Intellectual Property and Cannabis Innovation

0:02BubblemanAll right, we did it. We made it. Hello, everybody, and welcome to episode 107 of Hash Church. Let me tell you, this was a difficult one. Yes, the power has been taken out. Sorry, not the power, the fiber optic lines, the internet lines got taken out, the phone lines for my area that I live in. And because of it, we were unable to get this going at my house.

0:26BubblemanSo I am over at a friend's house now here. Let me just send out these invitations real quick. Make sure that we get those sent out. We were unable to get this going at my house, so I am over at a friend's house now here.

0:39ToddLet me just send... All right, there we go.

0:43BubblemanAll right, everybody. Yeah, we are live, Johnny B. I'm going to add some people into the room here. It'd be great if this muted. All right, there we go. Get that off. Get the Mr. Davis link. I'm on my smaller computer. It's always harder to do on this little tiny laptop. Let's see if we can send that email out so Mr. Davis can get in here with us as well.

1:10BubblemanHey, welcome, Todd McCormick, to the chat room. If you're here, I don't know if you are, but if you are, welcome, Todd, and welcome 361 people that are in the room right now, as well as Mr. Scaldone. Nice and quick. Nice and quick. All right. Mr. Johnny Davis is in the house. Can anyone talk so I can assure that any of you are actually here and I can hear you because currently I can't see.

1:39BubblemanOh, there we go. I can hear you too. Excellent. How are you doing this morning, John?

1:44Todd MccormickFine as a frog's hair.

1:48BubblemanYou know, I was totally stressed out trying to get this happening. Last night I was very stressed out as the internet was still not up at my house. Welcome, Todd.

1:58ToddGood morning, brother.

1:59BubblemanLook like you're on the green screen there. It's beautiful.

2:04ToddJust outside. It's so nice today. Very nice. Very nice.

2:08BubblemanHere is a little bit... A little bit rainy, but it's Thanksgiving here in Canada. We're having a big Thanksgiving dinner tonight at my house with some friends. So just had to get this hash church in the bag, and I was having a lot of stress with no internet. I tried calling some local motels that are nearby to see if I could rent a room and come and just use their internet, but they had no rooms available.

2:30BubblemanSo it was started to call friends up and see if... I almost actually called Johnny B up and said, man, I'm going to have to come out to Abbotsford, Johnny B, but I made it here.

2:40ToddI'm not in Abbotsford though. Impressive, man. I'm in Duncan.

2:47BubblemanYeah, I made it happen nonetheless, Todd. I'm telling you. It was like even this morning when I came here to get it all going, I opened my laptop and I guess my son was watching it last night because there's no internet and there was like a couple of shows on the laptop. So he basically killed it dead, so dead that plugging it in today after five minutes that it was still not powering up and I was like, you got to be kidding me that now my computer is not going to work.

3:12BubblemanI got no internet.

3:13ToddThat is unbelievable.

3:15BubblemanIt's pretty unbelievable.

3:16ToddWell, dedication. You know, after 107 shows, this is the first time I've seen you start late, so.

3:22BubblemanI think we did late one other time. I think we did late one or two other times, like a 10 o'clock or sort of. It sure saved my ass this morning. Jamaica. Oh, Jamaica. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, people are saying thank you for coming through.

3:40ToddWell, good morning, everybody.

3:42BubblemanYes, indeed. Welcome Skunk Man Sam to the room.

3:45Skunk ManHowdy, howdy, howdy.

3:47BubblemanSam I am. All of you characters. It's nice to spend a couple hours every morning with these characters. I'm not going to lie.

3:57Todd MccormickI'd rather like it. That picture is a small load of your favorite stuff. It's probably about 20 kilos there.

4:12BubblemanYou sent me a picture one time, and it was the same color as that stuff, and it was inside a giant pipe. Like, the pipe was like, I don't know, a foot and a half in diameter or something, just stuffed full. And it was all like moony sort of moon rock style.

4:30Todd MccormickYeah, a lot of people talk about that moon rock or moonstone thing like they invented it, but the real story about that is, as you're recovering... Thank you for joining us.

5:04Todd MccormickThank you. Thank you.

5:29Todd MccormickAnd then collecting it at the bottom and getting some really beautiful crystals that way. Because I was busy trying to figure out how to make turps on my own. And I finally did manage. But gee whiz, what a pain in the ass it is to do all that. Stick it in the thing, make everything go to 100 below and then start, you know what. But... Love it.

6:00Todd MccormickYou got me started on that. I haven't smoked a joint in five days. I've sworn off smoking doobers now. I only want my little electric dab maker.

6:09BubblemanThat's pretty incredible. Hey, welcome. Welcome David Hutchinson to the room. Hey, Marcus. Hey, nice for you to join us today. I know we don't get to, hey, it looks like a really beautiful day where you're at as well. I am South Surrey, White Rock area.

6:27David HutchinsonGood to see you, David.

6:28Skunk ManHey, good to see you. Hey, that's John. Good to see you, Todd, as well. I believe you had a birthday.

6:35BubblemanYes, happy birthday to Todd. Happy Earth Strong, as they say in Jamaica.

6:40ToddHappy birthday, Todd. I do like getting older. I think it's an accomplishment. It's much better than dying.

6:47BubblemanYeah, I think Tom Petty said, if you're not getting older, you're dead.

6:50ToddI think it was Bob Dylan. He who is not easy being born is busy dying.

6:57BubblemanHey, that link, that link that Kevin McKernan sent up of that TED Talk guy, I know you sent, you put up a pretty funny one afterwards, but I was, I kind of liked what that guy was saying about the remix aspect of how we make things better in life and how, you know, sort of, I think he had put some other things up in regards to patenting and how the patenting is kind of an ability to sort of close that ability of opening the door to really, you know, the radical openness that we practice here on Hash Church even, I, I actually watched that.

7:28ToddI watched it too, you know, but, you know, I know Brian Burton, the guy that made the Gray album, and technically under law, he's not even legally allowed to have a copy of that anymore. But, you know, look, he's gone on to make his own music with Gnarls Barkley and stuff, and anyone who is a creator doesn't want to see someone come along and steal their work.

7:47ToddAnd, you know, a lot of what these intellectual property laws are for is to stop rich and powerful people Thank you for watching.

8:15BubblemanAnd Dub was a remix of songs that already existed, but recreated those songs into a different way. And I think you would have a hard time convincing a Jamaican that Dub is jacking people's stuff and reselling it. Because it really is recreated.

