Exploring Powdery Mildew and Fungal Evolution

0:00BubblemanAsh Church Season 12, Episode 18. Yeah, we're pumping them along here. Thanks for everyone for showing up today as you as you do on the regular. I appreciate that. I'm going to set up a quick little shout out to our sponsors because what would we be?

0:20SpeakerWhat would we be without our sponsors?

0:24BubblemanAll right.

0:30BubblemanAll right, we're just going to... I have nine. Oh, here we go. Here we go. So we'll just shut that and we'll shut that. Okay, that's right. So I think I shut that off. Yeah, I had a bunch of... No, I did not. This is crazy. I got to find the YouTube. Ah, there's the other one.

0:55SpeakerHiding behind. See you, YouTube. I see you. Shut you down. Bye-bye.

1:01BubblemanAll right. Sorry, that was hard to listen to myself. We got a cool show for you today. I had zero plans and a bunch of stuff kind of fell together. So we'll see how that goes. First and foremost, I want to shout out my sponsors for being such awesome sponsors. Shout out to the Press Club. We'll start with these guys because, well, they're fucking awesome. You can elevate your solventless game at Hash Church with the Press Club's premium lineup of raw extraction essentials.

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5:45BubblemanSo there we go. Shouted out the sponsors. Perfect time for Matthew the Sync Angel to pop to chat.

5:54SpeakerHow you doing today, Matthew?

5:57BubblemanOh, he's not quite there. You're doing well. Oh, you're quick. You're quick. I asked you a question. You were muted and you had your camera off and you're like, oh, shit. Click, click. Nice to see you, buddy.

6:06SpeakerI was listening to your video, but I had paused it already, so it gave me a bit of a delay.

6:12BubblemanOh, okay, yeah. I also, when I start the video, there's a delay, and then I start hearing myself talk. So today, I literally had to find the hidden YouTube page that was open with the mic unmuted with my own voice, you know, on a five-second delay coming through my ears, so... Yeah, there's that.

6:31SpeakerIt's very, very disrupting. No, good to see you as well. What was the question? How am I doing?

6:37BubblemanYeah, yeah, just how you're doing. So Matthew and I are in a science group today that was set up. I believe my friend Stefan set that up. So I met Stefan in Switzerland back in 2001 or two and had an amazing adventure with him. And it wasn't until I met Ruben Valenveras over in Barcelona just a couple of years ago now At the Spanibus, the last Spanibus that was ever going to be in Barcelona, unfortunately.

7:09BubblemanAnd so he brought me into that group. And then I realized it was Stefan and all these other great people. So really cool to see you in that group. That's a solid group of science-based miscreants.

7:22SpeakerYeah, I've come to find that to be the case. It's awesome.

7:26BubblemanIt's nice to have these conversations going, you know, I don't click on as many of the links, but when I see people like you in there pumping and actually posting something that's not just, you know, necessarily about sharing a link, which I think is a great way to open conversation. But I also like the idea of hearing people share specific because Stefan is the link master. I think we could agree.

7:50BubblemanYes, I didn't even know you could find that many links on cannabis on a daily basis. Insane.

7:57SpeakerI mean, it used to be that we would say we have no one's talking about it. So I guess I guess don't don't complain about a full plate. Right. But at the same time, yeah, I do like to hear people's impressions about what it is that they find interesting about something. Certainly. Absolutely. So how have you been? It's been a while since last we spoke. I've been all right.

8:18SpeakerThe reason why I know Stefan is because one of the things I did recently was I went to EU and I traveled all up and down The Romania in Brasov and Sibiu and Bucharest and all these other places. And I checked out the mountains and Dracula's castle and big old salt mine and places like this. Very interesting. I met some people, even competed in a small poker tournament in Bucharest and didn't win, of course.

8:55SpeakerAnd then I went and I saw in Eindhoven, Netherlands, I went to the Nexo Acceleration Day, which is where I met Stefan. And yeah, so I was seeing the no veg or extremely low veg plants, however those are articulated, and that whole thing. Did you go meet Dom? I did meet, I've known Dominique, yeah.

9:20BubblemanYeah, great. But that's where you were at, Dom's place?

9:24SpeakerYes, I was at his experimental greenhouse location where he decided to have the event, which is pretty cool.

9:30BubblemanYeah, no, that's great. That is definitely a place that I'll be checking out in the in the future years for sure. He put the invite out to me last time I saw him. And I love what those guys are doing. I love the idea of having these very specific sort of You know, R&D cannabis rooms for so many different things from feed validations to spectrums to, you know, all of it, like just IPM.

9:57BubblemanThere's so much important work that needs to be done. And I love the idea of having a, you know, a place or places like that in the future that are able to offer that to companies, because I don't really think some cannabis companies understand like The level of value that that can offer you, you know, where you're just like, you know, you're doing the white papers, you're doing the scientific work before you decide to, you know, toss $10 million in and build this giant facility.

10:25SpeakerYeah, absolutely. Or like, you know, like the bugbear for me is like resistance and like how you quantify that in plants, which we talked a lot about, I think last time. But yeah, I just feel like, It's for one, we don't have all the information anyways. It's nascent. But also, yeah, man, if you're going to spend like a million dollars on seeds or cuttings or whatever, you know, to get your production.

10:51SpeakerIf someone says that they're resistant to something and they're not, there's not even recourse for you. You just lose potentially, or you're just at, or if you're relying on it more than other factors, then that can be a big deal for people. And also for the home grower too, you know, I see people, they might feel like the plants they got were resistant to the reclaim. So some way, and then they think, oh, it's my fault.

11:15SpeakerI did bad when it was maybe the plants instead. So I don't like that either. Yeah, absolutely.

11:21BubblemanYou know, there's all sorts of different ways that you can help growers, obviously being an IPM and a bug specialist. Have you ever leaned into the idea of kind of find helping, like who would know better than the bug guy, which All of ours are the most resistant to bugs. And, you know, Skunk Man, Sam, and I'm having a brain fart right now, but there's another word.

11:48BubblemanIt's not just about resistance, right?

11:53SpeakerThere's a there's a there's like in what context, you know, like the context that we're like tolerance.

11:57BubblemanYeah, like tolerance, like there's resistance. And then but it's not tolerance. There was another word that he brought up one day that was like, look, there's two ways of looking at IPM. Adam Dizzle, Nick, Skully Vibes, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm,

12:29BubblemanSo, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

12:55BubblemanYeah, you know, I saw this plant and it just didn't seem to be affected in any way by such and such. Do you kind of are you starting to build that repertoire in your your background?

13:06SpeakerYeah, a little bit. It's because like in because I worked on other crops, too. So in that case, definitely in cannabis, there's a lot to be unpacked still, I feel like. And You know, for another thing, like a big part of like resistance standards or susceptibility or tolerance, however we sort of enunciate that, however we define these terms, like, you know, a lot of these are always going to have some sort of resistance, sorry, limitation, usually.

13:36SpeakerSometimes you even have trade-offs, right? So like in the cannabis space, you wouldn't necessarily want a plant that's resistant if it meant that it doesn't smell the way that you want it to, doesn't grow the way that you want it to. So a big part of it is pyramiding different kinds of resistance traits that are going to be useful, but then also understanding where those limitations are.

13:57SpeakerSo then the other things that you can do besides sweet genetics is to sort of increase that advantage and support it. So like maybe you have a plant that has a very special resistance gene Like the like the well, there's examples where like plants will lose a gene like the MLO genes in cannabis and many other plants. And when they lose some of those genes, two things happen.

14:24SpeakerOne, powdery mildew cannot infect the plant under most circumstances. Because it lacks, the plant lacks a response that's a predictable, reliable response to the movement of pressure on the plant cell that allows it to then like enter in and not have a problem. On the other hand, mycorrhizae and other beneficial fungi and bacteria can't interact and communicate with the plant either. So for scientists knew this for a long time and they were like, well, why didn't these genes, you know, why didn't they get basically eked out?

15:01SpeakerBecause, you know, they give susceptibility to powdery mildew and perhaps some other fungi too. The reason is because being able to beneficially mutualistically interact with those fungi, those bacteria that are beneficial outstripped the susceptibility to powdery mildew. So like in a natural context, it's very complicated It's really hard to be simple. And people, I think, oversimplify this interaction quite a bit. There's also, of course, microbes that also stimulate the immune system and things like that.

15:32SpeakerSo it's like you give the plant lots of good nutrition, but if it doesn't have the weapons, it doesn't really matter. Does that make sense? So there's all these different factors you have to consider.

15:44BubblemanWell, it just reminds me of Terrence McKenna. How come the deeper in you go, the bigger it gets? And I think of the three-dimensional model. It must have been AI. I don't know if you guys saw it recently. You've seen the picture of the cell, and it's just like all these little dots everywhere and squigglies. Well, they created like a three-dimensional version of it moving, of a cell moving.

16:07BubblemanAnd I... I stared at it for about 30 minutes the other day. It absolutely blew my mind. It was the most psychedelic thing I've ever seen. And then it realized like, oh yeah, like everything is more complicated than we have any understanding of. And I'm Thank you so much for joining us.

16:47SpeakerJust this morning, just this morning I was reading a report that came out maybe a day ago where this research group proposed that ribosomes, which are the things that make the proteins in your cells, are maybe also an ancient symbiosis, like endosymbiosis, like with mitochondria in eukaryotes, that perhaps this is also the case for ribosomes, which is also interesting to think about too. I didn't read through all of it, so I can't really comment, and I'm not an evolutionary developmental biologist or any of that stuff, but it's fascinating stuff.

17:24SpeakerI like to read about this kind of thing, and on a basic level, we as growers, I think that that kind of deep esoterica might seem like it's not relevant, but it's actually very relevant. In this deep dive powdery military presentation I'm working on, For my YouTube channel, a little video essay about powdery mildew and where it comes from and how it works, I do go into its evolution a little bit to show that it's actually something that came from kind of beneficial soil fungi.

17:58SpeakerAnd then it used those traits that we always, you know, say are really great, really amazing, allow the plants to have a good interaction, get nutrients. They then turn those to parasitism and become really successful. So don't be afraid or don't be surprised when maybe it's a little more difficult to deal with them. You know what I'm saying? Have a little respect.

18:19BubblemanYeah, have a little respect is right. That's absolutely insane. The double edged sword, right? It's like, oh, we're going to use all this to slice and dice. And then they flip the sword. It's like, oh, shit. Now we're over here cutting it all up. That didn't work in our favor quite as much as it did over here. That is interesting. Well, I look forward to seeing that powdery mildew presentation.

18:42BubblemanI'm always I'm always interested to, you know, the first time I photographed powdery mildew, I was just in shock because I was like, OK, that's what powdery mildew looks like. Like, what the hell? Of course, I have to share it because whenever I talk about it, this was the first image I ever photographed. It was 2008. It's a little blurry, but it gives you an idea. It lets you see how I'm so excited to be here today.

19:07BubblemanI'm so excited to be here today. I'm so excited to be here today.

19:32SpeakerI think like that colony is making all these spores and they're moving around and, you know, you know, one of the, well, I'll tell you this, one myth about powdery mildew that's often talked about, and even myself, you know, used to say this as well, is that they, that they, that relative humidity or airflow will solve the problem for you, low relative humidity, but Thank you for joining us.

20:18SpeakerAllow it, if that's possible, I'll send a request here. I do have an example of what the ancestor or like the closest relative of powdery mildews look like for a comparison.

20:33BubblemanAll right. I feel like this could be like hilarious. Like you could just put up a picture of a person you don't like and it could be like a kind of comedy skit. But all right. All right. I'm trusting you, Matthew.

20:42SpeakerI like to make a bit. That's true. You are right. That's a good idea for later.

20:47BubblemanYeah, this is one of the ancestors of Powdery Mildew. And then, you know, someone you don't like. This is the guy responsible for all of it. Yeah, David Spade's been doing it. Oh, shit. Helio Talley's overview.

21:01SpeakerYeah, so helotiales is the overarching order that powdery mildews belong to. A lot of the fungi look like this, or this, or this, you know, they've got these cups, they got these webbed mycelium, and they break down wood, basically. And so they turn that into How do we build do infecting living tissue? So they made this jump from dead material to trees like oaks and beach and birch, like 70 million, 100 million years ago.

21:39SpeakerAnd then when daisies and herbaceous plants came in around 70 million years ago, 50 million years ago, they jumped. And then that they were gangbusters because they went from a host that lives a long time And doesn't grow very much, very fast to a host that's growing, that's germinating, growing and dying within a year. So evolution is more of a big deal. The plants can also evolve countermeasures quicker.

22:11SpeakerSo the powdery mildew had to adapt. And that's why we deal with such a odious powdery mildew that can adapt so much.

22:18BubblemanThe cups remind me of the bird's nest fungus.

22:22SpeakerYes, very similar, isn't it?

22:23BubblemanI wonder if there's a connectivity there in between like the fact that they're growing in almost the same way, except the bird's nest aren't furry like that. They don't have that extra.

22:34SpeakerYeah. Yeah, I think that, well, the cup, that cup shape I think is like pretty ancient. I think so too. A lot of different, I don't know if it's a... Thank you for watching.

23:03SpeakerThey did go rogue, yes.

23:06BubblemanYou know, I've always been amazed and I probably mentioned it maybe before when you were on the show, but I remember reading Paul Stamets talking about how mushrooms can literally be just growing near one another and like pull expressions from one another, like literally pull genetic expressions that they don't have without any evolution whatsoever. They just somehow get exposed to it in their morphogenetic resonance. I don't know what pathway So we're going to take a look at some of the things that we're going to talk about today.

23:53BubblemanIf the hyphae and the mycelium is interacting under the soil and communicating, I have no idea what it is, but it intrigues me. And it truly just lets me know that, you know, if anything on this planet is alien, it's the fungi.

24:13SpeakerYeah, man, it's crazy. I know there's like bacteria and stuff that can take what's called eDNA or environmental DNA. And then integrate that into their own genome. And that's how, like, that's why biofilms can be so problematic because you can get these maybe closely related or sometimes distantly related microbes and they kind of, they can start to exude things and then absorb those and then, yeah, utilize those things.

24:42SpeakerSo it's really crazy with like antibiotic resistance. Those resistant bacteria get into like the ocean And then they give those segments of DNA to other bacteria. And that's a real thing that's already happened.

24:58BubblemanYeah, it's unbelievable. This science, it's like this to me is the most exciting kind of science where you're just like figuring out pathways and mechanisms that these things utilize. And really, as we're learning, because we don't know how old they are, how long they are, you could start studying something tomorrow that basically changed later in the afternoon, not like a thousand years or a million years. There's no idea on the timestamp on some of these things because it's so fluid with mycelium and fungi and bacteria.

25:32SpeakerPatrick Miller does it intra seasonally. You can get adaptations and specializations to various crops and even cultivars and they can break resistances and resistant genes. Their effect within like one season has been shown in other crops. That's why, you know, and the reason for this, if you want to go into why that's crazy, is that to get to where they were. Powdery mildews lost a bunch of genes that regulate their genome.

