Dr. Grinspoon, Dispensary Models and Altitude Effects on Cannabis

0:01SpeakerHey everybody, welcome to Hash Church, episode 43.

0:05BubblemanYou guys believe that we're still going after 43 episodes? I personally can completely believe it. I have a feeling we'll be going after several hundred episodes. And of course, I always got to thank you, the people who have been making Hash Church what it's really all about. Thank the panel for coming in every week. It's pretty huge. People coming in and sharing their time. And it's pretty awesome.

0:32BubblemanAnd I think I'm going to start the day, even though there's only one viewer in the room right now and we're just starting, I would definitely like to give props to Tricom Heavy Extracts for the beautiful gifts. They sent me some really nice t-shirts and I appreciate it. I do, I do, I do. I do appreciate it. Here we go. Who we got? Who we got? I love it.

1:05BubblemanEvery morning at ATN that you come in first, I have everything blocked so I can't see it because I'm sending out the links and I'm sending out the emails. So it was pretty cool to have that. Brian Gilbert.

1:22BubblemanHello, Brian. What's up, Mark? Hi, Brian.

1:27SpeakerWhat's going on? Not much. I got a pretty bad connection, so I might end up just leaving if it's that bad.

1:39BubblemanNow, refresh my memory as to who you are, because I don't remember even sending you the link.

1:47SpeakerOh, I just grabbed the link. I was on, like, way back when this first started a while ago.

1:54BubblemanWow, so where did you grab the link?

2:00SpeakerI think I grabbed it from your Facebook because we're friends on Facebook.

2:03BubblemanSo I put this Google link on my Facebook today?

2:08SpeakerI think so. Jesus.

2:10BubblemanOh boy. Thank you. I guess that's going to change a lot. Did you get it off the Bubble Man Facebook or the Marcus Gary Richardson Facebook?

2:18SpeakerYour personal one. So maybe did you mean to put the other one like for the chat in?

2:23BubblemanYeah. I did. It's all good, but thank you, and it's nice to see you. I snuck in. Now I'm just focused on finding my page. No, I put in YouTube, man. That's so strange. I don't know how you got in on this chat.

2:36SpeakerYeah, it was really weird. It was like I kind of didn't anticipate it, but that's funny.

2:42BubblemanWell, you're one of the first. You can come hang out for a little while. I do have a big panel coming on today. I sent the link out to 20 people, but fuck, welcome, dude. Share a bowl with us.

2:52SpeakerDude, for sure. I'm down.

2:54BubblemanOne of the OG hashers right there. And look, James Burkaw. Looks like I do have this link up on my Facebook page. What a hilarious... It won't show me on my Facebook page the link. When I go to my Facebook page, my personal page, it doesn't show me anything other than... It's strange. Oh well.

3:17Etienne FontanWant me to go look?

3:20BubblemanNo, let's just have a puff and go with the flow.

3:24Etienne FontanFuck yeah. Good to see you, buddy. How was your week?

3:27BubblemanHi, Mark. It was good. It was good. Welcome, Mr. Scaldone. Mr. Scaldone.

3:37Etienne FontanSo starting off today, carrying on from Chalice, got to meet the original Bud Squisher last week, and starting off this morning with some nice Earth OG rosin. Kind of ended up on me, unfortunately, due to the heat, but... Gotta send the original Bud Squishers some love and starting off Hash Church formally.

3:59BubblemanThat's awesome. You know, funny enough, and I never squish Bud. I squished some Bud yesterday. Just the tiniest little bit. Just enough for a little dab, you know?

4:14SpeakerWhy? Because you're always squishing Hash?

4:16BubblemanBecause all I squish is Hash, yeah. I mean, I mess with Bud mostly to make Hash. Uh, and then, uh, you know, most of the hash I have is pretty, pretty killer, so it was hard to find some hash that I didn't, that wasn't killer, but I ended up finding some nice, uh, dry sift, a little bit of dry sift here that I found, and some other different varieties.

4:41BubblemanAnd I squished up! It was fun! Little raw, what is that called, that test? The roshed?

4:52Etienne FontanYou're muted. I don't know if you were talking. It's a Rorschach test.

4:55BubblemanRorschach test. The classic psychological what do you see in this pattern test. I see a dab. I see many dabs.

5:07SpeakerIt's a killer. But I ended up finding some nice drawings.

5:12BubblemanWe'll just mute that up. James, we're going to have a whole variety of people in here today that we've never had because I sent out the link publicly, so... There you go. It's going to be fun. Welcome, James. Welcome, James, to Hash Church, and welcome. I'm suspecting maybe these guys were both in the earlier Hash Churches. James looks somewhat familiar to me.

5:32SpeakerYeah, you invited me one time, and then I blew up your phone early in the morning because I didn't remember the time difference. Do you remember that? You know what, dude?

5:42BubblemanI wish I could say that that only has happened one time, but it generally happens almost every single day on my phone. Thank you for watching.

6:15BubblemanAwesome. Well, I'm glad that it worked out this way. You know, I send the link out to a variety of people who I'm excited to have come in, but it seems like more and more each week they're not really clicking on the link, they're not really coming in, so maybe I will have to mix it up and change the panel up a little bit, send some different people some links and freshen up the blood in here.

6:37SpeakerYeah, I just clicked on your Facebook link and I just... brought me to the Google Hangout thing.

6:42BubblemanWhich is so weird because the Facebook page I linked was a YouTube link. Yeah, that's weird. It is, right? But it's cool. I like it.

6:53Etienne FontanYeah, no doubt.

6:54BubblemanAnd so what happens is I've sent that link out to 20 people today and then those same people end up texting me and they say, hey, can I get a link for church? So I'm not sure if when I send a giant group I want to send a shout out to, again, Dougie from Hitman Glass.

7:38Etienne FontanAnd the whole crew for Chalice last week just to get some shout outs. Much love to them. Soil Grown. Got to meet Red Sea Ashishan, Pure Headies, of course, Fresh Off the Bud, Rosin Technologies. Got to meet Jen Doe, of course. Congrats to Rob Clark for Lifetime Achievement and Debbie Goldsberry, both greatly appreciated in the world of cannabis.

8:05BubblemanOh, yeah.

8:06Etienne FontanAnd, of course, Mila. Mothership Glass got to meet those cats. They were really cool and got to hit the huge skull cannabis piece that took over four months to make. Fucking crazy shit. And of course, got to smoke with Aaron and Frenchie, Aaron from DNA, and of course, finally got to meet the D-Nail crew, which was really nice. So, big shout-outs to them and to Shaman. So, just had to get those out of the way.

8:34Etienne FontanMuch love, because Chalice, I have to say, I know you hate to hear this, Marcus, but, you know, wish you were there. It was pretty much the best event I've attended cannabis-wise in my 20-plus years. I've attended events all around the world, and this is finally the event I've always wanted to attend, and nothing but love to the entire crew and everybody we got to sesh with.

9:01Etienne FontanMuch love to Dougie and them. Be there next year for 2016 if you can, everybody.

9:10Etienne FontanNext.

9:12BubblemanYeah, that's awesome, dude. Big, big props to the Chalice crew. Dougie for pulling it off. You know, I did see people starting to bitch and whine and schlag on him, and I was just like, really? Like... The event sounded like it was perfect and now people are trying to just, oh, this was, there was too many parts per million in this butane. It's like, well then don't fucking puff that shit if you don't want to, if you don't want to, you know, if you're worried about oil, you're worried about anything like that.

9:42Etienne FontanThe event was huge. You're talking, you know, tens of thousands of people through that door. So there's going to be, there's always, I've thrown events all around the world. So needless to say, shit happens all the time. But for what they did and their crew, they pulled it off flawlessly. So nothing's perfect and they'll work on things to improve for next year and they want your feedback just like I do.

10:06Etienne FontanI always want to know when I suck so I can get better. And, you know, for the most part, besides the weather being the ultimate, you know, reality there, everything was awesome. Much, much again, much props to everybody there.

10:21BubblemanVery cool. Nice to hear. I'm definitely looking forward to making it one year. I hope that the U.S. continues to move forward and that eventually, you know, that they reclassify cannabis and they reschedule it and that maybe one day I'll be able to go to the U.S. It would be pretty cool, I have to admit.

10:41Etienne FontanYou'd love to have you. I know I've heard people say, hey, when is there going to be a Hash Church event? And I If there ever was, it'd have to be international because, you know, a lot of us, some people can't be in other countries, some people can't be over here, so, I mean, the reality is, yeah, it would have to be international for sure.

11:00BubblemanYep, 100% agree on that. I gave a shout out to Jibbs and Ken. Probably should invite those guys into the room real quick. They sent me a really nice schwack of t-shirts and nice product and, uh, Wanted to thank those guys for always supporting. Tricomb Heavy Extracts and The Melts. Good folks who really have a serious bar to set when it comes to making the hashish. So I think of those guys as real bubble ambassadors.

11:41BubblemanGetting the resin out there. Hey, welcome, D420K. How you doing, buddy?

11:49SpeakerHow's it going? How's it going, everybody? Good, good. I'm back in my shop, in my cave. I love it. Back in the George. Back in the George.

11:59Etienne FontanHey, Horatio. Good to see you, buddy.

12:02BubblemanWelcome, Horatio, with a mouthful of milk. Come on, talk to us, buddy. Good morning. Nice headphones, brother.

12:07HoratioPimpin'. I found them attached to the places, so I'm like, when did I buy these? Nobody's using these, and I'm using these shitty headphones stuck in my brain? Let me take these downstairs and flash them on hashtag.

12:24SpeakerGreen?

12:25HoratioThose green headphones? Oh, no, they're actually blue. They're actually blue. It's the way things go on camera. I see that. So time out. You're actually, what color are you then? I'm Indian. I'm fully Indian. And I just do this darkening, toning, oranging to, you know, deep myself up to be a homie.

12:51SpeakerIt's scientifically called a Doppler shift.

12:55BubblemanThe Doppler shift. I appreciate the Doppler shift. And in fact, so does Tony. If you go back to some of the first hash churches, Tony was actually envious of Horatio's lighting. Damn, dude.

13:08HoratioYou got that Pulp Fiction lighting. It's not cool. I've actually toned it down because it gets fucking hot in here when I have all that lighting going in the summer. By like hour three, I'll go off camera and all of a sudden all the side light will go because I'm just melting. It's not worth it anymore.

13:26BubblemanWell, welcome nonetheless, everyone. It's another beautiful day. We've got 418 people in the room. They're ready for it. Whenever it comes, they're ready for it. I'll start it off a little bit. Let me see. I just got back from Winnipeg, Manitoba, where they are literally still fighting the real kind of like fight, which is that fight with your local police department. The wonderful woman who calls herself, I guess she's like an anti-cannabis crusader, Her name is Pamela McCall, and she's fairly insane.

14:01BubblemanShe's here in BC calling people out on the regular. I almost, my spidey sense tingles around when I hear this woman. I think that she's dangerous. So what she did, out of the kindness of her heartless soul, She called Winnipeg to let the police know that there was a dispensary that was planning on opening there to provide medicine to sick and hurting people and that they should absolutely not allow this because she doesn't want to live in a narco nation.

14:32BubblemanAnd these are her quotes almost exactly. So poor Glenn Price, the establishment owner in Winnipeg, I mean, the guy's on the front lines. He's doing the best that he can. He's trying to provide. I was surprised. His medicine was actually, it was pretty high quality. He had really nice bud. And he said that he was charging as cheap as he could afford to charge and that he would give people their money back if they weren't happy with the product or that he would trade it back for something that they were happy with.

15:03BubblemanSo he was really bending over backwards. And sort of providing, you know, like all dispensaries do, they fill a gap that is left behind in this gray area of a bunch of people saying, oh, we can have cannabis now, like there's laws that you can, oh, there's licensed producers, they're going to be, well, those are all great and everything, but then there are these holes, gaping fucking holes, where real sick people still aren't able to get medicine.

15:30BubblemanAnd there's a good interview, if you go to the Winnipeg video that I did about, The YMCH, which is your medical cannabis headquarters. You'll see us talking a little bit about it. You'll see in the comment section of that video, you'll see a news story. And in that news story, they interview him and they interview some of the people. You can get an idea of the people that are coming there.

15:55BubblemanOne guy said straight up, if I don't eat it, I don't eat. He was like, I need this every day, and when I run out and I need to order it from a licensed producer, I sometimes have to wait five or six or seven days. And so this is, of course, unacceptable, and I'm not bashing on licensed producers in any way, shape, or form. One of the things I really am bummed about when we get into these different topics is Are the topics of, you know, the little guy versus the big guy, the dispensary versus the corporate, you know.

16:34BubblemanI see a place for both of them personally, and this is just to start a dialogue. By all means, you guys can disagree or agree. But I just see that none of them are taking care of business 100%. No dispensary sells herb to all the people. No licensed producer sells herb to all the people. None of them are taking care of business 100%. They're fitting into little holes that need to be filled, and that's just how I see it.

17:03BubblemanI hope that that dispensary gets support. If you're in Manitoba, if you're in Winnipeg, I would urge you to go down and support them. I would urge you... Especially, even if you're not a smoker, but maybe a person in your family is using it medicinally, or somehow you see that it's a positive, that we need all the help that we can get, not just the choir, but we need people that are from outside of the choir, so that when they leave the event of standing up for something that they believe in, they can go back and they can tell that to their world.

17:37BubblemanThe world that most of this choir, unfortunately, we don't live in that world. So it's good for these two things to coexist and I put that out there to the panel. What do you guys think about that?

17:52Etienne FontanWithout a doubt there is a need and you're correct. There's no dispensary that is providing 100% to everyone and that's a reality. I mean we've learned here in California is that the patients, even though they're very educated, they know what they want and if they don't, Get it for what they want at a good price. They're going somewhere else. I mean, if you don't have good meds at a good price, sayonara.

18:18Etienne FontanThey don't care. You can blow as much rosy red smoke as much as you want to. But the reality still entails we still need providers to grow for us. We cannot grow on the scale of what is needed. So growers are needed here. However, You know, we don't have the same license system that you have there in Canada, or that is in Washington, or is in Colorado.

18:47Etienne FontanSo please, don't take what I'm saying here as except for nothing but California, because other states and every state has a different law. There's no universal law in the United States yet. So until then, I agree, there's different niches. You know, not only are there Like in Berkeley, we have our dispensary. In Oakland, they are allowed what's called Measure Z Clubs. It's legal or the lowest priority for the police to bust anyone for cannabis in Oakland.

19:15Etienne FontanIt was passed through local legislation. So then they passed the right for Measure Z Clubs. So Measure Z Clubs are legal adult clubs for people who are 21 and over to actually go into and purchase cannabis. And so it's open. That market's there. And I agree. There's more than enough money in this for everyone. There's no need for monopolies and for everyone to sit there on it.

19:41Etienne FontanEvery single one of us can own a dispenser. Every single one of us can grow. It is the great thing about cannabis. We can grow it. At the same time, not everyone can grow at medical grade status that we're looking for. And what we have seen, such as in California, as opposed to Colorado, and this isn't a diss to the Colorado people. Thank you so much for joining us.

20:32Etienne FontanIt's getting that way in Colorado, but that's because the market and the individuals have demanded that because they're also a much more educated clientele because they've grown up around cannabis more so than like when I grew up in Louisiana, there was no cannabis except for pressed, Mexican, etc. So whereas in California, everybody I know has turned on their early teens and it was all kind bud and it had access to kind bud and really green cannabis, which I know a lot of the U.S., It still doesn't have access to unless you're older and know somebody specifically.

21:07Etienne FontanSo there's tons of niches and everybody has filled their niche all around the country. Smoking circles have grown older once they start off with that cheap stuff and they find their friend or they start growing it and then they start to accumulate around those people and then it doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't have to go outside those circles because usually the grower is growing enough to provide for their circle.

21:31SpeakerSo there's a benefit to be moved.

21:33Etienne FontanThis has been until retail centers have stepped up and have had access to where we could actually over the counter directly to people and they have dictated to us the quality that they wish to see or they want it to be. So it's not that Colorado isn't growing good cannabis, it's just they don't have the diversity or the system that is inherent in Colorado currently. Thank you for joining us.

22:31Etienne FontanThe system here in California has found and sustained its own niches, as other states have through prohibition. And as other states come online, we'll see the opening up with dispensaries or legal access points, as we're seeing now in the four legal states, and hopefully someday soon in Washington, D.C. Sorry not to dominate the conversation, just trying to give as much perspective, at least from California, as I could here.

23:02Etienne FontanOff the soapbox.

23:05BubblemanWell, it's appreciated. I always appreciate when you lay down some knowledge, whether it's a perspective or whether it's a drop. I appreciate it and I want to say welcome to Nick for popping in. We've got 520 people checking us out on Hash Church for episode 43. Many dabs will go down. I think I'm going to have one right now. Or as D420K always says, Bong Rap!

23:36BubblemanTestify! Let's do it! Everyone has their part.

23:42BubblemanAnd that is a very important part. You know, it's funny, as we climb through this experience, I never want us to forget our roots. And in all of the fancy speak, and in all of the In all of the knowledge drops and in everything that we get into, as deep as we get into, we can never forget that it kind of all started with D420K. That's your cue.

24:10BubblemanBone rip. Bone rip. It's how we learned about it all. It's how we, you know, aside from maybe Mark, who probably went to school for chemistry, I never went to school for cannabis. I literally just lived my life, smoked a bunch of it, And it seemed to, much like The Mushroom, which Terrence McKenna has incredible dialogue on, talking about The Mushroom and how it sort of sparked language and sparked this, I don't know if I would call it a desire, but definitely like a passion for, and I feel the same way about cannabis, that it's more than just something that creates euphoria, it's more than just something that You know, helps every cell in your body communicate with one another.

24:58BubblemanIt's more than all of that, and somehow that synergy is that it's a companion to us. Who else is this plant doing this much good for? I mean, it just seems incredible to deny, whether atheist or religious.

25:17SpeakerI want to put something in here. Before we did House Church... Because all of us lived so far away from each other and stuff, we could only communicate doing this. And we had a lot of fun doing it. Getting baked together across the planet. What was that one chat thing that we did in the first one?

25:43BubblemanWas it on my site? Like a full melt bubble like years ago?

25:48SpeakerNo, no, this was before the past church what we were doing. Pretty much every night just getting in a circle of guys and getting baked on video, laughing it up, talking fucking like a bunch of stone kids or sharing information or whatever. And then you made it into a hash church and see, well, geez, maybe other people would enjoy listening to some of our shenanigans or some of our good stuff or some of the information and maybe someone else has some.

26:16SpeakerAnd then all of a sudden, what is this, episode 43 you said?

26:21BubblemanYeah. 43 episodes. It's years in the making really because I remember the first video chat I ever had and I paid huge money for this thing because I believed the importance and this was back before people wanted to go on video. This was literally like maybe in 06.

26:40SpeakerOr .com or something. .com.

26:42BubblemanYeah, it was like, I can't remember. It wasn't Tiny Chat. That was different. It was some other chat. I had a Tiny Chat before that, but then I got one on my own site that I hosted and paid for. It cost me like six grand a year to host this thing, but I loved the idea. Unfortunately, it became like a flame fest, and it didn't turn out good, but it definitely was the roots of what led to us sitting and doing Google Chats, and then eventually, you know, Really, one day all I did was see that you could stream.

27:13BubblemanIt said, they sent me a message saying, hey, you can now stream. And I clicked the button and I went into it and I was like, what is this all about? And I can do a stream and maybe I'll do a stream. What will I call it? Oh, it's Sunday. I'll call it Hash Church. Because we also used to go meet at Amir's across from the Melting Point every Sunday.

27:32BubblemanHis place, Rhyme, on Commercial Drive. And we would go meet there for what we called, we just called it church. And church was just a lot of smoking, a lot of puffing. You were at a few of those churches, were you not, Darren? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Yeah, I remember we made hash at those churches. We just would go hang out in this great room and he'd have good food and we would bust out, you know, some good dialogue.

27:59SpeakerWasn't there vegan food? Lots I remember back then.

28:02BubblemanWell, that was me across the street. I was the vegan, raw, organic, macrobiotic, like most insane, highest integrity, zero profit. Every time I sold someone a meal, it cost me 40 bucks.

28:16BubblemanThat's the way it is when you're not subsidized by the evil agenda, like making things worthwhile, even though it's impossible. For example... Feeding 25% of the world's grain supply to cows that take many, many kilos of grain and many, many gallons of water to produce just one pound of hamburger meat. That has to be so fucking subsidized for that to make sense so you could go buy a hamburger for like eight bucks that it's not even funny.

28:44SpeakerHow about those $200 steaks?

28:47BubblemanI think you're better off with a $200 steak than a $6 hamburger.

28:52SpeakerFucking good point, man. Very good point. That is my excuse to go spend more money on that steak because that steak was the top steak number one in my 45 fucking years.

29:06BubblemanWell, I would put $1,000 down that that steak was absolutely not grain fed.

29:15SpeakerOh, it probably wasn't. No, this shit was Wagyu beef. Wagyu beef.

29:20Etienne FontanYeah, that's massage. They're fed beer.

29:24SpeakerBeer! They're massaged and sung to every day. They're made to feel as comfy as they can and just to fatten up and marbleize. Like, I honestly, that was the best fucking steak I ever fucking had.

29:38Etienne FontanEver. It's the best beef I've ever had, hands down, without a doubt. Welcome to Steak Church.

29:45SpeakerOh. Welcome to Steak Church, man. I could have a Steak Church about this fucking steak, man.

29:52BubblemanYou should do it. You should do it. I support you.

29:57SpeakerYou won't come in, though. No, I'm not going to be there. You'll come in and say, I want my veggies.

30:03Etienne FontanHey, Marcus, don't hate on us humans who eat meat too much. Remember, vegetables, there's quite a few vegetables that eat meat themselves, so just FYI.

30:14BubblemanI don't... To be honest, my relationship with meat is very different than hating on people that eat it. Right at the top of the chain, I'm bummed out that billions of animals are tortured and killed in a horrible way to produce an industry that is just bad vibes right down to the slave labor that they use in order to manipulate statistics so when those people lose hands and feet and lives, they don't have to write it down because they're not even legally allowed to work in the country.

30:46BubblemanFrom the perspective of that, I really love animals. I do. I dig them. I like them. I think that if anyone took a good old dose of mushrooms and hung out with some of the animals that they were consuming, they might, I don't know. I was a big meat eater. I haven't eaten, like, I eat some fish now. I haven't had red meat or birds or anything like that in probably close to 25 years.

31:10BubblemanI definitely don't trip. On any of my friends consuming it, I've been to many a meals with D420K, and I think he would tell you I definitely don't guilt him about anything that he eats.

31:21SpeakerNot at all. Not at all. Not in any way. I'd eat it. I'd eat that meat. I'd kill a fucking animal myself and butcher it and eat it.

31:30BubblemanYeah, I don't think I'm better than anyone. I don't think that I need to force people to not eat meat. I just personally had the vision very, like 25 years ago, with the help of psychedelics, that I liked animals and not so much the idea of them having a terrible life, a horrible death, pumping mass adrenaline into their bloodstream right before they pass away. And then consuming that.

31:54BubblemanI think that that's definitely a little bit of what's wrong with the world right now. And I might just be a utopian hippie. I don't know.

32:02SpeakerBy all means disagree, panel. The trick is not to pump that adrenaline into the system. The trick is to kill them without them knowing they're dying.

32:11Etienne FontanYeah, I worked in a slaughterhouse my senior year of high school, so I mean I understand what it takes and being respectful. I grew up in rural Louisiana, so anything we hunted, We ate. We didn't just shoot and kill anything. I grew up with a great respect for the land and a great respect from animals. I raise animals. I understand. I have much respect. It's everyone's personal choice.

32:36Etienne FontanI'm selective of the meat that I eat as best as I can.

32:43BubblemanThat relationship you had is important with the killing of your animals and the eating of it. I think that that relationship has been so far separated that no one today Unless they really are hardcore and really go out of their way to order specific types of meats, if they're eating at restaurants, for example, well, there's no way that you know that that animal had a good death.

33:06BubblemanThere's just no way.

33:08Etienne FontanAnd it's more likely that they didn't. Mark Zuckerberg actually hunts his own animals and kills them now to lead by example, as he is saying. But I agree. I think what we have been so separated from what we put on our plates If you had to actually slaughter the animal that you, and prepare it, you know, which is freeze it, put it on the bandsaw, freeze dry it, whatever, however you prep it, store it in your freezer, etc., and then actually cook it and eat it, gives you a much better understanding.

33:42Etienne FontanI mean, I also grew up with 4-H, and I think at the age of 12 I wore a blue ribbon for meat judging, but just by going and picking the cuts of meats, etc., because... I grew up in rural Louisiana, so you learn about those things. We didn't have TV, so you learn about the land, you learn about the animals, and you learn about the respect. I haven't slaughtered an animal in decades.

34:09SpeakerWhen I'm bow hunting and I get my animal, that's when the work starts. And before anything happens, you offer some tobacco to the ones that fly and the sun and the water and everybody, and you say thanks. You say thanks to the animal, and then you prepare it. It's definitely not a thing of showing the animal disrespect by no means at all. And when you do do that, and you get that meat in your freezer, and you're eating that meat, you pretty much say thanks almost every time you eat it because you are thankful for it.

