Holiday Reflections and Mothership Hype

0:00BubblemanWell, good morning, everyone. Welcome to Hash Church, episode 65, the last Hash Church of 2015. It's going to be the last one. Let me just send out these emails and all of these messages real quick. Get over to the live stream from YouTube so I can shut the... Audio off before it does a little... Here we come. Get that off. Perfect. Welcome, everyone. Adrian Baker, Redline, Jimmy Buzzle, Jim King, John Bufello, Taste Buds.

0:31Etienne FontanI did shut the audio off before it does a little... There's another one.

0:35BubblemanThere's another one. Welcome, everyone. Adrian Baker, Redline, Jimmy Buzzle. Good morning. I tried my best not to have that repeat like that. I had two YouTube. You know how hard it is to... Open the chat, send out emails, Skypes, Messenger, and one other. Well, good morning. How are you guys doing?

0:56Etienne FontanGood morning, sir. How are you?

1:00BubblemanI'm good. I basically am coming out of a wicked two-day flu. Christmas Day, my entire family got sick, both my kids. My little son was sick the day before, but on Christmas Day, the next day, my son, my daughter, my wife, and myself, We're destroyed. Destroyed. I'm sorry to hear that. Ah, you know what? It doesn't happen very often. I'll tell you one thing. It was really quite incredible because everyone was puking all throughout the day.

1:29BubblemanIt didn't happen to me until 5 in the morning, and I was basically puffing all day. And I'd feel a little sick, and I'd puff, and it would go away. And I'd feel a little sick hours later, and I'd puff, and it would go away. But once I went to bed around 2 o'clock... Two to three o'clock without the puffing, and boom, the nausea hit me hard.

1:49BubblemanSo enough about my puke. How are you guys doing?

1:53Etienne FontanDoing great. Had a great holiday season. It was nice to know I had some family over, Christmas tree and all, and smoked some great hash, had a great day yesterday, went down to Monterey to the Aquarium Museum. Nice. Just had a nice, mellow couple of days to end up the new year.

2:13BubblemanOh, very nice, very nice. How about you, Mark?

2:16Etienne FontanHow was your holiday?

2:17Dr Mark ScialdoneVery much the same, just very low-key and mellow. I'm here all by myself. My wife and daughter flew off to the in-laws, so... Got the house to myself so I can do hash church from any room in the house today.

2:31BubblemanI was just going to say, I was like, Mark's in a different room today.

2:35Etienne FontanMark, are you wearing pants from the waist down? Are you just running around just with a shirt on? Is that what you're telling me?

2:43Dr Mark ScialdoneI'm in my kitchen today because it just happens to be where I am.

2:47Etienne FontanAwesome. So is some kitchen chemistry? Is that what's going to happen?

2:50Dr Mark ScialdoneI've been making some chocolates. Chocolate is just a wonderful vehicle, as you know. It's just a great starting material to play with.

3:00Etienne FontanIs that your favorite ingestion for edibles is chocolate?

3:04Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, yeah. I've been doing just what everyone else does, which is just coconut oil infusion into chocolates, trying to make a caramel, trying to come up with a better caramel recipe. What genetic were you using? I'm sorry? What genetics are you using? This is mostly outdoor. Let's see. There was some Buddha in there. There was also some airborne G13. Let's see. I'm trying to think. Some of the other samples that we have, which is sort of like a mix of shake from a couple different strains.

3:49Dr Mark ScialdoneThat was just kind of like a catch-all to say, okay, we're going to make edibles out of that. That's basically what happened to that.

3:55Etienne FontanHey, Mark, can I ask you a work question since you work for Hive? I don't know if you can answer this or not. Do you know when, somebody asked me this the other day, do you know when the mothership bowl and rotating tool is going to come out? From you guys, we've seen prototypes. People are asking in places, so... Do you have any idea when those may arrive?

4:16Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I think those honey buckets are out. I mean, I could definitely... Is that what you're talking about? The Mothership Club?

4:22Etienne FontanYeah, the Mothership buckets, they're basically 14 mil. It's in a shape like the Mothership Bowl and has the Mothership side with the... Yeah, the gold emblem there.

4:31Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's pretty cool. Yeah, those were, I think, released last week. I think they were released last week, just before Christmas. I can check into it. I'll check in during church today and... Give everyone an update when I find out.

4:43BubblemanTalking about the bucket, right, ATN, this little guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

4:47Dr Mark ScialdoneSo this is an all-white ceramic bucket, right?

4:50BubblemanYes, I know it. Made out of ceramic by Hive.

4:53Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, exactly. Yep, yep, yep.

4:55BubblemanI got the tools, man.

4:58Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, right on, Mark.

4:59BubblemanHey, so I wanted to give a quick shout-out to...

5:05BubblemanPow Baked Goods. It's an Instagram account. P-A-O B-A-K-E-D G-O-O-D-S It's a buddy of mine's girlfriend who kicked me down some really nice little chocolates for Christmas. She gave me three little chocolates and I kind of pigged out and ate them all at once. But man, they were nice. They had caramel inside and they were really professionally made and I would urge you guys to go check out her Instagram account and if you're in Vancouver, they were really nice chocolates, so definitely something worth looking into while we were talking about chocolates and medicinals.

5:44Etienne FontanI want to give a quick shout out to On The Rise to Peter and Bryce for this cool shirt they made. I never get cool BPG stuff, so somebody made that and I just want to give them a shout out and a thanks.

5:55BubblemanVery nice, dude. I noticed that shirt today, actually.

5:57Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, Mark. I was going to mention when you were going to get the guy in from SC Labs to talk about testing, and you'd mentioned something about Roy Upton, who I think is the editor of the AHP monograph. Yes. I'm pretty good friends with Jehan Marku, who certainly we can probably see if he's available to jump into church if you're interested in having him

6:30BubblemanI'd love to get all those guys at once. I'd love to get Alec from SC Labs and Roy and Kevin and this gentleman you're talking about and yourself. I actually had mentioned it to a few people today that if I had it organized I was really only going to invite a few of the regular panel in, like yourself included, and then let it really be this sort of four, five, six person group of really talking about all these things.

6:55Etienne FontanYeah, I also have a guy in Berkeley from CW Labs. I can also get him involved because he's been very helpful as well.

7:02BubblemanI think it would be nice, you know, just to offer something different to the people, get some fresh new faces in and, you know, get a little deeper into the conversation.

7:11Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, so if you want to target like an upcoming Sunday, Mark, like, you know, like in a week or so or a couple weeks from now, let me know and I'll see if Jehan's available and I'll

7:21Etienne FontanHey, Skeldone, do you have Trello? Because we have this Trello thing that we use to design during the week. I do.

7:29BubblemanSure, go ahead. Send me the link. Yeah, true enough. I haven't used Trello for a while, but it is very helpful just to plan a show. Matt, I'll tell you, the week goes by fast. We have all these great ideas on a Sunday, and then it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and my wife's like, hey, you have Hash Church tomorrow, right? I'm like, what? Oh, my God.

7:50BubblemanOkay.

7:53BubblemanDriving me crazy. Cold greetings from Denmark, from the Grinch. I didn't know the Grinch lived in Denmark. Is that, that's interesting.

8:01Etienne FontanHey, let's do a bong hit to the great solstice that just passed us.

8:06BubblemanOoh, a bong rip. Man, I'll tell you, it's Boxing Day.

8:10Etienne FontanUnfortunately, our man hasn't come on to stream our regular bong rip. I don't know where he is, but regardless, let us bong rip, sir.

8:18Dr Mark ScialdoneDoes Boxing Day have anything to do with boxing?

8:24BubblemanBoxing Day, well, what was yesterday, Boxing Day? I think so, wasn't it? Interesting, because I watched the Rocky, the new one, Creed, just a bit of it yesterday, so I was watching Boxing on Boxing Day. It's got to count for something. You were getting punchy. Baby bong rips.

8:45Dr Mark ScialdoneSo I've just gotten a real-time update from Kyle. They've landed in the warehouse. They're doing the final QC in packaging and inventory as we speak. And they'll get orders out. So the short version is they're here. They're available any day now. And if you say that you heard it on Hash Church, I guess you get some kind of special deal. Is that right? They'll sell it in a day.

9:12Dr Mark ScialdoneSo move on. They heard it on Hash Church. Maybe you get some kind of discount. I don't know.

9:18BubblemanThe Hash Church discount. Well, you know, one of these days when I order up mine, I'll show it being used on Hash Church. It's very much the same as this except ceramic, which is great. You know, the cost on these mothership bowls are absolutely astronomical. I think that I could sell this little unused unit with the dial, the quartz, and the bucket. For about $400 or $500, which shocked me when I heard that people were flipping clear, even just taking the dial out, you know, just taking this little guy out you can sell for some absorbent amount of money.

9:54BubblemanIt's quite ridiculous how much mothership is. So I think hype is alive and well.

10:00Etienne FontanThe hype is alive and well. Scale down, how much is real for? Do you have any idea?

10:06Dr Mark ScialdoneI'm asking that right now, and I just said, Mark, that you should be sent one complimentary, so let's see if we can get you a complimentary Hash Church Honey Bucket here.

10:18BubblemanSome people are saying $550 US that people are paying for these. $550 US, which is about $700 Canadian dollars.

10:29Etienne FontanAnd that's for the quarts that will burn.

10:33BubblemanYeah, that's the core. It's with slit. I have a slit one. Now I make them slitless. You can see the little slit right here.

10:43BubblemanI don't use them. I am a denail guy and I don't use torches.

10:47Dr Mark ScialdoneYou just got one, buddy.

10:51BubblemanWell, I'll use a torch for this. I have a hard time using a bowl that I can sell for $700.

10:57Etienne FontanWell, that's why I was looking at what I was asking for the hive, because when I travel, I like to take a bowl that I can leave wherever I go. I would rather leave something that's ceramic than leave something that's titanium that's mined, you know what I'm saying? For me, I want to enjoy the flavor of the slits. Mark, will those fit with the slit and without the slit?

11:19Etienne FontanBecause when I use them, it's quicker to light with the slit, but if you like a bigger blob, a slit won't work.

11:26BubblemanAll I can say is this, these are the most enjoyable to puff out of compared to the banger. I will say that much. These are incredible. You know, with the carb cap.

11:37Etienne FontanBut you prefer the banger though?

11:39BubblemanNo, I prefer the mothership ones, but I can't bring myself to smoking out of my clear mothership honey bucket because I could just sell it for 700 bucks. I would rather have 700 bucks all day long than that bowl, if that makes any sense.

11:56Etienne FontanSo my question was to scale down. Will it come with a slit inside?

12:00Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, yeah. So I'm getting information from Kyle. It says 300 retail for the set, the bucket, swing, two arms, and OFZ cap.

12:13BubblemanYes, this is the OFZ right here. It says 150 wholesale.

12:25Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's about half of the price of what Mothership charges for theirs.

12:29Etienne FontanWow. That's very reasonable, man. I think they'll do well with those. I'd rather have those for when I'm traveling because, again, they're, I hate to say they're disposable, but at the same time, the flavor is really good out of the portion. I've been really enjoying it. I got the Hive Bowl for my traveler with the cap, and I must say I have really enjoyed the flavor and the...

12:53Etienne FontanYeah, good stuff, so keep up the great work there, Hive.

12:57Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, that's the boys at Hive.

13:01Etienne FontanAnd I don't work for them. I only talk about things that I like, and I only hype things that I don't like, because I have no company. That's what I was asking, because when we were at the Emerald Cup the other day, I saw a lot of images of Brady Taylor, so he had no idea when it was actually coming out, so glad to know they're out.

13:25BubblemanTyler is saying that Mothership only charges $3.50 for a full set, but people put extra money on them when they flip them. That is the Mothership hype, of course.

13:35Etienne FontanIt would be nice to see the money on this thing direct.

13:38BubblemanMothership would own if they stopped selling to everyone and did all direct sales. That's what I would love to see Mothership do. Because basically they're selling $900 eggs and people are flipping them for $3,000. It's like, why wouldn't Mothership just make that happen?

13:53Etienne Fontan$3,000, $4,000 all day long. I wish I could get hold of them. I'd love to order a custom one myself, but can't get hold of them through their site. So their site's not even up, but. Yeah, they're beautiful stuff, and I agree. But I think if it were just constantly only about the supply and demand thing. Yeah. But as more supply comes up, the hype still hasn't stopped.

14:14Etienne FontanIt continues to go up. All of our pipes, I guarantee if we sold them, we could definitely get much more than what we paid for them. And I find it interesting, especially for clear glass. As a former glass seller myself, especially the colored glass, But to see such loyal branding in the community, along with what we were talking about last week with Marcel and Glass Art, it's interesting to see what the community themselves or the public, John Q public, has deemed worthy, and not only that, have deemed art worthy, have elevated to the price where they will pay for bongs.

14:54Etienne FontanYou kids are paying thousands for bongs that I could have, one, never afforded or even thought to have the idea of. In your age, much less in my age at 46 nowadays. So, I find it fascinating, again, as an art movement, as a cultural movement, how supply, demand, and what people will pay for, as well as flavor. I honestly say I love my motherships for the simple fact of flavor.

15:20Etienne FontanI get so much flavor through them compared to other pipes. I love Mobius. I've had Mobius and others, but I've just found myself gravitating toward things that I love, and There's no way that this niche market isn't going to continue to expand, to grow, because you've got some very talented glassblowers. When I was at Chalice this year, the glassblowers there all blowing and all the unique glass was highly supported.

15:51Etienne FontanI mean, people take great interest in this community. It's very rare that any industry has an art association One tied to it, much less, that is found supported, put upon its own pedestals. I mean, you've got certain glass floors that are put on their own from going back from Toro to, before that, Jerome Baker to, you know, Snodgrass, who really started a lot of the glass and colored glass.

16:20Etienne FontanBut, I mean, Mark, you yourself have photographed some of the most amazing things Motherships yourself, so you see the quality, you see how many different people, how many people does it take to make on average one pipe?

16:36BubblemanNo knowledge whatsoever of who, how, why, what, but I appreciate it. I love the fact that without a shadow of a doubt, you know, they stepped it up. I'll say he stepped it up because really Mothership, you know, is a ton of amazing artists, but let's be honest, the soul of Mothership is Scott Deppie. He started that company. He brought in those glass blowers and he trained and taught and learned from and, you know, Quave and Dosa and all of those guys.

17:07BubblemanI have the utmost respect for them and I don't, I'm not sitting here bitching about them, you know, not getting the value for their pipes. I just find that, you know, I used to sell herb and if you made a hundred bucks a pound, that was like, people were like trying to grind you down. It's like, oh, you don't need to make a hundred on each one.

17:22BubblemanCome on, just make 50. And it's like, These stores are making thousands of dollars off of glass pipes. They are literally one pipe. That seems like a very large price to tag on. Like when you're making as much as say the people who blew the pipe, that seems to me to be too much. Just from my perspective.

17:45Etienne FontanBut that's art. That was one of the reasons why I got out of the art world, because it's not controlled by the artist. It's controlled by the buyer. So that's where I find sociologically fascinating is that you, the stoners, find enough in these glass pipes to not only pay the price, then to pay the upward price, then the black market price. I mean, if you look on Facebook at the Mothership Glass Group and see...

18:10Etienne FontanWhat these pipes are actually trading for, the price isn't going down. It's interesting that these kids are outbidding each other and causing now these elite motherships that are now colored to sell in the five figures, and I'm talking 20 to 25K offers for pipes and people who buy them, which only continues to perpetuate and support, again, this art movement, but at the same time, This fascination, again, sociological fascination, I want to have one of the best ever.

18:43BubblemanWell, here's an example. Here's a perfect example. A mothership mini. They just got these new ones in. I think they're called Fialoris. It's got incredible sandblasting work all over it, okay? So I look at one of these, and I know that a mothership mini on a high end, like an expensive one, costs $1,500 U.S. You can find them for $1,000 U.S., but the brand new, newest everything, $1,500 U.S., The new, with the sandblasted work, is just under 6,000 Canadian, which is around 48 to 5,000 US.

19:18BubblemanSo that sandblasting work, the end user is paying 4,000 US dollars for that sandblasting work. And I'm just wondering... Yeah, it's a pipe. But it's the same pipe. It's the same pipe. They just sandblasted it and made it look really beautiful. It's got patterns all over it. It would be like, you know... It's work, don't get me wrong. The artist is, like, it is incredible, impeccable work.

19:43BubblemanBut 100% for sure, it doesn't affect the hit, the taste, the flavor, or any of that. It's really a visual thing. But for 4,000 US dollars, I have to say, I'm just not that baller. Like, just not that baller. How you doing, Tony? Yes.

20:06BubblemanGood, brother. How are you doing? You guys have a good Christmas out there? I'm getting real sick. My whole family, we were all just like deathly ill for like the last two days.

20:18SpeakerThat's horrible. That's absolutely horrible to be sick on the holidays. How about you guys?

20:25Etienne FontanI had a great, easy, mellow, chill. I have a family with me and I have to go run out and Go have some fun today. So much love. I hope you all have a great Christmas at church. I shall see you all next week.

20:41Dr Mark ScialdoneDid he just say bye? I think so.

20:46BubblemanThanks for coming in, brother. Much appreciated. A little mothership conversation.

20:53SpeakerWhat about you, Mark?

20:55Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I just had a really chill holiday. My son came back from college. It's like Wow. Yeah, having him back, now he's gone, right? Yeah.

21:07SpeakerYou're old enough to have a son from college.

21:10Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, it's hard to believe. Yeah, we must have done something right, right? So they just want to know, just like the cats in the cradle said, you know, where's the car keys? Please, you know, they're gone. Yeah, I got the whole house to myself so I can brought from any room and house today. That's pretty cool.

21:32BubblemanPeople are wondering why Etienne left. I totally missed it. He was busy. He had to go do some stuff.

21:38SpeakerYeah, family stuff. Can you imagine?

21:40BubblemanOh, wow. Well, I'm glad he stopped in and said hi to us. Anyway, people in the chat are like, what happened? Why is Etienne gone? I'm like, he got super mad. He's out of here.

21:54BubblemanYes, nice to have the holidays done and done with. We've got the last... Hash Church of 2015 is what we've got going on here right now.

22:07SpeakerOh yeah.

22:10BubblemanThat's how the new Terps went out. People were looking excited. I saw all the different names. Very nice, very nice.

22:16SpeakerYeah, there was, you know, one thing that I get over and over and over is people always ask, like, why would you want to use Terpings? And, you know, it's not, this is how I recommend it. You know, the point is to not take them on their own. I mean, sure, you could try to dab them as a standalone product, but that's not really how to best use it.

22:44SpeakerAnd as we discussed on this several times, there's not a lot of studies that are out there and it's pure form of what that is. If you look at flowers, that's 1 to 3 percent. Terpenes, you look at concentrates, 5 to 7. You know, having like a half of a drop to a half a gram of rosin or to a gram of rosin, it's going to increase your percentage maybe a couple points, you know, 2 or 3 percent.

23:09SpeakerSo you're getting a flavor out of it and you're getting the modulation effect out of it. And if you don't have any cannabinoids, then you're not going to modulate anything. It's kind of like plugging in your guitar and turning up the volume and the gain. Really hard, but then never hitting it straight. You know, just like...

23:27BubblemanSo... Hey, keep in mind, Tony, the people that are like saying, oh, I don't know about terpenes, I'm not really sure, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, almost exclusively, none of them have tried it.

23:40SpeakerYes.

23:41BubblemanSo, let's just put that up on there. Fairly important. It's a fairly important factor.

23:47SpeakerYeah, or they tried something that's another type of terpene product that's from CO2 or something else.

23:54BubblemanI saw that recently. The CO2 terpenes are like yellow.

23:58SpeakerYellow and orange. So, you know, that's what you got. Now I think you're going to see a lot of, hopefully a lot of education out there when people are looking at it like, okay, well, Tony's and Blue River's are clear. They look like water. They're not changing. You know, they're exposed to air for like five days open. Also, before they're packaged, there's not any like, there's not any crazy thing you have to do anymore to store them.

24:26SpeakerIf you were going to store them long term, use a refrigerator. But my favorite thing to do is, you know, literally dab a little bit in it every time. And that flavor is going to change a lot. So if you have a little vial and you're dipping, dabbing in it, I mean, it goes forever. Or, you know, just use a little spoon. I'm now including little droppers in there.

24:50SpeakerAll of our new stuff for the New Year's will have little custom little white droppers. But even that, like even a full drop on a gram is a lot. And I think when Space and the Bizarre Brothers and us hung out, they saw like what one drop did. And I was like, that's just, it's obsessive. You know, like.

25:09BubblemanIs that an Apple's pen?

25:11SpeakerThis is a Puff Coat.

25:15BubblemanOh, a puff cone. Nice. I have one of them somewhere.

25:17SpeakerCeramic element. Yes. And I actually spent a lot of time yesterday researching the right type of cartridge and pen for our project that you and I are working on. And I noticed now, if you look in these things, instead of having a coil or a wick... Everything's moving to ceramic.

25:46BubblemanYeah, the Atmos one is just a ceramic, like the whole thing when you look inside is all ceramic. You don't see any element. The element's underneath the ceramic.

25:57SpeakerYeah, I think that's key. You know, and then next is what kind of ceramic are you using? But this Puffco is really nice. I found one cartridge in the world that is a wickless ceramic element for the Bubbleman I would consider of a standard and it doesn't use a wick. So it's kind of like a, what it is is it's got a ceramic rod at the bottom that has a hole through it.

26:28SpeakerAnd what it does is it pulls the, it pulls your oil, your flower rosin or whatever you're going to have in the pen through that rod that's ceramic that has a hole in it at the bottom. And then that vaporizes and pushes it back down to the bottom. It's a really good design. I don't think you're going to see a lot of wicks in the future because Harvard came out with a couple studies.

26:49SpeakerI don't know if Mark saw this on the e-cigarette stuff. Basically saying that like the PG and the VG, they did a bunch of studies on it and they found what was causing the problems in most people was the actual wick, not even the PG as much.

27:08Dr Mark ScialdoneNo, it's just the thermal degradation products that are basically shouldn't be going into the lungs, yeah. Yeah. That same kind of, I guess it's the same kind of symptoms that they see with that so-called popcorn lung. We were talking about this, I think, last week on Hash Church.

27:27SpeakerYeah, that's how I started. I looked it up because I didn't know what it was. When he goes, popcorn lung, I was like, I don't know what you're talking about, popcorn lung.

27:33Dr Mark ScialdoneI hadn't heard it. I think it's a version of that thing, lipoid pneumonia or lipid pneumonia. Again, it's just getting high molecular weight stuff that's not meant to be going deep into the airways that just… Yeah, it's going to cause all kinds of problems and you get edema and all kinds of fluid build up around it and it's not a good thing and you could basically suffocate from it.

27:59Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, yeah, it's, no, it's not a good thing.

28:03SpeakerI have a question for you on that subject. Is everyone trying to get away from the cut in the pens and, you know, during Christmas I saw my little, my nephew, he's like 18 and he's got one of those, he's got, and this was, you know, a ceramic Thank you for joining us.

28:32Dr Mark ScialdoneExactly. I mean, I had to take it away from my 18-year-old. I mean, he came home from college like, hey, we all got one of these. I said, you don't got one of these anymore, and I took it out of his hand. I mean, yeah, those things are just, I shouldn't really comment too much on them, but I could just say that I don't think that anything like that is meant to be gone into your airways at that concentration.

28:59Dr Mark ScialdoneVegetable glycol, or vegetable-based glycerin, is basically a byproduct of processing of triglycerides. It's actually not a very good solvent for cannabinoids, and I'm not sure if it's actually a very good solvent For nicotine as well, although nicotine...

