Cannabis Legalization and Genetic Preservation

0:01BubblemanWell, hello everybody and welcome to Hash Church episode 67. Wow, first one of the new year. Happy New Year everybody, 2016. That's definitely worth raising a glass to. I will just quickly turn off my YouTube volume, do a quick invite via mail and via messenger and via Skype and via Facebook. Let's see if Mr. Chimera wants to visit us again this week. Anyway, I hope everyone had a great New Year's.

0:37BubblemanThat was fun by me, hanging out with the family. Always a blessing when you get to spend your New Year's with your family. Partied until the late hours, wee hours of the night. And of course used cannabis as my method of enjoyment. Didn't drink any booze, didn't have any champagne. That's just how I do. That's just how I do. Welcome, Etienne. Happy New Year, my buddy. Happy New Year to you, my friend.

1:05BubblemanHow are you? I'm doing pretty good, you know. No complaints, no complaints. Just another great year. I'm not going to lie. I feel that this is the year, Etienne. I feel that 2016 is going to be a year where exponential growth is felt in the scale of cannabis becoming normalized, legalized, decriminalized, whatever you want to call it.

1:29Etienne FontanWell, we've been pushing this boulder. We've been playing Sisyphus for so long. We've been pushing this damn boulder uphill. It's nice. It's going to be very nice to watch it roll downhill in 2016. I know everyone's not going to be happy. There's different legislative situations all over and no replication is similar. Thank you for joining us.

2:04Etienne FontanSo you can actually come to the United States this year as well as the many competitions. We thought we had a lot of people were talking earlier about competitions. You know how many competitions there were last year? Practically every other weekend. And so this year it's going to be, I'm afraid, even worse with cannabis competitions because now everyone and their brothers realize they can either make money or do something with it.

2:25Etienne FontanSo expect more of the chaos and some of the stupidity, but Thank you for joining us.

2:48Etienne FontanUh... Come in and play. And it's been interesting to see in 2015 when these people came to play with their initiatives and how the public reacted, how the hardcore activists, how the cannabis people themselves reacted, because, you know, we saw the failure in Ohio when they thought it was successful. And we're gonna see other initiatives pushing forward in 2016 because it's the election year for everyone so you're looking at ohio you're looking at florida you're looking at nevada you're looking possibly california you know those are three huge swing states ohio florida and california so goes those states so goes the united states so hopefully the continual crumbling of the um Glass ceiling of the drug war will continue to collapse and we'll finally get some freedoms.

3:38Etienne FontanIt looks for sure you're going to see major change in Canada this year with... No doubt. So what do you anticipate to happen in Canada this year? Just out of curiosity in your little oracle.

3:51BubblemanBut you know, I just actually invited Larsen Message because he has a lot to say in regards to Canada and what's going on. He wrote a really good article this year and I believe it was for the Huffington or the National or one of the newspapers he writes for gets picked up independently and he wrote an article about how You know, the people that have been fighting it all of these years should not be in a position to now profit from it, you know, at least not first.

4:22BubblemanI wish he was here to sort of tell his little story. I don't think that's how it's going to go. I read another article today. You know, Chimera last week was mentioning the real importance of the marketplace is to be able to import and export worldwide and that's what Canada has right now and so US companies are obviously invested up here and I read an article today saying that, you know, in 2016 US companies have their eye on Canada.

4:46BubblemanOf course, they're going to be lobbying their own government but they're not going to hold their breath. For everything to go federal while in the meantime it already is federal in a country literally right next door that is still a first world. Thank you for joining us.

5:23BubblemanCorporations, they're all trying to take it over. And I hear their argument loud and clear, but at the same time I feel that no one up to this point has been able to do it well enough to produce enough in quality to make it available to everyone In droves. So until that happens, I pretty much support every method in every way. I really hope Trudeau stands by his word and he lets Canadians continue to grow their own medicine.

5:53BubblemanThat to me is essential.

5:55Etienne FontanIf he does that, then you guys need to start a North American gene bank. If you have that first legality, somebody really has to start preserving these genetics and having them accessible so that somebody in Ottawa can get the same thing in Winnipeg, get the same thing It's the same thing that we want to have here in the United States. And if Canada goes first, y'all have to take the responsibility of starting a germplasm institute because it is so crucial to maintain all these genetics so that we have and know what we have moving forward so that people can get there.

6:31Etienne FontanWhen I buy a Northern Lights, it's a true Northern Lights. It's not a Northern Lights that's a bubble bearer that's named Northern Lights. We need to have some... It really starts at the base. To have what you were saying, we have to have the basis of the genetics available. You don't have basic genetics available for the masses yet. So we have to accumulate and start in that direction at some point, not to belittle.

6:57Etienne FontanIt's just we have a lot of responsibility once these things turn. We want to maintain all of these Thank you for joining us today.

7:25BubblemanAnd so how do we do that in a sense like is that a publicly owned company and we just hope that they're a righteous or is that a government thing where we're like there's like remember we got from the different institutes for our hemp so oh I know about the institutes I'm just saying here in Canada here in North America everyone loves to name things and if you got a company to do it Thank you so much for joining us.

8:12BubblemanReally have those names nailed.

8:14Etienne FontanWell, they'd have to be a neutral body. They'd have to be a responsible body. They'd also have to be cannabis experts because we want them to know exactly what they're supposed to know is what. And so, yeah, there needs to be gene mapping, which fortunately Phylos is doing, but they're only one company. We're going to see other companies come on board and, you know, again... It's going to take people some adjusting because we're not going to like everything that comes down the pike.

8:42Etienne FontanAnd as well as we need to map these genes so we know what they really truly are from the beginning. So by breaking them down gene-wise, we have... Uh, Jim, Match, and that was going to have to be, but which can millions of dollars people that have to go into something that's just the institute itself. That's including access to those genetics or, you know, mass growth scaling.

9:06Etienne FontanBut as you said, the big is that when we come monopoly, that's going to become big business. But that's the reality of once the, this jeans out of the bag and Pandora open, you know, every, Well, we like it, you know. I'm not going to like what some people are going to be doing with cannabis, but that's just the reality of the market. I don't like what they're doing with alcohol.

9:28Etienne FontanSome I like, some I don't. It's just the reality of the business and the world. We're not going to have the whole kumbaya cannabis world, unfortunately. It's just not that way. And we've seen that already with Colorado and other states coming on board that Not everyone's going to be happy. As you said, people are initially divisive, and they stay that way, unfortunately. So I figured a way to do that was to start combining things to have something like a germplasm institute so that people had an honor.

10:03Etienne FontanThank you so much for joining us today.

10:33Etienne FontanAs well, that are really trying to produce properly and maintain them. At the same time, we have to take it out of their hands and put it into a universal, you know, so that they can be stored, so it can be continued to be bred, like with the cannabis from the Capote Institute. Every two years, they breed those plants in certain areas of the world and save those seeds so that seed stocks, you know, acclimate it.

11:00Etienne FontanMorning, Todd. We're just talking, Gene. Oh, it was totally boring, bro. I wasn't listening.

11:06SpeakerI was teasing, of course. Somebody said ATN was boring, so I had to tease them. Good morning, guys. Growing weed is illegal, ATN. I don't know if you know that, but... Is it?

11:19Etienne FontanWow, okay. I better stop selling it then. That's the bad thing, right?

11:26SpeakerNo, don't do that.

11:27Etienne FontanActually, don't do that.

11:28SpeakerA little civil disobedience in our country. Well, don't forget. Canada too, eh? You guys were civilly disobedient at times, right?

11:35BubblemanYeah, you know, we've been influenced by our good friends down in the U.S. over the years, and we've been like, you know, you can fight the fight up here, and it's almost not as scary.

11:53SpeakerWell, you guys were much more rational about your prison terms.

11:56BubblemanEven when it was the scariest. It just wasn't as scary.

12:02SpeakerWhat's that? I said you guys were a lot more realiztic about your prison terms. So, you know, I mean, not to sound like America's crazy and they lock everybody up. Wait a minute. America is crazy and they do lock everybody up. Sorry, it's early. You know, the thing is, though, is that that's part of the problem here. I think a lot of people are afraid. I mean, look, we had a smokeout in New York, was it in 2000 or 2001, the year I was in prison, and fucking the mayor at the time, was it Giuliani, fucking sent cops, arrested 300 people.

12:31SpeakerAfter that, May Day was done. People were like, I'm not going downtown. And I get why. Who the fuck wants to spend the money and go through the New York court system? And it's a great way to oppress us. You know, there was a point made before that under Nixon's regime, he was really upset about all these hippies coming out and speaking against him, but he couldn't do shit about it.

12:49SpeakerSo part of the marijuana laws and, you know, the whole Tim Leary problem he had was to go after us, the people that were speaking out against his shit, and he didn't like it, you know, and You know, I've suffered tons of prison time for fucking speaking out. And I know that if I hadn't been political, I would be like so many of the other growers. You wouldn't know my name.

13:10SpeakerI'd be home in my house, growing my weed, you know, wishing the world was a different place instead of trying to change it.

13:17BubblemanYeah, it's the same thing that happened to my mentor back in the day. He was so loud. He was so, you know, when you went as a young person into his hydroponic store in the late 80s, early 90s, And you said, oh, you know, I've got these tomatoes growing, because that's what you had to say, because if you went into Bob's hydroponic shop before Ron, who was my mentor, Bob had the only hydroponic shop in the city, and if you talked about anything other than tomatoes, he was kicking your ass out of the store.

13:44BubblemanBut Ron, Ron was a little bit different. If you came into his store and talked about tomatoes, he'd say, hey, come on, I know what you're growing, and we both know what we're growing, and it ain't tomatoes. And he'd take you downstairs and then give you the whole lay down on how you needed to take care of these babies and how you needed to care for them and grow them up, build them into nice strong plants, wonderful buds.

14:08BubblemanAnd, you know, he did 11 years for that, for being that vocal. And it was simply put, for cannabis, he did 11 years in a full-time penitentiary.

14:18SpeakerIn Canada. 11 years in Canada.

14:20BubblemanIn Canada.

14:22SpeakerOkay, take back whatever I said about y'all being not crazy. You're just as crazy as we are then.

14:27BubblemanOkay, wait. We have to hear how Ron did his second six-year stint because he did a five and a half and then he got a six-year stint for the second one. And the second one was when a woman pretended to be sick with cancer so she could buy pounds of weed off of him. And once she got enough pounds, I think it was about seven or eight pounds over the course of eight months or something, She got him arrested and she got him sentenced to six years in prison.

14:55BubblemanNow, why she was doing that? Because she wanted to get yard time for her double axe murderer husband who Ron ended up doing all his time with in the prison. That's fucked up.

15:12Etienne FontanWithout a doubt, that's beyond fucked up.

15:15BubblemanThat's gotta be one of the most fucked up. An innocent cannabis user does six years in prison because someone, A, should it not be against the law to pretend you're dying of cancer and suck people into helping you? Is that not like the lowest of the low?

15:30Etienne FontanWell, how is that not entrapment?

15:34SpeakerYou know, not to sound like a weirdo, but in Las Vegas at that Hemcon show, one of the things I heard cops did was come in in a wheelchair, pretending to be sick, and asking for samples from the people that were there, and pretending to be, you know, I don't want to use the word pathetic because, you know, but that's what the act was. The act was, oh, poor me, I'm in a wheelchair, help me out.

15:59SpeakerActually, it's an undercover cop who can walk just fine, he's just being a piece of shit. You know, and how many of us don't have a heart? I mean, when you come to me or you come to somebody that's, and you're suffering, of course I'm going to try to help you out. I mean, anyone with empathy would. Yeah, what a shit move though.

16:15BubblemanWhat a shit move. Well, you know what? In the end, Ron was amazing. The whole time he was in prison, he used cannabis to keep people from fighting and stabbing and murdering each other, and they were definitely sad to see him go because the prison was the least violent it had ever been in years with him being there. He used cannabis as a means to communicate with the two people who were having a beef, and he acted much like You know, almost like the principal of the prison in the sense that it was just simply put, like, oh, you got a beef with someone?

16:46BubblemanWell, go puff a dube with Ron and you guys can work it out rather than, like, shank him 82 times in the chest, which is, you know, not the way to work anything out. Gotta get Ron on church one day. He's got incredible stories. You can't even believe it.

17:03Etienne FontanHopefully in 2016 we'll start to see those roll back so that we can start to see some of these prohibition and bullshitteries become less and less. I would love to just go into a bong shop and say, bong, as opposed to for tobacco use only. You know, although back in California it was actually one in the courts back in, what was it, um, What was that shop's name?

17:27SpeakerIt was Craig Rubin. Craig Rubin. Because the West Hollywood police came in and took all his inventory because he was saying bong in his paraphernalia shop, his head shop. And he challenged it. And the judge ruled that it was freedom of speech. If you want to call it, you call it whatever you want to call it. It's just a word. And the West Hollywood sheriffs had to give all the bongs back.

17:50SpeakerAnd they actually painted, you know, come get your bongs on the side of the building. You know, it's amazing how unfree this country is. I just, I laugh at the people that talk to me about, oh, you know, Second Amendment gun rights, you know, we've got to keep ourselves free, and it's like, we've never been free, guys. We haven't been free for fucking ever. You know, go plant pot in your front yard, see how free you are, even if you've got a whole mainstay of guns in your house.

18:13SpeakerCops will come and just give you enhancements for your wonderful artillery collection and still bust you.

18:23BubblemanWe've got all these crazy laws on the books as well. They're completely on the books. We're not allowed to even sell bongs in Canada. I'm almost convinced that that's still 100% illegal, as is like Grow Books and High Times and all these sort of magazines. Now, Canada doesn't enforce it, but I'm pretty sure it's on the books.

18:45Etienne FontanCanada may not enforce it, but they'll allow the United States to come in and enforce it for them, unfortunately. Oh, fuck yeah.

18:54Etienne FontanNo doubt, we should have Mark or Jody on sometime. That'd be kind of cool. Yeah, it would be good to have that, you know, if they've been through the Prohibition fireworks, you know.

19:02SpeakerWell, it's funny how they haven't tried to chuck anybody else over the Canadian border since Mark, you know. How many seed companies are in Canada? It's just the loud one is the one they go after, you know. Oh, you got attention on you. Come here, Mark.

19:15BubblemanThey did go for Richard Calrissian, who got taken out, RC, who owned Overgrow.com at the end of its life cycle. They took that. They took CannabisWorld.com and they busted him pretty good. Not Americans. Overgrow was busted by Canadians. 100%. But he was busted. He was the only other seed guy in Canada ever busted.

19:41Etienne FontanWhat was he convicted of?

19:43BubblemanYou know, you'd have to look it up. I think it's the selling of seeds. That's why they went after him. So the three biggest seed guys, you know, over the course of the last 10 years or whatever, vocally biggest seed guys, sorry, 20 years, definitely like Mark Emery, Archie, and Jim Carrey has been touched by the authorities.

20:08BubblemanUnfortunately. Welcome, Horatio. Happy New Year, buddy. Good morning.

20:14HoratioHappy New Year.

20:16BubblemanYeah.

20:17Etienne FontanHappy New Year, Horatio.

20:19BubblemanYou guys ready to fly around the sun another time on this rock or what?

20:24Etienne FontanLet's keep this rock stable for another 365 days. I'm cool. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

20:32BubblemanBubble Man has a lag. Everyone's complaining about me having a lag.

20:38Etienne FontanYou do. You are a tad choppy today.

20:41BubblemanI hate it. I can't do much about it, though. I'm in it to win it. I'm here. If I close it up, there is always the possibility that church ends for the day, so hopefully the food's okay. And then everyone goes back to bed. Oh, it was a good church today. Crash. By 9.21, we were in bed. You know, the shortest church we ever had was when I landed in Ontario, in Toronto, at Pearson's, Jumped in a car with my Jamaican friend, Claude, who drove me through a snowstorm.

21:15BubblemanI'm talking a snowstorm. Like 40 minutes away from the airport when I had to fly that day from the airport to Jamaica. And I did a 17-minute long hash church at his house in like, fuck, I don't know where it was. It was like outside of, you know, one of those neighborhoods outside of the airport. 17 minutes.

21:41BubblemanThat was a short one.

21:45Etienne FontanYeah, it was a little bit short.

21:47BubblemanWell, today, oh, I know who I'm supposed to invite in today that I totally spaced, that he was like, invite me into Hellish Church today. And that would be Mr. Kyle Cushman. Mr. Kyle Cushman said he would come in and share some stories with us today. Also, I'm in Jamaica. Before that happened in a long time. So let's see if I should... I forgot to send him out the link.

22:19BubblemanLet me see if I can get that done real quick.

22:22Etienne FontanWell, he isn't here, so bong, Rick.

22:26BubblemanYeah, I don't know where he is. I sent him the link. Man, my computer's messing with me. Every time I go to grab a box and put it up top... This new thing that Mac does, it basically grabs everything and puts it up top. It's a little confusing. All right, there we go for Adam. Sorry about forgetting about you, buddy. I'll tell you, it's like a memory thing I have to remember.

22:56BubblemanI don't have you guys on cut and paste because it's a Facebook invitation. Each week I have to, like, add your names. And you guys are the core, so you're quite easy, but then I... I forget names. I'm like trying to remember who to fucking invite in.

23:10Etienne FontanI know, John. Isn't it crazy like that?

23:15BubblemanIt's crazy.

23:20Etienne FontanI'm excited to see what new strains and stuff come out this year. There are no strains. The combinations fall to the ground so that we can get real.

23:26BubblemanThere are no strains.

23:28SpeakerThere are no strains. Bacteria has strains, bro. We learned that last week while you were out at some aquarium or some shit, dude. We have cultivars. Get it straight. Cultivars.

23:38BubblemanYou jumped out to the river last week. You got schooled by Chimera.

23:44Etienne FontanI didn't watch last week, but I always accept scientific knowledge.

23:48BubblemanYou know what, it was a good one last week. I saw the skunk man Sam's wife had posted on her Facebook. She was saying that it was one of the most enjoyable hash churches, one of the most knowledgeable hash churches that she had ever watched. So it was definitely one worth going back and checking out. He gave some pretty damn good information. I look forward to the day that he can come back and get Kevin, the genome guy, in here and get Alec from Essie Labs.

24:16BubblemanI like the idea of bringing in some new fresh faces to get us into some new conversation.

24:25Etienne FontanWell, nomenclature is clear, and it's key that we have the proper language and lingo to work with. Otherwise, we're just replicating the bad, like saying we smoke sativas.

24:35BubblemanI'm still a little thrown on it in the sense that variety or cultivar, are they the same or are they different?

24:45Etienne FontanYou can have a variety of cultivars. That's correct. I was just going to say two different words. Exactly.

24:50BubblemanBecause yesterday or last week when we talked about it, we mentioned that it could be either variety or cultivar, but they're not the same thing.

24:58Etienne FontanBut they're also genes.

25:00HoratioWell, when did he mean, did he mean pheno? Like, I thought maybe variety stood for the strain and then the cultivar was the pheno, but I was equating it in my brain, or is pheno just totally independent as a child?

25:15SpeakerA phenotype, I think, is an example of a cultivar, if you will.

25:19BubblemanOne is from clone and one is from seed. No, no, no. That's just what Jeff from Aqualab Technologies just said in the chat.

25:28SpeakerNo, that doesn't make sense. A clone and a seed is the same plant. You know, I had a guy up and we were doing time.

25:35BubblemanNo, no, because the seed produces a wider range of variety than the clone, so they're not the same.

25:42SpeakerYou mean one seed, and okay, I thought you meant a seed plant, it becomes the clone plant. I don't know how else to put it.

25:50BubblemanThere's like a hundred seed stability of that one clone. You'll get varieties.

26:00BubblemanI mean, I'm just talking out my ass from what sounds like common sense, but that sounds like a variety. You get varieties. And they were talking about that, and I liked how Rob told the panel and everyone, like, plant more seeds. You know, there's more variety from the seed.

26:18Etienne FontanWell, we're dealing with happy accidents and with modifications that happen just in growing scope. You have to let the evolution of its genetics take hold. And the great thing about having so many different seeds is that you can get so much diversity.

26:37BubblemanMichael Manning says it's strand. Don't you guys know what the fuck you're talking about?

26:44SpeakerDude, just like a thing of water, bro.

26:49BubblemanPick winners for yourself.

26:51SpeakerYou know, though, what... A lot of outdoor growers I feel like throw away amazing genes because they go seed, seed, seed every year. They don't honor the females. They don't do the selection. They don't get the best example of that particular seed batch and then keep the plant going. I see so many Northern California growers show me pot and they go, do you got the mother? And they're like, no.

27:13SpeakerI'm like, that's brilliant. That's just brilliant.

27:17BubblemanYeah, it's true. So many people, so many lost versions of these different varieties over the years. I definitely know beautiful ones that I've loved and that are gone. You hope one day, like a decade later, that you hit something and you're like, was that what I think it was? It happens every so often. I'll tell you one that it happened to me for. Back in the 90s, we had a strain called the Romulan, and the Romulan was so ridiculous and so piney and so amazing.

27:50BubblemanAnd then it disappeared, and then it came back, and it was not the Romulan. People, oh, I don't know, I have the Romulan. Oh, I got the Romulan right here. It's like, no, you fucking don't. Like, I wish you did. Trust me, I'm not mad.

28:03SpeakerBut can I say something, though? An interesting thought to this is really factual, you know? We had a cutting of Romulan. I grew Romulan for years even when I got out of prison. The thought I'm having though is that like literally if you and I go to Holland and pick up a bag of seeds and come home, split them up, and you break the seeds, I break the seeds, you pick a longer flowering one, I pick a shorter flowering one, we technically have the same plant.

28:28SpeakerWe just have different phenotypes of the same plant. You picked one that's like, you know, flowers longer, I picked one flowers shorter or vice versa, but we technically have the same Dare I say it? Strand? It's Strand, right?

28:41BubblemanIt's the same, same, but different.

28:45SpeakerWell, these are what Rob was saying. You know, when you break the seeds and you can see the diversity of the pairing, that's when you can start picking stuff. And I think a lot of people that used to go to Holland, they would get these varieties like Cali Muster and L5 by Haste. They would come back and they'd go back to their American mentality. They'd pick the one that flowers the fastest with the biggest buds.

29:04SpeakerBut it's the least like what the intention of the breeder was, for instance. If you take Callie Mist, he has a 16-week female. He mixes it with an 8-week male. He gets a 10-week F1 hybrid. Now, if you pick an 8-week or a 9-week out of that seed pack, you've really kind of undid his breeding. If you pick a 10, 11, 12, now you're getting more towards what he was trying to do, which was reproduce the 16-week qualities in a shorter flowering time.

