Cannabis Legalization and Medical Access

0:00BubblemanWell, good morning, good afternoon, and good evening here from episode 68 of Hash Church. I'm going to do my morning responsibilities here and send out the links to all the Hash Churchers on this early Sunday morning. Oh my goodness, I hope everyone had a great weekend and good holidays. It seems like we are now a little deeper into the new year than we were last week. Alright, get that sent off, send off that email, and do a quick send on the Facebook invitations.

0:38BubblemanIt's usually pretty quick from here once I see Etienne, then I'm no longer alone in the room, but yeah, I hope everyone had a great weekend and a great holidays, and here we are entering into 2016, really, you know, the year of cannabis. This is cannabis' year. Welcome Mark Scaldone and Mr. Etienne Fontin. Got you again, Mark. Did you? I saw Mark come in first, but maybe I'm missing it.

1:08Etienne FontanI saw there's only a me, then you, but yeah, whatever. Good morning, everybody.

1:13BubblemanYou're usually pretty on it. Hey, good morning, David.

1:18SpeakerGood morning.

1:19BubblemanHow are you doing this morning?

1:21SpeakerI'm good. I'm just going to kill my camera, though.

1:28BubblemanCan you still see me? I can see your forehead.

1:30SpeakerAll right, you don't want to see me. I'm feeling rough, looking rough. I'd just like to listen in today if at all possible.

1:38BubblemanYeah, of course, man, of course. If you have something to share, you're always welcome to use the link and come share, but you can always listen in to us on the YouTube channel as well, which is slightly delayed, but it's there as well. We've got a bunch of people in chat right now. We already have 300 people. In here. So good morning everyone, or good afternoon, or good evening, depending on where you are in the world.

2:04BubblemanI recently went and checked and I found that Hash Church is watched in over 200 of the 218 countries in the world. So that was kind of a cool little sort of metric or analytic that I was pretty stoked on.

2:18Etienne FontanHow did you find that analytic?

2:21BubblemanI went into the back end of my YouTube and I was playing around and farting around and I eventually found where the majority of people are. I think it's like the top ten countries. I just kept digging and digging and digging and eventually I got into this metric that showed me all of the different countries that the videos have been watched in and through Hash Church, I guess I have a playlist where all the Hash Churches are.

2:50BubblemanIt had 205 countries out of the 218 that YouTube does, and I just thought that was pretty awesome.

3:01Etienne FontanSo what are you puffing on this morning, sir? What's that? What are you puffing on this morning?

3:07BubblemanI have not been puffing on anything as of yet. I'm going to be puffing on here soon maybe a little bit of rosin and bubble combo with a terp dip for a wake and bake. You know, this morning I'm kind of on, what's on my mind is that Trudeau recently hired a gentleman by the name of Bill Blair. And he's kind of like known as our top cop.

3:29BubblemanHe ran the G20 summits in Toronto in 2010 where I think like the largest amount of people that had ever been arrested at an event got arrested at the G20 event, the summit event. And this guy was kind of in charge. So now Trudeau, Justin Trudeau has put this guy in charge of legalizing cannabis in Canada. So we're just kind of like, hmm, not overly certain if he was the best pick, maybe, maybe not, I don't know, it seems like, If we're just going to be getting out of the whole prohibition thing and getting out of the whole law thing, it seems like a law person might not be the best person to do that transfer of energy.

4:14BubblemanThat's just my opinion. I think I might have gone with someone maybe a little more medical based than law.

4:23Etienne FontanOur prohibition-based... Is Trudeau not... Did he not discuss the other day saying how the difficulty is going to be the international treaties, which also goes back to what we're talking about in many other hash churches, the UN treaty in 1961 by Gabriel Nahas, which is still what we're all living under the thumb of, so there still has to be some international change, and I thought U.S. would kind of really spark it with, you know, Seattle...

4:54Etienne FontanI mean, pardon me, with Washington State and Colorado initially, but now with other states coming on board, it's really kind of been ignored outright. And with your country completely going, I can see why a statesman was brought in for the initial part until the full legality of the medical aspect is allowed internationally. I mean, I can see why is all I'm saying, given the circumstances. Here in California, I was just reading this morning that Jerry Brown, the governor, Included $24.6 million for new medical marijuana regulations in the state of California for this budget year.

5:34Etienne FontanSo things are happening here as well when they actually put budget numbers next to everything all together.

5:41SpeakerRight.

5:44Etienne FontanIt will be interesting to see what countries come forward because we see that Mexico also wants to legalize. And with Canada and Mexico surrounding the United States and pushing forward. There has to be some sort of push at the UN level to really undo these treaties because if people don't know, if you receive any money from the United States government, you have to have a cannabis eradication program going on.

6:11Etienne FontanSo that statute has to be changed on top of that and we're not even looking at that. So even before you can even kickstart your law into law, if not, then the international courts will kick in and they will challenge you at that level. So it's still a sticky wicket, unfortunately.

6:27SpeakerMarcus? Yes, David. It's David. I agree with what you say. I've got some concerns about them nominating Bill Blair to that role. I can understand why because I think Trudeau is trying to appeal to the former conservative administration and maybe more conservative people. I seem to have a law enforcement background. It does cause me concerns. Though that he is a prohibitionist, but we'll just have to wait and see how that pans out.

6:58SpeakerBut I think, as has been pointed out by numerous people, I don't think it was Trudeau himself who pointed out that they would be contravening the UN charters and the UN regulations. I think it's been pointed out by other people. And a certain number of high profile individuals have already pointed out, including One of our most preeminent lawyers, Kirk Tussaud, who won our derivatives case, he's pointed out that Canada is already in contravention of those regulations with our MNPR.

7:27SpeakerSo we've already had some sort of track record of just going it alone, and certainly there are five jurisdictions in the USA, four states and the District of Columbia that are in contravention of UN regulations. So there's a number of places that are already going against it.

7:46Etienne FontanRight.

7:48BubblemanYeah, it's an interesting method of appealing to those conservatives to bring in the top cop from Toronto. I just, you know, if it gets things done, then so be it. But at the same time, I'm just kind of like, it's constantly, and I don't know if this bothers you, David, but the last sort of leg that Prohibition has to stand on, which is interesting because I've always said the last leg of prohibition that will tumble will be the children.

8:18BubblemanWho can argue against a sick child having access to something that could potentially, A, improve the quality of their life immensely, or even better, B, put their disease into remission.

8:33SpeakerI agree, but again, I think what we do is, traditionally prohibitionists have continually tried, and it's been a conscious decision, to mix prohibition and illegality with medical access. I continually like to keep them apart. I was told by Raphael Mishulam, he said, keep the two separate, he said. He said, legally, every adult in a jurisdiction should, whatever jurisdiction, should vote on whether this product should be legal.

9:03SpeakerYou either decide, yeah, we like the current regulations where the whole system is run by the underworld and by the criminal element, and that works really well for us, or you want to legalize it. But he said, leave that aside. Medically, if a patient requires it, A doctor prescribes it. What compassionate society would have any issue with it? So I continually like to remind people to keep them separate.

9:27SpeakerAnd in Canada, I'm really keen that with the process and the procedure to legalization, we keep medical access at the front because that has not been done in other jurisdictions. We must keep medical access, particularly for these children. I mean, that would break anyone's heart, but we must keep them at the front of the line for access.

9:48BubblemanWell, at what point in time do we understand, you know, when we come to the understanding of the importance of the preventative aspect of cannabis, do we realize that all use of cannabis is potentially preventative and medical, and that suddenly the lineup gets longer and longer and longer as to who... Because, I mean, we were in the same boat, David, when Hillary started the BC Compassion Club back in 97...

10:13BubblemanIt was really kind of like, you know, if you had headaches or back pains, you were not getting a card to the club. Like, it was really if you were terminal. If you were terminal, you were in, and then it was like, no problem, we can sell to terminal. And it was like, that's who the lineup was back then. And slowly but surely, the lineup became more and more like people that weren't just extremely hurting people, but some of the people that were like, well...

10:39BubblemanI don't want to get that hurting. I want to use cannabis as a preventative, as a daily, improve the quality of my life to the point where I might not have to get so bad that I come here under that different platform.

10:56SpeakerI agree. I think there's even been an evolution from regulators like Health Canada. You know with the start of NMAR back in 2001, There was a list, a very prescriptive list of half a dozen or seven different conditions that a patient had to have to be prescribed. That all changed just under two years ago with the MMAR when that came, when the MMPR came in, where now any medical condition is prescribed, it's between a doctor and a patient.

11:22SpeakerAnd that's been a perfectly logical transition and acceptance.

11:28Etienne FontanWell, here in the United States, the doctors had to sue for that right because they were initially, when the law changed, they were being harassed by, back then, the drugs are. So, I mean, at least you guys have government access and understanding where we can't even get that far. Look who Obama puts in charge of the Drug Enforcement Agency. Look at the people that we're still dealing with, ignorant prohibitionists, where at least you're appointing people who can at least speak to the issue.

11:58Etienne FontanBecause every issue is valid in there. We're still trying to prove our validity in there still.

12:04SpeakerAm I on or off the camera?

12:08BubblemanHey, welcome Cheryl. We can hear you. We just can't see you.

12:10CherylOh, hey guys.

12:14BubblemanWe're just talking about cannabis in Canada and America and access and children and You know, what's going on in the world in 2016. So welcome to the conversation. I hope everything is going good over there at the Hayley Rose Foundation.

12:31CherylYeah, yeah, everything's going good. Hayley's doing excellent.

12:37BubblemanDo you want to give our viewers a little reminder as to who you are and who Hayley is and how you guys fit into all of this here in Canada?

12:49CherylSure. My daughter is Haley Jade Rose. She is now 22, turning 23 in April. She's been fighting LGS, Lennox-Gastaut Syndrome, since age of 6. Multiple seizures, difficult to control, never good prognosis. In 2000, beginning of 2008, I was told in January that she would not make it to the following Christmas, definitely, and most likely not till September for the following school year. We started medical cannabis at the end of May, and she has been on just

13:34CherylRight away the immediate EEGs done within five weeks of starting cannabis showed marked improvement and they no longer believed that while on cannabis therapy that she had an epileptic encephalopathy anymore. We then realized that she also had what is called catamenial seizures due to estrogen and progesterone Fluctuations. Estrogen is a pro-convulsant and progesterone is an anti-convulsant. So we knocked out LGS right away with her strain, Haley's Comet.

14:10CherylIt's a one-to-one strain. It also has CBG, THCV, and some CBC in it as well.

14:20CherylAnd over the last seven to eight years, we've been battling catamenial seizures and increasing high CBD hemp During her high seizure times, we've managed to flatline all her seizure activity. Now, obviously, we've, you know, tried a couple different things on different preps and stuff of the medicine. And what we, she's only since April of last year had four grandmas, and that was due to right away when we changed the preparation.

14:54CherylAnd one small absence type seizure since then. And that's it.

15:02BubblemanWow, that's incredible. And so it's that sensitive that just changing the procedure can affect the seizures?

15:10CherylWell, yeah, we're also honing in. I'm actually just about... Perfect what her actual dosing of her Haley's Comet and of CBD needs to be. And I'm actually looking at a 1.1% CBD to 1 THC for during her regular seizure times and just combating the LGS. And then during her high seizure time, we will increase the CBD to 1.5.

15:45CherylNow there's also the, we've noticed some differences in a couple of different, we have the first generation and the second generation and we're actually studying those two in depth right now for any differences and for what differences the THCV as well as CBG and CBC make as well in her healing.

16:10BubblemanVery cool. Yeah, I like that. You know, too many people giving all the, you know, everything to CBD or THC or there's a whole profile in there that's going on. So it was really nice to hear you mention those other cannabinoids. And of course, we never forget those important modulating terpenes that are in there as well.

16:32CherylYeah, that's, I forgot to add that. Yeah, we will be as well testing the differences throughout the The first and second generation is finding out exactly what, because if Haley has to, if we need to, say we didn't have Haley's Comet and we had to replicate it, there's only one high THC strain that she prefers with her high CBD, and that would be the original old school hash plant.

16:59CherylAnd so, of course, then we start looking at, well, what are the terpenes and what are the similarities Between the hash plant, the Haley Comet, the second generation Haley's Comet, and the CBD. And I think when we start really looking at these things, we're going to find out a whole lot more on ways to get better seizure control and such.

17:19BubblemanYeah, absolutely. Hey, welcome, Todd. We're just talking to Cheryl Rose, a little bit about her daughter and some of the things she's been going through in the last, well, geez, it seems like most of her life.

17:34SpeakerMarcus, can I ask, Cheryl, good morning, it's touch, how are you doing?

17:42CherylHi, there, I'm back.

17:44SpeakerOkay, I wanted to ask you something I've always been very curious to know, because you've done some incredible work and I've been trying to keep track of what you've been doing recently, trying to get the, really zone in tightly on the dosages for Hayley at different times of the month. But something that always made me really curious was something that sounded like some sort of new age speak, but the variances on the time of the month for Hayley and how her dosages and her seizure activity varied so wildly with the passage of the month.

18:16SpeakerCan you tell me a little bit more about that?

18:19CherylSure. There's three types of what's called catamenial seizures and they're due to the fluctuations Of the estrogen progesterone. So as a woman, and many women have found that they'll have seizures either right before their period, during, or after. There's actually three types. So you could have one of those, or you could have a combination of them. And women have also found that before they actually hit puberty, Thank you for joining us.

19:12CherylNow, as Haley's getting older, we've noted that we've had to increase some of her medications and change them a little bit with her cannabis in order to get there. And I have a feeling that as she matures, now that she's turning 23, by the time she's 30, we'll probably have to look at honing in a little bit differently. And then, again, of course, later on in life when she hits menopause.

19:37CherylIt has to... Yeah, oh, also the full moon has affected her as well, and we all know that the full moon affects people greatly. But with the hormones, what happens is the estrogen, we have to fake her body out and make it think that it's not fluctuating like a normal cycle would go for a woman. And what we do is we add in progesterone. In order to make her body, we actually have different types of progesterone.

20:07CherylMedroxy progesterone, and we use what's called Micronorm, and it is a progesterone-only birth control pill, which is actually the first one we started with, because at the time it was the most logical thing to go with. Now, between the two of them, she managed to stay out of non-convulsive status, epilepticus, Without any of progesterones to fake out her body or without the cannabis, she would go into non-convulsive status and we can't get her out.

20:40CherylSince starting cannabis, she has not gone into status throughout her catamenial time and now we've actually honed it in where she's not even having the seizures. At the worst, we'll see a little bit of behavioral activity due to subclinical seizure activity, but we're able to head that off quite quickly. Is she smoking? She is mostly oral through capsules, but she will also vaporize. And Harry Warburton just actually gave her an incredible vape pen that's got a dial on it, so I'm just trying to hone in on what the temperature is.

21:21CherylAnd so we're working on a Halley's Comet like Roizen or Shatter or some sort of a smokable one that's easier. And then what we've done is we actually, he gave us a couple of different top pieces so we can preload these just as we had done with the Iolite, well simply the Iolite vaporizer that we did back in 2009 for the schools. And you can preload it and then all the care person has to do is screw the new top on and push the button and go.

21:50CherylAnd Haley tried it and she loves it. We actually tried some bubble hash of Haley's comment in it and she absolutely loved it.

22:00CherylBut that's only if she has any aura type things or she feels off or wobbly or sore eyes, headaches, things like that.

22:13SpeakerI was also impressed. I remember you telling me some long time ago you want sort of double blind tested Hayley where she said she preferred certain things. She could smell from the terpene. She could smell what was going to be effective for her and you doubted whether she could really do it so you sort of gave her the wrong stuff to see and she knew right away.

22:34CherylOh yeah, yeah. I did that with high THC strains because at one point we were running low and I needed to check and see which one would be the best. And I actually tested Nukin, Watermelon, and the original old school hash plant. And I had a high CBD strain. It was actually a 12 to 1 that I had grown at that time. And I had her smell the CBD.

23:00CherylAnd then I went and made her go over and I got her to smell the three types of high THC strains and she picked the hash plant. And I went, okay, no problem. I'm going to make your meds for you. I made them out of, I think it was the nukin I ended up giving her. And I gave her that one. I told her it was the hash plant.

23:20CherylShe took it. Came back about an hour and a half to two hours later going, Mom, you gave me the wrong one. That's not the one I told you to give me. And she ate it like it was in a capsule. There's no possible way that she could have ever known it wasn't the strain that she wanted. And because I was like, oh yeah, maybe it's just something.

23:41CherylMaybe there's some outside things, some outside influence that I'm not noting. And that's why I did it. And it was just amazing that I knew right then and there. I'm like, no, something about the terpenes, you can actually feel it in your body, the differences. And I find that very important for people to know.

24:01CherylYeah.

24:02BubblemanAgreed. Definitely agreed on that. Those terpenes seem to be the little travelers that just... They seem to be like, hey, cannabinoids, we'll get you to your receptors faster. Come this way. We know a shortcut. I don't know what's going on, but I have full appreciation for terpene modulation. I'm coughing my brain out here.

24:26BubblemanIndeed.

24:30Etienne FontanSo when Haley needs to medicate, does she notify you or does she just self-medicate accordingly?

24:39CherylWell, she takes a staple of cannabis in capsules three times a day, every day. If she, like, if she, she'll let me know usually just because she does have different disability issues with developmental and stuff. But for her own part, with this, especially with this new vaporizer, it's so easy. She just pushes the button and can inhale it herself. But somebody else would preload it and everything.

25:11CherylAnd she has that ability to do that if she needs to be. Otherwise she typically would let me know because she would want me to know that she's not feeling well. Because that's going to be very scary. I don't have seizures, but I can imagine that if I did it would be extremely scary to be feeling off and stuff. So of course she's going to let someone know.

25:32SpeakerDoes she ever get sublingual drops, not capsules, but just drops directly into her mouth?

25:41CherylWe actually had done them years ago, but we hadn't had the Halley's Comet strain in it, and I'm very eager to start doing them because they do go much quicker into your body. So in an emergency situation, I'm not sure, like, with her, I don't necessarily know That if she felt she needed her inhaled, that she would be okay with taking a drop instead. And I honestly believe that there is definite differences between what you're getting, because sometimes she will, for her inhale, she'll be like, Mom, I want a bong, or Mom, can I have a joint, or I need my vaporizer.

26:22CherylBut it's very interesting how she's very specific about And it doesn't have to be an outside force because she can have all the options in front of her and she will pick one over the other. And I haven't figured out why that is yet, but as far as whether or not she would go and say, Mom, I need another drop, that I'm not so sure of.

26:49SpeakerI've known that CBD in the gut will be metabolized into four different cannabinoids, including not Delta 9 but Delta 8 because under acidic conditions that ring closes. But the problem is that, again, it's difficult to understand what's happening in her body because after the stomach, Where the capsule is digested and all those cannabinoids are released, then it goes into the liver where oxidation happens. And so at that point, you've taken maybe a mix of, say, just a handful of cannabinoids and now made several dozen different metabolites.

27:32SpeakerSo what her body is ending up getting is not just what you're putting in. And again, if you were to take the sublingual drops, like you said, The absorption into the body, especially in the head where the brain is, is happening in advance to any of that digestion or oxidation that happens in the metabolic processes that are normally going on in the gut.

28:00CherylYeah, it is one thing that we are looking at in the near future. I've almost honed in her perfect dosing and then we're going to look at other modes. And one of them is tincture because nobody likes to take a handful of pills. It's much easier to just do a couple of drops under your chin.

28:17BubblemanTrue that.

28:21SpeakerSo do you prep all of Haley's?

28:24Etienne FontanSorry, I was just asking if you prep all of Haley's medicine, how much of the week do you spend in preparation?

28:32CherylOh, wow. Going over that. Quite a lot. Quite a lot. Okay. In Haley's Comet doesn't give back very much in bubble hash for return and stuff. When I do bud, decarboxylated, and in capsules for her, they're in double zero caps, she takes eight to ten per dose. So it's quite a bit she's consuming. Are we there still? Are we still? Oh yeah, okay.

29:07BubblemanJust your camera's not on. We only hear you.

29:12CherylOh, okay, okay. Yeah, I don't know what's with my camera here. That's okay. When... I do do her bubble hash. I've done for her before. I have not... I've experimented with Roizen, but it is going to take me forever to... because I just with a little handheld... When to extract it, although I think it would be an excellent way of extracting. We're looking at several different methods for making different types of shatter type things and then activating it in order to get it to be right for her.

29:54CherylAnd of course I'm looking into different tinctures and such. I think it'll be a lot... Much better for her for consumption to just have a few drops, real quick, easy, fast, into your body.

30:07Etienne FontanHow long is a week on average do you think you spend in preparation?

