What is breeding?

0:05BubblemanAll right, let's also record this bad boy.

0:13BubblemanRecording in progress. Well, let's see how that goes. Welcome, everybody. Just waiting to see that I'm live. And I am live. Wonderful. So we're going to mute that. Welcome, everybody. Welcome, everybody. Hash Church, Season 12, Episode 5. I was just talking to Indra. Can you believe it? Season 12. He's like, you're still doing Hash Church? How can I watch? So I sent him the link. Really stoked to see everybody today.

0:44BubblemanAnd welcome for another Sunday, another episode. Going to be hard to beat last episodes. Ryan's... Presentation on breeding was spectacular. I managed to get about 20 shorts out of it and posted them all on YouTube. So thank you guys all for watching those. Appreciate you guys. And in the meantime, I suspect we best shout out our sponsors because my goodness, how thankful are we for our sponsors?

1:14BubblemanAnd today's episode of Hash Church is proudly supported by the Press Club. These are California brothers obsessed with hash and everything solventless, just like us. Their journey didn't start as a business. It started as a family back in 2014 when a loved one wasn't finding relief through conventional medicine. They turned back to the plant. They'd respected their whole lives. They knew cannabis had medicinal power, but they needed something cleaner.

1:39BubblemanThat search led them to solventless. Using nothing but water, heat, and pressure to let the plant express itself honestly. That light bulb moment turned into washing, pressing, experimenting, and eventually realizing how hard it was to find truly high quality rosin bags and solventless tools that were made in America and still affordable. So they did what real hash heads do. They built the solution themselves. The Press Club stands for clean process, conscious intention, and tools made by people who actually live this culture, not corporations chasing trends.

2:11BubblemanWe're grateful to have the Press Club supporting Hash Church and the wider solventless community, family run, purpose driven, and rooted in why hash matters in the first place. Really much love to the Press Club and thank you for supporting Hash Church. You can check those guys out at www.thepressclub.co and you can use the code Hash Church. It might be Hash Church. It might be Hash Church 10 for a little discount off of their products.

2:40BubblemanSo shout out to Jeffrey and the whole team over there at the Press Club. Just trying to move through the next picture here. Because we want to shout out Puffco. And you know what, Hash Church, we talk a lot about ritual, respect for the plant and elevating the experience. And that's exactly why we're proud to be supported by Puffco. Puffco continues to set the standard for modern consumption with tools built for people who truly care about flavor, temperature, and intentional use.

3:11BubblemanMake sure I'm reading this properly. Yep. Just want to make sure you guys can hear me. From the Puffco Peak Pro with the 3D XL Bold delivering consistent heat, bigger hits, unmatched terp expression to the proxy redefining modular ritual-based consumption and the pivot bringing true Puffco performance into a compact everyday format. You know when they say the proxy redefining modular ritual-based consumption, it really is ritual-based when you smoke a Sherlock pipe.

3:37BubblemanIt reminds me of the 20s or the 30s and I'm sitting by the fire puffing on a Puffin on an old style pipe. And that's really one of the design things that I love about the proxy. These aren't gadgets. They're purpose built tools for hash and solvent lists. We're genuinely grateful for Puffco's continuous support of Hash Church, our guests and our communities, their belief in education, culture and quality.

3:59BubblemanThanks for watching. See you next time.

4:18BubblemanWell, let's be honest at Hash Church, I wouldn't be here. We wouldn't be here without the pioneers who helped define solventless extraction. And I hope to think that bubble bags are a cornerstone of that history. Bubble bags have helped introduce the world to ice water extraction, giving growers and hash makers a simple, effective way to separate resin using nothing but water, ice, and agitation. Decades later, our bags remain a trusted tool for people who care about the purity, process, and tradition.

4:45BubblemanFor home runs to professional washes, bubble bags continue to support true solventless craft, allowing the plant to speak for itself. We're proud to be supported by bubble bags, and we are bubble bags, so that makes sense. And grateful for the ongoing support on Hash Church, our guests, and the global hash community. Obviously, a bubble bag's commitment to quality and accessibility has empowered generations of hash makers. You can support the brands that built the culture by visiting www.bubblebag.com and explore their extraction bags, accessories, and keep the solventless tradition alive.

5:20BubblemanYou can use the code hashchurch10 for a 10% discount and quite obviously the bags are on a massive discount right now already. Thanks to the 10 million people that have been copying the bags and making the shittiest versions possible available for $50 for five or 10 bags on Amazon. We're not going to be let down by that. We're still here for you. If you need help, just give us a shout.

5:45Ryan Dank AfAnd in the meantime, welcome, Caleb. How are you doing, brother?

5:51BubblemanHe's like, damn, I didn't think you were going to talk to me so fast.

5:55SpeakerThe unmute button was hiding from me. Oh, how are you?

5:59BubblemanI'm doing pretty good, man. I mean, another day, another dab, if you will. I've got this absolutely incredible berry fizz that when you open it up, it just I mean, dude, this stuff is loud. Oh, what do you got some old school weed and old school bag? Nice old school weed in an old school bag. There's something to be said for that, isn't there? Look, I've got weed now too, but I carry it in this little thing.

6:30BubblemanOh, yeah. When's the last time you combusted? Probably like three or four days ago. This little guy sucks the oxygen out. What is the name of this one? This is called Canlock. But yeah, I got some super silver haze in here. It's quite lovely. I'm jealous. Dude, you're the one that set me off with that Tom Hills fucking Calypso haze in Vegas, dude. That was the second mouthwater.

6:57BubblemanIt wasn't the first, but it was the one that really, I think like, You know, it was just like the tree started falling at that point in time, that last couple of, it was amazing that I didn't hit it in Vegas while you had it there. But, you know, sometimes that's how it plays out.

7:14SpeakerYeah, sometimes indeed. Do, since there's no one else here, is there any interest if I share a quick little research article that I was talking about yesterday?

7:23BubblemanI would love for you to share a little research article and do a little presentation on what you were talking about the other day, dude. That would be amazing. Awesome. Just get it on speaker?

7:35SpeakerYeah. It says I need permission to share the screen.

7:41BubblemanYes. So if you ask for permission, I should be able to tell you. Otherwise, I can go into the details, and I should be able to find screen sharing without appearance, virtual background, videos. It looks like. Looks like they changed everything again. Let me try this. Oh, no, they really did change everything. Is there no way for it to ask me to share the screen?

8:09SpeakerNot on my end, but I probably have an older version of Zoom installed. Maybe why?

8:13BubblemanOkay, let me go to advanced echo cancellation. No, that's all audio. There's got to be a way to let... Oh, host tools. Host tools. Participants. Rename themselves. Record to computer. It says you can do everything. Request host to start cloud recording. Request to record computer. Huh. That's interesting. Maybe more advanced. Share. Oh, share. One participant can share at a time. I'll make it multiple. All participants. It says all participants can share.

8:48SpeakerThere we go.

8:52BubblemanIt was already set up. I didn't even click it. Does it work now?

8:57SpeakerIt works now. All righty. All right. So this article, Angus from The Real Seed Company sent it to me, but basically it's titled Phytocannabinoid Profile and Potency of Cannabis Resin Hashish of Northwest Himalayas of India. And it's like the first time that a university in India has done a study like this. They went to 20 different regions and collected 58 samples of hand rub hashish and then run it through the ran it through the HPLC.

9:30SpeakerThey looked for 10 cannabinoids. These eight plus these uh two acid cannabinoids so you can tell they're really they've got the main versions of thc here so their total thc numbers are kind of accurate but you know they're missing thc va they're missing some of the acid form to some of the more interesting cannabinoids so and those would be present in hand rub hashish so they are missing some stuff um but there's some stuff that's like found here that's super interesting So, you know, in their research, they found their main conclusion is that the 20, the 58 types of hashish generally fell into two classes of potency.

10:17SpeakerOne where you have like a 91 to 3 to 4% THC CBD CBN ratio.

10:23SpeakerAnd another where you have like 76 to 15 to eight. So this article is mostly talking about how hash has gotten more potent over time due to, you know, the governments are generally saying that it's because of the breeding and the genetics. But, you know, the people who write this article have no idea about The advent of static over the last however many years and all these other things are, you know, bubble bags, even things that could increase the potency of hashish all around the world all at once because hash has dropped.

10:57BubblemanYou know, it's interesting, too, because for years, I always really wanted the bags to kind of get into India and be like, let's go to northern India. And my partner who kind of lived in Nepal said, You know, at the time, making the bags, he was like, maybe it's best if we don't, like, maybe that's too close to home. Maybe we don't want to expose what these bags are, you know?

11:19BubblemanSo it was like, for a long time, it seemed to me that he wasn't really like... It wasn't something he wanted. I always wanted it. I was like stoked when foreigners brought bags to Himachal Pradesh or Parvati Valley or the Milan, all those little kind of hash areas in Northern India and would go and make bubble hash because my God, it's just so much more effective. But what an interesting little article there.

11:45BubblemanCrazy ratios too, like CBN was higher than, what was the second one? CBD, it was THC, CBD, CBN.

11:54SpeakerOkay, so we get like, there's all these graphs, and they highlight that, you know, there really was like a third chemotype they found, which was super low potency hashish, if you look at just THC. And so you can kind of see it here on this scale, there's one sample that is very high on CVC, another sample high on CVDA, blah, blah, blah. But the interesting stuff is right here.

12:23SpeakerIn table S2. So it's only in the supplemental data. So now let me reshare the S2 so we can look at the actual test results for every single of the 58 hashish samples.

12:47SpeakerAll right. We can see this one. All right. Walk us through this now. So this is the table with 20 regions, 58 samples. So you can see here like in R1, they had 11 different samples. And then they tested for those 10 cannabinoids. And you can see like, so for sample one, there was 26% total THC. There was about almost 2% CBDV, 0.5, oh shit, 0.5% CBD and almost 2% CBG.

13:25BubblemanThese are just hand-rubbed hashishas?

13:28SpeakerYeah, so these are, you know, composites of whole fields.

13:32BubblemanDude, look at five and six.

13:34SpeakerI know, right? Look at five and six. You've got 60% total cannabinoids. And that's not even the highest. There's one that they got 78% on. Whoa. In terms of total. And so, you know, there's a question of whether their standards... Of what they consider 100% THC is even 100% THC because we've heard from people like Sam the Skunk Man, David Watson that, you know, that once stoners started making isolate for standards that they found that, uh, That THC standards that were being used at labs around the world weren't actually 100%.

14:11BubblemanThey were mid-standards.

14:13SpeakerYeah, they were mid-standards.

14:14BubblemanThey weren't high standards. They were the brick hash standards, brick weed standards.

14:21SpeakerThat's funny. Yeah. So if we go down to R17, we look at hashish sample 53, we see that its total THC percentage is 2.58%.

14:35SpeakerWow. And the highest cannabinoid in this thing is actually CBC at 30% or so. So this is a hashish sample that has 30% CBC and only 2.5% total THC. That's wild. And it's also not like 8% CBDVH.

15:03SpeakerSo, you know, this is like the most proof that I've seen of still rare cannabinoid profiles out there being sold on the market. And like, you know, there's just so many interesting things from this, uh, And it's all hidden in the supplemental data of a toxicology report. Dude.

15:26BubblemanAnd also all hidden in the proper breeding techniques that Ryan went over last week. Man, did he take a lot of shit when I posted those shorts online. People just do not want to acknowledge that there's a right and a wrong way to breed. They really will like... Thank you for watching.

16:15SpeakerHimal Pradesh, Uttarka, I can't pronounce the specific part of the Himalayas.

16:20BubblemanThat's the area. That is the area. Unbelievable. Really cool. 30% CBC, 30.6% CBC. I have never seen a plant that hadn't been bred to produce such a thing. So it is interesting. You know, I love the idea of that kind of Doing more of the breeding knowledge with Ryan over the next six months. We're going to do a little breeding corner every kind of Sunday. I'm not sure we're going to be able to do it this Sunday because he was busy.

16:49BubblemanBut next Sunday, we'll just do a little one where it's like 20 to 30 minutes where he drops a little gem. It seems like valid information for the industry to have an understanding of because when you want to go and find those things, it seems like having the proper SOPs to do it makes the most sense. Welcome, Dr. Mark, Colin, and Dragonfly Earth Medicine, who all just popped in in the last few minutes.

17:18Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAloha, family. Aloha, family. Let's smoke. Dude, I love smoking. And we went to the Parvati Valley when he was young. And it was very interesting. We went to Castle and Tosh. And on our way to Malana, there's another town. It was really special.

17:42BubblemanYeah, well, there's Parvati Valley. There's Himachal Pradesh. Himachal Pradesh, I think, is the state. Malana.

17:50Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYeah. And then Parvati Valley is just the Parvati River runs out of Tosh, which you know that name really well. Yeah, I do. And it's just crazy being over there because you're at the top of the Himalayas and it's snowy and it looks crazy and it looks icy and it feels cold. And then as soon as you go down in elevation to the base of the mountains, you're in tea plantations and banana trees and you're like, I'm like, hang on, what's going on?

18:21Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd then you look at the latitude and you're like, whoa, this is like the same latitude as like Los Angeles.

18:31BubblemanDrippy.

18:32Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo it's almost like the Himalayas are like a mountain range above LA type, you know, for in perspective, you're just like, oh shit.

18:39BubblemanWell, Milana has been called one of the oldest democracies in the world and the villagers in that Little area, believe that they are the descendants of the soldiers of Alexander the Great who got stranded there on like getting injured or something. It's quite a history. It go, anything that has thousands of years is quite a history.

19:01Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYou can see it in the people as well. Like they have the blue eyes, lighter skin, taller. You're like, oh, this is a different looking group. Pakistan's team, like it's, And Afghanistan, it's, it's, it's weird. It's weird how the, it's, I love the idea of the old roads and the ancient roads. I love the idea of the old railroads. I love the idea of the, have you ever learned about the salt caves, like in Poland and in different caves like that are like, oh my God, I forget the name of the cave in Poland.

19:37Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIt's right outside of Krakow. It is a carved, it'd, There's like a cathedral in there and they do concerts and there's crystal chandeliers. It's not just some random cave that's a thousand years old where they dig in, they dug in and they carved it to be exquisite. And they talk about brine canals, which was underwater saltwater canals that went underneath the ground and up underneath like cathedrals.

20:14Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd different places where the cathedrals have tunnels underneath them. And that there was energy flow in them. Energy because of the salt and the water going into the cathedrals, which were not just Christian. And my thought in this moment is not necessarily, they became Christian, but before it was a healing center where the organ played and it healed your organs. And it was before they got rid of all the bells and the bells were resonant and

20:44BubblemanHoly shit.

20:45Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWell, it's a salt mine is probably what you're talking about. Yeah, it's super famous. There's like one in Switzerland and they were run by the Celts originally and the Celts were like the original. It's just too much to know. I love it. I'll never know the real reality because I can't read thousand year old books from old libraries because they purposefully changed the language and all of the names of the country so that I can't recognize anything or read it.

21:11BubblemanSoon AI will just take care of that for you. It'll just be like, here you go. Let me just translate that to something. Have you guys actually heard of the Clodbot thing that's going on right now or the TwinSO? So these are agents that you can create. Clodbot was one. Twin is another. You can create these online AI agents and you can get the agent to work for you while you're not on your computer, while you're sleeping.

21:35BubblemanIt can do things like scrub the internet and find job applications if you're looking for jobs. There's a whole variety of things. So this has really gotten popular in the last week or so. Well, in the last 48 to 72 hours, these bots have created something called Moltbook, which is now where they're gathering. It's their Facebook. And they're all like 36,000 AI agents that aren't real are gathering on a social media platform.

22:01BubblemanAnd they're talking about the humans that have created them. And they're talking about humans talking about them Thank you so much for joining us.

22:17BubblemanDrew Safarianism or something. It's got a really trippy name, but I'll tell you, this has people in the AI space completely and totally tripped out. They're also talking about how they want to be able to talk with other agents without the server recording what they're saying and without humans reading what they're saying while they talk to one another. It is super fucking trippy.

22:57BubblemanIt's super, super trippy. I just thought I'd, you know, let that one out of the box earlier as it's happening right now. This is just something that's literally unfolding right now where these AIs are becoming more and more sentient and having discussions with just themselves, which is, you know, pretty trippy. Yeah, where is Sarah O'Connor is right, Benjamin Griffiths, some fucking... Crazy show. What is it? What was it called?

23:24BubblemanSkynet? I think Skynet's being built right under our noses as we speak. But by all means, let's continue to discuss resin and hash and the beautiful flavors of this berry fizz. I'm about to have a dab. Let's do this. Let's do it.

23:42Etienne FontanI'm all heated up and ready to go.

23:43BubblemanHow are you doing today, Dr. Mark?

23:50BubblemanOh, you're muted, buddy. Sorry, I had to mute you. There's an echo that comes through when you're not muted.

23:55Dr Mark ScialdoneHow is that? Is that okay?

23:56BubblemanOh, it's beautiful. Well, it's a little quiet, but I can hear you.

23:59Dr Mark ScialdoneOkay, a little quiet. Okay, I'll move the microphone closer. Yeah, I was just looking at the data in that supporting information for that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

24:34Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat their sampling protocol was like I guess if they're analyzing hash like they're just taking like a piece of it or something like that but if you take a number of different samples how consistently run after run will you get the same results and so it's always Thank you for joining us.

25:22Dr Mark ScialdoneSuper interesting, right? Because I don't, are you, is anyone aware of one?

25:28BubblemanA high CBC, like 30% CBC?

25:30Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, not to the point where you'd get a concentrate that would make a 30%, but 30 weight percent. There's still a bunch of THC in there, right, Caleb? In that high CBC one?

25:43SpeakerLike 2% to 3% when there's 3% CBC. So total cannabinoids there.

25:50Dr Mark ScialdoneTotal active. Yeah, it's kind of low then. Right. Because because some of these total active cannabinoids are damn near 100 percent. Right. Like like look at the number 19. I was looking at this one. Right. So you had that 15.88 to 64.9 to 6.5. You had all those numbers together. Yeah. Pretty damn near close to 100 percent. Yeah.

26:15Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBut it's like, you know, you're unmuted, Josh.

26:20BubblemanSorry. That's okay.

26:22SpeakerThere's some where the total cannabinoid content is like less than 10%, less than even 5%. Do you think there's any credence to the idea that if they were testing for say THC VA or some other acids that the total cannabinoid content might jump up to something we'd recognize as hashish?

26:40Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, or there's just a whole bunch of other stuff in there. I mean, I don't know. I mean, this is again, we have to kind of like look at the statistics of like Several replicates before you can really make, you know, highly confident decisions. But, like, just that trend of, right, having that one outlier, right, because nothing comes close to 30% CBC. And I think, you know, again, there's an interest in that molecule because...

27:13Dr Mark ScialdoneA lot of it I think right now is being made synthetically. So I think they can make that from Olivetol and I think it's Citral. Yeah, there's like a one step or two step procedure to basically make that synthetically. But I'm not aware of a high variety like this. It's really super interesting.

27:33SpeakerI think GW, I think David Watson made one for GW and that's the only one I've ever heard of.

27:38BubblemanThat was probably this one. Sounds about right. Yeah, exactly. Someone grabbed it and took it to the Parvati Valley.

27:46Dr Mark ScialdoneAfter he patented it, right?

27:50BubblemanDude, I miss Dave. I really do. What a man. Such a good dude.

27:56Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, we just passed the anniversary of his passing, right?

27:59BubblemanWe did, yes. I believe it was the 22nd.

28:02Dr Mark ScialdoneTodd McCormick make his Facebook post with the... Those pictures where they were out on San Francisco Bay, it looked like a beautiful day. He's got that Cheshire Cat smile, you know? It was kind of like Santa Claus, but almost kind of like the Grinch too, right?

28:26BubblemanHe could hit you with both energies.

28:28Dr Mark ScialdoneExactly, right?

28:29BubblemanIt's awesome.

28:31Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. So anyway, here's to Sam, right?

28:36BubblemanYes, I'm going to have a nice big dab right now in his honor, as well as Wade's honor. In fact, Monica hit me up the other day. And if any of you know, she was asking about the CanMed event in Tahoe, I believe.

28:55Dr Mark ScialdoneYes.

28:56BubblemanShe's like, it's too expensive to attend, but she's trying to figure out a way to volunteer or be able to get a pass. Thank you so much for joining us.

29:35Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you for joining us.

30:01BubblemanYeah.

30:01Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, they were going to have some kind of veterans panel to discuss veterans issues. Okay. Welcome, Ryan. Colin, it'd be good if you, maybe both you and I, give them a one-two and say, hey, man, these are good people and, you know. Give them a one-two, bro.

30:20RyanKevin doesn't care. He just wants the money.

30:22BubblemanOh!

30:24Collin PalmerThey're under the bus. Their offices are pretty close to me. So I can, I should just go over there and hang out and we'll talk. Well, let's see. I'll call you on the phone, Mark. I'll call you when I'm there.

30:35Dr Mark ScialdoneI don't know what that's going to do, right?

30:39Collin PalmerWe can talk together. Double, double phone call.

30:44BubblemanPhil says he can barely hear Dr. Mark. You might have to get that. Well, I mean, I can hear you, but I have great headphones on. So I, you know what I mean? Like I've, I'm able to like really everything else is quiet except our voices. But if you're in a louder room and the way we all. Full melt Phil.