26:00SpeakerAnd to oversimplify it, to make it an interesting story, they've got like 60% of all the genes in their body are for manipulating the plants. And when those barriers went away, they basically just started mutating all the time, moving around on the genome. And for us, that would kill us. But for them, it made it so that when they make like millions of spores, those genes that are a lemon, Thank you so much for joining us.

26:53SpeakerWe have a wide host species type species that we deal with.

26:57BubblemanWell, think of how many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of small little laboratories, indoor growers have been growing powdery mildew and breeding powdery mildew and teaching it resistance. And instead of just, you know, I guess learning and I've always been like, oh, you just need to set off a nuclear bomb in there and you'll be fine. Just, you know, bomb the whole thing. I mean, generally we would reserve that for the for the two spotted spider mites there.

27:28BubblemanBut powdery mildew, I saw wreak havoc on so many grower friends of mine. And there's always so, oh, you just use the 8.3. Oh, you just do this. You just do that. There's always people that have sort of figured little things out that work for them. But with powdery mildew, my worry is much like drying hash, that the solution for drying hash in Colorado is not the solution for drying hash in Oregon.

27:52BubblemanAnd I'm guessing bugs are no different.

27:56SpeakerYes, I feel this is the truth. I feel like this is the case for a lot of people. And so it's really hard to be... Thank you for watching.

28:25SpeakerYou know, it's all about like what you have access to. When I work with people in different countries, that's a big one too. It's like, you can't just say, oh, get this product. Like, you know, we can't get this here or, or there might be a supply issue or you might need to have alternatives or that kind of a thing too. So there's all the, you know, you can't cultivate yourself out of like extrinsic, extraneous factors that are overwhelming and having a ton of powdery mildew in your area.

28:52SpeakerThat's all mutating all around. That kind of stuff might be, The case for you, for example, and you can't control that you have an ag plot of land right next to you with the host species rapidly changing. For sure. Well said. Can you guys hear me?

29:12BubblemanWe can hear you. You sound perfect.

29:14SpeakerIs there no echo?

29:15BubblemanI had to mute you earlier because there was an echo.

29:18SpeakerYeah, exactly. Ah, I got the headphones on. That works all the time, right?

29:21BubblemanYou know what? I'm the same boat, Mark. I just wear the headphones now. It's not the funnest thing to do for four hours at a time, but Holy, look at these regulars just popping in like it's Sunday at 9 a.m. or something.

29:34SpeakerHey, Matt, good to see you again. Good to always hear you. Likewise. Yeah, reminiscent of a couple conversations we've had. Yeah. And I don't know if you knew this, but in a former life when I was working at a chemical company, we were working on wood preservatives. And a big thing about a wood preservative, and we're not talking about Viagra people, get your mind out of the gutter here.

30:04SpeakerSo that green jungle juice that they squeeze into lumber so you could use it for picnic tables and boat docks. The biggest, well, one of the issues is termites, but another big issue is fungi. And I think like wood, if you think about it, well, it grows on trees, right? So many like one lines here, right? It's like, so it grows on trees and think about it.

30:32SpeakerIf there was no wood decay fungi, all the, all the forests, Thank you for joining us.

31:02SpeakerAnd the spores are there. Yeah, they're going to take advantage of it. And, you know, God damn, you know, I mean, Stan says it all the time. They have their own fucking kingdom, right? I mean, it's like, They're as diverse as like the animal kingdom. You know, you could have what little toads. You could have big elephants. You could have polar bears and dogs and us. And right.

31:26SpeakerI mean, fungi are just as it's a standalone kingdom.

31:30BubblemanThere's no. Yeah, it is. And it's a standalone kingdom. And the reason that is, is because. It's the only, there's the only thing we've ever found in space, still living, trapped in cosmic radiation pressure was spores. So spores can travel space and broccoli can't and frogs can't and nothing else can. But fucking spores can.

31:54SpeakerContinue, please. Tardigrades can. There you go. And probably roaches too, right? They're working on it. What we learned by like, so we were particularly, Matthew, looking at like Basidiomyces and Trimates versicolor, I think is another one. Oh, the turkey tails. Yeah, turkey tails, two kinds of fungi attack wood. So if you just put like untreated lumber on, Thank you for watching.

32:49SpeakerThank you for joining us.

33:08SpeakerIn the ground, it's gone like a year later, either from termite pressure or from fungi. And we would basically send teams down to the jungle and they'd pull up these stakes. They were like paint stirrers like this. I got a wook on a paint stirrer in case somebody starts acting wook-like. Yeah, we can take them on. So yeah, we would put like paint stirrers, treat them with chemical, put them in the ground.

33:35SpeakerAnd then go back like, you know, like six months at a time, pull them up and look to see is the wood rotting or whatnot. But what we found out, which was super interesting, is that there's a symbiotic relationship between pseudomonad type bacteria that actually initially infest the wood. And these bacteria are super primitive in that they Exude cellulases which start chopping up the cellulose and then that rings the dinner bell for the fungi that come in after, you know.

34:08SpeakerAnd yeah, so there's this symbiotic relationship and probably a chemical communication, chemical ecology network that they somehow communicate with each other because what we found is that if we put the right chemicals in the wood, we could knock out the bacteria and guess what, the fungi can't come in. Also the same thing with termites which I thought was super interesting is that termites have to this is really interesting termites rely on a bacteria in their gut to re to to hydrolyze cellulose so they chew cellulose right and they're chewing wood right but they need this bacteria in the gut so if you target the bacteria in the gut You could basically knock out the termite colony, right?

34:57SpeakerSo yeah, there's all kinds of ways of approaching these things, but it's interesting perhaps in cannabis, again, that there's some sort of symbiotic relationship between the good, Microbes, good bacteria or good, you know, healthy components of a living soil that can basically stave off not only fungal, but also insect pressure, right? I mean, isn't the chemistry that goes on in the rhizosphere, so to speak, also controlling chemical cues that insects basically act on and can either draw Insects to a plant or basically, you know, repel them from plants as well?

35:45SpeakerYeah, it is true. It's also true that there are pathogens that lots of pathogens, including powdery mildew and some of these necrotrophs like fusarium and other ones that they basically they co-opt microbes that we would normally consider beneficial. So again, like, you know, it's like I encounter a lot of, you know, different opinions about pests and what makes sense or doesn't make sense for a particular, you know, outlook.

36:19SpeakerLike, do you want to, if you add microbes, you won't have pathogens. Or if you have a mulch layer, you won't get, you know, powdery mildew or certain other, you know, negative microbes like pathogens because You know, it benefits the nutrient uptake or if it benefits the plants like a rhizosphere in some way that helps the good guys. But the good guys can also be the bad guys sometimes.

36:42SpeakerThere's a lot of contextual things that happen. And certainly like in the case of powdery mildews, they used to be good guys, kind of. And then they, you know, through association, lots of symbioses, mutualists, parasites, Those can switch too. You know, you get parasites that become more mutualistic with their host sometimes over long and short evolutionary time periods. So all of that stuff is in play. And I think that like, yeah, if you haven't, if you really, you know, if you oversimplify the biology, even if you're someone who's a very big fan of like implementing biology, you can still make yourself vulnerable to issues.

37:25SpeakerBut certainly like you can't affect one system without somehow affecting the other. So the time course of evolution, especially with fungi, have learned how to take advantage of available food sources, energy sources. You know, you think about like even just evolution in general. I mean, the organizms that live down on those vents in the ocean that is spewing out hydrogen sulfide, right? Which is rotten egg, right?

38:00SpeakerAnd they figured out, oh, there's sulfur here. Let's see, what can we do? Like, how can we somehow, you know, use this as a food source? So if there's a food source on planet Earth, there's a fungi or a whole zoo of fungi that have figured out how to use it as a productive food source. Or energy. Well, for powdery mildews, as they became, and we don't have all the information about all the graduations and all that sort of stuff, but By and large, you know, as these, as pattern mildews became what they were, what they are now today, they lost a bunch of genes that regulated their genome, but also they lost genes that were related to taking up and processing metabolites and organic matter that they had in their previous lifestyle.

38:50SpeakerNo longer became useful or helpful. There are bacteria and aphids that are the same way. They were a free living E. coli and then they became defense bacteria for them or other sorts of really important nutrient synthesizers or amino acid synthesizers for the host. Anyways, and their genome got broken down in aphids and now they're like a symbiont. So in powdery mildews, They lost the ability to assimilate certain kinds of phosphorus sources outside of living plant tissue phosphorus sources, sulfur sources and other sorts of nutrients and breaking those down.

39:27SpeakerThey even lost some because they still need cellulase and other ones to break down cellulose, but they lost other cellulase type enzymes that break down other woody material because they don't use it. They're mostly on leaves, sometimes on stem material, sometimes on It depends a lot on the species we're talking about here. But in like the ones that most people deal with on like herbaceous vegetable crops, you know, they do, they can also be on the flower too of certain plants or on the fruits as well.

39:57SpeakerSo they evolved and they honed to only really use because the genes that were lost didn't really matter, right? So now they are very much honed to manipulating the plant. And getting their own resources to the detriment of those other lifestyle genes that were useful in the past. But there's a risk to this. I think you're familiar, Mark, with Muller's Ratchet. I'm not, no. The idea that basically as you tack on mutations or if you become more mutable, if your genome becomes more prone to these mutations and stuff, Thank you so much for joining us.

40:58SpeakerThere's like a idea that as this process continues, you get like what happens in aphids where the bacteria that used to be a type of E. coli became, you know, almost like integrated into the genome. of the aphid or at least it's passed on vertically and it lost all the genes that were important for even synthesizing nutrients for itself some of them so it's kind of incredible like there's no free lunch in physics which i think is the point you were making and i think it's eloquently put yeah no free lunch in physics that's good yeah yeah but that's true for plant defense too you know like um You know, there's weaknesses that the pests have, there's weaknesses that the plants have, and they've learned to exploit them.

41:44SpeakerSo, you know, we shouldn't be surprised that there's like, you know, three-handed handshakes and things like this that go a little bit indirect that we also have to consider. And those interactions, you're right, could be more efficient than, you know, going at it headlong. If you only have to get rid of the bacteria, you don't have to spray like a noxious insecticide, right? For powdery mildew, maybe we can apply something That all sulfur is an example, but you can't use in all cases.

42:10SpeakerBut like, you know, it's not probably not going to resist wettable sulfur anytime soon. At the same time, you know, there's like viruses, there's mycoviruses that naturally exist on the planet and apparently are very common, according to some studies. And they make powdery mildews hypovirulent. And it makes them unable to colonize the plant surface or do it very, very poorly. Well, and and you got to wonder, I mean, the other the other factor that that makes me think about what you're talking about is then you throw humans into the equation, right?

42:48SpeakerYes. Yeah, exactly. It's like between like, you know, cross contaminant. We could be on one continent. And a day later be on a completely different continent, right? And be cross-contaminating, you know, biomes, you know, by a jet plane, right? You know, and a perfect example of this that you'll love too is the Formosan termite is actually not native to North America and actually... Yeah, check this out, ATN.

43:21SpeakerSo when they brought surplus equipment back from the Southern Pacific after World War II, they brought a lot of equipment that was crated up in wood back to Air Force bases and Navy bases along the Southern United States. And they didn't realize, but there were Formosan termites that had infested those crates. And that's what brought the Formosan termite to say, Louisiana. And, you know, like in and around, you know, the French Quarter and in and around New Orleans, they had a huge Formosan tournament.

44:00SpeakerAnd Formosans are, man, they will eat through concrete to get the wood. They are just, and they fly, so they'll get up into your soffits and up into the, you know, the framing of your wood. Uniquely, they eat dead and living wood, which is not usually the case, right? That's what makes them so like onerous. That's a big part of it at least. Yeah, so like the white subterranean termite that you usually see like down south, as long as you have the right building envelope, you know, around where your wood is, like they have these termite shields and then there's usually like baits that they put in and around the structures of homes to actually draw the termites in, you know, you could kind of keep your home's termite free.

44:48SpeakerBut those Formosans, yeah, were, again, I get the point of the discussion was Brought to this continent by, you know, by humans. That's what we do.

44:58BubblemanWe are the carriers. That's what we do. We're the sporulators.

45:01SpeakerExactly. And you can do everything right. Like what gets me is that you can do, like you can like grow like if in this like way that you think is maybe superior or like with like really good rotations or like organically or regeneratively or in all these different contexts and like. You know, that's really good for making sure that you are not yourself like kind of spreading the pests or like you have this like really competent defense that might not, you know, you know, help along their selection pressures as much as possible.

45:32SpeakerAnd on the other hand, you can have with, you know, what I often say in my presentations, you know, you've got the US has it somewhat too, but Brazil, China and India are three really big agricultural meccas that, you You know, they spray so much of these compounds that other places say we shouldn't use and that we have laws against using. But those chemicals are like a giant gym for those bugs, those pests.

45:59SpeakerThey get really good at what they do. And then they come over here and then us who were playing the right game, doing the right thing, wherever that might be on the earth. Well, now you've got, you know, the plant crusher 9000 and those plant defenses that, you know, use those chemicals, those proteins that the plant makes. Those things are, you know, the same resistance genes that work against like DDT in the case of like bud worms are the same ones that are detoxifying these natural compounds, too.

46:31SpeakerSo it's not like they're different classes necessarily. You know, they do the same thing and there's cross resistance now. Now the pest comes and is able to take care of the plant no problem. So it's like communally, globally, we kind of all have to be on the same page. And if we're not or we outsource it, it's going to come back to us. You can't outrun it that way.

46:53SpeakerAnd some governments have also thought, well, it's okay as long as they do it over there, as long as they do the production over there. But that's not true. Things move around quicker than they did when the continents were together. It's crazy, to your point.

47:06Collin PalmerYeah, I think what I'm hearing here is, and it's good to be here with you all. My time's going to be short for a little bit, but I'll be back. I hear the systems in which we all use, right? Let's just use the word system, because these are systems, right? And these systems around the world are slightly different from one another. And I've had to adapt. I learned early...

47:29Collin PalmerBroadbites were like hell and high water for me. I had to learn a lot to disrupt their cycle, right? That alone taught me a tremendous amount. Like, I mean, this is years, I mean, of learning, you know what I mean? And I still consider that a long going thing, you know, and I'm still like, keep one eye open thinking about it, about the grow, you know, um, You know, and then, for instance, you know, you were talking about powder mility and botrytis.

47:58Collin PalmerLike, we use QST 713. We have to. I mean, we're a regulated business. Like, we can't, you know, cannot use these things. And those that don't know what that is, that's an OMIR listed biological fungicide, fungicidal bacteria, bacillus subtilis strain. So, it's... You know, these are things that we have to build systems for because we don't know. And that's, again, why passing clones around is really dangerous, you know, because you're you just don't know.

48:33Collin PalmerI tend to get things tested for eggs at medicinal genomics because even when you think something's clean, you don't know, you know, like you could really just you don't know because you've used a system. That's worked before. Sometimes these things have flaws or you miss something or they had a, the whatever you're fighting had a hatching a day earlier or a day later. Do you know what I mean?

49:00Collin PalmerThere's something that goes along with this that breaks that system that you're used to. It's frightening. So those that are out there doing this at scale, you know what I'm talking about. So, you know, and even down to a 10 grower, like, You know, I encourage you guys to really develop a system for yourself, whether it's sachets or, you know, whatever it might be, building a relationship with that.

