanIt's definitely the biggest nightmare of the cannabis era. Kind of scene. And it speaks volumes to our necessity to own and create and have to have something be our own. This obsession with like, no, it's mine. It's mine. I named that. I made it. I did this. I did that. And then people just like get obsessed with that. And they're like just renaming cultivars like crazy. MSO Classic is to just rename a cultivar.

2:05:28BubblemanIn fact, they'll grow a ton of something and not be able to sell it and be like, let's rename that and we'll sell it under a different name. And then brag about how their marketing teams figured out like, all we had to do was change the name and it sold like hotcakes. It's like, oh my God.

2:05:43SpeakerI saw it the other day. I saw someone was showing me they have runs in their store and it was called Italian Soda.

2:05:49BubblemanAnd did it have the word premium anywhere on the packaging?

2:05:52SpeakerYes, premium indoor flower. Oh, fuck. These people from, it was, you know, from Vermont. It was called Italian Soda. It was like, oh yeah, it's just a runce. And I'm like, oh.

2:06:03BubblemanI think premium is the, I think premium is the word.

2:06:06SpeakerYeah, you go ahead, Michael, please. I mean, look, the PAC program, you know, I was blown away that all these giants who, you know, created these foundational strains and advanced the plant, you know, were just getting screwed by legal cannabis. I mean, you know, Shane, who was running, you know, one of the biggest cultivations, scale cultivations in California and growing great shit, was getting paid less than the executive assistant to the president, you know.

2:06:41SpeakerAnd the idea that People should be rewarded in line with their contribution was at, you know, at the, at the root of my life, this industry is just upside down.

2:06:53BubblemanYeah, that's it. That's an alien. Well, you know, they don't they call it. It's funny because what they call it is culture. They're like, you have to get in line with our culture. You know, this is it's like, well, guess what? Actually, we have our own culture that we're bringing to the table. And it sounds like you guys are very much in a place of wanting to sort of cultivate and facilitate culture.

2:07:14BubblemanThe natural born culture versus the forced corporate douche nozzle culture, which is the one that pays the executive president's assistant more than the main grower.

2:07:26SpeakerIt's finance driven, you know, companies and get rich quick entrepreneurs that would actually create a fucking Delta 8 industry? I mean, what the hell?

2:07:40Etienne FontanDoesn't anybody care about the consumer? Well, nobody cares about their contributions, right? You know, and so how do you, I mean, as people who have worked for quality, I think those are something that we've all strived for, not only just, you know, good, you want quality, right? Because, you know, um, It's missing so much, especially with the MSOs. You've seen it time and time again. Maybe they have one good run a year, tops, and they live off that reputation, off of that.

2:08:15Etienne FontanSo how do y'all, since nobody does care about contributions and I mean, I do. I mean, what you've all each individually contributed is, I mean, I'm looking at a kind of a super friends, you know, grouping of, you know, individuals coming together, you know, kind of like Voltron to make something bigger and better that, you know, everybody goes to. But, you know, in a world where nobody cares about contributions, you know, how do you keep your integrity?

2:08:49SpeakerHow do you not? That's the values that we're trying to sustain in the culture, okay? Not all the values of the illegal cannabis industry were admirable. It was an illegal industry, you know, shit went down, but there were a whole other set of values of community and sharing that are missing today and that we want to bring back As part of what we're doing, bringing back a better understanding of quality, educating the market.

2:09:26SpeakerI mean, there's a number of things that we think need to be done and it's not going to happen overnight. This is, you know, this is going to be, you know, a 10, 20 year project. You know, we have to be realiztic. When we started this venture, we thought we were going to come out with the best fucking flower and rosin in the world and have the best brand.

2:09:46SpeakerAnd I kept looking at going, no, no, there is no premium channel in the legal dispensary market. And the cost of getting it and building it is is prohibitive. You know, we can't do that, you know. And so we look at other ways that we could make a difference and improve the quality in general by sharing these guys incredible depth of knowledge about the plant. And giving the industry a source of super quality genetics that are totally trusted and clean.

2:10:19SpeakerAnd don't put 15% of your resources into quarantining your plants and testing and testing and testing and testing. Cannabis is one of the only plants that's commercially cultivated that doesn't have a nursery industry that provides a healthy, you know, All of that is a thriving plant to the finisher, right?

2:10:42BubblemanImagine having to do that with like the 4,000 different genetics that people would want.

2:10:48Archive SeedsI think, can I clarify one thing with the marketing stuff? You know, one thing that I think is important to keep in mind in the cannabis marketing, essentially what happened is the high times era and Amsterdam's influence on genetics, that was the original marketing culture, basically, right? And that's very similar to the corporate cannabis culture that you have today. Then there was the entire underground scene. And like Greg was saying, the Skunk VA Chem 91, they're the same clone.

2:11:20Archive SeedsBut literally, it was 20 years ago. We didn't even know who Greg was. Nobody knew who he was. It was just this legendary clone. And essentially, people's names got added to clones just to designate where it came from when we were trying to figure out what everything even is or even if things are the same. And that kind of got hijacked by the corporate marketing thing. And that's why you have all these mislabeled cuts being grown everywhere.

2:11:49Archive SeedsAnd people relabeling stuff is just to take advantage of the provenance. It wasn't really ever used as a marketing thing because 20 years ago, all weeds sold. It didn't really matter a whole lot what grower's name got attached to it. And so we've just kind of had that entire thing hijacked by the marketing engine on the corporate and financial side of cannabis.

2:12:19BubblemanHey, you're not wrong for sure. I wanted to get back to a question for Josh in regards to the Ghost Town facility. So you're now collaborating in a space designed for measured science-backed breeding. So how has working with tools like DNA Sequency changed the way you approach pheno hunting compared to your underground days? And has it uncovered any surprising traits in OG Kush lineages that you maybe didn't anticipate?

2:12:50SpeakerYou know what? This is something that we're going into fresh right now. So for us right now, we've just been building out the foundation of the facility and game planning. And, you know, we, we literally spoke for a year about strategy and things that we had collectively had as a vision and what our, um,

2:13:18SpeakerAll of these more, I guess, data-driven type of processes hasn't exactly happened yet. We're still in the initial phases of getting everything together. This is something we will come across soon enough. But right now we're just doing like the initial breeding after we've been building out the facility up to the standard that we need to, you know, accomplish all these kind of things that we want to do this year.

2:13:48BubblemanAnd so are you guys all going to be like in Like spending time in Washington, are you?

2:13:54SpeakerYeah, absolutely. We have a really sweet house up there right down the street from the farm. We all go up there and spend time participating in the process. Some of us are there every day, like Ghost, Kaya, Shane's up there quite a bit. And I think the harvest season this year pulled people away. But for the most part, we spend time up there together. More probably now focused on the end of this next harvest and then doing, you know, sitting down and smoking together and then really just, you know, we all live all over the country as well.

2:14:32SpeakerSo we all have, you know, that's a good question because we all have some other things going on. It would be really cool if we all moved up there. But my, you know, what's possible is us coming up at key moments so that we can, you know, Do a, you know, our game planning and, um, our selection process and these other things are just falling into place now.

2:14:54SpeakerBeautiful. Yeah. Yeah. We, we recently sent out, I don't know, maybe it was a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month now. Um, we should actually have the results back already. Um, some of the genetic screening tests, uh, just, or is it, is it genetic? Andy, help me out here. The ones we sent out, that's the genetic testing, right? To, to mapping. Sorry. Mapping is a word is.

2:15:15SpeakerTook that big dab. The mapping stuff coming back on. And we're starting with the foundational strains. So we'll do the chems and the OGs and then kind of work through. I mean, our library is already in the hundreds and hundreds of plants. So it's going to take us some time to get everything through that process.

2:15:35BubblemanI'm sure. Well, you've been doing it for a while, dude. You've seen cannabis evolve from underground to overproduced. What's kind of one 90s lesson on staying in your lane that Arcana embodies, especially in, you know, avoiding the dilution of cultivars like yours through, you know, maybe mass cloning or, you know, improper cloning?

2:15:58SpeakerYou know, we we've really taken our time and identified what plants that we will not share with anybody, what plants we will share in what capacity with different streams and how to roll those out. So there's a lot of thought to it. You know, remember my, my dad was a, was a game foul breeder and you could never get his original breed stock, right? Like you, you could only get the crosses.

2:16:24SpeakerSo we're, we're going to be very intentional about how we roll that stuff out and share it because you can't overshare and you can't, you can't put things out too quickly. Brad Griffith, Um, or be in a rush to do things because then your quality might suffer or, you know, you put something out and then find out later. Hey, that wasn't as stable as we thought. So, you know, just taking your time and doing it right.

2:16:46SpeakerBrad Griffith, Which again, To kind of go back to what Colin was saying, there's not a lot of people doing it because it's pretty expensive and there's a lot of waste. So, you know, having Michael's support and partnering with Bio 365, that's been very helpful in cutting waste. And then we can also recycle that soil in my little side hippie project that I'm doing for the outdoor stuff.

2:17:08SpeakerSo, You know, being lean, being efficient. How can a guy make any money in the soil business with people who want to reuse his soil over and over again? Oh, Jesus. We're going to ban regenerative from the lexicon. No, it is. What else are you going to do with it, right? It's great that you can't do that with rock wool, right? So you can reuse this stuff and repurpose it and get new results.

2:17:39SpeakerAnyways, I hope I answered your question. Michael, if it makes you feel any better, Michael, what we do is compost it, and then I have the guy across the street come with his bucket loader and grab it and grab it and take it, and he reuses it, but I keep buying soil from you, so I keep it. You go. Is he paying you? He's just getting rid of it.

2:18:00SpeakerHe just comes with his bucket and his dump truck and gets rid of it, so that's all. It's an eat win for win. You know, we've designed... Recycling systems where you would take your used soil, recompost it in a container that sort of moved continuously through. But it's so tough to engineer the air and water porosity. Once you've used that media, it just keeps breaking down and getting denser and denser.

2:18:32SpeakerAnd that's why raised beds, they go anaerobic.

2:18:38SpeakerIt's really hard. It's a challenge. It makes sense. I spent 20 years as chairman of Rainforest Action Network, and I think waste is not just terrible, but this is a resource that actually can grow more plants. But we have to figure out a way to make it work economically. Marcus, if you'll indulge me, I wanted to throw... Josh D, a softball question. Please. Because I've been kind of the guy tending the nursery with Sonny.

2:19:15SpeakerSonny's like one of the, he's probably done more nursery stuff than anybody on earth with ganja. But as I'm in there and I'm touching all these incredible plants that have such historic meaning and, you know, like these are the ones, you know. And I've got all these different OGs lined up. And PK and TK and Josh made one of the dopest breeding chambers selections. Josh, if you want to just talk a little bit kind of about those strains and your experience with them, because I, you know, I haven't even heard all of the stories on them.

2:19:51SpeakerAnd it seems like you've really touched those for quite a while. So can you give us some some juice on that?

2:19:56BubblemanRight as he's twisting one up. Oh, yeah.

2:20:00SpeakerYou're like, I breed for hash mostly and he's like, he's got the smoke shit down, so.

2:20:06BubblemanDude, I haven't rolled a joint in like 25 years. Is that a crime? Here you go.

2:20:10Etienne FontanI wish I could just ask you.

2:20:12BubblemanSomeone gave me this bud of please wash me.

2:20:15Etienne FontanI still love you. You didn't roll.

2:20:21SpeakerI'm smoking some Trap Jesus OG right now and headband mixed together. Which smells like Afghani. I haven't smelled that Afghani in so long. It was one of the original things when I was in my early 20s that really just blew my mind. But yeah, I mean, we have... So these breeding chambers we have are really cool. The way that we're approaching it, I think will evolve. But right now, you know, I wanted to see how...

2:20:53SpeakerNot only did my OGs perform in there, but some of this stuff, how it reversed, we're doing a lot of reversals and you know how that can be. It's kind of exploratory to see what kind of pollen output we get. And so I'm using right now in my breeding chamber, for example, I'm reversing a variety called Orion. Orion OG is just, it's a renamed original OG cut that I gifted my cousin probably like 16, 17 years ago now.

2:21:26SpeakerAnd then he gave it back to me. He calls it Club 33. I'm not exactly sure. If, because we talk about this a lot, I've heard Fletcher talk about this, that Oregon Kid did a bunch of reversal work in the early 2000s and these other really closely related selections came out of OG that sort of made their way through. I don't know if that's what it is, but it's different enough that I kept it in my stable.

