The art of the perfect pre-roll

0:06BubblemanWelcome everybody to Hash Church, Season 12, Episode 21, Sunday morning at 9 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. I hope you're all doing well. I do hope you're all doing well. I am going to quickly delete my voice because it's super annoying to hear in my headphones. I've got a nice show organized for you today, a new company that we're going to be promoting and supporting and talking about.

0:31BubblemanBut first and foremost, let me get that out of the way. Let me get this into the way. And let me begin by shouting out our sponsors. So new sponsor, today's episode of Hash Church is sponsored by Pure Flow. So this is an advanced hollow vortex filter technology designed specifically for cannabis pre-rolls. So Pure Flow rethinks the traditional paper crutch by improving air flow, supporting a smooth draw and helping preserve the flavor and character of the flower or infusion.

1:07BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

1:25BubblemanWe've got a whole conversation that we're going to be talking about it today. And because I just started smoking joints again in the last five to six months, I kind of came across this, thought it was pretty cool and thought, you know, this might be a good idea for us to promote. The Press Club. What can be said about the Press Club? These guys have been supporting us.

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3:50BubblemanSo yeah, there's those guys. Awesome. I'm going to let the crew in here. We've got eight people, if you can imagine, waiting to get in. This is pretty hardcore. Oh, Kyle's got his notekeeper and his AI and his this and his that. All right, Kyle, look at you go with your AI notes and et cetera. Awesome. What's going on, Adam? What's going on, man? How's it going?

4:18BubblemanBreed's been in the house for 15 minutes. I just wasn't able to let him in. Sorry about that, buddy. I feel that sometimes when I let people in before I get the sponsorship shout outs and all of that sort of thing going, I fuck up. So I don't let people in before it's nine in the morning on a Sunday. God damn it.

4:36SpeakerBecause right now I'm not.

4:42BubblemanAh, da, da, da, da, da. Microphone. Oh, there we go. Yes, that's probably what's doing it.

4:50BubblemanPerfect. Can you guys just speak?

4:53KyleMic check one, two. Mic check one, two.

4:55BubblemanOh, I can hear you through my speaker now. Hey, hey. Hey, can you hear me? You're in my headphones. I can hear all of you. Good morning.

5:02SpeakerYou got me here, too?

5:03BubblemanYeah, dude. I can hear each and every one of you. Apologies. See? I fuck up. It happens. Anyway, welcome. This is a whole crew, man. Welcome Kyle and Creed and Robbie and Kyle's Fathom Notetaker. Welcome to Kyle's Fathom Notetaker, which will be in the box all day because Kyle decided to open a notetaker on my... That's awesome. We'll deal with it. Yeah, so today we're in here.

5:30BubblemanWe're going to be, I'm actually going to roll a joint for the first time ever on Hash Church. And I think I'm going to smoke a joint in my office for the first time since I've owned this house. I have not smoked a joint in my office.

5:42KyleMy wife was like, you're not going to smoke a joint in the house, are you? I was like, oh, yeah.

5:48BubblemanI don't think I'm going to. So good to sleep in the doghouse tonight. That's fine. It's all good. It's OK. You can smoke there, too. You know, that's very that's a very good point, Adam. You can smoke in the in the doghouse. So I think I mean, Creed's already way ahead of us. I got some of these pure flows right here. I do want to ask some advice maybe from you, Creed, because you seem to be like really focused on this.

6:14BubblemanI love these. I quite love them. The part I'm fucking up on is at the end. I'm I think I'm stuffing. I've tried stuffing it lighter here. But what's happening as I get to the end, it's sucking the paper in like you can see the ripples on the paper. Each time I take a hit, it's pulling it in. Is there a way for me to maybe pack a little looser?

6:33BubblemanWhat's your what's your

6:35KyleFor sure, this is a bit of an interesting anomaly when it comes to pre-rolls, especially modern pre-rolls that are just increasing in potency, getting more and more potent. I mean, nowadays we're seeing things on the market that are upwards of 40%. And it's like, I'm assuming that like once the joint is lit and the heat, the immense heat from the combustion is flowing through the joint, it's vaporizing a lot of this THC, you know, pre-cherry.

7:04KyleSo, you know, if you have a 40% THC joint, or even if you're smoking a high potency flower, you know, in the high 20s or, you know, some... mythical 30 plus flowers um i'm seeing a lot of shrinkage a lot of mass reduction um you know your water vapor your thc it's all um you know vanishing from the flower it collapses in it creates these little channels and uh blocks the airflow um i think a lot of the mitigation to these problems is uh uh The particle size, you know, when you're grinding your flour, if everything is a uniform particle size, it tends to interlock with each other and block the airflow.

7:47KyleIf you have chaotic particle size or a very coarse mill, I don't see those implosions and those wrinkles and the blockage happening as much.

7:55BubblemanThat's super interesting.

7:57SpeakerGo ahead, Adam. I was going to say, if I could add to that, yeah, You know, I think more than consistency of particle size, and you hit the nail on the head there, the coarser the grind, generally the better the airflow, right? You can pack better with still allowing for, again, better airflow. And what we found, especially with commercial manufacturing, and we see this with many of our customers, many of our competitors is, Thank you so much for joining us.

8:49SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

9:14SpeakerA lot of automations and a lot of a lot of like even the knock box and that kind of stuff, the different ways that they make joints don't really pack that bottom third of the joint well enough. And that's what creates that wrinkled effect. And so I would actually tell you to go the other direction and don't pack it loose at the bottom. I would say pack it really properly at the bottom and make sure that you've got a consistent pack all the way through.

9:44SpeakerYou're going to say the tighter the pack, the better it burns. And also you're going to see the ember or sorry, the ash burn brighter and burn whiter because

10:01SpeakerIt just allows for proper airflow and compaction.

10:06BubblemanWell, I love that we got right into this conversation. I will say I packed mine very tight the first time. It was in my nature to think, well, I'll just pack this tight. And I also have to acknowledge that I haven't been smoking joints in a very long time. So for example, I'm actually, this is awesome. I'm a newbie. I'm a total newbie in this conversation, which is fucking mental when you really think about it.

10:28BubblemanAnd I swear when I did smoke joints back 30 years ago, I have still probably smoked more joints than many of the people that I know who have been smoking joints for 30 years and I haven't been smoked. That's just how many joints I smoked back in the day. You know, like 40, 50, 60 grams on a good day. Right. Yeah, I was flipping pounds, man. I had free weed.

10:49BubblemanIt was easy peasy. Lion of Judah, big, fatty, thick Jamaican papers, four gram joints, complete insanity. I have never smoked a pre-roll. How about that? I have never smoked a pre-roll. Now, my joints that I'm rolling are not infused. I am using some very nice flour. I have a feeling when Creed said what he said, this crush grinder, it dusts cannabis. It's just like shoot, shoot. Which I thought I loved, but now maybe I'll try a different grinder and see if I can't get a little bit of a thicker paper.

11:24BubblemanBut anyway, I'm going to smoke this joint while we were on this conversation. And instead of just, you know, going deep into this right away, I think it would be cool to introduce the team because we really haven't sort of met everyone. We've got a ton of people on here that we haven't seen. Let me see if I can...

11:45BubblemanI'd love to get rid of that Kyle's Fathom note taker because every time I put it on the main screen, it shows up as a box. I can give you all the notes if you want to shut that down, Kyle. And then that way we just got each other and we can go. I think there's also going to be a recording of this.

12:01SpeakerIt's all recording.

12:03BubblemanYou'll be able to search it 100%. I don't know if you guys saw my good buddies, bike and, and, and James took all of the 12 years of hash church and they transcribed the entire thing. And now if you go to hash bible.org, you can literally be like, Hey, where did skunk man sent? When did skunk man, Sam mention, uh, how to, how to force flowering on greenhouse plants?

12:24SpeakerSure.

12:25BubblemanYou'll get links from Hash Church of every single time we spoke about that in the voice of the person who you're basically asking the question to in the first place. So this is a massive, and this will be this episode as well. So if we can put on some great information, this will be a searchable database for Pure Flow in the future. So yes, absolutely everything is beyond recorded.

12:51BubblemanSo what I'm thinking is, as I like this joint, God, I feel like I should send my wife a little message and just be like, hey, is it okay if I, it's good to respect your partner. And I have like the greatest partner on earth. So it would make no sense for me not to do that. So I'm going to send my wife a little text, make sure it's okay for me to smoke this joint.

13:09BubblemanAnd in the meantime, why don't you start Kyle with a little introduction and then you can kind of lead it down the line to whoever you want to pass it on to. And then the next person can choose who they, I just want to hear from every single person on the show. On the panel.

13:26SpeakerAppreciate that, Marcus. And thanks for joining this fellowship, everybody here today. So it's been a long time coming for us to get this product into the market. And I'm really happy to have this forum to discuss it, talk about it, pick it apart, smoke it, enjoy it. But for an intro, my name's Kyle. I'm from Victoria, BC. Which is on Vancouver Island, which many Canadians know as the cultural center of cannabis in Canada, I like to say.

13:59SpeakerMany of the arguments and legislative battles that created legal cannabis started in Victoria, namely with Ted Smith and Owen Smith at the Victoria Cannabis Buyers Club.

14:17Speakeryeah i started my journey in cannabis about uh 33 years ago and been enjoying it ever since so started out as an activist and used to go to the rallies at beacon hill park in victoria with the likes of ian hunter and ted smith where we would actually have a sunday session a smoke-in at the park um every sunday and lo and behold one sunday uh when people Afternoon, my best friend got arrested and it was a big deal.

14:52SpeakerAnd that's a whole nother story, but it kind of drove me underground. I stopped being an activist. I started growing marijuana and distributing marijuana and took it, got into the business side of weed, if you'll say. Been enjoying it my whole life. Around the time that the price of weed started to collapse, I had a few different people in the same week telling me I should get into shatter.

15:24SpeakerAnd so there I was going from woodshed to garage to basement to out in people's backyards, blasting shatter and making shatter. And from working with shatter, I got into oil. And became a bit of an oil fanatic for the past decade or so. Consider myself pretty versed with oil and its various forms. Then I got into oil packaging and from oil packaging I decided to hyper focus on vape.

15:55SpeakerAnd so been doing vape full time for the past six or seven years. We do have another brand in the market for vape. It's called Acera. So Acera is designed to My goal with Acera was to make a vape that tasted as good as a joint because I've been a joint smoker my whole life. Acera is now very entrenched in the Canadian marketplace. We've got some big brands doing a lot of success with Acera.

16:27SpeakerAnd it was finally time for us to lend attention to our other house brand, Stellar J's. And Stellar J's is for pre-rolls. Yet, I didn't want to just do every regular pre-roll like every other pre-roll in the market. So I've been searching for a way to make pre-rolls unique or make them different or better or, you know, advance the pre-roll category somehow. And lo and behold, about nine months ago, Pureflow came across my desk and I immediately saw that this was something different.

17:06SpeakerIt was, in my opinion, an advancement of the pre-roll category. And very happy to be launching the Pure Flow story here with you today, Marcus. And next week, we're going to be out in Toronto at the Grow Up Conference. We're doing a big booth out there. And that's going to be the official launch of Pure Flow in Canada. We do have a couple dozen samples out across the country right now.

17:33SpeakerAnd some of the initial feedback from various LPs has been quite astounding, which is really nice because, yeah, I went pretty hard into this Pure Flow Avenue. And like you, Marcus, I'm in my home office and I'm going to be rolling up a Pure Flow on my little Wu-Tang tray here pretty quick.

17:54BubblemanOh, Wu-Tang is for the children. It's for the children, my friend.

17:58SpeakerI'm just coming off a... A two-week abstination. I've been sick, so I've had a two-week tolerance break, so I'm planning to get some good feelings on my first PureFlow here this morning. So on that note, thank you for listening to my intro, and thanks again for hosting us, Marcus.

18:17BubblemanYeah, dude. Thanks, Kyle. Always, always a pleasure. I've known Kyle for quite a while. We've, we both have wives named Charlene. For any of you that want an Easter egg of the Kyle and Mark relationship, there's not a lot of Charlene's out there in the world. So the fact that we both found one is pretty cool. I've been with mine for 37 years. I'm pretty sure you've been with yours for a while too.

18:37SpeakerIt's true. It's true. And That was one of the things that I think brought us closer together, Marcus. I remember we did that double date last year in Vancouver. Yeah. Or was that the year before? Time goes by quick. But we met at a local restaurant, had a double date with our Charlene's, and we both had nearly front row tickets to see the Marley Brothers at the Queenie, Damien and Stephen Marley.

19:01SpeakerAnd what a show that was. That was awesome. What a great night. Incredible, for sure. And sorry about leaving that high tea in your truck.

19:09BubblemanOh, don't worry about that. That was well enjoyed. That was well enjoyed. Why don't we hear from Adam now?

19:19SpeakerSure. Well, first of all, Marcus, thank you for having me here. It means a lot to be on your show. You know, I've been...

19:32SpeakerIn my family, my family has been growing, cultivating, selling weed for a very long time. Hash has been a big part of our day. I've got a saying, you can't smoke hash all day if you don't start in the morning. But what's cool is I've got some of the original bubble bags.

19:56SpeakerMarcus, I still have some of your original bubble bags that, you know, really, again, got me, my family into sort of washing hash, which is really at this point more fun than anything. And I don't really like trimming. I love growing weed, don't really like trimming weed. So it all ends up in the wash. But... But just a little bit about me. So I've been an advocate for the space for a very long time, probably since 2014.

20:32SpeakerI actually wrote a thesis in university before cannabis was legalized for the sociological impacts of the criminalization of cannabis in Canada. So very well versed on the history. Have always understood that the legalization was a necessity and and and It was an inevitability more than anything. So I've been an advocate. I was a volunteer in school with the CSSDP, which was the Canadian Students for Sensible Drug Policy.

21:11SpeakerVolunteered with LeafTO in Toronto as pot started to become legal, as well as Woman Grow. I worked at a dispensary in 2015 before the big influx of dispensaries. So back, say, before people were taking advantage and it was really just a medical space.

21:32SpeakerAnd then, you know, worked in media, used to work for a company called Civilized, which you may have heard of. It's an older brand. Really, it all kind of amalgamated to the beginning of our company, which started in 2021 called Pinners. And Pinners was a really early stage brand. This was a product that was really born out of COVID when we identified that

22:04SpeakerAll of these individual use size and not sharing joints, there was going to be a real market for. And the only thing that was really there were these short stubby joints, which burned really hot, or these ready can readies, You know, dominated the market because convenience was really what they were selling. It wasn't necessarily, you know, the quality of the flour or the quality of the manufacturing or anything like that because they were using cigarette paper and it created this flavor, let's call it a flavorless experience because I'm sure everybody on here knows that, you know, the terpenes and the cannabinoids are really what drives that experience, whether it's in one direction or the other.

22:49SpeakerSo we identified that there was an opportunity in the market. And the other piece was that pre-rolls were an afterthought. And this has been the case since before legalization. Pre-rolls are really a product of recreational legalization. Before, they were giveaways. right you you were giving it you were you were giving away a joint with every ounce you sold or you gave someone a sample so they would come back and buy you know a quarter an ounce or whatever it was and typically it was your trim it was your bottom of the bag whatever whatever it was so um

23:27SpeakerFor pinners, because we're not a cultivator and all we did was manufacture joints, it wasn't an afterthought, it was our only thought. And we really just kept doubling down on manufacturing. And interesting that we had talked, Creed, you'd mentioned before about the grind size. Pinners was a custom designed cone with the smallest opening diameter that there is for a pre-roll cone. The reason that we couldn't work with a co-manufacturer who had all these automation or knock box or whatever is because our goal was to maximize the grind size, which could go into this tiny little cone.

24:08SpeakerAnd we didn't find any external partner to be able to help us manufacture. So the only option was to sort of get into the game and start to do it ourself. And for the last five years, we've been refining our craft. We've become sort of experts in our own space. And Pinners now is, we've put a pin in Pinners because we've delisted all of our brands as we moved in and became our own licensed producer.

24:38SpeakerAnd now what we do is we've doubled down on our manufacturing to really bring our expertise to our customers and bring it to the market in a way that is meaningful for them. And really, it's pretty incredible. The feedback that we've gotten is tremendous. So now we've got our company is called Joint Craft. We're located in Vaughan, Ontario. When we moved in, we took over the former CanTrust facility, which is a cool bit of history.

25:09SpeakerSo and all of our walls are real. We don't have any of that.

25:14BubblemanYou're not rocking any unlicensed rooms? I'm pretty sure you're allowed to in that building.

25:18SpeakerNo, that was the other facility. We got the real one.

25:21BubblemanYou know what's neat about that facility is that that was the realization that when you get in trouble in legal cannabis, it ain't the same as getting in trouble in illegal cannabis.

25:31SpeakerYou're you've got that right. You've got that right. But what but what it did do is that I believe that that that can trust that that moment was that was the catalyst for what burst the bubble in cannabis, because what it did do is it sent a message to the shareholders and the investors of the industry that Maybe not everybody's as trustworthy as, you know, as we once thought.

25:53SpeakerSo it's an interesting bit of history. And, you know, I would welcome all of you guys to come for a tour, come for a visit, because there are little tidbits around the building that we will never do away with that are You know, reminders of our history and keep us grounded in sort of reality. But Joint Craft has done incredible things. We've got an incredible team. We've got a proprietary manufacturing solution, which allows us once again to maximize the grind size, ensure that we have a consistent pack and a proper dense pack all the way through.

26:33SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

26:51SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

27:08SpeakerI did mention this to Kyle. I will have to peel off for like an hour or so because I am getting married and it's my fiance's bridal party today. And I need to go. Thank you so much. And I need to go crash the party with some flowers that are not infused.

27:29BubblemanAnd for a second, I thought you were hardcore. I was like, listen, I'm getting married. I got to split for an hour. I'll be back after I get married and we'll continue the show.

27:38SpeakerI was like, dude, if you've got, you know, I'll let you know when my wedding is. And if you got a podcast on that date, maybe I'll pop in for a little bit.

27:48KyleThat's amazing, dude.

27:50SpeakerBut really, guys, I'm super excited to be here. I'm super excited to talk pre-rolls. It's a really excellent panel. It's a privilege to once again be on your show here. And, you know, again, you'll see me peel off probably shortly for about an hour or so, but I will be back. And really, thank you for your time and look forward to getting into it. Thank you, Adam.

28:17SpeakerAnd feel free to smoke another Pure Flow before you get back. I will. And they are, you know what? They're very interesting. And I just texted you this, but I was expecting more Scooby snacks than I got. So what? Pardon me? Because it's hollow. Well, because when you look at the when you look at the bottom hole, the bottom diameter, it looks quite large. But if you if you look in there, it's it's very different.

28:50SpeakerSo I don't know if it's a taper or or not, but it is it is an inverse cone in the cone. So the whole facing the biomass is much smaller, but you were expecting things to fall through. Well, I just, when I initially looked at it, I said, well, this is, you know, how does this solve that problem? And that inverse taper is key. And especially with like quality weed, and we talked about this for what Pureflow is trying to do is trying to appeal to sort of the premium area of the marketplace.

29:26SpeakerAnd Um, when you're talking about putting premium flour that has the right sort of sort of moisture content, you're looking at like north of 12%. Um, this is not going to turn into dust and it's going to lend itself very well to a cone like this. So, um, Kudos to you and for the team at FTL and at Peerflow for bringing this to the market because I think that everybody's looking for what, I'm sure we'll talk about it, the charcoal filter or the this filter or the that filter.

29:56SpeakerI think that this really brings an interesting product to the conversation.

30:02BubblemanDude, you know a Chad came up with the charcoal filter. He's like, why don't we use this charcoal filter? All it's doing is robbing all the flavors, all the volatile organic compounds will get stuck in here. They'll be able to breathe in a smooth, tasteless smoke. Right?

30:18SpeakerIt's the same guys who are asking for weed that doesn't smell. Thank you for joining us.

30:44BubblemanThank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

31:12BubblemanThe way it retains and releases heat is going to decide how well it destroys or preserves the volatile organic compounds in DAB culture.

31:22KyleI think I can speak to this a little bit. Sorry, if I may. I think what I do understand about the The corporate chads that are trying to create these filters, you know, that rob the volatile compounds from the cannabis. I think their ideology is that they're trying to create a replicatable experience, something that is always the same across every aspect of it. And that's what is a detriment to like their product design method, you know.

31:52KyleThey're trying to create a regulated experience, a homogenized experience across every single joint or cigarette that you pull out of the pack.

32:02SpeakerI just want to add in real quick. Sorry, I'm not trying to say anything. If you think about from the Chad's perspective, that's exactly what they want. That's exactly what they want. They want to bring this into a very tight little bubble that they can keep it in. And if you know cannabis as well as I do, there is so many different flavor profiles, so many different things and avenues to go down that if you do try to keep it in that, if you don't keep it in that flavor profile, you'll never be able to take control.

32:32SpeakerAnd that's what the Chad's want. That's why cannabis will never die, in my opinion. It will never die. And it's because as much as the guys who believe, listen, guys, cannabis is a commodity. It is. It 100% is. But the reality is the guys who think that they're going to follow the typical CPG model, those are the guys who don't, they don't get it. They don't understand the plant.

33:04SpeakerThey don't understand the product. And they're trying to make, to your point, make something fit into a box that just won't fit.

33:15KyleThe ignorance of bad.

