Schedule 3 Debate and Cannabis Policy

0:05Archive SeedsSetting up.

0:11BubblemanGet that in there. Let's record.

0:22BubblemanAll right, there we are. Look at that. I made it work. Sorry about that, guys. I'm going to have to do a quick little, let's just shut that down real quick. I set up this massive new hard drive onto my computer. So now my computer is like moving at a, I don't know, a mile a minute here. Welcome everyone to Hash Church season 11 episode 50. Holy shit, we've damn near done 50 of these here this year.

0:49BubblemanSo I'm just going to get the crew in because they're all in the old YouTube channel. Something happened today with the stream key when I did my edit actually last night when I set it up or two nights ago. So my apologies. But I will get things started here right away. Just wanna make sure everyone is in the room. We're gonna start as we always do by thanking our sponsors, man.

1:15BubblemanI mean, listen, I don't wanna say we couldn't do it without them because I did do it without them for 10 years, but it has been very helpful. Thank you so much for joining us.

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3:44BubblemanThat ended me carrying my glass rig, torch, dab right, banger basket, all of this ridiculous shit can just be turned into one little electronic unit. Do I dab at home out of a rig? Sure. I still have mine set up. I love rig dabbing. I'm not saying that Puffco replaces it, but it certainly does on the go for me. Last and finally, certainly not least, we've got to shout out my company, Bubble Bags.

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5:06BubblemanThat Vegas aftermath damn near killed me, but I do feel pretty good now. I'm not going to lie. And I think we're going to get into it today. I have a feeling it's going to be an emotional day, just from going into the chat for a short period of time. Yeah, lots going on in the world of cannabis right now, obviously, with... The administration down there flirting with a Schedule 3.

5:32BubblemanI don't exactly know what that means because Schedule 1 seems to be complete and total bullshit. I mean, it's available everywhere. You can just buy it at stores throughout the US. Fuck, for the longest time you guys had it at gas stations through the farm bill. And so I think a lot of people think when this schedule three thing happens, everything's going to revert back and we're going to lose all access.

5:55BubblemanAnd I have a hard time believing that Pandora's box can be closed again, but we will see. We've got some smart people coming on today to discuss such things. And I guess in the meantime, I will welcome Mr. Caleb Chen to the room, as well as Mr. Ryan Lee, a.k.a. Chimera.

6:14Ryan Dank AfThank you for having us before the smart people get here.

6:19BubblemanWell, you know, I'm always the least smart person, so I like to start it off. Uh-oh. A smart guy just came in.

6:27Ryan Dank AfA smart guy just appeared.

6:28Etienne FontanThere we go.

6:30BubblemanThat was early, too. It's like, you said smart people, and he came in right away holding a fucking molecule. Jesus Christ.

6:38BubblemanWho, me? Who, me?

6:41Ryan Dank AfYes, you. I was going to say, I exclusively use bubble bags for making cash. So thank you to Brecht Hennies and the Buckle Bag Company. Dude, you were one of the first people I sold bubble bags to. I know. I got the original char-sewn hand-sewn set. But, you know, so I've been along for the journey and watched the innovation, and there's no doubt that you took that concept and expanded it into something really special.

7:10Ryan Dank AfSo have to do the hat tip to Marcus. How are you, Mr. Sheldon? Dr. Sheldon, I'm sorry.

7:17SpeakerOh, all good. Doing well. Doing well. What do you think about this? It seems like the light is shining behind your brilliantly lit head.

7:30Ryan Dank AfWhat do you think about this whole potential scheduling shuffle that's going down? Is this also just a big attempt for Donald Trump to pump stocks?

7:42SpeakerThanks for asking. Well, I said it before, I'll say it again. Moving a plant that people can grow themselves to Schedule 3 is absolutely fucking ridiculous, right? So people are going to rely on a doctor's prescription to go buy some MSO grown mids. At Walgreens? I don't think so. The trap market is going to win all day long. But do people rely on that now? I don't believe that rescheduling to Schedule 3, I think it's dead on arrival because pharmaceutical companies, which are the ones that are FDA registered to sell schedule three substances aren't ready to do this from the get-go.

8:27SpeakerAnd so I think the MSOs hope that they're just going to be takeover targets so the pharmaceutical companies could spread their GLP or GMP blanket over the top of these MSOs. And yeah, just grow marginal weed, which isn't, yeah, I think it's going to fail. And what Mojave said last week too was really, Thank you for watching.

9:14SpeakerAnd I think I'll just finish on the note that it's interesting in the beverage sector, right? Ryan, it's like the beverage sector that's on the distiller side, which is in Mitch McConnell's back pocket, the distillers, the bourbon people, people who make spirits for a living. They look at cannabis beverages as being, you know, a threat to them. So every time someone pops a cannabis beverage, that's one less threat.

9:44SpeakerShot of booze or beer that they're going to drink, right? So those people want to see it go away. But the distributors who are already entrenched in this network, who have the distribution supply chains and the bottling companies and the factories to them, nano emulsion of cannabinoid is just a functional ingredient. Thank you so much for joining us.

10:30SpeakerBig beverage itself. The distillers are against it, but the distributors totally want it.

10:37Ryan Dank AfIt's such a stupid thing, too, because the view that people are using THC at the expense of alcohol is just completely wrong, right? I mean, the new generation of kids that are coming up, they don't want alcohol. They're not using alcohol to the same degree as our generation and older generations did.

10:56SpeakerWell, but don't you think if they go into an establishment that's serving... A THC beverage and myself, I would probably choose a THC beverage. I'd probably also grab a stout or an IPA, but, you know, I mean, I'd be curious and I'm sure that in a certain population, people are choosing a THC based beverage over alcohol for the buzz, right?

11:24Ryan Dank AfThere are some, there's no doubt about that. But I think my point I was trying to make is that They are different screens now, and there's a lot of the younger generation of kids that don't use alcohol, right? And so I would argue that they're not the same population. Sure, there is a shared population where some people might use it one over the other, but I think that a lot of the kids that just don't, they don't use alcohol the way that our generations do.

11:49Ryan Dank AfRight.

11:50SpeakerSo I think the thing that's made the beverages possible, Ryan, and this is kind of cool. I know a little bit about this is is the the nano emulsification technology, you know, like about five years ago, it was somewhat trivial to make a nano emulsion. But, you know, to make one that not only is stable and holds its potency while the can is sitting on the shelf, but also one that doesn't impact taste or flavor.

12:17SpeakerMy God, if you were tasting beverages like five years ago, they tasted horrible, especially the ones that maintained potency. They tasted like Listerine or some shit like that. Keith Cola did it.

12:32BubblemanKeith Cola tasted the same five years ago as it did today, and they're the number one beverage in the U.S. Well, I can point you to beverages that have little to no aftertaste at all.

12:44SpeakerI know that nano emulsion that we developed had no bitter aftertaste, had no issue with stability, and up to like 50 milligrams, we had good stability in the can. The canning process itself, Marcus, is a little bit abusive to some of these formulations, and... Oh, I know.

13:01BubblemanI was just at the Keef Cola facility in Vegas. I went and met with the owners there. And they seem to be quite excited about federal legalization. I did want to make one point about your stuff, because what you said, I would agree with everything you said, Dr. Mark, if it meant that, like, currently, Schedule 3 is Well, right now it's Schedule 1. You're not allowed to, it's an abuse, it's a high level for abuse, no medical value, yet it's available all throughout the U.S. as a recreational and a medical drug.

13:41BubblemanSo we know that the current regulation of Schedule 1 is not being enforced whatsoever. And so, like Tony Neg said in the chat room, Schedule 3 doesn't mean they're going to put everything back in Pandora's box and try to control it. I suspect maybe they'll do a little bit with medical, but it's not going to change the way cannabis, like they just can't put it back in the box.

14:05BubblemanIt's not going to make it like Like way worse, in my opinion. It's the closest thing to decriminalization. Schedule three is the last point of removing it completely from schedule. Whereas schedule one is the worst. Is there, yeah, schedule five.

14:22SpeakerYeah, there's schedules that are down there. But the point is, it's not dangerous, so it doesn't need to be controlled. And I think No, but it's currently schedule one. That's going to be the wild card. It's currently schedule one. I think what Trump can instruct RFK to do, and I believe there's legal precedence for this, Marcus, is that they can have, it doesn't even need to be by presidential order, I think.

14:47SpeakerDon't quote me on this. I'm not a legal scholar, constitutional scholar, but I think the Department of HHS from a letter from RFK himself can basically remove it from the schedule by making an exception. They did so with caffeine. So caffeine, we talked about this, I think, last week. Caffeine is an active ingredient of a migraine medicine and some weight loss drugs. But in order for like Mountain Dew and Coca-Cola and five hour energy drink to be able to fortify their products for caffeine, they had to like carve it out.

15:22SpeakerSo I think that that could be maybe what's coming on Monday is some kind of carve out. You know, I don't know. Again, like I would think that what the easiest thing to do because rescheduling is so problematic because there are no dispensaries that are FDA approved to dispense. Right.

15:43BubblemanBut it's schedule one right now, Dr. Mark. It's schedule one and there's dispensaries all over the country. Are you not seeing that? I get it.

15:51SpeakerSo those dispensaries are regulated under state laws. That's right. So there are state laws that regulate under schedule. This is an effort to do something across the entire country. Is it? Which again, given the patchwork, I don't think so either. Can I just jump in?

16:08BubblemanI think that's the assumption that makes Mark's points valid. Without that assumption, they collapse because we're currently under a much worse schedule than And it's available everywhere.

16:22Collin PalmerSo I just said, like, I posted something on LinkedIn the other day.

16:26SpeakerThat's the important thing, right? So what they're trying to do is harmonize a federal law so it's equal in all the states. I don't think so.

16:36Collin PalmerSo it appears like that, right, Dr. Mark? But like I posted something the other day that I'll stand on. This is not legalization. This is a balance sheet test. And what I mean by that is that those that have the money right now are getting it shot. And it's only a handful of these operators that are getting a shot at this. To do sort of what Mark is saying, but get their hands and their tentacles into these channels, in hopes that if the balance sheet works, meaning they generate enough ROI and the tax dollars ensue from this, and this is some really deep stuff, those donors to those political parties then get in the room and they get to dictate what happens next in terms of a legalization.

17:17Collin PalmerBut right now, they have to prove themselves as an industry, as a business. And I, I don't, I agree with Marcus, like there, it's a, it's a lot of, a lot of false narratives are being presented on the, on the guise of legalization. Show me where the language shows you where that says legalization, because I don't, I personally don't see it.

17:38BubblemanWell, listen, this, this is the one thing that made me feel good, like we were moving in the right direction. And I'm, I'm like, Dr. Mark, I'm not a bloody, you know, expert. Person that studies the stuff for a living. I really don't know shit about it. My opinion matters very little. I will admit that. But I saw Kevin Sabet losing his fucking mind on X the other day over this schedule three, and it made me feel like it was the right direction to go.

18:02BubblemanI was like, this motherfucker hates this. We gotta go forward. I don't know much about that guy, but I know he's a pretty big piece of shit.

18:13Collin PalmerYou know, Mark, I feel like a lot of things you said is right, though. Like, you're calling it right. Like, you know, the industry in terms of beverage and ingestibles, call it. There's a, you know, like, I understand what you're saying, Ryan. Like, there's a new gen. I think that always exists. Like, there's always a sub- You know, culture that's going to be like, I don't drink.

18:36Collin PalmerIt's just not about it's just not what we do. But I do believe that there is a whole subclass of people that do use substance. And it is sort of it is kind of going in and out. And essentially up, you know, doing an upwelling of the alcohol industry. Like look at how Southern Glazer just bought into New York City. Like they own Brooklyn now. That would have never happened from a distribution point of view if sales weren't so far down to Mark's point.

19:05Collin PalmerSo there's a lot of these like big plays that have happened. That Mark, I think, is kind of like talking about, right? And I think he's not wrong because I see it too. I'm just talking specifically United States because that's my lens on it. But it seems like there is people that do want another choice. And when given that choice in the same aisle, they will go towards a cannabinoid forward drink.

19:30Ryan Dank AfSo we've had a lot of stuff happen in the last month, two months, call it. One of them being the redefinition of hemp under the Farm Bill when they reopened the government. And so I think like relying on what's happened in the last two years and just saying, you know, kind of saying, oh, the status quo of the last two, three years has been this, that it's going to continue.

19:52Ryan Dank AfThat's like totally a false assumption, right? And I got to start, again, I want to start this by admitting, you know, everybody knows or people that watch this know I'm Canadian. I'm not American. I don't have a big, I'm not incredibly informed. About this. And so I rely on friends that are more informed. And I had a conversation with this with ATN. It's a shame that he's not here because he had a really good take on this whole thing.

20:14Ryan Dank AfUm, and the one thing that he reminded me is that the 10th amendment applies when it, when it comes to cannabis and the 10th amendment is the separation of state and fed powers, right? Everything that was written in the constitution is under the fed. Everything else falls to the state level. And obviously there's nothing about cannabis in the fed, right? In the constitution. So this is while, while it is a shift in federal policy, nothing changes in regards to like, this doesn't legalize anything in, in states that don't have a medical or state regulated program, right?

20:48Ryan Dank AfLike they will fall back under state regulation and with the redefinition of hemp under the farm bill or app post farm bill in this, you know, refunding bill. The government funding bill that was just passed. All of these beverages that we're talking about, they will become illegal. Right. Because they're under, they're, they're greater than whatever it is, four milligrams per container or 0.4 milligrams.

21:13Collin PalmerIf that still stands right on, on the right. So like there's been a couple of new deals.

21:17Ryan Dank AfAll we can do is talk about what is, how is it written today? Right. And of course.

21:20Collin PalmerYeah, yeah, no, you're totally right. So, so.

21:22Ryan Dank AfSo of course there's going to be all these, of course there's going to be all these court challenges that, and lawsuits that happen with regard to what happened a couple of months ago with regards to the redefinition of HAMP. That's all yet to play out. All we can do is talk about the way it is today, right? And, you know, ATN also mentioned some other things that I thought were actually really quite insightful and important in this whole thing.

21:46Ryan Dank AfI follow this lady on Twitter and she's been talking about how the movement of cannabis products into Schedule 3 will allow people that are in state hospital facilities to access cannabis where they can't currently. Right, because cannabis being on Schedule 1 prevents these people with these very severe disorders. A lot of hospitals take the stance that, no, it's a Schedule 1 drug. You can't have it in our hospital.

22:14Ryan Dank AfRight, so people that could benefit from even like cannabis oils or like edible oils, they can't access those drugs while they're in these state facilities.

22:25Collin PalmerSo talk to me about Sativex and what, you know, David had done and how that, and Dr. Mark, chime in here a little bit because I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, because it feels to me like we have access if that's, if those are the two, you know, examples here, A and B, you know, why?

22:45Ryan Dank AfThey're regulated. So of course they can be used. But then you're right.

22:49Collin PalmerBut I'm just I'm trying to open up the conversation of like, why aren't there more? And this is maybe directed to Dr. Mark. He maybe knows more about this than I. Why aren't there more approved drugs?

23:00Ryan Dank AfWell, it costs a billion dollars to get that thing laid out.

23:06Collin PalmerYou know, like I think it's important for everyone to hear this. You know, that's why I'm asking the question. I understand why. I just think it's important to talk about it.

23:13SpeakerYeah, so it's a billion dollars to basically get a drug approved through the FDA process, give or take. And it could take up to 10 years, even though that they have tons of things that they can bridge in terms of tox and stuff like that. But it's interesting, Colin, were you on the episode when Wendy and Colton was on? Yeah, so Colton's formulation is a one-to-one. Right, and I don't know if you remember, but Ethan Russo was here, but he left the...

23:47SpeakerHe left the chat before we could pose the question.

23:50Collin PalmerYeah, I remember you asked the question. He had left it for that.

23:54SpeakerSo Colton is a classic case of Crohn's. And I'm not sure. I mean, I don't know much about the symptomology or at least how to treat Crohn's. But it sounds like through a lot of trial work that Colton has arrived at this one-to-one formulation. So the reason why I'm bringing this back up for discussion is because You mentioned Sativex. So Sativex having approval in other countries, including in the EU and elsewhere, they do have, you know, a safety package that shows that stuff like we know most of these cannabinoids are, you know, notoriously not toxic, you know?

24:38SpeakerRight. And so, yeah, so I think, I think, so to answer your question, Colin, it would take a company To basically take an NDA. NDA is what we call a new drug application approved by the FDA to then basically repeat what we already know, which is that a one-to-one formulation will work to treat Crohn's, for example. But like on the other side of that, on the other side of that, of that FDA approval, whether it's 10 years and a billion dollars out or whatever, some fraction of those numbers.

25:17SpeakerA company's got to be able to size up that market and say, okay, we're spending all this money to put this thing over the goal line. Are we going to be able to be profitable here? And pharmaceutical companies like profits in the tens of billions of dollars, just one or two billion doesn't cut the mustard for them. So I think that one of the things that, that I think the point you bring up, Brian, is really good, which is that increasing Access of cannabis-based medicines to patients, however it happens, is always a good thing.

25:51SpeakerAnd I think doctors in general are for moving it to Schedule 3 because now finally the government is admitting That there is accepted medical use. So let's talk about that for a second. So it's not just, it has to be demonstrated medical use. I mean, it was demonstrated to the examiners at the US Patent and Trade Organization when they examined the US government's own patent filed in 2002 that CBD and other cannabinoids are neuroprotective, right?

26:24SpeakerThey quench reactive oxygenated species, which cause all kinds of damage and traumatic brain injury events and other things. So this is the kind of thing where it's like, okay, accepted medical use. What does that mean? Well, Marinol and Epidiolex are FDA approved drugs. Those have been medically accepted, right? The active ingredients are derived from a plant. That is on schedule one where there's no accepted medical use.

26:54SpeakerGet the fuck out of here, right? I mean, at the end of the day, the hypocrisy needs to become unwound. That the source of these active ingredients in these FDA approved drugs are coming from this plant that you're claiming has no medical benefit when we all know, everyone knows, that there's plenty of medical benefit to cannabis and we're still trying to figure shit out. The only, the last thing I'll say in regard to this current thing is, you know, what I find most fascinating about everything going on when it comes to the current administration I think the biggest question I have is where's the grift?

27:35SpeakerIf he's going to push this forward, there's a grift. There has to be a grift. There has to be a way of him lining his own fucking pockets because that's what this guy is. He's the chief executive officer of the United States of America and he only does shit that benefits him and his criminal family. So that's the question we should be asking is what is the grift if he's pushing this forward because there's always a grift.

28:02Ryan Dank AfHe's got his own brand. It doesn't have to be direct payment. It could also be a quid pro quo. And the one thing that we haven't mentioned is the topic of 280E, right? And for people that don't know, 280E is essentially a law that prevents people that are involved in illegal sales of illegal products or illegal drug products from writing off their expenses against their, um, against their revenues.

28:26Ryan Dank AfRight? So again, you can obviously talk about this much more deeply than I can, but I know the company that I was working with down in California, All of our, like a whole bunch of our costs couldn't be written off by their accountants against their revenues. So you end up with these massively inflated tax bills, right? And so all of these MSOs, they will, just because it gets moved from Schedule 1 to Schedule 3 will allow 280E to be dismantled and they'll save hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes every year, right?

28:59Etienne Fontan$5 billion, $5 billion.

29:02Ryan Dank AfYeah, so they can save the money. They can slip some money into Donald's pocket some other way. That's all I'm saying is it doesn't have to be like a direct, you know, he doesn't have to profit directly. It can be through a quid pro quo. So, ATN, you should, you know, you've got a really good take on this from our conversation today. You can chime in, offer some thoughts.

29:25Etienne FontanWhat are we talking about, ladies and gentlefolk?

29:27Ryan Dank AfSchedule three and how it impacts, how it's going to change things.

29:31Etienne FontanIt's not going to change anything. It's going to change taxes. It sure is upsetting, Kevin. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on. For the most part, for nobody. I mean, just being honest, right? For about 10,000 companies and ancillaries, it matters. Why does it matter? Well, yours truly has been kicked out of 38 banks, right? You know how frustrating it is when you're doing your payroll and the day before payroll...

30:00Etienne FontanDrops the banks like sorry you got to go here's your here's your entire everything right and yes yours truly has been hit with 280e as well and it was just for one year but they found that I had a loan that went into another year so then it went into there and so you know something that turned out to be you know about a couple of million turned into three almost four million dollars In taxes just for one year and they can go for every single year.

30:30Etienne FontanSo it affects cannabis businesses. So in my opinion, somebody threw a whole bunch of money at Trump. who's a cannabis business because they made a whole bunch of money and he is the pay-to-play president so somebody paid and they're gonna be allowed to play now everybody's like oh well does this this shuts down the 10th amendment realities everybody has in their states no No, everything continues. It's normal.

31:03Etienne FontanOne question at 10. The pharmaceutical companies have already had access to this cannabis. Okay. Just so you know. And what are they created? Exactly what Mark Sheldon said. They created Epidiolex. They created Sativex. Nobody wanted it. Nobody was diverting it. Nobody's in the dead parking lots going, yo, dog, you got some Marinol for me? No one, no one wanted that shit. Even myself who tried it and had it didn't like it.

31:30Etienne FontanIt self disintegrates. It literally, because of the oil that it's in, if you save it, it will not last a year in your refrigerator before it self destructs. Okay. And the reason is, is back then it cost me in the aughts $1,500 just for 60 pills. Do the math. $1,500. And these were the tens, the 10 millimeters, the oranges, the strongest. And what did we all find out?

31:58Etienne FontanTHC isn't it. It's all the other cannabinoids and everything else that we wanted. So it's going to help big businesses. It's going to help the MSOs because the MSOs are tired of getting hit with these taxes. And I think, Mark Sheldon, you did a wonderful job of explaining what 280 is and what it has been for businesses. But that is only for Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.

32:22Etienne FontanOnce it is now Schedule 3, it's gone. Poof. And then banking opens up. And then real sharks come in. The fuck around sharks have been around. Now the big boys come in, but the big boys have been playing, right? Altree has been there. They've been swinging their elephant dick around for a while, so it's not going to stop. It's only going to continue. So this was a roadblock getting them in their way, and now they're moving in the fast lane where the rest of us are going.