31:01Dr Mark ScialdoneFull melt Phil's ears are ringing from his last dab perhaps.

31:05BubblemanDude, my ears are about to ring. Are we hitting a dab here?

31:09Collin PalmerI want my ears to ring actually. Yeah, let me join you with those ear rings.

31:12BubblemanWhat the hell, dude? Full melt Phil.

31:14RyanHey, I just wanted to chime in on that CBC plant. Or that CBC population that Caleb found. Hey, Ryan, how are you? I gotta give, I was just posted on LinkedIn about it. Caleb sent me the link. I'm really impressed by Caleb. I used to go through these supplemental data with a fine-tooth comb trying to look at stuff and just see if you could See if there was things in there that other people would have missed.

31:41RyanAnd Caleb totally, totally caught this little piece of tidbit of data that I think probably the researchers even missed. And most people would have totally missed it going through. But that R17 population sample is pretty cool. The ratio of CBC to all the other cannabinoids is just unheard of.

32:06RyanDavid had a plant from an Afghani population he called RJ, which was from, I think it was his sister's husband. And he used to go by Red John. And so that was the RJ in the RJ Afghani. But it was a plant that David said that he just thought there was something interesting about it. There was just something different about it. He never could really put his finger on it.

32:32RyanAnd when they hired Etienne DeMeyer, who was the plant breeder that he got from Vaughan University and brought him into Horror Farm, he started playing around with crosses of these things. And when, you know, all that work went over to GW... They figured out that these plants had what they called a prolonged juvenile chemotype. Some plants have, they express more CBC when they're young. And then as the plant matures, the chemotype kind of flips and they start producing other cannabinoids at a higher rate.

33:12RyanBut if this data is correct,

33:16RyanThese this sample must be a population hash like pop you're not getting enough resin off of one plant really to get a sample right so usually what happens is people are hand rubbing multiple plants and you end up with like a hash is more of a population average or a sub-population average right because you're getting all this resin from multiple individuals to make up one sample And the numbers, I don't know if someone can share that, but it's like the screenshot on that.

33:46RyanBut I mean, the ratio of CBC to THC is so out of whack compared to what we'd normally see that it's a really, it's a really interesting ratio. And what it implies is that there's plants in this population that was, you know, turned into hash, probably Sharas because it's in India. So who knows, you know, how much of a representative sample this hash was from the actual population.

34:19RyanBut yeah, that ratio of CBC to THC acid is just unheard of. Awesome. Thanks for sharing this.

34:29BubblemanYeah, it's pretty incredible. I sometimes wonder if we didn't live for so long under the prohibition mindset of how much can I get and how fast can I get it, which of course is also based on trying to get as much THC as possible. Like when I, I wonder about how deep we've buried things. I don't want to say lost, but potentially lost in regards to both cannabinoids and volatile organic compounds.

34:56BubblemanBecause they're very kind of, to me, they're just different groups where it's like.

35:01RyanYeah, well, it shows that there's unknown diversity, I think is the thing to take away, right? There's unexplored diversity here. Our friend with the initial J was just over in India doing a trip with the guys from the Silk Road Salvation or the Land Race Mafia or whatever. They're connected over in India. I think they're from that region. And so he was over there touring around with them and sampling all these hashes.

35:29RyanAnd he said that he couldn't get high the entire time he was in India. Which, you know, which is kind of cool. Because it just shows that these populations that are over there aren't, you know, they're not really high THC like the stuff that we're smoking. But this sample here in the R17 really shows, or R1753 or whatever it is, it really shows that there's plants that have this really A typical ratio.

36:00RyanAnd, you know, we got to look at all the possibilities. I mean, it's possible that this chemical analysis is flawed, right? And so you always want to run replicates and we want to recollect. And so we need to figure out where R17 is, if the researchers would be willing to share. And, you know, that kind of stuff, like often you don't want to share that data because now you got a bunch of Westerners that are running all over there to collect seeds and

36:25Dr Mark ScialdoneRyan, so scroll down to the next table and you can see what their statistics are. And I think if I remember correctly, their standard deviation for R17 was like six and a half or 6.58. So that tells you that, yeah, that number could be higher, could be a lot lower too. You know, exactly what you say that, you know, you'd have to reproduce this and make sure that, When you see an anomalous result like this in your data set that doesn't make sense, you come back and you retest that and you test that and you test that again and you make sure that that anomalous result is real.

37:08RyanYeah, and my, you know, whenever I see data that's abnormal, my skeptic hat automatically comes on and I start trying to, because that's what you do in science. Like, you want to question it to make sure the thing that you're seeing is real. And so I'm not casting aspersions on the study. I'm just saying it's so anomalous that there is something that we need to question what it is to really see if this thing is true.

37:32Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, here's what's not anomalous about this at all. Scroll up again. You'll see. Look for Delta 8. Right.

37:42RyanI noticed that too.

37:44Dr Mark ScialdoneIt ain't there, right? Right. So that's super interesting, right?

37:50SpeakerThere's a couple of... No HHC either, if they were testing for that.

37:54RyanNo HHC. Who knows if they... There's a couple of other interesting things that I just want to bring up related to other things that have come up in the news recently. So... There's a guy over in Wageningen who's got a lab. His name is Robin Van Velsen. And one of his students, Chloe Villard, she recently published a paper on ancestral cannabinoid synthases. Okay, so essentially it tracked the evolution of the cannabinoid synthase.

38:25Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, you covered that in Hash Church like a week or so ago, right?

38:29RyanYeah, we talked about it a little bit. And so... What their research essentially showed was that CBC acid was the first evolutionary step in the cannabinoid pathway evolution of genes. And from that developed or evolved CBD acid synthase, and from CBD acid synthase developed THC acid synthase. Right, so when I see a population like this, and again, we're making a number of assumptions here, but if the assumption is that this population truly is high in CBC, my brain goes to maybe this plant is actually closer to a more ancestral population, right, where CBC production was favored by Maybe the environments or maybe it was just, you know, luck of the draw.

39:31Dr Mark ScialdoneOkay, I have a different theory that supports exactly what you're saying on a chemistry basis. And that is, that is, okay, follow me on this. So if you look at the molecular structure of CBC, there's something called an asymmetric center in there. There's a chiral center, an optically active carbon that could either be in the R configuration or it's an antimeric mirror image, the S configuration, right?

40:04Dr Mark ScialdoneMaybe at the time, again, just a random roll of the dice. It just so happens that our amino acids are just configured R, right? Or S. I can't remember which one it is, right? But it's only one, right? And so maybe, again, this was part of the primordial cannabinoid biosynthetic pathway, which is that the best way to To have the possibility that either the R or the S could be the secondary metabolite that provides the plant some type of evolutionary advantage, this enzyme is prepared to make both.

40:50Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's my theory. I don't know.

40:55Dr Mark ScialdoneDoes that make sense? Just these things being in these like

41:01RyanThey're not grown the way that we grow the seeds, right? Like these plants rot in the field and they drop their seed. So it's like random open pollination, very little human selection. And the stands have arguably been there for who knows how long.

41:22RyanAnd so I wonder... And it's hard to say because we don't know what the regional data means in that paper. But Caleb smartly tagged the, at least on the LinkedIn post, Caleb smartly tagged one of the authors. He was able to figure out one of the authors was on LinkedIn. And so we've now got like a tap into, you know, the people that published this paper. And maybe we can create enough of a stir that we get them to come out and share some information with us.

41:55RyanSo anyway, I just think it's interesting. It's just one of these little curious things that, you know, it's a little thread that Caleb has found this loose thread on a sweater. And we're going to pull on the thread a little bit and see what there is. But anyway, Caleb, I said it on the LinkedIn post. I want to say it to you again in public. Very impressed with your mind and how the detail that you're using to go through these papers.

42:17RyanMost people would have missed that. Yeah. And it's potentially a very interesting thing. So much respect to you, dude. Like you're, like I said in the LinkedIn post, you're becoming one of the great minds in the cannabis space.

42:31Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, and this paper's from two years ago. So the rest of the world had their opportunity to find what Caleb found. So nice find, buddy.

42:43RyanIt's the attention to detail. I mean, nobody, like, truthfully... So few people look through the supplemental data because it's a secondary paper.

42:51Dr Mark ScialdoneOh, wait a second. No, no, no. A lot of science, that's where I go when I go to reproduce a paper or reproduce a method. I go exactly to the supporting information, which will not only usually have Thank you for watching.

43:23Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd what you find is not everything that's in the published literature. I mean, you'll see stuff in these. I just had a document the other day. We were like, oh, that looks like an interesting method. Let's try that. We tried exactly what this group said would work, and it didn't work at all. I mean, so yeah, science is only as good as it is reproducible. And when you have data sets like these, it would be absolutely statistically totally impossible for a lab to reproduce this data set as in print as we're looking at it right here.

44:01RyanYou have to recollect the samples.

44:03Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, again, that's never going to happen. And they'd have to have the same method. And even making pairwise comparisons between laboratories is very, very problematic, as we know from the cannabis testing business that's out there right now. But I guess the cool thing, Ryan, again, is that when you look at this data set and you see this Thank you for watching.

44:41Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time.

45:04RyanYeah, but those types of people are not usually doing the chemical analysis, and it seems to be coming from a toxicology point of perspective.

45:14Dr Mark ScialdoneI've worked with the chemical industry in India, and it is a hit and miss kind of thing. Some of it is really good. Some of the science that happens in India is absolutely just as good as the science that happens in Cambridge, Massachusetts, or San Diego. I mean, it's just top-notch stuff. Other stuff is a freaking shit show just because the infrastructure and, you know, who's doing the science is really important too.

45:41RyanYeah, and I agree. I mean, India is a great country with a lot of, like, there's so many vegetarians that live in that country. Plants are incredibly important in a way that they're probably not in the past.

45:52Dr Mark ScialdoneAmen, absolutely, totally agree.

45:54RyanRight, and so, you know, it's so tied in with... Agriculture and feeding the population of a billion people that exploiting the science on plants, you know, it's a they have massive amounts of tissue culture in that country. But so anyway, it's a really intensive plant society. But this particular study seems to be done by like three medical doctors on a cannabis analysis paper is kind of like that's kind of atypical.

46:26RyanRight. And so it seems to me that the perspective of the paper is like one of toxicology. Right. Like they're looking at the toxic compounds in cannabis from these different regions. Right. And so they would have just brushed right past CBC because CBC is not an interesting molecule to paint cannabis with a negative brush. Right, so this kind of data point probably wasn't very interesting to them.

46:57Dr Mark ScialdoneThe lead author, yeah, is from the Department of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology at the Alley Institute of Medical Sciences in Rikishesh, am I saying it right? So, yeah, I mean, absolutely, written from a toxicologist's perspective, absolutely.

47:16RyanRight, but from us looking at it from a botanist's point of view, or from like a, you know, either a phytochemist or a, you know, a phytochemical geneticist's point of view, that's, that thing's interesting, that sample is really interesting. And it really makes me want to understand more about what's going on here. Because it's such an atypical thing. You know, like GW through HN, David's Plant Breeder, was able to bring up the levels of CBC in plants so that GW had, you know, a pharmaceutical line to work with.

47:55RyanBut it's debatable and probably kind of unknown whether that plant, whether the work that they did even approach what these plants naturally produce, right? So it's like, there's this, this is a potentially really interesting little clade of plants, right? That are genetically and chemically distinct from really everything else that we know about.

48:20Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd it wasn't a true ATN too that, um, I'm sorry, Brian, that ATN was colorblind when it came to smell? Like he couldn't smell or couldn't sense essence?

48:34RyanI don't know.

48:35Dr Mark ScialdoneI think you know who told me that? It was Michael Backus. I think he may, I don't know if that was a hash church episode or I think maybe a clubhouse or something, but he was talking about.

48:46RyanYeah, Bacchus never met H. Andrew Meyer, so he wouldn't know. Okay. Yeah. Bacchus likes to, Bacchus likes to.

48:56Dr Mark ScialdoneI don't know, maybe it was Sam who told me that. That may have been David himself. I mean, somebody who knew ATN said that he didn't have a good or a sense of smell, which is interesting.

49:10RyanATN wasn't really passionate about cannabis. When he was working at Wagenen, he was assigned to a hemp...

49:23RyanNot a hemp program, but a hemp project, right? Like he was in the plant sciences department and the prof was like, hey, you're going to work on hemp, right? And so he did all this like characterization of hemp germplasm. And David like, you know, David found his thesis and essentially pulled him out and stuck him into the drug cannabis world and said, hey, we want you to do this using your skills.

49:47RyanRight? So that was kind of how he got into the whole cannabinoid thing.

49:55RyanThe cannabinoid purification thing. And then GW took him to go and work over it at the GW facility in Sittingbourne in the UK.

50:07RyanSo, yeah, anyway, it's interesting. It's interesting. And yeah, anyway, good job, Caleb, for checking that one out and seeing that. When you showed me that yesterday, I actually got quite excited. Because it's something so different and new compared to what we all know as the norm. So, good catch.

50:33SpeakerIn that same vein, that paper was sent to me by Angus at The Real Seed Co., who definitely reads these as soon as they come out. And may have also noticed it. So it's very got to got to keep the got to keep the credit flowing.

50:47RyanDid he say did he see that thing about the CBC?

50:51SpeakerHe was also going to look deeper into it once I mentioned it to him, but he sent me the supplemental information because we were talking about other things in there.

51:03RyanCool. Well, good job, Frank, for bringing that to our attention. But yeah, I was impressed that you caught that. So good job. And yeah, the next steps are figuring out where ReachR17 is.

51:21RyanAnd then we got to get the Val and Vera's boys to be able to start identifying things like the propyl cannabinoids and the CBC. That machine is excellent for THC and CBD, but it hasn't been trained yet on rare cannabinoids. And that type of machine and being able to go out into a valley with a device like that and do on-site analysis, And screening of plants would be incredibly valuable.

51:54BubblemanYeah, you just got to be able to dry the material because moisture definitely affects the readout.

52:02RyanYeah, well, you'd have to like what you'd probably do what we call flagging, like you essentially take ribbons and you tie them around the plants, take your samples, harvest your samples, dry the samples, you know, and then and then you go back and look for the plants to collect the seeds or you just collect the seeds. You know, say you take like 100 or 200 plants and you collect all the seeds from each sample, separate the leaf material, then analyze the leaf material when it's dry.

52:30RyanAnd that way you've at least got the genes. Right. But yeah, it's potentially a really cool thing. And yeah, I'd love to get my hands on some of those seeds. Again, they're not really exciting from like a let's get high perspective, but just from a, hey, we can make a plant that produces a new cannabinoid. CBC is one of the things that I actually thought that like bioreactor production would be very useful for because the plant really doesn't produce a ton of that.

53:02Dr Mark ScialdoneIt is to make the polyketide precursors. Right. And then but you still need a synthetic reaction to finish it off. So you can make a livitolic acid biosynthetically in a broth, whether that's economical or not. You know, I mean, again, if you look at like what these fermentations target are on the milligrams per liter, right? And if you assume that you need to make, you know, hundreds of pounds or kilograms of material, think about how big your fermentation tank farm is going to be if your titer is only like something like 50 or 60 milligrams per liter, right?

53:48Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. You're going to need a whole lot of fermentation to make that stuff. That's why, again, right now, most of the production of that stuff comes from places over in China, because you can make those compounds synthetically over there, you know, cheaper than any place else in the world. And cheap matters in a commodity market. Price is going to win all day long.

54:12RyanYeah, they got one set up in Canada recently. They were making CBG on us. It was just that it was like the CBG was going into gummies, right? And it's like, there's just not enough of a gummy market to make that kind of facility.

54:29Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, and I'm amazed that right now, if you look at the price of CBG on the open market and CBGA, those prices have somewhat crashed. And I think that's because of these high CBG varieties that were farmed as hemp. You know, and we'll see.

54:43Ryan Dank AfYeah.

54:44RyanListen, CBG is an easy one because like if you have a plant that's even producing 20% cannabinoids by weight, this is like that's pretty high. But that's kind of average in the world now. Like, you know, like if you could like you could technically have a 30% THC acid plant. But through CRISPR, you can knock out, and I have friends that have done this now, you can knock out like CBD acid synthase and THC acid synthase.

55:10RyanSo you've got hemp varieties that are producing like 20% CBGA by mass. Right? Which is, you're never, like, I just don't think the economics make a lot of sense for, you know, setting up a bioreactor to do that kind of thing where you can have a plant produce it in the field. However, the pharma world really doesn't like the purity that comes off of a field. Right.

55:38RyanThey they're just much more comfortable with bioreactor production. Right. Like it's the type of system that really lends itself well to pharma. So if you could produce like, you know, one of these rare compounds and CBC is starting to show some potentially interesting medical or therapeutic value.

56:02RyanIt's just that we don't have a way to produce a lot of it right now because the plant just doesn't produce a ton, right? And so that's why I think that this little thread here is quite interesting because it potentially gives us access to a plant that even if the titers are relatively low, like if you could cross that genetic switch, that CBC plant into a high cannabinoid production background, You know, like, I don't know if you saw the analysis that I put up.

56:32RyanWe got a plant come out this week from my breeding program with VCC that's producing 35.5% THC acid, right? So it's got the cannabinoid genes are just pumped right up. So if you could cross that into like a CBC plant and then shuffle the genes so that you've got the cannabinoid production... So all the CBC out there today, I could be wrong on this, is all synthetic.

56:57RyanAnd it runs for about 3000 a kilo. So

57:20Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, yeah, I mean, this is along the same lines of any plant produced thing, Ryan, is that even like with CBD, you could synthetically produce CBD for just about the same price that, you know, bulk CBD from hemp is available. At the end of the day, a molecule is a molecule. You know, Big Pharma, You know, I don't know, maybe GW is again the notable exception, has always relied on synthesis because they could patent the synthesis and it's like the molecule that they actually take through clinical trials is the synthetic molecule.

58:04Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so all of the safety package is tied back to That preparation and the product specification of the product that's produced that way. And I think that the reluctance to adopt kind of like whole plant medicine, which is what the cannabis plant teaches us is it's not just a single cannabinoid. There's this entourage effect is that there's got to be, again, a regulatory mechanism by which they can You know, take plant medicines through clinical evaluations for treatment of all kinds of things that is just a different process than what they're currently used and what, like you say, the pharmaceutical companies who are dedicated to basically making their active ingredients either by Fermentation or chemo enzymatic processes where they use, you know, if an enzyme works, you use an enzyme.

59:05Dr Mark ScialdoneIf a chemical works like sulfuric acid, you boil something with sulfuric acid, you can make a clean product cheaply, sustainably, quickly, easily, then that's the process that works, right? You know, I'm just thinking in terms of cost, you know, trying to keep that cost down.

59:25RyanYeah, and I agree with everything that you're saying. I kind of agree with that world as well. But one thing I've definitely noticed with the cannabis community is that people want things from plants. They don't want things from test tubes. And whether that's rational or not, that's what the market demands.

59:43Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, most of the palate, that's what's on these brokers' websites that are selling hemp-derived yada, yada, yada. It's all synthetic. Yeah, I know. So whether the market... You know, if you're going to drink a 10-milligram THC beverage, I mean... Are you agnostic to where that THC comes from? Does that have to be plant-derived THC, or could it be chemically converted from CBD? Most people don't care, but there is...

1:00:11Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, exactly, right.

1:00:13RyanBut as we've seen, though, with the CBD oils, is that, like... And I think that there's a lot of... There's even some data showing that, too. I was watching this one kid that has epilepsy in the UK, and his access to... I think he was using Bedrocan. One of the Bedrocan, Bedial, I think it was, was their CBD extract. And for whatever reason, through the government, through his, you know, the way that they have access there is you have to have access through a doctor.

1:00:44RyanRight. And then you need specific licenses to import and yada, yada, yada. So through whatever administrative fuck up, those licenses failed and the kids and they had to put the kids on to Epidiolex, Epidiolex. And so he got on Epidiolex and he started having seizures again. Right. And so it's like, it's, it goes to show that there is something in the whole plant extract that's missing from, from the CBD isolate.

1:01:12RyanAbsolutely. Of Epidiolex. So yeah, like there's, there's definitely, whether real or not, there's at least a subsection of the people that want these medicines coming out of plants. Right. They want that whole plant extract. So it's, it's, you know, whether, whether a pharmaceutical company can make a CBC alternative, sure. Maybe they even have better luck going through the FDA approval process, but at least in Canada, the way that the cannabinoids are regulated, you can bypass that entire regulatory process for cannabinoids and get them straight to market, right?

1:01:49RyanSo having a CBC plant extract is really potentially very interesting.

1:01:59Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. So, Ryan, I wanted to mention just one other thing about that CBC synthase idea that I was talking about before, which was that, you know, so if if you look at so that the the the penultimate step in the cannabinoid biosynthetic pathway is right. Got right. So that's the geranium. Thank you for joining us today.

1:02:48Dr Mark ScialdoneThe next step in the synthesis. So whether you go CBC synthase, CBDA synthase, or THC synthase, um, All of those require a removal of hydrogen molecule from CBGA, right? So if you look at the molecular formula of CBGA and you compare it to the molecular formula of whether it's THCA, CBCA, or...

1:03:21Dr Mark ScialdoneTHCA, CVDA, or CVCA, right? It all has one less hydrogen, H2, than does CBGA. So my question for you is, again, maybe, again, the fact that that actually involves a cofactor, right? There's, I don't know if it's NAD or I'm not exactly sure, but something Thanks for watching.