29:32SpeakerSo this is where the differentiation falls from, and sometimes we pick for our own needs and not what the breeder intended. Dare I say.

29:40BubblemanWhat I always found was that it seemed as though the terpene profile was affected the most. You know, it seemed that like for sweet skunk, for instance, the original sweet skunk was a very sparse plant. They could grow kind of big nuts, but they were very fluffy and light. The most unique, incredible, sweet, exotic, haze aftertaste plant that you could come across And when it got crossed, I believe it was Jordan of the Islands that crossed it with some big bud or something that made it grow much bigger.

30:17BubblemanAnd it was like what I always considered to be maybe at least about half of the original. So it was bigger and it looked beautiful and it still had the smell, but it was literally half the smell, if not less. And people who always thought that they had the sweet skunk, I always felt like, oh, you know, not to burst your bubble, but... That's really like a shadow version of what the sweet skunk is.

30:42BubblemanIt's like whatever terpene profile he crossed it with, it was dominant, it took over, and it's not that good compared to the original sweet skunk. And the Romulan, more than that, that I only ever tasted that Romulan taste in a few crosses about five or six years after the Romulan, which was a clone-only strain or a cultivar, pheno, whatever you want to call it. It was clone-only.

31:10BubblemanIt was passed around. And it was really very few people had it, but it was unmistakable when you saw it or smoked it. It was unmistakable. And to this day, I still... Don't see strains that have that high a profile of pinene or pinelene or whatever it is that that terpene is called that produces that pine tree aroma.

31:35Etienne FontanThis is where it goes back to what I was talking about earlier in the need for germplasm institute is that when you're talking about your first Romulan that you smoked, that's if that Romulan was the exact Romulan phenotype that it was to begin with, you know. I've had things that I've tried and then had people later tell me, oh no, that was this. Because I didn't know.

31:57Etienne FontanMy palate wasn't as refined or as knowledge yet. So it still goes back to if that was originally what that really was when you tried it, as opposed to, because people say, no, you don't understand. This string is this, and I know that it's not that string from either testing or tasting it. They still have such a hardcore... The inner belief system that that strain is that strain regardless of what you say.

32:24Etienne FontanI don't care what you say. This is the original this. This is the original that. So again, it's still subjective if, again, that genetic was that genetic. And probably for you, it probably was that genetic originally because you had access and still have access to really good genetics and genes. But I myself have found it's still subjective.

32:44BubblemanWell, it's always good when you're getting a strain like the Romulan gene. That you would be getting it off of a guy named Romulan Joe. Now if you got your Romulan cut off of Romulan Joe, there was no argument. No one would even think to argue that you didn't have the Romulan here in that timeline in the 90s because it was just so few people had it.

33:08Etienne FontanAnd it was so distinct from everything else.

33:14BubblemanAnd of course he was growing us to the BC Compassion Club back in the day because Joe and I were two of the first growers for the BC Compassion Club. We'd grow dank weed, we'd trade each other an ounce for an ounce, but then everything else pretty much went to the club. Keep an ounce of your own, trade an ounce for Joe's, and then spend the next two and a half months looking to buy weed at a higher price for less quality than what we had just produced for the BC Compassion Club.

33:42BubblemanBut Hillary had that way about her, you know, you just wanted to do that for her. You wanted, her mission was so pure and good, it was like, of course I want to do that for you, Hillary. Like, what the hell? Why wouldn't I do that? I always thank her for pulling the philanthropy out of me in the best of ways.

34:07BubblemanI love it.

34:09SpeakerYeah, she has a way of making you go, mm-hmm, okay, no problem. Yeah, of course I want to do that. Yeah, sounds great. I'm up for it. Right? Yeah, no, let's go. I fell in love. I'm not going to lie. Indeed. You did. Indeed. I met you, Todd. Did you meet me? No, you met me the year before that we were together.

34:37BubblemanOh, that's right. Okay, yeah.

34:38SpeakerI mean, November of 95, and Hillary moved out in August of 96, but you did see us together at Posse in 96.

34:46BubblemanThat was right around the time, for sure. We were helping run the place with Bernard. Posse-tronics was definitely, you know, I hit Bernard up. Maybe you should hit him up, because he never replied to me, but I hit him up, and I said, bro, like, you need to come on Hash Church and tell some stories. Let us know what you're doing. Let us know how we can help, and just, I mean, come on, man, like, You need to come and share your stories.

35:10BubblemanI would love to get replied. I also hit up Ethan Russo recently, but he said something about the members of his company not maybe... He was like, oh, I think that's a little too liberal. He said something funny about it. It made me dig up this old picture of him speaking at the... The audience is like dreadlocked out and everyone's like puffing bowls and stuff. He's up at the podium in his suit talking and I felt like sending them the picture and being like, come on, dude, don't you remember your roots when you used to speak to people like us?

35:46SpeakerNo, dude. We don't have suits on. We're not good enough, bro.

35:49BubblemanWell, you know, there is still, and I don't blame him for that. I just blame Prohibition, and it's that same mentality that people have. They're worried that they'll lose their kids, or the doctors are worried they'll lose their license, or the chemists are worried they'll lose their opportunities, or all of these different people. It's always this fear of losing out if you stand up.

36:11Etienne FontanWhen we were activists back in the 90s, I got called Can got called before the normal board to actually be taken to task for actually going out and being activists on the road and making the suits in D.C. look bad. I mean you want to talk about disheartening as an activist because at that time normal life held in a high I wonder why they don't get any donations and their 990s look like they're panhandlers for now.

36:40Etienne FontanHmm.

37:07Etienne FontanWell, just name one thing Normal has done besides take your money and refer you to lawyers.

37:13BubblemanOh, is that who we're bashing on?

37:16SpeakerYeah, yeah, yeah. It's the National Organization for the Referral of Marijuana Lawyers.

37:21BubblemanFor the referral of marijuana lawyers.

37:23SpeakerOh, I'm not lying. There was one in L.A. that got fucking lost his license because he literally had one person sit there and go, Hi, California, or not California, go L.A. Normal. Oh, you got busted? Oh, that sucks. Call our good friends at, and then he'd hang up, and then he'd pick up and go, all right, all right, law officer, bullshit. Can I help you? Oh, yeah, normal's great.

37:42SpeakerYeah, we'll take your case. Totally illegal.

37:46BubblemanNo shit, eh?

37:47SpeakerYeah, no shit. That's why all those lawyers wanted to get the number to their local normal offices, because people call up for help, and they'd say, sure, we do that. Come on down with five grand.

37:58BubblemanYeah, that's rough.

38:00SpeakerI actually got not a lot of love for a lot of the professionals in the industry that want to kind of, they're making money off it. I mean, you know, having lawyers in charge of changing the laws is the stupidest thing because all they're going to want to do is not go back to actually having to defend murderers and rapists and people that are shitheads. They're just going to rather deal with us potheads because they feel good about us.

38:18SpeakerThey're proud to have clients like me. You know, oh yeah, hey, let's go to court and get dinner after. Yeah, okay, that's great.

38:25BubblemanI know. I felt the same way I had with him.

38:30SpeakerNot going to lie.

38:32BubblemanI felt much better. I mean, I like what they do. They are important. It's dense when you're facing court, but at the same time, it's just like human nature to want to take advantage of opportunities, to see opportunities in places that you're not supposed to see opportunities. When your kid sees someone drop money and they find that money, you want them to see that as an opportunity to return the money, not as, oh, I just made $10.00.

38:59BubblemanNo, that is not the right opportunity. The I just made 10 bucks, which sounds like what you're talking about, Todd. You know, instead of, you know, doing the righteous thing, it seems like they're finding the money and keeping it.

39:12SpeakerAnd that's not really... That's a polite way to put it, and I see it more in a way as fraud, because if you're showing up, you know, pretending like you're going to assist me, dressed like, you know, an ambulance driver, but you're really actually just waiting to do a cashectomy and then plead me out... You're really not helping me much, to be really blunt. I found it disgusting.

39:34SpeakerI mean, you know, disingenuous behavior I've always despised since I was a little kid. And there's no two ways around it. And I've seen a lot of that in that group. I'm not going to lie. I don't give a fuck what people think.

39:51SpeakerWhat up with them Fuck Mickey Awards? Come on, I hope everybody read that just for the sheer pure enjoyment of it.

39:57BubblemanIt did feel kind of mean, I'm not going to lie, it did feel kind of mean. I was like, whoa, this guy is like, I was waiting for the one on me. I have to admit, I was wondering what I did.

40:11SpeakerI actually think Mickey likes you, Mark, but I'll check. I'll check. That's funny. I just correct his spelling errors is all I ever do. I'm like, oh, Mickey.

40:22BubblemanFrom a comedy standpoint, it was funny, but there was a perspective or a part of it that was just bullying, that was just mean bullying. Am I wrong?

40:37SpeakerNo, no, no, I'm not going to say you're wrong. Mickey has a great, you know, look, he's pissed off a lot of people, but I think that there's a, you know, look, what I've been trying to get him to do is try to write with less obscenity so people will read all of it, because it's really, he's got a lot of honesty mixed with his anger.

40:53BubblemanYeah, yeah, I appreciate that.

40:55SpeakerAnd honestly, as much as he does bash some people, I'm not going to be anything but honest and say I think a lot of those people deserve the criticism. I mean, a lot of the people that he's talking about, some of them, I'm not going to mention specifics, have literally gotten reputations for ripping people off, disingenuously saying they're going to help people and fucking burning them, getting money for it.

41:19SpeakerWe're talking people that have kids that are sick. So I can see why Nicky's pissed as a parent. And some of them, you know, like with Reform CA, he's just calling it like he sees it. I mean, you know, and I don't mean that to be rude, but I get where he's coming from. A lot of it's been a whole parade of ego that we've been dealing with, and he's just popping balloons.

41:41SpeakerI actually don't feel all that upset about watching them pop some balloons because some of those people need their fucking balloons popped. You know, if you're on social media in a Ferrari and you're trying to pretend like you're the Compassion Club clean in Beverly Hills, you're going to get a little criticism. You're going to get a little criticism. You know, sorry.

41:59BubblemanThey all have to be bashed on. I just knew a few of them and was just kind of like, oh, wow, that's, Mickey don't play. Who holds bar?

42:11Etienne FontanThis year is write their truth, and he's speaking his truth, and I love Mickey. I don't always agree with Mickey, but I always appreciate that because we are a movement, we've got all aspects, and we have to appreciate our Mickeys for calling out those that need calling out. He's like our Howard Stern. But at the same time, some are very justified.

42:30SpeakerRight. What's so different about him than a Howard Stern? That's a great comparison. I mean, Mickey just doesn't have a radio show and a satellite contract.

42:37BubblemanYeah, it's about $500 million a year. The difference?

42:41SpeakerGod, he would be, that fuck Nicky list would be long as shit if he had that kind of budget.

42:46BubblemanYeah, but keep in mind, I think 80% of the listeners to Sirius are his listeners. That's why he got like half a billion dollars or whatever the first time he signed up and like another three quarters of a billion in like shares or stock options or something like that. He is literally like way more than half of the serious radio listeners tune in for Howard Stern.

43:12SpeakerPeople love that shit.

43:13BubblemanPeople love that sort of negative aspect shit, no holds barred, like tell it like it is. You know, there's a woman version on the radio. Every time I get in my wife's car, she's got it on. It's like Dr. Laura. And she also just tears into people. Tears into people like...

43:31Etienne FontanWhat are you fucking doing? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just like, you're fucking an idiot. You need to do this, this, and this.

43:36BubblemanI turn it off within one minute of being in the car every time, but I have heard her tear some people open pretty good.

43:42Etienne FontanI've got to say, Howard Stern's gotten a lot better over the years, and his interviews are without a doubt still the best. People can say whatever they want to say. They can say, fuck this fucksucker motherfucker in tits. They don't have to worry about any type of censoring. And so the conversations are very natural, very fluid, very flowing, and more honest than any because no one's really, they have to, no one's trying to rethink about what they're going to say so they don't say what they want to say.

44:11Etienne FontanIt becomes more honest and open that way. I've always appreciated that. As well as, trust me, it always gets, Howard's crazy and his whole crew is crazy.

44:24BubblemanHey, you know what I'd like to see Fuck Mickey do? I'd like to see Fuck Mickey take on The awards themselves. Because some of these awards that have been going on, they're endless. There's literally a hundred of them. There's some people on my Facebook page that are literally receiving awards every fucking week. I mean, it's a mockery.

44:46Etienne FontanIt's an absolute... It's becoming a mockery because there are so many competitions. I mean, just what we need, another cannabis competition? I mean, we already know the problems with the High Times Cannabis Cup, and so it's just... What, another competition? What are we competing against? If you and I have the same problem, or we have different reactions to the same cannabis, so what's to say what's the best?

45:10Etienne FontanWhat's the best for me doesn't mean it's the best for you.

45:13BubblemanWhat's been happening is that we have normalized the idea that to gather you need to compete. Much like most normal people think that to gather means that you need to consume alcohol. And that is a normalization that some of them don't even know how to gather without fucking doing it. So we need to normalize how we gather. As a community and get rid of this fucking competition.

45:39BubblemanThe competition is what's hinged upon everything. All the, oh, I'm only going to get a booth because I have a chance to win. You know, that's the whole business aspect of the competition. And it's like if we could just sort of platform we use to gather at, I think that a lot of value could happen if we just made the focus. I mean, what do we always try to make the focus anyway?

46:04BubblemanPatience. It always seems to be about end users using cannabis and improving the quality of their life. That's what it seems like for me anyway.

46:11SpeakerHold up. Wait a minute. When we started going to the High Times Club, nobody said patient anything. I was the only idiot that left the 94 Cannabis Club to go get a doctor's note that year.

46:20BubblemanPeople looking to improve the quality of their life by being able to use cannabis safely and not being arrested was the start of it. Finding out that it was a preventative medicine turns everyone into a patient in my opinion. We're all endocannabinoid deficient. So it just seems like if we had a new reason to gather, one that wasn't all about a competition that everyone bitches, no one's even happy at the end anyway.

46:46Etienne FontanThey're all like, oh, it was fixed and fucking so-and-so with the PPMs and his shit was bunk and my shit was the best, obviously.

46:56BubblemanDissonance is so great at these events that even when people don't win, you can see them standing on the side of the stage winning in their own minds.

47:05SpeakerThey're killing me right now. Winning in their own minds. I can see their deflated expressions, at least out forward, you know. That's great. I've gotten to hand out the awards more than once, so I get to look at the front row and see who's waiting, thinking they're going to walk up. It's great.

47:23BubblemanFor instance, Todd, when we met in Scentsy Seeds Museum in Barcelona, and we, was it in Barcelona? No, it was in Amsterdam. The one we did, We met. Okay, well let's take the opposite from here. How would or should we gather? Well, I just said that. I just made a point. Like the last time we gathered for Howard and Mark Emery, when it was like this special occasion that they were getting inducted into this historical...

47:54BubblemanYou know, place, they were getting their plaques, they were getting presented with, it was kind of like a nice, like, you know, the, you know, you don't, you, you, the way you gather for people at their funeral and tell everyone how great they are, it was kind of like the opposite of that. It was like, well, these dudes were alive and people were giving them praise and it was a nice standing room only room and I'm telling you, I'm not the only one that if you, like, if you had your little cannabis pin that got you in, you felt like, fuck yeah, man, like, This is something special right here.

48:53BubblemanThroat punched.

48:56SpeakerSorry. Yeah, no. Sorry.

49:04BubblemanYeah, he's always getting awards. Anyway, that was one award I was happy not to get.

49:11BubblemanMaybe next year. Next year, Horatio.

49:15Etienne FontanHe had a good ones as well, the positive ones.

49:21BubblemanShould we create our own Mickey Awards? Do you guys want to do that? You guys can come up with my Mickey Award right now and fucking just tear me down like it's one of those comedy roastings. I don't mind.

49:30Etienne FontanThe only people that deserve awards are the people that are still in jail for non-violence. Mark, I had no idea you were such a masochist. I'm celebrating and while everybody's still in jail still seems kind of pointless.

49:41BubblemanWell, you know what? That sounds like a fun event, you know, the hash church roasting. We'll have to plan that one of these days, where we write some cruel, hateful, mean fucking things about one another, and then share them publicly with everyone to hear.

49:58Etienne FontanTodd will be our MC. Yeah, that'd be safer.

50:04BubblemanOh, wow. Hello there, Tom Alexander. Tom, you finally joined us!

50:09SpeakerTom! Howdy. Welcome to Hash Church, everybody. This is, wow, Tom, you know, this is the first time I've got to talk to you on video, but when I was much younger in the 80s, I used to read Sensimilia Tips like it was a religion, and I saved them, and there was no one or no publisher that guided my growing life more than really Sensimilia Tips post-Mel Frank.

50:33SpeakerMel Frank started it, and Sensimilia Tips polished it, and I can't thank you enough for joining us, Tom. Well, thank you.

50:41BubblemanAbsolutely, man. That's some historical stuff right there. I still have my Sensimilla tips in the collection.

50:48SpeakerYeah, I just heard some of the first issues went for $150 on eBay, so keep saving them. Wow, eh? Yeah, for sure. You know, I was so happy that you did the Facebook group. You know, the news that you've been posting has been so relevant, so interesting, and You know, you really have a knack for catching good information and redistributing it.

51:12BubblemanWhy don't you share that Facebook group with the people that are watching so they can check it out.

51:20SpeakerJust search Sensimia Tips Magazine and I don't have the, let me go and find it here.

51:32Etienne FontanTom, I just want to see if...

51:34SpeakerIt's in Facebook's groups. It's facebook.com slash groups slash a bunch of numbers, 630... Just send me all your tips, they'll find it, Tom. You don't have to do the numbers. Yeah, yeah. Send me a tips magazine and it comes up. You know, Tom, can I ask you a little bit, because you really were there for Operation Green Merchant, you know, and you really, unfortunately, suffered through the federal oppression against gardeners.

52:04SpeakerYou know, is that really, what ended Sensimelia Tips? You know, what changed things for you, if you don't mind us? Well, they went after all my advertisers, along with High Times, and, you know, I just couldn't financially do it anymore. So I started Growing Edge. About a year before Green Merchant because I saw the handwriting on the wall that they were going to do something. And so Growing Edge sort of took off where Tips left.

52:32SpeakerAnd actually Growing Edge was even more successful than Tips. It got up to 41,000 circulation.

52:40Etienne FontanTom, could you give people a history, your history real quick of what you have done? Yeah, what got you involved?

52:49SpeakerWell, I started growing in 1975 on Cape Cod, and I didn't know anything about, you know, cannabis. I just threw some seeds in from some ditch wheat from Mexico, and, you know, in late August when the mails exploded with yellow pollen, I thought I hit the jackpot, and, you know, then later on, it didn't give me more than a headache. Later on, we harvested some seeded bud, and And then I moved to Oregon in 1976 and grew some rather large crops.

53:26SpeakerI was manager of a farm that these Hawaiian growers had. And we put in over 4,000 plants. And then I found out later they were exporting it to Hawaii and getting 3,200 a pound, where Oregon was getting 1,000 a pound. So the following year, I struck out on my own and bought a Kubota tractor and put an acre in. And little did I know that they were watching me all summer.

54:00SpeakerAnd then on September 29, 1979, they popped me and they made a big deal. I was flashed on the front page getting handcuffed. And at my arraignment, Well, I discovered the wording of the search warrant was invalid. They put a southwest where a northwest should have been, and at my arraignment, my lawyer brought it up, and the judge took five minutes and threw out the case. Well, since they didn't need the evidence anymore, three sheriffs stole it and were subsequently arrested by the state police, and they pled no contest, and at their sentencing, the district attorney pled Mercy because they lost their careers and so the judge gave them three years probation and I got really pissed off and started tips.

54:57SpeakerI was going to do a book but my grower friend said do a good journal and they wanted outlet to write their experiences and it just took off. I went down to Humboldt Minasino and it immediately took off. I mean growers wanted an outlet to They really expressed themselves and it really took off. And then, you know, for ten years it was the journal. I mean, High Times was just fluff and it sort of forced High Times into being more cultivation-oriented.

55:35SpeakerAnd then when Green Merchant happened, it just put a nail in Tip's coffin.

55:46SpeakerI actually remember when I read the masthead of Grower's Edge and realized that you used the same PO box in Oregon for Sense of Million Tips and I was like, it's the same guy! I felt like everything in Grower's Edge was suddenly so much realer when I realized it was you. Actually, I had a good gig with Growing Edge. I went to 20 countries because I would go to International Society of Horticulture Science Which are all the college professors and researchers doing the latest research on controlled environment agriculture.

56:21SpeakerAnd so I went to all these conferences all over the world, Israel, South Africa, Peru, all over the place, Australia, New Zealand. And I would hook up with these crazy scientists from all over the world where we would get in all kinds of mischief. Somehow at conferences, the people that consume always somehow coagulate together. It's like a can of radar or something, you know. That's classic right there.

56:53SpeakerYou know, you have to be one of the most informed people in growing due to your career these past, you know, we're now three and a half decades of it, plus 40 years if you just count the growing. You know, what do you think of the hypocrisy in the hydroponic world towards us? I mean, you were almost like an undercover brother running around with Grower's Edge because, I mean, those that knew your history obviously knew your history, but a lot of...

57:20SpeakerI say it like this, you know, I represent Jack Harrah's book in The Emperor Wears No Clothes, and back at Champs in the 90s, we couldn't get a booth. Even though our book was the number one book sold at all the paraphernalia shops in the country... The bigotry was so thick we couldn't get the book because there was a pot leak on our cover. You know, how did you navigate the hypocrisy of the hydroponic world because it's thick?

57:42SpeakerWell, you know, I had a store until Green Merchant and the people in the industry felt targeted and so they felt the only way that they could stay in business was to sanitize and be hypocrites because, you know, They couldn't mention the M word or C word. And so, I mean, I understand it. It's the government. It's, you know, to supply growers and to stay in business, they had to do it.

58:20SpeakerI mean, I understand it because I felt the wrath. I had a garden store taken out in Green Merchant. I had one of the first indoor stores In Oregon, when I started TIPS, because when I went down the Humboldt and saw the grower supply stores, I said, oh, this is a gold rush. And so I started a store, too. And when they took my store, we were doing a million dollars in gross revenues.