8:30ToddWith music though particularly, you know, there's only so, look, you know, there's so many plagiarist cases in music history that it's easy to point to case after case of people even being, there was a song that I'm never listening to with a couple people I never heard, but they ended up paying, Was it Lionel Richie or was it one of the guys that the guy that got shot in the driveway by his dad?

8:55ToddThey ended up paying his estate so much money because the guy confessed to listening to the music while he was writing the song and being influenced by him and giving him props. And then the family heard that, came along, sued him and got a big chunk of that song because he had plagiarized their dad's work. That happens all the time.

9:14Todd MccormickListen, you know how many people are using my work? I thought for a second there that Bubbleman was trying to shame me for a minute there. But hey, I'm all with Todd. Listen, people have been taking my work for, I don't know, how long? And I never mind it when people are using it to take it just for themselves. It's the people who started making equipment and making millions of dollars based on my patent and my equipment that upset me.

9:47Todd MccormickBut, you know, people who are home doing it for themselves, hey, I'm making a desktop model just for you. Never needs gas again.

9:56ToddThat is so awesome. I think there's slightly a different conversation here though, John. When you do something that's altruistic, like you give something away on the internet under an anonymous name years before you write a patent on that process for other processes, Thank you for joining us.

10:28ToddThank you for joining us.

10:44ToddYou know, I'm anonymous and I want you to take my song and I want you to go make music. That's not what happened, you know?

10:50Todd MccormickSo there's two sides of it. I did that with pure intentions. You know, the Hare Krishnas got busted. I've told this story before. I couldn't get honey oil anymore. And since I couldn't get honey oil, I figured no one else could. So I came up with it. Once I had it working kind of well, I posted it in several places. And I was hoping that it would reintroduce honey oil to the world.

11:15Todd MccormickNow, as the years have passed, I turned it into a commercial patent. And my commercial patent is very highly tuned. It's got 10 years of research into both the equipment and the process. And I don't appreciate people stealing that. I don't mind these little... Honey Bee Extractors and the garbage that they sell. But I'm going to make from desktop to 5,000 kilo models. And obviously the fact that we could make a 5,000 kilo model clears up the fact that it's not a fucking mile long pipe made by pipe welders who see everything as a pipe.

11:55Todd MccormickAnd that's what's going on with it. It'll be ready soon. The first three sizes are being made as we speak. And believe me, the people who get into them We'll be indemnified in the future because I have been talking to the state fire marshals in all of the states involved and they're all intensely interested. They've all seen the patent. They all agree that people shouldn't be running anything less equipment-wise and know-how-wise and they are tapping me for training for this.

12:30Todd MccormickSo it's going to change.

12:34BubblemanRoss saves lives.

12:36ToddYou know, I think that's cool, John. It's a different conversation than what we were talking about earlier with intellectual property. What the video was basically saying is that people that write movies like Harry Potter are going to be able to have to deal with other people coming along and making movies exactly based on that book because there's no intellectual property rights. So your ideas would be unenforceable and you would have to cut a deal with whoever was friendly enough to give you a little chunk of whatever they made Thank you for joining us.

13:34ToddYou did both in a way. Here you're saying that you came along and gave away the recipe, but then you're saying you also patented it so you could protect your intellectual property in another way years later.

13:45Skunk ManThat's no problem because I'm definitely the god of dry sip.

13:50BubblemanHey, that is, you know what, the funny thing is, and I said this the other day, I said this the other day, it always sounds very egotistical and conceited when someone says something like that if it's not true, but when it's true, it just sounds true.

14:08BubblemanI would not deny either of your statements, Sam, for certain. You definitely started this Dry Sift game the way it is today. I'll never forget taking that picture at your house and being allowed to post that photo because in you allowing me to take a simple photo, it literally changed the face of the Dry Sift community in this world. And that's definitely no light thing.

14:36Skunk ManPart of the reason is I'm the world's worst photographer. Otherwise, I could have posted it 10 years before that, but my pictures stuck.

14:47BubblemanYou know great photographers, though. For whatever reason, you blessed me with the ability to take that picture, and I do appreciate it. I will never forget how excited I was in your living room, set up at your kitchen table, as I was about to push the back button on the camera and see what actually was there for the first time, and man, when that screen lit up, I'm sure you remember me going like, holy shit, this is completely insane.

15:13BubblemanI'd never seen that before, and it really changed my outcome on what I thought was possible, so I do thank you for that.

15:22Skunk ManI'll be thankful when everything is that quality.

15:27BubblemanYeah, well that's... That's the mission in all of this, obviously, guys. I mean, not to toot our own horns, but to get everyone on the right sort of platform that they're able to do this regardless of what method of extraction that they prefer, whether it's an oil extraction or a dry sift or a wet wash or whatever. We just want you to be able to know that you can...

15:48BubblemanMake sure you're growing the best possible cultivars, controlling the variables in the best possible way, and of course, processing and curing and all the way down the line. There's a lot of different areas where you can mess this shit up.

16:00Todd MccormickMark, I'm looking right in your eye now, and I'm saying, have you yet tried my aforementioned SIF method yet that… We have talked about and worked on. No, you still haven't got around to it. No, no. Listen, it's going to compete a bit with Sam's, and I'm interested in having you put that to work.

16:28BubblemanI think that it's definitely going to get put to work. It's just a matter of figuring out the logistics. I have a hard enough time just getting a hash church going each week.

16:38Skunk ManWell, I can tell you, I can make 99.9% resin heads, but my yields suck, and I'll be the first one to admit it. I think both of your techniques... If you can make 99.9% resin heads and a high yield, then I guarantee you it's interesting.

16:58BubblemanYeah, even if he can only get 90 plus percent heads, your process and his process will obviously potentially work together in a very nice way. So it's just a matter of getting it finally done.

17:15Todd MccormickHere's the difference as I see it. The dry sift method is very careful. Thank you for joining us.

17:51Todd MccormickFractionalizing it, shall we say, may prove to be an amazing adjunct. So let's see.

17:59Skunk ManWhen I use my method, I do not manicure it. I use whole entire plants.

18:05Todd MccormickSo do I. That's what I'm saying. We take a whole plant, put it in a 50-gallon drum, pour in a little liquid nitrogen, smash it up with a 2x4 until it's dust, and then we proceed from there.

18:20Skunk ManI really look forward for Mark or somebody examining it with a microscope and telling me what percentage of resin heads it is. It sounds like it's really interesting.

18:32Todd MccormickIt is definitely interesting. It is, but, you know, enough said. I'm having my hand slapped.