30:25CherylIt really depends. If I have like... If, uh, over the last couple years, since I fell out of the injunction, I haven't been able to grow, so we've had to rely on, um, donations from other people that are going the Haley's Comet. And if I'm able to get a large chunk of it, like, her prescription is 40 grams per day, and there, I can see where it could almost be more than that, uh, depending on the preparation you use, because you lose a lot of, uh, you can lose some of it.

30:57CherylUm, Also, it takes about 45 minutes to prep it. It doesn't matter if I'm using one ounce or if I'm using a half pound to prep it once. Then, of course, you know, there's the grinding. And this is just simply the decarboxylating the whole butt is pretty quick to do. And then it's just a matter of capping it. I really, you know, pretty much my entire life revolves around making sure that she's got her medication.

31:36CherylWhen I was able to grow, it was much easier. It was like a few days span and all our meds are ready for a month. So, yeah, it can be time.

31:48Etienne FontanAre you allowed to get in? Because I know that you should. Growing cycle can be different and provide different aspects or is different for each. So have you noticed any...

32:10BubblemanSorry, I lost you there. Yeah, he cut out on me as well.

32:17Etienne FontanCannabis, Haley's Comet.

32:23CherylFor the growing?

32:24Etienne FontanComet.

32:28Etienne FontanYeah, you're breaking up so harsh.

32:39BubblemanIt's crazy. It reminded me of Wayne's World when they go through the drive-thru and they're like talking really bad, like breaking up their voice. The guy still gets their order right, just for those of you that don't remember.

32:58BubblemanSo hopefully ATAN comes back from being frozen in Never Never Land for that question.

33:08CherylI think he was asking something about the crop time and stuff like that and differences in the growing. I've actually now run two different... By two different growers over the years on growing Haley's Comet in the flower time. And you can actually watch which cannabinoids are coming into play, which ones are dying off. I have a lot of information that's going to be coming out pretty soon on the original Haley's Comet strain.

33:42CherylIt tends to crop best between Six and eight weeks in flower. It really does depend on your growing. I find that different ways of growing come out differently. And I actually, when I was doing it, I timed it and I watched from about week five and a half to week nine and a half approximately. And Haley's best one came out at eight weeks. It came out perfect profile with low CBN and high CBD, high THC.

34:28Etienne FontanTesting, am I back? Can you hear me now? I wanted to try that question again.

34:32CherylOkay.

34:34Etienne FontanI might have answered. My question was, because you're unable to grow it yourself and you're reliant on other cultivars to grow, cultivators to grow the cannabis, Has Haley had problems with different reactions to different crops and different crop cycles?

34:53CherylThere is definite differences and we've noted it not just in Haley but in other children over the years from outdoor to indoor to different growers. There is slight variable differences. A lot of it has to do with the cropping time, nutrients. What you'll notice more is some growers it comes out really light looking buds and other ones it's really dark and it's clearly like the different methods of growing and the nutrients they're using.

35:25CherylHaley's Comet loves dirt. That's, you know, You can grow it aeroponically. You can do it in the sea of green, but nobody likes it like that. It doesn't grow as well in those modes. The most successful we've seen time and time again is dirt. Ideally, growing in greenhouses would be phenomenal for this particular strain. There is definite differences. And we've seen it... Time and time again. Where a changeover from using a product or even the same grower batch to batch, if it's not exactly the same, is it does show a difference.

36:13CherylAnd those variables that people say are non-variables because there's a certain percentile that's considered acceptable to be, actually when you get into the larger numbers that I found with Haley, is that those numbers build up. And when you build up, it makes a difference in the final outcome. And depending on the crop, each crop can be slightly different. So those numbers, when you take it from a bud to an oil increase, and when you add up that increase, it can actually end up being quite a bit.

36:48Etienne FontanSo if you have a crop that she does not react properly to, do you talk directly to the grower, or you just have to then go on a, Search and find for the right.

37:01CherylI talk to all the growers that grow Haley's Comet. I talk to all of them. And I give them the suggestions of what other growers have found to be most beneficial. And of course, the original growers, what they have found to be most beneficial. To try and aid them in it, I am all about testing their particular way of growing. I like to test it during the flower stages to help them come up with what's going to be the best chromatography, what is in their mode of growing.

37:37CherylBecause sometimes what your week 8 is, is what somebody else's week 7 or 6 is coming out at. And if you take your one that comes out at week six, seven to a nine, your THC is going to end up higher and your CBD lower. Now, it still will fall within the one-to-one ratio. However, those numbers add up and those even in a very sensitive child will show up.

38:04CherylWe've seen it with other children. A little girl named Mila who's been using it since she was nine, her mom and I actually had deep conversations. We noticed the same differences Of seizure activity and stuff, even by that slight amount, and that's why when I say Haley's, I think Haley's actually a 1.1 to 1 CBDTHC. I mean that. There's very, very big differences in things that don't seem to look as though they're much of anything.

38:39SpeakerI think, Shell, the work you've done to work on what the tolerance levels are for Hayley has been fantastic. I'm very proud to know you and the work you've done for her and that's happening and benefiting other children is fantastic.

38:54CherylThank you, David. You're pretty awesome too.

38:56SpeakerCan I just ask one quick question of the guys? I don't want to make this Canadian-centric, but we've had a number of important court cases up here that I think I know have impacted here in Canada, particularly ones like the derivatives case, but I think they have that impact to impact our federal law and then they'll impact internationally because I think we are likely to be the first G20 nation to legalise hopefully.

39:23SpeakerBut we have a very important case that Cheryl referred to there that I also think is going to be important which is the right to grow. It's called the Allard case. It's the crown against Allard. But that's been in the hands of somebody called Justice Phelan for quite some time. Maybe Marcus would know. Maybe it's eight or nine months now. Maybe quite not that long. But I'm just wondering how long is reasonable before one of these things is actually deliberated on?

39:50SpeakerDo you know, Marcus?

39:52BubblemanWell, I mean, these cases can go a long time, I can tell you that much.

39:58BubblemanYou know, to try and guess how long it could go is, your guess is as good as mine. I mean, three plus years it can go sometimes. Like, it really depends on On whether or not they seemingly want to do it, that's what I learned from court. Everything seems to be hingent upon another case in the chain, and they're like, oh, we just have to wait for this one to come through, and it's like, wow, that could be years.

40:24BubblemanYou're going to wait years for that case to come through before you pay attention to this one that's happening right now? I would love to invite someone like Kirk to come in and talk about such things. I am definitely not the expert by any means. I do think it's an accurate statement that Canada is possibly going to be one of the first G20 countries to legalize or decriminalize, and I think it's very likely that the laws that get passed will be looked at down south when they go into federal jurisdiction.

41:01BubblemanInto federal legalization as well, because it's got to happen. I mean, you've got to think that there's no way they're just going to let it happen in America. Although they did with hemp, it almost seems as though they knew that the hemp industry would be stunted by the lack of structure, by the lack of the machines and everything. The infrastructure just didn't exist. And you need a lot of it for hemp to become this incredible 50,000 commercial products.

41:35BubblemanYeah, 50,000 commercial products when you have literally billions of dollars of infrastructure in place. Thank you for joining us.

42:05BubblemanAcres got grown every year, but by no means was it tens of thousands of hectares, which obviously if you're going to be making 50,000 commercial products, you've got to think that worldwide there's going to be some hundreds of thousands, if not millions of acres of this product grown. I think Canada capped out at around 3,000 hectares for all of Canada just for last year. So I think that it's likely that...

42:31BubblemanYou know, it's not until those guys play the game that the game seems to be able to be played on this enormous level, if that makes any sense to you.

42:43Etienne FontanWell, you have to have the industrial infrastructure. Back in the 20s and 30s, we had the industrial infrastructure. One thing I learned in my aspect in the hemp industry is we sold all that. We dismantled those mills, sold them to South America for processing and all kinds of other things. You are correct. You need an infatuation of billions of dollars of infrastructure. You need those mills central to those in location to where the hemp is actually grown.

43:10Etienne FontanAnd it's not even considered at this point. So it's not even on industrial scale, you know, what it needs to be to even produce, you know, 10 individual products, much less the 50,000. Because then you need, you know, seed separation. You'd need, you know, cellulostic plastic manufacturing. You'd need a You know, hemp paper mill, you need, you know, clothing paper mill. I mean, clothing mill and the thing with hemp, as we learned, if you put hemp through conventional machinery, it gets destroyed.

43:40Etienne FontanI mean, you destroy that machinery. You have to have high tensile strength steel that has not been seen 50 to 60 years industrially here in the United States. When I remember Bill Condie and them actually ran their hemp plywood up in Oregon, when they did that, they destroyed conventional machinery that they had to get in with arc welders and cut the hemp out of. And so that's why, you know, over in China they cottonize it and make it into small fibers so they can run through the conventional machinery, whereas in Eastern Europe we were dealing with these archaic machines that couldn't make a fiber that small but could Thank you for joining us.

44:49Etienne FontanSo, you're correct, I'm sorry. I wish we were closer to that industrialization, but you're still a step ahead of us. At least your government's allowing it to grow. At least you can sell your hemp protein, and it's on the international market that we're buying, you know. We can't even, you know, you said earlier, you're looking forward to America to finally, you know, get it through its medical thing.

45:11Etienne FontanWho the hell are you talking to? This is the United States. Our head is so far up our ass, we can't even say it's medical marijuana. At the federal level, much less them actually now come around and say they're going to actually access it and regulate it. Marcus, I love you, buddy, but I mean, I think you're a little high there in expecting the United States to get back together any time soon, and that result, I want it to.

45:34Etienne FontanHowever, as an activist for 20 plus years, I just don't see it until we see you guys actually change legalization, become that first G20. And then you're going to see Mexico do the same thing, and then you're going to force all these other countries into realizing that this has to be confronted. So I'm afraid we're still playing Sisyphus a bit in the international world and pushing that rock up that hill, but we're getting closer because you have industrial hemp.

46:08Etienne FontanOn top of that, we have industrial hemp in the United States, but we're not going to see the investment in types of mills and manufacturing That I think Canada could still push the industry and still lead the way much better in North America.

46:24BubblemanYeah, I guess my point is just that it feels like unless America gets behind it, it can never really grow to the size that it could be. You know, like we've had industrial hemp for 20 years. 20 years we've been growing hemp industrially. And it's like... In my opinion, as big as it is, it's not as big as it could be. Welcome, Mr. Cushman.

46:52MrHey, guys.

46:54BubblemanYou made it.

46:56MrYeah, on my cell phone.

46:58BubblemanWhat, you couldn't get in on your computer?

47:00MrNo, man, it's got this stupid, look here.

47:05BubblemanWow.

47:10MrDo you see the message?

47:12BubblemanYep, I've seen people have this problem before, this technical difficulty of coming in and not being able to get in. They click the link and it does this weird thing. I don't know if you have to start that browser over completely or use a different one or whatnot, but hopefully we get a good enough quality on your cell phone.

47:32MrThe bummer is that I've got to hold it up to my face.

47:35BubblemanThat's definitely a bummer.

47:39MrGive me five minutes, you guys. I've been trying for 15 minutes, but I'm going to try messing with this again. I'm going to try shutting the computer down and starting it up again.

47:48Etienne FontanKyle, try updating Google. Make sure Google Plus is updated in the most up-to-date version. That can be key as well. Got it. I'll be back in a few, guys. Thank you.

47:59BubblemanAnd does anyone else think I look like a UPS driver when the box is closed and I'm just like a small little avatar in the corner? It's the brown thing. Dude, I'm like, who the fuck is the UPS driver? I'll do for you.

48:14SpeakerYeah, a little bit. A little bit, Marcus.

48:19Etienne FontanYeah, but what can green do for you?

48:22BubblemanOh, my God. All right. Well, I think that I'm going to enjoy a little bit of phytocannabinoids here in the morning.

48:31Etienne FontanHere in the morning.

48:37Etienne FontanWhat's the temp up there in Canada way?

48:41BubblemanYou know, off the top of my head, it must be maybe between like 5 degrees and 10 degrees, I don't know, Celsius. Maybe colder, I don't really know. I haven't gone outside yet. It has been a bit of a colder winter in the past, which is hilarious because they said, oh, El Nino is going to be very warm. It's going to come through and be very, very warm and I was like, I don't know.

49:05BubblemanThat pattern happened in like 98, 99 and like records, record amounts of snow fell. Like Mount Baker broke the world record with 65 feet and Cypress and Grouse and Seymour all got completely dumped on. Whistler got almost 50 feet. I was in like 98, 99. So when they showed that same pattern for this year, I was feeling pretty, pretty good about it from the perspective of someone that loves snow sports.

49:34BubblemanSnow Sports for the win.

49:37Etienne FontanHey, Horatio, what are you smoking this morning? Good morning, by the way.

49:40SpeakerHey, welcome, Horatio. I'm afraid to smoke. My body did not agree with my 6 a.m. bedtime, and all I have is Bubba Kush right now, and everyone's like, yeah, let's warm up the wake and bake, and I'm like, oh, God, if I wake and bake to this, I'm faked. So here we go.

50:00Etienne FontanYou can do it.

50:05Etienne FontanWe believe in you.

50:09Etienne FontanWe do believe in you, Horatio.

50:11BubblemanI mean, in the least, drink a bottle of that terp champagne, that terpane, terpane. Oh, what do you got going on there? Is that the sick?

50:26BubblemanOr is that a halo?

50:29SpeakerIt's the sick.

50:31BubblemanNice. I got the sick myself today. Sicken it up. I'm not going to lie. I really miss my Sapphire dish.

50:40Etienne FontanBut I've got to order a new one.

50:44BubblemanThere we go. There we go. Yeah, I just can't get over how much I look like a UPS driver. It's actually a Jesse Royal shirt.

50:56BubblemanI feel like I should be delivering you guys packages.

50:59Etienne FontanYou're delivering hash church to us. That's good enough, buddy. Yes, delivering church to the masses.

51:06Bubbleman714 people, in fact. If four people could leave, then we'll have 710. Oh, two came in. Now we have 716. That's fine.

51:13Etienne FontanWe're good with that.

51:16CherylI actually have a question for you guys. Please. I'm looking at, of course, tinctures, as I had mentioned, that that would be our next step is to investigate more tinctures and if that would be Easier for, I know that for dosing, it is much easier to have a tincture. You can put it to whatever amount that person needs. So if they need a little extra, you can easily do that.

51:42CherylNow, when you're doing roison, as well as different shatters, I'm looking at, I want it activated. Do you think that activating it afterwards or activating it beforehand would be more, would be a better solution? Or am I just going to have to play with it and figure it out?

52:02BubblemanYou should play with it. Starting out, I would probably activate. I mean, rosin doesn't, people think, oh, I bet you it's activated because of the heat, but it's not enough time or length. And from the majority of rosin that we've seen tested, it has been mostly in acid form, the cannabinoids that are present. So it would seem to me that activating it afterwards is For rosin, obviously for bubble hash, I mean, you know, heating up the herb before you make bubble hash would be a no-no, but for rosin, who's to say?

52:37BubblemanI mean, you're going to definitely be losing terps, but I don't have a huge amount of experience with the decarboxylating, but I'm sure that you'll get in there regardless of what anyone tells you and play or find your own Find your own sweet spot.

52:59CherylI definitely will be playing with that. I just thought maybe you guys had an idea when extracting it because, yeah, the Roisin and the Shatters all come out unactivated, which is great because there's incredible medical properties in it. But for Hayley, we're really still looking at the activated cannabis. We've tried unactivated. It just didn't meet any of her needs properly. So...

53:26BubblemanTrying to come up with the best plan on that one is going to be... Is she still doing like a nice long... You told me a while back she had like a hundred and some odd days seizure free. Is that still going strong?

53:43CherylWell, like I said, since April last year... It was in October that she had four breakthrough grandmas, and we had switched the prep from the bubble hash back to the bud. And I noticed that. Now, I've been able to hone it in a bit better using the bud and the CBD. But she's not 100%, but she's not sneezing. So I'm just fine-tuning it a little more. I think we're looking at around between about 150 milligrams of THC and 1.1 of the CBD in the ratio.

54:31CherylWe had tried the 100 milligrams THC and the 110 CBD in total amount. We've tried the

54:47Cheryl204, and I forget what the decimal was after that, of CBD and 186 THC, and that one may be the winning one for at least those two cannabinoids. I don't have in front of me the numbers of what the THC V or the CBG or CBC would have been at those times, but I will have that all compiled.

55:13BubblemanHmm. It was the bubble hash that she had gone one of her longest timelines without a seizure.

55:19CherylOh yeah. Yep. And it was when I switched back to the bud that in October that we noted four breakthrough grand mal's and she has had since October one absence seizure that we could tell. Now Her seizures can also be triggered through different movies, the flashing on the screen, so movie theaters are horrific. We have to prep her beforehand with extra cannabis to get through that. Also, sleep deprivation, if she's sick, those kind of things as well.

55:58CherylThere's always triggers, but you can beat them out. I've really worked on being able to look at what the different signs and symptoms are, and I've actually been able to show doctors in VGH that there's going to be a seizure based on all the evidence you guys are giving me. I can tell you that we're going to see seizure activity and then of course she's seized. So really for parents, if you can get somebody who knows a lot about cannabis, they can utilize the parent's information on what Their child's typical seizures look like, what they look like when they're feeling really well, and through the parent and someone who's well educated with the cannabis, you can actually hone in to that individual's needs.

56:54CherylAnd it is very individual, even though there are rough estimates, we all, you know, with anything, there's a basic guideline of where you can start from. But then every person's different, so we need to hone it in a little better for each individual. And I've been working a lot on figuring out how to hone in and trying to teach others to look for these similar things to know whether or not they need some THC in their system or if they need CBD.

57:22BubblemanAnd what is an absence seizure?

57:25CherylBasically, she looks like she's staring off into space or just for a moment. And then she'll come back and she may have missed what happened for that few seconds. It kind of looks like daydreaming.

57:39BubblemanOkay, so you're not really having the shaking, but you're definitely zoned out for a little bit.

57:45CherylYeah, Haley has five different seizure types, so we kind of watch for different things. I can tell if there's more seizure activity or less seizure activity by her speech, by her eye contact. Um, even by just typical movements and parents who have children with seizures automatically know that. So when you are trying to hone in on the very best results for your child, uh, you, you have to take into account and, and really work closely with the different parents to figure that one out.

58:20Etienne FontanCheryl, I have a question. Are you documenting this in a public area so that other parents with, uh, Well, we have the Haley Rose Foundation Facebook page.

58:57CherylWhere I do put up a lot of information. I'm actually just trying to figure out how to get PDF files on there because I have about 20 chromatographies taken in this last year on everything from growing to different preparations including Horatio's awesome prep of oil for her. And I have written a few things I know that VGH has it so that doesn't help a lot of parents out there but I'm looking at trying to get more of that stuff in files that actually are more accessible for people to read because I've written things for VGH on tips and tricks for dealing with seizures in trying to figure out what you're looking for.

59:44CherylNow, of course, every individual is different, but those things can all kind of come together to help you decide. Things like... Haley, her eyes are not red when she's properly medicated. That's typical to boo that stoners all have red eyes. Well, my daughter's eyes are red. It means she needs either THC or CBD. And depending on what mood she has going on, as far as is she giggly?

1:00:16CherylIf she's giggly, then it's the CBD that she needs. If she's Really, really, almost like a wired kind of thing. And almost has, because of the seizures, will give her more of an aggressive tone. You can hear it in her voice, even in her mannerisms. I'll know that I need to increase the THC levels in order to balance that out. Because for Haley, CBD alone will cause her to seize in no time flat.

1:00:47CherylAnd we've actually documented it. And I have inches of documentation Just through the three months we did in hospital as well as when she was living in a group home type facility with different care aides and stuff. And we have all documented Just Hemp, Haley's Comet, as well as supplementing in there.

1:01:16SpeakerDid you say you're in VGH? Are you in Canada? Are you in British Columbia?

1:01:21CherylWe're in Vancouver.

1:01:25SpeakerThat's crazy. You probably haven't been able to access CBDV, I'm assuming.

1:01:31CherylCBD what?

1:01:32SpeakerCBDV, a propyl cannabinoid. It's essentially CBD with two carbons less on the chain coming off the end of the molecule, and it's shown incredibly effective in seizure conditions.

1:01:49CherylHang on one second. I'm going to check the CBD.

1:01:55SpeakerYou know, it's painful hearing these kind of discussions going on in Canada where we're supposed to have this medical marijuana system that's for the patients by the corporations and, you know, they're going to solve all the problems of the things that, you know, were faulty under the MMAR, but instead you have these children that can't get access to medicine that would help them. Have you heard those stories too?