32:52Etienne FontanCan we just decriminalize this and get it off of scheduling altogether and You know, free our people who are in jail for this plant and get our veterans growing this plant for people in need. All right. Sorry, you asked. I just woke up. So I diatribed. Well, we appreciate it.

33:10BubblemanI definitely appreciate hearing from you.

33:13Ryan Dank AfThere's this doctor in Oregon that I follow on Twitter, and she's been talking about how She has a patient who has really severe autism, non-functional, and she's in a state-run facility. And when she's out of the facility, they can give her access to cannabis-based medicines. But when she's in the facility, she can't. The facility won't let her bring in the drugs for this patient.

33:35Etienne FontanBecause it's a Schedule I drug.

33:37Ryan Dank AfRight.

33:39Etienne FontanThat's not going to change. At all in the sense that it's not going to allow interstate commerce.

33:46Ryan Dank AfNo, it's not interstate commerce, but Oregon has a state-run medical program, and the patient can still not access those medicines while she's in the state-run facility.

34:00Ryan Dank AfHer argument is that with the movement of cannabis to Schedule 3, that she now will be able to give This, you know, this inpatient.

34:11Etienne FontanIt will have to go to the state medical board, but yes, yes.

34:15Ryan Dank AfSo there is some benefit, right? Like I'm not, I'm not saying this is like the end all be all win, but I think that there is some benefit.

34:23Etienne FontanFor narrow parts of the population. Sure. Yeah. Right. But let's just leave it at that. Right. Because it's going to help for stoners.

34:30SpeakerFor stoners.

34:30Etienne FontanOkay.

34:31SpeakerBut for patients, that's a big, that's a big fucking deal.

34:35Ryan Dank AfYeah. Yeah. Holy shit.

34:38SpeakerAs Sam would remind us, there's nothing wrong with getting stoned. Right. That's right.

34:42BubblemanBut he would also remind us he doesn't care who profits.

34:46Etienne FontanRight. And well, that's the reason why we don't forget about that one. That's one of the two pillars of why we created the National Cannabis Industries Association America is because we were all we were activists. We came from activists. And this is where I'm looking at you, the THCA and the hemp industry fucked around and found out in the sort of sense that we pulled our sources together and we created different organizations.

35:10Etienne FontanWe pulled our money into those organizations. Those organizations went and pushed the law. This was our way of doing activism financially behind the scenes so that we could use the profits that we're doing because back prior to 2018, we had to act as not for profits. We could not register at the United States federal level as not for profits, but within our states, we had to act as so.

35:35Etienne FontanSo if we had 20 million come in, we had to spend 20 million by the end of that December 31st, you know, 1159. Okay, that was that reality. Now that it is all for profit, that's completely gone. Where we were charitable giving and trying to inspire that people decided, oh, I need more money. And they didn't put it into activism. They didn't put it into organizations. They didn't put it into lobbying because one of my buds that I know from Leap is the last lobbyist on Capitol Hill because everybody else gave the fuck up because None of the organizations have money anymore.

36:15Etienne FontanNone of those THC or A organizations were contributing to anybody. They were all like pocketing and making more shit to get out of their bathtubs. And next thing you know, you know, why did this all happen? It's because of the bad actors. Thank you for watching.

36:51Etienne FontanOkay. Point where they were like, yeah, we can't fuck with people helping patients who are cancer and AIDS patients. But somewhere along the way that got lost and that got forgotten. Whereas people like us have it. We still do it every day, but everybody else is more concerned about dollars than helping each other. And we came from the, uh, we were called compassion clubs originally before we were called dispensaries.

37:15Etienne FontanWe're called compassion clubs because we showed compassion. Okay. Yeah. Love, care, what you did, what you did with Hillary, right? You decided, eh, I can't profit off this. I can't do that. That's just not right. Well, that's the same inner fucking monologue that drove us. We're like, eh, it's not right. We should be doing this. Eh, that's too expensive. We should probably give some away to about 250 people a week.

37:42Etienne FontanYeah, that's right.

37:45BubblemanSo two questions. You mentioned you have the pay to play president. What is lobbying?

37:54BubblemanIs lobbying not where you pay to play? Because hasn't lobbying existed for like all of the presidents or is lobbying like just new for Donald Trump?

38:02Collin PalmerThere's front door pay to play and back door.

38:05BubblemanYeah, but you don't think that back door has been around since the beginning of time? You don't think those other presidents were taken back door? Not through crypto. I never said through crypto. I'm just saying like, are you that naive to think that like George Bush Jr. and like Clinton and Obama and all these other...

38:24Etienne FontanThere was oversights in place that Donald Trump first did was dismantle. He removed all the oversight people. I suspect the other ones were still taking money. I know I would have been. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me finish on that thought. Because you make a great point because there was a sting in 1979 where they literally went around to a whole bunch of fucking Congress people and made a whole bunch of bribes and like half of them took money.

38:52Etienne FontanOkay, so yes, there definitely is shit that happened behind the scenes, but there wasn't enough. There wasn't MSOs at that size that had the type of money that True Leave has now. You know what I'm saying? To really throw around that kind of bribery. Yes, there were people running tonnage all throughout the United States risking everything.

39:14BubblemanWhat kind of money was thrown around during 9-11? Like how much money do you think got like stolen out of the country when those buildings went down? Billions. You know, trillions, I would say. I would go above billions. Now, my second point was... Well, through war, trillions. You mentioned that there was no... Nobody wanted Epidiolex, but they sold 648,000 bottles of it last year, which is like almost a million people.

39:43Ryan Dank AfThat's a lot. Yeah, 972 million.

39:46BubblemanI don't know many dispensaries that sold that many bottles of anything.

39:52Collin PalmerWell, well, I guess perspective, like, because when I hear a million, I'm like, yeah, it sounds like a lot, but.

39:57BubblemanWell, it is when you think it's patients. Listen, we all agree if it's two people and their patients, that's a lot.

40:04Collin PalmerSo I'm just saying like a population, it feels like to Dr. Mark's point, like if or whoever said ATN maybe said it like nobody wants it, but a few. But to your point, to Marcus, your point, like it's important that we recognize that a million people did get medicine that year, right? But there's a bigger...

40:25SpeakerAnd how many people took a drop of CBD tincture last year?

40:29Collin PalmerRight. That's kind of what I was thinking. Well, that's what I mean.

40:33BubblemanAnd it's Schedule 1. So there's my point. How many people did take a drop of CBD tincture under Schedule 1 last year, Dr. Mark? 100%. That's why I'm not worried about Schedule 3. I also live in a federally regulated cannabis environment. Scenario here in Canada. And trust me, when it was happening, people were complaining. And I'm just thinking, what are you fucking complaining about more access?

41:00SpeakerYeah. Let's just put the patients aside for a second and just think about stoners. Are stoners going to buy mids from MSO grown mids at Walgreens? That business model is going to fail miserably.

41:16BubblemanWell, that would mean a business model that it was the only option, but if you can grow your own plants, if you can buy recreationally, if you can do these other things like we can in Canada, You don't have to do that. You just have options.

41:29SpeakerI think, Marcus, this is again, it's the Fed trying to catch up with the states. You know, they've always said the states are like the laboratory of the democracy. That's where the democracy is really happening, right? So even like if you think about like even like in Ohio, Ohio put it on the ballot. And a majority voted for it. They wanted legal cannabis. And look where they are.

41:52SpeakerThey're stuck right now because, again, it's all a fucking Chad, Brad fucking game of who's going to make the money. Follow the money, man. It's all about the money. And the other thing I just wanted to say just to capture this thought is that, you know, It's great to think again, like when we had our episode on compassion, you know, compassion's a verb. And there's no question about it.

42:18SpeakerAmong our viewers and among most people who tune in to Hash Church and Hash Church, you know, panelists, we are all compassion. And we're in this for the right reason. You know, we all had that moment in our life where we had an... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

42:59SpeakerBut it doesn't change kind of like our game, which is that there's still state regulated dispensaries and all that. That is what exactly what I was saying, Marcus, is that that would be an exception because there are no other dispensaries for schedule three substances. They're just not. They're just part. And again, like they're called pharmacies. I think Colin said this many times. There is no plant schedule three substance.

43:29SpeakerSo the schedule three substance is an active ingredient that's packaged into a pill that people can pop, man. So, I mean, I think the whole quality aspect about cannabis and terpene profiles and everything that we're all about, we're all about the heady goodness of the plant. And again, I'd like to see our government kind of catch up to where states are, which is that, look, our states have voted that the citizens in the state want this and they want access to it.

44:00SpeakerAnd we should be doing everything possible to minimize it. Look what they're doing in Michigan. They just jacked up the tax up to 24%. It's like, no, man, you're getting it all wrong. You want to send people to the dispensaries. You want to get this business going, populate. You know, these operators, because when you tax it by 24%, you're just going to go to your plug down the road who grows really heavy weed, who doesn't have to worry about Schedule 3, doesn't have to worry about Schedule 1.

44:31SpeakerHe's just doing his thing and producing his product. And I think we're all about that. The people in this room, I know, we're all about headiness, and we do want to help patients, and we don't want any kind of government regulation to limit access to patients. And if anything, we want the thing de-scheduled so we can really do what really needs to be done, which is lower all access bars that keep people from accessing goods.

45:00SpeakerI agree with that.

45:01BubblemanI agree with that. But three is better than one. It just has to be. One is the worst. It is absolutely terrible. Here's something to keep in mind.

45:10SpeakerMoving from one to three would now put it in writing with the government that there is accepted medical use. We all know that there's accepted medical use, right? But now they would be admitting it. The other thing, and Mojave pointed this out to me last week too, which was that Even at a low dose, that 0.4 milligrams. Speak of the devil. What's that? I said, speak of the devil.

45:34SpeakerHe's in the room. Oh, there's Mojave. So Mojave would say, right? Mojave, you said it better than I did, right? Which is that it's the government legalizing THC, albeit at a very low dose. They're still legalizing it, right? Yeah. What's up, Mo? How's it going, guys? Yeah, it's the first time we'll have actual legal products that are FDA approved, right? That's a significant step. I totally agree.

46:05SpeakerIf it's about taking away the plant from our backyard, that's the big issue. And I am a little concerned about that because here, like in California, for instance, in the past couple of years, the home grow portion of the market has vastly increased. Where it used to be a really small portion of people. And the funny thing is I'm thinking right now while you guys are talking about this, about compassion, about follow the money, the whole thing.

46:33SpeakerAnd the arc of home grow to commercial grow To MSO grow to, you know, full global, you know, that is, that's been a follow the money trajectory all along, right? Because in, in the seventies, when the first, you know, really in the sixties, my family started growing weed in the late, in the mid sixties and in our community in Big Sur, we really started growing it in earnest in the seventies and turned it into somewhat of a local commodity.

47:06SpeakerBut it was a back to the land group. It was a bunch of hippies living off grid. Yeah, they were trying to make money, but no one wanted to stop being a hippie living off grid. Everyone had already left their middle-class lifestyle to do this cannabis thing. And that was the ethos behind cannabis. It was a plant. Everyone should have access. And some people should be able to grow it commercially for money because not everybody can grow tomatoes in their backyard, for instance.

47:32SpeakerBut man, when the Reagan era came, And the gnarly push on camp and drug enforcement came. It brought in a whole new wave of people interested in cannabis, which was capitalism, pure and simple capitalism. They wore the same clothes often as the hippie back to the Landers. They moved into the same county and they bought a pickup truck, but they didn't move there for the same reasons my parents did in 1963.

48:03SpeakerRight. Some of them listen to Grateful Dead, don't they? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so anyway, so me as a cannabis person who's been in it from the very beginning through this whole arc, by the time it became a dispensary world in the in the late 90s and early 2000s, you saw some really sleazy characters involved in the business. Right. Just straight up, man. I mean, I can tell you stories about L.A. and dispensaries and doctors and everything where it was so gross.

48:31SpeakerIt just made you sick. You knew that it wasn't about medicine. And then so so there was this false assumption that we were on this trajectory for compassion and stuff when really it was still the same thing we said we want in the 60s. Just free the plant advocacy, advocacy for the plant and the user. I've been a part of an NDA, I mean, sorry, a NIH study on cannabis since 2014, right?

48:56SpeakerAnd a big component of that study was the Drug Policy Alliance, right? We'd have meetings every month at the Children's Hospital in LA, right? With the Dean of USC and all these, you know, we had cops there, we had everybody. It was really far out, right? And it's still ongoing. But I tell you, as soon as As soon as we voted on 64, the Drug Policy Alliance, every single person on that fucking team, gone.

49:27SpeakerWhat'd they do? They took a job for a cannabis company. Follow the money, follow the money, follow the money, right? So the advocacy was completely gone. Right. The momentum completely become a commercial opportunity. And nobody along this way, everyone was drunk on dollars. Nobody really realized that there wasn't a lot of money in cannabis because you don't really need to grow that much. It's all artificially inflated prohibition money.

49:55SpeakerAll of it. The actual amount to produce is so low. It's nothing. It's really, really cheap product and you don't need that much acreage of it to supply the whole world. So I think everyone is suddenly coming out of this weird dark age and going like, holy shit, there isn't that much money in cannabis. Yeah, it's a top cash crop, but that's all artificially inflated prohibition costs.

50:20SpeakerSo this last scramble here that we're all in right now, this panic, and you can feel it on this call right here. You know, there's an intense panic between farm bill and rescheduling and all the failing commodity price in all the state markets. Don't leave that out. Like the idea that the state markets are just going to continue with federal, you know, in a perfect world, it just doesn't match.

50:44SpeakerThe only way that it matches is the prices compress way, way down to very little and very few people actually grow it. Because that's what would have happened if we skipped all the way from the 60s to now. If the advocacy thing had happened from the beginning all the way to now, instead of this diversion into commerce, Then we wouldn't be sitting here going. So anyway, back to what Mark was pointing out is that now everyone's trying to scramble to figure out what the rules are.

51:11SpeakerWhat's the dosage? And I worked in Minnesota for years, which was really the hotbed of all of a lot of this weird gas station hemp products and beverage stuff. And the fact that they're agreeing on a 0.4 milligram package that can be sold interstate and FDA approved ingredients That's huge. That's a huge step in the right direction in terms of interstate commerce for a few brands. And that's the big message.

51:43SpeakerOnly a few people get to participate on this on the supply side, right? On the distribution and retail side, there's a whole bunch of opportunities. So now this is all in their court. So now all they have to do is change that 0.4 milligrams to five milligrams or 10 milligrams, and they've got a whole industry To work with. And the point four and the milligrams of the stuff that goes in the package, the cost of that, as you guys on this panel already know, is pennies.

52:12SpeakerA beverage, a 10 milligram beverage, the cannabinoids that went into that thing are like three cents. If that. If that, right? So this whole thing, it's the plant side, the production side, the grower side, the cultivation side, it's all in peril and in jeopardy, 100%. What we hope in terms of commerce, but what we hope is that we end up at the other end of this with patient access, yes, and the ability to continue to grow our own wheat and share it with our friends.

52:44BubblemanBingo. Well, we know one thing, all of those things are at risk, but the one thing that is not at risk Is cannabis. Cannabis will continue on regardless. And I can tell you coming from a federally regulated country, we all can grow plants. Everyone in our country that's above 19 or 20 years old can grow cannabis plants without a worry. You can just put them out on your deck, put them up on your roof, put them in your closet, put them wherever you want.

53:12BubblemanAccess was not cut off by federally regulated cannabis. And I think you're very right, Mojave. Like, A lot of these companies are still grasping on to these prohibition-based prices based on the prices they've had to pay for grow equipment and everything else, which is massively inflated. We thought when cannabis regulation, federal regulation came into Canada, we would see everything kind of get cheaper and this, that, and the other thing.

53:38BubblemanAnd it was like, no, that was the one thing they didn't want to let go of was prohibition-based pricing. They wanted to keep that $60 eighth all day long if they could. And it's just an interesting thing. I think cannabis, if it survived the gardens of Kafur, if it survived the Sufis having their teeth ripped out in the squares of Cairo in the 16th century, if it survived the DEA, if it survived all of this insane shit that it survived, I really think it's going to survive decriminalization, legalization, scheduleization, whatever you want to call it.

54:16BubblemanI think cannabis will survive. And I'm not sure about the businesses and the brands and all these other things. I'm a lifer. I'm in this forever. So regardless of what happens, I'll just keep trucking along and making sure that I can educate and teach people on how to make cash. That's always been the blessing for me, watching people's eyebrows go up when they have this realization of what it's like to take the resin off the plant and then, you know, inhale that into their lungs.

54:45BubblemanAnd I'm kind of here for it. Whatever happens, you know, young people will make this what they want to make it. And the rest of us, I suspect, will not be stopping anytime soon in enjoying cannabis. But well put, Mojave. Really well put.

55:01Collin PalmerListen, I'll go back on True Sinners chat tomorrow. Let's go. You know, like, close it all up. Go back to handles. Like, you know, like...

55:11SpeakerHey, I think, I think the home, I think the home grow thing is a really big point. And, and one of the reasons is, is, is let's all, let's be honest, home grow is also commerce. So big time, big time when I was a kid and you had six plants in the backyard, those were like six 50 or a hundred grand plants.

55:34Collin PalmerDude, you're not wrong.

55:35SpeakerYou're nailing it. And nowadays, dude, I know I have a gardener that I know who doesn't even smoke weed, pulls 10 pounds of plant. Jesus. Off of his six plants. Good on him. But he doesn't smoke weed. He does it 100% for commercial reasons because he's got 60 pounds of weed that he can sell legally or he can grow legally and now have to divert somehow. So I think that there could be a real strong push against Home Grow.

56:05SpeakerAnd in certain counties in California, there's no grow or it's indoor only, or there's certain rules where they're just like...

56:12BubblemanI could see it in California, but in Canada, what happened was the opposite. It became so available that people were like, Growing this is hard. I don't want to pay for lights and a tent and what, I can't go away now? Like I can't even go away or my plants die? Like I just see it time and time and time again. For a long time, John Burfellow was telling everyone, you got to grow your own medicine.

56:33BubblemanYou got to grow your own medicine. I'm like, dude, it is not as easy as one might think to grow their own fucking medicine. And when it's suddenly available at a thousand stores everywhere you're going, guess what's easier?

56:50Collin PalmerDo you guys think that the systems are increasingly more complex to test whether or not it's viable as a business? And it should go back to what we're talking about, where it's just like, yeah, you should just grow it. Because it feels like there's a lot of obstacles that You know, we come from, at least I know I come from a world where it wasn't a business until it was, right?

57:14Collin PalmerIt was just more of like, I grew tons of plants. I loved understanding what this plant was about. And then as we evolved, to your point, Mojave, somewhere along the line, it becomes commerce, right? And, you know, it seems to me that, you know, we lived through an era, all of us here, where pounds were $8,500, you know, and that is...

57:39Collin PalmerInsane. Like if you talk to... Criminal. It's criminal. Yeah, straight to jail right now. Like you start saying those prices, it's like straight to jail. You know, like you're meaning like you can't be talking about prices that high. You know, and, you know, now we'll fast forward to today in a structural system in the States and everyone's investing and putting brands and stickers up and all this stuff, you know, but the systems just don't work.

58:06Collin PalmerYou know, at the end of the day, there is no system that works. And what I hear just observing everyone talk is like, in everyone's experience, we all are saying the same thing. The systems don't work.

58:21Etienne FontanHas his hand raised? We're in a transition in the sense that exactly what you're saying. They're trying to set up systems to do what we did, and there is no system currently. We just saw, for those who are watching this week, Metric was sued in California and lost.

58:42Collin PalmerCan we talk about that for a sec?

58:43Etienne FontanAbsolutely, because that's what I was trying to lead into was that the only system now, what is metric? For those who don't know, metric is the track and trace system that the majority of us in the legal world have to deal with. It's a track and trace system from you, the grower, That has to have a tag on it, right? It's a tag that every plant is tagged with so that it is following it from literally its birth to when it goes out of the dispensary door.

59:16Etienne FontanSo this systems are usually set up and there's a very few companies that do these and service them. But it shows, and at least the courts have shown, is that metric in its current sense is still allowing what we used to do happen, right? They have a backdoor. They were doing things manually. They were allowing illegal transactions to happen. They were allowing people... Like Glass House to move their product out the back door because only what it was like 4% of their products was actually making the shelves and the rest of the product was going out the door.

59:54Etienne FontanOkay, well, enough people were like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, and metrics like what? Did you say something? Did you hear something? I didn't hear shit, man. And so Metric played the shell game trying to hide where the transactions were and weren't. And finally, the courts looked under the fucking hood and were like, hey, hey. Hey! Now, the guy they went after, in a little trouble, regardless.

1:00:21Etienne FontanBut, you know, he deflected and said, hey, you know, your system is incorrect, so how are you going after me when your system is fucked up? And the court's like, looked back at Metric and said, your system's fucked up. You gotta show us and you gotta fix your shit. So, Metric In California, the quote unquote standard that everybody lives on was just found in court to be faulty this week.

1:00:45Etienne FontanSo Colin has a very valid point. It's a very valid discussion, especially this week because many other states that we all live in and talk about all exist on metric, which means there's back doors currently in your system to allow product to go, which is all the THCA product that people are buying all out the United States, etc. That's been Converted to THC or whatever.

1:01:09BubblemanI don't think there's a system that doesn't have a backdoor because I know it's happening in Canada for a fact with licensed producers and we have an extremely strict system. Everything's under camera, this, that, and the other thing. You know, how hard is it to pretend you've destroyed something, send it out to the garbage can, and then have your boys show up in a garbage truck and just lift that garbage can on camera, dump it into the fucking thing, and thousands of pounds of cannabis, sorry, we're in Canada, thousands of kilos of cannabis are being redirected.

1:01:40BubblemanThere's no fucking doubt about it. Yeah, David.

1:01:44Ryan Dank AfBecause we're saying things that David used to say. David used to say, there's not a system that they could create that I couldn't find a way around.

1:01:53Collin PalmerBingo. True. You know, we are switching in New York State from Biotrack right now to Metric. And when that court order came down, I feel like I should run up to Albany with that in my hand and be like, Hey guys, you want to have another one? Because this is about, this is, because listen, this really comes from the heart. This is a scheme that locks us into a Gillette razor buy-in essentially, where you buy a tag for 10 cents for every single product you make, whether it's a half gram, a gram, an eighth, A point three gram.