18:41BubblemanHey, welcome, Kevin.

18:47BubblemanOh, I don't think we can hear you. We got you on mute.

18:49KevinThere we go. There we go. Got it. Hello there. How are you doing today? Good, good. So I think I owe Todd a little reply on the whole IP story because I'm an utter hypocrite for bringing it up. I have a lot of patents. But I have 20 years of experience messing with the USPTO. So if you don't vibe on the moral arguments against it, there are some pragmatic ones in that most of the time you spend millions getting IP and it's extinct before it even issues.

19:16KevinAnd so there's just, I think, a metronome problem at the USPTO trying to keep up with the rate of innovation. Like, you know, your cell phones probably swap every two years, right?

19:28SpeakerDepends how much fluff and bullshit you have in your patent case. If you have a very clearly well-written patent, you can get in and out of the office in a matter of a couple of years. Seriously. Seriously, if there's a lot of fluff and bullshit in there like a lot of patents are these days, they get, yeah, put on the back burner or they're just difficult to examine because there's so much crap in there that's not germane to the invention.

19:53ToddOkay, and I want to point something out. You know, we're coming at it from different perspectives when it comes to intellectual property. I mean, I get... Thank you so much for joining us today.

20:14ToddIt's really, it is different but not much different from someone who comes along and writes a film or writes a book or even writes a song and doesn't want to see some bigger band come along and run off with their song. And I think that in a lot of ways these things were set up to protect the small guy from the big guy. Do you agree with that or not?

20:38KevinI agree with the intention, but I think with a lot of government intention, you get the opposite result, as these don't actually protect the small guy, because the legal requirements to file them are oftentimes $20,000 to $50,000.

20:50ToddWell, $35 to file a copyright if you're an author. Yeah, that's different. Totally different with copyright. So in a sense, we are coming at this from difference. When you spend a million dollars to try to protect a process, like John made a mention, he spent Well over $900,000 to patent this idea. That's a huge cash investment. I mean, I spent $35 to copyright my last creative work at the United States government's website.

21:18ToddIt's not that expensive, but the idea of it is so that someone doesn't come along and steal the idea once you start presenting it.

21:25Todd MccormickIt's a long process, Todd. I wrote the patent, and then I gave it to the lawyers, and the lawyers re-cut and paste and changed and re-looked at it and looked at it again and brought a scientist guy in and another guy, and after they were all done rewriting it, that's where it got up in the huge. Cash expenditure numbers. And yeah. And by the way, your microphone is muted.

21:53Todd MccormickThat's why it didn't work when you talked over me just now. No, I'm not.

21:58ToddI'm having a conversation with someone I'm sitting dabbing with and listening to you at the same time. I wasn't trying to talk over you, actually. If I was, I would have turned it on and been like, blah, blah, blah.

22:08BubblemanTodd can talk over you. Trust me on that. If Todd wants to talk, we will hear what he has to say. He is Articulate and... Thank you for joining us.

22:48BubblemanYes. You know, it's interesting because in Jamaica, they'll release a beat, you know, and it's basically, you know, three or four or five different artists could pick that beat up and write different lyrics. And from the perspective of, you know, the listener, We get these amazing different songs with the same beat and every time it happens there's always one or two guys that hits it so well that it ends up being your favorite version of that song and it's just, it's one of the way things work in Jamaica and thank God, you know, like watching that video You know, seeing how Bob Dylan borrowed some of his ideas and concepts from people that were singing.

23:27BubblemanI mean, holy shit, everyone gives that guy praise as being the most innovative writer and incredible poet. And then just in like three simple instances, it's like, wow, he is completely jacking that shit. Hard.

23:39ToddThere are mechanisms in music, though, that people get paid. Like I mentioned earlier, you know, when that guy made the comment that he was listening to a certain performer when he wrote a song that then made millions of dollars, the family took action on him. So there are mechanisms in place to stop that type of overt plagiarism.

23:56BubblemanYeah.

23:56ToddAnd there are also our allowances where you can take pieces and you can put it into creative works and credit the people properly.

24:03KevinSo I think those days are numbered. I think what we're going to see with all of these blockchain tools that are out there, Pirate Bay is going to be decentralized to the point where you can't shut it down. It has no jurisdiction. So once that happens... Yeah, once that happens, information is going to spread as quickly as it can on the internet, which is going to be a virality.

24:25KevinAnd the next question is, how long should a copyright last?

24:27David HutchinsonBut can I stop you for just one second when you say that, Kevin?

24:30ToddInformation already spreads as fast as the speed of internet can travel on the internet.

24:38KevinWhat you're saying when you say that is... With the exception of a million takedown videos a month on YouTube.

24:43ToddWell, but... Hold on a minute. If you come along and you make a movie and you spend $10 million or even $800,000 making a movie, you feel that then people should have the right to come along and then take it, make copies of it, and stand on the corner in Nepal and sell it on the street?

24:58KevinNo, I think there's other ways to monetize that. That's a pragmatic monetization question.

25:05ToddThey take your movie, they make a copy of it, and they show it on theaters in Turkey and sell tickets. Name that country. You think people should have the right to take your stuff and then go reproduce it and sell it and make money? That's totally cool with you?

25:20KevinSo I don't know. I'm asking. I'm just asking.

25:24BubblemanLet him answer, Todd. Let him answer. That's why I'm asking. Thank you.

25:29KevinHoly shit. Yeah. Maybe I should say no to this when I really mean yes. So here's the deal. Information, people emulate ideas all the time. The question is what's the unit of an idea? You're suggesting copyright is legit for 120 years. I'd ask you why when it used to be 14. What's the right amount of time before somebody can emulate you? That kind of brings a slippery slope question into view as to, well, what if it's 14 days, not 14 years?

26:01KevinSo how long should copyright exist, Todd?

26:12Todd MccormickCrickets.

26:15ToddI'm not the only one that can't hear you, Kevin. Kevin, you're breaking up.

26:19KevinI'm sorry. How's that? Is that better? So my question was really about time. So there used to be 14 years for copyright protection. Now it's 120 years. And what's the right amount of time for emulating someone's idea? Sometimes these ideas are written recipes for helping people for health care. There's copyright and all types of stuff that can prevent replication of things that can save lives. So the monetization question of how you make money as an artist is independent of whether or not it's legitimate.

