Cannabis Patents and Legal Rights

0:01BubblemanWell, hello everybody out there in Bubble Man's world. Welcome to episode 113 of Hash Church. Holy shit, that's pretty awesome. I'm feeling pretty good today. I'm just going to do my regular ritual here of sending out the goods. Make sure that I'm not getting any reverberation through any spots. All right, so let's do the Facebook invitation. Send that out to the majority of people. Boom. Send out the...

0:36BubblemanI hear something that I don't want to hear. I got to find out where it is because I can see. Where are you? Are you there? There you are. Excellent. All right. Let's get ATN here. Let's get this crew happening in here. Make sure we send out the Skypes. Make sure we send out the emails. Make sure we send out the Facebook messages. And yeah, there we go.

1:02BubblemanHopefully that'll all be good. Well, I hope everyone's doing good. Bad link. Oh, gosh. Here we go. Here we go. Oh, the link worked for Sam. Maybe not. All right. Well, we'll just get this happening. Bear with me, people. Bear with me. We got a bad link in the house.

1:24SpeakerHere we go. Let's try that link. Good morning, guys.

1:28BubblemanThere we go. Welcome, ATN. Welcome, Johnny B.,

1:32AtnJust heading on a plane, actually.

1:34BubblemanAnd welcome Hemp Time.

1:36Etienne FontanWhere are you going, John?

1:39AtnI'm heading to Maple Bay, and they're not telling me I've got to get off my cell phone, so I'm going to fly out of here, guys, and I'll join you on the other side.

1:48BubblemanHappy birthday tomorrow, Johnny.

1:50SpeakerThanks, guys. It's going to be a wicked birthday. Just my plane, and I'll see you guys soon.

1:54Etienne FontanSafe travels.

1:56BubblemanWell, I'm glad that link worked for you, Etienne. Yes, it is Johnny B's birthday tomorrow.

2:01SpeakerHe turns 45, so if any of you guys want to hit him up in his social media and give him some love, I'm sure he would appreciate such a thing.

2:08BubblemanHis girlfriend is flying him on a float plane to Vancouver Island somewhere, and he has no idea where he's going, so he's getting a beautiful kind of spa day with his girl today, and he's quite excited about it, as he should be. Hell yeah.

2:23Etienne FontanYou made it to 45. Is next better? He's looking much, much, much better, man. I'm so happy to, again, to see him every week. He just seems lighter and lighter on his feet and his spirit. You know, it's so great to see.

2:36BubblemanThat's true. I mean, it's been said before, but that's because it's totally true. Welcome back there, Skunk Man Sam. Not sure if your mic is working or your camera is working, but I guess the link's working, huh, Etienne?

2:49Etienne FontanYeah, initially when I tried it, it didn't go. It gave me an error. It gave me a Google 404 error, and I tried it again. It went through. The same one? Yeah, the same one. It did.

3:00SpeakerIt gave me three errors, Etienne.

3:04Etienne FontanOkay, so it wasn't just me.

3:05BubblemanWell, there's a new one in, too. You know what happens is sometimes I copy and paste the address out of the top bar. That's what I did today. I don't usually do that, but often I push the share button, and it puts a smaller link up, and it seems to be that that one always can be alive and working.

3:23Etienne FontanOh, there's Sam with his smile on.

3:27BubblemanSam's rocking to smile. I believe I sent the email as well this morning to Mowgli. Good. Pretty sure, I'm just going to triple check here, that I also made sure to send Chimera the link, which I did.

3:41SpeakerYou could also send Rob Clark the link. I have no idea if he's available.

3:47BubblemanYeah, he sent me an email. I think he wants to come in. I'll send it to him anyway. He booked for next week to come in and do a little...

3:57SpeakerRap about turkey?

3:58BubblemanYeah, exactly, yeah.

4:01SpeakerThat would be really nice. He's doing great work there.

4:04Etienne FontanAnd very apt, too, because it's Thanksgiving week, so having turkey on Thanksgiving week just seems apropos. Right?

4:15SpeakerThat's it right there. I would agree. In fact, when I was traveling the first time to India in 1971 in a VW van, we were in Turkey, on Turkey, So I had, unfortunately, a steak.

4:32Etienne FontanWell, an odd thing. 20 years ago this week was the High Times Cannabis Cup, and we all were there together. Actually, Sam, you and I met over at...

4:47Etienne FontanOh, Positronics. You were visiting with old Ed, and of course, I ran into you, Mr. Bubble Man, many times over at the Milk Veg, when it was, not just the Milk Veg, what was the Pax Party House?

5:02SpeakerAh, yes, the Pax. Pax Party House was my favorite venue for a cup. It got too crowded towards the end, but I just liked the vibe of being in the same building right next to the police station and being so friendly to us.

5:18Etienne FontanWell, and everybody was being respectful, even though it was mad puff fest inside. People kept it, you know, indoors for the most part. I only heard of like a couple incidents where people were being Americans outside. But for the most part, everybody was respectful. And that was, again, that was a giggle to every time go by there and walk and see, oh, we're right next to the police station.

5:38SpeakerHmm.

5:40Etienne FontanThat's ballsy.

5:42SpeakerYou remember the buses that they used to take around? Yeah, yeah.

5:46AtnAll the coffee shops.

5:47SpeakerAnd my daughter was one of the bus babes. She was Maya the bus babe.

5:53BubblemanI remember Maya the bus babe.

5:55Etienne FontanSo basically people, it was a bus from high times that went around to certain coffee shops. So you got on this bus and it went to certain coffee shops so you could go sample them and it would also give you a ride back to the PAX party house. So you had a place to start as well as to come back to.

6:12SpeakerAnd you had a guide on the way who was fluent in Dutch, English, French, and German.

6:19Etienne FontanRight, and it was basically a tour bus the whole time where they were giving you understandings of what's here, what's there, you know, this is a great place to get some great, you know, Thai food, et cetera, et cetera. Welcome, Mowgli.

6:33BubblemanYes, welcome, Mowgli. I'm glad that the link worked out today. It's funny that just today of all days that people are having a hell of a time getting these links to work, so hopefully persistence will pay off, and much like Mowgli just did, it will continue to click that button and come on.

6:48SpeakerI think only the worthy will make it past the software.

6:52BubblemanAh, yes, only the worthy. I like that.

6:57SpeakerOnly the persistent.

6:58BubblemanOh, what's that, Mowgli?

7:01SpeakerI said only the persistent.

7:03BubblemanYes.

7:04Etienne FontanThat's a strange looking bong, Mowgli. They almost look like a coffee cup.

7:09SpeakerIt's a multifunctional dab rig. It has coffee and everything else you might want.

7:15BubblemanYou know, they actually make those, those little dabatinos.

7:18Etienne FontanReally?

7:19BubblemanYeah, yeah, really. I think Johnny B has one actually, a little coffee cup that is also a pipe.

7:25Etienne FontanYeah, you suck through the actual handle and there's a bowl attached on the side of the cup and you can actually hit the bowl and then drink your coffee at the same time. That is inherently worthwhile. It's amazing. Cannabis multitaskers. I mean, you've got to love the creativity of the cannabis person and all the things that we have had to and had to come from. Now, what's interesting is you bring up Dabicino Bubble Man, which brings up something I don't think we've discussed, which was recently there was a case brought forth by a designer, As well as Hitman Glass regarding Starbucks Cups.

8:07Etienne FontanAnd they were awarded over $400,000. Now, I understand the suit currently against Hitman is ongoing or hasn't been settled at this time, but... It was over $400,000 Starbucks actually sued the creator for direct infringement off the cup of the Starbucks. So if you're out there and you're being cannabis-related, be creative. Don't go taking corporate ideas because as you can see, it can cost you literally everything.

8:40BubblemanYeah, and that guy apparently didn't show up for court.

8:42Etienne FontanThat was the most amazing thing is that he never showed up and nor did he ever try to impede the course. He could have staved off some of the damages but instead incurred 400,000 plus in damages.

8:55BubblemanAnd I just want to reiterate that we are not talking about Douglas right now. Everyone thinks it's Dougie that didn't show up for court. Dougie's involved in a different case. The one we're talking about I guess maybe is the guy who came up with the design and Doug just facilitated having it made. I'm not exactly sure.

9:11Etienne FontanI think Doug had it on his site, and so by promoting it, he was promoting this product, or is the view of the court. And so the people who actually created Evil Glass, I do believe, E-V-O-L Glass, is the actual creator of the... But it was rather surprising that Starbucks, one, lawyered up so fast, two, that the guy didn't lawyer up against it or try to protect himself or stave off some of the steepness of the damages.

9:40SpeakerHow do you do it, though? It was so blatant copy. How do you stave off damages when you're...

9:47BubblemanOne of the things about it and ripping people off and like all of this sort of patent things is that people just don't believe it's possible. They're like, no, no, no, there's no way that they can own that. I'm just going to do it. And then they find themselves in a court case and they realize, oh shit, like you can actually trademark and patent and like, Create this ownership of intellectual property to the point where, yeah, people will sue you, just like Etienne said, for everything you have.

10:14BubblemanThat's a rough... Navigate carefully out there is what I will say.

10:20SpeakerI don't think I've ever told you before, but I actually inserted genetic letters into all of my varieties. For example, skunk number one says SK1 over and over in the junk DNA. So... If you see any out there that's got it, let me know, Mowgli, because they owe me big bucks. Yeah, no, we've developed a specific assay to identify the repeating SK1 sequence, and we just send all those people straight to you.

10:51SpeakerThank you very much. People think you guys are serious. Way to plan ahead. Yeah, people are going to think you're serious. I mean, I mean.

11:00BubblemanYou can see it in all of your faces as Sam was telling his joke and how each one was slowly getting it.

11:06SpeakerAnybody who believes that deserves to believe it.

11:11Etienne FontanI was going to say, man, Skunk Man, your advancement in science was literally light years ahead of everybody else in its pre-concept.

11:19SpeakerHe was genetically modifying cannabis before we could even genetically modify anything. That's how much he planned ahead.

11:26Etienne FontanSam, you're a great man.

11:29SpeakerWell, I can tell you a funny story. I gave free skunk seeds to George Weblin, who did some DNA research, and their group, I'm not sure if it was with McKernan or not, discovered that skunk number one has CBD synthase genes, but they... They don't work. They're defective. So it's really difficult for skunk to produce any CBD because the CBD synthase gene is unfunctional.

12:06Etienne FontanSo it has a precursor. It just doesn't activate it.

12:08SpeakerYeah. So when they told me that, I told them, oh, yeah, well, I put that in there on purpose. And at first, for a second, they believed me.

12:19BubblemanWell, I bet you it was subconscious even. Your absolute, like, not stoke for CBD just created that non-working... Synthase.

12:30SpeakerI like to think so, but I'm not sure I'm that great, but you're right. You could have easily selected for a dead synthase, you know, as you were developing stuff. That could have easily happened. You know, I actually think that because of all the synthase duplications, we're going to find that there's lots and lots of copies of both synthase genes in many plants. And it's actually hard to figure out which ones are working and which ones aren't just by looking at the genome.

12:57SpeakerSo it's going to be confusing unless we have a functional assay, you know, like smoking it and seeing what's in it. Can I ask what does the fact that these varieties have been traded in public domain for decades mean to anybody that thinks they have any type of legal rights to breed, you know, two varieties that have been open domain for decades together and call it theirs?

13:24SpeakerYeah. Can I, let me speak to that for a little bit because this shit is so complicated that people are having a really hard time wrapping their heads around it. And it took us a long time to wrap our heads around it too. So let me just back up for a second. So we, when we first started the open cannabis project and we figured that we could use all this data to as, as proof of prior art, um, As evidence that all the stuff around now has been around for a long time, we thought that that would just be universally appreciated, right?

14:00SpeakerWe thought everyone would figure, well, that might do something to stop patenting, and so it's probably a good thing. And the biggest surprise we got was all the pushback that we received, especially in Northern California, where everyone was, they were terrified of patenting, right? But they were more terrified of making their stuff open. Because they wanted to patent their stuff. I mean, so there's this weird tension in the community, right?

14:27SpeakerPeople are afraid of companies patenting stuff. But breeders never really got paid very well, many of them, for all the amazing work they did. And they want to protect their stuff. And so lots of people, when you talk to them, they don't want a gene to take their stuff and have it dumped into the public domain, the sequence. They want to keep it private because they think they might be able to get a patent.

14:51SpeakerAnd the thing that was hard to communicate to people was that if you've been selling your plant for years, you cannot get a patent on it. It belongs to everybody now. That's just how it works. You know, I totally think that's obvious to me, at least. I mean, I think a lot of people that have been in the industry, you know, 10, even 20 years. I mean, if you're working with plants that you've got in the last two decades, you're working off of the work of people like Sam.

15:17SpeakerAnd others that have been breeding long before you ever got into the business. And I just don't see how they're going to come along and lay claim, you know, to these varieties that have been floating around Europe and North America in some varying degree for decades, since the 80s in some degree. Well, there is a way to lay claim to it. There is a way for people to patent that old stuff.

15:41SpeakerAnd the way you do it is that, or the fear that we had is that You take something old, you rename it, and you submit it to the USPTO. And the USPTO has no record of prior art. Because there's so little evidence out there about this plant, you can do the biopiracy thing. You can submit it, pretend it's something else, pretend you just made it. And so in theory, That could happen.

16:06SpeakerI mean, you have to lie and cheat and steal to do that, but it's possible.

16:10Etienne FontanBut won't you get caught as well because it's going to be gene mapped eventually.

16:14SpeakerBefore we jump that point, though, you would have to lie and cheat and steal to the United States government because right now they won't let you trademark anything that's going to be used on a cannabis product. And good luck trying to find a patent attorney who doesn't want to lose their license to do that. Well, the point is right now, how are you going to get the same government that will not allow you to trademark even Snoop Dream on a bud on a variety of cannabis?

16:42SpeakerHow are any of these, you know, patent people going to stand up in court that doesn't respect them? Let me just clear up the thing between trademarks and patents, right? In U.S. patent law, there's a line that says something about vice, right? And it's been interpreted to mean that federal trademarks will not be available for cannabis products. And that has generally been true. There's a workaround that a few companies have done.

17:06SpeakerBut basically because of that language, you can't get federal trademarks on cannabis-related products. However, that line does not exist in the patent law.

17:15AtnNo, USPTO is recognizing cannabis patents, folks, so that argument really doesn't hold any water. Yep.

17:23SpeakerI mean, you can get patents. You can't get trademarks.

17:27AtnThe USPTO and the Trademark Office are different entities. They're not the same department.

17:32SpeakerThey are, but you're still going to have to go in front of a federal judge, which is in the same judicial branch that has been dissing us all for decades. So I would like to see one of these patents.

17:40AtnYeah, but you can have a patent on something without having to be in possession of the plant or the marijuana in these states. You have to be able to defend it.

17:49SpeakerMy point is you can have the patent, but you've got to go in and be able to defend it in front of one of these bigoted... Thank you for joining us.

18:15AtnYou can, right? You can.

18:18SpeakerCan you guys refer me to any case that has stood up? That any one case in cannabis with a cannabis patent where a federal court in the United States has stood up and said, yes, this party is the owner of this patent over this party. Is there one case that you can refer me to? No, but that's very new, Todd. So let me tell you what the plant patent lawyer that I talked to told me about this.

18:43SpeakerWhat he told me is that... Judges who hear patent cases, and first of all, plant patent cases are very rarely litigated, so there's not a lot of case law, unfortunately. But judges who hear patent cases in the U.S. are very, very motivated to protect patent law and to protect the interests of businesses that have patents. And so his sense, in the sense of every lawyer I've talked to about this, is that they're going to stand up for the patent law.

19:11SpeakerThey're not going to care that it's about cannabis. They're going to defend the patent if the patent is valid under normal plant patent law.

19:19AtnRight, based on the law, not based on anything to do with the fact that it's cannabis.

19:24SpeakerRight. Our whole court system is based on case law, though, in all reality. And without any case law, you're just basically putting forward opinion.

19:34AtnNo, that's not true. Show me one cannabis, not trying to be a dick.

19:39SpeakerShow me one case where this is true.

19:40AtnThat's not the point. You're talking about like... New ground. They're not going to rewrite patent law for cannabis. It doesn't make any sense to do that. It's going to be interpreted... Not to be weird.

19:50SpeakerThey have exempted us from every other right, bro. They've rewritten every single state rights law. They have come against us in every way they could. So show me one case where they're going to back up what you're saying.

20:00AtnListen, Todd, I don't want to call you out on the public channel, but honestly, dude, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to plant rights or...

20:09SpeakerAll I'm asking for is any one case law, and all I'm saying is show me one case where what you're saying has been set up. It's a red herring.

20:18AtnIt is a red herring over an argument because we live in a post-prohibition world where cannabis was kept out of this whole set of systems for the last 70 years. So we can't show you a case because they don't exist. But that's my point, and I agree with what you just said.

20:37SpeakerTodd, the patents are brand new. There's no case law because nobody's taken these patents to court yet.

20:44Etienne FontanThey will. It will come. Okay, then let's continue my thought then. If these are patented, somebody goes and patents it, okay? And then... Wait, wait, wait a second. An attempt at patenting, okay? And how does their proof that there is these cannabis are in the public domain? So how does somebody not take some Sam's skunk, go run with it, try to patent it, Okay, let's just say they attempt at patenting it.

21:15Etienne FontanAt what point does somebody present the genetic to say, hey, this is in the public domain? Is it in the prosecutor for the federal government's situation? Does somebody on the outside have to bring that suit in to challenge it, such as does Stanton have to challenge skunk when it appears, or have to keep an eye on every genetic string that comes out?

21:35SpeakerHere's how it works, right? So when you submit a patent, The patent examiner is obligated to look for prior art. So they get the patent application and then they have to dig around and see if there's any prior art.

21:49AtnMagli, can you just publicly say what prior art is then? So people understand.