29:21SpeakerThey use it. That's what they use it for. They use a cut of PG and VG.

29:26Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, and the PG is what the nicotine... Yeah, so PG, let's talk about that. Propylene glycol. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that stuff, man, this is what they use to de-ice airplanes, okay?

29:40SpeakerI mean, it's... And fog machine juice.

29:42Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, it's the stuff that's used in radiator fluid, you know, it's used because it, you know, basically has good thermal properties, but I mean, it's not the kind of thing that, again, I guess if you're getting it in small quantities in like an edible product, like if you're eating a lot of things, kind of like the same issue, Tony, with the pesticide residue, some of these pesticides, especially like the azoles, Thank you so much for joining us.

30:32Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, like in your diet, or when you're ingesting all kinds of other things into your stomach, and you've got to remember your stomach is like a cauldron of two normal hydrochloric acids that just choose the hell out of most very fragile and sensitive molecules. And so if you're being exposed, again, to like trace amounts of pesticides through your diet, I mean, it's one thing. But when you smoke it, and especially when you're smoking it in concentrated form and You're heating it up.

31:02Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's just not known and none of those chemicals are registered for use in an end use where the stuff is going to be applied to something that's going to be heated Before consumed. It's all meant to be either sprayed in a foliar spray or like a pre-emptive, you know, pre-emergent spray. A lot of the agrochemicals these days are being packaged into the seed coatings themselves. And so seeds, especially row crops like corn and soy, are coated sometimes.

31:34Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd then as that, as the seed blooms, as the germ present spreads out and basically makes the plant, It releases a plume of the agrochemical in the soil that's then up taken into the plant systemically and then delivered systemically throughout the life of the plant in a way that they don't have to use foliar sprays which has a lot of unintended runoff and all other, just a higher use rate so they can get away with much lower use rates by putting it into the seed itself.

32:10Dr Mark ScialdoneBut, yeah, I mean, none of those chemicals are regulated for use on a product that's to be smoked. And especially a resinous product like cannabis, which is going to be basically a sponge to absorb anything that comes in contact. So any of these insecticides or fungicides or other kinds of agrochemical treatments are all going to stick within the oil that's going to be consumed and extracted.

32:37SpeakerWell, and the only... The industry that we actually have to compare to is the tobacco industry. So I guess the only thing we could pull data from is what do they go through, right?

32:48Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, again, tobacco is something that has naturally occurring insecticide, and nicotine is a very impotent insecticide, so it doesn't really need the insect treatments that you would see, and its cultivation practices I live in the Amish area of Pennsylvania, and so right down the road from here, there's a very large region of the Amish community that grows quite a bit of tobacco. And I can tell you that, yeah, their harvest and their practices are a lot like row crop.

33:20Dr Mark ScialdoneThey'll treat it like soybean or like corn and just plant them in rows, and you'll see them. They usually grow up and they're very, very bright, brilliant yellow and they stand out against the corn and they're usually harvested in early, early October and then hung in barns. But I tell you, all that tobacco stuff goes out the window because the chemistry of that plant is just completely different than cannabis.

33:49Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd because the chemistry is completely different, the compounds that you use to control pests and bugs would be different too.

33:57SpeakerSo as far as regulation though, I meant they're the only thing that we actually smoke in our society that's regulated.

34:03Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, and they spray, man, Tony, they spray all kinds of shit on tobacco, and again, it's like, it's a dirty industry. Not the model industry to model cannabis after.

34:15SpeakerYeah, I once read there's 115 other addictive chemicals in a cigarette besides the nicotine.

34:23Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I think they treat with bergamot. They treat with oil of bergamot. They treat with other things too, again, to enhance flavor and all kinds of stuff, I think.

34:32BubblemanWell, nothing's more important than the ability to raise the levels of nicotine, which is actually illegal for a tobacco company to do in the lab, but they do it on the field. By spraying Radium-226, which is a radioactive nucleotide that basically does nothing other than alter healthy DNA.

34:50Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. And I can tell you that like the shatter version of nicotine, so if you were to take tobacco and blast it, that shatter version, that level of purity of nicotine is actually toxic. You can die.

35:06BubblemanForget about you can die. That's how they kill racehorses. With a syringe of pure nicotine and that fucking horse is dead before the plunger gets to the bottom. That's how strong pure nicotine is. Forget about a human. It's a true story. How you doing, Todd?

35:24SpeakerMan, getting up early is harder. Every day I get older. I swear to God. No, I'm kidding. No, not really. I'm kidding. I woke up today thinking it was 8.06. It was 9.06. I was like, fuck.

35:34BubblemanHe's kind of like Rocky Balboa in the new Creed movie. He's all old, and he's like, oh, it's harder to get up these stairs each time.

35:45SpeakerOh, that's fucked up. Don't compare me to Rocky.

35:48BubblemanThere's some great lines in there. I only watched like 40 minutes of it, but at one point, Buddy's like, he's saying, oh, time is your greatest opponent. It takes down everyone.

35:59SpeakerNice. Thanks, buddy. Making me feel great this morning. Yeah. Let's rejoice in getting older. We're all dying closer. We've been dying since the day we were born. No, no, right. What did Bob Dylan say? He who is not busy being born is busy dying. Fucking right. So I was doing a good job dreaming today while I was half dead, so good times on that. Excellent, excellent. So we're not talking about weed again?

36:23SpeakerEvery day, every Sunday, pot, pot, pot. What the hell, guys? Well, I mean, we can talk about age, because I'm about to be 38, and I feel like I'm 68. Don't lie, Tony. You looked a little older for your age than I thought, actually. 38, wow. You know you're older. I went out last night with my brother and his girlfriend and all their friends, and, you know, it's just like...

36:54SpeakerOver here it's what, three hours ahead of what the hash church was and I barely made it at 12 o'clock. I'm like limping, I can't move. I was like, man, this is the first time I've gone out and had like four drinks in a year since the last year I was here. And drinking and puffing at the same time, that makes you feel old. That makes you feel really old.

37:16SpeakerThat's really hard taxing on the body, man, for sure. There's no question. Is your brother younger? He's 10 years older, but he definitely looks younger. Yeah.

37:29Bubbleman10 years older.

37:30SpeakerThe big bro. Yeah. Have you guys ever been to a 90-10 party?

37:36SpeakerI don't think so. I like Todd's look on his face. He's like, 90-10, what's that? We're like 90% of the ratio is female. Yes, playboy parties. I went to a party once. They had 1,185 guests and only 200 were men. Yeah, this was the kind of party last night.

37:54BubblemanYou've got to feel bad at a party like that if you find yourself sitting there and you end up chatting with a bunch of dudes. Yeah.

38:02SpeakerYeah, no, for sure. Honestly, I think that's why I met Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, actually. I'm not even shitting you guys. I had heard that he had gotten his doctor's note from the same doctor that, well, one of the doctors I had gotten mine from through Jack. And I was at the buffet, and I looked to my left, and I saw, I swear to God, like a suit pocket next to my head, and I looked up.

38:23SpeakerAnd I was like, holy shit, you know. I was like, I followed him right to the table because it's open seating and I was like, may I sit with you? And he's like, yeah, of course. And I was like, I think we have the same doctor. And he was like, really? How is that possible? And I was like, jack hair. And he was like, Oh. And then we started talking more.

38:43SpeakerAnd, you know, he's used it for headaches his whole life. And I actually asked him, I said, did you ever play, you know, did you ever smoke before you played? And he was so cool. He was eating dinner. He goes, did you ever see me play? And I said, yeah. He goes, then you saw me play high because I could never risk going on the court and getting a headache.

39:01SpeakerAnd I was like, holy shit. You know, and really that was his office. He, you know, he was doing it to insulate himself against not being able to play through the game. Pretty deep, man.

39:13BubblemanYeah, he's a big proponent or was back in the day of Bikram Yoga as well. I know Bikram Chudri gave him a couple more years on his career at the end of it when his knees were just shot.

39:24SpeakerFunny enough, dude, he lived on Stone Canyon just down the street when I got busted, and he had his own little story about me getting busted. Like, he had had dinner, and he said he rolled a joint, and he went to look outside because he's like, I'm old and paranoid. He goes, and I saw a cop go by, and we live on a dead end. He goes, so I stood.

39:41SpeakerHe goes, I looked back out. It goes, another cop and another cop. He goes, so I hid my joint. And then he goes, when the helicopters came over, he goes, I felt so bad for whoever was up the street. And then when I turned on the news, he goes, I almost cried. I was like, wow, dude, you know, because he was like, wow, they're up there for the weed.

39:59SpeakerNo, no. He was cool as shit, man. Talk about meeting a hero, you know, and just feeling like what a great guy. That's awesome. Yeah, he was fantastic. I wish he'd come out publicly because he has gotten pulled over with weed and he has made statements that he used it So people can look it up and read it. I'm not like pulling his panties down or anything, but I was a little disappointed after I met him that he wouldn't, not that after I met him, but after everything that he was still There's so much bigotry that we're dealing with.

40:31SpeakerAnd, you know, he was trying to do a lot of work with children and stuff post his NBA career. And he felt like if, you know, he came out pro pot that it would ruin his ability to do good things in the community. And that's so screwed, you know.

40:45BubblemanThere's that connection with children again. You know, it's always the children, the children, the children. It's like children need cannabinoids. You know, they have an endocannabinoid system the last time I checked.

40:55SpeakerMore than anything, I think the conversation is going to get to a point of vitamins and minerals where, you know, people are realizing that the 20th century was like an endocannabinoid deficient period and we were all violent and fucking crazy because of it. And, and, Once we start learning the connections that endocannabinoids have to our basic functions, our biomechanical functions, I believe what's going to really happen is we may someday see, just like we see vitamins and minerals enriched in our bread, we may see CBD or a specific cannabinoid that we know does specific things.

41:29SpeakerI don't think that's that far off, to be quite honest.

41:32BubblemanHey, welcome Horatio. That was very exciting seeing your Terp champagne this morning. I noticed that you posted that at around like 4 in the fucking morning. Do you sleep at all?

41:44HoratioNo, and all my posts are at that time. And of course, as soon as I post, I try to go to bed and then the messages just start. Someone's like, I'll take a bottle of 12. I'm like, there is no 12. What are you talking about? And they're like, yeah, I need that ASAP. And I'm like, oh, God.

42:01BubblemanYeah, that was a really cool, I don't know how you did the bottles and whatnot, but that looked pretty fucking cool. I don't know if you guys saw it, but Horatio posted his Terp Champagne this morning and he had the bottles and the labels made and it just looked really cool.

42:17HoratioSpent a lot of time on wedding blog decoration sites learning, I guess, another craft of bottle painting, but it was fun, you know, getting my bottles working at around midnight.

42:31BubblemanYes, does Horatio use SodaStream? Horatio, my country and the whole world need your champagne de turpine. I'm guessing he's French.

42:41Dr Mark ScialdoneThe boys at Mothership to blast some, you know, particular fan-blasted bottles.

42:51Bubbleman$25,000 bottles that you can sell and the guy will flip for $78,000.

42:56Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, man.

42:57HoratioWith no juice in it. With no juice in it. Just the bottle. Yeah.

43:01Dr Mark ScialdoneMove over, Dom Perignon.

43:04BubblemanDom Perignon never had a fancy bottle. What's the company that has the fancy hand-painted bottles? There is one. It's a French company. Gray Goose, right? No, no. This is champagne. I can't remember. I don't know why I can't remember, but it's like hand-painted bottles. They're pretty schnazzy.

43:25Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, you wouldn't throw out a mothership bottle, would you?

43:29BubblemanNot unless you were maybe brain damaged.

43:32Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, you have your glass blower boy make a rig out of it or something. Cut the top off and put a rig on the top or something.

43:45HoratioTo answer the question to people asking about the solar stream, no, those days are done. I'm now into kegging. So it's all about kegging and bottle guns. Right.

44:04SpeakerWhat happened? Why is it black?

44:06BubblemanOh, sorry about that. I'm just having conversations. I'm accidentally muting my friend. Now I'm going to show him in the broadcast. I don't think his camera's working. I did accidentally mute you, Chimera. I can unmute you.

44:19Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, Horatio, does it actually build up pressure such that it pops the cork like typical champagne would? I don't know how to do that yet.

44:30HoratioSo it doesn't like foam up? I'm not going to try. I've had so many explosions of foam that I'm not trying to do that effect because of the amount of explosions in my life.

44:43BubblemanOh, Brett Maverick just said, I would break my mothership bottle. Now for those of you that don't know and why that's funny is because he actually had a mothership break that he posted on Instagram a while ago. Hey, welcome, Chimera. What's up? Good to see you, buddy.

45:03ChimeraHow are you, man?

45:04BubblemanFuck, I'm doing good, man. Thank you for coming in and being a new face and spending time at Mass Church.

45:11ChimeraYeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

45:14BubblemanAbsolutely. There's been people asking about you in chat. K-Town Jr. and Taylor. Wow, that person's been, like, asking me to have you on here for a while. They're very excited to hear you talk today. What's up, K-Town? K-Town in the house. Yeah, we have like a chat that's opened in YouTube that you're probably not looking at, but there's like 600 people in there right now. And so I'll just, I'll read off little questions that they have every once in a while, but yeah, fucking A, dude.

45:43BubblemanWhat's up, Tony? Long time.

45:46ChimeraNice meeting the rest of you guys.

45:49BubblemanYes, I don't know if Horatio and Mark and Pod know who you are, but geez, I must have met you I mean, it must have been fucking 20 years ago.

45:58ChimeraYeah, it was like 98 or 99. You had the Char edition of the bags when you came into that shop.

46:06BubblemanYeah, then it would have been 99. Was that like the year that you guys had some crazy ice storm too?

46:11ChimeraYeah, it could have been.

46:13BubblemanI'm not really great with that kind of... Because my old man was living in Ottawa. That's why I was out there.

46:18ChimeraRight. And he was a big part of helping out in the ice storm.

46:21BubblemanBut yeah, that was... I thought you were down for the Jazz Fest. I thought it was... I was down for that as well. I'm a multitasker when I make visits.

46:29SpeakerSure.

46:30BubblemanI can't just go to Ottawa and visit my old man. I've got to hit Montreal first and, you know, go to the Montreal Jazz Festival.

46:36ChimeraYou have your Martin Madesky and Wood on, huh?

46:38BubblemanOh my God, yeah. The last time I went, they played with Charlie Hunter, who's an amazing... I don't know if anyone knows who Charlie Hunter is, but if you don't, Go check them out. He plays this crazy bass guitar thing where on the top fret, the top strings, I believe the top three strings, is a bass. And then the bottom, like five or six or whatever it is, is a guitar.

47:03BubblemanAnd he plays them both simultaneously, and it's the most fucking insane thing to watch.

47:10ChimeraThe first show you and I went to together was that Martin Modesky Woods Schofield show. Yeah. With Red.

47:18BubblemanYeah, that was amazing too. I've seen MMW with a lot of great people. Schofield, probably the best. I mean, they ended up doing the album with him as well. So, oh man, I miss those guys. They were super real dudes that were easy to hang out with and enjoy and puff with. And then the music obviously was just top notch. Good stuff. Yeah, man. So what is Chimera doing these days?

47:47BubblemanYou're kind of like the snuffleupagus.

47:51ChimeraYeah, I am the snuffleupagus. I'm kind of doing the dual life thing. I'm not really doing much with the seeds actually right now. I'm working for a research company.

48:00BubblemanOkay.

48:02ChimeraDoing a lot of terp and genetic and inheritance, all that kind of stuff, all that kind of work.

48:09BubblemanAh, beautiful. Going deeper.

48:11ChimeraGoing deeper, ever harder and deeper.

48:13BubblemanWell, you know, it made me happy the other day to hear Rob mention your name. I was like, oh. Rob just met with him. All right. Something's going on.

48:24ChimeraYeah, well, I was down at the Emerald Cup, so I was on a panel down there with Rob and that kind of shit.

48:31BubblemanIt was good. How was that panel? What did you guys talk about?

48:35ChimeraWell, there was a couple. There was the Breeders panel. It was a little more undercover, though, and then there was the Genetics panel. So I was pretty... It was Rob, of course, and Michael Backus, and the three of the four top cannabis genome sequencing folks. So it was pretty in-depth. John Page from UBC and Anandia Labs, and Mowgli Holmes from Phylos Bioscience is doing the Open Cannabis Project and the Cannabis Evolution Project.

49:08ChimeraYeah. Kevin McKernan from Medicinal Genomics. Thank you for watching.

49:37ChimeraI thought it would work out, but man, I'm not surprised that it didn't. I messaged him this morning, too, and said, dude, what the fuck?

49:43BubblemanIt's really chill that way. When it works out, it will.

49:48ChimeraHe's not like you. He has no kids. Sunday mornings are probably a napping time, I would say, for him.

49:58BubblemanTodd's laughing.

49:59Dr Mark ScialdoneThey probably don't exist.

50:01SpeakerMark has dragged my Sundays into multimedia fucking nightmarish. I like it, though. I love how it starts. The feedback I get is great, but damn you, Mark. I used to sleep till noon, man. I used to sleep till noon. What you doing to me, man? This is my only day of rest. Hold on, Tony. Could you say that a little less enthusiastically? One more time. If possible.

50:29ChimeraIf possible.

50:30SpeakerIf possible. I should be sleeping. This is my only day of rest. Hey, you know what? We might have Rob on a little later, too. He's over here. He's down on the other side of the house right now, so probably could grab him on. The way I look at it, though, is... A little genetic panel. Yeah, the way I look at it, though, is like, you know, none of us are going to a physical church.

50:54SpeakerWe're all sleeping in. And now we have a church of hashish and a church of learning. And I don't regret waking up every day and participating and learning with everybody. So it's definitely worth the sacrifice.

51:09BubblemanYou know what? Someone just said something that made a lot of sense in chat there. And it's like they said, Tony needs Sleestack. And I'm like, we all need Sleestack in the morning. A little Sleestack rip or some Ghost Train haze or one of those like real like… I just brought some Sleestack seedings. Nice. That's what I'm talking about. Sleestack Skunk crossed?

51:31SpeakerI will tell you, I think it's one of my favorite resin strains. Maybe not the flower itself, but as far as the resin, once I actually got the real deal, it's quite impressive. Oh, it's phenomenal, dude.

51:44BubblemanThe year that they came out with Sleestack, and then the next year when Sam crossed it with his Skunk, it was like, it was psychotic, smoking grams of that shit. 99% heads. Through Sid's, you know, 100-year-old Afghani hubbly-bubbly at the Legends of Hash. And literally when I hit that, that might be the single greatest hit I ever took, really. Like, grams. Sam was pouring in like a gram or two at a time on top of what was probably about 8 grams of Afghani hash folded into like a screen with holes in it and just torched till it was like a coal.

52:22BubblemanIt was unbelievable. Good stuff. Anyway, I didn't mean to pause out the group there.

52:30ChimeraYou're reminiscing over past hits. It's inevitable, Mark.

52:34BubblemanPast hits? I was reminiscing over past hits.

52:40SpeakerYou know how every once in a while I would pull off confessions? We should see everyone's confession of their one most historical bowl or hit or resin they've ever had. Is there one that sticks out? Just like you described with everyone on the panel, do you have one that you just like, man, I remember this.

52:59BubblemanThen I have to finish mine because the real true experience was A, 50 of the headiest people that were at the Cannabis Cup that year were in the building. That was the year we brought the TV and I don't know if it was Sid or who it was but they brought these videos from the 70s, early 70s, like 1970s.

53:19BubblemanAnd it was in Afghanistan. I'm not sure if it was even the same pipe we were hitting. But it was this old crazy fucking like high eight video that we were watching people stand in line and go, you know, pray to the hubbly bubbly and then hit it and blow these huge clouds out from 1970 while in 2009 or 10 or I can't remember what year it was.

53:42BubblemanWe were in Amsterdam hitting these same pipes with the new level of hash. Watching these videos, that to me was, that was pretty magical.

53:53ChimeraLast year I think I was at the cup with you was the last year that you didn't have pillows at your booth. People were dropping like flies.

54:04BubblemanThat was crazy back then how many people were falling. That was pretty funny times. That was the year I knocked out old Ed.

54:12SpeakerThey had to put a disclaimer out with High Times and all events there. That was 96.

54:20BubblemanIt was brutal. That was 96. I've never felt so bad in all my life, and I don't like knocking people out at all. But a lot of people used to get knocked out back in the early days. Like, it was insane.

54:33ChimeraYeah, I just remember you saying, would you like to try some hash?

54:37SpeakerSo I was at the PAX party house leaning over getting, I was waiting in line actually to get a hit off Eagle Bill's vaporizer. He knocked lots of people out. There was a guy in front of me who is standing there with his friends and friends would just get hit and he was like the last of them to get a hit. And he got a hit and he stood up and I was waiting for him to move out of the way and he just fell over.

55:00SpeakerAnd before I could even help him up, his friends were on the ground and Eagle Bill looked at me and he was like, And then he was like, another satisfied customer, next! Exactly, he always had an awesome thing to say. I literally leaned over him to get a barter while he was on the ground and his friends were helping him up.

55:20BubblemanThe year that Martin from Ruhr flew the glassblower Mike Froh to Germany and they blew glass together, it was the first time Martin blew with color, it was his first collaborations. He did a five series of pipes. And that pipe I ended up getting, number one of five, the Mike Froh Martin CoLab, and I had it at my booth, and I was blazing people down. I have the picture.

55:43BubblemanI should almost open it up because it's fucking hilarious. The guy is standing there, basically takes a rip out of the Froh, and then like passes out, and as he's passing out, Mike Froh is walking by and catches the pipe, keeping it from smashing, and then picks up the fucking guy. And I'm telling you, man, it was funny. I'm going to see if I can find the picture while someone tells their next story of their memorable hit, because it's worth it.

56:18SpeakerYeah, let's hear this. Hash Church Confessions, most memorable hits. And you can pick like three if you want, if it's really hard, because I'm sure you've got a lot of them. Let's hear it from you, Mark.

56:29Dr Mark ScialdoneCome on, Mark. I think the one that I remember the most, to tell you the truth, was actually it was induced by a dry spell. This was in the summer, early 90s. We were growing in Fort Collins, and we were growing, I think, cutting from supposedly Sam's skunk number one. So we had a couple little plants going, and I remember, I mean, it was like the magic of that first hit that you take from the weed that you grew for the first time and you did everything the right way.

57:12Dr Mark ScialdoneThat was like a hit that I will never, ever be able to live again because it only happens one time in your life. It's like you grew this plant and now you're experiencing it After, again, a dry spell, so it basically knocked my tolerance down, so it was something I'll never, ever forget. It was a great one. Skunk number one, 1992, probably like August or something like that.

57:41BubblemanAwesome. I just showed that picture of Mike Froh and the dude who passed out, had to do it. Wow, that's classic. So many fun pass outs at the Cannabis Cup. I could literally remember... So many, it's not even funny. That PAX party house used to get hot too, so you've got people that have not slept, they are not hydrated, they are wicked fucking hot, and they're puffing like maybe more than they should be puffing in those particular conditions.

58:13SpeakerTodd, what's your most memorable, what's your confession? Oh, you know, that's rough. I mean, honestly, that one with Eagle Bill always stands out. The kid that passed out in front of me, I felt bad. But he was happy when he got up, I won't lie. He had a big smile on his face. You know, there was another time when old Ed passed out on his birthday in 1996.

58:34SpeakerHe turned 80 and everybody brought him everything, depositronics as like gifts to their old mentor. You know, a guy from Morocco came up, gave him a chunk of hash and he said, you know, Ed had taught him how to make hash. Like, in the 70s, and the guy turned his whole life around and just spent half his time in Morocco making ash and half of it selling it in Europe.