26:50KevinI think there's a lot of ways in the digital era that people can still make money with music. Like bands do this. They make a lot of money on tour and they find other ways to sell their digital content. Some people buy it even though you can find it on Pirate Bay. Why? Because sometimes people want to actually give to the artists and they don't want to go through all the hassle to get it at Pirate Bay.

27:13KevinSo I think there's a market, just like there was with the Grateful Dead, and I know that's different, they did have copyright, but they lodged a tape and shared tapes, and that probably spread their music around people who couldn't afford to buy it, and eventually they could afford to buy it, and probably did.

27:25ToddBut see, you're kind of saying, you're speaking up outside your mouth, you're saying that, you know, I support non-com, I was a taper, man. I had Sony Digital, I used to go to the shows, I used to be standing there with my friends, with Mike, standing on booms. I thought it was great, we used to trade the tapes, we didn't make money off the Grateful Dead. And they forbid it.

27:46ToddThey forbid you taking those tapes that you made and then go and sell them.

27:49BubblemanYou didn't make money off the Grateful Dead selling their music. You absolutely made money off of them following them around, selling grilled cheeses and veggie burritos and t-shirts that you would use songs from their repertoire. To create pictures with their sometimes logos on. Fish has this happen as well. And people sell these products in the parking lot where the band makes absolutely nothing. And the people themselves create a reality that they can continue down this road by going to each show and supporting the band with this symbiosis where they get back from supporting that band by being able to Thank you.

28:26BubblemanThank you.

28:56BubblemanThat's for sure.

28:58Todd MccormickI could tell you how many thousands of people I have seen selling Grateful Dead tape collections. I mean, it's a nice idea that they forbade it and all that, Todd, but I lived in Berkeley and I knew a whole bunch of the Deadheads that went there and they were constantly for sale. People were selling it left and right. I mean, look through your collection and see if there's tape I don't have.

29:25Todd MccormickBoom, you know, but everybody understands. Can I say what I was going to say?

29:31SpeakerNo way, no way, no way, no way, no way. No hardcore taper would ever sell a tape out of their collection for money. No Grateful Dead tapers that I ever know would ever sell. I have thousands of tapes, thousands of hours of tapes. I've never sold one. You trade them. You do not sell.

29:50Todd MccormickYou're the odd one out. No, I'm not.

29:53SpeakerNo, I'm not, John. No, I'm not. No, no, no. Can I also say this? No one does it commercially, period. End of story.

29:59ToddI agree with that. But Dave Matthews Band, Dave Matthews Band did a great job of using that marketing cue to make his music more popular too by allowing taping. It was brilliant. But he still sells his studio albums. He still sells his concert tickets.

30:17BubblemanI think what was more brilliant back in the day was when Dave Matthews followed the fish tour around and made sure that he was playing in key areas during times where fish was not playing. That's how I got turned on to Dave Matthews in 1993 on the east coast of the USA. And that was literally people like, yeah, you got to check these guys out. That was when Dave had that really amazing acoustic guitar sound and the whole band sounded quite like, I don't know, gnarlier than the polished version that they have now.

30:45BubblemanNot that I'm disliking them these days, but man, listen to anything pre-1994 from Dave Matthews and you will really have a serious appreciation for that sound.

30:57KevinYeah, I have to go ahead. Here's one idea. Take a look at an artist named Tatiana Rose. OK, so what she did is realizing that she'd have a hard time getting through the big labels, record labels. She created a cryptocurrency for her music. And in doing so, she allows her people to buy into her coin. You can use that to buy her tickets, her merchandise, whatever. She can also do a crowdfunding sale for her next album.

31:21KevinSo people pay up in advance before the album's released. And she puts up like, hey, if I get X number of dollars, I'll release these 12 tracks. And so she's finding a way to monetize things, recognizing copyright probably doesn't have a lot of legs left in it with what's coming. And so I think there are other ways to monetize this. We can separate the question of monetization.

31:43ToddKevin, it's a big difference between copyright doesn't have any legs and the poor girl's getting her music stolen and nobody goes to the record stores. That's really what you're saying. And when she's trying to overtly sell it and saying, I won't release this track until I've raised X amount of dollars, it sounds exactly like she's a starving artist who's trying to figure out ways to get paid for her music.

32:02BubblemanOkay, let's talk about a different artist. Let's talk about Chance, the rapper. He gives his music away, all of it, for free. He ends up on the Jimmy Fallon show. He ends up getting Jay-Z approaching him, Kanye West. Every major label artist wants this guy to sing a song with them. He gives his music away. He has no label. He gives his music away.

32:29Skunk ManYeah, but that's taking a really big chance.

32:31BubblemanYeah, well, he's taken a big chance because he's chanced the rapper. And if you look into this guy, you'll see that he is legitimately monetizing in the way that we're talking about, which is going to unveil itself in the upcoming years as we see these changes. And this is a guy that is seriously rocking the boat. No label, giving all his music away. Goes on Jimmy Fallon.

32:55BubblemanJimmy's like, how can they get your music? And he's like, oh, I give it away. Thank you for watching.

33:14BubblemanThank you for watching.

33:34KevinYou've got to pay $35 per article just to get access to this. And a lot of this has cures for cancer and AIDS in it, right? So we're dealing with a double-edged sword when we start allowing this because it certainly limits freedom of speech. It limits the ability to move the information around deadly viruses and cures around the world. So this is not a simple topic.

33:54ToddI think we do it a disservice when we compare apples to oranges in a way because this is a serious topic and I think that we do do it because when a musician like Mark just mentioned is using it as an advertisement so he can get attractions from other artists to collaborate with and people to go to his concerts and stuff. And buy his tickets and support his art.

34:18ToddBut on the flip side of it, I get now where you're coming from, Kevin, where you're saying that when a scientific paper goes out, that that information should not be stifled because you can't afford to pay the $35 to read the paper. But in a sense, isn't this what newspapers do? It's a question. When they take a scientific article like Rob Clark's latest one that just went in National Geographic and was redistributed or covered by a bunch of magazines, don't media outlets have the ability to come along, read your paper once they pay $35, and then write a story about it?

34:57KevinYeah, they do. Yeah, that would be remixing the content, much like people remix music. So the information is available? Not all the details of the methods are available unless you pay them $35.

35:08Skunk ManThe information is available because, as you well know, Kevin, with sites like Sci-Hub, the Pirate Bay for Science paper, all science articles are available.