21:55SpeakerSo if you invent something, right, you invent like a new machine, the patent examiner gets it and then they have to look around in the history of other patents and then in the history of other Commerce and say, has any, has a machine like this ever existed? And they have to look everywhere. Does this exist on the market or not? Right. And that's prior art. It doesn't have to be patented, but if something has been released into the market or patented, it's prior art.

22:22SpeakerAnd if prior art exists, you can't get a patent on it. The problem is when you come to a field where there's no record of prior art. Okay, there's one other aspect, there's one other aspect, and that is that based on what is known in the prior art, is someone who's suitably skilled in the prior art able to put that invention together, then it could be deemed obvious and not an invention at all.

22:50AtnRight, anyway, the point that I was going to say is that Prior art is defined by the knowledge that's available in the public domain. So that includes everything from scientific journals to trade publications or papers or anything that you can demonstrate. So right now in cannabis, one of the reasons that a lot of these varieties aren't recognized is because they're not described. And to describe a variety, it's usually done in terms of physical characteristics, but it can also be done in terms of chemical composition of the plant.

23:23AtnAnd unfortunately right now that's not the way that people are looking at these plants. They're saying, oh, it tastes like pineapple or it's high in THC and it really fucks you up. And that's not the way that we look at plants in the real world. You know, in the real plant variety development world.

23:40SpeakerIt's a sativa. It's an indica. It's a ruderalis. Right.

23:44AtnWell, those are all terms that don't mean anything, right? So when you start looking at, for example, you know, here, I can actually do a screen share. I'll pull up the media via paper.

24:00BubblemanI love all the intensity of you guys, by the way. I love the intensity of the conversation. I know where Todd's coming from. I see where Mowgli and Chimera's coming from. I myself spent eight years in a patent lawsuit. Have any of you done that? Because it was about the cannabis product. And guess what? It never got thrown out because it was about cannabis. It kept on sailing right through.

24:24SpeakerPeople would talk to me.

24:27BubblemanThey knew themselves what was going on. And I was like, well, guess what? It's not your business on the... Thank you for watching.

24:53SpeakerNo, I want to say this though. I always thought Canada is a little more intelligent than our federal court system, a lot less conservative in some ways. And the second thing I was going to say is that, Ryan, is what you're saying that basically because of all this previous information that there is enough information and open source that anyone will be able to challenge These future combinations.

25:20SpeakerIt's obvious. Obvious. Obvious. Not an invention.

25:23AtnWhat I'm saying is, if you can make plant inventions, it's a ridiculous statement that they're not inventions. They are inventions. But what I'm saying is, the public domain, all the information that's in the public domain defines the norm. Okay? It defines what exists. And so if you can show something that you have something that doesn't exist in the public domain and that it hasn't existed before, then you can start making claims as to we invented this or we made something.

25:56SpeakerWell, look at the question. Is using the word invention a little loose considering we're only talking about, does a mother and father invent a baby? Yes.

26:08AtnListen, I was sitting at the ICRS like three years ago, and people were talking about a specific cannabinoid profile, and I realized that I could create a variety with that cannabinoid profile, but also had a unique terpene profile that didn't exist, and you couldn't find that variety somewhere else.

26:28SpeakerThen keep it as a trade secret.

26:30AtnDon't waste your money following the pattern on it. No, the point is that there was that aha moment. Right? It was an invention. It was something that had never been considered before.

26:39SpeakerYou can't keep it as a trade secret if you release it to the public. If you're allowing the public to use it, then all they got to do is freaking analyze it, and they can see exactly what Chimera saw three years ago. Sure, like a can of Coca-Cola.

26:54Etienne FontanSo will the burden of proof be on you to prove it or will the patent office then go out and find all these other genetics to actually compare them to?

27:05AtnNo, they don't have to look at the genetics, they just have to look at the information that says it's around. And so that's kind of what's happened, that these patents have slipped in in the absence of knowledge about what exists in the market.

27:21SpeakerThat's bullshit.

27:22AtnWell, it's the way it is.

27:24SpeakerNo, how about Roger Adams' patents back in the 40s, right? This was before Schedule I, before the Controlled Dangerous Substance Act. He patented new compounds derived from cannabis plant. The patent office doesn't give a shit where they come from. If you make a new composition of matter, you make a new composition of matter. It's an invention. Yeah, that's it. That's it. The question is, is it obvious?

27:47SpeakerAnd a patent is only as good as it'll hold up in an infringement case against it. So you're going to spend all this money, and believe me, the lawyers want you to spend the money filing all these patents. But at the end of the day, are they really going to hold up in an infringement case? Good luck on trying to enforce a plant variety patent in this industry.

28:07AtnWell, there's no such thing as a plant variety patent. There's plant variety protection. And there's all of our protection, but those are not patents. So, you know, we got to not confuse the difference.

28:18SpeakerI thought you were talking about patenting a plant itself, but patenting a variety. Is that what you're talking about?

28:27AtnWell, there's different, as Magli said last week, there's, or two weeks ago, whatever it was, there's different forms of IP protection for plants. If you have a plant that you've bred and it breeds true from seed and you can plant it from seed, And let it grow up and mate within itself and then plant those seeds again the next year and it's the same, then that's called a variety.

28:47AtnAnd you can get what's called plant variety protection for that. And then you can get, you know, that allows you to do a whole bunch of different things with contracts and you can license the use of these varieties, you can stop other people from growing them without... But can I ask you this?

29:05SpeakerThey would have to specifically grow your clone in order to violate your patent. If somebody comes along and takes together just train wreck and sour diesel mixes it together, they're not going to be able to say that they have an ownership on sour diesel cuttings and if your dispensary is growing and selling sour diesel because they don't Thanks for watching.

29:43BubblemanAnd Chimera's talking about like professional seed breeding where you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and breed specific traits into plants. And there is, that's a very different thing than just trying to like, that's what I mean though.

29:55SpeakerBecause in that situation, they wouldn't get their hands on the Jack Daniels recipe no matter what.

30:00AtnOkay, wait a second. Let's educate ourselves before we just start talking a bunch of shit that we don't know anything about.

30:07SpeakerNo, I'm asking you a question, Ryan. Stop being so rude. You really are. I'm trying to get the information out of you about you yelling at me or stepping over me because I don't understand it.

30:17AtnTodd, you're ignorant in the classic sense of the word in that you don't know, okay? So let me educate you and stop beaking for a moment and let me educate you for a little bit. Really? Really, Ryan?

30:30SpeakerYeah.

30:33SpeakerGod, what the fuck? Did you not smoke weed this morning? Really?

30:36BubblemanTake a deep breath, guys. We want to get this conversation out. We want everyone to be heard. We don't want to get into personal...

30:44SpeakerListen, listen, you guys. There we go. Can I just back up and try to clarify for a second? Please do. There was a lot of confusion. Let's forget about the subtleties about plant variety protection versus plant patents for a second. There are three different kinds of... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

31:30SpeakerNow a lot of the community doesn't realize you can get plant patents on cannabis. You can. And there is a lot of evidence that the USPTO doesn't give a shit about the fact that it's cannabis. There's a lot of evidence. There's not a lot of case law, but there's a lot of evidence and the general legal opinion is that those patents will hold up in court.

31:52AtnWe don't know whether they will, but they haven't been tested.

31:55SpeakerYeah, we don't know, but you can probably get cannabis patents. I would assume their claims are very, very broad. But I'll be the first one to admit, I am not a plant patent expert. I probably know as much about plant registration as anybody else. In fact, probably more than anybody else. But patents are, you know, I never had a real interest in patents. But look, so look, there's a distinction in patents that I just want you guys all to think about, right?

32:31SpeakerSo we've been reading a lot about the history of patents and trying to figure out, you know, when we were talking to people in the industry about making their data open and we got all this pushback from people who didn't want to make their data open, You know, we started to feel trapped between this idea of big companies that are going to come in and patent too much stuff and then little breeders who also want to protect their stuff and who maybe should have a right to.

32:58SpeakerAnd we came to the conclusion that there's good IP protection and there's bad IP protection. That was finally where we wound up. You know, there's limited patents that protect one single thing that an inventor made Thank you.

33:47SpeakerSo we came to the conclusion that all of the, we want to encourage, like for us, our biggest goal is encouraging and preserving the diversity of this plant, right? So we want breeders to breed. We want all of the diversity that's around to be accessible and available. We don't want companies to come in and engage in traditional agriculture practices, which are, which tend towards monoculture. We want all the stuff that's around to be available to people.

34:14SpeakerWe want new stuff to emerge. I mean, this is what has to happen, right? But there's forms of IP that discourage innovation and put things in the hands of wealthy corporations who can afford very expensive patents. So the distinction that matters to us right now is between very limited plant patents or breeders' rights that protect one individual plant variety that a breeder actually made And very, very broad, expensive patents that cover entire categories of plants.

34:45SpeakerNow, to our mind, that's the kind of IP protection that kills innovation. It favors big corporations who can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to file for patents. And it covers whole Thank you. Thank you.

35:29SpeakerYou are partially correct about that. Putting a lot of genomic data in the public domain is not going to be useful to a patent examiner who is searching for prior art. It will be useful for patent challenges, however. What you need is the terpene and cannabinoid profiles and possibly other things. That's what would really change it. Right. So right now we need to get as much chemical data in the public domain as well.

35:55SpeakerThe genetic data will help, but it's true that because patents are being filed with chemical data, we need a lot of chemical data in the public domain.

36:03AtnCan I show some chemical data just so that people can understand what is the public domain, what is the norm, what is... You know, rare and then therefore like not the public domain and therefore maybe patentable. I don't know if you guys can see my screen or not because I'm screen sharing.

36:23SpeakerYes, we can see it.

36:24AtnThis is a study called Essential Oil of Cannabis Sativa Strange by Vito Medavia and Simon Steinman that was published in the International Hemp Association Journal. You can look at it online. You'll find it pretty quickly. But what they did is they grew a bunch of different varieties, and here they are right here. You can see most of them are hemp varieties, but there are a couple of drug strains at the bottom.

36:48AtnAnd these were grown in Switzerland in populations, in family populations, and then they were harvested, and they had the essential oils extracted. And the essential oils, the terpenes, were then subject to GC analysis, and they got fingerprints from them, okay? So... If you look at these and you pull up a study or somebody can do it later on, but you can see that in almost every case, myrcene is the dominant terpene.

37:16AtnOkay? So that's a pretty standard chemical signature for cannabis. Most cannabis varieties that you look at have myrcene occurring as the most prominent terpene. Okay? There's more myrcene than there are Any other terpenes in the variety. So that's kind of like your standard, in genetics, what they call the wild type. And the wild type essentially is the most, it's really the most common occurrence of a given trait.

37:48SpeakerHey, Mara, I'm sure you understand perfectly well that the plants they used in that study were a limited selection, right? No, these were families.

37:58AtnSo it's unfortunately, it's weighted. Thank you so much for joining us.

38:18SpeakerI think we're all aware that it's very likely that there are some plants out there that are non-myrcene dominant.

38:25AtnNo, absolutely. I'm not claiming that they're not myrcene dominant, but the patent that we're all referring to specifically references non-myrcene dominant varieties that are higher than, what is it, 2% or 3% CBD by weight or CBD acid by weight. So it's a type 2 plant that has THC and CBD but is non-myrcene dominant. And if you actually do look at the public domain and all the information that's in the public domain, you look at Betty All and the Bedrocan varieties that are type 2 and all the other type 2 varieties that you can find before the filing of the patent, and they're all myrcene dominant.

39:07SpeakerRight, but we also all know that there's incredibly poor documentation of what has been out there.

39:14AtnRight, and so that's really the question is, does the USPTO let prohibition create a unique situation for cannabis where it's essentially, you know, it's the forbidden zone that nobody can go and stake claims and all of a sudden the gold rush begins and everybody just runs out and starts saying, hey, this is mine.

39:34SpeakerWell, the results from this study show myrcene dominance that's clearer from the data, but there's studies that predate this that don't show myrcene dominance at all.

39:44AtnYou've got to remember, you've got to take in context that each A, B, C, D, whatever, they represent a variety, and those varieties were grown from seed. They weren't grown from clone. So there's, you know, you have all that inter-variety variations and that's what we do when we're growing seeds and selecting mother plants or we're selecting clones to be mother plants is we're looking within that variation within the seed family and we're selecting individuals that are different and, you know, part of what we do in that is we select individuals that have different terpene combinations.

40:17AtnAnd, you know, in our pursuit to always look for something new and different, we start selecting, if myrcene is the norm, we start selecting away from the norm and trying to find other smells that are pleasant.

40:29SpeakerMyrcene perhaps is the norm in this study, but there's work that predates this, very careful analytical work that shows that myrcene is not necessarily dominant in all strains of cannabis.

40:40AtnNo, you're talking, but if you go back and you look more carefully, Mark, you'll notice that all those varieties are type 1. Those are THC dominant plants. Okay? So you won't go back in the literature or anywhere pretty much and find a type 2 plant that is non-myrcene dominant. But screw the literature. There's no literature. Well, there's some literature, and if you take the combined literature all together...

41:08SpeakerThere's lots of literature, man. I don't know where you guys are. There's lots of literature on cannabis, man.

41:12AtnNo, but Mark, we're again specifically talking about type 2 cannabis varieties that have a mix of CBD and THC and have a documented terpene profile. And if you actually scour the literature, no, but listen, just listen to what I'm saying. If you actually scour the literature and you try to find type 2 plants, you'll see that anything that has a published terpene profile is mere scene dominant.

41:38SpeakerI disagree. I actually have the literature to show you. I'll pull up the paper in just a second. Hold on. What's the name of the study? Go ahead.

41:51SpeakerHold on, I have to pull up the paper. I asked what's the name of the study? I have it too.

41:59SpeakerListen, you guys, there's two questions. If there is literature showing type 2 plants that have almost no myrcene, then that could form the basis of a legal challenge to the patent we're talking about. But it may be that there is no literature like that, and there's still plants like that out there. It might be that there's no plants like that out there. That's possible too. The real question on my mind is not whether or not we can find a type two plant without myrcene that predates, it has to predate 2012.

42:32SpeakerThat's an important question, but that's not the most important question. The most important question is if we're going to let big, broad patents like this Block up every area of cannabis in the next few years. There are patents coming down the line that are going to cover all the variants. They're going to cover all the CBC plants. They're going to belong to people who can spend that much money on patents.

42:53SpeakerAnd they're going to be a big problem for the industry.

42:57SpeakerThat doesn't mean they're not legal. They are legal.

43:02BubblemanWell, I mean, only time will really tell. Tamara, you're muted. What's that?

43:07AtnI was just saying that the Varin patent, the propyl cannabinoid patent was published. And I believe it's been granted, but I'm not sure on that. But if you actually go and look at the variety again, you start looking at the varieties listed in these patents, sure, propyl plants, plants that produce propyl cannabinoids exist. But if you look at them, they don't really exist above 2% of the total dry weight.

43:33AtnThat's right.

43:34SpeakerSo you could get a totally legal patent on any plant That have more than 2% of the propyl cannabinoids. You absolutely could get a legal patent on that. There's no question about that. The problem is that it's fucked up. Because it's such a broad patent that it's going to kill innovation in this industry and put entire categories in the hands of single companies. That's not a good way for this industry to move forward.

43:58SpeakerNo, you know, one of the things I was really... No, but that's the system that... Brian, can you let somebody else say anything without being rude, really? Can I just say something? Enlighten us, Todd. No, it's actually not directed towards you. It's towards Mongli, and it's what he said earlier, that what he's trying to do is create enough of this information so it doesn't stifle ongoing... The ongoing industry.

44:21SpeakerAnd I just want to say that's really a good thing to hear you say because a lot of us are wondering what is going to happen because there are a lot of cowboys in the hills all over the world that are trying to bring together other people's work and say it's theirs and then block other people from being able to use it. So what you're doing to me is very important and I'm glad you're doing it.

44:44SpeakerThanks. But look, I mean, it's just really complicated. And Chimera is right that what we're doing is a tiny piece of it. And even if we can dump as much data as we possibly can into the public domain, it's still going to be very difficult to block these patents. It's going to be difficult. I mean, what if, you know, all we can do is block patenting of stuff that already exists.

45:09SpeakerThere's still a huge problem with getting patents on stuff that doesn't already exist, but then someone locks up the entire category and there was nothing we could do about it because there was no prior art, but it's still a shitty thing to have someone patent there's some new category of cannabis and then one big company owns the entire category. I mean, I'm okay if the Cowboys in the Hills make a new variety and they want to patent that one variety because they made it.

45:33SpeakerThat's fine with me now. I'm over that. But I don't want them to patent the entire category. Yeah, but listen.

45:40AtnWhen you make a patent deposit, when you file a patent, if you're filing a patent for, for example, a processor or a machine, you have to file diagrams with that patent, right? And the diagrams teach everybody else in the art How you're doing it and what you're doing. And in demonstrating that, showing that your mechanism or your process or whatever it is is unique and that you've done it, then they will grant you the patent and say, yeah, you have the right to, you know, to reap the economics of that invention.

46:11AtnSo when you do this with plants, you have to make either seeds that demonstrate that chemotype exists. Or you have to make a clonal variety that demonstrates that chemotype exists available so that other people that are interested in challenging your patent can then come along and grow those plants and analyze them and see whether or not they actually do what the patent claims that they do. Okay, so if these patents are being granted, wouldn't you think that those seeds would have then been deposited?

46:45SpeakerYes, but you can still be sued for breeding in that category under the patent.

46:57AtnI mean, the fact is, That doesn't mean that the patent's going to hold up, but yeah, you're right on that.

47:04SpeakerBut that's unfortunately... And then there's the question of what's good for the industry and what's not.

47:12AtnThat's a different question. Sam said it a hundred times. I've heard him say it. You know... We wanted cannabis to be legitimized and legalized and subject to all the same systems that every other plant was and every other business was. I never wanted that. The systems that work for every industry in this country are totally fucked. Yeah, but dude, then change the systems. This is not an argument about cannabis.