34:39SpeakerAnd you did do it properly, and you prepared it right, and you killed it right. You know, I love eating. I love eating. I love eating meat. It's just what it is.

34:49Bubbleman100 society. 170 billion animals annually is what we, I believe, consume today.

34:58SpeakerA cow a year, a cow and a couple of deer, maybe a half a moose.

35:02Etienne FontanThat's a good way to wean yourself off me, people, is to not eat meat at every particular meal. I don't eat meat at every meal. That's a great way to start. I lived as a vegetarian, and I was a vegetarian for a good Five or six years, and it's just my body craved the protein and is more sustained. I'm an O positive blood as well, so it also helps know your blood type.

35:32Etienne FontanBecause certain blood types can actually digest certain foods better. I highly recommend, I forget the name of that book, it's about eating for your blood type. And it's excellent on knowing...

35:48Etienne FontanEssentially, knowing your bloodlines, where you come from, as well as what your body can digest and break down, because those are key things to understand about your body, because every body is different. We're all hybrids. We're all different. We're all related, yet we're all different. You and I can have the same condition, and you and I try the same cannabis, and what may work for me won't work for you, and that's also a frustration that All of us are dealing with right now is trying to find that right genetic, that right medicine so that we can start to help these people that are not getting the relief that we know that they can get or hope to because unfortunately we know there are some people who are allergic to cannabis.

36:34Etienne FontanIt is true. People can be allergic to cannabis and can have reactions and adverse reactions. I know people who have had Reactions from smoking pot that was so strong that they won't touch the stuff anymore. Anybody else have any of those experiences?

36:50HoratioWell, itching, like if I even put my arm through some leaves and pull it back out, my hand comes out like a patent leather bag. Uh, welts and patterns of irritation. Like, it can be, like, it seconds in the case of, like, contact dermatitis with me. I know Fletcher also complains about allergies, like the dry sift is really, um, I work with masks. A lot of people in the industry don't even, they go, I get itchy, but they don't acknowledge it as an actual allergen issue that has to have a workplace environment with You know, clean air and remove pollen.

37:28HoratioSo, like, a lot of people don't even consider their allergic reactions to bee allergies because it's cannabis. Oh, I just get itchy. It doesn't matter. It's weed. I have a job to do. But they totally don't realize it's a plant and lots of people react differently. You can imagine if your trim boss isn't allergic and you're a trimmer and you're allergic, he doesn't understand anything you're saying and thinks you're a weirdo.

37:56SpeakerWe've had a processor that had to wear like an oxygen mask essentially and would wear long sleeves every day at work no matter how hot it was because she would break out into hives and just the pollen reacts differently with different people.

38:13BubblemanYou know what I wanted to mention in regards to what Etienne said because I think it was really important and how he pointed out that we were all different and that we could have the same A thing going on to a degree like named the same illness and then using difference or the same strain that it wouldn't necessarily work for both people that way. And I think there's something incredibly important to take out of that which is it's dangerous to a point to direct people to what you think is going to help that particular ailment.

38:49BubblemanWhat I mean is, oh, you need a high, a heavy indica or a high CBD or a, I hear people shooting this shit all the time and I'm just, I always say, you know what, what I think you should do is try as many different canabuses as you can, just in small amounts. If it's for something like a smoking aspect where you're looking to relieve anxiety or you're looking to relieve ocular pressure or you're looking to increase an appetite or you're looking to increase your sleep, These things can all be done through the bioassay of smoking a joint or vaping a bud.

39:25BubblemanAnd I think it's very important to allow people that. And the reason I think this really to a T is because I was contacted several months ago by a woman, and I might have mentioned this in Hash Church already, but she had a small son and he had a brain tumor. Of course, she was terrified to give him cannabis. Her worst nightmare was that he was going to get high, not that he was going to seemingly die from the brain tumor.

39:48BubblemanAnd so she asked me what I thought that he should do. And I said, well, you know, I would get on Google and check out all these different sites. But personally, from what I've learned, I would try and get a high dose of phytocannabinoids over the course of a day, whether you're micro dosing into that high dose or high dosing, however you're getting it done, you know, upwards of half a gram to a gram of phytocannabinoids inserted, put into the body somehow.

40:13BubblemanAnd high THC that we, you know, and I sent her the information from Cristina Sanchez, is it? The chemist in Spain who really did the majority of the work on THC and tumors. I think she did a 10-year study on it. So I sent her there and I put her towards all this stuff and reiterated that I am not a doctor or a chemist or anything. I'm just a person who's gathered information and this is my opinion and And she came right back with, oh, I saw Sanjay Gupta, or I can't remember the name of the show, but it was basically that she saw it and she wanted to give her son high CBD, low, low, low THC.

40:57BubblemanAnd it just made me feel like, wow, like that is not really... A helpful situation to direct people, oh, you need CBD, and this is what she was told. She needs CBD because it doesn't get the kids high. That's all that her concern was, and it just made me really feel bad that information can be

41:21Horatio180 turned like in the complete opposite direction of the intention. It's almost, I mean, you're an old school conspiracy theorist. It's almost luciferic how it seems so helpful, but it's actually to get you going in the absolute wrong direction so that I see a great crushing of hope that's constantly happening through misinformation. And that hope never gets rekindled.

41:46Archive SeedsYeah, I think it's also an oversimplification of the cannabis plant and all the different compounds that we still haven't studied in the plant. I mean, like you guys are saying, one strain can have a myriad of effects depending on the person and their personal body chemistry, and that can't necessarily just be related to just THC or just CBD or just THCB. There's hundreds of other compounds, terpenes, that are all going to have different impacts and either modify or change or potentially like it may be great for you, but if I have a terrible allergen reaction to it, it's an extremely not pleasurable experience for me while someone else is having an awesome experience with this cannabis for the exact same problem if we're talking about medicine.

42:31Archive SeedsIt's because we're using the plant in its raw form with all these compounds. Not simplified and all there. Once we start getting to pharmaceutical applications where it's like 30 to 1 or 15 to 1 or 1 to 1 ratios or whatever, now you're talking about actually seeing direct results from specific compositions.

42:55Etienne FontanThat's why we've created an adverse reaction form because we're handling patients. Quite a few thousands come through our doors. We've had patients that have had bad reactions, so we have an adverse reaction form so that we can document what happened to them, what they took, what cannabis did they take, how did they ingest it, so that we can also better understand and take that knowledge and when we have access to more doctors, Mark, and people who come through can assess that data because it is an unfortunate reality.

43:30Etienne FontanPeople have reactions to cannabis and all kinds of reactions depending on The other medications that they're taking it, when they're taking it, what they're eating, their metabolism itself. That's why our bud tenders, we take a lot of time educating them about the different strains, but they also actively listen to patients and patients with needs because they're always asking and having a dialogue with the patients. So they can start to get an understanding of where certain patients go for certain genetics that work for them.

44:10Etienne FontanAnd so we're always, you know, that's why we also have things available in like grams so that people can try things in small amounts so they don't have to commit to buying an ounce or something like that so they can try a diversity of products so that they can at least start to go from this huge diversity to start narrowing down to find what that next point is.

44:32Etienne FontanSomething that we're working on is a database which is internal that actually maintains what you purchase over time and then it stores that data and then it will cross-reference anything that's in stock currently that is a serious, that is a similar phenotype through the actual chemistry breakdown that we have scientifically so that we are actually We're using our patient data along with the scientific data to start to narrow down so that we can at least point people in directions.

45:08Etienne FontanAs I stated earlier, not every single genetic works for the same person, so if we can point it down to a group of 10 flowers as opposed to the 60 to 70 flowers that we have, it gives the patient a better access point for them to choose, which is, again, such a frustration with I have cancer. I just found out I have cancer and I go into a dispensary and now I have 70 to 100 different varieties to choose from.

45:38Etienne FontanThe choice is overwhelming and people can get absolutely stymied by choice selection. I think you can agree with me, right Nick?

45:50SpeakerOh, 100%. And, I mean, just as what you were saying with people's chemistry, I have a patient that I've been helping for a little over three years now, and it's an epilepsy patient, and she... It is very strain specific. I've given her other things that are two to one. I've given her other things that are two to one with similar terpene profiles and nothing works like this one specific strain.

46:18SpeakerWhen she's given the...

46:22SpeakerThe application that she takes with the lemon remedy, it works instantly. It's very similar to the NIA situation, whereas with other medications or with other ratios, it is almost ineffective. Definitely, we need to stay away from things like New York, which are trying to go away from strain names and only legalize ratios, which is going to be detrimental to the population out there, to the medical people out there.

46:53Etienne FontanThat's frustrating because from what we've seen through the amount of testing that I've done, which is thousands of tests, so many phenotypes, which are different, do have very similar markings when they actually come out in the testing.

47:09SpeakerSo if we're talking about the physiological effects of how cannabis affects individual patients, of course the body chemistry is going to play a huge role, if not the major role, in how these things affect. Remember, what's in cannabis are the keys. What's in your body is the lock. Those are the receptors that are expressed in the tissue and in the cells in your body that the keys are reacting with.

47:36SpeakerSo absolutely, you're We're going to be talking about your family genetics, your history, whether or not you're fighting other diseases, if you're immunocompromised. All of those are going to affect the prevalence of the receptors and the ability for the compounds in cannabis to bind to those receptors. So it only stands to say that it's probably more a function of your body chemistry than any of us really know or care to believe in.

48:09SpeakerWhen you put anything in your body, your body has its own system, a way of attacking things that shouldn't be in there. And the fact that cannabis kits that THC and CBD actually gets to these receptors tell you that they're what the pharmaceutical companies call privileged platforms, in that the scaffold of the molecule itself is just such a way that it is allowed passage through the system to bind and activate these receptors.

48:38SpeakerSo the body chemistry is going to have a huge, huge impact in the prevalence of those receptors and whether or not there's other things in your body that's going to attack the cannabinoids and degrade them before they get to those receptors.

48:55BubblemanHey, Nick, what was the name of the strain you were talking about a bunch of people asked in the chat room?

49:01SpeakerLemon Remedy.

49:03BubblemanLemon Remedy. Got that, everyone? Lemon Remedy. Do you know the background of that genetic?

49:10SpeakerYou know, it's a CBD strain. It's a two to one ratio. I'm not specific on the genetics itself. It's something that we've carried for about three years. It's very small batches. We get it in in Generally, it's one specific breeder or grower that brings it to us. I'll definitely try to gain some more feedback from our purchasing department and let you guys know.

49:46BubblemanWelcome, Cannabis Reverend. Jeff is in the house. He's live from a bluegrass festival. I guess he's got the mic muted.

49:55Cannabis ReverendGood morning, everybody. How goes it, dude? Good, man, good. I've been enjoying some good bluegrass music out here in the woods at Horning's Hideout. Horning's Hideout. Yeah, Horning's Hideout, man. It's North Plains, Oregon.

50:12BubblemanWow.

50:13Cannabis ReverendYeah.

50:15BubblemanI think the last time I was there was in the 90s, bro.

50:21Cannabis ReverendHornings is an awesome spot, man. It's good. We've got a nice little pond hanging out here right by the amphitheater.

50:29BubblemanI can't believe you're at Hornings Hideout. I honestly had no idea. Yeah.

50:35Cannabis ReverendYou know, I like to take two weeks off during the summer and go to Oregon Country Fair and then go to String Summit for, you know, Horning's Hideout for String Summit. Wow. Awesome, dude. Yeah.

50:48BubblemanThat's very good. We have a big festival going on right now here in British Columbia just up the road from me. It's called the Pemberton Festival. And it's a pretty big one. The last time they had it was some years ago, but it was like Jay-Z played and I don't know, some other big name bands. It was pretty, I went and saw Tom Petty, and that was pretty enjoyable from the sound board with my buddy who was doing part of the sound.

51:14BubblemanAnd I think the Tragically Hip, which is a Canadian band, but oh, I don't get out to festivals enough these days.

51:24Cannabis ReverendYeah, you got to get yourself out into the woods, get out to the festival, and relax for a little bit every year. That's what I do to re-energize.

51:32BubblemanYou know what I did? I just put my house in the woods, and all I do is go into my backyard now, put some music on, and just be like, all right. Surround myself with my plants, which are, I'm telling you, almost six feet tall now. My congolese and my sweet skunk are definitely closing in on the six foot range, which is, well, Who doesn't love when their plants reach that, start getting taller than them?

51:58BubblemanYou know when your children get taller than you and you get all verklempt? My girls are growing.

52:05HoratioThe only problem is a lot of people are like, my girls are growing. It's time to break their necks in half and push them over to the side and we'll just space them out in this nice grid and they'll all grow up perfectly with a bunch of broken little fingers.

52:19BubblemanWell, you know Horatio, I don't parent like that.

52:25Etienne FontanYou sound so abusive, my God.

52:28HoratioWell, I just, I see the violence that goes down. I remember I broke one of my wife's tomatillo plants and I'm like, oh, don't worry. The guys that do weed, they do it all the time. It'll just grow this horrendous knuckle and keep growing. It's in style. Don't worry. Just let me brutalize through your patch and get it all trellised up for you. It's natural to have your bone breaking and reshaping over and over.

52:51BubblemanOoh, yeah, that was, I remember Pete. You guys knew Pete, the activist from East Coast in London, Ontario. I think he has a shop there. What was his, maybe he's even in New York now, but he did a whole thing at High Times that year. And in fact, I believe that he had been working with Matt or something, or Matt had helped show him, or I can't remember the story exactly, but he did a whole seminar on just snapping plants And creating these big knuckles like all over the plants to produce more buds.

53:26BubblemanI break the shit out of them, says Straight Concentrates. See? Horatio knows the violence is out there. This goes back to the meat.

53:33Etienne FontanYeah, stop the violence. You gotta deal with her, you know. You can't leave her growing through the lights, right?

53:40BubblemanYeah, well that's why I put my girls outside and I let them grow to the sun.

53:47Etienne FontanWhich is, again, why I was saying a few hashtags ago, which is amazing, that that ball can be a million miles away and your nodal structure will stay nice and huh, but if I move my light a foot above my plant in door, it will start reaching for it and elongate. That's pretty amazing.

54:08HoratioIt is. Well, the not respected is why you get these wackily shaped plants. I mean, I know I'm indoors and I know what I'm emulating, so I live in a half inch increment. I'm like, to be like the sun, I'm always going to have to have this light on the edge of the plants and move them incrementally to get a nodal structure that's even remotely related to nature.

54:32HoratioIt's just a part of living with a plant, like living with animals if you're going to consume them. I hate to go back to the animal point, but one of the things I get that frustrates me about people who say, I love animals, but I don't actually deal with them. I'm like, if you really love animals, then you will clean up their shit so that they have a peaceful life, and then you earn the right to consume them.

54:57HoratioI think There's a degree of that that goes back to the cannabis plant and producing medicine with that invisible frequency of love that there's something I don't like about the breakage and the brutality versus giving a plant enough light to produce the same nodal structure.

55:16BubblemanTrue enough. There's always a better way. I like the purest way myself. I think it's why I get along with Horatio. He's even more insane than me. It's awesome.

55:26Cannabis ReverendYeah, one reason why I like to break them down and create those big knuckles, as you say, Horatio, I find that if you have certain strains and you let them grow just their central cola, you're going to get way, way less yield. And on some strains, there's a lot more tendency to have mold issues, bud rot, when you have those larger buds. So if you snap that central cola over, Thank you for watching.

56:02HoratioI think it's because it always produces a plant with this dreadful stratification of bud that they show you the top colas, they close up on the top colas and the world of the six top colas, but anything that produces tops, mids, lowers, trash, these different gradations doesn't sound, it sounds like a plant that's in so many different phases that it just goes out there and usually the poorest people end up smoking the swaggy lowest end of the bud where I just, I'm getting into growing for a specific intention and that's kind of now I'm getting hyper serious and I'm looking at subtleties of why do you grow nodes just to replace them and grow a canopy that's 18 inches tall, three feet in the air, what was all the vegging for if you're just going to kill it?

56:52HoratioAnd all these little things that are knacking my brains and racking my brains and I'm having a real problem with Thank you so much for joining us.

57:27BubblemanYou know, there is a quality difference. When I first ever smoked a bowl with Skunk Man Sam, and I had heard, oh, his hash is super strong, and I was like, well, how strong can it be? I smoke full melt every day, like, chronically. And I smoked a bowl of his hash, and this was like, maybe in like 2000 or 2001, maybe. I had actually smoked a bowl of it In 1995, but I didn't know that it was his hash.

57:59BubblemanI should have known because John Conray's wife pretty much fell down the stairs after she smoked a little bit of it. And it was definitely an intense moment for a few people in the room. The first time I knew I was smoking it with him and he passed it to me, I could not, like it's basically what Horatio's talking about. It's like the difference between when you eat like, drink a milkshake or something and yeah it was delicious and your stomach's all full, but compared to drinking something like a raw juice where you drink it and you get high.

58:28BubblemanLike you feel like you're vibrating throughout your whole body. That was kind of the difference between smoking Skunk Man Sam's hash and smoking anyone else's hash up to that point in time. I'm certain that it was amazingly bred, amazingly grown, amazingly decontaminated, and it just literally blew the back of my head off. I still to this day have never hit anything like it.

58:58Etienne FontanI have a question for everyone. When you cull your plants, do you execute your plant in front of the other plants, or do you take them out of the room into another room when you do so? So that the other plants don't see.

59:12Archive SeedsOh, it goes straight in the trash bag. It's a slaughterhouse in here.

59:17BubblemanWoo! Slaughterhouse!

59:21Archive SeedsFor 12 years, it's bad.

59:25BubblemanMy plants are still alive in the bucket going, what's going on as the water is getting poured over them?

59:30SpeakerATN, did you actually ask if the other plants see that? They see, like vision?

59:38Etienne FontanYeah. Really? Yes. If you actually look at and actually do plant studies, plants are more understanding of their environment and what's around them than you realize. Todd can talk about it. He showed me this video that was done on PBS. Plants can feel. Plants can see exactly what's going on. So they're not dumb. They've actually put receptors on plants and actually killed insects. I've watched the actual plants react.

1:00:07Etienne FontanTodd, what was that video that you turned me onto that shows about the secret life of plants? Is that what it's called?

1:00:22SpeakerIt is on nature and it's what plants talk about and it is actually very deep. They do a lot of scientific testing to see the perception of plants in their environments and how they pick out their host plants because, for instance, there are certain plants that don't Thanks for watching.

1:00:59SpeakerAnd the program is utterly fantastic. It doesn't only talk about that. It talks about the way plants that are related to each other when they're rooting will actually We need space for their related roots or related plants' roots to grow, but if they're not related, it'll just be a little root war. And it's also fantastic. It shows how roots grow more like animals move, whereas a root will grow and grow and grow until it finds a pocket of nutrients in the soil, and then literally it'll stop just like a cougar or a lion or whatever and feed.

1:01:36SpeakerThank you for watching.

1:01:58Etienne FontanSo that's why I asked the question first of all. I wasn't just being sarcastic. I was just being silly saying that. I mean, these plants can actually feel and see, such as you can actually taste the meat. The difference is how you slaughter an animal. If the animal, that's what we were talking about earlier, if the animal knows it's going to die, you can actually taste it in the meat, as opposed to if it's relaxed, et cetera, et cetera.

1:02:21Etienne FontanSo it's the same thing. I don't know if it's the same thing regarding plants, but I just thought it was just an interesting... Thank you for joining us.

1:02:56BubblemanIs it releasing something differently, like when you kill an animal and it knows, it actually pumps adrenaline into its bloodstream from the adrenal gland? Are they saying that when a plant is killed a certain way that it is...

1:03:10SpeakerNot so much kill. They're not really discussing harvest marks. They're talking about the fact that, for instance, when a tobacco plant is attacked by a specific kind of bug, it will differentiate between the pests that are on the plant, and it will actually release a chemical scent that attracts A bug that will come and take care of the pest it's actually having. So it's releasing a specific hormone, if you will, because it can differentiate what's munching on its leaves and ask for the best course.

1:03:43SpeakerAnd what it also pointed out with like the tobacco plant, if it was incapable of getting help, backup, it can literally change from being a daylight, We're going to be talking about a plant that's going to attract a different kind of flowering plant to a nighttime flowering plant so that it'll attract a completely different kind of host. It's really quite fantastic because I guess in the days it would have moths and the moths would turn into grass, you know, what we all hate, caterpillars, and eat the plant up.

1:04:12SpeakerSo in the night it was different. So really fantastic. I recommend it to everybody. Yeah, what plants to talk about.

1:04:21Archive SeedsWe've all noticed the same clone grown in many different gardens many different ways can definitely taste and smell look different. Just like you're saying, if the plant's changing, if the tobacco plant's releasing some type of chemical that's attracting Dr. An insect could easily be doing the same thing with its odors and its scents depending on environmental changes and the symbiotic relationships with other organizms it has in its surrounding.

1:04:51Archive SeedsThat has a lot to do with companion planting outside where you companion plant blueberries with this other plant and these other kind of weeds grow with this type of plant. So that you don't have to use pesticides because in nature there was a lot of, you know, millions of years of opportunities for them to develop those type of symbiotic relationships.

1:05:15BubblemanI discovered one accidentally years ago growing when I first moved to BC in 1996 and I set up my grow. A friend of mine locally, he knew that I wasn't really into tobacco, which I should have said I wasn't really into cigarettes. So he was like, listen, tobacco is a real sacred plant. I want you to have a relationship with it. I'm going to give you these seeds.

1:05:35BubblemanI want you to grow some. And I was like, all right, I'll grow some tobacco. You know, I'm not going to smoke it, but I'll certainly grow it and take care of it. And I grew this plant, a few of them. It grew beautifully in my garden. It had big leaves and a nice big stalk and all over the stalks of this tobacco plant. It was some crazy variety he gave me from like Central America.

1:05:54BubblemanIt had these hairs that were so like almost invisible that I ended up getting like some type of a gnat came into my room. And it was basically... It grew to a point where there was many of them flying around and then in a very short time they all got stuck, impaled on this tobacco plant. Like literally somehow it was attracting them and when they went to land on it, one of those little hairs would just impale their bodies and the whole thing was just full and I had no more of these bugs.

1:06:28BubblemanLike they killed themselves off at such an accelerated rate that they weren't in the roots, there was no more basically. And it was a unique situation of finding this companion plant to grow. And of course it might have just been for that particular gnat at that particular point in time, but it sure blew my mind that something I thought for sure was going to have a detrimental effect on the crop ended up just disappearing and I cropped out a beautiful crop.

1:06:57Archive SeedsYeah, I mean, now that agriculture's, you know, not a lot of it, but a lot of people are starting to get into organic agriculture and stuff because there's a market for it. Whole foods and all these, you know, higher end supermarkets and restaurants are willing to pay for that stuff. And, you know, you have a very limited amount of pesticides and things that you can use if you're trying to be organic.

1:07:20Archive SeedsSo finding, you know, historically significant because, you know, Hundreds of years ago, we didn't have the pesticides that we have today at all. A lot of this information is actually available in old almanacs and things like that. They tell you what to plant with other things and what to plant after this crop the previous year because this one, like alfalfa, put nitrogen back in your soil. If you tilt back in, it's just, you know, we're finally starting to come back around to old agricultural practices now that people are willing to pay a little bit more for their fruits and vegetables and stuff like that.

1:07:59Archive SeedsBut conversely, in the cannabis market, we're going the opposite direction. You know, the price is getting lower and lower and lower. The retailers want to make a larger percentage on every sale than they ever were because the margins are slimmer. And the economic incentive is not there for the grower to want to grow a $3,000 pound or whatever it is.

1:08:23SpeakerI would like to point something out, though, because it's been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. And, you know, I'm not, you know, ATN tier and I'm not bashing what BPG's done because they're one of the few people that's actually been price conscious in this whole, you know, market of medical marijuana. But I've been part of the cannabis scene in California since the early 90s.

1:08:41SpeakerI lived up in Mendocino, Grumpot. With a gentleman who's now passed away, Richard Davis, who owned the United States Hemp Museum. And I've lived up and down this coast, and the price for retail cannabis to the consumer since the early 90s has only risen. It has not dropped. I mean, back in the early 90s when I was chasing around the dead, if someone sold you an ounce of weed over $400, it was usually because they didn't like you.

1:09:08SpeakerYou know, if you paid more than 50 and 8, that was the, you know, that was the butthole price. And now it's really hard pressed to go into a cannabis club and find anything under 60 and 8. You know, I mean, I think top shelf stuff at BPG is 55 and they're an abnormality, to be honest. And it even goes higher. You go into LA, price is 60, 70, 80, you know, for things like, you know, LA OG Kush and stuff that the market will pay for.

1:09:35SpeakerYou know, that said, it kind of bothers me. It kind of bothers me a little bit because the retail market has come in and what's happened is it's pushed growers' prices. What used to be up in Northern California, $4,800 a pound in the 90s, is now lucky to get $1,800 a pound in the current market. That's forced, I call it a race to the bottom because now all these growers who used to grow organically and put the effort in and cure it properly and meticulously handle the cannabis, they don't get rewarded anymore.

1:10:09SpeakerI mean the highest quality cannabis that I know of selling in shops out here is maybe getting $3,600, $3,800 a pot at the absolute highest.

1:10:21SpeakerThank you for watching.