1:02:21SpeakerLike, I get these messages from parents that are like, hi, yeah, I bought this strain from Bedrocan. It says it's got the CBD. And I'm like, I've never heard of that strain name before, so do you have any other descriptors? Because that name sounds made up to me. And then they'll show me a profile and a ratio, and I'm like, where have I seen this ratio before?

1:02:40SpeakerBedrocan varieties, they don't name them what the commercial names are. They come with their own naming system for the cultivars. And they do have one called Bedro Light, which is essentially an ACDC type variety. It's a type 3 plant, mostly CBD, almost no THC. And they also have a 1 to 1 type variety, a type 2 plant.

1:03:05SpeakerBut my point is that even with having these things from different companies, we still don't have these minor cannabinoids that are really possibly effective for For people like Hayley, I think it's a crime that these corporations or this government has forced us into this system where we can't actually get the same degree of variability of medicines that were available under the MMAR. I think there's one of the LPs in Canada that's stepping up there, Whistler Medical Marijuana, and they seem to be including a lot more information now about The minor cannabinoids and terpene profiles that they're getting from the lab report.

1:03:50SpeakerSo they're certainly realizing there's some benefit there. That's lovely that there's information there, but where are the varieties? Do they have a medicine that produces CBD and CBDV in roughly equal proportions? That's the question.

1:04:05CherylOkay, I found some tests here. Haley consumes, from her Haley's comment, she consumes THC, THCV, CBD, CBN, CBC, and CBG. Not always CBN, but all the other ones are always there. She also... Hold on a second here.

1:04:28SpeakerWhat are the amounts of those chemicals?

1:04:32CherylActually, I will be getting back to you guys probably next week. I'll have calculated out exactly how much... In the next two weeks, I'll be getting tests back, so I will be able to verify. They're smaller dosings. However, they are like on the chromatographies. They are in the bud. They are visible. And as I use concentrations for her, usually everybody talks about CBD and THC, but without those other cannabinoids are hugely important in her medical regime.

1:05:04CherylAnd I actually noticed differences When one strain did not have the concentrations of those other cannabinoids. So now I'm getting into let's really find out what numbers those are on those cannabinoids.

1:05:21SpeakerThis is tough when you're talking about case studies. This is one of the big problems even in the medical journals is that they won't publish what you're talking about as a case study. You have a little bit of information and probable statistics to say that That, you know, this little bit of a compound is responsible for the fact that she didn't have any seizures. And this is why we need, you know, double-blind controlled studies.

1:05:49CherylHer, um, the hemp CBD we're using has a very small, minute amount of THC, large amount of CBD. It has some CBN and it has CBG in it as well.

1:06:04SpeakerOkay. Have you...

1:06:08SpeakerMay I ask what her diagnosis is?

1:06:10CherylLennox-Gastaut syndrome. It's considered a cousin syndrome of Dravet syndrome.

1:06:16SpeakerOkay. So some of the preliminary work that they've done with Epidiolex, which is a pharmaceutical CBD extract, has shown that the children that have these conditions seem to break apart into two groups, responders and non-responders. Okay. And Kevin McKernan again from Medicinal Genomics or Cortagen as their parent company. And the Cortagen parent company does DNA analysis on people. And one thing that they started getting into is sequencing the cannabinoid receptors and the cannabinoid family genes in humans and looking for variations that might, variations in the endocannabinoid system that might be responsible for some of these Some of these things.

1:07:06SpeakerSo I encourage you to get in contact with Kevin McKernan at Medicinal Genomics.

1:07:12CherylOkay.

1:07:16BubblemanMight be able to somehow help facilitate that. I remember Alex saying that from SE Labs saying he wanted to invite Kevin into church one day to talk. These names keep coming up. I know they're going to end up in here one of these days.

1:07:30SpeakerThe other thing that I... Recommend that you do it. It might seem like a bit of a waste of time, but contact the, I don't know if you're part of the MMAR, part of the MMPR, but either way, I implore you to contact all these companies and ask them when you might see some CBDV medicine from any of their companies. You know, and maybe even a letter to Health Canada saying, hey, You guys have created the system that you said was going to provide all this variation in medicine for us because it was going to be legitimate.

1:08:09SpeakerAnd then what they did is they choked off the genetic flow into the NMPR. And we're left with everybody growing purple kush or bubble kush or whatever the hell that they're growing. And it's insane. It's absolutely insane because this is not someone trying to get high. We're talking about the quality of life of a child. And it's criminal. It's criminal that they've forced us into this system where you can't even get the other types of, you know, even the fact that you're making your own drugs.

1:08:39SpeakerI'm visiting down here in California right now, and I'm not trying to push a company. I'm not involved with these guys at all. But here's, for example, a company called Care by Design that obviously do CBD products. But this one here is an 18 to 1 CBD to THC sublingual spray done in coconut oil. And, you know, the analysis, all the chemical analysis of exactly what's in it is right on the bottom, right on the box.

1:09:07SpeakerAnd it shouldn't up to be, you know, you need to be taking care of your child. You don't need to be making their medicine.

1:09:15SpeakerIt's a pretty fucked up situation when you think of it, isn't it? It's criminal. It's nothing short of criminal.

1:09:23CherylI want to actually address what these, the MMP arc are currently have. I was looking on some of the websites because I always do and there's no way in hell I could ever afford it. My best bet for being able to afford Haley's medication and her strains and being able to hone in on exactly what she needs is for me to grow it myself. There's no other logical way to do it.

1:09:50CherylI am very grateful for The incredible cultivators we get to work with. But you get more consistency if you're able to have it always from the same producer, right? Whether it's yourself or somebody else.

1:10:07CherylOne thing I wanted to comment about when I looked on the site and I look at these different ratios and they'll have how many milligrams and they'll have less than. Well, less than 1% is great to know that it's less than 1%. Like, it'll have 9% CBD and less than 1%. Well, that less than 1% adds up. That less than 1% could be .25. That less than 1% could be .1.

1:10:40CherylYou know, it goes on and on. And the problem I see...

1:10:45SpeakerIt could be zero, so...

1:10:47CherylYeah, exactly. Now, when I add up those less-thans, when I test and I look at these ones that don't show much of a variable in the bud, when I make a contract, those variables become actual things that you have to pay attention to. And by it saying less than 1%, what if their next batch, there's a variance in that? It doesn't tell me the exact amounts. I can't properly...

1:11:15CherylDo I need to add a little more CBD because it's not enough or is the CBD I'm adding, is the less than 1% going to add up to be too much THC with CBD? I need to know these things when I'm doing it and I'm not finding that information out there from the MMPR at this time. I don't see it and therefore I can't utilize it because it's Thank you for watching.

1:11:48SpeakerWell, technically there's no good information for this and I personally get annoyed with people that try to pretend like they are going to diagnose a condition and tell you how many milligrams of THC you're going to need because they're really pulling, you know, straws out of their ass. They don't know that the person, the metabolism, the weight, all these things matter. I mean, and then you're never going to get really consistent cannabis and that's another issue.

1:12:12SpeakerI mean, so There's so much guesswork going on right now, and we're seeing all of this not so anecdotal evidence that it really helps us all, and I really hope there's more of a collective voice demanding instead of asking for their right to use and test this, because we're not going to know until we have more human subjects tested with known varieties of cannabis that we can really start getting to places where we can say exactly what we need for what.

1:12:38SpeakerYeah, and that's not, unfortunately, one person making... Thank you for joining us today.

1:12:58SpeakerWe're just not there yet. What you're doing with your child is what needs to be done. In 1979 when I was nine and my mom was giving me cannabis, she could only give me whatever cannabis she could get her hands on. Now at least we have a lot more information in our favor where she can at least see if she's getting bunk weed or something that reportedly tested higher in THC or CBD or what have you.

1:13:24SpeakerThe three carbon chain Thank you for joining us.

1:13:40SpeakerBelieve it or not. And, you know, we used Colton Turner's report of the different, you know, cultivars of cannabis and which ones had and which ones had not THCV, so the test was completely flawed. But it also showed how inconsistent cannabis is with her own recipe. Right. Because the thing is, She doesn't put sugar in all her brownies, I would put it that way. Yeah. If you have the building blocks and you're a commercial company providing medicine, though, There is no reason why you can't have CBDV medicine on the market.

1:14:12SpeakerAnd when they restrict patients' personal choice and ability to produce their own medicine and say, no, you can't do that because we're going to, you know, whether it's you can't do that because you're not doing it safely or you're going to burn down your neighbor's house or your neighbor's going to get shot in a break and enter or you're black marketing all the weed that you're producing, Until the commercial producer can come in and fill the void with the set of medicines that are available on the market, I have a real hard time with that.

1:14:43SpeakerI don't think it's ethical. Well, the reality, bro, this is why I've gone to prison over and over. I've never thought it was fucking right, and that's why I was more than willing to put myself at risk and live comfortably healing myself and not getting the word out. When I was only like 11, I was going through methotrexate, which was a chemotherapy at the time, and they wanted me to go talk to a kid that was not using weed and not having as good an effect.

1:15:08SpeakerAnd when we walked over towards there, all I asked the doctor, because he said, don't talk to him about, you know, the pot use with your mom, and I was like, And, you know, his angle was not to take this information away. It was because the kid's mom was square and it could get me fucked by the state. So he said, don't tell. So I just looked up at the doctor and said, you want me to lie to him?

1:15:30SpeakerAnd he just stopped, turned me around, walked me back, said this isn't going to work. But the reality was he did want me to lie. That's really what he wanted me to do, you know. And this is what we're all faced with, and it stung me so bad, because all I saw was the kid in the little playroom waiting with his mom for what was me and my doctor to go talk to him, and it didn't happen.

1:15:52SpeakerAnd that's kind of one of the things that motivated me this whole time, because when you feel the injustice, it feels fucked up. And it motivates us all, I think, to get off our ass and fight, at least from my perspective. Camera, do you have any names of the cultivars? Because I've been asking for the CBDV and I've only ever heard of labs saying, we occasionally see it in the California region, but they never name a cultivar or any data that I can start to sniff and chase.

1:16:22SpeakerWe're not there yet and cultivar names don't really, at this point in time, they're fancy names for fashion. It's not about chemicals.

1:16:53SpeakerI've actually bred a CBD variety, but I bred it from a variety that had THCV. And so when you take a THCV variety and you cross it to a CBD plant, preferably a type 3 plant like ACDC, you get some of the progeny have, well, what happens is when you cross a pure THC plant to a pure CBD plant, you get plants that are roughly half and half.

1:17:17SpeakerBut if you have a plant that is producing THCV and THC and you cross it to a CBD type 3 plant, you then get a plant that has now THC, THCV, CBD, and CBDV. So it's a bit of a chemical mess. So it actually takes further crossing selections to isolate the plants that only produce CBDV and CBD, or hopefully CBDV on its own.

1:17:48SpeakerCan I add, dare I say that more is not better either. We're figuring out the nuances and how these cannabinoids and terpenes work together.

1:17:58SpeakerIt's interesting because I'm sitting here photographing THCA, crystalline from Cali Labs, and it's interesting that When you take it away, I mean, Marinol didn't do so well, and we were talking about it last night. It wasn't really THC that failed with Marinol. It was 11-hydroxy metabolite, because everyone that took Marinol had to swallow it, which converted it into a drug that really not a lot of people are that familiar with.

1:18:25SpeakerMore and more now, because we're getting more edibles on the line, but Marinol kind of was not what they sold us, technically. You know, and we're really just learning so much right now. It's really not even funny how ignorant we are about such a common herb.

1:18:43CherylI have a question about the breeding that you just mentioned. Now, my Haley's Comet has THC, THCV, CBD, CBC...

1:18:54SpeakerI got to cut you off right there. Without knowing the numbers on those, like... You can't say that it's got this in it because it might be there in such a small amount that it's just an artifact. It doesn't really exist. Because the machines that they use to analyze are either using HPLC or UPLC or gas chromatography. They're very sensitive machines, but they all have what's called an LOQ or a limit of quantification.

1:19:25SpeakerSo below a certain point, you can say, oh look, we noticed that there's a little blip of this molecule there, but without being able to quantify it, it's really difficult then to go on and say, this is a 10% plant with what I can see on the GC trace is a little blip. It might be so insignificant that it's not really even doing anything.

1:19:45CherylWell, okay, I have a test result in front of me done by an HPLC on a...

1:19:53SpeakerDoes it have the number of milligrams for each component?

1:19:56CherylIt has the percentile. Okay.

1:19:59SpeakerIf you can give me the percentile of what they are, I'll write them down.

1:20:02CherylSure. Now, this was a hash that was done with an RSO type oil and then the key from the Haley's, original Haley's. Now, this came out at THC .44%, THCA .64%, THCV

1:20:23CherylCBD was 0.19%. CBD, 0.99%. One second. 0.19% for KCB.

1:20:29SpeakerAgain, CBDB or CBD now? CBD was 0.99%. CBD-A, 1.26%. CBN, 1.40%. CBC, 0.11%. And CBG, 0.10%.

1:20:51CherylThat's all super, super low.

1:21:20CherylHaley would need, well, she needs at least 100 milligrams of the THC and at least 110 of the CBD, very bare minimums per dose. So those numbers done up to equal those amounts with those two as your base numbers, I'm looking at, okay, well, where does that leave my THCV and my CBC and my CBG?

1:21:50SpeakerHow are you administering now this oil or you're just administering under the tongue?

1:21:54CherylThis was a sample I was given of a hash that was made, Haley's Comet was made into an RSO and then they used Keith to make this little black hash. So we had just run a test on it and when I compare it to...

1:22:11SpeakerI'm amazed that it's an RSO and it's 4% total cannabs or 5% total cannabs. I mean that's really, really low.

1:22:18CherylWell, they mixed it with a lot of keef because they turned it into a hash. So just the RSO as the base to mix in the keef to try to come up with a little black hash.

1:22:27SpeakerOkay, so there's a couple of things that you can look at when you're looking at the numbers. That's what a chemist like me would call an adulteration. You're taking something and you're adding it to it that's called adulteration. You're adulterating the medicine. I don't know why they're doing that. I'm a chemist. I wouldn't do that.

1:22:45CherylHayley has not taken this one. It was a test, and I found it very interesting because it showed me more concentration of certain cannabinoids. I'm going to read you... Where is it?

1:23:00SpeakerCan I just say one thing? When you look at these numbers, you can make a little bit of sense out of them, okay? I don't know if you know what these numbers mean. So CBN, for example, is the degradation product of THC.

1:23:12CherylYeah, I have a feeling that the... Thank you so much for joining us.

1:23:33SpeakerIt will start oxidizing to CBN. You can't help it from happening. It's happening. It happens just at room temperature, but it's accelerated as soon as you heat it up in the presence of air. It has to be in the presence of air because it's an oxidation process.

1:23:51CherylOkay.

1:23:51SpeakerI'm just pulling up... What I'm trying to get you to look at is essentially the ratio of the different compounds in regards to each other. Knowing that CBN is your degradation product, whether it's through storage or processing is kind of irrelevant. What we're talking about is what's in the medicine in front of her, right? So if you look at the numbers, you essentially take all these numbers together and you add them up and you get what's the total of your cannabinoid fraction, okay?

1:24:18SpeakerAnd then what you can start doing is looking at the ratios between these compounds. So the highest appearing compound in your list is CBN.

1:24:29CherylJust in that particular sample, in the... I'll read you... Hold on here one second. In typical Haley's bud, when it's cropped, it comes out with... One second here.

1:24:45SpeakerI'm just going to open a spreadsheet so I can actually take these numbers down and then... Sure, sure.

1:24:52CherylThe Haley's comet had come out with... The bud came out with THC 0.23%. THC, because this is on activate, I haven't activated it yet. The THC was 4.3, or 4.35%.

1:25:10SpeakerSorry, can I ask you to start those over again? So you're going to give me THC on its own first, and you said it was 0.

1:25:22CherylOkay, hang on one second, I'm just looking for, maybe I have a better... Okay.

1:25:34CherylThe... Sorry about that. It's alright. Oh, sorry.

1:25:50SpeakerGod bless you.

1:25:53CherylGoodness. Okay, THC was .23%.

1:25:59CherylTHCA was 4.35%. The THCV was .08%. The .08 THCV in the bud.

1:26:30CherylThe... Sorry about this.

1:26:32SpeakerCBD acid? CBD...CBDA?

1:26:36CherylThe CBD... The CBD itself was .03. CBDAA was 5.28. Uh, CBC... There was no CBN. CBC came out to .15%. And... Pardon?

1:26:54SpeakerWhich chemical was that one?

1:27:00CherylCBC.

1:27:01SpeakerCBC, okay.

1:27:04CherylAnd it was .05? .15. And CBG came out at .10%. And that was in the bud. And Haley needs to take, what's it, at least 5 grams? Well, whatever comes out to 10 capsules, so roughly 4 to 5 grams.

1:27:33SpeakerSo Mark was right in that the process, if that oil did come from this flower, he's right that the process that they're doing is probably converting a lot of their THC over into CBN.

1:27:45CherylOkay, it was just a sample of something done and I noticed the other things in it and that's why it caught my attention. So I started going back throughout, I mean I've got seven years of stuff to look for and way back when we weren't even looking at the THCV or the CBC or the CVG. So there's a lot of stuff where we're going to be testing over the next few weeks here on the concentrations.

1:28:11CherylWe're working on farm products. Far more concentrated than even bubble hash right now. And then I'll have comparable, something to compare. It'll be unactivated and we'll see where that lies.

1:28:24SpeakerOkay, I have two questions. How much does she weigh? And is she a daily cannabis user? Like, does she daily smoke?

1:28:32CherylOh, she has to.

1:28:33SpeakerYeah, yeah, has to. So this is on top of getting her medication? She uses cannabis regularly?

1:28:39CherylYes, yes, she has to three times a day without fail. She can also inhale as much as needed. She only likes inhaling if she feels a little off, which would be during high seizure catamenial time or flashing lights, regular seizure triggers. Then she would inhale. Otherwise, she doesn't want to. She's just over 100 pounds now. She's very, very thin. But, yeah, she's around 100, maybe just over 100 pounds.

1:29:12CherylShe does take large amounts. Now, I also add in a CBD hemp as well. And in one second here, I'm going to bring up those test results and tell you what I'm adding into her regular regime of her Haley's Comet test.

1:29:37SpeakerDoes she have a regular diet of protein and fat? I mean, does she eat a balanced diet too as well?

1:29:44CherylFairly. She's had a lot of issues with Dilantin over the year, and I've hated that drug. And we're actually, her gums have gotten so bad that we, her, it looks like we're going to have to take her off the Dilantin. So it's kind of working out perfect timing that we've almost got her completely seizure-free. 100% seizure free and then we're going to start looking at pulling out that Dilantin because we're going to have to, we may have to fine tune on the way of getting rid of the drugs now.

1:30:15CherylSo that's going to be one of our next steps. That's why I'm busily working right now on comparing first generation Haley's Comet to second generation Haley's Comet. As well as in the concentrations and honing in on her perfect dosing. Now, the, the, oh, wait, is that my activated one? I'm just, I'm just looking up for my report right here that I've got here somewhere here. If you give me a second here, I'll pull up the lab report on the CBD I have that's activated that I'm giving her.

1:30:55CherylJust hang on one sec.

1:30:58BubblemanI want to welcome Kyle Cushman to the room. He finally got his camera working. What's up, buddy? You're on mute.

1:31:09BubblemanYou are on. Oh, now his mic's not going to work? Really? Come on. Come on.

1:31:18BubblemanJeez. You might have to come back one more time. This microphone thing has been known to happen before. I suggest just closing the whole thing out. Leaving and making sure that whole, like, it all gets closed, like force closed. And then come back and I bet you your mic works. Bongroo. Hey, wait. Oh, no, that was Mark.

1:31:42SpeakerThat was me. I was like, oh, wait. We could also try some ventriloquism, perhaps.

1:31:48BubblemanMaybe I should deliver some packages. How are you doing, Chimera? Welcome, by the way.

1:31:52SpeakerThank you. Nice to see you all.

1:31:56BubblemanAbsolutely. We're having a little bit of technical difficulties today. What do you think of those technical difficulties there?

1:32:01SpeakerI like his suggestion though, man. We could just let Kyle talk and then we could all fill in the words. That shit could get hilarious. Talking about vegan food on its way to pick up Mickey D's. It would be great. Getting back to that roast. Good times, man. We need to learn so much more about the cannabinoids. It was funny because 20 years ago when I came back after medical cannabis passed, I wanted my own in-house testing just so I could see what the plants were because all the names were so meaningless to me.

1:32:35SpeakerIt was like, let's see what the chemical signatures are at least just so we can know and then figure out how long they take to flower and start mapping them all out from there. You know, I hope more of that is what's happening now as more and more people are getting the information, sharing the information, you know, and we're figuring out what it is we're growing and how similar it all is.