33:16SpeakerSo let's go on with the intros. Aaron, really appreciate you jumping on with us. I actually called Aaron like I think 48 hours ago after you told me you didn't have a second guest for us, Adam. I went through my Sorry. Rolodex in my brain and I came up with, hey, I should call Aaron. He's a cool guy from America. And most of us are Canadian on this panel today, Aaron, but maybe you could give us a little bit of your background and And yeah, yeah, absolutely.

33:48SpeakerBoy, it's a lot. I'm going to try and condense it for you guys. So I started in cannabis. I mean, I was growing plants when I was 16, but but I really started heavily in cannabis probably around 2006 to 2006, maybe 2007 in California. That's where like the it was kind of the medical Wild West back then. Uh, to put it very loosely, I was the guy that, uh, if you had a garage, I had some lights.

34:22SpeakerWe should do something together. You know, I was that guy. Um, and at that time it was, like I said, the wild west. I mean, I was taking, I was taking duffel bags full of, of cannabis into a medical, uh, dispensary and coming out with cash. It was. The greatest time of my young life. But from there, I actually used the money and I used a decent amount of that money to put myself through different various schools, engineering schools.

34:52SpeakerAnd I moved on to pharmaceutical manufacturing and the equipment in there. And I was designing clean rooms and manufacturing rooms for for Thank you for watching.

35:28SpeakerThere was a lot of slowdown on manufacturing and I moved into the cannabis area. The same type of knowledge I had through already growing and going through every different type of cannabis product and then doing pharmaceutical manufacturing. Really kind of married together in the pandemic era. And I came back out and I kind of started focusing on this. And I ended up getting hooked up with two different companies.

36:03SpeakerOne company that was making pre-rolls. They were doing the tarantula style. Do you guys, are you guys familiar with that? What's the tarantula style? So that maybe is a California term, but essentially what it is is the infused pre-roll where it's painted on the outside with distillate and rolled in Keith. I originally, they were called tarantulas. A lot of people in California just adopted that term. I recently heard people in New Jersey using that same term for them.

36:36SpeakerBut people call them jeeters. People call them everything because of where they first seen them. But yes, that's what I got hooked up with there. We were using a knockbox and... Thank you for watching.

37:10SpeakerWe're making a pre-roll, you know? So we developed in-house machines for ourselves. That's how my current company, Hummingbird, was born. In the early days of that, to keep that afloat with a few other people, I ended up working for a co-manufacturer. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

37:58Speakerdoubling back and moving into them and now here i am their main engineer and uh salesperson so i've done everything with pre-rolls i've done everything with cannabis and uh yeah it's it's fun to be on a panel with you guys uh having so much knowledge in one place that's awesome man i really look forward to diving into this conversation of infusion and sops and all the different absolutely yeah we've got some time today so What's the tagline for Hummingbird, Aaron?

38:29SpeakerIs it spin it to win it? So honestly, the tagline for us is ask us about the perfect pre-roll. Because honestly, you know, packing a pre-roll is different than rolling. And you guys all know that. You know, there's a different art form to do it.

38:48BubblemanAnd there's different people smoking them, too. Absolutely. Let's talk about that. They are completely different people who roll and smoke hand roll joints than who smoke pre-roll joints. And I would say that the people in the hand roll world are have a higher level of distinguishing what premium or top quality of anything actually is, which makes it easier because this larger group of people, which I get a ton of people are not stoked on this new group of people who are now making up the cannabis users group.

39:21BubblemanWe used to be a much smaller group and some of us have lost sight that now this, it's why pre-rolls are so popular, like obviously, because the majority of people who want to smoke cannabis nowadays, they like the vape pen, they like the pre-roll joint, you know, that's why I created Hash Hits, same idea as Adam, got to create, went from the pure hash joint, I got to break this up into into servings now.

39:43BubblemanIt's COVID. People can't share who the fuck wants to smoke a full gram of hash other than me. Yeah. And Adam in one shot. Well, not enough people. And so I get that. But yeah, to continue, please, Aaron, I was just kind of chiming in that. Oh, I love that.

39:59SpeakerI love that. I'd love to get into my analogy for for how I think Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

40:29SpeakerCould you tell us a little bit about your experience in cannabis and life and weed? Yeah, I don't have as much experience as you guys. Like I started partaking in cannabis when it became legal. I didn't, I don't have any like crazy wild west illegal weed storage. I wish I did. Like the most dangerous thing I did was smoke weed in high school when it was not legal yet.

40:56SpeakerBut that's, Yeah, everything, everything that I know about cannabis I learned after it was legalized. Yeah, I work for ANC Solutions. I've been with the company for five years now. So like, I saw it like become from the very, very start, when you're like, ordering all the Everything really, everything needed to be figured out. And then, yeah, I just grew with the company, started in production and now I'm part of the quality assurance team.

41:34SpeakerSo I'm more like a less hands-on with the kind of stuff now. Still keeping all the knowledge in my head, still needed on a day-to-day basis for work. So it was very helpful to be in production for so long. So I can learn a lot of things for, My job, yeah, I'm not too educated on the scientific parts of it, but I do have a lot of knowledge on free rolls, because that's like the number one product for ANC Solutions.

42:08SpeakerLike we make a lot of free rolls. Well, I think we make a lot of free rolls, but when Adam said you, was it Adam? You said you were making four to five million free rolls a month. I'm like, oh, maybe it's, It's okay. Listen, everybody, listen, there's a lot of white space here. And, you know, just to touch on what Marcus said before about the new sort of era of consumer.

42:36SpeakerListen, guys, let's be real. Any new entrants who are coming into this space, 98% of them are never going to learn how to roll a joint. That's, that's, that is, that is, we are all here skating to where the puck is going and our marketplace is not getting any smaller. So there's lots of room and ANC's got a wonderful history too. I mean, you guys were the first, really the first company to put out a rosin infused joint, which at the time was, was like, uh, Unheard of because people, where everybody was just starting to wrap their head around what dry infusion meant, you guys had already started to play with wet infusion and get some things going, which was a really interesting area of the market, which now we're seeing with Jeters and GA and all these other guys who are really dominating the space.

43:31SpeakerA lot of innovation for sure, yeah. ANC has had a lot of, You know, trying new things, trying new ideas, try this pre-roll, try that. I really, I just learned that I call them Keith Kohler joins, but they're actually called tarantulas. I like that name way better. That is way cooler than lame Keith Kohler. Maybe I'll suggest it to my team. Can we start calling them tarantulas?

44:01SpeakerIt's way shorter to write too. We called them Fukashimas. You know, for those who know, you know, we call them Fukushima pre-rolls. It was a pre-legalization brand. And if you're watching, I know that you're, you know, looking at what's going on here. But that was, listen, before legalization, at least in Toronto, there were these pre-rolls that were, It was all about pairing the infusion with the flower, with the coating.

44:33SpeakerYou know, you saw a snake around the edge, you saw it rolled in keef, and it was like, you know, you smoked it and you went to space because the shit didn't exist. You know, the 40, 50, 60% stuff. That's it, so. You're going to start an argument in the comments from people from California and people from Canada on where it came first. Tarantula, you know, back and forth.

45:00SpeakerI'll tell you something. Now they're becoming standards, which is crazy. Which is insane. Absolutely insane. Insane. I think that that's, you know, it's a reflection of what the cannabis consumer wants, because there's still the number one question when a customer steps into the dispensary is what's the highest potency for lowest price? Yeah, but you know what? But it's changing. It's changing. But that's that's the number one question.

45:28SpeakerWell, also, what they want is convenience. And that's why they're buying pre-rolls or ice cards. And that's why they're buying vape cards. Right. Like you said, most of these new consumers, their first introduction to extracts is going to be likely from an infused pre-roll or from a vape cart, right?

45:50Collin PalmerWell, it's your, you know, it's the way that people and hello, everyone. Nice to meet you.

45:55KyleNice to see everybody.

45:57Collin PalmerYou know, the thing, there's been a lot of really great comments made, you know, thus far. And I feel like one of the things that Marcus was touching on that I feel like is important to highlight is that Most people that are going to buy flour need an entry point. And to get to that 3.5 gram jar at 55 plus dollars is a very hard conversation unless they can try it.

46:25Collin PalmerAnd that's really what it comes down to. I came up in an era where there was no testing. It was you show up, you put your nose in the bag, you looked at it, you felt like you made the right decision based on the parameters that you thought were based on quality, which was how it looked, smelled, felt in your hand, and off you went. And now we have a totally different vernacular that we're trying to fit within And some of these ideologies don't kind of follow with it.

46:56Collin PalmerSo, you know, to your point, the snake around the joint, we're looking for high tack. But really what someone's really screaming out loud inside to the bud tender, whoever they're talking to, is I want an experience that's great. And that's really like cut away all the stuff. That's what I hear. And and when I hear like. I want the highest tack and I want all this stuff.

47:19Collin PalmerIt's it's really it's the disguise. It's like it's it's trying to fit within a box that they feel like they need to ask these types of questions around. And it's not even about that. It's just about the experience. And I find often from just dealing with tons of consumers on a daily basis. You know, everyone has a different version of that. So I think a pre-roll in an infused pre-roll allows people to kind of get to that place that they're looking for from an experiential point of view.

47:48Collin PalmerAnd sure, you want to talk about numbers. That's fine. But that's a COA that happened in one point in time along the lifecycle of that flower or that said product. And most likely, if you tested that today, it's going to be different. And I don't know how anyone hangs their hat on any of these numbers, to be honest.

48:05BubblemanHow about this? How about we take it a step further, Colin? Yeah. Do you think that that COA is anything compared to what you're inhaling once you burn and vaporize the material, inhale it into your lungs? It's totally not the same COA at all. I guarantee you're probably not getting anything the same as the COA. Which is the neat thing that we've locked into this COA so hardcore.

48:27BubblemanI got into this when, you know, God bless Doug. Dougie's just been hilariously trolling the Rosin community. and forth it's just been hilarious personally i thought it was funny um but he had mentioned um oh it was shout out dougie dude he's he's my he's my guy yeah i'm sure we'll get him on here eventually to uh to be ridiculous i don't want to lose my train of thought though because i had a good point i wanted to make based on what you had just said in regards to doug well while you're finding that i just want to say colin i never thought about someone buying an eight

49:01SpeakerAs a barrier, because when I came up, like an eighth was the smallest amount you could buy. That's all we knew.

49:08Collin PalmerIt's all we knew.

49:10SpeakerAn eighth also never cost 60 bucks. Someone walking into a store, they don't just have to buy the eighth if it's their first time. Now they need a grinder. Now they need rollies. Now they need a tray. And they also need to know what to do. And so I never thought about it like that of like, oh, wow, an eighth could be intimidating. But a pre-roll at five or ten bucks is something easy.

49:35SpeakerNow you just need a lighter. But I don't know if you found your thought, Marcus. Sorry.

49:39Collin PalmerNo, I think I found it for him. So we were talking about COAs, Marcus, and you were getting really into COAs. We're all sort of guilty of being into COAs because I know I was too. I just thought this idea that, oh my God, I had this glimpse into the future that no one else has.

49:55BubblemanYou reminded me of exactly the point I was going to make, which was a BHO guy was upset with a rosin guy. And he was like, listen, like our shit is minus 40 degrees. Your shit is plus 160. We win. We have the most volatile organic compounds. And then he went in very eloquently and scientifically on how, you know, because you're using this 160 degrees, you're totally altering the compounds in every way.

50:21BubblemanSo I flipped it back on him and I said, well, How are you inhaling this product? And he was like, I'm dabbing it. I'm like, oh, at what temperature? Are you dabbing it hotter than 160 degrees? And then I just copy and pasted his words and said, because you know what, 160 degrees. And then I wrote all of the things that he wrote in regards to how terrible that heat was.

50:46BubblemanAnd then I suggested, I hope you're not dabbing at a warmer temperature than 160 degrees. Like God forbid, 450. Oh my goodness. You must just be destroying all of those volatile organic compounds that you preserved with that minus 40 degrees Celsius temperature. Anyway, I thought it was funny. We're just all like, it's the more you go ahead.

51:08Collin PalmerNo, it's just interesting because like when you guys you're saying that I was thinking about the analogy of fresh squeezed orange juice and organic oranges versus conventional ground oranges and how, you know, all these things and they're all very, you know, they can get very kind of closely related and you kind of get in this deep rabbit hole of this is better than that or that's different than this.

51:27Collin PalmerAt the end of the day, it all produces an end product that some people really favor over others. And the fact that we have it is awesome. And that's really at the end of the conversation for me. It's not about better or worse at that point because there's levels to both sides of that. There's terrible BHO, there's great BHO, there's terrible rosin, and there's also terrible, you know, great rosin.

51:50SpeakerI think just to, because I'm going to say this last and then I'm going to peel off for a bit, but just to bring that thought into the pre-roll discussion, you know, there's, what I've learned in this conversation Sort of in this experience of the last five years and what's become a guiding philosophy for us is You know, there's going to be weed of various potencies, of various flavor types, of various bud structures, and people are going to have different preferences.

52:21SpeakerAnd, you know, regardless of if someone's asking for the highest potency at the lowest price or the loudest flavor or the most CBD or whatever it is, at the end of the day, what our job as pre-roll manufacturers is, is to make a consistent smoking experience From start to finish. So whether or not it is the most premium quads, you know, that's, you know, the sticky icky, or you've got some outdoor flour that's been, you know, you've added distillate and flavors into it, that smoking experience should be the same.

52:59SpeakerAnd if you're a consumer, you're paying your hard-earned money for a joint, you know, the cherry shouldn't fall off, the joint shouldn't run, the joint shouldn't clog. Doesn't matter if the quality of the flower, the only thing that should change in the joint is the quality of the inputs. How it's consumed, how it's smoked, That should be fixed. And that's, you know, I think that that's really what probably all of us here believe and all of us here are here to talk about, which is how do we get consistency in this product that has so much variability in its inputs?

53:38SpeakerRight? And how do we improve? You know, we're a co-manufacturer. Our customers are the brands, are the licensed producers, are the guys who are out there, you know, with their feet on the street. How do we make them and their customers happy? Because at the end of the day, what we're all doing and what is really cool because, you know, Call me crazy, but I think we're, all of us here are having a real impact on the market, having a genuine impact on the consumer because why does anybody smoke a joint or why does anybody smoke weed at all, right?

54:12SpeakerMaybe they're depressed, maybe they're excited, maybe they're celebrating something, maybe they're dealing with anxiety, maybe they're dealing with physical pain, maybe they're dealing with Thank you for joining us.

54:32SpeakerAs creators of these products, we're creating those moments for those people. And it gives me great pride to know that we're creating 5 million moments a month for different consumers across Canada. That's a weight we at Joint Craft carry You know, very close to our heart. So creating that consistent experience where when you spend your $5 or $10 on a joint, that experience of consuming that product has no negativity and what you bought is what you get.

55:12SpeakerThat's what drives us. So anyway. Nice you said, Adam. I'm going to say for the first few years I never made it into the stores because I guess I didn't need to or whatever but the first couple times I shopped at a store it was generally to buy joints because I was on a camping trip and oh my god I forgot my weed box and I don't want to buy another grinder and another tray so I was buying pre-rolls and my first couple experiences buying pre-rolls I was just saying oh my god like I remember I opened one box and it wasn't twisted properly and half the joint was in the box and Limp Crutches and Blues Rolls.

55:48SpeakerAnd I was just like, wow, there's a lot of bad qualities going back a couple of years. But Marcus, I'm going to say something. A lot of people told me, how are you going to go on a podcast for four hours? And I see why you need four hours now, because we're an hour in. We haven't even finished the intros, bro. I'm going to stop talking so you guys will have lots more time.

56:11SpeakerWe got Robbie, Creed and Colin. Still for intros, if you guys don't mind. Yeah, I'll go next. Thank you. So, Robbie Fisher, coming to you from my basement office here in Calgary. I was born and raised in Winnipeg, Manitoba, like Marcus, but moved here right when I was graduating high school in 1999.

56:40SpeakerWhen I first got into working in cannabis, it was almost a decade ago now. I used to work in the music industry. I used to throw nightclub events in the electronic music industry. And we used to sell all of our tickets at the head shops back in the day. And so we were very connected to the That culture side of the cannabis pre-legalization where we were really close with a lot of the biggest head shops in Calgary.

57:19SpeakerAnd that's where we sold all our tickets through. And we always kind of dreamed of, oh man, one day we should open up our own head shop. When legalization happens, we should have our own dispensary. These are some of the dreams that we had way back when. Eventually, again, before legalization, we did realize our first dream and opened up a head shop selling glass in Calgary. And, you know, this is a total full circle moment and event in my cannabis career, for sure, because back then when, you know, our store was open seven days a week, every Sunday, just in the background, we would have hash church going on.

57:58SpeakerSo it's really cool that I've now come to a point where I'm a guest on this show. So I feel very humbled and I appreciate the invite, Kyle, and thanks for having us, Marcus. But yeah, so that was kind of my introduction into working in cannabis. And then when COVID happened and the music stopped, that's when I made the full shift into a full-time career in cannabis and I got a job working for Simply Solventless.

58:32SpeakerAnd so that was five years ago. When we started, we were working in Sundial's original facility and we were working under their umbrella of licenses. So we didn't even have our own license. And we were just, you know, doing solventless extracts. Essentially, we were, you know, collecting dry stuff. So we were spinning cannabis material using Alchemist 420s. And collecting dry sift. And we were washing fresh frozen material that had piled up across the country.

59:10SpeakerThere was a lot of fresh frozen material that people were growing it with the, you know, feel the dreams type of mentality. And so we saw a bit of a hole or a gap there. So we came in heavy with, you know, three low temp ospreys and we started Helping these people out who had this problem of all this fresh frozen cannabis that they had grown and no one to sell it to or nothing to do with it.

59:39SpeakerSo that's where we started. And, you know, over time we started launching our in-house brands and then we ended up having our merger with A&C. We originally were doing pre-rolls in-house when we started our Our in-house brands, we were doing the live raws and infused pre-rolls, like you're saying. And eventually we started using ANC because it was so difficult and so time consuming. And, you know, we tried different things.

1:00:16SpeakerWe tried knock boxes. We tried the, I think, STM rocket box, you know. But, you know, when you start talking about the differences of products, Real commercial production versus just like rolling joints at home. You know, I started, I'm like you, Marcus, I don't really consume a lot of cannabis by smoking anymore. I haven't for, you know, almost 30 years myself. But on occasion, when I still do, I like it to be an enjoyable experience.

1:00:46SpeakerI've become way more of a cannabis snob when it comes to smoking a joint. So, Unless it's really exciting to me because it's something different I haven't tried before. Something exotic or something that I've longed for that I've missed that I tried once upon a time way back when and I can't seem to find anymore. That's kind of one of the cool mystiques or whatever about my cannabis experience anyways.

1:01:14SpeakerIt's just all the different strains and flavors and experiences that come from that. But yeah. You know, I started my day with just a couple pinners that were rolled by one of my best friends who's also named Robbie. To me, I was like, you know, I rolled a lot of joints when I was smoking joints, but it's been so long. When I first got invited to this show, the first thing I did is I called my friend Robbie.

1:01:38SpeakerI said, Robbie, you gotta roll a couple joints for me. So that's what I started my morning with is a couple hand rolled straight pinners. Adam, that was cool hearing Adam's story. I didn't realize that Joint Craft was the same group that started Pinners. So that was cool to hear that sort of evolution of their journey. But again, going back to commercial production, the only joints that we ever even attempted to roll at SSC were combs.

1:02:12SpeakerAnd that's one of the big differences when we start talking about commercial production. Joints is the straight joint versus the cone. And in our path or journey, we had seen similar style cones or whatever to these, but actually not in the cone shape, just straight ones. And again, if you're using You know, when we had the rocket box, the worst thing about the rocket box, no offense to the people that make the rocket box, it's a great machine for the right purposes or whatever.

1:02:51SpeakerBut one of our biggest problems with the rocket box was, was the waste. And the destruction that we had to throw away, right?

1:02:58Collin PalmerWorst design I've ever seen in all of cannabis, man. I'll be real. SDM, you guys come at me, whatever you want to do. But I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in waste just seeing the material drop through to the bottom to hit your metal particulate panel that then put metal into the material. It's like... Get a knockbox.

1:03:21BubblemanListen, I'm not even going to lie. When he mentioned the Alchemist 420, which are these square tumblers, also the worst design in the history of cannabis. And I don't give a fuck. I had six of them. I can say this exactly.

1:03:36Collin PalmerI agree.

1:03:37BubblemanI feel bad because we recently just sold one on Craigslist and I felt bad of the guy I was giving it to.

1:04:03BubblemanYou know, yeah, they're a nightmare for a federally regulated system. They really are. If you're in the black or gray market and you could just throw material into that thing. And first of all, the square is very rough and tough. You're tumbling in a way that is extremely aggressive to the material because of the way it's falling on these sharp 90 degree angles, which also makes it simultaneously the hardest machine to clean in the game.

1:04:31BubblemanLike, it's like the amount of time that you have to spend cleaning this machine. It's like, dude, I'm telling you for a fact, you could literally, I could come into your facility and make hash faster. I could come into your facility and make hash faster with an eight foot by four foot screen that I lay on the floor. I throw material down and I rake it. I can make four kilos every 10 minutes.

1:04:55BubblemanPeople are always blown away. Do you know what people paid for those machines? The screens weren't big enough.

