The Haze Episode

0:00BubblemanAll right, let's do this as well. Let's record this as well.

0:11BubblemanRecording in progress. Okay, welcome everybody. Ooh, I'm excited for this episode. I am not gonna lie. Welcome to Hash Church season 12, episode six. The Hayes episode. I'm not going to lie. I'm jacked for this episode. So excited to talk to you guys about Hayes today. Whole bunch of drama overnight. Managed to get it sorted out, figured out. I think we're good to go. As always, I would love to start the show as I always do by shouting out my sponsors because they're awesome and we love them.

0:53BubblemanSo let's see if we can't start with Our good friends at the Press Club. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, today's episode of Hash Church is proudly supported by the Press Club. Yeah, the Press Club. California Brothers obsessed with hash and everything solventless, just like us. Their journey didn't start as a business, it started as a family. Back in 2014, when a loved one wasn't finding relief through conventional medicine, they turned back to the plant.

1:23BubblemanThey respected their whole lives. They knew cannabis had medicinal power. But they needed something cleaner. That search led them to the solventless path, using nothing but water, heat, and pressure to let the plant express itself honestly. That light bulb moment turned into washing, pressing, experimenting, and eventually realizing how hard it was to find truly high quality rosin bags and solventless tools that were made in America and still affordable.

1:48BubblemanSo they did what real hash heads do. They built the solution themselves. The Press Club stands for clean process, conscious intention, and tools made by people who actually live this culture, not corporations chasing trends. We're very grateful to have the Press Club supporting Hash Church and the wider solventless community, family-run, purpose-driven, and rooted in why hash matters in the first place. Much love to the Press Club and thank you for supporting church.

2:11BubblemanYou guys can check them out at www.thepressclub.co. So yeah, go check them out. And at Hash Church, we talk a lot about ritual, respect for the plant and elevating the experience. And that's exactly why we're proud to be supported by Puffco. Puffco continues to set the standards for modern consumption with tools built for people who truly care about flavor, temperature, and intentional use. From the Puffco Peak Pro with the 3D XL Bowl, delivering consistent heat, bigger hits, and Unmatched volatile expression to the proxy, redefining modular ritual-based consumption in the pivot, bringing true Puffco performance into a compact everyday format.

2:50BubblemanThese aren't just gadgets, they're purpose-built tools for hash and solventless. We're genuinely grateful for Puffco's continued support of Hash Church, our guests, and our community. Their belief in education, culture, and quality helps us keep these conversations alive. You can support the brand that supports the culture. Visit www.puffco.com, explore their lineup, and experience what intentional design really feels like. Puffco, elevate the ritual. Who doesn't want to elevate the ritual?

3:19BubblemanAll right. Well, I'd be remiss to not mention my company. We wouldn't be here without the pioneers who helped define the solventless extraction, and bubble bags are a cornerstone of that history. Bubble bags helped introduce the world to ice water extraction, giving growers and hash makers a simple, effective way to separate resin using nothing but water, ice, and agitation. Decades later, our bags remain a trusted tool for people who care about purity, process, and tradition.

3:44BubblemanFrom home runs to professional washes, bubble bags continue to support true solventless craft, allowing the plant to speak for itself. We're proud to be supported by Bubble Bags and grateful for the ongoing support of Hash Church, our guests, and the global hash community. Our commitment to quality and accessibility has empowered generations of makers. You can support the brand that built the culture by visiting www.bubblebag.com. Explore their extraction bags and accessories and keep the solventless tradition alive.

4:10BubblemanBubble Bags, water, ice, hash. Yeah, baby. All right. Well, we have a new gentleman who signed up this year. Sorry that that picture is not as clear as it should be. Maybe we just got to make it a little smaller. Maybe not. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's how it is going to look. So Helio Supply is dedicated to offering innovative high quality vape hardware and accessories designed to enhance the consumption experience.

4:41BubblemanWhile maintaining discretion and performance, their product range focuses on precision voltage control, durable construction, and components that protect extracts from overheating. Allowing users to preserve flavor and efficiency on their own terms while not making health claims, Heliosupply emphasizes education and responsible consumption, striving to help consumers escape the stigma associated with plant-based concentrates and extracts. Jared is the owner of that company. I met him recently here at the Grow Up Conference.

5:11BubblemanAnd he said, what can I do to be a part of this? He's good friends with Logan, our good friend, Wolverine Dabs down in Wenatchee, and really just an awesome guy. So let's, without further ado, start letting in the panel. Looks like we got three folks waiting. So apologies for that. I got everything recording. I'm live on YouTube. I think we are golden. So there we go.

5:35BubblemanA, B, C, D. Look at that. If I was an A, Budularo would be the B, and Caleb would be the C, and Dom would be the D. We got an alphabetical thing going on here today. So, yes. Good to see you guys. Welcome.

5:54SpeakerYo, Marcus.

5:55BubblemanHey.

5:56SpeakerHey, guys. Good to see you, Dom. Hey, man.

6:00BubblemanSo you're in the facility and are you in Amsterdam or just outside of Amsterdam?

6:04SpeakerI'm outside of Amsterdam. So I'm in the south of the Netherlands. Okay. So checking up on the trials on a Sunday evening.

6:13BubblemanIt's Carmelo's down there, doesn't he?

6:16SpeakerYeah, exactly. He does.

6:20BubblemanI didn't end up getting him a link, but if you have a way to send him a link, that would be great to invite him on to the show.

6:27SpeakerI can text him.

6:28BubblemanYeah, text him. Karma, man. Karma's such a good dude. You know, all these... Hold on. I remember not seeing him for a long time and him having, like, crazy health problems or something. I can't remember what that was about, but I have a vague...

6:42SpeakerI almost had that at some point.

6:43BubblemanWell, it's called getting old.

6:47BubblemanI was waiting for Pugilero to look up and give us a smile while he was eating his breakfast.

6:52SpeakerLet me see.

6:56BubblemanHow you doing, Caleb?

6:58SpeakerI am doing well. I ran into Dave from Motilaro yesterday. He gave me some haze and some pearls hash to smoke during this episode.

7:08BubblemanOh my God. He told me that, dude. That is so awesome. I got this, I guess this Tom Hill haze from a guy here in Canada who preferred not to be shouted out, but he sent me a little clone and then he sent me some flower as well. And I just, you know, like, dude, I am just... I don't even know how to explain it, but I guess I'm like, I've always been a huge Haze fan, but when I cut Herb out and when I stopped smoking Herb, Haze disappeared.

7:38BubblemanI mean, aside from hitting the odd dab of Jack or something, you know, Congo-esque or something, there was no real... And then people even say that, you know, I love hitting haze concentrates because he sent me some of that as well. The gentleman who sent me the clone as well as the flower. This is like a rocket ship to the moon. Oh, we got you. You guys are unmuted.

8:01BubblemanI can hear you, Bud Gilero. Dave, how you doing, buddy?

8:04SpeakerGood, how are you?

8:05BubblemanVery good. Very good. I'm probably going to roll up one of these hazers.

8:08SpeakerWhy are we hearing three voices?

8:10BubblemanOh, because you don't have your headphones on. So you're doing your speakers are picking up the voices that are coming like your microphones picking up your speakers. So when you don't talk, it's best to just mic your mute your mic. And then when you do talk, we'll all mute our mics, except Dr. Mark, he'll come in and he won't mute his mic. But hey, what are you going to do?

8:33BubblemanYou can't you can't tell these PhDs anything.

8:39SpeakerFYI, Marcus, I just texted Karma, so he might be on or he might not.

8:44BubblemanYeah, well, that would be great. I know that it would be good to catch up to him. And he's always I mean, my goodness, that cross he did with the amnesia haze, the where is my bike? There's a real story. I don't know if too many of you guys know the story behind Where Is My Bike? But apparently he had given it to a friend of his.

9:01BubblemanAnd if he comes in, he'll be able to clarify. But I guess his friend lost his bike. And so it turned into that they named the cultivar Where Is My Bike? Which was pretty funny. It was stepped up by skunk man, Sam. And I can't, I'd have to ask Soma what they were smoking the day that Sam went over to Soma's and lost his van. He of course thought it was stolen.

9:23BubblemanHe left Soma's so stoned, he thought it was stolen. And he reported it stolen and got the insurance. And I think it was months later, he was at Soma's again. And he walked, he went down a different street to leave and he saw his van there with like, The Full Boot, like 500 tickets on the front of it. So this is a pretty epic story of smoking and forgetting where something is.

9:47BubblemanThat's on another level. Oh, God bless Sam. We miss you, buddy. We miss you. He's never far. No. Shout out to Sam. I've got his little jar of ashes here and I'll just put them probably on my little Put them on my little haze clone that I got here.

10:13SpeakerI might just be smoking some tonight because we already planted this ashes with one of the haze plants, you know? Right.

10:21BubblemanSo you have all sorts of haze plants in this facility, correct, Dom?

10:26SpeakerYeah, we have a few, the ones that Ryan gave me.

10:31BubblemanWhy don't you give a small introduction as to who you are, what Innexo is, and then get into what Ryan gave you.

10:40SpeakerAll right, so I come from humble beginnings. So as a home grower, I was fascinated by, you know, different types of plants. I grew my first Landrace variety, which was a Colombian variety that I got from backseat from the coffee shop. So I used to go to the coffee shop, ask for like the cheapest import brick variety that they have, and I would sift out the seeds and grow them.

11:11SpeakerSo that's like almost 20 years ago. I've been around, you know, starting as a home grower, making my way over to the cannabis social clubs in Belgium, then spent at least six years in biotech pharma. And then I, in 2021, I co-founded and started Enexo. And we are a Basically a testing station for all things cannabis cultivation related. So what we have here in Europe and predominantly like in the Netherlands and in Belgium where I live, we have testing stations for every major crop, strawberries, orchids, tomatoes, cucumbers.

12:01SpeakerWe're licensed producers, or in this case, just growers can come together, share knowledge, do trials, you know, improve on their practices. And so what I thought was like, OK, what if we could do this for cannabis? Because cannabis, there is so much yet to be discovered and. yeah so we established in exo in the netherlands got a license to perform r d and we've been doing cool stuff ever since so going on five years now and so we for us it's important to create value to this industry by providing rigorous data sets doing

12:45SpeakerTrials, you know, but also in terms of preservation, I was collecting seeds, you know, from the first moment I started doing anything with cannabis cultivation. And so I always had this interest in collecting seeds and, and, you know, preserving them for when they would fit a purpose. So we do our best to preserve whatever old genetics there still are. So we create a living library of different types of land-raised varieties, as you call them, like the narrow-leaved truck varieties.

13:24SpeakerEverything from Malawi, Indian, Thai, South America, Honduras. We have a bunch of those here. And one of the things that we are trying to do within EXO is Figuring out how we can bring those long flowering varieties back into commercial circulation, right? So all the licensed producers are focusing on what has the highest THC or whichever variety finishes the fastest. But we believe that there is still a lot of the medicinal properties of cannabis aren't reaching the patients.

14:07SpeakerBecause a huge chunk of the gene pool is being forgotten or left out deliberately because it's hard to produce or cost more money to produce. So we are working on some new ways, some novel ways with technology that's available right now to find cultivation systems in which it is economically viable for licensed producers to start Differentiating themselves from the masses and start producing these long flowering varieties in a way they basically should be produced.

14:47BubblemanIt's kind of the how much can we get and how fast can we get it mentality that really... It's why I have such an incredible appreciation for the people that choose to... What's the right terminology? That choose to... Caretake for these genetics that choose, you know, the 20 week flower over the six to seven, you know, that, and, and it's, you know, there's, it's always a pull.

15:18BubblemanYou always see, and not all of them. I doubt Budularo was on this page, but I always see a lot of the haze guys constantly like, oh, I'm trying to get it down to nine weeks. And I'll always be like, why?

15:29SpeakerDon't do that. Like here, for example, we, yeah. No, it's not the same. Exactly the same. So here you see the original mother plants from the hazes that Ryan donated.

15:46BubblemanSo tell us a little bit about those hazes.

15:50SpeakerI think that's a great story for Ryan to tell.

15:54BubblemanOkay, well, he's running a little bit late. We can get him in to tell these stories. But these seeds came from skunk men. Oh, look at that. Jeez. Speak of the devil.

16:03SpeakerHis ears must be burning. There we go. So, Ryan, if you're there, please tell the story about how the hazes ended up at my place. First, how they ended up in your hands, and then...

16:19BubblemanYeah, he's just joining for whatever reason. It's taking him a while. Oh, no, there he is. So welcome, Ryan. We were just touring Dom's garden at Inexo and he got up to the seeds that you gave him. And I was like, you should tell us a little bit about those seeds. And he said, well, it would be better if Ryan told that story. Yeah. And then there you were to tell the story.

16:39BubblemanSo he's he's got the seat. He's got the hazers. Ryan, these are our plans, buddy.

16:46Ryan Dank AfLooking great, man, as always. Dom is a really good grower and their facility is very cool. I was lucky to go down there while I was over in Amsterdam. And I know David would be incredibly proud of what you're doing there. And so I took a few of the hay that he had given me from my own little collection at Hoarder Farm and brought them down. To kind of represent Sam at the facility where you're doing all that great work.

17:17Ryan Dank AfSo, yeah. As you know, David's whole life was about cannabis research. And you operate under the same type of license that he, I think, was maybe the first cannabis grower. Yeah, he was the first. So, yeah, he'd be thrilled to see what you're doing, brother. I know he'd be checking in with you every day or every week. Coming down to this.

17:42SpeakerI don't know if you can see this. So this room is actually the room where we normally do like the seat fingerprinting and the seat phenotyping. But because of a shortage in space, we had to temporarily move our mother plants there. But because we are working with seats in this room normally, we dubbed this room CD Future, with a D standing for David. Not for Dom. He's the one that started it all, basically.

18:12BubblemanAmen to that. Well, here's something you don't see every day. Bubble Man smoking a joint.

18:21Collin PalmerWell, we've been seeing it more often, bro. You know, I like it. I might have to join you. I got I got some haze over here rolled up. Well, I actually had some young bucks.

18:32BubblemanPrivate message me and tell me how to properly light a joint. So that was nice.

18:36Collin PalmerOh shit. Okay. Always something to learn, man.

18:41BubblemanHey, I've learned it every day here, man. Shout out to the brother who sent this haze to me, by the way. Unbelievable. So lovely. I believe it was a 15 weeker.

18:57BubblemanQuite lovely. In fact, today, if anyone wants to share pictures, please let me know because I think a big part of this show will be, you know, kind of sharing the photos and the bud structures and whatnot. Here's a couple that I took of the plant that I'm puffing on right now.

19:18SpeakerOh, that's beautiful, man.

19:19Ryan Dank AfIt fits the phenotype. It's a little compressed.

19:22BubblemanIt looks right, right?

19:23Ryan Dank AfYeah.

19:25BubblemanDude, who would think that bud like this, imagine seeing bud like this so long ago where you were just like thought you were going to get a big fat bud, but you got this little tiny kind of waspy. And then for me, it's just, I don't, I'm not impressed with the big PGR'd out nuggets that just look completely nothing like this. I just have a real appreciation for this.

19:49Ryan Dank AfWell, if you saw that in the day, you'd be, you know, and you were in the know, you'd know what it was. Right. Especially taking a maturity like that. I mean, that's pretty resonant.

20:00BubblemanYeah. He said he took it to 16 weeks and it actually, I asked you guys over at the Budularo group there, if you've ever seen this, but he said at 16 weeks, it kind of like energy wise, like just dropped off a little. He said he was taking it at 14 to 15, 14 and 15 weeks were almost identical. So I think he actually took this one at 14, but I don't have a clear, Oh, what do you got there, Don?

20:23SpeakerYeah, this, so this is the, from, from the haze that Ryan gave me. So this was 165 days constantly on 1212. Hell yeah.

20:36Ryan Dank AfDom, you have to flex your, your grams per square watt on that.

20:41SpeakerAh, dude, you have to smell this, man. It's, it's smell-o-vision, man. I'm waiting for that, you know? But, ah, it's, it's been in the, in the jars now for, uh,

20:54SpeakerWe, three months, I believe, but wow. And it's still curing, so keep it in the freezer, right? And it's still curing. So I have some cool pictures for later on on that particular haze. So I'm going to show them to you later on. But yeah, as Ryan says, grams per watt, it was, you know, that was crazy. What was the grams per watt? Well, so when we calculate yield, basically, we take into account the time it takes and the amount of cycles you can do.

21:33SpeakerSo in terms of grams per square meter per year, that's how we calculate the yield. You get with the hazes that we did. And so it's the ones that Ryan gave me was about four kilograms. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

22:21SpeakerSo what we did, we, after extensive testing, of course, that we knew that this was possible, we switched off the top lights and just installed four levels of inter canopy light. And that meant, and we can come back to the pictures later, that meant that basically half of the plant was illuminated from the side and there was a big chunk of the plant that you know didn't get any light above like 50 micromoles just from the ambient uh light in the in the greenhouse and what we saw is that those like main flowers those flowers on the top they developed you know as they would normally with lights on them Because the middle part of the plant was getting so much light intensity that it shot all that energy up.

23:25SpeakerSo that's how we came to be, you know, 200 watts on a square meter with a yield of around four kilograms. And that is dry, dry finished flower. So no trimming whatsoever.

23:43BubblemanYou're testing everything over there too, right? You're not just like, oh, we put these lights on and we noticed a difference. Everything is like data driven.

23:51SpeakerYou're a data driven company.

23:53BubblemanYeah.

23:53SpeakerYeah. Yeah. That's it. That's it.

23:55BubblemanYou should kind of expand on that because I think a lot of people could hear you and be like, oh yeah, I do that too.

24:00SpeakerIt's like, hmm, do you? For example, to really test this, how we came about such a test took us a few years. So we first did a large inter canopy trial with Fluence that was sponsoring that trial that we did for them. And what we noticed is that if you redistribute your light a little bit differently, you kind of homogenize the canopy. So In that trial, we took around 30% of the intensity of the top light, dimmed down that top light and put that light intensity inside the canopy through under canopy lighting.

24:47SpeakerAnd so we saw those results, no increase in yield or secondary metabolites, but better microclimates, you know, and overall higher quality grade. So then we started experimenting with what, you know, how does the plant react if you give 50% from the top and 50% inside the canopy? And so those trials yielded incredible results because we saved about 35% electricity and we got 15% more yield on average, you know, depending on the variety a little bit.

25:20SpeakerSo then I went to step it up a notch and then I did like normal varieties without any top light at all. And then I did the land races, so the longer flowering ones like the 16-week Honduras variety or 14-week Laos, 14-week Malawi, you know. And then when Ryan came to visit, he was like, okay, I got these hasties that I would like to donate. I was like, okay, here we go.

25:49SpeakerHere we go. So we're going to go see the real longer flowering ones. But we had all that previous data. already from the different trials so i kind of knew how this could go but still those plants you know they they surprised me um and we got great deals off of those so with it with the hazes i got like in the same window of yield that i would do with a normal commercial variety that's like seven eight weeks right so you do you do less runs but because Those haze and those narrowleaf drug cultivars, they are profusely, they go super high, super wide.

26:32SpeakerAnd if you adjust your cultivation system, there is actually no reason why on the yearly basis, those plants should yield less than modern day cultivars in terms of grams per area per time limit.

26:49Ryan Dank AfAnd you have half the labor cost in planting, right?

26:53SpeakerOh yeah, so another thing about those long flowering varieties, there's nothing to it. You just put them there. You don't fetch them or pre-fetch them. We don't do that anyways. But the plant is used to shed its leaves. So by harvest time, you'll hardly have any fan leaves left on them, which makes the post-harvest handling So, yeah, in terms of labor is just, you know, sitting there and watch it grow, basically.

27:34BubblemanSo as part of your mission to kind of bring back, I mean, obviously it's hard to convince people to grow hazers, mainly because, you know, at this point in time, to me, for the last 30 years, the people who grew haze just never gave a fuck about that. They had to remove themselves from the how much can I get and how fast can I get it mentality of prohibition, which really was a driving force.

27:57BubblemanI don't care what anyone says. Before anyone was talking about patience or any of that, they were asking, how much can I get and how fast can I get it? And I remember 35 years ago when everyone had already spent their entire crop before they even planted their seeds. Like my buddies would be like, oh, I'm going to do this and I got this and I'm doing that.

28:18BubblemanAnd I'm just like, dude, you should just grow the weed. Like try and just grow the weed. Uh, we've obviously come a long way, but obviously being able to be economically viable is, is, uh, I mean, this is kind of what today's show is about bringing together a small group of people who in their own way are not only caretaking for these plants, but they're also trying to get them Thank you for joining us.

29:13SpeakerThey're trimmed. By the time they go through the ringer of regulation, packaging will be here. Yeah, I mean, the packaging is going to get finalized this week. I can send things off to get packaged, and by the end of the month, or I get tested by the end of the month, it's going to be a reality.

29:34BubblemanYou got to think that would just sell out immediately. I mean, I know we're a smaller group, the Hayes lovers, but not that small. And then the thing about the Hayes lovers, they'll buy half of it. It's not like they'll go and buy one. They'll be like, no, no, I want as much as I can get. There's only there's only one pound.

29:54SpeakerAnd after I put in front of Snoop Dogg's face next week, there might not be any left. Hey, you know what?

30:02Collin PalmerOne thing I want to recognize to the audience is like what Dom has done in terms of a business decision is really unique. And I got to give you your flowers, man, because, you know, you're using technology and data to kind of inform your passion, like what you want to grow these years. Thank you so much for joining us.

30:43Collin PalmerYou know, just really understanding, you know, where you're at in terms of your actual practice, you know, and going through that is, there's some really hard decisions to make and to lean into the under canopy lighting like you are, but also recognize that, You know, up here and, you know, where the majority of, let's say, the energy is coming from, maybe not the best place to pull or allow the plant to pull from.