35:21KevinPeriod. Now, let's just back up. That wasn't the case when Aaron Swartz started doing this back at MIT. Does anyone know who Aaron Swartz is? The guy who started RRS and Reddit? He committed suicide because they're going to throw him in a cage for like 20 years for releasing a million scientific articles. So here we have a brilliant young entrepreneur who starts Reddit, is really active in RRS and open sourcing software, and our society is going to throw him in a cage for putting scientific papers public.

35:53Skunk ManWell, I don't think they can control the people that are doing it now. First of all, American law can't reach them.

36:01BubblemanWell, it goes right back to the same story. Should these scientists be getting paid for these papers? That's their copyrighted information, and if people aren't paying for them, should people be able to access them?

36:12KevinWe get jacked in that deal. We actually have to pay to get it published.

36:15Skunk ManYeah, it's not the scientists, it's the publishers.

36:21KevinRight, Elsevier, yeah, they're making bank.

36:24ToddCan I ask you gentlemen a question? But the knowledge that's in the paper that you put out, once you put it out, it goes into the general atmosphere of humanity's knowledge. Because once someone reads that paper, they can talk about, they can write about that, they just can't write it verbatim. From your paper, correct? I mean, so this is the difference, I think, is that like the woman that writes the story about Harry Potter, the world can know about Harry Potter.

36:51ToddYou just can't come in and take passages from her book and then go use that as your paper.

36:57KevinRight. But in a lot of cases in scientific papers, you need the exact verbatim information to replicate it. You know, like the primer sequences and concentrations.

37:05SpeakerAll the tables, the references. You're going to dry lab the results? You're going to dry lab the results and not generate any original results? You're just going to basically pirate not only the words but also the results? You can't do that. I'm sorry. It'll never be published. If I try to take your latest paper

37:25SpeakerAnd rewrite it word for word, and I submit it to clinical microbiology.

37:30KevinThat'll get scanned. I'm just saying that the information of somebody like a newspaper reading it and then reporting it in the New York Times does not give enough information to another scientist to replicate the work. You actually need the tables and the detail, in which case you need to pay $35 to get that paper. You're not going to try and replicate it off of the New York Times then.

37:50SpeakerBut the peer-reviewed scientific literature is in for-profit journals. I mean, these journals make a profit in what they do. Elsevier Publications and all these other publications that all the top scientific journals are in the world where all this important research is, is a for-pay service.

38:09KevinSure, but I don't think profit's a bad thing. I think that word's being totally contaminated with politics. And profit, generally speaking, are two people having an exchange, and that exchange doesn't happen unless both parties profit in that exchange, right?

38:22SpeakerYeah.

38:22KevinSo the only way that doesn't... Thank you for watching.

38:47KevinBut the reality is the fact that Apple has, you know, whatever it is, $40 billion in cash is because they've made a lot of other people happy exchanging money for their phones. They do a lot of other coercive crap. I'm not here to sing Apple's praises because they're certainly cronying up with the state, without a doubt. You know, when it comes down to, I think, peer-to-peer voluntary transactions, profit's not an evil thing.

39:09KevinSo I don't have an issue with the journals necessarily being profitable. I have an issue with the fact that they're leveraging a state-granted monopoly, effectively, of copyright. That's the only reason they actually have that revenue stream is because our government has been forcing intellectual property rights to replicate them all over the globe.

39:27ToddYeah, you know Kevin, you and I agree way more than we disagree in all reality about most all of this stuff because I think in various applications it's important but it's becoming irrelevant and I believe in the transfer of information. We would not have been able to make the movie The Culture High if it wasn't for the wonderful people pirating the Union off of the Pirate Bay and other sites all over the world which we You know, we never expected the film to really see the light of day.

39:57ToddAfter it hit Super Channel and we got turned down for HBO and Showtime in America, we figured Damn, but because people started trading the movies back in 07, 08, 09, the union really grew legs all over the world and it was great and it was through this that people were able to see the film. So we never tried to take it down. We thought it was a great thing and I still feel that way in regards to cannabis information.

40:23ToddBut at the same time, when somebody comes along and writes a book, I feel like the little guy should get protected from getting completely ripped off by the big guy. Yeah.

40:31KevinSo as a point of case, I happily paid for the union and I loved it so much that I actually chipped into the Kickstarter for the one after it for the culture high and I was fully aware of Pirate Bay, but I just didn't do it because I'm a person and when I like someone's work, I'm going to cheer them on. So I think there's a set of people in the world that are like that.

40:51KevinAnd there's a set that maybe they're financially incapable of buying all this stuff. And so they're doing what they can to get by. And they have a time value preference different than ours. And so they can spend the extra time Wandering around the dark net to find this stuff. I'd rather just click the button and pay for it.

41:08BubblemanWell, it's like, look at Red Bull recently. They released Travis Rice's new snowboard movie called The Fourth Phase. And this movie is unbelievable. He follows a storm all around the world and goes to all these different zones. And it's completely epic. And of course, Red Bull, before they put it up for sale, they put it up on their website on October 2nd at 9 p.m. And it was free to stream for as many people that wanted to watch it as possible for those people that maybe would not be able to afford to purchase it.

41:37BubblemanThey put it all up for free and the next day they sold just tens of thousands of copies because people want to support them. They realized that was an epic journey and to purchase it is to be a part of it. That was kind of a cool thing.

41:52KevinAnd Todd, I don't place any judgment on people that do use it because in some industries, it's almost impossible to get started without it. Like in the biotech space, you can't get funded if you don't have an IP plan. And at minimum, you have to have a defensive IP plan, which I view a little bit differently than folks who are trying to use offensive patent trolling types of techniques.

42:11KevinAnd so it exists currently. I don't know how long it's going to continue to exist just based on copyright and Pirate Bay and these blockchain tools that may make that really hard to enforce. The patent system I'm finding, the average time it takes to get a patent is like 32 months. So some technologies come and go before that even ever issues. So many people like Tesla and Twitter are taking a different approach to patents and they're assigning them to their employees or they're vowing they'll never use them offensively.

42:38KevinThey'll only put them into a patent pool for defensive use. I think the world's opinion on innovation is changing, and I do think the metronome of innovation is getting faster and faster, such that I doubt the USPTO's time to issue is going to get that much faster. It's just not going to keep up with the rate of technological innovation, and so people are going to start to spend their money elsewhere.

43:00SpeakerI'd like to add a few things. Those are great, great comments, Kevin, but I think one of the things that we Don't recognize as being important intellectual property, at least maybe not in the cannabis industry. Certainly, you know, like with John's invention, for example. So it's definitely an invention. It's an invention that has a device and it should be protected. Thank you for joining us.