1:05:19Bubblemanholes weren't big enough so you were also throwing away a ton of your material because back in the day when people made dry sift they they weighed what they got and they counted that as their yield what they did not do was look at it with a microscope and realize that their 20 yield of material was a two percent yield of heads which is you know you gotta really You want to use a 200 to a 250 micron screen, pull a lot of material and then clean it.

1:05:48BubblemanAnd then you've got a bigger initial yield of heads, which is, you know, there's still people using 150 and 160 screens for dry sifting.

1:05:58Speaker180, yeah. But, but, but... No bucks. Different, you know, my dad always taught me use the right tool for the job, right? And there's, there's different, Jobs out there for different intended purposes, right? There's a lot of people who are trying to make The cheapest tarantula they can make and put out onto the market, right? Of course, because they want to save the most money for all the freaking juice.

1:06:23SpeakerBut that doesn't mean they want to waste material.

1:06:26BubblemanIf they were shown, hey, I can show you how to get way more material and it won't cost you any more money. I can promise you each and every one of those people, because they're so focused on getting the cheapest, which means they want to make the most. They're going to listen every time. People just didn't know when they bought those Alchemist 420s, you know, in regards to actually...

1:06:44BubblemanAnd they sold it perfect because it was all about like selling it into the federally legal, right? They created an all stainless. That's the thing.

1:06:53Collin PalmerIt was the stainless, dude. That's what got us all. We all got it on the stainless. They're like, oh, stainless.

1:06:59BubblemanIn the meantime, I still use resonators in the federally legal market as well as bubble bags, not stainless steel screens. And guess what? They work great. They work just fine. Yeah. You don't need to have stainless.

1:07:13SpeakerLet's hear an intro from Creed if we can. I would love to hear an intro from Creed. Then we got Colin right after that.

1:07:18BubblemanEven though I've known Creed quite a while, I still want to hear your intro, dude.

1:07:23KyleWow. Guys, damn. Fuck, so many tangents that I want to go off on just based on all the things we covered. First hash church experience, obviously, knowing Marcus. Since I was quite young, I've been in the cannabis space Probably since I was roughly 12 years old, in and out of the OG cannabis culture days alongside activists like Greg Williams, RIP, and Michelle Rainey and people like that.

1:07:58KyleMy parents were early Cannabis Cup judges and things like that. So I had access to some of the most exotic cultivars, you know, for the time when I was quite young, which led me to like quite a bit of Uh, cannabis science exposure. Um, I became a dedicated weed nerd pretty early and, uh, like so many of us here, I'm sure, um, I'm, you know, a pure product of prohibition.

1:08:27KyleUm, uh, I'm someone who became fascinated by the regulation and distribution and attempts to control the market. Started selling cannabis at a very early age. I know it was mentioned earlier, but from the golden days where you could walk into some of these unlicensed facilities with duffel bags and walk out with cash in your hands if the product was good. When it comes to extracts and things like that, that's really my specialty.

1:09:02KyleSome of my earliest experiences with separating resin were through mechanical separation, obviously through exposure to products like the bubble bags um from marcus uh big salute obviously quadruple og uh there um from that point on uh i had some of the earliest experience with closed loop systems uh through companies like iron fist based out of washington um and i'd say as early as 2009 2010 maybe i was you know experiencing uh

1:09:35Kylecommercial production with all stainless steel equipment we were running passively at the time this is way before we knew how to heat and cool these systems appropriately Um, uh, extraction basically was my main thing for the longest time. Uh, got me in a lot of trouble, a lot of trouble. And, uh, anyone who's, you know, uh, been in the lab a lot, um, understands the hazards, um, throughout my process of, uh, learning.

1:10:06KyleYou know, the ins and outs of this business. I was involved in many, you know, basically near-death experiences, trial by literal fire, I guess you could say. But I learned at an accelerated rate and ended up building a lot of labs during the, you know, pre-legalization period for various organized factions, so to speak. You know, which was a really, really cool experience, although it led me down the wrong path.

1:10:35KyleAnd eventually I was incarcerated for my involvement in these activities. And upon a small period and then a two and a half year house arrest sentence, I was immediately essentially headhunted by a publicly traded holdings company that had a lot of diversified cannabis interest. This was at Astro Labs, at which point we developed several brands, a lot of category leading brands in Canada, probably developed close to 90 or 100 SKUs, all centrally distributed with that one LP.

1:11:13KyleMoved on through recommendations from people like Kyle to the laboratory that I'm at now, which is Leaf Infusions. We have several brands under our umbrella, high key being our concentrate focused brand with some pre-rolls. We have Biggie's, which is a live resin and various minor cannabinoid infused gummies. And then we have a non-psychoactive brand called Trophy that's essentially all CBD focused.

1:11:42KyleI really like what we were getting into earlier about the end user experience of products like pre-rolls. It's such a subjective experience and such an interesting topic. uh there's so many variables when it comes to creating a regulated kind of end user experience and we're working with an organic input uh that changes you know by the season um anyways i think it's very interesting we approach it from kind of a deconstruction and reconstruction um ideology where we're trying to somehow perfect or redesign this plant that has millions of years of evolution on us Our quest for purity and isolation only leads to advanced rates of degradation and oxidation and things like that.

1:12:31KyleSo there's so many things we can get into. There were so many good points made earlier. I'm really stoked to be here. And yeah, that's just the cliff notes.

1:12:41SpeakerWell said, sir. I understand you're so excited for Hash Church. You could barely sleep last night. So I got to say you're pretty well spoken this morning.

1:12:50KyleThank you. This is the earliest I've been up in so long. I can't tell you. I host nightclubs on the weekends as an emcee, and I essentially came straight from the club to Hash Church. So, hallelujah.

1:13:06SpeakerSo, Creed, before we hear from Colin, I'm going to put you on the spot. Do you got a little flow for Pure Flow that'll off the top of the dome this morning?

1:13:16KyleOh, man, you can't. It's not a party trick. You can't just snap your fingers and tell me to jump. But this is something my hip hop is my life, my my absolute obsession outside of cannabis. It's a complete lifestyle for me. It's incorporated in every product that I design. It's the basis of all the brands that I develop. And for many years, I was a full time producer.

1:13:39KyleTuring rapper, trying to cover up my real profession, which was large scale extraction. But yeah, good times. I ended up getting banned from every single nightclub and live music venue in the country for attempting to conceal my income through music.

1:14:00KyleWhich led to some civil forfeiture and some seizure of assets. And this is a whole other story we could get into. But yeah, music is a big part of my life too. And yeah, thanks Kyle. Kyle's a hot spitter too. Kyle's got bars. He doesn't look like it, but this man can actually spit. It's crazy.

1:14:18SpeakerOh, dude. Well, if you get inspired later in the show about Pure Flow, you know, not to put you on the spot, but appreciate you being here, dude. Thanks for having me. Hats off to Creed and his whole team at Leaf Infusions. I just want to say when I first got my hands on Pureflow, I made a bold claim at MJBizCon. I said, I will sell this product in Q1.

1:14:44SpeakerAnd thank you, Creed, because you waited. You're like, I think you're down to two days to make a decision by the time I got you those samples.

1:14:54KyleYeah, so I've already commercialized the Pureflow, what Kyle's getting into here. I got my hands on it very, very early. Thank you, Kyle. And I'm always looking for, I mean, as a product designer and product developer, you just got to stay one step ahead of these other LPs because they will eat your lunch right off your table so quick. So Kyle and FTL, shout out FTLD, they've been right there with me in lockstep as I've designed products, you know, for so many brands in the industry.

1:15:25KyleI've used his Acera carts for a plethora of SKUs and I recommend it. I'm a huge advocate for that cartridge. But yeah, you got to stay one step ahead of the competition. This is the first kind of advancement I've seen, I guess you could say, for pre-roll technology. I am a religious dabber and an extract smoker. So for me to kind of fall in love with smoking joints again, it's, yeah, it's very interesting for me, but we tapped on, you know, a homogenized regulated experience when it comes to the consumer experience.

1:16:02KyleThis is the closest I've had to an incredibly consistent pre-roll experience. And I've done a lot of R&D when it comes to Pureflow. This is basically well over 100 roaches in this ashtray from the last month of product development. But yeah, I'll let the next man go.

1:16:21SpeakerWait a second, Creed. I just want to ask you, you said you got Pureflow in the market today. A couple of things there. I understand you concocted some kind of triple infusion into Pureflow. And I'd like to learn more about that triple infusion and what was the inspiration behind that. And then also, if you could touch upon the first couple drops, and I don't know, I was going to search Reddit last night to see if there's any market feedback on the products you put in the market, but I understand you're already in a couple provinces with PureFlow?

1:16:52KyleYeah, for sure. I have three SKUs on direct delivery in BC and we have two SKUs that just got picked up on Central at the OCS. So we're already rolling these cones in volume. They're going to hit the streets any day. When it comes to the infusions, I'll try and keep it really short and sweet. I'm a I'm a cannabis purist ideologically. I like to keep it true to strain.

1:17:18KyleI'm working with only fresh frozen inputs aside for the dry cannabis flower I put in my pre-rolls. I like to essentially acquire the cannabis flower in its fresh frozen state and extract it for its terpene fraction and its THCA. Then I use that dry cured flower of that same cultivar for the base of my pre-roll and I essentially just re-add the HTE and the DHCA from that cultivar.

1:17:43KyleSo it's just a deconstructed and reconstructed engineered product, I guess, is what you could refer to it as. This is just sheerly for the sake of stability and large scale commercialization, but it's pretty effective. And I think it produces a really, really good product. I wake up thinking about it and I want to smoke one as soon as I roll out of bed. So anyways, I love it.

1:18:08SpeakerYou just reminded me of a cool Keith interview I heard about 20 years ago, but he was talking about something else.

1:18:15KyleThat guy's weird. That guy's really weird.

1:18:17SpeakerDude, I saw him at a Fortune Sound Club in Chinatown there one year and You know, the club last call was 1.30 and it closes at 2. Motherfucker showed up at 2.30 in the morning, dude, to do his set. But on that note, Marcus, really appreciate again you inviting me and some of my colleagues on the show. And one of the panelists that hasn't introduced himself yet, I understand, is a regular on your program.

1:18:49SpeakerCollin Palmer. And I want to apologize, Colin. I shipped you those pure flow samples like 10 days ago. And I told my logistics manager, they must arrive by next Friday. But it looks to me like customs pinched them in Kentucky. But They should be at your house by Tuesday, Wednesday next week.

1:19:08Collin PalmerAll good, man. Well, it's good to be here. And yeah, for those that don't know me, I've been a lifelong cannabis user, started in the mid 90s. And I've been a cultivator since around 96, 97. And a hash maker since around 98, 99 is really when I first used Mila's setup. And then quickly, one of my great friends, Scott M, who Marcus actually knows, introduced me to the bubble bags.

1:19:42Collin PalmerAnd then I quickly, here we are. All these years later, I became fast friends with Marcus online and You know, it's been a journey, but I've been making, you know, cannabis products professionally, you know, since the inception of legalization. You know, selling them into the regulated markets. But even before then, you know, I ran delivery services and, you know, I've lived it, you know, as I call it, through the evolution of, you know, what we do.

1:20:16Collin PalmerI mean, which is, I think, create new ways to experience the plant, you know, and I think that's what is so awesome about Thank you so much for joining us.

1:20:50Collin PalmerAnd still do what I do. And, you know, I was an artist and a musician and someone that spent a lot of time making music in the studio. And I still am sitting in a studio right now. And it's no different.

1:21:05BubblemanWe haven't seen your studio in so long. You've had that background on your. I know. I miss your keyboards.

1:21:12Collin PalmerIt's the, you know, they're here. They're just, you know, they're here. I play them, you know, I make a lot of music, but. What does that background say? VLSNY. VLSNY, Vessel Life Science, New York.

1:21:27SpeakerAnd tell us about Vessel Life Sciences a little bit.

1:21:30Collin PalmerYeah, so Vessel is really the name of it. And Vessel Life Science is the overarching kind of the studio that Vessel is inside of. And Vessel is really just an innovation house for extraction and product development. And we have launched... As of 2025, we've launched our brand into the New York state and we've done flour, jarred flour so far, rosin and live rosin in AIOs, in all-in-ones.

1:22:01Collin PalmerSo that's really our main purpose in New York is to bring high quality extracts in the form of, you know, solvenous form to the market and living soil organic flour in jar form. So so that's kind of our focus in New York. But but yeah, I've been a formulator for quite a quite a long time. I mean, I'm I'm trying to dumb down my intro here because it's not the show isn't about me.

1:22:27Collin PalmerIt's about you guys. But but yeah, you know, I've been a formulator for quite a long time and it's something I spend a lot of time on just almost every day creating new products.

1:22:39SpeakerLet me ask you something, Colin. If you get those samples and you get inspired, could you see yourself formulating a living soil organic flower with some beautiful rosin and making an infused pre-roll?

1:22:51Collin PalmerYeah, actually, it's our next skew for us is launching the pre-roll because, you know, Getting into an expensive jar of flour is really difficult for consumers that are berated with false advertising and just bad products that they have to wade through and spend money on to ultimately find out that they don't want that product. So it's nice to offer flour we know is really high quality, really deliciously tasty all the way down to the last hit.

1:23:25Collin PalmerBut I'd like to offer that in a more convenient form. I think you guys were touching on it earlier is that maybe Marcus said it's like the consumers are looking for convenience. It's just it's just very human of people to want to do that, you know, so you can't blame people for one inconvenience. So it's up to us to make a better product so it actually gets to them the way that we want it to.

1:23:50Collin PalmerAnd I think that's the the hardest challenge I see is I didn't want to do a pre-roll. I'll be honest, I really didn't want to do one. And it's because of that reason, because it's very hard to put that on yourself as a producer. It's on me, man, to get that to the dispo, to make sure the dispo gets it to the consumer in the way that I know that joint should get to them.

1:24:12Collin PalmerSo that's, you know, we've done a good job of doing it with the jar. So what's that version for the pre-roll and the finished good? It's a hard thing to admit to yourself as a brand and a producer that it's on you, but it is. And I think that's most likely what's wrong with the market is that we're expecting people to buy stuff and we're not being intentional enough behind the product.

1:24:37Collin PalmerSo I'm excited to try the vessel, as I call it, that you're providing for us to put everything together and really You know, put it out into the end of the world. So we've been working on a pre-roll for like the past year, trying to get like the right container for it to go in. So it's fresh, you know, like how does that work? You know, like that's one of the biggest things that we as a team kind of been focusing on is how does this thing we see behind the scenes arrive to the consumer two months later?

1:25:10Collin PalmerLike, what does that look like? You know, because it sometimes happens, you know, these these stores, you'll sell in product, but they don't sell it in 30 days. They sell it in 60. You know, and that's, to me, we think about that every day. It's why if, you know, retail doors work with us, they always comment on why, like our packaging and how it's packaged in cases.

1:25:32Collin PalmerAnd we seal cases of 25. So you're not breaking a case of 50 open to then give one jar. It's really a Russian doll method, as we call it. So you're cracking a case at a time. You should be able to sell 25 of these, man. You know, so that's kind of the thought. And then we think about these things very intricately Because it affects the flower.

1:25:57Collin PalmerIt affects all the work that we've put in in the cultivation side of things to then have some dude go on Reddit and be like, that sucked. That's the last thing we need. Because it's hard. Most people don't realize there's so much blood, sweat, and tears put into this that the last thing I want is someone being like, that was subpar. Because that means there's somewhere along the way we didn't do something correctly.

1:26:23Collin PalmerAnd we, you know, we talk a lot about that. So it's a it's a lot of self reflection that we have, but we care about the products. And then when we make products, it's the same thing. You know, it's we're hash makers at heart. So detail is like kind of just everything to us, you know. So, yeah, we're we're doing doing it small. We're trying to keep it lean.

1:26:47Collin PalmerYou know, by design, I don't really want to be in 300 stores all at once. And it means that I can't touch 300 doors. So we're trying to take a different approach than we have in the past and other markets and, you know, just keep it tight and keep it real.

1:27:03KyleI think that's a super adequate explanation of the psychology of a modern product designer.

1:27:11SpeakerI can't thank you enough on that because one of my biggest gripes about the pre-roll world is the fact that what comes out of, you know, personally, what comes out of my machine, which I believe is perfect, then sits on a shelf for two months. And all of a sudden it's of lesser quality. And that's representative of everything down the line though. And I don't want it to reflect us.

1:27:39SpeakerSo yeah, no, I agree. Thank you so much because you're one of the very few people that are taking control of that situation.

1:27:47Collin PalmerYeah, we also think about like what, much like we had this conversation two weeks ago, like much like hash, not every varietal is right for making hash. I would say the same thing for a pre-roll. Once you grind certain pre-rolls up, that volatility is just ripped open and it's no longer there. But there are certain varietals that you can do that with that stay really, really intact.

1:28:14Collin PalmerAnd then you can put it into a conical tube or whatever and it stays fairly fresh. Right. And I don't know if anyone's ever thought about this before, but I am starting to kind of feel that there is perhaps varietals for specific skew builds. Right. That may not. Yeah. Like we want a papaya to go across everything, but like maybe there's a phenotype somewhere that can do that.

1:28:39Collin PalmerRight. I don't know.

1:28:42KyleIt's about the calyx size.

1:28:44Collin PalmerIt's me getting a little granular, but it's the kind of stuff I think about. We all are chasing these ideas of certain bucket flavors, right? If you want to call it that at this stage. But a consumer is never really getting down to that exact plant. And that's... Thank you for watching.

1:29:23Collin PalmerNo, that's great. Yeah. You know, flower.

1:29:25KyleGenetic selection is one of the most important aspects of this. It's like really it's fire in, fire out. You have to be selective. You can't just like, you know, not every cultivar is a dumper when you wash it. You know, not every cultivar has a good terp spectrum. And like I said, once you rip these things apart from each other, they become so unstable. And like you said, some cultivars have better natural defense mechanisms to like being deconstructed than others for sure.

1:29:53Collin PalmerYeah, like, you know, really gassy forward varietals seem to grind up well and hold their weight. You know, fruity, more, you know, with more alcohols or other analytes, things that are very fleeting, they're less so, right? So finding, you know, certain plants that can hold the characteristics of these compounds, I think would be a great focus for some brands out there.

1:30:18KyleAnd curing is a huge factor in stability as well. I mean, like post-harvest handling is incredibly important when it comes to stability. And like you said, these gassy forward, you know, varietals, you know, especially like the F2 Hindu cushions and, you know, things from the mountainous regions, these were drying on stock, you know, like being harvested after like, you know, massive flowering cycles and they became stable through this drying and curing process.

1:30:46KyleThis is like the kind of I think we have to replicate and consider when we're thinking about, yeah, using them as input.

1:30:53SpeakerPackaging is super important too, right?

1:30:56Collin PalmerYeah, packaging is super important, but it's so, you know, like I love packaging. Like I want to use these like, you know, I wanted to use these pot vacs for my flour, but they're just, you know, cost prohibitive, right? And there's, and honestly, after doing tests, like they didn't perform as well as other jars.

1:31:15SpeakerSome might say you're pulling a little bit of the turp out every time you... That is the one, yes. And so that's why, you know, like... Ross and Hazel say a Myron jar is still better or even, you know, I think Low Temp did that, um, terp, uh, retention test and they found that the Uline one ounce glass jar was like just about the best in terms of terp retention.

1:31:42SpeakerUm, But yeah, I mean, we can't blame the consumer for wanting consistency. And I'm going to go back a little bit.

1:31:50Collin PalmerI think our homies at 710 Labs have done a really good job. Like, this is a great, great idea. Like the idea. Is that a pre-roll? Yeah, this is a pre-roll. You know.

1:32:00SpeakerI still have one in here from them. Big shout out to Brad and those guys. And is that a viewing window on the top or is it a pop-back?

1:32:07Collin PalmerNo, this is a pop-back jar. Oh, okay. Which I think is really smart, you know, like, yo, I mean.

1:32:13SpeakerI haven't seen the tall ones like that. That's nice.

1:32:16Collin PalmerYou know, little two gram doink.

1:32:18SpeakerMarcus, you put out a video on ASTM hash making the other day with your gloves and those pop jars, like, If they do rob Terps, I'd pop it 100 times a day if I had one of those.

1:32:32Collin PalmerI don't know if it's robbing Terps. What we're really talking about is how well they can steal it.

1:32:39SpeakerPulling some air out, yes. I don't know if it's necessarily robbing Terps, but I do know it's creating a completely contained center after this. I mean, if whatever it robs, it's also, I would say, kind of pressurizing at the same time. Does that make sense?

1:32:58BubblemanI know that whatever you're smelling, you're not smoking. Correct. That's all I know. I told this in Boston Weekend. These dudes were walking around with baller jars and I'm just like, bro, like, why don't you just put half a gram in a jar and then you can open and let everyone smell that? Because right now everyone's just like, they're literally trying to like take all the terps from your baller jars.

1:33:20BubblemanI was just like, dude, like that flex is the incorrect flex. The flex is preserve them all for the dab and let people have like a little, Smell with their nose.

1:33:30SpeakerSo you're talking about they're walking around with like this much in a jar or something?

1:33:34BubblemanYeah, they were walking around with ounce jars, like big fucking jars and cracking them open and leaving them open for like and poking them. And I was just like, oh, like, I feel like we could do better. Like you are the same person complaining that there's no cold supply chain and you are literally like volatizing your volatiles. Just close that shit up. Let's smoke it.