58:54SpeakerAnd it was amazing to see everybody come and give reverence. Sam gave Eld Head a 35mm film vial full of just resin heads. I mean, you put them under a microscope and you look, there was not any contaminants. There was nothing. There was just resin heads. And when you pour it in your hand, you could just smush the resin heads It would literally turn to a goo, and then it would turn literally rock hard.

59:19SpeakerLike if you tapped it on something, it would be hard. If you tried to break it with your fingernail, your fucking fingernail would break. But if you put it in your bowl, it would just melt to nothing. And I loved that stuff. I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved. That's the reason I went out and got all my sieve separators. And when I came home, I got all the WS Tyler and the Rototap.

59:39SpeakerAll that was just to recreate that amazing dry sieve. Not very easy to recreate though at the time. It depends on the strain. If you have one or two strains and you're trying to make cash, you may feel like, oh, I suck at this. At the time, I had 50 different varieties going. When you're pulling down all these different types of cannabis, they grow trichromes differently. They release trichromes differently.

1:00:05SpeakerHonestly, some strains, super easy. Some strains super hard. So honestly, it depends on the plant material that I started with. But a rototap makes it a lot easier. I was also stacking screens between 60 and 150 microns with the 150 with the pod on top and letting it just sit there and vibrate through. And then I would have harvests of different sized resin heads in the WS Tyler screens.

1:00:31SpeakerIt was awesome. It's still my favorite.

1:00:33BubblemanI've never seen 99% come out of a rototap.

1:00:39BubblemanThat's not how Sam did it all those years, that's for sure.

1:00:43SpeakerThey start their cleanup on mechanical sieve separators, and then they clean up the remainder that they're going to use. It's the creme de la creme.

1:00:50BubblemanIt could be used as a start, but it's definitely not. And I will agree that the strain is so important. Some people might not even be that great at making hash, but have the most amazing strain that You know, just even at 90% heads, which is doable, you can get 90% heads with some of these techniques, jet sieves and whatnot. They're very expensive machines though, compared to like a farmer's grade single screen and then using something like the DVD carding static trick or something.

1:01:19SpeakerThat wasn't around so much, you know, back when I was doing this. No. 97. 97. They're playing with that stuff, so no one had come up with that yet. And actually, it was really effective. I mean, it depends on what size screens you have. And what I noticed was different size harvests of different size resin glands with different plants. I started looking at my plants on a micro level or a macro level because You know, up until that point, I wasn't really able to measure resin glands off of my harvests or see that I had a lot of one and not a lot of another.

1:01:51SpeakerIt's when I just started looking at different plants. You know, Tony, I asked Rob about resin glands outdoors or indoors. What are bigger? He said outdoors. They're smaller most of the time, technically. Yeah, because I was like, because my thought when you said it was, is he saying that a plant cannot express itself fully under lights? And that's what I disagreed with. And then when I went and asked Rob, he said, no, usually the plant, the resin glands on outdoor plants are smaller than they'd be if the plants were grown indoors or in a greenhouse.

1:02:19SpeakerSo, just for clarity, because, you know, I always try to get clarity. Well, yeah, my point on that conversation, which we never got to... Was when I'm pulling terpenes off of indoor versus outdoor plants, for whatever it's worth, I'm seeing more volume in outdoor sun-grown resin than I am from indoor from the same stream. Definitely. So that means the volume of heads or the terpene content in the heads has to be more.

1:02:48SpeakerSo that was where I was getting my theory from. Might be strain specific, you know, like I was saying when I was doing all the stuff at the castle, you know, and I had 50 varieties going, some things would express themselves totally different than other plants, and it wasn't so much being able to generalize cannabis will do X, it's like this variety of cannabis will do this, this variety will do this, if that makes more sense to me at least.

1:03:11SpeakerWell, that I agree 100%.

1:03:15Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, and the great thing about having the genome project that they're talking about putting in place is that when you look at these, any stresses that the plant undergoes during its lifetime, you can look at to see at the genetic level at which gene is responsible for Thank you for joining us.

1:03:55Dr Mark ScialdoneThe individual enzymes are expressed in a different way as a function of that stress. And those things are always going to result in very different makeups and in different strains that we'll be able to understand once we have the gene completely mapped out.

1:04:13ChimeraYeah, we are a long, long, long way from there with the genomics still at this point in time. They're really doing basic sequencing. I mean, it's advanced modern techniques, but it's not high-depth, and it's definitely not tied to even chemotypes, let alone, like, any traits. Most of the companies that are doing it right now are specifically genetics companies. They don't have the ability to grow plants and start tying correlations from gene data to phenotype data or chemotype data.

1:04:44ChimeraAnd so, theoretically, all that's possible, but we're not there yet.

1:04:50Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I mean, it's possible in every other plant other than cannabis, and so I guess what I'm doing is seeing that hole and trying to say, hey, look what's on the other side, you know, trying to lead everyone through that. And absolutely, I totally agree, it's not there. But in rice, that's known, and in corn, that's known.

1:05:12ChimeraAll major crops are there, but I mean, you've got to remember, too, those things haven't been We're severely restricted by the government and research for a hundred years, so when someone finally gets off their ass and opens it up a little bit, allows researchers to start touching, maybe even growing the plant, then they're going to get somewhere. Phylloses, you know, as different states are changing, and I'm not going to talk about their private information, but, you know, these states that have legalization now have these genomics companies have Thank you for joining us.

1:06:11ChimeraAmplify many, many, many, many copies of very small segments of DNA, maybe 100 bases long. And then they have computers that essentially read them and they figure out the overlapping sequences by digital means. The sequences are digital, so they throw out data files and you can have computers just sort through the data and start putting together pieces of the same. But what happens in cannabis, there's a lot of, it's a really complex species and There's all these gene duplications, so you have one gene at one point in time, and it splits and becomes two genes on the chromosome that are very close together, and they have a lot of the same sequence, and the DNA readers, the DNA compilers have a hard time with those.

1:06:59SpeakerWould having the terpene data of the strain with the leaf and being able to do that indoor, outdoor... How in this process do you think terpenes aren't really prevalent in what is going on with genome mapping?

1:07:15ChimeraSo the terps are not quite there. John Page, he did some work in Germany a bunch of years ago. I think it was for his postdoc or his PhD. And they actually found the first two Terpene synthase is in cannabis. He found pinene, alpha-pinene synthase, and limonene synthase. Limonene synthase, depending on how you say it. And I think he's currently undertaking some pretty interesting work. I think that's going to be one of the first stories to be told with the genome data that we have.

1:07:47ChimeraThe cannabinoid story is partly told, but it's very, very, very complex. And It'll come soon enough. On the leaf, Tony, you're talking, leaves aren't really good for expression. You've got to remember, when you're doing different tissues, you're talking about expression, okay? So what you want to have is expression data. It's the genes that are turned on, because every cell has the complete genome sequence of the whole plant, right?

1:08:16ChimeraLike, theoretically, you could take any cell in the plant and figure out the whole genome. It's like the holographic universe. Yeah, it's all the potential that exists, right? But, like, what's actually there is a different question, so... Like, for example, when they were trying to figure out what the putative genes involved in the cannabinoid synthase pathway, they essentially took bubble bags, they screened a bunch of resin, and then they extracted the DNA from the resin.

1:08:47ChimeraAnd then they sequenced that, and you can figure out... Because, you know, at that point in time, you're only looking at the genes that are on in the... They look at mRNA. So at that point in time, you're looking at the genes that are expressed in the resin gland.

1:09:00Dr Mark ScialdoneSo are those genes known?

1:09:06Archive SeedsFor which?

1:09:07Dr Mark ScialdoneThe cannabinoid synthase?

1:09:11Archive SeedsAbsolutely.

1:09:13Dr Mark ScialdoneIf those genes are known, this is what I was sort of referring to before, which is that if you look at any different, which actually plays into what Tony is talking about, which is looking at a trait or an output on the plant, if those sequences are known, or I'm sorry, if those genes are known, can't those genes be looked at in an induced response process? This is an induced response panel where you're looking at whether or not those genes are actually up-regulated or down-regulated as a function of some type of environmental insult or some type of stress to the plant.

1:09:48ChimeraThey've actually even done that already with the cannabinoid synthases. You understand a little bit how genes work. They're activated, they're transcribed, they're turned into mRNA, and those mRNAs become proteins. So if you measure the mRNA, you're only measuring the genes that are turned on, and like you were saying, you can measure the levels that they're turned on in some cases.

1:10:09SpeakerRight.

1:10:09ChimeraA little bit of work with that. There's a group out of Holland that used some bedrican varieties that had CBD and different levels of cannabs, and they realized that also a GW guy, H.N. DeMeyer, who's an excellent, excellent, very talented breeder and researcher, he They also did a little bit of work with this where they sequenced specific cannabinoid synthase genes and monitored their expression. And expression doesn't, so you have the gene and then you have expression and then you have the enzyme.

1:10:41ChimeraAnd the enzyme then leads to a specific cannabinoid level, right? So you can have, the gene is always static. It's always there in a constant amount. But expression can be turned on or off. Right, your next step is your protein, and we don't necessarily know if there's any, like it's probably not, I think that's wrong. But we don't really know how that level of expression ties into the total level of cannabs in the plant, or terps, right?

1:11:09ChimeraBecause it's not just about the synthase gene, it's about the precursors. A lot of cannabs and terps, they share precursors.

1:11:19Dr Mark ScialdoneSo upregulation of that enzyme doesn't necessarily result in like, you couldn't say increase CBD in a strain that's typically giving more THC by somehow upregulating the expression of that because it's the bifurcation in the pathway, right? So it starts with...

1:11:42ChimeraI'll send you a paper, Mark, if we get contact information from Mark, but it essentially says... The mRNA levels, the expression levels, weren't tied to the end phenotype. So it wasn't tied to high or low THC necessarily.

1:11:57Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. So doesn't that indirectly implicates the answer to Tony's question, which is that it doesn't necessarily impact the level of phytochemical in the trichome?

1:12:11ChimeraNo. No, it doesn't. Because there's a whole bunch of other factors involved, right? You know how these biological pathways work. It's There's all this pleiotropy. You change one gene way upstream of any pathway, and you're changing everything then that comes downstream of it, or at least the product.

1:12:31SpeakerWouldn't you want the pre-hormone and post-hormonal stages of the leaves, though, as data, like collecting the big ones, the close ones, the ones right next to the flowers in pre, post? Yeah.

1:12:46ChimeraYeah, you're just saying that, you tell me that you know something about, you know, expression. I mean, we can all see that in the plant. When you look at, you know, when you look at your cola, you've got your flowers on top and the subtending leaflet coming out, and as you move farther away from the plant, you have less resin. Right, so that's some, that's not a mistake, that's a difference in genetic signal that's going on at that point in time in the leaf.

1:13:11ChimeraAnd I don't know, you've probably noticed also that You know, on some varieties like cookies, for example, you get these final subtending leaflets that aren't serrated, they're round, okay? And a lot of times they're round and they curve, like they fold, they kind of taco up, right? And if you think about what a leaf, like what a flower is, a flower is by definition a leaf It's like a leaf that's changed for a sexual reproductive function, okay?

1:13:40ChimeraSo if you look at that cup's leaf, it's almost a bract, right? So it's like that leaf part is still getting a little bit of a genetic signal that's telling it to flower in it, and those leaves are actually kind of, they're highly, highly resinous, right? And also on one side of the leaf more than the other, and that's really characteristic of a calyx or a bract, right?

1:14:04ChimeraSo, you should check out John Page's first publication, because they did that. They sequenced the purple cush, a variety from Vancouver, British Columbia, Vancouver, and then they also sequenced finola, but they actually did leaves, stalks, or sorry, leaves, flowers, and roots. And they looked at the different genes that are turned on, right?

1:14:27BubblemanYou say finola?

1:14:29ChimeraI'm sorry?

1:14:30BubblemanYou say finola? Yeah.

1:14:32ChimeraYeah, because John Page is in Canada, so he has access to, you know. That's the hemp company, right? Yeah.

1:14:40BubblemanFanola is a Jace Calloway strain, I think, that Skunk Man Sam helped him breed. I think you're wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

1:14:47ChimeraIt's originally actually two land races from the Vavilov Institute. Okay, there you go. Here's a little piece of trivia for you, Bubble Man. Thin is 314, right? That's the catalog number. The two varieties that Sam got from Vavilov were 313 and 315. So when he crossed them together, he gave it, he called it 314. And Jace took those seeds off to Finland, so there's the finola for you.

1:15:16BubblemanWe grew mostly the Ukrainian seed, the Zolotinosha 11, 13, 15. Yeah. Did you do USO 31, Mark?

1:15:31ChimeraNo. That's a really popular one in Canada now, actually worldwide, because it's got a mutated CBD allele. So what happens is it ends up backing up a lot of CBG.

1:15:46BubblemanInteresting.

1:15:47ChimeraAnd it also has an allele for a knockout that actually shuts off the cannabinoids, so for chemotype 5 plants.

1:15:55BubblemanHmm. And what, yeah, no, they might very well, my partners may be using that now. I just, my old partners, I left a long time ago from that scene, so.

1:16:08ChimeraYeah, the wonderful world of hemp. Here's a weird fact that the genomics guys told me at the cup. They're saying that the hemp varieties are much less genetically diverse than the drug varieties.

1:16:24ChimeraReally? Yeah, which is kind of weird.

1:16:27SpeakerI got a good guy to talk about that. But you know what? I'm making photos. Here.

1:16:35BubblemanOh, I thought he was denied. I like the shirt.

1:16:40Etienne FontanMorning, Rob.

1:16:46SpeakerSay that again. The hemp diversity wasn't as great as the cannabis marijuana diversity. I overheard that. Have you ever grown hemp, Rob? Ever grown hemp? You've seen hemp, right? If you've seen textiles, you'd love the textiles. You really would. You'd go crazy. Really? Yeah. Yeah, that's what all these studies have shown, actually. Starting with Hillig's work with the alzheims and terpenes, and yeah, it obviously seems to be the hemp gene pool, the European hemp gene pool, not all hemp.

1:17:23SpeakerBut European hemp gene pool, narrow leaf temp varieties, they seem to be quite narrow. Even when you look at escaped and wild, possibly wild ones, it's a smaller area. Maybe the varieties spread faster. The early founding gene pools spread faster across Europe. Western and Eastern Europe's pretty geographically homogenous compared to Asia at least, so.

1:17:49ChimeraDidn't you say too that a lot of the hemp varieties had very, like they had founder events with just a couple of plants made?

1:17:57SpeakerYeah, that's been more in the modern breeding of them. Fibramone was used as the monoecious parent. A lot of the breeding that was done in Europe since the 1970s and right up until today is done with monoecious breeding so they can inbreed lines to lower the THC content. Because they're dreadfully afraid of THC. So, yeah, they have to keep it below 0.2% now, and that's the easiest way to do it is to inbreed.

1:18:27SpeakerSo, Fibromone was the one, and it basically has gone through all German and French and other varieties, and anything monoecious pretty much, except for a couple of Hungarian ones that had Fibromone in it.

1:18:41ChimeraSo is there, obviously, I'm trying to say, is there a lesson there for... Uh, drug cannabis breeders? Of course.

1:18:48SpeakerIt was the male parent. It's a monoecious plant, okay, but they use it for the male parent, the pollen parent. And yeah, the analogy today is seed companies that run with just one or two males to pollinate all their females, which they call different varieties based on the name of the female, but who's your daddy? That's what it's really down to.

1:19:09ChimeraWell, it's also who's your mommy. I mean, In many districts, you know, there's a very few plants that are the progenitors for everything. I mean, how many companies have an OG Kush, right? Right. When we do these things and everybody starts using the same plants, there's a cost because that's called a founder effect, right? So you get all the good genes from that plant, but you also get all the bad genes from that plant.

1:19:35ChimeraAnd like you were saying on the panel, when everybody starts growing clones and not planting seeds anymore, we lose all that diversity.

1:19:46SpeakerI visited a few cutting operations on this last trip and Yeah, they try to have a lot of diversity, but you can see that the market drives it already. People come in and order what they want for the next year, and if your garden center doesn't have what you want, you go to a different garden center. Exactly. Can I ask you this, though? And when we talk about diversity, and when I got to Amsterdam, and I noticed plants that were over 10 weeks, you know, NL5A's was the range when I got there in 94, 95, and that was at the edge.

1:20:16SpeakerWe've got a lot of different, if you would. But how genetically different can these be when they all fucking flower in the same 8, 9, 10 week at most period? I mean, wouldn't different diversity be weeks to flowering, plants to flower 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 now? Well, that's one trait that we've selected against, largely. I mean, plants that take twice as long to mature earn half as much.

1:20:43ChimeraFor me, the point comes back again. It's market-driven. In that case, the market is the grower. Grower doesn't want a 16-week variety. Grower wants an 8-week variety.

1:20:56SpeakerWell, you know, though, I want to say this, you know, up to a point where we were all clandestine growers and that, you know, if we could do, sorry about that, if we could do six in a row, let me kill that, it's Kenny, if we could do six in a row, then it's a little different than if we could do, you know, three. But now that we're not afraid to set up perpetual flowering systems and we could put, you know, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:21:36SpeakerAre now becoming available. And it was just because people didn't want to wait as long. They didn't want to learn how to deal with fertilizers past organic decomposition. It was more tricky to grow 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 weeks. And people weren't there for that. They were trying to make money. And now that it's changing and they want a competitive advantage in the market, I think we may start seeing these other colors.

1:22:01ChimeraWhat do you guys think of that? I agree. I mean, it's going to happen. But check this out. In Canada, you know, we have this medical marijuana system that was patient-driven, patient-focused, but patient production, and now we've gone to a commercial system, okay? One of the government's reasoning, which they're obviously full of shit, but one of the government's reasoning was that it would increase diversity in the marketplace.

1:22:23ChimeraThe marketplace would essentially allow for a greater variation for patients. And I just read an article the other day, Tweet has gone down to four production volumes from the 30 or whatever they had because they figured out that it's, you know, they probably figured out it's not so easy to grow some plants compared to others. Some just produce more, they have less problems with mold and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

1:22:43ChimeraSo they've gone down to their few, you know, beefsteak type varieties, I'm assuming. And, yeah. We've got to be careful as we move forward, I think, because we're going to repeat a lot of these same problems from the past.

1:23:00SpeakerYeah, we're relying on some incredible things that have happened relatively recently. One's the combining of the Afghan gene pool with all the stuff that was here before it, all the other drug varieties, the narrow leaf drug varieties descended from India originally. That fusion of those two previously isolated gene pools has given this incredible hybrid vigor that we're still riding on because the diversity of, especially the narrow leaf drug gene pool, is huge.

1:23:28SpeakerThe Afghan diversity, I think we're going to find out, is considerably smaller. But between the two of them, It's just amazing what's happened. It's been shown in the cannabinoid levels, the terpene levels, and just the number of glands that modern varieties produce. Bob, was cannabis in the 50s and 60s, the stuff coming from Vietnam and Laos and Jamaica and Michoacan, Acapulco, all that stuff was really, didn't have the Afghani.

1:23:57SpeakerNone of it. So was cannabis a different vibe in the 60s? And, you know, it wasn't the potency per se, but the way the cannabinoids made up. I mean, was it because I smoke some of the stuff that's tropical and I get motivated and, you know, but the Afghan stuff does kind of, you know, make me want to go sit in a hot tub. So was there a change in the energy of cannabis in the 70s when Afghan was introduced into all these tropical varieties?

1:24:23SpeakerAbsolutely. I mean, it improved the economic traits of the sensimia, but in some ways it also brought us bad ones. Couch lock. Well, couch lock and mold susceptibility.

1:24:38ChimeraThey had a cover back then that said ban the butt, didn't they? It was the ban the butt issue. Yeah, yeah. Somewhere along the way. My question is, I have a theory that... Those plants were probably the plants that injected myrcene into everything. I would suspect that all the varieties, like the Colombians, the Mexicans, all that kind of stuff was likely limonene dominant, but it was probably not myrcene dominant.

1:25:06ChimeraFor those of you that haven't done the terpene challenge with Mr. Skunk Man, where you essentially smoke a bunch of ITAP with terps in it, that myrcene and limonene are two different Two terps that really alter the effects of THC or they enhance the effects of THC. And myrcene kind of brings you down. So I'm assuming that, well, a theory is that the Afghan might be the injector of all that myrcene in the plant because a lot of, if you start pumping up myrcene in the plant, you actually increase your overall terps.

1:25:42ChimeraLike that's one way that you can increase overall terps. I've seen Terpene profiles where, for example, limonene and beta-caryophyllene and pinene, and they all stay the same, but myrcene either comes in doses, either high, medium, or low. And when you take out the myrcene, you vary the total oil content of the plant. Right? And so I think that what was happening is these hash makers who were selecting, you know, on a population basis because there was all this open pollination, and then they'd select the few good plants for next year's planting that were the most resinous, and that's probably what led to the high myrcene.

1:26:23ChimeraThey were naturally just by, you know, that's what we do with selection. We start selecting traits. When we're looking for something like high resin, you just pump up the resin and you don't necessarily increase the overall terp levels. You might do it by increasing only some terp levels.

1:26:41SpeakerWell, like certain terps are insect repellents, you know.

1:26:45ChimeraExactly. But this essentially comes back to that whole thing with the land-based varieties that we were especially talking about. It would be really nice to be able to have some of these things they're collecting for the Phyllos open source project, the old ancient seeds, and actually do grow them and see what kind of variances in the gene pools. That's one thing that I kind of, I love Hilligsburg, but one thing that disappointed me about it is they only had a few plants from each variety, and On that, they were making these chemotoxic, you know, generalizations.

1:27:19ChimeraAnd I think, really, if you looked at like 100 or 500, that you'd probably see all the variation that you see, well, not all the variation with the isozymes, but at least in the terps, you'd see that terp Like hidden terps in populations or hidden classes of terpians in populations coming out. And I think, my personal belief is that's what comes from the environment. The environment or the grower selection pulls out the traits that they want to see, like Tony was saying, for insect propellant.

1:27:50ChimeraYou know, maybe a specific terp is Thank you for joining us today.

1:28:20ChimeraThis is one of the things about out-crossing species like humans or cannabis. You have to have sex with a different individual so that you can propagate, so you can have progeny. What happens is all the bad traits or the different traits that are hidden in the genome, they're recessive, they just get carried around. Like luggage, right? Even though they might not, they're only rarely, rarely expressed, okay?

1:28:48ChimeraBecause you rarely get two of these very rare alleles. When they do, you get a new phenotype that can be selected on by the environment, right? And so if you had a population that was growing in any environment and one type of bug comes by and eats all the crop except for three plants because they had a terpene combination that the bugs didn't like the taste of, Then those three plants leave their genetic contribution to the next generation.

1:29:16ChimeraAnd then that really changes the balance of those genes in the population. But that's one of the things about cannabis is it keeps these genetic messages from the past hanging around until they can be brought out. And the way that you do bring them out is through selfing.

1:29:36ChimeraAnd then we get into this whole diversity topic that we were talking about earlier. So, you know, when you're breeding, it's a balance of the two. You have to select and inbreed, but remember that the natural state of cannabis is outcrossing. So you want to inbreed and stabilize in order to outcross and reestablish that variation.

1:30:02SpeakerHold on, let me... And did you just do it, Mark? Yeah, you did. My question was this, is that, you know, when I met, when I first went over there, there was like Simon from Serious Seeds. He was taking a 16-week female and crossing it with an 8-week male. They were very different genetics, you know, and getting real good hybrid vigor. Are we losing any of that hybrid vigor because the males and females we're mixing together are closer in genetic composition than, say, like NL5 by Hays or Cali Mist?