1:10:39SpeakerBut after SB 420 passed in California, they started allowing these pot clubs to come in, and they wouldn't prosecute the pot club owner, but they would prosecute the pot producer. And that put us into a situation of having no rights whatsoever. No leverage, you know, not being able to pay taxes. It really put the producer in a very difficult and precarious situation when, you know, the guy on Sunset Boulevard is sitting there with the business permit, you know, cops are walking through his shop and he's being treated like he's a normal person.

1:11:12SpeakerAnd I think that's been a huge problem with lack of regulation and oversight in California and why we're seeing really good cannabis not really being appreciated, really shitty cannabis basically being exported. And pop clubs are really the ones making all the money because it has really been an impacted thing. It would have went down for the consumer. So instead of eights being 50 bucks, they'd be 30 bucks, right?

1:11:36SpeakerBut that hasn't been what's happened. I've seen them only get more expensive.

1:11:40Archive SeedsWell, and that's really a phenomenon in California to a certain degree. I mean, In Oregon, if you go into Portland, there's no medical shops selling for more than $35 an eighth, really. There's a few shops maybe asking $40 on some random stuff or like $15 a gram, but it doesn't sell. I want to put them out there.

1:12:00SpeakerGeographically, you know, I love my brothers to the north. You know, Kenny from Trichrom Technologies always jokes that Humboldt County is not a good place to geographically grow cannabis. It is geographically a good place to hide and grow cannabis. But those are not exclusively the same things. And when you get further and further up, Oregon doesn't have the climate to support the type of cannabis that we can take down.

1:12:24SpeakerYou know, Humboldt County... It is another three, four hours south of the border from Oregon in some cases. I mean, Mendocino County is way south. You start getting north of Grants Pass, you've got an entirely different weather, climate conditions up there, and they simply cannot produce the kind of cannabis we're pulling down in the more southern regions.

1:12:43Archive SeedsYeah, not outdoor, but I mean, there is a lot of, because the cost of operation in Oregon and Washington in terms of, you know, what's power and humble unless you're on, you know, the right pieces of property near the power grid. And you have some type of incentive, let's say. There's a, you know, you're going to be at 20, 30 plus cents a kilowatt hour, commercially 15 plus cents.

1:13:08Archive SeedsUp here, you're talking 7 cents, maybe 5 cents, depending on where you're at and where your commercial power is coming from. So, I mean, even residentially, you're looking at 9 cents up here, where in Humble, once you get to the third tier in pricing, you're like 40 cents or something. So, I mean, that's one thing that props up the California market, and then there's the fact that it's like the second biggest economy in the world or something like that.

1:13:33Archive SeedsYou know, it's like California is like 60 million people, and it's a ton of business and money there.

1:13:39SpeakerI think we only have like 38 million people, and we're somewhere between the sixth and eighth largest economy in the world economically.

1:13:46Archive SeedsYeah, but I mean, it's huge, though, in terms, I mean, for one state to have that, you know, That kind of pull and power is astronomical compared to Oregon or Washington. That's the thing. For example, in Oregon, if it's $35 for the very, very top shelf, there's absolutely almost no incentive for someone to want to grow a low-yielding, high-quality strain that takes long to flower. Instead of growing a high yielding, high concentrate yielding, nine week, two pound plus a light strain and make your life easy and not have 50 different mothers and trying to, you know, the only incentive there is like in Oregon to provide all those products You know what?

1:14:34SpeakerI would like to point out something because when I moved to Amsterdam in 1994 and 95 and 96, it was an interesting time of cannabis consciousness hitting Holland because when I first moved there in 94 and started visiting there, there was just skunk. Everything was five, six guilders a gram and there wasn't haze. There wasn't long flowering varieties because It didn't look like good pot. It didn't look like what people expected when they came in and saw skunk.

1:15:04SpeakerRealiztically, to his credit, Arian was one of the very first coffee shop owners that started buying cannabis at over $8.50 a gram wholesale, guilders that is, from Americans that were growing there. Really, AK-47 was one of the first varieties. I remember creeping up over the eight guilder gram mark, and it was because Thank you. Arian said, frig it, I'll let people try it. If it sells, it sells.

1:15:31SpeakerThat's when he started bringing in Cali Mist, NL5 by Hayes, that's when Neville's Hayes got around, and suddenly they started educating people as to the difference on long flowering varietals. And to his surprise, Cali Mist would retail for $17.50 a gram compared to, you know, Hindu Kush, Skunk, Big Bud, you know, things like that, Citral, getting maybe $10, $11, $12 a bud. Thank you for joining us.

1:16:01SpeakerRoutinely, when I left Holland, Neville's Haze was 17, 18, 50 a gram. NL5 by Haze was 17, 50 a gram. Tally Mist was up there at 16, 50, 17 a gram, where everything else was below that. It was because of the consumers realizing that it was a better smoke, whereas it may not look as pretty as Big Bud or Henry Cush or Odie or a lot of other pretty buds.

1:16:30SpeakerThe smoke, the proof was in the pudding, so to speak.

1:16:37Archive SeedsYeah, I mean, hopefully at some point the consumer will start demanding that different product or that sativa or something like that. And I'm sure they do in small quantities in certain markets and stuff, but it's definitely not a trend, let's say, at this point.

1:16:57BubblemanYou never know where Tony's going to come in from. He could literally be in like a field. He could be like on a plane. He could be in like a car. It's like, where's Tony today?

1:17:09BubblemanWelcome, Tony.

1:17:10TonyWelcome.

1:17:13SpeakerGood morning, Tony.

1:17:14TonyGood morning. How are you guys doing? Sorry I was a little late this morning.

1:17:20SpeakerYou've been a busy man.

1:17:22TonyBusy guy. Busy guy. But... I finally got to sleep in a little bit. It's like you forget that Sundays used to be those days for sleeping in and then Mark decided to do hash church at fucking 9 a.m. in the morning.

1:17:38SpeakerI second that. I completely second that. People are always like, why are you waiting for hash church? I'm thinking late for hash church. I'm up like an hour and a half, two hours earlier than I would have ever woken up on a Sunday. Ever.

1:17:52TonySunday's the only day for rest. And it's like, I feel like if Hash Church started at 1 p.m., it would be like a lot more ideal. But it starts at 9 a.m. on the West Coast.

1:18:06SpeakerMark, whatever happened to the stoner in you? Tony is right, man. What are we doing up this early, Tony?

1:18:14BubblemanI had three cups.

1:18:16TonyThat's it.

1:18:17BubblemanThat's it.

1:18:18SpeakerI have three kids. It's that simple. I think I summarized it in you dad you. That was pretty much it. So we suffer when we're up at 9am usually.

1:18:28TonyYou have kids but imagine all the guys that don't have kids yet that are working on it and Sunday is our day to religiously work on that first thing in the morning.

1:18:39SpeakerTony dropped it. How many of those kids did you make on the Saturday night, Mark? How many of those kids? You know what? I think a couple.

1:18:52TonySo, you know, like Sunday morning, easy like Sunday morning, all of our girlfriends are like, so we don't have a Sunday morning anymore? Like you have to go and join Hash Church at 9 a.m.? You know, I know.

1:19:08SpeakerIt's like YouTube. YouTube is more important. YouTube. Okay.

1:19:13TonyYouTube. I scheduled my whole life around it. So now it's like date night becomes Friday night. The time to be with your girl is like Saturday morning, not Sunday morning anymore. So it's like you got to do everything you can to reschedule your whole life around hash church.

1:19:31SpeakerThat doesn't go away just when you get married.

1:19:35TonyWell, and it's also, but at the same time, it also becomes, for those that are married, it kind of becomes one of those things where you're like, it's like poker night with the guys, like they can't say anything. You're like, this is Hash Church. Like, so popular and there's been so many series that when you're like, well, I have to be on Hash Church. And they're like, okay, okay, I understand.

1:19:57TonyBut make time for me later type of thing. I know Bradley's, Nick Bradley's going through it. His girl's probably over it by now. No comment.

1:20:09BubblemanYeah, I hear you. I wanted to welcome Dr. David Allen. He just came in, MS Bluesman, that is Dr. David Allen. He's been away from chat for quite a while, so it's unfortunate that you don't have a microphone or a video camera. We need to fix that for sure, because we'd love to hear from you.

1:20:31SpeakerWe would indeed love to hear from you. You can Google... I want to point something out. I didn't know a video camera and microphone were optional instruments in that church until right now. Oh, they're definitely, definitely important. Definitely. So, I was lucky enough to be a judge at Chalice for Herb, and I... I found the ones I liked really fast, but now I'm getting to sit down.

1:20:56SpeakerI humidified them using those Bobita packs, and now they're all amazing. So I've been sitting here going through the 62 samples slowly, smoking the remainders of them. It's so nice.

1:21:08BubblemanPuff and join.

1:21:09SpeakerI love cannabis. I would have never guessed. No, it's true, yeah. I would never guess. You too. I think you'll be fond of it, Mark. I think it's going to be huge in your future. I'm gonna look into it, dude. I still wish you had your dreadlocks, man. Now that would be a hash church. Look, you would straight up look like... Everyone knows you so clean cut, man.

1:21:35BubblemanYou know, I put some of my old videos up on YouTube and people were like, what? Who's that? Long hair? They're like, how long did you have long hair? I'm like, uh, like 20 something years.

1:21:47SpeakerRight? Like most of my adult life. Just over half of my life.

1:21:52HoratioDude, it's funny. Every time I see you with that long hair, I look and I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to hang out with that guy.

1:21:58SpeakerHe just seems like he's going to tell me I can make the jump that I can't make to see if I make the jump. He has that come on, buddy, do it face. I think he got responsible when he loses the hair, but it just seems like big jumps, big ski, big smoke, big chocolate. I don't know about this guy. Playing the point of optimistic dreadhead mon.

1:22:22Etienne FontanThat's funny. Why did you cut your dreads there, Bubble Man?

1:22:27BubblemanYou know, when I cut my dreads originally, it would have been 1998, and I was busted at a roadblock with about 16 and a half pounds of herb and like six grand cash. And it was, you know, definitely not what most people would have thought. I literally was helping Hillary Black from the Compassion Club. They had people driving their cars through the front of the Compassion Club and trying to steal the herb that they had in storage.

1:22:58BubblemanSo she asked me if I could store some herb. And I ended up going to a roadblock one night, taking the herb from the Compassion Club back to the house. Hey, Mark, can you pull up Tony's picture real quick? Sure.

1:23:16SpeakerSorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. He's so...

1:23:19BubblemanI'm trying to click on his link here. It's just not working for whatever reason. When I click on it, it's... Oh, there it is. It's because he's on a phone. And the computer's having a hard time... There we go. What do you got there, Tony?

1:23:36TonyI got some orange creamsicle from MTG.

1:23:39BubblemanOoh, orange creamsicle. That just sounds proper.

1:23:43TonyIt's pretty nice.

1:23:45BubblemanI like the... What's the... Genetic.

1:23:52TonyYou know, this one was, this has got an interesting history, the orange creamsicle, because Jing knows like a second generation, so he's got like hundreds of different varieties of stuff. This is one that's kind of like, I would say it's kind of like the jelly, but it's got a creamy kind of orange to it. I've tried it one time from him, but there's a one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine leaves of Look how little it is in my hand.

1:24:23TonyRight? It's a very small little leaf. This is what I see as a plant that's gone from the wolf pack, if you will, down to Ola size. It's been miniaturized in its evolution. It's kind of interesting.

1:24:39Etienne FontanA Chihuahua genetic?

1:24:43TonyIt's a what?

1:24:44Etienne FontanA Chihuahua genetic?

1:24:46TonyWell, I don't know. I'm going to go up to that Swaziland. I'm going to go to that Swaziland and show you that thing. That thing is just gigantic. Hold on. It's probably 12 feet tall.

1:25:02BubblemanWeed! Ah, cannabis.

1:25:06TonyHere's the Swaziland. Look at this thing.

1:25:09Etienne FontanOh, yeah. There's an equatorial if I've ever seen one.

1:25:14TonySo, look. So the leaves much bigger. Look how thin. So this would be your, for those that we always talk about this thin leaf drug cultivars, this is what we're talking about. There's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

1:25:34TonyNLD.

1:25:34SpeakerNLD, narrow leaf drug variety.

1:25:37TonyYeah, and then look. So that same, you come right over here, and there's the difference.

1:25:44Etienne FontanOh. You got some OG here? What's that? Very broadly.

1:25:50TonyThat's the presidential kush. So that's the complete opposite of the two.

1:25:56Etienne FontanWhat makes it presidential?

1:26:00TonyI don't know. It's something that Django named. What makes you feel like a president? I guess it makes you feel like a president, like you're in complete control maybe. I don't know.

1:26:10BubblemanWhen you smoke it, you're on Air Force One.

1:26:13TonyYou're on Air Force One. Yeah, there's three more Swaziland. This one is really, I think this one's going to be good. And these are all, keep in mind, all these plants are going straight to resin and medicine. So all of this stuff is going into solventless extracts or hash rosin.

1:26:38SpeakerWatch it, Tony. How much pre-grow did you give them before you put them outside in those looking like 200-gallon pots?

1:26:45TonyOh, yeah, this was probably, God, this started months ago, three, four months ago. They've been vegging for a while. Everything's been kind of vetting for a while.

1:27:02SpeakerThe way that these are achieved is that people will culture their clones and their cuttings months and months before growing season begins, and they'll start the vegetation process indoors so that the roots can establish themselves. When they move these plants outside, they're about two to three feet high when they get transplanted into these pots with fresh soil and vermiculite and perlite and get ready to take on the sun, if I'm correct.

1:27:26SpeakerRight, Tony?

1:27:28TonyYeah, that's why when you guys saw in the beginning there was plants that were like 4 or 5 feet tall and 10 gallons and then those 10 gallons got moved to 40 until the roots really fill up and then you get them in like a 200 or a 400 depending on the size and that's exactly what you're seeing here. I'm trying to see if there's a 400 out here but...

1:27:50SpeakerThat's what gives the Northern Californians the growth boost in order to achieve, you know, what people here, you know, three, four, five, six, sometimes ten pounds a plant, depending on the strain.

1:28:02Etienne FontanHey, Tony, can you touch on what's your soil mix?

1:28:09TonyI don't know. To be honest with you, I've been in the processing facility for, God, months, so this has been some of my first time out here. I can find out though. I know that it looks like there's tons of perlite. You can definitely see the perlite. Something from, I know that the soil, because Jane goes out here second generation, I know that he's definitely sourced soil from somewhere locally or something.

1:28:44SpeakerIt certainly looks like he used a lot of perlite. Is that also vermiculite as well?

1:28:49TonyYeah, it looks like on the topsoil there's more.

1:28:51SpeakerAlright, so what he's done with the perlite is he's layered it down. It actually can help inhibit bugs because it creates a dry layer at top that they really don't have a good time nesting in so they'll go leave for easier pasture so to speak.

1:29:06TonyYeah, and it might be also, I think it's not a bad thing to put it on the dry on the top. I think that's what the point is to keep it so that roots are going down but also any kind of top Top breeding pests or anything like that would probably not want to stay on top, you know what I mean? Because it's just going to be dry.

1:29:28TonyIt's not going to be like a lot of moisture on top, so you're not going to see like a lot of, I don't see any bugs or any gnats or anything at all.

1:29:38SpeakerDry medium is very good if you're trying to control soil-borne pests. Keeping the right watering is actually crucial.

1:29:48TonyYeah, I'm not on the grow side on this one. I'm a consultant on the extract side. So it's a little different for me to see as well. I think it's pretty cool though because, you know, the bigger you can grow healthier resin like this outside in the sun, the better it's going to be for when we do extractions, you know. So that's really my job takes over when this is done.

1:30:12Etienne FontanDo you know what your parts per million for the watering cycles are?

1:30:21SpeakerWell, that would change at different times, ATN, you know, depending on the rate of growth.

1:30:26TonyYeah, I see different sizes out here. So you have some that were staged bigger, and then you have some that were staged like a little bit smaller. I can see them in the background. So it really kind of depends. But yeah, I don't know anything about all that stuff yet. This has kind of been my first couple times out here. I was out here the other day, but There's all kinds of security checkpoints and if you look at the Ukiah Daily Journal, they've been actually doing a fairly good job this time covering like the local support and giving us a lot of local support and what's going on.

1:31:03TonyIn the beginning they really weren't sure but I think now they got the full picture but there's like 26 different kind of security personnel and security checkpoints.

1:31:17SpeakerThere was a really nice article that was written up by, I think it was the Ukiah Journal about, I saw the Prana program was mentioned in it and they were talking about the big grow up there and it was a really good article.

1:31:30TonyYeah, so the security that's, I mean, you have to go through the whole, I mean, it's definitely stricter, it's definitely a stricter ordinance than anything in the state has, it's a, it's the same kind of, ooh, look at this one, it's the same kind of, Uh, or, uh, regulations that are kind of similar to, like you'd see in Colorado, um, where you have support badge licenses, background checks, fingerprints, you know, uh, felony checks, and, um, and then you have to get, uh, then you have to, uh, obviously have your script, become a member, go through their collective.

1:32:07TonyThe tribe has a collective called the PCC, Pinoleville Cannabis Collective. And so it's run through a collective and the same kind of systems they have here, but then they added a lot of the security features and protocols that you'd see in Colorado. So it took me a minute to get a badge just to even come out here because there's security checkpoints and then there's all kinds of personnel that's checking your badge and relaying it.

1:32:38TonyIt's pretty kind of wild, crazy to think that way, you know? It's just different. But, I mean, you have to understand, like, that's the difference in trying to do something for medicinal and you're trying to run it through a non-profit and you're trying to turn this resin into medicine and get it to patients. You know, you got, and if you're on tribal land, you got to, in my opinion, I think you need to be a little bit more strict, not lenient.

1:33:07TonyOtherwise, you know, things could happen like what we saw on the paper with Murdoch.

1:33:16BubblemanYeah, that's a big one.

1:33:19TonyYeah, that one's a nice one. I like these little fat ones. Look at this thing.

1:33:26SpeakerYou know, I'd like to, you know, something you guys were talking about when I came in and it was about the tip inhibitor of the plants and why all these look like Christmas trees as opposed to bigger bushes. And when I was living up in Northern California, Richard Davis, you know, rest his soul, he actually had a very interesting technique with these plants. So instead of these plants being completely vertical, when they hit around four or five feet, he would actually attach a milk crate to them.

1:33:52SpeakerAnd he would weight it down with rocks and he would actually water the soil really well because he was in the ground, in the greenhouse. And we would lay the plant down and it would cause all the side branches, the lateral branches to start shooting up and competing as a top cola. And he would have these absolutely massive round plants. At the end of growth season that I couldn't even put, three of us wouldn't be able to stand around it with their fingertips tip to tip.

1:34:21SpeakerThe plant would just be so absolutely round and massive, all coming from the main stem. And then when he would harvest it, he would still have this kind of round carcass that looked like a skeleton hand, and he'd put that on top of the truck and run around telling cops it was hemp and explaining to them how to use this as a marijuana. But that's how he would do it.

1:34:44Etienne FontanHe would guarantee three and a half pounds minimum per plant doing it that way too.

1:34:50TonyThis is... Yeah, I was going to say the one thing that I noticed that...

1:34:56SpeakerSorry, Tony.

1:34:57TonyYeah, so you see this like... And I agree with you. There's just... So there's a big lot of space between these plants because I think the way Django's doing this is there's a pole scrog system and then there's bigger poles that go on the ground that go wider than it and you do double or triple... You start with the plant and it looks like he's going outwards.

1:35:18TonySo, it's an interesting way to do it and, I mean, he pulls 10 to 15 pounds of plant. So, and this is, we're just looking for, this is going to be all resin. So, I think it's going to be, I think we're going to have some nice dry sift, some full melt, flower rosin, all kinds of stuff from this. So, it'll be good.

1:35:41SpeakerLooks beautiful. Thank you for the tour, Tony. This is like, Yeah, it makes me so happy.

1:35:49TonyYeah, I mean, you know, it's still a little scary. We're just consultants to the tribe and like, you know, like I have my part and it's really about implementing the Prana line and then what we're calling a tribal pack and the sacred series which each one of those extracts will represent a different brand with a different extract. So, Dry Sift, Turp Rosin, Hash Rosin, Flower Rosin, and Full Melt is completing the Tribal Pack, or the Sacred Series as we're calling it from here.

1:36:23TonyAnd so they're, you know, we've got different things lined up for it. So this should be, sorry I got distracted.

1:36:36SpeakerI'm just seeing like different varieties. It's really cool.

1:36:42TonyBut yeah, so that's what it's really all for. I mean, this is all going to resin, which for the first time in my life, I'm still kind of blown away that I'm like, okay, this is what we're going to be processing. It's pretty good.

1:36:55Cannabis ReverendSo I wanted to get back on to what Horatio was talking about, about really wanting to have just all per... Thank you for joining us today.

1:37:22Cannabis ReverendAnd they all have uses, you know. I think that, you know, the very bottom stuff, a lot of people will make what they call food grade BHO out of that kind of stuff, and it still has cannabinoids, but I think that's what you need to be using for activated LHO type stuff ratio, you know, where you're stripping everything away from it anyways. So you're just kind of utilizing cannabinoids The full plant for whatever it is.

1:37:51Cannabis ReverendThe buds, obviously, people really like to smoke the nicest flowers. I like to process the sugar leaf and just the sugar leaf itself into bubble hash because I think that that's the best material for that. The little buds that are too small but still have nice turp content, those are good for making an oil like your LHO or You know, whatever. But I think that, you know, you guys have a point that if you've got your...

1:38:26Cannabis ReverendBest resin head that's on the top of the plant, you know, a lot of people are going to seek that. But I think that, you know, because it's obviously going to have the most potency. You're going to have the most amount of resin being produced from that finest piece of the plant. But the reality is there's other pieces of the plant, you know, just as Tony's showing us right here, not all of that is going to be top big buds.

1:38:50Cannabis ReverendThere's little buds down there at the bottom of the process and We need to save those cannabinoids and get them out to the people.

1:38:57HoratioYeah, I, uh. Jamaica compared to the way Tony's growing, because Tony's in a scenario where we're all working with plant counts, but when everyone grows a plant two feet high and just lets it push all its potential out in a very short amount of space, they seem to be able to standardize things versus this plant with this multi-stratosphere potential in which when you're harvesting the bottom of the plant, the terpenes aren't even there to make the strain-specific effects.

1:39:27HoratioI guess it's a plant count limitation that produces these types of growing strategies that go against the grain to a degree when it comes to trying to standardize a medicine. I'm just trying to get the most genetic potential out of the plant. So damaging nutrient pathways to create more outlets for nodes is not a way to create the most fit plant.

1:39:51SpeakerYou know what, Horatio? I agree with you. And you know what? It's interesting. I really don't think that what we're looking at, as novel as it may be, is really the future of us growing medicine. It's going to look more like GW. It's going to be in a controlled environment. I mean, if birds can shit on your medicine, it's probably not medicine, is my point. You know, nobody wants defecation or caterpillar poop or Any of the things that exist in nature on their medical quality cannabis.

1:40:19SpeakerSo I believe that we're going to see also a Dutch Sea of Green because when you have plants this big you're going to have huge variations from top to bottom of cannabinoid content. Thank you for joining us.

1:40:45SpeakerThank you for watching.

1:41:08SpeakerBecause if you're really just trying to grow cannabis, what's the difference between me having 100 little branches or that plant that Tony's showing us having 100 little branches? It's just the ignorant law enforcement that sees it differently. Because it's going to come in, let's say, one meter space. It's just that I can do it more efficiently with small little branches that I propagate and root. And, you know, if If not, you've got to go the old school style where you grow one huge plant and you get as much as you can because you're dealing with a bunch of dumb cops who come in and they count your plants.

1:41:40SpeakerAnd it bothers me because you can collect wine. They don't count your wine bottles. You can collect guns. No one shows up and counts your guns. You can collect ammunition, swords, knives, all this stuff that no one comes and counts. Jay Leno, how many cars does this guy got? No one comes and says, too many cars, Jay. Cars run over people and you could run over somebody with all these cars so you can only have 12 cars.

1:42:06SpeakerSix cars like they're pickups and then another six cars that are fast. How's that? And that's what they're doing to us and I hate it because it's just so unproportional to equal rights. And when we get beyond this bullshit of I can have six plants, I can have 12 plants, and we get to the place where wineries exist, where you can drive and they can have 200 acres growing, that's when we'll start seeing real innovation with cannabis on a level that we've never seen before.

1:42:36SpeakerWell, and you just nailed it, Todd.

1:42:38BubblemanThat's the reason why we haven't seen it.

1:42:47BubblemanCreating the most ridiculous of laws, the plant count.

1:42:51SpeakerAnd I want to point something out. When I got busted in 1997, I got busted with 4,116 plants was the count in my home. And

1:42:59SpeakerWhat bothered me is when 2015 passed, it had no plant limits. So I literally pitched it the way I just described it, as if I was a wine collector or a gun collector. Nobody was going to come and count my collection. But I was wrong because only in pot are we going to invent these crazy freaking Martian rules and come in and say, dude, you've got too many flowers.