31:10Collin PalmerThat's, you know, I wish other operators around the world would take those types of chances and bet on themselves like that, because that's... Thank you so much for being here.

31:42Collin PalmerYou know, most people just don't think like that, man.

31:43Ryan Dank AfIf I can say too, I mean, no, the cannabis industry has really persisted on bullshit marketing for years. Yeah. Because a lot of these companies that are servicing the cannabis industry, they can't, they're not, they can't touch the plant. Right. And so Dom's business model gives, or an excellent business model gives them the ability to do the research that they need to make the claims that they do about their products.

32:07Ryan Dank AfSo it really is like this crucial service to the industry as a CRO where independent growers can do the testing with the real science backup of the Dutch commercial industry. Not only the cannabis industry and the lab support, but like Holland is a really incredible country in terms of plants. People don't realize that It's the second largest exporter by value of all agricultural products on the planet, right?

32:39Ryan Dank AfSo for this tiny little nation, like way north, they do such incredible growing, mostly in greenhouses, but because it's such a challenging environment, they've developed all this technology to support the plant growth industry or horticulture industry. And Dom's able to tap into that in a way that no other, even Canada, we don't tap into that kind of research. He took me to this research campus. When I was there, he took me to this research campus to see the Holland has centralized one laboratory for all of the campus industry.

33:15Ryan Dank AfSo they don't have this problem between inter lab variability. But anyway, this lab is on a part of a horticultural campus. And they have like this seed phenotyping technology. And we went and visited a lab that does they create We've got a lot of people in the cannabis industry that will say, oh, I've got this powdery mildew resistant variety, or I've got a variety that's resistant to botrytis.

34:03SpeakerGive me a go at it.

34:04Ryan Dank AfYeah, but there's been no challenge, right? Like to do that type of research, you have to do a biological challenge where you actually spray the plant with the pathogen in a controlled manner so that all the plants are getting dosed the same way. And from that kind of experiment, you can actually really infer True resistance, right? So when you see people, we see people on the, you know, on the forums and online all the time talking about their, their resistant varieties, they've never undergone like a challenge.

34:35Ryan Dank AfWhereas, you know, Dom is set up to do all those kinds of experiments. So it really is next level, next level R&D. Right. And the type that's just we don't see in the cannabis industry. So I was really impressed. And, you know, if you if you have product, a cannabis support industry like lighting or, you know, growing equipment or whatever, it's like Dom really provides the facility and the now that you can hire a grower to do those tests without having to build yourself a facility.

35:07Ryan Dank AfIt's a really it's a great, great thing.

35:10SpeakerI appreciate that, Ryan. I'd like to say a few more things. We exist to de-risk the cannabis industry. It is very, very good and very okay that licensed producers do their own R&D in-house, but you cannot do everything. And you have to really pick your battles if you're a licensed producer on what types of R&D you are running at your facility. And as Ryan said, if you have like a variety that is resistant to powdery mildew or you're having trouble finding new varieties like peanut hunting or whatever, like we can do all that cool stuff and we have a you know a very high risk profile but we learn how to deal with it so we basically live in a zoo so when i'm selecting for uh research varieties because not all research is the same and i don't want any weak plants i want plants that can handle the type of research that i'm doing but if i cannot stress test those plants or those cultivars Thank you.

36:22SpeakerThank you.

36:47SpeakerAnd, you know, big shout out to Tony and Dave. I mean, I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing at Bajilaro, really big fan. And it is like the progress, like build it and they will come, right? And that's, you know, sometimes that happens. And it is great that you guys, you know, getting the pearls again out there, getting those land-raised varieties known by consumers.

37:17SpeakerBecause if consumers or patients only know, let's say, 10 to 20% of what the cannabis plant is capable of, you know, they don't know everything. And they might just find out, you know, I like the pearls more than a very stony Afganica. So big props to what you guys are doing over there. And as I said before, it's also about the packaging. So it's great that you give that some thoughts.

37:51SpeakerBasically, what you guys are creating is the XO cognac of the cannabis industry. We have good, good reds. We have great tasty whites, right? But nobody is making that cognac with like such a flower in a jar, gold seal on it, properly cured, flow aid. Nobody's doing that. And that's a big up for you guys, man. I really appreciate you guys doing the work. I appreciate it.

38:19SpeakerI mean, I owe it all to him. You know, like I'm an idea guy. The first time I saw him, first time I met him and smoked with him, I knew I wanted to. For me, the only way I was going to do it was do a light depth because I was big on light depth at that point. But, you know, he's really opened me up to the other side of the plant spectrum.

38:39SpeakerThank you so much for having me.

38:57SpeakerAll right, this is what I like now. And I'm in the California market. So as a super small everything, if we try to put out gelato or Skittles or permanent marker or any of this other stuff, we would fail miserably. So it wasn't even an option to try and compete. It was like, okay, well, Here's here's an idea that not a lot of other people are doing.

39:19SpeakerAnd if we can do it in a few right ways, we might have a chance. And it was like, there's two things here. I like to smoke this. He likes to smoke this. But if we're going to approach it from a business like you are, we're looking at it at a separate angle. Thankfully, both of those two things jive up. And that's what it's always been for me is like I was a big proponent of sour diesel when I was younger because I smoked a lot of it and I grew a lot of it.

39:43SpeakerAnd now I don't smoke as much of it. I smoke the pearls and other stuff. And so I'm a big proponent of that. But, you know, I think it just... It was a clear path. It was a clear lane that was wide open. It was very interesting also because I've learned a tremendous amount after 25 years of growing. I've learned a tremendous amount. So, yeah, it's just I'm just glad that he was here to pass it and I was open enough to receive it.

40:11Ryan Dank AfWell, you know, you're fighting in a crowded lane rather than creating your own lane. Right. Right. Yeah. And you're providing something different to the industry. So it's a real win. I love what you guys are doing.

40:23SpeakerAnd it's kind of a scary thing, but I think we all know that lane needs to be driven in. And however winding it may be, I feel like every week we have something that happens, whether small or medium, That it's stacking and it's stacking at a rate that we can handle. You know, I used to work for a big company in Washington that did a million dollars a month in grams.

40:51SpeakerSo I got to see how a large company thinks and operates and what happens when you get too big too fast.

40:57Etienne FontanRight. Thank you.

40:58SpeakerTony is a even keel, not a like a big, you know, kind of guy. And so I was able to, like, realize we can only go so fast, we can only do so much, but it's going at a rate and we can build it at our own speed. And that's, I think, a huge blessing. To be able to be the ones that determine what gear it's in, how it gets shifted, when, where, and all that stuff that a lot of big companies don't have the ability to do.

41:24SpeakerSo they just chase. And I've never been a chaser. You know, I've always just done my own thing and put the blinders on. Like I did what I did because I liked it, not because I thought people were going to buy it or think it was cool. You know, like I wanted to dye my hair green when I was in high school because I thought it was cool, not because I thought the girls were going to like me.

41:45BubblemanThere might have been that one girl.

41:48SpeakerYeah.

41:50BubblemanI will say that it's also the only lane where the top is down, so it should be driven, that lane.

41:56SpeakerYeah. But, you know, with cannabis, it's more like, it's like fashion, you know? Certain stuff gets hype, and then there's a period where it's not. So, for example, in the 90s, purple weed was all the craze here. Coming 2000s, So, purple, you couldn't give it away for free, right? Now, if it's not purple, it's not stalling in Cali, you know? So, and exactly what you said, these lanes, they are meant to be driven in.

42:30SpeakerAnd the only thing that you're gonna see is how many cars are in that lane in a certain amount of time. So. Yeah, and you know, there's a huge, a huge amount of interest from the consumer Instagram is representative, at least in California, Instagram is representative of the black market, in my opinion, and not necessarily the legal market. Because when I do demos in stores, I meet people that don't really know a lot about herb, and they don't know the difference between gelato and Skittles.

43:03SpeakerBut if they believe you, they'll buy what you tell them to buy. And because the only option is... And has been X, Y, and Z, which are all the same. That's what they keep buying. But when I get a chance to get in front of these people, I get the impression that they're curious and that they want to learn. They want to know and that they're open.

43:24SpeakerAnd when it's authentic, people try it. You know, lo and behold, you tell the truth and you just be you, you know, like, I don't know.

43:34Collin PalmerAnd people want to know what they're putting in their body. I think that's been my experience as well. When you get down and actually speak to people that are just way outside of our culture and have their own lives and their own cultures that they want cannabis to be part of. They just want to know that it's coming from a place that when they ingest this, much like food, You know, it's a it's if they know they have they have some sort of understanding of process.

44:07Collin PalmerAnd I think that's where you and your team kind of kind of shine super bright in that realm. You know, I do think there's a collective consciousness and in terms of the shift of what people are looking for. So I think you're right on with that.

44:23SpeakerIt's also about like the funny thing is at my place, They cannot taste the cannabis, of course, right? But they can see the plants growing. And so if I get guys from the US to my facility, I'll always have some, you know, weird looking long flowering variety somewhere. But like when I had our version of the pearls, which came from my AK-47 background, mutated AK-47, people were looking at this like, is this cannabis?

44:58SpeakerBut they see how beautiful the structure of those flowers is. And so they immediately get a new appreciation for what cannabis can be. And then they are wondering, hey, what would that feel like? Would that effect be different? Would it taste be different? Is the smokability different? And that's a big part of it, having people experiencing what cannabis can be like.

45:28Collin PalmerYeah, no, you know, I think what you're highlighting is the diversity. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, a lot of people talk about, oh, we're bottlenecking. Well, it's like, well, what choices are those being made on, right? Is it because your facility is nine weeks? Or is it because you truly care about the plants and you want to grow something that is nine weeks?

45:51Collin PalmerOr are you actually interested in the 26 week varietal? What is it? You know, and I keep going back to that because it We all know the answer. It's just, are we going to admit that? And I think what you're highlighting, Dom, is something that I hope others kind of take a hold of in terms of concept, because it does allow you to grow these longer varietals and make it make sense.

46:17Collin PalmerSo it's-

46:22SpeakerFrom like from my end, you know, you really have to market these in a different way, right? It's not the it's not the typical dispensary consumer that's just going to be like, oh, I know what this is and I want to buy it. And so connecting with the people that know what it is and want to buy it is a different model than the dispensary model. And that's been my focus because I've realized there's stoners out there in California that still, you know, the stoner culture, the smoker culture, the people that were buying weed in dispensaries during the 2015 days that were stoked on diversity, stoked on quality, they never disappeared.

47:04SpeakerThey're just underserved. So now you have this faction of you work in the weed industry and you All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

47:27SpeakerYou know, the people still want it. They just don't know where to go. And I feel like with the bottlenecking, people are confused because they've kind of understood now what this bottlenecking is, at least like a certain portion of the consumers. And so now they're kind of like, well, I was misled. Now I'm confused. Where do I go? But the people that love weed are still out there.

47:52SpeakerAnd I feel like we've catered to the people that don't know what weed is because every, like I've gone to LA twice in the last year and I've had a couple of days to go to dispensaries. And in LA, they have these cool sniffer jars and you can smell what the weed smells like. And after the 10th dispensary, I can go in and know what I'm going to smell before I get there.

48:11SpeakerSo from a consumer standpoint, they've bought in 15 different strain names and it's all been the same. And they're like, okay, like, I don't want to do that again, but it's my only option. And so we're really focused on connecting with people that are passionate about the type of herb that we have, understand what it is. So I don't have to fight to market and make sales because there's people that are like all in.

48:35SpeakerHere you go right now. And then there's the people that are from A to Z. That's a lot of wasted time to focus on people that just really don't understand it. And it's a hard sell. And there's a certain portion of people out there that don't need to be told sold. They just are like, oh, wow, it's out there where and now, you know?

48:56Collin PalmerSo, yeah.

48:59SpeakerAnd it's nice to be able to do that because now we're back to connecting with each other. I'm talking with people in a direct way instead of it just being through a retail buyer, which is like a whole level of disconnect. And Although we don't get to sit on the couch like Tony talks about and have that personal interaction, I am at least getting to notify people, talk to them, interact with them.

49:24SpeakerAnd that is a basic human want to be acknowledged. And we're acknowledging these people in a direct level. And I get feedback on a direct level that is, thank you so much for caring. Thank you so much for making this happen. Because like this week, I was able to make a couple of things happen that was very difficult for my end. But the handful of people that it was directed towards were very appreciative of it.

49:50SpeakerThat makes me want to keep going. That lets them know that I'm going to keep going for them. And we build on that. And people are just like, wow. Thank you for watching.

50:16SpeakerWe've got to be genuine and not be so big that you can't do those things. And that's, I built this whole thing in terms of the size of the greenhouse, the ability for me and my brother-in-law to be able to do everything is a huge advantage because It takes us days to trim pounds as opposed to one day. And the visual quality on that is representative of a homegrown product.

50:46SpeakerAnd I had to show them, hey, look, this is how you've done it on the trim scenes. This is the only way we're going to do it. And he is an excellent trimmer in high demand. But when I kind of was like, this is the level where it needs to be at, it clicked. And he was like, wow. This is a level above. And guess what? People appreciate that because the people that want hazes and this special weed don't care about the price.

51:11SpeakerThey love it. They appreciate these things.

51:13BubblemanYep. Yep. Well, it's unique, right? It's something that you just can't acquire otherwise. And I think, you know, part of the thing that makes people confused about true haze is that Most people just call it sativa. And what most people call sativa is a hybrid. It's not like a pure haze or a equatorial land race, whatever you want to call it, whatever the proper terminology is. It's just like a diluted watered down version, always towards the how much can I get and how fast can I get it sort of thing.

51:48BubblemanDirection. So, you know, when you find something that's truly special like that, you have to be appreciative of someone who's willing to actually grow it so you can trim it and cure it and all of these things so that you can just go there and buy it.

52:04SpeakerAnd it's great too like we have some retail partners that take the chance on us you know like we just dropped something last week and it's more expensive than everyone else than everything else we have on the menu but these retailers now are willing to take the chance because they understand some of them understand what it is and that's great because now the the consumers can can get that chance and it's funny because we're about to pull some stuff off the menu that's a year and a half old and I still have people messaging me Thank you for watching.

52:52SpeakerWhat, you know, who knows what, what are we like, what are we talking about here? Let's compare, like, let's have an honest conversation. Like what people say it is, is going to change over time, you know, and it's changing for me over time also. Yep. Hey guys. Um, we, we have another Belgian guy here. His name is Sammy. Hi, everybody. I hope you can hear me. Hey, you made it in, Sammy.

53:20SpeakerYeah, yeah, yeah, Marcus. So I'm not so technical, but I made it in. So, dude, hi, everyone.

53:26BubblemanBeautiful. Well, welcome to you and Mojave as well, who also popped in right around the time that you popped in as well. A couple of narrow leaf drug cultivar growers right there.

53:36SpeakerYeah, Sammy is actually one of the best I've known. So I had the extreme pleasure of having him over at our last Acceleration Day in October. It was very exciting, man. So thanks for having me, really, all of you. Welcome.

53:58BubblemanYeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, Sammy. Obviously, you're fond of the haze.

54:03SpeakerYeah, I'm fond of the haze, but so I have to refer to it. I grow haze hybrids, so I don't do like the full ones from Sam or David. But I was lucky to met a few people in the early 90s that kept some of the clone homies from Neville. You know, and so we tried to preserve these special heirlooms because they stood out, you know what I mean?

54:25SpeakerSo from whenever I smoked the first A5 joint, so it's NL5 cross to Haze A from now, I was a lover, enchanted, let's say. And so that was in 1993. And so then I got better acquainted with these people in the south of Holland. They were based in the south of Holland. Me too, by the way. And so it's a beautiful story, okay? And so we try to preserve Neville's legacy, let's say, but also David's legacy in a certain form, you know?

54:53SpeakerAnd these plants are really special because it brings, to me at least, you know, in a hybrid form, these two, like, you know, varieties, like, say, the more broadleaf dorm, the Afghanis being NL5, or Hush Plant or G13 and interbreeding them with Hays A and C. Well, so it was a really unique expression that was derived from these crosses. And so, of course, we love the Hays, which means these are clones that will take 14 to 15 weeks to flower.

55:26SpeakerYou know, you can maybe in the best kind of way grow up to 16 and maybe even more. It depends also on how you cultivate them, et cetera, et cetera. But usually I let them go 100 days flower. And just like Dom said, we hardly veg them, you know, from a clone. We kind of veg them for maybe 10 days. Then I talk to them and I switch to flower and then they start growing.

55:47SpeakerSo the first four. To six, seven weeks, it's just all vegetable growth. And then, of course, from week three, four, the flowers start emerging. And then you have these monsters plant that, you know, so it's not for the average cultivator, so to speak, you know, and that's why it's always a niche market. But the product speaks for itself. And after all these years, they're still, you know, being embraced by what I call the Hayes crew here in Holland.

56:14SpeakerAnd so it stretches far even to coffee shops. And so they all appreciate my kind of work and I'm thankful that I can do it, you know. And so I keep the fire burning as long as I can. Simple. Beautiful, man. We had somebody in the chat saying, no one grows Band-Aid haze better than Sammy. Thank you, man. That was also, that's all. Isn't that karma? By you guys in America that sent it to me.

56:38SpeakerKarma was involved in the production of, you know, like the form of the Band-Aid haze, which is the Cuban black crossed to A5, crossed to Miracle Thai, quote unquote, but nobody actually knows if it's truly a Thai. Let's call it Miracle. And so that male A5 Miracle, It was really astounding because it produced the Band-Aidase number seven. And if you know how to grow it, it blows your mind.

57:00SpeakerSo she can stand next to the old clones. And so I grew a lot of... And so from my experience, it's hard to find that hybrid that, you know, can stand next to these certain varieties. Of course, it's all selection and phenotype, typical expression that you're searching for. But so that's why we envy you guys in America and Canada, because you can do large seed

57:26SpeakerThank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

57:55SpeakerThank you very much.

58:20SpeakerSounds beautiful.

58:21BubblemanCan you tell us a little bit more about those sort of parent stocks, hazes that you were talking about in regards to preserving Neville and David's work?

58:29SpeakerSo Neville, as you know, he's got five plants out of David's old seeds, being original haze, and he did most of his work.

58:43SpeakerAnd so these then tend to produce cultivars as C5 Haze, A5 Haze, Neville's Haze also because it's the A5 crossed to the Haze male C again. And then you get the Haze expressions within these lines that Neville actually preserved or selected. From, and then passed five of his best expressions to these Southern Dutch people that embraced it. And they were also like, so they dialed this, these plants in.

59:12SpeakerSo they were able to achieve a cultivation methodology that was really high standing. And, you know, so you could grow this plant to full potential. And so because when you don't grow it and cultivate it right, it tends to produce hay, as we say, you know what I mean? And so it's mainly hay A and hay C. He also had a bee female that absolutely blow their minds.

59:37SpeakerBut after six months of flowering, it still didn't nant. And so it wasn't really the most practical plant to work with. That's why it also hasn't gotten preserved, you know what I mean? And for Haze A male, the same thing. Before Neville realized how beautiful I think it was, you know, like the hybrid that came from it, something happened with Haze A and it unfortunately died early in its early stages.

1:00:00SpeakerSo he then dialed in the best kind of expressions of Haze A, which to him was Northern Light 5 Haze A and a certain phenotypical expression we call the number two. Was then used to create his crown of creation, let's say, Neville's Haze, which is on this specific NL5 Haze A crossed to the full Haze C male. And so it's still around. So it's really great, okay, that Neville's legacy also is embraced, and not only Neville, let's say, David and Neville together, because I considered these two as the main people that were in.

1:00:34SpeakerI think David really brought it to Holland, you know, like, He realized what it was, Neville then obtained it and he commercialized it by being hybridizing it and spreading it around so more people could dial into haze and haze varieties but hybridized so it's like the first step up to full hazes and I got to know a lot of people that are working full blood hazes and so they're producing great work But what they're all doing is like they're inbreeding original hays, let's face it, okay?

1:01:04SpeakerThat doesn't mean it's bad because if you have lost phenotypical expressions pollinating each other, you can keep the gene pool pretty rich and find these extraordinary plants. But having them plants that will be friendly to the cultivator and you have to like 24, to put 24, let's say more than a half year almost into this cultivation process, you want this plant to, you know, produce some nice bud.

1:01:27SpeakerOtherwise, you're wasting a half year of your life, you know what I mean? But it's a learning curve. It's a step by step. But so like Tom Hill, I think he's doing a magnificent job with like his form of bringing original haste to the market. It's really outstanding. And he's not the only one. I think, you know, there are a few not so big nameless people in this community that really, really, you know, keep it real and bring the fire, which means like the best versions, phenotypical expressions in David and the, you know, whoever were the Hayes brothers, let's say, these guys formed the cradle, right?

1:02:02SpeakerAnd so from what I hear, it's mainly Colombian down across to probably some Mexican maybe related to it, and then Southeast Indian, either Thai or Laos or whatever comes from there, but so far. And so integrating all these sativics in America and California back in Santa Cruz was really something that I didn't think that these people were actually aware of what they actually were creating and so it took time to really you know like flow to people and well they can smoke it because what they did is bring the best equatorial land races together and you know creates a hybrid from that you know and that's what we call original haze and then you know it later spread to Holland Because Holland was the only country in the world back then that was friendly to us cannabis, you know.

1:02:49SpeakerAnd you can do some things here. That was also brought David to Holland. Neville came to Holland for other reasons, but he picked up on it. And being you all, you are English natives, so, you know, the US and Australia, I take people that, you know, came from abroad to Holland, which is a small country. We're able to connect on deeper levels because, you know, we have this English connotation.

1:03:15SpeakerSo you have English as your native tongue and Dutch people don't. And so there was a difference in, you know, this international figure stepping in because they did things that blew the Dutch people's head off, to be honest. And so we can only thank them because this work is still like Dom does. He got the seats straight from David by, I think, one of you guys here.