1:30:29SpeakerEither of you guys, I'd love to hear what you have to say. Well, a lot of these unique The combinations can still pop up, like Khmer is saying, but generally the genes lose frequency. They don't disappear entirely, but they become harder and harder to pair up again to get expression or whatever that trait is. It's not that they're gone forever, but that's not something we can rely on because it becomes statistically improbable that you're ever going to be able to break some of these together again.

1:31:03SpeakerThat's just two traits or two alleles. It's not really there. It's just hard to find. Yeah, very hard to find. Selfie, of course, allows you to do what cannabis doesn't do naturally, which is inbreed. Then, of course, you've inbred lots of other traits along with it, and then you have another slew of problems. I want people to realize that the diversity we're seeing in these projects now is still going to be a microcosm of what the cannabis genus diversity is.

1:31:40SpeakerAll these projects, Phyllis and Nolan Ryan's lab stuff that was just published, Everything is seen-see-me-er. Everything is a hybrid between narrow-leaf drug and broad-leaf drug types, in varying proportions, as indicated by the names, largely, and things like this, like we discussed last week. But that diversity is only two of the four major gene pools, if you want to look at our hypothesis that we're going to challenge here.

1:32:15SpeakerYou look at these projects, they won. Will and Ryan's research had one Chinese plant variety. That's one representative of the broadleaf hemp gene pool, which is immense. All of Eastern Asia.

1:32:28ChimeraWas it one plant? When you say one plant variety, was it an individual plant?

1:32:33SpeakerIt was just an individual from one variety of Chinese landrace.

1:32:37ChimeraAnd this is the same thing.

1:32:39SpeakerIt'll improve, but you can't say that there's no diversity when you don't look at a bunch of diverse things.

1:32:43ChimeraWell, this is what I said to both Mowgli and John and Kevin, or each of them, was that we're looking at individuals all over. Sure, we're looking at all over the United States. We're collecting samples in Boston. We're collecting samples in Vancouver and Washington and California. But you're still looking at single clones from all these families, and nobody's even looked at a family. Like, why don't we look at a family, right?

1:33:07ChimeraLet's look at one plant and measure the variation in that variety. And then we have a scale, you know? So Madhavi and I were talking about maybe tracking that project. But, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's another thing. Guys, all you guys, you're leaders in the industry. You're killing me using the word strains. You've got to stop saying strains. Strains is platically incorrect. It's not proper. We don't use strains for plants.

1:33:37ChimeraWe use strains for bacteria. So you're talking like E. coli, you know, HO157 or whatever it is. That's a strain. It's a specific strain. Clonal propagation. Every single individual in that family has a given set of traits. But when you start looking at a seed variety, it's not a strain. It's a variety or a cultivar. So try to start using these words, please.

1:34:02SpeakerIt's nice to see a Canadian weigh in on that side. Yeah.

1:34:13ChimeraYeah. Yeah, it's one of those things, like Sativa and Indica, you know what I mean? We all start using it, we learn the wrong thing, and then it becomes ingrained in our vernacular, but it's wrong. So, as leaders of the industry, we need to get a better example.

1:34:32BubblemanWell, I have a good one for you, Chimera. I saw a guy post on Facebook about a month ago, and he said, he said, can we please stop using the word strand? It's strain, not strand. I don't know why you fucking guys, and all I did was write in there, I was like, I think it's cultivar, but what do I know?

1:34:52ChimeraWell, it's specific, really. Variety, you can't, a variety is a seed population that you grow it, and the seeds reproduce the traits that describe the variety. So variety isn't just something called Blue Dream or OG Push, it's like, When you breed a set of seeds and they all have a specific set of traits that you describe, terpenylene dominant with this much myrcene and leaflets that are this big and the yield is this much and all the plants look the same, that's a variety.

1:35:22ChimeraBut a plant that you grow and you make seeds from, it's not a variety if it doesn't reproduce the seeds. I guess the other ones are cultivar, but we really maybe should define these things. I think Small gets into it a little bit in his 106-page recent thesis, Rob.

1:35:39BubblemanHey, I'm going to ask you to send me some links to, you know, you mentioned a genome paper earlier, and now you just mentioned that. Anything like that, I would love to be able to link into the Hash Church Facebook group. I know you don't use Facebook, but I do. Anything that's available that people can see. Sure.

1:35:55ChimeraThere's one. Do you know Ernest Small? Do you know Ernest Small? No. He's the guy that in Canada grew all those varieties in Ottawa in the experimental farm in like the late 60s and early 70s. So he's like a long-term cannabis researcher and he's the guy that came up with that 0.3% thing, okay? Oh, really? Well, he said there seems to be a difference here and then the law, you know, the legal people decided that that was the variety difference.

1:36:23ChimeraBut he did a paper recently, Mark, that would really interest you guys, you Hatch Church guys. He came up with the... What did they do? He came up with a formula that you could measure the resin size of the gland, okay, in the plant, and then you could essentially put a chronometer on how old the bud was. And he looked at samples from like 40 years old.

1:36:44ChimeraAnyway, there's this huge long equation to like calculate the size of a resin gland.

1:36:48BubblemanWow, so how much it shrinks in age?

1:36:50ChimeraYeah, that's what they measured, that it does shrink in age. Like the waxy pillow is essentially deflating, right? You're losing your terps.

1:36:57BubblemanYeah.

1:36:58ChimeraAnd the cannabs are changing into other molecules and all that kind of shit. They looked at like 40-year-old varieties that they grew in the 70s in Canada.

1:37:05BubblemanThat's ridiculous.

1:37:06ChimeraYeah. Yeah, the research we do. I don't know how that's relevant or how you'd be able to use that info.

1:37:13SpeakerThat's how I always say, is it a grape or a raisin that we're starting with? Right.

1:37:18BubblemanI've been known to say that myself.

1:37:22ChimeraYeah, it's a good one. I heard Sam say that the other day. I'd never heard you guys say that.

1:37:26BubblemanI think I caught it from Sam years ago for sure because he was just, when we photographed it, it changed everything because you can look at it under a microscope, it's one thing, but then the photograph allows everyone to look at it under the microscope, right? You can all look at it and that's when we were noticing the ridges. He was like, yeah, you know, once they're, you know, you don't want to dry sift fully bloomed out heads.

1:37:48BubblemanYou want them like little raisins.

1:37:51ChimeraJust like, wow, all right. I know you're all into the macro. I mean, it teaches you a lot, for sure, when you start looking at things up close, you know?

1:38:00BubblemanYeah, well, like Todd mentioned, it's very different when you look at things that close. When you get under the macro and you start paying attention to the plant in this different almost modality, really, it shows you things that Rearrange the importance of how you grow the plant. You just want to meet, I personally learned more and more as I was growing that I wanted to focus Mostly on the resin because that's what I was growing for.

1:38:28BubblemanI wasn't growing. I learned it as a hemp farmer as well or a hemp, you know, when we did our hemp crops in Manitoba. We knew that if we wanted to plant for seed, it was one way. If we wanted to plant for fiber, it was another way. And there was different ways and different strains that are, sorry, cultivars or varieties that we could grow in the hemp world depending on what we were growing for.

1:38:48BubblemanSo it makes sense that you would do the same thing with your... With your resin.

1:38:55ChimeraYeah. So you wanted to talk about some stuff last week about the Emerald Cup and this microbial and the pesticide testing, right?

1:39:03BubblemanYes.

1:39:04ChimeraI think it's a good time for a conversation with that. Rob, you're here, and so unfortunately Alec is not here. You guy, you should have showed up, but whatever. Maybe in the future we'll get you on. So you guys were talking about how the microbial testing is done in these tests, right? And pesticide testing. So, pesticide is typically done by GC. Now, you've got to remember in the context of the Emerald Cup, it's supposed to be a sun-grown, organic Northern Cal competition.

1:39:39ChimeraSo, those of you guys that got busted spraying pesticides on your plant, I think, pretty much deserve a big fuck you. Not cool to be entering... Poison sprayed plants into the competition. That's supposed to be organic. And medical. Not cool. But the microbials, I think they use essentially a broth technique, something that 3M developed. It's called Petri Film. But essentially most of these tests, what they do, and I think the Canadian system is the same way, What they do is they, you take a bud, you grind it up, you put it in a broth, like an agar type of medium with nutrients and hormones and sugars.

1:40:22ChimeraAnd then anything that's contaminating the flower, anything that's alive or fungal spores or, you know, what have you, can start to grow. And then you can select the colonies and test it and grow it and figure out what it is. Or you can just measure that it exists above a certain level. They call CFUs or colony forming units. And what the government does or whoever the regulating body does, they set a threshold and you're either over or above or below.

1:40:53ChimeraAnd I think that's how SC did their testing. It's too bad Alex is not here to tell us exactly. Kevin McKernan from Medicinal Genomics has come up with a really cool test So you can consider when you're doing a DNA extraction from a plant, you extract all the DNA out of the plant, but you're also extracting the DNA of any plant that lives on, or any organizm.

1:41:17ChimeraYou're essentially extracting any DNA that's there. So you're also extracting DNA from any organizm that is living on the plant or had lived on the plant. So he's come up with a DNA bay waste of identifying which microorganisms are living on the plant. And, you know, this kind of comes to the topic of, is, do you really want a sterile plant? Like, are there good bacteria and fungus, you know, fungal associations with the flower that naturally occur on cannabis that aren't necessarily bad for you, right?

1:41:52ChimeraLike, you know, the example that comes to mind is mycorrhizae in your soil, myco, mycos people call it or whatever you're using. And that's essentially a fungal association with the plant. The plant and the fungus kind of live, they co-live, they're symbiotic to each other. The plant provides nutrients to the fungus and the fungus is able to colonize the soil better than the soil roots can and they can reach in and get those nutrients and put them into the plant.

1:42:20ChimeraAnd maybe some of these things are happening on the flower too. So McKernan, what they did is they took flowers they were getting at dispensaries or whoever else And they would extract all the DNA, and because the DNA is digital, you can say, okay, here's one complete cannabis genome with only cannabis in it, and then what they do is they subtract all those DNA sequences from their pool of DNA, okay?

1:42:47ChimeraSo essentially you have your total DNA and you subtract everything that's cannabis. And then what you're left over with is the DNA of the microbiome, the living organizms that live with the plant. are on the plant, essentially, are on that bud sample, right? And then they can sequence those sequences and figure out what species they are. So this is a way you can very specifically detect organizms.

1:43:13ChimeraYou know, you can't just say, oh, it's a mold, there's mold on the plant. You can say, ah, it's aspergillus, right? So aspergillus is filamentous mold. If something's really bad, you shouldn't be smoking it. You can get spores in your lungs, and if you're immunocompromised, you can die. Thank you for watching.

1:43:53ChimeraAnd so it's a really, anyway, it's a really cool test that he's designed and essentially allows you to use genomics to identify the specific bugs that are on your flower, if there are bugs, and figure out which ones are harmful and which ones are maybe not so bad for you.

1:44:08BubblemanSo if some are having a symbiotic relationship with these plants, then it would suggest that not all of them are bad, correct?

1:44:22ChimeraYeah, well, so, I can't remember the name of the product, but maybe Rob can tell me. It's essentially Bacillus Subtilis. It's a bacterial fungicide. You spray it on the plant, and this bacteria kind of grows all over the leaves, and when a spore, a powdery mildew spore or something, or botrytis lands on your plant, the plant's already colonized by this other bacteria, so that bacteria kind of out-competes the spore.

1:44:53ChimeraAnd, you know, in the Canadian system, the MMPR, they've regulated what chemicals can be sprayed on the plant and what can't. And I think there's like seven, or last time I saw the list there was like seven, I think five of them were, they're bacteria.

1:45:10ChimeraSo, if it's on the plant, you're going to detect it, but the question is, is it bad for you, right? Yeah.

1:45:17Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, so in the U.S., that's regulated under FIFRA by the EPA, and the EPA will regulate that as what's called a biopesticide, and there's a lot of different, yeah, bacterial treatments like bacillus, but there's also other things, you know, BT corn is one of them. These are, again... I think it was actually Serenade was the one I was talking about. Yeah, they usually have a reduced risk and typically reduced risk because it's biological and it's not chemical, but that's not always the case.

1:46:03Dr Mark ScialdoneI guess the case in terms of risk.

1:46:05ChimeraNo, exactly, and that's why it's important to know. And, you know, it comes back to this organic outdoor competition where people are showing up with flowers that are contaminated with pesticides. And, you know, that's one of the things that needs to be taken care of under regulation. You can't, you know, everybody's so invested in their crops turning out well. You see guys up in Northern California and, you know, not just there, all over the world, Holland and Canada, British Columbia.

1:46:30ChimeraWhen it comes down to a grower going to lose his crops, They'll spray it with chemicals. They don't know the people that are smoking it.

1:46:40ChimeraIt's going to be one of the good things about regulation. People shouldn't be smoking chemicals. You shouldn't be smoking stuff that you don't know.

1:46:47Dr Mark ScialdoneThe crop protection chemicals that are used to protect food crops like corn and soy are just not... appropriate for use in cannabis or something that's gonna essentially be harvested for its content that's going to be a waxy trichome. Those trichomes are gonna absorb any type of chemical that basically they come in contact with and I don't know that there's again like you said that they're following this by GC You know, a lot of these pesticides, again, what makes a pesticide use today is not just a chemical that kills bugs, it's really a chemical that has a really safe profile at the use rate that it can be used effectively to control whatever pest that's being applied to the produce.

1:47:47Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd as I've pointed out, most produce is intentioned to be washed, and a lot of that washing Typically would take care of most residue although again you could look at any produce and probably at some level find some trace contaminant in there but the question really becomes with cannabis is that there hasn't been crop protection molecules designed to basically protect cannabis from the Thank you for joining us.

1:48:45ChimeraAnd they say there's no science. It'll come. All that stuff's going to come. We're going to learn about so much stuff in the next five, ten years even now that we're seeing legalization in these various districts around North America. And South America, too, for that matter. So, yeah, we've got to do studies. You can't know without looking into it, right?

1:49:06HoratioI got a question. Would the use of UVC light damage the DNA they're testing for in those molds? Because I know it's like standard production practice in a lot of floral industries to highly use that UVC to kill, well, basically destroy the DNA of microbes.

1:49:28ChimeraIt doesn't destroy the DNA. It causes breaks, okay? And DNA breaks are enough to kill the organizm, but the DNA is still there, so... When DNA gets destroyed, either naturally, like through the organizm dying naturally, or whatever, it gets chopped up into little pieces, and some storage conditions are going to keep longer pieces. But with the current DNA sequencing, a broken piece of DNA doesn't matter. In fact, it's part of the process.

1:49:55ChimeraThey break up the DNA and sequence small pieces. It's still there.

1:49:59HoratioOkay, because the UVC test has been used to kind of cheat because it'll kill microbes, so there's skeletons everywhere, but there's no evidence because of the type of testing they're using, so that DNA would beat it, basically catch them.

1:50:11ChimeraYeah, so that's what comes back to that broth test we were talking about earlier, the 3M film or the Biolumix machines that some of the labs are using, and they're life-based tests. It's dip your bud, does bacteria or fungi grow in the culture, okay? So if you used UBC, like you're saying, it causes DNA breaks in the plant or in the organizm, you know, the contaminant, the microbe, and stops it from growing.

1:50:40ChimeraSo you're right. That's not a good way to do it. It's a fail of the test. Put it that way. What's the accuracy of that 3M test? Do you know? I don't know the 3M test. I know the Biolumix is like a two-stage one. We were using it in our lab for a while, and it's... It has a lot of pulse. It has a lot of pass-fails.

1:51:01ChimeraAnd it's like it works, but it kind of, the medicinal genomics test I think is, I'm partial to DNA. I think it's a cool topic.

1:51:13Dr Mark ScialdoneSo these failures at the Cup were all based on this 3M test, this 3M-based test?

1:51:19ChimeraIt's like anything, Mark. It's like you always, you know, you read a paper, you have to question, how did they do, what were the methods?

1:51:26Dr Mark ScialdoneAgain, my question is, what's the failure rate? And when they get a positive, do they go back and do they retest to make sure that it wasn't a false positive? Because again, if there's a lot of noise as to what the winner and loser from that test is, It's a crapshoot whether or not your stuff is really contaminated or not, isn't it? It's not, yeah. I think that was the issue, Marcus, that we brought up on Hash Church was we wanted clarity from the guy at SC Labs on the process by, you know, if the stuff is handled in the right way.

1:52:04Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, could it be that laboratory is the source of the contamination since all these samples are coming back so hot?

1:52:12ChimeraSo, I'm just... Well, look, any results are as good as the test. You always have to evaluate your lab. And we're not talking... I mean, in this case, we're talking about SC labs, okay? But in the context of cannabis on the market, which is really the greater question, we don't really care about these samples. I mean, it's interesting, but the topic is how much hash is contaminated, how much weed is contaminated on the market, right?

1:52:37ChimeraAnd so any test is only as good as the lab, right? And so labs have to be validated and labs have to be ring tested against each other to see who's right and who's accurate. You know, you're always limited by the one guy's using Biolumix, one guy's using the Petri dish, some other guys are using this DNA-based method, right? So to say pass or fail and, you know, Look, that's why I tried to get Alec to come on the show, and I don't want to speak for SC.

1:53:07ChimeraI wanted them to come on and say...

1:53:09Dr Mark ScialdoneHe doesn't want to take the heat, right?

1:53:12ChimeraIt's not the heat. It's not my fault. It's the heat falls on the growers, right?

1:53:15Dr Mark ScialdoneExactly, exactly. But the question was, is again, when you look at all of these hash samples, I guess, Marcus, it was the dry sift category that uniformly had failures for what's typically not seen...

1:53:31BubblemanIt got changed. They were all failed, and then they weren't all failed. I think quite a few still failed, maybe four out of the seven or eight, but it was like 90% before.

1:53:44ChimeraOne of the things that they were doing at the Cup, at least for the flowers, was the top ten flowers were going to have their DNA. McKernan was going to sequence the DNA of the plant, the genome of the plant, or the bud.

1:54:00ChimeraI don't know if SC still has pieces of the samples from the hash, but theoretically, we could get them to send to Kevin McKernan, and I'm sure they'd do it. I know them both, so.

1:54:12Dr Mark ScialdoneIs that a very expensive test, and does it take a quick turnaround? I mean, could they tell, like, pretty quickly whether or not the sample is contaminated or not?

1:54:21ChimeraWell, the sequencing? Yeah, how quick is the turnaround on the test? I mean, no, sequencing's fast. It's like the new next generation sequencing is not that complicated. I don't know the exact cost. It's probably less than 50 bucks. I'm sure it's even much less than that.

1:54:37Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, so a $50 test that can basically tell whether or not these samples are really contaminated or not can basically... You can tell if there's DNA from another organizm in it.

1:54:49ChimeraYou can identify specific sequences. And when you do that, you obviously have to have studies that... That, you know, you know you have your, it's, it's, you gotta do a calibration curve. You gotta know if you have a low level of contamination or a high level of contamination or a moderate level of contamination, right? And what do those things mean? It's like, all that science has yet to be done.

1:55:10ChimeraBefore these things are, you know, accepted to the market. But it's just our market, as far ahead as we are, we're not very far ahead in terms of, um, Identifying these kind of things, you know. There's still a lot of markets. I mean, the United States is much farther ahead in Canada as far as this is. The dispensaries, they test their cannabis. They test it for, well, some of them do.

1:55:37ChimeraAnd some of them test it on varied degrees, whether it's just potency or terps or microbials. But, you know, that's something that I think consumers should demand moving forward. You should be able to know what's in the product that you're buying. When you go buy a can of soup, it says on the back, this is what's in it, you know. You're not allowed to, you have limits.

1:55:53ChimeraYou're only allowed to have like one piece of rat poop for a thousand cookies or whatever it is. You know what I mean? Like, you have to have regulations.

1:56:09HoratioI was going to ask, when it comes to that breakdown in let's say even like mold, do you think it's mainly in the low education and production standards? Is there more of a chance that it's the trimmer's filthy hands and their practices during that tight rush in the curve versus it being contaminated and every grower is an evil person, could it be literally Thank you for joining us.

1:57:02ChimeraIt's tough, man. I mean, look, LPs are growing in crazy environments. Everybody grows in crazy environments. It should be growing in the sun and there's a natural level of, I mean, stuff grows on plants. Like, organizms interact with each other in the environment. It's what happens. It's life, right? You can't grow stuff in sterile. It's not, and is it necessary, right? I don't know. I think a lot of that stuff can be dealt with and contaminated.

1:57:27ChimeraI mean, you're talking like E. coli. Did the trimmer go to the washroom and wipe his ass and then wash his hands and then go back to handling your butt? You know, like for sure that happens. Arno Hayskamp did a study in Holland and they looked at the government weed versus the coffee shop weed and a lot of the coffee shop weed had like E. coli on it.

1:57:43ChimeraYou know, some grower didn't wash his hands. So under regulation, you see companies, they got the growers with the hairnets and the gloves and there's protocols. Right? There's steps that you take to avoid contamination. But, yeah. I mean, even meat companies here in Canada or the States, stuff gets recalled all the time. You know, you get listeria in hot dog manufacturers shutting down for six months. Like, it happens.

1:58:14ChimeraBut that's why you have recall systems.

1:58:16Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, and a lot of those are DNA-based diagnostic tests that they use to scan ground beef and All that processed animal shit that goes into, yeah, processed foods.

1:58:28ChimeraHey man, you get like salmonella on like sprouts and broccoli and spinach leaves. It's like, you know, it happens. But you get recalls. In a black market, you don't get recalls. You know, I mean, hey, even in California this year, they had huge fires. They had huge problems with fires in the grow areas. They're going through an insane drought in California. And, uh, They had a whole bunch of smoky bud and it got turned into extracts.

1:59:00SpeakerMy concern is that as we enter into regulation, which we obviously need, that cannabis, because of the fear, which is based in a lack of proper knowledge and education on the part of people who set regulations, part of the FDA and then TFA or ATF and all these guys, they're They're going to be involved, and I'm afraid they're going to regulate beyond what they do for other products.

1:59:30SpeakerObviously, food regulations need to be followed, but as new regulations come in for something that's smoked as well, the tobacco industry is not particularly well regulated, but I doubt they'll serve as a model for what's going to happen either. So it'd be nice to see People who understand cannabis and understand that it's not really necessarily dangerous, try to advise the government on setting regulations that are doable.

2:00:01SpeakerFor sure.

2:00:05ChimeraThere's still a lot of weird-based nonsense that goes on in this industry. I mean, even in Canada right now, it's like, okay, we've decided that we're going to regulate and we're going to legalize, but it's like, We'll see you next time.

2:00:36ChimeraEven when you're, at least in my family, the kids were allowed to have a little glass of wine. You're taught about it. You're taught how to use the substance. You're taught this is part of society and this is how we interact with it. Prohibition has completely knocked all that out of any rational discussion about the plant. Cultural knowledge is passed down from the older to the younger.

2:01:01ChimeraThere's always going to be harm by kids that aren't Educated properly about substances on how to use them.

2:01:10SpeakerYou know, I feel like in America where we have a lot of what I would call extended adolescence, where you see people that never grew up still living with their parents and stuff, and I wonder if it's a lot of this because we raise these, you know, when I was living in Europe, I felt like I was around parents and teenage kids, and the kids were young adults.

2:01:31SpeakerThey were thinking about college. They were forward thinking about, you know, their responsibilities in the world and the expectations they had for their life. And in America, I feel like we don't even allow our kids to drink until they're 21. So we're so backwards asked in the way that we give kids responsibilities. I mean, the age of consent in Europe is 16. Here it's 18 or 21.