43:43SpeakerYeah, what I do with the extractor and how I use his patent as an extractor is my trade secret. And so I think in hash making and in growing and cultivating, there's a lot of trade secrets, which is your know-how, which is your intellectual property. And I've advised my clients and many friends getting into the industry to, you know, write that stuff down. Put your stuff down.

44:07SpeakerWrite it down. That becomes your intellectual property. And like, you know, one of the most valuable products, I won't call it valuable, but one of the most widely sold products on the planet, Coca-Cola, is not covered in a patent. It's in a trade secret. You know, we've talked about this before. It's locked away in some vault in Atlanta in some skyscraper. It's not in a patent, so you don't need to patent everything.

44:32SpeakerBut the other thing I want to say, and I think that I try to show this as much as I possibly can, is there's an incredible amount of science that's open and accessible by reading patents. There's an incredible amount of science in patent, an incredible amount of cannabinoid science that's in Mishulam's patents and all the GW patents. So read the patents and start becoming aware of the fact that they are an open form of scientific literature that you can go to and rely on.

45:04KevinYeah, the only thing I'd caution in reading patents is that they're not obligated to have actually demonstrated the result. So you can get a patent with a theoretical, a hypothetical experiment.

45:15SpeakerYeah, prophetic, what's called a prophetic patent where it's just a paper result, right. I mean, I like to go to the chemical patents where, you know.

45:23KevinYeah, those are harder than bullshit.

45:25SpeakerYeah, I mean, we took this many grams of CBD, we treated with zinc chloride, we got this many grams of THC, there it is, right there, a preparation of THC from CBD, it's in the patent literature, you don't have to pay to get at it, all you need is, you know, internet access.

45:42Todd MccormickYeah, there's still a lot of know-how that doesn't get transmitted in a patent, in fact, a well-written patent. We'll show the entire process like for instance on a piece of equipment. Mine is an apparatus and process. And so there's a lot of know-how that goes into running that apparatus even if you have the process. But fortunately for everybody out there who's interested, when you get one and you get a licensed operator, we transmit all that know-how directly into your brain.

46:16SpeakerJohn, there's still subtle tweaks that the artisan can make. Your know-how covers things only to a certain extent. What about processing the flour or processing the extract? Certainly, you can still take your know-how, which is patented and licensed, and still put your own twist on it or create your own version of it. Absolutely.

46:42Todd MccormickThat patent was realized for extracting everything from flowers to fried chicken. And so it is usable in a number of circumstances. And I'm sure that people who would find some new use for it would then want to file that that was their own personal thing. And I'm completely open to that. I've extracted everything that you can think of under the sun. And the know-how to do that is what led me to understand how to make this damn thing the right way.

47:20Todd MccormickHave you extracted beaver glands? I have. They smell like raspberries and Canadian farts.

47:26Skunk ManAnd what about chicken and waffles?

47:32Todd MccormickI haven't done it in conjunction with a waffle, no. But I'm sure there's going to be butter and grease in the waffle that's going to come out. I mean, Sam, if I threw you in, how much fat and oil would I get out?

47:46Skunk ManDon't throw me in. It would choke your machine.

47:49SpeakerNo, extract Trump.

47:52Todd MccormickNo, my machine cannot handle that kind of meat.

47:56SpeakerHe's not sorry.

47:58Todd MccormickI'd have to charge him a big fee for cleanup after running Trump through it.

48:04BubblemanHey, welcome, Tony. Welcome, Tony.

48:07Todd MccormickYes, it does root bark extracts.

48:10KevinSo I'll throw one more dirt ball out there on the IP front is the information that comes out of patents takes like 18 months. There is a period where it's not public, which is a bit of a bummer. It's a fairly long period of time considering the amount of information that we're generating is doubling every five months as a human society, right? So how is it possible they can actually do prior art?

48:31KevinThank you for joining us.

48:49BubblemanHow does prior art fit into social media and online websites and like the sharing of these ideas before they're patented? The voiding of patents is probably way more than it used to be with all of everyone having these cameras and video cameras in their phones.

49:10Todd MccormickWell, you know, prior art, they look up prior art. Look, I went through this international process and I was in Switzerland and we had to apply for United States and China and all the various different places. And the guy looked up prior art and he wrote me a very long letter saying that he searched back over 45 years to try to find somebody who was going about it the way I was going about it.

49:35Todd MccormickAnd he found none. So the prior art in this starts with me here and now with this particular method and way. And from here forward, from here forward, people will find new ways to use the way that, you know what I did was I, it's like coming up with a carburetor and then how many different people took off on that because different carburetors for different cars and engines and so forth.

49:59Todd MccormickBut that's basically what it is. It's a basic thing. And I think it could be a while. But if somebody one-ups me, hey, I love competition.

50:10BubblemanWell, that's what it's all about. I mean, I was more talking about the patent that I was dealing with, the water extraction patent, which is also two patents. It's both the apparatus and the mode. But, yeah, it is what it is, you know. I happily leased a patent that was not mine. I happily... Put that money in the guy's hand who was the guy that did it.

50:33BubblemanAnd, you know, I went through all of this, patent lawsuits for almost eight years, looking up prior art, the whole nine yards. And I'll tell you, it's never as simple as you think, these patent cases.

50:46Todd MccormickWe're going to put some dough in your pocket too, Mark.

50:50BubblemanOh, you know, I'm not worried about dough in my pocket. I'm more worried about resin in my pipe.

50:57Todd MccormickOkay, well, that's going to happen too.

51:00BubblemanWhy don't we all put some resin in our pipes right now?

51:02Todd MccormickI want to sit down with you at the kitchen table and smoke, Mark. God damn it. I'll sit down. I suggest it to you. If we have to arrange a marriage to get you down in the States, let's look at it.

51:18BubblemanOh, yeah. John and I are going to get married so I can come down to the States. He's offered that to me. It's very kind of you, John.

51:25Todd MccormickNot a problem. We can get it annulled right away.

51:30BubblemanOh, my goodness.

51:33Todd MccormickWell, you know, when you don't consummate a marriage, you don't want to stay in it, and I wouldn't be up for consummating.

51:40BubblemanNo, no, that's taking it too far, John. That's taking it too far.

51:47Skunk ManNot if it was done tantric.

51:51BubblemanI knew you were going to say that. I was waiting for some... Hilarious Skunk Man Sam comment. Off the cuff humor. Sometimes Sam's jokes are so out there you have to think for a few seconds before you're like, oh, I see what he did there. I see what he did there.