1:43:20SpeakerWe've got to lock you up for a 10-year mandatory minimum because you're like this rampant florist. But no, if I was a gun collector, I'd still be in my Bel Air home, ironically. It just doesn't make much sense. And we're not going to get anywhere until literally these plant limits are something that we all acknowledge as stupid. They're flowers. We should be able to grow as many flowers as we want.

1:43:44BubblemanAbsolutely. It's interesting. There was a guy in Jamaica at one of the conferences. Tony will remember this guy, actually. And you know what? Power to him, because he was awesome. He was very intense. And he was basically saying that there couldn't be plant counts, that he needed two pounds a day to juice. How about this?

1:44:08SpeakerCan I point something out? If you have more plants, it gave me as a grower the opportunity to not have to spend my time nursing plants that maybe got a virus or got eaten by a bug when I was looking, you know, eating dinner or something. Whatever. It gave me the opportunity to grow healthy plants because I wasn't, you know, worrying about, oh, I only have six plants.

1:44:27SpeakerYou know, I was like, shit, I'll just make more. They're plants. I mean, Thank you for watching.

1:44:51SpeakerYeah, that was old. Yeah, that was around a long time ago. Remember the Green Goddess too that went with it?

1:44:58BubblemanThe Green Goddess came later. I thought the Money Tree was cooler in the sense that he really like, he produced the whole, they actually made a movie and it was, it came out and I just thought that was a...

1:45:10Etienne FontanIt was like 92, 93, no, 93 or something like that. It was terrible.

1:45:15SpeakerYeah, it was blatantly honest, you know, and that's what I appreciated in it too because it was blunt. And, you know, for a lot of people, I mean, I'm never going to deny it. I grew up in a place literally called Pawtucket. I joke and call it Pawtucket, but it's a native Indian name, Pawtucket. But, you know... The cannabis gave me a way out of poverty. I'll always have reverence for what it did for me.

1:45:43SpeakerIt gave me food. It gave me shelter. It's helped me out. I know that legalizing it is going to change the scope of the way we as little cottage growers trade it and get rewarded for our efforts. I applaud the day that cannabis prices dropped to, you know, $10 an ounce or less, and I hope that it floods the hands of so many, because if it does for others what it's done for me, which has basically helped me, you know, eat, sleep, calmed my life, you know, rested my pains, and made my overall life better, yeah, I wish that on everyone.

1:46:18SpeakerI sincerely do.

1:46:22SpeakerWell, I follow that for sure.

1:46:24BubblemanIt's a beautiful, wonderful thing. Yeah, I wanted to... Go ahead.

1:46:28TonyGo ahead. No, I just wanted to comment on the branch stuff that we were talking about and cannabinoid profiles because we did a lot of testing in the old place I was at, the first company at River Rock that I was at before. In the greenhouses, we actually, this particular plant is going to get, it'll probably get halfway down the aisle wide. Just based on the way it is.

1:46:59TonyAnd you have to remember that the sun is moving. So this particular branch is getting hit from a morning, from a certain angle, from a certain sunlight every day. And as that plant, as that sun moves up, it goes over the plant. And what you'll notice is that a lot of the side branches will be just as big as the top branches in many of these cases.

1:47:19TonyAnd in our greenhouses in Colorado, we saw that with OGs, with cushions, with A lot of the plants that we spread out in the same kind of concept made it wide. And so if you have a six-pound plant, your average three to six pounds of plant in the summertime, then your... Do we lose his volume, Mark?

1:47:50SpeakerHis mic is off. Is my mic off?

1:47:55BubblemanWe can hear you now.

1:47:57TonyOkay, so when did I get cut off?

1:47:59BubblemanJust about 10 seconds ago, you put your finger over the mic accidentally.

1:48:04TonyOkay, so essentially what we did was we studied taking samples from the top, the middle, and the bottom from the greenhouses in summertime, and we found a 2-5% variation, you know, trying to test it the best we could with the labs that were there in Colorado, but giving a top, middle, and bottom, we did a lot. And then looking at, obviously you can't look at the terpene profile, but what I liked mostly about greenhouse or even outdoor is that it's quite the opposite in the sense that a lot of the plant coverage from the sun is getting the same type of size buds that it's on the side or even on the lowers.

1:48:48TonyYou have the inners that are different than the lowers or the outside, but definitely the outside of the plant gets hit a certain way. And I think what dictates that more than anything Is the time of year and where you're located. So if you're in Canada versus Denver versus California versus Jamaica, you have a certain intensity of light that's going to happen. So if you're in a climate that's 12-12 and the sun's intense all the time, that sun spectrum is going to hit this plant from morning to night in a certain way and produce a certain amount of resin and produce a certain amount of terpene profile, especially on the terpenes.

1:49:24TonyAnd so if you're trying to grow in the wintertime in Denver in a greenhouse, then your plants are going to go from, say, three pounds a plant to a pound a plant or three quarters a pound a plant because of the sun. Even with Light Depot, your sun intensity and the spectrum that's being pushed upon that plant is completely different. So in California, everything's growing in a different way here than it would be, say, in Denver.

1:49:53TonyAnd so the light, the way the environment is being, you know, 80 to 95 degrees sometimes or an 85, pleasant 85 all the time during the day and getting down to 68, 70 naturally every day is what this plant's going through. And so that dynamic range between the 15% range day and night, the dryness at night or the dryness during the day and the light intensity For how long and for where it's located is what's going to produce your profile.

1:50:31TonySo this sun is a lot different than Denver.

1:50:37Etienne FontanWhat's your elevation there, Tony?

1:50:41TonyHold on a second. I'll tell you. I've got it on my phone.

1:50:47Etienne FontanThat's Mark's question, but you can't probably see this writing down, so I figured I'd ask.

1:50:52TonyThank you. The elevation here is 530 feet.

1:50:59Archive Seeds530.

1:51:00TonyWant to know the barometric pressure?

1:51:07Etienne FontanGo for it.

1:51:09TonyThe atmospheric pressure here is 997 MB.

1:51:14SpeakerTMI, Tony, TMI.

1:51:16Etienne FontanWhat's your T point, sexy?

1:51:19TonyBut no, what I was going to say is the whole reason about that is so what I'm doing in the processing center, which is set up for members and other collectives for us to process now, utilizing just hydraulic pressure, you know, the pressing. So we're doing everything, flowers, smalls, we're doing aged buds, aged trim, aged large buds, fresh trim, fresh smalls, fresh large buds. And we categorize them into different medical purposes or products.

1:51:55TonySo I'm even using a PranaFat as a leaching instead of alcohol to recapture everything that we press out. And so that'll be a base that we'll refine and clean into the topical line. And then we'll be adding hash rosin and flower rosin to that. So I've got multiple uses, kind of like a, Like a placement, you know, like the same kind of grid for Prana would be a grid into processing.

1:52:21TonySo that takes a long time to look at the resin. So do you freeze it and tumble it? Do you wash it? You know, do you activate it first?

1:52:31SpeakerCan I ask a question, Tony? If you might have the answers. Do we have any tables that show the breakdown of CBD acid in a plant before it's processing? So like THC turns to CBN over time. Do we have any information about CBD organic decomposition?

1:52:52TonyThere's very little out there. There's more on THC to CBN like you just said. And then there's...

1:52:59SpeakerThere is a study that exists. A study exists. I posted it as a comment on a thread on Strain Man's Facebook page about a month or two ago. The kinetics of that are known. It's slightly higher than the temperatures and the kinetics for decarboxylation of THC. So if I remember the data without looking at it directly, I think it just took slightly longer. My question is not so much if the CBA breaks down into CBD, which it does in a sense over time and heat.

1:53:35SpeakerIt's so much as does the CBD turn into, like THC goes into CBN, does CBD turn into X? CBN? I believe so. Yeah. There's what's called, okay, so there's what's called. It's not just I believe so, but what does, like I could say, I believe THC turns into something. What is that? It is CBN. So what is it that CBD turns into if it has an organic decomposition?

1:54:04SpeakerYeah, so this was reviewed in two of the textbooks that are well known to the people in this room. So two textbooks describe the kinetics and the degradation of CBD and then going to CBN, just like THC. I believe that this is known, and the reason why I said I believe, because I've read it, I'll come back with the references and the data for you. Yeah, there's also something else.

1:54:30SpeakerThank you. If anyone else has information, too, I would appreciate it.

1:54:34Etienne FontanHey, Tony, quick question. How far away from the ocean are you, approximately?

1:54:40TonyOh, an hour and a half or more, yeah.

1:54:46TonyWe're not close to the ocean. Yeah. Yeah. But I was going to give you some information on that. So when I break down THC to CBN, there is a CB, is it CBL or CB, yeah, or CB, I think CBC is a degradation indicator of THC to CBN. So when I convert THC to CBN, there's like a 2% CBC or CBD, CBL.

1:55:16TonyThat's registering that shows you that you actually could be degraded and transferred. CBD also has a trace marker. So that's what I think you're asking for. So you can go from CBDA to CBD and then that turns, that can turn into CBN at like, so it's almost about, I think it was a, like I'm with Mark on this one. I think it's like 390. Fahrenheit.

1:55:42SpeakerAt combustion temperatures, so if you were to measure this on a GC or if you were to measure the off gas of what comes off the nail, it'll likely be CBN because at those temperatures, it will convert.

1:55:56HoratioCan I throw a quick note in there? So when people are processing hemp for children and then cooking the shit out of it in the name of standardized decarboxylation, and this was my thing with CBN, I'm like, are people just feeding these kids CBN and not knowing it? And is CBN, again, this new in-between between THC and CBD when it comes to the types of things it addresses?

1:56:20SpeakerIt's not new. It's definitely been that way, you know, and the truth of the matter is that we usually do vape or heat stuff. So the truth is that we're seeing a different profile. So if somebody tests some stuff at GCMS... We're going to get a different effect like was pointed out by Sir Watson because it's more like GC because when we put it on this, we're acting more like a gas chromatograph heating up the sample than we are like liquid and capturing the entire essence of what it is we're partaking.

1:56:53SpeakerSo the way that we're getting it, and then also handling is something that really shouldn't go understated, especially now with edibles. Some people were talking about a contest that recently went on and that they received the edibles two weeks before they gave them to the judges. Some of the handling in those 14 days wasn't immediately put in a freezer or put in refrigeration. This is not just small nuances when you have molds and things and yeast and stuff that can grow.

1:57:25SpeakerIt's a food product. You know, and I really think that this is another part of regulation that we're going to understand because we know that by heating up these things that they're changing. These cannabinoids are changing. So what is the end user getting becomes, I think, actually a really good question.

1:57:43TonyWell, and the other thing with that is, so when you're, you know, the difference between that hemp and, say, Rich cannabis is, you know, I explained it to somebody else one day, I was like, what if I gave you an orange that you couldn't taste and you couldn't smell? I just gave you a dead orange. It's a dead fruit, right? No smell, no taste, no modulation effect from the fruit.

1:58:12TonySo the difference between hemp CBD as an industrial byproduct versus, say, rich CBD derived from cannabis that's alive, it's live versus dead. Your medicine's either alive or it's dead. And that goes the same with raw foods. And so there's specific reasons why one would use or degrade. And so when you're looking at test scores, and it's important, so an HPLC is not going to reach 140 degrees Celsius in its testing.

1:58:43TonySo you're not going to start seeing 140 and 180 Celsius, which is what's required to degrade and turn C to CBN or CBD to CBN. And so what you're looking for in an HPLC is when you see that you have, say, you started with a 60% THC A oil, you've activated it, and now you're showing signs of, say, 58% THC and 2% THCA, so you know you've almost gotten it taken out or converted.

1:59:14TonyAnd then let's say you convert that with a 10% loss, because that's usually what happens, 10-15% from THC to CBN,

1:59:22TonyNow if you convert that, then you're left with 50% CBN and say 3% THC and you know you're almost all the way there, but there's going to be another thing in there that's 1% and that's going to be your CBL if I'm not mistaken and CBL registers in that formulation and you can never get CBL, it's not going to show up on an HPLC. The temperature to get CBL and the time it takes is Tremendous.

1:59:51TonyAnd that HPLC is not going to do that. So when you see that you're converting correctly, you have a cannabinoid byproduct in that transfer, if you will. CBL is an indicator that you've taken your THC, degraded it, it's converted to CBN, and it's leaving this little breadcrumb or footprint or fingerprint behind so you can see that. And if you take just dead leaves and you do the same process to that, you can convert from CBGA Down to CBC.

2:00:22TonySo all of these things have heat, time, age, degradation, and they're created for certain purposes. But if you're looking to make medicine and you're using CBN, that's like what I'm doing with the P4, is I'm taking 50% CBN and 50% live CBD with its terpene profiles to try to use that for muscle spasms, insomnia, post-traumatic stress disorder, Things like that. So small doses do certain things and large doses do certain things when you're getting into compounding cannabinoids specifically for medicinal reasons.

2:01:00TonySo I just wanted to chime in on that because you will see that as you're testing and doing things.

2:01:11BubblemanWell, thanks for the knowledge drop there, Tony. I was just reading the chat. Tons of people in chat right now. 715 viewers in the room. Hey, can I talk about that?

2:01:21SpeakerI was just reading it too. And to everybody that's listening, I'm actually working on my next book right now. It's called Grow Medicine. And it has a piece by Dr. Lester Grinspoon in it. It's called Caneopathic Medicine, and in it, he talks about a very interesting concept where he feels that homeopathic and allopathic medicine are basically established branches of medicine, and all these new cannabinoid medicines are coming along, and they're only being derived from one source, because cannabis, or THC, I should say, is unique to the cannabis plant, whereas comparatively, dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, is found in over 20 Two dozen plus varieties safely of plants.

2:02:05SpeakerTetrahydrocannabinol is only found in one plant. And because all of these medicines that are cannabis and cannabinoid based are coming from the cannabis plant, he feels that they should have their own branch. And then he talks about what he calls caniopathic medicine. And I believe just like Dr. Grinspoon was in the 60s and early 70s, you know, four decades ahead of us, I still think he is now at 87 years old.

2:02:31SpeakerAnd that's a great piece I got. And then also Rob Clark wrote a piece for me called Fragrant Medicine, which is all about terpenes and everything he knows about terpenes. It is a follow-up from Hashish Revision 2, where he actually lists all the different terpenes that are in cannabis. And now it's an update of basically that terpene research. And also Mel Frank, who's like my hero as a kid.

2:02:58SpeakerI got my first Mel Frank book when I was all of 13 years old. I traded it for a bag of weed and I came home and cleaned up my closet and planted my seeds and forever changed my life because of the Mel Frank book. But he wrote a really nice article for me about harvesting and included some photos and everything. And he's actually doing the editing on my book for me.

2:03:21SpeakerSo it's kind of a dream come true. But we'll probably see it done by the end of the year. So everyone that was writing saying I should do a Kickstarter and stuff, thank you. But it's pretty much almost done. Nice, dude. That's awesome.

2:03:36TonyYeah, I think those three people are Those three people and some of the people on this panel like yourself and Bubble Man were my biggest influences. Those three individuals had so much information. Mel Frank was the first, that was the first book I read in like 96 or 7 and then kind of followed you and what happened and it was, the 90s was an interesting time. It was very volatile and even though it's volatile now, I can't imagine what you guys went through when I was just 18, you guys were like, out there, you know, I was like, Jesus, those guys.

2:04:16SpeakerYou know, though, I didn't know better. You know, when I got into it, it was like a little kid that was into, you know, I had a motorcycle at the time, and I was just into models. I would build things when I was in the hospital beds. They would, you know, get me little testers, models, and I would sit there, because you were bed-bound, and I would do little hand stuff, you know, with instructions, putting together projects.

2:04:35SpeakerAnd when I got the Mel Frank grow book, and he had that diagram of the fluorescent light hanging by the pulleys, On the little wood bench with the pots and the timer and the water thing, I literally duplicated what I saw in the photo to a tee. I found, it's a funny story because when I went home and I read the book, I found the fluorescent lights in my grandmother's basement.

2:04:58SpeakerShe used them over her shop. I found the pulleys. They were where the dryer was because we didn't use the laundry lines anymore because she had a dryer. I actually found the watering can, the following pots, and the soil in the shed because she grew her own garden. And I took the timer out of the front picture window, which you didn't notice for a while because I used to have to go downstairs at sunset and turn on the damn light for her and then turn it off when she was done.

2:05:23SpeakerBut that's how I got the timer. And I actually grew in my grandmother's attic For about a year until she finally realized I was growing herb. She came upstairs to wake me up one day and my plants would cycle from 8 to 8. So it would go off from 8 a.m. and come on at 8 p.m. And she came up at like 7.59, 55 seconds and my closet was glowing.

2:05:47SpeakerAnd it was during the time when ET was selling M&Ms out of a glowing closet and she freaking lost it on me. And as soon as she went to touch me in the bed, the timer clicked off. And she screamed, someone's in your closet. And I was, no one's in my closet. But when I opened the door... And I reached down and I clicked the timer. She heard the light click and she goes, that's my timer.

2:06:10SpeakerAnd then the light started flickering on because it was an old fluorescent back then. And she looks up and she goes, that's my light. Those are my pots. That's my watering can. And I was like, yeah, all I had to buy was the fertilizer. You had everything else. And she was like, Do you take these outside? And I said, no. Because they were about six feet tall because I didn't know better.

2:06:31SpeakerI just kept raising the lights, you know, as they got taller. And she's only four foot eleven. She's a little Italian lady. And she's looking at it for a minute and the leaves are as big as her hand. And she said, is this marijuana? And I said, yes, Grandma, this is marijuana. And she was like, what are you going to dip it in? I said, I'm not going to dip it in anything.

2:06:51SpeakerShe goes, well, what are you going to spray on it? And I said, I'm not going to spray anything on it. And it was all in flour at the time. And it was all buds. And I showed her the crystals. She picked a great time to see the garden. And I was like, I'm not going to do anything. I'm going to cut it and dry it and smoke it.

2:07:05SpeakerAnd she said, Todd, if it was that simple, it wouldn't be illegal. And I, it always struck me. I never knew, I was like, holy shit. But she let me keep the plants, which is really hilarious. And then, and then, so I had to go to school. I'll end the story, but it's funny how people get attached to shit. Because she let me bring them down to the basement and put them on a pallet and stick them, like, behind her old drapes.

2:07:29SpeakerI swear she designed the first grow tent. But I put fans in there and I did it. And she would water them when she would go downstairs and do the laundry. And then one night they were all finished. I cut all the plants down, brought them up and harvested them. I got up the next day to go to school and my grandma was hot. And I mean hot.

2:07:48SpeakerAnd I'm like, what's the matter? She goes, why did you kill all those plants? And I was like, oh, they were finished. She goes, they were perfectly healthy. I was like, yeah, you did great. She was like... I can't believe it. And I was like, man, that's what happened. She goes, oh, bullshit. You could have cut a couple of their buds off and just left the rest.

2:08:04SpeakerAnd I was like, man, that's not how it works. She goes, oh, no, what do you do? I said, well, you plant more seeds. She goes, oh, you start all over? Oh, come on. And I was like, oh, crap. It was so cute. And then she got mad and said she's going to grow her own plants, and I couldn't touch them. Because... It's amazing how they were not, she felt like they were hers, you know.

2:08:25SpeakerSo I did plant more plants and you know it was groovy again, but they really become a beautiful part of our lives. I joke with people that I learned more about balance and proportion in my life through growing than I did through smoking because there was no lessons in junior high or sixth or fifth or fourth grade or high school or college. They really taught you how to get your shit together, how to plan for something you're going to want three months from now, how to get together all the parts and nutrients, and how to care for something, but not how to overcare for something.

2:08:58SpeakerIt was like none of these real life lessons in school that I could pick up on, but growing cannabis taught me how to do that. And it taught me how to be patient. It taught me how to have perseverance. It taught me that I'd be rewarded. I mean, if I grew more pot, I would just get more reward. It wasn't like I worked at some shitty job for six months, and I went and I asked my boss politely for a raise, and he laughed at me and told me to go away.

2:09:22SpeakerMother Nature didn't do that. It was like she's always watching over my shoulder, and if I busted ass, I got more. It was simply that simple. And it gave me... The ability to tune into really doing my best at all times because I think sadly we get into these little situations where people get jobs where they get paid the least amount of money and in return they do the least amount of work.

2:09:43SpeakerBut when you're a gardener, You do the most amount of work because you want the most amount of reward and you literally learn how to passionately work for yourself because there's no middleman. You will absolutely be rewarded if you put your time, your effort, and energy into it. And I love what cannabis, in a sense, it was my greatest teacher.

2:10:06BubblemanIn a sense, I would say it was absolutely one of your greatest teachers. I can agree that it was definitely one of my greatest teachers. It taught me, I felt like I was you saying the last part of your story. All of what I got from cannabis, allowing me to escape the slavery of a job, all the while being able to grow a plant that I loved, produce a product that I just got to roll, you know, you could roll up to parties and Thank you for watching.

2:10:56SpeakerI want to just finish that, because not to be weird, a lot of people come at me and others, ATN, Tony, and Omar, with all these grand business plans. The days of profiteering, I believe, are coming to a quick end. The people that tell me they want to invest a lot of money into growing and equipment and stuff, I usually tell them, you'd be better off investing in the lettuce, because lettuce is just as legal as cannabis is going to be, and people consume probably just as much of it on multiple meals a day all the time.

2:11:25SpeakerAnd, you know, it's just another agribusiness. And when the bottom drops out of this, the profits are going to drop out of it, too. And efficiency is going to be key to the success of anyone's garden. And if you don't have an efficient garden that's very productive, you're really going to be behind the mark in a great way. And that is bound to happen right now. There's no ways around it, I think.

2:11:48HoratioSo Todd you'd agree that I mean that's kind of like guess why I have that beef with the way people have been forced to grow because when everything falls apart they don't have strategies in which they can say I can produce an 18 inch tall plant that is 100% cola, 100% consistent from top to bottom and the entire grow goes that way. I kind of had to cave into certain commercial strategies because the efficiency and the deep thought put into how to get something that's standardized over and over and over again.

2:12:22SpeakerCan I throw this out to you though, Horatio? I mean, you know, back in 1997 when I came back from Amsterdam, I had all this enthusiasm. The law had changed. I believe it made a difference. I may have been as naive as I was ambitious in the sense of thinking that the law changed and it meant something. My bad, 20 years later I'm still being prosecuted for growing weed, but whatever.

2:12:43SpeakerBut when I came back here, I set up for myself what would be a great place to do research. I had 68 lights going. I had a very clean setup that I was able to really do what I dreamed of. I felt like I could, and they came and they smashed it. And the problem is that this is what's happened to people that's tried to set up.

2:13:04SpeakerI'm just one of the millions that they've stepped on. It's just I'm one of the louder people they've stepped on, maybe. But they've come and crushed us, so you haven't been able to see the type of things that would normally exist in agribusiness applied to cannabis. Because if I go buy, you know, 200 acres of land and throw down three dozen greenhouses and start growing 20,000 plants as if I was trying to propagate lettuce or tomatoes or peppers Or anything else that we were going to consume, they'll come and freak out on me.

2:13:39HoratioI guess that's kind of where I'm caught in the I always want to develop processes that when expansion is possible, the efficiency designed into them is key and actually succeeds long term. So I totally get, hey look, they've got guns pointed at six plants and somehow they don't think of canopy space. If the law changed from Thank you for watching.

2:14:21HoratioCan I say something, though?

2:14:22SpeakerIn California, I would like to point out, there was a case called Patrick Kelly. He was a gentleman out of Los Angeles who got prosecuted for literally having seven plants when six plants supposedly was the limit he was allowed to have. And the Los Angeles County prosecuted him, and he appealed. They convicted him for breaking SB 420. It went to a three-judge panel, which is our appellate court.

2:14:46SpeakerAnd all three judges looked at the law and looked at where does the number six come from? And they traced it back to the California Legislative and all three judges unanimously agreed that The California legislation had no rights to limit the scope of the voters' constitutionally passed initiative. So the number 6 and 12 in California was void. Well, LA didn't like that, because in California law it means that only then limits the prosecutors in Los Angeles.

2:15:19SpeakerSo what Los Angeles then did is they appealed the appellate court to the California Supreme Court, which consists of nine judges. And in a rare instance, and anybody who's sitting here watching can go look this up, all nine judges did the same thing the three judges did, which was look and see where the number six came from. They felt it was arbitrary, and they all ruled that the lower court was correct.

2:15:43SpeakerSo now nine judges all unanimously agreed with the three judges and sent it back. And now in California, there are no plant limits. Technically, In this state, and people don't really realize that their rights that they have, but this imposing sense of canopy limit, plant limit, this impeding disaster where we're going to crush you at every moment is really not constitutionally legal. And if people realize that they could have as many pot plants as they could have wine grapes growing or anything else, guns in their collection, cars in their collection, Knives in their collection, peppers growing, tomatoes growing, avocados, trees, they are equal with those people.

2:16:25SpeakerAnd this is what we've got to start arguing for, which is equal protection under the law and not some distinctly different socialist, you know, forced socialism. Why are the pot clubs being forced to be non-profit and the dentists and the doctors and the places that are selling pharmaceutical drugs, they're all for profit. They all take big vacations on huge yachts and nobody cares, but if some kid goes and opens up a pot club, it's got to be non-profit and he can only grow under 8 by 8 feet, but the winery next door can have 400 acres in production and silos mashing grapes.