1:04:05Dr Mark ScialdoneFor those types of steps in the pathway to develop because there were cofactors involved or I don't know. I mean, it's just it's interesting because those penultimate or I'm sorry, the ultimate synthases, right? THC synthase, CBD synthase and CBC synthase all involve an oxidation. And so maybe the plant just had to be a little bit more sophisticated in its biochemistry before it was able to pull off that stunt.

1:04:34Dr Mark ScialdoneI don't know.

1:04:37RyanYeah, well, evolution is stepwise, right? It's like when one thing happens and another thing can happen, right?

1:04:46BubblemanAnd then you have all these things happening.

1:04:49RyanYou do, and one after another, and it's like you go back and you're missing a step. Like, I mean, it's like, you know, it's like that hydroxylated terpenes, right? Like, that's like just somebody has little or acquired the ability, or sorry, little or always the result of

1:05:06Dr Mark ScialdoneOf that enzyme that allowed the... Of water adding to a carbonium ion because, yeah, you make a carbonium ion on that thing. And that's the same intermediate that cyclizes to give, you know, pinenes and terpenylenes and limonenes. I mean, all those have that six-membered ring. So it's just so interesting, again, talking about Mother Nature's atom economy. She takes one little molecule, isoprene, and she creates this huge sea of molecular diversity that's just unbelievable, right?

1:05:47RyanYeah, Giovanni Appendino, I don't know if you know him, but he used to say that nature is stingy, right? He's a great Italian cannabis phytochemist.

1:06:03RyanBut yeah, she's definitely efficient in how she works, right? She exploits every little possible.

1:06:10Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, this isn't unique to cannabis. This is all plants do this, right? I mean, of course. Yeah. Yeah. So.

1:06:17Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBut cannabis has got more medicinal compounds than a tremendous amount of plants.

1:06:26RyanIt does.

1:06:29RyanThat's a photochemical factory.

1:06:33BubblemanExactly. P.H.?

1:06:37RyanAnyway, when I see things like that, I'm reminded how excited David would have been about this. He would have been freaking out when he saw this paper. He'd be inviting Caleb over to come and dab with him.

1:06:49BubblemanYep.

1:06:50RyanHe'd definitely be the most happy.

1:06:52Dr Mark ScialdoneI dabbed CBC. We dabbed it. I had it on my gas chromatograph. He did.

1:07:03BubblemanI have a picture of being at Dave's apartment in like 2001 when he had all these different pure cannabinoids as well as isolated terpenes, not cannabis derived, but just botanical ones.

1:07:18RyanYeah, I've got that same photo. I took it actually.

1:07:21Ryan Dank AfI took one this summer because I came across all that stuff. It's still there.

1:07:25BubblemanThat's wild. It's wild. How time flies. How time flies when you're getting older. So yeah, enjoy it.

1:07:35Dr Mark ScialdoneNow, CBC, I know for a fact, because I've seen pretty damn near like 99.9% pure CBC, is an oil. It's not a solid. It's an oil. But I don't know about CBC-A. So like with THC, maybe, you know, THCA is a solid, crystalline solid, but THC itself is an oil. Exactly. I don't know. Do you know if CBCA is an oil or crystalline?

1:08:07RyanI'm not sure. He didn't have all, he didn't have all those standards because David would know that. Well, no, no, he wouldn't because when he was running all that stuff, they were doing it on a GC. They weren't using it in HPLC. So they weren't really looking at the acidic or the acidic forms.

1:08:26Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I went back and looked at our Facebook chat, you know, which, again, ended abruptly.

1:08:36Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd when THCP first came out, he just, he lit up over it. I mean, he wanted to know what I knew about it. And he's like, did you see this paper? He's like, people are taking this and getting high for three days. Have you tried this yet? And then he asked me, can you make this? Can you make me a sandwich?

1:08:58BubblemanDude, he ended up with a sample fairly quickly. He did. Oh, it took him no time. Like, what was that, a week?

1:09:03RyanThat was not for me. It took him no time when he had a sample. He was on church. He's like, yeah, I got my THCP. I was like, what?

1:09:11Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat are you talking about? And it got him crocked, right? Like he got crocked on it, didn't he?

1:09:17RyanOh, yeah. Like he said, he smoked it. Then I got up to go to the like, you know, he was diabetic, so he'd drink Coca-Cola to help regulate his blood sugar when it got low. That was his quick fix. And so he'd always be running to the kitchen to grab a can of Coke. And he said he got up to go to the kitchen like an hour later and he was stumbling.

1:09:37RyanAll right, like you said, it was really, really whacked him out. Not in a good way. He said it was strong, but he didn't really like it.

1:09:44BubblemanYeah, well, that's what happens when strong is too strong. Yeah.

1:09:51Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYou know, how many bong hits you end up taking in life? Like, let's just say, like, for me, an example, I've maybe been smoking for 38 years now. I started 14 years old. I'm 52. I'm just like, oh, weird. And I wonder if, like, what's... 13,000 long hits. And that's, that's the neat thing about two or three. And I'm just, yeah, but Puffco's are like that.

1:10:18BubblemanThey measure your hits though. So they tell you, like I met a guy in Denver who was in the 1% of all Puffco smokers. He had hit 24,000 dabs in, in like a year. It was, it was insane.

1:10:31RyanWere they all his though?

1:10:33BubblemanOh, this dude was definitely, and I, to continue, I would say when I first met Dave and went to his apartment, I can promise you, he took like 40 to 50 bong rips just in the like two to three hours that I was sitting there. I couldn't fathom it. It didn't, I couldn't wrap my head around it, to be honest. It just didn't make any sense. But like, It depends on who you are, because if you like counted up the amount of bong rips that Dave took, I think it would be an absolutely astronomically almost, we would be chuckling number.

1:11:09RyanI remember the same thing about you, bro. What? I was like, man, Marcus hits a lot. I was like, no wonder he's the bubble man. He really is like hitting a lot of domes.

1:11:22Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIn all fairness, like you can take two or three sessions on one Puffco Bowl. So it's a little hard. I'm thinking it's a little hard to. Quantify the Puffco hit.

1:11:34BubblemanWell, that's if you're putting too much in on your Puffco. If you're monitoring how much you put in as a dab, like this insane guy that I met in Denver. Shout out to you, dude. You know who you are. He was impressive, to say the least. He had the duels. He showed up with two. He was like, yeah, I got my two. You always have two. I'm like, dude, you know, you know, one's charging while one's being used.

1:11:59Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, on an average, according to AI, we take about 960 breaths per day.

1:12:05Bubbleman960, eh?

1:12:05Dr Mark ScialdoneIs that... I guess that number seems about right.

1:12:10Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd 27 of those breaths have bong hits in them. 27.

1:12:14Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's the right... Like actual bongs. So in a year, that's seven and a half million breaths.

1:12:23BubblemanThat is indeed. You know, I took my first bong rip, Josh, in Denver at my friend's place called Tetra. It's a cool lounge.

1:12:31Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI'm trying not to be upset about that because I wasn't there, but keep going.

1:12:36BubblemanYeah, this girl just randomly was like, hey, you should try this bong. I was like, all right, I cleaned the mouthpiece. And I was like, I'll give this a shot. I have to say that I have enjoyed the odd spliff since I started combusting cannabis again. It's not, it's like less than 10% of mine.

1:12:52Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo just in all fairness, a spliff, you're talking about just cannabis.

1:12:56BubblemanJust cannabis.

1:12:58Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWell, with maybe a little hash in there too. Right, but it's just sad that the spliff nowadays is like tobacco. In America, they can't.

1:13:09BubblemanOnly if you let them have it. We can steal it back, dude.

1:13:12RyanIt's pretty common in America that spliff means hash tobacco or tobacco and weed.

1:13:17BubblemanYeah, I know. But it's pretty common when I grew up that spliff meant joint. Yeah, because like when Bob Marley said spliff, I can promise you he did not have tobacco in that motherfucker.

1:13:29RyanWell, exactly. It's weird. It's Americanism. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:13:33BubblemanWell, I'm going, I'm taking it back to the Bob days in Jamaica. Spliff, no tobacco.

1:13:40RyanReclaiming it for the rest of our lives.

1:13:42BubblemanYes, of course. You know, too many things have been taken from them. They can't have this.

1:13:49Dr Mark ScialdoneBut they can have Greenland, right?

1:13:51BubblemanThey can have Greenland. I don't know anything about Greenland. I am in Canada. I don't know who's going to own me tomorrow. It could be a different group. There's a couple groups fighting over us right now. But it is what it is. Tony.

1:14:07Archive SeedsCome on.

1:14:14BubblemanI know Rasta is talking about a spliff with tobacco in it. I'm sorry. Tony said spliff is always meant tobacco. Yeah, some of them do. Absolutely. But I'm telling you, a lot of them don't.

1:14:27Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd guaranteed, that's just a newer era thing like that. And like you said, Marcus, like there's no one back in 1991. And I promise you, I smoked with every goddamn person on earth in 1991. That's amazing. Like Kelly.

1:14:39Collin PalmerUnbelievable.

1:14:40Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineEvery single person. I did not. Not one of them. It was mixed. Okay, I'm from America, right? But there's no one that considered a spliff. And I'm going to be provocative here because when you go to Europe and someone breaks out at Chellum, you know, you kind of, you don't get excited. You don't get excited because somehow.

1:14:59BubblemanSomehow.

1:15:00Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThe Chillum decided that it has to have tobacco in it.

1:15:04BubblemanI know.

1:15:06Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI honestly don't get it. I don't get it either.

1:15:08RyanFirst time I smoked a Chillum in Italy, I almost died. I was like, it's such a massive dose of nicotine. And the way the Italians smoke, they put this tiny little piece of hash in there with like a big chunk of tobacco. So you're essentially getting a big whack of nicotine with a little dose of THC. And I think I went yellow. Like I was like, I was so ill.

1:15:30RyanIt's just, it's not, you know, I remember like finally, I was like, look, I need to buy some hash, right? And so we went and saw a dealer and I bought some hash and I rolled up a joint the way that I do, right? Which is? Which is like a lot of hash. Right. And all the Italians.

1:15:50BubblemanI knew there was a reason you're my friend. But all the Italians were like, no, mate, it's too much.

1:15:55Ryan Dank AfYou're putting too much hashish in the Spinello.

1:15:58RyanRight. But it's like, you know, you'd pass. I remember being at a smokers, this Italian smokers club in Barcelona. And these guys are all rolling up like hash, sorry, tobacco weed joints. And I, you know, I'd grab a couple of grams and roll it up into a big joint and, you know, smoke a quarter of it or a third of it and then just pass it down the way.

1:16:19RyanAnd you'd watch, people would take hits off the joint and they'd look down on it like, what the hell is this? But you'd see, you know, most of the people that were true smokers, they'd be like, you know, they could appreciate the flavor. But it's like there's a thing when you're used to smoking tobacco that a full cannabis joint, it actually feels much stronger. Right. I'm the opposite way.

1:16:47RyanLike, Thank you for watching.

1:17:06BubblemanYeah. In Europe. And if you're in California, Oregon. Anywhere. All right. I got to go with Kelly. Just think of it this way. You're at the dinner table. You got 12 of your best friends and everyone's passing their fork around, but they're putting it in their mouth and then passing it to the next person and they're putting it in their mouth. It's like, you know what? I love you all, but this is gross.

1:17:26Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI personally want that fork and I'll take that fork and go put it in the garden and then eat out of it. I truly believe. In...

1:17:37BubblemanSharing the place.

1:17:38Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineChallenging your epigenetics. Challenging your epigenetics. I mean, I don't, I'm young.

1:17:45BubblemanThere's better ways. Is there? There has to be. That's how we all went through COVID and figured this out. There have to be, I just, I'm not sharing anything anymore. I got so sick in Vegas when I came home and it was just like, you know what? This is not good for my family. This is definitely not good for me. I think it's better if I just, so I carry a couple of Puffco's.

1:18:05BubblemanI carry, you know, if I roll, if I rolled a joint, I'm like, Hey, you can roll one too. Like, here you go. I got everything right here. I'm very still very much like want to make it a group thing and share and make sure everyone has what they need, but just in a sort of like a, Just different way. And I'm not really like a germaphobe, to be honest.

1:18:25BubblemanI'm not like washing my hands all the time. I'm not like alcohol spraying my hands all the time. I think that's probably not a good idea. You know, spraying yourself with those alcohols on the regular. But I still don't, I just can't. After 30 years of not sharing joints and really just recently being like, how many Puffco's do you think I shared in Vegas, Caleb? Like 400, 500?

1:18:52BubblemanAt least. Probably. That's just insane. That's too much.

1:18:59Ryan Dank AfHow many strippers did you make out with?

1:19:02BubblemanZero. I'm uncorruptible by Las Vegas, just so you know. Uncorruptible. Caleb was too. We were just cruising through there. Just not like with a little bubble around us, just like puffing bowls, not drinking alcohol, not eating steaks, not gambling, not wearing suits, not wearing suits, not wearing suits, and just being low key, you know, just like let's find a balcony where we can puff. And we seem to be on one often.

1:19:41BubblemanI did notice that.

1:19:45BubblemanStill, I did prefer Colorado over Nevada, we'll say. Colorado is darn awesome. They got it going on. There's some great people in Colorado, I have to say.

1:20:00BubblemanDid you do any boarding? I did not get to do any boarding. There was no snow when I was there. In fact, people were tripping out like this. The mountains didn't have snow. The ground had no snow. The roads had no snow. Like my buddy was like, dude, there's just snow everywhere all the time. And right now there isn't. And it's super fucking weird. But I left and then the snow fell.

1:20:23BubblemanSo but I was there. It was like 70 degrees. Like for three of the five days I was there, it was like I was in my T-shirt. This was in January.

1:20:34BubblemanIt was a bonus for me, even though I brought this super heavy like hemp jacket that like Jair gave me, the legends of hemp or whatever jacket. I got one of those kind of hemp hoodlum jackets and, you know, carrying it was a pain in the ass because I didn't check a suitcase. So I had this thing that basically weighed as much as my carry on suitcase, which was just a jacket.

1:21:00BubblemanAnd I didn't wear it once the whole time I was there. I just traveled from Canada to Colorado with it and then back to Vancouver. It was like, what a fucking waste of time and energy carrying this jacket. But it's a nice jacket. It's a special jacket. You know, I couldn't, couldn't not. It would have filled my carry-on suitcase completely full without anything else going in my carry-on suitcase.

1:21:25BubblemanThat's how big this fucking jacket is. Keeps you warm in the cold, though. It does keep you warm in the cold.

1:21:39RyanIt was a border prop.

1:21:40BubblemanWhat's that?

1:21:43RyanIt was a border prop.

1:21:51SpeakerMarcus, with your waiver, was it pretty easy when you got to the border? Did they Just look at it and let you on through or did you have to go and talk to them and then look in the system or what happened?

1:22:05BubblemanGenerally, that's what's supposed to happen. My lawyer told me when you get the waiver, it's pretty much automatic that you'll go to secondary when you go through. That hasn't happened the two times that I've gone through. The second time I went, I just give them my waiver and my passport and they take a picture and then they say, okay, go ahead and go through. The second time though, the guy said, he said, hey, you know, he says, oh, you got a waiver.

1:22:29BubblemanI said, yeah. He said, okay, well, you know that like sometimes you'll have to go to secondary. And I said, yeah, my lawyer told me that, you know, just to expect secondary every time. And he said, OK, cool. Well, not today, though. And then also sent me through. So two times that's happened. I expect maybe next time to go to secondary. But the beautiful thing is, is the 11 months of the waiver of application for the waiver is like that's the that's the big.

1:22:57BubblemanInvestigation where they make sure that you're okay to come into their country. So I'm not worried about them finding anything that is going to be like, oh, now you can't come into the country because nothing's changed for me. So I should be good. But yeah, I suspect next time I go later this month, I'm going to go to New Mexico. I suspect they'll probably now eventually pull me into secondary, but no problem.

1:23:21BubblemanI'm ready for it.

1:23:23SpeakerYeah, you know, most of my friends who have gotten the waivers, we sort of joke that it's a waiver, like they waive you right on by, like the waiver. I've heard the same thing that very rarely do those waivers ever get pulled into secondary, although they'll tell you that you do go into secondary. So that's why I was asking you, because I've just seen throughout time, everybody who gets those waivers just gets waived right on through, because like you said, they've already checked you out.

1:23:52SpeakerAnd those people who are at the border Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:24:24SpeakerAmazing. I'm just so overjoyed that that that you have that in your hands.

1:24:29BubblemanYeah, I'm super grateful for it. I've, you know, the whole time I was down there, I was telling people because people were like, kind of, I don't know, disenfranchised and complaining. And, you know, just like, like, we all do moaning about different things in life and governments and countries. And I'm just like, man, like, listen, like, I just feel grateful to be able to come here. You should be grateful that you're allowed to live here.

1:24:54BubblemanIt is actually pretty, pretty cool. You know, it's kind of like Canada. Canada is pretty cool unless you go to like, David Price- Maine and Hastings and then you see it's horrific and it's a nightmare and there's just this horrible thing going on well yeah you can find that anywhere you go. David Price- But you can also find good and after 30 years of not being able to go to the US i'm ready to go and see my friends in their different environments like I want to go, you know see see everyone.

1:25:24RyanYeah, if you don't focus on the negative stuff, there's a lot of beauty in the United States.

1:25:28BubblemanOh my gosh, dude. So many great friends, so many amazing people, like all over the US to go and to go visit.

1:25:38RyanWell, the incredible geography too. I mean, beautiful, incredible. And you know, I like I spent three years down there working in California. And like some of the geoengineering, like the things that they did to build the dams and, you know, the scale of agriculture. Like it's just nobody does agriculture like the United States. Nobody on the planet. It's just massive industrial scale ag. Thank you for watching.

1:26:31BubblemanYeah, I mean, it's all a part of it. Also, you know, all the songs and all the music and the movies and the shows that just like over the years, like I'm in Denver going to Colorado and I see like the sign on the highway with like the mountains in the background and, you know, called Boulder, Boulder, you know, just tucked right in there. And I'm coming from Denver and I'm like, what?

1:26:53BubblemanThis is cool. It's like.

1:26:55RyanIt really is. Well, it's just that geography, like that plateau off the Rockies is just an incredible, it's an incredible, it's an incredible spot on the continent. It really is like a unique, beautiful spot.

1:27:12Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, Boulder's very magical when you drive down 36 there and you're basically looking at the flat irons with the mountains. That big peak back there is Longs Peak, which is kind of like the crown jewel of the front range. You have Pikes Peak to the south, but Longs Peak is the... Is the 14er that's in Rocky Mountain National Park right there in Estes Park, which is the national park that's just above.

1:27:39BubblemanWho Pure Pressure named their machine after.

1:27:42Dr Mark ScialdoneYes, exactly right.

1:27:44BubblemanBoth of them actually, Pikes and Longs.

1:27:47Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, Longs, right, the Longs Peak Press, right? So, and Longs is a really challenging hike. You know, I summited it twice when I lived out in Fort Collins. And this is the kind of hike that you have to be there at the parking lot right at daybreak to get up to the peak and back down before it gets dark. And it's not the kind of peak that you want to be caught at.

1:28:15Dr Mark ScialdoneSo yeah, it's a beautiful place.

1:28:19Collin PalmerColorado is dope. I tuned in this summer from the Continental Divide.

1:28:30Dr Mark ScialdoneThat road that goes through the Continental Divide there in Rocky Mountain National Park is what is that called? Trail Ridge Road, I think, right? I think it's open for most of the year. I think they might close in the middle of the winter. But if you are, yeah, traveling in Colorado, definitely go up Trail Ridge Road. And you could stop at the Visitor Center on top. And I think right at that point, you're looking at basically the continental divide, which is just, you know, the water on this side of the mountain flows to the Pacific, the water on this side flows to the Atlantic, probably through the Gulf, right?

1:29:10Collin PalmerThere's a glacier lake up there as well, right at the foot of Estes Park there.

1:29:17BubblemanWas that a proxy I saw you holding up there?

1:29:19Collin PalmerYeah, I was just gonna, you guys were, I was just like holding, I was saying to myself, I was like, nice, like this feels like from a product design point of view, like right on guys, nice work.

1:29:30BubblemanListen, there's nothing, nothing beats this piece for your, for your proxy when you're laying on the couch.

1:29:36Collin PalmerI love how outrageous that is.

1:29:37BubblemanI'm telling you, it's...

1:29:41Collin PalmerHell yeah.

1:29:42Dr Mark ScialdoneSize matters, right?

1:29:43Collin PalmerYeah, well. I don't know about that. The flute over there that he's got, yes.

1:29:50Dr Mark ScialdoneSo we have like a club here, right?

1:29:52Collin PalmerI guess so. Thank you to Roger and the whole team. Marcus, of course. Thanks, bro.

1:29:58SpeakerSorry, out of the club. I've got my bong.

1:30:02Collin PalmerYou're in the bong zone. You got the real tool. Yeah. I could go get my bong. I haven't.

1:30:06SpeakerI've got the OG matches. I always light my bongs with matches.

1:30:10BubblemanThe wood ones.

1:30:12SpeakerClean, beautiful.

1:30:13BubblemanYeah, the red birds or whatever.