2:21:54SpeakerIt's just got a better structure overall. Just kind of like a healthier, easier plant to grow slightly, slightly. Like the original OG, everybody knows it's a pain in the ass. It can be a pain in the ass on you. It can look fantastic and go in left field real quick. It's not exactly the greatest thing for production. It's more of like a love affair that you have to have to really like kind of grow OG all the time.

2:22:22SpeakerAnd to manage its success, it's just, it's a difficult plant. And, you know, so anyways, we've decided to reverse the Orion in my room. And it's really cool. We all like sit there and try to like game plan and strategize what we're doing in each room. But we have the freedom to do our own type of kind of vision. And so I have the pure kush out there.

2:22:48SpeakerI have a Triangle Kush and I have basically a selection from the Karma collab that we did, the Josh D OG, which is TK to SFV to Hells Angels OG. And there's like some other stuff in there I want to kind of keep under wrap. But anyways, like, you know, this is where we are with the project. I feel like... I've never had this freedom to do this, and I've always wanted to, man.

2:23:16SpeakerThis is like, even 10 years ago, Mark, on this show, after the show, you got on the phone with me, and you said, man, you need to make seeds. You need to get these genetics out there. And that really stuck with me, man, over the years. And it really just... I tried to do it on my own, but it's always a space issue. Anybody that breeds that's really trying to do selections mindfully and correctly knows how much energy can go into just the space usage.

2:23:48SpeakerAnd I just never had that kind of freedom to do what I'm doing right now. So this has been a dream of mine for over, you know, 20 years and especially in the last decade where I've been doing this myself on my own and now we're doing it together collectively and I'm able to work with strains like Chem D and these other, you know, kind of like outstanding varieties that maybe haven't hit the market yet.

2:24:12SpeakerBut yeah, that's where we're at with it.

2:24:16BubblemanI love that your dream is Arcana's mantra, together we can do more.

2:24:24SpeakerWell, dude, I mean, come on, I'm limited in a lot of ways. And, you know, like utilizing Ghost Town, really, when we say Ghost Town, Ghost Town is a farm. It's a licensed farm in Washington. It has a square footage and it has the personnel that have been trained over this last 10 years of rec weed to know how to manage this space correctly. The greenhouse just got an uplift and it has concrete with rolling benches and all the bells and whistles.

2:24:51SpeakerAnd it's fucking amazing. Like we all walk in there like, yeah, I mean, 14 different tables right now, 14 different varieties with all these different phenos from each variety and new potential, you know, just so much potential out there.

2:25:05BubblemanIs it all secret under wraps or is there like little clips or video or photos that you guys want to show of the facility or maybe another time?

2:25:14SpeakerI'm going to leave that question to... No, I don't think it's... I'm happy to share some stuff. We're putting all that out right now, but no, there's no... There's, you know, the stuff that's going on in an individual member's breeding room, I leave that to them, what they share, and Josh has shared a lot. But no, we're going to be happy to show photos, and we put some posts up there.

2:25:35SpeakerI mean, we need a little bit more work on our social media, Marcus, but it's coming along. But no, we're happy to share photos and stuff.

2:25:43BubblemanOkay, cool. Yeah, because here's, here's one that you shared with me. Yes. That's, that's frosty.

2:25:53SpeakerWell, we've got Shane has been doing a good job of creating an archive of photography for us. And we've got What are we looking at? There you go.

2:26:05BubblemanThese were sent to me by their team, so I'm not sure exactly what is what. Jane, what is that? That's Pinkleberry. I know that.

2:26:17SpeakerHow did that get here? Shane, which one is that? The first one right there is our Rudy. So it's the XXX, the Rude Dog by the Banana OG DX3 right there. All right. I mean, you're, you know, you're asking about, you're talking about how we select things for like back to MSO. So, you know, we're all traditional guys here, but there is a little bit of that.

2:26:44SpeakerWell, that's one cool thing I guess I was able to, I bring to the table here, having over eight years of experience running, you know, things like Harborside and Lowe, stuff like that. I, you know, being a greenhouse grower, I really know exactly what I'm looking for, that flower shape. I know what's expected on the inside track at some of these programs, for example. You know, one of the first things I, in a greenhouse, I'm like, oh, banana OG.

2:27:07SpeakerI like banana OG, but she's not the best greenhouse plant. One cool thing, I love the bananas that we're working with. I always like to call it the approved bananas because it's everything I was looking for as a greenhouse grower. It has the structure and things like that too. So some of the stuff that we're breeding and we have coming down, it's, Pretty exciting because it's checking all the boxes and as, you know, from that little perspective on the inside of being, you know, a 50 weeks, 56 day cycle farm, right?

2:27:37SpeakerAnd like, does it, is that plant going to perform in a green house? Is it going to finish and things like that? When I saw, you know, exactly what we were working with and really started becoming familiar with some of the, what I call improved banana there, it's, the structure is amazing. So it's, there's some really cool stuff that's going down and it's, It's cool to be able to not just use my traditional senses, but use a lot of these other skill sets that I've developed.

2:28:04SpeakerThat last picture there was the Banana Inferno. What is it? Disco Inferno. That's the Dante's crossed with the Banana BX3.

2:28:13BubblemanThis one?

2:28:14SpeakerYeah, that's our... Disco Fever.

2:28:19SpeakerThe Otani Cut, Disco Fever. Yeah, that's it. That's the Otani Cut. That's our number 17, The Keeper. Dude, it looks killer. It's trike the fuck out, but it's loud too. And smoke's really good. And the hash returns were looking very promising.

2:28:35BubblemanVery nice. Yeah, I... It looks very much like this bud of Please Wash Me I have. I don't know what the breakdown on Please Wash Me is, but this is super dense. It smells like garlic, like just straight onion garlic funk. And it's super fucking dense. But I was going to look at it and see if it's got anything.

2:29:03BubblemanIt's a keeper. Please wash me. I will. Don't worry. Don't worry, little guy.

2:29:11BubblemanI ain't gonna smoke ya, but I will wash you.

2:29:15Archive SeedsI think one thing that's really cool about this collective and trying to put the ownership of the brands in the hands of the people is I think one thing that's been lost in this whole legalization is that these brands were created around people and they were created around those people's sacrifice during the war on drugs. And so when someone is stealing that That value and using it for themselves, to me, it's like the equivalent of stolen valor.

2:29:50BubblemanIt's stolen valor, dude.

2:29:53Archive SeedsBecause it's basically like, you know, if you're sitting here going, trying to use someone else's brand name, their story, a cut that's associated with them that they actually took the risk to keep alive and make it. What it is, the person that's just like, oh, I'm just going to rename this cut and fuck up their brand name. It's what would be trademark infringement in the real world if you could trademark your brand names.

2:30:19Archive SeedsAnd then it's also stolen valor because you're trying to steal the value that was created from someone through their personal risks.

2:30:27BubblemanFrom specific people.

2:30:29Archive SeedsSo it's like, it's offensive as someone that grew weed. Drug war veterans. During the war, war on drugs.

2:30:36Etienne FontanAs a combat veteran, I would say I will allow it. I think he is absolutely correct. Well, it's another war, right? I think it's a stolen power thing, man, because I've been both and I've seen people, you know, directly, you know, lie and, you know... You know, just outright. And unfortunately, because it's been so open source for so many decades that, you know, it's allowed that misinformation to not only take hold, but to fester.

2:31:09Etienne FontanRight. And so we have all had to debunk misinformation because there's more of that out there than there is proper information. Right. And especially in this misinformation world.

2:31:22Archive SeedsYeah. And it's not that people aren't allowed to be wrong about the cut or this or that. But there's a lot of circumstances where you can actually say someone was doing it maliciously. They knew they were doing it wrongly and they did it anyways because of the value that it sustained for them. And so, you know, 20 years ago, it's like nobody even knew, like we weren't using the brand names to try to help sell anything.

2:31:47Archive SeedsIt was just for reference in a garden. That was it. I got five different chem cuts. Well, I got to put some sort of designation on them, a checkmark, a star. Kim, who it came from, whatever. But once that became a marketing tool, you know, it becomes, you know, like I was saying, something where I think it's it's it's offensive to the person that actually sacrificed for that.

2:32:13SpeakerYou're right. You're absolutely right. And, you know, we we're trying to bring that authenticity. We're trying to bring those values. You know, so I got my Chad degree at Harvard Business School and and they teach you about marketing that, you know, branding is not about your product at all. It's about your customer identifying with a set of values, you know, and and. That's what we're trying to do.

2:32:48SpeakerWe're trying to bring those values back in the brand. I was chairman of Rainforest Action Network for 20 years, and we used to attack corporations and their brand value, because among those values, blood-sucking scumbag doesn't work real well. We're attacking from the other side. You know, we're attacking from the high side, so to speak.

2:33:19BubblemanI like it. That's the right side. That's definitely the side that we all flourish on for sure. I love it. You know, like I think the cannabis world, because I hate saying industry and it's not just a community, but the cannabis world, it could use some of this right now. And it's not that I have been I'm not jaded and I'm not bitter because I'm a lifer.

2:33:43BubblemanI'll be doing this till I die. This is what I'm doing. I'm not going to change. I'm not going to ever stop. It doesn't matter what banner I do it under, what company, what it's just, I'm always going to do this. And so that allows me to look at it with a very specific, you know, like legal cannabis in Canada hasn't been a huge success. Not overly, the biggest success is that it's super accessible.

2:34:11BubblemanLike just thousands of stores across Canada. We never really had massive crime or sorry, massive jail time for cannabis. Although I do, one of my mentors did serve a six year and a five year. So for a total of 11 years, he served in prison for being a habitual florist in Canada, teaching people about growing weeds. So it does happen. For me, the legalization of cannabis or the accessibility of cannabis, with it came the dropping off of 10-year mandatory minimum sentences for cannabis.

2:34:48BubblemanAnd so that was kind of the best thing that we got out of the sort of pseudo legal cannabis. There's all sorts of things we could complain about. But from the perspective of a Canadian who was never really serving that kind of time and getting messages from different people over the years, friends and customers and whatnot, who had been like, oh, I got busted. I just wanted to let you know I'm going away for a while.

2:35:11BubblemanAnd to us, it was just surreal. Like, what do you mean you're going away for a while? It's like, oh, I got five years. It's like. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:35:30BubblemanIs a much bigger group now. And it's, it's diluted our group like so much, right? The cores. And I see you guys as being like the sort of OG, you know, core group of people that are going to keep something alive that may not seem super important today to the masses who are just like, I just want like a THCP vape pen from the gas station. Like I'm just getting some of them Delta eight gummies or whatever.

2:35:59BubblemanLike, You know, the people that don't necessarily care. I see cannabis as a way, particularly the route that you guys are taking, and I feel the route that I've taken as well, that we can do better. We can use it as a vehicle to bring people to a higher level of decision making, of thinking about things, a deeper level, not higher, a deeper level of thinking about these things, a conscious level, which I feel like, Thank you so much for joining us.

2:36:48BubblemanFor this amazing reason, and I'll tell you something. Years ago, I asked Wendy Turner, who was the mother of Colton Turner, Who was the boy that drowned in the lake in Indiana and then got an infection in his lung. They brought him back. He got this infection and something happened where he ended up with Crohn's disease. And then he had this long journey of being very young.

2:37:11BubblemanHe was the one that had to like hold up the picture of the dark black, like dying colon. And then underneath that, he's holding up a fresh, clean colon. And it says, I would rather be illegally alive than legally dead. And so he had to move to Colorado with his family because it wasn't allowed in Indiana. But Wendy said, I said, what do you think about all these, you know, old hippie dudes and kind of OG dudes that have been like holding on to these cannabis genetics and growing them for all these years back when it was super illegal?

2:37:44BubblemanBecause she's like super like, you know, like... Apple Pie, American Mom, like just, but the most amazing person. And of course, her answer was beautiful. She just said, Oh, my goodness, Marcus, God bless them all. I thank each and every one of them for holding on to these, these different cultivars, you know, strains, she probably said, these different strains. And I just I thank them all, all of the You know, from the Grateful Dead hippies to the underground growers.

2:38:15BubblemanAnd I thought, how cool and full circle is that to have this woman, Have this full circle experience with cannabis saving her son's life and then being able to look, you know, any other pathway she took, she may not have looked at us as in that same light. People that were growing in the 80s and 90s, keeping it alive, touring around with the Grateful Dead and sharing flour with, you know, on these different tours.