47:37AtnThat's an argument about changing the systems of your country. Let me put it this way. Canada doesn't recognize plant patents. That patent that was filed in the US and worldwide doesn't apply in Canada.

47:51SpeakerLook, when we started trying to figure out what the pesticide rules should be in Oregon for cannabis, Oregon's about to be the first state that's testing every batch of cannabis for pesticides, right? And so we're like, well, let's go and see what they do about pesticides in the normal world. How does the EPA regulate pesticides in the normal world? And then we'll take those scientific standards that have been developed for other industries and we'll apply them to cannabis and we'll have some rational scientific-based system.

48:15SpeakerBut it turns out, guess what they do in the rest of the world? They let you dump pesticides on everything. And the tolerances that they set are based on 70 year old mouse studies and it's retarded. And so we're like, well, let's look at tobacco. They just let you smoke pesticides. When you go to take the framework from normal industries and apply it to this newly legal one, you're getting shitty old legal systems that You know, we're really very good.

48:44SpeakerWe actually have a chance to make things a little better in this new industry now across the boards.

48:48Etienne FontanSo are you saying the standards are then too high for the, what they're saying is the accepted normality?

48:57SpeakerFor pesticides, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's just an example. But like, just across the boards, when you go and look at how things are done in other industries, well, they're done terribly. I mean, that doesn't,

49:11SpeakerYou know, can I bring that back up then, Ryan? Something you just said, it's international courts don't really respect any of this. So how does this stuff fly when you start looking at the European model and market and the Canadian market? So the patents that have been granted on the type 2 plants without myrcene, that group has been very aggressive about applying for international patents as well.

49:35SpeakerSo you have to apply in other markets, but that's exactly what they're doing.

49:42AtnYeah, I mean, the thing is that someone was going to do it, right?

49:49SpeakerI'm not saying that that group, Chimera, is bad. I'm not saying that. Of course someone was going to do it. I'm saying that there are some things that we could do as a community to make this go in a different direction than having all the cannabis owned by a couple of wealthy companies. Best thing we can do, Mowgli, is publish huge amounts of terpene and cannabinoid information to show it's already out there.

50:19SpeakerThat is the best thing we can do, and we're trying to do that. But the truth is that without a community consensus, that that kind of broad IP is shitty. Even dumping everything we can into the prior art won't solve all of our problems going forward. In fact, I mean, I think the only thing that we can do is develop some kind of internal industry standards where we treat companies that get patents like that as very, very bad actors.

50:48SpeakerThere are also ways to challenge patents like that at the USPTO based on the obviousness standard, which is really important.

50:54AtnYou were right about that. I think that's probably the weakest part of that one. Is making a type 2 plant out of an existing terpene profile obvious or not?

51:07SpeakerIt's already been demonstrated 20 years ago.

51:10Etienne FontanBut going off of Todd's thoughts, then couldn't somebody in the U.S. become that first person to patent it, thus subverting the European and Canadian systems because of possible legalities with these states? Somebody's got to be trying this as we speak.

51:32BubblemanWell, you know, there's these two perspectives. Or attempting. There's people. Can people hear me? Yeah, I see the two perspectives, you know, and it's not like, I don't think any of us really are choosing, well, I guess probably the side we would choose would be quite honestly the one I'm about to mention, which would be to patent something that allows it to be protected and then, you know, sort of, it's a hard thing to do because there's a value there.

51:58BubblemanAnd if it's, the more value that's there, the more obvious valuable it is of a gift like Elon Musk. Thank you for watching.

52:28BubblemanThat's like the polar opposite of that other option of it being patented to be protected so it can be used and innovation comes from many, many, many people being able to have access and sort of be able to take a shot at it. You get all the different minds and you never know which mind is going to take that to that next level. We all kind of lose as a species, I think, when cannabis gets locked up like that and

52:54AtnSee, I don't believe that it is locked up is my point. No, but you must hear what he's saying. I do hear what he's saying, but I mean, it's also, again, it's kind of like, don't take this the wrong way, but it's kind of an idealistic... Thank you for joining us.

53:27SpeakerNo, there's things we can do to fight against that.

53:30AtnOkay, so let's talk about that. How can we lay it out? Because, you know, McKernan was on here saying that their sequencing and ID is going to stop people from sequencing patents or filing patents on these patented clones. But the reality is you change a few base pairs or you change a couple of basic traits and it's no longer the same clone, right? And therefore that sequence barcode that you guys have doesn't block anybody from You know, from, from working with these varieties, like what's, what's the solution then?

54:01AtnLay out the solution.

54:03SpeakerHere's the solution. So first of all, that sequence data will be the foundation for many, many patent challenges in the future. It'll be a lot more powerful if we can get a lot of people to, a lot of the labs to contribute chemotype data to the open cannabis project as well. But it has value in terms of demonstrating prior art. And you don't have to demonstrate the chemotype of a plant.

54:25SpeakerIf you can prove that it's the same plant and later get the chemotype data, the USPTO is used to that kind of thing. So it has value. And one thing we want people to know is that they don't lose anything by making their DNA sequence data public. It doesn't put their plants at risk at all. But it has some potential value in terms of blocking patents. But think about what Mark just said.

54:44SpeakerImagine if we have a world in the next couple of years Where hundreds and thousands of breeders are playing with the propocannabinoids and making interesting variant plants, right? Or we have a world where one company has the patent that covers all of those plants, even though they only made a couple of them. They have a patent on the entire category. Yeah, but you're making the assumption. Listen.

55:05SpeakerVersions can be sued.

55:06AtnYeah, you're making the assumption that they've only made a couple of them, and I happen to know that that's not the case. So...

55:13SpeakerBut you know... So just think about it. One company owns an entire category. What we should be doing is we should be getting companies who are in a position to get a utility patent on an entire category of cannabis to apply for that patent and then release it into the public domain and let everybody work in that category. And then let them get a few specific plant patents that cover individual plants that they want to commercialize.

55:40SpeakerI don't, why not do that?

55:45SpeakerWell, there's other ways to... Yeah, maybe they want a utility patent on the process. I mean...

55:53SpeakerThere's no process. Like the breeding is just traditional breeding. There's no process. Well, then how come there were no THCV varieties, pure THCV varieties before man made them? Look, it's an invention. It's new. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that there's a lot of ways we can exert control over how this industry goes.

56:21AtnBut how, though? How? If someone, like, say one of the companies that has this patent or these patents... Thank you for watching.

56:52AtnI'm not trying to be like the guy that's saying let's go patent everything and do all that shit. I'm really not. I'm just saying that this is the reality of the world that we work in. Yeah, this is the reality. What system can we truly put in place that's going to stop people from doing that? A, sharing all these genetics, which nobody wants to do because everybody's fucking greedy, right?

57:12AtnLike everybody's out for themselves. It's the way it is. I mean, even look at Prop 64. If all the growers of California had got together and done what was right for the growers, they could have put forth a good system, but there was no money. Nobody stepped up. Right? And therefore, the de facto one that came in was this Facebook guy or whatever his name was, right?

57:36AtnSean Parker, right? He was the guy that put up the money. So his proposition became the de facto proposition because it was funded, because nobody else wanted to work together. And that's the real lesson that I think that we have to learn as a community. It's not about the patents and us worrying about like one few groups. It's like we need to work together towards building a system that's actually going to work for us.

58:00AtnAnd let's find out what that root is. Let's talk about what that root is.

58:05SpeakerYou know, can I ask you, Ryan, what are some of the things you feel like the community can do? Because you are on both sides of this. You feel that it's a matter of fact thing, Monsanto plants, but you also feel like these big industries shouldn't, hold on, let me finish my thought, shouldn't be able to come along and fuck off the industry.

58:23AtnYeah, it's a misnomer that Monsanto patents plants. I think for the most part, Monsanto patents gene constructs that they then put into plants, and that's the utility, right? So those gene constructs are actually a utility patent. They're not plant patents.

58:38SpeakerWhat are some of the things you think we can do as an industry to protect the industry?

58:45AtnYeah, that's a really tough question. I mean, I'd love to say let's just let it all be a distributed, I mean, there's so many facets of that conversation from genetics to production. I mean, let's look at the production model in California. They allowed it to become this system that was, you know, crowdsourced production. But then what happened at the Emerald Cup last year? We all saw the results.

59:12AtnThere is all this contamination, mold contamination and pesticide use in an organic market. So people can't be trusted. People have to have regulation and that's why we talk about regulation and we all fear the change. We all want to know if we're going to be able to make it onto the other side of the change. But that's what it is, is dealing with regulations and regulations are there to protect all of our patients, all of our people that are using our flowers.

59:40AtnYou know, and when you look at it that way, I don't see how anybody can complain. As long as the regulations are reasonable and based on scientific principles.

59:50SpeakerWell, that's a lot to ask. Regulations are for people who want to sell things and make a profit. If you want to use it for your own personal use, you don't need no regulations. You don't need no freaking analysis. But if you want to sell it for profit, then I'd say we have to protect consumers.

1:00:12AtnI wonder if people are even aware that in the legal hemp market in Europe and all over the world, you actually can't legally grow a variety of Unless it's a registered variety. Right? You can't get subsidies in Europe for growing, I guess you could legally grow it, but... Well, you can't get the subsidies. Yeah, you can't get the subsidies.

1:00:30SpeakerThis is going to sound funny, but the only thing Ben Dronkers actually got convicted for in cannabis was exactly what you're talking about. Because some of the cultivars that were grown by some of the farmers were not the registered varieties because they wouldn't finish in time. So the farmers were trying to finish things that would finish in time in Holland. It wasn't even that, Todd. It's that they had, each farmer had to keep the bags from the varieties he used to prove what he used.

1:00:58SpeakerAnd he went and... Planted all the farmers' property and took all the bags with one machine, and that's what caused the legal problem. Because they couldn't prove that they were using the registered cultivars. Yeah, they were using the right ones, but they couldn't prove it because they didn't keep the bags on their property like required by the subsidy law.

1:01:23Etienne FontanIt would be a technicality.

1:01:26SpeakerIs that what they mean when you say you got left holding the bag? No, that's what it means when he got left not holding the bag.

1:01:34Etienne FontanRight. He tossed the bags, unfortunately, or wasn't able to produce them to actually represent what the, I guess that's what the country law is, I guess, right?

1:01:46SpeakerIt's legal to grow any hemp variety in the Netherlands, but it has to be low THC, below the limit, and it does not have to be a registered variety unless you want to get subsidy, and the farmers make more from subsidy than they do selling their crop, so subsidy is kind of important.

1:02:05AtnI'm quite sure, though, the EU actually passed a law that they haven't, it's an EU law, it's not an individual country law, but it says that you can't actually, as a seed company, you can't even sell seeds that aren't varieties, that aren't registered varieties.

1:02:19SpeakerYeah, but they don't stop anybody from doing it, but technically... Not yet.

1:02:23AtnNot yet they don't. But it is technically on the books that they've put that law in place. So it goes to show the degree of regulatory capture that exists in these industries, right?

1:02:34SpeakerAnd if you grow tomatoes here in the Netherlands, it has to be a particular registered variety. You can't just grow your own tomato seeds and sell them on the marketplace. Really?

1:02:48BubblemanWell, you know, as scary as it may seem, this big business coming down the pipeline trying to own everything up, cannabis has just come through some serious years of prohibition. And I'm not just talking about the last 70 for our country or 100 or whatever it's been, but literally like, you know, this plant has fought persecution for hundreds if not thousands of years. It'll be interesting to see how it can fight, you know, covert persecution.

1:03:18BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

1:03:37SpeakerAnybody?

1:03:39BubblemanWhat was it, the 16th century, Sam? They were ripping out the Sufi's teeth with pliers for eating?

1:03:45SpeakerIn Egypt, they were pulling out people's teeth. I think it was like the 1450s or 1550s around then. From then on, yes.

1:03:55BubblemanYes, that's all I'm saying. It goes back a lot further than 100 or 200.

1:03:58SpeakerI have a question for you, Mowgli. How do you think your DNA work will help people? Okay, with relationships, that's a bit clearer. You can explain that a little bit. But evolution, how is cannabis DNA going to help us with evolution studies? So we just need more samples in the database. I mean, what it lets you do ultimately is track how things are related and then you can track how they moved around the globe.

1:04:28SpeakerI mean, we want to figure out How it traveled from continent to continent. It's gonna help us tell that story, you know, but we definitely need a lot more data in there to do that. And sequencing the modern stuff, even though I do think it will help block patenting in a small but important way. And I think people are freaked out too much about how much it puts them at risk.

1:04:51SpeakerI don't think it puts people at risk at all, but sequencing the modern stuff does not help with that evolutionary story, right? We just need to get more and more old samples and see how they're related. Well, don't you think birds had a lot to do with spreading it around, even more so maybe than humans? I mean, realiztically speaking. I mean, humans brought it with them everywhere.

1:05:14SpeakerIt's a, you know, it's a camp follower plant.

1:05:16AtnSo I don't know about the birds, but it's a... Now, cannabis seeds don't do well through a bird's gut.

1:05:23SpeakerIt's very seldom that a cannabis seed will pass through most birds and be able to germinate. I mean, it's possible, but seldom. Well, let me add my two cents to that. I don't have the studies right here in front of me, but cannabis seed is unaffected by passing through most birds and most seed eaters who go after it. In fact, the cannabis plant itself keeps them wrapped up in the stuff that makes birds susceptible to predators.

1:05:55SpeakerIt's really a bird and a bug repellent. And the seeds easily pass through birds In a pile of poo sitting on the ground, water gets in it, it germinates, and I mean, that's how Mother Nature's been doing it for a long time. You can make a big argument for mankind. No problem, but I've watched birds crack cannabis seeds, eat the meat, and spit the fucking shells out.

1:06:18SpeakerSome do, but most of your small birds who are like wrens and stuff like that don't. They swallow them whole, and they don't have a better way of getting at it. The seeds are very hard. As well. So anyway, I'm going to coin a new term today. Tony and I invented last night. We made some, instead of temple balls, we made turple balls. And we made temple balls and we added terpenes to it.

1:06:47SpeakerAnd now we're going to call them turple balls because they are out fucking standing. They smell and smoke like nobody's business.

1:06:56Etienne FontanWhat terpenes did you use?

1:06:59SpeakerWe did different ones. We put some red Congolese and some lemon. Tony will be out in a while from his car. He'll know that better than I'll be able to tell you because I was kind of overwhelmed last night by all the different terpenes and stuff they brought with him. But anyway, we made a lot of trichrome separation last night. The best plant, I think, was... Wi-Fi?

1:07:27SpeakerWi-Fi. I don't know if it was Wi-Fi or not. One of them gave us 120 grams per pound. That's a pretty good sift return.

1:07:35BubblemanThe least one, the one that gave the less was 92 or 94 grams per pound.

1:07:48SpeakerIt definitely whacks water hash in the ass, a good hard one. And it's not wet, and it's dry, and as Tony said, wow, this is terpene rich, this smells great.

1:08:03BubblemanIt's not really going to be shown in the photo. When Tony just takes a simple photo of what it actually is...

1:08:11SpeakerWell, it is what it is because we took some photos with the iPhone and zoomed in on it because I've got a microscopic lens and that's what it is. We just finished before he left here. We took some and ran it through the 156 thread per inch screen.

1:08:26BubblemanI mean for everyone else, like when you tell your stories. All of those words will just evaporate once a simple photo is shown because the photo is everything. And I saw the photos you sent me. Those aren't the photos I'm talking about.

1:08:40SpeakerLots. No, no, we just, we took a photo of the stuff that we put through the 156 thread per inch.

1:08:47BubblemanWell, I can't believe Tony didn't bring his camera lens because he has the camera. You guys could have found out in a second exactly the ratio of heads to anything else that was going on there in very clear, easy. You can even put it up on a big monitor. So I'm looking forward to that photo so much.

1:09:05SpeakerHe forgot it and he was... I'm mesmerized by the process last night when we did it because he couldn't look away. I was trying to get his attention because he was standing in the way while I was making the video and he couldn't even hear me. He was just totally zeroed in on what was happening and he turned around and looked at me and he said, I've never seen that happen that fast ever.

1:09:32SpeakerHe goes, that blew my fucking mind. Yeah, dude.

1:09:36BubblemanIt's amazing. There's no doubt about it. Props. Salutations, Indra.

1:09:42SpeakerYeah. No big deal. Anyway, we made these turple balls, and let me tell you, they are so nice. You know, I hand-rolled them, and so afterwards, your hands, of course, smelled like the turps.

1:09:59BubblemanThe temple balls don't smell like your hands.

1:10:01SpeakerYeah, right. You wouldn't want them to smell like real balls, right?

1:10:06BubblemanTodd's laughing right now, but here's the thing. We had a Legends of Hash dinner one time in Amsterdam years ago, like 10 or maybe it was 10. I can't remember. But everyone was always very excited to bring their best to the legends of hash. They would make their best water hash. They would make their best dry sift. People would bring anything that they thought was worthy to, because for me, I wouldn't sell you a ticket unless you had something worthy.

1:10:33BubblemanLike I wasn't promising any of my friends tickets. They had to show me something worthy to get into the party. And that really ensured that we had really great hash. But this one guy, He basically hand rubbed like seven gram bar and it looked like a beautiful bar of caramel. Hand rubbed like the nicest heads off his indoor plants. We were just like, holy shit, like everyone was pretty excited about it.

1:10:58BubblemanTodd and... Emilio. Emilio from Trippy Sticks. And Trippy Stick guy, Emilio's hitting his trippy stick. He's got his little vaporizer. And he ends up putting in a hit of this hand rub. And I don't know if he hit it first or Todd hit it first. I know one of them hit it first and it was like, oh my God. That tasted like feet. Like literally the first rip of the vapor was just the oils from this guy's hands.

1:11:27BubblemanHe was probably like all excited and sweaty and in his room just like rubbing it up. But I'll tell you, I've never seen a seven gram chunk of hash just go from, you know, from hero to zero.