58:47SpeakerWe were Hydrofarm's biggest retailer at the time. And so I understand. And you had to experience it to understand, I think. You know, what happened was they took out 62 stores, but for every store they took out, five more stores opened up, and so it sort of backfired on the government. I like how you put that. I think their oppression definitely backfired on them, and I... You know, look, I don't hold any of these people.

59:19SpeakerI know they're family men and women. They're trying to protect what they have, and the government is evil for doing it. I mean, there's no two questions about it. I mean, I say the hypocrisy and the bigotry in the hydroponic world because I've experienced it, but at the same time, there are a lot of companies that wish they could be forthcoming and transparent without the oppression, and You know, we're all trying to overcome that, growers especially.

59:44SpeakerYou know, we've all been slow to come out of the closet because they'll come kick our doors in, you know, and it's not an easy thing to navigate. You know, how do you feel now? I mean, you're kind of, you know, you've been re-emerging into the cannabis scene now, in my opinion, and you've been doing it really well. How do you feel about what you're seeing now, Tom?

1:00:04SpeakerWell, it's like the movie Back to the Future. I never thought I'd see it in my lifetime. And it's just, you know, I go to all these conferences as a... Companies that can't go, it's back to what the hypocrisy, they can't go or they can't display at the cannabis conferences. And so I'm being hired to go to these conferences, both the Wall Street vulture capitalist ones and the wake and bake ones like the recent Emerald Cup.

1:00:32SpeakerAnd I'm speaking at some of them also. It's basically... It's back to the future. I never thought I'd see it in my lifetime. I maintain that the final battle is going to be local, and we're seeing it. States that are legal, the vast majority of the land mass of the states, it's still prohibition. The local zoning ordinances and the public nuisance laws are the final prohibition battles because And now RICO, they're suing in Colorado using RICO statues.

1:01:11SpeakerI mean, they're using all these little, I don't know what the hell you'd call them, but they're using them to keep the local prohibition. Right, right. Here we are 19 years after passing 215 and we still have communities denying our right to constitutionally, you know, basically protected medicine. And the hypocrisy and bigotry is absolutely huge. I think that's what's changed for me where, you know, before I was trying to just teach people about hemp history and stuff.

1:01:40SpeakerNow really it's trying to teach people about the cultural oppression that we're all suffering under and how we need to fight for equal rights. I mean, we should be treated the same way as an owner of a wine company. We shouldn't be treated any different from any of these other companies that sell arguably more harmful substances for adults to consume. It's just overcoming the stigma and the propaganda for 80 years that people believe.

1:02:11SpeakerI mean, it's really hard to convince people that You know, the abusers are only 8%. There's studies that show cannabis abusers are way less than alcohol abusers, but the public won't believe that. They believe the propaganda that's been put forth. So it's going to be a long road. I mean, you know, some places in Mississippi just a few years ago overturned being dry and allowed alcohol. So, you know, it could be another 80 years before some places will see Prohibition of Cannabis Overturn.

1:02:51SpeakerYeah. Well, that's part of it. I don't think that long, though. And my optimism is that we're communicating at the speed of light now, that we're learning quicker than we've ever learned. We can share information. You know, when AT&I started our activism, we used to have to go to Kinko's and replicate pages from Jack's book to go pass out at colleges. And now, fortunately, I don't have to hang out at Kinko's anymore.

1:03:12SpeakerAnd I think that because that we're sharing information so fast, That's the key to our freedom. I mean, you can't really oppress informed people as easily as you can oppress people that are misinformed or fearful. Well, unfortunately, there's some people that have cement for brains. No matter what is put forth that's truthful, they don't believe it. I mean, we're seeing it in the Trump You know, Donald Trump phenomenon.

1:03:46SpeakerPeople are idiots. Simple as that. I want to say this, though. I think Donald Trump's the best thing that ever happened to the Republican Party because he's the most honest side of the GOP I have ever seen because most of the time they pretend they're not wealthy, they pretend they're just normal Joes, they pretend, you know, all they do is fake it. So for him to get up there and go, you know, basically, F you, F you, F you, you're cool, it's hilarious to me.

1:04:14SpeakerI can't stand anything he's saying, but I love that he's saying it because this is how those jerks really feel. This is what those jerks really think. And he is just vocalizing it. He's fulfilling what they created. Fox News wanted something like this, but now that they have it, they don't like it. Because he says what he's truly feeling and what a lot of the conservatives really think.

1:04:45SpeakerBut It wouldn't be good for our country if he became... I mean, the Republicans and Democrats are really two wings of the same party, so it's like, you know, I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter, and I don't think he would survive if he got elected. National security would take him out. But I think he's really the one that's being honest, that the plutocrats and oligarchs are controlling this country, and, you know, if If it continues, who knows where we'll all end up, Gulag or something.

1:05:24SpeakerWell, we made it through Reagan and Bush. You know, the CIA dynasty of the 80s and of the 90s didn't work out too well for them. You know, I always believed that Bush was the real president for 12 years. Like any good head of the CIA, he went and hired a great Hollywood actor to front him. So he could be president for the first two terms and hopefully the second two terms, I'm sure.

1:05:45SpeakerAnd he got three terms out of it, which is pretty good. But again, he was the head of the frigging CIA, so he wasn't the dumbest knife in the draw, the dullest knife in the draw. I don't know. I really think that a lot of what has been old school policy for the GOP is screwed for them now. Now they've got jerks like Donald Trump coming out and pulling their panties down right during their debates and they're going, please don't do this.

1:06:09SpeakerYou're on our team. And he's like, I'm not on your team. And I love this. I mean, I don't like anything they're saying. Of course, I'm kind of a Bernie Sanders supporter myself. I'm from New England, too. I grew up in Rhode Island. I didn't know that you started off in Cape Cod. And, you know, I've always thought the guy was great. He always came from a truthful space.

1:06:29SpeakerWhen he would say stuff, you know, my inner voice would go, wow, that's right. Vermont's going to be the first legislature in March to introduce legalization, and the governor said he'd sign it. So they could become the first state legislature-wise. And then Rhode Island's thinking of doing the same, so the East Coast may be more legislature-wise. We'll see.

1:06:58SpeakerDefinitely. I mean, when you look at the population, believe it or not, Rhode Island was the state with the highest amount of smokers per population capita, when number one was Rhode Island. And there's a huge density of people that use cannabis in New England, and I'm not surprised that we're seeing liberalization of the laws up there at all, honestly. Yeah, I agree.

1:07:26SpeakerWhere do you see things happening? Have you seen any advancements in the hydroponic industry since you've been back that have really made you go, wow? What's changed? I promoted hydroponics and got a lot of people into it, but I'm now a sun-grow organic in the soil guy. It's like, in a way, I regret promoting the chemicalization of it, and so I'm sort of torn. When you say that, you mean, well, the hydroponics side of it?

1:08:13SpeakerI'm sorry? No, with tips, too. I mean, we were promoting hydroponics big time. You know, we... Really, we're pushing it even with tips, but yeah, with growing edge more. And a lot of people, you know, are using hydroponics now because they read about it in our publications. But, you know, it's just another technique. But I'm a diehard organic in the soil, sun-grown. I mean... What's ironic is they're complaining now that indoor growing is using 1-2% of all the electricity in California and probably around the country.

1:09:03SpeakerBut with their local prohibition, they're forcing people indoors, continuing the proliferation of indoor. And so it shouldn't be blamed on the growers. It should be blamed on the prohibitionists. And it's their... They're forcing everybody to go indoors just like they did when the crackdown happened on outdoors. Absolutely. You know, one thing I want to say is please don't feel bad about your advocacy of indoor growing because if it wasn't for indoor growing through the 80s and 90s, a lot of us wouldn't have been able to make the varieties that are currently available because we would have all got busted.

1:09:41SpeakerI mean, if it wasn't for the advancements in indoor technology, we would not have seen the crossbreeding that really happened before. With cannabis, especially in places like the Netherlands and all over Europe because they just don't have the climate to grow cannabis outdoors and even in greenhouses without a lot of money and heaters and all sorts of stuff. So we kind of needed it and there's still a place.

1:10:04SpeakerI mean, but you can grow indoors in soil under lights. I mean, I grew organically in dirt most of my life. ATN would tell you. We were dirt bags back in Bel Air, you know. I used to buy it by the pound. The time's going to come, though, and it's happening in Colorado already, that it's going to be grown in greenhouses and outdoors, because the price point for indoor is going to be much, the cost to produce the goods are going to be much higher than outdoor, and they're already seeing it in Colorado.

1:10:34SpeakerThere was a 50-acre greenhouse growing up right now outside Denver, and just The costs are going to be so much cheaper. The initial outlay is going to be more because you've got to put up the greenhouse and all that, but the industry in five to ten years will be outdoor in greenhouses or outdoor. I mean, outside Spokane, there's huge farms that are totally outdoors, not even in greenhouses.

1:11:04SpeakerOkay.

1:11:08BubblemanI was literally talking about this with Tony just the other day in regards to some of these people building these gigantic indoor facilities right now. I wonder if they're going to get caught with their pants down when the industry shifts to the field, to the greenhouse, and there are these multi, multi-million dollar indoor grows. It's a lot of money to put into a building. I think it's greenhouse and field as well.

1:11:33SpeakerYeah, they're going to get caught.

1:11:37SpeakerWith bad investments because the industry's going out to greenhouses and out in the outdoor. I mean, with light deprivation, you can get three or four crops a year in a greenhouse. There's now an award ceremony up in Humboldt, Golden Tarp Awards. Last year had 2,100 people. Some of the product was just as good as any indoor, you know, that What amazed me at the Emerald Cup three weeks ago was the branding.

1:12:11SpeakerThe brands from Humboldt, Sonoma, Mendocino, what they're doing is they're using the Emerald brand and it's like Emerald Family Farms, Emerald Growers, Emerald, everything's got Emerald in it and the government created that brand and now the growers are running with it. Hmm.

1:12:33SpeakerI invited Tim to join us too. At some point he said he would. I think the Emerald Cup is one of the best events in the whole world, to be honest. It feels like such a community event, like a country fair, and there are no police present, there's no oppression. It's really the best feeling. I've gone to a lot of European events. I mean, I've put on events.

1:12:57SpeakerIt's hard to get that vibe. You can design it, but it doesn't mean it's going to feel like that. And the way that the Emerald Cup feels, it feels like the future to me. It feels like freedom. I can't say that enough. It's the best conference out there. The Las Vegas one in November is the best. I call them the greed rushers and vulture capitalists. It's a whole different mindset.

1:13:30SpeakerAlthough this year they had over 6,000 people and you could tell the traditionalists were there in t-shirts so you could identify who's who and there were more than ever in Vegas because they realized that those Wall Street types are going to be part of the industry and they want to see what's going on and so More and more of our people are going in. It's a culture clash.

1:13:56SpeakerThe Wall Street guys, they want nothing to do, most of them, with people that have been in the industry for decades because they say, oh, you're criminals. And well, they're breaking federal law, too. So they don't consider themselves that, but they are, too. But it's going to be an interesting thing. Like I said before, I go to collect intelligence.

1:14:22SpeakerAnd it's an interesting phenomenon because that segment has grown really fast. And the companies that were in Vegas, the vulture capitalists had already invested almost $200 million in various businesses. They even had a shark tank workshop where five venture capitalists were up on the stage and five already established cannabis companies were pitching their product for five minutes. And then at the end of the thing, they picked one and gave them like $100,000, not gave them, invested $100,000 on the spot.

1:15:00SpeakerAnd, you know, and the workshops are different, like how to create a business plan that's different from a regular business plan, how to pitch to investors. And this year was the first time they had a cultivation track where they actually had cultivation information. And, you know, they're They're worth going to, even though they're really expensive. You know, the tickets are like $700 to $900, but they're worth going to find out what the other segment of the industry is doing.

1:15:38BubblemanInteresting. And where was that event?

1:15:40SpeakerThat's in Vegas. They have one in Orlando in the spring, and then it's put on by the... Publication that does the monthly magazine, I forget what it's called. I think it's on a business journal or something. They're out of Rhode Island. It's Anne Holland Ventures. It's the corporate. But they're making millions. What's ironic is these vulture capitalists are so greedy, they don't pay any of the speakers travel expenses.

1:16:14SpeakerThey just give them a free registration. Whereas I call them the wake and bake conferences. They pay their speakers. They pay their expenses. And so these Wall Street types don't pay, but they get top-notch speakers. They get lawyers and top-notch speakers, but they don't pay them. And then places like the Emerald Cup and the Northwest Cannabis Classic, they pay their speakers. It's part of the greed culture to get as much bang for your buck as you can.

1:16:50BubblemanYeah, I've sort of seen that through a lot of these award shows that are being put on, that it's sort of this... You know, you get invited to speak, and then you win an award, but you've got to go pick up your award, but the tickets cost a couple hundred dollars each, but they'll give you one ticket for free. So it's kind of like set up, I mean, I saw how my kids set it up with, we have a local theater, and the theater does, they'll have some old band, like the Nylons, come sing, and no one's going to go see the Nylons, so then they invite all the school choirs to sing with the Nylons, And then all the people in the audience are the parents of the children who are singing at the concert.

1:17:34BubblemanAnd it's this beautiful business thing that you just can't help but see how clear it's like, oh, okay, so you're just setting this up like it's a business. And, of course, once you win your award, you're like, oh, I want to go to all those events. And then they hit you with another email saying, hey, you know, there's going to be the Nationals next month, and you're entered to win.

1:17:54BubblemanIt's just like, holy shit, it's this never-ending stream of awards that people are being given in the cannabis industry now. And I kind of feel that it's pretty much like what you just mentioned.

1:18:08SpeakerI wish I could get an award for leaving my e-mail on every night because I would win all the time. I don't know. I would be a close second. I might be a third. I'm so good at that, though. Really? You guys do it too? Damn.

1:18:22BubblemanThey might need a special category for me because I leave two on.

1:18:27SpeakerYeah, I do too. Upstairs and both my desks often. I turned the one upstairs off today and I was like, God damn it. And then the one I needed wasn't on. How do you go figure? What do you think of dabs, Tom? Obviously, we went from cannabis to concentrates and extracts. What do you think of the new industry? Well, I'll tell you what. I've had two experiences with them, and they weren't good.

1:18:49SpeakerI was at Jorge Cervantes' 60th birthday party, and he had this, I forget his name, but he's one of the dab connoisseurs, and he had some that was 90% THC, and luckily my wife didn't do any. I did three hits, and I was turned white, passed out, puked, missed Jorge's party, so For me, it's like comparing beer to 200-proof alcohol, and it's just too strong for me.

1:19:22SpeakerBut I go to all these shows, and everybody's doing them like it's nothing, except a couple of people have fallen off their stools and stuff. But, you know, the prohibitionists are going to use it as, oh, see, it's dangerous, but It's just an evolution and it's the way it's going. I'm a traditionalist. I still do flowers and joints. Me too. You know what, I'll say this though, Tom.

1:19:51SpeakerYou know, initially, I was one of the people that was turned off to the very first word in BHO, butane. But the more I learned about it, and then when I started experiencing people, one of my close friends is Elvie Musica. She gets marijuana from the federal government. She has glaucoma. She would come over to my house and smoke all my shit, seriously. Chain smoking joints every time you saw her.

1:20:12SpeakerShe now dabs, and she's content. And I had never seen cannabinoids get her to a place where she was content. Most of the time she would be like, you know, trying to stack them, if you will, join after join after join. So I think that dabs are showing us two things. I think they're showing us the effectivity of cannabinoids, and in this case, some cases terpenes, now that we're starting to acknowledge those two.

1:20:38SpeakerAnd they're showing us the safety because if any of what the government had said, you know, 70s and 80s, if this isn't the marijuana you used to have, it's very high potency now. Well, guess what? These kids are doing dabs of 90% THC, no ER visits, none of the shows got guys falling down and dying. I mean, really, it's showing us that even in its most concentrated and potent forms, cannabis is super safe.

1:21:05BubblemanI would only add that butane is only one method of acquiring dabs and there are solventless methods to acquire those same dabs and it's unfortunate, Tom, that the person that gave you your first dab Thank you so much for joining us.

1:21:41BubblemanThank you so much for joining us today.

1:22:12SpeakerGrind it up, decarb it for a half an hour in the oven, then put it in a hop bag that you put hops in to make beer, put a wide mouth jar and put a 750 milliliter tequila or vodka and put it in the freezer for two or three days and it's infused. It's a different way to consume and you don't have to wait an hour, hour and a half for edibles.

1:22:40BubblemanHave you seen this new process, rosin, where they're squeezing with a hair straightener and getting gabs?

1:22:46SpeakerYeah, my wife won't let me use hers, so I've got to find a used one. It's pretty incredible.

1:22:52BubblemanYou've definitely got to try it. I'm telling you, to squeeze gabs out of your flowers, it's definitely a neat experience, to say the least.

1:23:02BubblemanHey, how's it going, Tony? Welcome, buddy.

1:23:09SpeakerI'm sorry, it was on mute, how are you guys doing today?

1:23:14BubblemanI'm doing well. We've had a nice relaxing morning here with the 750 live, or sorry, 775 live viewers. That was like a 25 viewer jump right there. That was trippy.

1:23:26SpeakerYeah, I usually don't promote products, and nobody gave me this. I actually bought it in full, but... I do want to share this little thing that I thought was pretty neat. We were talking about emails. Especially on the go, I don't know if you've seen this little battery operated dab rig. Not too shabby. You can hit it a few times and it gets to like 580 and you hit it a second time it gets to 7 something and a third time it gets to 9 something but it's pretty neat for on the go or if you're like You know, don't have the whole setup or don't want the whole rig setup, you know?

1:24:09SpeakerYou're just kind of like in the lab or by yourself or something.

1:24:14Etienne FontanTony, what's it called?

1:24:17SpeakerUh, this little dab-a-doo bolt. It's magnetic. It, uh, comes apart. It has a little case. Like I said, I did not get this. I actually paid full price for it. Um... Not a promo for them, but I thought it was pretty neat. It comes with a little case. It even has a little spot that I put my little terpenes in it.

1:24:42SpeakerIt has a perfect spot for it.

1:24:47SpeakerAnd this was the kind of cool thing, a little magnetic dabber. This thing's magnetic, so it's got a carb cap. And you can... You know, every time you have a little... The one thing I noticed that's cool about magnetic was... You can rotate it while it's in here. So it's like something you can kind of rotate around while it's still in your hand. I don't know. I thought this thing...

1:25:11BubblemanYour version makes me a little nervous. I'm not going to lie on the highly educated for this reason that if someone had it loose and they didn't really pay attention until it fell, and if this titanium chopper falls on my mothership, it'll break. This is awesome stuff.

1:25:32SpeakerWe just got going around.

1:25:34BubblemanAbsolutely brave.

1:25:36SpeakerWell, this is, um, what's neat about this is that it fits right in the glass. So, it's not for like a mothership or anything, but for this little, this little device, it fits right in there perfectly, and then you just, uh, you know, it doesn't ever get hot and it never gets dirty.

1:25:56BubblemanAnd what are you toking out of there today?

1:25:59SpeakerUm, actually, I got, um, A friend of mine came by yesterday to drop off some Pennywise and some other products from my friend at the village. He brought me some ACDC flower rosin, which is pretty good. I've been seeing a lot of CBD flower rosin. This stuff's pretty good, pretty clean.

1:26:35SpeakerGive respect.

1:26:35BubblemanI don't want to hear it.

1:26:37SpeakerOh, that looks really nice. Yeah, right? Flower rosin, DCDC.

1:26:42BubblemanGolden delicious. Squeezed right out of the flowers.

1:26:47SpeakerYeah.

1:26:48BubblemanSo what are the, I kind of have a question for Tom in regards to him going on about how he prefers, you know, the organic, the earth grown, the outdoor. What are some of the differences that you've noticed in your flowers when you went from your indoor hydroponically grown to your outdoor or greenhouse grown? What is the preference that you, what is it that's in those plants that you prefer now?

1:27:16BubblemanOr is it just really more of a, you know, to not use chemicals?

1:27:20Etienne FontanTom, you need to unmute yourself.

1:27:33BubblemanHey, I can probably do it. Let me see. Boom, boom, there it is. Let me see.

1:27:42BubblemanSometimes it lets me and sometimes it doesn't let me. It won't let me unmute him. There it is. There it is. Oh, he still, I still can't hear him.

1:27:56Etienne FontanWe can't hear you, Tom.

1:28:00BubblemanThat's so strange, man. Oh, there we go. Now I heard you.

1:28:03SpeakerGo ahead. I don't know. I didn't mute myself. Anyway, it's just I've been an organic grower personally all my life. I grew up on my grandfather's farm in the summer, and so I just have a preference for organic. But I also think the flavor, the terpenes,

1:28:28SpeakerI just think are better, but that's my personal preference. I don't condemn anybody. Everybody's got their own preferences and stuff. I grew mango tango this summer, and it's just a really nice variety that has flavors of peaches, mangoes, and tangerines. I don't grow anything that's skunk. I don't smoke anything that's skunk, mainly because five years ago, I got sprayed by a skunk. You know, I just, I think that's one of the reasons why they're using public nuisance laws and zoning laws to ban it because whole neighborhoods are smelling like skunks.

1:29:11SpeakerAnd I just think people should grow sweet smelling, you know, people don't complain when things smell fruity, flowery. I grew another variety that smells like bazooka bubble gum. Everybody loves it, you know. It's part of Straight gardening, people that don't grow cannabis, they grow plants that have an aromatic smell to them, they have actual fragrance gardens, and I think when prohibition is finally lifted, people's backyards, they won't grow them in a front yard because they'll get ripped off, but backyards are going to have cannabis in the landscape, and You know, it's going to be used for both the color and the fragrance.

1:30:01SpeakerAnd, you know, that'll be five, ten years from now, although people are doing it already around their pool areas, around their outdoor living areas, you know, sitting around outside and having a fragrant smell of cannabis is really enjoyable.

1:30:19Etienne FontanTom, I have a question for you. If you were left with only one shed to grow, does it matter what time? You know, 70s, 80s, 90s, what genetic? What genetic would you choose?

1:30:32SpeakerOh, man. Well, it'd be sativa dominant because, you know, I just like the sativa buzz. It's cerebral. It gives me a little more uplifting. So it'd be some sativa variety. Like I said, I've been liking mango tango from Elemental Seeds in San Jose. And

1:30:57SpeakerThen a dispensary owner gave me some that he didn't know what they were, but they turned out to be smelling like bazooka bubblegum, so I just call it bazooka. I don't know, there's so many different varieties now, but Jorge Cervantes thinks there's only a few varieties and everybody names it their own name, so it's hard to say.