2:38:41BubblemanIt's just such a cool thing to be a part of. And yeah, I'm sure that you guys realize how lucky you are as well, especially to now be sort of You know, I think of Adam Bowen's song that he wrote about. He wrote it about Mark Emery, actually, but he talked about how, you know, where Mark would pick up the fingers of activism and to make a fist against.

2:39:07BubblemanIt's really cool lyrics, but you guys are kind of like that fist. Of OG cannabis growers with all these incredible genetics. I'll tell you the first time I ever met Chaya, not only did he give me a gram of his full melt bubble hash, but he also gave me one of the last boxes, beautiful wooden box with like a red wax sealed coffee seeds. And I still have those brother in the fucking vault.

2:39:37BubblemanLet me tell you.

2:39:40SpeakerAdam Boyd, good marketing, good marketing.

2:39:43BubblemanYeah, I'm telling you. I love to I love what everyone does with seeds. I love keeping genetics alive. I love the idea of finding novel, unique things. I don't pretend to know what the right way to breed is versus the wrong way. I know that there's probably a correlation between When we only focus on how much we can get and how fast we can get it, the prohibition laws that we used to grow cannabis under, the unsaid rules of cannabis, even though in 1994 or 5, I for sure was growing like a 17-week haze in Manitoba, the Bible Belt, where you would definitely go to prison.

2:40:26BubblemanIf you got caught growing weed, but it was far and few between. I feel like that's part of the haze lore and the haze legend are people that go back far enough that chose to grow a cultivar that took more than twice as long as the short flowering cultivars. It was like being on a motorcycle on the road when you see someone, you're like, hey dude, I see you on your motorcycle.

2:40:52BubblemanHaze people are like that. We're like, I see you.

2:40:57SpeakerThat's Fuji.

2:40:59BubblemanWhat's that?

2:41:00SpeakerThat's Fuji. That's Fuji, right? So talk about that, Fuji. Those long season cultivars, they just take forever, but there's magic at the end of the tunnel, you know?

2:41:12BubblemanDude, magic, bro. I'm telling you. So you're my people.

2:41:17SpeakerYeah. I love growing shit that fucking I can't keep indoors. It grows through the roof. I know you go, you take a fucking rooted cut, just rooted and you flower and you still goes past our lights and you got to bend it and break it or, you know, train it. So, yeah, there's something about those sativas. It's just. You know, the longer it takes to do stuff, usually, you know, in life, the end outcome is a little bit more.

2:41:51SpeakerSo that's that's sort of, you know, the mentality on that.

2:41:56Etienne FontanWhat is your uh what is your trellising involved or that has become your favorite because the problem I had first thing I grew in 89 was um Durban Poison and that shot straight through my closet and uh you know I've always ever since then uh because I live in an urban area and others have as well You know, do you do the stringing at the tip, bring it to the side to be below fence line?

2:42:25Etienne FontanI mean, just curious.

2:42:28SpeakerIdeally, I would create a little PVC netting trellising thing and weave the top from the outsides and kind of circle it inwards. So, but I never really get to do that. It's always in a, what do you call it? A tomato cage. And then I'll have to, you know, take a six foot, seven foot stake and try to keep the tops from flopping over and, you know, doing its thing.

2:43:03BubblemanGod bless those floppy tops.

2:43:09BubblemanFor those of you that don't know, my son, my firstborn son, my eldest son, his middle name is Hayes.

2:43:18SpeakerBetter than Floppy Top.

2:43:20BubblemanI'll tell you, it was close. We almost called him Floppy Top.

2:43:26SpeakerMark, Marcus right now, um, in our facility in Massachusetts, I actually, I have pretty good rain on what I can do there. So I'm actually growing some pith and some rainbow dragon fruit. And they're around 10 weeks out right now. We're doing them indoors. And the mom's like, Fuji was saying, I have this PVC, uh, Thank you for joining us.

2:44:11SpeakerPanama Red. I don't know what that's crazy shit, but it looks awesome. And it's got that nice non-lemon-y haze turps, which I'm not really a big fan of lemon haze turps. I'm more of the frankincense, piffy, incense-y turps and like NL5 haze turps basically. But these things are awesome. But we do that in the mass market sometimes because people do love it, honestly. So listen, we don't have the authority to do that.

2:44:34SpeakerI actually am very grateful. I have great operator owners that are great that allow me to do that kind of stuff there. So that's kind of cool too.

2:44:42BubblemanA sativa room is definitely going to upset the CFO of that company. There's no doubt about it.

2:44:48SpeakerNot our company. That's what's good about it.

2:44:50BubblemanThat's awesome. He's the one, right? He's the one that smokes sativa. So he's like, listen, we're going to have to do a sativa room, boys. Economically, it makes no sense, but... That's for the people too, you know, we want to give them some good medicine out there also, you know. No, no, absolutely. Listen, speaking of sativa rooms, this room right here, which you can kind of see, it's got the old school ballasts.

2:45:12BubblemanThis is a room that my friend had had 18 foot ceilings. I'm actually on a zip line in this room behind me in this picture that I'm pointing to. I'm on a zip line and I'm floating over. They're about like maybe six to eight foot tall sativas, the whole room. And it was probably the greatest experience I ever had in the world of cannabis. Was my friend building this zip line basically for us, for me and him, and I knew it was for me and him because he created this sock that when you hooked up the thing that you sat in, the little piece that took you out as well as up, down and up, there was little controls on the chest piece.

2:45:57BubblemanThere was this big bag and I'm like, dude, what's this big bag for? And he's like, Well, for the roor, this guy was like an old dude, but he only puffed like two to three foot glass roors. So we were basically taking roor bong rips and he was of the school of Skunk Man Sam. So back from a very old time, he understood how to make like a full melt dry sift, a dry sift that like melts into a liquid.

2:46:23BubblemanAnd on his the whole purpose of the story has a has a meaning. He had a plaque on the outside of his door. He's passed away now. So rest in peace to Blackpaw. But you should put this on your sativa room. And what it said was, give weed an inch, and it will take the whole yard.

2:46:48BubblemanAnd that's a true story, especially sativas.

2:46:52Archive SeedsOr those ground creepers. Are you kidding me? You have a t-shirt right there.

2:46:57BubblemanNo, I'm telling you. A, yes, that is a t-shirt. And no, I am not kidding you. Ziplining over a can. Every time I went to his house, I was like, so can I go on the zipline? He's like, dude, come on. He built a zipline and he built like a second floor, kind of like a mezzanine. I was like, dude, you're hardcore. He was running like a 60 light show with just his wife with 4,000 plants.

2:47:20BubblemanOoh.

2:47:24BubblemanYeah.

2:47:25SpeakerCanadians are different. You've been different.

2:47:29BubblemanHe wasn't a Canadian. He was originally an American. He was wanted by the DEA. I think it was over in New York or something. And his wife was like, get in the trunk. We'll get out. They were like blocking the road. She rolled through with him in the trunk and came to Canada and basically, you know, lived near the Kootenays where... All of you crazy bastards that escape your insane government come to grow weed.

2:47:55BubblemanUsed to. Thank you. No, no, it's still happening. Trust me. Every once in a while, we get one. They're good people. We take care of them up here.

2:48:02Etienne FontanThat saying made me think of these ground creepers that the government puts out, which are, there's a type of genetic that it doesn't, it's in the chat. You can actually order those because they're 0.03%. But it's a ground creeper. It basically doesn't have enough lignin to hold it upright. So it basically covers the ground inch by inch. So when you say, you know, give it an inch, it'll take over the entire yard.

2:48:30Etienne FontanIt will take over the entire yard because, you know, they're talking about using this type of genetic just as an in-between right after clover and stuff just to keep down, you know, natural weeds and stuff like that. So, you know, hey.

2:48:46Archive SeedsGround Creeper Weed Lawn.

2:48:48Etienne FontanYep.

2:48:48SpeakerI wonder if the train wreck has that in it.

2:48:52Archive SeedsRight? Well, just lack of creeper has a trait.

2:48:55SpeakerThe train wreck wants to fucking grow sideways on the ground. I wonder. I think you might have to get a bag of those seeds and get it tested.

2:49:13Etienne FontanGenetic mutation is real because I photographed not one, but two different varietals of ground creeper there at the USDA's Grow last year up in Geneva, New York. So yeah, yeah. And they have a full seed bank of, well, they can only let out currently 0.03% seeds legally, so.

2:49:34Archive SeedsGrow enough Skittles hybrids and you'll find some ground creepers, I guarantee you that.

2:49:38Etienne FontanReally?

2:49:39Archive SeedsI mean, basically, I mean, not maybe not to the exaggeration that you're talking about, but plants that won't basically they're basically I call them dwarfs or midgets because they just will not grow up. They just grow out basically. That's it. Yeah.

2:49:57BubblemanInteresting. I'm really interested to see what what the good folks at Arcana are going to come up with here in the next. I mean, this is a big like Michael said, this is a serious project. This is a 20 plus year project that you guys are embarking on here. It's got to be it's kind of got to feel good to, you know, work, you know, semi alone.

2:50:18BubblemanI'm sure you guys have all worked with people, but to create like sort of almost this Brotherhood that you've created here, the super cool cannabis consortium of knowledge and education. I guess you guys will be able to learn a lot really just from each other in the beginning.

2:50:39SpeakerCertainly, I mean, there's, you know, there's a wealth of knowledge among all of us. You know, and we all bring different things to the table here, which is great. So Um, by, you know, working together and sharing the knowledge and then working with other people outside of this group, you know, there's, it's endless possibilities. Um, and, and, you know, I'm going to come back to the, you, you, you said something about the industry.

2:51:04SpeakerWe actually like to say that there, there, there is no industry in cannabis. We're actually just standardizing. We're just starting all this, but we're talking about testing, you know, it's, you know, we were talking about files. Like I was working with, um, A couple of people, Fletch, back in the days when we were doing the seed work in Oregon around the seed loss, like in 2014 and 15, that's when we were talking about dials and I was working with Rick from Agilent.

2:51:31SpeakerAnd we started like, how can we test for these styles? Well, the only way that we can actually do this, we need a sulfur sniffer, right? Well, where can we find a sulfur sniffer? Well, it's the beer guys. And we finally find one, one group with a sulfur sniffer. And we told them what we wanted to do. And they're like, absolutely not. You know, and here we are like 10 years later, and we're still having conversations around dials and things, you know, and You know, look, we're talking about labs and the testing methods that different labs have in standardizing.

2:52:00SpeakerAnd it's that we are at the infancy of all this. And we are really just breaking the ice before we can actually call this an industry, right?

2:52:07Archive SeedsI got a sulfur sniffer right here.

2:52:11SpeakerYeah, right here, right?

2:52:12Etienne FontanAll right, it was 2008, 2009 is when we first started testing, you know, and where are we announced actually testing because we both had to incubate it for, you know, time before we actually relayed what was out there. And yeah, it's rather frustrating, you know, because I was part of that process is how inconsistent or what... We never envisioned is that there would be an unscrupulous underworld created of testing and trying to chase numbers, right?

2:52:48Etienne FontanBecause we know that there's this conflated problem. Well, this is a problem we knew back in 2008 was that, you know, how do we separate this equation from, you know, high THC being the be all end all for people because You know, high number of alcohol seems to be an understanding that is unfortunately casting its light onto cannabis. And we unfortunately have yet to solve, but I'm very heartened to hear you discussing not only discussing, but putting to action lower THC, you know, products, because that's one of the things that we learned when testing first came out.

2:53:33Etienne FontanThere was unfortunately at Harborside a number arbitrary number that was set that you had to live up to to get cannabis and all of a sudden at BPG we were seeing all kinds of cannabis that I had heard about but I had never seen because you know Harborside would buy it all but now because it wasn't meeting this Fictitious number that we saw, unfortunately, a permeation of the misinformation just before that, you know, it's kind of been that Pandora's box that we've never been able to grasp.

2:54:09Etienne FontanBut we've always anecdotally known that. You know, yeah, there's something to high THC, but there's something to really low THC and high chem of our values, right? That we didn't really understand back then. We were just trying to grasp THC. Then CBD kind of thrust itself just into the spotlight because of where it appeared on, you know, spectrometer. Whereas now you can taste test for herbicides, pesticides, and all of these things that are no longer available.