49:26Collin PalmerBut I think, you know, everything that I'm hearing from you, Matthew, is really amazing because it's the truth, you know, across the board, you know, and we all have to kind of learn together because there's so much, you know, and it's always evolving.

49:44SpeakerI don't know all the information either, right? But it is always involving. So encouraging that like scholarly attitude, I think is really important. Because also, you know, we didn't always do it very well in the past. But I think more than ever, I mean, certainly things are more complicated than ever. But also, I think the ability to simplify it has become more common. So it's a little bit more, a lot of information is more accessible, at least a little bit.

50:09SpeakerAnd I see it when I talk to people or go to events and people are like, you know, people are coming to me, you know, oh, I read about this thing about like, you know, aphid evolution or how the physiology works or whatever. And that's really great because like, yeah, I think that it gives you informed decisions. It makes you, it gives you the power to like look at a product even and And it's scale.

50:58Collin PalmerThere's better products today than we ever had access to. Like, Varanate is another amazing set of tools, you know, I recommend for people out there. It's great for soft body, you know, IPM because it's not an oil. It's, you know, it's great. So, yeah, there's a lot to share with one another to, as I say, grow better resin and grow healthier environments for people to be in while they do it.

51:28Collin PalmerBecause it's very, you know, that's the other side of it is, is do we really want to be around this? In a room, you know, even sulfur, like I think sulfur is a wonder child, right? But I think it can be caustic. It can be really, you know, get into your nose and air pathways.

51:47BubblemanI hate sulfur. I just I don't. People are like, I only spray it in veg. I'm like, have you microscopically photographed your plants in veg and noticed all the trichomes on the leaf surfaces? No, no, I didn't realize that. I didn't think that the plant produced trichomes when it was so small. I'm like, it actually produces trichomes as a seedling. Seedlings have trichomes on the epicotyl. That's true.

52:14BubblemanIt's very true. I photographed it. That's how I learned. There was no pictures on the internet. I had to take these pictures myself. And when I did, it fucking blew my mind. It was as simple as like... One of the reasons I love macro photography is because it can open your mind in a way that maybe, you know, someone like you or Jeff Lowenfels or someone explaining it on a level, it just goes right over their head.

52:39BubblemanBut then you show them the picture and you're like, oh, great.

52:42SpeakerThat's what it looks like.

52:44BubblemanIt's like, yeah, there's this sort of, I felt with macro photography, especially for cannabis, the more I took pictures that had never really been posted on mass in public. You could find some university photographs of an electron scan microscope, you know, from the 90s, you know, Joep de Maas from Holland had that. There was... A couple of guys doing the photography, Jason King kind of came around, but there was no real, like for me, I learned most of my, in my macro world.

53:14BubblemanAnd, and, you know, funny enough, Matthew, how I learned how to photograph cannabis is very much the opposite of how much the young, younger generation is learning today. They buy stacking units, they buy rail systems where the camera can move a millimeter at a time. They have a button where they're moving everything. And nothing against that. Like I was talking to Zoom Gardens and Thank you for watching.

53:46BubblemanWell, the program, well, I always, I did the opposite. I took single shots. All of my macro photographs that you'll see online are single shots. And how I learned how to manipulate and control my depth of field. And more importantly, how I learned to not go into gardens and say, well, could you just cut that bud off? And you could just cut that bud off and cut that.

54:05BubblemanI shot in rooms where the plants were still alive on the stock. And I shot in rooms where I'd feel bad if I had to ask them to turn the fan off. Thank you for watching.

54:36BubblemanJust like power lines, right? Big trees that have been stripped down, but they were actually just an entrance to our beach. And I would go there and I'd put my camera on that and I'd see these little like weevils and I don't even know the names of them. These fat little body, they got the antennas. Thank you for joining us.

55:11BubblemanThank you for watching.

55:28BubblemanBugs were a huge part of how I learned how to take macro photographs by holding the camera in my hand and the whole motion of just following it. It's this tiny little bug. Those were some of my funnest photography days by myself. People would walk by and go, what are you doing? I have this lens. It's like this long. I'm holding it right up against the tree.

55:53BubblemanIt's like a millimeter away from the tree. And then you show the person the picture and they're like, that's what's on the tree? They're just like... Once you start macro photographing bugs, you immediately learn where Hollywood came up with all of its aliens, all of its monsters, all of its, you know, the faces that open up, the jowls that have multiple, the predator, all of that comes from like praying mantis and different bugs that are very specifically...

56:24BubblemanFucking terrifying, to be honest, to see under a very, very... Yeah, if they were our size, yeah, no, for sure. Oh, dude, forget about it, no, forget about it. Forget about it, yeah, we would not be dominant. If they were 60 pounds, dude, if they had 60 pound praying mantises, we'd all be dead.

56:37SpeakerYeah, it'd be really bad. I think it'd be really terrible.

56:40BubblemanIt'd be really bad.

56:41SpeakerYeah, or Jumping Spiders, you know, that would be terrible. That'd be worse than a tiger.

56:45BubblemanThose are my friends. I will be honest. The Salicite Jumping Spider is probably my favorite insect. They have personality. They have warmth. They have attention and awareness that other bugs that I photograph don't. I swear to God recognizes when I smile.

57:21BubblemanLike the way they turn their heads and the little motion of their bodies. Some of my favorite pictures have been jumping spiders. In fact, one of my favorite photos I ever took in my life, I remember I had one, we were playing, he was walking around and I was like, oh, I should put him on like a flower or something and take a picture of him. So I put him on a, oh, that's not the one.

57:49BubblemanI put him on...

57:53BubblemanI'm very curious to hear it and see it. Yeah, here we go. I'm just getting into my Flickr account now, so I should be able to do this.

58:09SpeakerI saw this like color wash across you. I was like, oh, it's going to be a bright photo.

58:14BubblemanYeah, it's a really cool photo in the sense that I've taken better photos since, but this one was pretty cool in the sense that... Oh, I like this a lot. Just this fun little attention. And sorry, this is actually not a solicite. This is a different type. But definitely from that family. These are all macro photographs I took that day. And then here, if you look up close into his eyes, above his mustache, you can see the flower petals of the dandelion refracting in the image inside his eyes.

58:47BubblemanSo that was a cool one. And then I can never show these without showing. My son grabbed this from outside. Oh, yeah. It was just ice and that was the one that had the Virgin Mary holding baby Jesus. I thought that was pretty funny.

58:59SpeakerLook at that.

59:00BubblemanYeah. I did not manipulate this photo at all. My four-year-old son went outside. He collected a bunch of ice off the deck and he said, Dad, can you take a picture of the ice? I was like, sure, dude, I'll take a picture. I took the picture. I didn't edit it for like a month. I remember going back and looking at it and going, what the fuck? I'm not religious, by the way, at all.

59:20BubblemanI don't look for things in my imagery that aren't there. But I showed this image to like 20 people and they're all like, I mean, it definitely looks like a person in a robe holding a baby.

59:30SpeakerNo, it does. No, I see that for sure. I feel like I would see that in some like fantasy video game or something, you know, absolutely. Absolutely. Some robed figure at least with that hexagonal. You know, framing.

59:43BubblemanSo you must spend a lot of time on microscopes and in that world. Don't you feel that when you go into the bug or really the macroscopic or the microscopic world that you are in a different world? Doesn't it teach you about perspective and perception and how if you change your perception, you change your perspective? And I never understood that as much as. Going into these little tiny worlds where these little creatures exist.

1:00:14SpeakerI think so. We were born to natively see a certain resolution of the world. So of course when we see a bigger or smaller resolution of that, it does change things quite a bit. I also feel like... I was going to say something particular about that. Yeah, I mean, like, I feel, I've always said that, like, the mythos about, like, fairies and, like, even, like, things like specters and things that are invisible, perhaps, are not always so invisible.

1:00:46SpeakerThat's kind of how microbes are, too, you know, when you think about it. Before, people had an idea, a very, you know, a crisp... Well-defined idea of like the microbiological world is what I'm trying to say here. You know, we, you know, obviously we benefited from these invisible creatures for a long time, like with fermentation and making cheeses and other sorts of things like that. And to me, it's very, it's like magical in the traditional sense of the word, really.

1:01:17SpeakerIt really is. And I think a lot of the metaphors from such stories about such creatures like Faye being... mischievous uh possibly even dangerous you know because they'll they'll riddle you or they'll or they'll do things that are like um you know counter to what you would think would be the case i feel like it's an excellent metaphor for like you know pest management in my case but also just in looking at the world in general and how these how we interact with these organizms because it can be capricious um it cannot be always so reliable sometimes they're incredibly reliable or you can rely on them to be I think it's very useful as a perspective tool.

1:02:03BubblemanAbsolutely. 100%. Well, I think it's almost time for a morning dab for myself. I have not had a dab today. I actually fly to Michigan today for my first trip ever to Michigan later on after Hash Church. I'll be heading down there and spending a bunch of time in Monroe down at the lab. I'll be spending time in Lansing. And even Detroit. So it's kind of, yeah, it would be interesting to see what they got going on.

1:02:30BubblemanI know they got crazy shit going on. They got like the plague in their soil there. What is it? Is it Botrytis? Is it Septoria? Septoria, dude. Oh my God. What is that?

1:02:44SpeakerYeah, it's a big deal. And as I got through talking to somebody recently about, you know, it's really terrible. It's a really difficult pest, pathogen. It's been in a lot of other crops. There's all kinds of septoria. Kind of like everything I said about powdery mildew practically is true. Not like its evolution, but like its capability, its ability to hybridize a lot, its ability to move great distances, and its ability to specialize on different kinds of hosts.

1:03:12SpeakerIt's got that in spades. Um, through different mechanisms. And, but what's worse is that whereas powdery mildew, true to its symbiotic past, you know, it kind of all, it can only really exist on living tissues. Septoria does not do this like Botrytis or Fusarium and some of these other necrotrophs. Um, it, it, uh, destroys the tissues and just keeps going and systemically, uh, you know, uh, colonizes the plant.

1:03:40SpeakerBut what Septoria is do uniquely, Which makes it even worse than some of those others I mentioned is that they're much more capable subsisting on dead organic tissue and also other hosts for that matter in the soil, in the substrate. So the problem is that you might get rid of them on the crop or you might deal with them or endure them in some way. And then you think everything is fine, but because they blew in already and they might even have been in your soil, if you got new soil or something like this too, they're there now.

1:04:15SpeakerIf they weren't there, they're there now, right there. So when, you know, when you put your next plants in, it's like you're dealing with them on day one, day zero, in fact, instead of before. So there's this kind of, so this can have like a double whammy where like the last crop you just had your exposure to that might've been, um, Problematic but doable and now right afterwards you weren't expecting it now you had the rug pulled out of your off your under your feet right and that's kind of what what trips people up quite a bit and then all the plants around if you're growing in a greenhouse or exposed to the outdoors you know it's in your region now and there's not a lot of biocontrols for example that take it you know to the hills there's research from University of Kentucky where they looked at a bunch of Really common biocontrols.

1:05:01SpeakerThey're very commonly used in cannabis and abroad. This for hemp, technically, but, you know, this is still, this is how they do the research, right? And even the noxious compounds, even the fungicides you wouldn't use in cannabis were not altogether particularly effective. If you consider compared to control, you know, still like a 30 or 40% infection rate is still like not tenable for most crops, right? So yeah, so I'm not here to say that I have the secret sauce and I have the solution and the truth and you should just have to just buy my book or my process, you know, for $19.99 and you'll have no problems, right?

1:05:43SpeakerWhat I'm trying to illustrate is that I don't know anyone who is legitimately doing quantified, you know, testing, which is really important here, I want to say. People can make claims about whatever. But I have found a lot of people struggle with septoria. And I find that some people, the best solution, the most feasible, practicable solution is actually sometimes to change your exposure to the septoria because it's so overwhelming.

1:06:11SpeakerAnd maybe there are resistant plants out there. And maybe there are other microbes out there that are going to be more useful or that we can find. But I found like a lot of the trichodermas and the other ones that people are very familiar with they're just not cutting it in a way that is economical for people who are growing well that makes sense I mean so like go ahead yeah I just said like in a vacuum in a vacuum or a very controlled space you could perhaps make it work but what I'm saying is that people in the field where it matters are having lots of trouble and I think that that's a really important Thank you for joining us.

1:07:02BubblemanAnd so the one year they were like, okay, well, the farmers had basically figured, look, it's the rain, it's hitting the soil, and then it's bouncing up onto the plant. And that's how it is. That's the main pathway for like 95% of this shit. And so they did something they didn't want to do. They covered the whole field in a plastic. And it took all of minutes before they posted that, that Josh and Kelly from Dragonfly Earth Medicine were shaming them on Instagram.

1:07:32BubblemanAnd I was like, guys, like, dude, like, these guys are trying their hardest. Like, give them props for what they're doing right, not shame for what they're, you know, because they're using, you know, he was like, oh, the plastic, you know, you can't, you shouldn't be using the plastic, which was funny because Josh sent me a video later. He said, well, I'm just, I'm just closing my greenhouse right now.

1:07:49BubblemanI'm like, oh, with what? He's like, oh, my tarps. I'm like, what are your tarps made out of? Long pause. He's like, uh, metal joking. Cause he knew. And he was like, well, but I use my tarps over and over again. And he's just using that as a one time. I got where they were coming from, but they don't grow 17 acres. They, you know what I mean?

1:08:07BubblemanLike they're growing a much smaller amount. It's the vacuum that you speak of. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:08:36BubblemanThank you for watching.

1:08:53BubblemanIt's a lot of work, you know what I mean? And these guys want to do it right, but not at the expense of losing an entire crop. So they made the choice, we're going to do this. They ended up getting like 125,000 pounds of fresh frozen from that, you know, doing that, whereas it was a fraction of that the year before because this damn septoria just absolutely crushed them.

1:09:20SpeakerYou know, it's a it's a it's a very relatable story. And, you know, like that's so like your example here, these are like horticultural techniques, right? They aren't even considered like, you know, the typical buzzwords of like using a microbial or some sort of plant extract or something like this. You know, it was by solarization, I think, is part of it, too, maybe. And also, yeah, like cutting off the ability for the septoria, because it's true, that is a very common way for septorias and many other similar kinds of microbes to bounce out from the substrate into the foliage, like, you know, like as a contrary to powdery mildew, for example.

1:10:00SpeakerYou know, powdery mildews, ironically, despite their lineage being the way that it is, they don't really have an association with the soil really. Maybe sometimes debris falls and then in nature the seeds come back up and then some of these sexual spores that are in this really indurated structure, they release. And then sometimes the spores get on the young new plants for the next generation. But typically most powdery mildews we care about are asexual and those spores don't hang around a long time.

1:10:29SpeakerSo like there's a big difference. You can't use the same logic for one fungus that maybe has a lot of similar physiology to another thing. You have to learn the difference between their life cycles, their abilities, what are some of the plants. And there's tons of different septoria, possibly more than if I'm conservative here, maybe three or four species. You know, of Septoria that can colonize cannabis and maybe they have different abilities or possibly even subtypes that are, again, specialized for cannabis in particular.