1:02:33Collin PalmerIt doesn't matter. That's 10 cents. That's absolutely absurd to me when we know these systems do not work. It's absurd.

1:02:45SpeakerWell, and isn't there a lot of even in the in the tightest regulatory metric and seed to sale tracking? How do you divert or how do you deal with, okay, you harvest a room. From that room, only a certain percentage of that biomass is marketable flour, right? So let's say out of a room, let's say you get four pounds of marketable flour, but you get 50 pounds of trim, right?

1:03:15SpeakerLike Marcus was saying, yeah, you just take that out to dumpster. No, you don't take it out to dumpster. You send that out to get basically... Thank you for joining us.

1:03:40SpeakerAnd when we had a small facility in LA and we're in the process of getting licensed and we had to get our security cameras put up. And if you grow indoors, there's a camera at every angle and on every plant. Every time, everywhere, every person, everything, right? And then like, I'm paying a guy $10,000 to do the, just the consultant to do the security camera layout and whatever, all this shit, right?

1:04:08SpeakerAnd I drive up north to a field of 13 acres of weed with one camera on it.

1:04:14BubblemanExactly. Well, the other thing about those cameras, Mojave, is once you reach the point of no return is how are you going to aggregate that data? Like in Canada, there's there's just I don't even know how many cameras and how many facilities it's like. And it's 24 hours and it's all the time and it's just recording. It's like, OK, yeah, go go look at the cameras. Let me know what you see.

1:04:35BubblemanHow are you going to choose the time to look at the camera? How are you going to know unless someone told and said, hey, go look at the cameras on this date between this time and this time, and you're going to see something interesting. Otherwise, those cameras defeat the purpose after a certain point of time.

1:04:53SpeakerOnce you have no audio, right, Marcus?

1:04:56BubblemanEven if there was audio, you know, it's like, and even if they're, even the cameras themselves, how good are they?

1:05:02SpeakerYou know, they see some guy out in the parking lot. But if there's audio and they tune an algorithm to look for certain words, like, you know.

1:05:11BubblemanHow fast do you think they'll start writing things on pieces of paper?

1:05:15Collin PalmerI don't know. Mark, you're not allowed to do that. Like in Massachusetts, you can't have audio with video. Right. Like, it's just not like we weren't like when I had our facility up there, it was it was a real issue at first. Like they were like, yo, you can't all this audio has to go off.

1:05:29SpeakerI think that's the reason why. Right.

1:05:32Collin PalmerI don't know. I just thought it was weird. I was like, I don't know. You know, at the time, it was all due to me.

1:05:36Ryan Dank AfIt has to do with privacy and wiretapping, doesn't it?

1:05:39Collin PalmerExactly. It was more a state law, I think, but I think more states are like that.

1:05:44Ryan Dank AfThe funny thing is, even in Canada, they got to a certain point in time where they're like, okay, one camera on the doors of the rooms, right? It's like, that's about appearances. It's not about actually stopping things. It's about the appearance of doing something, right? I just wanted to circle back one thing. Epidiolex is actually not scheduled, right? When they rolled it out in 2018, it was on schedule five.

1:06:07Ryan Dank AfAnd then in 2020, they took it off the schedule. So that's, you know, that's not what we were saying.

1:06:16Collin PalmerSo why was that, Ryan? Can you explain? Maybe for the viewers and just myself, like, I don't understand. Can you break down why that happened?

1:06:24Ryan Dank AfWhy was it on schedule five?

1:06:27Collin PalmerWhy did they do what they did? I guess is the bigger question.

1:06:30Ryan Dank AfI assume that it was lobby. I mean, Jazz Pharmaceuticals bought GW in 2021, and I'm sure that they put money in the pipeline and said, hey, in order for us to really be able to ramp up sales. And, you know, CBD has like, realiztically, it has no abuse potential, right? I mean, it is a therapeutic molecule.

1:06:49BubblemanWhen did Jazz buy them? May 2021. Okay, so April 6, 2020, Epidiolex was descheduled. Right. Before Jazz bought them. So you're right. They might have done that lobbying, got that done, and then bought them.

1:07:04Ryan Dank AfI'm sure they bought it. They bought it contingent upon being able to do it.

1:07:07Etienne FontanHold on. What about Marinol? Marinol was descheduled. I mean, pardon me, rescheduled, right?

1:07:12Ryan Dank AfYeah.

1:07:12Etienne FontanIt was moved from a Schedule 1 to Schedule 3, right, in 99.

1:07:17Ryan Dank AfNo, Schedule 2 to Schedule 3.

1:07:19Etienne FontanTwo to schedule three. Pardon me. You are correct. Yes. Yeah.

1:07:22Ryan Dank AfYeah.

1:07:23Etienne FontanYeah. And ninety nine. So prior to that, it was, you know, schedule two, which was showing that there was medical usage cannabis.

1:07:30Ryan Dank AfBut for some reason, the cannabis to THC, THC, we got to be careful with those distinctions because they are highly important. Right. Yes.

1:07:40Etienne FontanOne compound of the plant was synthesized and put into sesame oil as medicine.

1:07:48Ryan Dank AfThat's right. And again, going back to David, David wanted to make a natural version of Marinol. He wanted to make a generic that was made using natural THC. And the way that Marinol is registered is it's what they call dronabinol. Dronabinol is THC, but it's synthetic THC. And so because it was designed as synthetic THC in... Thank you for watching.

1:08:47Ryan Dank AfThat's the whole argument, right? It's like these guys create these definitions of terms so that they can manipulate and control. Yeah, right. So it's a bit nuts. You know, you're also talking about the one to one. And what's his name? I'm sorry. Colton. Colton uses a one-to-one. It's not the same as Sativex. Sativex is an oral spray, and I bet you he's not using an oral spray.

1:09:14Ryan Dank AfHe's probably taking that as a pill.

1:09:16SpeakerHe's taking it as a tincture.

1:09:18Ryan Dank AfAn oral tincture, yeah. So an oral tincture actually delivers the molecules right down into the gut. And as we all know, we keep saying over and over again throughout the years here, it's more than just THC and CBD. And, uh, I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually the beta-caryophyllene in the extract that might be contributing to the effect.

1:09:36SpeakerYeah.

1:09:36Ryan Dank AfRight. So it's not, it's always not just about these things. And we have things like, you know, there's like off-label prescription, I think like 40% of, um, epidiolex sales are actually off-label or off-license, which means that, you know, it's, it's that drug is registered for, uh, intractable epileptic conditions in children. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:10:17SpeakerI just think it's interesting that, you know, again, like, CBDA is much more bioavailable than CBD. But the reason why they're sticking with the Epidiolex thing is because it's, you know, it's easier to get approval of an existing approved drug and its formulation, as opposed to having to start all over again.

1:10:39Ryan Dank AfRight. Well, you're essentially doing an addendum. You're cutting that cost of a billion down to maybe a couple hundred million, right?

1:10:45SpeakerYeah. One of the last things that Mishulam was pushing, and I think there's a company that he started over in Israel that's still going along these lines, is when he saw that CBDA was much more bioavailable, and I think it's like... Thank you for joining us.

1:11:21SpeakerPast was trying to develop chemistry around HU380, I think is what it is. Hebrew University 380, which is basically the methyl ester of CBDA. And then in the body, the methyl ester undergoes hydrolysis to release CBDA. And I think there's still a company over in Israel that's looking at this.

1:11:42Ryan Dank AfWell, again, it's important to remember or to state just clearly, CBDA is a different molecule than CBDA. Yeah, they're very closely related. But they don't necessarily bind to the same receptor.

1:11:53SpeakerThe acids have their own pharmacology unto themselves. They hit the TRPV and the PPAR targets and Yeah, I don't know if you saw this other thing too, Ryan. This group over in Hawaii, this was a couple years ago, I think I talked about this on Hash Church, found that in particular CBGA was effective at completely blocking something called store-operated calcium entry, which is that calcium signal that goes into the cell that turns on the release of pro-inflammatory drugs.

1:12:30SpeakerAll the things that are basically released that cause an inflammatory response. And the acids are so much more potent than the decarboxylated cannabinoids. They really are. And I think that this discovery, I don't know why this discovery didn't get more of the light of day. I believe that this is the first time that you're understanding exactly what the, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:13:24Ryan Dank AfAnd that they're suggesting now that it's absolutely not a neem oil contamination thing, as a lot of people were talking about, and more likely that it's related to a genetic predisposition of people.

1:13:38SpeakerThat's what Dr. Rizzo found. And Ethan writes just one, you know, again, I used to say this about Meshulam all the time. You want to understand how the man thinks, read his papers. If you read that paper by Ethan, you'll be convinced too. And Dustin Sulak at CanMed this year also presented a couple case studies where it's very apparent there is something that's going on. It's not necessarily THC related.

1:14:05SpeakerThey think there could be something else. But yes, the genetic predisposition cannabis hypermesis syndrome is a real is a real thing.

1:14:14Etienne FontanAnd it is a genetic predisposition and very rare, okay? Just to reiterate, it's a very rare disorder. It has only affected less than a few thousand people. By no means does it affect everyone who uses cannabis. It is not a reason to maintain prohibition and it is a diagnosable condition for which screening is possible because Dr. Russo created the screening because prior it would cost nearly $100,000 just to get at the diagnosis where he does a metabolomic screening that costs around $1,000.

1:14:53Etienne FontanWhich can actually, you know, see if you have that. And those conditions are also having to be heart related. So it's important to know because it will affect you later in life because of the connection to the heart.

1:15:08SpeakerYeah, I don't know if you guys saw the article, but there was an article from a pro alcohol rag that showed somebody puking, saying that, see, cannabis is going to make you puke, you know, scrommeting. Yeah, Scrometing, right. What a thing for the alcohol industry to be, you know, claiming.

1:15:29Etienne FontanDude, what a bummer. I mean, Kevin Sabet was using Scrometing years ago as, and I laughed at it originally too, until we, you know, we actually looked into it because we never heard of such a thing. And yeah, it does happen, but again, very rare. But most people are doing that from alcohol and most people have done it from alcohol. Then they have from cannabis again saying again how very rare this is.

1:15:55Etienne FontanAnd it tends to be also high THC use, which tends to lend to a lock up in the body of enzymes and inability to process, which basically causes a... A death from other circumstances, but cannabis does have an influence to say that cannabis has never killed anybody is something that is something we can no longer say. And I loved saying it. I loved believing it. However, causation until science can prove otherwise, we have at least six deaths in the United States proven that I have links to from actual government studies that prove people have died from this.

1:16:36Etienne FontanBut again, Out of the many decades, and again, the first diagnosed back in what, 2005. Okay. So, you know, it's very rare. And we also don't know about internationally. We only really know about those deaths in the United States. Thank you for joining us.

1:17:14Etienne FontanDr. Russo compared toxicity studies of neem to cannabis hyperemesis and to prove that there was no direct path and causality, that they were completely different symptoms and outright causality.

1:17:32BubblemanI can say cannabis never killed me.

1:17:36Ryan Dank AfIf it was neem, I think that it would be clustered too in certain geographical areas because not all growers are using neem, right? But it does pop up and Thank you for joining us.

1:18:00Etienne FontanWe also, you gotta admit, I mean, as a community,

1:18:25Ryan Dank AfWe're very reticent to accept that cannabis might have some negative impacts, right? I mean, it's not this benign.

1:18:31Etienne FontanThat's the biggest problem that Dr. Russo found is that the only way to stop CHS is to stop. And the majority of people who are using it medically were those people who were getting CHS. And the only way to stop the symptoms is literally to stop using cannabis. And the mentality, he said, of the biggest problem Is that those people want to go back to using cannabis and they can't.

1:18:58Etienne FontanAnd that's the biggest rubber hitting the road.

1:19:04Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, I mean, we do get into these states where it's like you want to use every day, right? Like you want to consume every day. And I was like that for a long time in my life. Like it was like first get up first thing in the morning watching the bomb. You know, hitting the bong. But I'm at the stage now in my life where I don't.

1:19:27Ryan Dank AfI still consume. I don't consume the way that I used to.

1:19:31SpeakerDon't judge me, man. I'm not judging anybody else.

1:19:35Ryan Dank AfNo, I'm just kidding.

1:19:37SpeakerNo, I think it's important. It's important because I think people, I think we do a disservice to cannabis and definitely to nascent users Thank you for joining us.

1:20:04SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

1:20:18SpeakerBecause people either didn't disclose that it was cannabis that caused it, you know, because they didn't want to say that or didn't really understand that it could have been. There's a lot of things. It is a drug. It's a very, very, very, very, very safe. Yeah.

1:20:30BubblemanJust eat a thousand milligrams if you don't think it's that strong. Yeah.

1:20:35Speaker100%. But the weird thing is to some people, like a lot of us, we can consume and be very functional. And to me, the core of this commerce discussion is about functionality. And that's what pharma, pharma supports functional medicine at a very high cost, but it's about keeping the machine going. And nobody wants your doctor taking bong rips before they perform surgery, you know, but your doctor might be taking a shot of scotch to get rid of the jitters before you perform surgery as well.

1:21:08SpeakerBut, you know, the point is that we that we created a kind of a commerce based system that was off of originally off of compassion in medicine. And there wasn't, and we kind of, we're really in a prohibition commerce world still. That's where all the money is, right? And now people are trying to figure out, well, what's the functionality of this? How does this work in society?

1:21:35SpeakerIs it supposed to be at the gas station? Is it supposed to be at the liquor store? How much should I be able to take daily? What's a safe dose? All these real important questions, I think they're valid, but they're not necessary in terms of legalization, right? Because alcohol is always going to be the elephant in the room because alcohol just kills you.

1:22:01Collin PalmerYeah. I mean, do you perhaps, Mojave, think that we're kind of repeating ourselves in history right now? I mean, there was a great presentation at CanMed that kind of highlighted some of this ideology I think is, you know, very valid for this conversation and something I've been thinking about just off the cuff for a couple of years now. You know, if we look at other industry, like it's sort of where we were landing right now, you know, in turn, you know, the same thing that how alcohol came out of this revolution of, you know, moonshiners and people that were pushing this ideology.

1:22:35Collin PalmerAnd my family was heavily involved in that. I have tons of stories of my family moonshining and running, doing running barrels of stuff all through the Northeast. But it's really an interesting ideology that we find ourselves in because they had a system, right? They have a system that they can work within. And sure, there's people that are going to be making alcohol off the cuff, but they don't You know, fast forward to, you know, call it 2018 when the Spirits Act was enacted and everyone was able to build these small brands and bespoke distilleries.

1:23:11Collin PalmerLike in Brooklyn, for instance, there were distilleries all over the place that popped up. You know, there was one in Red Hook that I went to that was incredible. You know, so... You know, with that said, do you think we're kind of repeating ourselves, guys? Or are we making new mistakes that, you know, it's going to be even more difficult to actually build a system around, you know?

1:23:35Collin PalmerBecause taking everything into consideration, this is, to your point, you said so many great things there, like... A gas station is very much prohibition error thoughts, right? Meaning like, yeah, anyone should just have access to this thing because it's like it's kind of shady and, you know, we've got it behind us in a packet. But there's really, you know, there's no wrong in any of these things you're saying, you know, because the patient access point is there, you know, but it's colored, right?

1:24:07Collin PalmerLike, You know, like there's, there's big industry behind one thought. And then there's like a little guy, mom and pop behind the other thought, you know?

1:24:15SpeakerWell, you said it first, Colin, you said, sorry to interrupt, but you said earlier. No, go for it. The $8,500 pound. It's like originally commodity was just the plant, the person who grew the plant and the raw material. Like that was the whole industry. And then you sold that to someone, they took it home and used it. Right. And it's like, so if you deflate that value, that $8,500 pound to like $80, you know,

1:24:39SpeakerYou know, then the whole industry is not about it's about everything that happens to it down the downstream. And we created thanks to our we created all the downstream manufacturing and processing for there to be a real functional cannabis industry. That's why you have gas beverages and vapes. But I think where our hearts have always been connected to the cultivation and the plant side. And that to me is really what this discussion is about.

1:25:09SpeakerIt's about eventually commerce and cannabis will continue, whether it's schedule three or whatever. However, it will continue because the people are going to want it to be there like they do now. But the money, who gets to make the money are the people who own, the person with the can now makes the money, not the person who grows the stuff that goes in the can.

1:25:31Collin PalmerSo that's, you're drawing a correlation between like where music is right now almost. Like people want the thing, but they don't want to acknowledge the guy who made the thing. Music and cannabis is a perfect example. But the guy who has the gate to sell it to you is the king and queen.

1:25:46BubblemanBut who's acknowledging their apple grower? Who's acknowledging their raspberry breeder?

1:25:52Collin PalmerBut let me make the point. Dude, you're right. Marcus, like nailing it. But it's cynical. But that world that you're describing right now, Mojave, is very much that world, right?

1:26:02SpeakerWell, my point is, that's a perfect analogy. That's why I brought up my family and Big Sur. There was this moment when I was like, oh my God, there's an actual domestic cannabis commerce thing that can happen. Same thing happened with music when people started pressing it onto a record. Oh my God, you can take something that is just in your backyard, like your guys at dinner at a bomb, dang, dang, dang, and I can put it on a thing.

1:26:26SpeakerTotally.

1:26:27Collin PalmerRemember, people used to have to go to church or some big event once a week to hear this thing called music. Right. Or to see art, too.

1:26:38SpeakerSo it's not, and what did music industry quickly become? Not about the music, but about the people who made the records, made the billboards, put it on the radio and got it distributed, right? The value of the actual creation of the product. So this is just a capitalist commercial thing. And I think with drugs, I mean, look at psychedelics right now. People are trying to figure out, well, who gets to profit off of psychedelics?

1:27:00SpeakerWell, mushrooms are a lot easier to grow than weed. And people don't use them as much. You know what I mean? So it's like, there's this weird thing of like, okay, who really gets to profit off of this thing? And I think when Napster happened, everyone who wanted to be a musician and support their family selling records was kind of bummed. But then was the consumer bummed?

1:27:22SpeakerNo. The consumer was like, fuck, man. Now I got like five gigabytes of music just downloaded. I've been listening to the best music I've ever heard in my life.

1:27:30Etienne FontanMetallica got mocked, remember? And they were all like, oh, shut up, Lars. What the fuck, man? Yeah. And he was literally sounding the alarm and everybody was like, go eat a bag of dicks. And, you know, that's really, I mean, but Colin, that's a good point because yes, there's a way. He's the breeder of the industry, right?

1:27:49Collin PalmerLike someone stole his clone and they're outgrowing it. Yeah.

1:27:53Etienne FontanAnd they found a way to backdoor the music right through the system that was created. So there in lies a way, right? Because then what did we all do? Oh, we all had cassette tapes, right? Way back in the day. And oh, we had to put the tape over those two little spots or it came with it that you pop later. And what do we used to do?

1:28:11Etienne FontanOh, we used to sit around our fucking radios and wait for the hopefully the cue to that song. And if it came, yeah, exactly. Exactly what Mark's showing right there, right? You know, you mark your pen, get everything all set. Which shows that. You know, so you could, you know, exactly that. Bootleg and have something you could not access.

1:28:29SpeakerFish from the Colonial Theater, Keene, New Hampshire, 7-12-91. Right. Country horns.

1:28:35Etienne FontanThat's a good year.

1:28:38Etienne FontanThere's a great correlation between the underground cannabis world and trying to come above world, but there was the established music world, which everybody has always found a way around that to get what they wanted, right? Nobody had mixed tapes or sold mixed tapes. It's not about blah 30. No, those things didn't exist. We made our own because we wanted to hear this music in succession or in Sheldon's case, I wanted this concert and the Grateful Dead's like, sure, go ahead.

1:29:11Etienne FontanWe'll sell you the records, but Go ahead. You can record our shit. Whereas everybody else is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I remember as a kid, there's a show called What's Happening? And these kids snuck into a, what was it? Not Three Dog Night. It was something. Doobie Brothers. Doobie Brothers. Doomy Brothers. And, you know, he got caught with a cassette tape trying to record the concert and they were trying to give him the moral breakdown of you can't do that because that's illegal and we can't make money because blah.

1:29:47Etienne FontanSo, you know, it goes back generations. It's not something that's new. However, it's, you know, I guess we are repeating history just in a different context, Colin, right?

1:29:59Collin PalmerIt feels like it. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's why I posed the question. I was like, I don't know. It just seems so... I don't know. It's really fascinating to me.

1:30:13Etienne FontanIt's amazing that we're in the middle of it.

1:30:15Collin PalmerWe're lucky, it seems.

1:30:17Etienne FontanRight. We are lucky. We created this.

1:30:19Collin PalmerWe created the chaos.

1:30:20Etienne FontanWell, they created the chaos. We just tried to make order from the chaos. We participated, too. Let's not forget that.

1:30:28SpeakerAnybody with a guitar and an iPhone can be a recording artist, right? That's what... So, so any, anyone with a light and a, and a, and a, and a, what, a plant pot and some soil can grow weed, right? It's true. And the thing is we did, but we, through the prohibition, we created, we created culture. And I think like we all, we're also lucky enough to be old enough on this call.

1:30:55SpeakerSir, Caleb, maybe you have, you can, you can Google this, but, but the whole thing about going to a record store and, and opening a record and putting it on the on the turntable and putting the stylus on the record and all of that was so powerful for us like it was dude and then breaking the weed up on the record the whole exactly so we lament the loss of the culture and the the personal experience that we had in our cannabis culture in the past rolling like people like rolling joints like rolling joints is so cool to us like We don't like to roll a joint.

1:31:30SpeakerWell, I don't know how to roll a joint. I just buy pre-rolls. I just download music. It's just available. It's just kind of taken for granted. But at the same time, I think that's a natural arc. All of this kind of commerce thing.

1:31:43BubblemanOf everything. Look at snowboarding. It used to be snurfing. It used to be a small little plank with a rope and some staples for grip. And it turned into like Burton. It turned into this like monstrous multi-billion dollar because this is the thing. A few people to get turned on to something. They're like, this is really cool. This is so exciting. They have a passion. They light the fire with all these other people.

1:32:07BubblemanIt's like they just want everyone to know about it. And then by the time everyone knows about it, they're like, I wish nobody knew about this. I wish we never lost what we had. This is so fucked up that it's all changed and it's all this, this and this. It's like, yeah, it's called like the natural evolution of humans. We just, we always travel in this direction of like, The 12 Js of Xmas.