1:03:37SpeakerSorry if I get it. I think it was another person. Ryan, yes, sorry. And so it's really important that we now have the ability also in Holland in its first steps, experimental as of yet, to embrace this variety and put it where it belongs, because So in Holland, sometimes callus strains that go nine weeks, they rain here as a top price because it's the hype, right? It's simmering down.

1:04:04SpeakerWhile people that are producing haze, they do 16 weeks and they get the half of the price what's rated for these callus strains here in Holland. It's the world upside down in a way. And so in the middle of time, when this market matures, you know, Then I think the hazes will be better. And it's not about the money, but so when you can achieve, it's like a form of art, right?

1:04:26SpeakerAnd so, or, you know, like brewing wine, for instance, or, you know, you have cheap wines, consumer wines, and then you have the really fine wines. you know that have a different quality appreciation it also takes longer you have to bottle it away you know and so patience comes with quality in this kind of sense you know and i think that's a lot of so that's missing in a lot of the cannabis industry or communities mind that the best also for commercial cultivars you know they're usually chopped early simple because a nine weeker you can let maybe go to nine or ten But so the homogenousness and the industry and the investors, well, they want quick return on their investment.

1:05:06SpeakerAnd so they all choose or have chosen mostly to have the easy varieties going that will have a quick reward. And now it's time, I think, to differentiate these two markets and also appreciate them for what they are. And so better quality can also be achieved because when you have to work illegally, like I did many years, so you have to hide it, you know, like the police can come, they take it away, pest can, you know, crawl into your clouds and over time, it's a hassle to preserve them and maintain, you know.

1:05:36SpeakerAnd so we've been doing it now for 40 years and these plants are still around. And so I'm also very thankful because it's not just by me. I have a collective here in the south that also embraces Haze for what it is. And it's by these people, all of them, And they don't ask us for spotlight. They only care for this, getting high. That's what it's all about.

1:05:57SpeakerAnd that's what it's all about, man.

1:05:59BubblemanDude, God bless you, Sammy. I loved everything you said. And I felt like it was beautiful because right as you really got into the Hayes brothers and Santa Cruz, Rob popped into the room. And I was like, well, Rob, Rob was there. He must have some words on this. Welcome, Rob. How are you doing, buddy? I'm good. How are you? You look like you're in a jungle or something.

1:06:21BubblemanI kind of am. Yeah. Okay. You like outside on a deck or something? It's nighttime. Yeah. One o'clock in the morning. Oh my God. Well, thanks for coming in and spending time with us, Rob. It's the haze episode. We're talking about the narrow leaf drug cultivars and Sammy just gave a nice little breakdown on sort of, uh, you know, how, how it came to be from his perspective.

1:06:42BubblemanYou must, uh, you must have a perspective on that.

1:06:47RobWell, yeah. Um, I knew the Hayes from Santa Cruz, of course, and I'd come across Hayes a year or so before I met David, but that would have been, I met David in 77. So yeah, I knew it from 75, I'd say.

1:07:05BubblemanThat's early. That's early. I think I met the Hayes in 57. Oh, gosh, it must have been the early 90s for me. Same as Sammy, probably around 90s.

1:07:19SpeakerYeah, we have the same age, man. We're from 73.

1:07:23BubblemanYeah, we are. 73. That's right, Sammy. That's awesome. That's awesome. You knew the Hayes brothers as well then, Rob? I met Bob.

1:07:35RobYou met Bob? Yeah, I never met Jerry. But and of course, they didn't call themselves the Hayes brothers. That's they were just a couple of bros. But a couple of bros bring it brought together. I first knew it not from in Santa Cruz, really, but up on Skyline, Skyline Ridge in a place called Pacific High. And that's where the The very first haze crop that I knew was growing in an old geodesic kind of broken down old geodesic dome.

1:08:12RobPacific High was an alternative school. And I had a friend who, alternative high school, I had a friend who went to school there. If you could call it school, it was more of an experience, I think, than a school.

1:08:23BubblemanThat's what school should be. It was good. That's what school should be. So, but it's, it kind of seems like the haze is similar to the Mullumbimby madness for the story of, you know, Mullumbimby, these guys were bringing in weed and they bring in weed and they get some seeds and then they cross that into it. And then they bring more weed in and get more seeds.

1:08:43BubblemanAnd then they cross that. Is that sort of what was going on with the haze?

1:08:47RobWell, yeah, it started as a Colombian and Mexican as far as you know, and That's what everybody was smoking. I mean, first Mexican was around and then Colombian not long after that. And then more Mexicans and more Colombians, but, and Ty got crossed in at the beginning too. Those were the three main things.

1:09:08BubblemanAnd would that have been Oaxacan, the Mexican, or would it have been somewhere else originally until, like, I wonder the popularity of the regions and who, because I don't know, I went later, years later, I went to Oaxaca in the 90s as well. And it seemed like it was like they had acquired this sort of like, we grow the best weed in Mexico vibe.

1:09:31RobWell, there was Oaxaca and Michoacan. Those are the two places that the big name is back in the day. Jalisco a bit, but yeah. Acapulco, of course, is right there too. It's just on the coast. It has the name, not really where the weed was grown, I don't think, but grown in the mountains of the same region.

1:09:51BubblemanYeah.

1:09:52RobYeah.

1:09:53BubblemanBeautiful. Well, I...

1:09:55SpeakerCan I just add real quick, Marcus, that what Rob said is important because a lot of people might miss that, that every year those crosses were being made from a population of seeds, not from a clone, not a selected clone made to make seed for sale like happened in Holland. You know, so through that whole arc of that whole period of haze coming online in California, every year it was a whole population of seeds.

1:10:26SpeakerAnd then next year it was a whole new one. And next year it was a whole new one. So like the continuity of haze after Amsterdam, Turned into selecting parent plants like Sammy was talking about. And that that was where, you know, whether it's bottlenecking, but the diversity of what Hayes was in the state of California or in Santa Cruz or something in those first five years versus what Hayes was after.

1:10:56RobSo it's all about what I mean, it's it's. Yeah, the whole lineage. Every year there was another male, and that became half of the gene pool for the next year, the next A's year. So, I mean, Hayes is a brand. It wasn't a variety. I mean, it's not, yeah, it's definitely, as Mo says, it's not done from the same plant, the same clone year after year as a parent.

1:11:26RobIn fact, Neville didn't get seeds. Neville didn't get females. Neville got two males. That's how the male, the original Hayes line got to Neville. David gave him two males. And those males got crossed into Northern Lights and other things. And like Sammy was mentioning, the NL5, that was the golden cross that Neville made. But it was crossed in with other things too. It was a male. It pollinated everything Neville had, I would assume.

1:12:00RobI mean, he was trying to bring it into his line, but it came through the male.

1:12:07Collin PalmerSuch amazing information. And so, Rob... You know, I have a question, I guess, as the evolution of this, you know, you have a unique perspective because you've, of course, seen those males year after year be selected. Is there a vintage or a particular set of years that you're like, man, if we could just go back to these particular years or was that, did that not become a thing?

1:12:33Collin PalmerWas it just like getting better every year?

1:12:37RobUp to a point. I mean, it wasn't continually growing. I mean, To be honest, Bob and Jerry didn't grow, continue growing haze either. Once they met David and got skunk number one, that became their commercial weed. They stopped growing haze too. That 76, the bicentennial year was the year of the poster, right? So if you want to read, that was probably the really the culmination of haze.

1:13:06RobAnd it, yeah, that haze is a bag seed. I mean, it was not intentionally made seed. Those are accidents. Some of the pollen that was intentionally brought in to make seeds for the next year also made a few, very few seeds that were in people's bags. But yeah, it's not like breeding today. It's not, uh,

1:13:27Collin PalmerRight.

1:13:27RobYeah. Today, whatever you want to call it. Yeah.

1:13:32SpeakerI have a question for you, Rob. Sorry if I'm interrupting. But so Rob, you told me like, so Sam, or David gifted Neville, two haze males, right? But so Neville also had a haze bee. It was a female. All right. And he only grown at once because it was unpractical for him, you know. And so the males were more practical to breed, like you say, on the top variety mother plants that he could obtain, such as the Nordelite 5, G13, Hush Plant Haze, right?

1:14:01SpeakerBut so from my story, and I could be discorrect or incorrect, So Neville did get seeds from David. That's his story, at least, and sprouted them. And from there came five plants, A, B, C, D, E, F, no, D, E, five plants, right? And three of them were outstanding, being Haze A, C, and this female. But because of the intricality of the female, he didn't want to, and he didn't have males, Neville.

1:14:27SpeakerHe had, you know, like great females. So that's why he used the males to produce his famous NL5 hazes, right? But so, So David, and I know David and Neville weren't also agreeing on this story, right? And so to this day, we actually do not know if Neville really got seeds from David or it was clones. And so I ask you now, which was it?

1:14:49RobAs far as I know, David never gave him seeds. He could have later on. I drove to see Neville at what became Cannabis Castle later on, same house, and took him two mails grown from seeds that David brought from Santa Cruz. But David didn't give him a seed mail. And if he didn't have seeds, then there's a gap in the story somehow. I mean, what you say about NL5.

1:15:16SpeakerA lot of speculation in this.

1:15:18RobThey were clones. They were the first, some of the first cuttings I ever saw that made it across the Atlantic. And it had to be a male, of course, to start these lines. But Northern Lights, of course, was cuttings. And yeah, several other things. Big Bud was a cutting. And yeah. So the male, by default, ended up being Because there was haze as a male, it got crossed in with a number of clone-only females, as we'd call them these days.

1:15:49SpeakerWhat we also received from the Southern Haze Collective, let's say, they were all females.

1:15:56Ryan Dank AfRob, you're breaking the internet here today with these tidbits, shattering the great haze myths, of which there's many.

1:16:04SpeakerOh, too many.

1:16:08BubblemanWell, it's definitely legendary weed, but yeah. So you brought him those two males? You drove those over to the cannabis castle? Yeah.

1:16:16SpeakerThat's awesome, dude. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So where did he come from then?

1:16:22RobThe female? I have no idea. We can't ask Neville, but I have no idea. I never saw any female that he had.

1:16:34SpeakerWell, so I got it from the boys who gifted me these clones. And so I know from experience, these people are also in their mid-70s by now. And so they wouldn't make up a story. But of course, they took it from level, right? And so there it gets a little blurry how he obtained these genetics, let's say, call it Hays. And so what is all about? I know that he and David were not on the same page regarding the story.

1:16:57SpeakerSo a lot of speculation.

1:17:01RobI would just tend to believe David's version since he's the one who brought him to Holland in the first place. And definitely the females part is 100% correct. I mean,

1:17:12SpeakerYeah, you're here right now telling us that I would tend to believe what you have to say because you were there and you brought in those two males. To me, that part of it's done.

1:17:22Ryan Dank AfWithout David, the Hayes would have gone away to history. I mean, he recognized, like you said, when the Hayes brothers, Jerry and Bob started growing the skunk for their cash crop.

1:17:31SpeakerIt's ironic that David's name is Sam the Skunk Man and not Sam the Haze Man. Well, I'll tell you, he definitely... It's ironic, right?

1:17:40BubblemanIt is ironic. It absolutely is. And it's also ironic that his cut almost made it disappear. Like giving the Haze Brothers the skunk number one and turning it into their commercial crop. But I mean... It's amazing that he recognized. I mean, look, David was always one thing we all know about David was he liked to get the most high. And so, of course, he's going to be a huge fan of the haze because that high is undeniable.

1:18:07BubblemanIt's undeniable and it's different.

1:18:09Ryan Dank AfAnd David, as you know, having smoked with David so many times. He was a, he was a madman. He just hit bowl after bowl after bowl. And the thing that he loved about the haze was that he said it would get him, he called it ceilingless, right? It would get him higher and higher with every hit. So yeah, he, without David, we wouldn't have the haze.

1:18:29SpeakerSo true. Wow. We got some pearls, original haze, the pearly, two pearly phenotypes of the African haze, original haze that we're smoking on right now. Yeah, and it's as good as anything that I've smoked from Sammy's stuff or Band-Aid Haze. It's, you know, it's better than that. It's all long flowering sativa. Awesome. That's where the fire is. Yeah, they're like 18. 18 weeks. That's where you find the really good, the really good Introspective and soaring, you know, kind of highs, I think.

1:19:15SpeakerAlmost trippy. After 57 years of daily smoking, or 58 now, this is still as good as anything I was smoking back in the day. And I smoked some really good weed back in the day. I would say out of our harvest, and I don't know, you might have even seen those, Rob, but the one that he's smoking has been his favorite throughout the whole entire harvest. Like the first time I brought it to him, he was like, wow, he's like, that one's special.

1:19:46SpeakerAnd it's the one that he keeps going back to. Yeah, it's a good one. The African haze, original haze.

1:19:54RobSounds good. I wish I had it here.

1:19:56SpeakerHey, the African haze I got the sample in New York and it's really outstanding. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:20:01BubblemanWhy don't you guys go through some of those pictures, Dave, while we're talking about these? I feel like my mouth needs the water.

1:20:08RobSo good. What's the African side of African haze?

1:20:12SpeakerNigerian, I believe, but I'm not sure. It's Nigerian. I thought it was Malawi for me. It was their Malawi. Yeah, it's the doctor's Malawi. Which I've grown also. I've grown that Malawi cut from the doctor. And it's a great cut, but it really amped up the other side of the Nigerian, I think. It's a cross between Nigerian and Malawi then. What's that? It's a cross between Malawi and Nigerian.

1:20:50SpeakerOkay, okay, okay. Good to know, good to know. Well, you know, Marcus, you need to enable me to share pictures.

1:21:03BubblemanOh, sorry. Go ahead, Mojave. I'll work on this.

1:21:06SpeakerNow, I was going to say that the sage that you guys, the Big Sur Holyweed cut that you guys grow as well, the thing, I mean, it's interesting that the thing that makes that plant special is haze and Malawi, right? And everything else about the architecture and everything is the compromise. Right. Like we were talking about, there's always a compromise in terms of like production. And I think there is a sweet spot where in that 12 to 14 week range where you can get the market, what the market wants, what everybody wants, what the trimmer wants, and then impart the chemistry that you want in there and still pull it over.

1:21:45SpeakerBut It is a compromise, right? And that's a perfect example because I love that African haze to me is like, it's almost, you can get uncomfortably high on that because it's got the sore of the haze and the intensity of that Malawi, that sweaty palm, like almost panic attack feeling. And it's so intense. And then I love it. Yeah. It rips you apart. I could tell you the history of weed because I started it in 68 and I saw, you know, I moved to Humboldt in the late 70s, saw Indica come in.

1:22:23SpeakerWhen I started in the 60s and early 70s, I was growing just long flowering varieties because that's all I had the seeds from that were coming in. And I knew a group of dealers that were bringing it in. And so I had a hell of a collection of seeds and I knew what really good weed was and I knew what just swaggy regular weed was. And everybody back then was trying to cross Mexicans to Colombians to shorten it so that it would finish in time in the California climate.

1:22:59SpeakerWhen I moved to Humboldt, I saw Indica come in. And I knew exactly where the market was going to go because it was big, thick, fat buds, super greasy. You cross that to a sativa, you're going to get something incredible every time. And that's what people did. And it would finish in time and it would make nice buds and it would produce. And so that's what the market was going to go for.

1:23:27SpeakerIt's same thing happened in Jamaica because I've been over there several times. And I saw it go from being really good long flowering varieties to as fast as they could grow it and so they could sell it and make some money. And Dave Deustam to it.

1:24:16BubblemanI just got a black screen. I don't know why it's not sharing. Does anyone? Oh, there it is. There we go.

1:24:21Ryan Dank AfPhotographs. It's about the quality over the production. You got the, I always call them smokers plants versus growers plants. You know, the growers plants, it's all based in economics. And like you said, getting the crop off. I've always been a long flowering.

1:25:07SpeakerMakes sense. Well, you know what? I got to share a quick story. I'm 56, Tony, but I've been smoking weed for well over 50 years. And my first time smoking haze was in 1975 in Hollywood, Purple Haze out in front of our house, grown in Big Sur or Santa Cruz, I'm not sure. As a kid, it was all, you know, everything we ever saw was narrow leaf and late flower, right?

1:25:36SpeakerIt was all. And my dad used to smuggle weed into California and there wasn't a lot of production going on, but there was just a lot of occasional plants being grown in people's backyards and stuff, but they're all narrow leaf. And then I remember, and my brother moved back up to Big Sur in 79 and he was growing up there, or 78. And so all the weed that we were smoking in LA was coming from Big Sur.

1:25:59SpeakerAnd then one year it was 83, I think it was Christmas of 1983. And every year my brother would give us a little jar of weed. And he gives us all a little jar of weed and we smoke it and I turn to my brother, other brother, I've got four older brothers, and I say, hey, what's different about the weed this year? And he leans in and he goes, he crossed it with indica.

1:26:21SpeakerLike this was the year that they crossed everything, everyone, right? And then from that point on, like it was gone. But the point that I'm making is that even a kid, I was 13, even a kid was like, hey man, how come the weed's different? And the response that everyone had was the same that you just gave, which is it was driven by, it was a commercial decision, not a decision about how you want to feel.

1:26:50SpeakerThe people, all the growers are saying like, hey, I want to feel different. Let's grow different types of weeds so we can feel different because people want to smoke weed that makes them feel different. They're saying, no, man, I don't want to get busted. I want it to not mold. I want to make it, get it done before the rains come. I want to be able to grow it in my backyard where it doesn't grow over the garage.

1:27:08SpeakerI want to grow it in my basement. All these decisions And the big part of this I think is important is that that transition was rapid, right? Because it was a seed world back then. The pollen was flying through the air. But the decisions to make the chemistry of the plants before that event Was a long path of human relationship with cannabis all over the world. So people were making the selection for how they wanted to feel, how they wanted to feel.

1:27:36SpeakerAnd this is the weed that came from this region. This is how they wanted it to feel there. And this is a read that came from, that's how they wanted to feel there. And then all of a sudden it was like, I need to make some money. I don't want to get busted. So the whole- Yeah, but the illegality is also at play here. There was resistance all along the way.

1:27:54SpeakerAnd that made people also go for shorter, quicker because they're afraid, right? That's my point. So many things influence a long flowering grove. I mean, back in the day, it had to be outdoors. There was no indoors back then. There was no clones. You had to try and get it to finish on time. And the Mexicans, some of them would finish on time. The Colombian... You know, I've grown a lot, grew a lot of Colombian and it never finished.

1:28:23SpeakerSo, but the weed that it came from was some of the best weed I've ever smoked in my life.

1:28:30Ryan Dank AfWell, it had a lot to do with, it also had a lot to do with where the weed was being grown. Right. Like back then. Right.

1:28:38SpeakerConditions matter. Yeah.

1:28:39Ryan Dank AfAnd, you know, these loose flower types, the loose flower types, that's really the only way that you can get away. You can't take indica down to the tropics and grow it. Right. It just turns to mold. It turns to mush. Right. And part of that is resistance in the flower, but part of it is flower structure as well. Right. So that that loose flower phenotype and the thin leaves is it's really about, you know, the people that were selecting the plants in that given environment.

1:29:06Ryan Dank AfRight. And the environment definitely played its role in shaping the way that haze and, you know, what I call equatorials are all about.

1:29:14RobHaze didn't grow outside either. Haze grew in a greenhouse. It was always the daughter of the greenhouse. It was

1:29:22SpeakerThat's my dream is to grow haze in Santa Cruz. Anybody that can make that happen. Like, you know, somebody else said Santa Cruz about something else. I mean, Santa Cruz is like, There's something magical about things that are produced in Santa Cruz. Climate. Yeah, but I think there's also the type of people that gravitate towards their, understand how to, you know, utilize these awesome things that Santa Cruz has, like the climate, the lax laws, you know, just the acceptability, all the food that's down there.

1:29:58SpeakerI mean, there's just so many awesome things and people and just high quality stuff. When I lived there, it was like people were really into the good stuff, not just weed, good music. And I think it goes hand in hand. Hayes Valley Nursery. Yeah, those guys. The music, the weed and the food.

1:30:22RobYeah, he was always the best of Southern California with the best of Northern California. It's right in the middle there. The same thing could happen in Santa Barbara. The weather is even better at the University of California campuses. They're both towns. But it was just a blending of the minds, you know, and people who got out of L.A. and moved north and people who lived in the Bay Area.

1:30:51RobI mean, Northern California weighed in. Just slightly later, the whole Humboldt phenomenon, it was beginning then, but they started doing the weight of the growing, and that was just because they were more remote. It's easier to get away with it in Humboldt than it was in Santa Cruz. We had the Santa Cruz Mountains. We had the mountains right on the ocean. It's Big Sur, just to the north.

1:31:14RobIt's the same kind of environment.

1:31:16SpeakerIt's a California coast, man, from one end to the other, I think. You know, you can't get much better in the United States for a growing environment like the California. I grew the pearls outdoors in McKinleyville, which is, you know, two miles from the coast. And it finished. It grew fine. So it's fantastic. Because of its disease resistance, it's able to grow outdoors in a very moist, mold-inducing climate where other plants just turn to mush.

1:31:54SpeakerThat one was still growing because it's so open and resistant to PM and botrytis. What about palm trees in America? Why are you not growing in Florida? Yeah. Well, Florida, they grow in Florida, but that's a whole nother story. Florida should be the place where they grow all the equatorial weed and sell it all over the US, but unfortunately you can't. No, but the whole palm trees and redwoods thing of Santa Cruz is really a great metaphor for what it was.

1:32:29SpeakerRob really said it. San Francisco and LA, like they met in between. The redwoods crept all the way down, the palm trees crept all the way up, and it stopped right there in Santa Cruz. The The palms don't grow well further north and the redwoods don't grow well. I grew palms in McKinleyville. I had palms everywhere, all kinds of palms. I love palm trees as much, almost as much as I love weed.