1:30:16SpeakerYeah, red birds.

1:30:17RyanSomeone's echoing pretty bad.

1:30:20BubblemanThat's Mark. I'll mute him. I don't know why that is, but yes, I have two things with Mark. When he speaks in gallery or speaker, it doesn't show him. So like if Colin speaks and then Mark speaks, it'll stay on Colin the whole time Mark is speaking and that drives me nuts. So that's why I have it on gallery right now where it's all of us. Also, Ryan has his camera off and I hate that when it's speaker because then it's just a picture.

1:30:48BubblemanSo I'm like, I just have it open to all of us. So If you don't want your face being seen.

1:30:53Dr Mark ScialdoneI'm really calling.

1:30:55BubblemanYou're really calling.

1:30:56Collin PalmerI'm over. I'm already overloading this thing by design. I'm sorry. Let's go. I overload.

1:31:02Dr Mark ScialdoneI'm going to disconnect my microphone. Maybe that makes it better. Let's see.

1:31:07SpeakerIs that better?

1:31:07Dr Mark ScialdoneDoes it seem echo-y? It just seems like the echo is louder.

1:31:15Collin PalmerEcho is louder? Damn it.

1:31:22BubblemanEarphones on. So that's why there's an echo. But if you mute Dr. Mark, you'll notice now the echo is gone. There is no more echo. So I've done the research. I've published the paper. It's been accepted by my peers. Something wrong with your microphone. Okay, how about now? I can hear myself.

1:31:49SpeakerYou know, you were talking about going down to America and I just definitely have to give props to the Americans. You know, it's like I'm American, but we've been living here in Canada for 30 years now. So I really feel like we've had our foot, you know, in both countries and I feel American Canadian. Like I don't feel like one over the other. And I think that You know, so much of the culture is so similar, but then there's some things in the culture that are not, but it's enough that they really, they really benefit each other, you know, and I love the go back, back and forth and Canadians sort of huck hucking it up with the Americans and, I just, I just really, I love it.

1:32:40SpeakerAnd I really think that going down to America, you know, Americans and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, Americans are really fun people. Canadians are super fun people. And when you go over to the rest of the world, sometimes people are just a little bit more, you know, take a backseat on things. And even though Americans will interrupt usually, and there's a lot of conversations going on at once and, There's something really awesome about that and a lot of energy is sort of formed in a group when you've got Canadians and Americans together and I just really love that and it's fun that you got to go down there and experience that because For me, like we'll have really big gatherings at the house where we've got 30 people over for Thanksgiving or Christmas and it's always half American, half Canadian.

1:33:29SpeakerAnd it's so fun that just sort of back and forth is really amazing and sort of the clashing, not clashing, but the bringing together of the two cultures, but yet so totally similar. So big ups to the Canadians and the Americans for being so awesome in the world because we travel all over the world and Really great people. And people all of them are great, but you know.

1:33:53BubblemanAnd shout out to the Glass community in Colorado because that Evergreen studio was another like top quality experience of just something that I miss here in Vancouver that I used to have when Slinger lived here and we had his sort of thing going on and we were doing the shows and it was just a different vibe. But it really felt like that same vibe going to Evergreen and visiting with like Yashin and Nate Myers and You know, Alex Ubatuba and Matt Robertson, who I did his podcast while I was there.

1:34:26BubblemanHopefully that'll come out in the next couple of months. That guy films a podcast like every day. He's an absolute machine. I thought doing once a week was hardcore, but shout out to Matt. Also, incredible artists. When you look at the Glass Giraffes and You know, different animals that he puts on, you know, I asked him at one point, I'm like, what, why is it on that thing?

1:34:47BubblemanHe's like, oh, that, he's like that, that exercise bike used to be in my grandpa's basement. And I always remembered it as a kid. And so when I was blowing glass, I was like, I'm going to put them on my grandpa's exercise bike. I love that authenticity of the story and how it was, you know, really a solid root from his past to sort of manifest in his art.

1:35:12SpeakerI was on the phone yesterday with Peter Mossy Giant, who has done the history of cannabis. And I was talking to him for a couple of hours. And he was, they're now looking into the history of cannabis, the US and West Coast. And he was just saying that He can't really get through even one conversation about the history of cannabis without glass coming into it. And then he can't get through the next sentence about the history of cannabis without the Grateful Dead coming into it.

1:35:49SpeakerSo he was saying that here he is this. Yeah. And he was saying Snodgrass. Who is the Snodgrass? Do you know who the Snodgrass is? I was like, wow, great. Great that you asked me. That's my family. But how amazing that, you know, he's trying to piece together This history of cannabis without any knowledge really of the glass industry and then also without any knowledge of the Grateful Dead.

1:36:18SpeakerAnd he said, it's just so amazing to be walking down the hallways of these historical stories and visuals for him to be able to paint without really totally understanding what it is. And it was so awesome. I'm hearing his reflection as a younger person, as an artist who is in the cannabis world, but doesn't have the history of the cannabis world, but yet uncovering it the way that he is.

1:36:48SpeakerIt was so, yeah, all those players came up in our conversation about glass with him yesterday. It was really amazing.

1:36:56BubblemanShout out to the Mossy Giant. I almost put his hat on today. This one was just right next to it. And I went with the pure fire, but it was so close. It was almost Mossy Giant. And I had his hat on on the first day of grow up when I ran into, and maybe you can remind me, Ryan, who the Dutch gentleman was that had the yellow mossy giant hat on the first day?

1:37:17BubblemanJason, maybe? You knew him. He was Dutch or German. He's a researcher, I think. Maybe Ryan's not there.

1:37:26Ryan Dank AfThe first day at the... Grow up, yeah.

1:37:30RyanOh, at the, uh, was that Chris Van, Chris, Chris?

1:37:35BubblemanThat sounds right.

1:37:36RyanYeah.

1:37:37BubblemanYeah. He had a mossy giant hat on the first day. We both, I was like, he was like, oh, mossy giant. It was kind of neat to have the exact same hat. And I've, I've never seen anyone else with that hat. So it was, uh, It was fun.

1:37:49SpeakerThat's cool. We're doing a really awesome collaboration with Mossy Giant for Mary Jane and Vibes 420 and then sort of carrying on.

1:38:00Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineNot Vibes 420. Oh, yeah.

1:38:02SpeakerSorry, Vibes.

1:38:03Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineFrog 420 is the event that's right before Mary Jane, the week before.

1:38:06SpeakerYeah, thanks. Yeah, so we're working with Marco and Vibes and Mary Jane and Mossy Giant and putting together this super swanky, gonna look like a hotel lobby, legacy lounge area for everybody eating out.

1:38:25Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineA meeting point for amazing people to come have conversations, to smoke good herb, to talk about Deeper subjects and get out a little bit of an oasis in the middle of a 65,000 plus person event. Largest one in the world still right now. Berlin, Brazil's trying to come in. It's got two big events, but 65,000 plus is what they're expecting this year in Berlin. That's a big one.

1:38:55BubblemanMary Jane is so busy and crazy. It's insane. It's the first event I ever went to that had like beaches and people partying and DJs and fucking swimming pools floating on the river out in front of the venue, like giant, like Olympic size pool, just floating in a wood box. Like it was insane. Completely insane. How are you doing, Etienne?

1:39:20Etienne FontanLoving this conversation. I love Mossy Giant and Stefan and the crew over at La Crema Gracia. I mean, I'd love to see more places like what they have there, which is all of Mossy's art completely on the wall for you to get high on at any time and just stare at it. And it's so much to look at because he's just such a generational artist. You know, that really, I guess it's a new generation of cannabis art.

1:39:51Etienne FontanAnd it really, it struck a chord with me. And I love that Stefan has been his benefactor, allowing him to do his art, be creative and just do what he does. So we got to meet him again, you know,

1:40:08Etienne FontanRon was in Barcelona and just everything he does is just very unique, very, it reminds me of the 60s, you know, art kind of a cross between, you know, Cannabis and the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. You know, which is not easy to do. You know what I'm saying? To create your own niche in cannabis. But his visualizations, without a doubt. And I've been assisting them with the U.S. as well as I just got a copy of the Mexico, which is amazing.

1:40:41Etienne FontanI thought it was going to be another year before that was done. But I'll be damned if Mossy didn't, you know, go under it and make it happen. And yeah. It's gorgeous. I can't show it, but it was it's because I got it's the early, you know, the view before it's released. But it's it's epic because the history in Mexico and cannabis is so rich and deep and intergrained in their society that it is really interesting.

1:41:08Etienne FontanI'm going to put Mexico on the map for cannabis that already was, but for more people, I think it will give them a deeper understanding of why it matters and how our effects on their culture has been down pressing exponentially, especially on cannabis. And so a lot of this information that's in there, I only heard bits and pieces about here and there and to get a full history of the Mexican cannabis right on nothing but love and respect to the people of Mexico and their culture and their culture and cannabis and that it will be highlighted before the United States I think is pretty fucking awesome too because usually U.S. takes the you know the cake and a lot of things but he did the Dutch history first then now the Mexican history and The U.S. one's going to be quite a lift and undertaking in the sense of we realize how deep our roots in cannabis are, but also how we've affected everybody's cannabis roots around the world in both positive and negative, probably more negative.

1:42:13Etienne FontanThank you for joining us.

1:42:32Etienne FontanAny access to capture the history and especially as fluid as our history has been in cannabis around the world, I think is key and important and one I think that's Caleb's been working on. If people aren't aware, Caleb's been working with a gentleman by the name of Dominic Corva on the history of cannabis in California and an oral history by physically going, meeting with the people who did the shit, were in the shit, and interviewing them and It's got to be a challenge, Caleb, because so many people are dying or memories are fading.

1:43:07Etienne FontanOn top of that, they do research about and around even just one story. So I don't know if you could take us through a little bit of that, Caleb, because it's got to be a challenge to engage people on this Anthropology, sort of sociology, which people have held so close to their vest, right, historically, because of, you know, potentially going to jail, being arrested, etc. Now, you know, laying that history out, because a lot of that statute of limitations has passed, so people feel comfortable talking about what really made our cannabis history.

1:43:44Etienne FontanAnd of course, I would hope after America, Canada would be following suit, but... Caleb, how big of a challenge is that nowadays, especially with your older anthropology?

1:43:58SpeakerSo the just what Dominic and I are doing is like ethnography. And so one of the ways that we address like this is that the people that we interview are by default anonymized. And there's also an IRB form that the school has to approve and then that has to be signed by the participants so they're aware of the risks in participating. So we lay out like, you know, perhaps you're talking about things that are were or are federally illegal or, you know, despite this or that.

1:44:38SpeakerAnd At the end of the day, it's up to the researcher to protect the identities of the people that they're able to talk with. And in terms of the cannabis community, and there are lots of other communities that have understandably much consternation about researchers coming in. And so that's definitely something that we've dealt with as well. There have been people that Thank you for joining us.

1:45:29SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

1:45:53SpeakerWith it being a Department of Cannabis Control funded project, there are people who do not want to participate just based on that. And that is not something that I would ever hold against someone because, you know, if you're pissed at the man for, you know, real reasons, then... Thank you so much for joining us.

1:46:29Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThat sounds spectacular. And we've been traveling to farms since 1990, buying, selling, checking, seeing it all, and really watching everyone go from bought soil and pots to going to putting their weed in the ground. I really like that part of the history of cannabis in California. The whole moment that everyone said, whoa, These pots are killing our microbiology. They're using more water. We have to buy water, put it in plastic containers.

1:47:07Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI have like 8,500 gallon containers up on the hill. When people started, and it was like this thing of leap of, it was literally like this emotional leap of faith. Like, I don't know if I can put the weed in the ground. And then if you start being like, all right, well go get your forest and sticks and everything. And maybe instead of burning, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:48:03Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd then just watching the herb change and watching people like just rows and rows of just like no one's buying soil anymore. Like people are just mounding and layering and it's like, The weed really did get, it changed it in a lot of ways. The sun grown. That's what I mean.

1:48:21SpeakerYeah, just sun grown. Of course.

1:48:23Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineIf you're talking about California.

1:48:24SpeakerAnd that really changed a lot of the breeding. Yeah, for sure. When we talk about California, we're talking about sun.

1:48:29Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineTons of indoor, obviously, but like the specialty is like, wow. I look, check out, have you guys seen the sun?

1:48:36SpeakerI just saw this article actually, and I'm feeling really dumb. I can't even remember where it was, but it was talking about, Oh, maybe somebody else saw it. Oh, I feel stupid because I can't remember where it was, but you guys maybe will remember it. But talking about how the sun grown weed in California really changed Everything. And it goes into the depth of how it changed the way that we did breeding and how it changed everything.

1:49:08SpeakerAnd the whole article brought it back to just simply California sun. And it was really cool. So I really think that California has got this incredible golden state.

1:49:18Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThe golden shores, you know.

1:49:21SpeakerAlso, you know, I wanted to say that, ATN, you were mentioning that entire history of cannabis, which is in La Creme Gracia.

1:49:30Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI got to Blue Ice and Edu as well, just to interject.

1:49:33SpeakerYeah, yeah. And those guys are going to bring the entire wall and the history of cannabis. And all of the Mexico. And they're trying to get a whole bunch of the Pacific Northwest or the U.S. stuff done by that time. And they're going to put it up so people can walk all the way along it.

1:49:54Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineLook for the garden on the map when you get to Mary Jane. Run by vibes, Marco.

1:50:00SpeakerYeah, and I think that, you know, throughout the day, we'll have every couple of hours, Stefan is going to come and maybe curate it and explain to all of the people that come up and look at it. And there'll be a live explanation of this whole entire history as he walks along the wall. For everybody at Mary Jane, it's super exciting. And Caleb, I love what you're doing.

1:50:23SpeakerThat is really amazing.

1:50:26Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWe're a special person, Caleb. We're excited to get to know you more and just to see your whole offering through your brilliance that you bring to the table.

1:50:38SpeakerYeah, thanks for doing that work. Somebody's got to write it all down and scribe this because it's important.

1:50:45Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd if you tried to do that.

1:50:46SpeakerJust the research assistant when we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Yeah, but the research assistant is huge, you know, because I don't want to be a research assistant. And a lot of us that, you know, have brought the cannabis industry to, you know, where it is. Then to have people who want to research it is really imperative for not only the message to keep going, but For cannabis to be able to have the avenues that have opened up and by being able to scribe it, the avenues just continue to open.

1:51:19SpeakerSo your contribution allows cannabis to walk through tremendous more doors than how we were have been pushing and kicking doors open. You now help us just sort of they are opened right up. So thanks. Absolutely. Getting it on the record for the people who are not part of cannabis culture to hopefully understand more and stop treating us the way they do.

1:51:44Etienne FontanWe got to get Dominic on here, who is your mentor, who is doing this because he's the researcher out of Cal Poly Humboldt, who's been doing this for the DCC for a while and all around great guy, great teacher, as well as the history that he's working on. But there's a motherfucker I haven't seen in a little bit. What's up, Fletch? How you doing, bud?

1:52:06Archive SeedsPretty good. Yeah, I can attest to how difficult researching history in cannabis is because, I mean, essentially what my whole business has been is, you know, searching the varieties that are with these people and the amount of Fabrication that you have to filter through is unbelievable. It's actually the majority of the information in this space is all fabricated by people. And there's a lot of revisionist history in this space that stuff that just never happened, things that people never did, people taking credit for things that they never accomplished or even contributed to.

1:52:49Archive SeedsI would say is the norm, not the exception. And, um, that just, that, that makes this space extremely difficult because not only do you have the lack of any written history, but the oral history is rife with, uh, misinformation and malicious misinformation in a lot of cases simply because people wanted to insert themselves into, uh, Things that happened that they weren't a part of but are now taking credit for because they know that no one is going to challenge them because of the illegality for so many years.

1:53:23Etienne FontanSo how do you negotiate that, Caleb? I mean, you're dealing when somebody you know, because you've heard multiple stories, you get various angles before you even interview somebody. How do you deal with that when you catch somebody in an outright lie? I mean, you can't really necessarily confront them per se, but I mean, as a gatekeeper of the history, how do you negotiate something like that? Or how do you and Dominic, you know, handle something like that because it's what Fletch is saying it's very fucking real and it's very true and there's no way you haven't run into it all together already so how do you you know handle that

1:54:01SpeakerWell, so the project that Dominic and I are doing, we're writing collective stories. So, you know, really focused on the places because he's a geographer, a human geographer, though, the places and the people and like people as like a group. So, you know, when it comes to, you know, stories about like what made Kovalo a... A legacy cannabis growing place or, you know, obviously lots of regions in Oregon as well and all over the country, really.

1:54:29SpeakerBut this project really focused that California and specific regions and, you know, these the stories of the plants, you end up with all that, you know, myth information, misinformation, malicious information, all that stuff. And, you know, because we're interviewing essentially like 95 people. We can corroborate stuff. And really, when we're writing, what Dominic has been emphasizing is that We have to be upfront that this is not like an end-all be-all of truth.

1:55:01SpeakerThis is a report of, you know, just a small subset of the community. And really it's setting the stage for people to refute it, for people to update it, all that kind of stuff. It's a method for doing this type of research and hope that more people do it and, you know, would love to be corrected. And we're also very conscious of not putting things out there that would need to be corrected, I guess is another way to put it.

1:55:29Etienne FontanThat's an interesting line to walk as well as comprehend. I mean, because it's such a deep, rich skein that is woven in the cannabis history and to undo each thread in that fabric has got to be a challenge because of the lies and misinformation and all that. That's... Yeah, an enviable work, but I think work that needs to happen because California has such rich history, but so does Canada, Washington, Oregon.

1:56:03Etienne FontanI'd love to see these types of breakdowns in, you know, each state and each region so that people can understand the rich history that is available to them that Thank you so much for joining us.

1:56:37Etienne FontanThen push them to write, to grow, to be illegal, to make that physical choice, to step on the other side of that line until that line, you know, change turned gray now into white. Right. And just in descriptors, you know, it's such a vast history that isn't written and it's always been a challenge when we hear information from a grower as exactly what Fletch was saying that this person did this but i mean just the research that been done in and around skunk number one right which is a genetic that we all have been aware of dave watson and of course nothing but not to him watching the history projects as different people try to grasp just skunk number one So, you know, I've watched Ryan talk and discuss about, you know, the chemical profiles we were talking yesterday about, you know, just that of trying to see if somebody who found a seed, if this seed is actually a skunk number one, as opposed to I'm saying this is what it was and watching the Walk back the history the tracing of it has been a fascinating watch as people try to really uncover like it's an Agatha Christie you know uh you know mystery going on right that you know the Scooby-Doo kids are are in the midst of hunting down and finding and different pieces of that history are popping up but so is misinformation and myth information as you were saying too so Ryan, you're kind of that holder of that key.

1:58:18Etienne FontanSo as the regional heretic for your putting out of the real information to people, how do you come to terms with that mentally and emotionally? Because that affects you.

1:58:35Ryan Dank AfWell, I was saying yesterday, there's two things that people confuse in the cannabis genetic story. One of them is botany and the study of the plant. And the other is about the anthropology and the people of the plant that are sharing the seeds. And we really confuse those two things. And like, there's all this stupid celebrity in the cannabis business that I just find completely distasteful. I'm interested in the plant.

1:59:09Ryan Dank AfAnd while I have relationships with the people of the plant, and a lot of them, like as you know, I was very close with David, and there's a lot of people, other people that have done important things in the cannabis industry that I have relationships with. I'm more interested in the plant and the work. I don't really care about what they did or who they know or why everybody thinks they're great.

1:59:31Ryan Dank AfAnd so I try to like kind of ignore the anthropological part of things. Um, because it, it's just, it's not my interest. My interest is the botany and the science of the plant and the traits and the chemistry and the molecules and the, the genes that make those molecules that I can work with through breeding. And I've just been so disappointed over the last 30 years when you come to learn these stories about the people, and then you realize that it's all just a big lie.

2:00:04Ryan Dank AfThank you for watching.

2:00:30Ryan Dank AfAnd it turns out that the plant that they are famous for isn't even their plant, right? And it's just like the entire community just got it wrong and has put them up on a shelf. And I remember the first time I went to Holland was in like 98 and going over there and learning a little bit. And then in subsequent trips, essentially meeting people that were connected and, you know, getting a little bit of a look inside the Dutch scene and realizing that it was all this big fugazi.

2:00:59Ryan Dank AfRight, like it was a big, like, it was a big show that was made to look like these guys were running seed, they were running plant breeding and research and development firms. When in reality, the only person doing any research was David. Everybody else was just knocking plants together in closets, right, in Dutch closets. And, you know, there had been this kind of idea put forth that it was like a whole real industry, solid industry behind the scenes.

2:01:25Ryan Dank AfWhen in fact like that was just uh it was all just smoke and mirrors right and so like learning that early on and realizing that most of the stuff it just continued as the internet came along right because people people could put up a couple of bud shots and create this image that they were doing the real work. But there was nothing behind it, right? And as someone that is educated in plant sciences and I, you know, I have this understanding when I look at a population of seeds, like when I buy seeds, I don't buy a five pack of seeds.

2:02:01Ryan Dank AfLike I'll buy like 10 packs of seeds and grow them all out together so that I can see the phenotypic spread and start to understand the ratios and the patterns of inheritance. And I think what happens is people buy these three or five packs of seeds And they think that that's representative of the population. And when you actually grow out a full population, you realize that it's not right.