1:32:30BubblemanThere you go. Like, fuck, that didn't exist 30 years ago.

1:32:36Etienne FontanYeah, there's a lot of cool things. A couple of years ago. What are you talking about? Right. You know, but now look, it's it's the holidays. And look, each one of these farms all contributed a joint. Right. And now it comes. You know, it's a nice breakdown. You get a nice breakdown of what each farmer is and what they do and what they did. And then, yeah, you get a joint to smoke for each day.

1:32:59Etienne FontanIt's kind of nice.

1:33:00BubblemanI think it's spectacular, dude, and I don't even smoke joints. I saw that shit when you and Caleb got together to do your 12 J's of Christmas and I was just like, man, that is awesome. I need to do the 12 dabs of Christmas.

1:33:14Etienne FontanSomebody needs to do the hashish advent calendar. I mean, I like it, but, you know, they're pre-rolls and everybody knows how I feel about pre-rolls. Friends don't let friends buy pre-rolls. But, you know, I appreciate the sentiment and the thought and the concept because, you know, I grew up Catholic, Roman Catholic. Mom was secretary of the archbishop. So, you know, I never got an advent calendar. Of all things, I've always wanted one.

1:33:39Etienne FontanAnd then as I got older, I was like, man, I want one with weed. We should do a hash church one, Mark.

1:33:43BubblemanNo, you don't get a calendar, an advent calendar. We should do a hash church one. You just get your shit batted around by a dirty priest in the back.

1:33:54Etienne FontanYou get a stale wafer on Sundays. Yeah, stale wafers. Merry Christmas, motherfucker.

1:34:03BubblemanOh my goodness.

1:34:04Etienne FontanFucking love hanging out with you guys on Sunday, man.

1:34:07BubblemanWhat an intense conversation today. I feel like I'm legitimately red in the face, but I think it's just because I've been coughing so much off this. How are you feeling, dude? Are you getting better? Oh yeah, I feel much better. I'm enjoying the Hayes dabs from my good homie Neil. Neil was with me in Vegas this year and everyone just fucking hit me up on the side and was like, dude, your homie Neil is, I really like that guy, man.

1:34:32BubblemanLike, can I get his number? Can I link up with him? Such a good time traveling with him. And what do you got there, Mojave? It's an XX. Talk to us about that.

1:34:42SpeakerI was just about to see if Caleb would catch on to that. I know what it is.

1:34:45BubblemanWhen he said XX, I was like, I literally just opened that jar in Vegas. I think I preferred, was it XX or XXX that I preferred, Caleb?

1:34:58BubblemanDo you remember? The XXX. It was the XXX. Yeah, that was the more cat pissy.

1:35:02SpeakerYeah, I think so. I think so, too. The Triple X had more of that Grin Spoon, bright, kind of real old school.

1:35:12BubblemanYeah, just don't get me wrong. I would kick neither of them out of bed for eating crackers.

1:35:19SpeakerNo, they're all good. And honestly, I'm at that point where I'm like, because I want to give it's Tom Hill Hayes and I want to give him like a comment. But I'm at that point where I need another jar to really evaluate these properly. I really feel honestly like I have to give you my honest opinion. I need a solid kilo to get a really understanding. Six months later, I'll tell you if I'm a better person on X.

1:35:44SpeakerNo, I like them all, but I think the triple X was the one. The triple X is the impious jar. That was always Rob's thing, but I'm not sure. I kind of felt like the double X might've had a little more weed in it, but they're all really good. And they are what they're supposed to be. They're energetic. They're, you know,

1:36:02BubblemanI was the closest flower I've smelt in a long time to actually wanting to smoke a joint. I was very close. I was very, very close. But then he had the Jack Hare Live Hash Rosin 1.3% Returner, the very same cut that Craig from Alpenglow and the Alpenglow crew won their award with. So I didn't feel the need to. And then, of course, once I got my own little jar gifted to me, God bless you, Caleb and the whole crew from Humboldt that were kind enough to offer me that.

1:36:38BubblemanThat is an unbelievable gift that you just never expect. And I will be honest, I gave most of it away. I shared most of it. I took maybe, you know, one dab for every five dabs I gave away. Because when you have something like that, how could you hold on to it and not share it?

1:36:56SpeakerIt's meant to be shared. People haven't experienced it.

1:37:01BubblemanSo here's something we didn't really discuss today, which is, you know, the, if the price drops out and we're no longer concerned with the overprice of cannabis, where it's $60 eighths and all of this, do we ever get to a place where these hazes and haze extracts become viable? Economically available. You know what I mean? Because these are the holy grails of holy grails. These are just, people think they know until you dab them out with it and it's just like, holy shit.

1:37:35BubblemanThat's kind of, I've always said, I know we'll get to where we're going when I can go to the store and buy like an ounce of full melt, dry sifted, static haze heads. When I can do that, we have arrived. Your thoughts?

1:37:53Collin PalmerWell, they would have to cost 4X, right? Well, what if we took a different approach and bred it and we brought the flowering times down and someone focused more of their energy on that? Is that a viable path, Mohave, do you think? Because I remember asking this question to you and Rob when you guys were at the lab. I was like, is there a world where he's like, well, you'd have to rewrite history almost.

1:38:16SpeakerWell, yeah, but you're talking about apples and oranges because it's like it's not... Whether it yields as much API or active ingredients or whatever, that's not really the thing because the question is if the price is so low, I mean, there's plenty of crops that are low cost compared to the neighboring crop across the road. But most people just grow more of it. But the real reason we haven't been able to grow more of it is because of prohibition, regulation, all that crap.

1:38:45SpeakerSo it's like, if you're like, okay, this one, I need to make grow two acres of in order to get the same yield. Well, then I just grow two acres of it. And if the if the consumers there, and the consumer and back to the whole Amsterdam thing, I 100% believe that it's not about The consumer's waiting for haze. They always have been, right? As soon as they experience it, they go, oh, it's back to it being a drug.

1:39:12SpeakerIt's a different drug. So they experience it and they go like, I will pay more for that because actually I think I might've been high twice as long. Like I did the math. Or enjoyed it. Yeah, and Amsterdam still has a haze market because the consumer found it. And they kept going back and saying, I want more. When we did in the early days, when I did work with dispensaries, we tried this with late flowering sativas where it was just put it on the shelf, tell people literally at the time, we said, if you're not happy, bring it back, we'll give you your money back.

1:39:44SpeakerBecause we charged 40% more. It was like 60 bucks or $105. How about this theory, Mojave?

1:39:53BubblemanAnd it only works really for people from North America and Australia and further countries. But when I went to Amsterdam back in the early days, of course, the first time, 95, I just went to the Damrock. I went into a random coffee shop. I bought some skunk and some other things and ended up sleeping for the next 11 hours, waking up at four in the morning and being fucked for the rest of my trip.

1:40:17BubblemanBut when I went to Amsterdam, when I started learning, You know, arrive at two, don't go to sleep till 11 at night, smoke sativa all day. And that's where that sativa was really like, man, it was like drinking coffee or something. If you smoked an indica or some heavy hash before 11 o'clock at night came, especially if you just ate a fucking meal, you were done. You just were gonna fall asleep.

1:40:42BubblemanYou were gonna fuck yourself with jet lag for the next four to five days. And the cup was only five days.

1:40:50SpeakerIt's 100%. I mean, it's back to the whole functionality. I mean, if you look at the whole research on like coffee, coffee is relatively new to mankind, right? But when coffee found, when commerce found coffee, they were like, holy crap, they created the night shift, for instance. It changed the way the world worked because they realized that the world runs on stimulants. And the weird thing is that prohibition imposed a lot of these Afghani sleepy attributes into the cannabis gene pool.

1:41:24SpeakerRight, where it just wasn't as present as it was prior to the 80s.

1:41:29Ryan Dank AfYeah, it was the economics of prohibition that did that.

1:41:32SpeakerThe economics of prohibition. So what I really think is that haze and these, not just haze and not just terpenylene, but these profiles that have an uplifting and stimulating effect, they are the profiles that fit into the machine of industrial society. And once people experience that, like I had this, we had this lady who did, Did delivery service like 15 years ago. And she had a list of clients that were all the highest level.

1:42:03SpeakerI mean, they were there were people that I was sworn by a blood oath. I could never tell who. But they're going in the autobiography. But it was all people who owned like fucking sports teams and bankers and men. Actors and they all wanted just to smoke sativa because they operated on such a high level, they couldn't threaten their ability to perform at their job. And I think that's a big issue with the way that non-smokers look at weed.

1:42:29SpeakerThey think that everyone has got couch lock and is all dabbed out and spaced out and can't operate a car. You know, and the reality is there is a little bit more functional weed and there's a little bit less functional weed. And things like hays aren't just functional, but they're elegant and they make you feel fantastic. You know, so it's like when people realized how that kind of stuff fits in the cog of the machine.

1:42:53SpeakerI do think that that will all of a sudden find a huge market. And right now, like it's a shame, but if I think if sativas were more prevalent and more people were consuming lower dose, lower THC sativa in the day, then people would see where it fits in at the gas station more than a beverage or a shitty vape pen.

1:43:16Collin PalmerWell, I'm already seeing that, Mojave. Like in New York, I have strawberry sour piff on our menu, and it's living soil flour. I held it up a little second ago, and people love A's in New York. And you're already seeing that across, like being influenced back west, you know, and, you know. Also across the world now, you know, PIF is becoming, you know, a real household name again, which is amazing.

1:43:46Collin PalmerYou know, it's really cool to see because I think everything you're talking about, and I think you're right, Marcus, like it's the balance of having these options to, you know, utilize the spectrum of cannabinoids and experiences that you can actually have. And I think it's well said. We don't have a large enough spectrum right now because it's very bottlenecked in terms of just pure experience. If you look at the genetics that are being grown largely at scale, they're like maybe one or two S&Ps away from each other genetically and genomically.

1:44:23Collin PalmerAnd as such, they produce very similar fact profiles. So it's really interesting that You know, there's a resurgence of haze again, but I think it's all by design. You know, it's it's it's.

1:44:39SpeakerWell, I think I think that to me, as when when everyone in Cali started growing these new hybrids in the 80s, I never remember someone saying, I'm growing this kind of weed because this one makes me feel better or this is a better high. Like that wasn't a consistent like, oh, do these new hybrids that we made They make you feel so much better. And I'm a better husband.

1:45:04SpeakerI'm a better dad. I'm a better worker. It was always the same thing. It's like, bro, this thing chunks. It comes in early. I didn't get it pulled by the cops. I can grow it in my basement, blah, blah, blah. So this whole, we imposed all these effects. And not that there's anything wrong with those other effects, but we impose them into people.

1:45:24SpeakerAnd then we pushed out the other effect that people had kind of selected for for hundreds of years in most populations, at least, which was a little bit more uplifting. And I think the problem why people don't like a lot of sativas today is the first sativas they try are either not really sativas, whatever we want to call it, but they're just too strong for someone who's trying to be functional and go to work in the morning.

1:45:48BubblemanIt's one of the great bummers of prohibition. I've said it before. It was the how much can I get and how fast can I get it era. And it just sort of hypnotized everyone. And even though if you ask anyone back then, none will say they were growing for profits. Thank you for watching.

1:46:23Ryan Dank AfI don't think you can take haze and put it in the field, even in California, right? Like it matures so late that the later you go in the season one, you're losing sun intensity, but you're also increasing the chances of shitty weather events, right? And so a lot of the economics of it has been about trying to move that flowering time early so that you can ensure that you're bringing in a crop, right?

1:46:47Ryan Dank AfSo I don't know if haze will ever be Field grown and you just grow twice as many acres. Acres are cheap, outdoor field acres are relatively cheap. Greenhouse infrastructure is not. And so you become bound by these economic forces. Right.

1:47:05SpeakerYou got to grow at the right place. I mean, but there's somewhere in the world we can grow haze at a low commercial cost.

1:47:14Ryan Dank AfAbsolutely.

1:47:15SpeakerIt could be inland. It could be southern. It could be the Imperial Valley in Mexico or it could be in Oklahoma or whatever. I'm just saying there's nothing stopping us other than prohibition.

1:47:26Ryan Dank AfRight. And, you know, Colin, what you asked about Can we actually just lower the flowering time in haze and keep what it is haze? The terpenylene terpene profile is dominant. So what happens is, I remember all these Dutch guys used to say, oh, we've managed to preserve the best qualities of the haze and make it, you know, breed it into an indica frame. And it was like it was some breeding, you know, some skill of breeding.

1:47:56Ryan Dank AfIt's a fucking dominant terpene profile. It's like every F1... That you make with like an Afghanica type is actually going to smell like haze. But the problem is, is like you're actually moving in more than just that terpene profile into the genomes. Right. And I don't think that anybody else, it's one of the things that we're doing with Dominic Marcus, who you've now met over, you know, over in Holland.

1:48:21Ryan Dank AfWe're trying to run these haze plants that he grew at the contract research organization through, through their laboratory or through the government, the Dutch government laboratory to see, is there actually something in the plant that is different than say a train wreck, right? Or Jack or some of these other terpenylene dominant plants that are truly hybrids. There you go. Yeah, these things. And because like now if you are using molecular markers and you wanted to do something, I guess you could probably do it with CRISPR too, but even with molecular markers... That plan is so rowdy.

1:48:57Collin PalmerLook at that thing.

1:48:58Ryan Dank AfYeah. If you were doing it based on genetic markers and you're actually looking at only the genome, I mean, really what you're trying to do is like preserve the chromosomes of the haze intact and only select... On those chromosomes that control the flowering time, right? And so I think nowadays with modern breeding, it's actually more doable than it ever has been before, Collins. But I think that our past attempts, they've always been kind of like fooled by people that are like, oh, well, let's get a bigger, faster plant, right?

1:49:35Ryan Dank AfAnd then what happens is you start intergressing more traits from the Afghan into the haze background and you're like, it's good enough, right? I don't want good enough. I want it to be haze only with a quicker flowering time, right? So the question is, is that possible? And I think with modern breeding techniques, you can.

1:49:56BubblemanSo we're going to have to have Dom come on and share some information with us. Those plants actually made my mouth water right towards the end. The 165 were the one I started with. And then the last one I showed was day 148 on 11 and a half hours of light. It's just that's over 21 weeks, just for those of you that are bad at math.

1:50:18Ryan Dank AfWell, I think he grew like 15 of the 16 seeds I gave him. I think there's eight females, but only two of them are really outstanding. Which is kind of along the lines of what David used to say with the ratios. But, you know, those eight plants took up half a bay in the greenhouse.

1:50:34Collin PalmerThings are outrageous, dude.

1:50:36Ryan Dank AfIf you want to do a real, and those things were grown from 12-12 on seed, right? From seed, like he started those things on 12-12.

1:50:45Collin PalmerSo those are 21 weeks full term?

1:50:49Ryan Dank AfFrom C, yeah, like I think the first ones came down like 150 days and the later ones that they pushed came down like 165 days. Wow. You can call it auto flower.

1:51:03SpeakerYeah. Hayes is auto flower, man.

1:51:07Ryan Dank AfYou know, you also know in Mojave, I hate the word sativa when we're talking about plants because it really was a misnomer. When Linnaeus discovered cannabis sativa, he was talking about European hemp, right? And European hemp had been bred for fiber characteristics. It's these incredibly tall, thin plants with thin lamina, thin finger blade leaves. And when they, you know, when William O'Shaughnessy went to India and discovered drug cannabis, that's what they called indica, right?

1:51:39Ryan Dank AfIndica means from India. Sativa actually means cultivated or useful in Latin. And so when these plants were originally named by the people who discovered them, sativa was actually being referred to as hemp. And then in the 60s, Or, you know, 50s, 60s, whatever it was, when the people started becoming interested in cannabis varieties and they went back to the scientific culture, they read, oh, look, sativa is these tall plants with the thin leaves, right?

1:52:08Ryan Dank AfAnd what they did was actually confuse the equatorial plants with hemp, which, and sativa is really hemp, right? So I don't use the words indica and sativa because they're really incorrect. Like indica plants, Aren't short, fat and stocky. Those are Afghanica plants. Those are plants from Afghanistan, right? So I try to use like equatorials to describe what people in the vernacular call sativa.

1:52:37SpeakerI totally agree. And it's hard, but I, as in working in cannabis, I find that you, in order to have the conversation be functional without it turning into an educational process with someone who might not even respect you while you're having this conversation, that I end up using the word strain and sativa more and more. And I don't want to offend their daughter either who was named sativa and tell her that she's just...

1:53:03Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, you got to go, you got to go along to get along, right?

1:53:07BubblemanYou stole and cultivated.

1:53:12SpeakerAnd we do need a word, though, because it is, and sativa is a nice word, and I know it's how we're colloquially using it, whatever, but we need a word that relays to the consumer now. Not the grower, the guy who owns the dispensary, but the consumer needs a word to know like, hey, which one can I smoke in the morning without ruining my day? And which one do I smoke at night where I can just say, I don't give a shit.

1:53:37SpeakerI'm no longer concerned with the world. I'm getting fucked up. And they've turned, they've made it, they've oversimplified it. And the screwed up thing is, is because of the dispensary owners, honestly, no offense, ATN, because you know this better than anybody, is that we've turned that word into a marketing tool. And then most of the sativas that they have on the shelf aren't even equatorial.

1:54:00Ryan Dank AfYeah, exactly.

1:54:02SpeakerIt just became this placebo, you know? Yeah.

1:54:06Ryan Dank AfWell, and they all have lost their meaning. It's like, you know, people are like, oh, I've got this sativa. It smells like terpenylene. But really, it's like a hybrid, right? It's like even maybe even like a dominant, like a non-equatorial dominant hybrid, right? But because it's got that dominant sativa or that dominant terpenylene trait, right, people label it as sativa. So I'm, I, again, like I, I don't try to use these words to be pedantic, but it's, it's really about like the, the words have lost their meaning.

1:54:39Ryan Dank AfRight. And, and so I try to try to use words, at least with you guys that are informative. Right. And I feel, I do feel like equatorial, at least in speaking with you guys, I can say equatorials and you guys all know what I mean.

1:54:54SpeakerRight. But there also needs to be a difference between, so some equatorials are stimulating like a lovely cup of coffee in the morning and some of them are borderline like taking a hit of L. So it's like there's in that range, there's even a lot of like, yeah, you can do this in the morning if you want to be You know, go out and paint by the riverside or something like that.

1:55:15SpeakerBut there's a, there's another one where you can just do in the morning and, you know, take your, drive your kids to school and be totally fine.

1:55:23Ryan Dank AfIt's the same thing. It comes back to that same thing in pharmacology, right? It's the dose that makes the poison, right? It's, it's the amount that you consume and like the, like with all species, they vary along and continue, right? And then we can use cannabinoid content as one of those indicators. But yeah, like, you know, The plants that I've come across that when I share them with people and those people have that classic sativa experience, they're under 12% THC, right?

1:55:56Ryan Dank AfThey're not like 25% THC plants. And you see this as well. I mean, ATN knows this with taking like Marinol, right? If you take one Marinol, you go up. But if you take like two or three, you go up and then you come down pretty quick. Like you get that lethargic thing that Marcus was talking about.

1:56:14Ryan Dank AfYou know, and that's what you were having is when you're over in Amsterdam, you're consuming all this THC, you're driving your system. And THC has a biphasic effect. At low doses, it's stimulating. But the more you take, you kind of get this like biphasic dose response curve where it goes up and then the effect comes down. I used to stay up overnight, Marcus, the day before travel.

1:56:36Ryan Dank AfLike I'd stay up, pack way late, sleep a couple of hours, I'd force myself to stay up and I'd always take an evening flight. And so you'd leave at like, you know, seven o'clock at night, West Coast time. And I'd just be absolutely dead by the time I get to the plane. I'd eat a couple of edibles. I'd crash hard on the plane and then I'd wake up on Amsterdam time when you'd land.

1:57:00Ryan Dank AfAnd you'd kind of have already reset your clock and you'd be landing at like seven or eight o'clock in the morning, EU time.

1:57:07BubblemanI can't eat edibles on planes. That gives me an anxiety attack just thinking about it, to be honest. You know, I'm like, bravo to you and all the people who can do it. But my buddy gave me an edible on the way back from Montreal, told me it was a 60 milligram. I ate half of it. And then he was like, well, no, it wasn't 60. It was like 100.

1:57:27BubblemanAnd I was like, dude, what the fuck? I'm on 50 milligrams. I like 20. 20 is great for me. I take 20. Maybe I might take 30 extremes, but 20 is enough for me on a plane ride. 50 was 2.5 times more than enough.

1:57:44Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, you know, when you OD on, when you take too much, see, one of the first times I did that, I baked some hash into these cookies and I got them, you know, I got through security and I'm like, I'm through, let's eat a bunch of cookies and I started getting really high and so I went and I tossed the cookies out in the garbage can in the bathroom and got on the plane and I was just wigging right at it, like, and so we get in our seats and we sit down and I guess somebody had checked in for the flight and But their, and their baggage made it on the plane, but they didn't make it to the plane.

1:58:18BubblemanOf course. And the delay.

1:58:20Ryan Dank AfSo, yeah, we were delayed and it's like, fuck, we're not taking off. And all of a sudden these two RCMP officers show up on the plane and they're walking down the aisle, literally looking at every fucking person in the eye to try to identify, you know, who this person was that they were looking for, make sure they weren't on the flight. And obviously, cause they got to pull their bags if they're not on the flight, right?

1:58:39Ryan Dank AfIt's a bomb risk. So these cops come in and like, now I'm completely convinced that they found the cookies in the garbage can, right? And like, you know, the plane finally took off and it was like three hours into the flight. And, you know, until we were out in international waters, I was sure that the plane could have been pulled down out of the sky at any point in time to get me, right?

1:59:04Ryan Dank AfThe joys of taking too much THC. Yeah, anybody that says it's not a drug, eat like 50 or 100 milligrams and come talk to me.

1:59:13BubblemanOn a plane. Yeah. It's one thing at your house in the comfort of your own home, but like surrounded by strangers on a plane. And then I'll tell you, listen, even if I had not taken those edibles, I would have not been excited about the RCMP getting on the plane. I definitely probably would have had some personal paranoias going on because I probably would have had a lot of hash or some other things on me.

1:59:38BubblemanCrazy.