1:31:25SpeakerJorge's enjoying the winter in Barcelona. He lives in Sonoma, California six months out of the year and then six months in Barcelona.

1:31:35BubblemanThat's definitely a good place to spend six months a year in. Yeah.

1:31:40SpeakerYou know, I make the comparison, Tom, that there's only 12 notes in music. And everything you've heard from symphonies to rap music contains those 12 notes mixed together. And a lot of what we look at is the same strains mixed together. Rob Clark did a wonderful, it's the best part of the book, but it was the introduction to Canna Bible 1. And he talks about the different strains that came to Holland back in the early 80s and the first seed companies and the evolution of land races going from, you know, Acapulco Gold, you know, to becoming Citral when mixed with Afghan And the progression of how we named our cannabis.

1:32:19SpeakerAnd it's really, he has two charts, the first seed companies and the second seed companies, which really was the 80s and the 90s in Amsterdam or in the Netherlands. And it really is a good move, a good way to look at how we have moved from land races to the current varieties we have now. And I do tend to agree with Jorge to the degree that people do go buy seeds from Sensi or wherever, And then bring them back and, you know, name them, you know, Todd's Finest, you know, or some bullshit.

1:32:49SpeakerSo I think that happens more than it doesn't happen. And I think with the DNA sequencing, we're going to see the relations to all these cultivars, if you will, in a more dimensional fashion. So we will be able to tell they all came back to this or that or the other thing. Yeah, and Rob's not the only one doing it. I heard of three other groups doing it, and there's probably even more.

1:33:11SpeakerSo a lot of people are doing it for whatever reason. They can't patent it until it's off federal schedule, but for whatever reason, they're doing it. Well, there's a lot of reasons to do it. I mean, you know, I think the Philo's Project out of Holland is, you know, it's just the evolution of their research, if you will. Are you familiar with Rob's new book, Cannabis, Evolution, and Ethnobotany?

1:33:37SpeakerAm I what? Am I familiar with it? Yeah, his new book. I haven't read it, no, but I'm familiar with it, yeah. It's only 350,000 words. Don't worry. It's an overnighter. It took him 17 years to write, and it really is an interesting study. And in it, he comes forward with basically saying that sativa, we're using our nomenclature wrong. We're calling industrial varieties of hemp, you know, that are sativa, basically hemp, and what we're calling sativa really is Indo-European industrial varieties, and then everything he's basically saying is indica, because indica literally meant over like India.

1:34:13SpeakerAnd he's basically saying that up north where you got, you know, the Afghans and the Hindu Kush mountains are as much what we call indica as the stuff near Goa, which is like what we would call a, you know, we would mistakenly call it sativa, but it's never been used for hemp over in, you know, England, you know, it's never made ropes in Spain. It's been in India its whole life.

1:34:33SpeakerIt is very much indica, but it's a narrow leaf drug variety. And I think that he's making a good point because I think that for growers it was confusing. What is a sativa? What is an indica? What is all this stuff? And I think we were trying to use words of descriptions of use as opposed to words of descriptions of how it grows. You know, for instance, northern varieties would harvest faster than tropical varieties, which would take longer to harvest.

1:34:58SpeakerThat just makes sense. You know, but when people are saying indica sativa, it's all a big mix, I think. Have you been reading any of the new taxonomy? No. Right now it's Tim Blake's book and then I got so many things. I'm starting a tourism company and we're going to go not only to cannabis farms but to wineries, breweries, fine restaurants and stay at Bud and Breakfast.

1:35:27SpeakerSo I'm busy doing that and I don't have much time for reading. Well, that's fantastic. It's nice that you're re-involved in everything that's happening. People like you and Mel Frank and Rob were really, in a way, our silent teachers through your publications. Well, I wanted to fight the government, but my ex-wife and my wife at the time, now ex-wife, we had two small kids and the government actually threatened to put her in jail.

1:35:58SpeakerThey said, your kids will have no parents. I mean, they really pressured Thank you so much for having me.

1:36:31SpeakerTell him, so for a week his phone was ringing off the hook, and he told my lawyer, tell that fucking asshole if he wants to have his freedom that he'll take our offer, and their offer was they get to keep the stuff, you know, they took like $70,000 worth of inventory, or we're going to charge them with criminal conspiracy, which if they had a case they would have charged me with criminal conspiracy.

1:36:58SpeakerBecause I did tips and had a store and told people how to grow and blah, blah, blah. Even though in the store, if anybody ever mentioned cannabis, they'd get thrown out of the store. Well, my managers didn't live up to their instructions and here's how they took my store, which is typical of the fucking DEA. They cased the store for a month and Found out that my manager and one other employee was a Vietnam vet.

1:37:34SpeakerAnd so they came in the store on Green Merchant Day and said, we want some lights and hydroponics to grow cannabis. We're from Vietnam, blah, blah, blah. So my manager from Vietnam vet said, well, I can't sell you that. And instead of throwing them out of the store, starts talking about Vietnam. And for a half an hour, they were talking about Vietnam. At the end of a half an hour, they go, we changed our mind.

1:37:57SpeakerWe want to grow tomatoes. And so My manager, idiot, sold them the lights and hydro to grow tomatoes. Well, the judge said my store manager should have known that they were lying and he shouldn't have sold them the light. Well, they can lie saying they grow cannabis, but they can lie about tomatoes and we're supposed to believe which one. It's like, what the hell? So using that one little transaction, they stole my store.

1:38:28SpeakerAnd at the time, I had been on Donnie U, Geraldo, all the major TV shows, so I was sort of a national celebrity because I would debate the assholes face to face. And, you know, my wife, when they threatened to put her in jail, said, give it up. And so, you know, I was willing to go to jail fighting them, but I didn't want to lose my family, so I gave it up because I could have traveled the country and raised a lot of money to fight them.

1:38:57SpeakerBut I probably would end up in jail, so... I actually did tour the country, raised a lot of money and fought them, and I did end up in prison, so... I even spoke at Woodstock in 99. I literally got to walk out on stage and say, Welcome to Woodstock. My name's Todd McCormick. I'm with Spitfire Tour. That was the only time I ever got stage fright. That's a lot of fucking people.

1:39:17SpeakerBut, you know, the louder you get, the harder they come down on you, in all honesty. I mean, since I've been out of prison, Tom, I've been prosecuted three times, just for growing weak. I mean, I'm currently being prosecuted because I wouldn't cooperate with them against Richard Lee in the Oxendam case. So I've been, you know, I go to court all the time. It's just part of my life.

1:39:34SpeakerYou know, last time I saw the arresting officer, I asked him, have you seen our movie, The Culture High? And of course he said, I can't watch movies like that, McCormick. Come on, it's research. I filed my DEA freedom information about three months ago, four months ago. Got it back. You get two hours of free research, and I was expecting all the green merchant stuff back. What they gave me were files from seven years ago when I wasn't growing, I wasn't doing anything illegal, nothing, and they teamed up with a Corvallis detective to physically surveil my home, my office, probably tap my phone.

1:40:15SpeakerThey didn't say that, but I would imagine they did that too, which just goes to show they have a bug up their ass for me for some reason. And, you know, this is like, it was 2008, so that was like, you know, almost 20 years after Green Merchant, and they still thought I was this, you know, criminal. And it's crazy. They're just nuts. Hey, but I've been, I play ice hockey, that's why I haven't been on your show, and I've When I lived back on Cape Cod, ice hockey is the only place you can get in a fight with a cop and not get arrested.

1:41:01SpeakerSo we would play this police team, police and firemen, and we were constantly getting in fights with them. They actually respected us more because we fought with them than teams that didn't fight with them. It's going to sound like a fucked up thing to say for as many times I have been arrested. I'm not anti-cop. You know, somebody steals my truck or breaks into my house, I'm not calling a fucking fireman.

1:41:27SpeakerYou know? I'm calling a cop. And I think what's fucked up is society makes them enforce or coerces them to enforce shitty laws against us. And I mean, I think we need to start thinking clearer. My message at Woodstock back then was, why aren't you people protesting the drug war? The drug war is being waged against you. You people, you Woodstock that used to voice against the wars in Vietnam, they just turned the war around and they're coming after you, your homes, your paraphernalia, and what's in your pocket.

1:41:56SpeakerThat's the problem. Too many people are complacent and they're not standing up and saying, I won't put up with this. We need the type of energy that we saw in the 50s and 60s where whites and blacks were getting sugar dumped on them and mustard and ketchup and they were sitting at lunch counters saying, fuck you, arrest me. That's really what we need to make the change.

1:42:18SpeakerIt's not going to be passive. It's not going to be from a bunch of attorneys sitting around saying, Listen, let's be civil disobedient in a civil way. No, it's not going to fucking work. You actually have to stand up for your rights, or you're not going to have any rights to stand up for. At least that's my opinion. And that's why I kind of cheerily went to jail, because I was like, all my heroes went to jail.

1:42:39SpeakerGandhi went to jail, Martin Luther King went to jail. Everyone cool that I thought was cool at some point said, fuck you, I'd rather go to jail than live under your boot. I went to a college. I went to business administration. I went to a college. One of their degree programs was law enforcement. And I played hockey and football in college. And a lot of guys were law enforcement majors.

1:43:03SpeakerAnd they'd be fucked up at parties on coke. Some of them dealt coke and other drugs. And some of them were bookies. And some of them were even pimps, pimping out women and stuff. And I'd be at parties and they'd be all fucked up and I'd go, why do you want to be a cop? And at least half of the people I asked, half, said so I can control people or so I can beat the shit out of people.

1:43:28SpeakerAnd I played hockey with cops as recently as five, six years ago up in Oregon. And with the cops, the detectives and patrol officers hate each other for some reason. I don't know. Competition, I guess. But I asked the detective that played hockey with us, why do cops feel that they've got to beat the shit out of them? I told him this story about college. And he said, well, the vast majority of them come out of the armed service, the Army, Navy, Marines.

1:44:04SpeakerAnd they come from places like Vietnam back in the 60s and 70s to Iraq and Afghanistan today, where it's a real war. And they just translate that to the cannabis war or whatever war they declare on people. And as we're seeing it today, I mean, right now in Oregon, these white crazy motherfuckers have taken over a federal building in remote eastern Oregon. It's the Bundy Ranch people.

1:44:35SpeakerAnd the cops are doing nothing because they're armed with M16s and shit, but black You know, drug dealers, they shoot on sight. I mean, it's a mentality in law enforcement that's got to change.

1:44:56SpeakerI don't disagree at all with what you said. I mean, you know, it was weird. Obviously, I did five years in prison, and one of the things that was reoccurring from the prison guards is they said it was easier for them to talk to the prisoners than it was their co-workers. Because there was so much animosity and worry that this guy's going to turn you in to try to get a promotion.

1:45:17SpeakerThere was no form of feeling of goodwill there. And I felt bad for them. I'd hate to work in a place where you don't trust the people you work with. Uh, completely.

1:45:27BubblemanI mean, sounds fucked up, but... Well, and generally the perspective of the people, I mean, I grew up in a police family. My mom works for 911. My sister works for 911. Her husband is a cop. Their dog was a cop. Um, all cops, except for my father, who was the fire chief of the fire department. And, uh, what I found was, was that it was definitely, uh, a sort of, you know, hard to explain, but just...

1:45:57BubblemanI agree and I disagree at the same time. I mean, you know, when you're in the family, when you're in it, you see it a little bit differently. They definitely were out there beating people and doing different things, but not as... Maybe pronounced as it is down in the US, you know?

1:46:13SpeakerI'm not going to sound like a jerk right now, but you know what? Someone tries to steal your shit, maybe they could use their ass beat. You know, some of these people, I've been arrested so many fucking times, never got beat up, never got maced, never got treated like shit. Actually, they've always been as nice to me as I've been to them. And, you know, to me, you can start personal battles with the guy, the pawn, in front of you, or you don't have to.

1:46:37SpeakerTo me, I'm fighting a bigger problem. It's the bureaucracy. It's not the little pawns that they send with guns. It's the fucking prosecutors or the people that sign the warrants and say, go harass him. Because, truthfully, that's my problem. It isn't the dude in front of me. If I see it as the guy in front of me, I'm really short-sighted. So I've treated them, in a sense, with the respect I hope they treat me back.

1:46:59SpeakerAnd I've never got my ass kicked. I've never been punched by a cop. I've never been maced by a cop. But I've also never fucking been rude to a cop either. I've never questioned their authority, their ability to pull out a nightstick and beat my ass because I know what's gonna happen. And a lot of the guys I met in jail that got their asses kicked are fucking jerks.

1:47:17SpeakerThey mouth off to everybody. They don't know how to act. And I'm not surprised that some guy at the end of his shift didn't want to hear it and cracked them. I'm really not. And, you know, this is where I think a lot of people need to, you know, stop acting like assholes and then pretend they're the victim of police violence. If you're a fucking asshole, you're probably going to get your ass kicked because we're all human and we only have so much patience with people.

1:47:41SpeakerYou know, granted, there are assholes that are sadists and go in and kick down our doors and shoot our dogs in the name of a pot raid, but truthfully, You know, that's, to me, a minimal compared to what they're really dealing with. And after five years in prison, I'll be really honest and say, I'm glad we have cops, I'm glad we have jails, because I met a lot of assholes in prison.

1:48:03SpeakerI really did. A lot of guys, I hope, never get out of fucking jail. They think doing really whack shit is just totally a good Friday night. And fuck them, you know? So that's kind of how I feel. Maybe I'm a little jaded from my half a decade sitting around prisoners, but... There's definitely people that belong in prison, no doubt about it. But it's not the cannabis people.

1:48:26Etienne FontanDefinitely not. I think we can all agree on that one, 100%.

1:48:32BubblemanWell, 2016 is, you know, potentially got the ability to be a greater cannabis...

1:48:45SpeakerI believe that we're moving at a very fast clip right now. I think sharing information. You know, sharing information was the key to my success back then. When I first stumbled on my first Sense Amelia tips, I thought it was not real. I thought, this has to be a parody or something. And no, there wasn't a joke. It was really, really teaching me how to cultivate cannabis really expertly.

1:49:07SpeakerAnd I couldn't believe it. I literally read it upstairs alone because it was like porn. You know, I had to hide it. I had to hide it. What are you reading? Nothing. Comic book.

1:49:19SpeakerThose first issues were so funky, and I didn't know anything about publishing. I learned by my bootstraps, and after 10 years of doing it, it became pretty professional, but then it got nipped in the bud, so to speak. Well, you know, though, Tom, you kept it going. Flip that around, 18. You kept it going with Grower's Edge, and I was still tuned into that, too. I mean, If it wasn't for indoor growing, I think we wouldn't have had what we had.

1:49:47SpeakerATN is showing an ad that really a long time ago I wrote you about, but it's got to be one of the first closed-loop extractors ever advertised, the Honey Bee 454. You can run a pound of cannabis through it, but it was obviously an alcohol distillation. But to think now that we're using stuff that looks similar to this, you really were bringing us information that was decades ahead of its time.

1:50:13SpeakerIn many respects. Well, that guy, he's long deceased, but I forget his name. He was in Junction City, Oregon, near Eugene. He was selling HID lights before anybody in Oregon. I mean, he was one of the first, probably around 78 or 79, back when the only store was in Seattle, Indoor Sun Shop. And he was ahead of his time. He was like a Survivalist type guy, but he was really ahead of his time.

1:50:50SpeakerIt is cool. I mean, did you see much alcohol? I mean, back then it would have been honey oil that was made with that machine. It would have been a goopy kind of still, you know, it's not like the shatter or the butters that we have now. I mean, alcohol extraction just can't accomplish what butane or, you know, does or propane does. Mostly butane. But it was definitely the beginning of the start of people looking at concentrates on a different or more scientific level.

1:51:21SpeakerAs we speak, I'm shooting the entire, the Secret Cup annuals. So this, I don't know if you're familiar with the Secret Cup, Tom, but believe it or not, there's so many extraction artists, they're called. Around the country that for the last three years my friends have been putting on a community event that is really for the people that make it. So you will give them 20 grams to compete, but then you get back about 12 grams in a kit with everybody's samples.

1:51:48SpeakerSo only the competitors are the judges. So of course everybody's trying to vote for their own shit. But what's funny is a lot of times they can't even identify their own stuff when it's in a mix of... Other people's stuff. And I've seen it and it's really kind of cool. It's the first competition I've seen that I thought was really, well, Emerald Cup's cool too, but this was really honest.

1:52:12SpeakerI mean, it's just, everyone's got the self-interest of themselves, but a lot of times they vote for what was best anyway because they're like, man, that was a fire, fuck it. And I think it's really cool. I'm going to be posting all the photos after Hash Church on my Instagram, but It's fantastic to see how different it looks, and I think it's funny how it all looks like gold, if you will.

1:52:33SpeakerYou know? Of all the colors for cannabis to come out with, it comes out with these beautiful hues that have been going on watches and fancy things forever. You know, like, I think cannabis is the biggest jokester. It's like, oh, you like gold? I got gold too.

1:52:53BubblemanAll the colors of the rainbow.

1:52:56SpeakerReally it is.

1:53:01BubblemanWell, I think it's time for a little rosin dip. I'm very low on terps, I have to say.

1:53:06SpeakerMy terp scene is... May I ask you, Tom, have you been exposed to terpenes much? One of our friends here that's on, Tony, kind of specializes in terpene extraction. And what do you think of the terpene scene that's kind of evolving now? Well, I got introduced by Jorge. He had a friend, a woman friend from Holland, I forget her name. She's sort of like the queen of terpenes, and...

1:53:30SpeakerThen the dab guy that was at his party had a, he said 100 pounds and it made about a, I don't know, about a four or five ounce liquid terpene. Kenny, it was 78 pounds and he got three grams of terps out of it. Yep, he has a provisional patent actually on the extraction process between vacuum ovens and vacuum pumps right now. Yeah, Kenny, vacuum pump technologies, that's who you met.

1:53:59SpeakerThat was the only experience I had. I'm sort of, you know, I'm not, I'm just a messenger. I'm not really a cutting edge guy. You've been a great messenger, Tom, for a long time. I mean, honestly, I've been one of... You and Mel Frank and Rob Clark and Ed to a lesser degree, I was a huge fanboy. In all honesty, there was not a lot of places, like you said, high times was fluff.

1:54:31SpeakerAnd there was not a lot of places to get really substantial information about cannabis. I mean, the first time I saw an Ebb and Flow table was that issue where you went to Holland or whatever and it was the SSSC crew and you were showing the Rockwell cubes on the 4x8 and It looked like Mars to me, to be honest. It looked so far out, you know, this drip irrigation technology.

1:54:57SpeakerIt was awesome, honestly. I can't thank you enough. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have had a career in growing if it wasn't for guys like you. It would have been somebody else. I was just in the right place at the right time.

1:55:13SpeakerThank you, though. It was a fun ride. I mean, I got so many stories from taking trips. Every three months I would go from Corvallis down to Santa Cruz and go through, you know, take three weeks and just drive through the hills and get tips in the stores. I mean, it was in all the corner stores in Humboldt, Mendocino, all the way down to Santa Cruz. A couple times I went all the way down to L.A., So it started out as a West Coast, but then it got over into Europe and East Coast of the U.S. and it became a worldwide phenomenon.

1:55:48SpeakerIt had a life of its own. Well, I think what Todd's saying is important. I have a lot of young people that try to say, oh, you're a guru or whatever to me, and I'm like, I'm just a young guy who's 38. I was like, guys like you and Mel and Sam and Like what Todd was saying, in 1996 when I first started growing, it was like secret porn.

1:56:14SpeakerLike if you got any kind of literature, you were literally like, you know, even in the closest room you're like reading something and you're still like looking around the room to see if anyone was lurking. And I remember like in my room in college like one time somebody went on my computer And they went on a High Times website, and I was growing in my house, and I immediately had to shut down.

1:56:43SpeakerThat's how paranoid we were. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe you went online to look up information. I was like, that's it, got to break down immediately, like the next day. So, you know, I thank you, and I hope that people that are out there understand, like, you know, the risk that guys like you took, and... The hope that you gave the younger generation like myself and people that are on this panel and Todd and even Todd, you know, going through jail and everything.

1:57:17SpeakerThose things don't go unnoticed and they're inspiration to all of us and they give us hope, you know. Well, thank you.

1:57:26Etienne FontanAppreciate that. I got to jump on that too, Tom. If it wasn't for people like you, Well, yeah, you may have been in the right place at the right time, but you fucking put your ass and your name on the line, and you took your lumps and bumps, and it's very hard. People don't realize how hard those bumps are until they're hit square on the head with it, so way to go to not only take your lumps, but to continue on and evolve and to keep on love of plants.

1:57:52Etienne FontanYou have a love of plants. You have a love of botany. I mean, it showed through both publications, so You have an appreciation for life that definitely has come through in your media that has taught many of us appreciation for not only cannabis but through Grower's Edge learned a great deal just about aquaculture and aquaponics and various things. You opened our eyes to so many diverse things that we would not have access to because High Times doesn't cover any of that stuff.

1:58:23Etienne FontanAgain, we're still talking pamphlet versus information. We're putting out viable information, so thank you.

1:58:31SpeakerWell, thank you. A lot of people don't know, High Times twice tried to buy me out, and this was like in 86 and 87, 88, and both times they wanted to just buy it and kill it and have just one column sent to me of tips that I would write. And I refused. I mean, they flew me down to Palm Springs and we'll, you know, at their board meeting and it just, it didn't feel right.

1:59:05SpeakerAnd, you know, the editors and writers are good people. It's just the head honchos have different mind space and it just wasn't a good fit.

1:59:18HoratioTom, I have a question for you in case you go. With all your experience, you know, magazine after magazine, you've met a lot of people, you see a lot of grows, and now you're talking about your own upbringing in organics. With people who are outside of regions where greenhouses are viable, or like us in Canada, I have a license, but there's no outdoors. They're just, they're not going for it.

1:59:42HoratioWhat is the best hybrid of both ethics and, you know, sustainability and, you know, professional going at it? What would you like to see from the next generation? The people who are basically looking at, I could grow anything, I could do hydroponics, what's this DWC, I hear about soil. They have everything at their fingertips and there's no real guide for why to choose. What would be their pathway that you'd like to see where they can't follow you like in the States?