2:01:51SpeakerAnd it's...

2:01:54SpeakerI think a little crazy because I think that we're getting what we pay for in a way. We're not raising our kids to be young and mature and responsible at the ages that you go back 100 years. They had to be because you hit 12, 13, 14, you were working. You were helping take care of the house and the place and the farm. You were helping make your food or get your food or be part of the process of life.

2:02:19SpeakerNow there's just this disconnect. People can be fucking children into their 20s. And I think that's kind of fucked up, and I think we should actually have much more responsibility placed on these teenagers, these young adults. I mean, giving a kid a license to drive a fucking car, but then saying, you know, we're not going to trust you to do shit else, is a little backwards-assed, in my opinion.

2:02:41SpeakerAnd I really, after living in Europe and experiencing what I felt was like really... You don't see the extended adolescence to the same degree that you see it here in America. You see, you know, adults taking care of their parents. Don't get me wrong, that's not the same thing. You know, but when you see kids dependent on their parents, fucking long after anybody I know that's had a kid expected their kid to be dependent upon them, and that's kind of becoming the norm.

2:03:08SpeakerAnd I think a lot of it maybe could be rooted to the way that we have, you know, prohibited their ability to experience life and grow up at the ages that they used to.

2:03:19BubblemanYeah, well said, Todd, well said. It's definitely a little bit of part of the problem, that's for sure. You know, it's crazy in Canada because, from my perspective, you know, using cannabis before I was licensed, you know, would put me in a situation where potentially, you know, Child Family Services could come take my children. And, you know, once I got that license on the wall and to carry around with me, the The difference that it made was so incredible, especially for my wife and for my family.

2:03:52BubblemanIt's just all of a sudden like it's a non-issue, just like that. So it's not really a moral issue, it's this paper issue that you just sign and then it's okay. How can you say, oh, that's very bad, and then all of a sudden you get this piece of paper and say... Well, that's, you know, that's perfectly fine.

2:04:08SpeakerWell, dare I say we live to such a degree of bigotry and double standard that a family that raises grapes and makes wine is an upstanding member of our community. You know, but, you know, a family that grows cannabis and makes hash are, you know, I don't even got to say. We all know what happens. We're fucking public enemy number one.

2:04:27ChimeraThat's over, though. I mean, I understand that it's still, we're still feeling the aftershock of prohibition, but You know, look at Facebook or Twitter or all these places that have legal facilities and they're registered and regulated.

2:04:42SpeakerSure, but you know what, though? It's not over yet because what we're experiencing is a lot of decriminalization and for the end user and the retail experiences, they're existing because the cops aren't busting in California, for instance, the pot shops. They're busting us, the growers. I know, man.

2:04:57BubblemanThey're going after the producers.

2:04:58SpeakerGrowers aren't regulated yet.

2:05:00ChimeraThey don't have the right to produce anything. And that's fucked up. Even in California that's changing.

2:05:07SpeakerI mean, I hear what you're saying and I totally agree with you. I actually live in California and we're a long ways away. I've been prosecuted three times since I got out of federal prison in 2004. So it isn't changing that much. I, you know, I mean...

2:05:26ChimeraEven in California, Brown just changed the law, right? He combined those three pieces of legislation into a new thing and they're going to license growers. Like, you could get licensed under the new system and when you...

2:05:38SpeakerWhat is happening in the future is right, but forward thinking what could happen. We're 19 years after we passed 215, and we're having this conversation of what could happen in the future. And, you know, I get it. I know what could happen in the future. I've read the legislation. The reality is is that we're still being oppressed. The producers are still getting their gates kicked in, their doors kicked in, their property stolen, and that's what's screwed up under the decriminalization and what we're dealing with right now.

2:06:04SpeakerThat is really why we do need regulation, and You know, look at the Parker Initiative. It's more restrictive than 19 was, in all irony, but there's people that are going to have to, or I think people are going to support it because we're so sick of prohibition. It's so horrible. We need this regulation, though. We really don't have it in California at all.

2:06:23ChimeraListen, I hear you, man, and I empathize with you, and I totally understand where you're coming from. I think you're a little bit shell-shocked by the past fucking 25 years, to be honest. But for me, what it comes down to is this. And laws are changing in Canada. It's the same thing everywhere as it goes forward. There's Colorado models where there's personal cultivation, and there's Washington models where it's corporate production with no personal cultivation.

2:06:49ChimeraAnd I think that this is the issue that we really, really need to discuss moving forward is, We ensure that people can grow their own. Hey, you want to sell your weed, you want to put stuff out on the market, you've got to be part of the regulated system. You want to brew your own beer, make your own wine, or grow your own smoke in your backyard, that's a totally different story and you should be allowed to do that.

2:07:10ChimeraAnd for us as the people and the Not part of the ruling system, we're not part of the political process, you know, really we control the political process and we gotta remember that, we gotta make sure that the regulations that get put into place allow for personal production and they stop the government from fucking with us for just growing a plant. But if you want to grow a bunch of weed and sell it, then you need to be part of the system because you can't be putting, it's not ethical to be putting pesticides or moldy products or whatever else, like we're talking with the Emerald Cup, out onto the market for having other people to smoke.

2:07:44ChimeraSo you want to make money off cannabis, cool, I have no problem with that, be part of the system. Do it ethically. But you want to grow your own weed, I think everybody should have the ability to do that.

2:07:56SpeakerYou know, I believe there's going to be a right to home growers to grow it, just like tomatoes, for instance. You know, you can grow your own tomatoes or, you know, you can just go buy them at the Whole Foods or whatever, the supermarket. They're so inexpensive. That's going to happen. And I think that there's nothing that's going to protect the profit for the home growers. The price of cannabis is going to drop out, I do believe.

2:08:24SpeakerThe artificial threshold of prohibition has created ridiculously overpriced cannabis, and that's going to go away. And I'm pro that. I am totally for that. I can't wait until the market's flooded with, just like there's cheap wine on every corner, cheap cannabis for anyone who wants to forego the cheap wine, because I think the cannabinoids are better for them than any of the alternatives, the nicotine, the alcohol that's currently literally On every corner.

2:08:50SpeakerSo, you know, I can't wait for regulation to take place in California because we're probably the world's largest cannabis economy market in the world. You know, and we are seeing great innovation and there are places like BPG and others that are really operating ethically, testing everything, and they're rejecting stuff that comes back that doesn't meet PAR, that does have microbials or does have bug eggs or what have you.

2:09:15SpeakerPesticides, they're looking at a full spectrum. You know, hopefully that becomes the normal standard because just like when you go in a supermarket, you don't expect mold in your brownie or your bread. You expect there to have been a control mechanism that made sure that was actually fresh and the manufacture date was actually honest. You know, and that's what I think we're working for, and I think we're working for equal rights.

2:09:36SpeakerI mean, because when Mark talks about feeling like he got a piece of paper, and suddenly he could, you know, not feel the stress and anxiety of potentially losing his children due to his lifestyle, you know, and I think that's where we're feeling the pressure too, because we're still a long way from being equal to that family growing grapes and making wine on the hill in Napa.

2:09:57SpeakerAnd that's what I would like to see achieved for us, because They can have shotguns and we can't go near guns because we have pot, they have grapes and alcohol. There's such bigotry and inequality happening against us and that's what we're facing honestly more than just in Canada, Colorado, Washington, Oregon or potentially California. It's really globally and we've still got boots to our neck. I mean there's a lot of great innovation but I think Everyone should look at this, see what's happening in places like Canada, which is so great and progressive and moving at such a rapid rate.

2:10:30SpeakerI mean, you guys went from not being able to have high times 25 years ago to now growing hemp everywhere and having cannabis clubs and potentially full legalization. It's amazing. So I just still see a lot of oppression down here south of the border, to be really, really honest with you. Someday soon, I hope, we have a quality.

2:10:53BubblemanWell, cops are still arresting people here in Canada, too, although recently one in Quebec was let off by a judge for, like, I think a $1 fine because the judge just said, this is fucking ridiculous. And the guy got caught with hundreds of plants.

2:11:10BubblemanSo it was nice to see, even though, once again, it could still be argued quite easily that he still had his door kicked in and all his shit taken and took a huge loss and, you know, like, There's still a lot of negative. We get so used to being busted over the last 20 to 40 years that everyone's just like, oh, well, at least I got off.

2:11:29BubblemanIt's like...

2:11:30SpeakerYou know, and I understand what you mean about saying shell-shocked. A lot of people are. They get hit once and they're out of the, you know, the scene completely and it's hard. And, you know, for me, I've learned how to operate under the oppression of the government because it hasn't been just since I've got out of prison. I mean, they started harassing me as soon as I became public with Jack.

2:11:48SpeakerI mean, I got busted in 95, 97. My whole life's been under the pressure of prosecution, but I've been pretty productive nonetheless. And I wish more people could. My message is it's not that big a deal. Even jail is kind of a joke. And, you know, so I think we have a definitive path to freedom, but we really do have to fight for equal rights. Seriously, I think we do.

2:12:11ChimeraAnd justice. Yeah, and it's, I mean, dude, living in the States too, I mean, I've done some time down there and it's... You know, it's so different from state to state. You guys don't have that mentality where it's because, you know, even in California, it's like you say, you're getting hit all the time and Washington people are getting busted. It's still federally illegal, right? And that puts a lot of pressure on you because you got the contradiction of the state law versus the federal law.

2:12:41ChimeraBut I also drove through, you know, Portland a couple of weeks back and I remember coming into Washington or, I think it was on the Washington side, and there was a big, a big, big old sign on the side of the road, and it was like a concentrate flowers company, you know? They had a big, big billboard right on the side of the 101, so it's like...

2:13:04ChimeraYou know, like, it's illegal.

2:13:05SpeakerWell, can I tell you an honest, when I got out of prison, I did a THC Expo in downtown Los Angeles in 2009, and I purchased 35 billboards around the city, and I put Uncle Sam on it, and with Nature Needs You, with Poynton, and THC Expo, Los Angeles Convention Center, because I thought, how many of my DE agents that harassed me when I went to prison are going to drive by this shit on the way to work and go, what the Fuck is the THC Expo?

2:13:31SpeakerAnd then look and go, oh look, McCormick's out of prison and he rented the LA Convention Center. And, you know, I think that us maturing in this industry is really what we need, you know, and us becoming, you know, this lifestyle, especially when you look at California, we've had people smoking pot in Santa Cruz since, you know, surfers in the early 60s, if not 50s, right, Rob?

2:13:54SpeakerWhere did cannabis culture in the West Coast begin, Mr. Clark? California, yeah.

2:14:01BubblemanGo ahead, Rob, I unmuted you.

2:14:08SpeakerWell, I thought I unmuted him. Thanks for the Phylos project. It's amazing how many samples from urban parts of Los Angeles, from lots and street corners and just Not really grows, but a feral plant come up in somebody's yard or maybe stuck some steeds in the ground, but not a garden really that's been reported. But 1940s, 1950s, early in the 60s before hippies really even had much of a thing going.

2:14:44SpeakerSo there was something going on there already. We didn't have much of the Afro-American jazz scene here, so I suppose we really have to look at the Latin American spring here. That's what I was going to ask you, Robert.

2:14:57HoratioHow much moved around through the jazz scene?

2:15:01SpeakerI really don't know. I've always wondered about this, how extensive it really was and how much of that's just demonization. There are Louis Armstrong and some famous jazz vipers, but I really have no idea. Another thing here in the States, too, I doubt because of where the plants were found that this is the situation, but the mission system in California did cultivate hemp. I've never heard of any feral populations in California.

2:15:28SpeakerWe just don't have a lot of niches where this could really happen very easily. But possibly some of these sort of wild things they found around Sacramento, Central Valley back in the early days too. I suppose some of this could be descendant from mission days. We'll do the genetics. Then we'll find out maybe. But yeah, interesting stuff.

2:15:58BubblemanWell, now if Darren was in here, he'd say something like bong rip.

2:16:05ChimeraYou look like you're supposed to be something mere skin rich, Mark.

2:16:08BubblemanNo, I just got out of two days of the flu, so I'm kind of pale and a little bit like haven't eaten in like 36 hours.

2:16:17BubblemanCan't miss hash church, though.

2:16:23BubblemanCan't miss Hash Church. I'll tell you, it would have been hard to do Hash Church yesterday when I was fully in the sickness.

2:16:31SpeakerI'm really happy to see the level that we jumped to on Hash Church this morning. We're talking about quality control, and we're beginning to talk about taking these issues into our own hands. This is an important step forward. It really is.

2:16:47ChimeraYou see it in California, too. If you don't take it into your own hands and be responsible about it, they're going to take it and put it in the hands of big companies, and it's already starting to happen.

2:17:00BubblemanWell, because those big companies have these standards on lockdown, they know how to set it all up, so if people were more humble and accepted that You know, they don't know everything. If they went into it with that sort of mentality, then people would have... Like, I mean, just think back to the day of, like, trimmers sitting around, you know, in a garage somewhere with, like, cigarettes in their mouths and, like, dirty, nasty oil hands, and they're just like, yeah, trim in, fuck this and fuck that, and it's just like, oh, my God, like, that is not a standard... Yeah, you throw the butt on the floor and you pick it up and it goes in the pile and all that kind of stuff.

2:17:36ChimeraHey, man, it's what happens, you know? But that's part of being, you know, part of being responsible with your production. Take pride in your work, you know.

2:17:46BubblemanHow about in Nepal, Rob, when they're making oil out of the hash? Do they have good standards there?

2:17:55SpeakerAbsolutely not. Hand-rubbed hashish just runs around the surface of the plants with the collected sticky resin glands and then all the other fungal spores and insect parts and Little bits of leaf.

2:18:10ChimeraAt Morocco, they take it right in the sun on the top of the roof because the kids are running around it, and then they throw it in a storage locker until it dries out enough and it gets cold enough to sit. I mean, the rodents running around and everything.

2:18:23SpeakerOh, yeah, you hear the chickens running around on the tin roofs picking all the seeds up and pooping all over the weed at the same time. Lovely. Oh!

2:18:32ChimeraThat's prohibition. Prohibition. You know? Max.

2:18:37BubblemanI will welcome standards. I don't like the word regulations, but I guess really it's not a bad word. It's just the word that states you need to have certain standards here.

2:18:48ChimeraCannabis is a perishable product. We have flowers that are 8-10% water contact. They're still alive. It's a product. It's a product.

2:18:59SpeakerYou've got to treat it right. You know, and truthfully, it is just an agri-product. We're going to see some really incredible cannabis when we can legally grow it in controlled environments like we do other agricultural products that we buy at Whole Foods. It's really going to change the level of expertise and the amount of management that can be put on these crops on a large scale, which we don't have now.

2:19:24SpeakerCannabis will be better, safer, cleaner, fresher, smell better. At least I think so.

2:19:29ChimeraYeah, well, it should be, you know. You're putting a product into somebody else's hands. I think anybody that's doing that has a moral responsibility to put a good product in their hands. It should be something of pride that you do, you know. And if you're not doing it like that, then I don't want anything to do with your cannabis.

2:19:46SpeakerYeah, do it better than your neighbors and then teach them how to do it. That's the best thing you could do. Develop standard operating procedures for quality control in-house and then show your neighbors.

2:20:03SpeakerThat's the game. I always like to say if you're making medicine or products and you make a product or a medicine, whatever that product would be, and you have it, and you ask yourself, would you smoke it? Would you use it as medicine? And if you say no... Then you should definitely not be presenting that to others. And the other thing that some people ask me, like, hey, what's your secret head stash?

2:20:29SpeakerWhat are you smoking on that nobody else is smoking on? My answer is always the same. I don't really have any. I share that with all of you. You know, just make your head stash the head stash that is available. So whatever it is, just make the best you possibly can. And that should be like the base core root. Thank you so much for your time.

2:21:17SpeakerBrews and different things like that. I mean, if you're in the sun and you're doing it as organically as possible and you didn't have a bad year, you didn't have smoke, you didn't have bugs, you didn't have things breaking the plant down as strong as it can be, I mean, that's the starting source of everything, whether it's indoor or outdoor, you know?

2:21:43SpeakerYeah. SOP starts with the resin, starts with the flowers. Everything else could be just a domino effect of shit. You know, somebody says, hey, here's some flowers that, well, I didn't really get to finish it out. It seeded out, hermed out. It had some bugs on it at one point. Threfs were all over this son of a bitch. You know, like they hand you stuff and you're like, yeah, okay, so what do you want me to do with it?

2:22:10SpeakerI was hoping you could just make it into magic. And turn that around into some kind of medicine. How do you make it into a gabbable hash? You don't. You don't.

2:22:22BubblemanYou tell them that's in the grow room.

2:22:24SpeakerYeah, it's like, you don't.

2:22:29BubblemanThe chat room is asking, Adam Elder wants to know, he's interested to know what Chimera or Rob Clark think about the original ecological function of cannabis within the biosphere. You know, separate from human influence, from our relationship, I guess, you know, what would you guys think that cannabis was, is it directly here as a companion plant, which I believe Chris Bennett is in firm belief of, or was there a reason that it was put in the biosphere separate from us?

2:23:01ChimeraWell, it wasn't put by anyone, I mean, I don't think God would put it somewhere, but it evolved For its own purpose, and I think that we've shaped it for our purpose. That's what we do with crops. I mean, you know, corn came from a plant called Teosante, which is a weird grassy looking plant that had a few kernels, and we turned it into this crop that we plant, you know, a thousand, a hundred square feet or whatever, and it produces lots of kernels.

2:23:28ChimeraIt's like, that's what we do with crops. We change them. Rob would be more, um, a Probably to comment on what it would do in the environment. I mean, all organizms just try to survive. That's what DNA does. It's an exploration of biological space, you know, and the things that are advantageous or can survive in the environment, they continue to exist.

2:23:55SpeakerCannabis, before the relationship with humans, is kind of hard to figure out. It's an ancient relationship, and... Even to the point where it's arguable that there really aren't any truly wild populations anymore, just escapes from previous cultivation. So that's a tough one. I seem to favor more and more that it's pretty much all about the human cannabis relationship. But if you go before that and you look at Just the basic ecology of cannabis.

2:24:27SpeakerIt's incredibly diverse because of its outcrossing nature. It's a plant survival strategy that's relatively rare in the plant kingdom. There aren't that many... There you go. That's the book. But there aren't that many plants in the plant kingdom that are dioecious, that have XY, some sort of modified XY sexual inheritance. It's much more common in Animals and plants to begin with. Maybe 10% or so of the plant kingdom, 10-20%.

2:25:01SpeakerAnd then on top of that, you have other relatively rare traits. It's synesthesiaceous, it's outcrossing, so it's got all its genetic diversity. When it gets around to a place, it's incredibly adaptable. But when you look at natural dispersal mechanisms, the seeds don't Always float. They can sink as soon as they invite any water. Birds tend to crack them when they go through their gut systems, and rodents do the same thing.

2:25:31SpeakerIt's really kind of been up to us that it got around and got so many chances to do it on its own, to become feral again and be that sort of a population state.

2:25:42ChimeraYeah, and it's like you said, that genetic diversity allowed it to colonize six or seven continents. I mean, it's pretty impressive. It really is pretty impressive as far as species go, the adaptability, the variation. And that's one of the reasons it's so interesting to study. I still think that we've got a long way to go. You know, we can, cannabis can be the crop of the future.

2:26:04ChimeraWe've done a lot with fibers and hemp seed, but, you know, Sam's Tina variety, the big seed variety, it shows that we can start pushing the size of the seed from, you know, a tiny little thing to, To get it really nice and big, and the reality is when we hit like, can you, can you, it's too loud. Can you, yeah, when you start breeding it, I think that we can really push the size of that, the size of that seed up, and it's going to be one of the crops of the future.

2:26:33ChimeraWhen we hit 10 billion people, or 15 billion people living on this planet, we're not going to be growing huge herds of cows to feed them. It takes too much water, it takes too much land. We have to go to more of a plant-based nutritional system. We just have to. Cannabis can be a plant that we develop into a food source. Hemp seeds, Rob, you know all the stuff.

2:26:59ChimeraI'm sure Mark, everyone does here. It's kind of preaching to the converted, but hemp seed is incredibly nutritious. It's got the right range. It's got, I think, all the essential...

2:27:11Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's got soybean on pounds of protein per acre, which ultimately is the economic driver that's going to push it into the agricultural marketplace, which is pounds of protein per acre, you know? If it beats soybean, there's no question about it. What are you going to feed to your hogs? You're feeding them a protein meal, whether it came from soybean or hemp, regardless. I think what that's going to do is it's going to create that symbiotic relationship that now exists between the lumber mill and the paper mill, which is that you take the sawdust off the lumber mill floor and you turn it into paper across the street.

2:27:54Dr Mark ScialdoneSo when all this hemp is being grown again for seed and oil content, it will create again the fiber that will then be utilized for all the other applications you can do with hemp.

2:28:06ChimeraAnd that's where the real breeding is going to come in place for the future of the plant because we need to turn these space usages into really efficient systems. And right now the variety that's good for seed isn't the variety that has the ideal Fiber content or terpene profile or for whatever products we're pulling out of that acre of space. So I think we have a long way to go with that, but there's a lot of potential there, and I think cannabis is really an incredibly fascinating species, but everybody knows about how useful it is.

2:28:42ChimeraWe need to start pushing the plant in the right direction with all that. So we've got a lot of work to do, but there's a lot of potential, so.

2:28:52BubblemanAnd I'm willing to do some of the work personally. I'll put in a little bit of time.

2:28:56Dr Mark ScialdoneI don't know if you guys are... Hey, the Huffington Post article was enough, Mark. You know what? It just gives a little more... I'm surprised they didn't mention Hash Church, but it does give a little bit more oomph to where the story's going, which is bring this injustice out into the popular press. So people who would maybe not necessarily be exposed to it read about it and make their own minds up.

2:29:27Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd both with Bernie.

2:29:28ChimeraAt the Emerald Cup there was a girl there, a lady there, and she was interviewing all the geneticists and she was writing an article for Wired Magazine on the cannabis genome sequencing. So we all see it now. It's starting to get into more mainstream news. I think it's up to us to, you know, Be a little less dab focused because it comes off as just all about getting high and really push the science out there and push the knowledge out there.

2:29:57ChimeraAnd everybody needs to become informed on more about, man, you get so high. You know, it's not the way we treat wine. You don't go into a liquor store and say, which wine's got the strongest, highest alcohol content, you know, like. Cannabis, cannabis, hey, you don't need 30% cannabis, you know. 12, 15% cannabis with the right terpene profile has a nice effect. And so it's not all about the numbers.

2:30:24ChimeraI think we've got to really, we've got to move away from that mentality and start understanding the variations and, you know. Even with wine, it's like how do you, how do you know, everybody says how do you know what good wine is? Well, you drink a lot of wine. You know, you try a bunch of different stuff and see what you like. And, uh, I think people should not get so focused on what Snoop Dogg's favorite variety is or just follow the local, whatever the popular rap tune is at the time saying about OG Kush or whatever variety.

2:31:00ChimeraGrowers, grow the variations. Grow the different stuff. Don't do the same thing that everybody's doing and let's exploit some of the huge variation that exists.

2:31:10SpeakerFor a lot of somebody asked earlier how things have changed since the 70s. These hybrids changed everything. They're really, really strong. There was powerful weed before this, but not so readily available, not so downright potent. And a lot of my friends from back in the day, they miss that. They don't want to smoke what's around them. They don't want to smoke what young people are doing. They want a joint to go around the room until the joint's finished.