1:59:38Ryan Dank AfWell, it's being combined with being just completely exhausted. That's why I would stay up the night before, right? Because it's like I find when I'm like completely exhausted and you take a big dose of THC, you're out. So it's like I'd get on and now I've refined the method where like, you know, I don't eat the apples until I'm on the plane. So they don't really kick in until you're asleep.

2:00:01Ryan Dank AfBut yeah, if it's too early and the mind gets racing, man, it can be quite a trip.

2:00:07Etienne FontanI also recommend balancing it with some CBD. Okay. I did that originally with Marinol. I took too many Marinol and was on a plane and yeah, it sucks. It's uncomfortable. Everything about too much THC. Absolutely. Rocks your world. It rocked one guy. I mean, I've said this in the past. One guy took a deca dose, which back in the day was a small thing about the size of a tootsie roll.

2:00:31Etienne FontanYou're supposed to slice off, you know, a little piece to eat it. Well, he ate the whole tootsie roll and that was 100 milligrams. And Marcus, he stripped off all of his clothes and ran up and down the aisle and had to be detained. So at least you held your shit together, bro.

2:00:49BubblemanYeah, I'm pretty good at living on the brink. You know, it's just something I've been practicing for a very, very long time. Just like, like standing at the edge of a, like the chasm, right? Like just this like open hole, black hole to nothing. I did it enough times. I feel like graduating from the Terrence McKenna School of Five Dried Grams in a Dark Room. I can't even count how many times I did that.

2:01:15BubblemanBut I can say that nothing really beats it. Maybe a mop-up LSD dose after processing like two or three grams of crystal. But no, that's, cannabis can get you very close. It's unbelievable. It is unbelievable how close it can get you to like a psychedelic full-blown explosion.

2:01:37Ryan Dank AfThere's a great video online, I sent it to ATN a couple of days ago, of Tom Segura, the comedian, talking about giving his mom a couple of gummies. Holy, that is a hilarious clip. I highly recommend anybody want to laugh, look up Tom Segura, mom, THC gummies, and you will laugh your ass off. It is hilarious. You get right out on the edge, and the less you consume cannabis, the more of a newer user you are, a naive user.

2:02:06Ryan Dank AfYeah, it's a big old slice of humble pie for some people. Yeah.

2:02:20Etienne FontanYou can hear colors. You can see sound.

2:02:24Ryan Dank AfYou can hear other people's thoughts.

2:02:28SpeakerThat's also why, back to the whole hemp schedule three thing, is why I was, while working in Minnesota, when I first started working in Minnesota, it was the vape-only state. Vape and gummy only through two medical licenses. Now owned by Vireo and GTI. And that's it. Two companies in the whole state had medical and it was vape and gummy only, no flour. And the tribe that I was working for had a deal basically where they could produce flour.

2:03:02SpeakerRight. And it was a big controversial thing because in this weird state, all of a sudden, so the tribe was going to be producing flour. And while this was happening, someone pushed this interpretation of Farm Bill and said, oh, yeah, well, we're a gummy and vape state and point three grams per per by dry weight. We can put in these packages and Minnesota started allowing 50 milligrams, up to 50 milligrams going by the 0.3 by dry weight in gummies and selling them to everybody in a state that had been primed for gummy and vape and beverages.

2:03:40SpeakerAll of a sudden, you think, like, really? You're going to just let people buy 50 milligrams, just walk in and just buy it? Like, that seemed like a bold move, like almost from a stoner perspective in this conversation, almost unethical.

2:04:03BubblemanMight as well grab some 50X Salvia while you're there.

2:04:06SpeakerYou know what I mean? Like, just like where it's like, wow, this is like kind of weird. That's like commerce run wild. And then all of a sudden, every other state's like, okay, well, we're going to do that too. And all of a sudden, we're just going to follow this thing and assume that everybody's responsible. And it turned it into this Hydroxy 11 thing. World, right? Where everybody was whacked out on the potential and all these stories started popping up about their moms and their brothers and their kids accidentally taking gummies and this whole thing.

2:04:38SpeakerSo to me, there was kind of an irresponsible thing within the industry. And back to the farmer thing, none of this had to do with the grower. Growers weren't like, oh, I'm going to plant, I'm going to plant some row crops for those. No, it was about black market stuff getting diverted. Into Minnesota and other states and being turned into first as distillate, then into THCA, then it's just legal ingredient.

2:05:04SpeakerAnd that legal ingredient now is available to the real commerce guys, the real marketing guys, which were the gummy, vape, beverage world at the gas station and the liquor store. Yeah, but Mojave, do the math on that. I just did. So a 50 milligram gummy, get it down to 0.3%. That's a 16 gram gummy. No, it's per package, Mark. No, it's per package. Oh, it's per package.

2:05:32SpeakerYeah, yeah. So they just first, they said, oh, you know, if you're allowed by weight to be 0.3, what should the limit be on a package? So then all of a sudden, they're just selling up to 50 milligrams in a package. Well, I think that's something that they could clean up in the next version of the farm bill. That 0.3% was never intended to be used for finished commercial goods, right?

2:05:55SpeakerIt was only meant to be used on flour. But, you know, therein lies the crux of the problem that as soon as you extract 0.3% hemp. You're in non-compliant territory, right? Even if you just top off the colas, right?

2:06:13BubblemanThe 0.3% was just to identify that the plant was hemp and you could grow it under hemp laws. It was never to extract and try to figure out a loophole to make THCA. It was like, here's the thing that maybe people will have a hard time understanding. Hemp as grain is a much bigger value than hemp as THCA. You're entirely correct. And what's happened in the US is they've hijacked

2:07:05SpeakerSo that's the issue is that what they're calling hemp down here in the U.S. isn't hemp at all. It's type 3 cannabis.

2:07:14BubblemanYou guys could have been a real player in the hemp grain world.

2:07:21SpeakerYou know, to tell you the truth, Marcus, they didn't even contemplate a way to bring CBD to market because it's in violation of the FD&C Act. Like I've said before, if you take an active ingredient of an FDA approved drug, CBD, which is the active ingredient of epidiolex, you can't put it in food, feed, or cosmetic, period, for interstate commerce. You can't. Right? So that's, again, going back to what I was saying previous, that's where, again, the HHS secretary, not presidential authority, has basically the power to basically carve that out.

2:07:57SpeakerAnd I think that's the low-lying way that they don't need lobbyists, they don't need a new law, they can just carve out stuff. Because they want it. Bastages.

2:08:10BubblemanI'm sure loving the conversation today. This is like... So much going on with the plant that we love.

2:08:16SpeakerFigure out how they're going to grift on it.

2:08:19BubblemanAlways. You always got to figure out the grift. But you know what? I'll be honest. Like since the day I got involved in cannabis, I met people who were in on the grift. I never... Like, it was just not the most righteous group of people. I mean, of course, I didn't get to go to California in the 60s and 70s.

2:08:34SpeakerWell, Marcus, this was your first time at MJ BizCon. I'd love to know what your, you know, they've called it the Chad's and the Brad's, right? I mean, or the suits, the suits versus the roots, right? Yeah. So what was your take on BizCon? Man, I saw a lot of people who've been going for years were saying it was a waste of time. I saw that. The booth fees are absorbent.

2:08:56BubblemanThey reminded me, they reminded me of those people who had just done 400 fish shows in a row and came out of like the best show ever. And they go, if they play down with disease one more time, I'm going to throw up in my mouth. It's like, maybe, maybe you're done for fish shows. Like maybe you need to go see another band. That's kind of was my advice to the people who are complaining about MJ BizCon.

2:09:20BubblemanI've never been to MJ BizCon. I was just so happy that it was happening and that I could use it as an excuse to To go to visit all of these amazing people that I've been, you know, never been able to meet up with in person, meeting up with my old partners, having... What was the last time you were in Las Vegas?

2:09:37SpeakerNever in my life. Never? Okay, so it was your first time in Las Vegas. So there's the first time in Las Vegas rush too, because I'm sure anybody who's never been to Las Vegas, the first time they go, it's like, holy crap. Dude, I landed.

2:09:51BubblemanMy partners pulled out Bubble Man brand like Pineapple Bliss and all these beautiful flavors. They gave me Puff Co's. They gave me Q-tips. I was just like, is this place for real? Like, this place is amazing. But it wasn't the place. It was the experience and the people that I was with that was amazing. You know, Caleb and I walking around the Cosmo.

2:10:08SpeakerDid they have scantily clad women at your room waiting for you?

2:10:11BubblemanI did not see many scantily clad women. What I'll be honest is I saw a lot of dudes. And I saw like families with their middle-aged wives. Like I didn't see like, because someone asked me that the other day. Oh, you must have seen so many prostitutes walking around the Cosmo. And I was like, I mean, do you remember seeing them, Caleb? We were walking around the Cosmo.

2:10:30BubblemanI didn't see not one.

2:10:32SpeakerReally? You didn't take the detour to the Glamour Girls of Glitter Gulch? I did not take that detour. Jesus Christ. It is a place of sin though, right? I mean, it's kind of like perfect for weed, right? Because there's just all kinds of illegal activity and gangsters and just, it's a pretty unsworthy place, that's for sure.

2:10:54BubblemanYeah, I mean, I could definitely feel that vibe and people had their stories, but everyone I was hanging out with seemed to be on their best behavior. We were just enjoying cannabis. We were talking about cannabis. I was quite happy because my room at the Cosmo, I didn't realize what the Cosmo was. I have no fucking idea. I've never been there in my life. But apparently it was like a central place for all sorts of businesses to have parties out of for MJ BizCon.

2:11:18BubblemanSo we would just bump into people in the elevator and they'd be like, hey, are you guys going up to the 53rd floor? And we'd be like, no, should we be? And And we go up to the 53rd floor and just kind of, I actually, do you want to know who I bumped into, Colin?

2:11:29SpeakerDid you have a balcony view of the Bellagio Fountain?

2:11:33BubblemanYes, I did. Absolutely. Tell me. Okay, so I see this guy on the elevator and he's got Happy Valley on his hoodie. I'm like, Happy Valley. I'm like, I think I might have worked for you guys for a little bit. And he's like, Oh, yeah. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, you might know my friend Colin. And he kind of makes this face. And he's like, Oh, yeah.

2:11:54BubblemanOh, yeah. Yeah, we knew Colin kind of had a falling out with Colin. And I'm like, OK, well, yeah, Colin brought me in for a little bit. I was kind of consulting, helping you guys out with some hash stuff.

2:12:03Collin PalmerAnd he created the whole brand for everybody.

2:12:05BubblemanHe's like, oh, you got to come. You got to come up to the room. So I go up to the room and actually I was pretty stoked because Dred was up there in the room. There was this other dude that was like super gung ho, like wild, excited. It was actually a good experience. But Michael Reardon was up there. The owner of Happy Valley. And I remember I thought immediately I was like, I was like, oh, shit, I better say hi for Colin.

2:12:30Collin PalmerDid you? You should. Yeah, always say hi for me. But that was wild. Remind him why he is where he is.

2:12:37BubblemanOf all the companies for me to bump into in the elevator in Vegas, Happy Valley might have been only the second or third one that I ended up. Because I was just like, I'm open to whoever I bump into that invites me up to a party in their room. I'm going to go check it out. They actually had a much nicer room than I did and a much nicer view than I did.

2:12:59BubblemanSo it was kind of the best, the best photos I got was from that balcony. But yeah, the old, the Happy Valley-ers.

2:13:08SpeakerThat just means that they spent more at checkout. That's all. Yes. Yeah, they're good at spending money. That's what gets you those rooms. Money. That's it. Trust me, I know.

2:13:19Collin PalmerHe knows.

2:13:20SpeakerDon't be impressed by that. Don't misconstrue that though, boys. Because I think that, you know, a lot of people have been saying for years, it's just kind of like, you know, you don't really get the value. Like if you were to get a booth, I think the booths were like starting at like five grand, right? Or something like that.

2:13:41BubblemanIt had to be way more. I heard like 30 to 40 grand for fairly small ones. Yeah, for the real big ones. No, no, no, no, no, no. For small ones, dude. I'm telling you, five by 10, $40,000. The big ones were hundreds of thousands of dollars. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. So talk about a grift, right? Well, I don't know. Do you think those companies are all so stupid that they go there and spend that money?

2:14:02BubblemanAll right, guys, thanks for tuning in.

2:14:21SpeakerWell, I can give you an example. And I think it's, I think it's a split that some companies do just, it's just a gamble. For one, it's Vegas. They want to go there. They want to go party. I used to do Vegas conventions for, for paraphernalia. So I used to work with some head shops and I used to do wholesale glass and with Jerome, used to buy Jerome Bakers and stuff like that and sell them in LA.

2:14:47SpeakerSame time, 18. Yeah. Used to work at Galaxy. Anyway, everyone wants to go to Vegas, right? So the cannabis guys jumped on that whole like, oh, Vegas convention, it's an excuse to go party. So companies would bring huge, I mean, 10, they bring 10 people, man, and pay for like a full trip of 10 people and pay for that big giant 50 or 80,000. I don't know what the cost is, but it's insane.

2:15:10SpeakerAnd I even, I knew some large groups that every year just compressed and compressed and compressed and compressed to the point where like, we're here with two guys this year because there's no real reason to justify paying for 10 plane tickets and 10 hotel rooms and then partying for fucking three days, getting back to work two days late, blah, blah, blah, all that. It's half of just them wanting to use this as a, and be honest, man, Emerald Cup, it was like a vacation.

2:15:43SpeakerI'd go to the Emerald Cup and it was like, you're doing it for business, but it's like going on a vacation. You see all your friends, you get high for fucking two days. It's fantastic, right? It's the best fun. You learn things, you get to go, you know, there's seminars, but MJBiz became like just the big one, right? And from what I've heard from more and more people every year, and I didn't go this year, Thank you so much for joining us.

2:16:29SpeakerThat's a tough sell, right? Like, are you guys making money?

2:16:32BubblemanI just couldn't believe how big it was. And Jair was like, this is tiny compared to what it was. And I was like, that's fine. But it's still fucking huge. I'm doing the math. This is like tens of millions of dollars in booths alone. Yeah. Like, wrap your head around it, dude. It was. And I didn't see a booth with one or two people. I saw booth was like eight and 10 and 12 people just like.

2:16:56BubblemanJust so many people. It just sort of warped my mind a little bit in the sense of the grandiose aspect of it.

2:17:03SpeakerJair was one of the people who made the comment that, yeah, it's done.

2:17:08BubblemanWell, that's because Jair, when he first did it, one of the first years he went, he did like $3 million in sales the first day. He did like $4 million in sales the second day. Like, That is like selling $80. But that's like selling $80 eights. It doesn't last forever. You got to just appreciate it while it is. And when it dissipates, it's not necessarily MJ Biz Conference's fault.

2:17:34SpeakerWell, there's a lot. There's too many. I mean, there's even like there used to be the Emerald Cup. There was High Times Cannabis Cup. There was BizCon. There was Champs. There was, you know, CanMed. Did any of them hold a candle to the size of BizCon, though?

2:17:50BubblemanBecause that was fucking monstrous, dude.

2:17:52SpeakerIt was still the big one. Definitely the same thing for all the conferences, you know. But I'm saying now there's little mini conferences. There's even, there's just, you get conference fatigue. Where it's just, it's not the same thing as like your annual pig pilgrimage.

2:18:08BubblemanDo you want to do 10 diluted conferences or one annual conference where you hit everyone? Cause it happens everywhere, right? It happened in Spain. It happened in Germany. One guy, one group does a conference and then they, they start fighting and this guy didn't pay that guy. And he starts his own conference and now they're doing two conferences. And now there's maybe even a third branch off.

2:18:27BubblemanAnd that's just in each country that that happens. And it kind of, Kind of gets to the point where it's like the person paying to go to the conference and getting a booth is sort of like, damn, dude, like, I wish we could just sort of like get this all in one shot. Get everyone to come rather than like now I'm flying over to Czech Republic and now I'm going to Berlin and now I'm off to Barcelona and now I got to go to Amsterdam and now it's a lot, man.

2:18:53BubblemanHoly shit. You're basically, that's what you do for a living, conferences.

2:18:56SpeakerI know these capital guys who go every year and they never go to the expo at all. They just stay in hotels and meet with people. Yes, trust me. Have business meeting. I'm like, aren't you going to go? Will I see you at the show? No, I don't go to the show. Really? Really?

2:19:12BubblemanI believe it because the umbrella bar where I was very close to in the Boulevard Tower at the Cosmopolitan, this giant fucking horrific, horrendous place, was full of cannabis people the entire time we were there. And we would just go down and harvest people and bring them up and have a session. And we weren't really hanging out at the umbrella bar. But the amount of pure cannabis people that were there, you did not have to go to BizCon at all.

2:19:40BubblemanNot to mention... You could throw any type of event you wanted to throw. If you wanted to like gain access to an unbelievable amount of people in the cannabis industry, they're there. There are a lot of people that are showing up, whether you want to access Chad's, whether you want to access OG's, whatever you want to access, they are there at the MJ Biz Conference, or at least they were there when I was there.

2:20:06SpeakerYeah, the celebs and their entourages too, right? Did Mike Tyson show up?

2:20:10BubblemanI didn't see any like celebs other than Dog Face, which is not really a celeb. That guy's just like a cool fucking homie. I didn't see any like, did we see famous people, Caleb? We saw famous cuts of Jack Harer and famous dabs. Those were the only things we were looking for that were famous.

2:20:31Collin PalmerI think the only other event I've seen that was as big at one point in time was the Palm Springs Hall of Flowers the first time I went to it. That felt, had the same vibe where it was like parties going on and different things every night and every morning there was something and there's just meetings nonstop and So I think, yeah, the chandelier bar and Cosmo.

2:20:58Collin PalmerMark, that's where you and I met. And then we went up to your room.

2:21:03SpeakerThat's where you guys met. That's right.

2:21:06Collin PalmerChandelier.

2:21:06SpeakerThat's too awesome. Romantic night. That's right. And I think yours was the first text message I sent that to, Marcus. Picture of me and Colin. Yeah, that was awesome.

2:21:18BubblemanI had no idea where it was.

2:21:20Collin PalmerThat was in the Cosmo.

2:21:21BubblemanAnd then I would meet Caleb in the Cosmo. How fucking insane is that? Etienne, tell me you met Mojave in the Cosmo.

2:21:30Etienne FontanI have not met Mojave at the Cosmo yet.

2:21:33BubblemanYou gotta make that happen, boys.

2:21:36Collin PalmerWell, next year, man, I'll go next. It was also last minute, man. We should all, Dr. Mark, we should go meet Marcus. Yeah.

2:21:47SpeakerWell, next time Bubble Man comes to Farnham, we should get him to come down here to the United States, right? Because you can, right?

2:21:55Collin PalmerGet him to come to Vermont, yeah. I could drive right down. We'll take him out in Burlington.

2:22:00BubblemanWell, next month is a big one. Next month is hopefully Denver, New York, Michigan. Oh, New York. Yeah, I got to go to New York. New York City? Yeah, New York City. But also upstate New York, both.

2:22:17SpeakerWell, Colin, we should kidnap him.

2:22:19Collin PalmerHe should come to the lab, dude. Marcus should come to the lab in New York. That's what he should do. That should just be on the itinerary.

2:22:32BubblemanI definitely want to go see Fish at the Sphere, though, as well. That's in the bucket list.

2:22:38SpeakerWe're going first weekend.

2:22:40BubblemanNice.

2:22:41SpeakerSo let's make it happen.

2:22:45BubblemanI saw the tickets were fairly expensive.

2:22:48SpeakerOh, fuck, man. Yeah. Yeah. Fishing is a rich man's sport these days. That's for sure.

2:22:55BubblemanI would suspect it is indeed. But you know what? That building is insane. And it definitely took money to build that building. And the whole time I was driving around it in Vegas, I was just like, that is insane. That's insane.

2:23:10SpeakerAnd I didn't even go inside. Or could you see the sphere from your room?

2:23:14BubblemanNo, no, I could see it when I was on the monorail. Oh, okay, you took the monorail over? Yeah, I saw it in the cabs and the Ubers a bunch of times. I think we saw it from your car, Caleb, at one point in time when we were driving over to wherever the heck we were going.

2:23:35BubblemanWhere were we going?

2:23:38SpeakerI should remember, but I can't right now.

2:23:41BubblemanOh, we went to the Italian restaurant.

2:23:45Ryan Dank AfFresco.

2:23:46BubblemanFresco Italiano for the Arcana Rascaia birthday party dinner. I quite enjoyed that, dude. We had the whole restaurant. Those jars of flour. Can we talk about that for a minute? That OG is almost as old as I am. Oh my God, dude. I'm like, how long you been growing this OG for? He's like, since 93, Reverend Fuji. What a fucking OG, man. All those guys are fucking awesome.

2:24:12BubblemanThe flowers they had were some of the tastiest smelling jars I've tasted in an extremely long time. I'm talking like no jar funk whatsoever, like bad jar funk, that weird mono... Thank you for watching.

2:24:46BubblemanYou got off-menu food and off-menu jars. Nice. Dude, it was so good. And top-notch jars, I'm telling you. Like, I can't say enough. And then, of course, Fuji's just so fucking generous. He's just pulling handfuls out and giving them to all my... Because I brought, like... You know, I brought like five or six people with me to that birthday party and I had one seat available. So they were pretty cool to make a whole other table.

2:25:15BubblemanShout out to Andrew and Michael from Arcana and that whole crew because they're just really good guys. Really easy people to sit at a table with. The polar opposite of what I would call a Chad. To be honest. And obviously, Andrew and Michael with this super intense, intimate connection to the Grateful Dead. You could feel that as well. They're just good dudes. Hope to get them on Hash Church again one day soon.

2:25:45SpeakerSo in general, it was a good trip.

2:25:48BubblemanI had a good time, but I was starved, right? It would be like me going to a fish show today, dude. And everyone being like, that was the worst fish show in 20 years. I'd be like, it was the best one I've seen in the last 20 years. It's all about perspective, right? And when you spoil yourself, your perspective can get rotted from the inside out. And so if you find yourself spoiling yourself with any particular thing, it could even be cannabis.

2:26:13BubblemanTake a break. Come back to a fulfillment, a good fulfillment that you get out of it versus, you know, this sort of negativity that I saw towards the end of my fish touring. I saw just people coming up. If they play that again, I was just like, damn, dude, like you need to go see another band. Because this band is upsetting. Yeah, or take better drugs. Yeah, exactly.