2:54:45Etienne FontanSo. Have you had to turn away any particular genetics because of, such as we lost champagne and pineapple here in the Bay Area because white pottery mildew was just so prevalent on those genetics that everybody just became, ah, stay away from, as well as some other genetics along the way. So have there been some genetics that you've just found are just not biologically living?

2:55:19BubblemanLike lost in that. It's a great point.

2:55:23BubblemanGo ahead, Shane.

2:55:25SpeakerAre you referring to just like genetics being lost just because, well, I would say, yeah. I mean, you know, just dealing with being, well, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in California and down in California, I'm in the Central Valley. I've been a large scale forever right down, down there. I'm in a fucking agricultural war zone. So you're always surrounded by pathogens, viruses, right? And you have cross infection at crops, right?

2:55:48SpeakerSo you see things come and go. And, you know, at a certain point in time, you may have certain great, great, amazing cultivars. I've actually wiped things out just because it wasn't worth holding things around just to have the chance of how blatant, for example, maybe being present in one of those strains. Like I've absolutely wiped out stuff and started back over from seed, right? So if that's what you're asking.

2:56:14SpeakerI mean, I think that's a very important thing. I've linked along with OG all these years. Sometimes it's been good. It takes a left turn. Moms get sick and then it comes back. You learn how to kind of manage that. And I think you try to get your plant as healthy as possible. You take the very top of the plant. You root that and then you grow that up and take those tops and get rid of that plant.

2:56:36SpeakerYou can absolutely grow away from issues that I've had in the past. And there were times where we'd have stretches of powdery mildew because we didn't know how to manage it. And then we've learned how to to, you know, deal with that and with, you know, hops and everything else. I was large scale with OG and Santa Barbara as well. And like, I've learned a ton about how to manage that stuff.

2:56:59Etienne FontanBut that's a hard genetic to grow large scale. It is.

2:57:03SpeakerIt is very. It was, dude, I think like the universe smiled on us because the cloud coverage in Carpinteria, for better or worse, And we had like 85% diffuse panels. So we really had this cool, no shadow greenhouse with very low DLI that the OG actually thrived under. And once we like got a grip on the PM breakouts or any pressures like that, there was a time where we went a really long stretch, believe it or not.

2:57:37SpeakerSame thing, sandwiched between Avocado farms and cut flower farms that are spraying like extremely deadly pesticides and chemicals and also having outbreaks because of that you know they severely affected the plants in a biological way like their immune system around us was really low so we seem to attract all these things around us so we we did have some pms from time to time but we learned how to deal with it through Managing the parameters of the greenhouse, the environmental parameters.

2:58:13SpeakerAnd then, yeah, so here we are with OG. Everybody's like, oh my God, it's so PM. You know, prone and, you know, how do we get away from that? And it's like, you just have to be on top of your environmentals. At Ghost Town, for example, I've been growing with Ghost for, you know, a long time now. And I gave him all my cuts when I was up there.

2:58:33SpeakerHe gave me his cuts. We were like, hey, I can't believe it. He's like, hey, here's what I call Ghost OG. I'm like, well, here's the original OG. And then he grew it side by side. I grew it side by side. That sort of thing. We went down that path of really comparing these genetics grown in two different styles. I was like, you know, I grow in hydro, Rockwell at the time, he was growing in soil.

2:58:54SpeakerAnd, you know, both using, yeah, thanks, Kyle. Yeah, both using those similar lights. So there were some comparable parameters and there were other metrics that were totally different. But one thing's for sure. Ghost was able to manage the PM on his plants and his particular versions of these same genetics were much healthier. And I found, you know, I'm in like in, I'm growing in LA indoors. We had a lot of issues.

2:59:23SpeakerPeople passed around down there. I feel like up in Washington, people grew in a different style. Not that they didn't have their issues, of course, because they do. There's a ton of botrytis and other things. Very hard to get a crop to finish outside in Washington. These sort of things. But indoors, I just was always impressed with the overall health of these OG plants that were in his care.

2:59:48SpeakerAnd that's, I think, what we talk about genetic drift. And Fletcher is saying, too, a lot of times it's just the caretaker. It's the person that is in charge of these plants for a long time. Some people are really good at it and others are not. And then so you see these difference in expressions like, oh, that's genetic drift. It's really just a lack of an expression or whatnot because of a style of growing.

3:00:12SpeakerAt least in my experience, that's the way I've been, you know, learned.

3:00:18BubblemanYou're either giving it something it needs or not giving it something it needs. And that's why I always personally thought having a fungi intelligence on your team is kind of a no-brainer. Yeah. Holy shit.

3:00:32SpeakerIt goes through something... You know, those different epigenetics turn on or off. So if you've, if you've, you know, something bad's happened to it or it's got some kind of pressure or some environmental failure, you know, and then it has to change its epigenetics because it's adaptogenic, right? Then it's going to express itself different. And I think, Fletch, you talk about that, keeping plants for a long time.

3:00:56SpeakerYou know, it's, it's about how you care for them.

3:00:59Archive SeedsYeah, it's how you care for them. But I also think like the most important thing to, in my mind, it's like a cannabis plant is only supposed to live as a seed plant for one season, right? Just right off the bat, right? So when you have a plant that's 30 years old, it's like fucking the equivalent of 3,000 years old of a human, right? It's like many, many lifetimes.

3:01:24Archive SeedsBeyond its expiration date. And so just to expect a plant that's that old to have the exact same expression of hormones and growth patterns and all the different genes that it has for it to produce that the same every time. And then here's the other thing is like, Josh, you know that AM4, AM10, those two clones that you've seen the weed of? Yeah. Like those ones, I've only selected those in the last five years.

3:01:55Archive SeedsHow I fertilize them affects the quality of the herb more than anything else. I mean, obviously you have to have root health and everything else, but all things equal, if you over-fertilize it, it does not have the terps that it should, you know? And it's just, there's a lot of varieties that if you over-fertilize them, They just don't put out the TERT profile that you're looking for.

3:02:16Archive SeedsAnd the most important thing, in my opinion, is a lack of pathogens, which I can't remember who mentioned it earlier, but obviously that being the number one thing. You don't have hops latent or bacteria or fungi that are... All of these things are permanently affecting the performance of your plant. But outside of that, you've got healthy plants. How you fertilize the plants is going to have the most drastic impact.

3:02:45Archive SeedsHow do you furtigate, should I say, meaning your irrigation and your fertilizer schedules and how you do that because every single variety has different needs. You cannot feed like Sour Diesel is not the same fertilizer schedule as Big Bud. It's like not even close. If you try and run Sour D with a Big Bud fertilizer schedule, it's just going to be ram's horn leaves and... I got a shout out Val and Vera's that Ruben dude that came on hash church a while ago with the little NIR tool because the thing that that tool does that is really good and I'll introduce you guys if you want Kaya or Andrew or whoever from the team.

3:03:40BubblemanBecause that thing allows you to validate feed cycles and it allows you to check macro and micronutrients in like a minute on your plants. And so it's super, like the data resolution becomes very, very clear Because you can do a ton of these tests and you said it Fletch, like all the plants are not the same. If you have multiple cultivars in the room, they won't be on the same feed cycle.

3:04:06BubblemanSome will have more of things that they don't need anymore and maybe need things that they don't have. And that little unit, which doesn't cost anything per test, you just buy it outright. You can do updates every year if you want to subscribe. Otherwise, you just use it for the tool that you bought it. But I think out of after playing with it for a while, the highest value is, you know, going over the the checking the macro and micronutrients like Being able to do that is a pretty awesome without a lab or, you know what I mean?

3:04:39BubblemanLike, just like you can get anyone to run this thing. It's just like, it's not, it's not high level chemistry.

3:04:44SpeakerYou don't need to have like a. I'd love to check that out because the foundationally that, you know, what would the, one of the most important things of growing and understanding your strains and your plants, you have to do tissue analysis, right? And that's unfortunately a lot of growers don't have the money to be able to facilitate that and pay for that. But that's really the foundation and how you understand, you know, each strain and how to grow them better and how to recreate that award winning, you know, batch of that strain is what, what did I put into the plant?

3:05:16SpeakerWhat did the plant uptake? What was it, you know, what the success, what was draining out, leaching out the bottom? I would love to see what you're talking about. I traditionally use labs, but I mean, you know.

3:05:26BubblemanYeah, hit me up afterwards. I'll run you through it. It's pretty awesome. I have one. I take it everywhere I go. As a hash maker, it's spectacular, particularly when I'm say I'm commissioning one of those Sambo filtration static machines. I'll be able to take the sift. I test it because it also tests cannabinoids for hash. It can be solid hash. It can be bubble hash. It can be an oil or a rosin.

3:05:52BubblemanBut flour, it does like active water and moisture and cannabinoids and dominant terpenes. And then macro and micronutrients. If you're testing the plant tissue, the fan leaves, it's pretty fucking awesome, man. I got to say, I've been really liking it. I take it everywhere I go. Anytime I'm making hash, I like to be able to test it. You can even throw hash in. It's like this hash.

3:06:17BubblemanYou can toss this kind of hash into it, which is awesome. It's like old school black hash.

3:06:27Archive SeedsThe first thing I kind of learned with SAP analysis, the first time I used it a long time ago was what I found is that The data points you to growing the biggest, most healthy, most lumber producing plants. And one thing I've always said about the best cannabis flower growers is they're the best manipulators of the plant. Because the whole goal with growing flower is to grow The highest quality flower, which basically means the highest resin density with the least amount of lumber, right?

3:07:01Archive SeedsAnd so that's not what the plant wants to do. The plant wants to produce giant cells and giant cell walls. It wants to reach for the light and produce flower bracts that have available nutrients until the seeds can mature. And so I think that sap analysis is valuable, 100%. I'm not discounting that it has its value. In growing the plant for basically up until week three, week four, sap analysis is the most important part.

3:07:30Archive SeedsBut what you do after week three or four, in my opinion, with the manipulation of your environment, your nutrient schedules, your fertigation schedules and everything, determines the quality of your output, essentially. That's how I would, and every variety has, like for example, really fast flowering varieties like Skittles have only maybe a two week growth period where sap analysis, you want to grow the plant as fast as possible.

3:07:59Archive SeedsAnd then basically it starts flowering and you have to change the nutrient profile to your, and then other varieties you can run, you know, That more vegetative nutrient profile without any burn or anything up to 40, 50 days into flower and you just get bigger bulk and as long as you finish it right, you get the bulk and the quality. If that's what you want to do.

3:08:21Archive SeedsThere's a ton of manipulation that can be done.

3:08:24BubblemanAbsolutely. I just like the idea of getting eyes on it. You don't necessarily have to follow what you get eyes on to an extreme manipulation.

3:08:32Archive SeedsManipulating it and finding the values is how you make that schedule 100%. Yeah.

3:08:39BubblemanWell, that's what Inexo on Instagram does. I don't know if you've met Dom from Holland, but he's a contract research organization based in the Netherlands. And they have one of these Valenveras. And they also have like a full, you know, lab that does testing for them. But for his, and he's growing all hazes and stuff right now. We showed them last week on Hash Church, like 15 to 20 week flowering, like, you know, very unique, like not big buds and small lumber, but like the opposite of that.

3:09:12BubblemanAnd yeah, he used that unit to validate his feed cycles just to figure out what the plant needs differently from other plants is kind of a cool, cool option.

3:09:23Archive SeedsWell, I think once you manipulate the plant to get that performance and then you can associate that with elemental values, now you can really dial in your nutrients instead of just saying, oh, the plant looks like it needs this. You can say, oh, I'm going into over vegetative growth into flower. And I need to switch over because these above these values makes this kind of growth on the plant.

3:09:47Archive SeedsAnd I think that's, you know, a massively helpful tool would just be a lot of growers watching their nitrate levels and then correlating that with the type of growth pattern they're seeing from their flowering plants because that's going to be the most effective or the element that has the Most significant impact on flower structure, growth, performance, and resin production.

3:10:17BubblemanNo doubt. Very cool. Very cool. I had another question, but I got all baked and now I can't remember it. It was a good one. It was such a good one. It would have transformed this conversation and all who were listening, but it's gone now. I'm joking.

3:10:36Archive SeedsSo what's the theory that Chem and OG, their great grandparent is what? Pakistani? Iranian? What is it?

3:10:49Archive SeedsNobody's, the only closest thing.

3:10:51SpeakerI wish I had the answer for that, but I don't think anybody knows that answer.