1:32:51SpeakerHe does.

1:32:52RobYou should talk some time in the daytime. All you see behind me in the darkness, it's all palms. We got four or five parlor palm species and a coconut and a beetle palm and they're all here. A raca palm, but yeah, they're all here.

1:33:10SpeakerYeah, I've been humbled. You can grow all the species of Trachycarpus. And I had palms from Columbia, high elevations in Columbia and Thailand, Vietnam. I had all kinds of palm trees.

1:33:28BubblemanWas it a palm tree, Rob, that David brought those insane seeds back home from like, I don't know, the Seychelles? Seychelles, Coco de Mer. Yeah. Poco de Mer. The big giant one. Dude, he just comes out of his room with these seeds. It's like, check this out. I'm like, what the? Yeah. I filled the trunk of my car up, he says. Yeah, I filled the trunk of the rental car up.

1:33:54BubblemanI'm like, you are a fucking madman, dude. But he knew how to.

1:34:00SpeakerThose are rare seeds. They're cool looking seeds. They're huge. They're the largest seed of any plant. That's what he told me.

1:34:09Ryan Dank AfYeah, the tap roots are like six feet long or whatever. He had the know-how, the knowledge to navigate the whole phytosanitary certificate thing from the Seychelles. And he got a whole bunch of them over to Hawaii.

1:34:22BubblemanThat's right. And they're growing in Hawaii. But he also had seeds in Amsterdam.

1:34:28Ryan Dank AfHe did also. Yeah, he did. It's funny, I just got a message from Diana and she just tested out there. She grew some haze plants. You know, David always grew a few plants in the window at the apartment in Amsterdam. So when I was over there, she said, you know, I should grow some stuff. And I said, well, why don't you grow some haze? I know that it's like hard to get it through flowering, but she flowered them out and she was saying how crappy they looked.

1:34:54Ryan Dank AfAnd she just tested some out. A friend of hers is in need of some, uh, So she's got a convulsive disorder. She's shaking a lot with her hand. And so she asked me about THC and I said, well, maybe you could give her some of the haze flower. And so I guess she just ripped some out, smoked a joint. And she said, she whacked out, she's ripped.

1:35:17Ryan Dank AfSo the haze is still doing its thing over in Amsterdam. Yes.

1:35:21SpeakerAnd it's pretty medicinal, like you say. It has medicinal properties. Properties for patients, certain, you know, like epilepsy and everything. So this plant's really good, okay? It's really good.

1:35:33Ryan Dank AfIt is.

1:35:34BubblemanIt makes you feel great. It would be an interesting plant to break into the commercial marketplace and sort of slowly remove people from the cheapest price, highest THC, right? Because the hazes don't really follow that same model. They often have a lower percent of THC. Do you guys see that or are you seeing them as higher?

1:36:00Ryan Dank AfYeah, how did that taste test out for Dominic? Did you get any lab results from that pack or the terpene test too?

1:36:06SpeakerYeah, so we've done some intermittent testing and they check out around 12 to 22%, so not super low, not super high. But for the terp profile, so I have them in the vault right now. So probably going to get them out in April-ish to test them fully on terpenes after everything has developed a little bit more. So we'll see. What about do you also test on flavonoids and things like that and other chemical compounds that are in wheat?

1:36:40SpeakerBecause that would be interesting. That's it, you know.

1:36:45SpeakerThe way that the labs here work is, yeah, they can develop any test or they can test for basically anything, but there is no demand. Like tiles, for example, something that we should be testing for, but...

1:37:01Ryan Dank Afcommercial growers here in europe are not really and step by step i know we're awakening all of them well it's an extra it's an extra methodology because you're yeah you're targeting a very small section of the the chemicals in a gas chromatograph run absolutely called a hard cut so they essentially divert like a very specific section of the I mean, I asked them, but I'm not paying for the development of that.

1:37:28SpeakerWho's going to use that?

1:37:30Ryan Dank AfYeah, that's it.

1:37:50SpeakerBut I have had the hazes set off to the genetics lab. So we'll see what marker information is to be found in those. But the population that I got from you, Ryan, was super diverse. It was incredible. I had super, super early flowering males and profusely flowering, I might add. And I had never going to finish plants and everything in between. But it was a real joy growing them.

1:38:26SpeakerAbsolutely.

1:38:27Ryan Dank AfYeah, those indeterminate flower types, I think that's probably what Neville ran into. He just decided they weren't worth his time or, you know, it wasn't commercially viable. He didn't even, he didn't keep cuttings. And by the time he smoked the product, the plant was long dead.

1:38:45Ryan Dank AfYeah, it's interesting. It's funny because online there's this idea that Hayes is a three-way hybrid with Colombians. But I knew from David that the Hayes brothers, that Rob and Jerry or Robert and Jerry were always crossing in that next thing that they liked, right? They'd find like a tie or they'd find like a really good Mexican or whatever it was. And it would get crossed into the haze.

1:39:10Ryan Dank AfAnd so I always saw haze as like this kind of ever evolving family. And I'm not sure which generations or kind of which line those seeds from David came from. I know he has a whole bunch of different kind of diverse ones in the Horter Farm collection. But yeah, I think that that diversity, Dom, that you speak of really makes sense knowing what we do about the...

1:39:36Ryan Dank AfThe kind of the family generational breeding approach that the Hayes brothers took.

1:39:42SpeakerYeah, so having grown like the Colombian like 20 years ago, just last year before we did the Hayes, we finished a Corolla, an Indian one. And so what I could see from the haces that you gave me, Ryan, was there were some phenotypes had very like tile leaning properties in terms of flower architecture, in terms of smell. And there was one that had a different flower shape.

1:40:15SpeakerBut it had, you could smell like the corolla in it. And I could kind of compare, of course, it's from different eras, but I could kind of compare the profiles and how the plant grows to these like more or less original type plants, you know?

1:40:36RobThe last male to be crossed in, as far as I know, this is information from David, but the last male that... Bob crossed in was Corolla. See, David had brought back and gave to him. And the year before that was Thai. So, I mean, that means if it started out as a Mexican Colombian, then the next year it was half Thai and only half Mexican Colombian. Then the next year it was half Corolla and only, you know, an eighth Mexican and an eighth Thai.

1:41:10SpeakerSo it's a polyhybrid.

1:41:12RobYeah. But it's diluted every time by the male. But you never see the male, the male expression only comes through in the female offspring.

1:41:22SpeakerSo it's... Is that why Navel's Haze A and C were so special? Because they came from an early, you know, like sequence of the original Haze, you think? Yeah. Let me see. Like this was the Indian. You guys see this picture? Yeah. Fuck yeah. Yeah, so I just want to highlight like... For the viewers and listeners, like the extreme diversity of cannabis, of like drug type cannabis.

1:41:52SpeakerAnd I'm sure, Rob, you can attest to that more than I can. But from a visual point of view, on the left hand side, we have a Afghanica leaning hybrid. The modern hybrid. The one on the left in the middle is an indica-leaning hybrid. So what the populace still thinks is sativa dominant. Then the third plant is more like a commercial haze, like an Aryan's haze. And the plant on the right, that's a land-raised corral.

1:42:32SpeakerAnd so those, all these plants were planted at exactly the same time in exactly the same conditions, like straight to flower. So no veg time whatsoever. And you see the difference in plant architecture and in amount of flower sites. Morphology. So you could harvest the far right one, the Indian one. You could do like two harvests a year, maybe three if you're fast enough. While the one on the far left, you can do six to seven harvests a year.

1:43:10SpeakerAnd The way that the far right one makes up is by going in the height. And this is what I was talking about by growing them slightly different, right? So with the far left, you want to have a dense canopy, maybe fetch them somewhat. But on the right, you know, it's a different situation. So this was that corolla. So growing in the greenhouse. Yeah. And so, well, what I talked about earlier is that like they shed their fan leaves quite fast.

1:43:45SpeakerSo the last couple of weeks is pretty much without, without any families. Again, really nice, really nice flowers. So when harvest time is around the corner, it's all flowers on a, on a branch, you know, on a stake. And how long did it flower, Dominic, this one? That one was 116 days. It's reasonable. What a monstrous plant. Beautiful. It's Kircarella, this one. Yeah. That's no veg, Don?

1:44:14SpeakerWhat's the fragrance? I don't do any veg. Never.

1:44:18Ryan Dank AfSo when you say a number of days, you mean from seed?

1:44:22SpeakerYeah, from seed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Correct. Correct. Wow. So what's the fragrance of this one, Dominic? Can you elaborate? The fragrance, the aromatherapy, the terpene profile. This one? From the corral, you mean? Yeah. Herbal, little mango-ish, but with a funk and a dank in it. Very complex, hard to explain. Not super... But it's dark. It's sweet, dark and relaxing. Yeah. I still have some lying in the fridge.

1:45:00SpeakerSo this was, I think I have to download the other pictures from the days.

1:45:05Ryan Dank AfSo this is a hard time. We should be able to get you access to sending some of your samples to a Canadian laboratory that might have more volatiles.

1:45:15SpeakerSure.

1:45:16Ryan Dank AfBecause, you know, this wouldn't be a recreational shipment. It would be a scientific investigation. So it's permitted under the regs.

1:45:25SpeakerHere, for example, we have a Thai plant that we grew the year before we grew the hazes. This is the harvest of one Honduras landrace. Wow. So came out at three kilograms, branches on a bud.

1:45:44Ryan Dank AfSo it's more just to kind of help people understand your vertical system is kind of what I called like a vertical scrog.

1:45:51SpeakerYeah, exactly.

1:45:52Ryan Dank AfIt's like a screen of green. You're not really weaving the plants too, too much, but it's really vertical. It's a smart setup. Do you have any of the pictures that show like the length or the width of the plant in your system?

1:46:04SpeakerYeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking through them. There you go. So here, for example, what you see on the picture is that's one plant, right? So I saw that.

1:46:16Ryan Dank AfSo home growers could do this in a small room with like, you know, the new LED style kind of stuck to the wall, right?

1:46:24SpeakerThis was this was one of the earlier setups where we selected from a population of AG 13 back cross with Colombian. We selected a research genetic that we can use in our trials. So

1:46:45SpeakerWe had to like select based on flowering time. And this is our 50 day quote unquote haze that we have. And this was one of the first plants where we did the inter canopy lighting trial with. So these are all clones. No Veg from Clone. And it's when we had back these results, these plans that we went farther. So in this setup, we had 50% top light, 50% on the inter canopy in terms of what is.

1:47:18SpeakerThis is an interesting one. This is one from Papua New Guinea. So I had a seed batch from 1979 from Papua New Guinea. That was passed down to me by a collector back in the day. So it spent like almost 20 years in my freezer. I had about 120 seats of it left and it took about 14 days for one to pop up, which was just basically a runt.

1:47:42SpeakerBut we managed to flower it was like 18 weeks and it had these like baseball bats. A little bit AG13 structure-wise. Yeah, that exactly reminds me of that structure. Beautiful plants. What was interesting about this plant is the regularity of the inter-nordal distance that I found striking on this plant. Great structure. I'm going to quickly download the other pictures, Ryan, from the hazes so you can see them full up.

1:48:15SpeakerBeautiful.

1:48:19BubblemanSo, man, I enjoyed looking at all those plants. It's exciting for me to A, be smoking again, flower, B, only going to smoke haze, and C, having a haze plant right here that I can just start growing right away. I can start and I know all of these amazing people with amazing cuts of different plants. It doesn't seem to follow the same sort of fear and scarcity vibe that...

1:48:49BubblemanThe other sort of marketplace does where it's like, don't share things, make sure you keep everything to yourself. Make sure it's like this is a different kind of scene, this haze scene where it's like, wow, if you don't share it, it is gone.

1:49:04SpeakerYeah.

1:49:04BubblemanGotta keep it alive. Yeah.

1:49:07SpeakerIt's friends, eh?

1:49:09RobI really like saying the land-raised diversity you just clicked through. That's fantastic to me.

1:49:16Ryan Dank AfRight?

1:49:18RobAll the different stuff. So many grows you go to, okay, if you walk up and squeeze them, they smell different, but it's just a little bit different. But that's just obviously, you're not smelling them, you're not smoking them, you're just looking at them and you go, wow, look at all that diversity. That's amazing.

1:49:34BubblemanYeah, totally. It makes you really want to smell the plants.

1:49:37Ryan Dank AfThere's a lesson in there too. I mean, you know, those 16 seeds that I gave Dom, how many females did you get from that Dom? Eight?

1:49:45SpeakerNo, no, no, a lot more. David, you used to jokingly say it's about 60 to 70% are females. And that's exactly what I had. So I still keep a few males. I lost a really, really early one. But I did open pollination with all the females that I had with the very early ones. So I do have some second generation seeds of those. But yeah.

1:50:13Ryan Dank AfTo my point, even in those 10 seeds, you had a huge amount of diversity.

1:50:19SpeakerSuper. Every plant was different, Ryan. Every single plant was different.

1:50:23Ryan Dank AfWell, that's my point. Like, When you're talking about, like Marcus, when you're talking about your seeds there, that plant came from a reproduction of positronics haze, which was a reproduction of David's work, right? Of David's seeds. So you're already three generations removed. And at this point in time, like when we, like even, even what we said earlier, haze isn't one thing. It's a whole series of things that were like Colombian repeatedly diluted by Two different or multiple different land or other pollen donors, right?

1:50:56Ryan Dank AfSo it's really like haze is like, All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk a little bit about what

1:51:29Ryan Dank AfMark, the markets, the haze that you're growing is arguably very different from what Dom has grown. We all call them haze.

1:51:37BubblemanWell, I think every seed that Dom cracked was different. Exactly. From the same batch of seeds. Yeah, of course. So we said it earlier. It's the same way in Jamaica they call it the lamb's bread. But it's just that there's no single lamb's bread. And I don't think there was ever a single Mullumbimby Madness. It was just this sort of like... All of those names that a certain area got that was like, and so I'd always just, you know, you just try to find those, those kind of unique flavor profiles that sort of hit that nostalgic box for, but you're right.

1:52:10BubblemanThere's an endless amount of variety in it from frankincense to myrrh to camphor to... Like we learned on the breeding, you know, that breeding talk a few weeks ago.

1:52:22Ryan Dank Afyou can have a huge difference in the direction of a project just based on your own personal plant selection and also numbers like if you're growing just a few plants like you're kind of limited to what you get right and so you know aryan's haze versus some other haze you know somebody else's reproduction they're all really different things

1:52:47SpeakerI remember the beauty about it, you know, that everybody can do his own thing and, you know, build this own kind of, you know, personal preference line.

1:52:55Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, within genetic diversity, you have the opportunity. Yeah, within genetic diversity, you have the opportunity for Finding those interesting recombinant plants.

1:53:04SpeakerThat's it. And that's why I always say, like, instead of competing with each other, you should appreciate the variation that is, you know, within this gene pool, because everybody can do his own fragrance, so to speak, like perfume or whatever. Okay.

1:53:17Ryan Dank AfI mean, for me, the work competition and like a plant breeding context is such a, like, it's just such a dichotomy, right? Like it's a mentality that's like, to me, is really born out of like motorsports. I got a bigger engine than you.

1:53:32BubblemanBut you don't think it's a part of plants and breeding? Like how many apples succeeded? How many bananas succeeded? How many, like, it's not a competition?

1:53:41SpeakerYeah, but that doesn't mean that commercial apples are better than the homegrown and the garden.

1:53:46BubblemanNo, no, I just mean competition for success. If winning is numbers.

1:53:50SpeakerThen it becomes something different. Then it becomes not about the flavor.

1:53:53BubblemanWell, no, it becomes a styrofoam apple from Safeway or the styrofoam. The Styrofoam tomato, right? Not the same as an heirloom tomato that tastes incredible and has expressed all these flavor profiles.

1:54:08Ryan Dank AfYou got to remember, when Darwin said survival of the fittest, he didn't mean the biggest guy that could run the fastest or the longest. The most adaptable. No, fitness meant fecundity. So fecundity is like your ability to leave offspring. So technically, like the redneck dude in the trailer park with 10 kids has higher fitness than the guy running the marathons with no kids.

1:54:35SpeakerAnd on the apple thing, so in nature, the apples is survival of the fittest, but in commerce, the apples are survival of the clone.

1:54:43Ryan Dank AfRight.

1:54:44BubblemanSo if you go back... Because the apple does fall far from the tree.

1:54:49SpeakerVery, very far, exactly. So in nature, it is still competing with the general, just as Ryan mentioned, but in the market, and I think that's important for cannabis as well, is that... In that haze population, it wasn't about selecting one plant to be mass reproduced. It was a group of people selecting maybe, Rob, you could actually maybe speak to this. But haze, I mean, haze describes, in a sense, the effect.

1:55:14SpeakerIt's like, man, you smoke this weed, you're going to go off into a haze. You're going to feel this lifty, floaty feeling. And as long as everyone was making those selections for that effect, Then whether it was Thai, Colombian, Indian or not, you still have the same, the line still represented something of what haze was meant to be, as opposed to just crossing it with an Afghani and then calling it haze.

1:55:39SpeakerLike a lot of the hazes out there today are heavily influenced by their hybrid hazes.

1:55:44Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, terpenylene is dominant, right? Terpenylene dominance is dominant over every other terpene profile, more or less.

1:55:53RobThere are two things that you see that really come through. You have the terpenylene dominance in the aroma, but You also have the laddery flower structure, the open structure. So it's like a ladder, a chain. And you see that, look at Katsu Haze. Katsu Haze is not particularly Terpinalini. Katsu is a coffee shop in the Netherlands, okay? And they have their signature variety there. The only one they put their name on is Katsu Haze.

1:56:22RobThey also have Amnesia Haze. That's a... When they came, I believe from, from the Soma side. And those are their two most expensive because they're the longest and hardest to produce. And also the most special things that they, that they market. But you still see that laddery effect in the Katsu haze. It's a fairly dense bud overall, but each little branchlet within the, within the flower is a ladder.

1:56:47RobAnd that's, uh, That's one trait that really comes through in them. And that and the terpenylate. Otherwise, they could be pretty much all over the map. The important thing is the absence of Afghan. That's really the important, you know.

1:57:04Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, and that's kind of the thing, you know, like I was saying earlier with the diversity. Like Dom, you crossed all the females to the male, right? But you're going to lose any recessive traits. Yep. That are coming out. So, you know, I would say like the population open pollination or using some males. That's a great example right there. Is a good step. But like you still have the ability to reverse those special plants and make some selves.

1:57:30Ryan Dank AfAnd I would argue that those seeds are like more valuable for breeding than seeds. Yeah. You know, and I know, given the context of your topic about the high percentage of intersex plants in the feminized crosses, you know, there's a debate there, I guess, to be had. Yeah. I think, I do think, though, that when you start making more of your own seeds and you're growing other people's seeds less, that you'll see less incidence of intersex, right?

1:57:59Ryan Dank AfLike, my point in that conversation was really about, like, Intersexuality isn't really about the way the seeds were made. It was about the parents that were used to the seeds.

1:58:12SpeakerAnd how they were cultivated.

1:58:15Ryan Dank AfYeah.

1:58:17SpeakerOkay, so you ready for some Hayes pictures?

1:58:21BubblemanYeah, yeah. Dude, are you kidding me? I've been loving these pictures.

1:58:25Ryan Dank AfLook at the resin on that last one. Can you go back one, Don?

1:58:28BubblemanThat one.

1:58:28Ryan Dank AfResin on the leaves, like when the flowers are so immature, that's a lot of resin on those leaves.

1:58:32SpeakerYeah, that's a Laos phenotype.

1:58:36RobInteresting. Yeah.

1:58:38SpeakerYeah. And so we're doing a, currently we're doing a cool experiment with our Laos, seeing if we can reduce the flowering time by a week or two. So keep your eyes open for that one. By the way, you cultivated, you mean, Dom? Yeah. Giving it positive stress, let's say. Yeah, well. And flower it as early as possible. Okay, okay. I'm not going to spoil anything, yeah. So, just for example.

1:59:05Ryan Dank AfI won't ask you that question. Here's the vertical scrog, you can see. Yeah. How would you say, how many meters or centimeters deep is that canopy from the frame? Like from the trellis?

1:59:21SpeakerThat's about 40 centimeters, so well over a foot on each side.

1:59:26Ryan Dank AfYeah, not that much over a foot though, maybe like 14 inches, 15 inches.

1:59:30SpeakerHere you see it better. Some branches tend to really grow out. So this plant, you'll see it from the side soon enough, but this is from the head of the table. So you kind of see where we had the lighting set up. And by that point, I already lowered the lighting because I was going to harvest it. So this is the plan.

1:59:52Ryan Dank AfDoc, last one question there. Light to light? What's the depth of light from either side?

1:59:57Speaker40, 40 centimeters.

1:59:59Ryan Dank AfOh, but it was 80 from light to light. Yeah, 80 from light to light. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So almost a meter.

2:00:07SpeakerAlmost a meter of space in between the lights, yeah. But if you look at that, like, that's one plant. And we tried to bend it down so not to have it overly, you know, growing past the lights. But we had several phenotypes, several plants that did grow beyond the top lights even. So that was pretty crazy.

2:00:29Ryan Dank AfWere these straight to seed flower or no?

2:00:31SpeakerYeah, yeah, yeah.

2:00:33Ryan Dank AfReally, that was planted under 12-12.

2:00:34SpeakerYeah, yeah, yeah. Well, actually under 11, 11 and a half. You know what? You kind of need to with those type of plants.

2:00:45Collin PalmerHave you tried these from clone after running from seed?