1:33:56KyleThe rosin culture is a bit about the flex too. Like, let's be honest. These guys like, like, like real, like heady rosin boys. Like it's the flex is part of it. I remember like in the early days, everybody was like supreme, like bathing ape designer clothing. Like that was kind of the, the heady rosin boy flex, having big baller jars, designer drip.

1:34:15BubblemanYou can have big baller jars. Just don't crack them open a hundred times an hour.

1:34:19SpeakerThe best thing are the blue baller jars, in my opinion, the blue ballers. Am I the only one who enjoys the novelty of taking a dab and then taking the jar and smelling it right after I exhale my dab to get to enjoy some of the

1:34:42Bubblemanwhat i'm smelling not what i'm smoking in the same well what i do personally is i have a special pipe that's been designed for me where i can take the rosin dab but on the other side i'll take the flower or the resin and i'll vaporize it in a totally different way usually it's the flower and it usually it's the the hash you take a full melt rip of hash And then you take a vape.

1:35:08BubblemanI did it with Renee. That was my favorite cultivar to do it with. I'd rip the full mouth, but I wanted that. The full mouth wasn't the same as the flower. And, you know, very, very rarely does the smell line up to the taste, line up to these odor in the air after the taste. They are often all quite unique. Sometimes I like the smell in the air after the exhale more than I like the smell in the jar.

1:35:33BubblemanBut yeah, I think you're not the only one. I think lots of people are doing various versions of what you just mentioned, you know, trying to get those flavor profiles in as many ways as possible.

1:35:43Collin PalmerI'll do it for you right now just because I took a minute.

1:35:46BubblemanThere you go.

1:35:46SpeakerI was just going to say it goes back to what Colin was talking about just in terms of like not every cultivar is All of these things are best suited for every skew or format of consuming or extracting, right? Most strains aren't dumpers.

1:36:06Collin PalmerMost strains. Like apple fritter is a really good example. I'm not a huge apple fritter person. I just don't. It's amazing on the plant. It's an incredible plant to grow, but post dry cure. The experience is very just lackluster for me and comparatively to other things in our menu. Other people have said that it's one of their favorite things, which is really cool to hear because I just don't pick up on these like muted notes that it throws.

1:36:40Collin PalmerIt just isn't a varietal that I really truly love. I don't know. It's it's it's smell like I have it right here. It smells like apples. But when I when I smoke it, I don't get that deep apple note that I'm looking for on the nose. You know, but I'm you know, if someone else loves that, that's amazing. That's great. You know, there's no wrong is what I'm trying to get at.

1:37:04Collin PalmerYou know, it's just it's just what your preferences are.

1:37:07SpeakerBut even like, you know, we've had our struggles in the early days with finding compatible hardware that would work with our rosin sauce. And again, cultivar to cultivar, some strains were working better with a particular type of hardware than others, right?

1:37:26Collin PalmerWell, it's also our understanding of how to decarb is, is evolved.

1:37:30SpeakerOh yeah.

1:37:31Collin PalmerThat, you know, and paired with the right hardware, which we could have a whole side quest. But we're on, we're on a, we're on a pre-roll show, so let's keep it straight. But, but yeah, no, I can agree with you. I think hardware, I ended up designing my own hardware. It's just, I have a background in design and, and, you know, so I, I'm lucky to be able to like I'm working on these now, which are postless five tens, you know, and, you know, there's a lot to kind of figure out here.

1:38:03Collin PalmerThere's there's so much to explore. But back to the pre-roll thing, I wanted to kind of ask some questions because I had some curious curiosity here and I didn't get to get them. So I don't really know when you were designing them. Were you thinking of airflow in the

1:38:22Collin PalmerThe filter area and how when you fill a pre-roll and how the conical air flows through it, how it creates that vortex, how did you guys design the crutch down on the bottom? What was the thought behind that? Because that's the most important thing that I see at a pre-roll is like, The shape of how it comes out, like the conical aspect of it. And then how does that airflow go into the actual, you know, the end filter piece?

1:38:57SpeakerYeah, well, that's a bit of a big topic. And full disclosure, I'm not taking any credit for being the designer of this product. I'm... Let's call it a representative of Pureflow. So I'm distributing the product in Canada and North America and, you know, really globally. But right now, I think the pre-roll markets of Canada and USA dominate from a global perspective. So the technology behind Pureflow is actually stemming from another industry of of A brown leaf smokable, which is quite popular around the world.

1:39:41SpeakerSo a lot of money and research went into the design of this, this style of acetate membrane in order to capture the heavier particles of smoke, namely tar and other molecules that we don't necessarily want to be collecting in our lungs. And then what ended up happening is Another company got involved and this company happens to be the most adept pre-roller in the globe. And so it's an interesting dynamic, the supply chain of pre-rolls.

1:40:20SpeakerI don't know if you guys have really looked into it in depth of How it works moving around the world, but it's interesting to me. I used to be in the diamond trade at one time after getting roasted with a couple houses back in the mid-90s. I had to take a break from growing and dove into the diamond world where it's like a diamond from Northern Canada is shipped to Israel or Antwerp, Belgium to be polished.

1:40:49SpeakerThen it's shipped to another location to be graded before it's shipped back to the USA to be sold. To use that analogy from the global diamond trade of how the product moves around the world, the pre-roll paper itself, the reams of paper come from a very specific region of Europe, which is basically northern Spain and southern France. There's this rich history going back 100 years of making burnable papers for smoking things.

1:41:19SpeakerAnd so the papers moving from Europe, Over to Asia to be rolled. And these cones that we're talking about pure flow are actually hand rolled. So there's an art form that goes into that. So this company that specializes in hand rolling cones got a hold of this technology from the other company. And then there's a global utility patent on the cone shaped version of this acetate membrane for cone shaped pre-rolls.

1:41:53SpeakerAnd that is the Pure Flow brand. And that's the brand that we're representing now in Canada and across the world. Very excited about it. But to answer your question specifically, Colin, about the science behind it, the cone-shaped filter has an inverse cone Inside of it so that the hole facing the biomass is smaller than the hole that we're drawing from at the bottom. So that cone within the cone creates a venturi vortex inside the filter so that The heavier thickness of the membrane that touches the biomass is already pulling smoke through it because it's like a honeycomb of membrane.

1:42:35SpeakerLike think of it like a Puma stone or something like that. It's getting drawn through all these chambers that capture the heavy particles of smoke. Sure. But then also inside the filter, It's getting spun so that that that adds extra surface contact from the smoke. So it's filtering on the inside, but also speeding up and cooling down the smoke. But because the filter is hollow, it also is an unrestricted draw.

1:43:04SpeakerSo there's no sort of. Is that you sharing, Marcus? Could you please go to the brand new website that just dropped? It's called StellarJays.com. I just want to give hats off to my team.

1:43:18BubblemanSend me the link. I will send you the link. Because actually, we've been all looking for it. It's almost impossible to find if you just Google for it. So people in the chat were like, can you put up the link? And then the link that I found was your distribution company.

1:43:33SpeakerPardon me. I just want to say... You know, business is a team sport. I'm here representing a company of hardworking people. There's nine of us working on this project and my team has been working this morning. They just launched the new Stellar Jays website during this show.

1:43:53BubblemanWe'll ship it over and I'll send it out to all the people.

1:43:56SpeakerI just put it in the chat here.

1:43:58BubblemanOh, perfect.

1:43:59SpeakerYeah. Thank you, Marcus, because actually there's a really good visual there. On StellarJays.com, that's S-T-E-L-L-A-R-J-S.com. There's a great visual.

1:44:13BubblemanI put it, I put it, yeah, I'll open it right now. I put it in the actual YouTube chat because the chat you put it in is perfect, but it's only for us here on the panel. Thank you, sir. And you want me to open it as well?

1:44:24SpeakerYou're like a techno wizard, aren't you, Marcus? You've got... You know, we're in Zoom, but we're on YouTube and the whole universe is happening right now. I'm just trying to keep it together, man.

1:44:34KyleKyle's mind is just blown. He just can't believe it. He's just never seen the technology before.

1:44:39SpeakerSo scroll down on that right there. There's Pureflow right there. That's really good timing. So this shows you a cutaway visual of what's happening inside that filter column.

1:44:51BubblemanThat is what I had open on your page as well.

1:44:54Collin PalmerSo you mentioned it's a hollow vortex, but you pack the joint completely full, right?

1:45:00SpeakerYes. That cutaway is everything behind the sticker. So you see the sticker? That's our little stellar jaybird on the crutch. And so the cutaway is everything to filter, and then all your biomass is going in the cone above the sticker.

1:45:17Collin PalmerAnd so... Understood. I just, you mentioned there was a hollow center. So I just want to make sure, because in my mind, when I hear hollow center, that's literal for me. I'm like, okay, so I'm filling around something in the center of this thing that's conical. No. I think I can...

1:45:33BubblemanThe paper is an open paper, Colin. The only piece that you see on the right is the filter where the blue sticker with... Yeah, exactly.

1:45:41Collin PalmerI understood. Yeah, got it.

1:45:41BubblemanThe paper is just a big open paper. You can just dump herb in there.

1:45:45SpeakerWord. Word. Before I move on, I just want to point out that this product is a branding darling because the traditional way to customize a joint has been to print on the cardboard crutch that lives underneath the paper so that even on the whitest of paper that brand is coming through the paper somewhat muted because you're seeing it through paper. Where with Pureflow, the reason we're putting the sticker on it It's because the filter actually works.

1:46:17SpeakerSo during the course of smoking the joint, that filter is turning from white to yellow because it's taking so much of the smoke out of the draw. And so in order to mask that yellowing effect, we've come up with this crutch sticker, which any company can put their brand on. And it's a high gloss sticker. So it's a really great way to You know, share the story of your brand doing something different, differentiating the experience for the end user by actually protecting their lungs.

1:46:53SpeakerAnd then we have a new foil sticker as well, which is like a little bit extra, extra sauce for somebody who wants to do that, that extra pizzazz.

1:47:05KyleSo if I may step in here, Kyle explains this also like, you know, from a sales perspective, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, like this is a company, this is a product that Kyle's really passionate about and he's explaining it, you know, like, uh, From someone who hasn't smoked as many of these things as I have. At this point, I've rolled well over 10,000 of them and I've smoked easily 200 myself.

1:47:36KyleAnd what Kyle's explaining, but You know, isn't detailing accurately is not much of the smoke actually passes through this membrane. It's incredibly dense. It's not like a cigarette filter, for example, where when you squeeze it, it's kind of squishy. It's a very compact, hard, solid, dense material. The smoke is essentially, you know, the heavy resins are being wicked out of the smoke as it passes through. And it's not really filtering it, but it's It's having like a surface contact effect on the smoke, which I also notice holds a lot of fine ash and dusty particulate as it makes its way into the filter.

1:48:20KyleAnd although the center is hollow, I have yet to experience a single piece of weed flowing through. So with the right mill, it's been incredibly effective. And at the end of the day, it works. It creates quite a consistent experience From a R&D perspective.

1:48:41SpeakerWell, Creed, I really appreciate you jumping in on that because you're right. You have smoked more Pure Flow than me. I only brought a box of 20 to Victoria a while back and lo and behold, I smoked them all and the products all in Vancouver. So I just went and got myself a hundred bucks. Kyle, I'm very upset that I'm the only one who hasn't gotten to try these.

1:49:04SpeakerWell, we only teed this up on Friday, Aaron, so I'm going to send you some. And I'm going to send you some because guess what? You don't need the $100 box. You need the $800 box because you're going to be doing up some custom pods for us. I will. Absolutely. Yeah. Tell us about the tolerance on a hummingbird pod and why that's so important. Oh, so, um, yeah, uh, so my machine, uh, uh, it's called a hummingbird and, uh, it basically, it's one of the most versatile machines out there right now.

1:49:37SpeakerUh, most pre-roll machines here, let me break this down real quick. Most pre-roll machines are either vibratory or like a sewing passion, you know, uh, it's, uh, It's the knockbox or it's something bigger and it's the same mechanical issues across the whole board, whether you go from the knockbox or all the way up to the couple hundred thousand dollar machines. When we started making our machine, we were worried about that same product.

1:50:05SpeakerWe were working with the knockbox and we were looking at everything and noticing that we didn't like it. So we ended up making our machine, the Hummingbird, based off of centrifugal force. So we'll use a centrifuge to pack the cones. Because of that, you're going to get an even pack from tip to tail. You're going to be able to control that pack. It's actually, you know, it's actually, how can I put it?

1:50:31SpeakerYou're controlling the compaction that you want. You can turn it up more or less. Thank you for watching.

1:51:02KyleI've actually had quite a bit of hands-on experience with your hummingbird as well. The unit that Kyle had, he brought it by my lab and we did some R&D with it. It was super fun to play with, man. I gotta say, it's a very unique rolling experience for sure.

1:51:17SpeakerNo, absolutely. And you know, it gives you a lot of versatility. I mean, I really can't get into it enough. Every one of those pods that you see in those pods of those little red discs, you basically every time you want to switch a skew, there's no change parts. You're pulling that out. You're putting the next one inside. You want to do a king size. You're grabbing the blue.

1:51:41SpeakerYou want to do a dog walker. You're grabbing the yellow. You know, you want to do blunts. You're grabbing one of the other ones off the shelf. How many joints could me and a homie spin up in one day, call it a 10-hour shift? Okay, look, let me put it like this. And this is one of the biggest things I get so excited, or not excited, but I get really heated about in the cannabis world.

1:52:05SpeakerSo many people want to say, hey, my machine runs for, you know, the knockbox runs for two minutes. And it does 100. So theoretically, I should be able to do X amount over it. But it's not running for two minutes. You're filling it. You're taking it out. You're moving it around, right? You're doing all these things. It's actual workflow.

1:52:27KyleIt's about touch points. There's so many touch points with those.

1:52:30SpeakerSo many touch points. Yeah. My machine cuts that all down, right? The hummingbird cuts all of that away. And basically what you're going to do is you're going to do a one person. In an hour without breaking a sweat is going to do between 1400 and 1000. And that's one person doing every touch point.

1:52:52KyleNow... And it's small. This is a... And it's very small.

1:52:56SpeakerIt's the size of a microwave. It runs off a 120 volt. You can plug it into your kitchen. Aaron, throw your microwave out and buy a hummingbird, okay? That's... I mean, hey, it would serve a better purpose. Yes. Although, just a quick side note, we used to smoke nuclear joints. There's this weird guy that came to Victoria and he's like... Take your joint and put it in the microwave.

1:53:22SpeakerAnd we would nuke the joint for 30 seconds before we smoked it. And man, he put on Pink Floyd the wall. I felt like I was on mushrooms off that thing. I never did it again because I don't have a microwave. I don't keep them around. I think that was a placebo. Yeah, that sounds placebo to me too. Dude, I was tripping. I swear.

1:53:45KyleI just dried it out, nuked all the terps, and gave you radiated weed.

1:53:49SpeakerYeah, I was going to say, did it decarb it and you ate some? I'm talking 30 years ago. I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh, no, I'm just not sure how that would work.

1:53:59KyleWe love a good anecdote. We love a good anecdote.

1:54:02SpeakerI love it. But yeah. So it's 120 cones per cycle. 120 cones. It spins for a minute. It only spins for a minute. Or less. Like 22 seconds or 33 seconds. You set it for 15 seconds. And what it does is it ramps up to whatever speed you have set. So we usually start around 2,000 RPM. And you turn that up or down based on the cannabis that you have.

1:54:29SpeakerYou know, sometimes, sometimes you have to tune the run to the weed. Absolutely. Sometimes you have a very sticky cannabis. You don't want it to compact too much. You know, you slow that down, you get a better airflow. Look, this is what I tell everyone. If you can control the airflow, You can control a lot of different things. You can control the heat, right? Because as you control the airflow, you're controlling how much it's burning and how fast.

1:55:02SpeakerYou can give me the best cannabis on the planet, but if I burn it too hot, and the same thing with dabs, you burn too hot, you're ruining everything. You're not getting the taste that you should. Okay? Now cut back. If you're controlling that heat, you're controlling that taste, you're controlling everything. So, What we recommend with the Hummingbird is you do a small batch of simple four joints, right?

1:55:25SpeakerTo start off, you dial in your SOP, you get your speed, you get your weights down, and then you're off to the races right after that. Yeah. Nice. It's a great machine. It's hands-on. It's like you're making the cone. You're not like, Dumping your lead in a bin and it goes around 18. It's lean automation. Look, guys, we've all looked at pre-roll machines and they are hundreds of thousands of dollars.

1:56:01SpeakerAnd they have all these bells and whistles. You need a compressor. You have to have these actuators. There's all these different pieces that are moving on these machines.

1:56:14KyleDon't get me started on a proxy pack, but like they're so complicated, you're right.

1:56:21SpeakerAnd here's what ends up happening. You end up having one piece go wrong and all of a sudden the machine is down. Or what's even crazier, I actually had someone talk to me and tell me that he was tired of being held hostage by his employees. Meaning that he's got one guy who can run this machine. And if that guy doesn't show up, that machine doesn't run.

1:56:48SpeakerWhat kind of operation is that? And no cannabis company right now, unless you're an MSO, unless you're something huge and you're able to pump out these things, well, I mean, yeah, go get a half a million dollar machine. But what kind of real craft company right now is going to be able to afford Thank you so much for joining us.

1:57:30SpeakerI would run it quality to quality 100%. It's a zero loss system. It's not going to bounce around like the knockbox. It's going to give you everything that you put in. It's going to get out. Guaranteed perfect crutch. I would put my machine next to anything else on the market right now. It's also quiet. It's very quiet. That little part right before the filter where it could potentially.

1:57:55SpeakerYes, absolutely. So here's the thing. Because it's a centrifuge, right? You're pushing everything into that cone. It's a zero loss system. Like I said, what you put in, you're going to get out. It's highly accurate, but it's got nowhere else to go. It's physics. I mean, if you think about it, you guys, if you've ever been on that ride, the Gravitron, spinning around, it's pushing you up against the side of the thing at the fair.

1:58:18SpeakerI don't know if you guys ever been at that. Oh, yeah. You know what you're talking about.

1:58:22BubblemanYou should show a video, though, because all the words in the world will not explain your unit as much as like a 30-second video of it being used. Oh, I'm...

1:58:32SpeakerYou know what? I am not that savvy to be able to pop it up. You can talk about Hummingbird for another 60 seconds. I'll find a video. There you go, Kyle. You got his back. All I'm saying is, look, it's physics. When you're spinning something that fast and you're able to pull all of those particles at every one, whether it's small or big, everything that's been broken up is being pulled at the exact same rate.

1:59:00SpeakerIt's basically being, for a better lack of words, fluidized. All those particles are now moving almost like a fluid towards the back of that cone. They're filling in, it's biomass filling in on biomass. You're not going to have a crutch that is weak. You're not going to have a piece that runs. When things canoe and it folds in, it burns, that's because there's an open pocket of air.

1:59:27SpeakerWhere there's nothing to burn underneath. And so it opens up that paper and runs along the side. But if it's like fluid, how does it not come through the hole? See, that's the thing. No, no. That's the thing. As long as you get the compaction at the end, right, it's going to fill in around itself almost as if like, did you see how the vortex action

1:59:55SpeakerLook, it's filling in complete one side, one side, one side all the way around. I have never had where if you go to the knockbox, you'll have Scooby Snacks all over the bottom all the time. Anything vibratory, anything like that, you're going to have Scooby Snacks because what's happening there is it's particle separation. Right. Look at vibratory in any other, in any other, how can I put it?

2:00:25SpeakerIn any other industry, you vibrate, it's particle separate. That's gold mining, you guys. I know. I love the video of the guy who's cleaning the dirt off the floor of his car and he puts the vibrator down so it all pops up and then he hits it with the vacuum. Absolutely. You know, and then, yeah, who wants to pack their weed that way? Yeah. All you're getting is separation, and you're getting the granulation where it's going down through that hole.

2:00:53SpeakerYou're getting, you know, particles on the sides, you're getting it spilling out the edges, and you're getting particulate in the air.

2:01:00KyleIt's also organizing the particles by size and weight, which creates that compact lack of airflow. Like once the particle size is uniform, they interlock. And so the vibration has a tendency to do that.

2:01:13SpeakerThere's another part of the machine. It's not just the hummingbird. There's something called the finisher. And you haven't seen the finisher creed, but basically with the original hummingbird, you had to hand twist the joint, potentially trim it. Now they've got What's called the finisher, which is a closing tool. So can everyone see the video I'm sharing of it? Yeah, this was just recently put out in October of last year.

2:01:42SpeakerAnd it Dutch crowns all your joints at the same time. They come out of the out of the hummingbird. You split the pod in half, put it into the machine. So you can do all four pods. Yep, so actually the only difference, no, this is what you're seeing right now is the first prototype actually. What we did was, yes, the first prototype did all four pods and we are putting out an electric one probably within the next year or so, which will, but right now we put out a manual one and what it does is just two.

2:02:19SpeakerAnd the reason we did that was the pressure of having a manual one coming up and down We just got worried that someone sooner or later might complain about the added strength of doing four and we said well if we cut it in half we'll never have any problems. Oh, so it's about the strength it takes. Yeah, this is a manual. So this is single action automation.