1:32:58SpeakerIt's weird. You can't really actually know anything without a GC or an HPLC. As much as we're talking about, you know, is it Charlene? Haley's mom? Oh, Cheryl. Sorry, Cheryl. You know, As much as we're talking about, oh, it's got 0.13 of this, these are really small amounts of these chemicals. And even on that analysis, you completely haven't looked at any of the terpenes.

1:33:26CherylNo, no, I don't even have the terpene analysis yet. Those are our next things to do.

1:33:32SpeakerAnd this is my point, is even if you get into this, into testing, it becomes a really expensive game to play. Because every sample is costing you, I don't know what you're paying at your lab, but You know, with terps, in California, it's about $100 a test for cannabs and terps.

1:33:50Etienne FontanNot to mention that you're giving up as well to test on top of that. So, I mean, you're costing yourself double. Because it's on top of that medicine that you need for your child, and then you have to have a quantitative representative sample then to actually test. So it's nothing but a loss. I know. I've been testing for nearly 10 years.

1:34:10SpeakerWell, and then, you know, if you're a mom and you're trying to figure out some medicine for your daughter that's in pain or is ill... And you want to chase down one of these more rare cannabinoids and start to do some breeding. You grow it 100 plants. Well, shit, that's $10,000 you just spent on top of testing, plus the medicine, plus, plus, plus. And it just reinforces this whole thing that it's unfortunately not the way to do this with each family chasing answers.

1:34:41SpeakerEspecially in markets like Canada where we have a regulated system where these companies should be doing this shit. Oh yeah, I wish they would, but they aren't doing it, so... No, and a lot of things they have their hands tied because of Health Canada's various regulations. I mean, we see right now, currently going on, the Supreme Court has ordered the government to allow LPs to start producing oils.

1:35:06SpeakerSo all these LPs are producing oils, and a couple of them are allowed to sell it. Still half of them have these oils that are made, and they're not allowed to sell it yet. It's just like... The regulations are slowing us down to the point that it's ridiculous.

1:35:23Etienne FontanWell, I want to thank people like Cheryl who are taking that risk and realizing that they have to learn science, biology, your child's hormones, and all these things. Good.

1:35:38Etienne FontanIt's as frustrating and as sad as it is, at least there's people like you, Cheryl, out there that are doing it and making it happen and are leading by example. And I agree with you wholeheartedly, Camara, that it is beyond frustrating and it is beyond criminal. But in the absence of that reality that we have currently, it's heroes like you and it's heroes like Cheryl that You know, are helping lead the way and are showing and making people aware of the cost, the realities that it takes to get to where we are.

1:36:10Etienne FontanBecause that's where we are and we have such a ways to go. And you're leading the way there in Canada. So that's what's scary for us here in America. That you have the system and you're still fighting it and you have to do it out of pocket. We're doing that still here in the United States and without any of those realities to back us up.

1:36:30CherylI... For me, I can't imagine doing anything other than that. I've seen the difference it's made, and the more we hone in and the more we learn about it, she's growing leaps and bounds in development. It's just amazing. We filmed a video of Haley on December 12th speaking, and Dr. Warby got to watch it about a week or so ago, And it brought him to tears. He couldn't believe that this is the same person he met eight years prior.

1:37:04CherylIt's that big of a difference.

1:37:06SpeakerIs Hornby doing the analytics?

1:37:09CherylYeah, he does through different labs, yes. I have the activated CBD that she's taking as a top-up right now to her Haley's Comet, but The activated material percentage per gram is 0.13% THC. There's no THCA. There is no THCV. There is 6.9% CBD, so 69 milligrams. 6.9, yeah, 91%. CBD-A is 0.39%.

1:37:56CherylNo CBN. CBC is .14% and there's no CBG in this particular hemp that we're using.

1:38:04SpeakerSo when you add up all those percentages, what's the total percent of cannabinoids in that oil right there?

1:38:12CherylWell, this here is actually CBD trichomes and I give her two capsules per dose of this, of the one that I just read you off.

1:38:22SpeakerRight, so I'm trying to determine what the percentage of non-cannabinoids is in that concentrate.

1:38:32SpeakerI mean, it sounds like it's only like about less than 30% of the material itself is cannabinoids. Is that right? I just added up those numbers off the top of my head. Mark, I don't see that on everything. Like a lot of syringes, I'll look at it and it'll say 200 milligrams of cannabinoids one way or the other and then the rest is a mystery. So the measurements are only accounting for about 30% of what the mixture is, right?

1:39:05CherylThey're not testing all the, they only test how many cannabinoids, right? Like I've got eight tested here, but there's how many more cannabinoids that we're not looking at.

1:39:16SpeakerRight, but the point is that when they're giving you a percentage, that percentage is a weight percentage. So like if it were 10%, that means if you had 100 grams, it would be 10 grams of whatever that material is. And so if they're telling you what the percentage of the material is, All those percentages are going to add up to this is how much we can account for.

1:39:39SpeakerI'm trying to understand what the fraction that you can't account for is. The non-cannabinoid material, what's not analyzing for cannabinoids? What's that percentage? I'm not sure on here. Well, that goes up and down by preparation. If you ate pure trichomes, it would be the percentage in the trichomes. If you melted those trichomes, it goes up and down. Add all of those numbers up and take one and subtract those numbers.

1:40:11SpeakerWhat's that number? Yeah, I kind of briefly did it. I thought it was less than one. So what is that? I missed the last number that she said, but it looked to me that the major cannabs were coming in under less than 7%. THC was .13, CBD was 6.91, CBD acid was .39, and then I missed the last one. The last one was CVC .41.

1:40:38SpeakerDoesn't that seem really low compared to the types of cannabinoid levels that we're seeing in extracts like what Horatio and others have making? This just seems very low to me, but I don't know if I'm adding up the numbers correctly. No, you are. It's like 8%. It's roughly 8%.

1:40:56CherylYeah, the maximum THC in this product, between the THC and THCA, is .13, and the CBD is 7.3% maximum CBD. But it doesn't write in how much is the maximum, I mean the maximum CBC would be .14, so they're very small amounts.

1:41:21SpeakerIn the average... Even these numbers are suspect because you don't have a proper lab. We can't see the proper lab format. Often when they say the maximum THC, they're giving you the theoretical maximum based on if you were to take the THC acid and theoretically convert it over to THC. It's not even a real number. Right. It's plus or minus maybe 2%, which I call ballpark. These might even be worse than ballpark.

1:41:48SpeakerThey're what I call exit that the ballpark is at. So it's not even... It's like plus or minus 10%. So if you look at one of these numbers and it says 7%, well, it could be 0, but it could be 17. I mean, that's a pretty wide distribution. That's what I was saying earlier when we were talking about, oh, well, there's 0.1% THC or THC-B, and I've noticed that that seems to be the difference.

1:42:17SpeakerIt's like... You're beyond the limit of detection and you're beyond where the peak height and the amount of material correlating to that peak height is a linear relationship. It's no longer linear at very high concentration or at very low concentration. Any analytical chemist knows this. And so the linearity of that response is going to be determined How accurate these results are. There's a variability in the lab.

1:42:47SpeakerThere's a variability in the dicing. There's a variability. Right. And as we see, too, I mean, just variability in how the material is processed because you start to see oxidation as soon as you get harvesting of the plant. And I'm convinced, Chimera, I don't know if you saw the paper last year by Al Soli, but He reported what were supposedly new cannabinoids, and what they were were hydroxylated derivatives all on the cyclohexene ring, which if you do a thermal elimination of water, you start to make the diene, which is then a downhill step to aromatize and make the CBN ring at that north ring of the system.

1:43:31SpeakerSo to me, it's like microbial contamination Thank you so much for joining us.

1:44:05SpeakerIn the context of people taking these medicines, we have to be very careful about, because, you know, for example, in this case we're talking with Cheryl's medicine. She's getting this medicine and it has these numbers on it, but, you know, when, I know she's not cooking it, but other people do, and when even just that process changes all the numbers... And that's why, you know, one thing that's really great about the Colorado market and some of these companies in California is they put the exact number of what's in the medicine, you know, right on the label in its final form.

1:44:45CherylActually, I have been, it's only recently that it's switching, that I'm having other people Starting to prep because I would like concentrations done that I just don't feel I can do at home. And I wanted to make sure that I was getting them consistently prepared how I wanted to see it come out for Haley. I do get testing done Before products and after products. I wish there was a way I could show you these.

1:45:15CherylThey're all in PDF files. As soon as I figure out how to get the PDFs to load onto Facebook, I will be putting out about close to 18 to 20 different chromatographies that we've done over this last year that will show Throughout different breeders which show what they're coming up with and how even growing can make a difference, as well as different preparations, as well as if the plant is harvested late.

1:45:49SpeakerThere's so much that can impact the chemotype. One of my clients in California just We harvested a batch of something that we were growing from clone and it had been grown in the summer and then grown over this kind of wintery period and it was down in cannabinoids by almost 60%. So there's these huge effects that where even how close to the light your plant is, there's a huge effect on the overall chemotype at the end of the cycle.

1:46:17SpeakerYeah, definitely. So, you know, it's... It's not easy dosing as a parent. I really empathize with you. It's not easy. It's actually really, really difficult.

1:46:36CherylTo keep it always stable with different growers and stuff, it is very difficult.

1:46:42SpeakerIt's impossible. With different growers, you can't even do it. Even with one grow room or one cultivation site that is standardized, we've seen huge variations from crop to crop, not only in terps but also in cannabs. You don't really change the content. You don't change what type of chemicals are there, but you definitely change the amounts that are there.

1:47:03CherylOh, definitely. Definitely.

1:47:05SpeakerKeep doing what you're doing, Cheryl. You're doing a good thing. I hope the government steps in and gives you some

1:47:12CherylWell, if they ever want to fund the Haley Rose Foundation for further research, we'd love to put together a team of experts to do more research on this for sure. Next is we start looking at the high concentrations of the original Haley's and the second generation Haley's for any other differences between the two and we'll be investigating the terpenes from both those strains. And we also want to look at the original hash plants terpenes because Haley has indicated and proven that it makes a huge difference.

1:47:54CherylAnd there's something in that strain in the terpenes that she's able to pick out that she prefers. So I'd like to see what differences or similarities there are throughout those different strains.

1:48:06SpeakerThat could also be that she's smelling the terpene, but the terpene is associated with a different cannabinoid profile, and it's the cannabinoid profile that's having the effect. It could as easily be the terpene, but I'm just saying, don't tie a... Oh, no. Have you looked into type 3 plants, pure CBD plants?

1:48:26CherylWell, we have this hemp CBD is what I've got right now.

1:48:34SpeakerOne thing that you can do, I take it Haley is common as a clone.

1:48:39CherylYes.

1:48:40SpeakerOne thing that you can do is you can take this clone and take two copies of it and spray one copy with a chemical called silver thiosulfate or STS and induce it to flower about two weeks before the other clone. The one that you sprayed you induced to flowering and what happens it will produce male flowers. And if you then take the pollen from that male plant and you fertilize the female plant, the next generation of your plants are going to have 25% that are actually pure CBD type.

1:49:12SpeakerSo it'll have come completely from the genetics of the Haley's Comet, but you'll essentially have wiped out the vast majority of THC in the flower.

1:49:21CherylHuh, okay. I know that

1:49:24SpeakerThat's probably better than hemp because it'll have a very similar terpene profile to the mother plant, if not the same, but it'll also produce a hell of a lot more cannabinoids than hemp would.

1:49:37CherylOh, I like that. I know that when they did the Halley's Comet 7, is what it's called, that was the phenotype that they kept from it, that actually when they bred the Halley's Comet to secure the strain and get down to the higher Strength in it, as far as the genetic, securing the genetic, the 7 has actually, the outdoor 7 this year has come out with higher CBD and higher THC than the Haley's Comet.

1:50:13CherylHowever, it doesn't show in the bud, in the test that we're, this is all done on tests on bud, it doesn't show any THCV CBC or CBG. So there is a slight difference in the two. So that's why I'm investigating the two. Now Haley has used seven as well. We noticed a slight bit of difference, but we're really going to get into honing in on what are the differences, what are the similarities, and where we can go with that.

1:50:44CherylBut I'm definitely going to check out this. STS is what you said?

1:50:48SpeakerYeah, it's called silver thiosulfate. It's usually made from a two-part chemical mix of silver nitrate and sodium thiosulfate.

1:51:01SpeakerKyle, you're in California deeply, deeply. Have you seen a lot of that technique in the breeding of the CBD strains that are pushed out of that region heavily?

1:51:15SpeakerWho is that for? Kyle.

1:51:18MrOh, I'm sorry. I'm actually here. Hey, everybody. Say that again?

1:51:23SpeakerChimera was talking about techniques to breed up or focus different cannabinoids by basically, I don't want to say it wrong, using the silver nitrate two weeks in advance on an isolated female and then breeding it back to the female. Is that correct? It's actually female breeding. I know it's just matings.

1:51:45MrYeah, I'd rather you answer that. I get the whole idea of forced flowering and stuff, but I'm not extremely proficient at it.

1:51:56SpeakerWell, he was asking, he was talking about in order to try to breed up CBD. That's the discussion of, seems to be of the day. In California, I see a lot of breeders turn to breeding CBD as a way to try to hit the gold mine, per se. Do you see any kind of specific techniques that you've heard guys using to try to drive cannabinoid breeding?

1:52:19MrI don't. The only thing that stuck out in my head in that was gold mine, and everybody... Too many people that I meet are doing it for the money. I want to praise you Cheryl for being such a pioneer and laying the groundwork for what's to come hopefully. I've been trying to get in. I had a lot of technical difficulties.

1:52:52MrNow I had a brain fart, too, because I just smoked a big bowl.

1:52:55BubblemanWell, that's good.

1:52:56MrWell, that helps. What's up, Marcus, me brother?

1:53:05BubblemanYou know what? There was another question that Skunkman Sam was asking multiple times in the chat to you, Mr. Cushman, and he wanted to know what cannabis herbal variety is his favorite and what dry sift? That was from Spotify in Amsterdam.

1:53:24MrSpecifically, what are my favorites?

1:53:27BubblemanYeah, he wants to know what your favorite cannabis herbal variety is and, you know, your favorite one for making dry sift because maybe your favorite one might be for smoking joints but you have a different one for dry sift. I don't know. It could be the same.

1:53:40MrWell, I think truthfully I'm not going to surprise anybody by saying that my favorite flower is strawberry cough. I've been smoking it for, I've been doing this for 15 years, almost as long as I've been smoking this bowl here. I actually bought this my first trip to Amsterdam.

1:54:02BubblemanSomeone mentioned that bowl when you came in. They were like, damn, you don't see a lot of people pulling out old school hammers anymore.

1:54:08MrYeah, it stays on my nightstand. It's my go-to. It's not a good party bowl, but it's my personal.

1:54:16MrSo yeah, Strawberry Cough is my favorite daytime smoke of all. For dry sift, it's definitely the Grape Ape. The Grape Ape makes such amazing bubble hash. Have you ever had the chance to work with it? The Grape Ape? It's a Mendocino County variety. I've smoked it, but I have not worked with it. Yeah, it always made the greatest, I used to just keep the trim in the freezer, and Anytime I wanted, I would just pull it out and make a little sieve, and it would be fresh, and it would be full melty melty all the time, right out of the freezer, so that was my favorite for sure.

1:54:59MrNice.

1:55:01BubblemanThere it is, Skunk Man Sam, you got your answer.

1:55:06MrYou know, it's really, really nice to be here, you guys. Listening to... The last hour of you guys talk about dosing children. It's such a substantial conversation and now I'm coming in and we're lightening things up a little bit, but I just really want to put my appreciation out there to you guys for putting down such sincere science where the money isn't the motivating factor. And it's more about love and compassion and healing and wellness and finding out the truth about what this plant truly can do.

1:55:51BubblemanI guess it's one of the reasons why we really have to almost the way we do with organic farming or something along those lines where if you're going to claim that you have this ability to do these tests and We really want to make sure, and maybe this is already in effect, Chimera or Mark could potentially answer this. How do we know that these labs are giving us accurate results?

1:56:15BubblemanHow can we trust the lab results? What's something to look for?

1:56:22MrYou know what? I want to chime in really quick because I had a thought earlier listening, and that is that it's really important to find partners, business partners, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:57:04MrRight? You've got to find partners, you know, with influence that have a tie to the community in some other fashion than monetary. Do you not agree?

1:57:18Etienne FontanAgreed. Todd, Marcus, to answer your question, what we've found is we do satellite testing all the time with the laboratories because once we have and know a specific phenotype, is this actually tested this amount, And we have it certified. Then we send that out to three to four other laboratories and see what the test comes back to be. So that's how we in the industry, currently as dispensaries, we're trying to constantly test these laboratories to make sure they're doing so, as well as asking to make sure you see the calibration of the machinery before the test is even done, you know, depending on the, you know, the UVH, PLC, gas permeantograph, et cetera.

1:58:02SpeakerThat's called a ring test. And so a ring test is really important, but one thing that I really encourage dispensaries to do when they're doing ring tests is to get yourself five grams of whatever sample you're going to flower it and mill it, or better yet, ten grams and combine it all into one uniform sample and then send that out to the labs because that way you're eliminating any...

1:58:30SpeakerInterbud variability that might exist, because that's something that really does happen on the plant.

1:58:36Etienne FontanWe've learned to take a representation from a pound to a quarter pound, and the labs have showed us how to do that, so you're not just getting from one particular bud, you're getting it from the shag, from a flower, from a middle flower, from a lower flower, so you can get as best a representation.

1:58:53SpeakerThe best is if you mill it, and you grind it all up, and then everybody gets the same sample. And a lot of labs don't like to do that because they want, part of the protocol is taking a picture of your bud, but in this case it's more important to do it the other way. And from a cultivator's perspective, this also comes down to what makes up a lot size.

1:59:13SpeakerSo a dispensary might not want to buy one pound of a variety, they want to buy five pounds so that when they have to spend the $200 to do all the testing on the Sample, then they can amortize that cost over five pounds as opposed to it being over one pound.

1:59:30MrYou know, it's interesting how you see the industry is splitting off, and it's splitting off in bad ways and it's splitting off in good ways. But what I'm just noticing is that, you know, flowers, for example, you know, is always the starting product, at least until we learn how to manufacture flowers. Manually. So, you know, it depends on what region you're in, what market you're in, whether those flowers are going to be processed at all, or whether they're going to be sold as flowers.

2:00:05MrIs it going to be processed into a concentrate? Is it going to get processed all the way down into RSO? The farther you process it down, the more expensive it becomes. You know, and it's just interesting to see all these different markets opening up, and it's all... It's all driven by consumer demand, I suppose, like any other product.

2:00:32SpeakerDriven by regulation. Some markets allow there to be things that concentrate. Some markets don't allow there to be concentrate. Some markets only allow CBD varieties. Canada's allowing olive oil but no other types of concentrate. It really varies by region to region. It makes it difficult for people to get accurate information.

2:00:56MrAbsolutely, absolutely. You know, in California here, you know, we're known as the wild west and it still is so because we don't have any real regulations for people to have legal transactions from producers to suppliers. You know, it's really interesting to see like in a place like L.A. where they have such a wide variety of products on the shelf. All the way from the cheapest consumables and the cheapest smokables all the way up to the most expensive RSL oils and topicals and ingestibles.

2:01:40MrSo that's where I'm speaking where you definitely see the market kind of modulating itself.

2:01:52MrAnd depending on how much is produced is depending on how much you see of each. And it's just interesting because it's just a little microcosm of what we may see in the coming years as legalization rolls out across the lands.

2:02:06SpeakerI think it's a great example of, and if you would, American ingenuity because this market never developed like this in Amsterdam, for instance. It's still ash and grass. People never really stepped up and packaged and made diversity and really, you know, Branded themselves quite like we saw happen even in somewhat illegal places like California. I think it's great, you know, because people will start making consistent products and people will be able to go in and look for consistent labeling, consistent testing, consistent packaging and get a consistent effect.

2:02:39SpeakerAnd when you're sick, that's the biggest thing you need.

2:02:43MrIt is, and that's where people listening, that's where it's going to separate the The real grinders, the people who want to grind out a real business and are willing to do all the research to find out what it takes to make legal packaging and all the steps for registering products and getting ahead of the curve. People are really getting ingenious about packaging and looking forward to being on Whole Foods shelves and all kinds of homeopathic remedies and who knows what's going to happen, which is going to happen.

2:03:21MrThere you go, you know. Yeah.

2:03:24SpeakerNick, they're really slick marketing, even for these CO2 cartridges. I'm sure you've seen these, Kyle, these Absolute Extract and these types of companies that make these really nice little CO2 cartridges. Sure, yeah. The packaging is really, really slick, and they're actually a great product. I mean, they're not as flavorful as some of the other concentrates, but I just think, you know, for people like my mom, who's just...