2:00:51SpeakerNot yet, but I'm planning to, depending on how well our Laos experiment is going to work, but I think we're in for some cool stuff in the coming months. I'm curious to see. Look at the flowers. Look at the flower structure. The ones on the top are

2:01:14SpeakerThe same structure as the ones on the bottom. So here we have two plants that yielded about two kilograms dry weight of flowers each. How many weeks? It was 165 days. Actually, one was 164 because it took me an entire day to pull it down.

2:01:43SpeakerAnd the pot is quite small, actually. It's 18 liters, so it's like three and a half gallons. Wow. So when we take it down from the net, the thing just bends over. It just flops.

2:02:00BubblemanYeah. I want to get some of that floppy haze.

2:02:06SpeakerDude, I mean, it was like, it was a pretty happy one to hold up. But yeah, so, I mean, is it commercially viable? I think so. Right. It's just as Dave and Tony said, you need to present it in a different way. But in terms of biomass yield, commercial biomass yield, it's the most commercial that is. I mean, you can fetch a higher price for it because it's so rare, et cetera, et cetera.

2:02:39SpeakerBut for like processing, it says nearly no families left on it, you know, so quick processing as a second generation pig. So what I do want to show you guys is two different graphs, temperature and relative humidity. So here we have Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:03:23SpeakerAnd it drops down to about 75 during the day. So temperature is relatively smooth. But what happens when you introduce inter canopy lights inside a canopy, you create heat. And that heat makes it so that your microclimate in terms of humidity is much better managed so you have less swings uh overall relative humidity is a lot lower a lot more stable depending on where you measure of course you're gonna have a little bit more temperature spikes but still we're we're talking about a couple of degrees celsius but i just wanted to show this in terms of um

2:04:13SpeakerYeah, that's a little bit normal. So I think like this style with covering the light that a plant like haze or other, you know, long, long flowering, high stretchy cultivars have, I think adjusting your lights to Get the same light distribution overall. So Dominic, Dominic, can you grow this in greenhouses with light deprivation in our summertime, right? And so like from May, so that would be brilliant because then you have some herbs.

2:04:47SpeakerOkay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. So, but, you know, that's all up for discussion. I do know we have tested this with the haze, as you see here, but we've also done the Laos, which gave amazing results. Pearl types we've done in this system, which is great. You know, the Malawi we've done, the Honduras. So I'm trying to see the Laos.

2:05:18Ryan Dank AfThe other thing that we should mention because it's a haze show is the idea of flowering clones like Colin was saying. I was talking with Dom earlier about rooting clones. We used to do this with a plant called Sweet Skunk we have here. It's also a haze phenotype at least. And we would flower the plant without veg at all. So you either flower the clones under 12-12 or you just as soon as the plant's rooted, you'd put them into a hydro system at 12-12.

2:05:53Ryan Dank AfAnd that short, you know, that, that you're, what you're doing is depriving the plant of vegetative cues, right? That that plant builds up and those cues kind of become in a way of resistance for the plant to flower. Right. And so you can control haze or plant morphology by just growing a ton of clones and flowering them early. So I'm interested to see what happens if you do that, Dominique.

2:06:20SpeakerWell, why not take cuttings on 12-12?

2:06:23Ryan Dank AfExactly. Oh, yeah, I guess too.

2:06:28SpeakerYeah. It's been a greenhouse, I would suggest. If you look at this flower, this is from a Laos type. Oh man, I want to crush that flower up so bad. Like I did zero trimming on this. So the leaf to flower ratio on this particular cultivar is insane.

2:06:48Ryan Dank AfYeah, that's beautiful.

2:06:51SpeakerAnd so if breeders can select for those attributes that, you know, then... That's what you want to have. That's it. What cultivar is that one, Dominic? This is a Laos. Laos. Laos. Yeah. Let it cure for like three months, man. Oh, but this one cures really, really fast, eh? Okay, okay. So this is already after one month, eh? Yeah, that's because you cultivate it right. Then, you know, like you take off the chlorophyll residue anyway before, like you chop it, and then one cure, and then bam, you're on it.

2:07:23SpeakerThat's it, man. Great work, man. Really good. Props to you. That's a good future for Hayes. We did a trial once with the Hayes hybrid at a facility in LA indoors. And it was about a 12-weeker and 12, 13-week plant. It's a hybrid. And it grew like a beast. And it was trying to do a licensing deal with this company. And it was right in the middle of the time when in California, all terpenylene dominant plants were labeled jack terps.

2:08:03SpeakerBecause the jack cut had gotten so widely distributed and everyone had grown it. And all the distribution guys were like, oh, we don't buy jack terp weed, right? And so these guys grew these plants. They were struggling with the 12 week thing. Like we're struggling, we're struggling because we've got to give it a whole room because it won't, we can't grow any other cultivar side by side because they'll fuck it up, you know, which is always what happens with long flowering trials is they try to squeeze it in a room or in a greenhouse.

2:08:32SpeakerAnd it's like, even if you give it the extra time, it's like, no, all the inputs, the temperature, the humidity, everything that you did along the way, You got to do it to that plant or else it's not going to be fair. Anyway, they ran the trial. The flower came out pretty good and they were struggling. And I asked the guy and had an R&D. I'm like, all right, now just give me a breakdown per day.

2:08:55SpeakerHow much money do you make per day in that facility per cultivar? Cause that's the number you guys should be looking at. Not, is it nine weeks? Is it 10 weeks? Is it anything? It's like, no, you guys have a facility you're trying to profit. And they did it and they broke down and their top selling variety, which was an eight week run something, Made the same exact amount of money per day in the facility as the 12 week.

2:09:19SpeakerI'm like, do you see? Right? And they're like, wow, I didn't think of it that way. And I'm like, yeah, but you're also not, you're not calculating in this equation veg time at all. This is just flower room. You're not calculating into this equation post-processing and labor. They're not putting any of that in. And then you're not even putting into the equation the morale and all the things that happen to do six flips a year.

2:09:45SpeakerWell, yeah, no, that's that's the type totally like these are just plant guys, right? They're like total nerd plant guys. And I've been thinking about the drug component. And then like six flips a year for facilities. Like I met the CEO one time, he was so proud that he had, we do six turns a year on a two-tier thing. And I'm like, dude, what are you talking about?

2:10:03SpeakerYou're just talking about, I'm like, well, what if you could do four flips a year and get the same amount of yield I think everyone's getting happier. Just inputs, you know. Anyway, they've never thought of it that way. They've never even done the math, right? Because their mentality was locked into this market, which OG kind of claimed.

2:10:24Ryan Dank AfWell, that's one of the reasons why the tissue culture model has kind of failed in cannabis is because they sold themselves as an alternative to cloning. Right. But the cost to produce a tissue culture plant is really high. And so it works for things like if you're planting an orchard for fruit trees or like a vineyard where the plants, you don't have to plant once every like, you know, many hundreds or many tens of years, say at least, you know, when you're planting six times a year, like you have more planting costs.

2:10:54Ryan Dank AfRight? It's more time. It's more cleaning. It's more turnover. It's...

2:10:58SpeakerThe media alone, dude. Media got really expensive during COVID and stuff like that. And there were shortages and stuff on cocoa. You couldn't get the cocoa you wanted. There was perlite shortages. It was weird. So now it's like just that alone, these things, you guys are not really looking at the big picture. And to me, the hard part was just in this whole trial was that the consumer wasn't there wanting it.

2:11:19SpeakerEveryone loved the weed. Everything was great. And that's why the Dutch, the Netherlands, it's so important to remember that they kept the consumer alive for Hayes. Because they know what they're going to get and they're willing to pay for it. So there's a grower who's still going to grow it. Yeah, and it's not about it being anything other than amazing weed. So it's like as soon as the consumer learns that, which is what Tony and Dave are doing, teaching the consumer, let them experience it.

2:11:53SpeakerAnd our experience, you know, like in the early aughts and like in the early days of dispensaries, it was kind of like, you know, you just put it out there and once people got it, They loved it. And that was the day there was lots of Jack, Trainwreck, NL5, Hayes, was all over California. You know what I mean? And it was all the top, the highest selling, the fastest selling out stuff.

2:12:16SpeakerSo it's just another 20 years later, now we have to find the consumer again and let them experience it. And see that that weed lasts a lot longer and make them. Educate them. Yeah, and let them. Well, they just got to pay more. That's the big one. It's like you got to commit to paying more, just like an olive, you know.

2:12:34Ryan Dank AfThere's something else that I think plays into this conversation a lot of people don't keep in mind. Marcus is over here with the Valenvaris machine not too long ago and testing some samples. And we were looking through these old hybrids I have, Conroy hybrids. And half the ones we tested were in the 20% range, but the other half were in the like 12% range. And Marcus rolled up a joint of that.

2:12:57Ryan Dank AfAnd what were your thoughts on that plant, Mark?

2:13:01BubblemanWe're talking about the 14 week, you mean? The one that I was given in the mail?

2:13:05Ryan Dank AfNo, the one that you were smoking here when your hair left. All right. That was, what was that? The Congo? It was a Congo hybrid. Yeah, it was one of the right.

2:13:15BubblemanIt was it was interesting. I mean, it didn't it didn't check the box like the like the haze checks the box for me, but neither did the Congo. You know, this weed checked a different box than either of those two, which I guess for me is just reminiscent of the 16 week haze that I used to grow.

2:13:33Ryan Dank AfThat was the thing is those things weren't. Because that was done in a commercial facility, they had those plants had to be cut at like, I think they were the 12th week. So like those lower testing samples were just not mature. They weren't, they weren't frosting up. But the thing I was trying to highlight was that you remember you're talking about having like a very clear and up kind of effect.

2:13:56Ryan Dank AfRight. And there's something to do with the THC level and how it influences like the type of effect. Right. So I don't know how, how strong are your, Dave, how strong are your, not strong, what's the THC content of your pearl phenotypes? And that's why I was wondering too, Dominique, what, what those readings were on the hazes?

2:14:19Archive SeedsYeah.

2:14:24Ryan Dank AfLike the ones that you kept, were they the higher THC content flowers?

2:14:28SpeakerNo, I kept as much as I could keep. So I kept also the lower THC ones.

2:14:36Ryan Dank AfOkay.

2:14:37SpeakerSo, but yeah, I mean, But when you sample them, Dom, which are the most striking to you? In high effect, I mean, you know, like what Ryan described. The ones that are like, that qualify for the ceilingless label. And the psychedelic effects are around 17, 18%. So you test them on other cannabinoids like CBN, CBD, the synergy between it? Because what makes this high so specific? I don't know because I got a Malawi that is 26% THC.

2:15:20SpeakerRight. It's it's super heavy, but it's it doesn't have that ceilingless attribute to it. Right. But it's higher than THC. So it's not what we're looking for only. It's the synergy between all of these molecules. So I think, you know, like we're just at the beginning of discovering this.

2:15:45SpeakerIt's funny because I always thought terpinoline was responsible for, you know, the ceilingless stuff. The up high. The up high. The last exhaustive. It's not the same thing as sealing this per se. So we have a variety so that we select it to finish in 50 days that has about 41%, 45% on average of the terpene profile is terpenoline.

2:16:20SpeakerAnd that one gets you really up, up, up. But it's not ceilingless. It's not the same thing. And which are the ceilingless? Can you describe it? What's the third profile? And say the flower time. Yeah.

2:16:37SpeakerSo the ceilingless one is the one of 165 days. So long flowering time. And maybe it's that. Maybe it's a different ratio of ripened trichomes with stuff in it. Yeah, definitely. I don't know until we can do a full... Sounds logical. The longer you let it run, the more, you know, the richness and the trichomes will grow on it. If you look at the trichomes, because new ones are being produced while other ones are like almost fully...

2:17:07SpeakerThey're opening up. Yeah. Yeah. So you have... And that's what brings the gold. Yeah. Yeah. So you have like this window in which you could... Wide spread variety. It's wider. It's richer.

2:17:20SpeakerLike grapes and everything, okay? If you make wine from good grapes that are, you know, harvested at a certain point, then you have this high standard quality you cannot achieve with like, you know, and so the values of making these grapes and the climate that's there and, you know, like... So it's complex to pinpoint it. I know what you mean, man. But it's beautiful also by that.

2:17:44SpeakerFor me, I still haven't figured that out, the ceiling list. We're doing it together. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, as we get more haze-like or longer flowering varieties onto the market by people like Dave and Tony, if we get more people coming through our facility and seeing those long flowering varieties in action, so to speak, and appreciate They will have this next month. But also appreciate the way of growing it, how easy, so to speak, that is, how not labor-intensive at all that is.

2:18:23SpeakerThat might just incentivize more people over the coming years to give those genetics a try and offer that to patients. And as we get, if we can do that, then we can get more reporting on what the effects actually are and we can combine. But so far, you know, it's, it's a rarity, like here in, in the Netherlands, we're quite lucky that as was said, you know, the Haze was kept alive by people like you, Sammy, um, or the Haze hybrids, uh, I must say, but There's an entrance for it in Holland because it was on the menu for years.

2:19:03SpeakerAnd so people got to appreciate it for what it is. If you look at what is coming from Cali illegally into the coffee shops, it's all candy gas. It has these, you know, funny, funky names, but it all smells the same. And if I smell a lot, if I give you a Malawi and I give you a Laos and I give you an Indian, you're going to have three totally different samples and experiences.

2:19:31SpeakerYou know, and that diversity with the consumer has kind of been overshadowed by the sudden avalanche of mass produced commercial flowers that was, you know, more of the same. And it's it still is more of the same. So and as the population that have some that has some experience with older varieties grows, nostalgia will come in, will kick in and there will be a renaissance In my mind, there will be a renaissance of exo-cognac varieties of cannabis.

2:20:06SpeakerAnd I can't wait for that to happen because I think cannabis will be much more appreciated by people that don't appreciate it right now or just appreciate one side of its effect spectrum. They are uneducated yet. So we are here to educate them, man. So what we're doing, props for you. Renaissance, man.

2:20:28RobSo it's something that you've never had. I mean, you've got to have it. You've got to try it first to want it. Yeah. If you build it, they work well. It's so monotonous, exactly what you're saying. It might smell slightly different, you know, something's strawberries, something's bananas, but they're all the same effect, and they're all agronomically the same thing. That's what's driven it all. It's what's made it a single track.

2:20:53SpeakerYeah.

2:20:54RobSo it's something I've been... Guys, I'm going to sign out here. I'm going to, like... All right, Rob.

2:20:58BubblemanActually, thanks for coming on and sharing Hayes stories with us, Rob. Appreciate you.

2:21:02RobOh, good, man. Oh, good. I love seeing you guys. I wish I could do this more often, but I'll be back at a better time zone someday. So, yeah.

2:21:10SpeakerWhenever you are in Amsterdam, come over.

2:21:14RobYeah, for sure. For sure. I will, Dom. That's a nice invitation. I'll do it. All right. Check you this summer sometime.

2:21:21SpeakerAll right. Perfect.

2:21:22RobAwesome. Love y'all.

2:21:23SpeakerBless up, buddy. Yeah, something I've been curious about since this is Hash Church is, you know, I see a lot of hash and rosin that's really light in color. And I feel like people are pearling it, let's just call it premature or early to get that color. Whereas, you know, I'm looking at it from like, when is it going to be the best in terms of effect and the resin and all that?

2:21:51SpeakerAnd so we took some pearls to 20 weeks and froze them. And I feel like, you know, the color is darker, maybe a little bit. Because of that. And so that's something that I've struggled with. Like, okay, here's where the market is, what it's used to. But a lot of that is like, you know, pulled at six, seven weeks. You get something that's visually not what people expect.

2:22:17SpeakerThat can be a problem. But I'm just, you know, I'm not really a hash head. It's people eat with their eyes a lot of times. And until they experience something like a darker hash that takes them somewhere where they love it, They're going to go for the light stuff, even though it's only seven weeks. In my opinion, the longer it flowers, usually the better experience. You got to find the right ones.

2:22:45SpeakerIt's not every plant that you grow and you got to get the conditions right for it to express properly. But once it does that and you find it and you pass it around your friends, everybody's loving it. So, yeah, I mean, it's a matter of experience breaking the norm.

2:23:04Collin PalmerYeah, I think you guys are on the right track. I don't know how everyone else feels, but I've definitely taken note of, you know, taking varietals really far and seeing super light resin. And it's really about the chemical constituents that is in the resin. If there's more alcohols, it dries off faster and it starts to oxidize more. Sometimes those varietals, you know, a lot of orange forward or, you know, things that are in that spectrum are not, you're usually darker in my experience.

2:23:37Collin PalmerAnd, you know, it's not necessarily when you're pulling stuff, honestly, because I've seen it go both ways for people where they've shown me resin that they pulled early that was darker. But it's also processing techniques like Mojave pulled up a traditional temple ball and Um, so there's, there's a lot of ways to get to color is what I'm kind of highlighting, but I, I, I don't recommend anyone to pull plants for any reason early.

2:24:03Collin PalmerLike, it's like, why do all that work and literally cut yourself short of the, the voluntary compounds that are developing, you know, so.

2:24:13SpeakerThis is, uh, this is actually dry sift, um, but it's aged flower. Flower was aged for like two years before I, I've sifted it and pressed it. But also I can say it's so wild that, you know, Rob, Rob would have commented on this and David and Rob all both had different theories about it. But I think it's just fascinating how you press glands and they get dark and then sometimes they get light again.

2:24:38SpeakerAnd so there's a whole bunch of things like, you know what I mean? And it's whether it's water, whether it's the hydrocarbons doing their thing. It's fucking fascinating. And a lot of resin, a lot of resin just will not go dark. And I only go old school. I don't make rosin. I don't make anything. I only press hash. And no matter how much heat you give it, no matter how much anything, Some of it just stays in that gray zone and then some of it just fluffs out, whites out as Rob and Davies call it, go whitey.

2:25:09SpeakerYou know, where it's suddenly like three days later, it's like, oh, it's hard rock and you crack it open and it's crumbly and lighter color all of a sudden. And there's just a certain kind of resin that has that bindability And that color. And I think it's that binding thing. And in the spectrum, haze is horrible for it. It's like, it's one of the worst.

2:25:29Collin PalmerYeah, it's hard for color. It's hard. It's like snow lotus.

2:25:33SpeakerExtract. It's hard to knock those glands off those. I think haze is too beautiful. It's flowers to make extracts from. Yeah, right. Exactly. That's it. It's too sacred.

2:25:45BubblemanNo, it's not. I just smoked a dab of the haze and it is. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

2:25:51SpeakerOkay. When you do it, it is incredible that you have like, you know, so you have original hay seeds and you grow like all phenotypical expressions together and you collect resin from all of it and then you make hash.

2:26:06BubblemanHmm.

2:26:07SpeakerLovely.

2:26:09BubblemanI would run down. Hey, welcome to Fletch. You snuck in while we were talking. I just wanted to welcome Archive.

2:26:16Archive SeedsYeah, for sure. Thanks. I think the most... You know, obvious thing for color of hash is just oxidation of compounds. I think the freeze dryer kind of proves most of that for you that you can see the difference between oxidized air dried hash and non-air dried and then minimizing your oxidation through all your environmental controls if you are air drying. The other thing is like with the color of hash, in my experience, If oxidation is the main culprit, which I think we can all agree that things turn color over time due to oxidation, at the end of the day, whether you take it 20 weeks or five weeks or whatever it is, the color is really just going to be a representation of the ratio of oxidized compounds versus non-oxidized compounds when you harvest.

2:27:13Archive SeedsEvery different variety has a different maturation of its trichomes and some varieties start producing trikes early that fade off and those are the ones you end up with a lot of ambers visually and then you have the varieties that don't really put on much resin and then boom dump it all at the same time those are probably going to be have less amber heads because it it produces all the compounds at more of a consistent rate relative to each other of the trichome formation rather than stages of it where they that where they And so just a higher concentration of degraded trichomes, whether that's due to varietal, flower time, oxidation in your room, light exposure, et cetera, is probably going to have the biggest impact on your quote unquote color beyond your drying process and the oxidation that occurs during your drying process.

2:28:08BubblemanWell, I will say that cultivars that seem to be terpenylene dominant or narrow leaf drug cultivars tend to have a darker resin. When I make rosin with those or hash, they are darker consistently. This one is legitimately like the way it came, and I'm sure the guy didn't make it very long ago. It's very small now because I've been dabbing it out, but I guarantee you this resin, this rosy, it looks like something that I forgot about and left for like three months in my drawer and then came back to open.

2:28:39BubblemanIt's got like a waxier, thicker sort of skin on the rosin that's different from these white, very light-colored... It's too bad that people are triggered to not like that. And I get why they don't like it because it's like, oh, well, that was like what happened to all the ones that I didn't really like that I left in my drawer. They all kind of look like that.

2:29:03BubblemanBut it's like you have to get past how it looks. And you have to get into how it feels because there is no other aspect of cannabis that has a, this is like a niche within a niche within a niche. That's what the haze lovers are. That's what you guys all are. It's pretty awesome.

2:29:25Archive SeedsWell, one thing I wanted to touch on with the highs too really quick, if we go backwards just a second, is just like if we haven't identified what the compounds are that cause that where you have all these people that have a similar experience from haze, how do we know that it's actually compound related and it's not just some sort of confirmation bias that we've basically moved forward with in weed?

2:29:52Archive SeedsBecause like for me personally, I've never really like thought that Hayes has like a ceilingless high or all the all the nuances that a lot of other people tend to experience. I think I just smoke so much herb. I don't notice as much of a difference. It doesn't seem to be quite as drastic of an experience change for me personally. Now, on that part of it, it's like, well, is it an actual chemical that's causing a different experience?

2:30:22Archive SeedsOr is it just kind of like bias that we already have?

2:30:26BubblemanBut even if it's confirmation bias, will it not still work on the same mechanisms that the chemical would have worked on anyway?