1:11:01SpeakerAnd that remains to be like articulated, but we see it in many other crops. So it wouldn't be surprising to me, especially since cannabis and Septoria has been in North America, for example, for hundreds of years, right? That's enough time usually for these effects to occur.

1:11:17BubblemanI often wonder, like, if the DEA had half a brain back in the day, if they were just like, we're going to buy Promix, the company, we're just going to infest it with mildews and spider mites and thrips, and then all the growers will come and buy it, and we'll see how well they do. And I, you know, I'm not a big conspiracy guy. I've heard the conspiracy that there's ticks that have been released out east, that there's an enormous amount of ticks that make you allergic to meat and all these other things.

1:11:43BubblemanThat just kind of blows by. But I thought, man, like... I'll tell you, if you really wanted to eradicate a plant like cannabis, you've got to think they must have been doing some like bug and viral and bacteria work back in the day too.

1:11:56SpeakerThey did. Well, there's documented evidence of them at least considering it. But my understanding is that there's no real evidence, no real evidence of, You know, of them actually implementing. And here's the reason. It's for the reason I just said about microbes being different and knowing what they do. So to their credit, there's examples where they looked at like certain fusarium populations and like saying like, could we release like a biocontrol, plant biocontrol for cannabis using some of these, you know, pathogens.

1:12:29SpeakerThere's a myth about russet mites being used in this way, but that was for Russian star thistle. It was all for cannabis. Rust and mites are very species specific, so it wouldn't have worked for cannabis anyways. But people see rust and mite, they see government release, and they go, oh my God. But that's not the case. But for these examples here that I'm talking about, the problem is that if you were to release it, like Fusarium, for example, that was specialized for this, it's so wildly evolutionarily...

1:13:01SpeakerThank you for watching.

1:13:17SpeakerYeah, I think that the problem with using something like that is that it quickly gets out of hand and there's entire departments, maybe less of them now currently as I speak, but there are certainly departments that were used to like see like to murder board a plan like this and see like are there non-target organizms that will be affected. So usually we're pretty good about that kind of thing.

1:13:41SpeakerLately, I would have to say, and we've even had some turnarounds for certain pests using biocontrols and other non-noxious treatments, whereas some other ones we still spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year trying to nail a solution that's practical, like for the spotted lanternfly that keeps spreading around North America, mostly the U.S.,

1:14:10SpeakerOh, you're muted.

1:14:13BubblemanI was just saying how crazy it is, the relationship that humans have with bugs. We have these like beetles. I don't know if they're, or it's in Manitoba, but pine beetles. And they just climb into the trees and you can drive through the forest and you'll just see huge swaths of trees that are like kindling, just basically dry. They don't have a drop of moisture in them.

1:14:33BubblemanThese beetles burrow into them and consume these things. And you just got to wonder like, Like what is the system? Is it to thin out the trees? Is it something we've accidentally done because we brought this fucking beetle from somewhere it never was able to travel on the back of an RV to another place?

1:14:49SpeakerThat's usually it. It's usually that. And then also, well, like what could also happen is, you know, like we have like where I live in California and I grew up, you know, I think I mentioned this last hash church, but I was like in the Boy Scouts growing up. I went to Yosemite. I went up Half Dome as like a 12 year old or 13 year old.

1:15:09SpeakerYou know, I went up Mount Whitney as like a 14 year old. I've always been an outdoorsy type person, hiker, and also a lot of places in California where we would have oak cover and pine trees and all that stuff. And it's incredibly sad to see the devastation of the oak trees. And part of the problem is there's exotic beetles that destroy the trees and that kind of thing.

1:15:34SpeakerBut there's also the fact that because some of these oaks have been allowed to propagate so much and so closely together, It kind of augments the effect of the beetle. And so like in nature, probably there would be a thinning, like you're talking about a huge extirpation, like naturally. And then you kind of have this like tessellated, you know, developmental like regrowth afterwards. And, you know, this is over hundreds, you know, over millions of years, oaks are very ancient.

1:16:05SpeakerYou know, you get these massive groups of oaks that are just everywhere, and then they kind of butt up against the other trees. But nowadays, you know, there's pathways that the beetles can exploit without having anything to countermand them. And usually it would have just been space and time, and maybe some other factors, but now those big factors are no longer in play.

1:16:31SpeakerLike you said, you know, it's totally not related to the pests like these people who are growing with the tarp. You know, they're just using a technique. You know, it's not chemical, not biological, just a changing in the physics of what's going on. And the same thing is true here. That can be extremely important. It's like an emergent property, you know. You can't tell how a tidal wave happens by looking at a molecule of water.

1:16:58SpeakerYou know, you can't make those inferences at certain scales. And so more becomes complexity just by being more of itself. And I think that's a really interesting concept to go under.

1:17:11BubblemanWhat did you post there, Dr. Mark?

1:17:13SpeakerYeah, I put a paper that I found in chat. I mean, again, I think this is not unique to Japan, but this study was done in Japan on Septoria cannabicola. Cannabicola, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So what is that? I mean, I'm looking at this for the first time. Oh, yeah. So it's here, actually, since you asked.

1:17:46SpeakerI have it here, right? Yes.

1:17:50SpeakerSo Septoria cannabicola is one of those species I was talking about earlier. Thank you for watching.

1:18:23SpeakerUsually there's some differences in what they're capable of and maybe even are able to hybridize if they're truly the same species. But to your point, I have this example from that paper specifically here. Yeah. So if you look at table one, Matt, there's like a bunch of fungal species that they list there. And I, you know, again, this is where I get lost in the details of exactly what they're trying to show us here.

1:18:52SpeakerAll these are prevalent in cannabis or that these can be. So there's Septoria Cannabis, which is its own. You mean this table one here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can see. So you see. So we're not. Maybe you could share your screen. Yeah. Marcus, let him share his screen so he can show this.

1:19:19BubblemanCan he not share his screen?

1:19:21SpeakerYeah, I can share.

1:19:23BubblemanYeah, you shared earlier. You asked me permission, which was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:19:27SpeakerI was going to share my presentation too, but let's look at this. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. We're talking about it here. No, since we're talking about it here, here we have this.

1:19:35BubblemanWelcome back, ATN.

1:19:37SpeakerHey there. So yeah, this table lists of isolates and reference sequences used in the studies. This is just from GenBank. So they're just looking at these. You see, these are the species on this side, fungal species on the left, the locality they found them in, the host they found them on, the strain number that they were given, if given. And then these appear to be the genes, right?

1:20:02SpeakerYes. So these are like different, like, these are like different, like... genetic information like the ITS band and stuff that they use to like compare different like fungi in this case for example like with you can't tell different species uh enough just by using like ITS you have to use like different other genes too that are conserved and those are hot links right like do those link right to a gene database or something like that that tell you about the gene it looks like they are NCBI links still yeah if I check them yeah But you could certainly access them.

1:20:40SpeakerThat's what I'm talking about when it comes to like the ability to use this information for the individual is becoming more possible. There's like hiccups and I don't always use it or find it practical to do so. But there's people out there, researchers and stuff that, you know, I think that with certain... mechanisms and and software programs people can oh yeah well with ai and genetic algorithm you could basically mine all kinds of information here but i guess he so is is the is the important thing to kind of take away is that so there's a couple different species that live on cannabis right or those are just different locations well these are different well here yeah so to to answer exigently you've got This example here, this is cannabis sativa, but this septoria, all these other septoria cannabis species, this is on cannabis, this is on cannabis, these are all the same species, septoria cannabis.

1:21:38SpeakerBut they're different, you see, they're different strains, you see. So they're different populations that were... So that's a strain of the fungus, not the cannabis, right? Yes, that's my understanding. Yeah.

1:21:55BubblemanYeah, see, because you see how they have... Because there is no such thing as a strain of cannabis.

1:22:00SpeakerYeah, there is no...

1:22:01BubblemanRight, yes, yeah.

1:22:02SpeakerBingo. Sorry, maybe that's a dumb question. Yeah, get out of here, man.

1:22:08BubblemanNo dumb questions, especially from the only PhD in the room. Yeah, for serious.

1:22:14SpeakerYeah, exactly. You got to really get it together here. But let me show you this. Let me show you this. Yeah, so maybe go to your presentation, which is probably more informative than that paper. No, no, no, it was good paper. It's featured in this presentation, so you got me to, you got to the quick of the issue. Good setup for you. Exactly, exactly. So here we go.

1:22:38SpeakerSo this is from a master IPM presentation I made a while ago. It's not available anywhere, and I'm reorienting some of the slides, but like when I talked about Septoria recently in Missouri, for example, I took some of these slides here. So there's, so these are all, so they belong to a group of, of fungi that are not necessarily related by lineage, but are related in what they do and how they, how we as growers articulate them.

1:23:07SpeakerSo they're called leaf spot fungi because they make a spot in their leaves. Right. So, um, I take it. This is all outdoor. Thank you for watching.

1:23:37SpeakerYeah, basically, yeah, leishmaniasis or like leper disorder, you know, leprosy. So you've got necrosis in the middle here. This is leaf tissue that was already used up and eaten, and you've got spore-producing structures that are in here, basically. And then as it expands outward in a radial way, you get this like chlorosis, and that is the fungus working currently, you know. So this... We'll become brown, yellow become brown, right?

1:24:08SpeakerAnd, you know, this, these are different examples of people who've got leaf spot fungi of different kinds. If I go back, you know, it's not just septoria, it's alternaria. There's another groups like bipolaris and circospora and anthracnose, which some people have heard of before. And a bunch of other ones, which I'm not going to name here. So, but these are all leaf spot fungi and probably perhaps, you know, several of these, actually all of these have been found in cannabis, different species of maybe only one species in different genera.

1:24:39SpeakerThese are all different groups of species. But yeah, that makes sense. So like, for example, this septoria cannabis species that they found here that they have here in this example from this report from Kentucky, You know, it's the brown lesion, yellow circle that I was talking about earlier. You mostly get it on the bottom of the leaves as it starts coming out from the substrate. From the splash back.

1:25:03SpeakerFrom the splash, exactly. Yeah.

1:25:07BubblemanJust climbing the plant and decimating it.

1:25:10SpeakerThat's what your friends were trying to avoid, too.

1:25:12BubblemanOh, trust me, I know. With like thousands of plants.

1:25:18SpeakerAnd... And so, like, for example, if you were trying to look at, because people always ask me, well, what plants should I companion plant or not companion plant? What should I use? And, you know, this is all speculative. I want to be really responsible and put myself away from the competition and other peers by saying, we don't all know the answers, you know, because we don't. But, like, if you were to look at Sertoria cannabis speculatively and you were to look at species that are closely related to it, this is like a, Philogenetic tree, which basically means that they're looking at the relationship, the evolutionary pathway somewhat of different species and how they correlate with other relatives that are closely related.

1:26:01SpeakerSo you can see here in this sort of line graph that you've got Sartoria, possibly a different species altogether, which we could get into called Neocannabina, but the taxonomy for Sartoria is so... So those are septorias of

1:26:47SpeakerThat colonize Calendula, which are marigolds.

1:26:50BubblemanI think, I think I found another joke for you while you're doing this. When you're reading through those, when you're reading through those crazy names and you're, you're like Calendula, Viola, add cocksuckerous.

1:27:02SpeakerIt's like that. Is it like Parks and Recreation where the guy was like, I just use rappers names for my plants. Like, Oh, look at those little Chris's. They're really blue and really nice.

1:27:15BubblemanThat's awesome.

1:27:16SpeakerAbsolutely. Well, you know, uh, scientists makes them really, so you think that's a joke, but you're actually hundreds of years old for it because, um, I challenge you to find what the Venus fly traps scientific name is and what it means, um, or orchids for that matter. Uh, and what, what their, what their, uh, Nomenclature refers to and how that has to do with Greek and ancient Roman society.

1:27:44SpeakerYou can just have fun with that one. Tell us about the Venus flytrap. Wait a second. So what's the deal with that? Well, it's a euphemism for something that's not YouTube appropriate. Oh, okay. So, yes. So that's where the scientific name comes from. And for orchids, you know, it refers to the same reason why we say testament in English, if you want to look at the etymology of that word.

1:28:21SpeakerSo anyways.

1:28:22BubblemanYou know what another nickname for it is? The meadow clam.

1:28:28SpeakerThat's right. So, so calendulae, marigolds, right? Maybe you don't grow those near cannabis. And then this Seegsbeckiae, this is St. Paul's wort. So like warts, wort, wort, wort, wort plants. If you have those around, if you're able to find what those are. Oh, Etienne, were you saying something? Oh, okay. Sorry. You were muted, but I still paid attention.

1:28:59Collin PalmerWhen you said wart, it's St. John's wart, you know, so yeah.

1:29:02SpeakerOh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so like, you know, so, you know, these might be plants, these marigolds, these, you know, these violets, you know, viola is violet. So if you have some of these plants nearby, you know, maybe be a little extra cautious or they're on your property for home grower or commercial grower, you know. This might be, you know, this might be a vector point, speculatively. You know, I just wanted to say it that way.

1:29:27BubblemanSomeone in cannabis is going to see that as a gauntlet throwdown. They're going to be like, I'm going to start a greenhouse of marigolds next to my greenhouse of cannabis. Fuck Matthew and fuck Hash Church. Yes.

1:29:38SpeakerYou know what? You know what? Add it. Add to the scientific, you know, information and and make a study about it. That's how I will definitely support that 100 percent.

1:29:49BubblemanYou know, when I first when I went and when I first went to Rubicon Organics, it's a organic greenhouse grow here in Canada. And on either side of this greenhouse, right, they got like their five acres or whatever. And then there's five acres next to them on one side and five acres next to them on the other side. And it's raspberries and blueberries. And these are extremely sprayed crops.

1:30:13BubblemanThese are extremely like they get powdery mildew. They get all sorts of different things. And I just thought, wow, like that is kind of a crazy place to grow wheat. But they seem to pull it off. I don't see them spraying or any of that. And another scientist. It's a scientist kind of day here on Hash Church. How's it going, Jeff?

1:30:37SpeakerOh, good. Wait a minute. Hang on a second. There we go.

1:30:39BubblemanSorry. You pulled it off. Matthew was just presenting on all things powdery mildew and bugs and septoria and just interesting. I don't know if you've ever met Matthew, the sink angel. He's the bug guy. You guys know each other? Hi, Matthew.

1:30:54SpeakerHello. I'm a chemist. I don't think I have met you before. So we met.

1:31:00BubblemanWe met Jeff through Dr. Mark. Dr. Mark brought Jeff on. And I just met Jeff in person for the first time in Massachusetts, like walking around the floor.

1:31:09SpeakerMe and Mark met.

1:31:10BubblemanI know he's just standing there just like looking at me. Kind of. I was looking at him like, dude, that guy looks like I know him.

1:31:18SpeakerYeah. Yeah. I really didn't expect to see you there.

1:31:24BubblemanYou really didn't. You were definitely surprised to see me. Yeah. You're like, why are you here? I'm like, it's a cannabis event, man. What do you mean? Like, this is what I do.