1:11:39SpeakerYou want to know something really funny? I still have that piece.

1:11:47SpeakerIt was from 10, so that was a long time ago. I still have that piece because it was really unsmokable. I mean, I really, really like the guy for trying hard, but to be honest, it was unsmokable. We had a new vaporizer set up for every sample, and when I dropped that into the vaporizer and touched it, It just tasted like body-like oils in your mouth. And then Emilio asked me, hey, can I have that?

1:12:17SpeakerAnd I said it to him, and he was the one that almost spit it. To be honest, even if it tasted like and smelled like dirty feet, as long as it was iry, I probably would have smoked it. But it was not iry at all-y.

1:12:36Etienne FontanSo how did you end up with the bar in the end? Did he just leave it and you just picked it up at the end of the night?

1:12:41SpeakerSam always ended up with the bars. Because legends sort of leaked out of my brain into Marcus's brain and we sort of created it.

1:12:54BubblemanWe did, and it was always kind of a known fact at the end that anything that was left over was Sam's. He lived there, nobody else really did, and it was like, yeah, of course. There was never tons left over. I mean, we would put...

1:13:08SpeakerEspecially when we started loading up that hubbly bubbly, sometimes I'd have to whip out several film cans more just to keep that hubbly bubbly going because you could put five or ten grams in at a time.

1:13:25BubblemanRight. Yeah, exactly. I'll never forget that. That is for sure. We got to maybe get... Boys, I got to leave you now.

1:13:32SpeakerI got a train to catch.

1:13:33BubblemanHey, thanks for coming in, Mowgli. Always a good conversation. Hope that you have a good rest of your day.

1:13:40SpeakerThank you very much for what you're doing, too. I hope you can help protect the industry. Be careful catching that.

1:13:51BubblemanHey, no better people to work together than those that sort of have opposing views and can show each other another perspective. You know, that to me is how you innovate right there. Not by separating and doing things separately, but putting those minds together.

1:14:10SpeakerNow, when I first met Mowgli, there were no cannabis plant patents. Well, that has now changed. Yeah. Hey, and don't think for a minute, Kamara, that I don't appreciate your school of matter of fact. You know, and I've always done that when you're over here and talking to you. And, you know, I like where you come from. Sometimes I just got to understand it and break it down a little bit.

1:14:34SpeakerBut I always kind of like where you're coming from.

1:14:38AtnYeah, I don't mean to come off and be rude. It's just you got to understand the way these patent things work. It's like imagine there was only boxes with no locks on them and then all of a sudden you came along and stuck a lock on this box and all of a sudden could protect everybody's stuff that you put in your box, right? If that had never been done before, that last step is enough to be a patent because it essentially defines what the use of the product is, right?

1:15:05AtnAnd so anytime you do that kind of step to a plant and you make it new or something that doesn't exist and it has a use, somebody can claim it. And I think the point that Mowgli is really raising is to what degree can you claim it?

1:15:22SpeakerNo, but that's not, I mean you guys should all realize that When Chimera talks about the legal details or the scientific details of this stuff, he knows what he's talking about. Like nothing that he's saying is incorrect. He understands this better than most of us do. It's just that I don't think people are taken seriously enough What a gigantic threat to the industry. Very, very broad patents are.

1:15:52SpeakerIt's going to absolutely transform the way that the future of cannabis shapes up. And I mean, the details of how it works, you know, are complicated, but these patents are really going to just completely change the landscape. And, you know, the way things work in the normal ag world now is kind of fucked up. Yeah. And we, we, And it has been very different in cannabis. It's been this crowdsource creation process.

1:16:22SpeakerAnd that could stop. And if there are things we can do to To keep it from going the way of the normal ag world, we have to do them.

1:16:30AtnWell, there's other forces that are also taking it away from this distributed network of growers that we have, this distributed production system. There's all this regulation where they're giving few licenses to few big companies.

1:16:45SpeakerI know, but the thing is we have to fight that too because if what we care about is the potential of this plant, then the absolute foundation of that is the incredible diversity of the plant. I agree with you. To preserve that diversity, we need to have IP protection that preserves it, and we also need to have, we also have to preserve the economic diversity that's out there, because it's all those little farms that work on this stuff and that make it new.

1:17:11AtnIf it comes down to just a few producers, then... Well, that's one thing I love about the new California model, is that they've...

1:17:19SpeakerIt's time for you to come out! No!

1:17:25AtnI got to go. Train, train.

1:17:27BubblemanAwesome. Bye, everyone. Go enjoy your family, Mowgli. Thanks for coming on.

1:17:34SpeakerThat was the best exit in Hash Church history, I think.

1:17:36AtnWe talked about this even last year at the Emerald Cup. We had a panel and we talked about this stuff. I said it back then. Support your local labs. Go and get your stuff analyzed. And when you do that, what you're actually doing is you're contributing to the public domain, the information that's in the public domain. And that's really what Magli was saying, is that the more information we have in the public domain, the better the public domain is defined, the harder it is for somebody to come along and try to claim a whole class of plants.

1:18:11SpeakerRyan, do you have any idea how many different wine, clone grapes for wine are actually grown? It's less than 500, isn't it, worldwide?

1:18:25AtnYeah, I think it's about 300, but I'm not really the authority on that.

1:18:29SpeakerI think it's something like that is what I remember. So I'm telling you, in the future, won't that happen to cannabis? Won't it be down to a few hundred? Clonal varieties that are reproduced as clones, just like wine is. Wine is not an annual like cannabis.

1:18:50AtnOne of the difficulties in wine is that it takes seven years to get a crop that you can actually start harvesting grapes and making wine. Right, so that's a lot of work and a lot of time to wait.

1:19:02SpeakerYeah, but it's, what I'm really talking about is the fact that they're able to satisfy the entire wine industry with 300 cloves. Can I bring up something though, Sam, and Ryan too? You can't really grow grapes in your closet.

1:19:22AtnNo, well that's one of the things is that the breeding system of cannabis has kind of brought about And again, this distributed production system from seed has really brought around this situation where you get a lot of people trying to find what they like, which is not like wine, right? Wine drinkers don't get to contribute to the choice.

1:19:45SpeakerI guess what I'm really saying is that that's probably the way that wine started. People probably took seeds out of their grapes, spit them on the ground, and grew them. Until finally, it became more sophisticated and they used cuttings. They used clones. That's what cannabis has become. I mean, in 1970, nobody was growing clones. Now, almost everybody grows clones. The industry has changed. It's not going back.

1:20:22SpeakerWe're going to find clones which are resistant to pests, resistant to disease, give double the yield with the specific cannabinoid and terpene profiles we're after. And the resin properties we're after, big giant heads that are as big as grapes, or I might be exaggerating a little bit.

1:20:44AtnI'd love to see that. The difference about cannabis is that there seems to be this, well, I mean, we all know the amount of variation that you see on any given trade is huge. You know, from seed size to cannabinoid levels to flavor, it's really, really quite incredible. And I keep seeing new terpene profiles all the time, like new terpenes that I didn't, you know, I never saw in really, really high proportions that are coming up as like, you know, 10% of the terpene content.

1:21:15AtnSo... I think that there's going to be a lot of room for different areas of development in terms of smell.

1:21:26AtnAnd that'll probably make it exist that given how many different cannabinoid chemotypes there are, if you do the combinatorial between those two factors, you're going to get a lot, there's a lot of different possibilities. So.

1:21:43SpeakerNo, I like where you're coming from. You're trying to come from the matter of fact explaining what's happening in other areas of plant science. And you're really on the side of us saying that, look, we have to be forewarned. This is what's going to happen if we don't pay due diligence to this and realize This shit's going on in a post-prohibition world.

1:22:03AtnGuaranteed big money will come in and try to make as much money as they can from every facet of this industry. I mean, that's definitely not a surprise to anybody, is it?

1:22:13SpeakerPeople listening might not realize you slept over my house and we're friends. I mean, one of the reasons I so easily will... Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:22:49SpeakerDon't tell anybody. Are S and K new base pairs that we don't know about yet? I synthesize them in my lab. I think K is the amino acid lysine and S is serine.

1:23:05Etienne FontanDo you send the SK-1 out in little storks every night? Is there a whole fleet of them that goes out, Sam, that goes and infects all the genetics?

1:23:15SpeakerNo, what I do is I produce 100 billion tons of pollen, and what everybody thought was jet chemtrails, it's actually I pay them and they're dumping my pollen everywhere worldwide.

1:23:32Etienne FontanGreat. So you're telling us is that these chemtrails is plant cum. Is that what you're telling us?

1:23:40BubblemanSK plant cum.

1:23:43Etienne FontanSK1 plant cum.

1:23:46BubblemanYes. Well, there's a few different kinds. It depends on the country.

1:23:51BubblemanThat's absurd and ridiculous and it made me laugh. I appreciate that. You could have a good laugh in the morning after a little bit of intense conversation in the hash church panel. We're passionate about this shit.

1:24:04Etienne FontanWell, and people are wondering, and that's why I'm very thankful to have people like, you know, Chimera, as well as Todd, because we can have both sides of the discussion, because people want to know the facts. People are curious, and that's why I appreciate Todd's coming from the curious, and I Of course, you are as well, Chimera, because you're so curious. You went to school and you learned it.

1:24:25Etienne FontanNow you actually can synthesize and actually do the science in a way that shows many people watching that we need more Chimeras out there that are going to school, that are getting these degrees and have the education to challenge these concepts because we're at a very unique time and space. We're in this change between a black... Market turning into a light market and changes that come within as well as we're going to see as we see other industries coming in.

1:24:57Etienne FontanSo people want to know what industries are coming in. How is it going to affect our realities in the future? And these are the ideas and concepts that we could have never thought years ago. But because we've moved the discussion, we're currently at this juncture where we have to realize that Big business can now look at this. Big business can now step into this world where it was some very few outliers and some crazy son of bitches like myself that were taking the risks many moons ago that today those risks are becoming less and less inherent so that these companies can come in.

1:25:32Etienne FontanSo we're at a unique time in history where we're seeing a shift Thank you so much for joining us.

1:26:06Etienne FontanThe saturation problem, so I wanted to then send this to real food chemists here in the Bay Area. That's all they do is they're like the 3M of food. All they deal with is taking food and making it better. But they couldn't deal, I couldn't send them the cannabis food. I could send them the recipe without the cannabis inside of it, but I couldn't send them that with the cannabis in it so I could get, Thank you for joining us.

1:26:47Etienne FontanOkay, what kind of butter is a better saturate to get an even cut through this particular cookie is just giving you my idea of, you know, just concept and how the whole paradigm will now change because we can now take it to these food scientists so they can actually do the test with the cannabis inside it, whereas in the past that wasn't possible unless they were a patient and none of them were patients or were willing to go through that pathway to receive it.

1:27:14AtnYeah, I think it's going to be really a good thing for California in the long run. I mean, they just let out a whole bunch of people or they're talking about letting out a whole bunch of people that are in prison, so. And there's definitely changes that are starting. I think it's so far.

1:27:28SpeakerOnce cannabis is truly legal, I mean really truly legal, not only interstate but between countries, then look at how other things are produced. Look how coffee is produced. Look how tea is produced. Look how roses, flowers, cut flowers are produced. They can be produced organically or not. And they arrive by jet at your doorstep. No, they're produced by hippies who demand high prices for overpriced organic material.

1:28:04SpeakerThat's where they come from. You're not talking flowers. I'm talking different kind of flowers. I'm talking roses. Roses, baby. I was kidding, of course. Hippies would never overcharge for an organic vegetable plant. Never. That's right. Never. Hey, Mark, did you get the Turple Ball pictures?

1:28:26BubblemanI did, absolutely, yes.

1:28:29SpeakerFeel free to post them if you want.

1:28:32BubblemanOh, Tony can't get in. I just got a message from him as well. You know what I really wanted to post?

1:28:39SpeakerIt took me four tries.

1:28:42BubblemanYeah, yeah, I'll just tell him to keep trying. Tell him to keep trying because we need to see it.

1:28:49SpeakerNo, it's a great conversation. We're all wondering about it, and I think these conversations are important to have in the community, for sure. There's Tony.

1:29:04BubblemanWelcome, Tony. I was just sending him a message saying, keep trying, it's been fucked.

1:29:10TonyCan you hear me now?

1:29:12BubblemanHey, I love that. Can you hear me now? Isn't that like a famous cell phone commercial?

1:29:17TonyNope.

1:29:19BubblemanHear me now?

1:29:20SpeakerWe can hear you. No, it's what Alexander Graham Bell said over the telephone the first time. To Watson? Can you hear me, Watson? Funny.

1:29:34TonyWell, I'm sorry I'm late. I was out patenting Hash Church.

1:29:41TonyBasically, all of your conversations and everything that's ever been discussed in the last all of the episodes is now under a utility patent under Hash Church.

1:29:50AtnSo it's too late. It's public domain. It became public domain as soon as we released it.

1:29:57SpeakerAnd there the argument starts again. I'm definitely going to challenge this patent.

1:30:06TonySo did Indra show you the temple balls?

1:30:11BubblemanYou showed me the Turple Balls. Let me see if I can move it over to my thing. Do this.

1:30:17TonyDid my text come in with a picture of it? Because I finally...

1:30:21BubblemanI don't know. Here, though.

1:30:22TonyI'll try to... Oh, there we go.

1:30:31BubblemanSo, Turple Balls.

1:30:35TonyDid you get my picture?

1:30:38SpeakerI don't know. My picture's better. There it goes.

1:30:43BubblemanWhat did you send me a picture? Through messenger or through text?

1:30:50SpeakerLittle balls of goodness it looks like.

1:30:53BubblemanI did not get a picture from Tony. Anyway, there are the triple balls. There are the triple balls. I didn't get any picture from you.

1:31:00TonyOh, it said it failed. Here. I'll send it to you because it was in the morning light.

1:31:05BubblemanAh, the morning light. Any good photographer knows all about that morning light.

1:31:14BubblemanAll those turbo balls look pretty sweet.

1:31:18SpeakerThey will knock your dick in the dirt.

1:31:20BubblemanI hope you kept some in powder so you can like photograph it.

1:31:25SpeakerNo, I don't understand the process. Once you mix it and it starts firming up, it's no longer a powder.

1:31:34BubblemanI understand the process, Indra. I was just saying I hope you kept some that was not pressed into balls.

1:31:44SpeakerCan't do that. You still have some of the trichromes, but once you mix it with the oil.

1:31:52BubblemanI'm not talking about the oil. I'm talking about just the resin that was made so he can fuck with it. That's all.

1:31:59SpeakerHe's got some of that. I know.

1:32:01BubblemanYes, right away.

1:32:03SpeakerMaybe your hat's too tight.

1:32:05BubblemanNo, no. He answered me yes right away. You answered no and then went on, and I was trying to explain to you that I was in a different book. I was on not a different page, but I was actually on a different book in regards to just making sure some of that was available to photograph. I think that it's a big deal, the photograph. First time I photographed Sam's 99.9%, that changed everything.

1:32:33BubblemanIt literally changed everything. It literally, everyone just went, mew. Thank you for watching.

1:32:57BubblemanAbsolutely, but even then, just to be able to see them, like hundreds of thousands of people saw that image over the course of a dozen or ten years or whatever it was. A lot of people saw that image. It inspired people to want to acquire it, to want to be able to make it.

1:33:18SpeakerI have signed copies available.

1:33:20BubblemanThere you go. Signed copies from Indra of the little like turple balls. Well, they look beautiful. I hope Tony makes like a nice video of them bubbling and melting away on a nail with the macro lens. Although Tony's gone again.

1:33:36SpeakerWe did burn some this morning and it was really all you could do to hold it in and it was just a real head hammer instantaneous and right now. We mixed train wreck oil and I guess the one that, what's his name down at Harborview likes so much, his trichromes. And we put red congolese and lemon kush terpenes in it and rolled them up. Tony last night was like, are you sure this is going to work?

1:34:18SpeakerBecause that doesn't look like it's changing in the temple balls to me. And I said, look, you just have to wait until everything in the conglomerate gets to be the same temperature. When the oil and the trichromes are at the same temperature, then we'll dig it out and roll it up in the balls. And he goes, I don't know. It doesn't look like it's going to work.

1:34:35SpeakerAnd then this morning, I got up early and rolled them all up. And he woke up and he's like, oh, we still got to try to do that. And I said, you mean these? And I handed him the dish full of them. And then he was like, it worked. So it was kind of funny watching it.

1:34:54BubblemanIt's always like watch people have revelations.

1:34:58SpeakerOh, he was having a revelation when we were separating the terpenes off last night. He was revelating like crazy. He, uh, Excuse me. We did five pounds, one pound at a time, and he was just mesmerized by it. He couldn't stop getting down and looking at it and seeing how. And he kept turning around looking at me and goes, man, this takes me six hours, and it just took you 45 seconds.

1:35:29SpeakerAnd I'm like, yeah, well, that's why you came here to understand how that works. Hey, five hours and 59 minutes is a long time when you're standing in front of the microwave. All right.

1:35:44BubblemanSomeone said they wanted to see a picture of just heads. I have some of Cubans, actually, that I managed to find here. Just the trichome heads. Well, let's see where we go here. There we go. Boom.

1:36:00SpeakerYeah, I don't have a camera that'll get that close of a picture.

1:36:04BubblemanTony does. Tony has that exact camera that I have, so he'll be able to take a picture.

1:36:09Etienne FontanIt's like crystal caviar.

1:36:12BubblemanIt's like crystal caviar, man. It's insane. Absolutely redonkulous.

1:36:19SpeakerWell, considering that we got the 120 grams that were available there, I'm sure some good percentage of them are just heads like that because that was complete. You could look in the after material and you could dip your hand in it and shake it around and you didn't get any trichromes on your hands even. So we had a very complete... You photographed that too. Huh?