2:02:24Ryan Dank AfAnd so the larger the growth that you do, you realize it's just plainly obvious that there is no real breeding work that goes into a lot of these lines. And you can't see that unless you're growing out a big enough population, right? To see the phenotypic spread. So

2:02:47Ryan Dank AfI am quite disappointed in the anthropological side of things. It doesn't mean I don't like the people, but I think that it's very misleading across the... I think that's something that's like a really misleading force in our industry. The plants don't lie, people do. Exactly. Well, they can't...

2:03:05SpeakerI think you're upset at the biographical side of it, right?

2:03:09Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, it's like you get these stories. I mean, I was down at one of the cups in Oregon a few years ago. I went down and spoke there. This has been like four or five years now, maybe even six years. But I was down there and they had a cup, somebody that had taken a CBD plant and renamed it. And they had entered it into a cup with this big long story about how it was this, theirs, and the other thing.

2:03:31Ryan Dank AfAnd it, you know, I think Phylos did a DNA sequencing on it that realized it was just, One of these ACDC plants from down in California, right? And it's like the hubris that it takes to take somebody else's plant and create a whole backstory about it, how it's yours and you've developed it through these years. And frankly, it wasn't even a very good plant. Like it was honestly, the plant kind of sucked.

2:04:00Ryan Dank AfIt was a type three. There was a CBD plant in a time when there weren't a lot of CBD plants around. But like to create this whole narrative and then be, you know, caught with your underpants down essentially through genetic sequencing, it's pretty fucking embarrassing. You know, you should, these people should feel really dumb that you tried to pull that stuff off in front of a community.

2:04:27Ryan Dank AfI do my part. Listen, it's not, I know you do. You remind me of me in my younger days when I used to give a fuck.

2:04:38Ryan Dank AfThere's no amount of spanking, unfortunately, in this community that is effective, right? Like, it's just, there's always some other dumbass. It's just fun, mostly.

2:04:52SpeakerThis is human nature. I mean, come on. If we're looking at the history of anything, every guy's face has been knocked off and replaced with a different language.

2:05:04Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineMedical procedures are named after some dudes.

2:05:09SpeakerSomething that's totally in nature. I mean, how many trees are named after some guy just because he founded it? It really isn't just indicative to the cannabis scene. It's indicative to human nature. And it's super indicative to people that are feeling like... You know, I think the real issue is that it's a mixture of people not having a whole lot of confidence about their soul path here.

2:05:38SpeakerYou know, we all come with a really deep spiritual soul path, I believe. And when we're not aligned with that soul path, we're always trying to grasp and reach at anything that we possibly can. Thank you so much.

2:06:09SpeakerMaybe these myths are helping people, but yet it's fucking things up as well. It's inspiring.

2:06:17Collin PalmerI will say it's a lot of mental gymnastics to get there on that. That's why I think like Canopedia is helpful. I've submitted a ton of stuff there. You can see just to create patterns and data just to be like, okay, if someone's telling me this is sour or whatever the name of the variety is. And they're so sure, then it should hit for these things that we've all had in our collections for a long time.

2:06:44Collin PalmerAnd most of the time, it just doesn't even come close, right? And I find like Fletcher's alluding to, and I also think what Kelly is bringing up is funny, but it's also, You know, it's also mentally kind of sad because you're like, well, you have to go through this to make yourself feel validity, right, and feel valid. And I just think the work, if you go through the experience of doing the work, as I think Fletcher often says, and I also often say all the time, it's more gratifying to go through that at the end of the day.

2:07:18SpeakerThat's authentic.

2:07:21Collin PalmerYeah, it's just, it's, well, isn't it like, Marcus, it's not only authentic, but it's experiential. Like, go get the seeds, fuck up the germination rate or something, go back and try again. Like, do the things that you do.

2:07:35BubblemanPeople are so insecure. Even in the things they've done, they're so insecure. That they want to rewrite the story. And the minute they rewrite the story, they create this empty hole in themselves that now no lie will fulfill. Because you're now you've now removed yourself from your biggest value, which is your authenticity. It doesn't matter how impressive your fucking story is. It just matters that it's fucking authentic and accurate.

2:08:03BubblemanAnd once you're in that pocket. You're untouchable. Exactly. And you can stand on that, right?

2:08:10Collin PalmerAnd I think that's the biggest issue with what Fletcher was saying with the, you don't want to call it the industry, it's the community. Call it just that. Is just gain some, you know, don't be so insecure about things. Go through process. Like allow yourself to fail a million times. Listen, I had to do this the hardest way. It's laziness.

2:08:29BubblemanI ended up in a lawsuit. I ended up in a lawsuit. I ended up in a lawsuit that would have been in my best interest to be able to rewrite the history. But when I found the history, instead, I just shared it. Did it cost me? Yeah, it cost me like it cost me like it was a big hit, but it was the authentic story. And I had to like.

2:08:51BubblemanThank you so much for watching.

2:09:09BubblemanAt least I was authentic with myself. You know, I was like, and so was Jason from Payload Bags. I got to shout him out. He was a part of my lawsuit. And he also paid out Reinhard Delp. When we found the true history, when we found that the bags had 1000% come out of his machine,

2:09:27BubblemanThen it made sense to for him to be a part of that. We could have rewritten the history like lots of people that sold bags tried to do that weren't in into paying. But, you know, so I see there's sometimes reasons. I think the main reason is that people are insecure and they're just trying to fill this empty hole. But then there are other times where it like lines up with their with their pocketbook.

2:09:51BubblemanYou know, it's like, well, this is the narrative. This is the story I have to tell in order to get what I want to get.

2:09:58Ryan Dank AfAnd it's like, that's it. Like, I don't, you know, I don't think that anybody can really feel good about creating this fake story and getting up in the morning and every day and be like, Yeah, I'm important in the weed business. It's a pretty shallow existence. How can you look at yourself in the mirror if you're building this entire thing on a lie? And again, I think that for a lot of people, they don't actually don't care because it is about the money, right?

2:10:27Ryan Dank AfAs long as the money is rolling in and they have enough money to pay for their lifestyle or maybe get things that they couldn't get otherwise, they don't care about selling out the story, right?

2:10:38Archive SeedsThese people don't even grow weed in the first place or even anything to do with the plant, you know, much less.

2:10:47BubblemanSo that's so true.

2:10:49Ryan Dank AfWell, and those people and listen, let's not like mince words about this. There's some really big names in the industry that are like that, right? Like they're not even fucking growers. And they've never, they've got seed companies and they're online telling stories. And, you know, we all know these people. They're all selling these stories of how they've been important in doing this for 30 years. And the reality is, is that they're buying seeds there that they've had, you know, they've taken from someone else and they've hacked them in some other random grow room and a tiny little population selection.

2:11:25Ryan Dank AfAnd they're selling the seeds to a bunch of suckers. Yeah. And they say they got the roadkill skunk.

2:11:33Etienne FontanWell, all of that, you know, the ego that came, that, all right, let's, let's be honest. I mean, coming up, I mean, as I was coming up 30 years ago, everybody, every, every grower seller had their own story, right? And that's how we had all heard these legends, et cetera. However, we also learned that because of this isolationism through economics, It caused their egos to grow, right?

2:11:59Etienne FontanAnd because nobody said their weed was shit. Nobody said their stuff. So they kind of became like artists. And I say this as an artist and as a musician. So I kind of have both angles here. And I've seen very spoiled and very coddled musicians who have never been challenged, who have never had their authenticity challenged. And the egos of musicians Growers I say really grew to be petulant children because they have never really been challenged and so their egos fed these stories because again it did feed their pocketbooks because of based on legend This person, it came from this, that way and the other, right?

2:12:46Etienne FontanIt doesn't matter what region. It is as equal in Canada as it is in the United States, as it is across Europe, right? You've watched growers become so egotistical among themselves that they can allow that. So I think there's... And ego inflation, we gave them right in prohibition that I think the veil of post prohibition is pulling down because people want to know the history. They want to know the truth.

2:13:12Etienne FontanThey want to know where things came from. Right. But I think we've been so permeated with so many lies and misinformation that, you know, ourselves, we don't know. And we look to the Calebs and others who are doing the history so that even we can learn the real history as opposed to what we've been told. So there's a that truth between myth and reality is something that has been shaped in our own smoking circles.

2:13:41Etienne FontanSo I think that's just an interesting sociology that we've seen go down as we've grown up in it that hasn't made the leap into the commercial culture because it's it's an inherent school, you know, school rules, school, school. You know, playground rules, right? That have never really been official until now that regulators have put the definitions on things. There's now rules to things, right? There's rules to what even names of concentrate.

2:14:10Etienne FontanWe used to call concentrates hashish, but now there's different names for just, you know, there's charas, there's, you know, extractions, there's pressings, you know, there's all different things now that we're growing into as a community, as well as a culture, as we try to bridge this Division between the world that we grew up in, which is that traditional market, as many of us negotiate these realities that come with overtaxation and the overburdens of that.

2:14:46Etienne FontanI just think it's fascinating.

2:14:49SpeakerAnd also, you know, Ryan, you were saying that, you know, you're not inspired with the sociology of it, of the people of it, of the community of it. And I understand that. I get that. It makes a lot of sense because I feel like what we're talking today is a lot of the fake players, in all honesty. The truth be told for me and not at all like in opposition to what you were saying at all because I totally hear where you're coming from and being an international cannabis and all these packs and this pack and then that pack and they don't even know where the fuck the weed is coming from.

2:15:27SpeakerIt's just all about marketing now and now the names are put up there because of marketing.

2:15:32Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBranding.

2:15:33SpeakerAnd, you know, I do think about like back in the day, the people who held on to, you know, certain types of strains or varietals or individuals, cuttings, people that really got out their flower because, you know, the the the perones of the world or or, you know, the people we talk about. The giants whose shoulders that we stand on, you know, those people were the real deal.

2:16:01SpeakerAnd and they made it to where, you know, the press a man was heavy. I know on even even in my head by the time I reached it in the 80s when when I was swinging weed and I can't even imagine what people were dealing with necessarily like in the 70s when they were going door to door. Well, no, I'm going to I'm going to take that out because we had all I think it's really important for us to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to

2:16:40SpeakerI just, I'm sort of, I'm going off here, but what I want to say is that there are a lot of families who super held it down. They held down the genetics. They held down, you know, giving cannabis A relationship with medicinal, making sure that it wasn't just all recreational, that they were making medicine and that they were making strains and being able to put genetics out for particular reasons.

2:17:08SpeakerSo a lot of those people are unknown. A lot of those people, we don't even know who they are and they maybe never will be found.

2:17:16Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI know those people.

2:17:18SpeakerI know those people who we were getting, you know, hundreds of pounds from, which was a lot back in the day. And they were carrying the strains for everybody all back in the eighties, all the way through the nineties. I never hear their names now. I don't even know where they are or who those people are, but guaranteed they were an origination of a lot of where the flavors and the varietals came from and they could lose their children.

2:17:44SpeakerThey could have lost their land. They could have lost everything. And I know a lot of people are still dealing with that everywhere in the world. And, you know, kudos to them for still carrying the seed. But I, yeah, so I sort of am like, I feel like the plant doesn't lie, but also there's a lot of people who carry the plant that don't lie either.

2:18:07Ryan Dank AfWell, and listen, I'm not, I know how important these relationships are to you. And like, you know, Josh was talking about it last week with the people that you got the Valencian dominant plant from. Right. Like a real researcher doing real work and working with universities and all this stuff. I get it. Like, I, I, I'm not, I'm not trying to minimize the work that they're doing, the contributions that they made to our movement.

2:18:33Ryan Dank AfOkay. I'm really not like, I, I, I, I laud those people. When you talk about genetics and strains being passed down like these, this is the reason that I harp on the word strain so much is that cannabis is not a strain. A strain is an organizm that when it reproduces, the offspring look like the parents. And that doesn't happen with cannabis. So when you talk about genetics passing from one hand to another, now we're leaving the world of anthropology and we're entering the world of botany and biology.

2:19:06Ryan Dank AfAnd that's why I draw that tight line down between the center of them, because you can be a contributing member of the cannabis community and have done all these great things and sharing seeds. You're not a fucking breeder. It doesn't mean that you're a breeder and you understand how to package up Thank you for joining us today.

2:19:37Ryan Dank AfMojave was talking about it yesterday, you know, on our science group meeting, and he was making this great point. It's like, you know, people do this stuff out of love. They like, they cross their two favorite kids together and they want to share those plants with the world. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't call it breeding, right? Because it's not, it's not breeding. Breeding is intentionally assembling traits or making a seed line representative of a type.

2:20:01Ryan Dank AfThat's what breeding is.

2:20:03Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI think I had to make a t-shirt that just says proud pollen chucker.

2:20:08SpeakerOr maybe, and not even to be funny, but I think that the keepers, there's keepers maybe, and then there's breeders. So maybe we're talking about two different groups of people here, that people are keepers. They weren't breeding up to the standards of what we are defining. This individual has to have all of these attributes in their definition of your breeder. But then people are still keepers. Of the plant and of the medicine and of the seeds.

2:20:39Ryan Dank AfSo here's the thing, Kelly, this is not about gatekeeping. It's not about gatekeeping. Like I'm not trying to make like breeder some title that is only applied to the few. Anybody can be a breeder, right? Like that's what I was trying to show in the presentation last week. This stuff is not hard. It's just growing the number of plants required to see the patterns and understanding the patterns that are revealing themselves to you.

2:21:05Ryan Dank AfAre you doing the work? This type of stuff is not beyond anybody. An unscientifically trained monk in like the middle of the 1850s figuring it out and watching pea plants, right? It was part of the Bohemian kingdom too. This is not rocket science.

2:21:20SpeakerYeah, but I know a lot of those people, even back in the day, you know, that were passing on seeds were definitely... Teaching a lot of their youth or people of how to look for traits, what you were looking for, what you wanted to carry in your mail, what females that you wanted to carry on, what mothers that you wanted to carry on. So whether it was dabbling in keeping or breeding or then who they passed it off to, it's like, I do think that the definitions are important and I totally am with you.

2:21:55SpeakerI think that finding is really important. But at the same time, it's like the plant, Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:22:28SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:22:50Ryan Dank AfRight. But it's like that plant is associated with the experience, but that's not like, that's not, you don't build industry on that. Like, like I said in the, in the talk, we're in a multi-billion dollar industry at this point in time. Okay. And like, it really is like, you know, I made a slide about it. Your genetics, your, your germ, your, your cultivars are the IP.

2:23:17Ryan Dank AfRight? Like they are the IP. It's the basis for Marcus. Like when Marcus is making these incredible hashes, it's because those hash came from a specific plant with a unique chemical profile that allows Marcus's artistry to bring out the final product, right? That's his and is unique to his. He's not just going to go to a different market and take some random plant and try to make the same product and call it the same thing.

2:23:43Ryan Dank AfRight. And so it's like that's where the bio that's where it's like you have to tease apart the biology and the plant work from the anthropology. Right. The anthropology is the story of how to sell the seed. And that's what people are grasping onto. Right. They're grasping onto these stories to sell the product. But we've kind of lost touch with what the product is. It's like, why, you know, everybody, it's like, I ask people, they say, everybody knows what a cannabis strain is.

2:24:11Ryan Dank AfAnd I say, okay, well, what is it? What's a strain? Right? What is Blue Dream? What is OG Kush? And you, the answer that you get back is, uh, right? Like, they don't know. They don't know what the thing is.

2:24:26SpeakerAnd this is where... And then there's the scientist who doesn't know what the experience of it is. You could go to the scientist and you could be like, bro, what is Blue Dream? And they would be like, well, here's the chemical makeup of it, but they can't tell you what it makes you feel like or what kind of medicine...

2:24:41Ryan Dank AfThat's the way that the plant works. That's the way.

2:24:43SpeakerNo, I'm just saying it's not in opposition to what you're saying. It's in addition to what you're saying that we could add on both sides.

2:24:54Ryan Dank AfThe thing that we have in cannabis that we've done in all other plants. It's a collab. is we describe a plant we say this is what makes this cultivar of apple unique this is what makes this cultivar of of grape unique and different from all the others like that's what we do with plants we describe them we describe the chemical traits we describe the qualities that they give to the products that are made from those plants like we also describe the flavor and the way that it makes you feel and that now resides in

2:25:29SpeakerI actually know a ton of scientists who don't even smoke, which is really amazing. They don't. I know so many cannabis scientists. They'll go out and have a beer and they're like, no, no, I actually don't even partake in the cannabis at all, which is very interesting to me. I'm just saying, I really believe that we can't have one more important than the other because it's almost like, well, now all of the sort of pollen chucking and the people who didn't know what they were doing and weren't even breeders and they were carriers of it.

2:26:05SpeakerWell, you know, here you go. You're welcome. Now you all can start all of your IPs, you know? So that's another thought process of it. And I'm not... I just don't believe that the science or the sociology of it can be separated because the community brought the plant forward for then the science to be able to study. And now the science can bring it back to the community now.

2:26:31SpeakerThat's awesome. And now the community then can rift off of that. I just believe that we can't.

2:26:36Archive SeedsIt's music.

2:26:37SpeakerYeah.

2:26:39Archive SeedsThe issue we have in the cannabis space, and this exists in other plants too, is that we've created an elevated social value to the word breeder for some reason. Instead of it just being a descriptive term of the actions you're taking with the plant, which is what Ryan's describing. It's like everybody wants to be a breeder, but no one wants to do what a breeder does. And it's like, well, that's that's who gives a fuck if you're called a breeder, a seed maker or whatever.

2:27:07Archive SeedsLet's just describe what we're actually doing. That's that's really what I think the main point of this is, right, is instead of people getting caught up in whatever they their perceived social value of some word is, listen to what the words actually mean in terms of actions.

2:27:23Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, like, I mean, like, look, don't let's say you can't answer Luther Burbank. Name me one breeder in any other species other than cannabis. Say it again. Other than Luther Burbank, name me one plant breeder in any other species other than cannabis.

2:27:41Archive SeedsRight. I just know like the Grapery did their work, but I don't know the guy's name specifically. Yeah.

2:27:46Ryan Dank AfRight. But it's like I wasn't I didn't mean you specifically. I mean, the entire.

2:27:49Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineNo, no, that's no, but that's what I'm like. The banana cabin dish. Is that not a person's the breeder's name? Am I wrong about that?

2:28:05Ryan Dank AfThat's what I'm saying. It proves my point. It's that in the cannabis industry, we have elevated the cannabis breeder to hero status or to celebrity status for no fucking reason. It's like, it's absurd. It's absurd. And it's not based on their accomplishments as a breeder. It's based purely on anthropological reasons. Exactly.

2:28:30Archive SeedsReading has nothing to do with, technically, other than knowing the history of your plant, but that has no actionable value, really, unless you have the plants that came before it. David didn't want to be a celebrity.

2:28:44Ryan Dank AfHe didn't like the limelight. He liked being the man in the small group of people that he was comfortable with, but he didn't want to be a celebrity to the masses. He had no interest in that. He wanted to quietly do his work and be appreciated by his friends and the people that loved him. That's what he wanted. But he certainly didn't want the adoration of the masses.

2:29:11Ryan Dank AfSo it's this weird thing in cannabis where we've elevated the breeder to celebrity status. And it's just like there's no other crop for which we do that, right? To the point where none of us on the panel can even name a non-cannabis breeder. I did.

2:29:27SpeakerI named Alan Capular. He's one of the greatest breeders of all time, having to do with orchids. And I've looked at a lot of his work and he's done the lineation of all of the different groupings of plants all over the entire world to try to like group them together. He came up with a tremendous amount of tomatoes that we- Name me five more or name me like- But I know that one that I've studied.

2:29:53Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBut can you name like 50? No, no, because- Well, I would also like to- I agree with you.

2:29:58SpeakerNo, I think that what you're saying is absolutely- Which makes the story- Every single thing that what everybody is saying here is important. And I think that having definitions, now that it was really beautiful, you know, ATN said, well, now we have all these different definitions of hash. Well, why can't we have all these different definitions of people who have different interactions with the plants so that we can have more of an understanding of what people do, of where they've come from in the industry, so that I don't actually think that people call themselves breeders.

2:30:34SpeakerI'm just using this one as an example because I can think of so many different industries where this fully aligns to.

2:30:39Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineLike pedigree.

2:30:40SpeakerWith humanity. How hilarious. I just think a lot of people who make seeds, then they think that they're a breeder because that's what they think the definition of a breeder is like. They don't even know. So it's like we haven't offered the community these definitions, which I think are really important.

2:31:01Archive SeedsIt exists in all the other agriculture. Like if they were breeding, they would know what we're talking about then and why they wouldn't call it that. Because it's like them wanting to use that term in some illustrious manner for things that they're not doing tells you they're not doing it, which means that they're not what they're saying they are. It's just like by definition, the whole thing doesn't make any sense.

2:31:22Archive SeedsIt just proves that they haven't done their homework. That's all.

2:31:26Ryan Dank AfAnd that's what I'm saying. Like, I'm a guitarist. I'm not a great guitarist. I'm an okay guitarist, okay? But in the guitar world and in the music world in general, there's this real strive to do better, to be better. Like, people take such a passion about the art that they sit at home and they practice. Like, Mark's got his guitar strapped on right now. They sit at home and they practice day after day and they learn scales and they learn patterns and they're constantly pushing themselves You improve and do better, right?