2:03:52SpeakerShe could benefit from cannabis, but she's not going to be loading a pipe. She has no idea. One of my friends is going through chemo and he has cyclical vomiting, which he can't even call. It's going to come on and he gets sick within 20 seconds of realizing he's going to get sick. And these little vape pens have saved his ass. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:04:30SpeakerOnce we can engineer these resins to have different compounds too, that would be a great way to give CBD to a child or deliver different medicines to people that don't want to be smoking joints or smelling like they're smoking joints. It's pretty cool. The market's diversifying. I really hope in Canada they allow that kind of stuff to go forward.

2:04:56BubblemanThe Supreme Court has already allowed it. It just seems that Health Canada wants it.

2:05:00SpeakerYou know, it's the same way it always happens there, Marcus. It's like they allowed it and then the government did the absolute minimum that they could do to go by the letter of what the Supreme Court ruled. Unfortunately, even though they said, okay, well, a patient can have extracts, the safest thing would be to allow one of these commercial producers to produce a standardized extract. Imagine you could work out a deal with One of the companies and teach them how to make a really nice hash that they can sell.

2:05:32SpeakerYou know, like, that's safer than people doing it at home. Maybe not for bubble hash, but for things like butane extracts for sure or CO2 extracts. There's a huge outlay of expense to get involved in that kind of thing, you know? I don't know.

2:05:52SpeakerIt's disappointing that...

2:05:54MrI don't know either. I feel a little like a dinosaur. I'm one of the older guys here on the panel. You know, but for me, I'm just enjoying staying old school and sticking with, you know, I guess my niche, which is growing premium flowers. And I bring that up because All of these concentrates and the tonnage of cannabis, of medicine being grown, a lot of it is actually poisonous.

2:06:32MrAnd so we have to impress upon the growers and then it gets back to money again. It gets back to money being the bottom line and growing gram per square inch. I don't know what the latest calculation is for wiring it down to the nuts and bolts. And sometimes certain things in life have to not be about the money if you really want to get it right.

2:07:04MrAnd, you know,

2:07:08BubblemanI hear you. High integrity, often low profit.

2:07:13SpeakerWell, it's economies of scale, right? It's like we were talking about the other day. You get to a certain size, you can produce it cheaper, you can make more money. And so that inevitably pushes these industries to companies that can make more money or have more money to get into the game.

2:07:33SpeakerSo it's a disadvantage to the small producer up in Humboldt that's got 25 plants or Mendocino 25 plants or wherever it is. It's not easy.

2:07:46MrIt could be a disadvantage to the actual evolution of this whole industry as well because by pushing things along at a certain speed because People are trying to make it efficient to make the most amount of money. They could circumvent actual solutions that are medical or health-wise for the almighty dollar. I'm just being devil's advocate here.

2:08:13SpeakerYeah, but it goes both ways, right? I mean, right now, say $2,000 a pound to the grower. Whereas if it was $100 a pound or even $50 a pound to the grower, then the medicine could be cheaper on the other end. So it doesn't have to be $55.08 at a dispensary when you're talking about medicine. The price is kind of ridiculous if you ask me.

2:08:37MrAbsolutely. It should be available to everybody and that's the ultimate goal. So there's a lot of ways to attack an angle, right? So my angle is to teach everybody how to grow their own.

2:08:49SpeakerKyle, now, I just want to throw in that, because you guys are bringing up the two sides of it. We always, every time we're like, it should be cheaper, and then we turn around and say, everything's covered in poison, we've got to do better. How do the two meet when there's very, where it's so expensive and people aren't doing good? How does it get cheaper and people do good?

2:09:10SpeakerI mean, that's why Kyle's going against the grain. He's like, I can't fix the greater monster, so I'll individually free the people who recognize the problem.

2:09:19MrExactly. That is exactly kind of what I'm alluding to, yes. Yeah.

2:09:24SpeakerBut again, it has to be... Listen, I know it sounds like I don't support the small guy when we talk about these things, but I do. I really do. It just... Everybody has to step up their game. Everybody has to step up their game. It's not good enough anymore to just float by and say, oh, I'll just spray some microbutan along the plants when there's PM or I'll use some nasty chemical to get rid of the mice.

2:09:50SpeakerYou can't do that. You can't do that.

2:09:53MrYou know what would make me happy, Chimera, is just if, and I'm just going to use this term, guys like you, we don't know, and I wasn't harshing on you for not being against, for the small guy. It's just that if everybody who was trying to get facilities built and trying to get it regulated so that people can make millions of dollars, also in their bills include the right for the individual to be able to grow their own medicine.

2:10:16MrSo maybe they don't want to do it for money. They just want to do it because they have the strain that cures what ails them. And the factory down the street does not have the strain. To cure what ails them. So, you know, we can't get circumvented by these huge corporations. No, for sure.

2:10:36SpeakerAnd don't get me wrong. I'm not one of the big corporations. I am the small guy. I'm... It's just... Everybody... I'm just talking about regulations and things that are coming in the new world as far as responsibly putting products out onto the market and ensuring that there's a good, healthy diversity. It's not... You know, you can't... Even the big guys, even these huge companies or these companies, like you see some of these extract companies in California.

2:11:03SpeakerThey're all over the state. They're in every dispensary. They're making edibles. They're making these e-pen things. They're doing it all, and they're clearly, clearly making some bank. So it's like when they do their business, their protocols, it all has to be done in line with the same thing that you'd expect in the production of your Your tomatoes or your lettuce or your Kansas soup or your beef or whatever it is, you have to...

2:11:30SpeakerYou have to, it can't be Wild West anymore. It can't be, oh, just decide what spray is on the plants or, you know, all that kind of stuff. You can't. It's not, it doesn't, that, and the Emerald Cup was proof of all this stuff, you know.

2:11:46MrAnd that's why we're mired down in where we are right now. And see, look, all I'm doing right now is getting a little air time, and I guess I'm playing devil's advocate, but it's what I do when I go into a garden. You know, when somebody calls me in to look at their garden, I immediately look for what's wrong with it. Most of them are beautiful, most of them are great, and so I look for little things I can pick at to make it better.

2:12:07MrAnd so all's I'm saying is pick good business partners, and we'll all progress through this together, you know?

2:12:21SpeakerYeah, I hope so. I hope everybody can make the... Because I kind of look at it as... The change. And you just don't see it as much in California and in some of the American markets because it hasn't really come to California yet. California's coming in the next two years. The change is coming to California. And there will be a whole bunch of people that are in right now and they don't make the change.

2:12:43SpeakerThey'll be over. They won't be able to, whether it's for money or process or their inattention to good farming and... General manufacturing practices, they're not going to be able to make the new regulated market.

2:13:02MrThat's okay. The regulated market and all is going to go. I'm concerned with states passing laws that allow factory farming to happen, but they don't allow personal cultivation at home. I'm concerned about that. I don't want those laws to get written. I don't want them to get favored. I want people to stand up and say, that's all great. I'm all for progress. I'm not anti either. I believe that kind of like the headset and the computer, it's got to be a hybrid.

2:13:35MrEverything's going to mesh and fall out the way it should be.

2:13:42SpeakerIt'll be like microbrew, like you can brew beer at home and certainly you can go buy mass manufactured Budweiser from some huge corporation or you can go down to your local microbrew and I got, we got plenty of them all over the place. I mean, microbrew makes a quality product and it costs a little bit more than Budweiser does and don't you think that they'll still be like a high end Thank you for joining us.

2:14:28SpeakerSo, cannabis, which is what the Budweiser analogy would be, right?

2:14:33MrIt can as long as we don't regulate it out and as long as there's the wide broad spectrum and that's why it's so important to make sure that as these states pass these laws legalizing cannabis that they don't leave out the little guy and it's not, I'm not talking about the little guy wanting to make money. I'm talking about the little guy wanting to grow his own tomatoes.

2:14:56MrYeah. You know? I'm with you 100% on that. It's the exact same thing. Because it's the diversity. It's the diversity of all of the, we're all rebels here in some respect, okay? And it's the diversity of the rebels that brought us to where we are now, the thousands of different strains and getting deep down into these cannabinoid profiles. This wasn't led, we weren't led here by a bunch of laboratories or led here by a bunch of statisticians, you know?

2:15:28MrWe're led here by us, and somehow we're going to keep a little bit of control of this thing.

2:15:37SpeakerYeah, and I welcome everyone. Part of the thing that's sucked so bad about the last 25 years is that it's just crushed every ability to... Bring statisticians and labs into the picture. They're not our enemy. That's right. They're not competing with us in any way. They can really help us, and they can help us bring cannabis to the next level.

2:16:03BubblemanYep. Hemp guy, Skunk Man Sam just said, I was led by my lab. So this is a pretty powerful comment from the Skunk Man in the chat there right now about that very thing.

2:16:16SpeakerI said it the other week. It's like, You can't find things unless you look for them with the right equipment.

2:16:25BubblemanI take back to my question, do we have to worry about the labs? Are all labs labs? Are there different levels? Is there something we should be looking for in a lab? How does that work? Anyone can buy these machines and just start testing?

2:16:42SpeakerNo, well, no, it's different in different regulations. Like, for example, in Canada, you couldn't even set up a lab right now. If you wanted to get in one of these labs and be certified by Health Canada, you could, by definition, not deal with Cheryl or deal with you or deal with me, right? You'd only be able to deal with the LPs, whereas in California, the regulations are different.

2:17:05SpeakerYou are allowed to bring your medicine in to a laboratory to have it tested. So the things that keep laboratories honest is ring tests. You take the same bud, you take 10 grams of the same bud, you grind it all up, and you break it up into 10 one-gram packages, and then you send the same bud to all the labs, and you test them. Like how many?

2:17:24SpeakerLike three, four different labs? How many labs are there? I mean, how many labs do you use? The labs are a service, right? They're a service industry.

2:17:31BubblemanIt's going to get expensive. I mean, I've never tested cannabis, part to say. I did test some cannabis oil in the sense of like hemp seed oil, and I had it sent out to three labs just to kind of, you know, do the redundancy plus one, and the numbers were incredibly close, so I felt fairly trusting in the fact that they knew what the percentage of protein powder isolate was, they knew what the percentage of Thank you for watching.

2:18:16BubblemanIt smells kind of like paint or paint thinner.

2:18:20SpeakerThere's that, I don't know what it is in the oil that just goes bad, but it smells. It's basically oxidizing, and when it does, it makes an aldehyde, and the aldehyde that you're smelling is, yeah, the foul-smelling aldehyde.

2:18:33MrBueno. Always smell something before you put it in your mouth.

2:18:38SpeakerBut you're right, Marcus, it is difficult to know how to, and it is expensive to validate labs and to do all these things, and that's why if it were legal, for example, say it was legal in Vancouver, you'd have a patient's cooperative, and the patient's cooperative would do these kind of tests, and it wouldn't be up to every person, because it's too expensive to do. Listen, having a lab or running a lab for your own use is too expensive.

2:19:01SpeakerYou can't afford to do it unless you're rich, even for breeding. Goal!

2:19:09SpeakerMarcus, Marcus, I just want to say something. I think this is a fantastic conversation. I haven't been on here for a couple of months. As you know, I've been busy, but this is just a fantastic conversation. One of the interesting things I'm seeing going on here in Canada is the LP system that we have, they don't have to have their product independently verified by a lab, so they can do their own independent verification.

2:19:35SpeakerThat's not true. That's wrong. That's wrong. No, no, it's true, it's wrong, but it's true. No, I don't believe it is true. I think that the labs do have to have, they can test their own stuff, but I think before it goes out the door it has to be independently tested. No, I can assure you that is not the case. And I'm also aware, and I can't tell you who, but if you speak privately offline I can tell you, so I'm aware of LPs that, They've convinced Health Canada they do not need to test for pesticides because pesticides are not allowed.

2:20:09SpeakerWhy would they need to test for them? Because they're not allowed to use them. That's why you test for them. Exactly. And I'm aware of a very reputable lab who tested and found pesticides and said, They are using pesticides even though they're not allowed to. There's something wrong there.

2:20:34SpeakerTo me, that's not really good enough. Like, if that's the case and these people are producing medical cannabis under the MMPR and testing medicine and the medicine is shown to have pesticides in it, that needs to be public information. I think it's going to come out. Okay, well, it needs to because that's unethical. Even to know that and not make that test available is unethical. So, but it brings into question all these things about chain of custody and did the sample really come from the LPs and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

2:21:04SpeakerBut my understanding, and I'm not an LP, and I don't work for an LP, so put it that way, I haven't really delved into all those things that tightly, but I do believe that medicine produced by licensed producers has to be tested by an independent, validated laboratory before it's sold on the market. And the companies can do their own testing For in-house research, but before any product is sold on the market, it needs to go into dispensaries.

2:21:30SpeakerAnd so, you know, in the United States, you have Americans for Safe Access, and they've developed this program where they're auditing laboratories, they're auditing production sites, they're auditing dispensaries, and they issue certifications so that patients can know when they go to a dispensary that A, the medicine was tested, B, it was tested by a validated independent lab, and C, you know, It wasn't all done by one company because obviously if one company is doing the growing and the selling of the product, it's really easy for them to just say, oh well, we're going to omit this detail about the test or this cultivation practice.

2:22:12SpeakerThat's why these systems are in place where you have independent laboratory testing because it's a third party. I hear exactly what you're saying and I Agree with your sentiments completely, but I can absolutely assure, I have done work for a number of LPs, and I can assure you they do not need to independently verify with lab tests. I'm going to look into that. I think it's wrong, I think they should have to, but they do not have to.

2:22:47BubblemanCrazy for them to get something like that when the rules are so strict, like just insanely strict around even like how they have to destroy their trim. There's like $40,000 machines, these giant big like drill machines that grind up the herb and then mix it in with like cow shit or something. There's like an 800 gallon vat of shit and it mixes it in and then they spray it out on like the property grass or whatever.

2:23:14BubblemanI'm like that seems like pretty excessive. And then they Then they just make a mistake like that and don't have them test for pesticides?

2:23:23SpeakerYeah, the environment within which I feel some sympathy for the LPs, the environment within which they work is so punitive and so restrictive with quality assurance and with security and a whole host of other legislative and procedural processes and SOPs. And yet this one area, I just shake my head and say, why would you not insist on this? But They do not.

2:23:48BubblemanI'll tell you, just visiting a few of the LPs, I was in one out east about a year ago, and I remember Health Canada showed up while we were there, and it was like, you would have thought the place was getting raided or something, like the way these dudes rolled up, they rolled up in all their same vehicles, white trucks, and they all jumped out with their lab coats on, and I was like, what the fuck, who are these guys?

2:24:13BubblemanIt's like, oh, it's Health Canada. You know, sporadic tests or whatever, like they just show up and surprise them. And it was just, it was definitely a weird energy to be at this facility and be like, oh, okay, right on, this is great. And then all of a sudden, like, what's going on? Like, you know, because, of course, we're there puffing on the side of the building, something you're probably not supposed to be doing at these, which is another insane thing.

2:24:37BubblemanLike, you can't consume medicine at a facility that produces medicine. Okay, all right, I'll go with that. I'll just walk out. Just don't put me in jail. I'll go walk outside and walk across the street. I have no problem. I've been doing it since the beginning of time. I mean, I started smoking cannabis like in a little metal garage behind my dad's house.

2:24:57Etienne FontanIn the woods.

2:24:59BubblemanYeah, that was where, you know, that's where we were first sort of like, okay, I don't think anyone's around. Let's do this. Who's got a lighter? We've come a long way normalizing the use of cannabis. I think it's fairly important. You know, not only the aspect of the medical, which we often talk about here in Hash Church, but, you know, the preventative and the recreational. To me, I mean, there could be philosophical debates made for either one of those things being as important as the next one.

2:25:36BubblemanYou know, we always put medical at the front. We always make Make sure that the patients are first and foremost. And I feel that as well, but at the same time, I'm like, but what if we could put other people at the front, you know, with these people, and prevent them from one day having to be pushed to the front because now they have a terrible disease, you know?

2:25:55BubblemanHow important is it to keep people, you know, safe before they... You know what you're talking about in essence?

2:26:02MrYou're talking about moderation, you know? We're talking about, wouldn't it be nice if we could set up this... Thank you so much for joining us.

2:26:36SpeakerI think that these are culturally, they're terms that we've started using over the past, you know, however long, but, like, I don't think they're right. Like, when I smoke a joint or when I have a bowl, I feel an effect, but I don't feel high. It's just like when I have a beer, you know, I feel the effect, but I'm not drunk. You know what?

2:26:58MrI have no problem interchanging terms like cannabis, marijuana, pot, You know, and sometimes it's medicine, and sometimes it's like a beer or alcohol for recreation. So it's just about preserving personal choice. We're coming into a new enlightened age, you know, with tolerance. And that's why we're seeing cannabis be legalized, is because people are deciding to be tolerant of others' decisions. A medical got us in the door, but...

2:27:35MrLike Mark said, that's not, you could have a philosophical decision. It goes hand in hand making sure that personal rights are not, you know, that families are not destroyed because somebody chose to smoke a joint instead of drink a beer. That issue still exists every day in our world.

2:27:57BubblemanSkunk Man Sam says, if you don't get high when you smoke, you need different herb or resin.

2:28:05MrYou know what? I got a great idea for a bumper sticker. I keep throwing it out there. Maybe somebody will make one. It goes, bad attitude, wrong strain.

2:28:17BubblemanNot bad, but I got to say, I think Chimera nailed the one today that is my next t-shirt, which is Canabs and Terps.

2:28:29BubblemanCanabs and Terps, man. Canabs and Terps. I like the term Canabs, Chimera. It's a It resonates with me, pun intended.

2:28:40SpeakerIt's one of those ones, when you start saying these words often enough, you definitely need to shorten them. Like, you know, monoturps and sesquiterps, it's just like... Monos. Yeah, well, I just felt like I had to drop the een and the anoids, you know, the canoids, it was just too much. Saying these words over and over again, it's like I'm saving a significant chunk of my life by shortening the word, you know.

2:29:05BubblemanDude, trust me. Cannabs is now a word. It will be used now in the future. There's probably going to be a Cannabs hashtag on Instagram. It's probably happening. Done.

2:29:16SpeakerMan, I bet you right now somebody is registering Cannabs.com.

2:29:21BubblemanCannabs.com. Cannabs and Terps.com.

2:29:24TonyIt's already done. There's 22 likes on the new page. It happened 15 seconds ago.

2:29:29BubblemanSomebody's already copyrighted them.

2:29:35SpeakerJust found the who is, and it's Tony Verzura's got them.

2:29:39BubblemanOh my God. Hey, welcome, Tony. I see you were driving in the car.

2:29:44TonyYeah, I had a rough morning. Sorry I was late, guys. I'm just working myself to a complete swollen state where you can't move anymore. Ah, good to hear, buddy. Good to hear. Yeah. But, yeah, I wanted to chime in on some of the stuff that Kyle was saying. The... You know, it's like if you look at Whole Foods and you go into the store and they basically have, you know, a plethora of all these vegan, organic, natural products.

2:30:18TonyThey even have their own in-house store brand that they have, but they're not vertically integrated. They're not out there owning the cows and the king crab legs and shrimp and fish and And all of the vegetables that you see there, they're not forced to own the farms. They're not forced to own and grow, cultivate, process, put it into a product, put it on the shelf. And the second the world wakes up, whether it's in Canada or the United States or anywhere else, and allows us to just be like a grocery store...

2:30:58TonyAnd even there, you have labels on everything. You're not going to buy one single thing in a grocery store that doesn't tell you what the nutrients and vitamins are and how much sugar is in proteins and those kind of things. But right now, they treat us like we're cultivating plutonium. I mean, you're in Canada and they have these safe rooms that are, you know, three feet of concrete, i-retinal, electrical shock gates, you know, all this stuff, yet they're on the honor system.

2:31:28TonyI mean, that was pretty shocking to hear. It's like, well, we don't have a lot of break-ins, so... You know, we don't lock our doors, so there's no reason to have locks. We're not going to sell locks in Canada anymore.

2:31:40MrThat's an interesting juxtaposition for sure, you know. I mean, you know, there's a lot of evolution to go on. I'm certainly not any kind of an expert as to, you know, how things get regulated or labeled. But, you know, it is interesting to look at how this new burgeoning industry is It has something to do with the fact that marijuana, cannabis, whatever term you choose to use, terps, cannabs, they certainly are psychoactive and it is a drug.

2:32:22MrThis is where now when the state steps in and says, I'm going to say this is okay. Um, uh, so I'm opening up a whole new area of possible litigation and lawsuits. And so it's just so damn convoluted, the intentions on, you know, the legislators, you know, they appear to be on your side and they're trying to write the laws, but then are they truly just ignorant and naive or are they being obstructive?