1:31:35SpeakerIt's a long way from Vancouver. But hey, all right. So yeah, it's good to see you, Professor Mark. Good to see you, Etienne. Hey, good to see you. We'll see you in just a couple of days, right? Oh, that's correct. Yeah. That's correct. I will be at MJ Unpacked. I have been working hard on my preparations. The fabric arts are a harsh mistress, and I have been preparing some fresh pants for the event.

1:32:09SpeakerFor those of you who don't know, Jeff wears tie-dye pants. Oh, I know. Trust me.

1:32:13BubblemanNot just tie-dye pants.

1:32:16SpeakerSo I've handmade my batch. I tried to work in the colors. This is challenging because a lot of the MJ Unpacked media... Oh, that's great. A lot of the MJ Unpacked media is purple and orange, which are difficult colors to use together.

1:32:44BubblemanAre you making them yourself? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, you should reach out to Forrest, who was a regular on Hash Church. He had a son with, he's got a son who had epilepsy, still has epilepsy. Caladrius Network. Forrest is absolutely on another level with his tie-dyeing. It is insane. Dude, I've been trying to get a tie-dye from this guy for like years, just for my son. I'm like, dude.

1:33:09BubblemanHe has a Wade tie-dye, right? I know. Yeah. Dude, the Wade laughter tie-dye with Wade's face. I was just like, oh my God, dude, this is so good. So yeah, I will gladly link you up and maybe he can just, you know, a five minute conversation, give you a couple of tips and tricks and send you on your way. I feel like you can follow SOPs.

1:33:35SpeakerYeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that sounds fun. Right on. Jeff, tell everybody about the panel that we're going to have down in Atlantic City here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we will we'll be having a panel with the title Cannabinoid Synthesis. From safety risks to drug discovery. I believe I may have minorly butchered that. But and I've been putting together the slides for it. I basically this is going to be fun for me because I really don't have to do that much.

1:34:15SpeakerEveryone else gave me slides and then I'm just weaving them together into a slideshow. And the whole panel is just going to be Professor Mark and Dr. Chris Hedala from Proverde Labs. And it's going to be Tesfaye Tesfazian now from Colorado, or from... Sunflower Wellness.

1:34:42Collin PalmerSunflower, right, yeah.

1:34:43SpeakerWellness, yeah. Am I right? Sunflower Wellness? Yeah, he's subbing in for Wes, right? Subbing in for Wes, yeah, yeah. Wes Cruces was going to come. Yeah, yeah, so I've been practicing this lineup with Wes Cruces in it from Colorado Chromatography and Sunflower Wellness. Wellness is it? Yeah. Sunflower Wellness. That's right. All right. Trying not to butcher names here. They now have a new company called Blackstone Therapeutics, right?

1:35:10SpeakerYeah. Yeah. They got, they got, Wes has a lot of companies and I don't know, like, I think some of his, you know, some of these other folks that work with him are affiliated with some of the companies, but not like, I don't know. I was going to get to ask him more about it while I was at MJ Unpacked, but unfortunately he had an untimely family emergency and couldn't join us.

1:35:29SpeakerSo we have Tesfay. And anyway, yeah, so we'll start out talking about natural cannabinoids. And we'll just introduce some chemistry concepts and the mirror images of the molecules, stuff like that. And then we'll talk about the structural variation of cannabinoid molecules and what you can do and which structural modifications you need chemistry for. And what some of those results are, how how you get new functions out of cannabinoid molecules from chemistry.

1:36:03SpeakerSo and we'll talk about the risks, how hard it is to purify synthetic cannabinoids often and some of the. And we'll even, Mark, Professor Mark is going to get to show off his trick for how to make completely pure Delta A THC. In case you wanted to, in case the world needs to know, right? If you guys want Delta A. But you know, actually the world does need, like if you want to understand the, if you want to understand the pharmacology of these molecules, this is a really hard thing about cannabinoids.

1:36:37SpeakerWell, I guess the way pharmacology is done is understanding single molecules and then understanding their synergies one on one. And but with cannabinoids, man, the complexity of the mixtures is usually so high that it's very challenging. It's just that immersion properties we were talking about earlier, I'd made the point that like. More is different. You know, like the physicist says, I forgot, I'm forgetting his name. I'm blanking on his name right now, but he's in my presentations.

1:37:04SpeakerI always mention him because, you know, you can't tell like how a tidal wave works or a creek works or how an ocean works from looking at like a teardrop or looking at a molecule of H2O or simply hydrogen oxygen, right? You couldn't figure that out. More changes it, right? And so cannabinoids, obviously, right? Physiologically, right? Yeah, yeah, you're at a point where the mixture is complex enough that it can sometimes be challenging to interpret what's happening.

1:37:37SpeakerYeah, or what could happen. Or to compare experimental results between different studies because they have different batches and you don't know what impurities are there in each one, right? That's a really good point. Yeah. And comparing, you know, comparing anything clinical to the real world also. So, you know, it just, yeah, cannabis is a tough one, man. It's not like, yeah, it's not like, it's not like simple drugs.

1:38:06SpeakerCan I ask some questions? Is anyone here familiar with CBDV? CBDV? Yeah. Yeah, right? I know the structure. Yeah, okay, because I read a study about CBDV being, so plants that had high CBDV in them that they studied versus those that did not proportionally, they were less good hosts for cannabis aphids, which was interesting to me, especially since they're specialists. So you would think that And maybe they resist all the other cannabinoids, fine, maybe this is a novel thing, you know, maybe it's more novel than the other cannabinoids, I don't know.

1:38:48SpeakerBut it was interesting because I was like, well, what would be, and we have you here on, so it might be the best time to ask this question, which was like, is, well, you know, if you speculatively, I know there's maybe not a lot of research on it, but like, what are some maybe benefits of CBDV, if I could ask such a, you know... You know, nubile question or like maybe like what would be some cool things you like about the structure or the pharmacology if you know anything about that because it might be cool for other reasons.

1:39:18SpeakerYeah, yeah. So CBDV is a, it's like a homologue of CBD. So what that means is that there's a tail part on the molecule that's a little shorter on the CBDV. Is that the verinic acid? Because I was asking. That's right. That's right. That derives from, yes, what they call the verinic acid. Yes. Okay. Yeah, the CBDVA is... Yeah, right, synthesize, well, all right, yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah, so there will be, putatively, the CBDV is coming from CBGVJ, right, which is synthesized from the varenic acid, yeah, so.

1:40:06SpeakerI couldn't find very much about what the varenic. Nature of it is like also there's THCV, right? Yeah. So I don't think we really know everything about the pharmacology of CBD yet. Right. Regulate it because it's so complicated. But also like one of the challenges is that, again, like this is actually kind of in a way comes back to the same thing about why our knowledge is so limited that like a lot of the studies done with CBD.

1:40:37SpeakerRight. Even many medical studies may have been done with CBD that was not 100 percent pure. And if there was small amounts of THC in it, that could have had a big result, a big impact on the results without it being accounted for. So, yeah, I feel like...

1:40:55BubblemanIt's never accounted for in that sense because I remember when CBD really became a thing and then people would get like CBD dominant flour and they would call it CBD. Just like today everyone's calling volatile organic compounds terps. Some of them, maybe the majority, but not all of them.

1:41:17SpeakerRight, yeah, yeah, they could be terpenes, terpenoids, or some of them derived from other synthetic pathways, right? Yeah, thiols and thiolates and esters. Yeah, right, which, yeah, so they could be, in some cases, totally different. So, anyway, yeah. Would we expect a longer tail to make it maybe reside longer in a receptor, potentially? That's about the extent of my biochemistry knowledge, so I'm really scraping the barrel here.

1:41:43SpeakerI think actually usually the... Yeah, size of that tail matters, right? Yeah, that does matter, but the structure activity relationship is generally that the binding constant... I guess generally speaking, the binding constant increases, so it actually binds tight... With a longer tail. ...over the tail. Right. And... And something happens between C5. So THC is a partial agonist at CB1, but THCV with the two carbon shorter side chain is an antagonist.

1:42:18SpeakerSo yeah, so you could change the pharmacology just based on... Thank you for watching. See you next time.

1:42:44SpeakerIt's a pretty exceptional cannabinoid actually compared to many of the others in terms of like how kind of chunky it is, I would say, and also, yeah. Well, there's free rotation about those, right, Jeff? Right, yeah, yeah. But it's going to prefer to mostly sit in a state where it's like this, basically, with two parts of the molecule are... Thank you for joining us.

1:43:30SpeakerThe most simple like lock and key picture that we learn from our like introductory biochemistry course because it's not direct. The interaction is generally speaking directed by hydrophobic interactions which are less Thank you for joining us.

1:44:11SpeakerEven the category of activity changes in some cases.

1:44:15BubblemanI like how in chemistry truth is truth and we don't get upset at the... Oh, you're hydrophobic? How dare you treat water like that? It's not like it's not a belief system. This is just a thing that's occurring in nature. It's just... Well, hydrophobic, hydrophilic.

1:44:35SpeakerThere's a yin and there's a yang there, right? It's kind of like one has to be there to counterbalance the other. I think I've read that hydrophobicity... Oh, yeah, keep going. I was just going to say CBD, which... Isn't a CB1 binder, right? It's a negative allosteric inhibitor, changes the activity of THC. So like a full specter of medicine that has both CBD and THC, the THC is going to work different at the receptor.

1:45:06SpeakerAnd I think the same pairing is true with CBDV and THCV. So CBDV, similar to CBD, Hits the trip receptors. It hits GRP 55. And it's just it's so interesting because if you look at the number of. Thank you for joining us.

1:45:51SpeakerAnd then, yeah, I ignored CBC in that discussion. But this, again, Jeff, right? If the cannabis plant teaches us anything, it teaches us the activity is not a single active ingredient, which is used to what the FDA regulates, right? Single active ingredient. Yeah. In a matrix of whatever, you know, aspirin. This is a fair challenge, right? Right. Multiple active ingredients. Each ingredient is also hitting multiple different receptors and systems, and often in ways that we don't completely understand yet.

1:46:26SpeakerYeah. Right? No, we don't. These biochemical pathways, I mean, they are so complicated. And they're spectacularly redundant, right? They have feedback loops on feedback loops. A bunch of them don't really do much of anything most of the time because other stuff compensates for them so much and because there's so much redundancy. But then everyone, you know, they don't all have like designed and intended functions. Yeah, it's like the pink, right?

1:47:00SpeakerEarlier, well, earlier I was describing like, yeah, well, as like, for example, like some of these pathogens have evolved. Some of them have been, were like good guys, basically, long story short. And they were, they had certain abilities to communicate with the plant and exchange nutrients, but then they lost control of their ability to regulate. Thank you for joining us.

1:47:47SpeakerThank you for watching. See you next time.

1:48:10SpeakerRight. Which is powdery mildew. It's through is rarely lethal to the plant. It's not great for us. It really messes with us, but it doesn't really kill the host right away. How's it reproduce? Where's it go? Exactly. How's that pan out? Not very well. I mean, so some of them, I mean, probably there were some individuals, there's some probably powdery mildews that will kill the plant right away, but they just don't ever reproduce.

1:48:30SpeakerSo you never see them. Yeah, or at least not as much, you know. Yeah, it's crazy stuff. But like, you know, over time, their genes change or you get like bacteria. I was talking about there's the bacteria, some of the most... Core bacteria in aphids that they need, that aphids need to like break down the sugars in their body and give them the nutrients and synthesize nutrients that they lost the ability to synthesize.

1:48:55SpeakerIt was E. coli. It was E. coli. It was closely related to E. coli. And then over time, as it became a symbiont, it basically, like all of the genes that weren't important, that were important for its like free living form, those go away. And like you said about redundancies and genes, like some of them stayed. And Mueller's Ratchet is cranking that, you know, cranking that change.

1:49:17SpeakerBut over time, you know, the genome, it basically becomes like endosymbiotic, like mitochondria or something. Yeah, right. It becomes like an organelle almost. Exactly. Exactly. And they are intracellular. They are intracellular. And when you see the frequency with which stuff like that happens, like it's very fascinating to appreciate like how varied and...

1:49:42SpeakerI mean, you just see so many patterns repeated again and again and again in nature.

1:50:11SpeakerSo true, so true. Yeah, that's very cool. Isn't it? Yeah, there's a lot of, I feel like there's a lot you can draw out of that. Not only just practically helpful to know, you know, in the grand scheme, but also metaphorically, I think there's a lot of interesting, you know, I don't like narrativization of science. I'm really against it. I try not to do that kind of thing because I don't want to introduce like a weird human bias or something and like what we understand but it is kind of it can be kind of spiritually beautiful in a way to like look at how interconnected these things are and some of these the physics of some of these interactions and and to take some meaning out of it like for me the idea that just by close association an organizm can go from one end of the spectrum mutualism Or perhaps the middle of the spectrum, just simple commensalism to one or the other and then switch between them or even make versions of themselves in the case of microbes that are all along across the spectra.

1:51:12SpeakerYou know, that's all kind of cool. And it shows that like, yeah, the world is very complex and we can't just simplify it. Or at least not always. Not always, yes. That's what makes the simplifications that we can make so powerful. Yes, exactly. That's eloquently put, yes.

1:51:30BubblemanIt's also why I was definitely nervous when politicians started saying, you've got to trust the science. I was like, whoa, just a second. I don't know much about science, but I'm pretty sure we don't trust anything.

1:51:44SpeakerDoes the science trust the science? We're still paying the price. For that, I feel like scientists in America are still paying the price for the politicization of science.

1:51:54BubblemanIt's terrible, dude. Absolutely terrible. It should be remaining neutral. It should have no... I mean, I get it. Look, there's lobbying and there's money and there's dollars and that's always going to try to affect things. And obviously, from a scientific standpoint, it's a lot better when you're funded and you have money and people are giving you money to do the work that you need to do. But holy fuck, is there a level of corruption that can be involved in that?

1:52:21BubblemanWell, that we clearly all saw, right? We saw it. It was pretty...

1:52:25SpeakerYeah, I get worried about the, you know, there's a lot of commercial incentive now. Scientists are much more encouraged to develop patents from their research and then spin off companies. And I think that can be great sometimes. I think it can be good to hustle. I'm not totally anti-capitalist, but... I have noticed how that can give us a bunch of, sometimes that can give us half-baked ideas that get hurriedly deployed and they actually do harm to our society.

1:52:55SpeakerI mean, I believe that we're partly like we're reaping the rewards of what people proposed to be an education boom. Because of new educational research and science, and they brought a bunch of screens and computers into classrooms, definitely COVID helped. But there was also, there was a big research industry complex around it also. There were lots and lots of grants to support education innovation. And so people came up with all these apps and screen things and stuff like that.

1:53:31SpeakerAnd now our kids are dumb and they can't work in the real world.

1:53:34BubblemanSo... Unmute myself. I'll add to another part of that. So, after I take this bong rip.

1:53:46SpeakerDo it. Well, I'm in the education business.

1:53:54BubblemanYou have a very big responsibility, Dr. Mark.

1:53:57SpeakerI'm sending to... You gotta be one of the cool ones.

1:53:59BubblemanYou gotta fucking, you know, get through to the young people.