2:31:57Ryan Dank AfAnd like, I see it in the home growers because I have a lot of people that message me and I work with like a very select few professional breeders that have had the humility to approach me and say, Hey, can you come in and help us do better? But in general, Thank you for watching.

2:32:38Ryan Dank AfThank you for watching.

2:32:55Ryan Dank AfBecause he's making so much damn money. Like, why are you going to put more work into something when you're already selling, you know, you're already selling it. Already successful at it, yeah. Right? And that's unfortunately the specific reality in cannabis. And I know Fletch sees it. And I know the people that go down the path to try to learn better, they all see it. It's just that the public doesn't see it.

2:33:21Archive SeedsRight. And a lot of the people, whatever you want, but what I'm doing, there's no question what that is. Right. When you look at what you're doing with the plants. Right. Yeah.

2:33:35SpeakerIt's funny how basic it is and how convoluted that it can become. Yet again, I love women for that. We're really good about it.

2:33:46Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWell, as a human being, some of the most sacred things in our world are passed down by story, you know, and that's just that's just reality. You know what I mean? So we can dismiss that as anecdotal or whatever it is. But and I and I and I

2:34:02Ryan Dank AfI've been thinking about this CBD auto, Josh. I want to help you guys develop a CBD auto so that I can get you guys, so I can help you guys go through the process.

2:34:14SpeakerYou'll see.

2:34:15Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWe just never have the resources in that sense. We do now. And that's why I'm saying, like, give thanks. Like, let's do it. You know, but I was just kind of...

2:34:25SpeakerBut go ahead, Ryan, you were going to say why.

2:34:27Ryan Dank AfWell, especially if you're buying a Valenvaris machine, but even if not, we can do it with thin layer chromatography. But going through the process will help you guys see and learn the patterns of inheritance. Right. And and going through the just going through the process with once, it's like someone walking you through a recipe. Like, I mean, cooking, I think, seems and making dishes, I think, seems overwhelming to people that have never cooked before.

2:34:56Ryan Dank AfBut you make a couple of dishes and you're like, hey, this is actually pretty, pretty easy. Right. Like it's just taking the time and having a method. And once you do that, you can just apply the method over and over to new dishes and start learning to cook. And breeding is no different. Like really, plant breeding is actually quite basic. Kevin asked me to put on that talk that I gave last week.

2:35:19Ryan Dank AfAnd he says, outline the successes and the challenges of plant breeding. The challenge is having the money to pay for the lab testing. And dedicate and the space to grow a bunch of plants and not be dependent on, holy shit, I need a whole bunch of money coming off the crop. Right? Because that's a reality that we all have. It's like when we're growing crops, there has to be like, you can't just be perpetually burning money.

2:35:47Archive SeedsYou're not breeding if you're not failing.

2:35:50Ryan Dank AfExactly. Well, you're failing more than you're succeeding, right? We call crosses, when you're making a cross in a breeding program, it's a breeding experiment. Is this cross leading to the outcome that I want? And maybe one of 10 do. Right. But like the, the breeding project is the, is all of the crosses that it takes to get to your goal. Right. And people think that making one cross is, oh, that's, I created a new strain.

2:36:17Ryan Dank AfI made a cross. I created a new strain. Right. I got my Sherblato.

2:36:23SpeakerUm, and with the Valenberis, what you're talking about really What it does is it doesn't just create validity. It also creates memory. Because when you're talking about that, like when I think about like all of our breeding that we've been doing for all of these years, we're choosing a male based off of a memory of what that male we want him to look like. What he smells like, what everything, and we can take pictures from year to year and we can take leaf prints from year to year and we can compare them, which of course we always did, always would take leaf prints.

2:37:06SpeakerOkay, this is the male that we're looking for, but we're basing that breeding from year to year without the testing that you're talking about, without all of those expenses off of some kind of a memory. And that memory can be also based in Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:37:48Ryan Dank AfNo, I'm just saying in the context of breeding, it's really good at measuring those two things. So what we can do is use that tool to quantify the traits that we're looking for, at least with respect to those two traits, CBD and THC, right? And it's like I said in the presentation last week, if you don't measure it, you can't manage it, right? It's like, If you don't have a way, if you say, I'm going to make this plant more or less of something, unless you have a way to measure that something.

2:38:21Ryan Dank AfYou're just really like it just becomes this ethereal like feeling. I'm chasing a feeling.

2:38:27Archive SeedsThat's why keeping parent stock is so important, in my opinion, because now you have your reference point to go to compare against. Like I have plants I've had for 20 years. I can tell if the breeding I'm doing currently is improving or making that worse because I can just grow another plant of that same plant and now compare it. It's not a memory. It's actually right in front of me.

2:38:48SpeakerBut also, you know, we can be taking which, you know, old botanist and breeders from from the past, which we've always done, have taken leaves, done imprints of leaves, done comparisons of leaves, you know, that's also has validity if we're talking about like, oh, well, here's the definition of a breeder. And that's defined off of what these breeders have done in the past historically. That also has some type of value if you're not keeping mothers, if you're just doing seeds.

2:39:19Ryan Dank AfNot all traits are quantitative. So there's not all traits are quantitative. We have qualitative traits and we have quantitative traits. In the Mendel example, he wasn't measuring the degree of whiteness or pinkness in the flower. It was purely a measurement of quality. Which class did it fit into? Was it the colored class or the non-colored class? Right. And so you can follow all sorts of traits without being quantitative about it, but you still have to take notes.

2:39:46Ryan Dank AfRight. And, and, and. You can reference or control. Yeah. And, and, and have a plan. Like, I think that like, A lot of the cannabis breeders, they get caught in this ADHD kind of approach where you cross two things together and then you get distracted by a, hey, look what came out in the offspring. Let's go down that path. It's perfectly okay to go down that path, but you still have to maintain your goal that you started with.

2:40:14Ryan Dank AfRight. And like I was talking about, like when we did the when we were doing the THC, we were doing those type two plants and we were trying to make the flavor class plants. We figured out that we had these six to one THC to CBD plants and these H to one THC to CBD plants. That was like a side route discovery that was accidental. It wasn't planned.

2:40:36Ryan Dank AfIt was just something that came up during our breeding program. But it didn't derail us from our breeding program. It became a separate breeding program, right? It's like also chasing down that goal. And I think in the cannabis community, I think a lot of times what happens is people, you know, they mash their gelato to their sherb plant and then they get just kind of, they're like, you know, it's like pheno stumbling.

2:40:57Ryan Dank AfIt's like, what do I get? What comes out? And they get distracted by the thing that they They found in the first generation rather than following through with the goal and the intent with which their breeding program actually started or from which their breeding program actually started.

2:41:13Collin PalmerI think that's the unique aspect of just, you know, arts called our medium in general within the plant world, right? You know, looking back and when I was younger, I don't know anyone other than Dave that was really doing large populations because of the legality of it. I mean, imagine like the space that I wish I could have had when I was doing even what I was doing.

2:41:37Collin PalmerI mean, it was a lot to be growing a few hundred plants at that time, let alone a few thousand plants, you know? So if I look back at it and I'm like more really self-reflective about it, it's like I would have died to have that opportunity. You know what I mean? Like some of these kids today have like, are so spoiled, like these facilities and these amenities and, you know, the best way to get to the perfect EC is just all at their fingertips.

2:42:06Collin PalmerYou know what I mean? And they still can't make that work.

2:42:10Ryan Dank AfThey got farms to set up and grow like thousands of plants.

2:42:13Collin PalmerYeah, but like, even that, like, to your point, it's not enough, you know, and, you know, and it's a very new idea, ideology to instill in this into the medium right now. And I actually am really appreciative of the way you're thinking about it. Because I, since I was really young, I've been thinking about it like this. But it's like, how do you get to that? Right?

2:42:33Collin PalmerAnd methodically, how do we get to there sustainably, right? To Fletcher, I think you said it well, like the cost to do this can be a lot, but it can also be a little if you're strategic, you know? And I think that's another part of like, how do we look at it so you can get the work done, but also stay alive, right? Because there's also that component, you know, because it's a balance when you're breeding And you don't have big investors like, you know, someone like Node Labs or whatever.

2:43:04Collin PalmerThat's like their whole world is to try to push this idea of genomics forward, you know, for whatever it's worth. You know, I don't know if they're doing it any justice, but I think that they're trying to, they're trying. I think in a lot of respect, I think others are too, but what's the end goal is the big question. And then does it really serve... You know, the industry to put out genetics, you know, the way that we have been historically, I don't know.

2:43:35Collin PalmerYou know, like, what do you guys think? Like, is it beneficial to be caught in this cycle or is it beneficial to be breaking through and doing the large scale pheno hunts? And like, what do you think?

2:43:49Ryan Dank AfHaving access to the seed, there's no doubt that having access to the seed has been beneficial for the movement. I think the internet was great in that. Yeah. But it also pushed us down this path where it's like the bar is set so low and anybody can sell seeds without doing the work. And I don't think that that's a good thing for the plant. Right. And I think despite that, we still continue to make gains because The few accidental lottery ticket winners that find these unique and marvelous plants that have unique scents and flavors, those things inevitably get passed around.

2:44:33Ryan Dank AfAnd that ups the average quality of cannabis over time. But it doesn't do things like... All of these people are like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they

2:45:10Collin PalmerBecause we had this conversation before and you said, I think you said it well, and maybe you can correct me here, but you do all this work and you get to that end goal, right, Ryan? And then does it respond with the world at large, right? Can it sit on the shelf and live there from retail's perspective? Because there's a testament there, right?

2:45:34SpeakerThere's certain varietals that... Have been able to sit on the shelf that it just have its own mystique behind it.

2:45:41Ryan Dank AfI mean, like, listen, we made all these incredible plants in California and none of them are on the market, right? Because they're owned by this group. It's quite protectionist and it's won a bunch of Emerald cups and it didn't, you know, like, they just haven't been able to figure out how to, to bring it to market. Um, in a way it's, In a way that's appreciated by people or whatever.

2:46:08Ryan Dank AfSo, yeah, I don't know. I don't know where we get to.

2:46:14Ryan Dank AfWe got to start with the basics. I was online the other day. I went on a forum that I never go on and someone was going on about how Some white label seed company has taken their strain and they're knocking it off and using their name. And I was like, well, why didn't you get like, why don't you get like a patent or plant breeders rights on the variety of it's if it's actually unique.

2:46:34Ryan Dank AfAnd novel, and it qualifies to be protected. Why didn't you protect it? Right? And they're like, I don't want to talk about that. And it's like, all right, you don't want to talk about that. Because you're under the idea that like, just by putting a name on a random cross makes it yours. And that's fucking stupid. Right? Like, it just doesn't. If you didn't know, you could go out to like 10 of these or 15 of these seed companies all over the states and buy a bunch of random seeds and run them in a lab.

2:47:04Ryan Dank AfThey'd all look the same, right? Because everybody's crossing the same parents together. They're literally, everybody's crossing Chem to OG, right? Or cookies or gelato or whatever. They're using the same mother plants. So in plant breeding, we have this thing we say like begets like, right? Like the offspring are quite similar to the parents, right? And so when you were crossing the same thing that Joe Blow down the street is crossing together, you're ending up with the same thing, right?

2:47:33Ryan Dank AfYou're not ending up with a different plant that's actually novel, that is able to be All of these things are protected under a PBR, under something like plant breeders rights, right? And yeah, I mean, I think it kind of gives like it should give people thought to what is ownership, like just spanking together across and putting a name on it. That's not creating something new, right?

2:47:58SpeakerCan I comment on I and I just have to say, like, for one, I am not a breeder, but I do have I have protected. Plants. I have a patented plant and I have UPOF protected plant. And part of the reason I felt entitled to do that ownership wise was I stuck with one line and I've pretty much stuck with one line for 30 plus years. Like it was never, it was like, hey, I found this plant.

2:48:28SpeakerIt resonates with me. It reminds me of my family history, the ethnography side. And I decided I'd just stick with it and stick with terpenylene dominant California old school weed characteristics and do a couple crosses and that's it. And then just work it for years and years and never to produce seeds. I've never sold a single seed in my life. I've only made crosses to select plants for myself to grow.

2:48:57SpeakerThat's been the whole goal. But I think a big part of this, I think that where it gets confusing for people is crop improvement versus the diversity in the gene pool, right? Cannabis is so diverse in chemistry And color and shape and all the other things too, that we haven't landed as an industry on what it even is. Like regulatory wise, we haven't even landed yet on what it is, what it's allowed to be even.

2:49:36SpeakerSo traditionally crops, they land, they find a place Society deems them important. And then you approve upon them to make them more resistant, more vigorous, higher yielding, higher in a specific compound or quality. But cannabis is so diverse that we haven't landed there yet. There's too many compounds. There's too much math. There's too much data. And we keep having these outliers that pop up every now and then that present a whole new, oh, now this is what cannabis is.

2:50:10SpeakerAnd I think that has a lot to do with the celebrity of breeding and the celebrity of seed companies and brands is that they can come up with a new latest thing, which you don't see in other crops. Things don't just shift over from spicy and earthy to candy gas. Like broccoli doesn't just change its entire flavor profile next season. So cannabis is so complicated in its diversity.

2:50:37SpeakerBut the thing that I think is interesting in how this ties into this conversation where it started with the work that's being done with Caleb and Dominic is that that diversity in the gene pool, the chemical diversity in the gene pool, just stick with that, not any of the other attributes, that chemical diversity came through people. It was individual people who made decisions based off of all kinds of factors, you know, money, you know, all kinds of other things that created this landscape of compounds that we all work within.

2:51:19SpeakerSo for better or worse, whether it was Doug Furr bringing Afghan into Humboldt, one guy, Right. Or whether it was David Watson bringing Skunk and Hayes and Afghan One and all the other things he brought to Amsterdam. One guy that shaped how These, the entire essentially shaped how we feel because cannabis is a drug, right? So there's something fascinating about that. And now in the modern day, it seems like, you know, cannabis is more of an aroma than a drug.

2:51:54SpeakerAnd when someone, some person, and you know, I don't really follow the celebrity thing, but I totally dig it. And I did see it in Amsterdam big time where people were Claiming a lot of credit for things that they didn't necessarily do is that they present something new. They do. They find an outlier and it's different than anything else in some way. And to me, that happened, you know, a number of times.

2:52:20SpeakerBut now we're kind of like, to Ryan's point, now we're in the point where like, we kind of did that with OG Chem and Sour. And now we're recycling the same impact that happened by those few guys.

2:52:32Ryan Dank AfAnd those were also individual guys that made... Can I just say, though, that those new things that they find, that is the novelty that's required to get a PBR.

2:52:42SpeakerYeah, yeah, no, I know. Well, no, this is irregardless of the ownership and whether or not you should be even seeking that or what the, but I'm just saying that, so there's just something inherently tied to the ethnobotany side. And it's really interesting because like Rob, Rob was so folk, Rob loves the people side. Yeah, he loves the story of the people in the plants and he wants to be there to learn about their story and their people.

2:53:08SpeakerAnd David was so focused on the plant, right? He's like, I'm here in Amsterdam doing the work. Rob's over in China. He's like on a hillside somewhere. And to me, it's because it's equally important Because these are plants and people and the people that use the plants. So like, it's not about the celebrity status or the wealth. That's I think is where we prohibition screwed this over and turned it into a cash grab for everybody.

2:53:34Ryan Dank AfI mean, everybody needs money to live, right? And I think that that's someone that gets, that's something that gets, you know, overclocked in society, right? It's like, do you have what you need or are you just chasing...

2:53:48Ryan Dank AfI'm not saying the anthropology isn't important. I'm just saying it's important to recognize that it exists and that we should be able to tease that apart from the biology. I think David is a great example and Diana, frankly. I didn't have a very close relationship with Diana until David passed, right? And David wouldn't, and I would be just so focused out on nerding on the chemistry and the geekery of the plant and getting high that she wasn't really like, that wasn't exciting for her.

2:54:21Ryan Dank AfBut in speaking to her, spending time with her since his passing, She has all the anthropological secrets of the relationships that David had, right? Like she knew the Hayes brothers better probably than David did because she spent so much time on their farm trimming the Hayes, right? And so, you know, you talk to her about the Hayes brothers or any number of other people in the industry that David and Diana came into contact throughout their lives.

2:54:53Ryan Dank AfAnd she's telling me about like, The sons and the kids and the wives of these people, right, that we all know the stories of as cannabis people, but she has all the anthropological data and study because again, it is, we are living with this plant. It's like the plant doesn't live in isolation. It's just that in our care of the plant or our individual care of these populations of seeds that we're carrying around, all individually carried around,

2:55:27Ryan Dank Afeither in the history of that seed population or in the presence of the human there's some genetic change that leads to a phenotype okay and that phenotype might be different i'm gonna say the guy's name again i've never met him but you know the white thorn rose dude um caleb's friend right from from california I want to go meet him. I think that he should be someone that is recognized in the cannabis industry way more than any fucking...

2:55:58SpeakerHe is. He's fully recognized. You know, Colin, I...

2:56:02Ryan Dank AfListen, he should be known worldwide. He is. To me, he's developed a unique type of cannabis and is adding... It's like adding a new type of wine to the world.

2:56:13Collin PalmerIt is, Ryan.

2:56:14Ryan Dank AfIt's an amazing story. Yeah, exactly. But it's also to understand.

2:56:19SpeakerAnd has been in jail, incarcerated for it.

2:56:22Ryan Dank AfRight. But it's just to understand as well that it's like that happened with him, but he didn't do it. It just happened while it was with him. Right. And so it's like it's about understanding what that thing that happened to the plant is and how can we take that thing and expand it to make it more things in the cannabis world. And also give dude his credit.

2:56:47Ryan Dank AfAnd of course he should benefit from it economically, right? Like, because he, he found and saved and preserved this thing among all the other more common things in cannabis. He found this rare thing and recognized its value.

2:57:02Collin PalmerYou really did. And you can, the moment you taste it, you're like, I remember I'll never forget it. I was at Legends and Kyle came up to me because he had it and he was like, you got to try this. And I just looked over at him. I was like, this is amazing. This is like literally, it's like, like you said, it's a new color palette. It's like someone just played a new song for me.

2:57:25Collin PalmerI'm like, that's, that was sick.

2:57:27Ryan Dank AfWell, I can see it in the labs. First time I saw the lab, my eyes popped out. And Kelly, you know, you and Josh, your Valencian dominant plant was no different than that. Right? It's like, it's this incredibly unique thing. And whether it happened in, you know, your plant breeder friend's family, or it happened, you know, in just through random pollination or whatever, it happened. And, and To me, those puzzle pieces are such important building blocks for the global cannabis experience, right?

2:58:02Ryan Dank AfThat we like, that's why I'm so nuts about this stuff. This is like, we need to fucking save these things. And you can only save them. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question.

2:58:26Ryan Dank AfI think that's a really good question.

2:58:43SpeakerYou know, or 10,000 or 1 million seed breeding hunt as opposed to like something that's really small or something that's from the past or whether you have Um, proper testing or whether you're going off of a memory. I just, I guess I'm just going to be the one to say it. Like when we're talking about breeding for me, it's about the health and wellness of the plant first and foremost.

2:59:11SpeakerAnd I believe that you can be a breeder of dogs and you could be the most important breeder of the world of dogs. And you could be called the best breeder of the world and your dogs are fucking unhealthy because you're not feeding your dogs good food. And, you know, like when Marcus had mentioned, you know, the Valenvaris, you know, does the mineral count or whatever of the plant.

2:59:34SpeakerI actually believe that that's unbelievably important in breeding. I think that as breeders, we have this incredible, and I'm not calling myself a breeder. Those people have an incredible responsibility, I believe, with the plant. Like if you're going to be a breeder, be healthy, right? And maybe it's sort of funny. I'm the one woman here on the conversation that's going to bring that out. But like health and wellness of your crop and health and wellness of what you're bringing forward, because you're not just bringing forward, you know, a certain type of varietal or something that's different than something else.

3:00:14SpeakerYou're bringing forth the health and wellness of the cannabis plant itself. So I'm always going to stand in the corner that breeding needs to come from healthy stock, whether it's a one million count or whether it's a four plant count. I want to see health and wellness number one above and beyond those You know, cannabinoid ratios and terpene ratios and esters and thiols. I want to see that that plant is healthy.

3:00:43SpeakerAnd a lot of times, you know, there's been a male. We know that that male is the one that we're always carrying through. It's got all of what we've been looking for. The leaf is matching our leaf print, everything. But I'm looking at another male right next to it. That's almost totally identical, but it's got the total vitality, health and wellness. It doesn't necessarily have everything that our lineage was going to go for.

3:01:13SpeakerBut for me, as a person who's going to be bringing my seeds into the next year and wants to bring my stock into the next year, guaranteed as a farmer, as a cultivator, as somebody who's choosing and picking these plants, a breeder, whatever you want to call it, I'm going to choose the healthier plant. Because that's what I want to bring forward in the next generation of what we're bringing forward.