1:36:44BubblemanYou can photograph that as well. It's so important. I can't believe he didn't bring the lens because it's just such a key thing to have, to be able to get there, like, you know, to have that prosthetic that goes so much closer than the naked eye and be able to blow it right up and see what's going on. Clearly, I'm obsessed with macro photography, but that's another topic.

1:37:08SpeakerYou're not that far from me, John, and I could do some really nice photography for you. Really show what you're doing perfectly.

1:37:17BubblemanWell, Tony finally bought the MPE. You should go shoot with him, Todd.

1:37:21SpeakerI'll show him how to layer, too.

1:37:23BubblemanYeah, he's all about it. He's a good photographer and a good videographer but at the same time it's a bit of a tricky lens when you first get it and it can be a little bit overwhelming when you first, first get it and you feel like you just can't get a good shot with it.

1:37:38SpeakerIt is so tricky that there is a review online of the lens where the reviewer couldn't get a photo using the lens but still wrote the review of how much he liked the lens even though he couldn't get it to work. If you could really do the super close-ups with multiple layers so that you've got incredible depth of field, that would be really beautiful, Todd. Yeah, that's what I could do.

1:38:07SpeakerAnd, you know, Tony can too. It's just that we have to set him up. I'll school him on it. He just needs some additional software. Right. Where are you even at, Todd? I'm in the East Bay. Up on top of the hills looking down on San Francisco. Oh, East Bay. Yeah, I'm a four hour drive north of that. A little bit four and a half, I think.

1:38:29SpeakerI'll jump in the truck anytime, buddy. It's a little bit of equipment I got to drag up, but it would be fun.

1:38:35BubblemanHere, check this out. This is one of the first photos I took of Sam's resin. You can really see the difference in the maturity between his and Cuban. There's a tiny little bit of contaminant in this one. That's one from way back, like 2008, I think.

1:38:53SpeakerMore than a decade old.

1:38:55BubblemanYeah. Yeah. But I'm trying to find like some of the really good ones, like the best ones that I took of yours, which would be good to share because it's just, oh yeah, it's.

1:39:09SpeakerProbably the ones that look the prettiest to that clean up was Slee Stack.

1:39:15BubblemanYeah, exactly. Yeah, that Slee Stack was on point. Super beautiful.

1:39:23BubblemanHard to find them though.

1:39:28BubblemanSuch beautiful things to see all these. I've got to do another MPE live stream one of these days because it's definitely, it's fun to talk about photography and cannabis photography.

1:39:42Etienne FontanYes, one of us needs to break down and get an electron microscope. Hell yeah. They're cheap, right?

1:39:50BubblemanYeah, you can get them for next to nothing.

1:39:55SpeakerActually, you can if you don't mind getting old university castoffs that are no longer relevant in the research field.

1:40:01BubblemanNo problem.

1:40:03SpeakerI saw a couple of them on governmentsurplus.com.

1:40:08BubblemanOh, yeah.

1:40:09SpeakerAnd you can find a, there's a couple of, you know, you're scanning black and white electron. Of course, they're all black and white, but the newer ones, pseudo color and the other thing.

1:40:21BubblemanRight.

1:40:21SpeakerSo. Yeah, I think they were in the price range of like $3,000 to $5,000, which is not bad. John, this photo that's up right now is something you'll recognize, and this is what Sam is talking about when he says 100% depth of field. This is a layered photograph.

1:40:42BubblemanOh, I can't find Sam's shots, so I'm going to stop looking because I could be looking through my 180,000 shots here forever.

1:40:51SpeakerCan you see that, John? Yes. OG Kush. This is extended depths of field using the layering technique.

1:41:08SpeakerThese are all live plants that I'm doing. Right.

1:41:11BubblemanYeah, you can tell by the trichomes they're live. Live ones are the best. I love live ones.

1:41:20Etienne FontanHere's a... But also you get that evenness across the flower too.

1:41:25SpeakerYeah. Yeah. You can use your eyes to look around the photo instead of it just being a spot. And it's kind of scientific photography.

1:41:33BubblemanAnd here's just the spot.

1:41:35SpeakerNo layers, one shot. I love your spots, though. I've always dug it.

1:41:39BubblemanYeah, they're both an interesting, different way of doing it, you know, like being able to see that whole... Christopher Rex is pretty incredible as well from Dynasty Genetics. Got to give a mad shout out to him doing some pretty quality macro shots as well.

1:41:54SpeakerReally, really high quality.

1:41:55BubblemanPeople getting interested in it.

1:41:58SpeakerYeah, his stuff is absolutely amazing. Fucking awesome.

1:42:04BubblemanWe got going in, Sleestack has NL5 haze in it. Is that what it has in it? I'm impressed with that skunk too, because that's the one Sam's talking about. The Sleestack had the skunk in it, correct Sam?

1:42:18SpeakerI did it both ways, but I think the best one was actually pure Sleestack. Really? For the cleanliness, yes.

1:42:32BubblemanBut the amounts that you got from the skunk, I remember it was really producing resin.

1:42:40SpeakerI think the cleanest ones I did that had large amounts of was pure sleaze fat. It worked as easy as skunk. For making really, really high quality pure, almost pure resin.

1:42:56BubblemanIt was such nice resin, I thought I'd see it a lot more. I have to admit, I was super surprised to see that resin come and go and never see it again. It was all oil after that year of dry sift. Everything I saw from DNA after that was oil. I was always like, oh, you guys got to get back on that dry sift game. Man, I'll tell you.

1:43:20SpeakerWell, that's the thing that's nice about both Skunk and Sleestack is they give a decent yield. I mean, with dry scents, you never get a great yield, but it's decent, and the quality of both of them is superb. What's the lineage of Sleestack? What's that? What is Sleestack? It's a variety from DNA seeds. No, I was wondering what it originated in. I think it's across of Martian Mean Green and... And Strom.

1:43:56SpeakerWhat? And Strom. Okay, there you go. And I've never smoked either one of those. You've never smoked either one of those? No, no. You've got to remember, I'm an incredibly boring guy.

1:44:10BubblemanRight.

1:44:11SpeakerFirst of all, I like resin. Second of all, yeah, most people don't have resin that's good enough.

1:44:20BubblemanWell, one thing I liked about DNA and when those guys showed up in Amsterdam is they had the fire pretty much right away. Like anything I saw their material run, it produced pretty melty product. And when they first introduced me to the Martian Mean Green, it was like completely full melt, dripped through the screen, like high, high quality hash. That would have been back in like 2004, I think.

1:44:44BubblemanIs that when they showed up in Amsterdam? Something like that, yes. I would say yes around there. They had the lab coats on. I'll never forget it. They both were like characters.

1:44:57SpeakerDon and Aaron are great.

1:44:59BubblemanYeah.

1:44:59SpeakerThey always have high quality. Those guys are so awesome. I love when they bring anything to the party.

1:45:05BubblemanYeah, they really changed up the cups too, you know, because it seemed like before that it was really kind of Adam and Doug that would throw these parties and Adam would do all these unique and funny things for the cup, like the trichome challenge. And he was like a big energy behind the cups and sort of like part of that special vibe that happened. And DNA just sort of came into town and it wasn't very long in that they were just throwing big parties.

1:45:30BubblemanThose hotbox parties were absolutely... Insane. Good fun. Dilated peoples and just great music.

1:45:39SpeakerThey both got great personality and they're both a lot of fun to be around. Both funny. It's not hard to see how they became very popular in the industry. They're a very likable guy.

1:45:50BubblemanFor sure they are, yeah. Yeah, you know what, John? You know how you said loosen your hat to me earlier?

1:45:57SpeakerYeah.

1:45:59BubblemanI think I figured out why my face looks so red in this hat because it's got the red reflective because I'm really like at times look at myself and I look like my hat is too tight. It looks like my forehead's red. I assure you my hat is not too tight.

1:46:15SpeakerI was just pulling your leg.

1:46:17BubblemanI know. I felt it. I looked down at one point and was like, is John under my desk?

1:46:22SpeakerOne leg was longer suddenly. One leg was longer suddenly. Can I tell you what's funny? I just saw what your shirt says and for a while I thought it was a guy like pissing on a plant. Whoa! I only saw a part of it and I was like, what is going on with his shirt? Maybe it's like nitrogen or something.

1:46:42BubblemanDon't grow blind, man.

1:46:44SpeakerDon't grow blind.

1:46:46BubblemanDon't do it.

1:46:47Etienne FontanAre you saying that blind people can't grow?

1:46:49BubblemanNo, no, not at all. I mean, listen, after my friend Tim introduced me to a whole group of blind skiers, he teaches kids to ski on the rest of the mountain and they're blind. I was like, blind people can do anything. Like, it's really quite incredible, you know, when you have a little bit of help and you learn about the rest of your senses. That blew me away.

1:47:09SpeakerI have a stupid, stupid question. How do blind people avoid trees?

1:47:16Etienne FontanI can speak to this. My brother and father are both born blind. Please. I have spent my... They can actually hear the air. I am not kidding you. They can actually hear the air move around things. I could not sneak up upon my father in socks on linoleum. Within 10 paces, and he could hear either me breathe or the air around me move. So they are that well at it.

1:47:43Etienne FontanSo on top of that, they also learn tricks to have sticks as well as dogs. But that being said, I wouldn't teach either of them how to grow. And I would be afraid of the products they would come up with.

1:47:57SpeakerI'm going to have to YouTube blind skews downhill challenge now.

1:48:01Etienne FontanYeah. Hey, I taught my brother how to ride a bike, the two-wheel bike who's blind. So, I mean, they can do everything. We used to tell people, close your eyes. I always thought you were a cool brother. Hold on. Now, close your eyes. Now, what about you is different other than you can't see?

1:48:17AtnNothing.

1:48:18Etienne FontanSo you can do anything you want no matter, you know, your disability. So that's one of the things that my brother and father both taught me because my father was the first blind lawyer in Louisiana, graduated from Loyola back in early 60s, which very difficult to do, needless to say, just as a lawyer, much less Louisiana law, much less had now a disability on top of that.

1:48:42Etienne FontanSo Anything is possible. My brother, Andre, was born without eyeballs and is also autistic. But even he is a functional member of society and lives in a group home and works for the Lighthouse for the Blind in New Orleans to this day, putting together either dialysis kits or making brooms, mops, etc. He's, you know, completely able, even though he, you know, he... Handicapped people like that tend to go to what's called a living skills center.

1:49:11Etienne FontanAnd so when he went through the living skills center, it was deemed that he was not able to live on his own. So he cannot live on his own. So he lives in a group setting. But yeah, anything is possible if you apply your mind.

1:49:26SpeakerListen, I don't remember where the head shop was, but I used to go to a head shop where they had a blind girl rolling all the joints back around six or seven years ago, somewhere down in the Bay Area. And she rolled the most perfect joints ever. And she was rolling them and not really looking at it while she was doing it. And I was standing there like an idiot.

1:49:47SpeakerI said, hey, those are really nice joints. And she didn't even look up. And she said, thank you very much. And I said, where did you learn to roll like that? She said, oh, you know, just trying to make a living. And she had sunglasses on. And I said, stupid me. I said. What are you wearing sunglasses for in here? It's already dark. And she's like, oh, well, for me, it's completely dark.

1:50:12SpeakerI'm blind. So that was me putting my foot in my mouth expertly, taking it out and putting the other one back in on an exchange program.

1:50:25BubblemanYeah, yeah. It happens sometimes. Definitely the worst thing to say to someone like if anger is like, what are you, blind? Is guaranteed a good foot in the mouth.

1:50:36SpeakerSometimes blind people are so able that you can't tell that they're blind.

1:50:42Etienne FontanOn top of that, we have these things called blindisms, which you'll learn by being around blind people that they will do these little tricks to be, when they know they're around sighted people who realize they're blind, they'll use it to take advantage of them to get them to do things for them, etc. So we've also learned how the handicap can manipulate through their even own intelligence to get what they want by realizing that people look at them differently or act differently Thank you.

1:51:10Etienne FontanThank you. Thank you.

1:51:37Etienne FontanHaving meetings, I would go around and go to them and ask them if their dogs needed walking, and nine times out of ten they did, and they would give me a quarter per dog that I walked. And whenever you have these large conventions, these facilities will take a floor in a parking lot and then cover it in... Large swaths of cat litter. So you go down there and you walk the dog and you go back and they give you a quarter tip.

1:52:05Etienne FontanWell, all these hotels had usually a video machine or an arcade back then. And of course, I had a video game addiction. So I could just go spend an hour walking dogs and have more than enough to spend the entire afternoon just on change alone. So we all learn our ways through the reality.

1:52:25SpeakerWhere's your camera at, ATN? Where's your camera positioned at? Because when you started telling me your brother and your father were blind, I started suspecting something's going on because you do a Stevie Wonder in front of your camera. You stare all around except at the camera. And it sort of looks like Stevie Wonder playing the piano and turning his head and looking around. And you know he can't see shit, right?

1:52:48Etienne FontanYeah, well, I am blind in my right eye, but I right above me is my TV screen. And of course, I'm watching football. So I'm multitasking.

1:52:59BubblemanThat's pretty awesome that you don't, you know, you still maintain your football, but you make it to Hash Church every Sunday.

1:53:08Etienne FontanOh, with one eye. I was never this religious when I went to Catholic school. I mean, I learned how to actually crawl into, I mean, oh, actually, yeah, next month is December 19th, 1976. I actually burned my house down with my first confession candle and then lied about it, which is actually rather hilarious. But I used to, I used to could crawl in, I could sneak into my mom's bedroom because remember, my mom was a secretary to the archbishop.

1:53:36Etienne FontanSo one of her standard rules is we're never late to church. And if we're late to church, we don't go to church because if the archbishop sees us coming late, she gets shit. So I could learn to crawl in and sneak in on my back, reach up and grab my mom's alarm clock and just turn the alarm just late enough. So by the time it would take to get us all ready, it would be too late.

1:54:00Etienne FontanSet it back. And I crawl out of the room on my back. And then the alarm would go off too late. Nope, we can't go to church.

1:54:09SpeakerDarn, can't go to church. Is that the reason that you're always the first one here at church usually?

1:54:16Etienne FontanWell, I'm back.

1:54:20Etienne FontanNo, I set my alarm actually about 15 minutes before waking up. So, you know, I'm literally up 15 minutes before this whole thing starts. So just enough to me to wake up, come over, turn on my computer, hit a bong, and we're going. I don't do early. I did early in the military. You know, 5.30 a.m. I had to be standing tall before the man. And once I was done with that shit, I was like, fuck that early morning shit.

1:54:45Etienne FontanI'm a late morning person.

1:54:47SpeakerI can tell from your hair that you haven't showered yet today. And as a farmer, I say, I love early shit.

1:55:00Etienne FontanYou like worms is what you're saying?

1:55:03SpeakerNo, I like getting up early. My mind is clear. There's no confusion. There's no competition for my energy. And I can focus really easy. How long does that last? It depends. If I'm really, really toking hard, not long. But I used to work, not work, I did go to work, and then I didn't smoke until 5 o'clock in the evening. And in those circumstances, it lasted all day.

1:55:38SpeakerWas that the prison guard job? No, that's when I was smuggling drugs into the prisons, remember?

1:55:49SpeakerThat's when he was a tour guide at Disney.

1:55:52Etienne FontanMeanwhile, sending out SK1 patents all the time. You are just amazing multitasker, Sam. I mean, how do you even do it?

1:56:02SpeakerI don't know. I'm just an incredibly busy type guy who's now retired and too lazy to do anything. I think it's the fuzzy red hat. I was going to say, Mark, I think it's the fuzzy red hat.

1:56:17BubblemanYeah, or the thing around his neck there. What is that, like a bouffant?

1:56:26SpeakerThat's a boa. That's called a boa, I believe.

1:56:29BubblemanThat's a boa? Yeah. Oh, I thought it was more like a turtleneck thing. Is it like a scarf that's wrapped around his neck, Sam?

1:56:39SpeakerIt actually is.

1:56:40Etienne FontanYeah, that's what I thought. Oh, is it Christmas garland? Yes. It's Christmas. It's Christmas, Garland, wrapped around Sam's neck.

1:56:52SpeakerHe's just partying a little bit early.

1:56:54Etienne FontanNice.

1:56:56BubblemanGetting right into it.

1:57:00BubblemanOh, geez. I like when it shows up as the avatar for Hash Church that week, and it's this friggin' doll.

1:57:10SpeakerDid you see when it was all three of them, right? It was Pinocchio. Oh, yeah. Yeah, all three of them got it.

1:57:17BubblemanI'm trying to invite like Ethan Russo and it's like he goes and looks at Hash Church and sees it's a picture of a doll for the avatar.

1:57:25SpeakerI think we got a concept episode ahead of us, Mark, where we all show up as dolls, right? I like that. What doll would you be, right? That would have been the high one. I got my Jerry Garcia doll upstairs I'll probably use.

1:57:40BubblemanOh, shit.

1:57:41Etienne FontanI have an opus. I'd use my opus for sure.

1:57:44BubblemanI might have to go for fucking Spider-Man. I'm not even joking. Your spidey sense, right?

1:57:51SpeakerI can honestly say the only reason I picked this one was, number one, my granddaughter had it. Number two, I said, gee whiz, Sam, I am, I am. I am Sam.

1:58:05BubblemanThat's hilarious.

1:58:08SpeakerI just have to use my live small dog. I don't have any dogs.

1:58:14SpeakerWe'll teach that dog a sit. I'll send one in the mail for you. Thanks. I appreciate it.

1:58:21BubblemanYou must have grandkids, Indra.

1:58:25SpeakerI do, but they're up in Oregon. Tell them to send you a doll. Well, she's 10 years old, and she gave up dolls some years ago.

1:58:34Etienne FontanGo in the attic, pull one down, send it to Grandpa.

1:58:37SpeakerMy granddaughter is 10 years old, will be 11 next month.

1:58:45BubblemanWow, you guys got the same age granddaughters?