3:10:54Archive SeedsHash plant is the closest thing I've seen, right? Over the years, hash plant seeds I've gotten from outside that have nothing to do with chem and OG. Those have the closest terp profile. Like I bought Quebec hash plant seeds in like 2002 and those smelled like GMO.

3:11:15SpeakerYeah, maybe those two, but the HP 13 from like New York City, completely opposite.

3:11:21Archive SeedsYeah, HP 13 is not, isn't in my opinion. I think it's a Sativa hybrid of some sort based on the breeding I've done with it. Cause it's got the whole Maui, you know, relation to it and everything.

3:11:36BubblemanWe had the hash plant up here and the hash plant, when it was grown perfectly, Thank you for joining us.

3:12:07BubblemanBreast implants, wig, eyelashes. Like this is like this herb is like not real. It just didn't look like any other herb. It was like steroided out herb. And you you never had a hard time selling it. It was herb that people lined up for and nobody ever cuffed it ever.

3:12:28SpeakerLike Marcus was was that around like in the mid 90s, 90s? If I first saw it got Afghani coming down from up there. Thank you so much for joining us. We're so happy to have you on the show.

3:13:01BubblemanI was like, all right, well, come on, come on up to Canada. And it was Vic High who came to my house with Gypsy Nirvana. And I had this like meeting of these super trippy dudes that I didn't know at all. I remember Vic was super trippy. He brought like all these jars of dank weed, but didn't smoke weed. I was like, what the fuck, dude? Like, why aren't you smoking any of this?

3:13:22BubblemanLike, this seems like an important factor, but clearly it wasn't because he had made very good selections in all the things that he had. But yeah, Gypsy came out. I brought Gypsy to a grow on the Sunshine Coast just across the water from me here. And it was 10 lights of this champagne hash plant. And those photos definitely got published in his magazine. I think the IC mag or maybe it was before his magazine and they got published in Weed World magazine, another magazine.

3:13:50BubblemanBritish Magazine or maybe Red Eye, but they were pictures of Gypsy's head. He was like leaning into this room, which was like a little small square. It was a 10 by 10 room that would grow like, you know, 20 plus. It was a 10 light room that would grow like 22 to 24 pounds of this herb. And it was all lime green. It was all like there were no A's and B's.

3:14:13BubblemanIt was all just like you just it was really unique, crazy herb. And it was particularly one that if you bragged about having on the Internet, you may get a visit from a motorcycle organization asking you where you got it. It was a fairly protected cultivar and everyone that had it had that connection to it. You know, it was always through

3:14:38Archive SeedsThat group that I saw it growing at reefer man spot in Camel River.

3:14:45BubblemanYeah, reefer man would have had access to it.

3:14:48Archive Seeds2004, you know, because I was thinking about moving to Canada to grow because of the laws, right? It was like, well, I can do breeding up there and collecting plants with way less risk. So I've seen it. Like I said, the closest I've seen of unrelated to OG and everything is Hashplant. That's that's always the closest I ever saw.

3:15:17SpeakerIt's cool that you bring up the champagne. I remember in 97 specifically, we're in the Bay Area and we had a weed contest and had my my partner there is like really connected. With the cannabis scene in LA and in really all of California. It's kind of like the guy that got me started out of our group of friends. And so his buddies were there and they all entered their very best weed that they had at that time.

3:15:48SpeakerAnd the champagne was there and it placed like probably Like fourth or fifth. But I remember it being like really galaxy, like no leaf. And it was light, like light colored, like with like a really nice frost on it. And I remember being like, what the fuck is this? It was, it was amazing. But it, it reminded me more of like the color of like Mac one than like OG or anything.

3:16:14SpeakerLike the color was light, you know?

3:16:17BubblemanAnd the smell was never there. Like it was never like some extraordinary. The smell wasn't there, yeah. It wasn't some like... Thank you for joining us.

3:16:45BubblemanIs exactly a year that a lot of the BC hash plant was getting all of it. In fact, anyone that grew it good enough to call it a champagne, it was going to Los Angeles. That's where it went.

3:16:59Archive SeedsI bought pounds of a champagne hash plant in Seattle, you know?

3:17:04BubblemanNo, it went all the way down, like from Bellingham all the way down. Depending on who you knew, you could buy that. But the people who were paying the most for it were... Down in Los Angeles.

3:17:15SpeakerActually, I see somebody commenting on this chat saying Champelli, and it's true. I didn't know Champelli. We recently met like four or five years ago, and we were talking about this, and he was like, I was there, dude. I was at that event at that person's flat, like basically it was. And I was like, are you serious, man? I got like a ton of old pictures from that event.

3:17:38SpeakerI'm going through it trying to like send it to him. Is this you? Because we all... This is like, man, this is like coming up on 30 years ago. And yeah, man. Anyways, cool stuff. I, I wondered whatever happened to that champagne because it was it was pretty special. You know, anything that doesn't have leaf to me, like that grows in a way like it looks just like it's from out of this world.

3:18:02SpeakerYou know, to me, that's always like what I gravitated towards. But

3:18:07BubblemanYeah, I had it in seed form for a long time. They were they were definitely over 20 years, close to 25 years when I finally cracked them. But they were just like fucked. They just were like mutants. They just the from the cotyledons to the epicottles to like they just couldn't be grown. They were just like there was something really, really wrong with them. And because I remember I also planted this this lamb's bread that I got from Jamaica in 95.

3:18:35BubblemanWhen I was when I was married there and I had those seeds and it was also 20 to 25 years from the time I cracked those and they actually popped and I gave cuts away to a bunch of people. And yeah, it was it was nice to see an old friend, you know, where you're like, hey, hello, old friend. As Phil Lesh once sang.

3:19:03SpeakerThe best feeling when you see that old friend of that, you know, your strain that you made or that strain that used to grow like 15, 20 years ago and finally get it right back in your hands. Yes.

3:19:13BubblemanIt's definitely something else. I see it now with Renee. I see Renee and all sorts of different things that people will show me and I'll taste it and be like, oh, that's like Renee, even though it's never really quite Renee. And like Chimera has said many times. We really need to take this lexicon that we have and turn it into something that can be shared with the public and the masses, you know, a shared lexicon that can't be based on like your description of what you smell.

3:19:48BubblemanThat can be a part of it, but it has to have the substance behind it, which is that really important factor of like, what is it? Like, what the fuck is this? Why is this this? Why is Chem 91 Chem 91? And why is, you know, why are they what they are? And that to me is the chemovaric explanation of what, what, what are the chemicals that make up that profile?

3:20:16BubblemanAnd on that note, I think I'm going to have a fat dab.

3:20:20Collin PalmerGreg, you mentioned HP13 from New York City.

3:20:27Collin PalmerDid you mention that?

3:20:29SpeakerYeah, I used to love that shit. Smokes taste so good.

3:20:33Collin PalmerIt's still not been reclaimed. I think I talked to Smenji several times trying to get it back to him. And you said every time someone tried to get it back to him, it's like, you know, similar thing. It's like, not it, you know?

3:20:47SpeakerYeah. It's still around. It's still around, I bet, in pockets, but I haven't seen it. I mean, I'm in New York.

3:20:55Archive SeedsOne of the best Boston varieties I have is HP crossed with the Maui Skunk Dog. Kai, remember the Hawaii thing, right? Keith had the HP 13 out here. It's still even here on Maui.

3:21:14Collin PalmerThe creator of it would love it back. He's been trying for a long time.

3:21:20Archive SeedsYeah, it's definitely still around. I'd like to see it. If it's around, I'd like to see it. I know it's in California. Maui was like where it was known as being the hotspot for it really. And the main reason is because it doesn't rot in the jungle. So you could grow it in the jungle and it doesn't rot. I grew indoors back in the days.

3:21:38SpeakerThis last season that we did, we ran a Maui Walker.

3:21:44Archive SeedsYeah.

3:21:44SpeakerMy favorite plant in the whole thing. It's unreal. Right.

3:21:48Archive SeedsYeah. No, I mean, pretty much everything is skunk dog and HP 13 that's out here, the pog, all those things. They're all the hybrids of the same two plants. Nice. Because they're the most disease resistant. So you can put them outside and they don't get PM and everything. So over the years, those are the plants that just always came out the best in most of the environments for people.

3:22:13Archive SeedsNice.

3:22:14Collin PalmerAnd you're talking about where you're at in the island right now?

3:22:17Archive SeedsYeah, just all of Maui has always been an HP 13 hotspot. You know, people grew more in the jungle back in the day because it was more illicit, so you'd have to go hide out and do it. But now that it's medical, people got plants in the backyard everywhere. Yeah.

3:22:34BubblemanHey, we're getting into the last like half an hour to 40 minutes. I wanted to talk a little bit more to Andy. I wanted to hear a little bit more of his sort of history and his sort of early days of smoking herb and hash in the Bay Area. I know you had some negotiations with pro sports and, you know, your contribution to the cannabis industry, you know, over those years.

3:22:55BubblemanI'd love to get a little more into that because that's not something that everyone knows.

3:23:01SpeakerOh, yeah, it's, well, sure, my pleasure. I, well, I'm 66 years old, and I've been smoking weed for 50 years. And it is so funny listening to all this, because I can remember New Riders of the Purple Sage came out with Panama Red, and we were smoking Panama Red. And, you know, albums, it was just, it was this very special time. I was living back east, and I We actually would get, you know, tie sticks started coming through.

3:23:35SpeakerWeed from California started coming out. And I'm just the flower guy for the most part, though. Kaya got me turned on to his solventless hash, and that's been something new and fun to do in the last 18 months with him. It's really, he's the first person I actually dabbed with. He opened up a whole new world to me. But on the cannabis side, and I've been, Doing the legal business for 10 years now in nine different states.

3:24:07SpeakerAnd Fletcher, I didn't realize you're in... You're in Hawaii, I guess. But, you know, there's full transparency. I started in the legal business with Maui Wellness Group, which operates Maui Grown Therapies on Maui. We have a couple of stores there. We lost our best store in the Ohana fires, and it's been a real tragedy. It's going to be a long time until we recuperate, and that's just been a big blow.

3:24:36SpeakerAnd... Yeah...

3:24:40SpeakerI had met, it's funny, when I came over to California, somewhere along the way, Bob Weir from the Grateful Dead and a couple of other pals, mutual friends that I had of Michael's, introduced me to Steve D'Angelo. And that was in 2016.

3:25:02SpeakerAnd I met Steve and tried to help Harborside with some stuff then. Ended up going inside and doing the go public on Harborside as well, too. So 17, 18, 19. And that's why I've got so many battle scars, honestly, about the legal weed business, because I've seen every piece of it from every side. That's how I met Shane Sonny on this call. We had a farm in Salinas and it's a tough grow area.

3:25:29SpeakerAnd I think everybody on the call knows Shored Brooks and, you know, the Dutch consulting company at the time. And I needed some help at that farm. And I asked Shored if he'd come inside and he called me up and we went down to the farm. He said, I think I'm going to strip the whole fucking thing. I said, what? He goes, yeah, I'm just going to take it down to the studs and let's just rebuild the thing.

3:25:53SpeakerAnd I said, well, OK, that's all right. Let's do that. I figure either it's going to be brilliant or I'm going to lose my job like really quickly. And it was brilliant. And Short introduced me to Shane and a couple of other folks. So I've just been very privileged, honestly, Marcus, to be associated with good people along the way.

3:26:19SpeakerYou know, after Harborside, I got involved with folks in Ohio. And I've been in Ohio from 20, from the start of the program until 2021.

3:26:36SpeakerSo we had a full vertical operations in Ohio as well too and a couple of stores. I've always liked the retail side of the business and I think it's just because that's where a lot of consumers, the rubber hits the road and there's all sorts of misinformation frankly. I think that the testing market out there is just pathetic. I think that the testing labs in state to state, they need to be uniform and they should be nonprofit businesses to tell you the truth.

3:27:04SpeakerI think the fact that state testing labs are for profit businesses is a major, major problem. I think labeling messed things up. Everybody just, including myself, you looked at Bag Appeal, you looked at Aroma, you looked at your eyes and listened to your nose. I think labeling has messed things up. I think testing labs have messed things up. But I've also, like I said, on the retail side, I had a store in Portland, Maine with a couple of friends.