2:00:09SpeakerWell, my good friend Jeff Lonefels lives up in Anchorage, well he lives half the time in Anchorage, half the time in Portland, Oregon. Are you all familiar with Jeff Lonefels? He wrote the book Teaming with Microbes and Teaming with Nutrients. Yeah, okay. Anyway, him, me, and Jorge are speakers at some cannabis conferences as the three amigos of cannabis. And he grows up in Anchorage outdoors using auto-flowering, even though they're susceptible to hermaphrodites.

2:00:46SpeakerAnd I forget the varieties that he's growing, but he's successful doing auto flowering outdoors in Anchorage, Alaska. So if you can find some, and the seed companies up in Alaska carry a lot of auto flowering, and I would imagine some in Canada do too. So I can't really give you the specific strains, but the next time I see them I'll ask them and try and find out.

2:01:13SpeakerBut his two books, For understanding how the soil food web works, he's a guru on organic. And he went from Miracle-Gro back in the 80s to totally organic because I showed him some pictures of microbes working in the soil with electron microscope magnification. And it totally changed His way of gardening, and now he has these two books that are considered the Bible for organic gardening. But I would look into auto-flowering varieties, even though they're susceptible of becoming Hermes.

2:02:01SpeakerHe's had good success with them.

2:02:04HoratioOkay, just last follow-up to that, because first you said his name and I was like, oh, I don't know, and then I was like, teaming with microbes. And then basically a different life came to me, my normal life where I grow food and compost tea brew and that type of stuff. But let's say for me and Bubble Man, we are stuck indoors with the way our licenses work.

2:02:28HoratioIs soil and organics the ultimate? I'm really attracted to deep water culture, but I'm willing to go through the headache of having it go sour on me 50 times in a row because I'm determined to use organics. Have you come across people doing it? Because it's so doable with aquaponics that I don't see why organic nutrients can't be worked in the water.

2:02:54SpeakerPeople are hooking up brewers right to the nutrient tank. And brewing in their nutrient tank on a regular, you know, putting more and more microbes, compost in a bag and brewing it in the nutrient solution tank and then delivering it through hydroponics. So organics is possible in hydroponics. American hydroponics is working on a bottled solution that's organic. They're in Arcata, California, and one of the top hydro suppliers.

2:03:33SpeakerBut a lot of the organic compost tea brewers that are connecting to nutrient tanks don't publicize what they're doing. Evan Folds down in North Carolina, one of the Carolinas, He has a store. I think it's Progressive Gardening. I forget the name of it. But he actually sells, I think, Vortex Brewers that he's connecting to hydrotanks. So Google hydroponics, compost tea brewers, nutrient solution tanks all in one search, and you might come up with stuff.

2:04:20HoratioOkay, because yeah, I have a GOT brewer. It's like one of the bigger, you know, 250 gallon ones. It's meant to spray acres. And I've always wanted to see if I could bring it indoors recirculating, if it hooked up to enough systems, if it could basically replace the fish so that the PPMs of organics could go up to beyond where fish could handle it. But It seems like everyone with deep hydroponic experience instantly goes to intellectual property mode and shuts down so every new generation considers it doesn't exist.

2:04:51HoratioI'm told no, I better just use salt, nutrients, and fuck it if I want to be competitive. They either go to soil, which, you know, some days just cannot beat the speed of hydroponics, but it seems like the real future that should be chipped at is organics and hydroponics without a pythium disaster and basically living with a microscope next to your reservoir.

2:05:16SpeakerWell, that's what Jeff and Elaine Ingham, the other guru of compost tea brewers, says is that to really know what's in your... Organic solutions, whether it's soil or hydro, you need a microscope and you need a little knowledge of what microbes you're seeing under the microscope because just playing hit or miss without knowing what's in your, you know, you should have your compost that you're using in a brewer lab tested so you know what microbes are in there.

2:05:50SpeakerSo it is more scientific. I used to like to, I did aeroponics with organics and the combination of foliar spraying in the veg stage and utilizing the brewer like you're talking about Horatio.

2:06:22SpeakerMy favorite way to grow is like big tubes, sprayers, areoponics, all organics, and then you can get it really dialed in, that's for sure. I haven't grown in a while like that, but I could see that coming more into utilizing that in greenhouses. I think you might see areoponic, organic, Systems developed more into the greenhouses, and that would be ideal. Disney World's been doing that with tomatoes for 15 years.

2:07:02SpeakerWe could actually tour it. It's pretty amazing down in Florida.

2:07:07HoratioWell that's that regional jealousy that always eats me up is the fact that anything I design has to be designed to freeze to a complete solid brock and unfreeze several times a season without dismantling itself by spring. But I just, because my outdoor, the way the earth buffers and balances anything you've done wrong, when it comes to compost tea brewing, I'm a nut. Like, I'm the one that studied, like, okay, well, we're going to put fresh blood in this.

2:07:39HoratioLet's know what bacteria we're stimulating. But when it comes to growing a monoculture indoors, I know that if I apply that to a monoculture, all hell breaks loose, and I can just basically spray death. So trying to adapt it to indoors is like trying to simplify something that has to be complex in order to be safe. So it's the fact that cannabis, cannabis growers, and cannabis laws are all over the place, and You know, some people with a six plant license isn't going to have the ability to have a six plant outdoor grow that's not just a tent that's going to blow over.

2:08:12HoratioSo like I kind of know where we're going as an industry where if you don't move to the industry where all the greenhouses are, you're fucked. But Day by day, we also have to support this industry of patients becoming professionals in order to get the quality medicine they need. So I'm always itchy to see how far they can take a monoculture with the complexity of organics without basically spraying a fungi on their wall and then having it grow out.

2:08:44SpeakerInteresting. Wow. You know, it's weird that you'd say, because a lot of what I took away from Since Million Tips and Grover's Edge was an organic kind of vibe with it because I mostly grew in soil indoors because I couldn't afford the hydroponic equipment, you know, at all when I started. That stuff was expensive and it was like, you know, it seems so unnecessary. You could just get pots of dirt and, you know, learn how to water properly and you're okay.

2:09:14SpeakerI still think that soil, I mean, I'm still a huge soil fan. It may sound like, you know, not the smartest thing, but I've always felt like it gave the cannabis more of a cannabis, I don't know, like, I liked it. But we used to sell, and when I lived in Amsterdam, we would, there was a market for both hydroponic and organic. So I would see serious seeds deliver the same clones to different growers, and we would get back significantly different looking cannabis in three months from them.

2:09:43SpeakerEven though it was the exact same mom, exact same cuttings, they picked them up on the exact same day, it was just grower's technique versus soil versus hydroponic. Unfortunately, most of the time, the hydro did look better. There's no question. The hydro came back looking just dank as fuck.

2:10:02SpeakerI think it's just the bioavailability of nutrients to all of the plants, sometimes which is achieved better than soil, and some growers can do with dirt. What do you think is hydroponics the edge in a way of look and feel over the soil?

2:10:22SpeakerAnyone.

2:10:25HoratioWell, I mean, I guess innerly, that's the struggle I've been having. When it comes to processing and seeking out growers and looking at things like consistency, I've always had to give up and I'm like, I don't understand why these people who base their life around advanced nutrients seem to show attributes of mastering the plant but don't seem to get The miracles in the medical results that I can get from just like this random outdoor plant where you get a low yield but it's the most potent shit you always remember and it was grown simply with the basic organics.

2:11:03HoratioI can't seem to get that in a commercial consistent output but when it comes to something I personally reveal, it's always organic, it always has some story and it resembles the lifestyle of my produce and the rest of my food but Todd, I agree, I've never seen better pot than synthetically grown pot, but I also don't get the magic from pot anymore. It just feels like commercially consistent pot.

2:11:31SpeakerYou know, though, I'd say this, you know, for someone that grows, I've always had a propensity towards fresh cannabis. I love well-cured cannabis, but there's something about those terpenes, the fresh terpenes, like As soon as I can smoke the buds, I'm happy to try them because they're full of flavor and intensity. Honestly, I like the high. I was having a long conversation with Rob Clark the past few days he was here.

2:11:57SpeakerI used to think that it was the complexity of cannabinoids that really colored in my high. He was saying that he believes more now that it's the coloring of the terpenes that really colors in our high. When you take high expressions of cannabinoids, sometimes they don't have the magic that, like, you'd find in a joint. And I think what you find in a joint is those are, you know, the whole cannabis terpenes, if the cannabis has been properly handled and cured right.

2:12:27SpeakerYou know, and I think that's huge.

2:12:34SpeakerIf that makes sense.

2:12:39SpeakerI'm a huge pothead is what I'm saying, guys. I'm just going to come out and confess right now.

2:12:44HoratioIt makes sense, Todd. It's just because I'm, let's say, everything I access is fresh or fresh frozen, I always get to look at it, you know, before those missteps that can happen in processing. And I've always seeked organic growers, but pound for pound, it's where I found the most hypocrisy. And I don't know if it's the soil conditions or the fact they can't top their pots with sand or some simplicity that perpetuates insect damage or all of the other attributes.

2:13:13HoratioIt just seems that if it was for something I need year-round and I don't want to change... Thanks for watching.

2:13:34HoratioAnd less of an expression of the unique ones. That's kind of why I like Chimera's episode. He was talking about dormant attributes and how to bring those out and whether organics are stimulating those dormant genes to express something different. Because I'm always getting fresh, I look at it and I'm like, these ones don't have terpenes. This time it did. I'm always attracted to what Mother Nature knows that I don't understand that I can apply and get a benefit from, and I can understand later, where synthetics have kind of just maxed out.

2:14:06HoratioIt grows good weed, but there's nothing else to pursue except just keep doing it and do it bigger.

2:14:16SpeakerSee, you know what's interesting? Root down, I don't, you know, there's a whole different experience, I mean, from what's happening from root up, you know, and I think... The root down, I've told so many growers, use the nutrients you can get your hands on. It'll work. Believe it or not, anything from Miracle-Gro to whatever you want to use, it usually works is what I tell people. Cannabis doesn't really fight you when it grows.

2:14:46SpeakerReally, the focus for me has been root up. It didn't matter what I was using for my medium. I've seen differences in my medium's use, if you will. I've seen differences between my hydroponics and my dirt. Of course, but it's still about the plant, if that makes sense at the end of the day. There's still a lot to do root up, if that makes sense. I'd like to ask everybody this.

2:15:10SpeakerIs there any medical known benefit to the root? Tom, have you seen, Tom, you specifically, you've been reading about this stuff longer than all of us. Have you seen anything that pertains to the root being medically beneficial or medically used in history? I haven't, but it would make possible sense that there would be some. I don't know. I've never heard any. Me neither, actually. If anyone's watching and has information about the root used medically, please post it to the Facebook Ash Church group.

2:15:47SpeakerI would love to learn more about it, to be honest.

2:15:50HoratioEverything I've seen seems to also come with a corollary debunking. First it was like, oh, the roots have CBD, and then there was like, we tested it, we ground it, we pounded it, it didn't. But the root probably has more stock fodder feed as a carbohydrate to animals that are supposed to be in conjunction with your farm. So when it comes to hydroponics, if I'm using organics, I can wash those off and feed them to my ducks and rabbits.

2:16:19HoratioThey're going to like those as carbs. But I tried to pursue that. Tony, did you ever get any hard data on finding the CBD in the roots?

2:16:32SpeakerNo, I was, uh, that's a good project to pick back up again. But, um, you probably, now, looking back, you're probably going to see a lot of CBC, CB, or CBG, A, CBCA, I mean, you'll see a lot of, like, um, precursors, but, um,

2:16:56HoratioThat's valuable. That's valuable in and of itself. So that's kind of what I was looking for. I wondered if, I mean, this would take more time.

2:17:05SpeakerThat'd be a good project for John now.

2:17:08HoratioIs there any chance of a type of degradation where it could get lost because it's a root structure versus a trichome? Like maybe it needs to be fresh frozen or something like that?

2:17:21SpeakerYou're talking about roots. Yeah, you want to freeze dry roots.

2:17:27SpeakerYou know, if you freeze dry your roots, then you keep them in a compound, and they'll be preserved.

2:17:32HoratioYeah, because now, like, every time the Emerald Cup comes around, all this information about more folk-type medicine when it comes to cannabis seems to pop up under my radar, so, like, People who've collected a shit ton of just stems and tried to extract that to get a profile. And that was really interesting. Like, you know, it takes a shit ton to get a couple of grams, but medicinally I don't care.

2:17:57HoratioI just want to know what are the benefits and if it's worth it, we'll collect them because, you know, there's 10 pound plants out there that are producing a lot of stem material if there really is a value to extracting it.

2:18:09SpeakerWell, I mean, Talking about those, I mean, I normally never like to give, like, any kind of information that would give false hope or anything, but I would say on three occasions over the last five years, I've met a couple individuals, and I've tried this before when I had access to a lot more roots, but, you know, at a commercial level, I never really developed it all the way.

2:18:38SpeakerBut I can tell you that, and it didn't come from me, it came from a couple individuals that I met along the way that was using the root, and they were taking the tap root, taking it live, washing the roots, breaking the root open with a spoon, boiling out the center root, and creating like that in combination with other teas, and created a home recipe for like...

2:19:06SpeakerHopefully I get this right. For like hepatitis or viruses that I can't remember exactly what they were using it for, but it was something that was like a little unusual. It had to do with a viral condition or like a hepatitis or something, and they were clean. So I know that I've seen patients use the roots for that, and I met an old Um, individual that, uh, worked with a lot of native roots and herbalists that, um, did something with diabetes and something else with the roots.

2:19:46SpeakerI think it's, um, definitely an unexplored market for sure. Um, it's only so much time in a day, you know what I mean? But I think, I think that, uh, John Burfellow, who's sitting in his house with a lab, um, Could certainly start working with you and Bubble Man and working on the different roots and freezing the roots and boiling the roots and seeing what's in there, you know?

2:20:18SpeakerLiterally, somebody just sent me a link to the CBD cannabis root experience. And I don't know why there wouldn't be beneficial cannabinoids in the root. I mean, a lot of plants are root-based that we use, that we like a lot. So why there wouldn't be, it would be more perplexing that there wouldn't be, considering everything that's in the plant. I can't believe in a way that it's so unexplored, if you will.

2:20:49SpeakerIt's funny now, you know, this is going to be, you know, back in the early 90s when we first cut screens and we put screens on our desk and we started threshing our pot and, you know, 1996 in the winter I worked for a seed company and I used to clean their seeds and we would use these screens and I'd have all the resin powder at the end and when I realized how much of it I threw away I was like, oh my God, you know, like I have thrown away so much good stuff.

2:21:17SpeakerAnd now to look at this root stuff, you know, we've all thrown away so many roots, thinking, meh. And wouldn't it be funny if it turns out great stuff? You know, and Tom, I'd love to ask you, you know, it's a rare occurrence that I get to ask this, but what are some of the sensimelia tips that stood out over the decade of publishing? Oh, man. Yeah.

2:21:49SpeakerThat's a hard one. Well, what do you practice? Obviously, you grow sense, Amelia. Well, I practice outdoor in 50-gallon pots. I use bird and backwano and liquid and dried seaweed. Compost tea sprayed on the leaves and root drench. As much sunlight as I place them around where they can get the most sunlight and just as organic as I can. Wow. You know, it's interesting because really what you really taught me was, you know, in a sense urban farming, but I wasn't learning in school.

2:22:44SpeakerI was picking up through these books from Mel Frank and the magazines you were putting out. So many of us have a disconnect from nature. We don't understand the way that the plants cycle. I ask people that are getting into plant growing, pot growing, do you know the difference between a perennial and an annual? A lot of them will look at me and they'll go,

2:23:07SpeakerAnd, you know, it's fundamental stuff, you know, when you're learning about plants. But, you know, a lot of these cannabis professionals don't even know. I had one guy, you know, a genius out of Colorado, he thought a perpetual, he thought because he had a perpetual harvest that basically he had changed the plant. It's funny. But, you know, I think that this basic understanding of how nature worked was what you and others taught me, which was really the most useful thing.

2:23:38SpeakerAnd now, the way we all played on it was really, you know, breeding stuff together. Marijuana Botany was a huge epiphany for me, too, whereas he was actually teaching us, you know, the expressions of the plants and what would happen if we did, you know, different things. And You know, mixed together with Sense Amelia Tips. To me, it was some of the most enlightening material of my childhood.

2:23:59SpeakerAnd it sounds funny to say, but like, I have a lot of reverence because, you know, nothing taught me more about life than growing cannabis in a weird way. I started growing when I was 13 years old. I traded a $20 bag of weed for my friend's big brother's book from, you know, Mel Frank and Ed and changed my life forever. But when I started growing as a kid, it taught me how to be patient, how to plan.

2:24:22SpeakerHow to cycle my time, you know, it taught me how to care for things outside of myself, but not too much that I killed it, but just enough that it didn't die, you know, and it really connected me to nature, and I think that that was responsible for really, you know, preparing me for adulthood more than, you know, a lot of the shit in junior high, if you will.

2:24:43SpeakerWell, gardening in general for me is a meditative process that, like when I'm Spending hours pinching my plants so they bush out more. And even when I'm tending my vegetables, it's a meditative process where I think about life, I think about what I want out of the future, I think, you know, all kinds of peaceful meditative things. And so for me, it's an integral part of my life because it enables me to calm down from the hectic Thanks for joining us.

2:25:48SpeakerBecause it gave me such great space. And part of why we're here is sharing information is because we hope to inspire others that people can benefit in the way we've benefited. It's to me unbelievable to sit here somewhat face to face with you. You were, you know, I don't know, I didn't know if Tom Alexander was real. It could have been a pen name, you know, like, back then when I was younger, I didn't know what any of it really was.

2:26:16SpeakerI just, I'm so blown away with how much of an effect what you did had. Well, I gotta say, You guys, I only spent 25 hours in jail. You guys that have spent years in jail are the real heroes because you were casualties of war. You were, you know, you got taken out of civilization for years at a time. So, you know, the accolades should go to you guys because you, you know, you're casualties of the cannabis wars.

2:26:51SpeakerYou know, people like me, I mean, I used to write POW right before my prison number 11071112 and it always pissed off the prison guards. But I was, I was like, what is it guys, it's a drug what? It's a drug what? Say it, say it, drug what? And they'd be like, fuck you McCormick. And you know, it was a drug war and I was a prisoner of it and in a lot of ways I wasn't, it was a conscious act though, I really never thought for a minute when I started Debating them and such that I wasn't going to end up locked up at some point.

2:27:20SpeakerI wasn't looking to get locked up, but I knew where their sites were aimed, and I got it. But it was worth it to get the word out. I mean, to be truthful, I got a letter from a little old lady from Boise, Idaho, who was 71 years old when I was in prison, who read about me on something called ifeminist.com, and I didn't think I'd ever reach that demographic, so to speak.

2:27:43SpeakerMiddle of the country, little old lady, and to me, It wasn't, you know, I'm not saying that's what I was, I went to prison, but to realize that this was the ripple was having, it was like, you know, fuck you to the system, you know. It's like I know they're trying to kick my ass, but it's working in reverse for them, if that makes any blunt sense, you know, so.

2:28:06SpeakerIn many ways, I'm glad, though, that we had courage in different ways, I guess. I didn't know how to put together a magazine and publish information that was pertinent from all these different people. You did, and I'm grateful for it. If it wasn't for guys like Mel Frank and Rob Clark and others writing these seminal books of my youth, I don't know where I would have learned about cannabis.

2:28:28SpeakerI mean, that's what I guess where I come from. And that's why I think it means so much to me. And me tripping through the prison system was nothing compared to the contributions to society I feel like you and others have made. And honestly, this is why I publish now. This is why I work on movies now, because of how you all touched me. And really, I mean that so sincerely.

2:28:51SpeakerWell, thank you, but I disagree. I think you guys are the heroes.

2:28:59SpeakerBecause you were the casualties of this fucked up war. The DEA is part of the national security apparatus. They created this war so that they could get intelligence on other governments who were involved in the drug trade. The domestic cannabis thing just grew out of it. When they started this war, domestic cannabis was non-existent. And so this was just like an outgrowth of... They're all involved in the drug trade.

2:29:41SpeakerThey gather intelligence on those governments and work closely with the CIA and NSA and all the other intelligence agencies and the military in those countries. And, you know, in Columbia, DEA was right battling FARC and all the other You know, rebel groups that, and then Central America also. So it's bigger, DEA is like a key part of the national security apparatus. You know what, I would even go so far as to say it's all a fraud.

2:30:13SpeakerI watched the Narco series on Netflix over the holiday season. The production was fantastic, you know, but What really blew me away is that, you know, granted I'm not a fan of the asshole, he killed people and he was a horrible person, but at the same time, he's peddling a drug that is no more dangerous or harmful than tobacco. It arguably takes less lives, has less victims, less casualties, and, you know, The CEO of, you know, Winston-Salem Cigarettes must be sitting there freaking laughing his ass off on his billions of dollars because he wouldn't be rich if it wasn't for the hypocrisy of the American government protecting his ability to export poison while going and kicking the ass of people trying to import just another type of poison.

2:31:04SpeakerI don't smoke cigarettes. I don't do cocaine, just for the record. You know what I mean? I have tried cocaine in the 80s, but, you know, so did us all. But the truth is is that They're both shit, in my opinion. I don't think one CEO should be getting treated differently from another CEO, in my opinion. And it's all hypocrisy that has made the DEA even relevant.

2:31:25SpeakerAnd it is a branch of the CIA, in all reality, in my opinion, because it's all about political espionage and oppression of other foreign countries.

2:31:38SpeakerYou heard it here on Hash Church.

2:31:40HoratioI was going to say, Todd wants Donald Trump in charge of all of that.

2:31:47SpeakerGo Donald, right? What would he even do? I think he's just trying to get Hillary elected. Imagine this was just a big rouse so he could support Hillary at the end. As much as I don't want Hillary as president, that would be fucking a hell of a funny joke on the GOP party. Also, I mean, who's on the Republican side? Not that I'm Republican, but Who else do you have?

2:32:13SpeakerYou know, it's a crazy side this year. It's awesome though, he's making them all short circuit. All of them are freaking out, man. Honestly, there's no decorum. It's awesome. It's possibly the most entertaining thing. Collection ever.

2:32:33SpeakerIt is Hollywood. You know what though? I hate to say it. It's what America deserves. You want to give a fuck about the Kardashians? You give a shit about some glove? You deserve Donald fucking Trump. Let me say that. You don't care about your doors getting kicked in or the drug war going on? Good luck with Donald, dear assholes. You know, and it's fucked up. I mean, you know...