1:54:03SpeakerA week from today, I won't be on Hash Church because I'll be attending commencement at St. Michael's College where I teach. And I tell you what, guys, it is just, as a professor, when you watch those kids go across that stage and get their diploma and know that You were part of the educational system that sent this student into the world. Those students are going to remember me for the rest of their life.

1:54:38SpeakerAnd they're going to remember. Jeff knows this. I took two of my students to the ACS meeting this year. And man, I tell you, Jeff, that was just the biggest rush in the world, man. Just watching my students stand in front of their posters At the ACS meeting as Professor XYZ walks by, right? Oh, tell me about your poster, you know? Tell me about your research, you know?

1:55:03SpeakerAnd there I am watching from afar, you know? And, you know, I tell you, Mark, you know, you're right. And Jeff, you know, you're right in a way that we've raised this internet age kids who have internet in their pocket, which is a really powerful tool. And all of these tools, AI, you know, I have to be able, as a professor, I have to be able to look at a lab report and understand, is it real or is it AI?

1:55:35SpeakerLike, did they just go to fucking Chad GPT and say, oh. Here's the lab report question, you know, how many moles of calcium chloride, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And just have some AI spit out answer. And I have to read, you know, some of these questions are, it's not just like a value like 38.5. There's an essay question, right? Like one of the essay questions was, why are we adding, why are we adding hydrochloric acid to the solution of sodium benzoate?

1:56:11SpeakerAnd, you know, what we were doing is we were separating, doing acid-based extraction, separating sodium benzoate, which is now water soluble. Now when they add the acid, holy shit, the benzoic acid precipitates out. They isolate it by filtration, you know. I mean, part of it is just like there's that aha moment of learning that, again, as a professor, you like to be around the students and you like to be able to guide them into how do you solve problems in the world, you know?

1:56:42SpeakerCertainly like learning all the elementary aspects of chemistry, physics, and math and Yeah, super, super important. But if you can't translate it into a career where, say, you're looking at, I don't know, if you're working at a grow and you're looking at feeding schedules, or if you're using AI, you know, I'm seeing AI being used, Marcus, you've probably seen this too, in the grow, right? So people are looking at like,

1:57:08BubblemanThank you for joining us.

1:57:29SpeakerBut do you still need like just because you have a smart phone, smart phone plus dumb person is dumb output. You need smart person, smart phone, smart person and smart phone could now be. So I guess what I mean to say is that it's a tool, right? And like any tool. You have to be able to use it in a productive way, but you still need to have the human element of input and creativity.

1:58:00SpeakerSo when I'm looking at like one of these lab reports and it's just cut and pasted right out of chat GPT, you should see it, Jeff. I mean, again, we're like calculating moles, calculating yields and rates and stuff like that. You could easily program that out of AI. But if you get the wrong, like if you don't understand difference between first order rate constant and second order and you build the AI model wrong, you're going to get a wrong answer.

1:58:30SpeakerSo you still have to know enough chemistry going into using AI in order for you to use it productively in a way that it actually makes sense. I don't know. Is that all making sense? Kind of like... Right. Yeah, definitely. I think also, I mean, you've got to get like. People still need to be able to do stuff with their hands. Right. You got to be able to figure stuff out sometimes.

1:58:57SpeakerRight. Like the real world's messy. So, well, you said a lot of what I was seeing, but there was a lot of what I was seeing towards the end of my time. I was teaching lots of labs and I've seen students come in who can't turn a screw. You know, they can't. They don't know what a Phillips head is. Their hands are just soft and weak. I don't know.

1:59:23SpeakerThey say, I can't tighten this clamp anymore. You just go over. It's like, what? You just turn it.

1:59:28BubblemanListen, I saw a side-by-side picture of what a man looked like 40 or 50 or 60 years ago versus today, like a 25-year-old man. And the 25-year-old man from like 50 years ago or whatever is ridiculous, dude. Like full, crazy, hairy chest, big density, big, just big, like full mustache. Like it's testosterone. That's it. You put a lot of that shit in, you get manly men. You take it out.

1:59:58SpeakerYou just described me, Mark. Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.

2:00:02BubblemanThere you go. Well, they put a picture of a 25-year-old guy next to him and he was like super skinny, didn't have a lick of hair.

2:00:09SpeakerI'm all hairy on my chest.

2:00:10BubblemanI bet you are, dude.

2:00:12SpeakerSome of this is other genetics. There might be some other genetics at play. Absolutely. I've been hearing, and I'm not like a milk, dairy supremacist or something like some people I see out there in the world, but like Apparently, I was reading about a correlation being really high with people who are taller, maybe larger built, and their consumption of milk, but not just their consumption of milk and milk products, but that they come from peoples who are not lactose intolerant and have been doing that for a long time.

2:00:45SpeakerSo it's like the diet buildup over time plus the gene adaptations to that equal this. But you have to have both. You can't just start drinking milk And you'll get like all the benefits, right? Right. Some body types aren't going to use it as well. 100%. Or other foods for that matter, right? Yeah. Well, they're going to get kidney stones, right? From all the calcium. Yeah, exactly.

2:01:11SpeakerI was visiting my in-laws in Romania and they love to eat like milk products and like especially like You know, spoiled milk, yogurts and these sorts of things where there's a controlled, you know, yielding of the dairy product to make something else. And I just couldn't handle it, man. It's not my thing.

2:01:52SpeakerThank you for joining us.

2:02:15SpeakerYeah, it really is. Everyone always likes to say it's this or that ingredient, but I'm always like, yeah, I don't know.

2:02:21BubblemanWell, I was just going to say, is it just this? I like that. It's most likely this intense combination of everything. And sure, the thing that's a part of it is a part of it, but it has to be everything.

2:02:37SpeakerYeah. That's why we grow plants. These isolated populations are often not...

2:02:42BubblemanThese are my CBDs. This is CBD. It's like, that doesn't look like CBD isolate. No, no, it's my CBD cultivar. I'm like, right, but why would you just choose the one thing to call it? It's a variety of things. Yes. I think the human mind, if the most is a certain thing, we automatically call it that. That's what it is, right? That's why everything's terps, because terpenes are in full percentages and thiols and these other compounds.

2:03:11SpeakerWe need the simplicity sometimes. It's exhausting to list all of this. I have word limits on my articles sometimes.

2:03:19BubblemanDon't I know it? Yes, exactly. I think honestly stuff like this is built for these analytical scientific minds that would otherwise, I mean honestly, probably jump off a cliff if they didn't have the mental gymnastics to perform with the deep dive of the shit they were jumping into. Could you imagine? Like what the fuck would you guys do?

2:03:41SpeakerI mean, I like to think that I come from a long line of like the guys who knew all the berries and which ones you were supposed to and not supposed to eat. Yeah, dude. Pretty important. Written in blood and maybe other fluids.

2:03:53BubblemanTalk about a valuable lesson, hey, when someone dies. All right, right. Take that one off the list. Bob died.

2:04:00SpeakerThank you for your service. Damn.

2:04:04BubblemanThat's crazy. I am not sure if Mr. Smith is going to be making it in, but I did invite Ted Smith. He's got some pretty crazy shit going on with his Compassion Club in Vancouver. They're still harassing this guy. They've just been like... Thank you so much for joining us.

2:04:41BubblemanHe said he was going to come in around 11 so we can continue our conversation. I just was kind of forewarning you guys that I'm going to leave. He posted the other day saying if anyone has podcasts they can invite me on to I'm trying to get this message out. And Ted's such a fucking good human being like truly a good human being. He has been doing what he's been doing like for 30 plus years nonstop.

2:05:07BubblemanI think they sued him for $2 million a couple years ago. They've probably arrested him 30 times at least. He's probably gone through every bank and credit type, what do they call them, unions, credit unions. They're like banks in Canada, but they're kind of below banks. Anyway, I'm sure he's gone through all of them. Kind of Etienne's story, but down here in Canada and not... Thank you so much for joining us.

2:05:57BubblemanYou know, his trials and tribulations. I thought it was a great segue to go from the bugs and pests into the pests and government. It's like different types of pests. And then Jeff rolled in and I was like, oh my God, he's going to be able to speak to both sides of this. This is. This is going to be so good. So let's continue with our bugs, Matthew, and the science that we've been talking.

2:06:20BubblemanBut just know that when Ted comes in, we're going to shift because I may keep past church three hours today. I'm trying to hit up Blackcomb for the last day that I'm going to be able to hit it or second last day. Got friends up there and it would be a breeze in 56 minutes if I could bounce out of here and go do that. So absolutely continue with the bugs.

2:06:41BubblemanTed, if you're listening, come in when you feel it.

2:06:45SpeakerYeah, I mean, I mean, like, I like to make that joke a lot that there's like, I usually specialize in pests that are not bipedal. But for those kinds of pests, you have different solutions as well. And I think in a lot of ways, the same kind of outlook, be very holistic, have multiple options at your, you know, at your disposal, because they're also very sophisticated in what they can and can't tolerate.

2:07:08SpeakerSo yeah, I am down. Let's see, let's see. Oh, I have two of these things. Oh, well, here's a cool thing I'll immediately get into.

2:07:20SpeakerSince we were talking about Septoria beforehand, I'll just mention that a really cool thing about the, I guess in a way, a really important point is that Septoria cannabis samples have been around for a long time in the USA. About 142 years ago, in 1882, 1889,

2:07:42SpeakerIn 1891, we have samples of Septoria cannabis in Kentucky specifically. So my father is from Kentucky and, you know, people were growing hemp for all kinds of reasons and cannabis too and all that stuff. And You know, there's been a lot of time, you know, to make this point, there's been a lot of time in history where some of these pathogens are so common, we're just breaking the, you know, barrier.

2:08:06SpeakerWe're just, you know, looking at the top of the ice cap to see, you know, what these relationships are like. But we might find that it's a lot more integrated, the septoria and the cannabis than we previously thought. And so, you know, like we'll have to, we'll probably have this spear and shield, you dynamic but then understanding exactly how pointy is the spear in the case of the pest and how you know how strong is the shield in the case of the cannabis you know i think that will be really helpful for growers to make informed decisions about what to breed or how to grow in their region and that kind of a thing um i wanted to i guess i was talking about these products that weren't working against septoria right so like i don't want to just say that um You know, they don't work.

2:08:56SpeakerAnd then it's like, someone's like, oh, well, I bought this product and it works. You're a liar. You don't know what you're talking about, Matt. Well, I mean, when we quantify it, when we have university professors go and do research and look at not just cannabis, receptory cannabis, as we see here in this C figure, but other ones too, like Botrytis, like there was basically, you know, total germination.

2:09:21SpeakerYou know, you can't see this very well, but on the bottom of this graph here, we have all the different products. And then we have products that you shouldn't use in cannabis, mostly. And yeah, not only did the mycelial growth, you know, still, you know, 15% is still better than control, which is 30%, but not that much, right? Not a huge difference, maybe statistically significant in that way.

2:09:50SpeakerBut like if you're a grower, you know, that might not be enough. You know, if you lose 30% of your crop or maybe more because it's 30% growth, if you only retard it halfway, you know, that just might not be enough is my point that I'm trying to make here. So these were the products that they used. And you can see that a lot of these are, you know, like Trichoderma Aspirellum, you know, Eulocladium, another biocontrol.

2:10:18SpeakerBacillus subtilis, various ones, QST713, someone had mentioned that earlier, I think. Bacillus amylolequifaciens, Bacillus mycoides, even extract regalia, you know, these are products, right? Regalia, extracts from Japanese knotwood, I believe, is what it is. All of these, and the amounts that they used, and the rates that they used. And the mode of action, you know, all this stuff. And they weren't very effective. So I just want to make that point to people that like you might hear advertisements and claims that these biocontrols are working for Septoria.

2:10:58SpeakerAnd maybe they do. Maybe they will for you. It's possible. But I think it's also possible that at certain scales or in other certain contexts, it just might not be worthy enough. Potentially, you might just not have, you know, it might be too much money, too much application, and you won't get the benefit that you need. If it's like, you need something that will kill everything really quickly.

2:11:20SpeakerYou know, that might not be available currently, unfortunately. And so we talked about Septoria Cannabis. And there's also like other ones with similar names, like Septoria Cannabicola from Japan here. This is the Mie Prefecture in Japan. And on the right, we have a Copen Geiger climate map. So this is like how they articulate the different climates in Japan. If you didn't know, it gets pretty hot, pretty humid, especially in the summertime for the heat.

2:11:49SpeakerMie is in this like section right here. And this is a man named... What was his name? Oh, I can't see it because of the thing. Yeah. Mitsutaro Shirai. And he was classically changed, a Western trained pathologist, plant pathologist, one of the first in Japan. And here he is with some notes looking at some of these fungi. We might think in modernity, That like, they didn't have really good ways to look at these fungi, but look at these.

2:12:17SpeakerEven with the microscopy from a long time ago, they were still able to like capture and write. And this is something in science that I kind of miss. People who were like drawing their own figures. You had to have, it was a craft to be a scientist, I think in some ways. I'd be curious to get Mark or Jeff's impressions about some of this too, in comparison.

2:12:37SpeakerObviously it's not the same thing, and I'm happy that we have the sophistication that we have, but You know, this was, they called in Japan, the Satoria, they called it Taimashiro Boshibyo, or Cannabis White Star Disease, which is kind of a poetic name. But yeah, these might be two totally different Satoria species in two totally different areas that have now, you know, kind of traveled across the globe.

2:13:02SpeakerAnd although they have similar capabilities, and as you can see here in the top left, sort of similar symptoms, they aren't totally identical. Oh, we're going to the Botrytis section, but Yeah, so that was just my little spiel about that section of Septoria and how it develops. And what are some of the considerations we might want to think about intellectually, highbrow, strategic, 30,000 foot sort of way, you know, like.

2:13:30SpeakerThank you for watching.

2:13:50BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

2:14:05BubblemanI know you as a smiler. I know you're going through the shit, bro, as always. I can't believe it again. But it was so nice to see you smile when I told you my little metaphor. We've had Matthew, who specializes in bugs and spores and all these microscopic sort of parasitical like things that attack and harm cannabis. And I was like, oh, my God, we're going to have Ted Smith come in and talk about the government version of those exact the same things.

2:14:32BubblemanThat are that are fucking with, you know, what you're trying to do in Victoria. So, A, welcome. Great to see you, brother. Hey, buddy. B, you know, people know who you are, but it's still give give a little lowdown, give a little five minute cliff note on Ted Smith and what Ted Smith's been doing for the last 30 years in Victoria. And then let's get into our conversation.

2:14:55BubblemanI thank you for that presentation, Matthew. That was awesome.

2:14:59SpeakerYeah, happy to help. Hey, Matthew. Hey, hey. Hey, and thanks for having me on the show like this in such short notice. But yeah, it's been a little hectic lately. So yeah, backing up, I...

2:15:19SpeakerI'm seven generation farmer on both sides in Ontario and got a philosophy degree in university and struck out west 30 years ago to make the world a better place and stumbled across the group called Hempology 101. And so I started to do, you know, different educational things, write a book, have meetings. I moved to Victoria. Hempology was started in Vancouver.

2:15:46BubblemanDid you know that I was a part of Hempology?

2:15:50SpeakerYou were part of the original group there?