1:58:51SpeakerI guess so. And she has zillions of stuffed animals. Or she did. Her mom won't allow her to have more than a dozen or two anymore. Right. I think my daughter might have a Malibu Barbie downstairs I could send you if you want one. Chili Boo's disturbing.

1:59:13BubblemanHe's like, what about one of those 5K love dolls?

1:59:17SpeakerHow about the Ken doll that came along with Malibu Barbie? I don't have the Ken doll. Actually, I think we do. I think we do have a Ken. Just check the trunk of the car. He's in there. Is that the anatomically correct one or the one just with the bump? There are no anatomically correct ones.

1:59:38BubblemanOh yeah, you can buy this whole line of Barbie dolls from Berlin, Germany, and they are very anonymically correct.

1:59:45Etienne FontanI was about to say, some artist actually made a line of generalized.

1:59:51SpeakerIt ain't the real thing.

1:59:53BubblemanIt's the real thing. They're actually having them removed from people and put on these dolls. It's sick, but I'm telling you it's true.

2:00:00Etienne FontanTechnology, man. Yeah, this is crazy.

2:00:05BubblemanWell, I think I'm going to have a puff. I think that once the conversation on Hash Church gets so absurd and ridiculous.

2:00:12SpeakerDude, Tony brought all those turps last night, and then this morning, he spilled the red Congolese hash oil on his fingers, and he's sitting there looking at me, and he goes, I actually spilled all those all over my fingers. He goes, here, smell. And he holds his fingers up to my nose. And I'm like, okay, well, rub it on some hash that we've got here so that it's Not going to waste.

2:00:37Etienne FontanThe old smell my finger trick, I see.

2:00:39BubblemanI know, I was just going to say, so Tony pulled the old smell my fingers on Indra.

2:00:44SpeakerThe only way it would have worked is if there was terpenes on the fingers. Otherwise, I never would have entertained the thought.

2:00:52Etienne FontanThat's what she said.

2:00:53SpeakerI would have just smiled at her. Not the old smell my finger trick, it's pull my finger. That's even older. You just dated yourself.

2:01:05BubblemanIs it older?

2:01:06SpeakerPull my finger.

2:01:09BubblemanThe smell of my finger. That's a topic that we here at Hash Church are going to dwell deep into. We're all going to be doing research on this for next month.

2:01:18Etienne FontanGreat. So Ask Terps, is that what we're dealing with?

2:01:20BubblemanWe'll invite Dr. Lester Grinspoon and all the top names in medicine to come in and have this discussion. Maybe I better have another rip. I'm not quite...

2:01:30Etienne FontanI'm not quite there yet.

2:01:32BubblemanThank you, D420K, for the OG Kush squish that I've been enjoying since he left it here.

2:01:42BubblemanIt's kind of fun to have... I think you would appreciate it. You know, the... Less and less people have amazing concentrates to offer, but more and more people have really great bud. And it is a nice ability to just be able to take a quarter ounce or an eighth or whatever of nice bud and just squish it and see what you get. I mean, it's not as worthwhile to break it up and try to sift it compared to, oh, what do we got there?

2:02:08BubblemanChimera's writing something in the catch room. Composition of the essential oils and extracts of two populations of cannabis sativa. Composition of the essential oils and extracts of two populations of cannabis sativa. All right, well, thank you for that.

2:02:24AtnYeah, sorry, that was the reference that Dr. Charles Dunn posted. Okay, cool. But I just wanted to point out, even on that one, they're myrcene dominant and type 3. Right.

2:02:38SpeakerWhich reference was that? Was that the Canadian Journal of Cannabis? Yeah, I think that was that one. Yeah, I think so.

2:02:45Etienne FontanSo Myrtacine would make a great dominatrix is what you're saying.

2:02:49AtnIt's always the highest, usually the highest terpene.

2:02:55AtnBut there are, you know, not in all varieties, like for example, Trainwreck or Jack Herrer.

2:02:59Etienne FontanBut we also found when we started to do testing, this is before we started to do terpene testing, we found a majority of the phenotypes were very similar compound wise. And so that's why we started to drift toward the terpene testing because that started to give some differential there as opposed to, I would say, 80% of the phenotypes we were getting were coming across chemically around the same.

2:03:25AtnYeah, exactly. Well, you know, in cannabis, it depends on what chemicals you're looking at. If you're looking at the cannabinoids, there's a lot of variety, but there's really only a few main types, right? There's THC dominant, there's CBD dominant, and the mixed type, type 2, THC and CBD, and that's really what you'll find in drug cannabis, but the rest of it you don't really see. So all the variation that you see in the different varieties is due to terpenes.

2:03:53AtnWell, that's what we found.

2:03:54SpeakerYeah. In drug varieties, you also find small amounts of THC and THC B. And also maybe CBDV. But they're usually in small amounts. They're not found in large amounts.

2:04:09Etienne FontanVery small blips.

2:04:10SpeakerLike THC, CBD, you find those in relatively large amounts. And especially CBD recently has changed from being 25%.

2:04:25Etienne FontanWhen we originally started way back in 2007, what we had was the THC sample from... Arno. And then playing with that, then we started to find that other larger spike, which turned out to be CBD upon further delving into what was it possible. And it was interesting then to see, then start to go, okay, what are these other smaller blips that we were getting on the UVH PLC and stuff like that, which was...

2:04:49Etienne FontanVery fascinating in that day, but it's glad to see that though, because we knew one day all these little blips are going to have names. They're all going to know exactly what these are. So ticking them off one by one is definitely makes my heart very happy to see the science, what it's progressed to within just the last 10 years and where it's going.

2:05:09AtnWell, as much as we see those little blips though, they really aren't. I mean, Thank you for joining us.

2:05:38AtnI don't actually know psychoactively if there are any effects.

2:05:41SpeakerI've smoked it. It does not get you high, and it does not seem to interfere with or help THC potentiated or modulated in any way I could see. It does other things, though.

2:05:54AtnI believe it inhibits MRSA, which is the superbug that's in a lot of these hospitals, the methicine-resistant staph. Right? So that's pretty cool that a cannabinoid is doing something that the antibiotics are...

2:06:09Etienne FontanSo CBG was found to be the actual specific cannabinoid there?

2:06:14AtnI believe it is. I've got to look that up.

2:06:17SpeakerI'm pretty sure CBG is an antibiotic that's useful for many indications like that. What's the predominant terpene in train wreck while we're on the train wreck subject? Terpenylene. And what's the major terpene in like a Jack Herrer or an NL5 haze? What's that spicy haze?

2:06:40AtnI don't know because I don't know which one you're talking about. Terpene, sorry, Trainwreck is like terpene dominant. There's much more terpene than anything else. But Jack is about like terpene and then there's about half as much myrcene as there is terpene.

2:06:57SpeakerJack is sort of close to what I mean. If you remember the 90s, that NL5 by Hayes, the Nevels Hayes. It just, it was, it dominated a lot of the contests back in, when I first got to Amsterdam it was NL5 by Hayes and then it kind of got bred into Super Silver Hayes towards the late, late 90s.

2:07:15AtnSomebody just gave me an NL5 Hayes cutting that they, that they grew and selected and they brought over a sample of the extract and the extract was really incredible actually. It was super spicy and unique, it really had something.

2:07:27SpeakerSpicy is the best way. I could light up a joint of Neville's Haze in a coffee shop that had been blazing 24-7 for 20 years and it would cut right through the stump. Oh yeah, yeah. Also remember too that the Haze NL was not just a simple Haze NL. It was a Haze NL back crossed with Haze again. Oh was it? I'm almost sure of that. Huh.

2:07:56SpeakerYou're saying that NL5 by Hayes was actually NL5 by Hayes by Hayes? That's what Neville told me back then.

2:08:07AtnHe was probably just trying to throw you off his trail.

2:08:09SpeakerThat could be true and it could also be more than one version. So, yeah.

2:08:14AtnWell, whatever it was, my friend went through a couple of packs of it and he came over with this plant and said, you got to check this out. And, you know, the extract was incredibly terpy, like it was ridiculously terpy. So I want to grow it in a standardized environment and get it into the lab.

2:08:32SpeakerI would say the highest terpene smells that I've ever smelled in any cannabis variety was the original haze of the 70s and 80s. Absolutely.

2:08:45AtnSo it just lost that vigor in the downline selections or what?

2:08:50SpeakerYeah, well, it's been self so many times. And there wasn't really, the real problem is the best haze was created in the very early 70s, late 60s. And it was a hybrid vigor of three different Colombian lines, a green one, a magenta one, and a purple one. And when they crossed them a few times, they did four selections. They just used different males and different females. And every time you selfed them, they were not as good as that fire that they had from the first hybrid generations.

2:09:33SpeakerAnd now the fire is still there, but what you've got to do is combine it with something else. Thank you for watching.

2:09:56SpeakerNo, a lot of people really liked it. And then I think either it or its progeny became known as Super Silver A's or something. Do you know, they're different. They're definitely different. The NO5 by Hayes was the Sensi era of Neville. And then Neville broke up and then Neville started doing his own thing again. And we saw Neville's Hayes and then Neville started hanging out with Aryan.

2:10:22SpeakerAnd that was kind of short-lived, but out of that we saw super silver haze. That was around that time, 96, 97 at Neville. It was a variation of the NL5 by haze, but it was more hazy. It didn't get these big fat buds.

2:10:38AtnWhat was your NL5 haze like in terms of habit and flower phenotype?

2:10:45SpeakerWell, the one I had was I grew the NL5 by Hayes in Amsterdam when I was at Posse. I used to buy it from the greenhouse and it's interesting the way we used to grow it was with zero days pre-grow. It would get about 30 inches tall. We would average 14 to 16 grams of plant. Nettle was the one that basically told us to grow it with zero days pre-grow and it worked out really well.

2:11:11SpeakerIt had a rather large bud for a haze, but it still smelled spicy and had a very energetic, uplifting high. And we weren't doing chemical tests back then on cannabinoids, so I can't tell you how high the THC was. I mean, Sam was doing it with Stunk One, but it's not like we were testing stuff at Posse and Greenhouse and stuff like we are at EPG and other places today.

2:11:38SpeakerInteresting. Yeah. Fantastic variety though, Cali Mist is very similar but Simon went after it using a female haze that took 16 weeks to finish flowering and would mix it with a shorter 8 week, 9 week male and he would come up with the Cali Mist which was a lot like the female, smoked like her, smelled like her, you know, gave you the energetic high but was 6 weeks quicker.

2:12:03SpeakerCali Mist and NL5 Haze were easily two of my favorite varieties back in 1996 when I lived there.

2:12:09BubblemanThey're definitely great to smell in the air.

2:12:12Etienne FontanI remember scoring those at Katsu and even the hash and was just blown away. Katsu is a small little shop which Todd actually turned me on to where the locals went to and he liked it because that's where he got the hazes.

2:12:25SpeakerYeah, they specialized in hazes. They still do.

2:12:28Etienne FontanYeah, they were great.

2:12:29SpeakerOne of my favorites. And I think we'll see that more now as more connoisseurs start smoking the stuff that takes longer and yields less but has more of a For me, it was the outright feeling of it. I had smoked, you know, no disrespect, Sam, but smoked a lot of skunks that really sat my energy, you know, got me really high, you know, made me hungry. But when I started smoking haze, wow, wow.

2:12:54SpeakerYou know, it was like morning coffee. Wake me up, give me a pep, focus me. You don't need to convince me. Remember, I'm the one who brought the haze, so. And I forever thank you. And I absolutely agree with you. When I had my great haze, I wouldn't smoke my great skunk. Even if the skunk won the Harvest Festival, I didn't give a flying shit. I smoked what I liked.

2:13:23SpeakerWhich, in general, I like more like haze type, you know, cannabis. That's really the kind of pies I like.

2:13:30BubblemanWe all have that in common in here because I've said it before, you know, my son's middle name is haze. It's by far my favorite alcohol, terpene profile, whatever you want to call it. That smell, that terpenolene and those other flavors in there, just, and of course the headspace. And I'm certain that it has everything, a lot to do with those terpene profiles, how unique they are and why we feel.

2:13:53SpeakerYou could smell a joint in the back party house, whether it was a super silver haze or Neville's haze or a haze skunk or NL5 haze. It, uh, They all, they had this certain, you know, smell. And you could just instantly know that's got haze blood in it.

2:14:16BubblemanRight. Yeah. And they're everywhere. They're talking about the Gainesville. They're talking about the Piff, the New York City haze. We had one in Manitoba just called the Pure Haze. It was a 17 and a half week flowering variety that was just, you know, just haze. It was just rank.

2:14:36AtnLoved it. Loved it. Yeah, well now we're moving back into greenhouses and, you know, with these huge productions you need to stagger your harvests. You can't take it all down at like, you know, halfway through September. You got to have different plants that come in at different times so people can start growing these hazes and just harvest them at the end of the season. I think we'll start seeing a lot.

2:14:58SpeakerOr use darkening systems and then you can time it to the way that's convenient for you.

2:15:04Etienne FontanYeah. Or put it straight into flour as well.

2:15:07SpeakerWell, that's what I was going to say is, you know, because at Positronics, we taught people how to grow. And, you know, this is more for the people listening, but most of the Afghan varieties, skunk type varieties we sold required two to four weeks of pre-grow because once you started the 12-12 cycle, she would stop growing. But the hazes, you could pop them right in and 10 weeks later, pull them out, finish, and you were technically ahead of a plant that needed Four weeks of pre-grow and eight weeks of flower by two weeks.

2:15:40SpeakerYou know, a lot of people weren't looking at it so matter of fact like that, and I watched my friend pull over three pounds of NL5 by Hayes out from 88 plants. He averaged 16 grams a plant with zero days pre-grow, and it won the 1996 Cannabis Cup in the Hydroponic Division, and it was grown in soil. It was that good. Yeah, I was standing next to him when they gave the award to somebody else.

2:16:08SpeakerBut that's how it went back then, you know. Whoever bought the weed and entered it was the person who got the cannabis cup.

2:16:15BubblemanRight. Who was that that went and took that award?

2:16:19SpeakerArian won, and he called it NL5 Haze by Mist. But it was really just NL5 Haze that he always sold. Yeah, it was grown by a guy named Tom. I mean, he's a super, super cool guy. Ran one of the simplest little grows I've ever seen. Had four lights, 88 plants on each side. He rocked them. He would cut clones on the 15th, pop them in on the first, and do it for each room.

2:16:41SpeakerHe was like on a schedule. It was great. I've never seen anyone be as productive, as simply as him. Nice. Efficiency with four lights. A kilo a month with four lights. Easy. And he would keep what was over. You know, you know, really simple, really simple situation. I hadn't seen people growing with zero days pre-growth prior to him doing it. And it was a tip he got from Neville.

2:17:10SpeakerAnd once I tried it, I was like, oh, this is, I'm hooked.

2:17:13BubblemanHmm. Interesting.

2:17:18BubblemanOh my goodness. I think it's time for another bong rip. You're on Hash Church episode 113. 113 Sundays in a row we've gathered and chatted about all things cannabis and some things beaver and some things political and lots of good conversations have occurred, that is for sure.

2:17:39SpeakerI like what I learn on here. You know, I may ruffle your feathers there, Brian, but I love listening to all of this. I mean, I always kind of take a devil's advocate approach to it because I feel like the devil is in the details and we do have to think about it. But I think it's really cool that we have such invigorating conversation about cannabis. I enjoy it.

2:17:59SpeakerI'm glad you guys all come out.

2:18:02AtnYeah, we're right on the cusp of things really changing and this whole thing blowing up even bigger than it has, you know.

2:18:13SpeakerThe future is about to make it so that you can get fresh cannabis from Colombia, from Kenya, from Panama, from any other country that produces flowers organically, delivered to your door for the same price as flowers.

2:18:32Etienne FontanHey, can we get Swaziland on that quickly? We need Swazi on that stat.

2:18:37SpeakerWhy do you want Swazi? Is it the terpenes or what?

2:18:42Etienne FontanI just always loved the high. And I would love to actually, it came through so rarely, but it was one of those that were so distinct. I would buy myself, if a quarter pound comes, I would buy an ounce myself just for my own head stash. So I would like to test it because I was told it had THCV in it. I've heard other rumors, but I would like to actually test it.

2:19:03SpeakerWell, I tested Swazi. I don't remember THCV, but it could have been there. Where I do remember it was in South Africa. Also in Thai, in Afghani, had small amounts. So, yeah.

2:19:21AtnYeah, even Calio had some, didn't it?

2:19:23SpeakerOh yeah, California Orange had small amounts of THCV. We used it for the breeding program to develop pure THCV varieties and were quite successful. You know, it would be really cool if we could identify more modern varieties that don't have it because THCV was the test that Muhammad Asoli used against me to prove that I was, or to try to prove that I was using something

2:19:53SpeakerI actually put the THCV in all the cannabis, Todd, knowing we were going to be able to trap you like that. I love music. But you know, John Morgan brought a list from Carlton Turner's days that showed all the varieties that did not have THCV, but they were more ancient varieties. Yeah, they're more ganja type varieties, but yeah, if you look, you can absolutely find it.

2:20:20AtnWould you say more of the equatorial varieties?

2:20:25SpeakerDon't have THCV. THCV seemed to be centered in, well, in Thailand. I don't know where it came from. Maybe it was from China. I really don't know. Also in South Africa. South Africa, it makes sense because all of the ships came around the tip of South Africa there. And I'm sure sailors had cannabis seeds for hundreds of years. It's not surprising THCV would show up there from Asian sources like Thailand or maybe not Afghanistan.

2:21:05SpeakerBut it's found in Afghanistan because the producers there do not smoke individual plants. They pick plants with the most resin and that resin can be THC or it could be CBD or one of the propyl homologs like THCB or CBDB. And they wouldn't even know because they don't smoke individual plants. They only smoke, they keep the seeds of the plants with the most resin. They don't know what that resin is because they smoke fields full of resin at a time.