2:02:43SpeakerThis is manual right here. It's never going to go wrong. Never do anything that it's not supposed to. You have no problems and it just pushes it right off the bottom. I don't know. I'm actually not sure where you have actually even found these videos. You're an online wizard. But yeah, it just pushes them right off the bottom. And then... Maybe this is the continuation? No, I just want to say, Aaron, we need a finisher in Canada.

2:03:14SpeakerYou know, like Creed's considering Hummingbird, but he's like, man, I can't twist all these things closed, you know? So we need to have a demo unit up here of the finisher so that people can see the full solution. No, I feel great about that. The issue that I'm having, to tell you the truth, is we're having these produced right down the street from us in Oakland, California, and they are a hot ticket, man.

2:03:40SpeakerWe're putting them together and they're going out the door. So yeah, I will definitely, I have one earmarked for you, but... We, like I said, we just debuted it and there's really nothing else on the market that's doing anything this well. There's something from King Cone, which I really do like. It's very similar, but if you were to see the difference in...

2:04:04KyleI have one of those.

2:04:06SpeakerOkay. If you were to... I'm not trying to say anything. I'm just... I would probably say more like the speed and reliability of... Waivers, but the difference is in the price. If you look at, if you look at the King Cone price, it's, you know, it's very much in the early stage.

2:04:26KyleValue range. It's a budget.

2:04:28SpeakerIt's very much, you know, the early stages of where a company maybe would start out. But if you want to get into real production, you know, you want to get into rivaling some of these companies that you're competing with that have these half a million dollar machines. That's what we set up the plan for. Aaron, I've got one more question for you for Hummingbird. In Canada, we're federally regulated.

2:04:52SpeakerAnd so there's a rule book, you know, you could stand on it, you get taller. There's so many rules about cannabis. And one of them is the average weight. I was wondering that too, because for our production, that was definitely like a very time consuming topic because, you know, we had to stay within the standards and

2:05:30SpeakerThere's a lot of ideas that would cut down on time and whatever, but there was always that they need to be within range. So I was also wondering that. So thank you for asking, Kyle, because I was very curious about that.

2:05:47BubblemanSorry, the screen is just your screen if you want to stop sharing and then I can go back to the panel.

2:05:53SpeakerSorry, I was trying to show the weight of the...

2:05:56BubblemanI don't mind you showing anything. Just sometimes when it turns into a screen that says link to Windows is off, try again. I was like, let's get rid of that until you figure it out and then you can reshare as many times as you want. Thank you.

2:06:08SpeakerYeah, no. So as for weights, it's a highly, highly accurate system. Unlike, unlike, you know, things that are vibratory and things that are, you know, if you look at a lot of other machines, there is waste just built in. You're going to have waste in most operations. You know, there's a lot of things that are put in particulate in the air. This is what you put in is what you get out.

2:06:33SpeakerIt's like I said, it's physics, guys. If you put it in the, if you put the cannabis in that pod, it's going to go down inside that cone. It has nowhere else to go. I mean, this is, I mean, if you watch this here, it's just dead on to dead on to dead on throughout that whole pile. And these are infused joints in this video. Yep. These are 1.5, these are full gram joints that are infused.

2:07:01SpeakerAnd then so they're probably like 1.2 or 3, but they're showing the crutch there too. And that's coming straight out of the hummingbird. Yep, that's coming straight out of the hummingbird and twisted. Wow, nice one, Aaron. Thank you, sir. And twisted out of the hummingbird, yeah. Yeah, that was, that was out of, those were hand twisted right out of the hummingbird. That video was taken before we had done the closer, but same, same thing right out of the hummingbird.

2:07:26SpeakerThey come, there might even be another video somewhere out there. I'm not sure where you're finding them, but called Packed. But when they come out of the hummingbird, they're perfectly packed. I actually will take a joint. Right out of the hummingbird in front of it. This is my favorite thing to do when I do a demo at a trade show is take them out of the hummingbird and take that joint right as it comes out and I tip it upside down and I shake it and nothing falls out because it's completely packed perfectly.

2:07:54KyleYou know?

2:07:55SpeakerAnd it's like the Dairy Queen flip. That's the Dairy Queen lizard flip. Yep, exactly. The blizzard. Exactly. And then I'll do that. And then I'll even hand it to someone or give them even the next one out and say, now check the airflow and they'll pull it up to their lips and they'll check the airflow. And at some of these cannabis shows where I can give them the product, sometimes I'll use CBD hemp because that's the type of show we're at.

2:08:26SpeakerBut if it's a live cannabis show, that is my other favorite thing to do is go say, now go smoke it and tell me it's not going to be one of the perfectly packed pre-rolls. Well, the beautiful thing is, Aaron, once we get these custom pods figured out for these pure flow filters, because they are both Kyle, you don't remember? We put a whole bunch of the pure flows in the hummingbird.

2:08:47SpeakerWhat do you mean I don't remember? That was three months ago.

2:09:08KyleYeah, yeah, no, but we ran hundreds of those pure flows through that. Yeah, I do. Yeah, anyways, I found it to be challenging with heavily infused biomass. It was difficult, even at higher RPMs and longer spin speeds, but for every other thing, it was highly challenging.

2:09:28SpeakerI think that that mix you made that day was overly tacky. And I think since then you have refined your homogenization techniques for formulation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2:09:40KyleDon't you question my formulations, Kyle.

2:09:44SpeakerIf I could, I will throw two things out there to you, right? Just because I know my machine pretty well.

2:09:53SpeakerI'm not saying to throw it in a blast chiller, but maybe pre-freeze the material to get it a little colder, right? That always makes it a little less tacky. Or play your machine work in a cold room. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I've seen it in sub-zero temperatures. But what was I going to say? I actually have a new pod that I've been working on that does... Different molds of glass tips, which I think that this PureFlow would even fit better in.

2:10:26SpeakerAnd what I'm using now is, you've seen the pods, they're made of, they're called PETG, P-E-T-G plastic. And that's food safe, you know.

2:10:40KyleAre they 3D printed? Yes. Are they 3D printed? Yeah.

2:10:43SpeakerYep. And then now I've been doing something called TPU, which is a more spongy material. And that actually grips the glass on the bottom and fits into the bottom of that piece to hug the glass. So it's actually a newer piece of technology that we're coming out with. But it will, everything that you just said, the issues you guys were experiencing, even though you guys were coming around it, even that touch point will be cleared up.

2:11:12KyleOf course, yeah, I mean, a chilled room is a huge benefit. A chilled room is like a necessity.

2:11:20SpeakerThe, I don't think it even matter, like, well, it does matter, but, or infused material, my experience has never been an easy material to work with. Like, there's, yeah, but I agree. Chill temperatures. Chill temperatures. And look, once I say again, it's it's physics. You know, you can give me I tell people, look, at the end of the day, if you under the right setup, you can give me Play-Doh and I'll put it into a cone for you.

2:11:53KyleThe thing about infused material and your method of rolling is also that, you know, it's a metering tray that, you know, portions out the cannabis. For infused material, it's way, way different. And so the metering trays are never really accurate. You know, a one gram is going to put a 1.3 and a half gram is going to put a 0.75. So it's very difficult to regulate the weights when you're incorporating infusion, I think.

2:12:21BubblemanYou know, a lot of the folks that I've seen in chat today, you know, they're like, oh, machine this, and they're just selling mids. And it's like, listen, I have these same problems in the hash world with my hash hits. Figuring out a way to create it as a product that has economic viability is how you get it out to the, I don't like to say the customer or the industry.

2:12:44BubblemanI'm more like a community and the members of our community kind of guy. um it sounds a little less chatty too because it's both cannabis has always been both we're an industry where we're absolutely selling to clients but we're also a community with people who are members of said community and so and it's even more complicated by the fact that we're in recreational but we're also in um medical here i'm just gonna hit a quick dab out of this brand new banger that uh Brian from D-Nail just said.

2:13:14KyleThat's one of the biggest moral dilemmas when it comes to corporate cannabis is there's always got to be some sacrifice. And it's usually, you know, monetary. You have to sacrifice your personal money. It's the whole reason I started grades of hash. And in fact, it's kind of why in Colorado we're kind of talking about

2:13:57BubblemanTaking the star rating, which was created by my friends, Corpy and Space, which was really about the melt factor, which confused a lot of consumers. And we're kind of bringing it back into the grade and quality of the hash. You know, a one-star hash could be like a dry sifted product that's been pressed without any heat. It's just kind of a crumbly hash. You know, a two-star might be a brick hash that's actually a gummy.

2:14:23BubblemanYou know, a three-star might be a temple ball. Four-star, now you're getting into kind of bubbles, like, you know, half melt bubble is what I call a four-star. It's, you know, it's bubbling, it's moving. Being able to educate people on this is fairly important. It's... It's not easy as though it might not be as interesting as a conversation as some of the conversations we've had, but it's not easy to come up with this equipment and to come up with the fixes for some of these things.

2:14:54BubblemanLike for me, pure hash joints, how do I commercialize rolling those so I can get them out to the 4.3 million people that watched me smoke the first one on my YouTube channel and said, how do I get one of those? So it becomes this very difficult thing. We want to be able to work with what we love, which is cannabis. And we want to be able to pay the bills and send our kids to a good school and maybe our wife to the spa and on a trip.

2:15:22BubblemanLike we want to do all the things that everyone wants to do. We're just not doing it the same way as, you know, getting hired as a job, working for a paycheck, you know, pioneering and creating and inventing machines and equipment is fantastic. Thank you for joining us today.

2:15:54BubblemanWe are, you know, we are all well invested in this to the point where, you know, the least you can do is rather than take the sort of negative of it is try to see the value. This is Hash Church. We like to geek out on things. I have been completely ignorant of the joint smoking world because I haven't smoked joints. And so now that I am smoking joints, I thought, shit, this is a conversation we could have on Hash Church, you know, because before I wasn't a part of that conversation.

2:16:25BubblemanI looked at pre-rolls as a thing, much like the way a lot of the hash snobs, you know, all those are mids, those are just bunk, those are just garbage. And then, but I wasn't even a part of it. I was just criticizing something that I wasn't a part of. And in the meantime, it's literally like 70 plus percent of the market. So if you're in the cannabis market and you're say trying to, You know, create a brand and not, you know, when you're creating a brand, it's not just a simple thing like, oh, I'm trying to make money.

2:16:57BubblemanIt's like, no, you're building like a monstrous team of a bunch of people and all of those people are going to be getting paid and they're all going to be a part of the making money of that entity. And in order to do that, you have to create an economic viability. And so obviously pre-rolled joints. I literally just released the first bubble man infused pre-rolled joint down in Colorado.

2:17:20BubblemanSo this is, you know, my partner asked me months ago, he was like, Hey, would you ever want to do a pre-rolled joint? And I was like, well, I don't, I don't smoke joints. So it would be weird. It's like six or seven months ago. And then four or five months ago, I smoked my first joint. And then many more months went by and he was kind of like, Hey, like you're kind of smoking joints now.

2:17:39BubblemanAnd I was like, yeah, I know. And he's like, well, do you want to, do you want me to roll you up? Like, I had never, I had not smoked an infused pre-rolled joint. I mean, in a sense, ever. The last time I smoked a bubble hash in a joint would have been around 99. And it would have been a snake. Because we just rolled snakes back then.

2:18:05BubblemanI guess snakes aren't really a thing these days, huh? No, they definitely are.

2:18:10KyleThey definitely are. Yeah.

2:18:12BubblemanThey're called hash holes. But hash holes are rosin. Are people making hash holes with bubble? With full mouth? Oh, yeah.

2:18:18Collin PalmerYou can. Yeah, you can do it with bubble too, man. But like you, Marcus, like I felt.

2:18:23BubblemanI haven't seen them on the market yet. Yeah, they're expensive to make.

2:18:27KyleThey're hard to roll. They're very hard to roll.

2:18:29BubblemanWell, just so few people can make full melt bubble. So let's just put that at the top of the roster.

2:18:35KyleWe're talking about a product that yields, you know, in the, you know, half a percent, you know, when you get to the fully cleaned heads, you know, you're talking 1% return. Or that's what you've seen.

2:18:49BubblemanYou know, possibly there are people who are able to grow weed on a different level. So when you process it, it's truly a five or a 6%. I made full melt bubble at Breeders Steve's in 2002 or three. I know that because both our daughters were born in 01 and they were babies. So it was around 2002 or 03.

2:19:10BubblemanAnd I made Bubble, it was Red Eye Magazine was there, Andre Grossman from High Times Magazine, the epic old school photographer from High Times in the 80s and 90s. And probably a bunch of other super awesome people, but we made bubble from Breeder Steve's like sweet tooth tunnel growing in Lugano. So it was like a outdoor greenhouse type thing. And the 190, the 160, the 120, all the way to the 25 were like full melt.

2:19:39BubblemanLike it was unbelievable. And I've seen it not as often as I would like to, but I do know that when it comes to water hash, I don't understand personally why more people don't use the bags as a method to describe or to understand whether your plants hit the mark when it comes to genetic expression that was available and that it was capable of. Meaning that it sequestered everything it needed, everywhere it needed it, every time it needed it, in the exact amount it needed it.

2:20:15BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

2:20:31BubblemanThank you for joining us today.

2:20:49BubblemanAnd I think the more we understand all of these things, the more we can get to a place where people, you know, because what I've always seen with bubble is that it's like pointing you to this path. You get to the point where you take your flower the first time and you wash it, and then it's pointing you in this path of learning, why did my hash not melt?

2:21:11BubblemanIt's the most often question I ever got. In fact, it was always framed like this. How do I get my hash to melt like yours? And I would say, ooh, listen, like that is a long journey. You're going to have to learn about The growing of cannabis, the actual proper breeding and genetics of cannabis and the genetics that you're looking for are going to begin everything. And then being able to learn about mycorrhizal spheres and the symbiotic relationships of fungi and all of these other complex things.

2:21:45BubblemanI'm like, ooh, where do you think they're going to go before they go there?

2:21:50KyleAll of it.

2:21:55BubblemanAnd then where do people go when they don't want to really face all of that? They go to, I'll just blast it, which over time turned into, I can make rosin out of it, right? And so...

2:22:08KyleIt's the number one way to remediate a crop failure, essentially. You know, it's like, that's what I'm seeing more and more is these LPs are looking for contracted extractors because they had to pull a room down in week six because they had something terrible happen. And they're just like, fuck, we need any way to recuperate this fucking massive loss. So... I think that's the origin of extracting like in its essence, to be honest.

2:22:33BubblemanBecause they took the right instead of the left. Like if you take the left and you go down the pathway that is, I'm not going to stop till I get to full melt bubble. It doesn't mean you have to stay in full melt bubble. Once you've learned that lesson, you can take that to I'm going to be a pre-rolled joint guy. I'm going to be a butane extractor.

2:22:51BubblemanI'm going to be a whatever, whatever it happens to be in cannabis. Be the highest expression that it can be. Don't. Don't be content down here and understand that taking that pathway, the left pathway that teaches you all about these complex things, having, you know, if you're an extractor, for instance, you should have an influence on the people who are growing your material. Unless they're doing it to perfection, you should be able to sit down with them and say, hey, listen, do you know about this?

2:23:22BubblemanDo you know about this? I'm not trying to undermine you in any way, but I really would like us both to be the most successful. And all I'm doing is unveiling what you're doing and what I'm unveiling says you're not doing it very well. You know, it's a hard discussion to have.

2:23:38KyleThe relationship between the growers and the processors needs to be symbiotic. Like they need to be so aware of what's happening on both ends if you want the expected outcome. And if you're not in the gardens yourself as an extractor and like monitoring the health and the growth cycles, then I think you're doing yourself a disservice for sure.

2:23:58SpeakerWell, I agree. I agree with you, Creed. But I also want to throw out that there's a lot of like... Big white labeling plants out there that basically will, you know, big white labeling companies that basically are willing to say, hey, you give me garbage, I'll give you garbage back, you know, and they're just pumping it out and pumping it out. And it's, and I mean, it's, I mean, I mean, I tell her for it somewhere, but You can, I mean, especially with, dabs are not my thing, to tell you the truth, okay?

2:24:35SpeakerI mean, I dabble, yeah, right? I dabble into dabs, but I mostly smoke plantain and flour. But to tell you the truth, Man, it does a disservice to the art form to pump it full of just garbage out there, man. You can easily tell something done right and something done wrong.

2:24:59KyleYeah, I'll tell an LP that their material is just not worth extracting. I'll tell them to go make distillate. I'm just like, yeah, I'm not putting that through my equipment. Especially yield. Yield is a huge factor. Like if it's a low yielding material, it's so much more work on my end to process that much of biomass. So it's just realiztically, it's a cost benefit analysis. And you got to be honest with the cultivator when their material is garbage.

2:25:27Collin PalmerYeah, I mean, Aaron, I'm constantly out there in the field, like basically interviewing possible air quotes partners, as I call it, because like I go to their grow and I'm like, OK, well, show me, you know, show me why we can we should be partners, you know, kind of thing, because it's it's very rare that I can find a good partner. Yeah, for sure.

2:25:49SpeakerI completely understand that, you know? Yeah.

2:25:52BubblemanThat's why you got to act like the dude from the Open Table Netflix documentary on pizza. There's the Italian dude and he would go visit his tomato farmer and it's mozzarella maker and his basil farmer. And he had this super intense relationship. He was out in the dirt on his knees. The basil was in his face. He was rubbing the tomatoes like, believe it or not, you don't have to be the guy that does everything.

2:26:18BubblemanYou can just create incredible relationships. Someone asked me, you know, like, you know, James in the chat mentioned that, yeah, it should be processor and grower in the same spot. And I replied with, I process more than they can grow. So instead, what I do is I find people who have taken that left path when their hash didn't melt. I like to choose the people that have taken the left path.

2:26:45BubblemanAnd all of them have different paths. Aaron Wendel, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of

2:27:09BubblemanFull melt bubble, 73 micron, full melt bubble. The first time you hit that, you're like, I get it now. And then now when someone says, I want a 73 micron meal, I want a 73 micron trip, I want a 73 micron life, I want a 73 micron partner, and you're like, yeah, I get it. I get what you're saying. And whether they're on the solventless path, whether they're on the solvent path, to me, it really doesn't matter.

2:27:38BubblemanAs long as you're willing to bend the knee to the plant, to listen to the plant in any way, shape or form that she so decides to show you or tell you. On how to get her where you're trying to get her to. That's the mission. And this whole like, I will not bend the knee. I will grow mids and make distillate. And I will. It's like, holy shit.

2:28:04BubblemanOkay. And in their defense of all of that. Those people aren't just doing that because it's easy and shitty. They're doing it because the most amount of people want that and have always wanted that, whether we like it or not. So what I would like the people who are watching and listening is that when you see pre-roll machines and the discussion of pre-rolls, it doesn't always have to be about mints.

2:28:31BubblemanThere's going to be a top tier world of pre-roll joints. Yeah, but people don't think that, dude. They assume, oh, it's pre-rolled. I used to do this myself. But there is a difference. Go buy a bunch of pre-rolls in the market. Go buy a bunch of different ones and smoke them and see if you think they're all the same.

2:28:50Collin PalmerI think what Marcus is saying is super real because in every segment has this, whether it's flour, rosin, hash, it doesn't matter what it is. There's levels to every SKU and every... Every aspect of it. I mean, there is an art form. I studied making a joint for 24 months. It was like a project I was assigned to. It's extremely complex from the grind diameter all the way to the airflow, to the varietal type you're selecting, to how it was grown.

2:29:21Collin PalmerI mean, I could go on and on.

2:29:23KyleYou're essentially engineering this product, you know? It has to be designed.

2:29:27Collin PalmerYeah, 100%. It's just because we came from a... I come from a world just like where, you know, it's just the traditional way you just roll it up, man. That's it. You know what I mean? We never thought about like... If it boated, it boated. I don't know, man. Like that was, that was on me. Like I rolled it. Right. But now it's a different, now I have to hear about it from someone else that I don't know.

2:29:52KyleIt used to be like a chaos factor, you know, like we used to think we had like no ability to regulate or manage the experience. And I love that about cannabis. I mean, it's an organic input that is so incredibly diverse that it's, like I said, the ignorance of man to think that you can control this incredibly organic experience. However, obviously the technology that's available to us and the spaces we have and the resources that are available, it's the only way to make a viable product on a commercial scale.

2:30:25KyleYou can't just be Thank you so much for joining us.

2:30:55BubblemanThe biggest space.

2:30:58KyleUnfortunately, the biggest portion of the market.

2:31:01SpeakerIt's because people don't know anybody, right? The more good product we put in the market, like all weed sells. I learned that at a young age. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's garbage, bunk, clay, quad A. Some of it sells slower than others, but it all sells eventually. So the thing is, is like every time we collectively put A better product in the market, we're giving someone else the opportunity to see something better because if you don't know any better, you're just going to buy whatever, right?

2:31:33SpeakerAnd that's part of the market penetration of quality product, I think.

2:31:39KyleI agree. Oh, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

2:31:42SpeakerI was just going to say, I was just going to say, like, I go with the cheeseburger analogy. I don't know if you guys have heard that one, but pre-rolls are like cheeseburgers. OK, look, if you want, if you're hungry, you can go find a three dollar cheeseburger and it's going to do exactly what it's supposed to do. It's going to it's going to take away that little bit of hunger that you got, but you're spending three dollars.

2:32:06SpeakerBut at the same rate, you can go to and get a Wagyu burger for $80 at a five-star restaurant and be completely happy with spending that money. You know, because you're satisfied in a completely different way. There are levels to this market with the pre-rolls. It's just where do you want to be and how to capitalize on that spot and how to be the best at what you can be at that spot.