2:30:35Archive SeedsThe question really is, do people experience that blind tested, right? That's where what it boils down to is like, I can have my confirmation bias that I don't notice it because of my experience growing and everybody else can have their experience with it having a discernible effect. But until we can identify either A, what the compounds are, or B, can confirm it through Thank you. Thank you.

2:31:02Archive SeedsThank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:31:27SpeakerAnd I always kept that with me. That's my bias. I mean, I saw the microscope had that too. Yeah, the amber trichomes matter. And I think the range of mature to immature gives you that spectrum of feelings and depth of high.

2:31:55Archive SeedsI don't think we've even identified what causes it yet, which is the interesting part of the whole difference between sativa and indica thing. We haven't even identified it, but we have all this confirmation of experience.

2:32:07BubblemanYeah, well, it tastes, it also tastes extremely different. So we don't, like, I don't think that's a biased confirmation. I think we all can agree, like, oh, there's that. Like my wife the other day, I put it under her nose and she's like, oh, what is that? I'm like, well, it's kind of like a, kind of like a cat piss smell a little bit. Because this one's really like on the hard edge of terpene lean where it's almost like, it's Thank you so much for joining us.

2:32:53BubblemanAnd I think like that's a pretty good, I don't know if that's confirmation biased. And then Sam's already was always sort of unapologetically like, I'm just trying to get as high as I can. I want to get the most high. And I believed him every minute that I spent with that man.

2:33:10Ryan Dank AfI believe that that was his mission. It was always about the most high. The most high. There was no doubt that that was the highest of the high.

2:33:19SpeakerYou guys, Rob said it earlier. Rob said it earlier, and I think this is the big point about, and there is some analytical data about showing that certain profiles do have some effect. But Rob said it earlier about, hey, it's the absence of Afghan. So instead of looking for what it is in haze and narrowly varieties in Malawi and Thai and all these uplifting, energetic, psychedelic varieties, it's really the absence of Afghan that makes them all similar.

2:33:51SpeakerAnd so it's not just terpenylene, like people really use terpenylene. Terpenylene definitely has an effect. And I have done, man, we've done some interesting experiments with terpenylene. In terms of adding it to other things to see what it does and terpenylene out of all the terps is probably the one that really does do something on itself. You know what I mean? You can just add terpenylene into your distillate vape pen and it changes the profile significantly.

2:34:19SpeakerBut The real thing is the absence of Afghan. So then that points to what is it in Afghan? And we thought we look at Afghan as myrcene, but now we're looking at Afghan as all the other stuff, all the thiols and all the other. All the unperceivables. Exactly. Because those that to me that back to my childhood experience is like when that Afghan thing happened, all the weed changed.

2:34:43SpeakerAnd we were smoking Mexican, Colombian, Thai, African, Jamaican, Colombian, Panamanian, all these different types of weed that had a similar thread. And they were different. Some of them were racier, some of them were psychedelic, but similar.

2:35:00Ryan Dank AfIt's a different genetic clade. It's like a different branch of the cannabis tree. And, you know, when we started doing this terpene thing that I laid out a few weeks ago, Thank you for joining us.

2:35:21Ryan Dank AfOf all the other, the other traits, it's all what we call Indica. Like even Indica means the plants from India, not the plants from Afghanistan. Right. So it's like, to me, that whole classification system. That's true.

2:35:33SpeakerBecause wheat grows in Turkey too, and in Pakistan and in Lebanon. So, you know, not just in Afghanistan.

2:35:41Archive SeedsThat's kind of always been my perspective is that it's place of origin is what's important with cannabis for me. The classification, sativa, indica, whatever else. And maybe that's just my perspective. But like I said, maybe I'm the outlier in the world that doesn't have the same experiences as everybody else. All these cannabis varieties. I've grown and still have lots of pure sativa varieties. I have the same experience as you do.

2:36:09Ryan Dank AfRegion of origin is an indicator of chemistry, right? That's really what it is. But it's not region of origin, it's the chemistry of the plant, right?

2:36:20Archive SeedsOf course, I'm just saying that's the best source of some sort of familiar genetics that may is like, did they come from the same area originally? Okay, maybe they're related. But other than that, it's hard to...

2:36:33SpeakerBut it transmutates to its environment. It transmutates to its environment, right?

2:36:40Ryan Dank AfBecause that's what it does. Look at this plant that Caleb was bringing up or this paper that Caleb brought up a couple of weeks ago, the high CBC plant or the high CBC samples, right? It's like those places are all from India, but they had very different chemistries. Right. So, right. It's like, that's what I mean.

2:36:59Archive SeedsI mean, like now, I mean, down to the village or the person that came from, that's kind of my point is like the ethno, uh, Thank you for watching.

2:37:27Archive SeedsI understand that. I'm just talking about where you're from. That's the only information you even have.

2:37:33Collin PalmerThat's all I'm saying. Yeah, it's true. But I can tell you from like a just, you know, there's certain lines that I know my bioassay responds to that like are... You know, certain outcrosses of certain original lines that are just I connect to. And then there's certain things that like just put me down. And I think to your point, Fletch, I think there is a chemical key or set of keys, right, if you will, that are doing that.

2:38:01Collin PalmerAnd I think there is some sort of chemistry behind that. I don't believe there is. And I just think I don't think we understand it yet. You know, like to your point.

2:38:11SpeakerYes.

2:38:11Collin PalmerIt's, it's cause like I, you know, like I, I was thinking as you were saying, I was like, man, I hit Band-Aid Haze, Rosin I made one time and I was like, I'm never making this again. This, it put, it like literally put me to sleep. I was like, ow, like none, it was the no uplifting effects. No, it was just like, I'm done. Good night. See you later, guys.

2:38:32Collin PalmerSo, you know, to your point, I think that everyone...

2:38:35SpeakerThe good alternative for sleeping pills. It's different.

2:38:37Collin PalmerYou know, like, I think we all have these different responses with our receptors, you know. But yeah, it's really, I think there's just so much to learn. And you guys, you said something to me that's so difficult.

2:38:50SpeakerBecause you guys are both smoking rosin. So that's the thing is when you're trying to see the subtle nuances between different cultivars in concentrated form, man, it's really hard. I just made it.

2:39:10Collin PalmerI made this batch of bandaid haze because a friend of mine had it and he was like, yeah, we got to make this. He's like, you got to do your thing with this. And I'm like, yes, we do. And then I remember I just like I was like, take the whole thing. I don't want this. This is all yours.

2:39:23Collin PalmerI think I still have some in the freezer. But honestly, it's funny.

2:39:28Archive SeedsYeah, I mean, that's been my experience is just after so many years of growing so many different plants and having so many different experiences with them or lack thereof of difference. I just, I can't say that I could discernibly tell you this one is or isn't a certain type of high based on its whatever, whatever I can perceive. And then the other thing is like, If those effects are discernible based on the chemical composition of those specific plants, it should be identifiable in double-blind testing, right?

2:40:04Archive SeedsAnd if it's not, then it's basically a figment of our imagination, right?

2:40:09Ryan Dank AfWell, who's done that testing?

2:40:11Archive SeedsThat's my point. No one's done it yet.

2:40:14Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, that's what I was showing the other day when we had when I was talking about those type one, type two and three varieties. It's like when you see people that are trying to do these double blind tests, they're comparing like a one to one myrcene dominant plant to a type one terpidylene dominant plant. Right. And it's like you've got it's not just there. They think it's the cannabinoids, but you've got this huge confounding variable of all the other volatiles.

2:40:38Ryan Dank AfExactly. So it's like, unless you have the plans to do the chemical, to do the clinical trials, it's kind of pointless, right? Which is one of the reasons that we made all those different flavor class plants.

2:40:49SpeakerCan I ask you, Colin, how did you make this Band-Aid 7 rosin? Was it from fresh flowers or frozen flowers?

2:40:58Collin PalmerFresh frozen. Yeah, fresh frozen material. It was grown actually inside. It was indoor material. It was really clean. It was beautiful. Actually, you got really good yield.

2:41:10BubblemanDid you make hash from it?

2:41:12Collin PalmerYeah, we made hash first. So we made water hash first. Sorry. Thanks for correcting me. Make sure I give you the journey. So we harvested, froze it, and then I washed it in our cold room.

2:41:25SpeakerThen you add a soluble with water. So you take a little bit of the turps out, right? Not?

2:41:31Collin PalmerYou know, I, you know, there's a lot of debate over that. I think that if you're rupturing heads, I think that can happen. You know, I don't know. How does everyone feel about like all this water stealing turps? I know we've talked about it before.

2:41:46SpeakerI think it's minimal.

2:41:48Collin PalmerIf your freeze dryer does more damage than your wash vessel, honestly, if you do that wrong, you can get your militar zone wrong. I see that often where people are in like 500 MTs and you're like, your peaks are way too crazy for that to be meaningful to preserve the actual volatile.

2:42:07Ryan Dank AfThere's volatiles in the rest of the plant material anyway, not just the resin glands. So it's like a lot of the volatiles in the water don't come. A resin gland isn't a wiffle ball, right? It's not, it doesn't have a bunch of holes in it. The water flows through the resin gland.

2:42:22Collin PalmerYeah.

2:42:22Ryan Dank AfIf you're doing it right and the temperature's cold, you know, sure, there's some loss, but I don't think it's that significant. I don't think it's significant enough. Look to know, look to know. The trichome loses more volume during air drying, right? Mm-hmm. So. Okay.

2:42:39Collin PalmerAir drying and freeze drying is where I see the most loss. That's my, from trying to test most of it, it's really difficult to test wet material, to be honest.

2:42:50BubblemanShout out to Mojave, who also has a dry sift sativa ball.

2:42:56SpeakerBoom. Absolutely.

2:42:59BubblemanLet's melt them, Marcus. Let's see. Mine's not that melty. I made this for the Quebec market. Oh, perfect.

2:43:07SpeakerThis is now, mine is pretty, oh, there you go. It's got a little bit. It's a little bit of a melt, not much. A little bit of the same. Here's some 15-year-old, but it's unpressed. This is where I like it though. I like three stars.

2:43:19Collin PalmerTraditional hash is really coming back. A lot of people are demanding it.

2:43:23SpeakerThis is all traditional also.

2:43:26Collin PalmerIt's kind of nice to see.

2:43:27SpeakerI like the three star, honestly. I like it. I used to make really, as far as I could take it and then just put it back on top of weed and smoke it. That's my favorite way to put a green screen and then put the hash on top. The weird thing is I'm putting the same weed that I just pulled all the resin off And then putting it back on top of the weed, I was like, it's kind of weird.

2:43:49SpeakerIt's like an exercise and like, can I do it? And then like, just put it back. So I'm like, well, three stars kind of like that compromise where it's still got enough of that plant material in there. You can, you know, and then you get way more yields and, you know, and I'm making it for myself anyway.

2:44:07BubblemanYeah. No, there's something to be said for it. It's kind of more like a warm hug than a rocket ship to the moon. Yeah.

2:44:14Ryan Dank AfI don't want to smoke impurities. I'm both exactly on the same time.

2:44:20Etienne FontanIt tastes like mom's home cooking. You know what I'm saying?

2:44:24BubblemanBut you're smoking paper right now.

2:44:28Archive SeedsYeah, but it's different when it's, you know what the contaminant is in the hash, you know?

2:44:34BubblemanBut if you make the hash, you can know what the contaminant is.

2:44:38Archive SeedsLike by volume, this is maybe 50% vapor, but three-star hash is 50% contaminant, you know?

2:44:46SpeakerRight, but the point I was making is I was taking, I was trying to, shooting for five or six star and then just putting it back on the same weed. I just took it off.

2:44:54Archive SeedsYeah, I like that.

2:44:57SpeakerIt was basically putting it back on the contaminant.

2:45:01BubblemanCheck it out. Check it out. The contaminant, which is 50% on the hash, 50% contaminant, would probably be 75% contaminant on the flower, plus the paper and the glue.

2:45:15Archive SeedsOh, I agree. The math doesn't matter. We like the flowers. Smoke the leftovers from a rosin bag and tell me you like it. Like, I don't know anybody.

2:45:25BubblemanDude, that's my stash, bro. That's my whole stash is rosin bag.

2:45:29Archive SeedsPress some rosin, get the good shit out that you actually like, and now smoke what's inside the bag. Find me someone doing that, and then I'll believe you.

2:45:36BubblemanWell, I do. I mean, that shit is in the full melt, and I don't mind it when it's there.

2:45:42Archive SeedsIt's not that you don't mind it. It's just the preference would be that it's not ideally right now. Certain varieties.

2:45:48BubblemanI can't say that because when I get it out with rosin, you know, when I get it out with rosin, I don't care about production amounts just for my head. But when I pull it out with rosin, I turn rosin into a dessert. Whereas when I smoke it in the bubble, the bubble is like a five course meal. And so there's something else getting filtered out that is of value.

2:46:08Archive SeedsBubbles won't make five or six stars. So you're just stuck with what you offer.

2:46:13BubblemanYou can't refine it. That's why the whole rosin market exists. It's where mediocre bubble goes to die.

2:46:20Archive SeedsOr really nice bubble goes to heaven. But one of the two.

2:46:24Collin PalmerIt's more often the first. Agreed. Well, not. Yeah, you're right, Marcus. But yeah, it's tough because the market, I wish we could sell all of our cash, you know?

2:46:33Ryan Dank AfNo, but it's what I agree with what Fletch is saying. I mean, there's there's practices that are done for the market. And then like the Hayes kind of philosophy, there's the practices that are obscene that you take on for the head. Right. That would be seen as like cultural or not cultural, but commercial suicide. I remember Cam came over to your place once, Marcus, with that limonene and pinene really hazy equatorial plant, and we pressed up a brunch into very little rosin.

2:47:02Ryan Dank AfBut it was delicious, right? Like, it was commercial suicide, but it was some of the nicest hits that we've had. And I think, you know, if we were all together in a room and we had the finest in a jar... I know that Marcus would be going for the top five star or six star, right? That's probably exactly given you had the choice.

2:47:25BubblemanI mean, it's the majority of what I want to smoke for sure. But I do understand entering the hash market, I understand the value of the other products, like hitting a 30 or a 35 percenter or a 40. There's a whole variety of different times and places where one can be more enjoyable than the other. But when you're an anomaly like myself, and you're just climbing this, like, I'm just going to be chain smoking the world's greatest dabs of every possible option, living soil, whatever, then you become a little bit... Snobbery.

2:48:04BubblemanYeah, you just, you know, you're living in a bubble, pun intended.

2:48:08SpeakerThere's a combustible...

2:48:12SpeakerIt's how combustible, to me, there's a lot to do with like how much, how, and for everything, even for flour, like different types of flour that combust differently, it's a different effect. And how much air, I mean, I remember I used to sell, you know, I used to manage some head shops and you guys remember this, like when down stems were coming around, how much the width of that down stem, the diameter of that down stem hole shaped so much of the initial effect of snapping a bong hit.

2:48:40SpeakerRight. And different flower. That's one thing of beauty about haze and these more lax fluorescence type plants is that the way they combust is so smooth and it's like and to me, hash the same. The chemistry doesn't change as much. As you go to the refining, but the thing that profoundly changes in the bowl is how it combusts and how it combusts has a lot to do with that first onset effect.

2:49:10SpeakerHow well you, like, you know, when you don't do a good job sinking a dab or anything, you're in for a nasty ride. And it's not that you didn't, It's not that it's different. The chemistry didn't change. It's how you took it into your body that changes.

2:49:25Ryan Dank AfI agree.

2:49:26SpeakerI think that has a lot to do with the different grades of masculinity and the different types of flour.

2:49:33Bubbleman100% it does because it controls the experience.

2:49:36SpeakerNot to interrupt, but we got to jump off.

2:49:39BubblemanWell, thanks for coming on, guys, and talking hazes with us. Good luck with that pound, man. Let me know where I can send someone to go buy some for me because I want to have I want to have some of that sitting for me and Callie when I go down there.

2:49:54SpeakerDave, my jar is getting empty.

2:49:59Collin PalmerI got to roll too, guys. I got to peace out. Much love, everybody.

2:50:05BubblemanAll right, you guys have a good rest of your day.

2:50:08Collin PalmerYou guys should have been there.

2:50:12BubblemanDude, I feel like running a marathon right now after smoking these haze joints and haze dabs. It's just like... It is definitely different. I think that it would be wonderful if the world could experience it. And, you know, especially in the commercial market.

2:50:30SpeakerAvailability.

2:50:32BubblemanHow do you make such a thing available? How do you make it economically viable?

2:50:37SpeakerI think it's more economically viable than commercial strength.

2:50:41BubblemanIt's easy, Marcus. It's very easy. Yeah, well, you figured it out with the lights. I think that's a big deal, dude, what you said about the lights. That's a big deal.

2:50:51SpeakerI think that the prerogative is keep it simple, stupid, and try not to do anything at all. Let the plans work. Let the plan provide the conditions for the plans, but... And some might do their magic like this, but stop touching the plants. You know, you can, you can look at them, you can speak nice words to them, but leave, leave them alone, you know, leave them be and they'll turn out perfect.

2:51:19SpeakerSo, yeah, I mean, labor is a big thing. Energy is another thing, but depending on where you are in the world, you know, it's an issue or it's not an issue. But I mean, every licensed producer can, you know, differentiate themselves in the market by offering something that, you know, the competition is not even remotely thinking of or capable of growing. So I think, yeah, that, that, that dare to go there.

2:51:53SpeakerI think they'll be in for a good time. Maybe not immediately, but as soon as word gets out, you know,

2:52:02BubblemanDo you think the best way to kind of promote this concept so people can get a decent yield is to kind of grow it on this lattice with side, under canopy lights turned sideways basically?

2:52:14SpeakerYou know, Argus, if you want to do that at scale, it becomes an engineering question. Right? So I'm not an engineer. So let them figure that out, how we can implement that at scale. But I think it is very, very doable. And people should try to make the jump. And if they're too scared of making that jump immediately, that's why we exist. They can drop by at our events.

2:52:46SpeakerThey can come and see for themselves. I mean, if seeing is believing, then experiencing what you mean, that's that can be life changing. You know, it's the same thing with the no veg method. So I had guys over here that came all the way from California and I would show them those clone to flower and no veg. And, you know, I jokingly would ask them how long that they veg their plants was anywhere from two to six weeks.

2:53:13SpeakerJesus. Like, OK. so i i showed them the plants in the room and i asked them how long do you think they had veg uh maybe 10 days maybe 14 days i said zero days and some of them i i kid you not they had tears in their eyes not because everything is so beautiful over here because they realized how much labor and money they were throwing away needlessly right because As people veg their plants, they go into flower, then they take away all the leaves again.

2:53:49SpeakerYou just fed the plants all this energy and labor and time into growing those leaves. And the first thing that you do when the plants enter flowers, take everything away again. I mean, that's not logical, you know? But it's by people experiencing this, so both with an end product, like the product from Dave and Tony at Baudrillero, and seeing some of these plants at our facility here, I think that It's kind of where it has to start and us talking about it, you know?

2:54:25BubblemanWell, I just can't stop thinking about it since you showed those images. And I just, I mean, it would just engineering wise, you're just taking the grow and turning it sideways with like rows of lighting that goes in with rows of plants that go in that grow up the lattice.

2:54:39Archive SeedsIt's, you know, I mean, I've grown haze in those omega gardens 20 years ago. Oh my God.

2:54:44SpeakerThat's it, man. But did you hear his yields?

2:54:49Archive SeedsNo, but it can yield really well. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Omega guards were highly productive. It was like two and a half pounds from 20 square feet back then with 1,200 watts. There we go.

2:55:00BubblemanHow many watts were you using, Don?

2:55:02SpeakerI was doing 200 watts. And getting? And getting four kilos a year per square meter. So I'd have to do some math real quick.

2:55:22BubblemanIf you don't have to veg and the whole plant can just be blooming because it's a narrow leaf and it's going to grow anyway, that's it. That's six weeks. However many days they're vegging for, that's your savings. But obviously the time that you go over these short flowering periods into long flowering periods, Is where it becomes less economically viable. I just love the idea of finding economic viability for these.

2:55:49SpeakerYou know, Marcus, it's like if you look at what the plant does in nature, that's my reflex. That's my baseline. I look at what does cannabis as a plant species do in nature, right? So they grow... Thank you so much for joining us.

2:56:26SpeakerSo we have a huge volume. Does it make any sense of growing really small plants and having shitty microclimates, pumping in a ton of energy to redeem those microclimates? You know, all these fast flowering cycles. I mean, yes, we can go to eight cycles a year with genetics that we have that are just six weekers. That's great. But it means... Eight times making clones, eight times harvesting, eight times cleaning.

2:56:57SpeakerAnd yes, it has its advantages that it poses a lower risk for pests and disease to develop in that shorter time on your crop. So it has its advantages. But if you're growing in a greenhouse, look at what they do here in the Netherlands with tomatoes and cucumbers. They grow them sky high. As high as they can get. So they bind them on the trellis, guide them all the way to the top and then have them flower and bring these bring in these tomatoes by the bunch and making use of the cubics instead of this the square footage or the square meter.

2:57:31SpeakerRight. So there are certain varieties in cannabis that can be grown like high wire vegetables. I'm sure of that. So why aren't we doing this?

2:57:43BubblemanAnd the greenhouses that these companies have bought are greenhouses that were being used for that. They were literally designed for exactly what you're talking about.

2:57:53Ryan Dank AfThose tomatoes, though, are multi-harvest, right? They're indeterminate. Yeah. So that's something we need to breed into the plant. And hay has the potential for that. Yeah, but yeah, it's not just so easy. I still think one of the ways, I think one of the ways is going to be flowering plants that you can root under 12-12 and they get very little veg queue. And then they're equatorial and they have enough stretch that they can put still put on a frame is going to be what ends up being wet.

2:58:23SpeakerWe'll have those results in for you, Ryan, by the acceleration day in June. So make sure you come.

2:58:30Ryan Dank AfAnd a lot of facilities.