2:21:39AtnI think they would, if you were smoking populations, you'd actually be able to purge THCV pretty quickly. Because it is, you know, it's a cannabinoid, it's a CB1 antagonist, right?

2:21:52SpeakerI found it in Thai populations, Afghani populations, South African populations. But, yeah, I didn't look at everything and I don't know where else it was also found.

2:22:08AtnYeah, but being a CB1 antagonist, it would essentially bring down your high, right?

2:22:15SpeakerYeah, but you've got to remember that some people, maybe that's what they want. For example, in Afghanistan and in most of the big hash-producing countries, they dry the plants on the roofs in the sun. Yeah. Now, that isn't friendly for terpenes, but...

2:22:40AtnThey also mix it up with tobacco and then chuff it up in a big old bowl.

2:22:45SpeakerWell, some of them certainly do do that. Yeah. All I'm saying is... Yeah, I mean, either from ignorance or maybe they know what they're doing because when they try to press large volumes of sifted hashish that's too terpene rich, it has storage or transportation problems.

2:23:06AtnYeah, I bet that's not even the case, but I think that's probably an artifact of modern varieties, right? I bet you wouldn't see that with the old school varieties.

2:23:17SpeakerThat would be a great question. If you dried them in the shade and did the whole thing and then tried to see if it had problems. Do you remember when Eagle Bill was selling his gold weed around Amsterdam? He was drying it in the light. I remember. I love Eagle Bill. Ain't no dissing him. I'm trying it on his balcony. Yes, trying it on his balcony, turning it gold.

2:23:45SpeakerHe needed a market niche, so that's what he did.

2:23:48BubblemanHe had gold weed.

2:23:50SpeakerHe had gold weed. That's right. I think it all speaks to the longevity and toughness of the terpenes that they still hang on in some crazy-ass situations. I know in Morocco, way back when, they used kerosene and other nonsense like that to conglomerate the hash and still, you know. I never saw them use kerosene, but I saw them use petroleum wax. In other words, like candle wax, they would throw in per kilo, you know, 10 grams or whatever.

2:24:28SpeakerAnd what it did was it made it so that when the hash was pressed and you clicked it with your finger, it had this really great clicky noise the way good pressed resin does. And it also keeps a flame.

2:24:49SpeakerYeah, right. Whether you smoke it or just leave it on the dresser, right? Either a lamp, a room deodorizer, or get high. Well, if you have really great hash and you twist it into a snake and you light it, it will keep aflame easily. In fact, the problem is if the hash is too good, it wants to drip all down the snake and, you know, so it wants to put itself out.

2:25:14SpeakerIt's so good. But yeah, this candle wax, Moroccan resin was, yeah, it looked the same, but it wasn't. Harsh. To say the least, I think it was poisonous.

2:25:33TonyYeah.

2:25:34SpeakerI never smoked enough of it to find that out. I mean, a few puffs to me said, what is this shit? And put it aside and got something else.

2:25:44BubblemanWell, that soap bar that they were making and sending to the UK and such, that shit for sure was poison.

2:25:51SpeakerOh, yeah, that was petroleum wax. When me and Rob were there, they showed us. They were really proud that they could do this. Look, it melts. And it keeps a flame and it clicks, it clicks. Oh my gosh. We used to call it... But it was just, it was shit. We used to call, on Dead Tour in the 80s, we used to call it sopium.

2:26:20SpeakerThat's what it smells like. That's horrible. Yeah, I remember it being offered to me. Now that you say it, it brings back memories. It's horrible, right? My problem is not smoking it because I've never smoked it. I put a flame to it and checked it out and had people explain what it is to me. Well, you'd always get like some idiot trying to like put like a little bit on top of your bowl.

2:26:45SpeakerAnd once you got that flavor into your bowl, especially a non-glass bowl, oh, good luck getting it out.

2:26:51BubblemanI would love to have seen someone back in those days try to put something in Sam's bowl.

2:26:57SpeakerWell, the funny thing is, I mean, think about it. When people are smoking really, really good, expensive, fine cigars, They won't light it with a candle. No. And there's a reason. Can I just stop for a second? Mark, remember when we were at the milk bag and you were at, Sam had put BHO into your rig and the world didn't come to an end and it was my turn to do a dab and you were like, it's okay?

2:27:26BubblemanHey, sometimes, you know, you gotta let your friends smoke BHO through your rigs.

2:27:31SpeakerYou were so cool about it though. You went from militant to totally like, no, it's going to be okay. Nothing bad's happening. It was great. And then I smoked a kilo of BHO through, no.

2:27:43AtnHey, so speaking of contaminated soap and all that kind of stuff, did you guys catch the news out of Vancouver this week about the contaminated marijuana?

2:27:55BubblemanWell, about Christy Clark trying to spread disinformation, you mean?

2:27:59AtnYeah.

2:28:00BubblemanOh, man, I couldn't believe that shit, especially because, in my opinion, that fentanyl shit is no fucking joke, and we shouldn't be spreading anything that's disinformation in regards to it because there's valid information that needs to be spread. Even the Vancouver PD came out and said that she was totally wrong.

2:28:18SpeakerYeah. It's crazy.

2:28:23AtnIt's crazy. That whole thing is crazy. She's essentially the equivalent of the governor of our province in Canada, so that's like a big deal for her to come out and be spreading that kind of misinformation.

2:28:35BubblemanYeah, saying that people were selling fentanyl-laced cannabis. So one of the first statements I saw is from the VPD.

2:28:47Etienne FontanYeah.

2:28:48BubblemanAnd it was basically... Their statement on Christy Clark's statement, and they were like, no.

2:28:56SpeakerWhat does that functional stuff cost per gram?

2:29:00AtnDefinitely more than it is to grow cannabis.

2:29:04SpeakerThat's what I'm wondering, number one. And number two is, what would be the purpose to get your marijuana customers hooked so they'll have to come back and get more from you? That doesn't make sense because one wrong fentanyl joint and you're not going to be a returning customer. You're going to be a customer of Digger D. O'Dell, Friendly Undertaker, and Last Man to Let You Down. Yeah, well, it depends how much you take, but I mean... Maybe they've got shares of Narcon, you know, the anti-heroin drug that you can take and it'll straighten you out instantly.

2:29:43BubblemanThis is what she actually said. She said, Vancouver police did a major seizure and they found cocaine with fentanyl, heroin with fentanyl, Methamphetamine with fentanyl and marijuana with fentanyl.

2:29:57AtnAnd it's my understanding that they actually have found all the other ones with fentanyl in the mixture, so...

2:30:04BubblemanSure, they're pills, they're powders, you can do that.

2:30:07SpeakerWell, I can see her just adding marijuana to the sentence. Do you remember when they did the scare in Colorado about THC in the water system? And then they got slammed because it was so stupid? It kind of sounds like the same similar thing happening north of the border. And, you know, I mean... It's funny because people have expressed on Ash Church in the comments that we talk about politics too much.

2:30:29SpeakerBut, you know, that has been the boot that has oppressed us.

2:30:34BubblemanYeah. For decades.

2:30:36SpeakerAnd it still does. Looking at this politician slinging mud at us. How can we not try to defend ourselves? It's an old story. It's a very old story. It goes back to Paraquat and Mexican weed. And even before that. When they announced that THC in the water in Colorado, I bought nearly 2,000 acres of land that had lots of water on it. And I'm bummed, man, when they found out that there was no THC.

2:31:08AtnYou distill it out or something?

2:31:10SpeakerIt was there, but somebody chopped it all down.

2:31:15BubblemanHey, welcome back, Tony, in your car, on mute.

2:31:22Etienne FontanWith turps on his fingers, make an old man smell his fingers.

2:31:26BubblemanHe's probably smelling his own fingers right now as he drives.

2:31:31BubblemanChimera just smelled his just when I said that.

2:31:34AtnFlower, flower. Oh, no.

2:31:37TonyAre you talking about me?

2:31:38AtnYes, yes, dick finger.

2:31:42TonyWell, I got so bombed from that video. That turple ball dab hit and a turp rosin hit. I forgot my ID and my health cards.

2:31:55TonyYeah, I can't turn around now. You're going to have to mail them to me, John.

2:31:59SpeakerYeah, well, Johnny and Benny will be back here on Tuesday. Then they'll be back down there on Wednesday.

2:32:06TonyI was kind of hoping like maybe you could mail them to where I'm going to go for Thanksgiving.

2:32:14SpeakerOkay, well, email me the address.

2:32:16TonyYeah. Yeah, because I have no idea how to get back to you and I had no signal until now. So I was like, I'm not going to turn around to go back another hour. But I don't have my driver's license. So it makes it interesting.

2:32:30SpeakerDrive carefully.

2:32:31BubblemanYou know, one of the things I do, and it's just with having a cell phone, I always like, and when I travel especially, like out of country and such, I always photograph my ID. I always just have a little picture of my license or my passport or whatever. And it's only come up one time, but it's been like, it's kind of like having your ID, you know?

2:32:52AtnOh no, definitely do that. That is a great thing. I was just in a situation with... Someone in a weird country and yeah, they had their ID and I didn't have mine and it was a big pain in the ass.

2:33:05SpeakerHey Todd, you want me to take a picture of your driver's license and send it to you on text? Yes, that'd be awesome.

2:33:14BubblemanYeah, that's a good call because that's a lot better than not having your license. At least at that point, it's got your picture and all your data and it leads back to you when they check.

2:33:23TonyWhen they go license, registration, and insurance, you go, well...

2:33:30TonyAbout that.

2:33:32SpeakerThat's not too bad, Tony. About 10 years ago, me and Rob were flying up to St. Petersburg, Russia, and I get at the airport and I pull out my passport, and it's not my passport. It's my wife's passport. So I'm lucky that I live so close to the freaking airport. I jumped in the cab. I raced back here, raced back to the airport, and made it as they were just about to close the doors of the jet.

2:34:01Etienne FontanI'm glad you said that as opposed to saying you look exactly like your wife so you were able to use her ID again.

2:34:07SpeakerI was waiting for it, ATN. If that was true, I probably would not have married her. Wow. You know, I think it was a travel tip back when I first went to Amsterdam, saying to make a photocopy of your passport and leave your passport at the hotel. And that's what got me started with it.

2:34:24BubblemanYeah. I do it all now. I'll photograph my... Thank you for joining us.

2:34:41BubblemanIt makes me feel more comfortable knowing that, you know, even for my license, I have a federal license to possess and grow and process here in Canada. And, you know, one of the important things is having it on you. They want you to have that on you.

2:34:54SpeakerIs that soft paper or a hard plastic card?

2:34:58BubblemanIt's like, it looks kind of like this. This is my one for my growth.

2:35:09BubblemanMy license, my address, but that's basically it right there. It's paper. Yep, big, giant piece of paper, like a ridiculous big piece of paper that they want you to carry around with you.

2:35:21AtnYours is in really good condition.

2:35:23BubblemanWell, it's been on the wall and never been taken off actually. It is in quite good condition.

2:35:29AtnI see a lot of people pulling those things out and they look like linen. They've been folded so many times.

2:35:37BubblemanNo shit. Yeah, mine doesn't get folded. I came folded, and I unfolded it, put it on the wall, and it's been there ever since.

2:35:45AtnWell, they're legal documents, too, so you can't laminate them or anything like that, right?

2:35:50BubblemanExactly, which sucks.

2:35:53AtnYeah.

2:35:54SpeakerAnd what happens when the date is expired? Do you have to return it? Does it have to be destroyed? Interesting that you would ask that. Or do you pay them as collector items?

2:36:05BubblemanWell, this one is already expired, but here in Canada, We fought the government, and well, in this particular case, the law did not win. We fought the law, and we won. So we won the right to have our MMA, our licenses, which of course are no longer kind of MMA, our licenses, but from what I understand from both John Conroy and Kirk Tussauds, they've sort of said, you know, you can go and apply for the ACMPR, but until they deal with All of it that Phelan put in the final judgment, all of these Health Canada, there's a certain timeline you have to fit into, but I do fit into it.

2:36:52BubblemanAnd these things that are expired are basically not expired. It's what a lot of people have been growing under for the last, I'd say close to two years.

2:37:00SpeakerOkay. And before that, how long were they good for? A year, two years, three years? One year.

2:37:06AtnOne year.

2:37:07SpeakerSo that means there must be a bunch of old copies that did run out before the extensions now.

2:37:13AtnOh yeah.

2:37:14SpeakerAnd what happened to those? Were they destroyed? Were they taken back? Did you have to turn it in to get a new one?

2:37:21BubblemanNo, I think that you just throw the document away. They don't require the document to be given back.

2:37:27SpeakerOkay, so, yeah, because, no, you know me, I collect this kind of cannabis paraphernalia. And I think licenses would be cool.

2:37:38BubblemanOh, I'm sure we could find you some.

2:37:39AtnYeah, and I know someone that would happily give you a license.

2:37:46BubblemanWhy don't you just come to Canada and get your own dude in your own name? We'll get you a license, man.

2:37:51SpeakerI'll do that, but I need to arrange to have a shovel on the American side.

2:37:58BubblemanI'm going to put you in a 200-light show, Sam. We're going to split that shit right down the middle.

2:38:08SpeakerI need the shovel so that I can dig a hole underneath the border.

2:38:14BubblemanRight, right. No, no, we've got all that sorted out, man. Don't worry about that.

2:38:18SpeakerAnd when you're going south to north, that is the tradition. Yes. So, Sam, do you want a, I have one of the very first Colorado medical marijuana patient licenses issued, and it looks like a title for a car. It's Totally made to look like a Colorado State title. That sounds really cool. I've got one of the, I think it was 20 or 30 or maybe 40 at the most, Colorado State Marijuana Tax Stamps.

2:38:55SpeakerYeah, actually, I think these very first licenses that I got had an embossed text stamp on it of some sort. I remember when we first got it in the mail, and I thought, this is going to be a collector's item someday because it was so fancy. Mine is a quarter ounce and was $25.

2:39:17SpeakerMine was unlimited, as needed, and that's because I had a good doctor, and he wrote me a thing saying as needed. It explained to him that I was juicing marijuana every day, and I needed to get a juice a couple of kilos a day, so he just wrote on the license as needed. I bought mine from the Colorado State Revenue Tax Department. I have them from maybe, I think, 26 states in America that issued marijuana tax stamps in the last 20, maybe 30 years.

2:39:59SpeakerWell, I'll be glad to turn you on to my old Colorado license. It was only a year. It expired. And if you enjoy collecting those kinds of things, it's all yours.

2:40:09BubblemanAbsolutely. Sounds really nice. Into the museum it goes.

2:40:14AtnYeah, quite a museum it is. Unbelievable.

2:40:20SpeakerYou should start a hash church museum. I mean, no question. You've maybe heard of the hash museum in Amsterdam? Oh, I've been to it. Okay, well, I started it. Oh yeah, I didn't know. It was started by me and a friend. It was actually owned at that time by the owners of the coffee shop Ecstasy that was just around the corner. Oh yeah. And then Ben bought the property and bought the museum and put a lot of money, time, and energy into it.

2:40:53SpeakerCreated what it is not only in Amsterdam, but the really jewel of the museums is the one in Barcelona. It's just freaking amazing. And I have to try to go there before I sign up. And I tell you this as a cannabis collector because I've been collecting longer than Ben, but he had more financial resources than me, especially the last decade.

2:41:26AtnThe Barcelona Museum is absolutely off the hook. I suggest that anybody that hasn't been definitely go. Incredible. You have to do Hash Church there.

2:41:36BubblemanHow cool was that?

2:41:38SpeakerNo, it was beautiful. Yeah, it was awesome. It was surreal. If only we had faster Wi-Fi that day.

2:41:46Etienne FontanI know. That was a little bit of a, but nonetheless. It was fun being part of the exhibit and people coming by and looking at us getting high and like, can we get high too? Yeah, we're just doing this thing over here.

2:42:01SpeakerRight? That's right. We were smoking too. That's right.

2:42:08SpeakerI hope that neighborhood gets even more gentrified and it becomes a major attraction because believe it or not, the museum in Amsterdam gets more traffic flow than the one in Barcelona. By far, by far. But it's in the middle of Centrum. It's a little different. And it's established as a tourist point. Barcelona is a gem. And, I mean, the one in Amsterdam is cool. But the one in Barcelona is beyond cool.

2:42:40SpeakerIt's fucking amazing.

2:42:42Etienne FontanIt's priceless. Both of them are priceless, honestly. Just in the history that they have.

2:42:47SpeakerI'll put a link up to over a thousand photos of the museum I took. That was, I was there when Ben opened it. The day he opened it. Originally, when the Hash Museum opened, it was me and a guy named Bob Weir. Now, Bob, I can't remember his last name. He was a Welsh guy. And he printed marijuana stickers for the coffee shops. And then the government here made it illegal to advertise with stickers in the coffee shops.

2:43:18SpeakerSo then he... Opened up this little museum and they charged a little, almost 75% of what was in it was from my personal collection. And then a year or so later, Ben bought it and yeah, everything else is history. I mean.

2:43:40Etienne FontanYeah, but you also have your own collection, which you've amassed that is its own museum in its own right. Yes.

2:43:46SpeakerYeah, I do have my own collection. It's way more than can fit in my home, so most of it's boxed up. But yes, my original idea was to become a cannabis multi-billionaire. And then as the multi-billionaire of cannabis, I would open up museums in every country. But I never quite made it that far. I didn't get to billions was the problem. I just posted a link in the hashtag group of my photo, 700 plus photos of this amazing museum.

2:44:21BubblemanAnd I don't know if you guys can see this, but I've been playing the museum video since you guys have been talking about it.

2:44:26SpeakerYeah, that's bringing back memories, bro. That was a great day. Absolutely. Love you, man. That was fun.

2:44:34Etienne FontanWell, the history that he has contained there, the pipes itself is staggering. And then some of the art on the wall, then the looms that he has for actual, the hat making from the old combs to the spindles. I mean, it's just... It's first class. I've never seen any. I've seen drawings of these things in books, but to actually see them physically all in one space is pretty awe-inspiring.