2:32:54MrIt's extremely convoluted. And, um, uh, You know, I mean, California just a year ago or a year or two ago voted against labeling on foods. The industries, the powers that be managed to convince citizens that it would raise food prices if they had to include the fact that it was genetically modified or that it contained, you know, GMOs. You know, which is absolutely ridiculous. We're just, we need, man, it's just a big convoluted intertwining of people that are in for the right reasons, be it monetary or not, people who are in the legislative branches that are in it for the right and or wrong reasons, There's still obstruction, you know, and I don't know, we just have to continue fighting, standing up for people as individuals as we've been doing and seeing over the last few years with the LGBT movement, I don't know if I said that right, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, yeah, and you know, and taking the rebel flag down from the Carolina State House and Supreme Court decisions on gay marriage and, you know, it's all about just, you know, kind of saying, you know, if what you're doing isn't hurting me, then I have no right to have anything against it.

2:34:41MrYou know, and that's all wrapped up in this back down, you know, how do we label it, you know? It's, um, it's, uh, It's going to be decided by all of us people who stand up and go on radio shows and go to the town hall meetings and get involved.

2:35:03MrBoy, this is a big complicated thing, isn't it?

2:35:08BubblemanIt is definitely a complicated thing, but you know what? We need to be pushing through nicely. 2016 to me is going to be a year that we look back at in 20 years and definitely look back and say, wow, that was a major crossroads. A lot happened. I felt like 2015 was a pretty amazing year for cannabis. It started becoming so mainstream that I mean, to me, I don't think it's that they're finally listening.

2:35:36BubblemanIt's that they're finally allowing people to hear it and they're putting it in their mainstream media. And these stories that used to just be so ridiculous and preposterous and just absurd, really, are starting to become more positive and more, you know, like educational and more, you know, putting cannabis in a different light. It's even in... Even in the comedy sketches and the way they attack cannabis now, it comes from a less...

2:36:07BubblemanIt just seems like someone from way up high was just like, okay, we can change how we're brainwashing these sheeple now. Let's just turn the channel and we're going to start brainwashing them slowly but surely that this is an okay thing for them to have and that it's not actually the incredible nuisance that we... I give no credit to the powers that be.

2:36:33MrIt's evolution, my friend. The powers that be didn't decide to let gay marriage happen. It's people being loud and setting good examples.

2:36:48MrYou know, 2016 is going to be a magnificent year to look back on, hopefully. There's going to be a lot of states vote in. And then the United States, you know, we're going to get through this election, whatever's going to happen, and the discussion of rescheduling and legalizing is going to continue no matter who gets elected because it's a perfect storm of finances and what's right for the civil public health.

2:37:18MrSo being on the opposite side is bad for either side. So the discussion is going to continue rolling forward no matter what and it's going to be It's going to be interesting. It may even be brought up on primetime television in the last debates between legalization of cannabis could become an actual platform for being elected President of the United States. It's possible. They could talk about it.

2:37:46BubblemanAnd we just hit 800 viewers just as you said that.

2:37:51SpeakerIt already is. It already is a platform issue in this election. And Bernie Sanders is the only one who's come out and said he's going to reschedule cannabis. So everyone who's watching and all your family members should all vote for Bernie Sanders. Absolutely. Feel the burn. Bernie is our man. And he's going to have Elizabeth Warren as his vice president. And I'm telling you, it's going to be a different Washington, D.C. That's right.

2:38:25MrAnd Elizabeth Warren will make a great president to Bernie Sanders. The first woman president.

2:38:33BubblemanYoung Man Sam has a question for you, Kyle. He wants to ask you, what is the most important cannabis idea that you came across in the past year? In the last year? Yeah, in this just last year, a cannabis-related idea, the most important that you could see, you know, I guess important in the sense that, you know, game changer maybe.

2:38:56MrOkay, it may seem simple, but it popped in my head, and it only became apparent when I started managing larger-sized grow rooms, and that was that low humidity will prevent nutrient uptake. So when you have a large room, depending on your atmosphere where you're growing, you may actually need to humidify in order to be able to light the room with the max amount of lumens per square foot.

2:39:34MrOnce you put those lights in the room, in order for the plant to be able to uptake it, there has to be certain levels of CO2, and

2:39:44MrBrain fart number two. What was I talking about, Mark?

2:39:46BubblemanYou were talking about your, you know, basically... Using a humidifier to uptake. What was your game changer concept that you saw in the cannabis world this year? You were talking about people finding the room to be able to uptake nutrients.

2:40:02MrDr. Yeah. If you want a high growth rate, a high plant metabolism rate, everything has to be balanced out. You just can't do that in a low humidity environment, 30%, 35%. It makes it really hard. Once you get up to 50% or even 55% during the daytime growing, you will see the leaves green up and the leaves come up in the air and the ridges smooth out and they will uptake a lot more nutrients.

2:40:27MrIt's really simple, but I didn't know that growing in bedrooms or garages or four light, eight light, ten light. But once you get larger and you start pushing them, the number of watts gets really, really high. All right, so that's the one.

2:40:58SpeakerYou just dropped a bomb because you said the ridges finally smooth out and I see so many videos where people end up viewing the ridges as a sign of killer nutrient uptake and the plant is kicking ass and it's actually, when I look at it as an accordion or a cactus, it's an unhappy cactus when you see wrinkles in a cactus.

2:41:18MrYou know, the plant is wrinkling from some kind of negative stress, be it environmental or, you know, something that you input. Because when the leaf is smooth, it can take in the ultimate amount of sunlight. And the ridges provide valleys of shade. And the next thing that the leaf will do is it will curl up. And it's trying to prevent from being allowed to reach all of the rays.

2:41:50MrIt's trying to slow down the rate of photosynthesis. For sure.

2:41:58SpeakerI guess I'll sneak one last grower question in since you guys are on that tip. So now I've seen praying leaves are again one of those things where I'm like, yeah, that's the ultimate. I've seen it. Dudes have said it. But is it the ultimate also from the standpoint of light absorption and nutrient flow? Like it's a representation of a lot of things. If you can get that actual pump flowing at maximum potential, is that what it is a sign of?

2:42:24SpeakerOr is it just a condition that comes and goes?

2:42:27MrIn my experience, it's a sign of maximum rate of photosynthesis. It takes energy for the plant to push those leaf tips up higher than the actual plant. And it's not going to expend that energy unless it's got that exit. It's like Hans and Franz, pump you up. You know, they're just pumped up and they're just reaching for more light. That's when they're the happiest.

2:42:54SpeakerI'm not convinced they are reaching for more light, too, because like you said earlier, you know, plants, they've killed their leaves, too, or away from the sun to deal with, like you said, too much sun at a certain point in time, so it could, you know, when they're doing that, they're not exactly right, they're not leaving the leaves out to get the most sun. But I just wanted to say one thing, too, on that note, is if you actually look at plants, if you took A series of, what do they call it, like photographs over time, like every five minutes, you set up a camera in your grow room and take pictures every five minutes, you'll see plants go through these stages during the day, throughout the day.

2:43:37SpeakerAnd they kind of move, they're not just static, they kind of move around. And so I think it's probably a form of tropism, I'm not exactly sure what it is.

2:43:45MrIt is, it is definitely, it's like if you would compare like indoor plants versus outdoor plants, you know. Outdoor plants, you're not going to see the leaves raised as high. So it's an interesting comparison, but also note the level of resin production that you get on indoor plants versus outdoor plants. You know, indoor plants are, when they're grown properly versus outdoor plants grown properly, the average smoker will choose the indoor grown flower And that's generally because the trichomes are stacked closer together, if you look at them, under a microscope.

2:44:32MrAnd... Darth Vader gummy. Thank you, Stone Sweets. And so it's definitely, you know, I've just opened up a big debate, indoor versus outdoor production. But, you know... Again, the market usually drives, and I've never... Magnificently grown indoor weed will always sell for more to a flower purveyor than magnificently grown outdoor weed. I believe... So what I'm trying to justify is that... That visualization of the plants raising up for more light has something to do with them taking in more light and therefore producing more resin.

2:45:22SpeakerYeah, that's a big leap. It is. Connor, the reason why it's, think of it this way. Resin, I'm just going to say it straight up. I don't think you'd make the leap to resin. But if you do look at, set up your camera, take a photo every five minutes of your room, And set it up for like three days and get however many photos on the light cycle and then watch them in video format.

2:45:45SpeakerYou'll see pretty clearly that the plants, they move around. And so I think that crowning or praying or whatever you want to call it Is just a temporary thing. I rarely, rarely see rooms or grower environments or greenhouses for that matter where you go inside and the plant is constantly doing the same thing.

2:46:08MrOh no, no, no. We definitely do not do it constantly. I was just trying to elaborate as to whether it was a positive factor or a negative factor.

2:46:19SpeakerOh no, it's for sure. Yeah, okay, I hear you. You know?

2:46:23MrThat's right. And making a fair evaluation for, you know, an indoor garden which is man-made and it's not attached to the earth, And another big distinction is that indoor plants are not subjected to a photoperiod that changes one minute every day, either through the vegetative stage and through the flowering stage. So they're different animals. They're really different animals. They create a different cannabinoid profile for sure. And again, You know, we need both going forward.

2:46:58MrWe need fields of beautiful cannabis grown outside, and we need to be able to allow people to grow acres of it indoors so that they can provide low-cost terpenes and cannabs for patients who need it and for people who want to use it.

2:47:24SpeakerChimera, just because I asked the question is because I've noticed I don't see that behavior any time. I do deep water culture, so I raise the bucket to examine everything and anything I'm studying. I don't see it in any plant that has Pythium suffering from any form of root attack. But anytime my plants are having excessive root growth, that constant pumping and praying surface area behavior is drastic.

2:47:48SpeakerAnd I do see it in outdoor plants grown in the tropics where the sun is vertical like a grow room. It is not as the latitude goes up and up and up. The sun is a tilt. But when you get to the equator, the vertical sun at a certain point of the year is just a dangling ball before it goes down because it's crossing the cancers. Sorry, the equator, half the year it's on one side of this.

2:48:12SpeakerThe sky, half of the earth is on the other. Those plants, they grow in very abnormal ways in many different forms of agriculture. And if you just change the row spacing to shade plants based on that weird sun, you get plants that are tall and straight or wide and fat. So when I was asking Kyle, it was mainly, I guess, it leads to, it's a sign of root growth, which is always a good behavior.

2:48:37SpeakerPotential expansion in the plant. That's what I was asking. Do you see it when... I don't know if it's a sign of root growth. I think what it's a sign of is... I don't know what it's a sign of.

2:48:51MrIt's a sign of extreme rate of photosynthesis. That's simply all you can say.

2:49:00SpeakerAnd the only way you're going to get to an extreme rate of photosynthesis... Really, unless you're monitoring the photosynthesis. Oh my God. Hey Kyle, can I ask you this? Do you just mean when the leaves are like standing up? Right. Like on the cover of this book right here. The leaves are all like erect. Right.

2:49:17MrExactly.

2:49:18SpeakerTo me, you know what that is? It's a good watering schedule. It's allowing the roots to get enough oxygen so that the plant has the enthusiasm or the vigor. I see a lot of grow rooms that over water and the leaves are always horizontal. They never really get to a point where the thing is like, And I've had friends point that out to me. And I could put up dozens of photos of plants in veg form and in flower that look like they're reaching.

2:49:48SpeakerIt's water cycle, in my opinion. It's getting it balanced. And all strains will do it. And then they'll do it indoors. They'll do it outdoors. I mean, you know, in my opinion, when you overwater them, they don't do it because I think it's an oxygen to the root thing. Todd, I could add to that right away. I'm in water 24-7. I added oxygen injections. So I'm actually at 10 milligrams per liter as a standard, and that's when I saw my plants take off, and obviously the pythium died back.

2:50:17SpeakerSo it's all basically making sense to me now. Yeah, you're in aquaponics. And a lot of people don't realize that you need this dry out period, if you will. You know, I moved to fabric pots a long time ago because I like how they breathe. You have to stay more on top of your watering schedule, but... I like how they work a lot better than the plastic pots that build up humidity and in a funky way just don't really work as well.

2:50:44SpeakerI like self-tunicating roots and this is how people are getting the monster plants up here in Northern California. They're going into like 300 gallon smart pots with a shitload of veg time and they're hitting right at the exact spring that they can. And these things are growing in, you know, 15, 20 foot monsters. It literally is amazing.

2:51:04MrYou're fundamentally saying absolutely that it's tied to growth rate. And Horatio had a really good analogy about the sun near the equator and drawing the plant leaves up higher because they're not tracking the sun because it's right up above. And if they weren't doing, if they weren't happy or healthy, if they were over watered, if they were, certainly if they were under watered, Uh, or if they didn't have the nutrition to be able to push the leaves up high, it's, it's, it's, it's a happy health sign of a happy, healthy plant.

2:51:39MrUm, and, uh.

2:51:43SpeakerThe ultimate potential for the day, pretty much.

2:51:46MrRight. And the longer throughout the day that the leaves, you can keep them pointing straight up, obviously the faster they're photosynthesizing. The more par lumens they're taking in and converting it into energy. That's the way, I mean, I know it's conjecture, I haven't proven it, but that's what my intuition tells me and that's the story I'm sticking to.

2:52:13BubblemanWell, I've always felt when I walked into the room and the plants were standing up like that, I've always been like, oh, the plants are happy. I never really broke it down to like it's this or that, but it always felt like something is good, most things are good.

2:52:28SpeakerAbsolutely. I've seen it as watering, to be honest. It's When I was at Positronics and I started watering, it was pointed out to me by one art of all people. I told them the same thing I said all the time. Once you get in the rhythm of it, I think the plant really does have vigor because you're not holding it back. I think we all fuck with the plant's growth.

2:52:53SpeakerIf a plant can do 100%, we usually don't deliver. We screw up here or there or somewhere. Humidity, temperature, water, nutrients, there's so many opportunities for us as a grower. To not hit a home run. And most cannabis never sees 100%. There's no such thing as 101 in my opinion.

2:53:13MrYou know what, I will, I want to add something that I've just learned recently. You know, again, working in some, a little bit larger facilities, I never would have thought to overwater before. And what I mean by that is, you know, you have drip trays under your pots. And it was always a super important thing for me never to have any freestanding water. And then I've learned that if you don't want to have to water every single day, that when you have this really high rate of photosynthesis, it's really okay to have an inch of water in the bottom of the pot, or even two inches of water in the bottom of the pot.

2:53:55MrAnd this is contrary to my whole methodology for 20 plus years, no freestanding water. But we've got such a high rate of photosynthesis that three, four hours later into the cycle, there's no more water in that tray. It's all been drawn up. And what you've done is you've extended the amount of time until you have to come back and water again. So you're mitigating hours that you spend in these large rooms with these large numbers of plants.

2:54:23MrJust throwing that in there.

2:54:27BubblemanThrowing it out, throwing it in, into the ring, out of the ring. Well, D420K was going to come in and say hi, but we have filled it up nicely in here today. Beautiful job, everyone.

2:54:39Etienne FontanHooray. Hey, did you guys hear what happened this week in Germany?

2:54:47BubblemanI did.

2:54:48Etienne FontanThe government has presented a draft of a law which would make cannabis flowers available on prescription by every doctor and forced health insurances to reimburse Canada's based medicines in certain cases. That's huge.

2:55:01MrGod damn them Germans, they're so pragmatic.

2:55:05BubblemanYeah, Alexander sent me that today. German government plans to regulate. Mr. Alexander Jan, who's been on our show on a few occasions, he's the guy that goes through the Bedrocan herb, like it's going out of... God damn them Germans, they're so pragmatic. That was creepy.

2:55:30MrThat was great.

2:55:33BubblemanThat's pretty funny.

2:55:35Etienne FontanWell, good luck, Germany. We wish you success because that's another G20 country, and that would really kick Europe really in the balls. Oh, yeah. France goes, but Germany is really the leading economic marker nowadays, so that's pretty big.

2:55:54SpeakerHey, I gotta say, I don't know if David's still in the chat, but if he is, I looked up that testing thing and it appears that he's correct, that there's nowhere in the MMPR regs that I could see at least that says that the lab testing has to be independent, so that's... Yeah, I would say that most anything that he says would be pretty accurate. That's a major, major failure of the Canadian system.

2:56:22SpeakerBut they allow the grower to test their own meds and report that. It should be independent. Unbelievable.

2:56:31MrUnbelievable.

2:56:33Etienne FontanYeah, we have that in Berkeley. In fact, Berkeley is the only city with, you know, full regs online. Everything has to be tested before it hits the floor. So I've had quite a few vendors who have not made the cut because When they actually came down to the much more millions and everything was broke down scientifically, yeah, that's the reality of your medicine.

2:56:59SpeakerListen to this one. One of the testing companies was finding growers that were always failing for powdery mildew and instead of the growers saying that they had to, they were cleaning up their mess and figuring out the problem in their production system, they were putting pressure on the testing lab to admit Thank you for watching.

2:57:46SpeakerAnd that know how to ask the right questions about their labs, you know, to question the results, interpret the results, see what they mean. That's the tough part. How do you put a mother like Cheryl who's just going onto the Bedricam site trying to get the all CBD weed or God forbid the olive oil extract as reasonable, you know, the natural sense is I'll trust the system that looks like my doctor and this is the bottom line and you really, you had just as, you had better luck basically going down to any local dispo and trying the random 80% oil, 80% mystery oil.

2:58:23SpeakerI don't know if you had better luck but you definitely Didn't have any worse luck. The Canadian system with cases like Cheryl's, the Canadian system fails her. The MMPR fails her and her child over and over and over again. It's inexcusable as far as I'm concerned. It's completely inexcusable.

2:58:45BubblemanI haven't seen a system yet anywhere in the world that produces an abundance of material so what everyone needs is available to them, whether it's that You know, 26 week pure haze or whether it's the, you know, dry sift taken from a specific region of Africans, Congolese strain. I'm just saying that There's not an abundance that it's there for everyone to just go and get. Anywhere that I go, and I'm sure California is the closest.

2:59:18SpeakerBut why is there not an abundance, right, is the question to ask. And the reason to that, as far as I'm concerned, is that those are what the regulations have forced us into. And so, like we were talking about before with these edible oils that are available from the LPs now, the government did the bare fucking minimum that they could do Thank you for watching.

3:00:05SpeakerI think Kyle was saying this, are the regulators reticent to let it go? Are they being stingy? Yes, they are being stingy.

3:00:15SpeakerThat's why we need to demand that we're part of the conversation moving forward. Because if you're not, if people just sit back and say, oh, we're doing Hash Church or we're doing whatever we do, it's like... It's great, and it helps share a lot of information with the people, but we all need to step up and make sure that our voices are heard. I think, Mark, we should talk to Kirk and see about creating a discussion, at least in Vancouver, and then moving that discussion across the country, because if not, what we're going to do is sit by and watch whatever system they develop get handed and shoved down our throats.

3:00:58MrI'm trying to get a hold of Yamileth Bolanos. She's a great activist and organizer here in L.A. And she has a new organization that's, she also organizes GLACA, the Greater Los Angeles Cannabis Association. And I really love her. She's a great woman. And she's formed a new organization, I'm trying to get the name of it from her, that focuses on growers. You know, and, you know, because as we move forward all this regulation, it's amazing how much time and effort they'll spend writing laws so that six people can make millions of dollars, you know, and they'll neglect, you know, writing laws to make it okay for someone to grow four lights in their garage.

3:01:52MrAnd, um, You know, having an organization like this is, it's called the Cultivators Alliance. She just got back to me. And so if you Google that, and they meet here in LA, and I want people across the nation, you know, to think about that. You know, you're involved, whether you're involved with Local Normal or whatever chapter of... of activism you're involved in you know just you know you might not be a grower and you might not think about it you might think that legalizing marijuana is the most important thing but along with that the only way we're going to maintain any sense of culture and not have it just be Nanograms this and nanograms that is by preserving the right for the individual to cultivate their own medicine.

3:02:46MrAnd that is not just me being a hippy-dippy thinking utopia. That is what is in the best interest, the best well-being of the public's health and well-being. Thank you for joining us.

3:03:17MrYou know, maladies from agoraphobia, from antisocial anxiety, from arthritic, from, you know, the list just goes on and on. But, you know, everybody's biology is different. And lots of people try cannabis and say, you know, and it takes time to find the strain that works for you. And to ignore these people in any sense, on any level, is a crime. Hmm. It's horrific to me.

3:03:50BubblemanYeah, it is what it is. It's a little bit ridiculous, but I digress.

3:03:56SpeakerIt's been 25 years of it. It's in such a state of flux right now that I don't know if it is what it is is right. I mean, I think that if we put effort into changing it and making it what we want it to be, or at least having our voices heard, that we can shape what it is.