2:58:32SpeakerWe're putting you on stage, man, because we've got a theme for that acceleration day for genetics. So we'd love to have you and like Usama Badat come out and talk, man. And you guys should just focus, like a lot of facilities are switching over to vegging in place. As they call it, right? Because everyone's been looking at those numbers going, what has this veg room been doing for us?

2:58:56SpeakerWhat is this facility? And they're like, man, this veg room is a complete waste. It should be a flower room. Therefore, let's veg in place. Well, then what's the next question? What's the shortest amount of time we can veg in place? It's like zero, buddy. You're growing the wrong kind of weed for that type of So now turn your whole facility into one big giant fucking flower room.

2:59:20SpeakerAnd clones take up nothing, man. Racks of clones, boom, you're done. In Amsterdam, I used to grow sea of green because I was growing sage in a fucking shed that had a six foot ceiling, right? So it was like, I didn't even have time to let the plants germinate. I was like, man, you guys better not grow. Don't grow. Don't grow. You know what I mean? So, but, but that was the beauty.

2:59:47SpeakerIt was just like, put them in the ground. It's done, you know? And I mean, it, it, it, uh, like Jorge Cervantes is, uh, is doing a piece on, on the no-veg technique from clones, uh, pretty soon. Um, and. The way we came about this, because I've done Sea of Green as well back in the day, you know, before I started in EXO, but doing a lot of plants per square meter, you know, you can do that, but what's the point?

3:00:21SpeakerSo we came up with a way to kind of gauge the planting density of the different varieties that we work with in this NoVeg system. Right. And depending on the variety, your optimal is going to be between six and like 14 per square meter. And with the haze plants and the equatorial ones, you can have one plant per square meter, you know, and easily fill up that garden.

3:00:53SpeakerAnd then it's about, you know, how to smartly go about it.

3:00:58Ryan Dank AfCan I ask what your mothers are on 24 or 18 hours?

3:01:02Speaker18, 18.

3:01:04Ryan Dank AfAnd you root under 24 or 18?

3:01:06SpeakerNo, we root under 18 as well.

3:01:09Ryan Dank AfOkay. So the plant material is technically getting 18 hours of veg right up until. And that's kind of my point is that there's like for every given plant. There's obviously a genetic switch for how long it takes for it to flower, right? So how much veg time it gets really influences that characteristic. So, but like with Saw or Sea of Green, we selected specific plants for a type of system.

3:01:40Ryan Dank AfAnd that's one of the beautiful things about cannabis is you saw that morphology or that variation in architecture, right? And that makes a big difference.

3:01:51SpeakerAnd that's it. So when you phenohunt for plants, Selecting certain varieties to be produced at your facility when you phenohunt. I mean, it should be more about plant architecture than taste or effect per se, because the plant architecture is going to allow you to succeed as a cultivator And lower your risk profile and make sure that you're more efficient. And as you have these Different facilities, different cultivation system.

3:02:33SpeakerThere is no standard for cannabis. So everybody kind of has to customize the plant for themselves. But I think that a lot of cultivators nowadays are trying to put like a square in a hole. You know, it doesn't make any sense just because something has a name to it or it is a little bit more gassy or a little bit more sour than this or that one.

3:02:58SpeakerThat's missing the ball a little bit as a grower, as a producer. So plant architecture is... And I see this when I get genetics from or seeds from the US. The genetics are completely different. And it looks like they have... Kind of selected a way for plant architecture and more towards trichome density and THC production and all that kind of stuff. So I think you can blame OG for that.

3:03:32SpeakerWhat? You can blame OG for that. I mean, and that was an example of like, and this was before the big mass commercial international market of today is a couple of guys. In their closet, looking at that weed going, well, that thing grows kind of fucked up and then smoking it and going, holy shit, this is something new. And then because it was just it wasn't plant breeding and it wasn't agriculture or horticulture, that amazing chemistry of the plant Thank you for joining us.

3:04:26SpeakerNo, no, but skunk grows, skunk architecture is much more, OG is a funky plant that grows really floppy and weird. And that, like the reason that we, so many plants have that lodging branch thing where they flop over like that was because OG got introduced in a way that brought these floppy doppy branches that most plants didn't have that before OG. And plants used to hold their strength.

3:04:52SpeakerNow that the hay stuff does that, but it goes all the way up first. It makes that primary apical dominance is still somewhat there. OG has it, but it's just a beast. You know what I mean? You know, when we started in EXO, the first seeds that I popped from the fridge to make a selection was a pre-1990s skunk that David got me the first time that we met at a cup in Amsterdam.

3:05:24SpeakerAnd I crossed it a couple of years ago with a South African land race. And those genetics, I don't need a trellis for those. They keep up right. What's more labor intensive? Doing nothing or getting everything wrinkled up in the trellis? Come on. And now I'm seeing like three or four layers of trellis. What are we doing? What are we doing? As an industry, what are we doing?

3:05:54Ryan Dank AfWell, nobody's taking the time to harvest those traits that are responsible for the flower and moving it into a plant with better architecture. Again, it's not hard, right? Like architecture really is a relatively simple set of Mendelian traits that you can just move into any chemical background. But We, you know, it's, it's all shablato and stumble on the right plant. And once you got it, it's the one and you can't, you couldn't possibly change the one, right?

3:06:22Ryan Dank AfBecause it's the one. So that's the problem when we look at these plants is like, I don't know, these like mythical creatures that are the ultimate. And we don't really look at them as an assemblage of traits that we can move into different backgrounds or morphologies that we can make plants that work in our systems. That's what breeding is about. Or it should be, right?

3:06:45Archive SeedsIt's catering to the consumer's demands though is what it is. And so you have the consumer's demands, right? Well, here it is. I mean, I've had a dispensary for 10 years. I'm pretty sure I know what people are asking for.

3:06:57SpeakerI know, I know, but do they know what the choices are? Do they? Yeah, they do.

3:07:04Archive SeedsI offer all of these things, including pure sativas, Albert Walkers. I've put super silvers in the store. I put all kinds of stuff in the store. I mean, like just what I found the most success with, for the consumer and also for the grower is to breed these older varieties once or twice into more modern things and you you can still get like no veg like this plant right here no veg and it's like goes three and a half feet and um yields quarter pound plants right i mean it's it does great And it's a Hawaiian sativa crossed to a modern variety and then crossed to a modern variety again.

3:07:41Archive SeedsAnd it basically retains most of the characteristics that make the original variety unique. The Hawaiian sativa doesn't smell like sherb or cookies or any of that stuff at all. But it's productive enough that the producer can actually afford to offer it at a price that the consumer is willing to pay. And unfortunately, at least on the West Coast particularly, people just... Don't appreciate that long flowering herb.

3:08:14Archive SeedsYou're not going to get rewarded for growing it. Even if you make it productive in your facility, you still have to cater to the consumer's demands. And that just really is what it is at the end of the day. And I've had the best success catering to those, trying to introduce them to new varieties by breeding with those varieties instead of trying to force them on them.

3:08:37BubblemanSo this is the trick. If you want to fund your haze project into any market, recreational marketplace, this is how you do it. I'm giving you a gold nugget here. I know I'm smiling, but it's the truth. All you have to do is sell Groundweed, distillate, and botanical terpenes in bags, in fucking jars, in pre-rolled joints that are rolled really jankily and badly. You can call them like fucked up joints or bad joints or whatever.

3:09:11BubblemanAnd that will fund any amount of economic loss that you will occur. And I'm not even joking. I wish I was. I really wish I was joking. But you can do that. You can offset that. You can easily offset all the money you want to spend on your greenhouse and everything you want to do with haze plants to bring them to the world. Unfortunately, you can do that with floor.

3:09:35Archive SeedsLet me add one thing to what you're saying exactly, Marcus. And this is the unfortunate truth here in America is the haze profiles are the easily most easily reproduced by botanical terpenes, the like fake shit. So like you're offering a product that's actually most by most consumer standards associated with the cheapest product in the market because Jack smelling fake terp infused whatever is that's You know, it's like making a heady Pepsi, you know, it's like, yeah, but still the flavor is still Pepsi.

3:10:09Archive SeedsHow are you going to get $10 for a can of Pepsi when it still tastes like cola?

3:10:30SpeakerWell, I think I think here's and let me take an ethnobotanical approach, if I can, on what I think you're saying, Fletch, about the market. And this is something that I struggled with for a long time. You know, there's that whole fallacy of assuming that what you like other people like or something. Right. And and I get that. Like, I am I'm an old school sativa head because I was imprinted as a very young child on all these these this this thing.

3:10:56SpeakerAnd when I moved, I love them, too. I love them too.

3:11:00Archive SeedsBut the market doesn't reward me for that. Right.

3:11:02SpeakerBut here's what I think. This is what I think happened is that as the forces of prohibition changed the gene pool, Through hybridization and the influence of Afghan. And remember all Afghan varieties were generally, or that region was a hashish variety. So no one was smoking that profile in flower or rosin or fresh, right? All of that. That was a new thing to the world. So as this new thing to the world happens, which is fresh Afghan chemistry, right?

3:11:33SpeakerThe world also changed in terms of what they want from cannabis. Meaning, hey, what is the biggest problem in the world in like, you know, it's opiate addiction, it's alcohol. People want to disassociate and turn it off. It's a weird, complicated, anxiety ridden space these days. So now the old cannabis and this is the far out thing that I started hearing more and more and more is like some people are just like, oh, terpenylene, narrow leaf.

3:12:04SpeakerI don't touch that. That stuff scares me. It makes me feel edgy and anxious. So like the innocence of mankind and the way they would interface with that type of a thing is maybe lost for now. And you can't just reintroduce it and say, hey, everybody, we should all be uplifted and energized and psychedelic as much as I think we should. The rest of the market is like, no, dude, I want to sit here and play a fucking video game zonked out for six hours straight.

3:12:36SpeakerI'm not thinking about the universe on my fingertip anymore. You know what I mean? I'm done with that. So it's like it's sad. It's sad to think that that happened. And I don't think it would have happened sans prohibition. Because it was an agronomic thing, not a chemistry thing.

3:12:52Ryan Dank AfYeah. Right. Yeah. You know, I followed that deep in it. I think it's, I think it's that the kids grew up knowing Indica and that that's what they recognize as high. Right.

3:13:04SpeakerThat's essentially what I'm saying. But we forced that on them.

3:13:08Ryan Dank AfProhibition forced that on them.

3:13:12Etienne FontanWe navigated those prohibition waters to make that happen.

3:13:15Ryan Dank AfYep.

3:13:16Etienne FontanYep, exactly.

3:13:17Ryan Dank AfWe ended up there.

3:13:18Etienne FontanIt was a collective effort.

3:13:21Ryan Dank AfIt wasn't an idea that we'd get there. You know, we just ended up where we landed, and that's... Yeah, there was no destination, right.

3:13:29SpeakerThere's nothing happening, right? That's why we're here. There's a renaissance happening in the... Well, if American consumers have the choice... The value of these plants, the richness, that's within these plants, you know? Yeah, you know, it's like, maybe as an industry, I think the market is very immature, and we lost kind of the balance of the different effects. So if we can bring back that balance, and introduce that diversity, Yes, but I don't think this will ever be commercial such as cookies.

3:14:05SpeakerIt doesn't necessarily is because these people all day, they want to come home and smoke a joint. And like you said, they're a lab sleep bomb. If you smoke a firecracker, well, you won't sleep. And the next day you must go work. So, you know, for the people that can do it, that do it, it's a lifestyle. It's about function. And it's like, it's how well these markets, you know, always, but That we build this niche market to be at highest quality possible.

3:14:31SpeakerThat's what it's all about. And that's available. And the people that embrace it for search will always do. You know, it's something. So, but the Americans need to wake up a little bit in their productive set of mind, like Dominique is showing them. And then they will step up the game and say, hey, it's actually a good idea. It's also about fashion, eh? It's also about fashion, eh?

3:14:58SpeakerIt's what I said at the beginning of the talk. At the end of the 90s, beginning of 2000s, nobody wanted purple anymore. Now suddenly everybody wants purple. Yeah, purple, man. I also want purple, okay? I want every color, but so especially the gold. Yeah, and I want to have the choice. Yeah, that's it. Diversity. That's what it's all about.

3:15:20Ryan Dank AfI talk about fashion a lot with flavors. So it's interesting to hear you say that because it is cyclical, right? Like the varieties that we had that go away, they become nostalgic to people and they're like, why don't we have that anymore? I remember when we used to have a weed that was X, Y, Z, right?

3:15:39SpeakerThat's true. And in that view, we have the chance now of improving these cultivation systems for the plants that we have now. But I want to look a little bit along the road when fashion, when the nostalgia kicks in and the renaissance happens, that There are systems in place where we can have some licensed producers branch off and specialize in that kind of a niche and area because that will incentivize breeders as well to Work with those plants again instead of, and this is how we open back up that genetic diversity is my humble opinion.

3:16:22Ryan Dank AfI think of it like bell bottoms. Like when I was very young, bell bottoms were a thing and then they went away and they've come back twice, right, since. I think cannabis is kind of the same way. I think in vitro, like cryopreservation, in vitro cryopreservation, It would be really good for someone to do, you know, to make a cryobank of cannabis varieties of clones and then just things that we can pull back, you know, just tuck them away and they don't take a bunch of plants to grow in your greenhouse, you know.

3:16:56Ryan Dank AfThere we go, Bobby.

3:17:00SpeakerI was just thinking about, I was just thinking like the one thing that I remember the most as a kid because We grew a lot of weed in our community, but we also imported a lot of weed. It's how visually different and chemically different it all was. And a lot of that had to do with how it was dried and how it was pressed and preserved and shipped and stuff like that.

3:17:26SpeakerAbsolutely, yes. It was also made it so fun and exciting. It was like, it was a bunch of different plants. And you know what I mean? And that thing of just like looking and seeing like the diversity in one year, like in one year of importing and growing and sharing weed, you saw so many different kinds of weed. And each time it was like a, I mean, they were all just different.

3:17:53SpeakerAnd like Rob would always say, like modern weed, you wouldn't want to drop it on the floor. You wouldn't know which one's which. Because they all do boom, boom, boom, a bunch of little round nugs with a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And I think that's the big part that the consumer kind of misses out. It's just the full experience of it being very different.

3:18:13SpeakerFinding out, even if it's just 2% of the market that likes this or 8% of the market that likes this, You know, but also back to the thing about haze, I think one of the things is like, you know, people consume so much cannabis nowadays, the receptors are so down-regulated, it's really hard to see the nuance and effect, and it just really turns to one word, which is flavor.

3:18:35SpeakerEverybody just breeds, selects, everything, sells, buys on what flavors do you like? What flavors are you growing? What's your favorite flavor of weed? And it's like we're really turned cannabis into alcohol where you're just high on THC. So the 10 seconds that you're high, the 10 seconds of you sucking it into your mouth are the thing that you're selecting for. And I get that because cannabis now like I get weed from like the weed I love to smoke has very little aroma or flavor.

3:19:09SpeakerAnd the weed people give me is so intense. It's like smacks you in the face with an experience. It's fantastic, you know, and haze will never be that. Malawi will never be that. You know, Thai will never be that. It's a different thing.

3:19:27Archive SeedsLike Malawi gold has one of the most intense afterburnt aromas. Like the incensiness in the air, haze, the same thing. Colombian gold. I mean, they're aromatically very... Thank you so much for joining us.

3:20:10Archive SeedsThere's just a lot of people that, whether it's confirmation bias from other people or their actual experience, have an experience with haze that they do not enjoy. Like most net. I remember a thing like 10 years ago in California, people would be like, bro, I only smoke OG. That turned into, I only smoke cookies. And now it's like, I don't, I smoke gelatos, but I won't smoke haze.

3:20:36Archive SeedsYou know, it's like, I remember even, you remember, uh, uh, jibs and, uh, those guys, you remember they had over haze sweatshirts. I remember. Right. Because that, because that became a popular mantra among this. They gave me one, but I wasn't feeling it. And the thing to keep in mind too, that's the thing that's really difficult about cannabis from a commercial and industrial perspective is that the main consumer base of people that spend money on cannabis is 18 to 28 years old.

3:21:09Archive SeedsRight? So every 10 years, I mean, that's constantly evolving, but every 10 years, you've got a majority of the money that's coming into your business is coming from an entirely new group of consumers, right? So being able to adjust on the fly to the demands of the consumer that changes that quickly, not to mention how flash in the pan a flavor or new cannabis strain is in the first place.

3:21:33Archive SeedsAnd you've got, realiztically, which is why we have the breeding we have these days, is The economic timeline of these varieties is so short that you literally can't invest. It's impossible to do the work we're talking about and maintain a market long enough to justify the expense. Yeah.

3:21:58SpeakerThat's why you gotta just grow for your head. Always just grow for your head, man. At least you have good weed to smoke. Yeah, but... Just to add to that, I mean, I think we're selling hay short as we're looking at it as mostly terpenylene dominance. So, Ryan, from all the seeds that I grew plants out of, there was zero terpenylene in the smell. You know, it probably shows up somewhere in some of the profiles, but it were, you know, very distinct profiles.

3:22:33SpeakerSo whenever I think of Hayes, before I grew those seeds from David, I would always think of Hayes as this, you know, lemon-like, peppery, terpinoline smell. But then I grew those old seeds from David, and none of them had this terpinoline profile. There were much more.

3:22:56Ryan Dank AfI always call the terpenylene plants Dutch haze. Yeah. Yeah. It's what the Dutch refer to as haze. I mean, there's so many. Amnesia haze is a perfect example, right? Amnesia haze is essentially that terpenylene haze with a kick of myrcene. But yeah, it's sweeter. It's a little sweeter than the terpenylene one. Sorry, the terpenylene one.

3:23:20SpeakerSo this is also what the narrow-leaf drug varieties represent. It's much more than terpenylene. I mean, the Malawi will knock you out as well, eh? I mean, sure, there's much more uplifting effects, but, you know, if you smoke the Papua that I have here, or the Malawi, or the Laos for that matter, you're going bye-bye, you know? Yeah, like good old Thai can be, you know, it's like, bam, it's this paranoia, we completely, I love it.

3:23:53SpeakerYeah, but yeah, like we had the Nigerian, which was a super paranoia, right? I know it is in there, Dan. Yeah, so, yeah. That's why it scares people.

3:24:07Ryan Dank AfDo you have terpene and volatiles on all that stuff, Tom?

3:24:12SpeakerYeah, I have. And it's like some of this stuff, you wouldn't even believe that there would be like myrcene in it. But then it comes back as being myrcene dominant. Like the, the, or Papua New Guinea. It has this every, everybody that I have had it smelled, they said, this smells like I've never smelled this weed, this smell on weed before, never in my life. And it's, it's guys that are like, you know, 40 years experience, 50 years experience, never smelled that kind of profile in their life.

3:24:43SpeakerAnd, um, So I think there's this genetic diversity. It's something that needs to be preserved to make new stuff with, you know, introduce new stuff.

3:24:58Ryan Dank AfI think before, see, for me, the most important thing is preserving it before losing it. And by preserving it, I mean crossing the plant to itself because even when you cross a plant to a brother or sister, it might have different chromosomes for mom or dad. Right. And so what you're really doing is creating more of a genetic soup than really preserving and locking down those traits that you've got in that one plant.

3:25:21Ryan Dank AfYes, exactly. You know, selfing is kind of seen as like a bit taboo or it's like, you know, people say it's not how you make a clone of a plant. Sure, it's not.

3:25:31Etienne FontanWhat it does is it captures those damn traits that we don't want to lose.

3:25:36Ryan Dank AfAnd it's like once you lock in those traits and you understand what the inheritance pattern is, then you know how to put it back together. So once you know how to put it back together, then you can move it into different lines.

3:25:49SpeakerYeah, it'll be interesting to see because I've got a plan of, you know, because I kept the clones from the original seeds. We can still sell them and preserve those originals. And then have those seeds run through the scanner and see if we can, you know, find some interesting correlations with some traits. You know, the difference, I think, with preserving the genetics and like a clone, like you said, Ryan, and also preserving the genetics as like in seed form, so you have As much possible males and field males pollinating itself.

3:26:33SpeakerAnd then you have actually the seed base where you can then derive a clone from which and then follow up on your suggestion to encapsulate that specific genetics to not get lost to the future, right?

3:26:45Ryan Dank AfA hundred percent. A hundred percent. The smartest thing is always to do an open pollination to save everything. That's what I mean, yes.

3:26:54SpeakerBecause you preserve the largest genetic possibility with that.

3:26:59Ryan Dank AfBut with the Hades, it's difficult. You select the best female.

3:27:02SpeakerThat's why I envy you guys in America. You can do it. Imagine you can do this shit. I would say, yeah.

3:27:14SpeakerHayes Revival. I know, I know, it's the market and everything, I know. It's this niche market, so it will never be as great scale, but people that can pioneer, now, man, you're sitting on gold, just telling from experience. But anyway, yeah.

3:27:33Ryan Dank AfWell, I think the real gold is, it's like you said, you save everything, but then you self the important plants, right?

3:27:40SpeakerExactly.

3:27:41Ryan Dank AfYou create the really tight inbred lines that can then be used for future breeding or back, even back crossing to the, you know, to the original open pollination or whatever.

3:27:53SpeakerAbsolutely. Yeah. With the haze, the open pollination, if you want to capture a full profile, it's kind of an issue because you have these males that are, they're super early flowering. And then you have these females that, you know, won't flower for the next three months. So like in the natural way, it's kind of difficult. But like artificially that We now have the facilities to do that kind of work.

3:28:23SpeakerIt's still challenging, but it's becoming an ever increasing option that we have as a community.

3:28:31Ryan Dank AfThe other thing David used to do, he used to have a big pollen chamber. So he would create pollen from tons of different plants. And then he'd isolate the pollen and sift it and desiccate it and dry it and freeze it. But then anytime he wanted to make any cross that he had, he'd just go in and pull out a little bit of the pollen. And you could do like a small pollination to make the crosses.