3:27:30SpeakerAnd that was great when Portland, Maine, you know, it's had 12 stores. And when the licensing folks opened it up to 38, that business just, you can't survive in a town that has, you know, is only open six months of the year. I've made every mistake in the book and went into Oklahoma. I did everything wrong. It's like that little person that sits on your shoulder and tells you what to do and what not to do.

3:27:58SpeakerAnd I didn't even listen to myself. I picked the wrong partner. I went into the wrong part of the value chain. And, you know, just one day woke up and I gave my wife the keys to the Oklahoma car and I just said, I got to get out. Like, I've just made so many I made so many mistakes and I don't mind talking about it, right? I've got a pre-roll business.

3:28:23SpeakerWe're in California and Nevada and Arizona and I'm doing work with Greg and we're going to put ourselves into Chem's facility in Massachusetts. And I did a turnaround situation in Puerto Rico. I ran a large retailer in the Caribbean. I hope all this doesn't come across as anything more than sharing information. There's nothing right, wrong about what I did. It's just all lessons learned from this side.

3:28:54SpeakerAnd I hope it doesn't come across as obnoxious. But you sort of asked the question. I've just been doing it for a long time. And I've really seen every good, bad, and ugly in the process, which is why... The Arcana thing. See, when Michael called me up, I really meant what I said. I said, it sounds like a great idea. Building a brand is hard. Corralling a bunch of breeders is going to be hard.

3:29:19SpeakerBut honestly, you got to find sort of the cracks in the industry, right? And it's very, very hard when you're trying to build a business, run a business at the same time that you're watching an industry be created, which I think is the point that Shane was trying to make. Um, you know, it's just hard to do all that stuff, but that's the difference I find with Arcana.

3:29:44SpeakerAnd I wanted to tell everybody that the thing, some of the comments we've gotten back is what we're doing is actually very, very cool, but I think it's really important that everybody understands that what we're creating here is just a platform for everybody to be able to collaborate on too. And that's sort of the essence of the PAC program as well. Right. So. I don't know. I don't want to bore people with too much, but that's sort of my background and what I've been doing and why I've been doing it.

3:30:09SpeakerAnd I'm very, very passionate about this, by the way, too. I've had a I've had a pretty I've been blessed with a variety of a career in law and business. And I've been the mayor of my town here twice. You know, here in Mill Valley where Mike was and Weir lives and we just, and you know, Jerry lived. I mean, it's just, it's just been a real, it's just been a variety of things.

3:30:37SpeakerAnd I, I like the cannabis industry because it's, You know, sort of law and government relations and business sort of all come together. But the most important thing is just working with good people. And I think that's the piece that's been lost in a lot of pieces, you know, a lot of parts of the industry. And that's what I can't, Arcana can do something different. And I think everybody on this call can all be a part of it.

3:30:58SpeakerThat's really part of our message. Marcus, Andy's like the secret weapon. I mean, he's, he's got a real good heart. He's a moral business person. And, um, You know, talking to Amit from Pure Sativa, he was like, you know, I love that you guys got this breeder group, but I wouldn't think you could do it without somebody like Andy. And he's right. You know, if it was just us guys, we would have already ripped ourselves apart.

3:31:26SpeakerBut Andy has a measured way of structuring things and helping us out. And And he's a real asset. As he said, what we're building with Arcana isn't just about us. It's about everybody. This is really and truly about, you know, giving just dues back to where they belong, kind of resetting the whole table. And Andy is our secret weapon in doing that. So he's helping us. He's really helping everybody out.

3:31:54SpeakerYou're too kind. I appreciate it. Yeah, I agree. I agree with Kaya a lot on that. It's very grateful to have Andy. He keeps us grounded. And I want to say thank you to him for being our COO and Michael for being our CEO, for giving us the support we have to be able to do our dream and be able to have the facility we have. So them two guys keep us pretty grounded.

3:32:17SpeakerSo thank you to you two. It's a pleasure. Such a privilege. It's a privilege. And Ahmed's a gem. He's going to be, I mean, so everybody knows, right? I mean, Ahmed's going to be our partner in Europe. Like we're way down the path. Right, we're way, way down a path to be able to work with good people around the globe and do it the right way. And we've really enjoyed our time with Amit and getting him up and running.

3:32:40SpeakerThat'll be exciting as well too.

3:32:42BubblemanAmit is top notch. I've worked with Amit and Pure Sativa for, it's gotta be 20 plus years. I may have even met him back in the earliest days of going to the Spanibus, like in 2004. Right, because he just carried all my friends seeds. So I was like, well, you should carry bubble bags too. And so yeah, we did all sorts of great business together. It's always been amazing to bump into.

3:33:06BubblemanI'm always happy to see him to this day when I bump into him at any event around the world. In fact, last time I did, he gifted me a beautiful, some beautiful macro photography. That was a new project that he was working on. So yeah, shout out to Amit for sure.

3:33:22SpeakerOh, that's so good. That's so cool to hear. Yeah, no, he's, yeah, like I said, another privilege to see, you know, people you get to meet and get and now get to work with, right? Again, we're creating something that a lot of people can collaborate with. Yeah.

3:33:36BubblemanYeah, well, that's excellent. Well, I definitely am going to be collaborating with you guys. I don't know how I will be collaborating with you guys. But I know I will be the bubble man brand is currently in eight states right now. And we'll figure that out. Maybe we'll get some genetics from you. We'll figure out some synergy there along the way because yeah, I want to make sure that the you know, my brand stands out as well.

3:34:01BubblemanAnd You're not wrong. Like building a brand is not an easy thing.

3:34:06SpeakerReally hard.

3:34:07BubblemanI sold these damn bubble bags for 25 years before I decided to be like, oh, maybe I'll use the brand now to like as a vehicle to sell hash. And it's already got this 25 year history. That history is about teaching people how to make hash. Now it's like, well, now I should make the hash available, right? We've come full circle. So there it is. Should be, should be fun.

3:34:34SpeakerLike I said, I'm waiting on this damn waiver because of course, the last thing I want to do is enter the US illegally. Oh gee, right now, yeah.

3:34:45BubblemanI think I'll just, well, no, I haven't been there in like almost 30 years.

3:34:47SpeakerYeah.

3:34:48BubblemanSo this just happens to be the moment in time that I'm like, I'm going to come down to the US. So I'm going to make sure I do it very, very, very legally.

3:35:01SpeakerWe've been flirting with that kind of stuff for a long time, Marcus, so it would be really cool to...

3:35:05BubblemanI know, dude. Absolutely, man. I mean, don't get me wrong. There's so many places I have to go from like the East Coast to the South to the middle to... But Washington, man, like right there, it's like right over the border in Washington. That's pretty sweet. I would say your facility is probably maybe five or six hours from where I am, depending on what side of Seattle you're on.

3:35:32SpeakerWell, it depends what the traffic is once you hit Seattle. Because, man, I've been going up there. It's freaking brutal. You know, if you do it at 11 o'clock at night, I think you're 30 minutes in Seattle. You do it any other time of day, it can take you two hours.

3:35:46BubblemanWell, that's the key right there. Don't do it when all the people or sheeple, whatever you want to call them, are like, man, they're like in that, like, that is a horrible feeling and everyone in it feels it. I don't go to Vancouver very often. I live outside of Vancouver.

3:36:06SpeakerWhere do you live?

3:36:07BubblemanI live in Lions Bay on the way up to Whistler between Vancouver and Squamish or whatever. And yeah, it's very beautiful. It's very good. But every once in a while you have to go down to the city. So yesterday it was it wasn't my 30th anniversary yesterday. That was a few days ago. But yesterday my wife and I went and celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary. And we're going to be at one of our favorite restaurants, which is called Tojo's.

3:36:34BubblemanAnd Tojo is this like just world famous Japanese sushi chef that is the coolest fucking dude ever. And he just crush it like food wise. I mean, honestly, when you guys were explaining everything you wanted to be and were going to be, I was like, well, they're making like a Tojo's. Because when you go to Tojo's, that's what it is. And you guys should come to Vancouver and come to Tojo's so you know exactly what I'm talking about.

3:36:58BubblemanBut it's like, it's just, there's something different. The way he does things that every other people can do, they just can't do them like he does them. And he creates this level of authenticity. I haven't been at a restaurant in a long time that A, had food that good, and B, was just so mellow. The whole vibe of the restaurant was like down here. There was no like loudness and all the waitresses were so polite and bowing and it was just, yeah, Tojo's the man.

3:37:29BubblemanYes, Tojo did invent the California roll. Hey, Mara, you are correct. It's such a fucking royalty there. That's badass.

3:37:38SpeakerI love Vancouver. I spent a little over three years going up there every month. I was in wireless for years and merged a business up with Sierra Wireless. They were in Richmond, but... Yeah, it's a beautiful part of the world, frankly.

3:37:55BubblemanRichmond's killer. Richmond is 75% of the Richmond population is Chinese. So you have the most epic Chinese food.

3:38:03SpeakerYeah, yeah, you really do.

3:38:04BubblemanThey just call it food, but we call it Chinese food. And it is amazing, bro.

3:38:10SpeakerNo, no, no, it's great. Yeah, no, it's the best. When you get a good vista of Vancouver, it is the prettiest city in North America. It's just gorgeous.

3:38:23BubblemanI mean, listen, one of the reasons is because Mount Baker can be seen behind it. Mount Baker is probably the most beautiful aspect of, you know, I mean, unless you're taking the classic shot, which is like Cyprus. Seymour and Grouse, which are three ski mountains right behind it. But if you pan over to over here, you get Mount, sorry, not Mount Washington, Mount Baker. And it is, people are always like, what the fuck is that?

3:38:49BubblemanI'm like, that's Mount Baker. They're like, whoa, how far away is that? I'm like, dude, not far at all.

3:38:53SpeakerAnd it's in a foreign country.

3:38:59BubblemanI don't actually say that, but I will say that while I was watching the World Series, I heard the guy say, this is the first time in a long time that the World Series has started in a foreign country and will end in a foreign country. And I was like, did he just call Canada a foreign country? And then I was like, I guess we are a foreign country.

3:39:16BubblemanHoly shit. I never really thought about it. It just sounded like it shocked me for a second, but I'll take it. Whatever. We're neighbors. We're buddies. We like each other, Canada and America, right? Without social media, without politics, we like each other. Brothers. Dude, come on.

3:39:33SpeakerWell, if you're not liking us these days, we'll give you a pass on that because it's a fucking crazy world we're living in down here, that's for sure.

3:39:40BubblemanWell, you know what? I'll tell you something. I think the craziest part of it is in here and the least crazy part of it is out here.

3:39:48SpeakerYeah.

3:39:49BubblemanBecause when I'm with people, no matter where I am, it's like unless they're talking about this like story that they're being told, it's awesome. People are still amazing and they're doing like I talk to elderly people in their 90s and 80s and there is amazing knowledge going on in that level of wisdom and age right now that because they've seen a lot of these different things play out before.

3:40:16BubblemanAnd once you realize they're just like I don't know. They're just like human fads or whatever. They just come and go. In the meantime, for the most part, as long as we're not sharing our political beliefs with one another, we can get along. I really believe that. It's like most people want to live in the bird. They don't want to be like out on the... I remember being pretty fucking extreme on the far end of the tip of the wing of cannabis activism.

3:40:42BubblemanI will admit it. I was like... I was like, okay, this is actually like, I think we might be doing real crime here.

3:40:52SpeakerThat's funny. Yeah. So, Marcus, if you don't mind, can we take this opportunity to let the good people know where they can find our products and when we're launching and all that good stuff?

3:41:04BubblemanOh, my God, dude. Absolutely. And I'll put it all in the description of the video as well, which will go out as well into the podcast, which is on Spotify and Google and Android and all those other ones.

3:41:15SpeakerSo fantastic.

3:41:17BubblemanGet it out there.

3:41:18SpeakerSo we had we did the Hall of Flowers in September. And we had a little booth, but we weren't really offering seeds. We just wanted to kind of pop out and say hi to everyone. And we had a wonderful little kickoff party at the Sweetwater Music Hall. The Snow Valley. It was it was really, really special. And it's all kind of been building up. We will have, we'll be at MJ BizCon in Las Vegas, December 2nd through the 5th.

3:41:48SpeakerThe 2nd is my birthday. So if you're in town and you want to come catch me out partying, let's do it. You're all invited. But yeah, we'll be there and we'll be dropping our first releases. We've got a couple of feminized releases that we're going to be offering. And then we'll have, I think, nine offerings from our Banana BX3 mail, and those are going to be regular seeds.