2:32:53SpeakerI have a lot of opinions, you know. I'm of the opinion, believe it or not, and I'll say it right out loud, Second Amendment should get fucking repealed, just like the 18th Amendment got repealed. Muskets were a good idea when we didn't have a standing army, but now, if you think you're going to defend your ass against the American government with your fucking gun, it's as stupid as bringing a knife to a gunfight, because those assholes are going to send drones.

2:33:15SpeakerAnd the robots are going to shoot you, and your gun's going to be laying on your dead fucking body, and they're going to be sitting in their home playing it like it's a fucking video game. So I have my own opinions on the way things have evolved, but I have a deep hatred for the military-industrial complex. I think they're the root of all evil post-World War II.

2:33:35SpeakerBut it's the weed.

2:33:38BubblemanIt's the weed.

2:33:41SpeakerWell... We've talked about confessions here on Hash Church. Now what about, and I don't want to hear that everyone's going to stop eating meat and get healthy. Let's hear some real resolutions related to cannabis. What do you, what, what, I'm going to start off by saying I need more full melt in my life. 2016 was the year that full melt just like disappeared and we went into this rosin world.

2:34:08SpeakerSo my New Year's resolution is get deep with full melt. I want to hear some of your others.

2:34:17BubblemanNew Year's resolutions. Damn. I mean, I guess it is a new year.

2:34:21HoratioI guess my resolution would be I have a real gripe with growers right now and the cannabis plant because it's a bioaccumulator and it will take up any fucking thing you present to those roots. And I really want to see that phased out because with extractions going the way they're going, I just, it can't keep perpetuating the fact that we're not actually looking at the plant itself.

2:34:50HoratioAnd it just... People are feeding it anything. The fact there's still an argument about how to flush a plant means we're still growing. And I find in extractions I've had the most, basically the pain of my existence is people who've already decided they know everything about the plant and they're going to do what they do until they die. And that they populate the medical system. I really hope 2016 brings in the cannabis professional versus just the slickster in a suit.

2:35:22BubblemanWell, for those listening that want to get on the path that Horatio's mentioning, and you heard him mention bioaccumulative, go Google phytoremediation, and you can learn a little bit about what he means by that and how much that plant can pull things up, not just out of nutrients, but literally out of the ground that you plant it into. It's pretty trippy.

2:35:45Etienne FontanI hope in 2016 we'll see more states legalize it so that we can see more of our brothers and sisters freed. In this stupid oppression, I know, I would love to see it federally changed, but I don't see that coming down the pike. But with more states coming online, momentum is building, and we have to, you know, keep building it. So the work's not done yet. We still have work to do.

2:36:09SpeakerThat's not your resolution. Not related to cannabis.

2:36:13Etienne FontanYeah, more people being allowed to have legal access to it through the legislative and through the Voting methodology, yes, I think that is a resolution of hope to see the change that we've been working so hard on all these decades. We've been putting all these blood, sweat, and tears, like I said, we've been playing Sisyphus for too long. Nice to watch it start to roll downhill. And it's gaining that momentum, but it's just not there yet.

2:36:42Etienne FontanEvery time I feel we've just pushed over the The height, I feel the height just gets a little taller and we're almost there. But I think if Mexico legalizes it and definitely Canada does so, and then these other states, that momentum in 2017, 2018 is just going to really push it down the hill.

2:37:05BubblemanWell, mine is definitely to make my resolution to get back down into America for my first visit in almost 20 years. It'll have been almost 20 years when I come down to the U.S. this year in 2016. And that'll be my resolution. And the sift and the melt and the rosin and the terps shall flow. Hey, welcome, D420K.

2:37:30SpeakerWhat about you, Todd? What? Bomb rip, motherfuckers.

2:37:43SpeakerHappy New Year, D. D420 has been up since New Year's Eve. I have. I have, literally. I heard Tony say that he wants to hear something real of the New Year's resolution stuff to do with marijuana. And I just had to jump in. I've been lazy. And doing the rosining myself and all that kind of stuff. And what I've done this last week is sifted the fucking hell out of everything I got in my shop that's been sitting there on screens for the last almost year.

2:38:17SpeakerI'm almost down to the last batch. And I've got to say I'm pretty happy with it all. That dry sift, looking at it under the microscope, seeing all those beautiful resin heads, and just smoking the hell out of it, watching it bubble up on the On the skillet tool, doing its thing, just makes me happy. So I'm about to do that as well. I'm going to pop the rosin for a while, unless I just want to have a little taste of it, because it is pretty good.

2:38:52SpeakerThe rosin is a new thing that has just totally destroyed the dry sifting scene, it seems like. But it's taken the dry sifting screen and made us... Rosin Dry Sip that shouldn't have been rosined, and Rosin Full Mold Bubble Hash that shouldn't have been rosined either, but we did it.

2:39:10BubblemanWe had to, we had to, but we're not doing it anymore.

2:39:14SpeakerYeah, oh, no, not anymore. But anyways, bone rip, everybody. Let's do this. Happy New Year's to all of you.

2:39:22Horatio2015, there was some rosin that shouldn't have been rosined, but we made it through the dark times.

2:39:33SpeakerHappy New Year's, D420. I'm glad to see that you still can hold up for two days straight without any sleep. I see that there's a deer in your background that made it through your wall as well. Some people clean up their closets. You clean up all the trichomes in your house and sift them together and make little piles. It's funny. Yes, yes. That deer was running really fast too, by the way, to get to the wall.

2:40:01SpeakerYou should see the rest of them on the side.

2:40:05SpeakerIs this the communion of the church?

2:40:08BubblemanYes, this is where we blow smoke towards the Vatican, as Rob Clark would have us do.

2:40:15SpeakerIt's a pretty ironic name there.

2:40:20SpeakerFuck the Vatican. The Vatican is a big waste of fucking money, the biggest, largest criminal organization on the planet. That's why we're blowing cannabis smoke towards him. Whoa, were you formerly a Catholic as well, Mark?

2:40:35BubblemanYeah, I gave it up to him.

2:40:36SpeakerI knew it. I knew it. I gave it up to him. Me too, bro. That's cool. I was an altar boy. Ooh, altar boy. I was an altar boy. We would get there early and drink the wine and eat the host before mass. Fifteen years old.

2:40:54Etienne FontanYep, get it in early before everyone else because you've got to serve them anyway, right?

2:40:58BubblemanThat's hilarious.

2:41:01SpeakerI see a picture of a big biker all done up with tattoos and then a preacher standing beside him. And it said, one of these two will protect your child, one of them will hurt your child. Which one is it?

2:41:14BubblemanYeah. I saw that. I thought it even said one of these will protect your child and one of these is a pedophile.

2:41:23SpeakerYes, yes, exactly, that's what it did say. I didn't say which one it was, but we know which one it was. I think this is blasphemy. We're on hash charts blasting other religions now. We're walking the fine line. Hey man, Lemmy died. That's sad. Let's take a moment for Lemmy, dude. I really like Motorhead, and you know what? Lemmy. Organized religion is one of the largest scams perpetrated on all humankind.

2:41:55SpeakerIt belongs in the dustbin of medieval superstitions like sorcerers and potions. It's all a bunch of crap.

2:42:06HoratioBut Mark, I just heard about it.

2:42:07SpeakerYou know what's funny? Well, you know what's interesting? I made the comparison to someone the other day to think of this. Wicca is still practiced, but we don't burn witches anymore. And at what point, you know, we got over... Basically, we got over our ignorance, and I believe we need to do that with cannabis, because in a sense, we no longer drag people out of their homes and prosecute them for practicing magic.

2:42:35SpeakerAt what point are we going to not get dragged out of our homes and prosecuted for practicing gardening? And I thought there was a similarity in the way that we have evolved in society. You know, I mean, I grew up not far from where they did the Salem witch burnings. So, you know, the dogma was strong back then. And, you know, now, you know, we lived through the drug war, and I think the drug war will be much like a historical peg, kind of like the Salem witch burnings were.

2:43:01SpeakerYou know, where society was just fucking crazy. Todd, did you know that that was LSD-induced? Have you heard this theory that basically... I got some ergot here, dude. I'm a huge fan of LSD. Are you kidding me? They gave away ergot in a glass vial on Albert Hoffman's 100th birthday. And I have it here, actually. It's really cool. And I understand that totally. You know, they weren't tripping.

2:43:26SpeakerBut even if they weren't tripping, you know, motherfuckers can believe their magic. I'm not mad at them. You want to sit there? Now we don't care because now we know their little, you know, witch's broom, it doesn't mean shit. So we're like, cool, stay in the house, you're safe. The witch's broom, there is some reality to this. It was basically a shoved in dildo. That's all it was.

2:43:49SpeakerThe end of the broom was a dildo. That's what the ride on the witch's broom was. But there's actually now forensic scientific evidence. I have to deal with Jack Herrod telling that story in the most worst places we ever went. He would always say the most inappropriate shit at different times, and that was one of the stories he would tell about the wrapped broom. I guess now it would be like a cannabis suppository.

2:44:14SpeakerWell, I mean, we went in some crazy directions just now, but I will back and say... That there is a lot of evidence, not just theory. So what happens, like when you store rye, and you know, there was a time where we all evolve and go through different times where we have to learn about how we store foods and prepare foods and things. And rye, at one point, generally for the populace and the poor, was...

2:44:46SpeakerImproperly stored and there was contamination in the form of like a psilocybin that you would get from mushrooms. And they were eating that and there were people tripping out for real during that time period. I don't know about the dildo thing though. That's a pretty, you said scientific evidence, Mark, and you're usually a matter of fact. I would love to see forensic studies. Forensic studies that indicate witches use their brooms as dildos.

2:45:20SpeakerDr. The forensic evidence was actually in line with the ergot. Ergot alkaloids are basically formed on a fermentation process. Actually, exactly what you said, Tony, when the grass is improperly stored, And certainly it can be improperly stored if you don't know how to do it. Yeah, the stuff basically... I guess somehow they did some type of forensic study where they actually found, you know, carbon-14 labeling studies that actually showed that there was psychedelics in some of these people.

2:45:59SpeakerSo I don't know that that was... Well, they used to...

2:46:03Etienne FontanThere was a book, I forget, it came out in the 90s called, I think, Hemp the First Thousand Years or something like that. And in there it gave a recipe... For cannabis, poppies, and all kinds of other just psychedelics, and they would make it into a pulpous, and then they would insert it in the vagina using a broom handle, you know, because that's what would work. So it wouldn't surprise me that because there's the connotation of the two, because it's always been associated with witches.

2:46:34Etienne FontanSo they actually had that recipe in that book and broke it down with the whole story of the broom.

2:46:41SpeakerYeah, so this PBS link that I just posted here is the thing that I saw that, again, sort of made me think, wow. But just so, and that's a great article, I think you should post that in the chat, but just so we're clear, we have no actual evidence that people were putting LSD on a broomstick into their That's not what he's saying, Tony. LSD actually is a 20th century invention.

2:47:09SpeakerYou know the story of LSD. Yes, you do. It was more about a bicycle ride than a broom ride. But what he's talking about is what I held up. This is rice. This was given away at Albert Hoffman's 100th birthday. And what this represents is ergot as a natural on rice. So what it says inside is, Ergot Anniversary Amphis for the 100th birthday of Albert Hoffman. From alicoids of Ergot, Hoffman synthesized LSD for the first time in 1938.

2:47:41SpeakerThen it says, Ergot is toxic. Do not ingest. Keep away from children. But you can't really open it. It's a sealed little thing. It's just a birthday memento that was passed out on his birthday.

2:47:52Etienne FontanBack then. They ate unleavened bread, which had her got growing on it.

2:47:56SpeakerWell, this would be what could have been responsible for a lot of the religious visions people had. They didn't realize they were just really eating a precursor to what we would later call a psychedelic. Yeah, it's exactly right, Todd. It's a precursor. It's the amide. And so what Hoffman did is he made a lot of analogs around that, including the diethylamide, which just happened to be labeled number 25.

2:48:19SpeakerAnd that's why... He'll refer to it as LSD 25 because it was like the 25th compound in the series that he made. But basically the natural product that you're holding up there is the amide. There's two steps between that and the synthesis of the diethylamide that basically Hoffman worked out. But Hoffman made a whole bunch of analogs there. I think he made like about 70 different analogs in about three or four years.

2:48:44SpeakerAnd yeah, LSD, which was the diethylamide, was the number 25. So 25 is a special, special number to anyone who's ever...

2:48:59SpeakerI did a lot of acid. Probably about 10,000 hits in my teenage years. I swear, easy. Easy. My buddies did way too much. I think that sometimes... You can't do way too much. I can actually be like this the rest of my life. It just wouldn't stop. It was... You know, I did a week-long hire, and it was just, I'd do four or five double hits, I'd peak, I'd do four or five more double hits, I'd peak, we'd do 50 a lot of them a night, maybe two nights, you know, a night and a half, but we wouldn't be high for a week, we'd be really intensely peaking, but we also tried making it out of rye bread, molding rye bread when I was in, uh, A little juvie joint called Willington in Vancouver.

2:49:43SpeakerAnd we tried to make acid out of rye bread, molding it, and wrapping bubble gums, bubble gum, chewed bubble gum up in a banana peel with that mold as well, and let it mold and eat that as well. We all got sick. We didn't get high.

2:50:00SpeakerI got to a federal prison. One of the guys that was in federal prison in the first prison was Nicholas Sand who made Orange Sunshine. He was a protege chemist of his dad. His dad and his grandfather were both chemists. The kid grew up in a lab. In the 50s, he became a beat and then started making acid in the early 60s. Seminal work, man. And he was teaching me organic chemistry for the first year I was in prison.

2:50:27SpeakerAnd it was really funny because his idea was he was going to get out and write a book with all the recipes to all these different, you know, tryptamines and phenylethylamines. And when he was talking to me, I was like, do you know who Alexander Shulgin is? And he says, oh, yeah, Sasha? I said, yeah. I said, have you seen his book, Pakal and Tikal? And he said, yeah.

2:50:49SpeakerNo, I've been locked up for a while. And I was like, he already did it. He published all the recipes. And he goes, what? And I was like, yeah, the first book is phenylethylamines I have known and loved. The first part is a chemical love story. And the second part is the chemical recipes. And then he followed it up with Tryptamines, of course. Tryptamines I have known and loved, a chemical love story, followed with the recipes.

2:51:11SpeakerAnd the prison was so naive, they let me have both books in prison. So I was able to read Collins, Caldwell, because, hey, the words are huge. You've got to leave the mailroom alone. They can't read, fuck, multi-syllabic words. I mean, give them a break. So they let me have these books, which is really amusing, you know, straight-up drug fucking recipes. So the next day on the yard I brought Nicholas Sands for call and showed it to him and honestly he was like, I need a new plan.

2:51:45SpeakerBut he was a great guy. We do yoga together and Indian sweats because the Indians are allowed to have a religious place in federal prisons. So we were allowed to do sweats. And they invited me to sweat with them because they thought I was righteous or whatever. And it was really great because it was the closest I came to feeling like I was tripping or an out-of-body.

2:52:06SpeakerYou didn't feel like you were in prison when you're in the sweat, if that makes sense. Yeah, but don't sweat with a bunch of convicts who think they're badasses because you will fucking come out feeling like you just got roasted like a turkey in an oven. But life lessons, you know.

2:52:22BubblemanLife lessons. Well, if it wasn't for Nicholas Sands, you know, Vancouver wouldn't have had all the amazing psychedelics it had during the 90s because I'm pretty sure it was his lab down here.

2:52:34SpeakerYes, that's where he got picked up. You're right.

2:52:36BubblemanYeah, he had an underlying... I mean, Peter, who also did that lab, but kilos of DMT and kilos of LSD crystal and just really like pumping out the psychedelics. If you did psychedelics in like Canada in the 90s, it was for sure coming from this This lab, everything seemed to come from this lab.

2:53:00SpeakerDude, if you did psychedelics in the 80s and 90s, you had done something Nicholas Sands made. He was also making really research-grade MDMA. He was making MDMA up there before it was illegal, before it was scheduled, I should say. His case was really interesting. Back in the 70s, they made an LSD as a precursor because they figured out your body would synthesize the final step or whatever, and they tried to argue that what they made wasn't illegal yet.

2:53:29SpeakerIt worked so good and that's when they skipped court and they went to, I guess, obviously Canada where he was picked up in the early 90s. Damn. I really like Nick Sand. He's a fantastic guy. There's a documentary I saw that's coming out on them and the work they did and I don't know what it's called. I only saw a blip of it but I'm definitely going to check it out and when I get more information I'll post it to the group.

2:53:52SpeakerReally, really cool piece of history. I think psychedelics were an important part of the social... Evolution of our society in North America at least. Absolutely. Are you familiar with the Canadian broadcasting documentary that was called Hoffman's Potion? Has anyone in this room seen Hoffman's Potion? No. It sounds familiar. It's fantastic. It's available on the internet. It's by Canadian Public Broadcasting. There's not a hippie in it. It will blow your mind.

2:54:30SpeakerThe most beautiful part in it is when they are interviewing Albert at the beginning, and he expresses his first trip with LSD, and he said he went into the forest, and he says, I could see clearly the things the way they really were, and that was beautiful. Everything was beautiful. And I think that is the lesson, you know, from it, you know. It's a fantastic documentary. I can't recommend it enough.

2:54:58SpeakerThat was me at the fish show just the other night. Everything was beautiful. Tom, you know, you and I both got to see The Dead & Co. in the last week. Oh, I didn't. No, I just shared somebody's picture. I saw them when they played in Santa Clara. The Fair Thee Well, the supposedly last. So I wasn't there, but I've heard it was a good show in San Francisco and L.A.

2:55:27SpeakerI saw them in at Levi's Stadium as well when they did their last show. And then Rob just took me to see them in San Francisco the other night. And they were fantastic. John Mark is amazing, amazing. And, you know, big shoes to fill. But the band was great. The sound was great. I enjoyed it. I love it. Yeah. I actually got to do Woodstock with Mickey Hart in 1999.

2:55:53SpeakerHe was speaking about the environment and I was speaking about legalizing weed. And he was cool as could fucking be, honestly. Mickey was so great. Well, he had a book come out in the late 80s, early 90s, and we would be at the American Booksellers Convention, Jorge Cervantes and a whole bunch of other people, and he We went to his party, which was in Vegas. That's where the convention was.

2:56:19SpeakerAnd he gave everybody the Planet Drum logo on a drum that was about, I don't know, 10 inches wide. After his concert party, he led 2,000 people out on the strip of Vegas, blocking traffic, playing the drums, dancing, and the cars hawking their horns was the horn section. It took the cops like 10, 15 minutes to get, because traffic was stopped on the strip. They drove up on the sidewalks and said, you know, you have a minute to get out of the street or you can all be arrested.

2:56:56SpeakerAnd Mickey Hart's limo pulled up, took them away, and everybody just dispersed. Well, you know, he did the protests up in Humboldt when Julia Butterfly was up in the Redwood Tree. Him and Bonnie Raitt were down there with their drums and their instruments leading the cry. He's really a real I'll tell a short story. So after we did the Saturday Spitfire, me, him, and Rosie Perez of all people, she was speaking about AIDS and stuff.

2:57:26SpeakerWe all had to go do media row. And we got to the MTV tent, and this guy Kurt Loder comes out, and he's like, he addressed me like he knew me. He's like, Todd, sorry about what you're going through. MTV's not going to air any of it, so they don't want to interview you. I don't want to waste your time. But, you know, Mickey, Rosie, we'd love to talk to you.

2:57:43SpeakerAnd they were like, oh, and Mickey looked at me and goes, you know what, we got this, Todd. And I was like, I, you know, I'm a little kid. I was like, whatever, you know, I'm just standing here, you know. Him and Rosie went in, sat down, and Kurt Loder asked him a question. He said, you know, Mickey, you're the only musician to play both 69 and 99.

2:58:00SpeakerWhat do you think the vibe is? You know, what advice do you give the crowd? He goes, well, my advice is I hope they brought enough pot to sustain the peace and love for three days that they had back in 69. And he was like, oh, okay. So then he asked Rosie, what were you speaking about today? She was like, well, my friend got AIDS and he was denied medical marijuana and I thought it was horrible.

2:58:21SpeakerShe was like, you know, so I'm here as a voice for those that don't have one. And he was like, oh, okay, great. So then he goes back to Mickey. He says, well, you were here speaking with her with the Spitfire thing. You're here about the environment now. You were introducing some girl who was up a tree. In a protest, and he was like, yeah. He goes, you know, one acre of hemp is equal to four acres of 20-year-old trees for the same amount of paper, and I think it's obnoxious that we're making hemp illegal and we've got to stop cutting down the trees and saving the environment.

2:58:49SpeakerKurt Loda puts down the mic, he looks at me, he goes, are you going to answer every question with a marijuana answer? And him and Rosie look at each other and go, yeah. And he goes, they're not going to run out of it. And Mickey's like, then we're finished here. And the cameraman elbowed me and goes, you've got good friends. And I was just stunned. And we all went outside to the tent, did a group hug, and got interviewed by a talking sock.

2:59:10SpeakerAnd I thought Mickey was the most stand-up guy, honestly, ever for that. Because he just didn't care. You know what I mean? And I thought it was awesome.

2:59:20HoratioTodd, was that the Canadian talking sock?

2:59:23SpeakerYeah, he was totally cool. That talking sock was so much more intelligent than Kurt fucking Loader. Yeah, and the Talking Sock was like totally well informed and serious. Asked some great questions, asked about Juliet, like the Talking Sock was informed about what Rosie, like it watched what they did or something. Like, I was really impressed with the Talking Sock.

2:59:47HoratioDude, I'm very proud of our Canadian Talking Sock, because when that Talking Dog came out, I'm like, this doesn't, our Talking Sock was the fucking best interview I ever fucking grew up with.

2:59:58BubblemanYou guys are talking about Ed the Sock, for those of you watching that don't know who they're talking about. Ed the Sock. He does not fuck around, Ed the Sock. He tells it like it is.

3:00:10SpeakerThat is really funny, yeah, because I never met Ed the Sock before until I was on Media Row right there. You know, it was really, really funny, actually, yeah. And at the end of media row, I swear to shit, was Willie Nelson's tour bus parked, and he was just like scooping the stoners up. As we would get to the end of the row, I'd be like, oh look, Willie!