2:15:51BubblemanNot the original group, but I came in and was always like I supported and facilitated and made sure that I learned as much as I could from them as well. So it's pretty cool to hear you say that.

2:16:02SpeakerYeah, yeah. I only went there for a couple months. It was January 95. I went to the first ones there. I think it was Terrapin Station was what Dana called her little apartment there on Hastings. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, so like, I think it was like by April, I was like, this is awesome. I need to expand this in Victoria. You know, the big city wasn't really my thing, but the island was just, you know, perfect for me.

2:16:28SpeakerI could see. So that's pretty neat. I know a lot of people had their roots there. You know, I met Dana Larson there and helped write the business directory in the first Cannabis Canada when it was, you know, the hemp and marijuana newsletter. And You know, all those early, really amazing days were really quite something. And so, yeah, so I came from that, got a van, moved to Victoria, got a pager and pamphlet.

2:16:53SpeakerOh, sorry. I met a woman that made cookies and brownies and volunteered in the AIDS community. And so I saw firsthand what eating cannabis did for people that were literally dying. It should turn their lives around. Like smoking cannabis was good for people with AIDS. It slowed things down. It could make them handle some of the cocktails they were being given at the time. But if they ate cookies, they'd put weight back on.

2:17:19SpeakerThey'd feel like living again. It was dramatic. And so that's what inspired me with Dennis Perron and the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club leading the way. But literally, it was such a new thing that I think I pretty much made the first mandate for what is medical in terms of requiring a diagnosis from a doctor of a serious medical problem. And so requiring a diagnosis fit within the charter of rights and freedoms, because when you have a serious medical ailment, you have the right to choose your course of medical treatment.

2:17:55SpeakerSo we've kind of built ourselves around the charter in many ways still do. And so, uh, yeah, so got the club going in January, 1996. Um,

2:18:08SpeakerI was still doing hempology at the time. Actually, five years later, I got busted at 420 up at UVic, passing out joints. And then downtown, I was giving out cookies and got busted with 420 cookies at a little protest I was doing, which just made the Buyer's Club more popular. I got a storefront. We got rated four times in the storefront in 2002, 2003, beat every single charge of the Buyer's Club.

2:18:32SpeakerI got a couple of convictions for giving pot cookies out and stuff, but nothing major. 2009, my bakery got raided with Owen Smith. That was a big one.

2:18:42BubblemanRight? Yeah.

2:18:44SpeakerYou provided pictures in our trial for that of the trichomes because we had to explain to the judge the importance of trichomes. And the analogy that our expert witness used was like having a maple tree be made illegal if a leaf falls out. Or if you take the maple syrup out of the tree, essentially the government had said that the tree was legal, marijuana was legal. Thank you for joining us.

2:19:34SpeakerSo at that point the judge realized the absurdity of it and we won the Supreme Court of Canada unanimous decision, you know, made edibles and extracts legal for Canada and really was the final straw in prohibition. Sadly at the time my love Gail was dying of cancer. I'd met a patient along the way and she testified in that trial and watched it live online but sadly not enough cannabis in the world could save her life so When she was dying and passed away, I left for a while, even from the industry entirely.

2:20:11SpeakerLegalization sort of happened anyway. And then I went back to the club. And since legalization, we've been raided four times. We were evicted from our last location and face fines of, it was 3.2 million plus interest now. And so now it seems like they're coming after my girlfriend and I are home. She was on the board of directors when we were fined. And the recent raid sort of two weeks ago, it seems now they're coming after our landlord.

2:20:45SpeakerSo yeah, it's been quite the long chain of events.

2:20:51BubblemanDude, you are dealing with the worst case of human septoria that you could possibly have encountered. And so luckily we have Matthew, the IPM. What's that? How long were you sitting on that one? You were like. Like since yesterday, man. Come on, I have these all pre-done.

2:21:08SpeakerWhat an insult. Immediately, top of the lexicon for insults. You human septoria. Yeah, he sucks. I'm so sorry to hear about it.

2:21:19BubblemanI would also mention, you know, when Ted mentioned his bakery being busted, that was really huge. Canada had a medical marijuana law. Marijuana, M-A-R-I-U-A-N-A was defined as like the buds and the structures. And so nothing else was legal. And it was the simple little old lady kind of like, so this is legal. My cannabis is legal. I bought it at the store. I throw it in a teabag.

2:21:45BubblemanIt's still legal. I put it into the water, still kind of legal. I pull it out. I've now done an extraction and I'm facing 14 years in prison. So how, when Ted says it ended up changing Canada-wide, well, the judge was so brilliant, really, I got to give him like a standing ovation because instead of Going federal, he said, I only have the power provincially, initially. And that provincial power, what he did was he defined marijuana As all things marijuana, anything that came from the marijuana plant could be marijuana.

2:22:21BubblemanSo if you had a limitation of like three pounds, it could be the seeds, the stock, the buds, the resin, the oil, the whatever. It's all just marijuana. And it was very soon after because because of that happening to Ted and then fighting it, B.C., I don't know how short of a period of time was, but for the shortest period of time, we were the only ones that were allowed extracts.

2:22:43BubblemanIt was quite something.

2:22:45SpeakerIt was a fascinating decision that had a number of impacts in different levels. One of the interesting things that happened was soon after we won the 2012 case of the lower court decision that Thank you for joining us.

2:23:21SpeakerAnd so it was pretty amazing when they they they'd done this like investigation into me to find all my hidden money and realized that I actually have no money. I put everything back into the place and take as little as I need to live. And they were shocked because at the time it was quite busy. And when they came in, they were a little timid because they weren't sure, you know, how we would react.

2:23:46SpeakerAnd I was happy. I'm like, wow, this is amazing. You're telling me that the police aren't going to raid me anymore because I'm medical and that you just want your tax money now. I'm like, I'm turning this club into a nonprofit society and you're making this legit. and they're like oh no no we're not making this legit we're just collecting our taxes and i'm like no no the day that you're here to collect your taxes and i'm not being arrested anymore is the day it's getting legit and so we went public with that in the newspapers and in 2012 that was when the proliferation of dispensaries hit Vancouver and Victoria when everyone realized there was a margin of safety to operate and it got to the point where the cities of Victoria and Vancouver and a few others even created bylaws and and allowed licensing for these illegal stores and that's when Harper was in charge that's when he's pushing mandatory minimums and despite that there is this massive swell of civil disobedience that was you know across the country like Alberta was one of the few provinces And maybe a couple in the prairies that didn't have open storefronts operating, but certainly Ontario, Quebec, the East Coast, there's more and more people every month, it seems, openly operating and defying the law and having municipalities and people in positions of power turning a blind eye to it because they recognize that Health Canada's programs are fundamentally flawed by not allowing the alternatives that patients obviously needed.

2:25:17SpeakerAnd so that impacted the medical community because they were forced to recognize that cannabis isn't just something that's smoked because they could easily write it off when it was something that they thought was a smoked product. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, it can be made into creams. It can be made into suppositories. It can be made into all these other products that they hadn't even tried to wrap their head around.

2:25:39SpeakerSo it bust that community open as well. And really, it was heard around the world. Like we talked about how it affected Canada. And it did in a significant way. But I've heard from people in Australia and certainly other places where this law in South America really was heard. And these changes impacted far more than just our little club, that's for sure.

2:26:04BubblemanUnbelievable, super profound, absolutely like reverberating out throughout the world. That was insane how many shops popped up. I feel like cannabis culture had eight of them just like in Vancouver.

2:26:19SpeakerWell, I know and more in Ontario even, right? Yeah, yeah. Ontario just exploded there. Yeah, it was pretty wild.

2:26:27BubblemanIt was really wild.

2:26:28SpeakerThat whole story is so funny because like, I mean... When you smoke cannabis, you're also extracting the active ingredients. Good point. You can call it a flame extraction if you want, you know? Paralysis.

2:26:45BubblemanRight? It's full decarb and extraction.

2:26:48SpeakerWe're doing both simultaneously. How efficient. Right? Because, yeah, I'm not consuming the flour, right? I'm sucking in the smoke. Well, it was fascinating. In the trial, our expert witness, Dr. Pate and Kirk Tusa, our lawyer, had an incredible exchange at one point. Because Kirk's a bit of a cannabis nut too. And Dr. Pate described how when a joint is burning, The heater actually vaporizes or decarboxylates and then vaporizes the glands, the trichomes, long before the burning embers actually combust the plant material.

2:27:32SpeakerAnd he was saying that as you inhale, you increase the temperatures. Therefore hitting like all the different cannabinoids when you're changing the temperatures as opposed to a vaporizer or something that has a very distinct temperature. And I think I've also read about how like certain molecular weights of certain constituents in cannabis like cannabinoids and some of the other metabolites, right? Like as you're In this particular, you know, use case that you're demonstrating, you know, deftly that they kind of like move differently over time as you inhale, you know, some of them are heavier, some of them are lighter.

2:28:18SpeakerIs that not true? That's true. And that's exactly the way to think about it is that some of the molecules are heavier. And so they tend to be enriched in the roach. Yes, right. Yeah, that's why I like it. I like their concentration in the initial flower. So can you say that again? I talked over you. No, that's all right. Yeah. So, you know, like if you if you look at the concentrations of all the compounds in the initial flower, then the roach is going to be enriched and kind of like the heavier compounds.

2:28:49SpeakerYes. It's back to the earlier with the previous one and the and it's going to be it's going to have much less of the lighter compounds. That's molecular weight is like a pretty good general, you know, it's not the only factor in volatility, but I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty good for this. We're talking like in big numbers, right? It's like, it's like, you know, air is like water, but less dense, right?

2:29:14SpeakerStill a fluid, you know, system, so to speak. And I know a lot about that, because the coolest thing about bugs, if for people who don't have an appreciation for insects, is that they're the first, they're the first flyers. The first animals to have independent flight and not, you know, like they came from things in the ocean, right? That they were moving around in the ocean and now they're in the air and they made wings.

2:29:37SpeakerAnd so I think that's kind of, it's kind of incredible that the things that were floating around in the dense air is now floating around in the less dense air. And yeah, so kind of neat. But yeah, but yeah, like in great amounts, right? That's a lot of chemicals moving around and all that stuff. So. I deal gas law, all that stuff. Yeah. I know chemistry words too.

2:30:02SpeakerYeah.

2:30:03BubblemanYeah. So Ted, bring us back to one of the main reasons we wanted to have this call. Cause now obviously there's all sorts of, I wouldn't say there's all sorts of medical, but there's some access through different platforms for people on computers and stuff. I don't know of any actual medical stores other than clubs like yourselves. But there's obviously lots of dispensaries. But there's still a reason to have this conversation because one of the things the dispensaries can't really do and I agree with this because I have people all the time that reach out to me that are that are really sick like stage four you know and they're just like is there what you know I'm just looking for hope I always try to point them in the right direction without being like look I'm not a doctor or whatever but I can tell you things that I've helped others do that they seem to it seemed to help more help more than not and so um How's it going with that?

2:30:56BubblemanOh, you need a large dose sometimes. You need a large dose. I'm not a big doser for me. Like the five and the 10 milligram gummies that I can buy are great at the stores. And in fact, now my daughter's buying me bags that have 10. Thank you for joining us today.

2:31:36BubblemanYou know, like eight or nine hundred or a thousand milligrams in a day, because that's terrifying. Like even when I the last person I gave it to was an elderly woman. And I was like, look, I'm not a doctor. These are here. Here is a doctor. You know, I always give them like Dr. David Allen or some other person that I know that could potentially point them in a direction in a little safer manner than I do.

2:31:58BubblemanBut when people have lost all hope and they're in stage four and they're told to go home in palliative care and die, They're willing to do pretty much anything, but eating a gram of oil for 60 days in a row has got to be like the Ironman challenge of cannabis experiences like that is no fucking joke. There's a reason why the only people who fucking do that are terminally ill. And God bless them, especially the ones that come out of it on top.

2:32:25BubblemanBut let's talk about limitations in edibles in Canada. Yeah.

2:32:31SpeakerOkay, well, when we won our court decision, you know, it was a fantastic moment, but Health Canada came out with this limit of 10 milligrams per product. And so that was pre-legalization. So when legalization came in, they just sort of adopted the same measurement. Um, which is, uh, you know, one that they've determined, uh, is enough for, you know, sort of a general healthy person to have an effect.

2:33:00SpeakerUm, not necessarily a, a strong effect, but certainly something that is, is noticeable. Um, however, you know, for a lot of patients in chronic pain, um, or patients fighting cancer, uh, 10 milligrams, uh, doesn't cut it. And so that limit was one that we originally saw as the next challenge. We didn't know when or how, but we saw that that needed to change for patients at least.

2:33:33SpeakerAnd there was a review on the Cannabis Act a couple years ago and they considered changing that limit for medical or recreational and they decided that for the safety of the children, they would not do so. Which is really ironic because there's a lot of other really heavy, hard drugs that could kill children that are available. And so they just decided that in no form at all would cannabis be available in more than 10 milligrams.

2:34:03BubblemanJust the definition of virtue signaling, using children as a fucking shield while simultaneously prescribing the most deadly drugs on the planet. Often, if you know this about sickness, when you get really, really sick, and I'm not going to say exactly which disease they do this for. I believe Colton told stories of this very thing. They're like, well, let's give them some of the Parkinson's medications. Let's try this drug that we use for, you know, restless leg syndrome.

2:34:41BubblemanAnd they start, and they do this also to children. And I'm not judging them for doing anything it takes to keep children alive. That's not my like anyone that wants to care for people and children in my books. You're good. But the Hippocratic oath is to do no harm. So it's strange. And it's what makes me not trust the sometimes hospitals and the sort of systems that operate that hospitals operate in.

2:35:11BubblemanThank you for watching.

2:35:31SpeakerRight?

2:35:32BubblemanHow about I can go buy a vat of Jack Daniels today enough to kill my whole family?

2:35:37SpeakerYeah. People are doing lots of other totally crazy treatments at this stage. And so when everyone acts like, oh, you want to do this to kids though? Then it's like, what? Yeah. Yeah.

2:35:49BubblemanNo, it's, it's, it's a lot. So yeah, speaking to the milligram limitations, obviously, 10 milligrams is not enough for people in extreme pain, people that are like, they're trying to replace like dilaudid and like oxys and Fentanyl, like the hardest of the known painkiller drugs. Like try to wrap your head around this. To me, these people fit into a category of what we should call some of the most vulnerable, vulnerable people in our society.

2:36:20BubblemanThey're in pain all the time. It would seem like the least we could do is not get in the way of them reducing that, particularly under the guise and virtue signaling and protecting fucking children. That's bonkers, man.

2:36:35SpeakerWell, this is why we're in a way shifting from the medical argument to the harm reduction argument because, you know, a lot of our patients are trying to avoid using prescription drugs that often are more harmful to them. And so, you know, the doctors and medical community can argue Uh, about, you know, whether we can prove cannabis is, is better medicine or not, but we can prove that it's less harmful than the other options that are available to people.

2:37:09SpeakerAnd, you know, just as harm reduction alone. You know, cannabis should be like the number one tool in the toolbox for preventative medicines because it can be used at sort of all three stages of harm reduction. It can be used to prevent people from using opioid drugs and painkillers in the first place. And I've known people that have surgeries using cannabis edibles and suppositories and not take any opioids or few opioids to even have massive surgeries.