2:32:33BubblemanAre you saying my pre-roll is not vegetarian? Is that what you mean? You know what?

2:32:41SpeakerIf you have a gluten-free, if you have a gluten-free vegetarian pre-roll right now in the right markets, it's going to sell hot.

2:32:51SpeakerNo, I'm just saying, but look, there's, there's, there's a place for everything. And just, it's, it's all about being the best you can in that spot, I guess. So, yeah, I just wouldn't count anyone out. I know, I know plenty of places that are vertically integrated and taking I mean, look, guys, every one of us hate it, but they're taking their garbage and they're turning it into pre-rolls and they're vertically integrated.

2:33:18SpeakerSo they'll be their own dispensary and they're offering $1 pre-rolls at the counter. What? Why would you not grab one with your... I have $2 in change? Give me two of those. And it's them getting their way...

2:33:36SpeakerPeople are always going to figure out how to make money on something, right? If they have it. And the pre-roll market is big enough to where they can grab the bottom branch if they want, or they can reach up to the top of the tree if they want.

2:33:52KyleLet's be honest though, cannabis is expensive and I think we kind of it's somewhat of it's so available to us we're somewhat desensitized to the economy and like how it affects people and I think there's a huge market for value products still not because they're not good but because you know it's a necessity it's a necessity and people need access to cannabis for so many different reasons and As much as, you know, like we probably wouldn't smoke that $1 pre-roll, I think it's so important for that to be available to some people as well.

2:34:25KyleAnd it doesn't, I don't think it truly detracts from, you know, like the cannabis culture, but you're right. It's not something we would be interested in, but I think there's a place for everything.

2:34:35SpeakerThere's a place for everything.

2:34:37KyleAll weed cells, like, like, like pizza.

2:34:42BubblemanThink of how much bad pizza is out there selling. You're just like, how are we going to get rid of all this bad pizza? They're like, we need to open up next to a bar that's open six days a week. And at 2 a.m. people will come out and they'll buy all the pizza. But this pizza is seven days old. It doesn't matter. They're going to buy it all.

2:34:59BubblemanWhat if they get sick? It doesn't matter. They're getting sick anyway. They're going to be throwing up this pizza, whether it makes them sick or their alcoholism makes them sick. It's still playing out the exact same way. What a metaphor. Who would have thought it? It's the human condition, I guess. That's the reality of it. We learned this many years ago on Hash Church that we're a little utopian in our perspectives and views when it comes to cannabis, but your words are correct, Creed, that it is a cost thing.

2:35:29BubblemanIt is the economy and where it's at and where people are at and how little extra money they seem to have these days. Thank God a lot less money is being put into alcohol. So it's not like they're making extra money. What they're doing is they're taking their booze money and being like, oh, shit, I think this booze is giving me anxiety. Let's try a little cannabis.

2:35:53BubblemanAnd if they get into it the right way, which once again, isn't by hitting some 90 micron full melt rip out of a mothership, that is not how you get turned on to cannabis for the first time. You smoke a little couple of two.

2:36:09KyleI will admit, Marcus, my first experience with like clear dome full melt was definitely with you at the old CC lounge and you definitely had some crazy heady and I was like, damn, what a fucking wild way to experience this. So I did come in at a, at a, you know, a non-entry level, you know, And I was like, damn, what a wild honor it was to already be a fan of you and experience your products at that time.

2:36:36KyleBut then like also through some crazy custom heady that you had, I don't even remember.

2:36:40BubblemanWas it dark and blue and purplish?

2:36:43KyleI think it might have been a Marbleslinger or something like an old Marbleslinger collab. I don't know.

2:36:49BubblemanI think it's in a box like right there. I swear to God.

2:36:52KyleOn a tie nail with the titanium screen over top and it would just melt right through. And then, yeah, it was good times. Hell yeah. That's what's up.

2:37:00BubblemanYeah, I definitely did that for a lot of people. But aside from the fact, I mean, really the larger group, not the tiny group of people that I turned on. Thank you for joining us.

2:37:28KyleBut bud tenders get a lot of goodie bags, man. It's like a trick or treat every day for them.

2:37:32SpeakerBut to be honest with you, that's like- How much of that stuff is fire though? Like, is that just people like trying to get their mids off the books? Like, oh, let's give it away. Maybe somebody will buy it.

2:37:42KyleNo, sometimes it's really nice. But the bud tenders are the front line. Like the bud tenders are the one that will make or break your brand. You know, they are the one that people- Oh, you're buying their allegiance.

2:37:51Bubblemanyeah they're they are the first ones people ask for a recommendation it's not even that you're buying their allegiance it's that how could they possibly well if they don't suggest your product if they've never tried it and how could we expect them to pay their own money to buy all those products that are in their stores which could be like you know like 300 grand worth of retail product or whatever

2:38:14KyleYou gotta stand out. You gotta have something that separates yourself from the market. Yeah, you definitely gotta stand out.

2:38:19SpeakerI remember I had a short-lived license in Oakland, California. It was an equity brand, right? So I was able to build my company for a relatively small amount of money. But when it really came about and I had to start giving out samples and goodie bags, I was like, oh my God, this is also costing money. Oh yeah. Yeah, it was, it's rough. The marketing, look, the marketing and being a cannabis company and not just with like things that like, like the goodie bags, but just like the having to put yourself out there and go to these dispensaries and build your product.

2:39:01SpeakerMan, I get my hats off to you guys. My hats are off to you guys because it's a lot of work.

2:39:08BubblemanWell, you got to get a proper sales team. You got, you know, there's groups of people that do that. Yeah.

2:39:13KyleIt's all boots on the ground all the time. You have to be.

2:39:16BubblemanYeah, well, because you have to be friends. You have to know all these people. You have to, why would they, why should they suggest your product, right? Like it has to be because they like it. There's no other, like you're not, you can't just pay them to like your product. Like samples aren't going to do it for sure. Then, oh yeah, I'll tell everyone, you know, now that you've given me a sample along with 500 other companies.

2:39:36BubblemanSo they really generally tell people the ones they like.

2:39:41Collin PalmerYeah, and big shout out to all the bud tenders all across every single market everywhere.

2:39:47BubblemanSee Vessel Life Science, how smart he is? You see that?

2:39:51Collin PalmerNot even like that. I'm joking, dude. What it is like, though, is that I...

2:39:57SpeakerThey're coming with stuff for you.

2:39:59Collin PalmerBut here's the thing. That's the feedback I get. And when they go to a new store and become the buyer, like I had the experience two weeks ago, This girl tried our surebanger at a store in Brooklyn. She called me the moment she was the buyer for another store. And she kind of went up and she was like, I really wanted to carry you guys because you were the best herb that I'd smoked.

2:40:22Collin PalmerAnd that's what it's about, man. You know, and that's the kind of stuff, the type of relationships that you can build organically through product that you've given to people that you've actually put the care and time to put into. Like, I'm sure it happens to your brand, Marcus, all the time in Colorado, where they're like, just take the jar. They literally take it, they use it, and then they're like, yo, I'll take like four, you know, a case of each to start or two cases of each to start.

2:40:50Collin PalmerAnd that's the relationship. It's built off of them genuinely liking the material. You know, that's that's different than them buying off a menu, which also happens like most of these people are also there's the flip side of it where they literally get a menu every Monday. And they're like, that's in a price point range I need. And the tack makes sense. And that's how, that's unfortunately what happens, man.

2:41:15Collin PalmerSo we're, you know, like we're also an anomaly when you bring the quality because there's other brands that we're talking about that are selling this like junky material. They're not able to do that. Like the, seriously, they're just not, they're not able to bring a jar full of, Great flower and have the bud tender on their own. Go to another store and carry it.

2:41:38SpeakerWell, just to add to that. And hi, I'm back, guys. Welcome back. How did it go at the party crashing? It was great. There were, you know, a lot of awws and, you know, all sorts of, everybody, great. You brought the bouquet? I brought the bouquet. And you're back. That's okay. I did what I needed to do. But I was listening to the podcast all the way through, so I'm not, I was listening to you guys chat the whole time, just so you know.

2:42:08SpeakerExcept when I was there. That would have been weird. That would have been weird. But, you know, it's interesting.

2:42:15Collin PalmerYou should have been listening.

2:42:17SpeakerWell, you know, you guys are talking about sample, you know, samples and how do you, you know, how do you build that trust with the consumer and that value proposition and have them understand the value proposition. And Colin, I agree, you know, I agree with you and with Marcus. Like on the one hand, it's not economical to just give joints away and these bud tenders are being inundated with samples.

2:42:41SpeakerBut the flip side is, you know, when they do get something special, You know when they do get something that they understand that they can they they they can you know really get behind they are going to push it and you know the the interesting part about this is is just to bring this back to the conversation about pre-rolls and what i was saying before you know what's the economical way to let someone try what's in your garden other than give them a pre-roll and have that pre-roll match the quality of what's coming out of the garden Right.

2:43:13SpeakerThat's how you go. You know, you're going to hear me talk a lot about quality and manufacturing, consistency in manufacturing and consistency and experience for the end user. The reality is you guys have put so eloquently is that, you know, us, the heady folks in the space, we represent probably one to three percent of the market. And. Unfortunately, it's been a real uphill battle trying to educate consumers as to what makes good weed good, right?

2:43:48SpeakerAnd that's why I said before, you still get these questions about the highest tack, the highest potency, the lowest price, all these things, because they don't understand So when a bud tender can get an experience with a cultivar or a brand or a product that they can really get behind, that becomes the basis for how you start to build that marketing in the space. Now, again, you go back to how do you do that economically?

2:44:15SpeakerAnd I think pre-rolls, which were always that giveaway to get people sort of that hook to get you to buy the zip, You know, the more things change, the more they stay the same, right? It's just now we just need to match that, once again, match that quality of product with the quality of manufacturing. So, because, you know, there's nothing worse than getting quads in a joint that you have to fix, right?

2:44:43SpeakerOr you get really tasty weed, but you can only smoke half of it because it clogged. Right, because the weed was put in the wrong cone with too narrow a taper and now you've greased yourself out and there's nothing, you know, it's not smokable, it turns into a puck. So you know you can go through all of this effort of putting together really really good cultivars really really good genetics and match that with really strong cultivation methodology but if you put it into a pre-roll cone that doesn't let it shine then you've lost the customer having unfortunately we're still at the stage we're having the weed It's only half the battle.

2:45:31SpeakerThat delivery mechanism is equally important, right? Because just as well, you could have weed that you put really good weed in a cone that doesn't smoke against weed that's maybe mids in a cone that smokes perfectly and you give that to the average consumer, there is a reasonable likelihood that they're going to go buy the product that didn't fuck up on them, that didn't cost them Thank you for joining us.

2:46:21Collin PalmerThat's the biggest problem that I've seen is finding a good cone provider that that checks all those boxes. Is there any idea that you call me later?

2:46:32SpeakerYeah.

2:46:33Collin PalmerWell, no, I think we should chat because there's definitely things that. Yeah, I got your message, by the way. So thanks for that. But yeah, the the thing I have a question about is, you know, I think about glass tips, ceramic tips. You know, how is this, how is this different than those, you know, just so I can better understand and maybe perhaps the, let's see.

2:46:57SpeakerAre you talking about pure flow?

2:46:59Collin PalmerYeah, the pure flow on specific.

2:47:00SpeakerLet me kick down first Creed and then I'll give it to you.

2:47:02KyleYeah, go for it.

2:47:04SpeakerMy understanding is that people, Spend somewhere between a quarter and up to three quarters for a glass or ceramic tip. And I'm talking average price point in Canadian dollars is somewhere in the 25 cent to 75 cent range, depending on the quality, size, weight, whatever of the glass ceramic thing. So when you're buying that, you're getting a different mouthfeel. You're getting a different draw experience. But unless it's got some kind of charcoal in it, generally speaking, those things have no filtration.

2:47:39SpeakerSo we're out here selling Pureflow for less than 20 cents Canadian. So the key is it's less expensive than the alternative, but there's an actual benefit that there's a harm reduction Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

2:48:23KyleThank you so much for joining us today.

2:48:53SpeakerPackaging, you know, packing peanuts because you don't want to put all this effort and money and work into this last tip product for it to just be broken by the time they open it.

2:49:06KyleYeah, or thrown on the ground and broken. When it comes to biodegradability, glass tips, in my opinion, are a hazard. People tend to obviously throw away their roaches. And the amount of times that I've seen people smoke a glass tip joint and just be like, boop, and just throw it on the ground. It's like painfully irresponsible when I see that. But there's, you know, so many factors involved.

2:49:26Kylebasically my deciding factor to commercialize the pure flow was the fact that it has an actual function like some sort of effect other than just allowing the smoke to pass through it and uh you know it could be called a gimmick or you know whatever the fact is it's something new it's um something that's kind of pushing filter design and i'm excited to Thank you for joining us today.

2:50:05SpeakerNow, now this is maybe a little bit different for the knockbox users, but for folks who are using automation and just for context, I said that we do four to five million pre-rolls a month. That is a fact. We also do not use any automation or any vibration.

2:50:21KyleThat's crazy.

2:50:24SpeakerLike I said, I welcome you to our facility. It's mi casa, su casa. But what's really neat about that product is the shape of the filter has not tried to be something that it wasn't or try to change the name of the game. Right. That filter is following the same standard product design that we're already seeing in markets. So as far as commercializing it goes, it becomes a whole lot easier than, say, one of these, you know, as an example, like, you know, the bullet filters or those tube filters or whatever, which for a lot of folks are going to require additional tooling.

2:51:06SpeakerAnd when you're talking about the Thank you so much for joining us.

2:51:19SpeakerLaunching a new format typically comes with tooling costs and changing processes or whatever it is. And you need the volume to justify the investment. Whereas with this product, it's quite interesting because this is going to fit into whether it's if anybody who's watching or anybody who's interested runs Automations like pre-rollers or the hummingbird or the, you know, or, or the wanna roll or the, the, the roll pro or whatever the, Or all the way through to the knockbox.

2:51:57SpeakerHephaestus. It's or the Hephaestus. Yes, it's going to work, right? It's going to work with all of these different systems that are already there. It would probably work with the way that we make joints as well. And, you know, we're going to definitely do some samples, do some trials, and we're excited to see how that goes. Did you did you end up in having another one before you got back here?

2:52:23SpeakerOh. I had one to say. Yes. That's a short answer. Yes. Yes, I did. The situation here with this Pureflow is that it's available and the team is trained to create them. So again, we are launching the product out in Toronto at Grow Up Conference.

2:52:47BubblemanAre you going to be giving joints away?

2:52:50SpeakerWell, that's up to Creed. Interesting. He stepped out for a second.

2:52:55BubblemanYou can in Canada. You could give joints away, right?

2:52:58KyleThat's legal. I'll be giving a shit ton of joints away.

2:53:03BubblemanHell yeah.

2:53:04SpeakerI'm a non-plant touching business, so I can't be giving any joints away. It's actually a lot easier for you than it is for a cannabis brand because you can just make them yourself and you're there to talk about the delivery method. Whereas a cannabis brand who's advertising their product has to collect, you know, has to give out excised units, keep the receipts, report it to Health Canada.

2:53:33SpeakerIt's not like... Can you give one to one? You can just give... We're still allowed to share medicine with our fellow man. There's no profit involved. So it's actually... Thank you so much for joining us.

2:54:07SpeakerHealth Canada has really raised the standard for what, you know, I mean, listen, it used to be as simple as showing up at these shows with a bag of joints and handing them out. And, uh, You know, then it turned into it had to be fully packaged product. Then that was not economical, right? With excise and all of that. Then you need to, you know, then you needed to, you couldn't even pull out your own product.

2:54:31SpeakerYou needed to go buy it from a store and have the receipt so you could then show to Health Canada that this was compliant. But like there were so many different challenges. So what I was saying is that as a paper company, as a delivery method, and disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer. So... Thanks for pointing that out. You know, you use this information to your own, you know, according to...

2:54:58SpeakerBut there's, you know, for me as an individual who has a bag of weed or a bag of joints or whatever it is to share them with my friends, there's no real prohibition. It's like giving someone a beer. You're not gonna, I'm not selling it to you. I'm not advertising it to you. And what's in it is not, in this case, in your case, Kyle, is not about The weed that's inside, it's about the delivery method.

2:55:24SpeakerAnd that's what you're there to talk about. So you put your own homegrown or purchased weed or whatever it is into these joints. You make them however you make them. You can give them away. As far as I understand it, you know, that's there's there's nothing that's not compliant about that because you're not a cannabis brand advertising cannabis products to consumers. This is something I would really like to touch upon, Adam, is that the fact of the matter is, is Everyone knows smoking a joint is subjective and the weed, the strain, the feeling, the entourage, whatever you call it, is different.

2:56:00SpeakerIt's subjective for every single person. So I believe Creed mentioned there will be some rolled joints at the show, you know, but I'm planning to roll a couple myself. That's it's that easy, right? So if you come by booth 407 at Grow Up, what we've done at FTLD is we've created a sample tube and there's six joints in it and we call it the sidewalk test tube.

2:56:29SpeakerAnd so it's a sidewalk test tube. Inside that tube are four pure flow joints and two regular joints empty. And this is for us to give to the public because a lot of the public carry their own weed and then they can roll their own joint. But The sidewalk test, we want people to pack the same weed into the pure flow filter joint and then the regular joint and then do the sidewalk test.

2:56:55SpeakerBecause when you smoke a regular joint next to a pure flow joint at the same time, that's when you really notice the difference and you get these kind of aha moments. And so please come by booth 407. There will be empty joints available because it's just paper and filter. So on your request, Kyle, I just completed my sidewalk test of a side-by-side comparison where all other components of the joint were the same, right?

2:57:24SpeakerI used the same material, ground the same. I rolled, you know, packed them the same. I did it at the same time. And, you know, before I even smoked it, the first thing that I did notice is what Creed had mentioned, that The filter itself is surprisingly rigid, you know, compared to the cardboard filter joint right away. And I don't know, I'm a weirdo like that. I will squish it, you know, and in this case of the weed that I rolled, it wasn't too much of a factor or hindrance or anything.

2:58:01SpeakerI was still able to smoke the joint all the way through. I did find the Stellar J more enjoyable experience, especially at the Beginning of the smoking of the joint. I was, I don't know if I'm just like convinced on some type of placebo effect or something, but I was almost surprised at first where I did kind of feel like it almost maybe does taste a little better, you know?

2:58:28SpeakerBecause that was one of those things I was like, okay, sure, the flow, whatever. But like, were you really going to enjoy a better flavor or something?

2:58:38KyleThe reality of it is it's next to impossible to remove undesirables without removing some desirables. And I'm not making any specific or special or outrageous claims that it makes it better. In my opinion, it's a different experience. And on my palate, when I smoke it specifically, I notice way less of this kind of tarry, ashy, resinous flavor, especially down towards the end of it. It's a smoother, more regulated experience.

2:59:11KyleAnd like I said, it offers consistency where I find some cardboard filters or other filters in general, they still have like unregulated airflow paths. And having that one center small hole in the biomass side of the filter, I think regulates the direction of the airflow a lot and stops it from going down side paths on the joints.

2:59:35SpeakerAnd you learn a lot from looking through the cone on both sides, because the first time I grabbed it and, you know, some other people looked at the first comment was, oh, you're going to you're going to get, you know, particulate come through or whatever. And you really realize how well it works when you look through the top of the cone side and you can see, well, there actually is a floor Or like a ceiling to where the filter itself starts, right?

3:00:07SpeakerAnd you can see that the hole at the top there is only like a small portion of the total footprint of the head of the filter, right? So yeah, as long as, like we were talking about earlier in this cast about, it was just like having your particulate size right in your grind. Having proper moisture still in the cannabis so that it'll have some type of, you know, stick-to-itiveness, right?

3:00:38SpeakerAnd then, you know, like through a hummingbird or the right machine, getting the right compression or, you know, compaction of that busted flower into the cone. That's the magic formula.

3:00:52KyleYeah, you can't just stuff it in there. And I get it. And like, Chad's not wrong. The majority of pre-rolls are definitely booth. You know, like, I stand on that for sure. But, you know, we're making an effort to change it from the inside. Like, I only want to smoke good products and I want to be able to smoke all the products that I make. You know, it's like I'm at all these trade shows and I'm putting like my face on these products.

3:01:18KyleYou know, I'm standing on business with these products. So I don't really have the luxury of making like black products. And yeah, anyways, that's the goal.

3:01:29SpeakerI think Adam touched upon this earlier is like if every joint was an expression from the maker to the person who's going to enjoy it on the other end, like if you put out 100,000 joints, is joint 342 going to be the same as joint 79,821?

3:01:49Kyle100,000 joints is 100,000 experiences. And it's very difficult to regulate that. And it's also a lot of pressure to commercialize a product that you think is going to be a consistent experience is near impossible. It's like trying to control every variable In a very organic and like you said subjective experience is like you're just not going to please everybody and it's a lot of pressure and I take it very seriously and very personally and bad bad reviews like affect me and the way I think about the products that I design so like I said I don't have the luxury of just like being like oh yeah fuck it whatever put it in the cone and send it out you know it's like it's not my intentions in this industry at all.