3:04:11Etienne FontanI think you want to know what is it.

3:04:14MrYeah. It's being defined right now. This discussion is defining it. That's what we're doing. With that said, I think I might have to sign off, people.

3:04:30BubblemanWell, thanks for popping in, dude. Much appreciated on a Sunday afternoon. Literally just afternoon now, five minutes afternoon.

3:04:38MrThanks for finally letting me break my cherry.

3:04:41BubblemanHey, yeah, man, you're always welcome to come and shoot the shit with us here in Hash Church. We do it every Sunday.

3:04:48MrThank you everybody for letting me speak. I just want to mention really quick how hard it was for me to get hooked up. I'm literally right now, I don't know if you can tell, I got a headset on. See, I got a headset on. And so the sound is going in through the microphone on the headset, but I'm hearing you through the speakers on my computer. And I felt like Sulu pressing all those fake buttons on the old Star Trek and stuff to make the Starship Enterprise do all the things that it did.

3:05:13MrAnd it took me like 45 minutes, and you know, Mark, it took me like 10 tries before it actually worked. It worked once with the audio only, it worked once with the video only, and finally I got it hooked up. I'm glad you made it in, dude. Thanks, man. Thanks, you guys. Happy New Year, everybody. I hope to see you guys again soon.

3:05:33Etienne FontanThanks for coming in.

3:05:36SpeakerThank you, guys.

3:05:37Etienne FontanHappy New Year. Bong rip. Since he's not in here, maybe he'll get in here. Bong rip.

3:05:48SpeakerHey, so, Horatio, you asked earlier about the breeding of those CBD varieties and what people are doing in California and wherever else. A lot of it is feminized breeding just because it's a lot easier to track chemotypes that way. When does that catch up? I look at all the trends. We had the trend where it was like, let's get everyone high, fuck the CBD, breed this way.

3:06:10SpeakerThen it's like, oh my god, there's diseases that can make us money. Breed that way. I understand When people cannot basically devote their life to the complexity of anything, to simplify it is to control it. So feminization, like I heard what you said and I'm like, wow, is it that simple to really just multiply the potential and get the result? And when is the next medical solution or the next cannabinoid going to come out of traditional randomness that is more land race-like in its male versus female context?

3:06:45SpeakerThank you for watching.

3:07:11SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

3:07:41SpeakerI mean, it's one piece of the cannabinoid space, right? There's all these different cannabinoids that we can get in various ratios with each other and make medicines out of them. So the fact that we've now got CBD also in the toolbox almost everywhere in the world I think is a good deal, you know? Well, it's just like the fact that I could come in and basically say, look, I can distill THC, I can distill CBD, fuck your breeding, I'll just make up ratios and sell them and get results.

3:08:11SpeakerAnd then you're like, no, no, there's so much synergy we don't know, you can't start doing that yet. That's always the debate as I see people rush on, like, I isolate things in groups, I'm not really doing a pure isolation, so that if there is a cannabinoid I don't know about, it's still in that group working for me. But I know how much I don't know. And that's kind of what bothers me.

3:08:32SpeakerNobody really knows. I mean, I don't know if you saw the most recent GW patent, but they essentially patented all cannabinoids for use in neuroprotection. So it's like, if you knew, you'd make a huge fraud claim. Nobody knows. So I don't know for myself, though, if isolating single compounds is the way to go. It's just it doesn't need to be that way. And if you are doing it that way, then I kind of think that you should go through the FDA process because you're taking a single compound out that's different from a whole botanical extract or like a whole plant extract.

3:09:12SpeakerIs it different doing all this basically, it's not even inbreeding, but how is it different throwing silver nitrate on a plant and going boom, I basically put out some type of stress condition that caused you to fuck yourself and it's easier to get super Shaquille O'Neal's out of you than it is to actually find two couples that love each other. Listen dude, okay, I mean that's a great little speech and sound clip and everything, but it doesn't really mean much, you know, like We do know what happens when you spray STS on a plant.

3:09:44SpeakerYou spray STS on a plant, the silver ion blocks the ethylene receptor. The ethylene, which is one of five major hormones, can now not do the job that it's supposed to do. And out comes the other end. You get male flowers instead of female flowers being produced. We know exactly what it does. If you do the opposite, you spray ethylene on the plant, it produces female flowers.

3:10:06SpeakerSo ethylene is one of the five major plant hormones. It's like I'm not actually arguing the tech. I'm just crossing the languaging over to I got two syringes, I got some hemp, I got some THC only, and I'm going to copy your success and just squeeze the two ratios together. I'm like you. That's, it's really not about the breeding and that because I know that and I'm like that's reasonable but if I turn up the argument people are crossing that behavior over into other aspects of cannabis and we're missing the fact that I still want you to breed the perfect plant for me to extract.

3:10:42SpeakerI don't want to mix syringes because I believe in some natural synergy.

3:10:49SpeakerYeah, I just think it's a dangerous road to go down when we let random guys that are like In their basement call themselves chemists and they start extracting single compounds and doing whatever to them and then allowing them to mix shit together and go onto the market as far as selling medicine.

3:11:08BubblemanBut those same guys have pseudo labs set up in their basements and they're testing all that stuff and confirming that it's safe anyway. So this is the madness that is Canada.

3:11:21SpeakerYeah. How is it any more madness that I can produce a cleaner distillate for an actual pharmaceutical output than an LP thanks to the Health Canada guidelines? That's the house of problems. Let me ask you this question, Horatio. Are you analyzing your distillate? Thank you so much for joining us.

3:12:02SpeakerThank you for watching.

3:12:27SpeakerI don't know how right it is to be saying, oh, I'm making THC distillate, and then you're essentially fracturing out compounds of, granted, what's a safe mixture, but I think it sets a bad precedent. We can't just let any guy start fucking taking things out of plants and saying that he's got Thank you for watching.

3:13:03SpeakerThank you for watching.

3:13:22SpeakerThat I'm like, okay, well that explains where the vomiting comes from. This must be the pesticide. Here we're getting something that's close to what the medicine people are going at it is for, and I'm getting it in groups that contain all the cannabinoids, so I'm not going to the extreme, but now I have something that when it's on a dispensary level has got no rejection rate. Yeah, you're doing all this chemistry, and if you're not looking at a GC, you've got to be really careful, man.

3:13:50SpeakerI don't know. That's why it's one thing for people to be making crosses and selling herbs to people, but it's like once you're doing extracts and if you don't know what's in your extracts, you can be... It's why I've been a big proponent of you've got to understand flowers because when you concentrate in these techniques... I see basically every way I've been tempted to cut a corner that I wasn't willing to cut and then I know exactly what corners people are cutting and that's what scares me and makes me sick because no one is operating with any trepidation.

3:14:29SpeakerYeah, see, and this is kind of one of these things. It's like, look, this here, you probably can't see, you probably see these, I don't know, but it's like this is a company out of California that sells these extracts, and it's CO2 oil, and they advertise as nothing but CO2 oil. CO2, you know, goes under these huge pressures and temperatures when they're doing the extract, and it kills a lot of the spores, or all of the spores are bacteria or whatever, so you end up with these clean extracts.

3:14:55SpeakerAnd it's whole plant extract. It's not just one compound, but it's got, you know, terps and probably some waxes and who knows what else is in it.

3:15:09SpeakerBut, yeah, this is regulated out of the Canadian system, right? You can't have this. Even an LP can't make this. They have the machines that make these fucking oils... And then what they do is they wash it with ethanol and they clean out the turps and they take the cannabs and they resuspend it in like olive oil or whatever else. And they sell that for huge, huge bucks.

3:15:30SpeakerBut this thing that they could make out of the flowers and is like relatively safe and bacteria and mold free can't be sold because of the way that Health Canada made the ruling with the Supreme Court case, right? The Smith decision.

3:15:44BubblemanIs it people that literally make statements like, cannabis has no medical value?

3:15:52SpeakerWell, hopefully that gets a little bit less under the Trudeau camp, but it's like, you know what I'm seeing the problem with the Trudeau camp is now, is that he said, okay, I'm going to legalize it, and fuck, they've actually, they've gone for it, and they're going to let me legalize it, so now I have to be so responsible about it that, you know, and like essentially kowtow to every fucking Group that might want to have their say in it except the people that are going to be using the fucking product.

3:16:19SpeakerYou know, like it's insane and that's why I keep going on again about it's really important that in Canada that discussion goes on because if not we're going to be handed some insane form of legalization that falls under all the same rules as the MMPR where, you know, they're paying like, These facilities are paying like $10,000 a month to weigh their root balls so they can make sure that the roots don't escape when somebody turns them into a drug.

3:16:46SpeakerYou know, like it's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous.

3:16:52SpeakerLet's do a bong rip.

3:16:57SpeakerFucking bong rip. Everybody, all 800 viewers, load them. Let's do them. This is a very interesting conversation. So that's it. Long rip. Carry on. Thank you.

3:17:12Etienne FontanAmanda Scroker.

3:17:13SpeakerYou know, Tamara, I want to say I think you're right. There's a lot of quasi-chemists running around and not really knowing what it is that they're putting into the market, and I think it's fucked up. And I've always said it's buyer beware, but in some cases it's hard for the buyer to beware when they're eating edibles or they're hitting some vape pen and they don't really know the origin or manufacturer or anywhere it came from.

3:17:36SpeakerAnd I think there was a safety and margin that happened with cannabis for a long time because if you had a bud, you know, the bud was very telling, you know, and you could read it, so to speak. And when you have products like that we're seeing on the market now, people have no fucking way of knowing if there's concentrations of pesticides or there's concentrations of growth hormones from any of the nutrients that the grower used.

3:18:02SpeakerThey have no way of knowing really what's in that pen. You know, and unless they take it and independently test it somewhere that they somewhat trust, they're not going to know what was actually in the product they bought. And it's kind of a drag. I mean, and the BioBeware, even to my opinion, is greatly, it extends even to grass and hash, bubble hash, water hash, whatever you want to call it, non-solvent hash, I don't care, but look at the results that came out of the Emerald Cup.

3:18:29SpeakerWe saw... A ton of failures, you know, which were all really good stuff. No one stepped to the table and thoughtfully put moldy material into the contest. And it goes to show we don't know on a lot of levels, you know. Right, and that's why when we were talking last time when it was like, you know, don't discredit these growers, they've been doing all this stuff for a long time, and it's like, I'm not trying to discredit any growers.

3:18:57SpeakerYou know, I'm one of them, but it's like at the same time, You gotta know that like some of our best produce, I'm sure some of our best produce, I'm sure like we could go to Bubble Man's, you know, stash and pick out a bunch of stuff and maybe some of it would fail. And he's got like... Well, I've got a DNA kit that's showing up there, and I think that it would be really interesting to see if we could see if there was, you know, maybe some contamination in all of our things.

3:19:28SpeakerI know some of my shit's contaminated, you know. You know, you can't buy a loaf of bread without there being the contamination present that allows it to go moldy in a few days in the wrong environmental conditions, so. You know, we have these things all around us all the time. And I think, you know, in some cases you could even be said that it may have been the fault of handling post the grower or the person who, you know, handing it over.

3:19:57SpeakerBecause it can easily, you know, it's a vegetable material. It can pick things up. I think that's a little harder with hash or something that's solidified to any degree. But, you know, cannabis is still just a vegetable material. I mean, like lettuce or anything, it can Thank you for joining us.

3:20:43Etienne FontanThe European standards and the Dutch standards, do we have to look at then irradiating flowers and medicine and things like that too?

3:20:51SpeakerSo the Dutch standards are based on this insane, insane clause in their little European pharmacopoeia regulation that says there's a certain level of sterility that's required for inhaled medicines. So when you think in inhaled medicine, you're talking like You know, these things that people use for, yeah, like all this stuff. So, of course you want that to be sterile. It's a pharmaceutical product that's coming, that didn't come out of the ground.

3:21:18SpeakerIt came out of a factory. Directly injected into the lungs with a propellant. Right. So, because cannabis was, they were classifying as an inhaled medicine, it then fell under that clause and it became, you know, a very, very stringent regulation. The Canadian laws, for example, aren't that strict. So it goes to show that there's different levels where we can set the bar. Like we can decide, hey, this is the limit for, you know, contamination or for microbial presence or whatever.

3:21:52SpeakerBut all those things, they should be done based on like a factual scientific basis. Like there should be a reason that you're drawing the line in the sand here, right?

3:22:02Etienne FontanWell, they were the only ones originally to be drawn that line in the sand.

3:22:06SpeakerRight, and they aired on the side of Canada.

3:22:09Etienne FontanAnd hopefully in the future of the United States, we can get some sort of standardizations and alter that standard because until then, other countries are going to look to the Dutch standard because that's considered a successful medicinal distributive model. But I've gone through the entire system and seen it's tiny, it's small, it doesn't work good. And that just works for what works in another one going to work in Canada or the US.

3:22:32Etienne FontanSo it's still inherent that the standard we're trying to follow or standard nomenclature with aren't necessarily where we've learned from. The Dutch have these very Thank you for joining us.

3:23:14Etienne FontanYou know, conglomerate in your province so that you can get some requests out there to know exactly what is in your medicine to make it mandatory testing as opposed to, you know, it hopefully has to be tested. Because patients need to know, have to know.

3:23:31SpeakerPatients have the right to know. I mean, when you frame it in the context of patients, not recreation, and I mean even recreational people have the right to know, but really when you say patients, they have the right to know. And that's why I think that whole thing with these growers getting busted for putting pesticides or PGRs on their plants and entering the Emerald Cup, I mean, that's fucking pretty scummy, guys.

3:23:53SpeakerLike, seriously, fucking show some pride.

3:23:56Etienne FontanIt's showing others that there's a standard and there are testing and that's why people try to slide because they don't think people are really testing. They're like, oh, 400 and some odd samples, they're not going to test every single one. Okay, so that old school mentality still is pervasive and hopefully this will Start to instigate the reality that that's no longer going to be the case, that there are standards, that these laboratories will catch you.

3:24:20Etienne FontanAnd I'm glad that they were caught so that that precedence does set so that they realize that they can't fuck around in the future, that there are repercussions when they fall.

3:24:31SpeakerYeah. I hope they do. You know, I really do hope that they do. We'll see next year how many fewer pesticide fails there are. There should be none. That would be great to... I guess it's kind of like doping, though, in the Olympics, right? It's like some people are going to take whatever advantage they can.

3:24:50BubblemanTerrible. Well, there's already a meme with me dressed like a UPS guy in the Hash Church group.

3:25:00Etienne FontanI guess you always deliver church. What is it?

3:25:03BubblemanI don't know. Someone made a joke about me delivering packages for Tilray. I'm not sure how that's funny, but maybe because I took pictures there before. But the UPS outfit was pretty funny. I mean, they actually added the button-up shirt and the hat. It's worth a laugh or two.

3:25:21Etienne FontanLet me tell you. Well, it's good that you can laugh at yourself, sir, because it's pretty fucking funny.

3:25:26BubblemanI've been married for almost 25 years, so obviously I can laugh at myself. Please.

3:25:32Etienne FontanPlease. Do your kids just look at you and go, Dad, Dad?

3:25:38BubblemanI'm certain that they think I'm ridiculous on almost all levels. Do they call you Bubble Dad? They do not call me Bubble Dad, in fact. They do not call me Bubble Dad.

3:25:50SpeakerThat's reserved for you, Mark.

3:25:59Etienne FontanVery good, very good.

3:26:01BubblemanWell, I like the idea, Chimera. I'm starting that dialogue here in Vancouver and getting something going somehow, some way. Maybe even if it was like a special show that we did a Google Hangout on.

3:26:16Etienne FontanCan you have like a medical marijuana town hall where you get your medical people all together in a public forum and have that discussion openly? Can you guys do that in Canada?

3:26:28BubblemanOh yeah, I'm sure we could potentially rent the library or rent some space and have people come in and be a part of it.

3:26:37Etienne FontanI know this YouTube channel, this guy on Sunday does this thing on Sundays and they talk about pop. They could probably promote it.

3:26:46BubblemanOh, really? Tell me more. Yeah, this guy, Bubble Dad, I think is his name? The UPS guy? Yeah.

3:26:58Etienne FontanAlways delivers church on Sundays.

3:27:00BubblemanYes, we cannabis. Yes, we cannabis. I like it. I like it all. Hey, welcome D420K in the house.

3:27:08SpeakerThanks, buddy. I've been sitting here pretty big just taking it all in. There's so much interesting talk going on. I love it. I can just take it in and work out a bong rip once in a while and fucking get educated. I love it.

3:27:26BubblemanYep, it's a good thing. Just to answer someone in chat that says, do your friends call you Mr. Bubble? They do not. My friends don't call me Bubble anything. But I'll tell you, people that have a problem with me... We may now. People that have a problem with me have always come out and said, Bubble boy. And I don't know why, but maybe it's the energy behind it.

3:27:46BubblemanIt's just kind of like, it sort of seems negative.

3:27:50SpeakerThat's just a message. Are you sure you don't like that other one that you sometimes say? When I first heard the Bubble Boy and the Bubble Douche, I was like, God damn it. I didn't know what to say. I'm like, yeah, you see, anytime someone just shouts that out, it ruins everything. It has the power to always get everyone to rubberneck to the guy that says it.

3:28:15SpeakerYeah.

3:28:18SpeakerBubble Boy is an epic character on SpongeBob. For those of you who watch SpongeBob, everyone will know. It will rot your brain. SpongeBob? It will rot your brain, man. My kids watched it.

3:28:32BubblemanI just watched it just because... My kids watched it for a while, and I remember watching it at one point and going, okay, like, it was the first cartoon that made me feel old in the sense that I didn't understand it at all. It made no sense whatsoever. And I mean, I loved Ren and Stimpy and tons of whacked out acid-driven cartoons that were, you know, made by real psychedelic people.

3:28:54BubblemanAnd I'll tell you, that SpongeBob SquarePants, that shit is out there.

3:29:00SpeakerYeah, well, he likes ween. So, yeah, it automatically tells you he's out there, right, if he likes ween. Well, by the way, I'm going to bring you down some little bit of bubble hash. Well, not bubble hash. I mean some nice dry sift here. Just a little plate I made. Beautiful. What type of paper is that?

3:29:24BubblemanAnd aren't you worried about the chemicals in that paper plate seeping into your spores and giving you 12 different kinds of... No.

3:29:33SpeakerIf it gets me higher, I guess.

3:29:37Etienne FontanWhat genetic is that, sir?

3:29:40SpeakerThis is OG Kush. And... Is it real?

3:29:45Etienne FontanIs it indoor, outdoor?

3:29:49SpeakerIndoor. In dirt. And it's It's been cheering since last spring on my screens.

3:30:11SpeakerVery powerful.

3:30:15BubblemanI'm taking cinnamon bun breaks, consuming this incredible cinnamon bun that my wife brought in. Wow.

3:30:24BubblemanTime to have a little bit of ice water from the Bubble Man mug that my mother made me. Right on, Bubble Mom.

3:30:40BubblemanNice. For her bubble boy. For her bubble boy. Exactly. Now that bugged me.

3:30:47SpeakerThere's a positive. That's a positive. That's amazing.

3:30:50BubblemanThat's the first positive use of Bubble Boy that I've ever heard. Thank you, David.

3:30:57SpeakerI'm just going to say, it just reminded me, listening to the funny conversation there, I don't know if you remember this, Marcus, but you remember last year, I attended a couple of the days in the Supreme Court in the Allard case in town, and the Crown Prosecutor, I forget what his name was, but he was... He obviously thought he knew a lot about cannabis, but didn't know that much.

3:31:19SpeakerAnd when he was cross-examining one of the defendants, and I forget which one, I don't think it was Allard, it was one of the others, but he said to this gentleman, he said, how much do you use a day? And he says, what strain do you use? And the guy says, well, I use various ones. He said, well, from your testimony, it says you mostly use Ogg Kush.

3:31:39SpeakerAnd there was sort of all this laughter went around the public gallery, and John Conroy, the Queen's Counsel, who's obviously for the plaintiff, said, can I just confirm what you're talking about here is OG Kush, and this guy looks so stupid. And the judge said, can you explain what we're talking about? And he says, yes, my learned friend obviously doesn't understand what he's referring to as OG Kush.

3:32:03SpeakerIt's really called OG Kush. Please do identify it for him.

3:32:10BubblemanYeah, I had heard about this, and he got quite decimated, did he not? Oh, yeah, it was beautiful to see. Like that, the Ugg Kush was really just the beginning of it, wasn't it?