2:31:37SpeakerNot, you know, have the pipe go around, everybody takes one hit and sits there and stares at the wall. It's, okay, we're old, we're feeble, you can say whatever you want as young people, but it has changed. And people's tastes have not necessarily changed along with the majority, you know. So there's room for these different varieties. There's room for social cannabis that isn't just a complete, doesn't just completely tear you up, you know.

2:32:04SpeakerOkay, that's just not what people who are the cutting edge at the moment into, but there's a huge bunch of consumers that actually like to go back to smoking cannabis again. They quit 20 years ago. It's true.

2:32:20BubblemanVery interesting. Yeah, well, it's true. You know, the whole industry does seem to promote that stronger, more powerful. I mean, there is also a small... percentage of people that seem to push that aspect in the industry just because they might be anomalies themselves. Like I for one, I know exactly what Rob's talking about when I smoke a pipe with a bunch of people and they stare at a wall.

2:32:47BubblemanI'm just not one of those people that stares at the wall. I generally get...

2:32:51SpeakerBut you want to know, though, one of my questions about how cannabis has changed is because, you know, the vibe of it, if you will, I grew up growing in the 80s, and a lot of what I grew was the hybridized skunks and such. And when I got to Holland and I finally experienced long flowering You know, tropical varieties and they woke me up and they motivated me and they didn't knock me out.

2:33:14SpeakerI was blown away and I was even more blown away in a way to learn that they had higher THC than some of the ones that were more couch lock, if you will. And that whole, that's the vibrational difference, I think, that I was wondering, you know, if we start getting into plants 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 up in flowering time, you know, Does that kind of unlock that different vibe of cannabis?

2:33:38SpeakerYou know, that's what kind of I asked Rob earlier, but...

2:33:42ChimeraThey've got, listen, all those varieties, they've got different terpene profiles, right? And so, again, when Indica came in and smashed myrcene into all these plants... The younger generation, I mean, probably most of our age, except for Rob, I mean, we were, that's what we were weaned on. You know, it was varieties that would, like, punch you in the face, and that's how you knew you were high.

2:34:06ChimeraBut, and we just never saw the varieties that are a liming dominant, or, you know, we started, too, with the hazes, with the terpenylene plants, and those, you know, amnesia haze, and train rack, and jack hair, all those kinds of things. But, yeah, I think as terps, Start guiding choices, then you'll see some interesting things. SC Labs is starting a new lab report format that's really terpene based.

2:34:35ChimeraYou get all the information on your testing as far as cannabinoid ratios, but it's really terpene based and it shows you, it allows the consumer to know what the terpene entourage effect, as Ethan calls it, is going to be on the plant. I think once the market develops and we really start seeing That kind of information on varieties that people will start understanding the differences. They'll realize that OG Kush, it's a name, but that name really means a specific terpene profile that defines the variety.

2:35:13ChimeraDon't go into a dispensary and just ask for the strongest weed. Try different things. I think people...

2:35:20SpeakerYou know, it's funny because I've had OG Kush for a very long time. And when at the time Steve Hill first started testing, I was able to get my, at the time it was a haze and an OG Kush grown side by side tested together. And the OG came back under their test at 20.66 and the haze came back at 23.7. And I was like, wow, because if you were to smoke the OG, you'd feel, it was more, you know, 11 o'clock at night, hot tub pot.

2:35:51SpeakerAnd the haze was more, you know, 9 a.m., have some coffee, go deal with your day pot. And I was a little shocked that there was a vast difference in the THC levels, because I would have thought that the other stuff was stronger, but perception is, you know, different from the chemical reality.

2:36:09ChimeraWell, if you look at the terpene profile of OG Kush... Thank you for watching.

2:36:32ChimeraThat's a strong cannabis.

2:36:34SpeakerCan I ask you guys something? You know, Rob, back at the Institute of Medicine hearings they held in Los Angeles when they were doing that book that came out where they were doing a compendium on the research, I was one of the people that testified. And when we were there, one of the other scientists was up there talking about how he gave his subjects 10 milligrams of THC.

2:36:58SpeakerAnd had a controlled effect and then gave them the same with one milligram of CBN and it doubled the effective dose of the THC. And I questioned him, you know, only if he thought it would happen, you know, basically with weed and he said, yes. And is there any truth to this or is there, you know... Is there an ensemble effect that happens that amplifies the THC like he stated?

2:37:24SpeakerThat was public record too, by the way. It's probably in the Institute of Medicine book.

2:37:31SpeakerI don't know specifically about what the comments you're talking about, but CBD is well known to have profound effects on the way THC operates. What I've always thought of about CBN being a decomposition product, really, of THC, it's always involved in older weed, and older weed and hashish always have a dull sort of high, but they're also lacking the terpenes that have boiled out, so it's hard to keep those together.

2:38:02ChimeraMost imported hashes are also population grown, and a lot of the Moroccan hashes have CBD in them. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:38:40SpeakerWomen especially stopped smoking when hash ran out, imported hash ran out, and there was Justine Samia. This was before the Afghan varieties coming in. And then the Afghan varieties brought CBD back, and people seemed to like, some people seemed to really like those, but most people didn't, and we bred those. Brett, all those terpenes and CBD back out that we didn't like, and we ended up with really, weed was too racy for a lot of people, and the hash made from it is similar.

2:39:15SpeakerIt's not relaxing for a lot of people. And I think they found hash relaxing. They don't find weed relaxing until very recently we had these CBD varieties. There's a huge number of people are doing CBD with their THC. Which fascinates me. It's not my thing at all, but it's interesting. It's interesting because I've always known I favor terpenes as a grower because I've gotten them as a grower.

2:39:41SpeakerI've gotten them fresh. I can wait until they're perfect. And even if I have stuff that's more potent, I'll still favor a joint of really

2:39:53SpeakerI'm a big proponent of the concentrates and the BHO and stuff because for effectivity it's really wonderful and for people that have really extreme medical conditions, I have a chronic pain, I have a spinal fusion, you know, LV Musica for instance has glaucoma issues and Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:40:43ChimeraI think we need to have more types of varieties on the market to really understand this. I mean, you're talking about high THC concentrates for the most part, and that works for pain and for other things too. But we haven't really explored all the different cannabinoids that exist. For example, CBG has lots of beneficial effects. California tried to find a variety with more than 2-4% CBG on it.

2:41:09ChimeraIt just doesn't exist in the market. You know, CBDV, highly effective with CBD for epilepsy, not on the market. You know, even THCV for metabolic disorders. It's like you don't really see it out there.

2:41:22SpeakerWell, can I ask you guys, will doing the Genome Project give you guys the information on or insight to cannabinoid levels across the board?

2:41:31ChimeraEventually, yes. At the moment, we've got markers for THC and CBD. And theoretically you can find one for CBG because the information's already been published, but what happens is they're looking at all the varieties that are available on the drug market in the United States typically, so you get dispensary weeds, so you're already looking at a very, very thin piece of the pie. And we need to sequence more plants, we need to have chemotype data to associate with those plants so that you start tying...

2:42:05ChimeraTying the genetic variations that we're seeing in the genome with chemotypes, essentially, right? Or phenotypes, like chemical analysis chemotypes, right? Either terpenes or specific cannabinoids or whatever it is. And once we find that, then yes, you will start to be able to use the genetic data to effectively breed, but it's like, right now what we got is a bunch of ATGC, you know, we have all this genetic code that We don't know what the genes mean.

2:42:37ChimeraIt's like Rob said last week. It's like we're not really looking for genes yet. And Jonathan Page's group out of UBC and at Andy Labs is there now starting to do that with Terps, and he's found this olivetolic acid cyclase gene that's involved in the conversion of GPP and olivetolic acid into CBG. So We're on the verge, we're on the precipice of all that stuff happening, which is really cool, but we're not quite, quite there yet.

2:43:09Dr Mark ScialdoneIsn't that a unique enzyme in cannabis?

2:43:12ChimeraThe OAC? Yes. I believe so. I think probably the real answer to that, though, is that we haven't looked at enough other species. You know, everybody said for the longest time cannabinoids are unique to cannabis. Well, they're not. They've actually found CBG and... Heliochrysum, Umbrella Cum.

2:43:33Dr Mark ScialdoneSo where else can they put that pathway?

2:43:37ChimeraIn here it talks about all this kind of stuff. So if you're in California, pick up an Oceana Seeds.

2:43:44Dr Mark ScialdoneSo where else do you think that pathway can be put? Pardon me? Where else do you think they can put that pathway?

2:43:52ChimeraCould we engineer it to be? Yes. Wow, I mean, they're at the point now, guys, they're making THC and yeast and CBD and yeast, and these guys are talking about putting terpenes in.

2:44:03Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I think that's not the, that enzyme, right? I think they're just doing the CBD synthase, so they're feeding it CBG, aren't they?

2:44:14ChimeraWell, they're, I think, to be honest, they're in research phase right now. They're kind of collecting all the data and looking at, trying to figure out the pathway, but... The idea with yeast production is you put all the genes in the pathway into one yeast and then you start feeding it sugar and you get your byproduct at the end. There was a Japanese group for research purposes.

2:44:34ChimeraThey found the THC synthase gene and then they put that into tobacco roots and then they plant CBG and produce THC. But I mean, who cares? You have to grow the plants back to CPG. What's the point of doing that? You know, you want to make a yeast that does the whole thing.

2:44:55Dr Mark ScialdoneRight.

2:44:56ChimeraEventually. And that's where they're working. In Germany, we're, I think, at the University of Dortmund, isn't it, Rob?

2:45:01SpeakerYeah. Yeah. Yeah, they'd like to do, like, sapon with... Morphine synthases and things, they pretty much have that whole chain in the yeast now.

2:45:12Dr Mark ScialdoneDr. A whole lot is the premolation of all the acid. That's the real finding carbon-carbon bond formation in that pathway that defines the cannabinoid pathway. Certainly, if that can be put into You know, yeast or bacteria or shit, dandelions for whatever, you could basically use another plant to basically produce cannabinoids, which is kind of exciting.

2:45:43ChimeraYeah, it's cool, but I think it's kind of stupid. I mean, at the same time, it's like we already have a perfect biological system factory that does exactly that. Why do we have to put it into dandelions? You know what I mean?

2:45:54SpeakerAll we have to do is normalize it so we can use it like any other plant.

2:45:58BubblemanYeah. It goes to show you the level of how non-normalized, how absolutely like out of the realm of normalness that it is when people are like, well maybe we can put it in yeast or like a potato or something.

2:46:12ChimeraArtifacts of prohibition, you know, artifacts of prohibition. But there's a lot of cool stuff that's on the horizon that we don't know anything about. There's a research group in Italy that made, they found a compound called sesquicBG, so it's essentially... A CBG molecule that's synthesized not from GPP, but it's synthesized from GFP, Mark. And so they call it sesquicBG, and then theoretically if you have sesquicBG, maybe that can be made into sesquithTHC or sesquicBD.

2:46:44Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's basically just another isoprene unit that's tagged on to the end to just do other chemistry too. Yeah, that's really cool. I'm still interested in this hashishine compound that we talked about last week that seems to be a predominant monoterpene sink in terms of what these terpenes like to rearrange too. So yeah, I mean there's all kinds of Chemistry that you know you're talking about you can do like on the pathway or like what reason would there possibly be for putting this stuff into dandelions I mean I know that sounds completely ludicrous in some way but I had a colleague who was looking to put um Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:48:00Dr Mark ScialdoneNo problem. We don't have to mess with it, but the point is I think if we understand the pathway and we understand how it works, we can understand like under what conditions can we use the genomics. Understanding it becomes like then you have this directory that you have to then create it into the next level, which is functional genomics, right, and understanding which genes Correspond to not just the proteins, but as you know, genes can sometimes moonlight and have several different functions that we don't know about.

2:48:36Dr Mark ScialdoneWe know about this function that this gene codes for this enzyme, but that gene could also have a myriad of different other functions, and the way that they all work together in the biological organizm is something that totally needs to be fully teased out. But I would go to the point of saying that, again, what Mother Nature can do By providing this plethora of molecules in the trichome, now a chemist like me could come along and intentionally do chemistry to the oil itself.

2:49:11Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's what I'm really fascinating. I look at the oil as not the product and the medicine that most everyone, I look at it as the starting material and what kind of chemistry can I do. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:49:43Dr Mark ScialdoneAt a level again that you would just completely knock yourself out systemically if you had to take it, but if you could selectively deliver it to tumors, it would be a way of again using what's already known in drug delivery, which is how do you deliver chemotherapeutic agents selectively to tumors and use that for cannabinoids. It's totally possible.

2:50:04ChimeraIt's totally possible. I mean, our community, I think, is what you're essentially talking about is genetically modified organizms. And I think the cannabis community in general is pretty, like, resistant to that type of technology. But moving forward, you know, things like CRISPR or talens and all these genetic methods for specific genome editing are going to be the way of the future. And you're talking about prodrugs and...

2:50:28ChimeraYou know, they're starting to do that already with CBD. I know Raphael Mishulam's group made a fluorinated CBD compound, it's like HU-747, or, no, HU-474. And that's essentially what they're doing. They take these cannabinoids and then they do chemistry on them and create other molecules. That's typically what, you know, private industry does is because you can't patent the, you can patent the use of natural compounds, but you can't patent the natural compound.

2:51:00ChimeraExactly. So what they do is they try to tweak the molecule a little bit so that it can be proprietary, and then they benefit that. And, you know, the CBD, chlorinated CBD, HU, what is it, 474, it's apparently got some pretty crazy activity. It's like 10 times more potent than CBD, so maybe it'll have a benefit. Who knows?

2:51:21Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, it's non-natural. I mean, it's completely synthetic. These are like these AQ analogs that have the two methyl groups, right, alpha to the benzene ring, and yeah, those are completely non-natural, and yeah, when you fluorinate that, you completely change its log P, and its log P is the partition coefficient between an octanol and water, which has a lot to do with how readily it permeates membranes, and yeah, man, you could start making all kinds of Crazy synthetic analogs.

2:51:53Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd I know a lot of people are probably like, oh man, that's evil and you shouldn't be doing any of that shit. But I'm interested in kind of like a Sasha Shulgin kind of way to look at how you could make improvements on the nucleus itself and how you can do synthetic chemistry. And all these methods exist to basically improve upon the activity. In particular, trying to get...

2:52:20Dr Mark ScialdoneThese are active formulations that can pass the blood-brain barrier and be targeted selectively at solid tumors.

2:52:28HoratioDr. Well, Mark, coconut oil combination versus just wiping on your teeth is a form of chemistry. It's just a more homegrown form of chemistry. I wanted to get a question off before we leave the topic. Do you guys think that in the primorial kind of genetics of cannabis that there is, like you could see like how you said myrcene comes from the indicas and you'll always find limonene with the sativas.

2:52:56HoratioThose terpenes are also chemistry wise very available to turn into other things. I mean even just in their degradation. Are there like those markers that certain terpenes are linked with certain lines of primorial cannabis that everything else is steed out of? Because even if it was just the limonene and myrcene strain, every time cannabis puts out a different ratio of those, you get a different high. If it was the same THC over and over again, just as like one variable changing.

2:53:25HoratioSo when it goes back, like you basically blame the myrcene influx and... This goes to my third question, how closely will we have to tie with traditional medicine when it comes to essential oils because all the information matches. People have been using myrcene without ever knowing that if you paired it with THC you get a much greater effect for therapeutic Thank you for joining us.

2:54:06HoratioWe need to look more at the diversity in cannabis.

2:54:38SpeakerMyrcene may have been brought in from the Afghan side or not. Myrcene's found in humulus. It's one of the primary terpenes in the close relative to cannabis. It's certainly found in hemp. I think if we look a lot harder at the narrow leaf drug varieties, we're going to find a lot more of it. The genes got stacked somehow, and there's been this influence from From the Afghan side, it's probably also true, but it's not exclusively from that.

2:55:08ChimeraNo, absolutely not. I didn't mean to suggest that, but you're right. All these terps are found in various species, but I think that's one of the, from our, you know, our chemotaxic surveys of various markets like California, we've seen all the different types of terpene profiles that exist, and it's like you do have, I mean, Berry White, for example, is a high laminate variety with very little other things.

2:55:31ChimeraYou know, terpenile, train wreck is high terpenile. So these different terp profiles do exist. And I think they probably exist in all the populations. It's just that the frequency of those alleles, the frequencies of those genes is different based on human selection and environmental selection. And, you know, the only way to really find things is to look for them with the right equipment. And until about five, ten years ago, nobody really was doing this kind of survey.

2:56:01ChimeraI mean, you know, Hillig looked at a few populations and they grew at U Indiana and Bloomington and did all that stuff, but meanwhile, back at the farm, you know, the world goes on of cannabis and people are growing all these different varieties of everywhere and only now are we starting to look at those varieties and say, oh, hey, look, this is one of this type, this is a terpenoline type, this is a limonene dominant type, this one's I am beta-caryophyllene, and it's why I think we need, it's one of the reasons we need to re-approach what is a variety, you know.

2:56:34ChimeraAnd the phylos work is something that's really interesting because it's starting to say, hey, look, all the purples group into one cluster, and the cushions group into another cluster, and the CBD-dominant varieties group into another cluster, and train wreck and jack group into a cluster. And it's like maybe we can start another way of looking at it, you know?

2:56:59HoratioI guess because I'm chasing the 90s strains that seem to have these lopsided terpene profiles that... Carry through medicinally successfully. Whether I like train wreck or not, I know I come across a certain person, and I know they're needed, and I know I'm going to have to get it again. And I know when I come across a train wreck, I'm like, it doesn't have the terps that's going to help them.

2:57:22HoratioIt's terp-less train wreck, or... And I had another question. How much of cannabis is unexpressed? Because when I see how easily a grower can get a plant to unexpressed what I came for, which another grower can consistently produce, it starts to make me feel like it loses its cultivar. Without the terpenes, it loses its cultivar and it becomes more of a profile of basic cannabinoids, which can be totally invaluable.

2:57:49ChimeraAre you looking at GC data or are you going by your nose?

2:57:52HoratioWell, if I'm going by my nose, I'm going by a part of my brain that lights up. Not really like who I think.

2:58:00ChimeraYou're a chemist, so you know about molecules. I mean, you do chemistry. You're doing extractions. You're doing chemistry. You know that things change and some things come to the forefront if you use a particular solvent or pressure or temperature or whatever your rig is for doing extractions, right?

2:58:16HoratioWell, the reason I bring it up is because I extracted terpenes before all those processes, so I can look at something and go, heh, he gave me six different pounds, and three of these pounds are missing that rose. I wonder how he lost just the rose between these two. I know he grows six plants around one light, so I got like I... You don't basically get a GC when you get to buy in the field.

2:58:39HoratioYou have a nose, you have an eye, you have... This doesn't look like the plant expression I'm familiar with. Maybe I should go with it, maybe I shouldn't. But when I find results in the patients, like way down the line, I find I get the best results when I achieve consistency of certain expressions. So when you bring up train wreck, which anybody in the audience who knows me knows personally...

2:59:04HoratioThat terp up, I can't say it right now because my mouth is dry, terpinoline content. I know it. They know it. They don't even know why they know it. They smell the dab and they're like, I think this is going to go good for my brain. And they may have head issues, but I see its consistency. Then if I look up that terp and I find it in other plants, I'm like, oh shit, they've been making this plant stew for 100 years.

2:59:29HoratioNo wonder, paired with cannabinoids, it's doing such wonders in cannabis. But That's kind of why I'm still chasing the old school strains because concentrates have come but I don't get the same high. No matter how strong this stuff is getting, I don't put on a two hour album and never take another toke. It doesn't happen.

2:59:48ChimeraThere's two things that are going on there. One of them you're essentially talking about terpene profile and making that information available to customers or patients. I think that's really where you're going and I think that's why that lab report that SC is using the Phytofax is pretty cool.

3:00:06ChimeraIn the future, you won't have to judge by your nose. You'll know when you go to buy your flowers that this jack has 5.5 milligrams of terpenylene or whatever.

3:00:18ChimeraSo I think that's coming in the future. The other issue is when you talk about extracts, a lot of people don't realize that when you make an extract, because of the different volatility and boiling points of the terps, especially the monoterps, They start boiling off at like 30, 40 degrees Celsius and you get up to like 60, most of the monoterps are gone and then you're left with this mash mix of, you know, this type of extract which is, it was really nice resin that was done with a 200 proof ethanol extract but it was boiled off so when the alcohol was boiled off at like 80, 85 degrees Celsius, all the monoterps were already gone.

3:00:59ChimeraAnd so it's nice and clean and strong, but it's like not very colorful.

3:01:04HoratioThat's what I mean. It's like it's lost its cultivar. It's just a different thing.

3:01:08ChimeraThat's one of the things that extraction artists, if you want to go there, you know, the real thing about an extract, and it's what's so nice about the dry sifter, the bubble, is you don't really change the profile from flower to extract. Whereas a lot of these other techniques, you know, even BHO, when you're vacuuming off the terps, when you're vacuuming off the butane, you're pulling out terps.

3:01:40ChimeraOkay, so you change the profile, you lose some of the monoterps and the good flavors, so it's something to be aware of.

3:01:47HoratioLast question. Now you mentioned very long ago at the start, you guys had pulled, you were studying and you pulled multiple bags of bubble. Did you find a keynote difference? Because I can smell what I smelled in the bag on one train in the 45U and then get a different profile in the 70, like basically some terpenes as they progress, as the trichome progresses in size. Thank you for watching.

3:02:32HoratioThree inches tall, if I smell a bag, I'm satisfied. If I don't smell a bag, I just throw it away. I don't even bother worrying about growth habits. So I kind of look at, well, what kind of trichomes are those? They're clearly not the kind I can harvest, and they're holding my whole decision base. So that's a profile that's not going to potentially be in the 70U head.

3:02:53HoratioDid you guys see any unique markers within the progression of Headside?

3:02:58ChimeraWe haven't done serial... Uh, serial separations of, you know, 25, 45, 70, 93, 91, 20, and then GC lab testing them all. It's just, that's not what the focus is for us. But you could theoretically do it, but, um, I can't, I can't answer that question. On one note, though, I'll tell you one thing. Um, you're talking about selecting for stock trichomes versus sessile trichomes, and, uh, There's a patent from GW Pharmaceuticals on the production of CBC, cannabichromine, and that seems to be produced in the Sessile trichomes and not the stock trichomes.

3:03:38ChimeraSo it's like, just so you're aware, when you make that kind of selection, I know you're heavily selecting on terps, But you're also selecting away from something else when you do that, right?

3:03:49Dr Mark ScialdoneIs there a synthase that's associated with that? I'm sorry? Is there a synthase that's associated with that? UBC acid? Making CBC?

3:04:00ChimeraYeah, it must be because it's enzyme-based, but I don't think that they've sequenced it yet.

3:04:05HoratioNo, you're exactly right. I'm literally, my theory is because of the way everyone else makes selections, if I simply go in the other direction, I'll also have the potential for a different profile. Because when I get that ten seed pack and nine plants look the same, smell the same, and one completely is different, I start from there, whether it's one in ten or one in a hundred thousand, I'm just looking for something that is an anomaly.

3:04:31HoratioAnd if I pick that up by terpenes, it's literally in a search for what everyone else is not selecting for. But I don't have a goal intention other than always head away from the masses.

3:04:44ChimeraYeah, well I think it's like I said earlier, you know, do what works for you. Select what you like. It doesn't do us any good if everybody grows Purple Kush or everybody grows OG or everybody grows one thing. You know, like, I think the variety is the beauty and If you're making selections, select what works for you. Select what you like.