3:02:31SpeakerWell, I will say not to, you know, pump what we do here, but if I may for a second, you know, if anybody is, listen, you're absolutely right. Like, the reason that guys like us exist is because it's very challenging to hit that degree of consistency. The thing that, you know, there's lots that I'm proud of that we do, but I look at our retention vault, which is what needs, you know, typically this is where your rejects are going to go because they get to sit for two years past the last day to sell, whatever it is.

3:03:10SpeakerEverything that comes off of our line looks the same. And for anybody who's struggling with getting consistent product out, and I know that there's lots because, again, that is the core of what we do. Give us a call because we're happy to help. We may make... We may make the volume that we do, but we also do, you know, just for context, we do hand rolled two gram rosin core hash holes, right, with a glass tip.

3:03:49SpeakerSo we do everything from super commercial, high volume runs all the way through to some of the some of the best Growers in the, in the country who really want to focus on what they do best, which is cultivation and maximizing expression. And, and it'll, and they work with someone with, with partners like us who can help pair that, that level of passion that they have about cultivation.

3:04:16SpeakerWe have about making a consistent, a consistent and enjoyable product. So. I think we've got a couple folks on the panel here that specialize in that, or we've got a quality assurance one, and we've got a hands-on one, and I'm really loving how this is coming together. I think when you were away, Adam, we did touch upon a low cost entry point device and like you said, maybe automate where automation makes sense.

3:04:45SpeakerI would say that the Hummingbird system is semi-automated because it's still a lot of hands-on packing and weighing and making sure that you've got everything just right so that when you drop it in the machine to spin, it's going to come out right and then come out consistently. But I can't wait to see your facility, Adam. Yeah, I would say that just, again, what I mean by no automation, I mean the way that we make joints, it doesn't even plug into the wall.

3:05:16SpeakerRight. So it's hands. It's hands.

3:05:22SpeakerIt's passion. How big is the team?

3:05:26KyleHow many people?

3:05:26SpeakerHow big is the team? Good question. Our team varies and it scales based on what we're doing in a given month. So when you're doing 4 million joints in a month. I'll tell you right now, right now, we're employing 150 people. Yeah, I bet. Wow. So, and you know what, like, it's, it's, it's a real privilege to do so because these guys care tremendously about what they do.

3:05:55SpeakerThey, they, we have a team that, Eats, sleeps, dreams, bleeds, pre-roll manufacturing. But that really, guys, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. That's the secret sauce. That is 100% the secret sauce is having a team of people who care. And I was listening to it before. You know, it's hard. I'm not going to lie. It's hard to create a viable business when you're doing it, you know, one pre-roll at a time, if you will.

3:06:40SpeakerAnd the only way that we...

3:06:46SpeakerAny of us are going to get there is by having that passion and having people who care tremendously about what they do because it's a complicated, we always would call it deceptively simple, right? It couldn't be so hard. You just put the weed in the cone, right?

3:07:04KyleAnd it's not even just the people that are hands-on with the cannabis. Like the team is so massive and so important to the infrastructure that it's like, yeah like someone like me has no chance without a very dedicated team of like specialized individuals who really really care about what they're doing and like i've not seen an lp succeed at all without people who are like Very specialized in their, you know, corner of cannabis and whether it's like accounting or bookkeeping or managing any aspect of it, distribution, fucking stock, it doesn't matter.

3:07:42KyleAnyways, shout out to everybody in every position that contributes to the machine.

3:07:48SpeakerI will say that we are expanding and we are hiring. So for anybody who's in the comments or anybody who's reading or following along here,

3:08:01SpeakerWhere is your facility? We're in Vaughan, Ontario. It's not Vaughan? Vaughan, Vaughan. Oh, okay. I thought it was Vaughan. I'm from BC, so I've been outside.

3:08:15KyleHe's trolling. Kyle's a professional troll. This guy's always trolling.

3:08:19Collin PalmerHe's turning into Dutch real fast, you know? Vaughn, that's beautiful. It does sound Dutch.

3:08:28SpeakerTell us about Vaughn. I've never been there yet. It's like a commercial park. I wouldn't say it's the most exciting place. As a matter of fact, the municipality... All of that prevents dispensaries from being allowed to sell joints, or separate joints, sell weed. There's no dispensaries in Vaughan, which is an interesting thing. So we're, it's kind of like, I don't know if you've ever, if you knew that the Jack Daniel's distillery is in one of the last dry counties in the United States, which is, I've been there.

3:09:10SpeakerIt's a really cool tour. But you're not the only way that you're allowed to buy booze out of that distillery is if you get it engraved. So it's technically a gift or like it's not just a bottle of booze. Which again, it's, you know, even a hundred years after prohibition, they're still trying to find loopholes in how to, you know. Does that mean if I come, if I come visit you, you have to engrave a pack of joints?

3:09:42SpeakerIf you come visit me, Aaron, I'll engrave a pack of joints for you. All right, thank you. So Adam, if somebody wanted to make a West Coast cannabis cigar that comes in like a nice cedar box and and i heard you say two gram joint i thought that'd be over a hash hole would be over a thousand mig but what if you just have a three a 3.5 gram nice blunt in a cedar box eight blunts make an ounce could you do that uh listen We can do, tell you, we can do whatever you want to do.

3:10:15SpeakerIf your compliance team gives us the, is happy to sign off, then we're happy to help you make whatever you want.

3:10:22KyleThe truth is the market is so small for products like that. Like the market is a very small fraction for those kind of individual burgers for 80 bucks too.

3:10:31SpeakerDid you hear that? Yeah, but they only sold four of them. Yeah. You know, like, like meanwhile, how many $3 to your point earlier, How many $3 cheeseburgers sell, right? There's a reason that, you know, it's unfortunate. Again, I go back to it's unfortunate for the heady crowd who really cares about this kind of stuff. No, they just have to search a little harder, you know, and that's the whole point.

3:11:00SpeakerThat's fair. That's the same thing with going to like a high-end restaurant. You know, you're going to be driving further and looking harder for it, but when you find it, you're going to enjoy it. But you're right. You're right. On average, oh man, those $3 cheeseburgers are just flying. You know, they're tasty too. Right?

3:11:24SpeakerI like the cheeseburger analogy, Aaron. Thank you for that. Because I think too often people default to come up with alcohol analogies. And, you know, it's like, let's distance ourselves from alcohol and cigarettes and tobacco and Let's find new ways to talk about cannabis and how we enjoy it and how we consume it and how we share it with others, you know? It's all about trying to put your best foot forward in any situation that you're in.

3:11:48SpeakerSo even if you're doing a $3 cheeseburger per se, it's about making the best $3 cheeseburger so you can set yourself apart from everybody else. You might even use real cheese.

3:12:02SpeakerWell, and also making sure that that cheeseburger isn't like, Yep. I agree 100%.

3:12:25SpeakerMcDonald's has over something trillion served. Well, you know, and but but that's not by accident, right? It's not by accident. Sorry. Oh, that's that's that's that's that's not an accident. They understood that consistency in delivery is and obviously the convenience factor, the convenience factor is a given. But there's lots of people who are in the fast food game. There's very few where you can go anywhere around the world and a Big Mac's a Big Mac.

3:13:02SpeakerWell, and the consumer deserves consistency. And I don't think that we should say that we can't deliver that in the cannabis industry just because we're dealing with an organic plant. Like, I know in my early days, I was doing hydrocarbon extraction before I got into solventless. We used to always make this super lemon haze from the same grower and you know for the longest time it was super consistent in terms of like yield our yield percentage yield was like within a single percentage point for like multiple years but then eventually it did you know start Deteriorating a little bit.

3:13:45SpeakerI don't know if it was genetic drift. I don't know. Maybe the guy wasn't replacing the bulbs in his grow. You never know. I don't, you know, genetic drift is a whole nother story that we could talk about or whatever. I'm not in any way a weed scientist on that level. But like, I think there's something to be said about the consistency of when I go and look for specific strains, like a violator cush, I have a very specific Idea in my head of what it should taste like, what it should smell like, what my experience consuming it should be like.

3:14:23SpeakerAnd when we talk about also rec consumers versus medical consumers or medical patients who are trying to treat themselves like they want a consistent product time after time. And I think that, again, we were poo pooing COAs at the very beginning of this episode. You're wearing a High North hoodie, you know, like I, that is some weed science that I do enjoy a nerd out on, you know, like I do appreciate the fact that, you know, for Canadian labs, High North does its best to try and test for more terpenes than anyone else, right?

3:15:01SpeakerAnd, and Marcus, you're right. It's not just terpenes, it's esters and everything else that add to that. But But yeah, I do believe, especially with advances in modern technology, that we should be able to mass produce certain products, joints, for example, and try and have them consistent over years. I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm saying people want it, consumers want it, the community wants it. And I think we have the ability to deliver.

3:15:36SpeakerAnd I think any advancements that we can do in In the form that we deliver it or the techniques that we use to produce it are just going to benefit us all.

3:15:50KyleCOAs are incredibly important when it comes to data aggregation and analysis. Without COAs, I don't think we'd be at the state that we are now. It's the only method. As long as you trust your lab and you're getting accurate samples and you demand um super low limits of quantification and stuff like that you can you can you know use it to steer your products in the exact direction that you want you know you can essentially engineer them in any way or form possible and i think that's the key to like incredibly consistent experiences And it does deviate from, you know, the purist ideology that we tend to have, especially, you know, hash purists or people that are very focused on cultivars specific expressions.

3:16:38KyleThat stuff's all, you know, amazing and I love it too. But like you said, when it comes to a replicatable experience and something that's, you know, commercially viable, you have to go deep deep into the coas and get a massive like volume a library so you can see trends and you have the ability to like you said notice and understand why cultivar potencies are dropping or yields are dropping or the uh you know cannabinoid spectrum in that specific cultivar that you're very familiar with is all of a sudden changing or you know yeah

3:17:10Collin PalmerSorry, Colin, go ahead. Yeah, I just want to make it clear that we weren't poo-pooing them. I think we were highlighting some of the inherent issues with relying on TAC as a mechanism to buy a product in a retail environment. And I think there's a distinction here that we should make that COAs are incredibly important for standardization and understanding under the hood, like, does it have a lot of heavy metals?

3:17:41Collin PalmerLike, as someone who grows organic cannabis, like, it's a guiding light to have soil tests and COAs and Be able to look at what is there, you know, because you don't know until you know. And to your point, you know, it's how are you going to get a good insight into how your product is going to be standardized if you're doing big lots or whatever. But but that's, you know, and bacteria, right?

3:18:08Collin PalmerLike we want to make sure there's no mold or whatever have you. But yeah, I just want to make sure that we understand there's a... It's a double-edged sword because we then... Have turned around and brought it to the consumer and we haven't really explained, you know, this whole idea of what a COA actually is. And I think we've incorporated things like TAC and allowed that to kind of lead in terms of quality and why I've had buyer, you know, customers tell me like, I don't buy anything below 32%.

3:18:45Collin PalmerIt's, you know what I mean? It's just bizarre. It's a bizarre comment. It's a bizarre comment. Like, you know, rightfully so though, but they, but in their world, they're, they are right. You know what I mean? Like they're, they're. What am I going to argue with there? You know what I mean?

3:19:05KyleAt a certain point, it causes somewhat of like a potency space race, like where everyone's just, you know, trying to max out potency and the parameters of like an HPLC or like a spectral analysis can be tuned to like always go to the high end of the percentage range, you know, and, uh, There's tons of little tricks and things that labs will do or that you can request a lab to do in order to move your biomass.

3:19:30KyleThat's a huge portion. Exactly. When they're moving these big lots of biomass, they're obviously going to use ground mugs, take selected samples, do all this shit to represent a lot that is probably way below that.

3:19:45Collin PalmerI encourage buyers to try to buy lower-tech flour. See how that does for you. I think you're going to surprise yourself.

3:19:57SpeakerI think you guys are really... Everybody is correct here. The COAs are exactly a double-edged sword. We've seen it. They... When stuff doesn't hit potency because it needs to hit some target potency for the brand to sell it at the velocity that they need to, it creates challenges. It creates challenges in the supply chain. It creates downward pressure on pricing. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:20:57SpeakerYou know, the sort of banana story, right? Yeah, exactly. And the sad part is, as we said, and it's not to slam the use of COAs, the COAs are highly important for a understanding, you know, soil biology and all of the different, um, Thank you for joining us today.

3:21:38SpeakerRight. The COA should have never been used as a marketing tool. Those numbers that are on every package that's sold in cannabis, as far as THC and CBD content, like people don't even understand what it means because it's it's number relative to the quantity of other

3:22:00SpeakerOther cannabinoids, the volatiles, as Marcus appropriately calls them, that determines the experience far more than just the single number. Anybody who has smoked pure THCA diamonds, which I bet everybody on this call has, or everybody on this has, would know that that is a burn right here. It's single directional, right? And it's, it's, it's, it's, you talked about the entourage effect.

3:22:30KyleIt's just boring. It's boring. Yeah, it's boring.

3:22:32SpeakerAnd that's, that's why the, everybody talks about this entourage effect, because it's not just the THC, the CBD, it's how it interacts with the different array of cannabinoids, you know, esters, aldehydes. Files and terpenes and all of these other compounds that that ultimately creates the experience that's either desirable or not desirable. And so the way that I, you know, in a perfect world, in my mind, weed would just be, you know, low potency, medium potency and high potency and maybe very high potency.

3:23:09Collin PalmerWhat are we all here, guys? This is 18% right here. This is kind of my point. We're in Canada. It's not like that, Colin. It's different up here.

3:23:19BubblemanAnd I will say one of the main differences is that we can't even look at the, you know, for the longest time, you couldn't even look through the package. You couldn't smell. You couldn't see anything. So it inevitably became about price and THC percentage.

3:23:32SpeakerHow many of the brands have already switched to window bags? I'm not in retail. I wouldn't know.

3:23:37Collin PalmerSo is it still like that now, Marcus?

3:23:41SpeakerThey just allowed a window on the bag so you can have a portion of your bag that's translucent. You can look through the bag and see the weed now. That's like in the last nine months or something. But I just want to ask, what if it is we're chasing the wrong number? Like somebody saying the customer wants only 32% THC 2009, but how many people on this panel have had the good fortune to smoke THCV flour, a flour high in THCV?

3:24:12SpeakerAnd I find that to be magically uplifting, almost clairvoyant. Like you've seen that movie Limitless. That's how THCV makes me feel. And so why the hell would you want 32% THC Delta-9 when you could have a 10-10 or a 12-12 and have a magical experience?

3:24:34KyleSo here's about to start selling THCV isolate over here.

3:24:38Collin PalmerYeah, I mean, you're not wrong of what you're saying, Kyle, like in terms of how it makes you feel the issue. I mean, I'm I very much share your same sentiment. It's an amazing experience, but it's extremely hard to convince the masses that they need that in their quiver. You know, it's it's it's been proven to be that way, actually. You know, but it's an amazing, you know, like other cannabinoids, there's others, you know, other other stacks that you can make that'll do that same thing.

3:25:12Collin PalmerRight. In terms of how it makes you function. But, you know, just getting that to the masses has been proven to be tough.

3:25:20SpeakerBut I'm curious in Canada, like I don't have an option to go to all the stores and see all the brands, but maybe Shelson or Adam have either of you guys, what percentage of your clients that you roll for Are rolling by formulated cannabinoid concentrations? Are they rolling CBG, CBD, THCV? How much of this are you seeing in the market? Honestly, I see everything. There's all types of ratios and variations that depend on the customer, what the customer wants.

3:25:54SpeakerCBD is honestly rare. In my experience, yeah, it's not very often. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:26:28SpeakerYeah, I think that it's mostly THC-focused products. Yeah. Are you guys seeing a lot of... Oh, sorry. Sorry. No, go ahead. I was going to say, are you guys seeing a lot of people boasting terpenes? Yes. Yes, more now than before, for sure. Like, there was definitely very little talk about terpenes when we started up, but... Definitely, as of lately, there's been a lot more. I feel like the general public are starting to get more aware of like terpene profiles and things like that.

3:27:05SpeakerYeah, I think, I think sort of, you know, I like I agree with you that they understand that it's another one of those numbers that they don't understand, man. Like, you're right. They're looking for percentages. They're looking for a percentage. They don't know what and to be fair in Canada. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:27:51SpeakerThank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

3:28:18SpeakerThe way that the regulations are written, we're not allowed to do that. And there's no incentive financial or otherwise to do that because you can't make claims about it. What people understand about terpenes is not the relationship between beta-caryophyllene and lenolol, right? They care that it's over 2%. And the reality is, but to answer your question, What we're seeing is on packages of more premium brands, they will list the, almost everybody's listing terpene content, but you are seeing like actual top five terpenes and their percentages on certain premium branded products.

3:29:04SpeakerBut again, this appeals to what percentage of the market, because at the end of the day, they're going to come in and say, you know, when I buy weed, when I go to a dispensary and buy weed, I say, what is the highest expression? Like what, in your opinion, has got the best expression of whatever the hell it's trying to be? And the bud tender sometimes looks at me funny.

3:29:25SpeakerAdam, like the five to ten. It's like expression?

3:29:30Collin PalmerYeah, I mean, that's the five to 10 terpenes thing, I believe is really part of our regulation in our state systems down here in the US. I actually have to list like the top five.

3:29:44SpeakerWell, I would, I would, I mean, frankly, that would be a good thing. I mean, that's, that's more information and it's not necessarily, it's not necessarily about the quantity. It's about what, you know, maybe I can recognize that these, when I see these names, I get tired. Right. And the customer can make that association in their head. But, but again, we're not allowed to say that these, these do that.

3:30:10SpeakerRight. What claims are you making? None.

3:30:14Collin PalmerWe can educate the listeners and even myself here because I'm not familiar with the rules and regs in Canada. As I said before, I have a license in the United States, so it's just a different world for us. I mean, I do have a CGMP lab, right? We are audited. There's that. We do share that. But, you know, it seems like it's just a very different beast, you know.

3:30:42SpeakerYou can't make really any claims. The marketing regulations and restrictions in Canada are crazy. Like if you have a SKU that has like a name that could be like, I don't know, tempting for a kid. They're like, no, that's like not allowed or like. You guys have a lot of brands that have like cartoon or like animations on like the brand and the tubes and whatever. We can't have that.

3:31:11SpeakerLike there's a brand that is in the U.S. and in Canada and their like packaging looks different than our packaging because ours has like less things because of the restrictions. The exact same product. Are you talking about Jeter? Yes, I am. I actually have a funny story about that. When we had pinners on the shelf, we had, and I got to remember because it's been a while, but we tried to launch a product called Pinners Supernova Thunder Punch.

3:31:48SpeakerOkay, and it was going to be a bubble hash infused pinner. And... Health Canada flagged the word Thunder Punch because it was something related to Pikachu. Wow. So we had to pull the term Thunder Punch and we launched Pinners Supernova, but they were originally supposed to be called Supernova Thunder Punch. We had a product, a status product, we were coming up with, I think it was a vape, and it was originally supposed to, like, what?

3:32:24SpeakerThey wanted to call it was Great Blast Fizzy Pops, but Help Canada flagged the Fizzy Pops because that's like, I don't know exactly why, but we also had to just put it Great Blast. What is the length of time to get these things approved even? It takes a really long time because you have to put it in an NCP and that always takes 60 days minimum. And that's a federal thing, right, Shelton?

3:32:54SpeakerRight. And then you have to like, if you have to go back and forth, that like takes a while sometimes. Oh man. So you might, you might have product that you want to put out that you don't even have a name for. Not an approved one. Yeah. You don't know if it's going to get approved.

3:33:10KyleYeah. When you submit to the province, if they have concerns about like, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

3:33:44SpeakerLike that's not compliant because that's for kids. You can't put out a gummy worm. So instead you've got these guys who are creating new molds that never existed before because you're creating them for products where you have these compliance issues where you've got gummy, you know, a little stack of gummy lines. And they're called sticks or whatever. And why? Because the gummy might appeal to a kid.

3:34:13SpeakerLike, I, but so. I would think, yeah, I would think that that, that's the, yeah, okay. The dispensary is a problem at that point, you know? Like, you make sure that you don't sell it to a child. You make sure that it doesn't, yeah. All right, keep going. But at the same time, I just. You come up here and take over. I'm just saying, oh man, that's pretty rough there because... That's a bad joke right now, Robbie, okay?

3:34:38SpeakerYou're living in Alberta too, come on now. Freezies were pulled off the shelf. I know that you guys have freezies in California. I went to...

3:34:52SpeakerOne of the conferences there, I can't remember. But I remember there were samples and I got a box of these freezies and I was so excited to take them back home with me. And I left them in the freezer in the hotel because who checks the freezer before they leave? But we were supposed to, not we, Joint Craft.

3:35:09BubblemanI do, but only because I leave my dabs there to maintain the cold supply chain.

3:35:17SpeakerSo, so I mean, I have a question like, okay, there's a company out of Michigan that I work with called Lion Labs and they do these pot pots things, right? I just met them. Oh, really? Right on.

3:35:35BubblemanYeah, I was at the exchange in Lansing on just like a couple weeks ago. They gave me the pot pots. I really like those.

3:35:42SpeakerOh my gosh. I was there too. I don't know how we missed each other.

3:35:44BubblemanI had a huge booth. I was with Yield Distro when you walked right in the front and there was like those 10 booths like right in the front.

3:35:51SpeakerNo, they gave us some spot in the back. I don't know.

3:35:55BubblemanWhat is this pot pot?

3:35:58SpeakerYeah, go on.