3:32:22SpeakerYeah, and then again with the, I mean, to watch the one that really, my favorite of the whole thing, I don't know if you heard, but when Todd Kane, who was the former head of the MMPR, yeah, former head of the MMPR program for Health Canada was on the stand, John Conroy was in full flight questioning him and said, can you explain to me, you know, he said, you've had the previous program running for the last 13 or 14 years, you know, you're telling us that this product has to be very carefully produced and why you don't want this grown at home, why it's so dangerous?

3:32:56SpeakerAnd he said, well, you know, it's a controlled substance. And he said, well, but people grow other products at home, what's the problem with this? He said, well, it's a controlled substance, it's dangerous, you know, we don't want it just being grown anywhere. And John Conroy said, well, what would be a similar product to, you know, that you would call it similar to? And he said, well, something like tobacco.

3:33:18SpeakerSo John Conroy said, well, what about people if they grow their own tobacco at home? And the guy said, Todd Kane said, no, that's not allowed. And John Conroy then paused brilliantly and then had the document sent over to the judge and to him to point out Now, it is the right within Canada for every adult to grow up to 15 kilograms of tobacco for personal use per year.

3:33:42SpeakerThis guy, it was part of his portfolio and he didn't even know it. It made him look so stupid. You could just feel the wheels shifting in the court. It was just beautiful to watch. This is why... I was saying to Mark that we really need to have this discussion continue because we can't just allow it to be the Canadian Association on Drug Abuse or the police force or whomever to have their input on the way it's going to be moving forward.

3:34:17SpeakerIt has to be an intelligent conversation by people that understand the topic. And decisions should be based on a rationed basis where you're looking at evidence. You're not just working by emotion. Yes, it's previously formed ideologies and people have been trained and you won't know, I come from 23 years in uniform, not law enforcement but military, you know, trained a certain way and there's a certain group thing that goes with that and it has to, I agree with you completely, it has to be, decisions have to be formed by science and reasonable basis, not based on previously held ideologies and I As Marcus was talking about earlier, one of the leaders on the portfolio in Canada is going to be Bill Blair, a retired police chief from Toronto.

3:35:06SpeakerAnd if we were doing the same with the end of the constraints on gay marriage, if we had someone who had been very, very anti-gay marriage and a real vocal proponent of it, would we then put them in charge of the portfolio going forward? It's a gentle, very delicate balance, but this has got to be done carefully, and we've got to make sure we have the voice at the table to make sure this is an informed decision.

3:35:33SpeakerYeah.

3:35:37SpeakerYeah. So how do we ensure that that happens? How do we ensure that the voice... Because, you know, I don't... I'm not going to mention any names, but there's been, you know, in the past in Canada, there's a sort of... How do I put this delicately... An activist class that really likes to dominate the discussion when these things come up in public. And as much as I respect the work that the activists have done in Canada, moving forward, a lot of these conversations can't be so...

3:36:13SpeakerThey have to be guided more on logical discussions of science and reasonable policy and rights, you know? Yeah, I think, I think I agree with you. Some of them, some of them are a bit too vocal and a bit too extreme. There's a, there's a number of them that Mark, you know, that Bubbleman knows well. But I think, I know, I know one who's, he's a, he's, he's been an outspoken proponent, but he says, As far as he's concerned, the battle has now moved to a new generation.

3:36:43SpeakerHe said, I've kept the conversation alive for the last 20 odd years, but he said now there's a generation that will be listened to because this guy has the wild hair and he looks the part of what people would like to dismiss as an advocate or as a stoner. Whereas that's not the reality of it for all the patients and for even people who want to use it recreationally.

3:37:06SpeakerSo I think it is the new generation that has to take that on and has to be willing to speak. Hopefully they're respected by both the old school advocates but also they'll be accepted by the new people as well who will say this person is speaking reasonably and has come from a credible position. I hope we can keep those people at the table.

3:37:28BubblemanAbsolutely. There's a lot of divide and conquer mentality in this discussion, in this issue. A lot of people don't really want to focus the energy on Health Canada. They want to focus it, you know, from the LPs camp, and not all LPs. There are people within that LP camp that understand that dispensaries are undermining their bottom dollar. And so you hear them make quotes that sound very terrible and are like, oh, the LPs are against dispensaries.

3:37:53BubblemanAnd you hear dispensaries come at LPs, generalize all of them and say, oh, they're trying to shut us down, they're the ones that want the business for themselves, and it's like, You guys are both being played by Health Canada. Focus your attention on Health Canada. You guys are both not the enemies. You're both people, groups of people trying to procure safe cannabis to dispense out to the people of Canada.

3:38:18BubblemanI support them both. I don't think anyone's doing a good enough job at this point where everyone's flush with inexpensive, high quality cannabis or concentrates or edible products. So then everything needs to keep trying, you know, leave it somewhat open for the marketplace to be more open source so that more people can play and more people can sort of evolve to rise to the top. The more that play, the better picking we'll have when the best rise to the top and the best will inevitably rise to the top, especially with... Go ahead.

3:38:58SpeakerThe problem is right now is that you have two sets of fields. One where you've got these MMR growers and other folks that aren't even MMR growers and they're just growing massive amounts of weed and all power to them and everything like that. I have no problem with them doing that. But it's that they don't have the same set of regulations as like a Tweed or a Bedrocan or a Canopy, whatever these guys are.

3:39:22SpeakerSo to the point where, like I said this before, but you know, Brent Zettel told me he was spending $10,000 $10,000 a month simply weighing and tracking the root balls that were coming out of their groves. In terms of when they cut down, they'd have to weigh the root balls just to make sure that the roots didn't get diverted. $10,000 a month. That's $120 a year. And so times however many LPs you have, there's all this money being wasted.

3:39:54SpeakerAnd the people that end up paying for that are the patients. Right? And it's just, so the regulations that are put on top of these, like if we move, you know, we're moving forward in regulation, they kind of back off on the MP, the LPs a little bit. Like it doesn't need to be growing weed in Fort Knox where you lay every grain of sand that comes in and every grain of sand that goes out.

3:40:14SpeakerIt's not like, I laughed when I think it was ATN said earlier about we're growing plutonium. But it's like, it's like that's the way they trade it, is that we're growing plutonium. And it's not. It's a safe natural substance.

3:40:28BubblemanYeah, well, I think, you know, that's why I've always felt that here in Canada they could just offer a different type of licensing, that if people understood that the LPs, because of the extremely high standards that they're forced to adhere to, would be a pharmaceutical-grade medicine, then maybe the dispensaries are still allowed to be involved, but, you know, they have to produce or they have to get their medicine from either You know, in-house MMR licenses or out-of-house MMR licenses with some level of testing.

3:41:00BubblemanLike, they have to obviously have some form of standards put upon them as well. Maybe not the same level as these multi-million dollar companies, but, you know, the only difference really would be then the profit margins. You know, the profit margins, I try to explain this to people all the time, like, the profit margins aren't based on prohibition anymore, i.e., like, you and I going to jail.

3:41:24BubblemanBut they're based on standards. So if something has a really high standard, it means that safety protocols have been put in place to make sure that that is going to be the best quality. You're not going to be ending up with some weird microbials in your final product if you're purchasing from a company that would protocol and recall all of that product if anything was found in any of them.

3:41:51BubblemanSo it's definitely a strong debate.

3:41:55SpeakerDid you see just this week in Washington there was an announcement that the price that had started in the 25 to 30 per gram range is now the average now across Washington is now 10 bucks a gram. I think that's going to continue to go a little bit lower but that's been good for a number of reasons. It's good for patients. The price should go way, way lower yet in reality I think but also the dispensaries player I agree with you, Bubble Man, as well.

3:42:25SpeakerThe dispensaries here in Vancouver play out this wholly the male approach. I don't see the LPs as all bad. They have a lot of punitive stuff and punitive restrictions placed on them by Health Canada that increase the cost of the patients. But if the dispensaries were that good and had that much interest in purely serving the patients, their price should be way lower because they don't have all these punitive restrictions on them.

3:42:48SpeakerWhy is their price not down at two and three bucks a gram? Yeah. I agree. Well, the thing is, it's still for-profit growers from the back end. Yep. I kind of like, I have to, you know, as much as I hate to, I have to side with the LPs on this one because it's like, it's not right that there's different levels of, like, so what, we're going to allow these dispensaries to operate in Vancouver, 100 dispensaries operate in Vancouver where they pull the weed out of God knows where.

3:43:21SpeakerAnd they sell it on the same medical system as the other LPs and they don't have any of the same restrictions and have to jump through the same hoops. It's kind of bullshit. I think it would be very interesting in Canada if Health Canada were a lot less punitive. Suddenly the LPs prices or their restraints would be a lot less. They could reduce the product for less than it is now.

3:43:44SpeakerSo let's call it around the 10 bucks a gram from an LP at the moment. But if they could suddenly start selling it for six bucks a gram, I think that would cause huge pressure to the dispensaries and see what happened to their prices. I think that would be reasonable. We have a proliferation of them in a couple of major cities in BC, but I think it would be really interesting to see what would happen to their pricing.

3:44:08SpeakerHow about this? Why don't we let the dispensaries, the LPs, take those thousands of kilos that are sitting in their vaults, and why can't they sell that to the dispensaries? I agree completely. If we're going to legitimize these dispensaries, then their supply chains that are producing medicine should be every bit as strict, or at least as far as medical cleanliness and outcome of the flowers that come out of the facilities.

3:44:35SpeakerI don't think that that's You know, man, I see like, listen, I see like dispensaries, there's cookies and caramels on the shelves that are made in like someone's kitchen at home. You can't, in Canada, you can't just go and make a bunch of food at your home and sell it in a store. If you're going to sell it, it has to be made in a commercial kitchen with three sinks.

3:44:55SpeakerThere's a whole bunch of regulations that need to be followed.

3:44:58BubblemanLike food safety protocols.

3:45:01SpeakerYeah, and it's not unreasonable to demand that. People, you know, I have these conversations with people in Vancouver, dispensaries, and everybody gets all up in a snit. It's like, listen guys, you don't have the special, like, take to make a bunch of money without repercussions to your actions, like every other business does in Canada, or North America for that matter. You know what, dare I say that the cannabis industry doesn't even know what it really wants yet, because it hasn't experienced products That were in a sense clean and consistent and regulated and trustable over and over and over again.

3:45:37SpeakerWe as a group have bounced around from providers and there's no way we haven't because no one's been allowed to stay going for that long of an amount of time to provide diversity. You know what I mean? There's no Nabisco with a bunch of different products that we can boycott because they use some chemical we're all aware of. Most of us are not aware of the chemicals or the products that are used in the gardens where the stuff is grown, no matter where it's grown, because we're simply not there.

3:46:05SpeakerCan I just bring this up to what we were talking about a second ago in context of the MMPR and these ridiculous regulations that the LPs and anybody that's going to enter the business has to follow, like these Safes that are worth millions of dollars with this huge thick wall with bank vaults. It's like, this is bullshit. You can lock down cannabis and make it safe without building a bank vault.

3:46:29SpeakerAnd it's like, A lot of these regulations that made it into the MMPR were there because they were written by the Harper government at the time. It was extremely right-wing and anti-cannabis, and they essentially said, fine, if you want to do this, we're going to make it as hard as possible for you. And that's just not a good way to go about designing a system. You know, you don't start from a punitive approach and say we're going to make a good system.

3:46:52SpeakerYou address the issues that are issues and you make it safe for everybody involved and then you let the industry flourish. Making growers weigh the root balls of crops that come out of a farm is fucking insane. It's just insane. You know, and so that's again in the context of why this conversation needs to develop rationally in Canada. Is that we're going to get the system that we allow to develop.

3:47:21SpeakerAnd if we don't say anything, then we're going to get a big shithole thrown at us, you know? Does anyone here, though, really think that, in a sense, like, this is where we're at during prohibition when everything was prohibited? So for a minute, do we not stop and think that if they take away the criminal element and they say, okay, we're not going to bust you for growing tomatoes or coconuts or whatever the fuck your weed is called, and they let you alone, Will these rules and all these regulations become de facto void because cannabis grows on trees in almost any climate and if it doesn't grow in the climate we pull it in our closet and we bust out flowers there.

3:48:00SpeakerAnd they're in this really screwy place. It's not like tobacco. It's not like tropical plants. It's not like a lot of things where unless you're in the area you're not going to pull a coconut tree off in your closet. But you're going to pull off a couple ounces of weed. You know, and I think this is going to devastate the market. And, you know, I think it's all going to be upside down really shortly.

3:48:21SpeakerOnce they say, bam, you're not going to jail, whatever, I think all the rules are fucking out the window. All these high taxes, people will avoid them. I mean, in a fucked up way, they'll grow tomatoes and I'll bring you over some tomatoes and you won't go down to the Whole Foods and get the tomatoes because I grew some. And their system will be circumvented in the most subtle ways.

3:48:41SpeakerI don't think they will. I think if you look at the closest comparison I see is, I think a couple of people have mentioned it, like the beer or the wine model. Most people, you know, people can make their own beer and wine at home, but most people, you know, choose, apart from the connoisseurs, most people buy their beer and wine in stores. David, I want to say this, and I've heard this before, but I don't think it's a good comparison.

3:49:06SpeakerI was a 13-year-old boy growing cannabis in my closet. For a year before my grandmother or anybody else in the house was aware of it. You can't do that with grapes. You can't make wine like we can grow cannabis. So it's really not a proper comparison and this is why as a grower I can say to you that it's not like wine. It's not like bathtub gin.

3:49:28SpeakerThat takes a little more... Preoccupation. You're talking about distillation. You're talking about fermentation. I'm talking about literally growing flowers. And you really got to put that in context because when you compare it to a refined, distilled, or manufacturing process, you're really on another planet at that point. We are literally florists. I agree, Todd. Todd, I accept what you say, but I would put a couple of things, caveats on that.

3:49:57SpeakerI think you're an exceptional person. I don't think most people would do that. I also think, I think some will do that, but I think the majority of people, if you ask them where they, where do they get their wine right now? The majority of people, some do make their own wine, but, you know, you take a bottle of wine to somebody's for dinner, or you want to, it's a special occasion, you go and buy it.

3:50:19SpeakerI'm not, I don't want to stop people growing their own, and I think they should be small amounts, and you're sure you're also always going to get the kid who's going to be, maybe not even growing it in the closet as effectively as you were, but they're still going to be trying to grow it out on a, You know, on a dirt patch somewhere out in the country, that's still going to happen.

3:50:34SpeakerI'm not going to deny that. But I think in the main, I think it'll be different. And I totally think there will be a great place for a store of cannabis. I honestly can't wait to the time when there are brand names and cannabis is cheap, cheap, cheap, and it can fall in the hands of everybody and we can all benefit from cannabinoids in our system. You know, I mean, we were over here scrutinizing the medicine because it didn't have enough cannabinoids in it.

3:51:00SpeakerIn our opinions, you know. So I think that there's going to be a big place for commercial cannabis in the future. I still think there's going to be boutique varieties because cannabis is unique in its crossings. And grandma down the street can have something that no one has. Not any store, not any Walmart, not anywhere. And she can pull it off just as she does it and it's in limited production every year.

3:51:22SpeakerJust like wine in a way. There's only so many cases available. But, you know, with grandma it's only so many ounces of butt. Yeah, no, I don't disagree with that.

3:51:31BubblemanI think what David said is likely, though, in the sense that it's just, it is a lot of work to try and grow, you know, for Grandma especially, to try and grow her meds for, say, a year. Say she just wanted to produce a single gram of resin for a day.

3:51:52Bubbleman365 grams of hash. Depending on where you live, there is a lot of work involved to produce that and to make sure that you're doing it well enough that you're able to produce a quality of resin. That's like a job.

3:52:06SpeakerYou know, can I bring something up, Mark, that you bring up that I think is really great? It's like if you're expecting to feed your family and grow corn for the following season, You're not expected to grow corn perpetually for the rest of your life. And the way that they are manufacturing these plant laws and limits around us, it's like, what are you doing, turning me into the perpetual gardener?

3:52:26SpeakerI can't do what normally humanity has done, which is grow through the season and then can and package or store through the winter and then do it again annually? Because that's kind of the way nature intended it to come into it. And we should, you know, if you do it that way, you're going to need a whole lot more plants if you're going to be growing for six of the months that you're not growing.

3:52:48SpeakerDo you get what I mean? Yeah, totally. So we've got to start fighting for equal rights on this on so many levels because it's irrational in here in our side of the border that people can stockpile bullets, stockpile assault weapons, and we're over here getting counted for the amount of flowers that I have in my basement. Seriously. It's so askew. It's not funny. It's a really, really interesting point, dude.

3:53:14CherylI wanted to make a comment on that. As a parent who has grown and had also grown for us, when it comes to, okay, you guys are talking about, well, the regulating of it to make sure that it's done right, there's incredible equipment out there for growing. There can be education series on that. I strongly believe that when it comes to the medical aspects of it and what is out there is that the government should be covering, you know how it covers all our other prescriptions and that.

3:53:57CherylSo it should, if you're getting it ready made from somewhere that it is tested, it is what you need, Then that should be covered. But I also believe that if I'm growing Haley's Medicine, that the equipment I use and the nutrients in that should also be covered under it. Because in the long run, it'll be cheaper for me to produce it myself for her and still get quality results as long as I'm using proper equipment and I've been educated on doing that.

3:54:30CherylIt's just my thoughts on that.

3:54:35BubblemanAnyone want to...

3:54:37SpeakerI think that sounds like a great future, and I'm just trying to get them not to prosecute us down here, but paying for our nutrients for our medicine would be an epic step forward. Someone in Nova Scotia had their grow equipment reimbursed from the Nova Scotia Health Administration, so definitely possible.

3:55:01BubblemanYeah, and Jonathan Zade is working on getting his cannabis paid for via insurance companies, which is also a huge step in all of this in that sense that when you really think of pharmaceutical industries, like those medicines are paid for by these companies, these insurance companies pay for Giant percentages of the pharmaceutical drugs that get purchased in America over the course of a year. And so being able to have cannabis entered into like at least the Canadian insurance, which is what he's been fighting for, is a pretty huge milestone as well.

3:55:41BubblemanI'm surprised it wasn't covered more and talked about more, but he's been on Hash Church and he's...

3:55:45SpeakerListen, in Holland they did this, they have private insurances, you have to choose your insurance company, but everybody has to have it, kind of quasi like the States, not really as much as Canada's. But one of the insurers... They started doing it. They started reimbursing the bedrocan varieties available from the pharmacy. And they quickly realized that for every dollar that they spent on the bedrocan herb, the costs associated with other medicines that they were already paying for also went way down.

3:56:17Etienne FontanHmm.

3:56:17SpeakerAnd so they were actually saving money by paying for cannabis. That's the way insurance companies operate. They're run by actuaries that do math. It's like you're saving more money doing it this way. That's what they're going to do.

3:56:32BubblemanThey do house math, you know, where the house always wins.

3:56:37SpeakerYeah, exactly. It's called actuarial sciences. I know a couple of them. They're really strange folks. They're nice, but yeah.

3:56:46BubblemanYeah, I'm sure they have a few of those guys working down in Vegas in the big casinos.

3:56:55SpeakerYeah, and many, many more types. And many more types indeed.

3:57:00BubblemanAnd I'll tell you, that was a pretty nice four-hour hash church right there, guys and gals. Pretty good, pretty good. Much appreciated there. For hours of Hash Church 68, we're getting close to episode 73. I really want to make episode 73 all about hash, water hash, dry sift, whatever, trying to get this hash episode together. Hopefully I'll be able to put a really nice hash panel together and we'll be able to discuss all things hash.

3:57:30SpeakerFor 73, you need to definitely collect the best heads, right? And just put them all there.

3:57:35BubblemanThat's what I'm saying, you know, for anyone that's used the bubble bags over a course of any amount of time, remembers the 73 bag, the gold bag, before the 93 bag. Gotta love the 73, man. It collects the headies. Anyway, I do want to thank all my guests today. Chimera, thanks again for coming in and sharing your vast knowledge. 420k, give thanks, brother. Always a pleasure. Mr. David Hutchinson, thanks for coming in, even though you're not feeling well under the weather, but still sharing your perspective with us.

3:58:09BubblemanMr. Etienne. And Cheryl Rose from the Hayley Rose Foundation. You can go check them out on their Facebook page and go give them some support. Thank you so much for coming and sharing as well. And as always, Mr. Horatio Delbert and Mr. Mark Scaldone laying it down for us, giving us the science. Dr. Mark Scaldone. Dr. Mark Scaldone.

3:58:33SpeakerYeah, I had to work hard for that. There it is. It's on the wall right up there. See you.

3:58:39BubblemanI want to thank UPS, my sponsor today for the show, and of course, Mr. Todd McCormick for always being a pleasure and sharing his perspective with us on Hash Church. Thank you guys so much for all the viewers, and we will see you next week. Mother Lovers. Mother Lovers. That'll take you out.

3:59:17BubblemanPeace out, all.