2:37:41SpeakerIt can also be used as a replacement for You know, illegal drugs, more on the smoking end, but certainly combining smoking and eating high doses, you know, a lot of people can stop using, you know, really, you know, heavy drugs and switch to cannabis. And then also for people that are using methadone, you know, in a way that's just another substitute drug that the pharmaceutical industries are pumping into people.

2:38:09SpeakerYou know, if you can switch them from methadone to cannabis, then, you know, that's a big healthy step away from, you know, things that are not good for them.

2:38:19BubblemanHey, when you can get a pure extract and you can smoke that like a crackhead, that will get you higher than crack. And I know that from a crackhead who I helped get off crack by giving him a big ball of bubble. We're going to get started in just a few minutes.

2:38:52BubblemanI think an important factor on the edible conversation is that, A, the only thing they could be upset about or worried about is a falsehood, which would be that people are going to consume edibles and drive cars and crash and do these things. Very different from alcohol and opioids, for that matter, is that when people get too high on cannabis, Instead of lying about how safe they would be to drive, they actually don't want to drive.

2:39:20BubblemanThey're going to make their case for it, and they're not going to drive. No one who gets too high on herb is going to be pressured into driving So, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's

2:39:55BubblemanThat really make you convinced you're not impaired. Almost like PCP when you forget that you've taken a drug, right? The disassociatives that you can take where you get so high, but then you immediately forget you took a drug. I don't like those kinds of drugs. Cannabis, on the other hand, you get super high, you're like, wow, I'm super high. I hate a bunch of cannabis. Probably too high.

2:40:18BubblemanI learned this at a very young age when I was dealing weed out of my house back in Winnipeg, Manitoba. And people would smoke with me. And even back then, I was pretty bit of a heavyweight, trying to find the good, good stuff and lucking out on an amazing mentor. And people would get so high that there were multiple times I left my house and they were sitting in their car.

2:40:39BubblemanI'm able to drive just right out in front of the house kind of thing and just be like, hey, you know, come come back in the house and just chill out by the fish tank for another half an hour and have a juice and you'll be fine to go. And so that is the beauty about cannabis. You know, yes. Will there be experiences? I'm sure there already have been where someone's eaten a five or a ten and probably in conjunction with alcohol and forgotten about it.

2:41:01BubblemanAnd that's going to happen. But the bottom line is those shouldn't be used as excuses to keep higher doses because people who are eating higher doses that can't that and don't get me wrong. I know people who could eat 500 milligrams and absolutely drive to work. Like no problem. They're affected by it completely different. But most people would not do such a thing. They would say, I am not doing this.

2:41:25BubblemanIn fact, they wouldn't even say anything because they'd be in a fucking coma. At least I would be on 500 milligrams. What about you, Ted? Are you 500? I'm like you, Marcus. You're like me? 5, 10? Yeah, I can't.

2:41:34SpeakerI can't take a whole bunch of it. You know, I'm good with 10 or 15 megs. I can take more, but I usually don't need more of that. That's my use case. But I'm like you, I I'm pretty sensitive to it. So that's been beneficial to me, you know, even with tolerance and all that.

2:41:50BubblemanAnyways, have you ever hurt yourself badly and needed it? Because that's where you learn the lesson of how it can affect you. Like if I really destroy myself, like when I break a collarbone, which is very, very like it's sore. It's like a rib. Every time you breathe, it throbs and moves. It's a floater. It's terrible. Anyway, the last time I broke it, I used edibles and I didn't get hot.

2:42:12BubblemanAnd I was eating like 30, 40, 50 milligrams, which is a lot for me. That's like a five to 10 X on my dosage. And I did not get high. But what I did do is my collarbone stopped throbbing and it felt amazing. And I thought, you know what? I don't think people can understand how deep the pain is. That's a bone. Imagine the pain that Wade was suffering from at the end of his life or some of these cancer patients or some of these people.

2:42:41BubblemanWhat you think a 9.5 is, is like a 3.7 for some of these people. There are levels to pain like there are to everything. And with cannabis, you can just always go deeper and deeper and deeper. And what I've learned about cannabis is when you eat enough of it, it allows you to get into a deep enough sleep that you actually heal. Sorry, go ahead.

2:43:02SpeakerWell, it is a very individual experience. We've learned that genetics play a big factor, much like alcohol, right? There's certain peoples in the world that have a very low tolerance to alcohol and other places where people sort of have a genetic disposition that they can drink a fair amount and still be relatively functional. Um cannabis is sort of the same um and then there's also gut health um I have a bacteria overgrowth in my stomach um and cannabis is an antibacterial which is great in some ways but I can eat like a 500 milligram gummy and most of that actually gets absorbed fighting the bacteria in my stomach and and not a lot seems to get into my system plus my tolerance seems high enough that Yeah, I can eat a 500 milligram gummy and some people might not even know I've done that.

2:43:53SpeakerSome people's bodies don't really process edibles. Yeah, isn't that crazy? People are almost immune to them. I agree. Like for me personally, I'll give you, this is my contrast. It's a documented genetic trait even. Yes, that's true. Yeah. You know, like with Marcus talking about deep bone pain, like for me, I've had, I've had like cuts or like, like strong, like really cuts into like really large gashes or once.

2:44:19SpeakerAnd then I've had like some bone pain before, not nearly as bad as like hurting your collarbone the way you mentioned. But like for me, I have found that at least for me, and maybe it's just you haven't taken enough. I don't know. I usually, if I take too much, I have the similar reaction people have when they drink too much. So it doesn't even get to that point for me.

2:44:41SpeakerAnd I didn't find that it helps me with the pain. The sensation of the pain was still there. Maybe it was somewhat muted, but what did change for me is that I think it was more tolerant up here. At least I feel like that's the experience I was having. If I were to characterize it, that didn't necessarily go to the pain in a way that like a Vicodin would.

2:45:05SpeakerOr at least here, I guess, is what's happening. But you know what I'm trying to say? It seemed to, it just, I think it worked on different, it does work on different receptors and all that stuff. But to me, it was mostly psychological, the benefit in those large pain points, at least for me. Maybe if I had other injuries or other interactions, it'd be different.

2:45:26BubblemanWell, thank God we have a medicine like cannabis. I haven't taken pain pills in a very long time and I've broken 17 bones in my life. So I've been given those pain pills in the past. I'm too sensitive to it. And when you guys say genetic, All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

2:45:58BubblemanIf you hypermetabolize five milligrams and you feel all five right away instantly, like at peak, well, that's going to feel a lot different than like siphoning out a 0.1 milligram every three minutes or every, you know, every however long it is. But that's my theory that that's kind of- That's a big way.

2:46:18SpeakerThat's a right way to think about this. One of the big factors. That's right. Yeah, there are people who just don't have certain enzymes. Yeah, there are a few different steps of the absorption. And the pharmacokinetics can depend on different things. That's why it can depend on what's in your stomach and stuff like that, too, because that will also control how fast it gets into your bloodstream.

2:46:43SpeakerBut yeah, right. Then there's the liver functionalization, especially like the most famous functionalization is THC to hydroxy THC. That happens in the liver, I think, right? It's got to be. I believe so.

2:47:00BubblemanYeah, yeah. 11-hydroxy metabolite does.

2:47:02SpeakerYeah, it's an oxidation. So it must happen there.

2:47:06BubblemanIt's a strong as fuck-ation is what it is.

2:47:10SpeakerYeah. And some people don't have the CYP enzyme, certain ones, or they have mutations. Yeah, that really changed their sensitivity to the 11-hydroxy.

2:47:21BubblemanI'll tell you, 11-hydroxy is the foundation of all brownie stories. Every brownie story you've ever heard that comes, and we all have them, I swear to God, I really wish Brownie Mary would have written the Brownie Mary, Brownie Cannabis stories, you know, because, oh my God, there's so many great cannabis, you know, like Breeders Steve's wedding, three people, all doctors going out on, all MDs, all going out on stretchers.

2:47:56BubblemanI feel like I'm flying, said the Jamaican woman on the stretcher as she was sent to the hospital for eating two brownies because she said, they said, would you like a brownie, ma'am? She said, I'm Jamaican. Give me two. And then proceeded to wolf down two of these brownies. The only person at that wedding who didn't seem to have an interest in the brownies, I find out is Steve's like uncle or step uncle and was like a cop, a motorcycle cop.

2:48:28BubblemanAnd one time Steve was staying at their house and he put a whole tray of brownies in their freezer. And this cop came home from work and proceeded to finish the entire tray of brownies. So he sat there while the brownies were served at Steve's wedding with the biggest shit eating grin on his face, just waiting to see Who was going to go through what he went through?

2:48:52BubblemanBecause I'll tell you, no matter how old you are, no matter how experienced you are, I don't care if you've had psychedelic experiences, the first time you take a breakthrough dose of cannabis, it is so shockingly eye-opening and you are so shockingly present for all of it. You just can't escape it forever until it finally ends hours later. Oh, God bless the, that, that is what taught me how powerful cannabis was, to be honest.

2:49:23BubblemanI swear to God, if I gave, if I gave you enough and you actually metabolized regularly, not the slow, I think, I think I could operate on the person with, without giving them any anesthetic. That's why I love butter so much, man. It's a deep coma, too.

2:49:43SpeakerI went to a living soul summit all the time.

2:49:47BubblemanImagine if your anesthesiologist just had like butter and just like scoop and butter down your gullet.

2:49:54SpeakerI don't know why, but man, like, I don't know why, but every time I make butter and then make baked goods out of it, you're right. Like, but the butter itself too, like you just get it on your hands because you're squeezing out like the cloth with the meat, right? And yeah, like butter is my favorite solvent for extracting cannabinoids. That's actually really interesting. Yeah, I was going to say, I had an experience, like the closest I had to this experience so far because I'm so fastidious about edibles because I'm like you, Marcus.

2:50:25SpeakerI do not want, you know, I have to be very careful. I went to the Living Soil Summit a few years ago at Green Life Productions and they had the, someone had made some like, you know, cupcake maker or like baker and made these little cupcakes for everyone. And someone came out and they said, oh, they're all one mig. I'm like, oh, cool. You know, I'm always like careful though.

2:50:48SpeakerAnd like everyone comes up there getting a bunch. So you know where the story is going. I go and I take two, just two. One hundreds. And no, unfortunately not, you know. But then someone comes back and goes, no, no, no, they're 15 migs each. They're 15 migs each. So it's just enough that like, I think if you just had, if you wanted to have one. Thank you for watching.

2:51:22SpeakerHere in presence like you're talking about.

2:51:24BubblemanYeah, man, that shit is no joke. I'm going to wrap it up in about 11 minutes. So I want Ted to, and Ted's going to, you'll be coming back on and we'll discuss this more, Ted. But I'd love to, for you to, A, just let people know how they can, you know, get plugged into this and follow what you're doing and what's going on and offer support in any way they can.

2:51:48BubblemanAnd just, you know, let people know how they can get in touch with you.

2:51:51SpeakerOkay, thanks, buddy. Yeah, I'm just really kind of getting some wheels in motion for campaigning right now. And so tomorrow I'm having a meeting of a kind of social media committee that starting next week, I'm going to have weekly online kind of Zoom meetings that anybody can join and participate in so I can communicate with as many people as possible on our social media campaign. We need to be sort of hitting on all fronts right now if we want to get our message through about the necessity for storefront access and high dosage edibles.

2:52:30SpeakerAnd so, yeah, so we're doing that. We're engaged in a sort of email writing campaign to our premier, David Eby, What we want him to do is simply put a pause on enforcement actions until we've had a judicial review because we're trying right now to, you know, finish our expert reports and everything to press forward to get a court date because we think the Charter of Rights should be what, you know, overrules or, you know, Uh, everyone considers in this matter more than just what the regulatory laws are.

2:53:06SpeakerSo, um, yeah, we, we just want the premier to, to do a pause on that. So that's, that's sort of the, the, the big goal here. Um, in the meantime, I'm meeting with, uh, our mayor this week and, and hopefully, uh, we'll be getting some support from our city council. Um, we've already gotten some support from the new leader of the BC green party, Emily Lohan. Uh, but, uh, any pressure within the Green Party to, you know, support us more broadly would be awesome as well.

2:53:36SpeakerUm, yeah, so, uh, yeah, doing all sorts of things, um, If people want to follow me, I guess I'm on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn are my main social media forums that I'm using.

2:53:51BubblemanWe'll put all those links in the description. If you can send me a Facebook message and all your details, everything that you're doing, I'll just copy and paste it right into the description of the video and then everything you just finished saying now. We'll all be available for clicking or supporting. And listen, you guys, we always talk about this. ATN is very, he's like, you got to have action, like get up off your ass and do something.

2:54:14BubblemanWell, Ted's offering you some actionable items. They're not that big of a deal. Share the social media stuff. First and foremost, go and follow him. I would expect at least, you know, the two or 300 people that are watching right now that you could do that. It's not that big of a deal. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:54:50BubblemanThank you so much for watching.

2:55:10BubblemanMight be better than looking like a bunch of, it just makes you look petty and small. What is the possible reason? I get it. You have some strange political belief system that you're doing the good work and you're protecting children. In the end, you're actually harming children and vulnerable people on a level that is like shameful to the human septoria, the bipedals, the ones, you know, the ones we're talking about.

2:55:40SpeakerThank you so much for having me on the show here, Marcus.

2:55:43BubblemanYeah, thank you, Ted. And thank you, Matthew and Jeff for popping in and Dr. Mark and Colin, who was in here earlier. I've got I'm going to be traveling for the next couple of weeks, but I'll try and get Ted back in maybe towards the last hour so he can kind of if he has anything more prepared, we can kind of go in on that particularly actionable items that people can help out with.

2:56:09BubblemanWhat else? What else? I think I'm going to go to Blackcomb right now. I think I'm going to jump in my car. How crazy is this? I fly to Michigan today and it's 12 o'clock p.m. It's a later flight, but I'm like, maybe I'll just go to Whistler for the day and do some snowboarding and Enjoy time with my wife. Don't forget to feed your soul. It is the thing that keeps us all going, whether you believe it or not.

2:56:34BubblemanIf you feel depressed or sad or empty, you're probably filling the wrong hole, the black hole that can never be filled. Don't fill that one. One more thing cannabis is amazing at, getting us to find the right thing to fill, which is your soul. Enjoy life. Enjoy music. Enjoy food. Enjoy friends. Enjoy family. Thank you all for watching. Honestly, like I just can't express my gratitude and gratefulness for a the panelists that come on Sunday after Sunday.

2:57:05BubblemanThe people who come and watch our sponsors, you know, Puffco and the Press Club, Grandmaster and Bubble Bags. Thank you, thank you, thank you is all I can say. Be more grateful and you'll feel grateful. Be more critical and you'll feel pretty critical and pissed off.

2:57:24SpeakerPretty cool and awesome.

2:57:25BubblemanRight, Marcus? Pretty cool and awesome. All right. Love you guys all. Much love. Have a great rest of your day. May the full melt bless your bowls sooner than later. Peace.

2:57:37SpeakerHave a great one. Much love. Thanks.