2:26:39BubblemanOr take better drugs and go see another band, you know? Or like Trey said in 97 or 98, go get a fucking life. Go do something else. Go travel for God's sakes. I think it was 97 because in 98, that's when me and Henry both randomly went to India and bumped into each other. Henry from The Water Wheel. Henry Schwab. Yeah, I bumped into him in the middle of fucking nowhere in northern India.

2:27:03BubblemanRight after that, I think it was in Vegas, actually, that Trey told everyone to go kind of, you know, do something else like we appreciate you, but holy fuck, like, it's a big world out there.

2:27:16SpeakerAnd it is fucking book.

2:27:18BubblemanYeah, yeah. Read a fucking book, man. All right. It's time for everyone to tell us what you're puffing on. I'm going to puff on some more of this haze live hash rosin from Neil over in Montreal. Thank you, sir. Mark's got the baller jar. Oh, did I tell you I bumped into a dreaded bill? Kind Bill, yeah.

2:27:37SpeakerKind Bill, yeah. You sent me a picture of you and Kind Bill, yeah.

2:27:41BubblemanDude, that was in the middle. That was also in the pit of the fucking demon that is Vegas. Like, I don't even know where the closest door was, but we bumped into him as well, which was pretty cool. Small world.

2:27:56SpeakerYes, that's the live resin meets bubble hash. Yeah. Right?

2:28:03BubblemanYep. We chilled out for a little bit.

2:28:07SpeakerHad you guys met before face to face?

2:28:09BubblemanI do not believe we had, but we definitely shook hands and showed each other the proper respect that was due. Sent me a selfie. I was like, I'm sending this to Dr. Mark right now.

2:28:20Etienne FontanHe's like, yeah, send that to Dr. Mark, man.

2:28:24SpeakerI was like, fucking rights. Oh, you know, Kind Bill's my boy, man. We're all deadheads, go back a long time, so. That's great. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it's a good thing. You know, hey, for that reason alone, Vegas was cool, right? You got to go and, you know, meet, hang out with a bunch of people, you know, Kind Bill, Dread, you know. That's what it's all about.

2:28:50SpeakerIt's all about the connections that you make personally. And if you're going there looking for a job or looking for a client, good luck. But if you're going there just to kind of like hang out with your bros and maybe blow off a little steam before the holidays.

2:29:04BubblemanI'm not going to lie. I found both of those too. It was all available to me. It really was. I would go back during that event just to link up with people. The one person I really regret not bumping into is Craig from Alpenglow and his fam. I would have liked to have seen them. They were so close. But one thing I learned about Vegas is that close is not even fucking close.

2:29:30BubblemanIt's actually quite fucking far away. That's what close is. It's like, look, it's just right there. It's just right across the street. Let's walk over there. 49 minutes later, man, you're not fucking there. 49 minutes later. I'm a fast walker, bro. I don't walk slow. I walk fast. It's like, how many kilometers is this? Why did it look... Like it was just right there. It's like across from your balcony, right?

2:29:52BubblemanYeah, it's the scale of, cause we were, we were at, uh, I was visiting Chris from GPEN, uh, who owns a student glass as well. And he was at the Wynn and the Wynn was basically like, or the Encore, one of the two, the closer one to the, to this convention center. And I looked out his window. I was like, I was like, dude, the convention center is right there.

2:30:13BubblemanAnd he's like, no, it's not. You got to get in an Uber, dude. Don't even think of walking down there. He's like, first of all, look at the roads. Show me where you're going to cross. And I'm like, yeah, exactly.

2:30:23Etienne FontanLooking at the road. I'm like, oh, fuck.

2:30:24BubblemanThere is nowhere to cross. It's like, what the fuck? It just blew my mind.

2:30:29SpeakerWell, and you got to walk through some big ass fucking casino before you get out to the street, right?

2:30:34BubblemanDude, those casinos could give you an anxiety attack if you.

2:30:37SpeakerOh, my God. You get lost in there and never come out. You can't.

2:30:41BubblemanThank God for my Puffco.

2:30:43SpeakerAll the bings and the bongs.

2:30:45BubblemanPuffin, puffin tough.

2:30:48SpeakerCannabis Business Times used to do an event in Vegas that was really good. And it was like a good, it was a, because Cannabis Business Times is not their, their business, it's a business event, but it was always about the business of growing weed more than it wasn't about, it wasn't an investor summit, you know. But that event was really good. And you always had, you always met someone new.

2:31:09SpeakerYou always met, you saw your bros and there was great speakers and good booths and stuff like that. But it was, it was much smaller than MJ, obviously, but it was super focused on kind of plant geek business side. Really valuable, man. And they stopped doing that a couple of years ago, just Because of the challenges of the industry. But that was awesome. I used to go there and have the best time.

2:31:40BubblemanNice. I didn't even know about that one.

2:31:42SpeakerYeah, year after year. They did it for Kenny. Kenny Morrow got me and Rob and we did me and Rob and And Jim Goodwin did a panel with them in like 2017 in Oakland. Yep. And they eventually got to Vegas and it was a big part of their business was that conference. I mean, they were, they were, they're a print magazine, but the conference was big. ATN, you, you spoke at a few of those, I believe, right?

2:32:08Etienne FontanYeah, I gave a, I gave a keynote in 2017.

2:32:12BubblemanYeah. Nice.

2:32:16Etienne FontanGood.

2:32:16BubblemanKay from Tricom Technologies did not talk to me for almost 10 years for promoting and selling those terpenes that Tony made back in the day. He's now re-gotten back in touch with me. And the only thing he'll talk about is how Those fake terpenes destroyed everything, how nobody liked them, how everyone hated them. Can we all agree here once and for all that those fucking terpenes were incredibly tasty and flavorful and I don't remember anyone not fucking liking them when they were here, including Skunk Man Sam who crushed between 50 and 100 vials.

2:32:53BubblemanI mean, say what you want. You know, recently Tony went online on one of the podcasts and he said some things that maybe weren't his story, his history, and he got called out harsh for it. But then people started calling him out for the fake hydrosol terpenes. And I just have to like back him up saying, Dude, those fake hydrosol terpenes were the greatest fucking thing since sliced bread.

2:33:14BubblemanAnd every one of you can admit it because we were dipping and dabbing and fucking taking huge and the taste of the Jack Frost on your lips and all the way down your throat. I'm telling you, dude, like I can give Tony his flowers where his flowers are due. Those terpenes were fucking incredible. Whether, you know, Kay wants to disagree with that or not, that's great. Put something better on the market and show us what you're talking about.

2:33:39BubblemanBut the story of him talking about making rosin with the bowl, that's Chadwick's story. That was just not true at all. And I think if it was true, there'd be a historical context of it here on Hash Church of Tony talking about that when Soil Grown came in on episode 25 and showed all of us how to press flour and hash rosin using a hair straightener. I still didn't hear one of you admit those terpenes were good.

2:34:03BubblemanThat's interesting.

2:34:05Collin PalmerNong, I'll speak out as when you finish. I just wanted to say that I was also there. I lived it. I was in Oakland. I've seen the lab. I taste the turps. And, you know, we've... We were there. I mean, those were not hydrosols. I mean, I know what hydrosols are. Those were cleaned up, post-processed, refined terpenes. And that's what it was.

2:34:30BubblemanI can't speak of any of the science. I saw the COAs. I never did the COAs myself. I just know that the... How good the dabs tasted. Some of the best dabs I ever gave away to people were just like flavorful rosin hits or full melt bubble just ever so lightly dipped into one of those vials. I mean, that was enjoyable. I just don't understand how you could be so upset with the way a history played out, especially someone like Kay, because he's smart as fuck to just disregard the reality that people loved them.

2:35:06SpeakerI never tried them. That's the only reason I didn't. You never tried them? No. Oh, my God.

2:35:10Collin PalmerRed Congolese was amazing. The Congolese was delicious. I remember that.

2:35:14BubblemanDude, that Jack Frost was next fucking level.

2:35:16Collin PalmerOh, the Jack Frost was incredible. I mean, they made me buy packs of seeds of it, to be honest. I taste the turps, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I've got to find this varietal somewhere.

2:35:26SpeakerInteresting fun fact, I just learned that a family friend whose husband was actually a dope grower and a cannabis grower and big sir back in the day, she coined the term hydrosol. She was an aromatherapy chemist lady who, I can't remember her first name. I'll look for it. But it was interesting. It's a new thing. She came up with it and she wrote a few books. Wait, hydrosol?

2:35:57SpeakerYeah. No, hydrosol is a term of chemistry art that's been used for centuries to describe the water of a steam distillation fraction. So when you steam distill anything, you get this huge water fraction. That's the hydrosol, right? That's how they make rose water and other things. It's just all the water soluble terms that come over. What did you say her name was? I'll look it up. Her last name was Rose.

2:36:23BubblemanYou're right. The term hydrosol in the context of aromatherapy and essential oils...

2:36:30Etienne FontanWas coined by Gian Rose in the early 1990s.

2:36:35BubblemanSources vary slightly between 89, 90, and 90, but that is in the context. Prior to this, those waters were commonly called hydrolats, especially in Europe and France, aromatic waters or floral waters. The adoption of hydrosol helped evaluate their recognition as therapeutic products in North America. That's interesting. I always like to go to Grok and see what it has to say. And then, of course, it gives her aromatherapy contributions.

2:37:05SpeakerRuby. She was also a fashion designer who made clothes for the dead.

2:37:11BubblemanI'm going to ask Dr. Mark about the context of hydrosol in chemistry. That's crazy that her name came up, dude.

2:37:21SpeakerYeah, so the hydrosol is the water fraction of a steam distillate. Yes. And steam distillation has been known for centuries.

2:37:31BubblemanYeah, well, the first time hydrosol was used and recorded was around 1860 to 1865, which emerged during the early development of colloid chemistry.

2:37:43SpeakerColloidal chemistry? Okay.

2:37:44BubblemanNo, colloid. Colloid. Which was coined by Thomas Graham Colloid in 1861.

2:37:49Collin PalmerSo I think there's some people in the chat are like, why would you add Terps to stuff? Well, at the time, I don't think any of us really understood enough about it. And we were all extremely excited about the possibilities.

2:38:05BubblemanWe were just having fun. Listen, this is how it started. The funny thing is, this is so fucking crazy. Kay fucking started it all. He called me one day. He's like, I'm with Sasha Shogun and we're making, we're doing terpene extractions. And let me tell you something. You need to get the terpene fraction out of the water and back into the hash. That's what he told me.

2:38:29BubblemanHe called me and said that. Well, I was so fucking busy at the time. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:38:53BubblemanThank you for joining us.

2:39:21BubblemanYou know, like this is this is what it's all about. Make it available to people. And, you know, Tony did do that. He made it available to people. So did I.

2:39:28SpeakerSo the point with Kenny is, is Kenny knew he was on to something big and and he filed a patent on it. Right. And then wanted to somehow commercially exploit that patent. So I think he felt as though, you know, Tony and others kind of did the end around on him.

2:39:46BubblemanWell, when you buy a patent, what you do is, and keep in mind, it was his words that got Tony making terps in the first place. Hope you're listening, Kay. It was your fucking words, bro. You shouldn't have called me. What did you think I was going to do? Keep it a secret? I can't keep anything a secret. Fuck, the only thing I ever kept a secret was Skunk Man Sam's because he showed me and then specifically said, don't tell anyone.

2:40:08BubblemanYou know what part you didn't say at the end of that conversation, Kay? Don't tell anyone. That's the part you forgot.

2:40:41BubblemanSomehow it died off, but I'm telling you, while it was going, I absolutely know for a fact, I loved it beyond trying to make money off of it. It wasn't just about trying to make money. It was really about trying to let other people have access to something instead of sitting like a... Like a wanker on Hash Church and just smoking these turps and being like, oh, if only you guys, if only you peasants could experience this.

2:41:06BubblemanIt's too bad that none of you will ever get to because we're the only ones that know how to do it. Fuck that. That was never my trip. It was always about letting people decide for themselves. And in my last conversation with Kay, he was very much still like those Terps were hydrosols. They were garbage. You guys were con men. You were ripping people off. And I'm like, man, your ability to have lost money on your patent or to be the guy that sold it.

2:41:31BubblemanHe was kind of like fell into the Mila category. You know, she had the bags first, but did she sell the most? Nope. I get it. Butthurt is butthurt. And I'm sorry that you're butthurt because I fucking, I really liked Kay and it sucked not having him as a friend, especially when it was like, I can't be your friend because you're friends with Tony. That's the worst kind of fucking grade eight fucking mentality that I could ever come across.

2:41:57BubblemanBut some of the smartest people I know, in fact, the smartest people I know also, you know, have these strange situations where they They do things like that. And hopefully one day it'll all be good and I'll be able to sit with Kay and enjoy, you know, some of his terps that, you know, here we are 11 years later and still haven't tried.

2:42:19BubblemanThat's a while.

2:42:21SpeakerSo this is the reason why Horatio called me on the Hash Church to begin with, right? It's like Tony is making believe like he understands chemistry, Mark, and you sent him straight.

2:42:34BubblemanWell, I'll tell you, either way, his lack or thereof of chemistry, someone around him knew what they were doing because those terpenes were delicious.

2:42:44SpeakerWell, and here I am 10 years later and still on Ash Church. I did try Kay's terpenes. Delicious? They were delicious. All right. That's what we like to hear. Yeah. But that was, yeah. And it was actually. He used to walk around with a little vial, right, Mo? Well, yeah. It was more like Rob pulling out like the top secret like. Yeah. You know, giving you that look, that Rob David look of like, you know, the NDA with their eyes.

2:43:14BubblemanIt would have been good to hear Skunk Man Sam's palette decipher the difference between the Blue River Terps and Kay's Terps, because I'm telling you, Skunk Man Sam had a pile of those Blue River Terps. And in my opinion, he didn't smoke garbage. You know, that's where Kay's sort of thing just breaks off. It's like, dude, Skunk Man Sam, bro.

2:43:37Collin PalmerNo, they were legit turps. I mean, that's the fact of the matter. I mean, they were legitimately amazing.

2:43:45SpeakerYeah, but I think it's difficult to patent a process like that. That someone else isn't going to somehow rip off. Then put it out there and make it available. When Kenny got pissed at me, Marcus, it's when I went and visited Indra because Indra somehow got involved with some terpene extraction company. I forget exactly what the gymnastics were there. But yeah, he was convinced that Indra was ripping him off too somehow.

2:44:17Collin PalmerJust got to commercialize it, man.

2:44:18BubblemanLike Mark said. You just got to commercialize it. I mean, I think we could have helped Kay personally. I would have promoted Kay's terpenes all day long. It wasn't about whose terpenes they were. Tony had the only ones. And the next 10 to come out of the queue were truly garbage. Like garbage. Like it was unbelievable how bad they were. Which tells you that they don't really know what they're doing.

2:44:46BubblemanWell, you know what? But, you know, I had a guy tell me it's as simple as putting it through the minus 80 or the minus 40 chiller. Like, this is the big difference. If you precipitate it back into a liquid without that temperature, they go yellow. Condensed is the right word, not precipitate. Condensed, sorry. And they esterify. There's esterification of terpenes that occur in the heat where they change into completely different molecules.

2:45:11SpeakerThey do. They do.

2:45:13Collin PalmerIt's hard to get gas from steam. That's why there's other tech that's out there now.

2:45:21SpeakerThe molecules themselves are super fragile. And like you say, just heating them up a little bit, especially in an atmosphere of air, which has got oxygen, they start yellowing and decomposing.

2:45:35BubblemanThat's why we love our yellow rosin. Yeah. Remember when they told us rosin was heating up too much and that it wasn't going to catch on, it wasn't going to be good? Yeah.

2:45:46Collin PalmerWell, color is, as you said, is oxidation in different forms, right? And it depends on what chemical constituents, right, Mark? Like what's there dictates like how clear something is. Like I've pressed things out that came out like super clear, but the turf profiles were, you know, very particular. Welcome, Fletch. Okay, Fletch.

2:46:07Etienne FontanWell, Kay was ahead of his time, right? Kenny was basically a visionary. And the thing about visionaries are they see things that others don't and they point them out. And then sometimes others just run with the ball. And I think this is the case there where You know Tony had the wherewithal to do so and Kay had the concept and the idea but that concept and idea there was different ways to arrive at scientifically and I think that's you know the the eureka moment was there however there was different ways to arrive at eureka and I think there was an underlying frustration because he thought he had the one route there when in fact he didn't and You know, ego, et cetera.

2:46:50Etienne FontanI love Kenny. He's a good guy. He means well, and he's done nothing but show love. But I have to agree, you know, you have to still get it to market. It still has to be there. And down in my refrigerator, I have one of his original encapsulations and separations. I've kept it. historically because you know that's a piece of history right and uh those these are important things to keep but you know i just don't have a museum to donate it to that would actually respect it and treat it in a way that it needs to be respected and kept so this also inlays to something which is you know our history that we have which there's a lot of it But there's no way to display it except in a few places that, you know, like in Amsterdam and in Barcelona.

2:47:39Etienne FontanBut we definitely need something in North America that is proper standalone so that, you know, when people like us die, we can donate our cannabis historical facts to because These are important discoveries. You know, Kay's vision helped spawn a whole series of ideas and concepts that we would still be struggling with if that hadn't, that drop had not been put into the ether, which, you know, Marcus, you did.

2:48:09Etienne FontanYou helped spread the word and you just happened to be right next to a catalyst who was like, hey, I can do this. And You know, this goes to, you know, the ideology of creation as well as, you know, that brings on that whole frustration over, you know, what's patentable in cannabis? What is it? What can I profit off of from cannabis? So it opens up a ethical can of worms that we've never really confronted as much as we've sidelined and gawked at.

2:48:41Etienne FontanBecause we have no like authority or a council of, you know, cannabis experts who deem this is good, this is bad. We've inadvertently become that through our experience. But, you know, there's oversight orgs for every type of, you know, you name it, product, etc. That's all staffed with experts, right? I mean, all your chemistry stuff, Doc, you know, Sheldon, right? All your stuff is all comes from doctors who do write papers and, you know, all kinds of You know, formalities and understanding that put out those white papers so that we can understand what these are.

2:49:17Etienne FontanAnd what we lack in cannabis is scientists doing those types of white papers on such as that, you know, original, you know, We've come to understand and now it's become industry, but we have not followed like regular industry and announced what's happening to the public.

2:49:44Etienne FontanPeople have kept it proprietarily, whereas a lot of other industries, at least agriculturally, tend to share data and information and announce things as they've gone. This is, I think, one of those short findings that we find ourselves at and why there's such a lack of history or understanding of a lot of that is because there's not a lot of it out there to understand or announcements or reference points for people who are Coming out of school to understand.

2:50:13Etienne FontanCorrect me if I'm wrong, Dr. Sheldon and Colin, if I'm wrong.

2:50:17BubblemanI don't think you're wrong. I think to finish it off with Kay, I would say that he's always invited on Hash Church to share his voice. I've invited him countless times to give his perspective. And like I said, the terpenes that did become available Because it's kind of about access, right? Like, I don't give a fuck about your patent. I don't give a fuck about who, I'm like, I'm of the Skunk Man Sam school.

2:50:45BubblemanIt's about access, not who gets to profit. If you get to profit, awesome. I totally am stoked for you. But if you don't, I'm not like overly bummed for you. It's about making it accessible. And UK did make it accessible by simply saying those words to me into the phone receiver. And that was it. That's all that I needed in my head. To kind of push that out into the world.

2:51:06BubblemanAnd I pushed it out to Horatio and Tony. And they went off and did something with it. And yeah, I mean, here in Vancouver, all of a sudden, Horatio had terpenes that were available. People were starting to get to enjoy a different type of bioassay. I mean, my God, we brought those things to Jamaica and absolutely blew the minds of every Jamaican hardcore fan. Smoker that we met.

2:51:31BubblemanIt was just really a fun time in cannabis. And to look back and think that he thinks that was all fraud and con and hype, that kind of bums me out.

2:51:49Collin PalmerYeah, you know, I think, you know, when I was a lot younger, I looked at Tricrim Technologies as like The future, like these guys are on this like next level tip, you know, like there was everything as a young grower I wanted to aspire to kind of be, you know, like they were hanging out with the right crews, they were in the right talks, they were, it just was, they just were doing it, you know what I mean, in the ways that I wanted to be doing it.

2:52:20Collin PalmerAnd so I think, you know, There's, you know, they have a legacy. I don't, in my eyes is what I'm getting at, you know, and there's nothing, no one can take that away from them, you know? So I, you know, but yeah, I think you're right, Marcus. Like it wasn't fraud. Like I was there. I believe every word you're saying. And I hope that, you know, we, Kay does come on.

2:52:47Collin PalmerThat would be cool to hear him have a good, healthy conversation with you about, Past, present, future, and perhaps learn about maybe new things that he's doing, you know?

2:52:59BubblemanHe's always welcome. I don't think he's going to be talking about anything new with us that he's doing anytime soon, but he's definitely always welcome, dude. Like I said, I met Kay a very long, well, not met, but we, Kay and mine and Kay's path crossed a very long time ago. Through our friend Nick, who owned a magazine called Red Eye. And Red Eye Magazine was a magazine that both Kay and I, from very early days, I met Nick in Rob Clark's apartment in Amsterdam.

2:53:33BubblemanWhich I believe he finally doesn't have anymore, which is fucking crazy. So I could probably even say where it was, but I won't. It was in Amsterdam. Always the utmost respect for Father Rob. But I was there and I can't remember who else was there. It was me and Rob and one other guy. And then Nick came in and he was like, oh, I just got my...

2:53:55BubblemanMy hash box for the cannabis cup. I'm a judge and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he thought I was like Rob's nephew or something. I was just like, I don't know what I was like back then. Maybe a kind of trying to be a know-it-all hash guy. But I was just talking about hash. And there's Red Eye Magazine right there that Colin is holding up. I might have an article in there.

2:54:12BubblemanIf not, Kay probably definitely does. And if not, definitely Nick does. You definitely do. And I think you're...

2:54:20Collin PalmerThere's a really cool Jelly Hash.

2:54:22BubblemanOh, yeah, yeah. That's Rez Dog and Soma. That was when Rez Dog showed Soma how to make BHO. There you go.