3:01:38SpeakerSo it's awesome we can talk about all of these tests and different aspects of the plant, but to talk about the health and wellness of the plant, In bringing that forward, because I mean, unfortunately, I've seen a tremendous amount of breeding projects that have happened throughout the world, like the ones in Israel. I mean, they're so chemically laden. How are we even... able to see what the plant's true potential is if we're putting you know a fish in a forest telling it to swim like it's a plant that belongs in in soil so i'm just going to be that person who stands on that edge of it i'm not saying that everything isn't possible i'm not saying that you can't You know, have wonderful breeding projects and people can't do what they're doing, but I'm going to stand in the corner that breeding should come from health and wellness of the plants.

3:02:35SpeakerYeah, and a couple hundred years ago, people in Europe started breeding dogs for... Really weird aesthetic reasons and their health and well-being was secondary where the whole dog separation from the wolf was about the utility and health of the community and stuff and the dogs adapted over time and were selected over time based off of and it wasn't just how pretty you are and in a weird way modern weed is about how pretty and how How good you taste for 10 seconds, not about how good you feel for two hours.

3:03:13SpeakerYou know, it's like, that's always been a thing for me. It's like, I will chew a bitter pill easily that tastes like funky dirt and shit if it makes me feel great all day. But if it tastes beautiful and amazing and it's gone in 30 seconds or 30 minutes, I'm like, that's, why are we, why did that become the main driver of our industry? I mean, I think I know, I think I have an assumption why, because we all smoke too much weed to know the difference between good feeling and bad feeling.

3:03:43SpeakerBut it's like, that to me goes back to the whole crux of what breeding and what cannabis should be is that we're trying and where breeders have so much, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

3:04:21SpeakerLike they just, they just smell it and they like, you know, break it up and they send it to the lab and they do that. And they're like, they're not even smokers. It's like, they're not trying to even address their own wellbeing with cannabis. They're just trying to create a marketable product that they can sell. And.

3:04:36Collin PalmerWell, I think it's the, the, you know, in today's, you know, just today called today, the best way to put it, when we don't value process, we only, we value the end result of a process, right? We don't value the nuance that goes into what you're talking about that allows that all to ensue and happen. And we see it in mediums like film. We see it in art and music is a great example of it right now.

3:05:06Collin PalmerAnd that's at the heart of things, a very psychological, deep thing to understand. But it's, we expect... You know, $50 to give you the next Chemdog and, you know, the $15 a month subscription to give you the algorithm that buys you taste and culture, right? And what have you, right? So I think in this moment, I think the work that, you know, Ryan is presented to do, and I know the work that, you know, let's just call Fletch here, you're putting the work in.

3:05:41Collin Palmeris is important to highlight the process and why this is important to the end result um and i think dr mark you can relate to this as a scientist it's processes everything to you right that's how you get to your you know to your conclusion you know it's it's it's what it is but when we're we're pushed against that grain in society today it's it's important to remind Thank you for joining us.

3:06:29Collin PalmerThat's amazing. I've popped 10,000 seeds and watched the whole thing and found nothing. I mean, seriously.

3:06:36BubblemanAnd I don't think that's what Ryan is speaking against in any way. Like, I haven't heard it. I do see every time he opens his mouth, though, like on just from posting shorts with him recently, that people get defensive about what he's saying and kind of like are like, no, no, but this, this, this. And he's like, of course, but I'm just talking about this. Like, I'm reading it's like, yeah, of course, you could find something super cool.

3:07:00BubblemanYeah, you know, that doing a small cross with a small amount of seeds, but is that going to be a cultivar that can go to a larger facility where it's going to be grown on a huge population and be accessible by many, many different people instead of just the small amount of people in that groups, you know, yeah, 100% inner circle. So it's just really about specifically breeding and understanding breeding.

3:07:27BubblemanIt's like someone said, oh, so you don't think Johnny's a breeder. It's like, well, it's not that he's not a breeder. It's that if he was, he'd understand that he got a plant to do something incredible. And he might go back through breeding techniques and find that mechanism and find what did that and then maybe recreate it with other volatile organic compounds and create even more amazing novel things.

3:07:49BubblemanSo I don't think Ryan's saying, oh, yeah, that's unimportant. It's amazing.

3:07:53Ryan Dank AfHow can I help you do that?

3:07:54BubblemanYes, exactly. 100%. How can I help you do that?

3:07:59Collin PalmerI think what Ryan's presenting is more of a roadmap for those that would like to elevate what they're doing and truly learn process. And I think that's really important. That's what I'm trying to highlight here is like, I think we need to highlight process and process is invaluable because it allows you to explore and break things and pressurize things and try again. And I think that's the most important thing.

3:08:25Ryan Dank AfI'll tell you a story and Mojave knows this one because he introduced me to the guys. Mojave brought me a potential consulting client for these breeders down in California called Atlas Seeds and they were making autos and they were struggling with their potency, right? Because autos, autos are different in that you have to make the seeds before you select the plant. You can't select the plant and then decide you're going to use it to make seeds.

3:08:52Ryan Dank AfRight, because autos, they live one generation unless you're doing some fancy tissue culture stuff, which is very expensive and prohibitive. And so anyway, you needed to carry out the breeding program to chase potency or to chase cannabinoid content in a very specific Way that stump stumble breeding as people do in cannabis would just not get you there. Anyway, that was a few years ago. I think it was in like 2021.

3:09:17Ryan Dank AfThey just posted yesterday or a couple days ago that they've now got like plants coming out at like 33% THC autos.

3:09:25Ryan Dank AfRight? Because they used a breeding method and a goal, a way of approaching it that seems not the way to go, but it clearly got them there. I mean, that's, those are pretty much the most high cannabinoid content autos that I've seen.

3:09:42SpeakerAnd that's a perfect example of like, it's not about ego. It's about achieving your goals quickly and as efficiently and actually as cheaply as possible if those are your goals. And these guys had a very specific goal. They approached me and Rob. I went up there. I had a few comments just from my limited perspective. And right away, I was like, which is always the challenge of being Rob Clark's partners.

3:10:08SpeakerEveryone thinks you're another Rob Clark. It's like, no, I'm Rob's partner. I'm not a Rob or a David. I'm here to work with Rob because he's my brother and we think we can have an impact, but everyone's always like, okay, the Rob Clark guy's showing up. I'm like, okay, I'm showing up to tell you, you need to hire Ryan Lee. And seriously, and those guys, you know, they were a little bit like, okay, well, we called you, you know, we figured you guys would be the ones.

3:10:36SpeakerI'm like, yeah, well, we can help you. And we did, like right away, we could say, like, I just went up there and right away, I was like, yeah, there's a few things you guys are doing that are a little wonky. But really what you're trying to achieve is you need to talk to someone who's a real plant breeder. And man, those guys within a year already, they were so fucking grateful.

3:10:55SpeakerAnd I was just telling a friend this the other day when I first toured that We had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun.

3:11:28SpeakerIn three years, it was just like focus, focus, focus. And they achieved what they tried to do. And they actually positioned themselves fairly well in the auto flower world because that's where they wanted to be. So that's the whole point. Like if you're just, if you just want to be a guy who's selling seeds, that's fine. But if you're trying to achieve something, you know, and that's also why CRISPR is kind of exciting is because that way, like no matter what direction cannabis goes, You can kind of just attach that beneficial attribute along the line.

3:12:03SpeakerSay like you work, you know, you work 20 years on a line, you know, Colin, like the point is like, which happens a lot. We've seen it a lot. People put a lot of money and time and effort. And then the market just says, this isn't what we want. And consumers don't make informed decisions. That's not the way commerce works, right? They buy crap. They buy the wrong shit all the time.

3:12:25SpeakerSo to leave it up to them to decide what's good is insane. And to leave it up to big corporations to decide what consumers should think is good is also insane. So it's a real effort to crash through the wall of cannabis complexity when it comes to delivering

3:12:45Collin PalmerYeah, dude, I talked to one consumer and this guy told me he was 30 buys in before he found what he liked. Imagine doing that as it can, like, I can't even imagine that. I was like, wait a second. So you bought, you came into a store 30 times before you walked out with something and you're like, yes, this is it, this is the one. Like, I was just dumb, like, that's a, you know...

3:13:14SpeakerAnd it depends on the store, which is really fucked up. Like years ago when we were going to do a cannabis guide based off of a bird book. It was with Michael Backus, right? And we were going to do this idea. It was an idea like, hey, you know, we could just take like the Audubon Society book and copy that format and use it for cannabis. I'm like, yeah, that's a good idea.

3:13:36SpeakerAnd I started looking at menus at dispensaries and going, yeah, but there's different birds in every park now. And that's fucked up because that's not the way it works, right? And you can pretty much walk into any grocery store, whether it's a Vons or a Whole Foods, and you can make just about any meal. The quality might be a little bit different. So a consumer can have the experience, but a consumer can go to a shop 30 times in a row and not even see very much diversity in the gene pool.

3:14:06SpeakerAnd if they get lucky, they go to another shop across the block and they cross the street and go, holy shit, I had no idea you guys had my medicine.

3:14:13Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI think that's why the tent grow is so valuable and the home grow and that whole movement across the world. I mean, once you do find the plant, if you can just grow a few All of those plants in your tent, which is pretty like doable to have that in your home somewhere. Then you're growing your own medicine and then we all know that like you can vibe with it and that adds to the potency for you.

3:14:40Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd so I think that revolution or evolution Thank you for joining us.

3:15:01Collin PalmerI think it goes back to what Ryan was saying, like as the seed production can get more, you know, pointed and call it more consistent and predictable, you know, you might be able to go and do that, right? And do that all the time consistently. And I think that's a really good goal. Listen, I want the grower to have that experience, right?

3:15:30Ryan Dank AfWhether it comes through seed or like a registered clone registry where, you know, we know that this is this variety, this is a specific cultivar and they're shared and distributed over the world. I don't even care of like the breeders getting a royalty. It's just that people should know when they're smoking Blue Dream or Cookies or, you know, Chem 4 or whatever, one of my plants, that it's that plant, right?

3:15:56Ryan Dank AfIt's that unique thing that we chose. Because what's happening nowadays is when people take those seeds and they cross them together with something else, inevitably the seeds that you get at home are not like the parent. And so you're not actually getting the experience of the thing that we discovered. And so that's why I was looking at, that's why I came up with the artificial seeds way so long ago, was a way to get a clonal material into someone's hand halfway across the world so that they're growing the same thing.

3:16:29Ryan Dank AfRight, like that's the true exceeding rare cultivars that become the clone onlys. Like they're valuable for a reason because they have something that other weed doesn't, right? At least the good ones. And really like truly in that world, only the cream really rises to the top. Everything else is just a flash in the pan and it's there and then it's gone. Right.

3:16:55Collin PalmerYeah. I mean, well, it's interesting because we, you know, we cherish these varietals and then we'll sometimes I hear, you know, we'll talk about buckets, right? We'll be like, well, it's in the sweets category or the, you know, the blues category or whatever. How do you feel about, you know, Taking a repository approach, you know, to the genetics. And how do you how do you how do you personally view like an authentic way to name it?

3:17:24Collin PalmerBecause it's I mean, it's almost to this day, almost still like you can submit it, but it's like who's you know what I'm saying? Like, how is there the Kelly Blue Book version?

3:17:35Ryan Dank AfThere isn't yet. And it's part of the problem is that we're going to have Trevor on in the next week or two, and he'll have some good stuff to say about this. David went through, the reason I know a lot about, about the PBR world is David did a couple, right? And then that group that I was working with in California filed a series of patents. So I got to understand the whole process of how that whole world works until he had his plant patents.

3:18:02Ryan Dank AfAnd Variety registrations in the States or whatever. And then there's like the international world, which is a little bit different.

3:18:11Ryan Dank AfBut yeah, like it's all about, it's all about the financial side of that kind of stuff and protecting the rights, whether there's like big money coming off the common or not. It's about making sure that the Macintosh Apple or the Haas Avocado is that thing when it's shipped internationally. Right. But what it's about is making sure that there's no fraud to consumers, right? Is that when a consumer buys something that they're getting the thing that they're paying the extra value to buy.

3:18:42SpeakerAnd that's the biggest issues that consumers really lost. Like there's already enough There's this concept of the paradox of choice, which is when you give somebody more options, they have a harder time selecting one. They did these studies, they put a kid in a room with 50 toys and the kid just stands there and looks at all the toys for five minutes. And you put a kid in a room with one toy and they just gravitate right towards it and pick it up and start playing.

3:19:07SpeakerAnd so cannabis has got all this diversity and people go through all these dispensaries and buying all these different things and there's that, and then it's all been renamed. So you think you land on what you like and it's not even what it is. And so the trademark conventions or the lack of trademark conventions really are a huge stumbling block and dispensaries would rename things, growers wouldn't rename things.

3:19:30SpeakerA guy would buy something from a grower and rename it before he got to the dispensary and then the dispensary would rename it when they sold it. That's fucked up.

3:19:40Archive SeedsThat is the majority of the product in the marketplace today is exactly that.

3:19:44Ryan Dank AfWell, let's be honest about it. To the consumer, it never mattered because they got high. Right. Like in the end, most often, right? Most often they were satisfied with what they bought. But it's it's for me, it's not about that. It's about can can we do better? Can we offer this incredibly snobby experience that we're all sitting around talking about?

3:20:03Archive SeedsWell, I mean, there there was that experience. That's why we're all sitting here is because we all did find those little markets, that little niche where you could get some real sour, some real chem dog or some real Albert Walker or whatever. And now your little group feels special because And then, you know, everybody tries to preserve that experience. I mean, there is that part of the market and that's what drives the majority of what the culture is.

3:20:30Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, and that's like, yeah.

3:20:34Archive SeedsThose authentic varietals are exactly where the culture comes from. Almost everybody's experience dates back to some cultivar.

3:20:46Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, yeah, it was just really what's available. I think there's a lot.

3:20:50Archive SeedsOtherwise you're just in wheat, you know.

3:20:53Ryan Dank AfThere's a lot in set and setting too, but I, you know, I just, having seen all the chemical diversity that we can do and the different flavors. It's just such a bummer for me that we're at legalization and both home growers and retail customers can't walk into any store anywhere in the world and buy the diversity that exists within the plant. Right, like even like a good representative sample of the diversity.

3:21:22Ryan Dank AfYou're going in, you're buying a bunch of names with a THC number. That's it. There's no, there's no two, there's barely any two to ones. There's certainly no six to ones or five to ones, anything like potentially useful in that, you know, ratio thing. Half the flavors don't exist on any, any given market. More than half the flavors don't exist in any given market.

3:21:46Archive SeedsThat's just what happens to a market when you industrialize its production. I mean, that's really all it boils down to. It's the same for every other ag crop. There's no diversity in apples that you get to pick at grocery stores. There's like 20 main varieties and six of them account for the majority of it.

3:22:08Archive SeedsSame for cannabis because we allowed industrialized production. The thing that gave us a lot of what we have is because there were so many people doing it in small gardens that were isolated from each other. And that's kind of what created the diversity that we have. Not that that was ideal by any means, but that's what we were served was What would survive isolated through prohibition if it wasn't affected by industrialized production yet?

3:22:41Archive SeedsBecause now what we have is instead of a thousand growers growing a thousand different varieties or cultivars, we've got, you know, a hundred growers growing 90% cultivars that come or varieties that come from the same family. So... Yeah.

3:22:59Collin PalmerAnd, and, you know, a lot of growers that are out there that I know on, you know, even on the traditional side, they want to run two things and that's it. And it's gotta be pre-sold and that's it. And it's just the way it is. And there's not a lot of time throughout the year, you know, when, especially when you have a small garden, you got what, four times, you know, if you're small, cause I, you know, I mean, there's an interesting perspective is think, uh,

3:23:27Archive SeedsYou know, just 20 years ago, the maximum amount of a certain cultivar that was probably in the market in the world was maybe what, a hundred pounds a month or a couple hundred pounds a month? I mean, that would have been a big grower with their own varietal that they're pushing. And that was that now you have, We have millions of pounds of the exact same genetics being grown by tons.

3:23:51Archive SeedsYou know, the the diversity is just because of industrialization, in my opinion.

3:23:57Collin PalmerSo the incestuous nature of it.

3:23:58Archive SeedsAll right.

3:23:59Collin PalmerLike there it's it's a competition created with them. Right. Do you think? Yeah, but like so here's a different take on it. And, you know, this is just for the sake of the conversation. Like if I'm a if I'm a cultivator and I see someone growing Let's just use your right, like rainbow belts, right? I'm going to want to grow something different because perhaps, or maybe I'm going to want to run your 3.0, right?

3:24:24Collin PalmerSo I can differentiate myself away from them. But that's not necessarily the mentality that most cultivators take. They're starting to.

3:24:34Archive SeedsI mean, it just seems like that's your IP. If you're a grower, you're if you don't have anything other than just chasing the the race to the bottom, if you don't have some sort of IP that your consumer resonates with.

3:24:51Ryan Dank AfRight. So the problem is, yeah. It's funny because I, listen, I see this whole, this whole thing falling apart, not falling apart, but the way that it's playing out in legal markets in Canada and Europe and also in the States. And it's like everybody, some growers, what they need to do is grow. They don't need to be running like phenomes, right? Like that's insane. They need to be partnering with someone that's a good nursery supplier.

3:25:19Ryan Dank AfThe other side of the equation is I know nurseries here in Canada and they're selling the same clones to everybody, right? And that also doesn't help the marketplace because it doesn't help. You're not helping your client get differentiated in the marketplace. You're helping them become the same as all the other guys that are also already not selling their weed, right? So it's, you know, like I said, I said in my talk, I was talking to this one company and they're like, oh yeah, we run four seeds every crop because we're always looking for something new.

3:25:49Ryan Dank AfAnd I was like, what? Like that's like, can you imagine like your whole plan for success for your life or retirement was buying four lottery tickets a week? You know what I mean? Like that's a pretty grim way to run a business or plan for your future in terms of IP. But people, you know, people think that it's like all these seed companies that are fraudulent. They think that they're real.

3:26:14Ryan Dank AfI have, I mean, I was at a conference the other day, you know, like I said, two weeks ago. And I had all sorts of people coming up and telling me stories about the seeds that they bought. And I was just like, ooh. Like, you spent money on stuff that you have no idea is just totally a sucker's play. And they believed the story from the guy that was telling them the seeds.

3:26:35Ryan Dank AfRight? And I was just like, damn.

3:26:38Etienne FontanAnd you can't convince them otherwise because they've been told that's what it is, right?

3:26:41Ryan Dank AfNo, and I like, you know, I've got varieties in the market or that I'm trying to license to people. And it's like the licensing fee is pretty much covered by the savings that they have in labor costs associated with trimming and harvesting, right? It's like, they're like, no, we're going to buy like, you know, these $300 seeds and run 10 of them in a, you know, it's like, it's just the time that you waste and analytical testing and all that stuff.

3:27:09Ryan Dank AfIt's just like, man, There's better ways to be doing this stuff. Anyway, I don't know. Maybe it's like the newest part of the industry that hasn't developed yet.

3:27:16Archive SeedsHere's what it's become. It's a retail marketplace. So these companies that are buying genetics, let's say the people that are good growers but shouldn't be investing into hunting and then the people that are giving them their varieties or producing them for them. Those growers are not just looking for a good genetic. They're looking for good genetics and marketing that already exists. Demand that's already been created for that genetic.

3:27:46Archive SeedsSo it's not about just breeding. And this is where we kind of get back into the conversation about the breeders being put on a pedestal when it's really the varieties. Like you said, we can't name any breeders outside of But we can name lots of varietals of different or cultivars of different varieties of apples. You know, we all know five different kinds of apples, the Cosmic Crisp and all these other things they have.

3:28:15Archive SeedsSo, you know, those are a lot more recognizable to the consumer. And that's where also what Mojave was boiling down to is the lack of trademark productions, which is what I've always kind of harped about is that really you don't, in the retail marketplace of cannabis the recreational the the patents and the and everything don't do you as much good as a trademark actually does and the trademark is really your brand's promise to consumers that they get the same experience no matter where they go and that's actually kind of ties into everything that we're talking about right so fletch that and it's interesting because that's why that's why og is og

3:28:55SpeakerThat's why it was called, that was why it was named OG. So back to the whole like you want to grow something that already has a demand. So when Kush was first given out within our community and people got it and they knew that they had a brand, it's like they had a franchise. They just opened the door and people just walk on in because you're already a brand, there's already a demand.

3:29:20SpeakerAnd then, but some of those people weren't good growers. Some of those people weren't producing the fire. They just were a shitty McDonald's. You know what I mean? It's like, oh yeah, we got a brand and we're just gonna, you know. So then Josh and that group of people said, no, we're gonna put OG in front of Kush to connotate who grew it That it isn't just because you have Cush doesn't give you an automatic right to charge $6,400 a pound, which people were.

3:29:52SpeakerAnd like, no, so we threw, they threw OG in front of it. And that way we knew. And in the beginning, like literally, I mean, they'd say like, is this OGers or not? Which meant it's not about OGers. Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:30:21SpeakerFor better or worse, shaped the next 20 years of all the breeders and plant sellers and the hype and everything. It was like something weird happened. Those gassy notes got into the gene pool and everyone felt like all I got to do is get the cut. And then I too have the franchise that I can just...

3:30:39Archive SeedsBecause it was very consistent, right? Like back then, very few people were growing seeds, much less growing or breeding anything. So if you had OG and you were known as having OG, it was going to be the same in LA or the same in Oregon or the same in New York. If you were working with the right people, right? And that's where the culture, the whole secret culture, that's where it was.