2:17:01SpeakerI just don't get it and I'm so sick of it and I hope that everybody here stops talking about plant limits And canopy limits being acceptable because what if they started doing that with tomatoes and grapes and stuff? We'd all starve.

2:17:18HoratioIt's funny because they just grow grapes, a single grape, straight up instead of growing a big bush with variable grapes. I'm, it's just, I guess it's that it, arming the cannabis industry with more, I mean we're supposed to be agriculturalists, we're supposed to be to a degree, you know, naturalists while we're leaning towards a plant versus a pill, so.

2:17:39SpeakerApple is a strong lobby in Washington D.C. and has a lot to do with the way things are, that's the reality of the situation.

2:17:49HoratioYeah, it seems like a lot of the great growers.

2:17:53SpeakerThat puts money and people in the right place to make sure that the laws are maintained just the way they are because they're fat and happy making a lot of money just the way things are right now. Hey, can I bring up something? You know, back in the day, Oprah got sued with this gentleman named Howard Limeman. He wrote a book called Mad Cowboy, and he was like a multi-generation rancher who went organic and then himself became a vegetarian vegan because he was so disgusted with the food industry.

2:18:22SpeakerAnd when he basically talked about beef, the beef industry in Texas sued him for meat libel laws. Because they defamed basically the character of their product, so they were able to say that you hurt our business when Oprah said she was never going to eat beef again. And she won, but my thought immediately was, what about veggie libel laws? I mean, they've been defaming cannabis globally for how long with misinformation and propaganda, and when are we going to hold them to account for it?

2:18:57SpeakerWho's going to defend cannabis? And that's really what needs to happen because this is, in a sense, a vegetable libel case. They are defaming our client, cannabis, with lies, propaganda, false information for decades, and we can prove it. So at that point, don't we get our rights back?

2:19:20BubblemanI like it. It's a good perspective. Slanderous is what they are. They're slanderers. Cannabis slanderers.

2:19:36SpeakerDid everybody see this story about the racketeering law that they want to use to not just bring down uh... the industry but also basically file uh... lawsuits to anybody who does business with people in the industry this is a law that was uh... developed to help bring down organized crime syndicates like the mob and there's actually a uh... what uh... street safe alliance or some washington dc-based group that's on behalf of two colorado businesses uh...

2:20:13SpeakerSueing not just the license holder themselves but everybody who does business with the license holder. And this is really unprecedented. It may be just a frivolous lawsuit but it seems quite spectacular because if you think about it, I mean, who the industry does business with is everyone from the water company to the electric company To the legal, to the web service, to the engineers, to the lighting, I mean everything that services the industry, every place where money goes, I mean is that really where this lawsuit can potentially reach?

2:20:54SpeakerSeems frivolous to me but again maybe a bunch of lawyers who are just trying to make a bunch of money, at the end of the day if they can basically Exercise the fact that they can use this what's called RICO law or RICO Act which was basically designed to bring out organized crime syndicates. They can basically outreach to any place that the industry does business with and that could be really detrimental to the communities that these businesses thrive in and support a healthy swath of the economy.

2:21:32SpeakerYou know, Mark, I got charged with RICO in 1995, summer of 95, in Ohio, my girlfriend and I, and they use it rather lightly, and they've been using it rather abusively for decades, since the 80s, really, and, um... You're still going to see, and I would love to point this out to people that are in cannabis, you're still going to see natural investigations happening for money laundering and international drug smuggling or international money laundering or tax evasion or any of these things.

2:22:02SpeakerThe cops are still going to do the investigations they do into regular companies, you know, like Comcast, Cable, Insider Trading. They're still going to look into pot companies. It's just that now our egregious behavior won't be the dispensing of the cannabis. It'll be how we handled our books. You know? How many times has BPG been audited, ATN?

2:22:25Etienne FontanOh, we've been audited multiple times. Four or five, easily. And then, yeah, I mean, the government went after my bank and after my landlord. So it's not so unprecedented. They didn't use RICO, but they're just using any way possible to harass and deal with it. So... Right now, for us, it's just never forgetting what's it about. It's about patience. I'm a patient. So I'm going to risk my freedom taking care of patients.

2:22:55Etienne FontanThat's it. I see it. I see exactly every day what it does and how it helps people. So what I do, I had to close down and move. I found another landlord. I found another place. Operated as a delivery service until I opened up again in 2012 and have been open every day since. And we're going to keep doing so. And even though the government went after me again, suing them, because if not, if we continue to take it, it's going to just continue to happen.

2:23:25Etienne FontanSo I'm suing not just for me, but I'm suing for everyone else so that you've got that right as well, so that you don't have to deal with the fucking oppression. You know what it's like to have to lay off 50 fucking people in this goddamn economy in 2012? Fucking gut-wrenching people. You know, people I love. These are patients. Had to throw them out into the fucking world because why?

2:23:46Etienne FontanI was 984 feet from a school I never had a complaint for. But because it was the arbitrary 1,000 feet, and if you actually walked it, it was over 1,000 feet, but the government went with the standard of, eh, property line to property line, it was 1,000, so you gotta go. After 12 years, I mean, gut-wrenching. Trust me. So, I'm fighting so that no one else has to deal with this shit, as well as Steve D'Angelo's fighting it with Harborside, because if we don't stand up and fight for our freedoms, exactly like you said, Mark, we're going to continue to be steamrolled over, so we still have to fight.

2:24:25Etienne FontanWe still have to be strong. I still have to pay fucking lawyers every goddamn month, tons of money, but that's the reality of doing business, people. If you want to do the fight and play it, it sounds sexy and it may look all fun and dandy, but It's the sleepless nights. It's laying off people in these terrible economies and you have to actually fight. I had to beg, borrow, and steal just to stay open and stay alive so that I could continue to have a business so that I could provide for at least the rest of my people.

2:25:01Etienne FontanFortunately, I stayed open and through dogged perseverance, I was able to hire many of those People back in time. I still haven't hired everybody back, but I'm getting there. But no one deserves to have to go through that, especially when you're taking care of patients. I'm a patient myself. I'm dealing with already my own issues and taking care of my people. You don't need any more of this.

2:25:26SpeakerWell, make sure on your way into court you mention that a co-conspirator on any case should be the state that issued the license. It's the state that issues the license that's now co-conspirator with anyone who they try to go after. And that's one thing.

2:25:43Etienne FontanMy city issued my license. So that's why my city is going to court and is actually, we're waiting on an actual feedback in court right now because the reality is they're trying to throw my city out even though my city issues my license. And my city gets 2.5% of my wholesale sale Thank you. Thank you.

2:26:31Etienne FontanI could have laid down and walked away like many others did, but instead I chose to stand my ground and fight for what I believe in because I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

2:26:42SpeakerCan I point out the very funny, very amusing July 15th Bureau of Office of Equalization that put out their headline on The California government tax site that says BOE chairman announces board of equalization will accept cash payments from medical cannabis business operators. So let me translate that into what it means to me. The California state will help you circumvent the problems of federal banking and potentially getting your money seized because they would rather you bring that shit to them in cash in a brown bag and drop that stuff off and then you're cool with them.

2:27:28SpeakerBecause they literally quote going back to the times of Al Capone and Al Capone not being able to pay his frigging taxes and the fact that he got prosecuted for tax evasion and not running liquor. How ironic. Everyone can go look that up. It's only at boe.ca.gov slash members slash Horton slash news slash 250 slash Horton Cannabis. What's particularly troubling about this thing that happened this week though, if you read what the attorney that's filing this lawsuit said, the racketeering lawsuit, he said, and I quote, we're putting a bounty on anyone who does business with the legal marijuana industry.

2:28:13SpeakerYou know, that we're putting a bounty on someone's head, that to me is a felony. That's a terroristic, that right there is terrorism.

2:28:25SpeakerThat is the word terrorism. He is terrorizing people by saying he's putting a bounty on people's head. That guy should be taken away and that's a felony. So it's ridiculous that he can make these kinds of statements. I think they're just trying to get more money, just attorneys looking for money.

2:28:49SpeakerYou know, not to sound like a total cynic, but I mean, when we tried to pass 19 and suddenly we were up against doctors who didn't want to go out of business and would have to go back to practicing actual medicine and wouldn't have this free ride from writing $200 and $100 doctor's notes to everybody that needed to be legal, so they were against it, and pot clubs that didn't want competition, they became against it, except for some.

2:29:13SpeakerYou know, and growers, they didn't want competition. They were against legalization. I think we're up against a lot more hypocrisy than we've ever really encountered or expected. You know, all the people I thought were on our side, you know, the doctors, the pot club owners, my fellow friends and growers, didn't share my points of view when it came to the price of pot dropping tremendously.

2:29:38HoratioTodd, how do you feel about the fact that it seems like our industry is polluted with an element that participates in cannabis, but its real aim is to always keep it in a degraded state? It's kind of why I had so many beefs about growing techniques that are forced out of legislation driving growing techniques and literally building weak growers for when competition, real competition occurs, people actually aren't equipped to compete, which is a good thing when it comes to

2:30:07SpeakerWouldn't you feel that going to these cannabis events, you're not really seeing many professional entities. You're seeing a lot of opportunists jumping in and making labels, and it's so easy to print up a logo and have your artistic friend do something that makes it look like it's a company, and next thing you know, you're a brand. It doesn't mean there's experience or professionalism behind it in the least, and it's easy to confuse a label.

2:30:31SpeakerYou see somebody's high end, and I don't want to hold anything up as an example, but You see, you know, something like that and you see Scentsy Seeds and you think, okay, those are equal. Well, the truth is Scentsy Seeds has been doing this for 30 years and, you know, it's been a multi-million dollar company for decades and has tons of, you know, product standardization and, you know, they're experts and they're so successful because they've been experts at it For the last three decades.

2:30:59SpeakerBut you don't know how much history another company has when you're walking by them at a Cannabis Cup event. And normally, you've got to realize most of the people that's coming out of the woodwork, five, ten years in this industry is a long time. I mean, I've been in it since the 90s. I don't know any of these... You know, people weren't talking like this. They weren't doing this stuff in the 90s.

2:31:17SpeakerThey were afraid to get, you know, the hammer smashed down on them. They were afraid of losing their job and getting outed. So all these new experts really just happened in... Really, in the last 10, 12 years, you've been seeing this, you know, since the turn of the century. And, you know, Mark's old school. He's 90s. Mila's old school. She's 90s. I mean, but when you look at it, our roots don't go back that deep.

2:31:40SpeakerI mean, to be truthful, I mean, the whole indoor growing industry started only in the 80s. Hippies only started hybridizing really in the 70s and late 60s. I mean, we only started smoking weed in the 40s and 50s. So we really haven't been at this that long when you think of Western civilization adopting what is coming on as a new culture paradigm.

2:32:00BubblemanI agree. It's one of the reasons I'm kind of excited, Todd, to potentially one day have my own brand Available down in the U.S. because there are so many brands that have just, you know, they bought the bags, they followed the instructions, they've created their own brands by basically, you know, like you said, a lot of companies. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's some good established ones that have been kicking ass, much like these dudes right here.

2:32:32BubblemanI've got to give them a shout out for sending me the nice swag recently, Tricom Heavy Extracts and the melts. But there are a lot of people, like you said, literally just getting a sticker, slapping it on a jar, and boom, you're a brand. And it's a little bit different from really focusing and doing something for decades over just kind of doing something overnight from reading a few internet posts and watching a few videos.

2:32:59BubblemanSo I think you agree.

2:33:02TonyI would love to chime in and tie both those things together. One on ATN. Hats off, bro. A lot of people don't go out there and express like what it is. People think that owning a collective or a center is like sitting at the pool and drinking margaritas and taking bong hits all day. And quite the opposite. And it's very stressful and taxing emotionally as an owner that's an owner-patient or owner-patient grower in that combination or owner-patient extract.

2:33:35TonyUm, extractionists. And so, most of the people that have the passion in this industry are coming from it from a medicinal, medical use, patient driven, uh, experience of their own and what it's affected in everyone's life. And the brand, in my opinion, has lost a lot of integrity in this industry in the sense that a brand is supposed to stand for integrity and quality and the vision.

2:34:04TonyAnd when you buy that brand in this particular type of industry, you're buying into quality. You're buying into what it stands for and knowing that those people or that person that's putting a brand on there has something to offer you. It's supposed to be value. So if somebody says, hey, I've got this really cool packaging and this really cool brand and I'm charging you $80 a gram, For this quote unquote wannabe hash rosin, and you're like, man, I just don't understand why this hash rosin is not the same as Bubble Man's hash rosin.

2:34:39TonyAnd the reason why is because individuals, like everyone that is on this panel, takes the extra step to make sure the quality of the actual resin in the medicine is at the highest potential standard for themselves, and they're willing to go to jail for you to get it. And that's like what the brand, in my mind, is standing for. And so there will be a day very shortly, my friend, Mr.

2:35:04TonyBubble Man, to where your brand and your quality and your vision will be hitting those shelves. And if you want to see that happen, it's going to happen very shortly after 15 years of people not even being able to get your brand. And so, you know, that's the opportunity and where I'm sitting right now. And that's what this collective's about, is working with other collectives to process or other members.

2:35:36TonySo if you're out there and you want the Bubble Man brand and you want Terp Rajan and Hash Rajan in your collective, you know, we're here to work with you. And that's what California's about. And it's extremely exciting because everything we're using is bubble bags. Like everything, from the screens we're pressing, from the bags we're, the resin we're washing, everything's coming from you, man. It's been an inspiration, and I can't wait to represent you in different places, you know?

2:36:10BubblemanWell, I can't wait either, dude. It's been a long time coming, and it's exciting, and really, you know, for me, I have to say that it was, it took all these years because that building of that, the First, the building of getting everyone to learn how to make proper water hash and how it took so many, you know, ten years and then almost another ten years to get it to the point where it's exploded and really you've got to almost give props to BHO because BHO took off with such an accelerated fire.

2:36:44BubblemanIt had a different energy behind it than bubble hash had. It had an energy behind it originally for the masses. That the profit was available to be recreated back in cannabis closer to the way it was after, you know, the medical thing happened both in the US and Canada. Prices dropped so exceedingly that I heard even the most insane pound prices in Florida because Cali was just producing so much herb compared to before that when Cali could have been producing all that herb.

2:37:13BubblemanBut yet BC was producing just a stupid amount of herb to bring down into the US. We stopped doing that when California really blew up. It was like California overnight decided we'll just grow all the weed that BC was growing. And it happened. And they all of a sudden had so much herb that it seemed like making oil was a way to get back a profit margin that would otherwise have pretty much disappeared.

2:37:40BubblemanAnd it was for all those people getting into BHO and not taking it to the top To find the best quality product that you can get and people that are really making it properly with the proper solvents, etc., etc. But the majority of people were ending up mildly disappointed after a year or two years or three years or four years. And after, you know, close to ten years, more and more people, I saw personally, coming back to water hash as something that would potentially, and it was, you know, for a good couple of years, it was always the same question.

2:38:17BubblemanCan I make a dab-able product? Is it dab-able? And it seemed like the thing that the BHO got people the most inspired about was the dabbing of it and how that BHO really created the dabbing culture. Sure, nowadays we have a solventless quiver, we have water hash and dry sift and rosin and all sorts of different products. It was still, that's just an interesting thing to look at, the patterns of it all.

2:38:48SpeakerI think it gave us a sense of awareness of cannabinoids and terpenes on a level we never saw before because when we mashed together the plant material, we squished all of those essential oils into the hash product that's what made, you know, a piece of hash a piece of hash. And now when we're taking even a piece of water hash and we're pressing it, and it's like expelled pressed oil, you know, coming out of the resin or the plant, the bud, And we're able to appreciate it on a level that is, you know, something that, you know, when you smoke a joint, it's not the same.

2:39:20SpeakerI mean, when you take a dab of those essential oils, it really is a different vibe. You know, it really elevates your cannabinoid levels instantly, and I can see why it's the way of the future. I mean, who would have thought squishing buds, but isn't that all we're really doing now, right? We're pressing the essential oils out of it. I'm actually going to do some photographs of some of the pieces of pot that we did because we were making rosin, and I was interested to see what the resin glands are like inside of this thing after we squished it.

2:40:00SpeakerI just haven't got around to it yet.

2:40:03BubblemanYeah, do a little macro photograph on the chips.

2:40:07SpeakerYeah, before and after, right, exactly. I think I'm going to have to cut this thing open. I don't really get access to it.

2:40:12BubblemanI did it years ago with a vaporizer and it was so cool. I shot a bud and then I vaped the bud in whole form and pulled it back out and shot the same part and it was literally, it was pretty nuts how the heads were just all gone.

2:40:28SpeakerYeah, that makes sense. Actually, I'm starting to realize I think the two samples that were handed to me were not flowers, they were water hash traps.

2:40:37BubblemanYeah, the way they look, those little squares that you had, I also thought that you had hash in your hand.

2:40:42SpeakerYeah, it is. It was water hash. You know, and I want to say this, you know, in a clarification. I don't really feel that pressing water hash is making rosin to the same extent as putting a fresh flower and, you know, a micron screen, you know, between parchment and, you know, doing what we were doing at... The Ben's Barcelona Hemp Museum in Barcelona, we were sitting there and he was pressing out those pieces from cannabis flowers and we were smoking those essential oils being pressed directly out of a fresh flower.

2:41:12SpeakerBecause when you're pressing water hash, you're already pressing something that's been rinsed Thanks for watching.

2:41:34BubblemanIf you say that like it's always going to be like that, then someone will hear it and say that's weird because that's not what happens with me at all. They might have a strain that's really got these alcohol soluble terpenes that are more like they wash through water and they're still present in the hash afterwards.

2:41:50SpeakerYes, absolutely. Press a piece of flour, you're going to get a, there's no way you're not going to get a way fuller effect because the flour is one fresher, it hasn't been dried out, you know, or maybe not, but it hasn't been dipped in water and mashed around. And I've made a lot of water hash and there's no way you're going to tell me that there's not terpene in that water because, you know, there is.

2:42:13SpeakerAnd that's what I mean. There's no middleman to steal our stuff away. I love that. But there's no middleman to steal our stuff away when we squish it right out of the flower.

2:42:23BubblemanYou can squish dry stuff too, and it's very, very also more similar to the flower rosin than, say, the bubble rosin.

2:42:34SpeakerHey, Marcus, this is a good place to ask. There was a question on the Facebook page on using salt water or alkaline in making water hash. Does anyone have any Do you have any experience or comments on that? Yeah.

2:42:51BubblemanYeah, you want to go ahead, Todd?

2:42:52SpeakerNo, no, you go ahead. I can answer it second.

2:42:55BubblemanOh, I don't have too much to add. I met a guy online who sent me a photo maybe a year and a half ago before Spanibus. Maybe it was two Spanibuses ago. And he was, I believe, from Amsterdam, and he kind of made what I, most of the water hash I saw that he made looked kind of like a low quality, you know, honestly it looked like my rosin chips, the stuff that I pressed out here.

2:43:20BubblemanIt looked like this all the time. Now I don't deny that it was probably strong and whatnot, it just wasn't what we were used to as seeing like, you know, something along this lines here. And he had sent me a picture, and I wish I had it just to pull it up right now, and it literally looked like a piece of I can't even hard to describe it like it was opaque you couldn't really see through it and it was crystalline almost it was like he said he played around with the pH of the water and he was able to crystallize the final product the bubble hash so he was going to show us Tony and I were actually both supposed to meet up with him and we were filming for a documentary that year and we got real busy and never ended up meeting up with him so we never really learned about it but I Other than that, I have very little experience with it.

2:44:08BubblemanI understand the science to a degree of using salt and altering the pH. Can I go? Here's the thing, I don't see it standing out as producing a much higher quality because Quality isn't the issue that we're dealing with. All we're dealing with is extracting resin heads to a 99.9% degree ratio. That's what water extraction is really all about. You're not, you know, sure you're unveiling the quality the further you decontaminate, but in truth, the water and the ice are really doing the majority of that for you.

2:44:50BubblemanThey're getting you a 99% head ratio. I don't understand how salt will Increase that.

2:44:59SpeakerOkay, so here's right here. Can I go for a sec? Okay, go ahead, Todd. I'm sorry. Let me know when you're ready for chemistry. Well, then you can explain it because you want to know something? One of my friends, his name's Vernon Hart. He makes some of the best hash I've ever seen in the world, both water hash and otherwise, and gas. And he had a brain tumor.

2:45:22SpeakerAnd his mother caused him to go get one of those Kagan machines that makes high pH water, which he now has in his kitchen and he uses religiously. And he used to produce, when he made water hash, some of the best nuanced differences. Like when a lot of guys, even me, would make water hash, It would, you would almost have a fingerprint to someone that made it.

2:45:46SpeakerBut when someone that was really good was making it, he was just capturing the strain. It was as if he, the hash maker, didn't exist and he captured the cannabis really well and all the hash looked super different and everything was amazing. And I was out with him looking at his pictures one day and I saw him and he let me, told me I could talk about this, but he was filling his machine with high pH water.

2:46:09SpeakerAnd I had been doing research on high pH water because, and here, I'm going to drop this link into our chat right here. And what I'd like to show is this, because I'm going to just point my thing at my video camera for a minute, because what I want to show you guys is what I showed Kenny. And from what I understand, science doesn't know what this is.

2:46:30SpeakerBut what you're going to see is this is normal oil and water just got mixed in, and you see how it separates. So this is our resin and cold water. This is actually high pH water. You see this? The pH meter is at 11.5 or 11.79. This was smart water, which is probably about 6. He's going to take this high pH water now, and he's going to drop it into... Let me see.

2:46:58SpeakerHe's going to pick it up now and drop it into the oil. Watch what happens, because this is really remarkable to me, because... Do you see how it emulsified and how the cup is now white comparatively? So now high pH water, this one, would actually emulsify the resin heads like a real strong solvent would comparatively to the regular neutral pH water that we see separating in our pot of pasta or...

2:47:28SpeakerThank you for watching.

2:47:40SpeakerI'd like to answer this, Mark, because as a grower, I've grown up very much with a close relation to pH because every medium I've grown in has required that I conform to a different pH in my feeding regimen. Hydroponics or soil or clay, I've had to adjust. My trip on this was, this was my first experience with playing with high pH water, and I started thinking, what is the importance on us humans with our pH, and why is that never a concern?

2:48:11SpeakerBecause we're pouring acidic soda. I would never pour a Coca-Cola, for instance, on one of my pot plants and expect a very good result, if you will. But people do it to their bodies, and the pot plant only has to live 8 weeks, 12 weeks, half a year. You know, people got to live decades and decades and decades. Where is pH in this? And my next question is, what the hell is happening in the water?

2:48:37SpeakerAnd if we pH up our water when we are making our water hash like Vernon's been doing, are we in fact blowing all these little molecules apart and then letting them recoagulate, if you will, on the other side of the screen? What's happening chemically there? All right. Wow. Time for me to speak. How about it? All right, here we go. Are we ready? Everyone got their notepads out?

2:49:06SpeakerLet me take a drink. Okay, so a lot of things going on here. I love the discussion. This is great. First of all, adding any kind of salt or solute to a solvent changes the The properties of that solvent and can do so. Can I add something then? I'm going to add this then, Mark, because he's doing it. These machines are using electrolysis and like the life ionizers require no chemicals.

2:49:34SpeakerSo you're able to achieve an acidic or an alkaline state without any chemical alterization. But the water does not maintain its high or low pH. It'll go back to neutral after a period of hours. And now I bring this up because

2:49:51SpeakerAs we are all on this, we don't want salt and we don't want additives and we don't want, you know, basically potassium salts are what we use to get rid of bugs. It's like soft soap minus the skin conditioners. So we don't want to add additives in and what kind of dawned on me is there are hotels in Santa Monica using acidic water. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:50:36SpeakerAnd now for us, in the gardening world, I believe that this can get rid of pesticides, sulfur sprays, and a whole host of different things that we use. Because, for instance, when we get mold mark, we use potassium bicarbonate, which then raises the pH of the water so when we spray it on the plant, the tissue layer of the plant has an inhabitable pH level for the mold.

2:51:02SpeakerSo my thought is, is if I can now dial in Now, if I have 9.5 pH on my water machine and then spray my plants, am I not doing the same thing minus the potassium bicarbonate? Now, if you read about acidic water on insect populations, it's bad, but if I'm an indoor grower, I don't like insects. Now, that would be kind of useful, and at certain stages of the plant, I could use not chemically altered but acidic water through a trolysis to actually combat The bugs and the other pests I have.

2:51:36SpeakerIf I'm correct and if pH is really the reason we are adding chemicals in our grow mediums to achieve these feats of either bug killing or mold and insect abatement.

2:51:50SpeakerOkay. All right. So let's start where I was, which is that when you take water and when you add anything to it, It changes the properties. And when I say the properties, it changes just about everything from the surface tension, from the density of the water. So salt water has a different density than fresh water. When you start putting in organics, like when you're making water hash and you're exposing Pretty hydrophobic molecules to the water.

2:52:27SpeakerIt changes the water. And certainly the molecules, the water-soluble terpenes that started this thread, what we were talking about was the difference on whether or not that's going to really make a big impact in terms of looking at, say, a solventless process like rosin, which Again, like you said, Todd, doesn't have a medium like a solvent to basically lose the terpenes out. So just to sort of finish up, the salting out effect is that when you dissolve salt into water, what it does is it has a tendency of pushing organics out of the water.