2:54:29Etienne FontanThey interviewed, they came to BGG and interviewed us because my lawyer was all worried because I let them take a shot of inside the cabinet and there's just all this weed, which is something.

2:54:44BubblemanNick was a madman, first of all. He would go to Morocco under the disguise as a coffee shop sniffer and he would go and take pictures of tons of hash and meet like hash fucking like massive gangsters back in the day that like ran the scene like seriously scary fucking people and then totally exposed them and wrote like a 12-page article on them. But when I met him at Rob's, he pulled out his High Times Cannabis Cup hashes And I, it's funny enough, I think you guys won that year, Mojave, the Sage 2-0 from the Katsu.

2:55:19BubblemanYeah, because I saw it in the little thing and I pulled it out and I opened it and I said, here's your winner right here. And I, I don't know, I was just being cocky, but then it ended up winning and Nick was like, hit me up afterwards. He's like, would you like to write for my magazine? I was like, fuck yeah, I'll write for your magazine, homie.

2:55:36BubblemanNo problem. Let's do it. And that's how I ended up writing for there. And that's how I met Kay from Tricone Technologies. I don't think I have my Tricone Technologies things anymore, but God.

2:55:47Etienne FontanWhatever happened to Red Eye Magazine? I mean, that was really a quality.

2:55:51BubblemanWell, Nick got sick. Nick got very, very sick. He eventually passed away. Check out the burglar mask he's got on. That's Nick. He's got the hand burglar. That's Zorro. He always wrote under the handle Zorro. The Zorro mask? Putting himself at absolute and total fucking risk to write cannabis articles. He had the least amount of advertisements. So the magazine was all these like 12 and 13 and 15 page articles that were just like glossy photographs.

2:56:18BubblemanAnd like Nick would say everything that that he didn't give a fuck. He get he had zero fucks to give that guy. And God bless him because he was really a pretty good fucking human being. I miss him for sure. As much as he chain smoked cigarettes and smashed beer every second that I was with him. He was awesome. Yeah, there's a trichome technologies right there. Yeah, I mean, always looking forward to reading Kay's articles.

2:56:43Collin PalmerThey were awesome. Awesome stuff. You know, like, absolutely, you know, growing. It holds up to today. Yeah, 100%. I mean, he had all the You know, I mean, it looks, you know, by today's standards, you're like, what the hell? But back then, you know, we're like, you know, it's, it was amazing to have that, you know, Tricom Tech Buds by Kay. Here you go. Yeah. Mad respect, Kay, you know, like, I don't know.

2:57:11Collin PalmerDefinitely ahead of his time. And then here you are, buddy. Boom.

2:57:16BubblemanYeah, that's this. That's the old pointillism, right? Right, right here.

2:57:21Collin PalmerYep. Yeah, I still have all these magazines, man. It's amazing to go back through them.

2:57:30BubblemanLike The Field, you know, Morocco. Yeah, dude. He could never go back after that last article he wrote on Mr. Big. Read that one. Holy shit. Talk about exposing a guy.

2:57:44Collin PalmerOh, speaking of it.

2:57:47BubblemanYeah, dude, trust me. That's the soap bar story. That's a fucking crazy article.

2:57:54Collin PalmerOh, my God, dude. Dude, check out Hemp News with the seed breeders' names. This is like Nirvana right in there. There's seed breeder Steve in the middle. Oh, yeah. Spice of life.

2:58:10BubblemanEnterprise Seeds. Oh, yeah. Where are you at, Fletch? Are you in Hawaii again? That's what I thought.

2:58:21Archive SeedsYep, yep. A couple hours behind you.

2:58:24BubblemanFuck yeah, dude. Okay, shit. No wonder. That's crazy. Hawaii is not easy to make hash church at 9 a.m.

2:58:31Archive SeedsI mean, unless you're really dedicated. I guess I'm not that dedicated. We appreciate you showing up, dude. With the terpene extraction stuff, did that ever really... Okay, it took off a little bit for a minute. And then it's kind of died off. And did anybody figure out basically the reason why? I mean, my perception was that it seemed like there was a small group of varieties that it worked well for.

2:59:02Archive SeedsAnd then other varieties that didn't really hold on to the smell and flavor. Like I think... Girl Scout Cookies is a good example of a variety that kind of loses it in extraction. As soon as it gets heated up a little bit, it kind of loses the nuance of the flavor. Where something like Lemon G or Super Silver Haze, they maintain it really, really well. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

2:59:26Archive SeedsI think...

2:59:28BubblemanI was never there while it was happening, but what it seemed like was happening was that fresh frozen flour was being used to extract terps where the cannabinoids weren't really the focus at all. And it wasn't, it just, the economics of it was insane unless you were growing fields of weed. I think also, you know, when Kay says it was all hype, well, I think that that's not correct, but there was definitely hype involved in the sense that We were experiencing something new in the cannabis world.

2:59:58BubblemanIt was just this new thing that was kind of like the old terp dip, bong rip, double dip, bong rip. It was just fun. There was fun involved in turning new people on, like having a flavor of a dab on your lips for like five minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes after you've taken the dab. I'd tell people, hey, lick your lips and they'd give it a little lick and go, holy shit.

3:00:21BubblemanThere was a funness to that. And I'm not sure that it was beyond the most hardcore. The people that were the most hardcore at bioassay and growing and hash making, it wasn't for this new giant group of people who had an interest in trying a gummy or a beverage. But yeah, I don't know why. Because I guess it came and went because the industry clearly didn't want more of it.

3:00:52Collin PalmerI also think at the time like most people didn't really know how to make hash the way that us here perhaps know how to make hash and it was a real nice way to bring flavor to things that didn't have much of flavor. So I think it was exciting in those ways but as it's evolved it feels like you can capture those things along the linear process rather than have to deconstruct it so much.

3:01:15Collin PalmerBut there's definitely a place for it. I think, you know, Terpene Belt Farms is one to call out, you know, like what they've done essentially with their breeding projects is they've been able to kind of get a bucket system together of sorts. And, you know, like you said, like the lemon G's really work well. Some of the sweet categories really work well. But largely the gas is a tough one.

3:01:38Collin PalmerIt's like really hard to nail when you're using steam distillation. From what I understand, it's just the sulfur compounds and those thiols are very difficult. So you'd really want like a hydrocarbon.

3:01:51BubblemanWhich would speak volumes to what Fletch just said, right? Why are some of them not translating? Well, maybe some of them have more thiols and thiolates and long chain sulfur compounds that are more volatile. Yeah, water soluble.

3:02:03Collin PalmerYeah, Mark just said it, they're water soluble, so it's, you know, it's hard to capture those notes at scale, but I think they do a good enough job, you know, to get people the right ingredients so they don't have to use things that are coming from plants that aren't in the cannabis world, you know, because that's, you know, there's a toxicology thing that is not really talked about at all with these, you know, when we talk about terpenes and You know, because we're talking about things that come from the plant, but a lot of people, maybe listeners out there, they don't know the difference between botanical and cannabis diverge.

3:02:42Collin PalmerAnd that's also, I think, a big issue because people are expecting profiles that on the shelf that sit next to each other. And some factually do come from a plant and some are just constructed. And that's awesome that people can construct these things, but it's very difficult to You know, Dr. Mark, you know, maybe you can chime in on it to be nature's chemist and get all of what's there.

3:03:06SpeakerWell, yeah, you can't, you can't. And the other thing, there are two things that affect it. You know, one thing is, yeah, the water solubles are going to be lost in steam distillation, right? They're stuck in the salt, right? But the other thing is the amount, you know, like when you smoke, Thank you for joining us.

3:03:52BubblemanAnd I never got burnt rubber. We were taking huge dips at one point, which was for sure way too much. And dude, it did not taste like burnt rubber. I also will add, I got a buddy hitting me up on Instagram right now, a dude that I met through Blue River selling turps. He just sent me a bunch of pictures of all of his old jars in his drawer.

3:04:15BubblemanHe said they still have residue and killer for a quick waft. He also said the lemon kush smells like the day I bought it. And I'm not lying. I have little jars that are the same way. This jar is probably like eight years old. It smells fucking delicious. Like who's going to deny that?

3:04:36Ryan Dank AfThat trips me out.

3:04:40BubblemanMaybe they'll make a comeback. Either way, now we're separating them and putting them in with diamonds and doing all of these other things. Go ahead, Dr. Mark.

3:04:46SpeakerYeah, I was just going to say the quote, John Barlow, right? Too much of everything is just enough, right? You know, like if, I don't know. In some cases, yeah, more isn't really going to potentiate, but more might give you, you get five minutes later with your lips, you're still going to taste it, right? But it may have like a certain maximum at which it no longer potentiates the cannabinoids, like THC.

3:05:20SpeakerSo no longer potentiates it. So at that point, Any excess you're getting is just, again, too much of everything.

3:05:27BubblemanThat's it, man. Like I said, I always followed Skunk Man Sam and the fact that he just kept, hey, you got any more vials of those turps? I'm like, yeah, I'll send you some vials, dude, absolutely. I just never thought of that guy to be a guy to want to smoke schwag. You know, he always set the bar the highest.

3:05:44SpeakerPut him in that bucket of people who likes drinking from a fire hose.

3:05:49BubblemanYeah, I'm with him. I am with him. That's awesome.

3:05:55SpeakerBye, motherfuckers.

3:05:57Archive SeedsI got the eucalyptus terps. Plays into rosin too, where we have varieties that don't seem to translate as well. You know, the heat kind of destroys or converts some of the compounds. And I think that's why when you really ask, You know, particularly people that spend a lot of time working with hash, the majority of them will tell you a really, really clean water hash extraction is their favorite product to consume.

3:06:26Archive SeedsJust because it's the most true to type of the variety. I think that's why most people prefer it is it tastes like it's been, it tastes like it has not been adultered in some way. Whereas rosin and a lot of these other processes, you know, Do degrade the product, some in particular more than others. And that's maybe part of the preference of different types of extraction as well.

3:06:55BubblemanYeah, absolutely. I mean, the bottom line is things that are good stick around, things that aren't move on. There's always these sort of trends that happen. It's so difficult to discuss things. The community as a whole, because it's so many different pieces and your whole may be over here, but it's not the same as this person's whole. And there's some of us that are, you know, putting a lot more attention into this.

3:07:22BubblemanLike you said, people that are growing every day, people that are making hash every day, that's different from someone who's buying a pre-roll every day. They're just very, very different places to be. I'm just glad they all exist. You know, I used to be a bit of a, well, maybe a lot of a Thank you so much for joining us.

3:08:01BubblemanLove the idea of just more and more and more access for people to get cannabis in wherever they sit. Understand what I mean?

3:08:13Archive SeedsWell, I think what's, I completely agree with you at this point because we're in a transition from lack of access to actually having access. But I think as time goes on, and I think we're seeing this in almost every legal market, is that the bottom continues to move its way up. So what used to be beasters and brick weed is now shitty indoor. And what used to be no melt Nebraska is now 50 melt for $5 a gram.

3:08:45Archive SeedsThe bottom keeps moving its way up, which means that the top has to continue to try to innovate itself to keep that gap and that distance. And I think to a certain degree, we're running out of tricks. To make pure, more true to type extractions, I think the freeze dried rosin is about as close as you can get. I'm sure there is small bits of innovation that can happen in that process, but the gains are very minute to be had from this point going forward on the solventless products, it seems like at least.

3:09:28Archive SeedsThe access to all these, this better equipment really, and the access to information is really, you know, you're seeing some really high quality hash for really cheap prices these days compared to just what it was five years ago.

3:09:44BubblemanIt's true. And then when I look at these guys, I went with Ian Davidson, who was working with Segra. But prior to that, he had Davidson Organics and he was growing for DNA and burner and cookies and all those guys before that. I went to a giant vegetable farmer here in Vancouver in the lower mainland. They have, you know, like $150 million with an infrastructure growing peppers and tomatoes, hothouse.

3:10:13BubblemanAnd I just thought these motherfuckers are selling this shit for 15 cents a pound and still turning a profit. Like, where are we going wrong in the cannabis world?

3:10:23Archive SeedsI mean, are you sure that there's no public funding that's helping stand up some of those programs? Because what we're seeing in a lot of countries is that, you know, there's a lot of public assistance for agricultural producers. I mean, we just saw what did Trump do, $12 billion that we just gave to farmers in America because of the results of the tariffs and everything else. So there's a lot of things in commercial agriculture that Exist and make money today because of government assistance, not necessarily because...

3:11:00Archive SeedsBecause it's a viable business on its own right in that specific area with the high cost of operation or labor or whatever else it is. A lot of the time with ag too, they may be like sitting on a natural gas well and now they have free energy to be able to run this big greenhouse off of. So I'm not saying it's the case with that place.

3:11:23Archive SeedsI'm just saying with a lot of commercial agriculture, it's, It's good to keep that in mind and make sure that the business model that we're looking at isn't a publicly funded operation that allows it to be successful.

3:11:38BubblemanThousand percent. I do not deny that at all. And we have a lot of subsidies in Canada, but hothouse cucumbers and tomatoes are not directly subsidized by the Canadian government. Not in the form of production quotas, price supports or per unit payments. We just don't have that. There are sectors that you can access. These guys were just growing really beautiful tomatoes and cucumbers and somehow turning a profit.

3:12:02BubblemanI just couldn't wrap my head around that they spent 150 million on greenhouses. Mojave, go ahead.

3:12:09SpeakerWell, I think there's two things at play, Marcus, that make it so that can be profitable for them. One is that The cost to produce cannabis is mostly on the regulatory burden, a prohibition artifact. So people who are growing weed for $150 a pound, over $100 of that is just noise that wouldn't exist if it were just a regular agricultural commodity. So the price could be way lower, which would create way wider margins for lower costs.

3:12:41SpeakerAnyway, but the other thing is that The scalability of other crops, how much cucumbers the world consumes is a lot. How many tomatoes they consume? A lot. Cilantro, everything, just masses. So if you only make a dollar a bushel of corn profit and you need to make a million dollars, then you need to grow a million bushels, right? And it works. You see commodities where people like in California, alfalfa hay is I think a $2 billion a year industries.

3:13:13SpeakerHey, growing hay and selling hay for feed, right? So with cannabis, you can't scale it up. That's what we learned in California. You can't just scale it up and assume that there's someone there to buy more cannabis if you just grow more cannabis because you make less this year. So if your margin's thin exponentially over and over again, what do you need to do? You need to grow more acres to assume that space the same way the cucumber and the cilantro guy does it.

3:13:42SpeakerBut with cannabis, it's a finite amount of space you need. There's a finite amount of customers. There's all the regulatory burden. There's limited access to international or interstate or all that. So then you end up stuck. And there's no way out of it other than all of the shackles being removed. But the problem is you remove all the shackles, now a few groups who are good at what they do and they could be organic regenerative farmers whatever can literally just grow the bulk of the supply for everybody it does it's not like corn where you just need to have a huge amount of it grown all over the place because the supply chain requires this a massive amount so we're kind of stuck in this thing where the family farmer the future for the family farmer in cannabis Honestly, it's kind of grim in terms of you're not going to be able to be just a small acreage guy who produces enough money to feed your family unless you've got something really, really different, a process or genetics or something to increase the value.

3:14:48SpeakerOtherwise, you're stuck in this commodity lane and that place cannabis doesn't match other agricultural commodities. So it just doesn't fit, unfortunately. And we didn't think, I don't think any of us thought that way for decades because we all just looked at the cost, the prohibition cost, and we put cannabis up with cucumbers because we assumed like, holy shit, like people make so much, the value is so high, it must be the same.

3:15:18SpeakerBut there's not a bunch of tractors that need to be built. So there's not subsidies. There's not tens of thousands of jobs of people harvesting and all that stuff. So there's not subsidies for wages. There's not subsidies for companies. All of that. It's not the same. It's really closer to like poppies. or tulips or I mean or orchids or some type of specialty crop that really just exists on the supply side in a very small sector.

3:15:46SpeakerI mean, all the world's opiates come from just a few people who make all the opiates to be distributed to millions and millions and millions of people. So it's like that's really the I mean, to be perfectly honest, that's the future for cannabis as well if it gets normalized.

3:16:06BubblemanCrazy, it'll all just come from one little island. Maybe. I'm hoping terroir becomes a thing, that terroir becomes a thing and that gives value to everyone who has terroir. You grow your unique terroir and then you export it in the flavor profiles of your plants.

3:16:25SpeakerBut that doesn't address scale. So the whole thing is like, how many people can exploit the terroir of a local region to say like, my company's gonna say, hey, we've got this amazing terroir and we're gonna be the only people who can capitalize on it because it's exclusive. Well, that's not right. You're all in Humboldt or you're all in Santa Barbara. You're all in the same terroir.

3:16:47SpeakerYou have to share that as a collective the same way wine people do through an appellation. But then you're limited to how many businesses can function within that appellation and within even that terroir.

3:16:59BubblemanI guess it depends on how popular that appellation and terroir becomes worldwide.

3:17:05SpeakerExactly. And that's the key. And that's the key. And I mean, look at France. France had a huge, they capitalized off of selling terroir and the legacy and the tradition until California said, well, I think we got pretty good terroir. And then Australia said, I think we got good terroir too. And then South Africa said, we got good terroir. And then Argentina said, we got good terroir.

3:17:27SpeakerAnd then Chile said, we got good terroir. Yeah, we're going to do. Really, really good wine, and it's really good. And did they all elevate up to Chateau Lafite? No, they didn't, but they did claw away a lot of the business from those farmers in France as well.

3:17:43Etienne FontanProsecco would like to talk to you, and Sparkling Wine would like to talk to you as well.

3:17:48SpeakerYeah, exactly. No, it's weird. And then the weird thing is like, as that was happening in wine, they were stealing the names and the legacy through Bordeaux and Champagne and Burgundy. And in California, you drink jug wines of Burgundy And the French are like, what do you mean? That's not Burgundy. It's not from Burgundy, France. You can't just take our legacy and mass scale this thing. And you guys don't even have the right terroir to say that you did that because we have this system.

3:18:17SpeakerSo it really it's challenging. And then and then the whole Appalachian terroir thing is also tied to land intrinsically. So it takes away the ability to grow In greenhouses, under lights, in pots, containers, all of that, you've got to be really true to the regenerative thing that is the air, the sun, the soil, the water at that land. So it's a, I'm just, and I always sound like a naysayer, but it's a real double-edged sword any way you take it, where, like in California, and Caleb understands this very well, like working with all these different advocacy groups to try and get farmers to Steve Adubato, Steve Adubato, Steve Adubato

3:19:18SpeakerIt just doesn't apply. And that's the hard pill is that most businesses, most models, they don't fit into these future cannabis commerce industrialization models. And that's why back to the whole thing, as long as they let us grow our plants in the backyard and share it with our friends, To me, we won this whole thing, and we all might've lost out on some opportunities for business, but we all won in terms of advocates for the plant.

3:19:49Collin PalmerHowever it- So you don't believe that there could be a world where, because let's be real, the square footage does matter. There is such a thing as too small, right? To your point. But I wonder often, like what happened in wine, And it's still continuing to happen in that world. Consumers do need and want exactly what Marcus laid out. People and producers that do have a specific product that they bring to market and, you know, the region that they're from, you know, and I don't know, I wonder when the walls come down and there's free, you know, free enterprise, you'd freedom to buy.

3:20:38Collin PalmerWhat people are going to, you know, put their, put their back pocket forward, you know, forward with, you know, with what, you know, why not be terroir, you know, I guess is the better.

3:20:49SpeakerI agree. But my point is, and I've had this conversation with guys who work in wine appellation systems as well as like when you say that for specifically, like when you talk about terroir and you talk about appellation, then for one, just to the point of you'd have to eliminate all the other forms of production that don't apply to Thank you so much for joining us.

3:21:27SpeakerIn terms of how you can elevate your brand, like in California this year, we had a huge wine glut and they just left billions and billions of grapes on the vine to rot this year because they're already experiencing in wine the same issues that we're experiencing in cannabis, which is you can't just keep planning more as the margins thin. Sure. You just can't keep doing it. And you can't all be the guy who has that app that has that Chateau thing with that beautiful story.

3:21:57SpeakerMost of the people who grow wine grapes just grow them to sell to somebody who crushes them and puts them in their bottle.

3:22:05Collin PalmerSo it goes back to like, I guess like the, what I'm hearing from you like indirectly is like the systems matter more than like anything else. Like how quickly can they replace the bottle after it's sold? And like, can those buyers rely on them? At the end of the day, it's no different than...

3:22:23SpeakerWell, it's how many jobs can it sustain? Because we're all, I mean, I was raised on cannabis money. My family is raised on cannabis money. Like it's been our whole life. Like every calorie that my kids have eaten has come from the sale of cannabis. And so indirectly one way or the other, not through me, but as a consultant or as a grower or whatever. So it's about the sustainability of people's livelihood.

3:22:51SpeakerAnd the reality is most of the jobs in the current cannabis thing are based off of this artifact of prohibition. And when you start looking at a future normalization model in terms of production, distribution, all of that international, you realize that most of the jobs contract with the price compression. That they're they're not they're not really going to be there. And that's just that's the hard pill I'm trying to say is like when you compare it to other ag crops where you go, you can go online and say, well, how many jobs does an acre of corn sustain?

3:23:25SpeakerHow many jobs is an acre of soybeans or cucumbers? How many jobs are there? What's the average wage? Blah, blah, blah. With cannabis, it's been this massive collapse. But that's the that's the story of the collapse of the artificially inflated price of a plant.

3:23:40Collin PalmerThat's really easy to grow as we as we touched on like way earlier. Yeah, well, you're right.

3:23:45Archive SeedsIt's it's also the story of industrial production of an ag commodity, right? It's like that's really what it is, is you you turn it from one guy, one person producing 100 square feet To one person per two acres now or whatever it is. And it's that industrial scale of production that compresses the price and gets rid of all the jobs and gets rid of all the small businesses and everything else, which is why even 15 years ago, I always advocated for the best thing for legal cannabis is one very simple law.

3:24:21Archive SeedsSquare footage cap on production. So each license can only do, let's call it a thousand square feet of production. If they had done that, there would have been no corporate investment because what's the maximum revenue of a thousand square feet of production? Not a whole lot. Almost every illegal grower would try to get into the legal business because it's only small guys. It's only thousand square foot guys, maximum.