3:05:06HoratioWell, obviously, I'd like strong terpene profiles because I'm hoping that if the only missing element is low cannabinoids, that can be worked out. But getting unique terpene profiles to start looking at other things cannabis can work on, that's what seems to be hard. In my region, I'm still stuck on the same five commercial strains reasonably being available. And then everything exotic is either super high price or grown improperly.

3:05:33HoratioSo that's kind of why I'm like, well, if I could just get terpenes that are produced heavily in a seedling and I choose for that, everything else that comes down the road is a bonus, but this is a way to get away from typical practices that... Cannabis does a lot of wonderful things, but there's a lot I don't see it doing. So that's kind of why, even if I'm avoiding one potential cannabinoid, maybe I'll pick up another just by that one practice.

3:06:00HoratioJust like the guys who don't clean their hands during trim put a whole bunch of doodoo E. coli into the system.

3:06:09BubblemanYeah.

3:06:13BubblemanThat's just nasty.

3:06:16ChimeraYeah. Unfortunate reality, isn't it? And again, you don't know until you look what's going on. That's part of this black market thing that has happened, Prohibition, over the last year is they've put the production of this product into the hands of people that are focused. Also, you know, like Todd and everyone else that's growing and you're doing it for love, but there's also a lot of people that are doing it for money and they don't have Thank you for watching.

3:06:54Speaker10, 15 years, especially since 2015 in California, the market has been pulled out from under them. An entire middleman has been created that has become fatter and more politically protected and makes a bigger profit now. Because, for instance, I mean it like this. Back in the early 90s, Growers got $4,800 a pound for something that at $400 an ounce was $6,400 a pound. So there was a $2,000 up if you would.

3:07:23SpeakerWell, people are still paying $50 an eighth and $400 an ounce incense. But the price of pot has plummeted to between $1,000 and $2,000 a pound. And who's making all that money is the retailers now. And the retailers are really going to have to lean back because This is really, I believe cannabis should have a much more realiztic profit potential that right now doesn't exist. End users haven't seen really a lower price point compared to what it should be, but growers have seen basically the profiting of their product go down, and we've seen almost a race to the bottom, I would say, in some ways, because people don't get paid for the care and the cautions they used to put into their herb, where they were proud of their herb, they grew herbs so carefully, and You know, the market has to get readjusted to regulation or we're not going to be able to have people we trust going in and inspecting gardens and being able to inspect end products so we know that what people are putting out is consistent.

3:08:35ChimeraThat race to the bottom ain't over yet. You know, when it's grown in the Central Valley, it's going to be $100 a pound. It's not going to be $100 a pound or whatever it is.

3:08:45SpeakerYou know, I look forward to the day that it's pennies on the ground. You know, people think I'm crazy for saying that. Someone mocked me for saying there was vegetables that cost pennies on the pound, and then I put a list up in Astrich, and then, you know, there are plenty. You know, and I think cannabis is going to be something that could well become worthless in comparison to what it is now, because if you give everyone the right to grow it, It'll be like tomatoes.

3:09:08SpeakerYou can grow them, but you're not really going to make much money getting a stand going on the side of the road and competing with Whole Foods.

3:09:16ChimeraIt's one of the really good things about California. I mean, think of Prop 19. The growers shut it down. You know, because they didn't want to stop, they didn't want to stop making money on it. And it's, I'm really interested.

3:09:29SpeakerI don't, I think that perspective's a bit askew. I worked on it. You know, we didn't get support of Trinity County, Humboldt County, Mendocino County, but they account for less than a quarter of a percent of our voting pool. And if they'd all passed it, our percentage points wouldn't have changed at all on the exit. So, their support would have been nice, but you actually saw profits overcome, and in some ways, ethics, because...

3:09:52SpeakerYou know, we thought they would have always been behind changing it, but realiztically, a lot of the people that have moved up there now aren't moved up there to make money, and they want to cash in, and they don't support the laws changing and the profits going down. And we also saw a lot of doctors writing notes telling their patients that their medical rights would be eroded, which was an outright lie.

3:10:13SpeakerIf we pass adult use, it solidifies medical use. There's no way you can take away a constitutional right of a sick person if someone 21 and over has access to weed. The other thing we saw was pot clubs actually putting fucking do not vote on yes on 19 into the bags that they were selling because they don't want to see competition across the street. They don't want to see the pot prices fucking drop because you know what they're making tons of money right now and they love it.

3:10:40SpeakerThey love it. So we saw hypocrisy literally all over the place from growers to doctors to pot clubs.

3:10:47ChimeraThe price of weed in the United States blows me away for the most part. I know Colorado's come down a lot, but, I mean, you still see $50, $55 aids in California dispensaries, and it's just, wow, you don't see that up here. But, I mean, it's super nice. The top, top grade is probably the best around in the world. Like, it definitely, the top, top flowers are the best flowers in the world.

3:11:08ChimeraThat I've seen.

3:11:09SpeakerIt's funny that you say that. I mean, there is stuff I see that it's weird, but I'm glad, because I'm a product of the old $400 an ounce. Like back when you were on a dead tour in the early 90s, you know, you could get some blueberries or something, you'd gladly fork over the money. And like, I see stuff now in California that really is spectacular. I love it.

3:11:29SpeakerAnd I do happily, you know, get it from people. And, you know, but the prices are dropping and I look forward to them dropping more. And, you know, I've already... You know, you're going to see people that want to protect. When I hear people say we have to protect the small-time grower, all I really hear, the translation that goes on in my head is we've got to keep the profits up.

3:11:49SpeakerAnd I can't stand it. I'm like, sorry.

3:11:51ChimeraWell, it's unfortunate that that's what it is. I mean, it's two things. It's keeping the profits up, but it's also keeping a way of life around. And the reality is, is agricultural crops are not grown in the mountains in Mendocino or Humboldt. They're not. There's no water there. It's not...

3:12:09ChimeraIt's not the right environment to do agriculture.

3:12:12SpeakerI totally agree with you. It's just been the market, this artificial profit profile that's been allowing this to happen. Once we have greenhouses full of cannabis and computer controlled environments and it's super great and it's in big fluffy sacks, it's going to change the scope of cannabis. There's no question and we cannot protect You know, mom and pop growers, they can still grow it, but I hate to say it, they're going to have to have jobs and shit because it's not going to be their mortgage anymore.

3:12:40ChimeraIt's only big money that can buy big fancy greenhouses on multi-million dollar land and put up the labor and the capital and everything, all that kind of stuff. It's not set up these big farms. So it's like right there, you're... De-selecting the mom and pops, and you're selecting for the big guys with money.

3:13:01SpeakerTo a degree, no, though. I say it like it's inevitable. You look at Jack Daniels. I read that they put out 119 million bottles annually. They've got a 1,700-acre plant, and they just rock it 24-7. They have a right to do that. People have Jack Daniels on every shelf and every bar. It's a staple. Why can't that happen with cannabis? Why can't growers up wherever they are or wherever they are be able to duplicate something in equality like we see with JD?

3:13:34SpeakerI mean, and if they do it and they do it well, hey, maybe their stuff will be on every bar in the world too. That would be quite the accomplishment.

3:13:42ChimeraAnd they can, but you know, it's the same. You look at all these other industries. It's economy of scale. There's cat craft brewers and there's like Anheuser-Busch. You know, and it's like, the bigger you get, the cheaper the price is to produce it, the more money you make. And it's like, sure, there's always going to be the little guy that's doing it right on a small scale and producing extremely good quality, or better quality, and they'll have a boutique market.

3:14:04ChimeraIt's the same with wine, it's the same with beer, it's the same with flowers, it's the same with You know, pork, it's the same with beef.

3:14:11SpeakerYou know what, though, when you say it like that, I almost picture it like, you know, the retired guy with the woodworking shop in his basement that makes furniture. It's a hobby. He could go buy furniture cheaper with less effort down the street, but he loves to do it. So you're going to see people that literally boutique grow because they love to do it, and they do it great, and they have particular genetics, and they They keep them going and I think we're going to see this beautiful range of it.

3:14:37SpeakerUnfortunately, I don't think that boutique cannabis will be worth as much, anywhere near as much as it is now. I even think people setting up business plans based on what today's profit levels are crazy because you go five years forward and I think it's an entirely different playing field.

3:14:57Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, of course it is. Same thing happened in the repeal of alcohol prohibition, Todd. I mean, you make the analogy to Jack Daniels. It was the same thing. I mean, look, Kennedys were bootleggers, and they're the ones who came out smiling on the other side of prohibition, right?

3:15:13ChimeraSam told me a story about Kennedys going, they knew when prohibition crashed and the 13th Amendment was passed, that took time, political time, right? And the Kennedys had inside information that it was all happening well before it actually passed.

3:15:29Dr Mark ScialdoneThey went over to Scotland and so... Oh yeah, Joe P totally set it up, yeah.

3:15:35ChimeraThey had the distribution contracts and they had the whiskey in the United States in an unbonded, like an area that they hadn't actually imported it into the country, even though physically it was in the country. And when the 13 minutes passed, they brought in all the whiskey and they made, you know, his sons became president, you know what I mean?

3:15:55SpeakerThey were all ready to go, that's right. Well, you know what? Then what you're inspiring us to talk about then is we should all be, you know, thinking locally and acting globally because really it's about federal prohibition. It's about a bigger scope of this having to change because there was a lot of support in Congress for alcohol prohibition and it turned around because they saw the demonization of what it was doing to society, if you will, how it was hurting society.

3:16:22SpeakerAnd it changed things, and I think we're at that point now. And I think in 2016, that's what we should all be hopeful for, is change on a massive scale for cannabis. And you know what?

3:16:33ChimeraI've said this before, and it's like, Canada now has this legal system, right? Well, or depending on however you look at it. But one thing that it did do is legalize the importation and exportation of cannabis. And So Canada can now ship weed, Canadian companies can now ship cannabis to Colombia or Netherlands or Italy or whatever, Germany, whatever country wants to do business with them. And the United States federal government is really screwing American cannabis companies that are starting to get really good quality or really good production.

3:17:11ChimeraAnd I think one of the things that might help bring this down is...

3:17:17Chimerais financial interests that lobby the American government to get rid of federal prohibition because as soon as that happens, the United States is going to control the cannabis market in the world. We don't drink, I mean, sure, there's some Canadian wine that's produced, but people up here drink California, you know, Not, what is it, Zinfandel is, you know.

3:17:38SpeakerHold on, Seagram's is Canadian, man. And they were like, come and bought Hollywood, if I don't recall, 20 years ago. So, whiskey was very profitable for the Canadians. Oh, for sure. I think Canada will always see good cannabis economy, if you will.

3:17:54ChimeraWe will, but I think, I mean, man, Canada doesn't have the American or the Californian climate where you can produce excellent flowers year round. I mean, sure, we can get in a couple of good crops in the summer or maybe three if you're really organized and pushing it and using blackout curtains and all that stuff, but the reality is California has better sun and, you know, we buy our lettuce and our strawberries from Watsonville, you know, or what are they?

3:18:24ChimeraArtichokes come from Castorville up in British Columbia. Like, that's where we get it, you know.

3:18:28SpeakerWell, let me say, man, it was really nice having you on Hashers today. I hope you join us again all the time. And if next time you're in the Bay, you can come hang out at my house, get high. I'd love to. Thank you very much. You'd be a nice guest any time. And everybody have a happy New Year. Rod's taking me to a Dead & Co. show tonight, so.

3:18:44BubblemanDead & Co. Make sure you puff many joints and blow smoke towards the Vatican. Blow smoke towards John Mayer. It ought to be cool.

3:18:54SpeakerYeah. Hey. Right? Can't get stoned. Have a good one. All right.

3:19:01BubblemanPeace out. Yeah, I'm dead and cold. That'll be fun for him. We never get any good concerts in BC anymore.

3:19:09ChimeraYeah, the Bay Area is pretty spoiled for entertainment and cannabis. Good place to visit. You got to go down.

3:19:18BubblemanGo figure. Yeah, I'm trying to work that out this year. 2016 will be my first year back in the U.S. in, like, since 98. Yeah, I saw that article with you online. Ah, yes, yes. The old, uh... I didn't really realize when I did that interview that it was like, uh, that they were like the Canadian press, that they basically, like, pushed their news stories to, like, every other...

3:19:48BubblemanYou know, quite a few media outlets that feed from the Canadian press. I just thought the Canadian press was the Canadian press, just some random news agency, but they pushed it to a lot of places so it got seen by a lot of people. Hopefully the government will do something about it, you know. I'd personally rather they stop arresting people first and foremost. Like before even worrying about anyone with pardons or whatnot, it's just like stop arresting people for it.

3:20:16BubblemanThat'd be good.

3:20:17ChimeraWell, you know, as far as Canadians go, everybody's kind of like, ooh, we elected the Liberals, now we're going to have legal weed. It's not so cut and dry, you know. They're talking about the stakeholders, and the stakeholders are people like health departments and various promises, which is important, but it's also the police. And it's like, the people really need to make their voice and wants and needs about legalization happen, because...

3:20:45ChimeraYou know, we're at a crucial, crucial time here where we can shape the discussion. And I think we need to be vocal about all that kind of stuff, like the things that we want out of legalization, like removal of restrictions for people that have criminal records. Or like, what about the guys that are in jail? You know what I mean? If we make it this legal system where it's like, okay, you got legal producers and only their weed is legal and, you know, anybody else caught doing whatever faces serious, serious crime.

3:21:17ChimeraI mean, if you're going to legalize it and normalize it, you got to open it up to anybody. And maybe if you have a big criminal past for, I don't know. I don't know. It's a complicated issue. What do you do?

3:21:30Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, I made news this week down in the states that the Obama administration has recommended that the Supreme Court not hear the lawsuit that the neighboring states have against the state of Colorado, which is, again, basically just one of these bullshit kind of things where, you know, and even I wanted to mention this today, and thanks for letting me say it, but... They have these so-called drug checkpoints just as you pass into Utah from Nevada.

3:22:05Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd I think in the western part of Utah, there will be signs on Interstate 80 saying that there's a drug check coming up, a mandatory drug check. And they're really, they're not allowed to do that. They don't do that. But what they do is put those signs up there and they try to steer people who are like, oh my God, there's a drug check coming up. And then they put cops at the exits.

3:22:34Dr Mark ScialdoneLooking for people, you know, not coming to a complete stop or, you know, crossing a line or something like that. And now they have reason to pull you over and that's how they get you in trouble. So there is no mandatory check but they put these signs up which are basically entrapment which gets people all worried and paranoid, starts to get people pulling off at the exits And that's where the police are at the exits.

3:23:01Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's no traffic check along the interstate at all. So again, this type of behavior has just got to stop. States doing, neighboring states and other states basically looking to grab people who are just driving down the road. It's just absolutely ridiculous behavior to think that this is the United States of America. We're behaving like it's The divided states of America.

3:23:31ChimeraAt least that's what the law is like. Our Canadian drug laws are federal. We don't have provincial drug laws. You guys really have this conundrum down there that creates these unique situations.

3:23:50HoratioWhat do you think about the fact that they're talking about... Provinces and the fact that like BC might be our dream situation where they want to jump right to the microbrewery scale. Dispensaries can grow, you know, the worst.

3:24:05Archive SeedsIn Ontario, they're like, no, no, we're conservatives.

3:24:08HoratioAnd they wanted in the government liquor store. Like, it sounds like they're going to break up the federal... You see what I'm saying? Like, BC might want to keep it in BC, and if it's export, it gets taxed. Creating layers of bureaucracy for taxation without, you know, officially doing it. When they say, we don't want weed to be high, but if you want your microbrewery weed to leave BC, you're going to have hell.

3:24:41HoratioLike, that's the kind of...

3:24:48ChimeraYeah, I mean, that's the way alcohol is, right? I mean, I don't know about production, and I don't know, I think that it's kind of all up in the air whether they're talking about production because production might be federally regulated as it is with the MMPR, but they're talking about distribution, and that's the way alcohol is done. You know, they have big breweries in Ontario and wherever else in the country that produce mass amounts, and then they ship it elsewhere, but even in Canada, you can't, I mean, I grew up in Ottawa, so...

3:25:19ChimeraI was right on the line between Ontario and Quebec. In Ontario, the drinking age is 19, but in Quebec, the drinking age is 18, and they also sell beer in corner stores. So you'd go over to, when you're 18, you'd go over to the Quebec side and get your alcohol. And people still do this. I mean, different provinces have different tax rates on alcohol, so maybe driving from New Brunswick to Nova Scotia would save you a few dollars, and Thank you for joining us.

3:26:11Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you for watching.

3:26:21Dr Mark ScialdoneSo basically, Delaware,

3:26:51Dr Mark ScialdoneSells a lot more TVs than Pennsylvania. Delaware is the home of tax-free shopping, man. It's crazy down there. Delaware is actually quite progressive on cannabis. They have a medical program down there, and the dispensaries supposedly are actually providing really good, high-quality cannabis from what I understand. Yeah, Delaware is actually a very, very progressive cannabis state, amazingly so. Delaware is a weird state, man. It's only 10 miles wide, so I think they have like some kind of security complex.

3:27:30Dr Mark ScialdoneThe rest of the states are going to eat them up or something. It just seems like... You don't have to have all the corporations registered there. Yeah, that's because the DuPont family basically made it so the corporation laws are very, very favorable. And so, yeah, you'll see the big yachts down in the Cayman Islands all... Have a Wilmington, Delaware address. Yeah, most corporations do. Yeah, it's some kind of sleazy corporation tax thing there, Mark.

3:28:00Dr Mark ScialdoneI have no idea. Someone probably knows that. Just very easy to incorporate a business, I think.

3:28:09HoratioSo it sounds like Todd's dream of cheap cannabis requires the kind of globalization that always makes your local produce cheaper on the other side of the world than it is in your own town to buy it. Because it sounds like state to state, that's why they put in all of these loopholes. They don't really want California lettuce to come to Canada unless everybody gets paid. Because I see like Oregon seems to be way cheaper for everything, but California, which should have even better sun, is more expensive.

3:28:42ChimeraOregon is also one of the states I think that doesn't have sales tax. I remember traveling through there and it was, you know, you cross from Portland, Oregon to Vancouver, Washington and all of a sudden you'd be paying tax.

3:28:54SpeakerYou're also comparing a regulated, you're comparing a legal market versus a non-profit medical market. Totally two different things. So farmers in California have to go through different types of Mechanisms to get you herb and losing a crop or getting one shut down or having to move a farm is part of the game. And not everybody's getting tags and not everyone's paying those taxes. So that's why it's cheaper.

3:29:26HoratioSo, could the Oregon model be the new buzzword rather than always saying, like, let's follow the Colorado model? I'm like, I don't want to become Colorado. But it seems implementable because I don't remember Oregon being some super sun zone compared to California for the actual, you know, production of the raw content. But they've solved the economics, so now it's 500 bucks.

3:29:49SpeakerYeah, what they did was they've been growing, and my partner was growing there for a long time. Many moons ago. But what happened was the plant size, people used to grow smaller plants and lots more of them. And Oregon got into this 400-gallon, 200-gallon huge plant outside program. And so what happened was that's also, if you look at the Emerald Triangle, North California, you know, that area and South Oregon and Washington area, they're used to growing big, huge plants to keep their counts down.

3:30:24SpeakerAnd that's definitely going to do two things. One, don't look at it as a quality thing being worse because there are farmers that are doing that and they're doing it with hoop houses and LD. They're doing it with greenhouses. They're doing sun-grown, in my opinion, better than a lot of the indoor I've seen and And that's up for debate, but I've seen the hard work that can go into that kind of farming.

3:30:55SpeakerOr the other alternative, what you're seeing a lot of times in these farms in Oregon is you throw your plants out there and you veg them inside, you grow them big, and maybe you aren't doing trellises and maybe you're not doing the hoops and maybe you're not going to the extension of the tees and whatever they're doing. And I see the quality a little bit different. Where it might be just because of the competitive push in that area isn't as big as in California.

3:31:24SpeakerYou've got to remember it's a humongous market. So when people are claiming clean green and they're cultivating and competing against indoor crops in their collectives, they have a lot more competition that's driven them a little bit harder in Oregon. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:32:09SpeakerIt got that sun growing a lot, bro. I'm just telling you. I'm telling you.

3:32:14HoratioOkay, so a critical limit is always going to be some form of supplemental energy. Because BC has California prices, but we don't really have populace over... We have plenty of weed. That's how we supplied the other end of America for all those years. So that's kind of why I'm like, well, BC's weed isn't cheap. Is that just because of the crime laws? Or is it also where mom and pops also group together and start to set price limits?

3:32:45HoratioLike, no, we can't be growing for cheaper than this because I'm buying a bunch of newts that don't do anything.

3:32:50ChimeraPart of it's Canadian dollars, Laz. I mean, The last three, four years have been a bit of an anomaly because the dollar has been roughly at par, but I mean today it's what, 30% down? So that's 30% more on American buyers' money, and I think that really has a huge effect of it. Don't forget too, until like 95 and 96 when Prop 215 came in, it was pretty harsh laws even down in California and Washington, and Rent and the population in Vancouver wasn't what it is now.

3:33:24ChimeraSo you had a lot of American growers coming up to BC and taking up residence on the east side and just banging it out.

3:33:33SpeakerI think that's also key. What you just said there is that, you know, think about the skill level of the growers in California. As they migrate, some of them went to Colorado and then left Colorado. Some of them are in Oregon or Washington. And I'm not trying to take away from the different territories, but Generally, when somebody has 10, 20 years experience growing Sun Grown and they migrate to another location, I think they're going to enhance their surroundings and how they grow their cannabis.

3:34:07SpeakerThere's more people in California versus Oregon. Only recently, Oregon is now on the radar. They bypassed and they're what everyone's looking at right now. I know a lot of people that have migrated from California to Oregon.

3:34:24ChimeraWhen California went off, tons of people flocked to Colorado. And Oregon is just kind of new and it's like a new market with lots of opportunity and less competition. And the regulations seem pretty good as far as new people getting into the business. It's not all locked up, you know. So I think that could be one of the things that's going on.

3:34:50HoratioIt's just, yeah, I mean, in the dark market, neither green or black, I noticed that people started these migratory patterns where I'm like, how do you go from moving to Oregon to moving to Maine? And then I'm like, oh, I see, the price of Maine, and then you keep going back home to Oregon. It seems to sponsor this interstate trade no matter what, because Oregon figures it out, so then you just go to Oregon and buy...

3:35:16HoratioWhat's going on, Fletcher?

3:35:49SpeakerWelcome.

3:35:50Archive SeedsI don't think you can hear us. Hey, what's up? How you doing, bud? Oh, pretty good. Just listening in.

3:36:02BubblemanWell, usually when you come in, you have something to share.

3:36:05Archive SeedsYeah, usually. I don't like wasting people's time or space. You know, to go off what Tony was saying, though, about California's traditional quality versus everywhere else, I mean... You know, 10 years ago, the quality of herb in California was way subpar to Oregon and Washington, in my experience. I mean, you know, OG, I remember in 2005, all my buddies were telling me I should move to LA to go grow OG so I could go get six grand a pound because the OG I was growing up here, I wasn't getting paid for because there wasn't a market for it and there was so little good herb at all in California anywhere.

3:36:43Archive SeedsI mean, in California, I remember On just outdoor, like regular outdoor was $3,200 plus a pound. And that was maybe 2007 or 2008 still. And that wasn't going out of state. That was in state prices. I mean, we had no interest in even exporting really that herb at all because it was $4,000 a pound for indoor in Washington. So, I mean... You know, Oregon and Washington have had a long-standing indoor cultivation group of people, you know, much more so than like Southern California where, you know, for many years it was mainly just import people bringing in stuff.