2:53:05SpeakerAnd so if you're doing a liquid-liquid extraction, especially with trace quantities of organics, what they find is that when you saturate that solution with salt, So you would imagine that, again, if there were water-soluble terpenes that were being lost in the hash process, in the water hash process, the two knobs you could turn is the temperature, right? You want to make it as cold as you possibly can because, again, by decreasing the temperature, the temperature has a direct impact on the solubility, even of the low-soluble terps.

2:53:42SpeakerBut the other thing you can do is, again, change the ionic strength of the solvent by adding salt. And so I think it was a good question to ask. I think everything you went on to discuss after that, there's a whole lot. I had an analytical... Adding salt does not change the pH, correct? It just changes the volume of the water. Adding salt can't change the pH.

2:54:06SpeakerIt depends on what the salt is. Now, when we say salt, most people think sodium chloride, but when a chemist thinks salt, we can think of Any thing on the left-hand side of the periodic table married with anything on the right-hand side, so potassium fluoride, calcium fluoride, those are all salts. But just for the sake of the conversation, it wouldn't be the salt, per se, that changed the pH.

2:54:28SpeakerIt would be whatever the salt was attached to? Dr. Yeah. When the salt dissolves, it depends on the nature of the components of the salt. You talked about sodium bicarbonate before. That's a weak base, not like sodium hydroxide, which is a really strong base. Now, sodium hydroxide, when you dissolve it in water, will take that water way up to pH 14 or 15. It goes right to the top of the pH scale.

2:54:54SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:55:16SpeakerThank you for joining us today.

2:55:42SpeakerThank you for watching.

2:56:04SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

2:56:34SpeakerSalt is I think it'll definitely have an impact especially in flavor because some of the most flavorful terpenes are water soluble and so some of those terpenes again can be salted out. I don't know what the right level of salt is. But maybe some of the people on this… Can I say it like this, though? Don't you think that just adding salt would do the same effect that has an alcohol in a bong?

2:56:56SpeakerBecause when you put alcohol in your bong to clean it, it doesn't work as good as if you throw some salt in there with the alcohol, and the salt is the agitator. And if you pour salt in with your water hash, what you're going to see is actually more agitation, because it won't just be… I would say start the water hash with a salt solution, so you're not adding solid sodium fluoride.

2:57:17SpeakerYou already start with a solution of sodium chloride. I wouldn't put salt in my water hash.

2:57:25TonyMark, would you put salt in your water hash? I can answer this. You guys are so technical. This is really simple. I can answer it because I'm friends with the Parmesan guy. Thanks for watching.

2:57:53TonyThank you so much for joining us.

2:58:17TonyAnd it's not freezing cold. Some people live in Spain. Some people live in California. And what the idea is when they're making their bubble hash, they're taking, and I'm not going to give everything away because salt size, salt type has things to do with it. And the salt quantity in the original wash has a lot to do with it. But they're adding dry ice to their water and salt.

2:58:41TonySo that way they can maintain a colder temperature and break the trichome heads off. And so you start with a 220 bag that you're putting your product in, you put it in your bubble machine, and you add dry ice and you add salt to that water only. And then when you go and you drain everything off and you run through your bags, the salt heads are getting washed away gently through those screens because they're not able to trap because they're much smaller.

2:59:07TonyThank you for watching.

2:59:25TonySo at 1,400 degrees, that's when you're actually breaking down the salt, if you wanted to think about it in the dabbing rule. But when you're gently washing the, you're emptying the, It will react, Tony.

2:59:36SpeakerIt'll react before that. It won't, it'll react. So the chloride is a reactive, functional group, and it'll add to terpenes. It'll add to the cannabinoids. You're basically going to start making chlorinated terpenes.

2:59:54SpeakerIt's interesting. Does the test on saltwater hash come back for containing any chloride at all?

3:00:03TonyNo. It's used in the first process to keep it colder. It's chunks of ice Thank you for watching.

3:00:31TonyBut what does happen is there seems to be a unique terpene profile, and it's a lot oilier, and they're also using like a negative 80 state to dry the hash out in a vacuum state, which is very interesting, and then pressing that out through filtration. So it's really for like when you're in a hotter climate, and you're trying to get your heads to cure out and get really hard and break off in that process faster.

3:01:00SpeakerYeah, I mean, it all makes sense. And just going back to Todd's little demo there where he showed the addition of a high pH thing forming an emulsion, I mean, that's very, very typical, especially with plant-derived oils because a lot of these have groups that, again, at high pH essentially create an emulsified, yeah, fat. I mean, this is essentially what milk is. Which is milk has got a lot of fat in it, but there's again glycoproteins in there and other things that act as essentially emulsifying agents so you could infinitely dilute a glass of milk and never have it oil out.

3:01:45TonySo, back to Todd's experiment, though. I like that topic, and there's a lot of THC and water, or CBD and THC soluble products that are coming out to the market, like water soluble THC, water soluble CBD, and I was laughing when I first heard this, because I'm like, yeah, you just changed the pH electronically, like what Todd was doing to absorb. Now, What's your thoughts on that aspect?

3:02:15TonyBecause I find putting it into sustainable plant fats that actually have C10s, 8s, 11s, and things that your body absorbs at a higher rate than water would be kind of the point. But what's the point of putting it in water? Just in your thoughts.

3:02:33SpeakerDid I ever tell you this story about how when I walked up to the booth I was at one of those cannabis expo conferences and one of these companies had one of those jugs of juice. It was basically a red jug of Kool-Aid. He was talking to a group of people there at the booth. This is actually a really funny story. He didn't know who I was.

3:02:58SpeakerI just kind of walked up and I started talking to him. I asked, I said, well, what's in the jug of red Kool-Aid? And he said, well, it's just CBD and water. We have a proprietary way of processing it, and it's just nothing but CBD and water, and there's no other. I said, well, what's making it red? I said, CBD shouldn't be red. CBD should be colorless.

3:03:22SpeakerThere should be no red. I mean, red is a glass of Kool-Aid, right? And he said, well, you know, I think it might just be colored for demonstration purposes. I said, well, CBD has no solubility in water, very little solubility in water, and without making a salt or having a surfactant present that can emulsify this water-insoluble compound, you can't put it and have a clear solution that looks like a jug of Kool-Aid.

3:03:53SpeakerAnd he said, well, I don't know what you're talking about, surfactant. There's no surfactant here. And I started explaining what a surfactant is. You know, a surfactant is basically a soap-like molecule. It's usually a very long molecule that has a very nonpolar tail but a very polar head. And these create micelles, which are like the little bubbles, you know, like when we wash our hands and you see the bubbles.

3:04:15SpeakerAnd the reason why soap works, because it emulsifies the oils and the dirt on our skin and washes it away, right? Well, again, I started explaining, and as I was explaining, it was funny, a little crowd started growing around the booth, because I think people started getting in tune with, hey, I think this guy might know what he's talking about. And I said, no, I convinced everyone that there had to be a soap molecule, and they're a surfactant-like soap molecule.

3:04:44SpeakerAnd he said, no, no, no, there isn't at all. And just then, He put the bottle down on the table, and I picked up the bottle, and I shook it like a milkshake, and it foamed up like a Coke. And I left it down on the table, and I walked away. He was like, oh, who are you, blah, blah, blah, and all this other crap. That was pretty funny.

3:05:03SpeakerThat was like Canna Vest or one of those Canna companies.

3:05:06TonyWell, yeah, and then talk about what's the absorption rate of water if you even get it into water.

3:05:15SpeakerI mean, it would be like, Tony, this would be like drinking a bottle of soap, okay? Yeah. I mean, unless it's, now, there are vegetable-based surfactants that actually can be edible. Carrageenan is one that comes from seaweed. It's used in ice cream and all kinds of food manufacture. There are actually synthetic dispersants that are food-grade and can be used in foods. But I mean, to say that this is a bottle of CBD water, it was just absolutely ridiculous.

3:05:46SpeakerAnd the funny thing is that two of the guys who were around the booth there kind of followed me away and talked to me a little bit more about it. It was kind of a funny interaction.

3:05:54TonyWell, man, you know, I tell, you know, when you're taking large volumes of aged, dead CBD from hemp, it's like somebody was like, oh yeah, I bought all this hemp online. I'm like, well, just go to Whole Foods and Start eating hemp protein. I mean, like, what is the difference between that? And then at the end of the day when you're just taking like 400 or 1,000 milligrams of hemp CBD, you're just drying out your body.

3:06:19TonySo it's like an oxymoron product. It's like here's a bunch of water, but then here's a whole bunch of CBD to dry you out. So you have to keep drinking the water, and you're getting dried out, but keep drinking the water. It's like, I'm selling you six hot dogs and eight buns. Just give me six hot dogs and six fucking buns. I want the same. You know?

3:06:44Etienne FontanTime for dabs.

3:06:47Etienne FontanGreat logic there, Tony.

3:06:50HoratioWell, it just seems like a product to play into another industry where... People want to get away from the image of cannabis. Well, can I drink it? Could I bypass society by carrying it in a vitamin water? And there seems to be gimmicks everywhere pounding us hard and just looking for someone to take the bait. Can I touch the funny? Go for it.

3:07:15SpeakerSo, since, like, in the 90s, I got busted down in LA, and I was fortunate enough to meet Hugh Hefner, and then he invited me and Keith Strope, the founder of Normal Over for dinner, which was pretty, pretty, pretty dope, right? So we got to have dinner with Hefner and go and get high before I went to prison. And, uh, His thing was cookies. He didn't really ever smoke because he couldn't really, he said, smoke around all these executives and people he didn't really know and he didn't trust them, but But he had cookies.

3:07:48SpeakerSo he has these HMH-only cookies that were in the kitchen, not because he was a jerk and he wouldn't share, but because they all had weed in them. Because he said he could sit there eating his cookie in front of a whole board full of meeting, and nobody knew he was sitting there getting high the whole damn time. And I think it's funny how stealth it can be.

3:08:11SpeakerSo, you know, I'm sure that's... Lester! You did it! Well, I just got back. I tried you before.

3:08:22Etienne FontanLester, welcome.

3:08:23SpeakerHi, Jim. How are you?

3:08:27Etienne FontanIt's a blessing to see you, sir.

3:08:29SpeakerWell, it makes me so good to go to church every Sunday, you know.

3:08:36BubblemanWell, it's nice to have you here, Lester. I'm Mark Bubbleman. I guess church is a little thing that I started.

3:08:45SpeakerWell, good for you, Bobby, man. It's a nice idea. You know, Lester, I met Mark over 20 years ago in Amsterdam, and he went on to create some of the technology that brought water hash to the masses by simplifying the bag system and selling them and really gave us all a huge gift. And Mark has been the one that orchestrated this. We used to sit and talk.

3:09:08SpeakerA long time ago, get high in video chat, and he turned it into this wonderful platform. I was talking about earlier your contribution in my next book, Caneopathic Medicine, and how you feel that this is a responsible space. Please tell us a little about what it is. I'm telling people I feel you're 40 years ahead of us. You know, it seemed to me that as cannabis as a medicine developed, that just to call it medical marijuana doesn't make sense because it's a whole New philosophy and new science is coming out of this from the endocannabinoid system, not to speak of all the things that you guys have been involved in, inventing new ways of taking it.

3:10:06SpeakerSo other systems of health systems are called, always ending in, for example, allopathy, This is modern Western medicine. It's the kind of medicine I learned to do at medical school, and I did all during the years that I practiced. But there's also osteopathy, homeopathy, naturopathy, and so forth. In fact, it's interesting that osteopathy is now being absorbed into medicine, into allopathy, or you might say the other way around.

3:10:49SpeakerBecause there is a school of osteopathy which now awards degrees, a D.O. instead of an M.D., a doctor of osteopathy. But, for example, in the state of Massachusetts, if you see somebody with a D.O. after his name rather than an M.D., It's a perfectly, he's a well-trained physician. He knows as much as the average person who gets out of the medical school. So it seemed to me it would, we're moving in the direction of it's being a specialized form of medicine, then let's call it that.

3:11:31SpeakerAnd it seemed to me that cannabinopathy or cannabinopathic medicine, just like we say allopathy or allopathic medicine, is an appropriate term instead of just medical marijuana. So that's why I thought it, you know, in a certain sense, You know, not for anybody in church today does it have a negative connotation, the word marijuana. But the fact is we're early in the acculturation of marijuana, and for lots of people, so it separates, you know, people urge me to always use the word cannabis.

3:12:18SpeakerBut I don't. I use marijuana and cannabis interchangeably. I use them both. Because marijuana has a tradition now in Spanish-speaking countries and in this country. And there's no use pretending it's something different. So, I'm perfectly comfortable with that, writing about marijuana, about cannabis, but I think we ought to, where it comes to the medicine, we ought to have a more, you know, Linnaean kind of name. Okay, honey, I'll see you in a bit.

3:13:03SpeakerSo, that's why I introduced that term. I thought it would be more appropriate. ATN, I wanted to take up something with you. Was it you who said you had a talk with Raphael Muthulam about, well, does anybody have any questions about, the only question Todd has ever asked me is how do you pronounce it? Now Todd, I want you to say it, cannabinopathy, or cannabinopathy, any way you want to do it, but it's going to have all those syllables in it.

3:13:43SpeakerOkay. Doc, yes. I had my mic muted while you were speaking. I didn't want to interrupt you. Caniopathy? No. No. It's not caniopathy. It's cannabinopathy. Or cannabinopathy if you want to do it. You can have all the syllables in there. You're throwing me curveballs, Lester. Okay. And you throw me so many delightful things, don't you? You know, I think we all appreciate where you're coming from, though.

3:14:20SpeakerThe sentiment is that it fully makes sense. And I was saying that your first book, Marijuana Reconsidered, came out in the late 60s, early 70s, and you were 40 years ahead of where we are now back then in your findings and conclusions. And I think paying attention to where you see it going now for us is incredible. You're a good indicator of what we should be looking at.

3:14:43SpeakerI know I thank you for all the years of inspiration, Lester, really. I thank you for how you guys are doing. You guys are the heart and center of it all. Let me say one other thing about cannabinopathic medicine, and that is we can't expect too much from it because it's never going to be much more than a palliative medicine. Now, you know, some things will be cured.

3:15:10SpeakerThere's no question. But primarily, it's a palliative. And you know, for example, in allopathic medicine, we not only have palliative treatments, but Cures as well, or at least things that can hold back diseases when it comes to cancer and so forth. But we have diagnostics, and look at all the diagnostic tools we have. You know, x-rays, laboratories and so forth. We have surgery. We have all these other aspects.

3:15:45SpeakerBut nevertheless, my own sense of cannabis is that it's going to be a very important medicine of the future. Because it will be, for one thing, a medicine which people can afford to have. If they don't want to pay the prices that are sold in the dispensaries or in the shops once it's legalized or on the black market, they can always go to their own closet and raise a couple of plants.

3:16:21SpeakerSo it will be a very much used medicine, and of course, you know, when I wrote the book in 93, Marijuana Fluid Medicine, I put maybe a couple of dozen things in there. And that was about the understanding. But look, if you look at what's been reported, you know, most of it's anecdotal.

3:16:47SpeakerYou know, I broke the rules in medicine. I wrote a book based on anecdotal medicine. But it seemed to me that the anecdotes here were just too many and too compelling to ignore. And it's one thing if you're talking anecdotally about a medicine that has a very... We have a low therapeutic ratio. That is, it's quite toxic. For example, some of the chemotherapeutics have a therapeutic ratio of maybe 1.2, whereas something like alcohol has a therapeutic ratio of 4 to 10.

3:17:31SpeakerThat is to say, the amount of the drug you You would need for 50% of the people who take that amount to be killed. And aspirin has a much higher therapeutic ratio. But none of them comes close. The therapeutic ratio for cannabis can't be measured because you can't find the denominator. How many people have died from it? Well, nobody has died from an overdose. There may be people who have used it and foolishly done things while they were smoking, but that's indirect.

3:18:14SpeakerThat's really, they died of bad judgment. We understand that when we say this is a new medical system, that it's a limited medical system. Now that doesn't mean, you know, there are people who still believe that it cures cancer. Maybe that's something I don't want to take up all the time, but that's something we can talk about. I have a lot of problems with that assurance that people are given that it will cure cancer.

3:18:45SpeakerI know of lives that have been lost trying to prove that it does cure cancer. And I don't mean that it won't be. There are certainly some cancers that probably can be cured about it, but you can't make that statement responsibly. It cures cancer. I think I got off. Hello. Okay. Can Horatio ask you a question, Lester? Would you mind? Absolutely. Hi, Lester. Hi.

3:19:29HoratioI follow orthomolecular medicine. When you brought up cannabinopathic medicine, I was like, well, every time I try to show my wife the relationship to homeopathy, she gets furious that it's not bad, and you're talking about high doses, and she gets defensive. I look back at how...

3:19:52HoratioOrthomolecular medicine was used to cross over into orthomolecular psychiatry and how they started using things like LSD and mescaline to help treat people with like alcoholism and I'm seeing so much progress with getting people off of Painkiller addictions and that heavy need for sedation that some souls require, it seems to be that style of addressing it. So with your cannabinopathic medicine, are you familiar with Linus Pauling and that old school work?

3:20:26HoratioI mean, it's been a long time, but it seems like the same strain, just cannabis driven versus what they were doing with vitamins, amino acids, and regulating the body back to a state of natural health.

3:20:40SpeakerAnd so did the people who believed in Harry Hoxie and so forth and so on. But these things didn't turn out to be useful. Now, cannabis is definitely medicinally useful. Now, it doesn't mean to say it's going to be useful to everybody, let's say, in the treatment of nausea. And a paper was published and it said something like, oh, I couldn't believe it. It said 23% of the subjects had nausea or relief.

3:21:16SpeakerI mean, I've never met anybody with nausea who couldn't get relief from cannabis. And so it was hard for me to know what these people were talking about. But let's accept that there are people who can't get relief. And also, you know, somebody I tried to help here who's a We've got a problem with appetite here. And it didn't work. But the reason it didn't work, he's so afraid of it.

3:21:45SpeakerHe's a man of 90 years old. He has good reasons to be a little timid about it. But he wasn't getting any into his lungs. He was just getting into what's called the dead space. That is, if you get enough in to go down the bronchi and into the bronchioles, That's not going to do it. You've got to get it beyond that into the alveoli. And he would just go, and I couldn't persuade him to really take it into his lungs.

3:22:16SpeakerSo, you know, he, I'm sure, believes that it won't help his appetite because he's tried it in Dr. Grinspoon's apartment and it doesn't work. But I didn't want to push him too much because he clearly had a lot of anxiety about it. So, you know, we're still working, as far as I'm concerned, with a lot of uncertainty here, but there's no question in my mind that it is very useful, particularly as a palliative medicine, in a number of things.

3:22:54SpeakerYou know, even these little children who, you know, they demand a high CBD, OTHC, but certainly the other part of the... The ensemble of the terpenoids. And they're almost cured. I mean, they can go from someone like Charlotte Seedy, who went from something like 300 seizures

3:23:24SpeakerOver a period of something like a month down to about three. Well, you know, that's almost virtually a cure. It isn't because she would continue to seize if she didn't get that. Now, you know, the phone rang, and I think I missed part of your question. Did I get to the gist of what you were talking about?

3:23:45HoratioWell, I was looking more on the human psychology end of it versus the physical side. I'm getting a lot of feedback in the last week when it comes to people's stories with painkillers. And their long dramatic history with painkillers. I'm on Oxycontin for this and then I kept going back to my doctor and the dose went up. How it somehow all leads them to hopelessness and then they latch on to cannabis as their last hope before considering life.

3:24:21HoratioA punishment rather than a possibility. So I saw in that orthomolecular medicine in the 70s when they were trying things like LSD and medicine and mesculine combinations and guiding patients through trips, like these are psychologists and psychiatrists that were really gifted people. They were having a 50% cure rate with alcoholism where that doesn't exist in society still. So with this new Cannabis-based version of that, is there a parry?

3:24:53HoratioDo you see as much help in the psychological realm?

3:24:58SpeakerLet me address that. Thank you. Cannabis is a wonderful analgesic. When it was used between 1850 and the turn of the century, in 1900,

3:25:13SpeakerIt was used, the two things it was used most for at that time, and you have to remember, that was an alcoholic solution of cannabis, it was called cannabis indica, and the doctor would say, take three minims of this or that, and they prescribed it for, and they were delighted to have it introduced by O'Shaughnessy in 1849, because there were very few drugs on the pharmacist's shelves that did much of anything, so when they were delighted to have it, But one of the major things they used it for was as an analgesic.

3:25:50SpeakerNow, it isn't a perfect analgesic because it won't stop all sorts of pains. It will diminish most pains. But to completely stop it, that doesn't often happen. The most common pain Pain for which it is really good and can stop it completely is neuropathic pain. In other words, if you've got a disorder like if you have diabetes and the nerves are attacked, neuropathic means it's in those neurons, the effect is, and that is a very effective, that's when it's most effective as an analgesic.

3:26:38SpeakerNow, you mentioned, somebody did addiction, because when you have really severe pain, you know, if you have surgery, if you have an appendix out, or you have to have part of your colon removed, I mean, really deep surgery, cannabis alone isn't going to do it. You've got to have an opiate.

3:27:08SpeakerWhat I wish we could teach physicians is that if they provided cannabis along with the oxy-COVID, for example, which is the stuff that most people get hooked on, we're having a real epidemic of addiction, of opiate addiction in this country. What happens to these people? They get started on it by a doctor. But the OxyContin bills cost about $9 to $10 a piece. And even if they can go on getting prescriptions somehow, and they do when they get stuck on it, they find that, oh, boy, I'm taking 10 of these a day.

3:27:51SpeakerThat's $100 a day. Whereas they can go out in the street and buy heroin for much, much less than the OxyContin. Nowadays, it used to be much more expensive. But now the prices come down.

3:28:06SpeakerIf physicians really understood that if you have to give an opiate, whichever synthetic one it is, whether it's morphine or Percocet, if you give an opiate for severe pain, you also, we live in a future world, prescribe cannabis. And you teach the patient or have them go to somebody who can teach them how to use it. And if you do that, The amount of OxyContin that you need, you still need it, but it falls dramatically.

3:28:42SpeakerFurthermore, you get to the point where you can continue with the cannabis, but you can do without the OxyContin much sooner than if you just use OxyContin alone. So I think that will be a very important contribution.

3:29:05SpeakerThe cannabinopathic medicine will make allopathic medicine because we're getting worried about the degree to which people are being, that we physicians are, you know, when I have had surgery and I had to take, excuse me, an opiate, I would be very careful, I'd If he said take it four times a day, I'd try to get it down to three because I'm very conscious of what an opium addiction is about.

3:29:42SpeakerOne of my sons became addicted to opium. He's a physician. Twelve percent of physicians get addicted to opium because they can just reach in the cabinet there and get those pills. In fact, you should know he's coming out with a book called Free refills. It's being published by Hachette in February. And it's the story of his addiction and how he overcame it. So there, I'm putting in a little puff piece here for my son.

3:30:17SpeakerIn fact, I have two sons who are coming out with books this year. Well, I don't know if I answered your question, but anyway.

3:30:28BubblemanI like that question.

3:30:32SpeakerI didn't hear that.

3:30:33BubblemanOh, I just... I like the title of the book.

3:30:43Etienne FontanSorry, Lester. It's ATN. I mute you because there's a feedback that happens from your mic, so we're just trying to keep the conversation going. Mark Scaldone here would like to ask you a question.

3:30:53SpeakerAsk a question. Hi, Dr. Grinspoon. Nice to meet you. I just want to expand on... I think is a very fantastic discovery that was reported this week around bone healing and that CBD stimulates lysine hydroxylation, which is part of the nature of the collagen that supports osteoblast growth. And for bone healing, this is just amazing. I wonder if this can actually be, again, used in different wound healing applications.

3:31:31SpeakerAnd whether or not, again, the stimulation of the lysine hydroxylation that this group found for osteoblasts can have more widespread applications than just in bone. And I'm thinking, again, particularly about wound healing applications.

3:31:52BubblemanI've got to unmute in one sec. I'll do that. I can unmute you. Boom, there you go.

3:32:02SpeakerDo you hear me now? I'm glad you brought that up because that's a very interesting development. It also emphasizes that we shouldn't think of it as just a palliative. It's primarily a palliative, but there's a long ways to go in cannabinopathic medicine. There are going to be many things discovered about it. It's the reason I believe it will someday be seen as a wonder drug. Because, you know, penicillin was discovered in 1928 and was put on the shelf, and then with the beginning of World War II in 1941, two other British investigators, knowing that the only

3:32:54SpeakerAnd the only antibiotic we had at that time was something you've never heard of called sulfonamide. And it wasn't very good at all. And as you also know, on battlefields, most of the deaths are not directly traumatic. They're indirectly. They die because of infections. And that's why, for example, the Civil War casualties were so high. If a person got a serious wound, he was really at risk of dying, which is not true now.

3:33:31SpeakerBut at any rate, these are the kinds of things which I think are going to come along, and we should... You know, we should have a name to this field because it requires one. It's a whole different set of thinking about how to use this medicine. It gets complicated in people's mind because there are three different uses of the medicine. It's the best recreational drug around. And I don't have to tell you guys why that's true.