52:10KevinSam, you look like one of those clowns hanging out in our woods, man. You're going to have to change your motto there.

52:16Skunk ManI kind of like who I am, actually.

52:21BubblemanHe probably doesn't even know about the clown thing.

52:25Todd MccormickYou know the thing with us old farts like Sam and me is when we tell a joke or say something funny our background on it on what's relevant is deep and old and so sometimes people won't get it because they're younger and you don't have the you don't have the vast amount of knowledge which we have rather you have have vast amounts of knowledge.

52:52BubblemanI hear it, though. I see what you're saying, John. You know, when you live that longer amount of life. I mean, I'm 43, and I can definitely say, looking back when I was in my 20s, that you just don't have that same depth of experience. People tell you you don't, and it offends you, and you're like, fuck you, old people. But then as you start getting older, you realize, wow, like.

53:10David HutchinsonThey were right.

53:11BubblemanThey were right. I didn't know shit.

53:14David HutchinsonI keep thinking everything my dad told me when I was younger. Well, don't do this. You're going to feel it when you get older. I'm like, fuck, that was right.

53:21BubblemanHe was right. Don't fall 30 feet off of a scissor lift, bro. You're going to feel that when you get older, Johnny B. Break your neck, break your back, break your arm, break your leg, break your hip.

53:32David HutchinsonBut I got hash. I got good, good medicine to keep the bones lubricated and the muscles working good.

53:40BubblemanBreak your jaw, break your skull.

53:42David HutchinsonI've done all that.

53:43Skunk ManSo Kevin, what do you think about the two cannabis patents that were granted in America?

53:54Skunk ManIt's actually sort of a combination plant patent and a method patent where they're developing plants with certain chemotypes with cannabinoid profiles. And I think the second one is for the propyl homologs family.

54:13KevinYeah, so I've never filed any plant patents, so I don't really know the details and what those claims, how broad those claims are. I mean, my naivete looks like they're broad to me. I mean, it's like something like 3% THC.

54:26Skunk ManThey seem as broad as the Mississippi to me.

54:29KevinYeah, so broad sometimes is very dangerous. It makes it easy for people to pull out prior art, right? And the question that seems unresolved is whether the USPTO is going to acknowledge prior business use in the cannabis field as being legitimate. And of course, if people have hard evidence of those types of genotypes. I think the claim was a genotype and a phenotype, right? It was low myrcene content and above 3% THC, 3% CBD.

54:56Skunk ManAmong various other things, yes.

54:58KevinYeah, so without a doubt, that plant's existed before, right? It's just who has evidence that's going to be deemed notarizable.

55:09SpeakerLike getting a DNA on the plant?

55:12Skunk ManWell, you also need analytical proof, really. That's what you need. So how do you go about enforcing such patents? Well, we're not talking about enforcing it. We're talking about getting it blown out of the water.

55:27SpeakerIf you're not going to enforce it, then you just wasted a lot of money in getting it, right?

55:32Skunk ManYes, but what Kevin and I were talking about was, in fact, that it may not be enforceable.

55:41SpeakerRight.

55:42KevinWhich is still expensive for the party who has to prove it, right? So, you know, my sense is they're not going to go after people that don't have a bankroll. They're going to go after people that are... Relying on that strain in production, it would cost them a tremendous amount of pain to switch. Therefore, the licensing costs would be cheaper than the switching costs.

56:01Todd MccormickYeah, that's exactly what I'm doing at the moment with the big BHO guys. Never mind the small potatoes. These guys that have got big advertisements and pictures and teaching on the web, I am coming after them with the biggest fucking hammer you ever saw.

56:19BubblemanDid you guys catch that? Did you guys catch that out there?

56:23SpeakerThey better keep their front lawns moved.

56:26BubblemanDeal with it. Deal with it. I'll tell you. I avoided Reinhardt when he hit me up with the patent. I was like, fuck this. He can't have a patent on this. That's some bullshit. I can do this, man. What the fuck, man? And then I was like, hired a great patent lawyer. People were like, don't worry. It's completely unenforceable. And everyone was an expert on patents suddenly.

56:45BubblemanUntil it wasn't that way at all. Until it was not that way at all. And in fact, even my patent lawyer who represented huge companies, like huge ones. Ours was the tiniest little peanut of a grain of sand type of thing. And he would say like, listen, you know, it's definitely not a slam dunk case in either way. Like it could go, it could get down to a judge who decides the fate of your company.

57:11BubblemanAnd I was very happy to turn that all around, stop giving money to lawyers, start giving money to the guy with the patent. Regardless, it's just like, man, I'm happy to be inclusive. Very, very happy to be inclusive, very happy to share the wealth or whatever it is, the health. Just share. It's fine. I'm happy that I've paid. I'm one of the only water extraction bags that paid to lease the patent from the beginning of my company well into the future.

57:40BubblemanAnd I, you know, I kind of makes me happy to know that I did that.

57:43Skunk ManWhen does his patent end?

57:47BubblemanHis patent ends in 2018, but then that's a whole other thing where there's, you know, I don't understand it completely, but I'm sure there's extensions that can be made. I'm quite certain of it.

57:57Todd MccormickThey go for 20 years on process and equipment, and you can make them a lot longer. And it depends on which country, you know. Mine's alive in 33 countries, which costs a small fortune every year. But a lot of the countries that I'm in are places where they extract essential oils from everything from flowers to buffalo poo.

58:21SpeakerYou know, during the prosecution of your patent, you can do something called continuation in part, which is called a CIP. It's an abbreviated CIP. And what they are, are as various office actions happen against your patent, you could actually amend the claims and file those as continuation in parts, which actually extends the lifetime of your IP coverage. So that's probably what Reinhardt did, I would imagine, is that after the initial patent You can basically do these continuation in parts which helps you extend the coverage out in the future.

58:58SpeakerThose continuation in parts though are usually more narrowly covered towards exactly what the commercial technology is. Right.

59:07BubblemanWell, I'll tell you one thing. There's probably not too many other people. This is the problem, you know, that it's, it was one thing to create a personal use for these processes. It's another to create commercial ventures. And that's where John's feeling upset. That's where Reinhart was feeling upset. You know, he had literally documents that showed GW Pharmaceutical had used the water extraction process to extract resins.

59:32BubblemanAnd when he saw that, he was like, man, that is like, that's, that's my, that's, I patented that shit.

59:37SpeakerRight, because they're a for-profit enterprise, they should be paying.

59:41Skunk ManWait a minute, wait a minute. They never used that process.