3:42:13SpeakerSo, Josh, you got something you wanted to add to that? Yeah, if anybody's heard of Terp Nami, it's happening down in San Francisco in the Bay Area. It's in the Soma District. People can go online, find out more information about it. It's only five bucks to get in. Should be about 50 of us breeders there. I'm representing Arcana and we'll have a booth there. So anything, anybody want to come down, hang out, I'll...

3:42:44SpeakerI'm also doing a drop for my brand as well, but I'm going to have probably all together like 20 varieties, 20 new stuff. But really, if anybody's down and just wants to come down and smoke some OG, say what's up. It's December 6th and 7th. And you can go to terpnami.com to check that out. And then like Kaya said, we're all going to be at MJ BizCon.

3:43:08SpeakerI know a lot of people can't get down there. It's kind of like tends to be a business side of things. But we'll all be down there together. And if you're down there, come by, say what's up, hang out and check out what we're doing. Yeah, there's a retail section inside the trade show where you can, you know, sell under the farm bill. So we'll be in that section there.

3:43:32SpeakerWe'll have slips. We'll have, uh, you can take slip orders. I don't think we'll have slips there. Um, but, uh, we have over, I think we have over a dozen new varieties. So, um, this is it. This will be, this will be fun. If you can't come there, come to Terp Nami. If you can't go to our website, check it out. We're definitely going to be engaged with more events for 2026.

3:43:55SpeakerSo arcana.net. And then, um,

3:44:01SpeakerI would expect it will be at Spanibus this year, Mary Jane, trying to limit how many places we go to. There's just so many out there.

3:44:11BubblemanYou got to pick and choose wisely. Otherwise you're burning funds for no reason. You got to find out. I think it's very much like what Shane said earlier. If you're going to do a breeding project, you have to have like, you have to know where you're heading. You're the direction, right?

3:44:27SpeakerYeah. And, you know, we're not, We're not white labeling. We're not just running around with our faces and somebody else is doing the work. We're in the garden. We're gardeners.

3:44:38BubblemanOh, Jaime's not making these for you in Spain?

3:44:43SpeakerSorry, bud. We're OGs. We do our own work. We put in our own work. We build our own shit. We do it all, start to finish. Yeah. That's one of the cool things about this group. You don't see many people doing that, right? These days. And I want to, I want to shout out Fletcher. Thank you for coming out today and being on the show with us and, um, really big, big yourself up for, for always standing up for this kind, this part of the culture that, that, you know, you defend things, you defend breeders kind of, you know, rights, I guess, if you want to call it that, or just, you know, that, that respect and, um, Anyways, I always appreciate that about you.

3:45:23SpeakerSo big up yourself.

3:45:25Archive SeedsThanks, man. Yeah, I it's just like I said earlier to me, it's like a stolen valor type thing. It's like, don't don't be stealing shit from my buddies. Fuck you.

3:45:38SpeakerNo doubt.

3:45:39BubblemanStraight up. Well, there's a lot of valor in this room right now, so I'm really quite enjoying it. Got a nice little piece of Cuban links hash in my hand. It's terpene lean sativa rich for real. Pretty hard, but it's going to soften up as I play with it. And what a better way to spend a Sunday afternoon than squeezing hash and talking cannabis genetics. I'm excited personally for the future of cannabis.

3:46:06BubblemanI don't know exactly where it's going to go from the purchase aspect of people buying products. I think I have an idea. That's why personally, you know, with my brand, I kind of, You know, I, I came at things from a, I only want the best. And then I realized, fuck, I think I might've been a little delusional there. Like that's a little bit like privileged of me, like, because there's the best in all sorts of levels, right?

3:46:32BubblemanThere's like, there's a lot of people I can promise you. That are not going to be fucking taking dabs at a $10,000 bongs today of high potency, you know, live hash rosin or whatever. And there's some that are going to. So great. Enjoy that. But there's a whole variety of ways. I got so snobby in my own right that I stopped appreciating things. That I wished I could still appreciate.

3:47:00BubblemanAnd unfortunately for me, joints are not on that list anymore. I fucked that up really badly. But hash still is. And when I started coming out with that, just the simple product, the hash hit, which is just, you know, a little paper tube with a ceramic bowl and mouthpiece that you can burn a cup, a 0.2 of a gram of hash instead of a joint necessarily. And I thought, what a cool product.

3:47:21BubblemanYou know, everyone's got their Different brands and their different joints. I can come in and be like, hey, let's do a collaboration and we can do these hash hits. And so what I had to do was when I was designing them, I had to start smoking hash. And I had only been vaporizing and volatizing and dabbing for so long that it took a bit to get back to the smoking aspect of it.

3:47:43BubblemanBut when I did it in two particular places, electric skateboarding around the seawall of Vancouver and snowboarding on Whistler Mountain, It gave me the most incredible joy and different experience than being high, which is what I guess I had been focused on, skunk man Sam style, like how high can you get? That was my mentality. And then I was smoking this hash and it was, I guess, more like joints.

3:48:08BubblemanIt was getting me stoned instead of high. Really just like a nice mellow feeling. And yeah, sometimes it's important to not... To stay grounded in reality to a degree. And that's what I've had to do with my brand is that, yeah, we have podium products. If you want, oh, the best hash or whatever. You can buy some full melt or some live hash rosin, but we also make sure we have temple balls and, you know, Afghan style brick hash and different convenient hash products that allow for the cannabis customer, which I'm sure you can probably agree a huge percentage of them buy just pre-rolled joints.

3:48:51BubblemanThey don't have even rolling papers in their possession. They have... Just a lighter. That's like a huge percentage. It's got to be well over 50. I used to say 80. Maybe it's down to 65 or 70.

3:49:02SpeakerWell, it's really eaten into the flower market in a significant way, right? I don't know, because I remember retail, you know, flower was 70% of the sales, and then vapes and edibles took it down to below 50. And I bet you pre-rolls, well, I know they've eaten into half of that market. You're absolutely right.

3:49:26BubblemanYeah, pre-rolls are definitely very popular. People love them and they love the convenience of them. So I just was like, how can I create a product that's sort of like this but totally different and brings them over to the hash side? Because also a lot of those folks are terrified of like dabs and hash and they're like, oh, my auntie took a dab. You know, Marcus, I was, right?

3:49:47SpeakerI was used to blonde hash or black hash like you're showing and you put it into a pipe and I'm sitting with Kaya And he says, well, try a dab. And I'm like, well, I don't know. And he took me right through it. And yeah, it's a lot. But you're absolutely right. People like convenience. People, that looks nice. Yeah. People like convenience. And people, it's a lot to take on, right?

3:50:20SpeakerIt's a lot to take on. I have a lot of hope for the market, too. Andy, your first dab, you were like, wow, that's, you know, he was kind of blown away by the entire process, right? It wasn't just load a bowl and smoke it. Yeah, well, you were kind enough too to watch the temperature. I told you I wanted flavor. I much prefer flavor, right? I'd much prefer a glass of wine over a shot of vodka any day.

3:50:49SpeakerYeah, that ritual, though, that's part of smoking, you know, like. Yes, yes, absolutely. Building a spliff or whatever it is. And I like that ritual. I told you I bought my first Puffco right now. Like, you know, you've got, you fucking guys have just like ruined me.

3:51:05BubblemanDude, it's interesting that you would say that because what do you think, Andy, the future of, you know, there's, and I'm not talking about necessarily maybe the group of people that you have compiled here. They're going to end up inevitably breeding from what they love and what they know that may go in many, many different directions. But what do you guys think? of this new you know there's a lot of people do not have the history of smoking these concentrates or even 25 to 30 thc it's just too much they're putting the joints out you know what if we were bringing a much lower thc product to market with a much higher volatile organic compound so it's more about that flavor profile instead of the utter and complete destruction of said person's soul for 45 to two and a half hour You know, period.

3:51:55BubblemanBecause you want both. But I think we know that the people who want to puff till they're on the brink of devastation make up a very, very, very small percentage of the people who use cannabis. And then there's the people who are just like, I got this vape pen at the gas station. It's like Delta 8 or something. Is that good? Like, I don't even know. It's got like botanical terpenes in it or whatever.

3:52:18BubblemanIt's like, so there's like this whole, there's this vast chasm between those two buyer groups. How do you guys see bridging that chasm or that gap, right? Because I know you'll take care of the heady, no problem. Like that's going to be very natural for you guys. That's sorted. You've been doing that for a long time. The chasm is how do you make sure that you create something for this other group that might need some steps?

3:52:44BubblemanThey might not be able to go from here to here. Because all of us took like the steps to get there, how do we bring them up to speed or at least create a pathway for them to take? Hopefully that's not too diluted of a question and anyone can answer that.

3:53:03SpeakerYou know, I would say one thing that I see a lot and I think we all see a lot is a lot of, first of all, a lot of these older strains that test a little bit lower, you know, like we just don't see a lot of these and they're not available in dispensaries as much, right? You know, your baby boomers and things like that, they'll go into a dispensary and they don't want the 30 percenter.

3:53:26SpeakerMost of them are looking for something 14, 15 percent. Give me a cherry pie or You know, and they're looking for a Panama Red. They're looking for the very nostalgic varieties that they grew up with, right? A lot of those things you don't see. So being able to go on, resurrect and try to find those authentic genetics that are those types of things, like the Panamas and the Punta Rojos and things like that, you know, try to provide that for them, right?

3:53:54SpeakerIt's going to test a little bit lower, but then also you're providing that to the younger demographics that have never seen that. So I guess that's one way to try to potentially try to bridge that gap a little bit is by, I guess, nostalgia of older genetics, right? And those types of things by bringing them to the old and then sharing them with the new because they've never really experienced it.

3:54:15SpeakerOr maybe they think they have, but it's not really that true authentic version of it, right?

3:54:21BubblemanMm-hmm. I mean, even lower than 14%, I could imagine there'd be a huge market for five to 8%, you know, where it's like, this is party cannabis. Like, do you like smoking cannabis? This is super flavorful, tasty cannabis. You can smoke five joints a day and you don't have to be some hardened head.

3:54:38SpeakerYeah, it's just the price, though. Are we going to talk about the economics of it? I mean, when I buy, part of the factor of buying cannabis is like, if it can get me the effect I'm looking for off one hit, my eighth is going to last a long time. Or do I have to smoke this entire bag to get that same effect? Thank you for joining us.

3:55:10SpeakerConnect those in a ratio that's like, you know, sort of, you know, locked in. But, I mean, I would try a Panama Red if it was like 10 bucks and it like kind of didn't get me high because I'm a, you know, I smoke heady or, you know, strong weed. So, but I want flavor. You know, I like diversity. I think about it as like a bar, like a liquor bar at your house.

3:55:30SpeakerLike, what do you have? What are the categories of booze you have? Like, I look at Kush as its own, Category like you would look at a whiskey or a tequila and there's different grades of it. And like Andy said, hey, I prefer, you know, a Chardonnay or a glass of wine. It's like, yeah, I do too. Like I don't drink that much. I like a little glass.

3:55:51SpeakerI like a beer, you know, but I like a shot of tequila too. I mean, these are all like preference things on strength. But how do you sell this in a way that it makes sense economically for people, especially how expensive weed is, you know?

3:56:03BubblemanWell, I think it plays into their two different demographics. You know, you've got the one heady demographic that is, of course, no matter what, guaranteed comparing the price to how many highs it breaks down to, how well, what the quality of the high is. But these, I'm talking about people who are afraid to get high. They're quite frankly afraid to get high. But you should see the money that they'll spend on a flavored vape pen.

3:56:31BubblemanSo they have no problem spending money on flavor. It's just like, can cannabis become one of those, you know, like I saw it in Switzerland back, you know, 20 plus years ago. And I'm pretty sure Shanti Baba still sells CBD cigarettes in Switzerland because the Swiss love to fucking smoke and smoking tobacco is not so healthy, but you can go buy these CBD cigarettes and they're just smoking like half a pack of these CBD cigarettes every day.

3:56:56BubblemanAnd I started realizing, well, then you got Napro, and they've been working on creating all these different type one and two and three type plants, plants that have very low THC, but have all the flavor profiles. You know, I know work was done there in regards to that. So I just wonder, like, You know, I wonder how much, how important to me, the economics is important to the business.