3:34:13SpeakerSecondly, it's a medicine, and that can only grow. And thirdly, it's what I call, it has the effect of enhancement. Enhancement, I call it enhancement of human potential. Now some of you may have seen, I know I sent it to Todd on my Facebook, this German author, By the name, he goes by Sebastian Shulson, but I think he calls himself Sebastian, I forget something, Kolo. But at any rate, he talked about Carl Sagan's use of it as an enhancer.

3:35:00SpeakerSo, you know, that's again quite different from any other medicine. I mean, when The usual medicines in allopathic that are used as recreational are the opioids, and that can lead to addiction. We don't have much experience with a medicine which is also used by people who are partying and people who are like Carl Sagan himself. I mean, he used it when he wrote. He felt it was very important.

3:35:42SpeakerI may have told you about one night when somebody in California sent me, this was years ago, I mean he died in 1996 and this was before that, someone sent me about six joints. We were very paranoid about it.

3:36:27SpeakerWe had all these bottles afterwards before room service came up. The whole suite had to be sprayed with that stuff so nobody would smell it. But at any rate, we tried this, and it was very good stuff. And as I left the suite that night, he said to me, Lester, I saw in your little home over there that you had one more of those joints. He said, could I...

3:36:54SpeakerCould I have that? I have to finish the last chapter to whatever the hell the book was at that time. And it would be so helpful to me tomorrow to try and get that done. And of course I gave it to him. But, you know, so here again we're talking about a medicine which has some funny uses as far as other people. So, another reason I think cannabinopathic is useful because it, you know, helps people to see this is a legitimate, this is a legitimate medicine.

3:37:26SpeakerLook, it even has a Linnaean derived name, so. Dr. Well, can I ask a question? Dr. Yeah. What do you say to cannabis as a performance-enhancing drug in the sense that bodybuilders use it to rest, to increase their appetites, to aid in pain abatement from over-exercising? I think cannabis has been a secret medicine and tool or weapon in the gym for decades, and now you're talking about an author using a good joint to help finish a chapter in probably a scientific book.

3:38:03SpeakerWhat have you. He was working on them. What do you think of cannabis as a performance enhancing drug? You know, I remember I used to play a lot of tennis. I was never very good at it, but I loved it even with my less than quality game. And I remember I said, you know, and I had my own tennis court, so. People would come over, and I, just before they came over, I smoked a joint to try it.

3:38:35SpeakerAnd the first time, I thought my game was elevated. And so did they. I didn't tell them that I had smoked. They weren't the kind of people who would have any sympathy with that at all. So I tried it again. I'm going to look. Just bear with me. I tried it again. And the second time, I played some of the worst tennis I've ever played. So that was the end of it.

3:39:09SpeakerSome things, it does help. I mean, performance, if you're doing something which is, in my opinion, for cognitive performance, I think it's very helpful. You know, for example, I remember one night when I...

3:39:27SpeakerI had invented a book for the American Psychiatric Association. It's called The Annual Review of Psychiatry. And Todd knows about it. I think I sent you that book. Harvard, Marijuana and Meat. And I talked about it in that paper. And it was a huge success. And I edited the book. It made a fortune for the American Psychiatric Association. I, because I was doing it on my Harvard time, I felt I shouldn't take the 10% royalty, and so I donated, I turned it directly at Harvard.

3:40:03SpeakerBut then, on the basis of that, my chief asked me one day, Lester, how about you did that for the APA? How about you invent something that our department can make money on? And so I went home and I purposely got stoned that night. And I just thought about What could the Department of Psychiatry do that might make some extra money? And I came up with the idea of the Harvard Mental Health Letter.

3:40:33SpeakerWell, something you guys aren't aware of, but it was an eight-page letter, like the other health letters that are around there, a dime a dozen now, but it made a small fortune for Harvard. And that was a purposeful attempt To think of something that would be responsive to his request. Now, you can say, well, I probably would have thought of it anyways. That may be true. On the other hand, it's also possible that my being stoned helped me because it is something that lots of people who do more creative things than I do use it specifically for, to get ideas.

3:41:24SpeakerSo, you know, if that's the kind of performance, yeah, I think it does enhance it, but I wouldn't recommend it for tennis on the basis of very little experience. You know, I've recommended it to people in the NFL with a high CBB because I think it's neuroprotective aspect might help those guys from getting a very impossible syndrome from all the concussions. But that's another story. Did I answer your question?

3:41:57SpeakerYes, actually, yes. So for when you need inspiration to create the American Psychiatric Review, you'd say smoke a joint, but playing tennis against your friend might not be conclusive. That'll really help you out. The American Psychiatric Review is still in press, is it not? Yes, I think they've changed the title from the annual review or something else, but it's still in the press every year. See, it came out of, I was chairperson of the scientific program committee of the American Psychiatric Association, and it really came out of that because I had to put together the scientific program for 12,000 psychiatrists that got together once a year.

3:42:41SpeakerAnd as a consequence, you know, I knew all the The top people in schizophrenia, all the top people in character, whatever aspect of psychiatry, through my work as chairperson for four years, I was able to identify these people and ask them to write, it was divided into five sections. One would be of schizophrenia, another section of depression, and so forth and so on. And I would get the top five people in that area to give me chapters for that book.

3:43:23SpeakerAnd I edited it for those three years. Three or four years, I can't remember.

3:43:34HoratioTony, you had a question?

3:43:39TonyI did. First of all, Doctor, it's always a... It's always great to hear your comments on all of this. You've been an inspiration to everybody listening, watching, and part of the panel, so I just wanted to show my respect first and foremost. And you've been an inspiration on the products and program that I created, and I just wanted to know, and maybe you don't really know the program, but I wanted to know your thoughts on the use of micro-dosing and cannabinoid Stacking, as I'm calling it, or cannabinoid sequencing, is like I like to refer to it.

3:44:18TonyAnd what I mean by that is when you're able to utilize, let's use three different things here, a sublingual that would be CBD and CBN, activated and decarboxylated, if you were able to use two drops under the tongue of that, a capsule that is, say, 10 milligrams CBDA, high CBDA, low THCA, and then stacking another capsule that would be activated THC, and let's say this one's 20 milligrams.

3:44:56TonySo the combination of that, utilizing, say, a 20 milligram activated THC, a 10 milligram 3 to 1 CBDA to THCA, so that would be 7 milligrams of CBDA in this one, Three milligrams of THCA on top of 20 milligrams of THC with a sublingual that offers, say, four milligrams total cannabinoids, two being CBD and two being CBN. What your thoughts are when you're stacking them or sequencing them, utilizing CB2 and CB1 receptors.

3:45:37TonyWhat do you think of that concept or if it has significant value In delivery or targeting versus, say, one catch-all of a tincture that's just straight, you know, 10 THC strains in one, do you feel there's a significance at all in pulling those out and being able to sequence them together and utilizing them in combinations throughout the day or for different people, different reasons?

3:46:08TonyOf course.

3:46:11SpeakerI have zero clinical experience with that, so I can't say, but I would think that you're on the right track. That is one of the paths that cannabinopathic medicine is going to take. That is, what are the best combinations of these things in ratios, and what is the best way to take them? Now, you know, it's easy enough to say, oh, you know, you have a migraine headache, take cannabis.

3:46:48SpeakerBut maybe we can get much more specific about it. And if maybe 70% can get, I'm just guessing, okay, I have no idea, get relief from, if you just say cannabis, maybe close to 100% if we eventually learn what the kinds of things you are experimenting with comes up with the best treatment for that particular syndrome or symptom. And that's all part of the learning experience. You guys are developing all these things.

3:47:25SpeakerAnd the other side of the equation is that doctors are going to have to learn either to use them themselves, to be as acquainted with that, the pharmacopeia that comes out of cannabis as they are with the commercial. We're presently existing pharmacopoeia because it isn't going to be just a matter of take cannabis. Already we have an advantage because I don't know of another medicine where the patient learns to titrate the dose for himself.

3:48:09SpeakerWe have the opportunity to do this because you can find out Just what, and the number of puffs you take for this thing that will just cover your dose. Or, you know, just we titrate it for the high. You know, you don't want to go too far, but you certainly want to get there. That's what smoking, or taking it via the respiratory system, whether it's a vaporizer or a smoke, that's an advantage that we have in using this medicine.

3:48:46SpeakerI don't know if I answered your question, but I answered it as much as I can. I don't know the answer specifically, but I think that you're on a track that has to be pursued.

3:49:00TonyWell, that was a question in the background here that Horatio was talking about, transdermals, and everything seems that it's finding its place, you know, where When someone says, why would I use a transdermal versus taking a capsule or a sublingual or a topical like a salve or a bomb? And it's really about the delivery, effectiveness and the delivery. And sometimes a patient that has certain conditions, you want to bypass the liver.

3:49:31TonyAnd so it's, like you said, if you're absorbing cannabinoids, You're going to be completing that circuitry between the endocannabinoid system and the receptors that we know about and the ones that we're still learning about. And being able to give those options of delivery, I think, is key. And so if you can't take a capsule or you're trying to get, you know, as an example, I use capsules for autoimmune disorders or tumors or cancer or trying to saturate the body in that For those particular purposes, I use sublinguals for MS, pain-related epilepsy, seizures, and transdermals for delivering time-released all-in-one sequencing.

3:50:19TonySo if I took what I just took was, say, a one-to-one-to-one, I can deliver that same sequence in a transdermal, release that over time, and bypass the liver by putting it into blood. Now, what Horatio was talking about, for those that are listening, was utilizing topicals versus transdermals on eczema, open scars, or healing. I know a lot of you out there have used salves and balms, seeing CBGA, CBC, THCA, and the full plant profile in a salve, and how much that works, say, post-tattoo or a scar on your arm.

3:51:02TonyHoratio brought up some interesting things with transdermals and open scars or open wounds. And I just wanted to see what you kind of thought on delivery methods. And as we're learning and being able to get repression pushed to the side, as Todd said earlier, and we get into the agricultural world, Developing new things like salines that are used in hospitals when a patient's post-surgery or going into surgery and there's vitals and things that we can utilize with that.

3:51:34TonyThat's what I thought of when I saw you doing that 11, utilizing that 11.1 pH and absorbing things into water. It's what's that going to do when we start looking at it on a full level in the Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to talk a little bit about how we can start replacing synthetics and start replacing those particular methods and synergizing cannabinoids in there.

3:52:03TonyI agree with you when you said earlier the combination that I've seen the most of is when we take the best of what we have conventionally and we add cannabinoids into the process, what that does for post-chemo neuropathy, what that does during chemo. You know, I wouldn't advise anyone that's listening to think or subscribe that cannabis cures. It makes me, it makes my skin kind of crawl when somebody says, oh yeah, we're just, we're going to cure cannabis or cure cancer with cannabis.

3:52:34TonyAnd it's about preventative management, regenerative, and when it comes to cancer, it comes down to managing that and trying to keep it in a sustainable position so we can keep it in remission. But I don't like to tell people that it cures people. And we're so far away from that. That's 10, 20 years before we can make even a statement near that.

3:52:57SpeakerYeah, and you know, it's one thing if you tell somebody, you know, this may help the pain of your osteoarthritis. You know, if it doesn't work, he doesn't suffer. But you tell somebody with cancer, and that person is naive enough to believe that this alone is going to do it. And, you know, when you have a serious cancer, Time is of the essence because the quicker you get it, the more successful, that is, the quicker your oncologist gets that diagnosed, the quicker he can institute a therapeutic regime which may cure it altogether.

3:53:41SpeakerBut the more you delay, those odds go down very rapidly. Now, you know, you bring to mind Let me just tell you my view of medicine, of allopathic medicine in the future. Two things. You know, just as you go into the Peter Van Brigham Hospital, which I unfortunately go into too many times nowadays, you know, I'm sent to a specialist for this, a specialist for that. You know, a cardiologist has to see this.

3:54:20SpeakerThe person who's seeing me from a polyvascular rheumatica is an endocrinologist. All these different specialties. Okay, now I envision the day when one of those specialties is going to be the cannabinopathic doctor. The person in the hospital Who understands everything that you understand about it and much more. Everything that you, all the devices that you guys are inventing as well as putting out for trial. He's going to be an expert in this.

3:55:02SpeakerAnd let's say I'm an internist and I want to treat this problem, this person for that. But I'd like you to see the cannabinopathic doctor. Would you make an appointment with him? Because I believe there may be ways. He just has to know enough that cannabis can or may, for many people, enhance what he's done. But he doesn't know enough about ILO, whether he can for this particular disorder, like polymyalgia rheumatica, whether it's not a really good treatment, and if it does, what form for this patient, this age, to take, and how to teach him to do it.

3:55:53SpeakerSo we're going to have a specialist in there. Secondly, I believe that there will be lounges. You know, when San Francisco had the clubs, you know, where people could go and just sit around in couches and so forth and smoke and chat, I wrote a piece for Playboy, of all places, on how this is going to be... It's something of the future because we know two things.

3:56:32SpeakerThat when people can talk about their serious illnesses for reasons we do not understand, if you take a control group of anything, whether it be tuberculosis or cancer or what have you, and you have them You put them in a group where they get together and regularly talk about it, the outcomes are better. You know, not way better, but certainly better than the control group. Now, I foresee a time when there will be a lounge in a hospital, the cannabis lounge, where people who are mobile at this time in their rehabilitation After they've seen the cannabinopathic specialist, can go there and smoke or take one of the things you're talking about, in some way use cannabis, and have an opportunity to chat with other people while they're doing this.

3:57:43SpeakerI would bet, I won't be around, but I'll bet those two things are going to happen. And that's going to be one of the ways in which cannabinopathic medicine is going to be integrated with allopathic medicine. I won't take any bets now because I won't be able to pay off with that news. Well... Matt, can you hear me? I can hear you. Stop it, please. Can you hear me, Lester?

3:58:19SpeakerYeah. Yeah. I just want to thank you. You know, spending this time talking to you, it's a treasure every moment we get. And having you come on and, you know, I really... I get to benefit from your kindness and the way you teach me, the way we Skype all the time, and for Avion here, and to be able to share it with everybody, it's a real gift, and I just want to say thank you.

3:58:39SpeakerIt works both ways. I learned a lot right here in these few moments, so it's not a one-way street, and I appreciate your inviting me.

3:58:52BubblemanAbsolutely. Thank you so much for coming in, Lester. It is an absolute honor to have you in here, and whether you know it or not, it really gives this platform another sort of level of respect. Just by you coming and visiting and sharing your perspective with us, certain people that are trying to break into this dialogue with maybe their parents or maybe people at their work that aren't There's the two sides to the coin.

3:59:22BubblemanIt sometimes helps for certain people to see someone with a little bit more sort of

3:59:32BubblemanHow to put it, that what you have behind you is vast. You know, the fact that your history and your work at Harvard and all the incredible books and your history, we respect it a great deal and you are always welcome here on Hash Church, so thank you very much.

3:59:49SpeakerThank you very much. I just wanted to speak to ATN for a minute because I think we didn't, we got cut off last time or something. Now, you know, there's this question of It is the best way to describe the fact that, let's say, at least three, it may be more in the future, but THC, CBD, and the terpenoids are essential to a medical, whatever it is, the ratios may differ.

4:00:23SpeakerNow, I didn't have a chance to tell you, but I had... Rafael was in this country last summer and we had dinner together. And I brought this up that I thought the word that he uses for this, entourage, is not an accurate description and doesn't help people to understand. But I thought the word entourage That ensemble makes a lot more sense because people know it's a musical, whatever kind of ensemble, they know that the actors, the important ingredients have to act together to get the final product.

4:01:13SpeakerThe product is greater than the sum of its parts because of this. And as I understood it, you were saying that you talked to, you talked to him and he, Now, when I talked to him about this, he didn't say anything. He wouldn't commit himself enough. And I think it's important to get that word in there rather than on to rise. And it seems to me you were telling me about your experience with it, but we didn't finish.

4:01:49SpeakerCan you clue me in on that?

4:01:53Etienne FontanAbsolutely, Doctor. First off, I just want to, again, I want to thank you personally. I am, in case people don't know, I am PTSD in Dr. Lester Grinspoon's book, Marijuana, the Forbidden Medicine. So I want to thank you for that opportunity to help other people because I don't really realize how much that has helped others in Thank you for help clarifying how that has helped.

4:02:18SpeakerLet me just interrupt for a minute to say that you helped those other people because you were the person they could have. This apparently worked. So, I mean, that was the value of that book is what the patients said about their experience. So, I want you to go on, but I just want to say you own as much on that account as I am for sure. Can I add something to those listening?

4:02:46SpeakerBefore you say something, ATN, is the fact that Dr. Lester Grinspoon took those stories in anonymously and published those and did not actually, because it was so hard to come out for what we were talking about, when ATN first wrote that story, It did not contain his real name. Am I correct, ATN? And it wasn't until years later, almost 20, that ATN and Dr. Grinspoon were actually introduced formally to one another as they are now.

4:03:17SpeakerAnd it's pretty amazing for Lester, I think, that one of the stories in his book Kind of grew up to become the firm member he is in the cannabis community. It's great. It's great. But let me hear what he has to say now about his experience with Raphael.

4:03:35Etienne FontanAgain, humbled and honored. So I reached out to Dr. Mishulin because he friended me via LinkedIn, so I didn't speak with him directly as much as I wrote to him. And his response was basically, here it is, verbatim. Quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with Entourage. As you state, it means entourage by definition means a group of people attending or surrounding an important person. Here we have a group of compounds surrounding an important active molecule, which is THC.

4:04:05Etienne FontanIn any case, entourage has now been used in literature and changing it will cause a muddle, hence I'll stick with it. When I discussed it with Todd, Ted basically said it's understandable that Dr. Mishulin would say that since he is also the inventor of THC. And so this molecule is also... When you discuss it with...

4:04:25SpeakerWhen you discuss... I didn't hear when you discussed it with... With Todd McCormick.

4:04:29Etienne FontanTodd and I were talking about it because he and I were assisting in this, and I also see Steve Bubbleman, so he was aware of the discussion because we were discussing it so much on Hash Church, whether it was Ensemble or Entourage, so I wanted to go directly to the source since we're all experts. I figured I can reach out and he'll respond, and... I was worried initially that he wouldn't, but he did, and I respect his stance, and the phrase is coined, and it shall be, but I respect that others are choosing to use ensemble effect, which I will continue to use because I think it is more efficacious and more proper nomenclature, but I also respect Dr. Mishulin's choice of use of nomenclature as well.

4:05:15SpeakerWell, I of course respect the Hulim too, but I also respect the principle that in science, where a newer understanding of the thing comes along, that gradually takes over. And I think this is a better understanding of the mechanism. This word implies the mechanisms involved. So, you know, I'm going to continue to use the word ensemble because, to me, that is the word that makes the most sense.

4:05:57SpeakerI wholeheartedly agree. Science gets better every day. Everyone who interprets it, we have new understandings today that we didn't know 10 years ago.

4:06:09SpeakerWe have no problem in other areas of medicine or other areas of science in changing our nomenclature, especially when it's as politically polarized as this particular issue is. So I think we can certainly replace This in our vernacular when talking about the ensemble effect.

4:06:31TonyI would like to chime in on that too, and Mark, I think you'll get a kick out of this being a musician. I respect Mushula as well, as well as Dr. Marzo for then taking the discovery of the receptors and following along in the international cannabinoid research he's done, but I do not like the word Entourage, as much as I subscribe to ensemble, the ensemble is something, when you look at it from a musical standpoint, we only have 12 chromatic notes that create all kinds of music.

4:07:08TonySo whether you listen to the dead, or you listen to classical music, or rock and roll, or punk rock music, or you're listening to some kind of There's 12 chromatic notes and the way that they're played and the way they're put together and the way they're sequenced or ensembled creates a limitless combination, an infinite combination of the way things can evolve. When you say an entourage, that's like me basically just opening weird chords and playing Thank you so much for joining us.

4:08:07SpeakerHaving the piano playing a tune and all the other instruments are going along and just doing whatever they want. It doesn't speak to an ensemble effect.

4:08:20TonyIt's a five-piece jam band all playing something completely different, not in tune. An ensemble means you're in tune. An entourage means you're just randomly playing music.

4:08:32SpeakerExactly. How does modern medicine and the Food and Drug Administration approval process, which has been centered around approving a single active ingredient, change the paradigm to support this type of ensemble effect? Dr. Well, modern medicine is going to have a tough time with this, because you're right. Let's say something like one of the SSRI antidepressants. Each one is approved for depression, but we discovered that there are other uses for this.

4:09:13SpeakerThey're called off-label uses. Once the FDA has approved it for one thing, though, a physician can use it for anything else. If he uses it for something dumb, then he's going to be held accountable for that.

4:09:33SpeakerHow the FDA is going to deal with cannabis, they have no idea. The FDA is attuned to the pharmaceutical industry. This is going to have to be a whole different paradigm. That's why I think we're talking about a whole different kind of medicine, which will I'm getting calls now from doctors who want to know they have a patient and they've heard the cannabis and they would like me to tell them how I would be the person in that hospital that we're talking about in the future where there's a cannabinopathic specialist On the faculty or on the staff who takes all the referrals about that drug.

4:10:31SpeakerAnd I think that's the way it's going to operate at least for a while. But at any rate, I've taken too much of your time and now you've got to get back to the business of your church. But you guys say nice things about me. I have to say, I think you and people like you are the heart. Thank you so much for joining us.

4:11:15SpeakerWell, hey, thanks, Lester, for coming on with us today. We really all appreciate it. I got a lot on. Thank you very much. All right. Take care, Lester.

4:11:26SpeakerSo that leads into several different points. When we look at cannabis as a medicine and how it's going to slowly approach the general acceptance within the medical community, there's going to be three distinct variations in the coming future. Where we actually have to accept that cannabis as a medicine is going to exist in relatively multiple realms. You know, we traditionally and for thousands of years have looked at cannabis as a homeopathic herb that when supplemented into a diet, we actually... Cannabis actually is... ...the general acceptance within the medical community

4:12:15SpeakerSo as we start developing these different isolated ensembles of different phytocannabinoids, terpenoids, polystyrols, and phenols, we're going to go from a raw extracted homeopathic plant's herb and start isolating these compounds into various what we will term nutraceutical drugs. Whether it's by isolation through juicing, extraction, or a More complex biochemistry, we're slowly going through a transition in the world where we're actually taking what was traditionally a homeopathic herb and actually turning it slowly into nutraceuticals and pharmaceuticals.

4:13:00SpeakerNow there's going to be a lot of differentiation in the industry, both positive and negative, on what is a nutraceutical, what is a pharmaceutical, and what is a homeopathic remedy. Virtually any grandma can cultivate cannabis in their yard, make it into a flower or a keep or a medicine that they can then consume. But as we get to a point where we're looking at doing FDA trials and patient doctor review trials, I've gotten a lot of concern from doctors on not being able to have a Standardized milligram dosage that can be prescribed, supervised, tested against placebos as we go through different routes of researching.

4:13:51SpeakerRight now we're only at a point within our industry and very few companies can go beyond the what we call antidotal evidence collection phase. We've still worked on isolation of individual vitacannabinoids and those vitacannabinoids have been researched In FDA and NIDA approved studies, but a lot of those are on single drug molecules. As we start to incorporate the ensemble of different terpenoids and phytocannabinoids with different ratios, the way that we study cannabis as a whole is going to essentially have to change.

4:14:28SpeakerMuch is the same as when you look at the way the FDA approved drugs, they approved single molecule drugs without taking into account that any given doctor across the U.S. may be prescribing more than one FDA approved drug. How those multiple variations of FDA approved drugs synergistically alter our body's neuro biochemistry is not well understood and in many cases it's very difficult to study due to the We have a broad spectrum of different prescription rates and different drugs that are prescribed to different patients and patient subgroups.

4:15:05SpeakerWith cannabis, it's much the same. We have broad spectrum differentiation between the terpenes that are present. Even if you were to take the same strain and culture it in an equatorial climate that has a higher amount of blue light spectrum in the sunlight, Thank you for watching.

4:15:54SpeakerAs we get to a point where we're taking those terpenoids, phytocannabinoid ratios, isolating the individual terpenoids, phytocannabinoids in the ensemble of essential oils, an extract extracted in a similar method from plants that are grown in different climates end up going to end with a different heterozygous mixture in the essential oils. As we get to a point where we're starting to go into clinical trials, we're going to have to actually work on the isolation of individual phytocannabinoids, isolation of the individual terpenoids.

4:16:34SpeakerAnd unfortunately, before we can do any sort of pharmaceutical trials, we're going to have to individually isolate each individual terpenoid phytocannabinoid and recombine them in specific milligram ratios that could then be reproducible.

4:16:53SpeakerThat is a lot more science than a lot of people want to look at in modern medicine. Most people just want to cultivate herbs, take them through a simple extraction process that can create a medicine that is readily accessible, readily consumable. So what we will see is somewhat of a differentiation between the biochemical processing of cannabis nutraceuticals and pharmaceuticals From the different homeopathic uses of cannabis. Now, we ultimately want to have as much homeopathic medicine available in mass to patients and to consumers so that they don't have to go and deal with the tremendous side effects of having to consume pharmaceutical drugs.