3:37:23Archive SeedsI mean, everybody I knew 10 years ago that was from Canada, they moved all their weight to LA. All the bikers, all the hells, all of them, all that weight from Vancouver Island, all that went to California. And they're buying up beasters by the truckload, and I mean, we couldn't even sell beasters here 10 years ago. So, you know, I think it's who you know, where you are, and how many growers you know.

3:37:48Archive SeedsIt's more dependent upon the quality than your location.

3:37:52SpeakerYeah, I was talking about outdoor and the price and why the prices were the way they were as far as the byproducts of Oregon versus California. That's what sparked it. I wasn't comparing indoor. Indoor is, indoor you can find Anywhere. You've got the right grower, right genetics. He could be in Minnesota. He could be anywhere.

3:38:13Archive SeedsI mean, even all the guys I know in Oregon over the last 10 years that are in Southern Oregon, Medford, and all those areas, they move all their weight to California. All that weight goes to California. I mean, I knew tons of guys that would drive all that shit down from Oregon all the way down to L.A. to get rid of it. I mean, that was the M.O.

3:38:32Archive Seedsbecause... They had good quality and all the shops in L.A. were willing to pay for it. I had a friend that lived 30 minutes outside of Eugene that used to drive to L.A. once every two months just to get rid of all his product because it was so much easier. There was so little good product in California, indoor or outdoor or light depth.

3:38:52BubblemanPer capita, you should say. There's a lot of good herb, but there's so many fucking people. Exactly. You just can't even really get a chance to see any of the killer, killer, killer.

3:39:04Archive SeedsRight. By the time that 10 pounds goes out, it's already smoked in California. You're talking a population size that's 10 times the size of the state next to it. I'd say, traditionally, California had, as a percentage of the population, much less Then I saw in other states, you know, I knew a lot more growers in Oregon and stuff than I did in SoCal. I mean, everybody back then used to try and get out of SoCal because you'd get busted, period.

3:39:34Archive SeedsYou know, you try and set something up. I mean, even a year before I moved to L.A., I had a friend that opened a warehouse in South Central and got raided, and that was like 2010. So, I mean, it's, you know, it wasn't free for all. It wasn't all good, and it wasn't... You know, risk-free in California, even up until just still a few years ago, I mean, it wasn't... People, like Tony was saying, you couldn't just stay in one place and keep operating.

3:40:01Archive SeedsYou know, you had to jump around a lot in California, and that made prices really high. It wasn't until recently that I think we've really seen prices stabilize down there.

3:40:14SpeakerYeah, I also think that demand, maybe it just has to do with that. There's just way more population and demanding people In patients in California, so, you know, is it, you know, what I see in Oregon is there's a chance of overgrowth, you know, and that's what's happened before is there's not the population and the foot traffic, but now maybe with this, you know, being recreational or whatever, they will draw it.

3:40:40Etienne FontanA chance, a chance, the doctor said.

3:40:42SpeakerNo, it's okay, sorry.

3:40:46Archive SeedsBert, were you saying overproduction? Because one thing that's interesting, and You know, this is something we see with pretty much almost every agricultural crop is that you either have subsidies, farmers unions, or, you know, where local farmers come together like a union and determine what the price of their product's going to be or the price of their crop and whether or not they should or shouldn't grow these things every year.

3:41:09Archive SeedsAnd I think that's going to happen with weed, too. I mean, and one thing that the state can do, you know, you can't really artificially increase the price of, Thanks for watching.

3:41:43Archive SeedsIt's somewhat of a means of controlling the supply, just like they did up here in Washington, limiting it to, I think they finalized at like 8 million square feet or something like that for the whole state.

3:41:56ChimeraThat, I'm sure that'll be updated as things go on. I mean, aren't they changing Washington after two years? Like, they said this is the system for two years and then they'll make adjustments as necessary?

3:42:06Archive SeedsWell, and they did that. It was actually originally two million square feet. Then they upped it to six or eight million square feet so as to give everybody that applied an opportunity to gain square footage. And then I think maybe three months ago they lifted the cap from a three-quarters limit or a two-thirds limit, which... Like the original Max Indoor was a 30,000 square foot. They capped that down to 21.

3:42:29Archive SeedsThey lifted those bands again maybe three months ago going from 21,000 to 30,000 for a Tier 3 and 2 to 5,000 for a Tier 1.

3:42:37ChimeraI think most of the issues that you're talking about are essentially prohibition problems. I mean you're talking across the state lines because prices are better or demand is different or whatever.

3:42:49Archive SeedsI'm talking about the state controlling The only way that you guys are getting...

3:43:23ChimeraLegal cannabis in the United States is through state initiatives and they happen at different times so you create different systems but inevitably what's going to happen is there will be federal legalization in the United States because the federal government is not going to keep these big cannabis companies out of international markets. It would be insane to do that and that's just, I mean, the United States wants to do trade.

3:43:49ChimeraEverybody wants to do trade. Thank you so much.

3:44:06ChimeraCalifornia feeds New York. California cannabis feeds New York State. So there already is this international trade that goes on. I think what's going to happen, sorry, this interstate trade that goes on, I think what's going to happen is that eventually the governments are going to want pieces of that pie and they're going to want to give the rights of their respective companies to do business that way.

3:44:30Archive SeedsRight. Totally agree. But I think what All of that creates a significant hurdle in that in between who's selling it and who's buying it in terms of what state and where it's coming from and where it's going to. Part of the problem is the regulations in every single state are becoming different. Not only that, but the pesticide regulations which are enforced by the FDA, which is a federal bureau, and they don't want to do testing on pesticides.

3:44:58Archive SeedsAll these different chemicals or pesticides or agro chems or whatever it is you may be using to register it for use on cannabis. Now there may be ways around that with general gardening use permits and things like that which I've heard some pesticide manufacturers are trying to do to get around Colorado's issues with pesticides right now. For example, Eagle 20, the reason it currently can't be used out there is because of how it's classified and if they reclassify the product You know, they may be able to use it, but if one state allows the use of one product and the other one doesn't, how does that affect the product that would potentially be exported?

3:45:40ChimeraI think that states can set the allowable residual concentrations, but it was my understanding that it was the EPA that says you can use this chemical for this crop.

3:45:54Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, okay, let me provide some guidance here. This is my area of expertise. So the EPA under law, if you sell a, so FIFRA stands for fungicide, insecticide, fungicide, FIFRA, fungicide, insecticide, what's the other one? Rodenticide is in there, that's the R in FIFRA. And the A in FIFRA is act. So if you sell something on U.S. soil, you have to have a registration for the active ingredient.

3:46:29Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd the active ingredient is typically registered by the manufacturer. So when you're a manufacturer of an active ingredient, first of all, you have to discover an active ingredient. Again, a lot of chemicals kill bugs, so what they have to basically do is find a chemical that kills bugs or controls Some agrochemical controllable tests. And then conduct all kinds of tests, especially residual tests and environmental fate tests so they know what happens when the stuff runs off the plant and all that.

3:47:06Dr Mark ScialdoneSo once all those tests are done and the company has all the information that says that it's safe and effective, And that they could actually make it. It could actually be produced. And that they could actually make a profit doing all this. They will register. And it costs somewhere between $10 to even upwards to $100 million to get an EPA registration for an active ingredient. And it could take, because you have to do sometimes...

3:47:37Dr Mark Scialdonegenerational toxicity where you inoculate like a mother of like a guinea pig and then that guinea pig has to have offspring and they have to look for residuals in the offspring of the mom so you have to do generational tox studies and whenever you do studies on an animal you don't just do one animal you do ten animals at a time That's why I was asking before about how many replicates are in the tests that are run for cannabis because you have to have a really statistically robust set to be able to make hard fact conclusions on A, does it work, and B, is it safe and is it effective.

3:48:21Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so once all that information is known, then a company, and again this is a big company like Bayer, Dow, DuPont. The company will then register that by taking that information, which they've already invested tens of millions of dollars in obtaining, bring that information to the EPA, and then the EPA has an expert panel that looks at that information and decides whether or not they should register.

3:48:48Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd once they register the active ingredient, then the company who's paid all that money to get that stuff registered owns that registration. And the registration of like Eagle 20, for example, I think is owned by Dow. I think it was actually discovered originally by Syngenta, but these big companies cross-license each other's active ingredients and co-formulate and do all kinds of, you know, kinds of work like that.

3:49:19Dr Mark ScialdoneBut anyway, long story short, the point is that the EPA does register They're the agency within the United States government that affects the environmental protection of chemical insults to its citizens and so views anything like a rodenticide or a fungicide or an insecticide Thank you for joining us.

3:50:10Dr Mark ScialdoneHave pharmaceutical companies like there have looked to do the end around on the cannabis plant by developing their own CB1 agonists and antagonists that are not plant-based. These are all heterocycles that look like drugs. They have pharmacokineticists that just happen to bind to the CB1 and CB2 receptors, and that's all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, you're asking those same companies to basically say, please pay for the toxicity tests that need to be run in order to register this active ingredient for use in cannabis.

3:50:46Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd I just think that they're just too conservative to do it. And the smaller companies may not have the resources to be able to basically deliver the package to the EPA, which is basically going to be really a very, very expensive registration package. Well, they can't do these studies yet because of the federal law, right? Right. No, no, no. You can do them if you have a Schedule I license.

3:51:13Dr Mark ScialdoneSo with a Schedule I license... You can get all of that kind of wave, but this whole kind of brings up the point.

3:51:22ChimeraBut they're not getting those licenses though, right?

3:51:24Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. The point is, and so I'm working actually with two labs that are actually going through the process to get Schedule 1 licenses just as the exercise to show how much fucking red tape there is in getting it. It's just bullshit. But let me just say one thing farther from this, which is that If you are basically doing any kind of work with anything that's derived from cannabis, it falls under Schedule 1 licensing or the Schedule 1 definition in the Controlled Dangerous Substance Act.

3:51:59Dr Mark ScialdoneSo again, if you look at the government, which is the Department of Health and Human Services holds a patent That actually is the, what, very famous patent 663307 blah blah blah whatever on neuroprotectant agents. Well basically what it says is that the government itself can hold a patent and a patent by definition has to be Patent something that's useful. There has to be a demonstrated utility. If it doesn't demonstrate utility, it can't be patented.

3:52:36Dr Mark ScialdoneSo the fact that the USPO, which is the US Patent and Trade Organization, has examined this patent and has granted it utility, they basically are saying that cannabis is useful. The Schedule 1 listing is just inconsistent with With saying that it's useful. So I mean, this is basically where we need to legally unravel the federal government's position on cannabis prohibition is that they're speaking out of both sides of their mouth and saying that we could patent it because it's useful, but it can't be useful because it's on Schedule 1 by definition.

3:53:19Dr Mark ScialdoneSo the Schedule 1 listing is completely inconsistent with being able to patent its utility, right? Yeah. It's another one of those. It's a cruel joke on us. And the fact is that we pay for the salaries. I'm an American taxpayer. My tax dollars have paid for the inventors on that patent. We paid for the attorneys, which were high-priced Washington, D.C. patent attorneys, which cost upward of $1,000 an hour.

3:53:51Dr Mark ScialdoneWe paid for the prosecution of that patent, which is now owned, the assignee of the patent is the Department of Health and Human Services, whose charter is basically to improve the life of Americans. So we own, the American taxpayer basically owns that patent. Which is in direct conflict with Schedule 1 listing. And we brought this to the attention of a standing congressman a year and a half ago.

3:54:22Dr Mark ScialdoneIt was my first time ever visiting a congressman. And we brought it to their attention. And there is now, again, a very good groundswell of information to say that the Schedule 1 listing has got to change. And I do believe that President Obama will do this on the way out. Where his legacy will basically be the black man that legalized the nugget. Go. I thought that it was about CBD and that CBD isn't scheduled.

3:54:57Dr Mark ScialdoneAnything derived from the cannabis plant, any resin, anything derived from the cannabis plant, by definition, falls under the CSA. Terpenes, anything derived from the cannabis plant.

3:55:10SpeakerDr. Hey, Mark, you said that last time, and I have a copy of the CSA and the federal laws and three lawyers that provided it. Specifically, show me the language that says terpenes, because phytocannabinoids and cannabinoids and And things derived from cannabis, yes. Anything derived from cannabis.

3:55:29ChimeraShow me the word versus anything. I don't think that's true because there's people that are importing like pails of... It's quantum legal.

3:55:57ChimeraIt's really in a quasi-legal kind of thing. My understanding was that CBD was restricted under the Analog Act, but it's actually not written into your law, whereas the Canadian law, CBD is actually listed as a Schedule II substance, and I'm not sure that it is in the States, but I don't know, so I'm kind of deferring to you guys that are Americans on that one.

3:56:18Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, Tony, the actual language says resin-derived, anything derived from the resin or... I'm not sure it uses the word anything, but I think it says compounds or materials derived from. Yeah, I don't, I mean, it's easy.

3:56:35SpeakerWe can pull it up right now. We can pull it up right now. I actually have it.

3:56:38ChimeraBasil produces osamine and limonene, and there's all these different plants that produce terps. So, I mean, somebody might be able to take that legal opinion that that's the way it is, but I don't know if it's so set in the law that anything that's produced by the cannabis plant is illegal. Because there's tons of stuff that the cannabis plant produces that other plants produce.

3:56:59Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, I mean... Yeah, I mean, we had this discussion on infinitum here on Hash Church, right, Mark? I don't know that, again, the legal interpretation of the Controlled Dangerous Substance Act was basically to limit the... Production of anything that's derived from cannabis. And again, I don't know that they use the word anything, but that was basically the intent. And when you go and you look at the laundry list of stuff there, yeah, they talk about, you know, resin and everything that you would derive from the plant.

3:57:37Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd I know that this provision in the farm bill did, again, get that CBD magic level of anything below 0.3%.

3:57:48Dr Mark ScialdoneI believe that that's in the plant, not in the oil. The dirty secret is that when you go to extract the oil, the amount of THC goes up, right?

3:57:57ChimeraThere's a lot about the amount that's allowable in food products also because I know that the United States imports in huge amounts hemp seed from Canada and there's an allowable limit of THC. That is set in some regulation somewhere, and again, I'm not an expert on any of that kind of stuff, so I don't know. But the reality of the fact is that people are importing huge amounts of CBD paste and refining it for CBD products sold, like even on Amazon.com, like interstate.

3:58:25ChimeraAnd so, whether it's the letter of the law or they're allowing it to happen in practice, it's going on. You know, I mean, even the Kentucky Hemp Farmers Thank you for watching.

3:58:58ChimeraLike you were talking FIFRA, right? I mean, FIFRA is one thing. Isn't that the registration? But there's also like use per crop and I don't know if the FDA is involved in it, but there's different levels of organization.

3:59:10Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, absolutely. So once you get the active ingredient, then you have to register actually the different formulations. And so like if you look at like any bottle of, I don't know, some type of insecticide that's sold at like Home Depot or Lowe's, you'll see that there's an active ingredient. But that active ingredient is only there an exceedingly small amount. Like these pyrethroids are typically active at like 1%.

3:59:35Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, less than that. So then there's all this other crap in there which is typically like adjuvants and surfactants and other things to keep the formulation happy. That formulation in itself has to be registered. And often it's a different company that licenses the active ingredient registration to now use in their product. Like Scott's is a perfect example. Scott's licenses a lot of active ingredients from these other companies to put in their product because they're the products that you buy when you go to the store.

4:00:12Dr Mark ScialdoneBut the fact is, again, there's a whole other round of testing and environmental testing and tox testing that has to be done on the formulation itself. So yeah, the active ingredient is only one part of the climb. The rest of it, well, what's that formulation? What are the other ingredients?

4:00:33SpeakerSorry, it's Mark's mic. I posted in our little chat, because this debate came up. So I posted what the Controlled Substance Act actually defines. Marijuana and its cannabinoids. Pure Delta-9 is also listed as Schedule 3 for limited uses under the trademark of Marinol. Ballot measures in several states such as Colorado, Washington, Oregon, and others have made allowances for recreational medical use of marijuana and or have decriminalized possessions of small amounts of marijuana.

4:01:09SpeakerSuch measures operate only on state levels and have no effect on federal law. Despite such ballot measures and multiple studies showing medicinal benefits, marijuana never remains a Schedule I effective across the U.S. The drug or other substance has a high potential. So this is what they consider Schedule I drugs. It's a drug or other substance that has high potential for abuse. The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in the treatment in the United States.

4:01:40SpeakerThere is a lack of acceptance safety for the use of this drug or substances under medical supervision. So terpenes are produced ambiguously throughout nature in countless plant species, prevalent in fruits, vegetables, herbs, spices, and other botanicals. Terpenes can be used as dilutants, aromatherapy, flavoring, food additive, applied topically. Terpenes are common ingredients in the human diet and have generally been recognized as safe to consume by the U.S.

4:02:10SpeakerFood and Drug Administration. What they're doing with the fine lines that you were talking about is if you derive hemp from flowers, not from seed and from stalk, with inside the United States, you are now subject to a controlled substance because it's cannabinoids, even CBD. So there's different acts and bills outside of the United States that allows China to produce a hemp paste We're a hemp product that's coming from flowers and or stock and seed.

4:02:46SpeakerMost people are using the marketing and their websites and all of their literature as hemp CBD derived from stock and seed so that they're not deriving it from the flowers. So what Mark is saying is true in the sense that if you're deriving compounds and those compounds are cannabinoids of any sort, they fit into a controlled substance, one. And so terpenes on themselves, we can recreate all of these terpenes with hops, with lavender, with eucalyptus, with all kinds of other plants.

4:03:20SpeakerSo what happens is this falls into a very unique and gray area in the sense that if I'm presenting terpenes in their full spectrum, they're just terpenes. There's no cannabinoids and there's no THC. So that is a significant difference. There's no level of THC, zero, 0.0. There's no level of cannabinoids, 0.0. So they're terpenes. They're found in nature. They're approved by the FDA. They're in everything.

4:03:54ChimeraWe eat them.

4:03:59ChimeraSo despite such ballot measures and multiple studies showing medicinal benefits, marijuana nevertheless remains on Schedule 1. And in the United States, you guys have this interesting thing where marijuana is a term that includes anything produced by the plant, but it also includes like JWH compounds and spice. They are technically considered marijuana.

4:04:22Dr Mark ScialdoneThe JWH compounds cannot be made from cannabis. I know what you mean. They fall into the synthetic cannabinoids.

4:04:31ChimeraBut technically, spice is considered marijuana legally. So what I'm saying, the use of the word marijuana, it encompasses this huge variety of things that are not necessarily cannabis related, including cannabinoids. And despite what this thing says... I still got to say, put it out there, the fact remains that despite what Tony just said and posted on our little chat here, that companies are still bringing in CBD paste from China and Czech Republic as like hemp fruit or hemp paste.

4:05:09ChimeraAnd I know because I know people that were importing it, they had, it was tested by the DEA. And They looked specifically for THC. They were not looking at CBD because the stuff was like 20-30% CBD paste, right? And they let it in. And they continue to let it in and it continues to be sold to this day. You can go on Amazon.com and order little hemp paste sprays and pastes and everything from right online and they'll ship it across state lines.

4:05:43ChimeraSo, you know... It's this really complicated mesh of a series of regulations and law that overlap with, you know, we're talking with the pesticides and the legalities of the criminal law with the cannabinoids and state law and federal law and all this stuff, all these acts. It's a real hairball, you know.

4:06:05Archive SeedsAnd that was why I was making the point earlier that That's why I think import and export is going to be really difficult is all that red tape that you've got to get through to make a product legal here and over here. And that's just like, I'm not saying it's impossible and that it won't happen. I think that any government or anybody that knows their worth in terms of trying to make money off of this should allow it.

4:06:28Archive SeedsBut getting through that red tape is a whole other hairball like you said.

4:06:33ChimeraCanada did it in one act. They created the medical marijuana purposes regulations and in that act they created the system for the commercial production of cannabis, the sale of cannabis, the importation of cannabis, the exportation of cannabis and it was one piece of paper and it went from you can't do it to you can do it.

4:06:50Archive SeedsSo, you know, it is possible to do it. California can't even put us in a stoplight without 10 years of litigation.

4:06:59ChimeraAll these layers of government that are layering on top of each other. You've got municipal laws. You've got county laws. Some towns or small districts don't want pot in their borders. And then the counties, like Mendocino County is regulating how many plants you can have. And California has Prop 215 and SB 420 and now these other three. That Jerry Brown just put in and then you got the federal laws layering on top of it.

4:07:21ChimeraIt's a complicated issue in the states. And it's going to be hard to break down all these systems. But I think, again, like I said earlier... You guys are losing out on money on the international market. Canadians now, Canada's like shipping weed back and forth to Holland and Italy and Colombia and now South America and, you know, Tweed's got contracts with Bedrocan for distribution in all of South America and North America and it's like the ground, the race has started and I can't see the United States For much longer, keeping these American companies down and keeping them, you know, making them lose market on the international... Let's be honest, a lot of the companies up here are American.

4:08:06BubblemanSure. That's how they're going to do it, you know. The smart ones just came up here and invested their money for now and they'll get it all sorted out and you know the minute they are able to down south, they'll just plug that component into...

4:08:21ChimeraYeah, privateer holdings. I mean, this is what Mark Scaldone said. He said the exact same thing earlier when he was talking about alcohol. It's inevitable, dude. I mean, it's happening. It's happened. As far as I'm concerned, it's all over but the crying.

4:08:38Dr Mark ScialdoneHave I ever shared my donut analogy with y'all? Have I ever talked about this before? The donut?

4:08:45BubblemanYeah, you have. Let's move on to... No, I'm just joking. Go ahead.

4:08:50Dr Mark ScialdoneNo, I just think it's so telling because again, so a donut is defined by the whole of the donut and the whole of the donut is basically where the industry is today and that's where Tony is and that's where the people basically can't bank their money, the people who can't write off expenses like any other business. I mean, it's just crippling this industry and they're really interfering with With free enterprise.

4:09:19Dr Mark ScialdoneThe rest of the donut is the legitimate part of the economy that again is feeding off of the whole of the donut which is again the genies out of the bottle, whatever metaphor you want to use. The donut basically is defined by basically the legitimate part of the economy that again is feeding off this. Look at what's going on in Denver. Look at what's going on with real estate.

4:09:43Dr Mark ScialdoneLook at what's going on in the other areas of the economy that feed off Off of the cannabis industry. Let's face it, this industry has been beneficial to the states that have enacted the legislation and you can't say otherwise, economically. And so yeah, once that money gets into the tactical, there's no turning back. That's the donut analogy. Or bagel, you know, if you like bagels. Did you just call me a bagel?

4:10:20BubblemanTony and Mark have the worst feedback on their TV.

4:10:24Dr Mark ScialdoneSorry about that. You're a ravioli, Tony.

4:10:30SpeakerI mean, pizza bagel's okay. You know, I didn't know if you were just calling me a bagel. I just wanted to make sure. Or a donut.

4:10:41BubblemanWell, I'll tell you. That was a solid four-hour hash church today. Very great conversation. I definitely want to thank Chimera for coming in and sharing his perspective with us, giving us some fresh blood in the church.

4:10:57ChimeraPleasure to be chatting with you guys.

4:10:59BubblemanYeah, man, absolutely. And always a pleasure to have Horatio and Mark Scaldone and Tony. Verzura and the rest. I mean, Rob Clark coming in and Todd McCormick and Etienne earlier on. Always a pleasure to have everyone come on. So yeah, last Hash Church of 2015. The next time you see us, it'll literally be next year. You guys don't get to see us for a whole year, well, or a week, whatever your perspective is.

4:11:27BubblemanSo I will see you. I will see you. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, everybody.