3:00:31SpeakerInto the bus to get high. He had that shit on lock, I gotta tell you. That's how he fueled up for the next stop, I think. Donations! Donations!

3:00:42BubblemanHas his brand been released? The Willie Nelson Cannabis brand?

3:00:48SpeakerNot that I know of, but Tom, do you have any information on that? I don't think it's available yet. Snoop, I guess, has his stuff out. And then at the Vegas thing in November, Julian Marley rolled out a brand, had a booth and was giving out samples, played at a party. So, you know, his son's even getting it as a separate brand, his son. Forget the name of it.

3:01:16SpeakerI think, no, I forget the name. Well, the party didn't work too well. It didn't stick in my mind. But all the celebrities are going to brand and market. I'm surprised Jorge or Ed or Rob, all the ones that are celebrities haven't marketed their brand. All Ed has or Ed Rosenthal has are joints, pre-rolled joints and dispensaries out here. And, you know, I'm surprised they haven't tacked their name on brands.

3:01:55SpeakerI think you may see stuff with Rob in the future as people become more legitimate because I think he does pride in his reputation and he's done a lot of academic work and I just think that he's only now starting to get comfortable with Coming out and going on Ash. He used to think I was crazy in the 90s. We've been good friends for 20 years. And not that he thought he was crazy.

3:02:15SpeakerHe was just a cautious friend. He loved that I was standing up for shit, but he couldn't stand the thought of it. And I always appreciated that sensitive side of him trying to be cautious of my well-being. There's no question. But, you know, a lot of people like yourself, you know, like him, you know, you're waiting. And when I saw you, you know, come out with the group on Facebook, I was like, I was stunned, honestly.

3:02:40SpeakerI was like, no way. And, you know, when I ask you this, do you think there could be, you know, bringing it back? I mean, is now not a better time than ever to have Sensibility Tips version 2? Print. There's so many cannabis publications. In print now that it just would be too hard, too expensive. If I did anything, it would be electronic.

3:03:09SpeakerSomebody approached me to finance it, but I don't want to give up. I don't know. It could happen. It may not. My thing is Sensimia Tips tours. I'm going to do them in Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California. Start in the rec legal states and do California when it's rec legal here. And go, I know so many wineries, I know so many fine restaurants, I know so many Bud and Breakfasts that I'm going to have a tour.

3:03:36SpeakerAnd then I'm going to have Rick Steves, hopefully he'll be on the first tour, celebrities on the tour, and target older, wealthier demographics. And if young people want to come along and can pay it, fine, but That's going to be my one project that I put my energies into. I've been retired for five years now and just started coming out again the past year or two. I've seen a lot of opportunities, speaking at the conferences that will pay me.

3:04:10SpeakerI refuse to do something for free. Fuck that. So that's the future. Well, and can you blame them when that question was asked? It's like, you know, if you were wiser and smarter and already risked a lot of things in your younger ages, most of what I would suspect, like Rob and people are sitting back and waiting, like you said, for legitimate consistency, if you will. Right now, as the President pointed out, every state's an experiment, and it's volatile, and every industry's constantly changing.

3:04:48SpeakerAnd so long as the IRS has their foot on your neck with 280E, you know, and it's still a controlled substance, it's an experiment. But so many horses are out of the barn, and now that Wall Street and Silicon Valley are investing, it's a done deal. I mean, you know, they're not going to go back, you know. So the horses are out of the barn. I mean, it was a lost cause before.

3:05:23SpeakerThey were only getting 10%. Now it's such a lost cause that there's no going back.

3:05:34SpeakerLost cause for the government.

3:05:36BubblemanLet's hope so.

3:05:39SpeakerYeah, let's hope so. I like the cannabis lifestyle tours. Bubble Man and I talked about that before with Jamaica and stuff. And I think a whole friendly cannabis lifestyle tour in Northern California and Oregon and really beautiful places that are epic just to be a part of the nature in itself. You know, that's a really good strategy. I would go on one of those. Well, cool. I'll sign you up once we're official.

3:06:09SpeakerIt's going to be fun. I mean, all the ones that are out there right now just focus on... You know, cannabis farms. And this is going to be breweries, wineries, fine restaurants. It's going to be cool.

3:06:32SpeakerI honestly think there's, you know, the classification of cannabis and a way of classing it up. You know, a lot of us didn't grow up to be the, you know, college humor stoners they thought we would always be. We grew up to be, you know, Solid members of the community that make pretty significant things and they can, you know, it's interesting to me, I mean, when I got to Hollywood and started living in the neighborhoods and meeting people and to realize, you know, Hugh Hefner's been a stoner since the 50s, he would just eat cookies, his thing was edibles, you know, and that so many of these people that have brought us so much Information and movies and stuff that we love.

3:07:09SpeakerI think Bill Hicks had a great routine and he's like, if you don't like drugs, go throw away all the good albums you have because all of those people use drugs. All you Beatles, all you Stones, go break them. Fuck drugs. And I think there's a lot of creative stuff that was done using cannabis and other psychedelics and other drugs throughout history and In many respects, I think we're going to have the 21st century is going to be a beautiful bloom of intelligence.

3:07:40SpeakerThere was a book called The Third Wave by Alvin Toffler that was popular before the internet. And the first wave was agricultural. The second wave was industrial. And the third wave, he felt, was going to be an intellectual that we have revolution. And I believe, in a way, we're having it now. Because now that we're able to read the news from around the world Minutes after it's happening or while it's happening, we're able to learn about things honestly in time frames that were unthinkable 30 years ago.

3:08:13SpeakerI think that's going to change the way that we view our world and we're turning it into like a global village. The earth is getting smaller every day with technology like what we're using right now. And there was a magazine started by Bernard Bruning who we're going to have on sometime. It was called Soft Secrets. And soft because that's what they referred to the drugs as, soft drugs.

3:08:37SpeakerAnd secret because no one knew what the fuck was going on. He felt like everything was a secret. And what it started as was a clipping service because in Holland there was an uneven application to the laws being basically done by the cops. So he started putting out a clipping service to all the other coffee shops because they were like activists at their time. They were daring to be open.

3:09:00SpeakerAnd It was to show the people where there was liberal and how they could compare to what was happening in other jurisdictions. And it helped Holland in a huge way. I mean, that's kind of what Facebook and BuzzFeed and we're all doing when we're, you know, disseminating articles we find relevant are every day. So that concept is like magnified times a billion with the internet and we're all learning.

3:09:28SpeakerI mean, everybody wants to criticize everybody for being stuck in their phones, but it means you're either looking at pictures or reading. That's the only fucking thing you can do on your phone, right? And if people are learning... Man, I'm not mad that it's from a Technicolor screen and not a piece of papyrus. I'm not pissed it's not carved into a rock. You know, let them learn because I think learning is what's changing everything.

3:09:50SpeakerYou know, that's my little thought. But you know what, I've been doing dabs and I just made it to number 20 and I think I found the rosin entry.

3:10:03SpeakerThat's pretty obvious, I think, right there, you know. So, it smells very fragrant.

3:10:10BubblemanWell, maybe it's time for a rosin dab. Someone was saying that I haven't been talking and I looked pissed off. Sorry for looking pissed off. That's my I'm listening face.

3:10:21SpeakerWell, this was my first Google, what do you call them, Hangouts?

3:10:25BubblemanYes.

3:10:25SpeakerI've never done it before, so it was a cool experience. I mean, I've done Skype, but this Google one I've never used.

3:10:35BubblemanYeah, it's kind of unique being able to have, you know, up to 10 people total, I guess, on the panel that you can be able to talk to, and it also goes live through YouTube, so there's like 750 people watching live, and then there's a YouTube box, which is about 10 seconds delayed from the Google chat that we're on now, and so it all forwards through, and We usually get a good 10,000 people in the first two or three days that see it, so it's got pretty good exposure.

3:11:08SpeakerCool. Well, thank you for having me. I've got to run.

3:11:12BubblemanWell, thanks for coming on, Tom. Much appreciated. I'm glad that we finally got you.

3:11:15SpeakerThanks for joining us, Tom, so much. Nice meeting you all electronically, and maybe we can do it again sometime. Absolutely. All right. Thank you, Tom. See you. Have a nice day.

3:11:29Etienne FontanI look forward to that day.

3:11:32SpeakerBong Rep. Wow, Mark. You know, Mark, I think it's kind of cool what you've done because I, you know, there's not a lot of exposure to Rob Clark on video on YouTube. There's not a lot of exposure of Tom. I mean, you bringing guys like Mel Frank and having these discussions, I think this is, for me, it's like a kid in a candy store and I really enjoy it.

3:11:55SpeakerI'm happy to be part of it. It's a lot of fun.

3:11:58BubblemanI think it's good for sure. Sure, I've definitely become that, you know, for the longest time my YouTube channel was just about me trying to make videos and trying to get people to like them and watch them. And finally when it got to a point where I felt like there was some sort of traction here, Hash Church erupted and sort of took over that traction. So I'm really happy that it worked out the way it did as well.

3:12:23BubblemanI don't have to make near as many videos these days. And we still get to meet once a week and hammer out good conversation in regards to what's going on in our industry and in our community. Because I guess it's a multi-dimensional thing for a lot of us that it is a community, it is an industry, it is an economy, it is all these different things. It's a medicine, a pure enjoyment.

3:12:53SpeakerI like the education of this house church. I've learned a lot. I don't know, you know, before you did the house church, we'd be all doing a Skype or what was that other one? There was a couple that we did. We'd just get baked, you know. Tiny chat, yeah, that's right. That sort of stuff. And the stuff that's been put on here, like listening to Mark talk and Tony, Horatio, ATN, everybody on there.

3:13:20SpeakerTodd... They got no shit in every aspect of what they're talking about. They're not just getting high talking about something they heard somebody else say. They got some shit going on, and it's awesome. Well, I bring a bonger up to the table, and I bring my dry sift and stuff. I love listening to everybody go. And sometimes there's been some heated conversations and discussions, and I love how Todd fires up.

3:13:47SpeakerTodd fires right up. Just, you can see it. Just, what? It's awesome. Fuck, I love it. Hats off to Hash Church, and like Todd said, thanks, Mark, for doing it, because it brings a lot of people together.

3:14:04BubblemanIndeed. Well, I'm stoked on all the people that are in the chat. You know, I wish they had a louder voice in a sense, but I'm glad that... I pay what attention I can to the chat and ask the questions that they ask as often as we can. They're the people that make it feel like you're doing it for a reason. Because if you're trying to educate people and no one's listening, it's... Well, that's just not efficient.

3:14:32SpeakerWell, can I throw this thought out here? When I first met Jack, we used to do rallies at the Federal Building on Wilshire Boulevard. He would get a permit and then camp out on their front fucking yard and use the little thing as a stage and we would literally have a pot party on the federal property because the feds wouldn't come arrest us. We couldn't step on the sidewalk technically because LAPD had jurisdiction on the sidewalk.

3:14:58SpeakerAnd this was my induction to what Jack did and it blew my mind. I mean, We'd all smoke out. And to be truthful, we never had 700 people on the lawn at once. I mean, that was no way. I mean, to think that there's this many people tuning in and thinking. To me, it's the reason I wake up early on Sundays because I would not fucking wake up early on Sundays.

3:15:23SpeakerI'll be really honest about that.

3:15:26BubblemanI totally agree.

3:15:27SpeakerYeah, it's true. I'm not even lying.

3:15:32Etienne FontanYeah, I don't get up early for any other reason. This is the only thing I actually will set my clock for to be up for because, yeah, it's a fascinating study in the use of technology and access of the individual grower person user in chat to a panel of experts to get feedback. It's very rare in industries that would have people so openly do this, you know.

3:15:56Etienne FontanThey'd probably charge you to do this, but I... Can't thank you enough, Boban, and the entire panel, because I kind of feel like I'm back in my activist days, but, you know, I don't talk in communicating, because we always have, after 20 years doing this and working along great activists, you know, through the years, we have a great deal of knowledge, and we have no way to convey it, so this has been a great vehicle for us to convey and get the message out so that we can find the next Debbie Goldsberry, the next Todd McCormick, the next generation of Of people who are going to, you know, continue to fight the struggle because things change.

3:16:34Etienne FontanAs I said earlier when we were talking about resolutions, you know, we still have hard work to do, people. You know, the laws haven't changed yet, you know. We don't want to end up like Ohio and get subjected to a terrible law that we have to vote down, you know, but that could very well be the case in any of these states. So, you know, stay aware, stay vigilant.

3:16:51Etienne FontanWe'll try and do our best to keep you as informed Thank you so much for joining us.

3:17:16BubblemanYou guys are all naturals at it. It just happens naturally. You just have to push yourself up, get into the seat, and the next thing you know, the joints are lit, the bongs are going, the vape's happening, and everyone's doing their thing, which is... It's been a pretty darn fun thing for 67 weeks in a row. I was laying in bed last night thinking about how completely ridiculous that is, and it's kind of like a...

3:17:40BubblemanIt's almost like a thing where when you're trying to manifest... A success or what you think, you know, to me a success is something that people want to pay attention to, that's something that people are excited about, and that it's self-sufficient, it continues itself, its energy pushes on. And of course, that's what I was trying to do with my channel, to create that sort of success. Now, from a past church, and if I wasn't paying careful attention, I might not have recognized The success of this particular channel, Bubble Man's World, has really been this show.

3:18:19BubblemanSo, yeah. Thank you guys for making that possible.

3:18:26SpeakerThat's really cool, Mark. Yeah. It's about community. I think when you tune into that, it's... You know, people, when I... It's funny, because when... You know, I went through prison and stuff, and I got out of prison, and people were like, you should make a documentary about everything you went through. I was like, no, no, no. And when I met Adam and Brett and they were making a movie about cannabis, that's what I wanted to focus on.

3:18:48SpeakerAnd I need a lot of people that want to make it about ego, that want to make it about themselves. And it's really not where the message is at. When you look at the culture high, fuck, there could be a documentary on Richard Branson, Snoop Dogg, Wiz Khalifa, Joe Rogan, any of those fucking people. But they're all talking about cannabis, which is really what we should all be talking about.

3:19:09SpeakerIt's not really about the ego, you know. It's about really the community and the culture. And I think Hash Church kind of represents the diversity and such. And people are tuning into that. You know, I'm not dissing you. I like your videos. I've always have tuned in, honestly. I have envied your life for a long time. You live in this peaceful mountainous escape with all the toys and you're always happy.

3:19:33SpeakerI watched it like down here in America being prosecuted and getting shit stolen like god damn. Why didn't I move to Canada? But it's kind of cool, man. And to me what it reminds me of is like meeting at Positronix. It literally is like Tom walking in, sitting down, and finally being able to ask questions to somebody that to me was, you know, this guy was a, I don't even know the right word.

3:20:02SpeakerHe was like a mythical person that delivered information that was unbelievably useful to me at an age where you couldn't find it anywhere. And he says jokingly, oh, you would have found it somewhere else. Actually, no. If you erase, you know, Mel Frank, Rob Clark, You know, Ed Rosenthal and Tom Alexander from the planet. We have a lot less cannabis information disseminated in the 70s and 80s.

3:20:31SpeakerI hate to say it, but there would almost be no one else, dare I say. I would like to add Professor Raphael Mishulam to that list, please. He's different. You know what? His science was great, but in all honesty, if you know this story, Dr. Todd McCoria, who put the compendium together, the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission Report, which was a 100-year compendium on cannabis. When in 63 Mishulam discovered THC, it became a classified compound in America.

3:21:03SpeakerSo Dr. Todd McCorea in the 60s working for the federal government as a doctor who took an oath I felt like his oath was compromised when he learned that this beneficial organic compound was being classified by the government and they were actually lying about it on the flip side of the fence. So he was like an early day whistleblower. And anyone that wants to look him up, it's T-O-D and it's M-I-K-U-R-I-Y-A, Micorea.

3:21:32SpeakerAnd it's fantastic. This guy was, he sadly passed away of cancer, but he was one of the Bay Area's first doctors, and really him and Lester Grinspoon were some of the pioneers of this. And, you know, Mishulam's work was great, but it was on a different level that was not reachable by, if you will, you know, us middle class citizens. And Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal really started that, and then Tom Alexander really piped in too.

3:22:00SpeakerAnd they reached us, if that makes sense. May I add something? Mishulam discovered not only the active ingredient, but their lab basically flushed out the workings of the endocannabinoid system, which is going to completely revolutionize medicine and the way medicine is practiced. So to me, that is worthy of a Nobel Prize in medicine. And as long as he stays alive and as long as some of this prohibition goes by the wayside and some of this medicine actually gets to the clinic and gets to patients, he will win the Nobel Prize in medicine.

3:22:40SpeakerThere's no question about it as long as he stays alive because the impact on that research that that's had in a broader sense in a medical and scientific community It's unparalleled, unparalleled in our lifetime. There's nothing that's like that. Dr. Well, it's different. I don't disagree that his work has been phenomenal, but he didn't write grow books that caused guys like me and others to go plant seeds in their closet and grow bud.

3:23:10SpeakerMel Frank, Ed Rosenthal, Rob Clark, and Tom Alexander are four of the most seminal All of these authors in our culture and later on because of them introducing me to urban gardening, that brought me into the understanding of Ralph Mitchell and his significant contributions. But he wouldn't consider himself a grow book author. It would be a demeaning thing to do. Oh, no. No. I totally agree with you.

3:23:37SpeakerIt's a different classification of people. And I'm not trying to argue with you. I like the guy a lot. I think The Scientist was one of the coolest documentaries that I watched in 2015. I'm a huge fan of his work. Don't take that. But it's different. Yeah, to me, as a chemist, as a practicing chemist who works in cannabis, To me, he's the Beethoven of this field.

3:24:06SpeakerI mean, he's basically the guy who has basically laid out the landscape for a new generation of chemists that include myself to come in and really take cannabis chemistry to the next level. And I think the other thing I'd like to say about Mishulam is that, you know, And I think it comes so clear in that movie, The Scientist, Todd, you're right, I think it's the best movie I watched also last year, which was that he's such a humble, unassuming man, and for such an important piece of science to come from such a really not an arrogant individual, I mean, he just, I think he embodies the spirit of the plant.

3:24:52SpeakerWithout really being the spokesman for the movement or anything, everyone knows that, again, it's a wonderful thing when you can look back at scientific literature and you can just see this whole story unfold as it was illustrated in The Scientist. First there's the discovery of the active component, and then the notion that, well, this active component is It's not just a mistake that this is in this plant and it excites us.

3:25:22SpeakerThe notion that they took it to the next level, that's what science does. Any successful experiment basically suggests ten new experiments to run. The way he contributed to this field was so organic. Discovering the active ingredient and then discovering the endocannabinoid system. Ultimately, now the National Institutes of Health and the National Cancer Institute have basically come out and have actually said in publication, in writing, that they believe that the endocannabinoid system mediates all human diseases, all human sicknesses or medical conditions somehow are related to the endocannabinoid system.

3:26:09SpeakerIt's absolutely unparalleled in our lifetime for contributions to the medical field, which is why he won a Nobel in medicine. Dr. In my upcoming book, Grow Medicine, Dr. Lester Grinspoon writes about what he's calling caniopathic medicine. He feels that because all of these cannabinoid-derived medicines come from one source, that they deserve their own branch in medicine. And I think he's, of course, I completely understand, and I think he's completely correct.

3:26:38SpeakerAnd I think that this will get acknowledged, especially as, you know, Mishulam's second pivotal invention, or third, really, after, you know, he did CBD, then THC, and then endocannabinoids. I mean, finding that, you know, anandamide was amazing, you know, and a lot of people don't realize the contributions he made all the way through this to us. It's fantastic. I think the absolutely fascinating thing is what he leaves us with at the end of the movie, which is that the manifestation of different cannabinoid levels in the body determines one's personality and one's mood and whether you're happy or whether you're sad, how you're going to react in a stressful situation, how you'll react in a blissful situation is all a manifestation of the endocannabinoids that are being released and binding to these receptors in our bodies.

3:27:30SpeakerWe only know We have a handful of these receptors and a handful of these molecules. For me, the fascination is let's try to figure out more of those molecules. I think that the fact that anandamide is a naturally occurring cannabinoid, it's not on Schedule 1. That might be, again, something to go after in terms of looking at maybe analogs that are safer for people with medical conditions.

3:28:00SpeakerTo look at how the body produces these compounds and understand what part of the medical condition leads to the deficiency of those is really going to give us the underpinning of how we understand how to treat diseases from here on out. No question about it. I think you guys are both saying the same thing. You have two different short lists. You got in the field and in the lab going at the same time while some guys were growing from seed and going, man, smell this, smoke this, this is unbelievable.

3:28:31SpeakerThe guys in the lab, like Meshula was like, well, let's dig into that. Let's find out what's going on. And those two lists happen at the same time. Depending if you're coming from a cultivator or from a scientist, those two lists would be adversely different. I agree with both because my first book was Mel Frank's, but then the second one, Very quickly was into Meshula and stuff.

3:28:53SpeakerSo it was, I think they both have significant pathways, if you will, in influencing our entire movement. And then we've got the middle ground, all the pioneers and activists that pushed through with it.

3:29:18SpeakerSo, Bubble Man, what are you smiling about?

3:29:20BubblemanI was waiting for D420K to say bong rip.

3:29:24SpeakerAh, bong rip. I was checking my email, listening to you guys. Listen, man, you have one fucking job on Hash Church. I know. Bong rip, motherfuckers! Now let's do a big bong rip talk.

3:29:43BubblemanI want to hear everybody fucking... Get this year started off properly here, boys. 2016, I mean, come on.

3:29:53SpeakerHave you seen the mountain men do those 13 gram, 20 gram, 30 gram hits? I want to see a bomb rip like that on Ash Church today.

3:30:07BubblemanI want to see someone do one and not let all the smoke... Burn off the nail. I mean, what's the purpose of just taking a big hit and you're taking like the first 10% and then letting it burn off?

3:30:20SpeakerIt's like filling a thimble with a fire hose. Come on.

3:30:24BubblemanThimble with a fire hose.

3:30:27SpeakerThat is the classic move. You know, you're like, hey, what are you doing? Well, I'm going to take a four gram hit and let two grams of it evaporate off the nail before I hit it and during while I hit it. So really I took a quarter gram hit. I had a friend who used to constantly roll fat joints. I'm not just talking about fat like the size of my finger.