4:17:45SpeakerWe want to view cannabis as not only a potential supplement, To our diet, but as well as in the case of terminal cancer, being able to isolate the individual compounds that could then be used to create drug derivatives in order to have isolated drug compounds. What we will see as we start to try and isolate those different compounds is that in our heterozygous mixture of essential oils, there's going to be ways that we can go through the refinement process.

4:18:19SpeakerUnfortunately, for the vast majority of viewers out there and the vast majority of researchers out there, the U.S. government requires that we, in order to change the pH on our extraction and formulation, it requires specific permits that are issued by NIDA. Most people cannot require those permits. It would also require sourcing our medicine from the University of Mississippi, and ultimately, Thank you for joining us today.

4:19:17SpeakerAnd it's an extraction in the form of bubble hash. Now, in doing studies, what we've actually seen is a high pH water versus a low pH water will have different solubilities of different phenols, terpenes, and waxes. One thing that I've ironically seen is the addition of dry ice to water when you're doing your water hash is going to increase the amount of carbonic acid that exists within your water solution.

4:19:44SpeakerCarbonic acid is an acid, and if you test the pH, you'll see a slight decrease in the pH, depending on the amount of carbon dioxide dry ice that you're introducing into your water. Now, obviously, acidic water or a basic water is going to have different, change the polarity of the water, making some terpenes, water-soluble terpenes, less soluble in water, and Some terpenes in the case of increasing the pH, making it less soluble in water.

4:20:20Speaker420 East Coast time. Hey, 420 East Coast time. So as we get to a point where we're going through our extraction process, I've actually seen some really potential benefits of using slightly acidic water in dry ice preparation. And I've actually seen some really beneficial things done where you're actually doing salt water extractions. In the case of using solvents, there's a book that's out there, I believe it's Cannabis Alchemy by, the last name of the author is Gold.

4:21:01SpeakerHe actually goes into different brine water washes, salt water washes, and ether washes, Where you can actually go through and using salt water, alcohol, and ether is his solvent of choice. You can actually go through, remove the chlorophyll because the chlorophyll is going to fall out into the water layer.

4:21:27HoratioOkay, Mike, you've got to hold on because some people in the chat are having trouble following because we started on the three potential tiers of medicine and now we're going into all the different methodologies for removing chlorophyll. And there's no break points. When people are absorbing information, they tend to take what they get from Hash Church and apply it in the week. That's kind of why we slowed down on the salt talk because it became obvious Anybody who would misapply the technique could potentially be smoking chloride.

4:22:00HoratioSo we touched on so many subjects that there's no clear point that someone can extract and apply in their lives. I mean one of the questions I missed from Dr. Greenspoon is somebody was asking desperately what about cannabis in helping with food addiction versus Basically, the person's clearly saying that all this indica weed is making me eat more and that's the last thing I need. I'm just getting high in ordering pizzas and falling out.

4:22:28HoratioThere is an actual pathway to that, but the side effect is potential anxiety. That's an A to B solution to tell the person they have to, if they choose cannabis, to try a sativa diet in order to get out of your appetite and get overstimulated until you do something because cannabis can be used to regulate weight. I believe the Facebook thread that Mark was actually referring to was acid washing and cleaning the chlorophyll out of

4:23:14SpeakerUm, extracts, it's not actually a acid watch, it's a prime salt water wash. Um, obviously we don't want to, we don't want people going too far into it because you'll end up going through a process called trans-acidification where you'll actually end up converting some of your lipids and waxes into unpleasant side effects. Um, but with the extractions, Whether we're doing salt water or the solvent-based extractions, I'm a firm believer that there's different pHs that can actually proactively increase or decrease the efficiencies of a given extraction.

4:24:04SpeakerI know that it's been lightly researched into the salt-based side of using salts as well as acids in Thank you so much for joining us today.

4:24:45SpeakerThere's a term called isomerization where starting in the 70s people would actually look at ways of conversion of precursors, CBGs, CBDs, and THC into its more active state. That's going to be a lot more chemistry than most of the viewers on Past Church are going to want to get into. Yeah, but isomizers, all they did was heat it up, bro. And all it was is now we know it's decarboxylation.

4:25:11SpeakerAnd it's funny because Alan Dronkers, who's the son of Ben Dronkers, they own Sensi Seeds, the Ash Museums, Hempflax, everything. Alan cooperated with Lawrence Cherniak on the hash book. And Alan had, you know, a lot of hash around because his dad owned Sensi Seeds. And he basically... This place in a warm environment for six months or so, and when he got it back out, he felt it was stronger than ever.

4:25:37SpeakerSo he started doing it more often. And really, when he shared it with a few people, they thought, no, Alan, there's no way it improved. But now we know, because now more of us people that make oils for food are now just looking at a table and decarboxylating the acids into Delta 9 or what have you, and then it goes into a foodstuff and it's out the door, it's active.

4:26:00SpeakerAnd we didn't realize that before. And what Alan discovered was simply a low temperature, slower decarboxylation that happens organically. And when you put your hash in your pipe or your grass in your pipe, your lighter is doing all that work of decarboxylating the THCA that's in your substance. So if more of it is decarboxylated before you go to light it, more of your hash has active THC in it, in all respects, you probably get a bigger kick because less of that's happening in the bowl, so to speak, or in the joint, which is the other place your hash would be.

4:26:39HoratioWell, Todd, you know that when you try the clear raw, that is the one time you get to dab a decarboxylated product so clean that it doesn't give you a nasty filth in your mouth. And everyone reports back that that hit is strong as hell. I likened it to refried beans. That's what I do like about that product is you can tell its quality by experiencing it as a dab before using it orally where any other type of, especially in things like food, there was a big issue with, hey, everybody's putting the piss products into food grade because you can't visually see it, where if I'm producing something like the clear, you can visually see that it's been properly decarbed.

4:27:21SpeakerRight, can I address that for a minute, Harry? Because all that's really happening, I mean, you know, a lot of the stuff when you're talking VHO and stuff, you know, everyone was trying to keep it at a low temperature because you're trying to preserve turps. That's the whole name of the game, you know. And we didn't, you know, people didn't even start really taking it over 93 degrees until neopentane entered into the conversation when Secret Cup started doing residual tests on all of the entries.

4:27:45SpeakerAnd that, you know, had people looking at, oh, gee, what are the hydrocarbons left in my product, which changed the conversation completely. And when people realized, okay, I've got to bump up over 95 degrees and agitate my product and I can basically create whatever hydrocarbons that are left and, you know, test pure, And go forward. Now the name of the game is still terpene preservation. So if you actually decarboxylate it, what you've lost are terpenes.

4:28:10SpeakerSo I wouldn't say that it's a harsher substance or it's, you know, it's just that you've lost a lot of those wonderful nuances that made it taste and smell so good at 100 degrees or at 116 degrees where they buttered it at is completely lost at 300 degrees for an hour when it all converts because the terps are gone.

4:28:31HoratioWell, I'm talking about like oral medicine. Like, you know, when you're cooking it for like an edible, it's still a blind go at its decarboxylation. Is it 100%? Did I over... A lot of people will tell me, you know, I make a really killer edible. And I'm like, what do you do? I cook this stuff for a super long time in a special way. And I'm like, you're making CBN soup.

4:28:52HoratioI needed THC therapy, not CBN therapy. You have to know there's a difference and you can't just cook things to shit or you lose what THC offers.

4:29:01SpeakerAnd not to discredit the many people, because I know a lot of people that are actually testing the oils prior to it going into the edibles, and they know exactly what's in the oil that they're putting in the edibles, and they're making quality edibles that are actually as true to the label as they can do, because they have no intention on misleading anybody. They're not even trying to mislead themselves.

4:29:21SpeakerThey're trying to just figure it out like we all are. And now that they have scientific-grade vacuum ovens and they can punch in the temperature that they're going to sit there and degas at, Thank you for watching.

4:29:51SpeakerThese oils, certain amount of terpenes and certain amount of cannabinoids are going to need certain amounts of time because they're not going to degas. They're not going to affect each other the same way. Terpenes are going to be volatile. We see it now all the way down into oil pressed out of flowers because the terpenes are trying to escape. The molecules are just separating away from each other.

4:30:12SpeakerI think we're all learning so much, if you will.

4:30:18Etienne FontanNot only are we learning, but the pharmaceutical industry is learning. They tried to isolate Rabinoban, Raminobant, which was isolated from cannabis, and it was used as a weight loss drug.

4:30:35SpeakerI don't think it's isolated from cannabis. I think that's a synthetic.

4:30:41Etienne FontanOriginally, the idea was synthesized from cannabis. It's not cannabis, but the original concept. So they created it, spent a billion dollars practically on getting it to trial, and what happened is it was just a single isolated compound. It caused suicides. Too many, so many that they had to pull the product. So the one isolated compound that they thought they found through cannabis that they thought was applicable to weight loss, it turned out to cause such a

4:31:11SpeakerDr. Actually, to get this straight, it was not a product of cannabinoid. They figured out how to block a cannabinoid receptor that they thought would trigger hunger. And if you all look it up, that's what you'll see they were doing because they were trying to create inhibitor drugs. And it's inhibitor drugs that caused the problem because when they inhibited what they thought was going to be one biometric function, it inhibited a whole bunch of unintended consequences.

4:31:39SpeakerAnd the suicide and the depression and stuff were those unintended consequences. It's not made by cannabis at all. The molecule itself has two methyl groups noticeably on the C5 tail off the benzene ring. And you'll see with those two methyl groups there, those are not made by the plant. The plant only makes the C4 and C5 tail. It doesn't make it with the two methyl groups. That's a synthetic compound made by a drug company and patented.

4:32:12SpeakerAnd failed. Failed, right. Sorry, I forgot to add that.

4:32:17Etienne FontanThat's the most important because they tried to block a CBD receptor thinking they were going to get the type of results that they thought, and inherently they ended up causing such major depression that it's rather interesting because it also proved the need for saturation of our own endocannabinoid system.

4:32:40SpeakerYes.

4:32:42Etienne FontanUnfortunately, at the cost of lives.

4:32:49SpeakerIt's called a cannabinoid receptor antagonist. That's right. Yeah. Yep. If you look at the chemical structure, if you look at the chemical structure, if you're used to looking at the chemical structure of cannabinoids, there's a C5 tail in the southeast portion of the molecule. You'll notice that this molecule doesn't have a C5. It's got a C7. There's two extra methyl groups on that, benzylic carbon. That's completely not natural and synthetic.

4:33:19Etienne FontanYeah, it's a synthetic chemical that blocks endocannabinoids from being received in the brain and as a result suppresses appetite.

4:33:27SpeakerYeah, it's basically, it is a key to the lock, and in my analogy, it's a key to the lock, but it doesn't quite open the lock like it should.

4:33:45SpeakerSo, always light conversations.

4:33:49BubblemanYeah, today's been a pretty heavy hash church going strong for four and a half hours. Like, boom.

4:33:56SpeakerI just love when I hear hash makers talk so much chemistry. I mean, you guys are talking about molecules and... Well, do you want to know something right there, Mark? So fucking cool to know that this community is so hungry for the chemistry knowledge. It thrills me. It recharges my battery every week to sit here in this room. You know what? I would like to say, because I have old friends in Europe that are hash heads.

4:34:19SpeakerAnd I love hash. You know, and I hate to say it in a way now, and I joke that what hashish means to me is contaminants. Not in a mean way, plant material from cannabis, I don't have anything against, but when you start talking about non-glanular trichromes and like pieces of plant material and what have you being mixed in with it, that's what we think of as hash.

4:34:40SpeakerBut now that we're seeing these pure slabs of cannabinoids and terpenes People are starting to look at it and go, hey, wow, I'm just seeing sugar and spice and everything nice and nothing else. You know, you got people holding up slabs that are nothing more than, you know, THC, CBD, whatever, and terpenes, and it's really something we couldn't achieve before. And I think because of the literal transparency of the shatter, we're starting to look through it and start to see it for what it really is instead of just saying hashish, you know, which is cool.

4:35:11SpeakerI love hashish, don't get me wrong, but... We're now starting to look at it in a more analytical way just because we're forced to because now what's sitting on the table is a puddle of almost pure THC and that's really remarkable. I don't think anyone in the early 90s would have thought, you know, dude, shatters around the corner. You know what I mean? Yeah, well, I mean, again, I've made this analogy a few times.

4:35:36SpeakerWe talked about it earlier with the industry is that, you know, vineyards don't sell Grape, although they rely on grapes and certainly the genetics of the grape provides all of the flavor in the wine, vineyards sell wine and so really the refined model I think these days in the cannabis industry is turn that entire grow into oil. Get the concentrate off the plant. It's great smoking flower.

4:36:02SpeakerI'm not against smoking flower at all. All I'm saying is the value is in that oil and the oil, again, I think like Things like Tony, what he's doing and formulating and looking at different ratios and trying to get a feedback loop of essentially clinical efficacy outside the clinic, I think is what's going to convince the Lester Grinspoons of the world, the medical doctors and the rest of the medical community that this is a legitimate way to treat certain medical conditions and should be the first alternative before giving Thank you so much for joining us.

4:36:58SpeakerWhich is something we don't have when we're consuming raw cannabis. As much as I'm going to smoke pot until I'm dead, it's always inconsistent bud from bud. There's no two ways around it. But the oil, no. And if you're someone that's suffering with something serious, you need consistency. Right. And it brings the level of awareness to the consumer, say, around pesticides. I'm sure we all saw that article where a whole bunch of weed in Colorado had to be destroyed because of pesticide contamination.

4:37:27SpeakerNow that many consumers are choosing concentrates and extracts, you're going to be concentrating anything that comes off the plant, including pesticides, so it creates a more informed user base and a more informed industry to make sure that best practices and the safest practices are used, especially when it's coming in contact with With sick patients and particularly children. Right. You know, that was the main reason I started looking at the water pH and if we could alter our pH of water using electrolysis as opposed to using, you know, pesticides for either side of things, you know, or antifungicides, we would be better off because nobody wants to add anything, be it, you know, hash water people or, you know, people using whatever medium.

4:38:14SpeakerWe don't want anything but cannabis, terpenes and cannabinoids in our mix. And I think that the water, you know, but I warn people this, if you're going to play with the machines, don't spray high alkaline water on a plant that's heavily in the flower because it will literally have the ability of acting as a solvent and rinsing off the resin. And you don't want that to happen.

4:38:37SpeakerYou know, so this is, you know, if people play with it, I would say, you know, apply it gingerly and experiment in small portions. You know, don't go spraying your whole crop with some, you know, pH 9 water because you heard me say this because, you know, you could literally rinse away the resin and a lot of the waxes that naturally occur on the leaf that protect the plant.

4:38:57SpeakerJust saying.

4:39:01SpeakerI totally agree, Todd. I've had that issue. I've had PM extremely late in flower and the only way to get rid of it is with extremely high pH water. The only way to do that is just to slowly do it and to progressively find what works. Otherwise, you're completely removing the resin and you're damaging the pH of the plant. Ultimately, you're destroying the pH of the plant and the next day your plants are Thank you so much for joining us today.

4:39:51SpeakerEmulsion stability. You'll find certain pHs will crash out in emulsion. Other pHs will make them liquid clear, just like Todd's example showed. I believe we're more pH sensitive than we're led to believe. I mean, you know, we've been really nutritionally naive for the last hundred years. We only figured out vitamins and minerals in the 30s and 40s, really. And we only figured out EFAs in the 70s and 80s, really.

4:40:16SpeakerAnd, you know, we're still continuing to learn all we don't know about our nutrition and our body balance. So...

4:40:25SpeakerI think it's important as a grower that we don't introduce foreign things to cannabis when we're trying to actually sell it as a medicine, and I would rather see a grower, you know, rinse off the, you know, not use moldy material, but try to rinse it off with something natural, then leave a deposit on it with sulfur or something else, because that's the other option is sulfur burners through flowering, and then it's in the product, and, you know.

4:40:48BubblemanThat's the worst. In 1999, well, really, 98 was the first time I saw a water hash, but 99 was when I really started promoting it and I really started making a lot of it. And it's when I started my company, Fresh Headies and Bubble Bags. And the amount of hash that I started making back then, I'll never forget it. It was early on and suddenly I got this beautiful material and I went to run it and the hash smelled like someone lit a pack of matches just by Just by a small hit of it.

4:41:20BubblemanSo what I eventually learned how to do was to test the material by just grabbing a handful of it and a little pinch full and lighting it with a lighter, not a match, and then closing my eyes and smelling the smoke that came off the material. And nine out of ten times nowadays I can smell that. It used to be called Defender back in the 90s, but it could have many other names.

4:41:43BubblemanIt's a sulfur type burning product and It's definitely bad news. It seems to bond or breach the glandular trichome head, and I never managed to get any macro photos of this, but I would really like to look into it, because no matter what, you didn't seem to be able to wash this shit away. It transferred in water, sift, obviously. Oil guys couldn't deal with it. It turned, and it concentrated the nasty smell on material that many back then could not discover.

4:42:12BubblemanThey couldn't tell that it was even there on plant matter. And when I discovered it, I went to the Compassion Club and I actually helped them, you know, start testing for this simple way to keep this product out of the, you know, this was going back many, many years, 15, 16 years, to keep that product out because people would spray these sulfur burners and this Defender product onto their plants deep into flower just to Thank you for joining us.

4:43:07SpeakerWhich is a mixture of copper sulfate and I think there's a base in there. I think it's lime. So lime and copper sulfate basically makes a fungicidal mixture. I don't know that anyone's ever used Bordeaux mixture to control powdery mildew on cannabis, but certainly it's worked for years with grapes. So the Bordeaux mixture actually works phenomenally up until the crowning point. What you will see is the sulfur will actually adhere and get absorbed by the pistols after the point that the plant crowns.

4:43:47SpeakerSulfur is one of those compounds that in our vast amount of experimentation, it's very hard to isolate sulfur from several of the terpenes because its temperature of vaporization is so close to that that we're working with. When applying products like sulfur and neem to plants in vegetative matter, the vegetative matter oftentimes does not carry over the vegetative leaves, are not carried into the flowers. So there's a time and a place for everything.

4:44:26SpeakerYou had to consult several gardens that had to, you know, Under Washington State's 502 law, the producers have a 15-day window where they bring in their genetics. Oftentimes, they source genetics from a variety of different gardens. They bring them into their new license. In several cases, we've seen gardens that brought in genetics that were not clean. They had to get treated by pesticides. Now, Washington State has a 250-some-odd pesticide list.

4:45:01SpeakerBut if that have been approved by a pesticide, which is a quarter of the size of the number of pesticides that are approved for apples on the state of Washington. Yeah, but let me put a caveat in there. I think with a lot of those regulations, I've looked at both the list for here in the U.S. as well as Europe. You know, a lot of those thresholds don't assume that you're actually combusting the product.

4:45:26SpeakerA lot of those are oral or skin or contact products. What they look for is any effect at any level and they try to assess how many orders of magnitude you need to be away from where they observe some negative effect in some animal test to what they allow to be on products that come in contact with humans. So certainly you're absolutely right. In fact, what makes an agrochemical today, a fungicide, insecticide, Herbicide is not a compound or a chemical that kills weeds or fungus or insects.

4:46:05SpeakerWhat makes a chemical today like Roundup, unfortunately, is one that they have a profile to that shows by the time that produce gets to the market that there is no harm or effect. And so that's the agrochemical industry that's not necessarily serving the cannabis industry. Yeah, and just because the state may have studied it and be able to say, okay, we do not see a reason for these specific chemicals to have a specific undesirable effect on the body's biochemistry, it does not mean that they don't have negative effects on the flavors and Subsequent side effects and side reactions that occur in the consumption.

4:46:55SpeakerThere's a big group of reasons why we try and promote all natural cultivation, probiotic cultivation, whatever you want to call it, because the feds won't let us call it organic.

4:47:09SpeakerIf you look at the chemical structure of a lot of the new low-use rate insecticides, the Neonics or any of these, they're rich with nitrogen. These heterocycles, when they burn, like if they're being burned because they're on the herb or in the ash, they make very noxious compounds that you don't want to be inhaling deep into your lungs. Certainly, to know that That flour and concentrates are being tested for pesticide residue I think is an extremely important product stewardship for the industry to tackle and to be out in front of the curve on, absolutely.

4:47:49Etienne FontanAnd we are. We're trying. Everyone's trying in their prospective states as much as these laboratories will work with us.

4:47:57BubblemanDude, how about that for a five-hour long hash church? I'm going to have another dab. And in fact, I'm going to finish it off with a dab of Horatio's Distillate.

4:48:11Etienne FontanHey, I want to give a shout out to that Marine in Oklahoma. I got the charges dropped against him. Christopher Lewandowski, so we should burn one to his freedom.

4:48:23BubblemanYes, absolutely. And you know what? Simultaneously, there was a girl who wrote in to me. Her name was Rachel Lee. And it was about her boyfriend, Zach, and it's his 19th birthday today, and he's like, loves Hash Church and watches every episode, and he's usually in the chat room chatting away under the name Taylor Sift. And I just wanted to shout out a happy birthday to him today.

4:48:47BubblemanSo that was from your girl, Rachel, giving you the Hash Church shout out. Zach, aka Taylor Sift. Great, hilarious name, by the way. Gotta love that name. Yeah. So to both of them, birthday boy and the guy, what was his name again, Etienne?

4:49:09Etienne FontanChris, with a K, Lewandowski, L-E-W-A-N-D-O-W-S-K-I. He's a Marine, a fellow veteran, a combat veteran, and he uses it for PTSD, and hopefully this will be the end of his trials and tribulations. He can go on being a free man.

4:49:28BubblemanYep, absolutely. Here's to you, buddy.

4:49:42BubblemanI will quickly mention the Hash Church group on Facebook. Please check it out guys if you're not already on there. Todd and Etienne have already posted great parts of the things that we spoke about today from the high alkaline water and the CB1 and 2 receptors. Definitely join that group, Hash Church, and if you're looking for more chatty chat while the week is very long between Hash Churches, go check out my forum, FullMeltBubble.com, and the chat there.

4:50:15BubblemanUsually there's a guy in there by the name of Rastafari and another guy by the name of Irie Ice Wax, and they're pretty chill holding it down. You can go down there and... Chat away, ask some questions, but really for anything Hash Church related, like things you want to hear about in the next upcoming week, post that stuff in the Hash Church group. It is closed, so when you post in there, it doesn't show up on your Facebook page.

4:50:42BubblemanAnd thank you everyone for coming in. Wow, what a great Hash Church. Todd, always a pleasure to have you in Hash Church going off on your fucking awesome rants that everyone likes, even as it's happening. Like people in chat, they're like, oh, here we go. All right, Todd. Knock it out of the park. Todd for president. Yeah, Todd. Like it's fucking awesome, dude. And I do appreciate it and bringing in wonderful guests like Lester and, you know, Tricone Technologies, Kay, and Frenchie Cannoli and all the great people.

4:51:16BubblemanI mean, geez, you brought ATN to us.

4:51:18SpeakerWhat do you think about bringing Mel Frank on?

4:51:21BubblemanI think that anyone that you think you want to bring on, I support. Obviously, Mel Frank. That's just ridiculous. I mean, he's Mel Frank.

4:51:30SpeakerHe was with us at Chalice. The event was fantastic, by the way. Really, attention to detail was really obvious. And, you know, huge shout out to Dougie for trying so hard. And pulling it off, you know, he really, you know, there's places to sit, there was things to drink, there was food everywhere, was all the things that a lot of the events are not. And it really, you know, catering to your audience was It was nice.

4:51:57SpeakerIt reminded me of the secret sessions that are going on that you might do where they're giving away water and they're giving away food and they're giving away samples. It reminds me of early Amsterdam where people were being more generous and sharing the inspiration with others. I hope that that theme is picked up on.

4:52:16BubblemanAbsolutely. Well, I appreciate your time that you spend here with us as well as Mark Scaldoni. Laying it down for us, playing us music, giving us chemistry.

4:52:30BubblemanBeing an all-around inspiration, and I've got to thank Horatio because he turned me on to you and to get you in here and invite you in here. I appreciate you as well, Horatio, ATN, D420K. We had Ramon in here today. He's been listening, paying good attention. Hope everything is good, Ramon.

4:52:53BubblemanYeah, man, very good, very good. You've been extracting and continuing to raise the bar on a regular basis, I hope.

4:53:03BubblemanA little quick reply to OG Bobby, who's asking me a question in chat. Thanks for coming in as well, D420K. I'm not sure you're there anymore. And Phil, I know it was short but sweet. Hopefully we'll get you in earlier next time. You can tell us about what you're up to and what's going on.

4:53:28SpeakerThanks a lot, man. Just struggling with cluster migraines really early in the morning. It's quite a tough thing to try to get out of bed and rough to church. Thanks for having me, though.

4:53:38BubblemanHey, bro. How you doing, buddy?

4:53:39SpeakerGood. How are you, bro? How's it going?

4:53:41BubblemanGood. All right. Awesome Hash Church, guys. Five solid hours of impeccableness. I appreciate all of you for coming in and sharing your time. And thank you, Dr. Lester Grinspoon, for coming in literally and blowing everyone away with your presence. It was awesome. Thanks, everybody. Until next week, Hash Church. Keep watching.

4:54:03SpeakerAwesome, man.