2:45:05Etienne FontanCannabis related wise. I geeked out every turn I went.

2:45:09SpeakerI used to have a much better collection than Ben, but I'm afraid mine is definitely not as good as Ben's. Ben's is fucking amazing. And he spent a lot of money on hemp too. I mean, I have a huge hemp collection. I have hemp breaking tools and I've got a lot of the hemp processing equipment. But yeah, what can I say? I mean, I love his stuff.

2:45:35SpeakerAnd I think the one here is when people have come to visit me, you know, a famous scientist or whoever from Raphael Mishulam, et cetera, I often ask them, would you like to go see the museum? And almost always they say, oh yeah.

2:45:54BubblemanVery cool. Well, that video is up there for anyone that wants to check it out. And Todd's got his photos up as well.

2:46:00SpeakerCan I show some of the pictures I took of Sam's label collection? And Sam could talk about them a little bit.

2:46:10Etienne FontanI saw this collection and was wowed. I mean, how did you access these for one? Because for one, patches, some of these things are just rare.

2:46:19SpeakerI was the first person in the world that had a marijuana seed company. So I kind of knew a lot of California growers. And where I met really a lot of people was at the Santa Rosa I know it went on for 24 years and when I was there was like maybe 1980 or something around then.

2:46:52SpeakerAll the growers would be entering their cannabis to this event. This was strictly underground. You had to know somebody to get into it. Put you all inside of a sealed van and drove you to a secluded property with a really big giant house or something. Beautiful events, really, really tasteful, super, super high class. And they would, to be honest, in my book, the cannabis wasn't what I would consider the best because what was really important to them was photographic beauty and bag quality.

2:47:32SpeakerWhereas, you know, to me, that's not so important. But I understand that they're in the commercial trade. So, you know, I'm just an epicurean snob. You know, can you see my screen, Sam? Yes. So could you talk a little about these? You know, the day I was with Sam, you had me take photos. Somebody sent me this one from Hawaii.

2:47:55Etienne FontanWell, the interesting thing about that plant at the center is a plant that, to my knowledge, only grows there and above 10,000 feet there at the top of Haleakala. So it's nice that it's actually foreshadowed by probably some Maui back in the day.

2:48:11SpeakerWow. There's quite a few of them. Books and books of them. I love this one. What year is it from? Uh, shit. Uh, let me think. I would say the mid-70s to, uh,

2:48:39SpeakerEarly 80s. I can't remember the exact date I got it from.

2:48:43Etienne FontanWere they harder to find blank like this as opposed to with things written in and the net weight, etc. ?

2:48:50SpeakerYes, because I wanted a virgin one. Some people collected ones that were a lot of more self-adhesive stickers. But mostly what they did was they stuck one of these in a Ziploc with your ounce of weed or your pound of weed, whatever it is that you were doing. They had different size ones, small ones for ounces. Bigger ones for pounds.

2:49:19Etienne FontanAnd these were just labels. These aren't stickers or were they stickers as well?

2:49:22SpeakerThey were both. They were both stickers and labels. It depends on the one. So is this one and the Chili Express, are they mocking the smuggling? No, this is imported from Mexico. Were they smuggling it with chilies? No, it was just Chili Express.

2:49:43SpeakerThe original Hayes? Yes, this is the original Haze.

2:49:51SpeakerSorry, hold on. I'm realizing that my life is not just your label suddenly.

2:50:03SpeakerWow. That one was put out by a peace and ecology activist group. And yeah.

2:50:24SpeakerIt was amazing how many of them there were. The original Scentsy logo. I think I've got maybe 400.

2:50:36SpeakerJust amazing. It would be nice to see your collection on display somewhere.

2:50:42Etienne FontanYeah, those should be mounted so that, yeah, they could be easily shown.

2:50:46SpeakerIt looks like they were making them all over the place too, not just Santa Cruz and such, but like Mexico and Columbia and other places. That one's from Northern California.

2:50:55Etienne FontanWell, just the underground art itself. I mean, these artists don't even put their names on these things because a lot of these things are anonymous art.

2:51:02SpeakerThere's one or two with an artist's name. Dude, Dancing Seeds playing jazz is a first for me, for sure.

2:51:09BubblemanHey, do you have the Beaverland Dam ones, Todd? Yes.

2:51:13SpeakerAbsolutely. Oh, I thought you were asking me. Excuse me.

2:51:17BubblemanThose are kind of like my favorite ones, I think. They kind of seem to have each year.

2:51:22SpeakerYeah, Dam Good, Dam Fine. Dam Near and Near Invisible.

2:51:27BubblemanDamn close, damn near invisible. So right on, we brought the beavers back to Hash Church. I knew we could do it, guys.

2:51:34Etienne FontanI knew we could do it.

2:51:35SpeakerThe bees have already had their glands removed.

2:51:39Etienne FontanAll beavers, no anus.

2:51:41SpeakerAnd what is this one? What is this one? I don't know. It must be some hippie dog sown seeds. What's funny is, look at the picture again. It's talking about what everybody thinks of as cannabis sativa. In other words, narrow-leaf drug varieties. But if you look at it, it says cannabis indica. I was ahead of my time by generations. And look where the star is. The star is down by Goa.

2:52:19SpeakerNo, actually, it's in a city called Munnar. It's in Kerala, in the mountains where they grow tea.

2:52:27Etienne FontanYeah, Goa's down at the southern tip.

2:52:30SpeakerRight, you see the stars quite close to the southern tip, that's why. Goa's north of Kerala.

2:52:38BubblemanLike how many hours?

2:52:41SpeakerIt depends, by boat, by airplane, by ship. Just by walking.

2:52:47TonyWalking?

2:52:49SpeakerI've never walked it. It could easily be a few hundred miles. Triple J Ranch. Was this California, Santa Cruz? No, that's not Santa Cruz. That's a Bay Area. Look at the picture in the background. Oh, the bridge, yeah. Oh, I see the bridge. Oh, I see this. Oh, I have this view. Oh, that's funny. Right below her head. Not that far. It's a little bit north of you, but on the ridge there.

2:53:16SpeakerYep. Wow.

2:53:19BubblemanLet me see. We got more. We got more.

2:53:21SpeakerRocky Raccoon.

2:53:23BubblemanOh, yeah. Con Muchos Compadres. Very good, very good.

2:53:31Etienne FontanI hope the weed was better than that art.

2:53:35SpeakerI thought I had more of the beaver ones, to be honest. Grower's Choice. These must have been really 79. Copyrighted. Must have been stickers.

2:53:50BubblemanOh, I thought that said Terps. It says Tops. They would have been ahead.

2:53:53SpeakerI'll go back to where I see it. Oh, Tops. Terps. Oh, look at the Eden Heshey Center one. Okay. Hold on. Is it in front of me? Oh, yes, it is. Oh, there's two of them. This is the card. And this was the party Sam said he was at. Go ahead, Sam. Yep. Also, I thought there was the back of the card that tells what it is.

2:54:18SpeakerBut yeah, I was at that party. I think it was in late 71. Or was it 72? December 25th, 72, it says. 72. There we go. Yep. Free Cosmic Hashish Party. There's nothing bad about that. Hashish was still legal in Nepal at that time. This is the back of the card that you just mentioned. There we go. This was what was available. See, I was staying at the In Eden Hashish Center.

2:54:53SpeakerSo all I had to do was pound on the floor with my foot and they'd send up somebody and I could order any of those things that are on that menu by the, I mean, it costs nothing.

2:55:06Etienne FontanTiger Tail must have been interesting.

2:55:08SpeakerWell, yeah. And I never imagined it was going to disappear as fast as it did. I mean, you could still get stuff there, but I mean, this was out in the open with all the different varieties from all the different areas of Nepal that produce quality. So it was kind of amazing.

2:55:31BubblemanTotally amazing.

2:55:33SpeakerYeah, I was pretty blown away to go through your collection. I was kind of shocked by it, really. I didn't realize how much branding had been happening before the Reagan era drug war.

2:55:48SpeakerYeah, those tag stamps on the right there, Sam? Yeah, but they're not real. That's just, it's, I mean, it's a real underground label, but it's not a real tag stamp.

2:56:03SpeakerWow, that's incredible. The haze used to be sold in redwood boxes with a blue sticker on the sides. Can I ask you, what is this National Institute of Mental Health label?

2:56:20SpeakerOh, it's from a bottle of THC. So it's for their lab work, for their experiments, for calibrating their machines, for proving that marijuana is bad.

2:56:44SpeakerThat's old. A lot coming out of Hawaii.

2:56:50Etienne FontanIt's interesting that they would make fake stamps to go with the fake label.

2:56:55SpeakerYeah, those were actually in a can. So it was like a peanut can.

2:57:02Etienne FontanSo it was a circular can that that fit in.

2:57:04SpeakerExactly.

2:57:05Etienne FontanSo that was at the bottom of the can or on the inside of the lid?

2:57:08SpeakerIt was on the top of the lid and the long strip one was around the can. This is pretty incredible. Harvest Moon Ball. Yep. I think that's the one where I won first place with skunk number one.

2:57:26BubblemanAs opposed to the other one that you won first place with skunk number one?

2:57:31SpeakerWell, they were both the Harvest Ball, different years. And then they asked me, please don't enter anymore. What year was that, may I ask? Here's another one. Look back on it. It'll say right on it. Oh, this one's 1984. Yep. And this other one says... 83 or 85? It's like an annual. It was 83.

2:57:58SpeakerReally incredible history.

2:58:03SpeakerNorCal, that's really cool too.

2:58:09BubblemanBy American Herbsman.

2:58:11SpeakerAmerican Herbsman indeed, huh? A perfect snow. So physical. Santa Cruz.

2:58:21BubblemanHey. Expertly nurtured and cured.

2:58:26SpeakerSo I saw that Panama, so is Panama Red completely gone as a genetic or is there predominant genetics that have... Well, the real question is how much time was Panama a major producer and how much time was it major transporter, transshipper? I mean, nobody's really clarified that, but if... It would be polluted. There's not going to be a pure Panama variety anymore. I mean, there's not even pure Mexican varieties or pure Jamaican varieties or pure Moroccan varieties.

2:59:03AtnWell, maybe not in the wild, but I'm sure there are some in collections. Well, here's my two cents.

2:59:10SpeakerThat's what I meant, in wild, exactly. Let me say this about that. When you want to make a red variety of hash, you take the trichromes out in the sun and you let them get oxidized until they turn red. And then you proceed with red hash oil and mix them together and you got Panama red, you got all the different kinds of red hash you can think of are made that way with oxidized trichromes.

2:59:39SpeakerWell, for me, it's not the color, it's the surface content. You know, this is what I'm... I'm just talking about the way everybody else... Put that other one back up. That's imported from Thailand. This is Thailand? Yes. So Thailand was making labels, and this one over here, I wanted to question... This was Westerners working in Thailand.

3:00:05TonyYeah, yeah.

3:00:05SpeakerWhat was this one?

3:00:09SpeakerOh, that was on Ashish coming from the Mujahideen when they were fighting the Russians.

3:00:18Etienne FontanThat's Afghani.

3:00:19SpeakerIt's NSA church now.

3:00:26BubblemanI'm sorry. Oh, there's a beaver. There's the damn close one that's got the helicopter above it. Hold on.

3:00:31SpeakerI'll go to it, bro. I'll go to it. Oh, there it is.

3:00:35BubblemanYeah, damn close.

3:00:39Bubbleman100% organic. Huh, what year? The cannabis plant is a scarecrow? It doesn't have any year, but I think these are all 80, like, I think he's got from like 80 to 85.

3:00:49SpeakerI can't see the plants because he's camouflaged them.

3:00:52Etienne FontanYep. I'd love to know who has those original paintings.

3:00:57SpeakerI don't know the artist. I knew the grower. Can you tell us a little about this one? Yep. It's, again... Cannabis indica, correct, or wide leaf variety, correct, and it's hashish type seeds, wide leaf, heavy narcotic, and yeah, some people like it, it's not my favorite, but when it was new, people flipped over it.

3:01:32BubblemanI like that you just got this picture of a bud and you're like, you know what? Let's just make a huge logo that covers the bud almost completely.

3:01:41SpeakerThe original for that art was more than three feet tall. Wow.

3:01:48AtnThat's pretty leafy looking good.

3:01:51SpeakerOh, man, it sucked. That's why I covered it, man. Let's be honest.

3:01:56AtnWell, it was hashish seeds, right? They weren't marijuana seeds.

3:02:00Etienne FontanI like the little skunk on the hookah, though. That's really cute.

3:02:03SpeakerYeah, that was good. So what year was this Sacred Seeds there, Sam? 1975, but really started boogieing in 76.

3:02:19AtnI like that logo.

3:02:21SpeakerYeah, I do too. That's cool.

3:02:23AtnClassic.

3:02:24SpeakerYeah. Whoever picked that had some good taste. Well, didn't Mrs. Skunkman draw that? Some of the art, yes, she drew. And she did the original brochures, but the seed had lost. Iron Rodent. Look at this is when growers supported legalization.

3:02:49AtnDamn fine. I'm the kid with the boom box.

3:02:54BubblemanAre those beavers? Yeah, those are beavers, man. This is beaver brand. Damn fine beavers at that.

3:03:00AtnGot like the Michael J. Fox.

3:03:02BubblemanGot a bunch of them here. All the next five are all Beaverland dams. Beaver brand dams.

3:03:08Etienne FontanYeah, there's that one. There's the sitting at home one. I take it this guy grew close to a dam. Damn good, bro.

3:03:19SpeakerMost of these people started growing and their lives changed from, you know, $20,000 a year to, well, let's say 10 or 100 times that.

3:03:39SpeakerAnd the California state government flipped out.

3:03:42Etienne FontanSo was that damn good one? Was that an early one? And then they became more cartoonish as a Beaver character later?

3:03:49SpeakerYep. Also, too, there was one there for The One, which was... That was the oil, wasn't it? Yeah, it was one of the very first hash oils produced in the world. The One. Is it here? Yeah. Which one is it? The very first one. It's right in the right-hand lower corner with the... The drop... Yeah, the first one was a product called Smash made out of weed in Mexico.

3:04:19SpeakerAnd then there was The One, which I'm not sure what it was made out of, but it was a much better product. Then they made Son of One, and that sort of sucked.

3:04:30Etienne FontanWouldn't that be two?

3:04:31SpeakerThey called it Son of One.

3:04:39SpeakerBut they gave you a little glass hash oil pipe. So, I mean, it was very sophisticated. It was almost as good as honey oil, but not quite as good as... A few years later, there was Afghan Brotherhood of Love honey oil that was butt-chicker. Thanks for sharing those, Todd. Those are awesome. I thank you to Sam for letting me sit there on his couch and take pictures and smoke his hash.

3:05:09AtnYeah, it's quite a collection. I was over there and we got into the Marinol bottles. Marinol bottles from like every different, you know, iteration of the

3:05:24SpeakerThey were schedule one when they were schedule two. I don't even know what schedule they are now, if they're schedule three or whatever.

3:05:31AtnLet me see if I can find that. I'll put it up.

3:05:35SpeakerBut yeah, and five milligrams, 10 milligrams. I forget what the strongest, oh, 2.5 is, so 10 is the strongest one.

3:05:47Etienne FontanSam, you need to mount that collection though, seriously. I mean, I have an art background, art history and stuff like that, and that has definitely, all that art needs to be protected.

3:05:57SpeakerI've been collecting cannabis medicinal bottles since the late 70s.

3:06:03Etienne FontanBut the art itself though, I mean, you need to have that, it needs to be displayed. People don't have any idea that, you know, even this stuff was even available or around. I had heard rumors of these things and I had seen, because we used to sell the Rick Griffin shirts and things like that, which I saw some pictures of, you know, like the Super Skunk and some others.

3:06:23Etienne FontanLike that. But I had heard rumors of these things. And yours is the only collection I have seen that I've only seen people show like, oh, here's my one or here's this. And you have an extensive collection that is historical in significance. I mean, seriously.

3:06:41SpeakerNo, I understand this. And yeah, yeah. It'll happen. Hopefully, yes. I mean, I have an incredible collection of these. I stopped maybe 10, 20 years ago. But the newer stuff's not so hard to get. It's the old stuff that is gone.

3:07:08Etienne FontanYeah, the collection you have, I've never seen the majority of those pieces. I've only seen like two.

3:07:15AtnYeah, it's pretty incredible. It really is.

3:07:19AtnI want these ones, this little terry cloth towel that they had made for the doctors that whoever was in marketing decided to get this tie-dye towel.

3:07:29Etienne FontanOh my God, that is so awesome.

3:07:31SpeakerYeah, I collected that about 10 years ago. He's got a dronabinol one too.

3:07:42BubblemanCovering all the bases. Well, you know what? We rocked a solid three hours. I really dug the early intensity part of the conversation. Sorry we got too intense for some of you, but hey, sometimes that's how it goes on Hash Church. And I definitely loved Todd sharing... The labels, Skunk Man Sam's label collection. Obviously appreciate all of you guys showing up for another episode of Hash Church.

3:08:05BubblemanI think we rocked out a solid three hours plus. Yeah, I guess just really thank everyone for coming and watching. We've got another great show next week with a bunch of new guests, a couple of different doctors that Dr. Natasha is bringing in. And I believe actually Rob is coming in next week to do a presentation on his turkey project that he's been doing in Turkey. So he's going to come in early, 9 o'clock a.m. and get that started.

3:08:33BubblemanSo he will have the floor for an hour or two or whatever he requires, and we'll look forward to that. And otherwise, thanks for coming out, everybody.

3:08:42SpeakerNext week, too, I'll be sure to give everybody a free Marinol pill.

3:08:47BubblemanOh, there you go. Man, you're top notch, dude. Tony, Todd, Mark, Indra, Youngman Sam, Etienne, Chimera, thank you guys. And for tomorrow, happy birthday, Johnny B. I hope it's a great day for you, brother. Peace out, everybody.