3:30:50SpeakerThis guy would roll quarter ounces at a time in a joint. His whole purpose for rolling large joints, he was a cultivator, and his saying was, a large joint means that the herb is plentiful. That's the message I need to send to my people. He was always in a social situation where there were several people smoking, so yeah, Put that joint to good use, but his purpose for rolling large joints was just to let people know that the herb is plentiful.

3:31:21HoratioCool.

3:31:24HoratioSo are these gram dabs saying that the derb is plentiful, or?

3:31:28SpeakerThat's for sure. It does, depending on the return. You know what? I had Brian Phillips over for New Year's Eve. And we left his left behind, you know, but he left more, but he really does like to taste it and he does what I consider waste it, but he likes it at low temperatures and a lot of it and he gets a great flavor profile and I understand why he does it.

3:32:00SpeakerIt's the same with big joints. I like joints that are about one and a half to two grams because I like how that tastes with very little paper. So, you know, and Whatever. I use self-titrated joint anyway, so I end up smoking it slowly. But the globs I get in a way, too. At a low temperature, all those oils, all those terpenes, man, it's an unbelievable flavor profile.

3:32:25SpeakerIt's nearly psychedelic if you take a deep enough hit and you can hold it in. I mean, I don't think we need the hotter temperatures in a way. I think we're still learning how to use this stuff on so many levels. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, no, I support puffing in any way that they want to puff.

3:32:45BubblemanI was really merely only critiquing someone bragging about, say, taking a huge dab while really wasting most of it and just getting, like, the first little bit in. It's like, okay, great, yeah, that was a huge dab, but, like, it's kind of a huge waste, too. Dabs are plentiful, maybe. Dabs are plentiful. I hear they grow.

3:33:06SpeakerIt's not always if you appreciate it. I mean, it's like, you know, that's, you know, not to sound like weird, it's not like he's like a kid eating a triple cheeseburger or something and, you know, his body's going to shit for it. I mean, in some ways we're seeing that cannabinoids are really good for our body and the fact that he, you know, that I would say that this kid had a brain tumor.

3:33:24SpeakerA lot of people might not know that, but Vernon got into making hash because he had a fucking brain tumor. And a lot of what got him into using high pH water when he started making water hashes because his mom wanted him to drink high alkaline water because she heard it would help him and she didn't want her son to fucking die. So he was like, okay, mom, I'll drink high pH water.

3:33:42SpeakerYou know, really, he's just, you know, and he found out, oh, wow, guess what? Guess what? The oil does in high pH water. And, I mean, it's been like that. Like, accidental innovations, if you will, along the way. He won a fuck Mickey award for fucking, like, best shatter photos. You know, some shit that he's been putting shatter photos up before most motherfuckers knew what it was.

3:34:03SpeakerAnd it is true. So Todd, did I hear this right? He was using high pH water to make water hash? Yeah, we've talked about it a lot of times. It's not a secret, but one day he was showing me features and a long time ago he turned me on to what he uses, which is a I forget the name of his particular machine, but a lot of machines.

3:34:24SpeakerIt's called water ionization, and it uses titanium plates and electricity to split the atoms, if you will, and you've got two faucets. One's high pH and one's acidic, and it's non-chemical, so this is why a lot of people have been drinking high alkaline water. It's using hydrolysis. Dr. There's no such thing as non-chemical, man. Everything's chemicals. Let me say it to you like this, Mark. When we garden, okay, when we want to put, you know, for instance, we're trying to combat powdery mildew.

3:35:00SpeakerWe use potassium bicarbonate. What that basically does is it brings the pH of the water up to a high alkaline position so that the mold can exist on it. So what we do is we use a chemical to artificially get the water pH to where we want it, okay. So when we're using titanium plates and electrolysis, I say it's non-chemical because we're using electricity in place of the chemical because the water will go back to neutral.

3:35:26SpeakerIt only stays in that high alkaline state for a limited amount of time. Nature works its forces back upon it, and it creeps back down towards neutral. But that said, you haven't seen the video of vegetable oil being poured into 11.5 pH water? I don't have to see a video. I've been doing that in the laboratory for like 20 years. Okay, so then you will understand that actually water does act like a solvent depending on the pH, or it's emulsification.

3:35:56SpeakerSo it emulsifies the oil to such a microparticle. So what he was doing one day is he showed me that he was using his counter unit to fill up his water in his hash machine, and I went, you use high pH water to make your hash? And he goes, yeah. And I went, Can I show you a video? And I showed him the video and he went, wow!

3:36:17SpeakerAnd you know what, now starting to understand the way that the oils coagulate and the way they emulsify is really the key to separating these things and making them. And he has done such a good job of capturing The terpene profiles and the cannabinoid profiles of the plants he's worked with, and honestly, the hash he would hand me almost seemed like it was from a little magical wizard that came from some crazy place.

3:36:43SpeakerI would give him weed, he'd bring it back unmarked, and I didn't need marks. You open it up, and it smells like what you handed him. And it smells better because it's amplified. It's like he took the equalizer and went doo-doo-doo and cranked it up. And you're like, wow, headphones. That's literally what his hash is like. It's that amazing. Anyone that's tried it will be like, yeah, that's exactly true.

3:37:06SpeakerAnd he built up a real reputation for a while, in California at least, because he was just turning out totally amazing stuff. And that said, the secret to his water hash was high alkaline. How high was the pH? Because carbonate's not going to get it that high. It's only going to be like about 8 or 9. I think as the machine goes up, I'm not sure which machine he has.

3:37:29SpeakerSo the machines that are available now, as they become newer, they're able to go more acidic and higher alkaline. So I think that their range right now is 2 to 12 or 2 to 12 and a half. You know, some of the earlier machines could go like four to like let's say eight or nine. If you wanted to go over nine, you had to use chemicals. So it's been actually them adding more titanium plates that they've been able to figure out like these machines and how to bring the pH up.

3:37:56SpeakerBut You know, if you look on the internet, there's some cool examples of like a hotel in Santa Monica using acidic water to sterilize as an anti-bacteria, and then they're using high alkaline water as a degreaser. So now the only chemicals they're using to clean in this whole place are not chemicals. They're just this high alkaline or high pH water. And they say in the video, it was like a news clip.

3:38:23SpeakerI was living in LA when I saw it. It's one of the things that got me into this. And, well, I think we might all move to this because as we start to understand, you know, water better, if you will, we may replace a lot of the household chemicals that we use every day. Dr. No way. No way. You know why? Corrosion. Can't do it. Can't do it.

3:38:45SpeakerExtremes of pH will corrode things like aluminum, Even stainless steel corrodes. Don't be miffed by the word stainless. Stainless steel corrodes. Everything corrodes. It's all a matter of rate. High pH or low pH can induce corrosion on metal surfaces. That's what prohibits it from being used widely as a cleaner and why they need to use Thanks for watching.

3:39:35SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

3:39:49SpeakerAny of these lipids or any of these fats or waxes can certainly be emulsified at high pH. I don't know what low pH is going to do, but the thing about high pH is that you're in the pH regime now where you're going to start deprotonating your cannabinoid acids. Those cannabinoid acids are now not going to be the carboxylic acid with the H group there, but If these are potassium salts, they're going to be basically the potassium carboxylates.

3:40:18SpeakerThose things are going to have different rates of decarboxylation than the parent carboxylic acids that they came from. So, yeah, there's a lot of chemistry that you can do to sort of play around with that. I'm not exactly sure. You can call the Sheridan Delfina Hotel in Santa Monica and tell them they're fucking up, man. Well, I don't have to call them to tell them to fuck up.

3:40:40SpeakerI mean, the point is, is that you can... I'm joking, but I put the link to the thing in there, actually, and they are using it, Mark. So you can watch the... You can probably use it, but again, if it comes in contact with a metal surface... You can't keep corrosion from happening. You just can't. It's just, you know, corrosion happens. You can't keep it from happening.

3:41:03SpeakerAnd the thing is, maybe they have it in a system where, again, it doesn't come in contact with metal surfaces. There you go.

3:41:10HoratioMark, if they're using electronically shifted pH water, would the water then, because it normally returns back to neutral, would it be a temporary oxidizing event?

3:41:23SpeakerI think what he's doing there, and I'm not too sure, I need to become more familiar with it, is somehow they're doing some type of electrolysis procedure if it requires electricity. And so that means electrons are going in, and it sounds like there's a titanium electrode in there, so I have to Understand what the balance redox equation is to understand how that's made and how many volts is that E0 which basically pushes the reaction from the right over to the left or from the left to the right.

3:41:54SpeakerSo when I see all that, I'll be able to determine how viable it is. But yeah, there is no magic solution for taking water and treating it with some magic wand and creating some Some magic juice. I mean, you could certainly do that without any device at all by just adding base or by adding acid, and that just changes the pH of the water simply. So it sounds like it's a shotgun to kill a mosquito.

3:42:24SpeakerYeah, but Mark, it's for drinking. I put like ionizers. They've been making them for years, Mark. I had no idea. You weren't familiar. No, no, no, no. I know about ionizers. I'm not saying that that's bad. I'm just saying that if you have an extreme of pH that comes in contact with a metal surface, it's going to corrode, period. You can't keep it from happening. I mean, you can put any corrosion agents in there, and you can put other stuff in there.

3:42:47SpeakerYou could maybe coat the metal, but metal comes in contact with extreme of pH. Corrosion happens.

3:42:54HoratioSo what you're talking about is if I had basically a metal bubble hash machine and I perpetually used high pH water, it would rust sooner? It depends what the metal is made out of. Is it stainless? Yeah, like brewery equipment. Like I get the concept, but because the water basically isn't staying at high pH because it has no synthetic additive, it's basically temporary and then it shifts back.

3:43:20HoratioSo it's not as damaging as if I did do it with pH up.

3:43:24SpeakerSo it really depends on the pH. It depends on how high the pH is. And it also depends on what are the other materials in the solution. Now, I can tell you that some metals tend to pickle the surface of the metal. And so I guess the easiest example to think of is the Statue of Liberty, right? The Statue of Liberty is made out of copper. Copper, if you can get a penny, is a shiny metal, right?

3:43:52SpeakerIt's got a luster to it. But the Statue of Liberty is this light green color because it's formed an oxide surface on the copper, which now inhibits further migration of oxygen and water into the copper layers to keep on corroding it. If that were to peel off like rust, like it does on iron or steel, Yeah, eventually the Statue of Liberty would have been corroded years ago.

3:44:21SpeakerBut the fact that it's copper, what happens is that it forms a copper oxide inert coating on the surface. And that might be what happens With your system, Horatio, is that you've pickled the surface of the reactor itself. Wait, I didn't pickle anything. I didn't pickle anything. No, no, no. Maybe you didn't know you pickled it, but maybe it's been pickled. Oh. That you're forming oxide surfaces on the metal surface would inhibit further corrosion into the metal.

3:44:52SpeakerYou've been pickling. Hold on.

3:44:54HoratioYou've been caught pickling. I do pickle, but in glassware. Don't bring up my pickling past. But in relationship to me, if you caught me in a situation with water in a bucket that was adjusted with its pH, it would be pH down in brewery equipment, and I would be using carbonation. So what's the pH in that? Whatever beer is, wherever beer goes. So I would just be using distilling equipment for alcohol, but just using water.

3:45:24SpeakerYeah, so that's pretty close to neutral, right? I mean, I don't think that that really is an extreme of pH, is it? I don't know.

3:45:32HoratioI just got my keg of last week. That's exploring basic kegging, but if you explored other brewery equipment, it would be safety rated. As long as everything is rated for drinking.

3:45:46SpeakerYou're in the four range of pH with beer.

3:45:49HoratioAnd if you're carbonating hard, like champagne, like my champagne bites hard. How, does that go deeper or is that about the same range? Because I'm not obviously using alcohol.

3:45:59SpeakerYeah, so basically when you dissolve carbon dioxide into water, actually carbon dioxide is not very soluble in water, but it does create, so carbon dioxide Let's see. How do I think about this? Okay. Bicarbonate. When we take sodium bicarbonate and you add vinegar to it, it makes CO2. The reverse reaction is CO2 basically reacting with water to make carbonic acid. If you were to add dry ice to water or if you were to bubble CO2 into water, it lowers the pH because you're making a small amount of carbonic acid.

3:46:36SpeakerBut I think at that level, you're probably not going to see too much corrosion. I think you start getting around, you know, about three or two and a half, you're going to start seeing corrosion and pitting on the surface, even on stainless steel.

3:46:49HoratioWell, that's just a vat acid. I don't know what I'm doing at that point with my day. So I'll keep it in range.

3:46:56SpeakerI don't know. I know that most wines and things are the three, four range. Maybe that's what the bite's about. I don't know if carbon...

3:47:08SpeakerIt's going to help you out. It's just fluff. You know? You're still Pickler. You're Pickler.

3:47:20HoratioStop bringing up my fermenting. I'm a sauerkraut man, but I also pickle meat.

3:47:28SpeakerI think pickles might possibly be the most perfect food in the world, right?

3:47:34HoratioI'm a pickles and peanut butter and crackers guy as well, if you keep bringing up the pickle word and asking for secrets.

3:47:42Etienne FontanThey're delicious.

3:47:44BubblemanGiving away all his secrets here on Hash Church 67.

3:47:49HoratioIf you're, yeah, everybody, if you really want an experience and it'll help you lose weight, pickles, peanut butter, and crackers. You'll be satisfied in about five. And if you're not, then you have the munchies.

3:48:01SpeakerOkay, so here's a little tidbit of information. If you start feeling that scratchiness of a sore throat and you think that you have either some type of viral or bacterial, try drinking some pickle juice. Pickle juice follows into that category of kind of like food gone bad. There's some shit in there we don't exactly know. I mean there's a lot of shit that gets extracted into the brine.

3:48:30SpeakerBut I think that the primary effect that that has is the brine creates a hyper-salinic solution over the top of the cells that just have been infected. And perhaps, I don't know, it has some type of antiviral type properties, but I know when I start feeling the scratchiness of a sore throat, I go to the pickle jar and I start drinking the juice and it seems like the sore throat goes away.

3:48:58SpeakerYou don't want to hear about cure for the migraine headache. I feel like pickle right now.

3:49:03HoratioPeople are slamming me in the chat about this pickled and peanut butter thing, and I'm like, when I lost 80 pounds, that was like my number one thing for adjusting my satiety factor so that I would stop eating. And everyone's just like, you're mad. Horatio must be pregnant. They're just going off.

3:49:27SpeakerSo do you want to hear my solution for migraine headaches? It's not a broom in your ass, is it?

3:49:38SpeakerNo, four days at a Madison Square Garden fish show. No, actually, this actually works. I haven't actually tried this, but I have a friend who swears by it. He basically takes a little bit of snuff of cayenne pepper and sniffs it, and it completely just clears out his shit. I don't know. I mean, he turns into a real monster for about a minute after he snorts that cayenne pepper.

3:50:01SpeakerBut, man, his migraine goes away. And I don't know if it's a rush of blood to the head. It might be the capsaicins. Capsaicins, again, are kind of like cannabinoids in that they have very, very specific action in that a very small amount of capsaicin can really do all kinds of different biological effects. But if anyone's suffering from migraine, try doing a little snuff of it. What am I just doing, a little snuff of that?

3:50:30Etienne FontanJust a little sniff of cayenne pepper. So what micron do you keep your cayenne sifted?

3:50:43BubblemanI go down to 23 microns with the cayenne, basically. I've got a full...

3:50:50SpeakerExperience like when you're eating really spicy hot food, your nose starts running. So I think there is some kind of trigger in there. I don't exactly know if it's all related.

3:51:00BubblemanIt definitely releases the pressure around your sinus cavity, anything hot, spicy.

3:51:07SpeakerRight. Well, anytime I get, I suffer from migraines really bad, and when I get them, there's like the pressure right here under the eyes. I'm always having to have to push on those, and then you're pushing on like right in here, and they've got temple pressure, you've got back of the head pressure. Sometimes I use a neti pot, you know, different things to try to do that.

3:51:34SpeakerBut ironically, I've found that lots of water, if I play a little guitar, it seems to make my headache go away. You know, smoke a little herb, play a little guitar, release the pressure, and maybe it's the vibrations of the guitar.

3:51:56Etienne FontanWell, when you play music, you activate all access of your brain, so you're actually opening up all your brain channels. So that's one of the great things about how I'm a big supporter of playing music. I've played bass for 30 years. I play ukulele. So when you play music, you actually, science is actually, there's actual breakdowns. And show all the different cross signals that are happening across the entire brain.

3:52:19Etienne FontanSo you're also opening up a lot of your pathways. So that may be a reason as well.

3:52:26SpeakerHmm.

3:52:28BubblemanVery interesting.

3:52:29SpeakerWell, maybe these rock stars had it all wrong, like a little bump of 25 micron cayenne, some pickling, and some guitar playing, and you know, we got...

3:52:44HoratioWho knows? People could have hit the sauerkraut and then just like sauerkraut, coke, and then I'm going to hit the stage. You never know. That's probably why the Rolling Stones are old.

3:52:55Etienne FontanThat's how they've been doing it. So you want to rock that every day?

3:52:59SpeakerYou're saying that the sauerkraut preserved them. Maybe the cocaine and the sauerkraut together was a preservation of somehow in the skin and their bodies and organs.

3:53:12SpeakerCertainly better than heroin, right? I'm waiting for the Keith Richards diet book. Obviously it's work for that old man. He's had one job his whole life. It's amazing. He's done it pretty good too, I must say. I think he's played the role of Rockstar to a T. I think he's probably had a liver transplant or something. He can afford it. He's probably got a half a billion dollars for Christ's sakes.

3:53:43BubblemanYeah, he's got to be up there for sure.

3:53:46SpeakerShit, Trance is going to rebuild him like an old fucking Chevy. They're going to be like, just rebuild him, man. Let him keep playing his guitar. We talked about this like a long time ago on Hash Church about 3D organ printing. He's probably one of those guys that's part of that project, you know, where they're just, well, we'll just print you out a new liver and... Looks like your spleen's about to go down, your gallbladder, your liver.

3:54:13SpeakerWe're going to re-up all your organs and print them out for you, get them installed, and give you another 20 years of rocking. Well, according to this bullshit website I just referenced, he's not worth half a billion. He's only worth $340 million. I'm surprised that he's worth more than Mick Jagger. That's because he did more writing. Has to do with ASCAP and BMI royalty rights on the songs.

3:54:40SpeakerYeah, but if you read about these guys from both of their... No, no, no, no, this bullshit website gives Nick a $20 million edge. It says he's worth $360 million, so old Richard gets the short end of the Stratocaster. Well, Richard's definitely partied at least $20 million in more drugs than... That was his heroin expense, right? His heroin expense cost him around $20 million. They probably had an even deal a long time ago, but he's got $20 million in, you know?

3:55:16SpeakerAnd they still put on a pretty good show. They put on a great show. There's not too many real rockers anymore. How many people can say they've been on stage 60 years? Rocking to the bone. Give Phish another 30 years, they'll be there. And doesn't suck, is the thing, no.

3:55:39SpeakerI'm kidding. I'm kidding. I love... I'm kidding. I joke. I was going to say that before you said the thing about Phish, but it seemed more poignant after you said Phish.

3:55:51SpeakerYes. Fish killed Madison Square Garden for those who are interested. They had a wonderful New Year's run. It was great. We went to all four shows. I got picked out by a guy in the crowd from Hash Church. He's like, dude, how do I know you? I know you. And then he took a picture. We took a picture and posted it on Facebook, and then his friends told him, that's the guy from Hash Church.

3:56:12SpeakerSo then he came up to me the next night, and he's like, dude, you're the guy from Hash Church.

3:56:19SpeakerThat's a sound. Rude. Therein lies the problem with the American celebrity culture. I don't know who the fuck you are, but can we take a photo? Sure! You're famous! Fucking, it's unbelievable, man. That's all I'm saying. Hey, go Donald Trump, right? That kind of person gets the president he deserves. It turned out, Todd, that we were both wearing the same shirt, so we kind of found each other because we were wearing the same shirt, and then we took a selfie just because we were wearing the same shirt, and that got posted, and His friends, who happen to be my Facebook friends, said, hey, that's the guy from Ash Church.

3:56:56SpeakerListen, don't try to... I'm joking, of course. You know, when me and ATN walk around Emerald Cup, so many people that are actually in that community are actually watching this shit these days, and everyone that said something to me was super polite and super cool, so I just want to say thank you. I think everybody gets it in an honest way, and... I'm really grateful for that in all factuality.

3:57:23SpeakerCan you do the Donald Trump duck face, though? I'm not so good at that, though. You could show it to me, and I could try to replicate it, but you've got to go first. He does that little thing where he's like... You know, it's like a little... He's got the Donald Trump duck face.

3:57:39BubblemanRight after he says, it's going to be huge. It's going to be huge.

3:57:48SpeakerLet me see if I can find a Donald Trump duck face. Don't do it. It's more like an anus to me.

3:57:56HoratioTodd, I'm still reliving your comment where you're like, we're going to be in the intellectual age. Everyone's reading on their phones. And then I mixed it with the other comment where I, everybody's just fucking off and worrying about where OJ's glove is. And I'm like, God, that's what they're reading on their phones.

3:58:13HoratioThey're looking at Kardashian's ass.

3:58:15SpeakerCome on. No, it's horrible. I do agree. Let's see here. Bomb rep. Aggressive bomb rep. Duck face. This is the last one of Hash Church. All you have to do is Google Donald Trump duck face, and there's like so many images. Donald Trump. Do it. You ever have that moment where you want to do every single dab in front of you, but you feel like if you really dab...

3:58:47Speaker20 different varieties of fucking dab shit. You'd probably be napping by 3. And I have other shit to do today. But it's all so tempting. I don't have any problems. Oh yeah, definitely. It's first world problems for sure. Greasy.

3:59:09SpeakerGreasy. I'm really glad this shit grows on trees. Yeah. No question. What a statement. We need the trees. You want a new pair? You want a t-shirt? You want that? You want to grow on trees? I used to say to my mom, money only grows on trees.

3:59:36BubblemanIt certainly does.

3:59:37SpeakerAnd if it doesn't, then cut the fucking tree down and use that. Yep. Wow!

3:59:46BubblemanAll right. Are we going to get a hit of Past Church 67 down the piper or what?

3:59:52SpeakerYeah, it was a good time, guys. Yeah, it was good. Thank you, everybody. I'm going to end it off with a nice rip. I'm down.

4:00:17SpeakerWow, cheers, everybody. That's really nice.

4:00:22BubblemanAll right, Cannabis Crusaders. Till next time. Past Church 68. Thanks, guys. Peace.