3:57:19BubblemanIt has to succeed. And so what I've kind of done is like, but I want to do the work over here that costs money. So then what my business plan is now I have to figure out a way to feed the larger group of people, something that's solid and amazing that I can stand by. Thank you for joining us.

3:57:54BubblemanIn a year, it's an astronomical amount. Like, do you want to sell to the people who just want to know about the best? Or do you want to get the brand out and break out to all of these people who are, you know, right now, while you're doing this work, they're not even cannabis users yet. They're going to come on in the next five years to sort of be a new cannabis user and to see, well, what's this arcana about?

3:58:17SpeakerIt's why it's really why I joined this group, too, man, because I've been so hyper focused in one You know, kind of direction that I, you know, I love cannabis, too. And I know the diversity here can happen with a group bringing all these different genetics. And, you know, this conversation that this topic is, you know, it's something that we talk about as well. You know, it's not only about THC, but at some level it is.

3:58:44SpeakerI have licensing deals and to them. When I get a call, hey, bro, it's 22%. We can't sell it. I'm like, are you seriously hung up on that? Like with OG, with all the education, with the evolution of it, we're still talking about that? And it's like, yeah, they are in markets, in recreational markets. Like, are we talking about There's just such a line. I would never walk into a store to buy weed ever.

3:59:10SpeakerNobody here would. Maybe a lot of people listening to this, it's split up in a different way that I'm just not thinking about. Maybe it's 50-50. Maybe half the people do go in. But it's the consumer that needs to go into the store that says, hey, I really want... Thank you so much for joining us.

3:59:50SpeakerI literally walk out of the house, forget half the shit I'm supposed to bring. I might turn the wrong way a couple of times. You know, I'm literally fucking like, what did I just do to myself? You know, but I love to smoke. And, you know, so I think we all share this in common, you know? Yeah. But Josh, I mean, the thing is, the people on this call aren't going into retail because premium weed isn't being sold at retail right now, at least in the US.

4:00:16SpeakerRight. It's just it's I don't know, man. I beg to differ. I think that there are people out there selling some really fucking fire. Yeah, but they're not. But it's not driving their business. That's the thing. It's not right. They're selling. I just can't speak for every market. It's so different. We could dive into Florida, New Jersey, California, all completely different. Washington, you know, so these things are unique to themselves as legalization happens.

4:00:42SpeakerAnd there's a little bit of a road going still. I mean, to answer Marcus's question, I have lots of hope. And I think the education process is what we're all struggling with. And I think that when you, the folks that are going into retail, unfortunately are, they have to, right? They're tearing things, right? There's Budweiser to craft beers. There's, you know, there's cheap tequila to, you know, expensive tequila.

4:01:10SpeakerAnd you just have to sort of offer that all at the legal retail level, but it's being driven by the wrong people. It's being driven by a label. And we smoke too much to go in. You ever go into a store? This is why we don't go. I'll tell you right here. You walk into a store. You say, that looks great. That smells great. Whatever it is, I've heard about it.

4:01:30SpeakerI'm going to buy it. You buy it. It's $60. You open it. You pour it out. And to me, it's not even two joints. And I'm like, how do fucking people even afford this? I don't even understand how. It translates, you know.

4:01:43BubblemanIt's definitely the harsh part of legalization, there's no doubt. The good part, which I've told this story once before, sitting with my buddy Andy, we're in his car, we've got our pivots from Puffco. I gave him one. I was like, this is a gift from Puffco. I want you to have it. We each got our pivots. And I'm like, we got to load some dabs. And I had forgotten all my dabs at his place in the interior.

4:02:09BubblemanAnd we were like an hour and a half away from that place about to go crush fresh crab at his friend's Chinese food restaurant that we were in the parking lot of. And we had no dabs. And we're sitting there going, holy shit, we have no dabs. And we're just in downtown, the east side of Vancouver. And I look from the parking lot and I'm like, oh, look at that.

4:02:29BubblemanRight across the street, it was a cannabis store called Eggs Canna, E-G-G-S. They got this egg thing. I don't know what their trip is, but they had a bunch of stores. This was one of them. It was right on the corner. I said, it's a cannabis store. He says, oh, is there anything worthwhile? I'm like, we'll be able to find something, dude. Let's go. So he's like, all right.

4:02:47BubblemanSo we walk in this cannabis store. Thank you for watching.

4:03:12BubblemanAnd then, you know, I say, hey, do you have anything nice? And I think I've got a few friends that are in the market. I'm thinking of my friend Caitlin, who's an incredible hash maker. Her and her husband right now are pregnant with their first child. So they're about to have their first child. But she ran High Fidelity in the Oaken, in the Kootenays, sorry. And so they had like Rainbow Driver and some other really nice.

4:03:34BubblemanShe did a solventless diamonds with sauce. And I knew it was exceptional cannabis because their grower from Woody Nelson, which is the company that High Fidelity works within and gets all their biomass from, was my friend Ty that I used to run a black market grow with back in the day, like 25 to 30 years ago. And I'm sitting there thinking, holy fuck. So we buy this gram of rainbow driver, beautiful gram of live hash rosin that I know my friend Ty's grown the weed.

4:04:06BubblemanHe's the OG black market guy. Caitlin, the super hype, you know, female hash maker that's just like awesome. Thank you so much for joining us.

4:04:30BubblemanWe hit that flavor, both exhaled and just like the flavor profile and the instantaneous high and all of that history woven into the fabric of being able to fucking go and buy this product. And then afterwards, sitting there super cooked and watching people across the street, it's kind of a rainy Vancouver evening, you know, gray and dismal. Thank you so much for joining us.

4:05:22BubblemanThe fact that I bought it, even if it was, okay, listen, if it was 150 Canadian dollars, I would have been pissed off. It was about 60 to 70 Canadian dollars, which would be about 50 US dollars after tax. I'm sorry. Yes, I'd love for it to be cheaper, but that's pretty fucking good. 50 a G? Dude. Yeah.

4:05:42SpeakerYeah. That's not fucking bad at all. Holy shit. Yeah.

4:05:46BubblemanNo, don't get me wrong. The majority is what Andy was talking about. The majority of what's in that store is what Andy's talking about. And if you don't know which one to ask for, you could probably have a few bad accidents. That being said. In Canada, at least, and we've been doing legalization here, federal legalization since 2017. So we're in our seventh going on our eighth year.

4:06:09BubblemanAnd yes, you know, they fucked it all up the same way the MSOs fucked it up. So too did the alcohol people who were like, oh, new jobs in cannabis regulation. We want them. It's like the LCBD, the BCLDB, the OCS, the AGLC, all of these alcohol organizations basically took over for the distribution of cannabis and they don't understand that cannabis requires a cold chain. So right off the bat, that's been...

4:06:34BubblemanThat's a massive problem, right? When you go to a store and you see the one little fridge has fucking beverages in it with 10 milligrams of distillate in said beverages, and you're like, listen, dude, you are missing the point on this cold chain. We're all selling spinach, but no one's keeping it cold.

4:06:53SpeakerIt's fine. You know, Marcus, the supply chain's also fucked up for the flour side of the business. Of course it is. It's flour.

4:07:00BubblemanYou have to keep it cold.

4:07:02SpeakerYes, it's old. And the nerve to put a one-year Best Buy date on a pre-rolled joint. Really, really, it's a crime.

4:07:16BubblemanYeah, well, they don't understand the cold supply chain. Yeah. And they don't understand that cannabis does not get better with age. No, right. But hashish does. You can cure hashish to become... Thank you so much for joining us.

4:08:00BubblemanAnd yeah, it's still as soft today as it was when I made it. Yeah, it's just super duper soft, gummy, beautiful temple ball style hash. And this is about a hundred gram ball. So. I think, aside from Kaya, because I know the answer from Kaya, do you guys also see some level of importance? We've talked about the non-puffer to the puffer sort of chasm of purchasers for your product, customer base for you guys.

4:08:33BubblemanBut what about the hash lover versus the flower lover? You guys breeding specifically for hash production versus, and within that, What's only solventless or solventless, BHO? Are we also breeding out for some of the other processes? Because for me, I believe that the process that you choose should be based on the genetic telling you which process is ideal for it to be processed by, if that makes any sense.

4:09:02BubblemanYou're shaking your head, Shane.

4:09:06SpeakerAbsolutely. You know, so we do both, but A, we know that You know, hash is the future. It's in its 75, 80% of the market these days, right? So a lot of what we are very hash centric these days. We love flower. We will always do both. But, you know, a lot of what we're doing out of all of our rooms, we're doing constant test washes of every single phenom.

4:09:32SpeakerSo we are absolutely, you know, just going through every, every selection, getting the wash rate, seeing, you know, if that profile comes through. You know, so it's not just one or the other, but it's both. Absolutely. But, you know, things are definitely more hash centric, a little bit more forward these days at this point in time. We love rosin. I love flower, but I love rosin too.

4:09:58BubblemanYeah, it's been nice for me because only smoking full melt was very limiting for me, although I was lucky because I was only smoking kind of the best growers. But being able to smoke rosin, which is, it allows me to smoke a much lower grade of hash than I would ever kind of allow myself to by just having it a little further processed. So I have found rosin to be a blessing for sure.

4:10:29SpeakerAnd I love them both. I love, you know, I have to switch back and forth. I smoke a lot of flower and I smoke a lot of hash too. But, uh, you know, I, I, flower just wrecks me. Like how I can do breast milk rosin all day long and just function. I'm like, eh, just keep on doing it. But when I start smoking that joint that's in Josh's hand here, like shit, like it's a, it's a game changer.

4:10:51SpeakerRight. Um, and it's, it's, it's just, it's, it's so amazing to watch these compounds and, You know, you could smoke at 14, 15% or like that. And just, it's amazing how florid you'll be, right? Compared to, you know, smoking 98%, you know, concentrate. It's just like day and night.

4:11:10BubblemanLove it. Yeah, no, they're definitely different. They affect us differently. And thank God, variety is the spice of life and people should have access to all the variety.

4:11:19SpeakerRight. And cannabis is ultimately subjective. That's one of the coolest things, right? We all have different opinions about it and it treats us completely different, right? Oh, yeah.

4:11:30BubblemanMan, I can't believe we went over. We've been talking for four hours and 13 minutes. How sweet is that? We're going to have to do another one when the whole team is together. We'll have to get Ghost on here as well.

4:11:43SpeakerYeah, we do. We do.

4:11:46BubblemanBut really, listen, awesome to chat with you guys. And I appreciate you spending this much time with us and sharing about the project. And once again, Kaya, if you just send me all that sort of contact information, I'll just pop it right into the description of the video the minute it's done. And then it'll all be there. And that way, if you guys want to know where you can find these guys, there'll be a list of little events that they're about to be.

4:12:12BubblemanNot little, actually, some of the biggest events. Some of the cannabis events that are happening from, I think they mentioned Spanibus in Balbao in March in Barcelona, and they mentioned the MJBiz conference in Vegas. If I get my waiver in time, I will also be at the MJBiz conference hanging out with these guys. So, yeah, fingers crossed, man. I've been waiting just like 28 years or so to come back down to Vegas.

4:12:39SpeakerPatience is a virtue, Marcus, huh?

4:12:41BubblemanYes, well, I'm putting it to the test. I'm putting it to the test. I'll wait only two more years. Only two more years. No, I'm hoping in a month or less to get this thing and be able to... Thank you so much for watching.

4:13:14BubblemanI also want to thank Bubble Bags and I want to thank Puffco and I want to thank the Press Club for sponsoring Hash Church. You guys are awesome. And yeah, I can't say enough about both Puffco and the Press Club. They've been amazing partners and sponsors. And like I said before, bubble bags are off 50% off right now. So go check that out. And yeah, this show will be up and Adam and running on all the podcasts.

4:13:43BubblemanI'll get it loaded as soon as I can later today. And otherwise, thank you guys all really for coming in and sharing time with us on Hash Church. Let's make it happen again soon for a part two where we get the whole crew, talk a little bit about what you guys are doing, maybe, you know, three to six months down the road and see, see, See what's changed with the Arcana Group.

4:14:05BubblemanMay the full melt bless your bowl sooner than later for everyone watching. And we'll see you, geez, in about seven days. We'll be here at 9 a.m. right here in this seat.

4:14:17SpeakerThank you very much, everybody. Thank you, Marcus. Thank you, Marcus. Thank you, Marcus. Thanks, guys. Take care, everybody. Much love.

4:14:27BubblemanPeace out.