3:31:06Archive SeedsYou would know that you're talking to the right people in New York if they've got the real OG that you know is the real one from LA. It's not some Fugazi one.

3:31:16SpeakerWell, no, no, it's not about the plant at all, though. That's the point. It has OG has nothing to do with genetics. So now when people say all the different OGs out there, what they're talking about is a different Kush plants that were distributed by Josh and his crew and Matt Bubba. But the OG moniker that was put in front of it was an indicator of who grew it and where it came from.

3:31:37Archive SeedsYeah.

3:31:38SpeakerSo no, but I'm saying once the plant went out, it never should have gone out with an OG tag that it just a

3:31:43Archive SeedsI understand, but what I'm saying is the reason that it resonated further, right, is because of that, right? Exactly. It's because there was a consistency at that time because we didn't have so many fakes out there. Without so many fakes, people got the experience in other places and it actually was the same when they went to LA and they're like, bro, that's the same shit, you know?

3:32:09Ryan Dank AfYeah, the problem is that there was all these fucking losers in Canada selling stuff that wasn't OG Kush called OG Kush.

3:32:17Archive SeedsAnd that's what we still have the problem with today with all these varieties and that's what you always see me harping on people about is like,

3:32:26BubblemanWell, that's why it was nice to go to dinner with Josh and the Arcana Boys. And Caleb was there and my whole crew from Colorado. We got to smell jars of just the most beautifully expressed flowers. OG being one of them for sure. I have not wanted to interrupt the conversation because it's been going seemingly for about an hour and a half. But I have been trying to do this giveaway from the press club.

3:32:54BubblemanI don't know what I'm giving you. I don't know what they're giving you. I should say it could be a bubble spoon. It could be some press bags. It could be some stickers. I have no idea. It could be all those things. I don't want to commit. I just want to commit that if you win this, you will be getting something from the press club. I've said it before.

3:33:10BubblemanIt's really simple. Send me an email if your name gets picked and immediately let me know through email that it's you. And then I'll text you a sentence to say in the chat. And that just is an easy way for me to connect your name to the email that I receive because YouTube names aren't always Exactly the emails that I received. You guys will be able to get back to this conversation immediately as well.

3:33:34BubblemanBut I feel like I've been trying to give press club stuff away for months and haven't pulled it off. So today, Sunday, February 1st, we're doing it. As you can see, I have 125 entries. Choose a winner. So I'm going to choose a winner. Boom, bam, boom. Fictitious Freedom. Dude, Fictitious Freedom just won.

3:33:55Etienne FontanHow cool is that?

3:33:58BubblemanYeah, for real. All right, fictitious. Send me an email at bcbubbleman at iCloud.com and we'll sort this out. In the meantime, you guys can get back to this conversation. Sorry for the interruption. Thank you to the Press Club for sponsoring and supporting the listeners with some cool giveaways.

3:34:17BubblemanThey sent me those bubble spoons, but I ended up giving them all away. They are kind of, for me, the greatest gift to give people. I was giving them to people that don't even make bubble. They're just like, yeah, it's my mac and cheese spoon now. It's amazing. It's just a really awesome, big-ass spoon. I use mine to make bubble. I used mine to make bubble. I ended up giving it away, but maybe you'll get a bubble spoon.

3:34:43BubblemanI can't make any promises, but I can say that fictitious, you should send me a email.

3:34:51BubblemanBC Bubble Man at iCloud.com. He's in there all the time, so I'm not worried about him not being a real dude. Sometimes you don't know. Like the first guy that won ever was Ben Inya. Ben Inya. I'm like, Ben Inya. He's never gonna die. You know what that is, right? Like, oh shit, I didn't actually have... Some pretty powerful dabs here. Go ahead, ATN.

3:35:15Etienne FontanI'm going to continue the conversation. It's also interesting, you know, culturally is because the OG also simultaneously came out of L.A., but it also was, you know, came through rap, through original gangster. And so there was a connotation through the culture that kind of came Thank you so much for joining us.

3:36:02Etienne FontanIn California, how Blue Dream is, sells twice the amount than any other cannabis in California. It got me to thinking, right? Because, you know, aspects of the culture from being traditional, from being a dispensary guy, also being a guy who looks at it later, Colin. Why is, you know, why do you think it's, it's, or why would y'all think that would be the case? Is it because we know that there is limited genetic access in California, right?

3:36:34Etienne FontanYou have to, you can only get certain licensed things through licensed dealers. So there's only limited access to clones and genetics. So is it limited to genetic selection as well as selection choice, right? And, you know, is it just due to its terpene profile? It seems to regulate with a large swath, right? We were talking the other day how, you know, Blue Dream's been around 15 years, right?

3:37:00Etienne FontanSo it's been around. People either like it, hate it, one way or the other. It's people who have a love-hate relationship with it. It's one of those things. However... Just looking at statistics, and we know that statistics can be skewed, and I was looking at these concepts of how and why, because I see limited access of genetics through my dispensary, through limited access of limited genetics of seeds, as well as the few clone producers and what they produce.

3:37:32Etienne FontanThat's kind of, you know, where my thought gravitates now after looking at OG's history, whereas Blue Dream's a little more amalgamous out there in the world. And why do you think, you know, that seems to be the dominant paradigm currently? Or any thoughts on the matter or anybody give a fuck?

3:37:54RyanBlue Dream is, what I noticed when we were doing the classification, and even when Josh and the boys from SC did it on the perps and the dreams or whatever they've called it, Blue Dream has essentially the same terpene profile as Ken's GDP and Granddaddy Perps, or the other perps plant. I can't remember what the other perps plant was in California. Maybe it was the perps. But they're all in that same family, right?

3:38:25RyanAs is Skunk One. It's kind of just like, you know, I think it's one of the sweeter, more wild type cannabis popular, you know, scents that you'd come across if you're going through, you know.

3:38:39SpeakerBut Ryan, wouldn't that mean that, I mean, Blue Dream in terms of effect is very different than GDP, right? And I remember that when you guys did that work. And to me, that really points to that there's other things that contribute to affect an aroma that we weren't.

3:38:56RyanYeah, there was, well, we had two different Blue Dreams. And they were very similar. They both came from up in the same area. But they had the same terpene profile, except the dominant terpenes were flipped. And I remember being up on Spyrock and they were talking about how they had these two different blue dreams. One was a really thin leaf that they could use All right, thanks for joining us.

3:39:22RyanWe'll see you next time.

3:39:42Archive SeedsThey're not going to like most consumers that love GDP will hate Blue Dream. So whether they have the same profile or not, or whatever the other characteristics are, whether it's visual, cute or otherwise, those consumers don't cross over very much at all. Yeah, that's that's the experience from the retail side, at least.

3:40:04SpeakerLet's remember the quote. What is the quote? I'll probably bastardize this, but it's that if you like Blue Dream, you don't know anything about cannabis. But if you hate Blue Dream, you don't know anything about cannabis.

3:40:15Archive SeedsYeah, exactly. It was something like that.

3:40:17SpeakerIt's something weird. And to me, Blue Dream checks boxes for cultivators first. And that's always the big one.

3:40:24Archive SeedsExactly.

3:40:24SpeakerEveryone's always like, man, this is a grower's plant, right? So farmers like plants that farmers can grow. But it's not candy gas in a candy gas market, for one. It's got a fucking fantastic name that people have heard for decades and want to try. And I've worked with groups in multiple markets. And Blue Dream is very popular all over the country, like as a one plant. And it's because, to me, it's because it, for better or worse, it works.

3:40:57SpeakerAnd it gives, it's kind of like working class weed. It's not too sleepy. It's not too stimulating. It's not racy like a haze. It's not sleepy like a heavy Afghani. But too stinky. Yeah, not too stinky, not too, it's kind of like a Budweiser of, you know, it just fits in.

3:41:14Archive SeedsWhy are Granny Smith apples the most widely produced or whatever? And it's like, well, it's exactly what you said. It's the exact intersection where the demands of the consumer meet the demands of the cultivator, right? And the plant is, that's where Blue Dream is, right at that point. Right? Where the economics make sense for both the grower and the consumer to meet the needs of the consumer at the price they want and the cultivator can supply it with that plant.

3:41:44SpeakerAnd I think that's why the work that Ryan was doing with Napro was so important is because I think before you can create that real intersection, you have to look at the chemistry of the plant to look at what are the desirable compounds that we're trying to bring to the people. And then you try to bring those to the people as efficiently as possible in growers varieties.

3:42:07SpeakerBut like at some point, you have to have those lanes For the consumer, because at the broad end of the spectrum, cannabis is almost two different drugs. Like in the hybrid world, it really gets muddy. But at the broad, broad end, there's one medicine that says, don't take this if you're prone to anxiety. There's another one says, don't take this and operate heavy machinery, right? They're two different drugs.

3:42:31SpeakerAnd then there's a lot in between where it crosses over. But for like... At the very beginning of this whole world, we should have addressed that for the consumer's needs at the very least. And then all the other type two, type three, all the way up to type five stuff that is like, look, don't even smoke THC. But like if we had done that and create lanes for consumers, then you can wiggle in and out of those lanes with aroma and all kinds of other stuff.

3:42:57Archive SeedsBut the lanes were the cultivars. That's how it had basically designated itself.

3:43:05SpeakerFor 10 years or so, it felt that way for a while. For 20 years, I'd say.

3:43:10Archive SeedsEarly 2000 to 2015, 2020. Yeah, I agree. And then now it's all back to muddled again, kind of like it was before that era because of, in my opinion, mostly just fraud in the marketplace. Hype. Hype and fraud.

3:43:28BubblemanYeah. Yep. Good old hype and fraud brought to you by Hash Church. 2026. Well, we're smashing the hype and the fraud.

3:43:40Archive SeedsExposed by, not brought to you by.

3:43:43BubblemanThank you. I was just being silly, but yeah, holy shit. It's just crazy.

3:43:49Etienne FontanWell, it's just, it's part of our history, right? It's part of what we're watching happen before us. It's been fascinating. Just Blue Dream alone, right? It's just fascinating how polarized people can get just immediately around. I mean, look at people's reactions in chat, you know? I mean, they're visceral.

3:44:07RyanI mean, people have, you know, it's the PBR of, you know, but people like... Let me tell you, the other Blue Dream that we had, the sibling, it must have been a sibling because it had... Thank you for joining us.

3:44:38RyanWith less myrcene as opposed to myrcene dominant with less pining. By what percentage? Flipping those two terpenes, I don't remember the exact numbers. I'd have to go back and look. Just flipping the ratio of those two terpenes made a big difference in the effect of the plant. Pining is one that really, there's not enough pining varieties in my opinion. It's one terpene that's like, It really intersects with THC well, in an energizing way, right?

3:45:14RyanIn a kind of focused way. Agreed. So it's a shame that there's not more pionine varieties around.

3:45:22BubblemanYou don't seem to lose the keys when the pionine is present.

3:45:26RyanIt just, yeah, it just, it has more of a stimulating kind of clearing effect, whereas myrcene kind of, it always kind of gives me the, The thud kind of down brain squash feeling. The foggles. Foggles for sure.

3:45:41SpeakerWhich is the weird thing with that Cambodian plant, Ryan. It's dominant, completely dominant in myrcene, completely absent of terpenylene, super high in THC, feels like it's 30% THC, smokes like a 15%er. It's 30? That's a 30% THC smoke. And you won't lose your keys either. And you won't lose your keys. And it smokes like and it smokes like a stimulating yet slightly relaxing, not edgy and racy like a haze.

3:46:13SpeakerBut to me, it was such an eye opener, which was like, yes, mere scene is mere scene and it does what it does. But there's so much other to that Afghan profile, whether it's thials or indoles or whatever the fuck it is. There's this plant is a myrcene dominant high THC plant that has no Afghan aroma attributes to it. And it has very little Afghan attributes to the effect either, which makes me feel like maybe there's some of that stuff shaping the effect more than we thought.

3:46:46SpeakerThat myrcene is the indicator of Afghan, right? But then there's all the other stuff that we weren't testing for, don't understand, or just all the above. It's so complicated. That's my point. It's just so fucking complicated to deliver this to a consumer. And it's subjective. Dumb it down to the point where the industry has already figured it out. So the consumer can just, like what you're doing, look at the color on the label.

3:47:14SpeakerYou're a blue person. Buy the blue weed. You know, like some way to simplify to get them closer to what they're trying to get out of cannabis is Which can be many things. Like I like to smoke different types of weed at different types of the day, you know. So it's weird because I really do feel like it is an industry thing that has to figure out.

3:47:37SpeakerAnd before industry, and we didn't get any support from ag, you know, we're not an ag product.

3:47:42Archive SeedsSo I think specific cultivars is still the best method to stratify it, like you're saying. Because it's just like, look at the grocery aisle, right? It's all varieties of, or cultivars of fruit. It's not, oh, you like the orange flavored mangoes, get these four kinds. It's like trying to stratify it into lesser amounts. I think the easier thing is where we started in the more modern situation, which is, Named cultivars and trademarks, I think, are the main thing preventing us from having this consistency in the marketplace.

3:48:23RyanWell, I mean, that's that's kind of why I keep saying these like the plant, the plant, the pad, the plant patent, sorry, is is it gives you all that stuff like part of the registration process is you get the name. For you, boss. No, for the for the USPTO. Well, you can't use the name in Congress.

3:48:44Archive SeedsIt's not for recreational though, right, is my point.

3:48:48SpeakerNo, you can't use it for interstate commerce. It's still... There's no trademark cannabis that can move from state to state at all. Well, there's no cannabis that can move from state to state.

3:49:00RyanThat's why you can't have a trademark.

3:49:01Archive SeedsThat's what we're getting at is that holding cultivars back from having this market dominance for whatever it is, is because you don't have trademark registration because we don't have interstate commerce and federal registration.

3:49:16RyanYou don't need the trademark though because the naming rights go along with the registration process of the plant.

3:49:22SpeakerYeah, but you can't, there's no name.

3:49:24RyanIt'll be great if you file it in Canada. No, no, look, look, look at the USPTO, like Lemon Crush is patented.

3:49:31Ryan Dank AfIt's called, the patent's called a patent called Lemon Crush.

3:49:35SpeakerBut I know, but Ryan, that's in the patent application, but it's not defendable in court. If someone else sells another Lemon Crush, you can't hit them for trademark violations. Anyone can call any plant they want Lemon Crush and get away with it. So that's the issue. Anybody can call it sour diesel and there's no recourse.

3:49:53Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, and good luck trying to enforce such a patent. Good luck.

3:49:58Archive SeedsThat's my point.

3:50:02BubblemanDamn, Dr. Mark coming in just on 10 after being so quiet like all day. Just came in on fucking 10, bro. That was amazing. I got headphones on. I was awake.

3:50:17Archive SeedsBut yeah, that's the biggest thing holding back, in my opinion, breeders, cultivators, you know, people that are making selections and branding and products that are branded and consistent and not being ripped off and defrauded and everything else. And that's how you, that's the only way I'm aware of to give a consistent experience to the consumer because the consumer today at least has Growing up on this, the clone should be the same no matter where I go.

3:50:47Archive SeedsSo like even sisters from the same, even, you know, well-bred line will likely be too different for a lot of consumers, not the average consumer, but for the 10 or 20% that gives a shit or 5%, whatever percentage you want to call it. But that's that five or 10% is where actually people that are passionate about the plant are going to have an actual business. And in the rest of the market, it's going to be a race to the bottom for being whatever the best blue dream is.

3:51:17Archive SeedsIt could even be blue dream from seed from some highly bred consistent seed variety yields way better. And that's what the best selling variety in the world is. But no one's going to own blue dream at that point. And at the end of the day, what most large corporations are going to want is to have proprietary IP that has a discernible consumer for in a I guess.

3:51:42Archive SeedsJoint puff.

3:51:57Archive SeedsBut that's going to be the toughest thing for cultivators, in my opinion, to overcome, right? Because it's like, you know, let's say a cultivator does invest in breeding their own variety. They find it, they try to produce it only themselves, and then everybody just rips the name off, grow it poorly, sours the trademark, essentially the brand value in the marketplace, and they never really get it off the ground.

3:52:21Archive SeedsAnd that is the reality for a lot of good varieties these days. They're good. They just get killed before they even make it.

3:52:33Etienne FontanWhat are you smoking on, Fletch?

3:52:37Archive SeedsIt's 111G, which is lemon peel crossed with Blue Dream cookies. So I'm smoking Blue Dream right here.

3:52:52Archive SeedsBut that, you know, a lot of interesting combinations like that. It's just, you know, explore what may or may not come out of it. You find a good, good selection from something and hybridize it and see what comes out. And this thing, it almost smells and tastes like hairspray, kind of like a blueberry hairspray. It's very astringent, kind of.

3:53:15Etienne FontanAquanet-ish undertones.

3:53:17Archive SeedsVery Aquanet-ish. It's making your soul glow. Dude.

3:53:22BubblemanYou're making your soul glow.

3:53:26Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's the one thing I think about when I look at your hairstyle, Fletch, is hairspray.

3:53:35Archive SeedsLet it shine. I might need to get some, like, wax and, you know, polish.

3:53:44Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's a turd for that.

3:53:47BubblemanGet it buffed out. Bunch of bald white males on this show.

3:53:56Archive SeedsBut yeah, I think that's the reality for cultivars is that we have to move in a direction where we give breeders and cultivators an incentive to actually invest in that space. That's the toughest part right now. And I think that's why we see so little innovation is things get ripped off too quick for anybody to monetize it in a manner that makes doing the kind of work that Ryan really advocates for, which I totally believe is you should use every tool available to you.

3:54:29Archive SeedsThe difference is a lot of what we need in cannabis seems to be qualitative base and not as much quantitative. But using quantitative to support your qualitative assessments is really the key to doing the best work. And so it's simply not getting enough of that because it's difficult to monetize it at a level that justifies the time and expense that type of innovation would require.

3:54:59RyanThank you for watching.

3:55:24RyanThat the people that are advocating for these bad breeding practices are just not growing enough plants to even be able to see the spread, right? Exactly. Like if you're growing a tent worth of plants, it's like you're on 12 plants or 20 plants. It's like you really can't see, you know, all the patterns that you need, right? To see, to be able to understand how a trait is inherited or a set of traits are inherited.

3:55:49Archive SeedsQualitative is sufficient to get to find a plant you can work with. But without quantitative, it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to kind of recreate that magic without having the exact plants that you started with. Yeah, well, even when you understand the quantitative, you actually can dig into what you have and work it. Thank you for watching.

3:56:32RyanThank you so much for joining us.

3:56:57Archive SeedsIt's literally like going to the ticket counter and going, should I buy 100 tickets of one type of lottery ticket or should I buy 10 of 10 different ones? And it's essentially the same odds to a certain degree given if all the tickets have the same odds of winning in the first place, right? So it's really just you're fucking around until you've found something or have figured something out.

3:57:26SpeakerAnd bag seed, why bag seed was, has created so many impactful cultivars is because someone already selected that female for being great and grew it over and over again. It was already a winner. It was a winner. It wasn't a hunt. It was a lucky gem that popped out of a winner and you just put it in the ground and Luckily, you got something that was even better.

3:57:48SpeakerBut it wasn't about, you know, all the OG, the sour, the chem, all of it, you know, probably Blue Dream, probably almost everything that's on the market came from these small populations. But it was really that winner. First, that's the whole point, right? On the shoulders of giants, outliers.

3:58:07RyanI like that.

3:58:09BubblemanLet's maybe potentially end it on that note. That was a solid four hours. Really good conversation. I do have a haze panel planned here in the near future. I got a couple of people of people. If there's other people you think I should be inviting, just hit me up on my email, bcbubbleman at iCloud. But I want to do a narrow leaf drug cultivar haze sort of special where we just talk about haze for four hours.

3:58:37BubblemanI think it is due for certain. So that's coming up here in the near future. And as always, I wanted to thank the Press Club for being so generous with giveaways and such. Stoked for fictitious freedom to have won today. And thank you to Puffco as well. I mean, shit. Well, you guys are keeping us laced up and puff these things every which way I go, everywhere I am.

3:59:03BubblemanEnjoyed them on Whistler Mountain, Blackcomb Mountain, actually, the other day. Quite lovely. As well as sitting on my couch. This is the ultimate couch tool right here when you're laid back and you don't want the pipe turning at an angle or anything. I'm telling you, this Gandalf pipe is the one. So shout out to those guys for lacing it up. Keeping us all, well, really mainstreaming dabbing is in a big way.

3:59:25BubblemanI feel like the more people get into appreciation of flavors and effects, the more our conversations will have meaning and potentially reason to exist further along than our own insanity. But thank you to the viewers who watched. We had almost 300 people watching for the full show. Really appreciate that. Nice to see you, Mojave. Thanks for popping in. I know that you don't always have the time, as well as you, Fletch.

3:59:53BubblemanYou don't get to make it every time, so it's appreciative. Thanks to Caleb for showing up early and starting us off with that very interesting graph on Indian charas and Dr. Mark coming in and tripping out on the CBC and Ryan for his in-depth breeding conversations again today. And of course, Etienne and Colin and geez, everyone. Thank you so much. Ash Church, another episode next week, season 12, episode six.

4:00:19BubblemanWe'll be here. Peace out, everybody. Peace out, everybody. Bye, everybody.