3:24:50Archive SeedsThat's it. No one ever has too much production because you only got a thousand square feet. It's literally the same thing as what farmers unions do to keep ag crop prices high up. It's, hey, we're going to split up based on the amount of acreage you own. Here's how much everybody's going to grow. And that would have been the only real solution to the problem that we have now.

3:25:11Archive SeedsAnd like you said, prohibition was that square footage cap, right? It was the police preventing you from growing too many square feet. And therefore you had a very diverse, Massive business that sustained thousands and tens of thousands of jobs per state just to supply small scale home grow production to supply an entire industrial demand.

3:25:40SpeakerYeah, if you look at Salinas County and you think that they were drunk on Square footage and taxes, how many square, how many dollars per square foot they got. So let's issue lots of square footage to anyone we can. And now there's like this big crash in revenue from like all the, all the cops in the fire department and the schools were like, Hey man, we were getting a lot of money from you cannabis guys like two years ago.

3:26:08SpeakerAnd now it's like, well, they're all gone. They're all gone. There's just a few left. They're all failed as business models because nobody really thought it out. It's just, it's weird. You know, it's almost...

3:26:23Etienne FontanWe all built the airplane while flying it, right? Some of us, well, all right, none of us had plans. All right, none of us had plans how to build the airplane properly, okay? Let's just state that. We were all a bunch of activists who had ideas, utopian concepts of what we envisioned, okay? And what we envisioned is not what we see, but what we envisioned was never going to be Thank you for watching.

3:27:05Etienne FontanRight? Because we danced around prohibition. It was the cost of prohibition. It was, why was, you know, Colin, you said 8,500 pounds. Why are we paying $8,500 a pound? Because we're risking our motherfucking freedom to actually do this shit. We got caught. We went directly to jail. There was no pay $200. You were lucky to find a lawyer. You were stuck with, you know, nine times out of 10, a public fucking defender.

3:27:30Etienne FontanOkay. No one was rich. No one was utopian. There was no Elon Musk with a concept of an idea of an idea, right? It only got penetrated because Dennis Perrone got tired of watching all of his friends dying on him in San Francisco and said, fuck this shit. I'm just going to open it up and see what the hell happens. Okay, there's the first architect and he didn't even know what he was doing.

3:28:00Etienne FontanHe built it by the fucking seat of his pants. And what did we all do? We jumped in right with him. And then they kicked him out. We're like, we're just going to continue doing what he did. Right. And that's basically what happened, especially as early ones. And what else did we do? We said, OK, here's my door. It is open to you. I'm not going to charge you.

3:28:21Etienne FontanYou come here and you learn what we do. And we did. We taught countless people all over the country. How to do dispensary, right? They're based on our model, which is a pretty vanilla fucking model on how to, you know, get cannabis, distribute it to local people so that they grow the cannabis and then it comes back to you for you to sell it. None of us ever envisioned corporations running a whole bunch of mid-grade cannabis, right?

3:28:48Etienne FontanWe were all with the idea that we were all going to, what we saw kind of with 215, a whole bunch of people growing small batch cannabis, being able to sell it for a livable wage and, you know, continue on doing what they did. And they got so used to it that they Over time, the price has changed, right? It changed from the $8,500 down to $7,000 down to $6,000 down to $45,000 down to $32,000.

3:29:15Etienne FontanThen now it's what? $100.

3:29:20Collin PalmerBut ATN, the other thing I want to say is like I remember a time when I went down to Selena's to this farm that was extremely large at the time and we were consulting a little bit and I was there just to buy actually material for Fresh Rosen and we were assessing it and what I recognized even then and I'm thinking about it now as you talk is like dude they put plants in before they even had the the The roof over the head of these plants.

3:29:50Collin PalmerI have photos that I look at from that day still and I just laugh. I'm like, they had packed as many plants as they could into these tables and it just was a mess.

3:30:01Collin PalmerWe got 144.

3:30:05Etienne FontanIn Oakland, we were allowed 144 plants in a 4x8 area. Yeah, they were kind of stacked on each other.

3:30:11Collin PalmerSo my point was like, but this was like the large, you know, this was 64 when everyone was rushing to get infrastructure and they didn't really understand what infrastructure even meant at the time. Because nobody had actually grown cannabis at that scale commercially under rules and regs, right? We have to remind ourselves I was being tasked with people being like, can you find someone to run 12,500 square feet?

3:30:36Collin PalmerI'm like, do you realize that there's probably five guys that I even maybe even know that could say they've ever even done that? And that's the other thing that we forget is like the scale... We shoehorn this thing like big time from an ag perspective, you know, and that feels wrong looking back. You know, I think if we had just been a little bit smarter and not rush so much towards this imaginative P&L, then I don't know, maybe we'd have a stronger industry and business as a result.

3:31:07SpeakerWell, but the irony is that the reason Glasshouse backdoors all their product or a lot of their product, so I've heard, I don't know, but so the rumors tell me, but is because that model and literally it's not, they weren't, they knew that the only way to profit was through interstate commerce, the same way the tomatoes that came out of the facility before them did. Right. Back to Marcus's point, the only way that that works, right?

3:31:34SpeakerAnd they knew that. And same even, honestly, I think there's even in an article about the collapse of Salinas tax revenue, that when stateside and D'Angelo pushed and killed the price cap, the cap, On in California, they did that and they built that infrastructure in Salinas because they actually thought Salinas was going to feed the nation the same way it does with vegetables. They really, it wasn't for internal California.

3:32:08Collin PalmerThey really- He was on Vice saying that, I think, I believe. I remember- 100%. Yeah.

3:32:11SpeakerSo the push at 64 was like, okay, we vote on this thing in 2016. We implement it in 2018. By 2020 or so, we're looking at interstate commerce.

3:32:27SpeakerOr 2024 or something because it has to be moving this direction nationally. Otherwise, all these models don't work for large scale cannabis, especially in the state that already grew enough weed already. So it's like, to me, this was a failure, not necessarily a failure of having the foresight to know whether or not they needed a roof or whether or not they needed the infrastructure. It's the failure to push the cannabis agenda all the way through so that ag models can work, interstate comms can work.

3:33:00SpeakerAnd then all these people who are a little bit ahead of the curve and said like, hey, I'm going to buy in. They fucked it up because now they have to feed the trap market or they have to feed the shitty weed market or they just fail as an industry altogether and start growing cilantro again.

3:33:18Collin PalmerYeah, I mean, the most of the older heads that I know that have been, they're kind of like, not tapped out, but just kind of like, you know, on fire, you know, that are, you know, two decades older than I am, you know, they all thought it would be wrapped up and gone, done. Like, everything you're saying, Mojave, would have already happened and would have been pushed all the way to the point of legalization.

3:33:41Collin PalmerAnd you're right, the model in those systems would actually work.

3:33:47Archive SeedsThe thing that we know about industrial agriculture, though, is that it doesn't work anywhere that you have to pay real wage labor costs. That's why everything is done offshore or it has to be subsidized. I mean, there's probably no agricultural crop in California that would survive without A, federal subsidies and B, interstate commerce, period.

3:34:18BubblemanAnd C, Mexicans. Nothing, not almonds, not anything. Let's not forget the Mexicans.

3:34:26Archive SeedsWell, without their labor, that wouldn't be possible as well. It wouldn't. But even with their labor as cheap as it is comparatively, those companies still couldn't afford to pay illegal workers. Without subsidies and farmers unions and whatever crop you're talking about, it all needs assistance because it's too easy to grow too much all at once. And the real fact is just that We have to recognize that industrial agricultural does not work.

3:35:05Archive SeedsAnd the only solution there ever was if you wanted to have a robust market like there was in cannabis before with prohibition was to cap square footage. There's no industrial model that works. If there were, there'd be some other crop you could point to for me. That industrial production of it worked out well for the farmers and all the small workers and ended up in a robust small market.

3:35:33Archive SeedsIt's like that doesn't exist. The only market that exists like that is farmers markets. That's it. And so the only real solution was production caps. And what's funny is, you know, Exactly 10 years ago, there was one company that entered the cannabis space that spent an inordinate amount of money investing in it. And I told them this is exactly what was going to happen 10 years ago.

3:36:01Archive SeedsAnd it was going to collapse the businesses that they were buying, the hydroponics industry, around them. And the only thing that was going to essentially save the cannabis industry at that point, in my opinion, Would have been a significant lobbying effort to have production caps. That would have been the only solution there was. Without that, any model that allowed industrialized production was going to end up in this situation no matter what.

3:36:38Etienne FontanYeah, there's no infrastructure, no understanding of what that infrastructure was or is, because none of us came from that industrialization. We all came from small, you know, communal gross tops, right? None of us were really pushing the cartel limits, right? You know, the cartels were the really ones growing at a large scale, you know. There's enough business for

3:37:00Archive SeedsThat's what everybody would say back then. And it's like, no, there isn't, actually. I remember a guy saying, you can grow as much OG as you possibly want, and it'll never be enough. And I was like, you guys are completely wrong. I promise you, you're wrong. That may be the situation today, but it takes three months to grow the plant. And once you have competition in the marketplace, the only place...

3:37:25Archive SeedsWith the supply increasing, there's only one place for price and demand to go, and that's down.

3:37:32BubblemanBut somehow we're still getting food.

3:37:36Etienne FontanSomehow we're still getting weed, and somehow there's still a lot of underground weed going and growing, you know, so it's not stopping.

3:37:44Archive SeedsNot much. I mean, I feel like the hydroponic stores is the best example of how much black market weed is being grown. And I would bet in Oregon and Washington, and even California at this point, I would say at least 60 to 70% of the grow shops are closed, if not more. It's more up in Washington and Oregon. It's more than that.

3:38:08Etienne FontanWe used to have 14 in the Bay Area. Now they're consolidating like two or three tops. All the top stores that used to gouge us, remember the extra 30% for you new 49er gold miners, as they would call us? Yeah, they gouged us to the point where all of us, when we realized, oh, I can just order from Amazon now, fuck off.

3:38:28SpeakerYeah, and I'm not sure if it's a complete reflection of the illicit market, but it definitely does reflect it. But the one thing I know from knowing a few guys who still own shops down in Southern California, all their business comes from a few... Thank you so much for joining us.

3:39:13SpeakerThey're just buying stuff online because it's usually cheaper. But no, it has gone away. It really has. It's crazy, but they should, that should have been one of the first, you know, if this had been approached the right way, the proliferation of like the Green Coast, like 10,000 square foot warehouses happened right as 64 was fucking signed in, right? So it's like, how can you have like, like in Holland right away, you know, they restrict the growth, the growth supplies to having like one or two lights in the whole place because they said, oh no, if you have more than that, then you're supplying the illicit market.

3:39:52SpeakerYou're not a hobbyist, but we had this like massive like supply chain directly with like 10,000 square foot, you know, and then over time they all were just filled with Athena, which was pretty gross, which was like, wait, you guys used to have like 30 different nutrient companies. Now you've just got like walls of Athena and then all the other stuff like over in the corner. So clearly you were you're just there for the larger scale illicit grow.

3:40:20SpeakerBut yeah, that's another one of those jobs. Like how many jobs does this industry sustain and for why? And how many of those, when you start looking back and say, why do those bro shops even exist? I mean, I remember when you used to have to drive for like hours to go to the farm supply place because there's only like three places in the state that sold whatever ingredient you're trying to get.

3:40:40SpeakerAnd then all of a sudden someone said, whoa, people are driving hours for this shit. I can just open a shop here in LA and charge more for it. And, you know, the next thing you know, there's 30 shops in LA over the next 10 years, right? Those jobs were created out of thin air. Boom. You know, and then we find out that all the stuff that they were selling was kind of the same shit you can get from the farm supply, just in a different bottle or a slightly different formula.

3:41:03SpeakerAnd at a quarter of the price, at a quarter of the price, you know, so it's it's it's all I mean, it all comes down to prohibition to me. And like a lot of us who got into the industry were in it, you know, to to support ourselves, to support our families. It's not like we didn't like to get paid. But we definitely did it for a slightly different reason.

3:41:24SpeakerAnd we could have survived with a smaller, you know, caps on square footage and caps on production and try to maintain that. But that's, I mean, we're in the Amazon world where none of that, no, that's like socialism in the modern world to talk like that, to not let the free market just fucking roll over any mom and pop industry. So.

3:41:47BubblemanWell, even those mom and pop industries that were all grieving that are disappearing now, like back then they were like, man, the prices on that shit was so high. It was like we were all getting raped and kind of just happy about it. We're like, I'm just going to go to the grow store and buy a bunch of water, you know, that has been shipped across the country.

3:42:05BubblemanAnd I'm going to pay three times the price for these lights that you would if you were just buying them wholesale from the actual producer. And It was the same for everything, so I'm not trying to say I wasn't a part of it.

3:42:18Etienne FontanWe didn't talk to the producer or anybody like that. We were too terrified, right? We were all trying to be discreet. I remember I thought it was so fucking cool. I finally had all my shit. I went to a place in San Jose. I bought literally like 20 hundred gallon containers, which is for water things. And I'm paying in cash and I'm, you know, we're talking blah, blah, blah.

3:42:39Etienne FontanI'm talking regular farm stuff. And I thought I had my shit together and I pulled out my goddamn wallet. And it said, you know, it had the I grew hemp on it. And the guy's like, oh, that's a nice strong fiber. You got a wallet there. And I was like, oh.

3:42:56Etienne FontanI busted my own self with a fucking wallet. I mean, of all goddamn things, shit. You know, so, you know, as much as you try, you know. I remember in 89, I went because Operation Green Merchant had happened. I went to Ohio from West Virginia to Columbus to buy a light and parked a mile away from the fucking... You know, story, because I was afraid I was going to get a picture taken.

3:43:23Etienne FontanAnd then we drove around and all around, make sure we weren't followed. You know, this is just the paranoia is fucking real, people. And so we weren't thinking about large scale future and what was all possible with us. We're just trying to save our own asses. You know, trying to stay out of prison. Right.

3:43:40BubblemanI'll tell you, I remember those days, right? I was lucky over buying your equipment. I was lucky because Ron Hickey, who was my one of my first mentors, He had just done six years in prison in a federal penitentiary for cannabis. And when he got out, he decided, I'm going to open up a hydroponic store education center called Nature's Nutrition. He had a huge book area. He was always there.

3:44:05BubblemanAnd you'd walk in. I walked in there at 17 years old, dude, and I was like, Hey man, like I'm just trying to grow some tomatoes. And he's like, tomatoes? Come on, we're not growing tomatoes. I know exactly what you're growing. Let's talk about what you're growing. And this guy would just like put it all out there. And I'm talking in the Bible belt of Canada, bro.

3:44:20BubblemanLike you go to federal penitentiary if you get caught growing this shit. And he literally taught our entire city. He taught fucking motorcycle gangs how to do it. He taught anyone that would listen. He was screaming it from the mountaintops. And in fact- He did it so much. This is the guy that ended up in prison for another six years because while he was doing that, they said, why don't we send in this woman to pretend to have cancer and tell him that she needs to get cannabis?

3:44:53BubblemanAnd he ended up giving her four or five pounds over the course of a certain amount of time. And that got him five and a half years in prison. And when he went to do the prison time, Thank you for watching. See you next time.

3:45:25BubblemanDouble. And just had to kind of be like, oh, well, whatever. Yeah, I'm glad you got some yard time now, I guess. Like pretending to have cancer. To get this guy to sell or give them weed, which I almost guarantee you he gave it to her. I bet you he would not have charged her whatsoever. But that's who was my original mentor, Ron Hickey. This guy did not give a fuck.

3:45:51BubblemanHe put 2000 watt HPS lights in the front window of his fucking store and he blinded everyone that drove by that store. You could not not look at his store In the late 80s and the early 90s when those lights were blaring out of the front window there. So shout out to Ron Hickey and all the OGs for not giving a fuck. Thank you. That's where I grew up.

3:46:21Etienne FontanYou had to be cavalier, right? You know, that's the thing is that, you know, it's as we're sitting here looking at 2020 hindsight, right?

3:46:29Collin PalmerWe used to buy lights in other states and never in the same state, you know, like you, Marcus, I would go to the spot that was called Indoor Outdoor Gardener. In Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. And this guy, Peter, had his own soil blend that he did. And his wife and him, Helena, we used to wait until they were just about to close. And then he'd be like, all right, boys, what do you need?

3:46:56Collin PalmerAnd he would take us around. He'd be like, you need this and that. And then he would put it all in black trash bags for us. And we'd like piecemeal it out of there. And like, you know, three of us would go in different directions and then all meet up at a different spot. Because, yeah, you know, you had to be sneaky, man.

3:47:16Etienne FontanHey, everybody. I brought in Michael Krawitz because we were discussing earlier about CBD and descheduling and all that. And Michael is part of that history. So he would like to correct us and at least set us straight on some of that because it actually goes to the work that they were doing at the UN. So Michael Krawitz, welcome. And can you help correct our understanding?

3:47:43SpeakerYeah, by the time I'm done, I don't know how much it'll seem like a correction, but I do think there's a bit of the history that needs to be understood to have a better understanding of where, you know, what happened and how it happened. I have no idea what you were just talking about, and I apologize so much for coming in the middle. I just have to say, you know, coming in on a black bag story, I asked a friend of mine for a joint in Hawaii, and he said, oh, I've got some weed in my storage unit.

3:48:09SpeakerHe opened up the storage unit, it had a black hefty bag. And at that time, the Hawaiian weed, you know, this is before Operation Green Harvest. They had some phenomenal outdoor green weed before Green Artist. He had a hefty bag of just leftovers. They would take, you know, they'd trim their bud and whatever was left over, they just put out at the dump in a hefty bag and he would take one home for, you know, spare weed.

3:48:34SpeakerSo I had a, you know, 55 gallon trash bag of little ends of buds instead of the best of wine to roll my joint out of. So I just thought I'd share that story. But yeah. All right, so what happened? In a nutshell, you know bits and pieces. So you know about Epidiolex and... You know about the patients in the United States that pushed the FDA to do trials on a kind of an adaptation of a import license for under duress, you know, medical necessity, import license and drug testing, special drug testing of a product that was in testing already in the UK, Epidiolex.

3:49:24SpeakerAnd that resulted in FDA approval. And FDA made its own determination that, you know, Epidiolex should be, you know, certainly not seen as a drug of abuse. So they sent it over to the DEA. And the DEA came back before 2018, coming up to 2018. The DEA came back to the FDA and said, well, we agree with your findings. We have no evidentiary argument, except it's still considered by us to be a tincture or extract of cannabis.

3:50:03SpeakerAs per the treaty obligations, we can't get away from that. What that causes us to do as a DEA within our Controlled Substances Act, it calls on us to schedule it somewhere, basically. So they put it in Schedule 5. It had to be in a schedule because it was still seen as an extract and still under treaty control. And 2019, 2020, we had the wrap-up of the big process.

3:50:33SpeakerIt was a five-year process in Geneva with the World Health Organization, of which one whole year was dedicated to CBD. We had hearings. Our little team of activists brought in the hemp movement this time. Previously, in 2015, 16, and 18, we brought in the medical cannabis movement. And the WHO worked with us and actually tried to fix this. They put a note into the treaty, at least tried to.

3:51:01SpeakerThis is a very unprecedented thing. They have scheduling authority, but they sent back a note and they said to the treaty body, You know, if you if you wish, put this into the treaty as a clarifying note. And what did the note said? It said that CBD was shouldn't be a subject of a subject of control because it's not a subject of abuse. Basically, you can read the note.

3:51:23SpeakerIt's a matter of historical record of the note that they put forward. It's also a matter of historical record that the U.N. declined to put that into the treaty. They didn't do that. But they did remove cannabis from schedule four of the treaty. And it's very clear based on the actions of the DEA that that convinced them to go back to the drawing board on Epidiolex and relent on allowing it to be descheduled.

3:51:51SpeakerI make it a clarification on the lobbying by special interests because there was nothing to lobby for. I mean, at that moment, there was no rescheduling petition. There was nothing before the DEA to really particularly lobby for it. Now, there may have been lobbying by corporate interests behind the scenes that we didn't see at the international level, but that note didn't pass. I mean, if there was any clear focal point for corporate lobbying, it would have been on the note itself, which we didn't work on.

3:52:22SpeakerWe didn't really care much about Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

3:52:53SpeakerOne of our members of our team is a former member of the International Archaeology Control Board, and they clarified their position after that in 2023, telling all countries that they should do the same thing, that they shouldn't consider CBD, even if it's got a small amount of THC, which I thought was fascinating, because they left that to the discretion of the countries as to what would be a manageable amount of THC in the CBD and still be using for medicine, but not be controlled.

3:53:22SpeakerSo anyway, in the USA, we have all the complications from hemp and that raises whole other issues. But I think that that kind of sums up the history.

3:53:34BubblemanWell, thanks for sharing, brother. We appreciate you. I was trying to figure out if that was you in the chat earlier. I had asked, but then I had asked ATN as well, and he, I guess, didn't see the chat. I probably should have asked it in here instead of on Messenger on the phone, but always glad to keep the people straight. We're super, I mean, listen, for me, that was four hours.

3:53:54BubblemanI got to go take care of my wife. She's feeling a little under the weather because I brought home the plague and then gave it to her. So I think it's a little bit of my responsibility to make sure that I take care of her for a little bit today. I do want to thank our sponsors, Puffco and Bubble Bags and the Press Club for, you know, giving your support to Hash Church and the community here.

3:54:18BubblemanThank you for watching.

3:54:36BubblemanI have no idea how this is all going to play out. I do know that I'm in it for life and I'll just be enjoying cannabis the whole way through. Let's hope it becomes more and more and more and more and more accessible for everyone because I think that's what we all want in the end. I'm with Sam. I don't give a fuck who profits. Thank you for watching.

3:55:19BubblemanThat feels like something, man. 52 episodes. A lot happens in a year. You really figure it out when you, well, when you have this Sunday to join. And it's so important that you take the Sabbath off and join and dialogue in hash dialogue with your brothers and sisters. And that's what we do here on Hash Church. We're here every Sunday and we're glad that you show up for us as well.

3:55:40BubblemanIt was really nice to have Michael show up at the end. It was really nice to have Mojave and Fletch on today. And of course, all the regulars, we appreciate you. Let's do it again next Sunday. May the full melt bless your bowl sooner than later. Peace out, everybody.