3:28:55Ryan Dank AfSo you weren't unlimited. But he is. I think there still are. I haven't opened the freezer since he passed away, but I believe there's jars of haze pollen in there too. Yeah.

3:29:07SpeakerSo we not only keep the clones, but we keep the pollen as well from the males. So we keep some males alive. Father plants, but like from that really early one, I have different vials of pollen saved in the freezer just for, you know, when that day might come. But fortunately, it's already in a lot of the offspring from those original plants. So interesting. So one thing I wanted to touch on with you guys, albeit very briefly, because I have to head home at some point.

3:29:43SpeakerYeah, me too, actually. What do you guys think about fermenting and fermentation? As you know, making new products because like a lot of the old stuff that we would get at least here in Europe was, you know, fermented, maybe partially, maybe fully. But fermenting cannabis, especially those tropical varieties might bring out new flavor profiles as well that fresh plants can just not capture. So what's true, but it's hard to achieve.

3:30:16Ryan Dank AfYou have to really, I think it's biological, right? So I think they should start probably failing like regulation.

3:30:24SpeakerYeah, because it's, yeah, it's a fungi.

3:30:31SpeakerYeah. So as long, as long, basically, as long as we don't have like very specific regulations on what type of fungi specifically, and it's still more on the total yield and mold count, you're saying that it's unlikely to happen, right?

3:30:46Ryan Dank AfI can see, I can see a lot of countries regulations having problems with it just because it's so against the, like, as long as you've got this medical context under which the system runs, I think that that's really going to be a stretch, right? Because the concern is all about the bio burden of the flower or what they call the bio burden on the flower. And that's like things above a certain threshold have to be irradiated, right?

3:31:16BubblemanWell, it's also why a lot of them reduce active water much lower than it needs to go. They're removing bound water along with unbound water. And that is, they do it in Canada, you know, like when Dave, who's going to come on from Canitrol and talk a little bit about this in the next couple of weeks, and we'll get into this exact conversation about bound and unbound water, and how to go about just the losses that you take from bound water, which is natural weight of the flower, it's not Thank you so much.

3:32:06BubblemanYeah, the irradiation is the next level, which is we're just going to irradiate everything. You know, I think it's in Illinois where they have the number is like a thousand for yeast and mold count, which means everything has to be irradiated because in Michigan, for instance, it's 100,000 and people still fail there. If you can imagine, like a thousand from a hundred thousand is the yeast and mold count in Illinois.

3:32:36BubblemanSo this becomes this. You would think from common sense that likely these companies were lobbying for these numbers because who picks that number? Otherwise, it's so extremely low.

3:32:50SpeakerI won't say the state and I won't say the company, but you're totally right.

3:32:57SpeakerAnd it was so bad that there was only two state licensed labs, right? And as they were introducing the new wave of licensing, it was basically everybody, oh yeah, if you're sending in a COA, make sure it came, make sure you zapped it with the rad source first. Like the labs were selling the units. It was like it was like so corrupt it was like the lab was like like literally like hey you're gonna fail you might as well buy this thing you only get one test in this state if you fail it's a crop loss so therefore let's start it and it was also like uh right at the beginning of it all right so it's like why would you even create a system based off of everyone just failing

3:33:46BubblemanWell, they don't see the other side to the stick. You know, I had the conversation with these dudes from the company you're probably talking about in Spain one year, and I just sort of said to the guy, I said, the problem with your product is that it influences people to just grow shitty weed that gets mildew and not care for it because they can just... They can just irradiate it.

3:34:07BubblemanAnd that's the problem. If it was just, we're going to have reasonable numbers that are absolutely in place to protect the consumer. If it's medical, even next level, let's protect the consumer. Not against doing that, but just, you know, if it's there to save the family farm, like, you know, you're some company, you've been selling weed for three or four years in the market. It's a family run business.

3:34:31BubblemanYou do a big crop. For you, it's not huge, it's still craft, but it's big for you. And somehow you failed this microbial number. Are you willing to like throw that crop away now? Or is now this the time and only time that you'd be willing to irradiate your flower and just announce it to your customers and say, look, we were going to go out of business if we lost this crop.

3:34:54BubblemanThis is what we have. We did irradiate it. We're selling it at a discount. I mean, I would rather transparency myself. I hate the idea of people getting put out of business because they have these numbers in place and they have these things in place that you could be like, no, I don't care, man. I'll never irradiate my weed. I'll just go out of business. It's like, oh shit.

3:35:15BubblemanSo it's a weird kind of, I would love the herb never to be irradiated yet. At the same time, people who are like, I'll never smoke irradiated weed are like drinking irradiated coffee for breakfast. And like there's irradiation is playing a part throughout their lives that they might not realize. So I'm not trying to defend it by any means. I think it's definitely a bummer. And that the fact that it exists, There's a whole group of people who are like, it doesn't matter if we fail for yeast and molds because we're always going to irradiate our entire crop.

3:35:48BubblemanThat's the bummer side of it for me.

3:35:50Archive SeedsThat negatively impacts the rest of the market for the people that are doing it, right? And then now because you can't irradiate, you're just going to grow tons of crappy weed and flood the market with cheap crappy weed that you spend no money to grow because you can't irradiate it. So it's like... I agree with what you're saying there. Ideally, there's some sort of remediation process, but by allowing it, you're basically messing it up for everybody else that is doing it right, you know?

3:36:16Archive SeedsAnd so, you know, make remediation illegal again.

3:36:22SpeakerWell, on the haze note, that is an issue. And I think Don brought that up earlier that, you know, and I know like a commercial grower who's a huge haze fan who wanted to and tried to introduce haze into their facility, multi-acre facility. And it was the big issue was the longer that plant's in there, the more likely it is to have a pest and pathogen issue.

3:36:46SpeakerAnd the funny part was, And it did. And that was the problem. But it wasn't the haze that was attracting the pests. What was going on is they'd cut down the nine, 10 week crop and all the bugs that were on those plants would go looking for new plants. And the only ones that were left in the greenhouse were the later flowering ones. So like in one given year, all the later flowering stuff has more opportunities to get pests from its neighboring plants.

3:37:14SpeakerYou know, so it was, and I get that. So like you, then you're losing 20, 25 to 35% of your entire year is in one cycle. You know, so it's like, it's, that is a big issue and that's just the agronomic stuff. It has nothing to do with the market or preference or anything. So to me, the big trick with getting these profiles to the market still has to do with reducing flower time.

3:37:41SpeakerAnd some architecture stuff to make it just a little bit more viable for the average grower and more viable for as many different types of cultivation strategies as possible. So that no matter where you are, no matter how you grow it, this thing can fit into your market. Because some markets are all like, you know, Florida is an indoor market because of the climate. You know, so the whole market is indoor, like for the most part, or they're converted greenhouses that are running off HVAC sometimes.

3:38:09SpeakerSo it's like you have to tailor. Speaking for the market, I would agree with you. But speaking for like the people that grow it at home to like have it in their stash, I would disagree with you. You know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. Because when you build off the flower time, you will build off the ripening from the resin glands. And it will be not as rich as this longer one.

3:38:29SpeakerBut I agree with you. Most people would go for maybe a 12-weeker, let's say. So the 15-weeker or 20-weeker must also be available for these people. Then I'm talking about home growers. Then I'm talking about the problem also with regulations and legalization. Like, you know, so you can build a corporation and grow 10,000 tons, but you cannot have a decent amount of flowers in your house. You know what I mean?

3:38:54SpeakerSometimes these regulations, still in Holland, it's also a problem. And that has also its particular play on what to be growing, because people don't want to risk a long flowering plant, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But building the long flowering plant to reduce a shorter type in a commercial area, I would go for the 12 weekers. If you bring that to the people that are running facilities in America, they think you're crazy.

3:39:20SpeakerIt's long. And I'm like, it's short. You know what I mean? And exactly, Sammy. So if you would grow a 12 weeker and we find a way to make that a 10 weeker, you know, same genetics. Without breeding, just by tweaking the cultivation method, you know, suddenly your range goes up to basically 14 weeks, you know? Yes, but you grow it directly from seed on the 12th.

3:39:49SpeakerAnd so predominantly people will like, you know, give it veg at least for three weeks, let's say, and then start. And so, so it's like this technique is also important. Yeah, but that's exactly why we say no veg, no problem, right?

3:40:07SpeakerAlso, there's the fact that one day... If you don't increase the flower time, you decrease the fetching time. Right. In countries around the world one day, in equatorial regions, we'll be growing plants for international distribution. So all this conversation about trying to cram it in, crab that square peg into a round hole, one day it'll be back to where it was 100 years ago, which is grown in the most ideal climate for that plant because all the regulatory shit will be stripped away and we'll be seeing all kinds of different plants grown, especially where they grow best.

3:40:44SpeakerYou know, back to the Florida, like Florida would be great growing equatorial varieties if they could send them to Michigan. Absolutely. Michigan would do great growing little small indoor things that they can grow in a facility and sending it to Florida. You know, it's like, it's just, it's, it's kooky.

3:41:01Archive SeedsCan I ask Ryan a question? Um, I'm curious, is there any reason why you could not breed a nine week flowering variety that has all the chemical properties of a 20 week variety?

3:41:16Archive SeedsYou're muted.

3:41:20Ryan Dank AfTheoretically, no. Right. In practice, it's a little bit more complicated because it has to do with like finding recombinant chromosomes that have the right combinations of traits. I mean, it's like Mojave was saying about the chemistry of these Afghan plants. Maybe there's more than just myrcene, right? Like maybe it has to do with other chemicals than even just the terpenes.

3:41:45Ryan Dank AfWhat I mean is the high is different, right? And so that's the type of thing that you'd want to do by only changing the specific genes related to flowering time. And we're starting to understand those genes now too, like at a molecular and genetic level. Like we can actually breed plants using molecular markers for flowering time now.

3:42:11Archive SeedsRight. So theoretically, at least to the, maybe it's not the exact chemical composition to a T, but it could be nearly the same thing, especially to the average regular consumer that wouldn't the more effective method of trying to supply these types of profiles to the consumer just be to take the profile of the longer flowering plant and breed it into a productive plant instead of chasing down a production method for Hayes, Hayes Varieties.

3:42:43SpeakerThe genetic linkages would all wrench in that, right?

3:42:47Ryan Dank AfIt's complicated. It's not a simple process because there's this stuff, there's something called linkage on chromosomes. So traits come in like little gene neighborhoods, right? So it's really easy to select like chunks of neighborhoods, but to go in and mash half of a genetic neighborhood with half of another one, like those, those, they're, they're called recombinants. Okay. So it's where, like where you have a fusing of two of the grandparent chromosomes and they become like a new half and half thing.

3:43:18Ryan Dank AfIn the grandchildren, right? And like the frequency of that happening between the genes that you really want to reassemble is quite low. So although it's possible to do it, it's like a really ambitious target.

3:43:32Archive SeedsI think we've seen good success happen in cannabis though taking these equatorial varieties hybridizing them and ending up with stuff like I think sage is a perfect example like in my room right now I have I have sage TK I have sage OG that I'm pretty sure came from you Mo and then and then I have that cross to triangle kush again right and I have like a handful of those running.

3:43:59Archive SeedsSuper sage terpenylene dominant. Some of the best resin I've ever seen. Buds that are like this long and that big around, but it smells like halitosis with like just the lime, like straight OG halitosis and lime terpenylene. And it's like, you know, the resin on it, it's like impressive resin, like without question.

3:44:26SpeakerI think the resin is the key though. So like there's been a lot of hybrids from Hayes over the years that are great. And they really tick a lot of the boxes, never all of them, but a lot of them. And I think Sage is the perfect example of that. Thank you. But everything I've ever grown ever, I've never got there under 10 weeks.

3:44:48Archive SeedsThese are the nine right now. Yeah, I have some of them that smell just like your sage. Not even double-crossed to OG but they smell just like sage. If you roll them up for me, I don't think I could tell you the difference.

3:45:03SpeakerNo, I agree. I've got some 60-day stuff as well, some 63- and 65-day sages that are great. But I mean in terms of the haze spectrum. The question that I have, and this would be a question, I guess, for, you know, Dominic and for Brian, is that, to me, long flowering varieties, I've always assumed that what makes them magical is the combination of immature, mature, and overripe plants.

3:45:31SpeakerThat because it's indeterminate, it's never just ripe or just immature or just overripe. There's always this combination. So there's the aging component of that gland that that's why I think at a 12 to 14 week range, you can get enough aged glands in there and you still got fresh glands that you get this complexity in the chemistry. But you can't do it in nine because none of those glands were around long enough to get there.

3:46:02Archive SeedsWell, I think you guys should all come up here and I've got jars of all this stuff and you guys can blind test all these theories because I got all, ATN knows what's up. We can do it all day long.

3:46:18SpeakerI might have to take you up on that.

3:46:20Archive SeedsBecause I have samples of pretty much everything we're talking about. The Pures, second generation varieties that are nine weeks that smell just like it, and just like the original, you know, say the real sativa leaning or narrow leaf leaning varieties. And it's like, well... You know, how much of this is is discernible by consumption, I guess, is my real question, because that's what that's what our target really is at the end of the day, the consumer.

3:46:47Archive SeedsRight. So.

3:46:51Ryan Dank AfYeah, you're doing exactly what I said in that talk. You're shuffling a thiol layer on top of the terpene layer.

3:46:58SpeakerYep.

3:46:59Ryan Dank AfRight. So.

3:47:03SpeakerJust shuffling layers. I'm going to let you go. For me, it's plant time. I have to go work. It was a pleasure.

3:47:11BubblemanThanks for coming on, Sammy. See you soon, buddy. Bye-bye. Really appreciate you coming and sharing with us on the Haze episode today. It's been pretty good.

3:47:23SpeakerYeah, my pleasure. It's really nice to get acquainted better with you all. And so great information. So thank you all. So hooray for the haste, would I say. Okay. Good night. Bye bye. I'll say hi to the plants. I will. Bye bye.

3:47:39BubblemanThat's great. I guess. Oh, there's Dom is still here. I thought maybe we left as well, Dom.

3:47:44SpeakerI'm going to jump into the car, but first I'm going to take some veggies home.

3:47:49BubblemanOh, nice. Nice. Yeah, we're wrapping up here in the next five to ten minutes as well. That was an awesome episode. Didn't get to hear from you as much as usual, ATN. Anything to share before we bounce?

3:48:02Etienne FontanI saw an amazing movie last night in San Francisco called Join the Club about Dennis Perrone and the old scene. And Holy shit, was it fucking cool. You know, it's for me, it's a time capsule. So I got to see all kinds of I was also my memory failing because I was back in my 20s back then. And I'm seeing all this now in my 50s.

3:48:29Ryan Dank AfI'm like, oh, what's that person saying? Oh, what's that person say? Oh, shit.

3:48:33Etienne FontanYou know, it was definitely one of those situations. But it captured the spirit of what went down and how, of course, all this came from a struggle because of the AIDS crisis. And this all comes from medicine. So we all love cannabis, but it was fascinating to rewatch And to see some of the history I was unaware of, you know, because, you know, Dennis went to Vietnam at a young age and he got turned on to pot at a young age.

3:49:08Etienne FontanAnd he came back from Vietnam with three fucking pounds and sold that shit. So, you know. There's, you know, there's legends of shit, you know, don't get me wrong. I did score hash while I was in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, but I was not, I did not bring, I wish I could have brought three kilos of fucking prime Lebanese hash from the Bacaw Valley. Yeah, no, not happening.

3:49:33Etienne FontanBut, you know, it's just great to see a reminder of as well as I saw Ed Rosenthal there. I saw Dale Garinger, Nate Landau, Mike Davis. Our veterans were there as well. It was just really fun experience because everybody in there. We had lived through it. There was all kinds of survivors from, you know, AIDS, cancers to everything in there. And it was a raucous group. And the ad libs and fun, especially when Dan Lundgren and the cops showed up.

3:50:04Etienne FontanOh, man, you should could have. It was loud and fun, but it was an amazing experience. And if anybody gets the chance, definitely check out Join the Club, Story of Dennis Perrone. It's it was fucking special. And yeah, it was great to see a whole bunch of old school family there. Jeff Jones and Dale, Sky Jones, who do Oaksterdam University, among others. So it's great to hug and see people I haven't seen literally in decades when we were all breaking the law.

3:50:39Etienne FontanYou know, because I used to provide clones, you know, to, you know, Dennis, you know, weekly by the thousands. So, yeah. To see a lot of the old people in the old clubs and to reminder all that was also...

3:50:54Etienne FontanA nice reminder of where we come from and what we've done, what we've accomplished, what we failed. Don't get me wrong. We've fucked up and failed along the way too. But at the same time, it was a beautiful reminder of how this all started, why it matters, why it continues to matter. And what this conversation has been about today is probably some of the best medicine people have found.

3:51:19Etienne FontanThese long flowering equatorials that... You know, really, I started off on Durban Poison, right? Which is a, you know, back in the 80s, which is a prenatally indominant varietal. You know, I didn't grow it very well. I did not get the greatest expression the first time I grew it. However, I got an understanding for the feel of the flavor that should be there. And it's just been amazing to watch the growth, the contraction, The hate, because there's also been hate on these long equatorials because during all the grow days in the medical, everybody was growing indoors.

3:51:59Etienne FontanThere wasn't a lot of outdoors. All about indoor... You know, GH, you know, 144 or 72 plants in a four by eight area, you know, basically straight from clone into flowering. So you're just growing, you know, small buds and flowers. So we shape the medical cannabis off of something that would not allow these long flowering equatorials, which is a shame because if that Medicine had been available.

3:52:31Etienne FontanI think some of the problems as well as The expectation of the consumer would be different because unfortunately all these prohibition driven growth cycles force the six to eight weekers to the forefront of everything and really pushed aside anything from nine weeks on to fuck off. And we perpetuated that. We pushed it. We tried when I was with Ed, we tried putting out long flowering equatorials. Nobody wanted them.

3:53:02Etienne FontanYou know, people only wanted what they wanted and the consumers in California that were growing for medical kind of drove that except thankfully for the outdoor grower who chose to maintain saving things thanks to the, you know, the Rob Clarks and the, you know, and especially the David Watsons for seeing its value and perpetuating it so that we even know what it is to this day, right?

3:53:30Etienne FontanBecause so many flowers, like what I even have tattooed on my arm, has come and gone. They no longer exist. And to know, to see, and to hear so much of that lineage that's been traced through David through each one of your special journeys alongside him along the way has been a fruitful, Find for the community as a whole because there's few genetics that we can take apart and walk back and have so many players that were involved to understand so much of the layers of this, but also appreciate what it has built, what it's been built on and from.

3:54:15Etienne FontanIt's just been, just itself alone has become its own set of encyclopedias of knowledge, of information, of genetics, of growers and everything else that's ciphered from just that one genetic, right? I mean, look at all, I mean, all of us have all been little Sherlock Holmes to a certain resolve, trying to uncover pieces of the history so that we now have a full picture, right? We now, we all had pieces of puzzles, but now we have almost a full picture of what we're looking at for just one genetic, right?

3:54:47Etienne FontanJust one genetic of the thousands that are out there, right? So it's just... It's been fascinating, this whole conversation, but it's also its encapsulation of the genius that touched us all, as well as how it touched so many people's lives and how it has endured for generations and continues to endure. And now, because of its history and all of your knowledge and forethought, we will have that history and it will live on.

3:55:23Etienne FontanIn a way that not many genetics will.

3:55:27SpeakerOh, there's some epic words again.

3:55:32BubblemanI have a way with words sometimes.

3:55:36BubblemanBeautiful. Yes, that'll take us out, brother. That was perfect. I want to thank Dom from Inexo to, you know, coming in from Holland and spending the full four hours with us right till the end, driving in his car, right till the end, dude. which is awesome uh thank you caleb and mojave and ryan and fletch etienne paulin who was in earlier and the guys from bud gillero thank rob for popping in always a pleasure to have rob jump in especially because he was there we're talking about these old stories rob was there he's kind of the only one at this point in time uh so that was awesome um yeah thank you to the press club Thank you guys for your sponsorship.

3:56:23BubblemanThanks to Puff Co. as always, keeping us laced up and puffing tough on the Puff Co.'s. And thanks to Helio Supply. Thank you, Jared. Shout out to you and your company. And hopefully my brand will end up getting in touch with you. He sent me a cool little product, actually. I only saw these for the first time. Cliff from Low Temp had one of these at...

3:56:48BubblemanIn Colorado. So just a little vape pen, but I guess it's one that hides the 510 cartridge. I guess these things roll off tables and break and shatter. So there's a lot of people who are just like, I don't want people to ask me if I'm hitting THC pens. So they put their little their little carts in here. And it's this whole thing's like a battery. So you just hit it like that.

3:57:08BubblemanSo I thought that was a pretty cool product. That's one of Helio's products. You can go support him over at Helio Supply. And otherwise, shout out to Bubble Bags and Grandmaster LED. And thank you, everyone in the chat room for watching and listening. Bingo Lombardi holding it down hardcore. Robert in Valencia, Spain. Carol LEDs, shout out to you. Shout out to Diana, who was in the chat for most of the episode, sharing little tidbits there.

3:57:36BubblemanWe love you, Diana. Always sending good vibes your way. And to anyone I may have thanked, forgot to thank, my apologies. It was, oh, Sammy. Thanks for Sammy coming out. He literally just left. I almost missed Sammy. So in the meantime, we will gather again next Sunday. But for now, may the full melt bless your bowl sooner than later. That's it. That's a wrap. We're out. Peace out, everybody.

3:58:04SpeakerBye. Thank you, Marcus.

3:58:06BubblemanFletch is puffing us out. He's puffing us out. Thanks for coming, Dom.