3:35:59BubblemanTell us about pot pots.

3:36:00SpeakerIt's basically a dead-on... M&M. Or Smartie. Or Smartie, yeah. It's like, yeah, for you guys, Smarties, yeah. But it's a chocolate-covered candy that, like, you know, a thin shell. It looks dead on like any other candy in the market. Tastes exactly like them. And, I mean, they're crushing it. They also just put out something called Pixels, which is, you guys have nerds up there, right? Yeah. It's dead on the same shape, taste profile, everything.

3:36:34SpeakerAnd you guys wouldn't be able to do that because of the shape and taste.

3:36:38BubblemanOh yeah, you can't market to children, period. But the cool thing about pot pots is that they're one milligram in a marketplace where it's near impossible to find a 10 milligram gummy. In fact, all the bud tanners will be just like, oh, just cut it in half. And I'm like, most people are like, what, like 20 times? Like it's a 50 milligram or a? All the packs are 200 milligrams.

3:36:58BubblemanYou go to any store and there's literally like a hundred different packs of gummies, all 200 milligrams. Very few people at stores could find me a 10 milligram gummy. And so when I bumped into the Pop Pot girls there, I was like, fucking A, that's awesome.

3:37:15SpeakerNo, and you know what? I went to their spot. These guys, it was like going to Jurassic Park. It was like, I spared no expense. Like it was dead on the, like the actual machinery, the confectionery machinery to produce, you know, Smarties and whatnot. Like, I mean like gigantic long conveyor belts for cooling. It was, it was well, well put together. I was super impressed. Yeah. They're, they're one of those companies that like, I'm like, wow, these guys, these guys have, have figured it out.

3:37:53SpeakerAnd yeah, If they keep pushing, they're going to be a big name, you know? No doubt. Yeah.

3:38:02KyleI'm also involved in large-scale gummy production. That's like low-key the actual bread and butter at my lab and my brand biggies. It's like a live resin input only and really diverse cannabinoids, lots of CBGs and CBCs and all sorts of stuff like that. But yeah, it's a massive undertaking and the amount of like automation and equipment to do it properly is quite wild.

3:38:30SpeakerDo you have any crazy flavor profiles right now?

3:38:35KyleYeah, we're doing lots of interesting things. We have one that we're calling Peach Lime Fizz. That's kind of like a tangy pop. We have some dragon fruit ones. We did a matcha latte last year. It wasn't a success. Very polarizing flavor for sure. Yeah, we got lots of different things.

3:38:57SpeakerOrange Creamsicle, that's the main one. Tell us about the three different formulations you put into PureFlow. And the three names of those?

3:39:07KyleThe three names? Oh, the ones I have commercialized currently, I have a tangerine dream, I have an ice cream cake, and then I have one that has a small percentage of botanical terps in it called blueberry ice. And that's, you know, to appeal to a different market. And then I have in Toronto, I have a one gram island pink kush infused pre-roll that's coming to central distribution.

3:39:32KyleAnd the ice cream cake as well is going out east. But yeah, that's all true to strain, like kind of single source or at least like vertically integrated source where it's like the same flour extracted into, you know, two fractions and then re-added together to meet like an engineered potency call out. But I love them. I smoke them all the time myself. And I'm like a religious dabber, like a full-time oil consumer.

3:39:56KyleAnd it's essentially reignited my love for smoking joints now. Puffing down. Can I ask you a question?

3:40:01SpeakerHow do you, how do you, how are you doing your, if you don't mind me, I'm not looking for your secret sauce.

3:40:07KyleNo, no, I'm an open book, man.

3:40:10SpeakerWhen you, when you're making your infusion, how are you homogenizing your cannabis?

3:40:16KyleBy hand. Really? Even on a large scale, it's the only way to like not over pulverize or continuously mill the flower down. You know, there's so many different methods that I've tried and used. Centrifuge is good, to be honest with you. I think your hummingbird could easily double as like a centrifuge for infusing biomass. I like to do it by hand. I'm very hands-on. It's got to be craft and I need to feel the texture of the mill.

3:40:46KyleI'm milling into different sizes and then re-adding them back together to create an even spectrum of some finer mill and some more coarse mill. And I think that particle variety is one of the unique parts of why the airflow is so consistent and the burn is so even. And like you said, temperature of the burn is so important. If you're packing them really tight or if the particle size is all very small, it burns at an incredibly hot temperature.

3:41:12SpeakerWell, that's awesome, man. Yeah, no, I like that you're using every different part of the plant and then putting it back, you know?

3:41:20KyleYou know, like I said, you kind of have to work with the building blocks in order to meet your call outs too. I mean, if you want to hit your max potency call out, which in Canada for concentrates is a thousand milligrams per package, you have to get very creative in order to like maximize the amount of THC you're allowed to put in there while still creating like a enjoyable product.

3:41:42SpeakerI'm just thinking about how valuable those hands are.

3:41:45KyleOh man, it's like the only way, like I just, I also just love weed, like I'm a weed nerd, you know, so playing with weed all day isn't bad. I'm not milling by hand by any means, I'm definitely not milling by hand.

3:42:02SpeakerAll right, does it get to the consistency of, I like to say kinetic sand?

3:42:09KyleYes, of course. Yeah, that's kind of a sweet spot. Yeah, it's like, especially that. Yeah, it's incredibly fun to play with. But yeah, that's a sweet spot.

3:42:18SpeakerYou make it into a dinosaur and then it just kind of melts away.

3:42:21KyleYeah, exactly. A lot of these joints are over infused in order to meet that max potency call out. They'll just put distillate in it and blend it with some garbage and send it out the door. But There's a lot that goes into making, you know, a pre-roll that's enjoyable to consume and distillate is definitely not on the menu of those things for sure. My facility is like a no distillate facility.

3:42:42BubblemanWhat about Rosalit? Are you using Rosalit? What?

3:42:46KyleDefinitely not. Definitely not. Although distilling.

3:42:51BubblemanI heard it twice in Colorado in the last couple of weeks. No, no. They're actually saying that? They're actually doing it. Well, yeah, like 10% rosin into 90% distillate. So you've got a label.

3:43:08SpeakerIt's a label claim exercise. So you get to say that your product is a rosin product. Rosin infused. I want to thank you, Robbie, earlier for giving us a report on the sidewalk. That was really nice. And then unfortunately, Colin and Aaron both didn't get pure flow samples. But one of the panelists that did get The Pure Flow is our chairman of the board here, Bubble Man.

3:43:35SpeakerYou got those a couple days ago. I'd like to ask you if you've noticed anything different when you smoked a Pure Flow joint rather than any other cone you might have come across.

3:43:47BubblemanWell, I don't smoke cones generally at all, meaning I don't think I've really smoked any other cones. I've certainly never liked... I was even like, how the fuck am I supposed to pack this? My buddy's like, oh, you grind it up and put it in the top. I'm like, seriously? Like I couldn't wrap my head around it. It was kind of funny. I like being a noob in a sense.

3:44:04BubblemanSo all I really had to compare it to were my joints that I roll. I just roll joints. I don't put filters on. What I don't like in a filter, which is generally most filters, is they're like... It's just too big of a space. It's just too much air coming through. I prefer a little bit more of a reduction in my split because I grew up old school, didn't smoke joints for 30 years.

3:44:27BubblemanBut 30 years ago when I did smoke joints towards the end of my joint smoking career, certainly before my very large sabbatical from smoking joints, I've never really used filters. Maybe towards the end after some trips to Amsterdam, I kind of got inspired to do that. But I prefer a more, you know, more of a reduction than an opening. So I liked the Pureful. Like I said, I did pack a couple of them in a way where they got very, just really towards like, Adam Wendel, Edmonton, Like the end of the joint, you know, certainly not a lot, but right towards the end of the joint, you can even see how it's all sucked in across itself.

3:45:09BubblemanLike I haven't bent that that's just because it got so tight. It was sucking, you know, and I'm also using very, very like high grade herb that is probably You know, 28% THC, A or whatever. Like it's high THC. There's no doubt about it. It's very strong, gassy flour. It's very sticky. Yeah, I definitely noticed the taste.

3:45:34SpeakerYou mentioned earlier you're using the Crush grinder. I love the Crush.

3:45:38BubblemanI love this grinder.

3:45:39SpeakerTip of the hat to Justin over at Crush. I love it. But the thing is, if you're getting too fine of a grind, the Crush grinder, you only need to almost go twist, twist. That's it. So I'll play around it.

3:45:51BubblemanI'll experiment.

3:45:52SpeakerYou get that coarser grind.

3:45:54BubblemanThat's it.

3:45:55SpeakerJust full disclosure, Aaron, when we did the hummingbird test with Creed, I watched him burn through a pound with one of these. It took a while, Creed, but it was impressive, your dedication.

3:46:09KyleI have carpal tunnel now. I have carpal tunnel now.

3:46:13SpeakerYou will never be the same. Don't try this at home, kid.

3:46:17KyleDon't try it with a round grinder. The crush is very functional and it's like ergonomic.

3:46:23SpeakerI like that you can grab it. Yeah, actually. Oh, yeah. I was just looking at one of those. I was wondering... Yeah, he's got a spot.

3:46:30BubblemanHe's basically got a spot for your fingers when you spin it so that they don't hit each other. I love it. These little round spots actually make a lot of sense. I'm new to this joint smoking world again, but I will say that this Cube 2.0 is by far my favorite grinder.

3:46:52SpeakerYeah, big, big credit to Justin for, listen, we talk about what we do is difficult. Justin built a grinder brand in at a time that, you know, There were already a few brands and many of them have disappeared and Crush is still crushing it. They're distributed all over the world and he's done a really good job. It's really elegant design. What's nice about it is it kind of moved along with Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:47:32SpeakerWe're really excited to be here with you. We're really excited to be here with you. We're really excited to be here with you.

3:47:57SpeakerThe theme of the show is the art of the perfect pre-roll. And I think you touched upon this earlier, Colin, when you're talking about living soil organics and say, whatever, what happens after the seed to get that joint to the customer? And I'd add in sunshine if I could, you know, if it was sun-kissed LSO, whether there was a light assist in there or not, but as long as the sun got to touch the plant, I think that's pretty important.

3:48:26SpeakerAnd then the curing, you know, the harvesting and the curing and then the grinding and the care of the grind and that particle size. Take it away, Adam. What happens once you've got that particle size? The art of a perfect pre-roll. Well, I think controlling the environment becomes a really important factor, right? It's so easy once you grind up weed for that moisture. Like, you start at a clock.

3:48:54SpeakerRight? And moisture starts escaping. And what escapes with moisture, as we all know, are volatiles, are terpenes, are flavor, right? And understanding what the environmentals need to be and keeping your production space and maintaining your product all the way through the production cycle becomes critical to ensuring that when it ultimately gets to the customer, We as manufacturers, as participants in the space have done everything to maintain that product integrity all the way through.

3:49:33SpeakerFirst things first, you have to control your environmentals. Then, of course, you go through manufacturing. There's several different ways that you can manufacture joints. Between everybody here, we probably all do it differently, frankly. And listen, that's OK. But what I can see very clearly here is that everybody, at least on this call, does so with passion and does so with great care. At the very least, you know, we've all got that.

3:50:05SpeakerBut in our case, we... Grind up our weed. We control our environment. We pack our joints. We pack it consistently and very efficiently. And what ends up is a product that then needs to be packaged thoughtfully. And this comes down to what is the brand doing, right? Do they, you know, are they investing in airtight packaging? Are they investing in packaging that doesn't let the product rattle around?

3:50:34SpeakerWhatever it is, or vice versa. Are they using humidity packs? And everybody sort of has a different opinion about that. I'll let sort of Chad decide how they feel about humidity packs. I'm a bigger fan personally of just packaging properly and storing proper storage. But again,

3:50:55BubblemanI think it's an even deeper conversation, Adam. I think it has to do with bound and unbound water. And it gets deep. You're correct. Like it's a scientific discussion. It is not a simple. In fact, I have planned a very special bound and unbound water with the good folks at Canitral. David, he spent a lot of time with, he was in the charcuterie board industry. So believe it or not, meats and cheeses are also products that off gas flavorants and smells and odors and stuff.

3:51:30BubblemanSo he had to really learn about like, how do you, you know, how do you somehow in the best way make that so that shit's not all disappearing like really fast.

3:51:43KyleThese are craft products, you know, like fine wines and even well-brewed coffees. You know, there's so many aspects to it. It's incredibly nuanced. And yeah, I mean, I'm sure we can literally wax poetic about this forever. About the perfect pre-roll. I mean, what is the perfect pre-roll really?

3:52:04BubblemanLet's do it. Let's never stop. Let's go for the world record. Like seven years from now, we're all still going to be on this podcast. You know, one of the things we didn't talk about was the roux. And surprisingly enough, we haven't talked about the roux today here on the pre-roll joint. You guys must know the term roux, the ring of oil, R-O-O. Of course. The old roux.

3:52:25BubblemanWe should talk about roux. But before we talk about roux, I need to share this. Because it's cool.

3:52:32SpeakerYeah, exactly. That's sick.

3:52:35BubblemanI just made that while I was talking in chat, moderating the room, trimming my toenails. No, I'm just joking.

3:52:42SpeakerThat's sweet, dude.

3:52:46Collin PalmerWhen you put on a hat. I have a question on the filter aspect.

3:52:53BubblemanSorry, Colin, no questions today.

3:52:55Collin PalmerListen, I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to grill you right now. I'm just kidding. I just want to know, because you made a comment that it's filtering. What is it filtering? Just so we can understand that.

3:53:15SpeakerWell, I haven't. Had the great opportunity to conduct my own analysis. Not that I'm qualified or have the ability to do that. I'm talking about commissioning it at a...

3:53:30KyleI've dissected them and looked at them under microscope and analyzed them under microscope. And it's definitely pulling out mostly heavy tars, but there's a lot of fine particulate. You know, micron size biomass and some ash that is also kind of contained within the fibrous material surface. I wouldn't say so much it's filtering it because the smoke isn't actually passing through it as much as it is passing over the surface.

3:54:05SpeakerWhat we're going to ask now is that considering you've looked at that and you've witnessed that, Marcus, could you take a couple of those filters in your ashtray, cut them open? With a clean pair of scissors and take some macroscopic photography of what you see in that filter. Is that? I could snap a few pictures. What's the material of the filter made out of?

3:54:30KyleIt's a paper fiber. It's a shredded paper fiber and yeah, repressed.

3:54:35Collin PalmerIt'd be great to understand what is there just from a, you know, like a. It's like chemicals.

3:54:44KyleWe have COAs on the filter.

3:54:46SpeakerBut here's the thing, like, you know, the research I was talking about, Colin, like I do want to see eventually university level emissions analysis, white paper material going out about this filter. But what can you do in the meantime? Like between Creed and Marcus, we could put out a green paper pretty quick by the sounds of it.

3:55:07KyleLet's just smoke them. Smoking them is more fun.

3:55:13SpeakerSo, I mean, to the science of it, Colin, I'm not fully confident to talk on the material structure analysis and things like that. But what I've witnessed for myself is I did cut a couple open. And at that moment, I was like, I don't think I'm going to smoke regular joints anymore. Because I've been like you, Marcus, I've been rolling my own my whole life. And It takes too long to put a filter in it, so I just roll them.

3:55:43SpeakerBut now that I've seen the filter when I cut it open, I'm a father and I'm going to smoke Pureflow now.

3:55:51KyleThey swell quite a bit. You'll notice they become quite swollen after you peel the label back and take a look at it. It's expanding and it's absorbing. But like I said, it's impossible to remove undesirables without removing some desirables. I think it does change the experience a little bit. But in my opinion, it's positive. And like we were talking about before from a standardization kind of perspective, Outlook, it's one of the better options I've seen.

3:56:23SpeakerSorry, I just think that you should release this filter as just, you know, a hundred of them in a bag. Because the shape and the airflow, it's very cool. And, you know, I mean, if

3:56:41SpeakerI think about the filters you can buy for joints. You can buy, you know, a hundred like little paper filters in a bag and the kind of like the raw ones or you can get those, whatever. You can also get cigarette filters, a hundred of them in a bag. And, you know, people tried to do that and it sucked. Whatever. Even as a pre-roller, as a volume commercial manufacturer, I do believe that there will always be a market of people who do like to roll their own joints and prefer to roll their own joints.

3:57:14SpeakerI know that I'm one of them. So to be able to buy these and roll my own joint, I think there's probably a segment of the market there that is worth exploring because I would use this to roll joint like it does exactly what it's supposed to do. And if there is a scientific benefit, if there is a real health benefit to using these over any other filter, then then why wouldn't I buy 50 of these at a time or 100 of them at a time?

3:57:45SpeakerAnd keep it in my bag just like I would the little pack, the little like paper filter thing, right?

3:57:51Collin PalmerAnd or you can do your custom hand roll-esque machine roll pre-roll that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do because it's an all-in-one thing that you're offering now. Yeah.

3:58:04SpeakerThis is a brand new product. I'm not saying today. I'm not saying today. I appreciate that. And trust me, there's a lot of discussion about what different directions this product can go. But right now, focused on the B2B supply comb that's pre-manufactured, ready for hand filling or automation or semi-automation and everything in between. So we did get a full set of sample packs in finally a couple weeks back.

3:58:39SpeakerSo right now the product's offered in three paper types, which is white, brown, and organic hemp. And so the organic hemp is kind of like an off-white. It's a cream. I'd say it's in between white and brown. And then we're doing three standard sizes, which is the King 109, The medium 98 and the one Q84 with the 26 size filter. So that's one standard filter is available in three sizes and three paper types.

3:59:10SpeakerWe've got all the samples in stock in Vancouver, British Columbia. So all you got to do is reach out to us via the website or email or whatever we can do to get in touch with each other. And we're welcome to share samples far and wide. We want to get more and more feedback happening.

3:59:27BubblemanThat seems to be the magic bubble man right now is that is that what you're thinking you want to give some uh some packs away because i can you know we can we can do that real quick through nightbot here i can share the screen the only the only real trouble is is making sure when someone wins in the chat room that they send an email to an easy email not some complex super long email because We want them to be able to email right away saying I am so and so in the chat room.

4:00:00BubblemanThen I usually give them like a small sentence of words to say so I can confirm. Otherwise, anyone can email you and say I won on Bubble Man's World and I was, you know, Spencer, whatever. So should I put an email in the chat?

4:00:13SpeakerIs that what you're saying?

4:00:15BubblemanIf you want to give some of these away, yeah, just a simple email. Bingle will share it over and over again. And the rule is simple. I will throw up Nightbot. How we do it is basically the people who are chatting. Like right now, there's only six people since I started it because those are the only six people that have chatted. So each time someone posts a word in the chat, they get entered into this.

4:00:40BubblemanInto this.

4:00:42SpeakerThanks for joining, Colin. Really, really work. Nice working with you today.

4:00:48Collin PalmerPleasure. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me. And it's I can't wait to try it. And, you know, perhaps use it.

4:00:54SpeakerSo how about we make it real easy, Marcus? The first six people to email that email sales at Stellar Jays, Stellar Jays dot com is going to get a pack of organic hemp. 1Q pre-roll filters in the mail next week. So super easy. I appreciate that because we do want to.

4:01:13BubblemanWhat's the email again?

4:01:15SpeakerWe're going to talk about sales at StellarJs.com. So that's S-A-L-E-S, sales at Stellar, S-T-E-L-L-A-R-J-S.com.

4:01:28BubblemanPerfect. That's awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for coming out. That was a four hour solid conversation for Hash Church today on pre-rolled joints. I appreciate each and every one of you making the time. And, you know, this is every Sunday here. We do this, we get together and we go down the rabbit hole as deep as we possibly can go. And, you know, to be honest, Colin, you got to admit over the years, as many conversations as we had, I don't think we've ever had a conversation about joints the way we did today.

4:01:57BubblemanSo that was never cool. And I smoked a joint for the first time ever on Hash Church, which was also pretty cool.

4:02:02KyleYeah, I thought this was Hash Church, man. I thought we were going to be talking about fucking exotic melts and fucking rare.

4:02:08SpeakerI'm going to ask a quick one. I know we got to wrap up here, Marcus, but that logo you showed us, the deadhead crystal Hash Church, I'd like to get that on a t-shirt and on the back it says, I smoked a joint on Hash Church.

4:02:23BubblemanNice.

4:02:23SpeakerIf we could get 10 of those to distribute to this panel, that'd be pretty dope.

4:02:27BubblemanYeah, that wouldn't be bad at all.

4:02:30SpeakerI would wear one of those. Yeah, awesome. That's dope. That was a great logo. Yeah. You can do a lot with that. That's pretty cool.

4:02:41KyleAbsolutely. It's been a blast, guys. I got to sign off. But it's been great attending Hash Church for my first time. And thanks to everybody that contributed. It was a super dope conversation.

4:02:51BubblemanFour hours of Hash Church after nine hours of clubbing.

4:02:54SpeakerIt's really refreshing to talk to people who...

4:03:00SpeakerYou know, care and know what they're talking about. So really, I agree with you, Creed. Thank you. And Marcus, thank you for making this podcast possible. And Kyle, you know, for inviting me on. And guys, everybody, it was a real, it was a refreshing conversation.

4:03:17BubblemanAwesome, everybody. Have a good one. Thanks for coming on. See you next time on Hash Church.

4:03:28BubblemanRecording stopped.

4:03:29SpeakerRecording.