59:45BubblemanThey mention it in paper, Sam. They mention it in paper, I'm just telling you. Whether they used it or not.

59:52Skunk ManThey did one experiment with it. Well, is that not using the process, Sam? Wait a minute, except for that I was doing the process before Reinhart patented it. And you know it.

1:00:06BubblemanYep, you were. But your prior art didn't hold water in court because your prior art was never... You'd never take it all the way if you didn't take it all the way. Well, trust me, they said quite frankly that because there were no instructions in the publication, that it wasn't a breach of prior art. All you did was say, call us and we'll sell you the instructions, but you didn't give it away in the art.

1:00:31BubblemanIt wasn't there in the publication. You understand? Trust me.

1:00:35SpeakerYou have to teach the method to someone who's suitably skilled in the art so they can reproduce the invention. That is what we did.

1:00:41BubblemanAnd it's very, very easy.

1:00:43Skunk ManThat's exactly what we did.

1:00:45BubblemanAlso, you did not use ice in your explanation, and ice was the novel concept.

1:00:50Skunk ManYou said the colder the water, the better. You're right.

1:00:54BubblemanThe ice is a big deal on the patent. Trust me, it was my business on the line when I had all these people telling me, don't worry, it's going to be fine. I was like, well, I need more if it's going to be fine because the way this is now is that this guy's thing is... And another thing, here's another thing. The isolator bags were 100% created by looking at Reinhardt's machine...

1:01:16BubblemanEldon created those bags sitting on Mila's couch, smoking hash with Mark Rose, and he looked at that machine that Mila had just signed up with Reinhardt for, and he said, two nylon bags with screen bottoms in a five-gallon bucket, and you've got yourself the same thing. Boom, isolator bags were born. Mark Rose named them, he manufactured them, and Mila sold them. And it was isolator bags that I copied, not Skunk Man Sam's

1:01:44Skunk ManI understand this. So these are all, this is my honesty. All I know is that if Reinhardt would have sued me, which of course he never did because I was never in the industry.

1:01:56BubblemanNo, exactly.

1:01:59Skunk ManI would have fought him all the way to the very end because I know I was using it for a decade. How much was what?

1:02:08Todd MccormickNevermind. I, I forgot the mic was open. I was talking to a troglodyte.

1:02:15BubblemanNo worries. No worries. What I'm saying is I was happy to lease the patent. I'm happy to be on the other side of that because after almost eight years of an enormous amount of wasted money where Reinhardt's not greedy, the lawyers absolutely are. So when you can figure that out, you work with the people who have the patents.

1:02:42Skunk ManIt makes good sense. Also too, I would suggest him not to sue GW because they're like a billion dollar company and they've got lawyers up to yin, yang, walla, walla, bing, bang.

1:02:54BubblemanOh, I'm sure. I don't think he has any interest in suing GW. I think he has more of an interest in making, like John, trying to figure out leasing out his patents to companies that are going to commercially yield off of it, you know, create commercial businesses that are based on using that process. I mean... Apple and Samsung, they lease patents from each other. It's just part of the game.

1:03:18BubblemanIt's like, oh, you patented that. I'll lease that from you. You lease this from me. They're spending billions of dollars back and forth. It just seems in the cannabis world, people are like, no, you don't lease patents. You just fuck people over. Whatever you do, don't pay that guy for his intellectual property or his patent. Just fucking wild, wild west. Just go out and do your thing and fuck.

1:03:38BubblemanDon't worry about that. I can't do that anymore. I can't do it. It's not my stop.

1:03:42Todd MccormickMy first patent I wrote in 1978, folks, which was a long time ago. And it got stolen from me because I didn't understand all the bullshit that goes along with all the paperwork that you sign that enabled the assholes who stole it from me to steal control of it because they managed to get... 51% written on a piece of paper that was in German and I was foolish enough at the time to sign it without a translation.

1:04:15Todd MccormickThese are all things that John never does anymore and everything now goes to the lawyers and the lawyers write back and tell me what to do and how to do and that's when I sign things when I'm sure that I can live up to what it is I'm promising.

1:04:31BubblemanTony, you must have some thoughts on all of this. You're creating a lot of different products these days. You've got your Prana. You've got the terpenes, all sorts of different intellectual properties, patents, know-how, the whole nine yards. I'm interested to hear your perspective on all of this.

1:04:48SpeakerWell, thanks for having me on again today. My pleasure. You know, the patent situation, well, it would probably scare many of you to know what patents are out there besides my own. But it's all about why are you patenting something? What's the logic and what's the reasoning behind it? And if you're patenting something to protect your intellectual property or you came up with something that's unique,

1:05:22SpeakerIt was not seen before or you have a new spin on something and you developed your time and your money, some of us our whole entire lives to a particular technique or a product and you don't want people to steal it, then you probably want to keep it as a trademark and a secret recipe if you will. Coca-Cola didn't try to patent their recipe, they just kept it an in-house trade secret.

1:05:51SpeakerOh, who's late to church here? Someone's late to church? Excuse me. I was a little late. I'm only giving you shit, Brother Tony. I'm only giving you shit. No, I talked about the Coca-Cola recipe about an hour ago maybe. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm just, all right, well, we're on the same page, and I'm just kind of agreeing with what you guys were saying before. But if you put a patent out there, everyone's going to know, Thank you for watching.

1:06:36Todd MccormickBut it's up to you to enforce it, and first you've got to find them. And my patent has been around forever.

1:06:42SpeakerFirst you have to have an issue patent. It has to be issued or allowed in order for you to enforce it, right? Is yours allowed? Yeah. So basically I got the, we kind of went through this little dance with Canada already. And what I got back was it was a provisional application and then they issued that and accepted the PCT international applications and the U.S. government actually wrote, said that I could go and enforce that.

1:07:13SpeakerI could enforce it if I wanted to, but I'm not really, that's not really our goal or objective to do those type of things. In the patent it actually covers the use of cannabis terpenes Or non-cannabis terpenes as a dilute. What are you chopping up? What am I chopping up?

1:07:33BubblemanYeah, it's like it's just this, it's all anyone's talking about right now in the chat room.

1:07:38SpeakerReally? That's such a minor little sound. Okay.

1:07:41BubblemanOh, to you, to you, to you, to us with the headphones, it's like ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta.

1:07:47Skunk ManLast week he gave Trump the sniffles.

1:07:49SpeakerJust don't pick up a straw now. Yeah, seriously. I'm not chopping up anything like that. What I am actually doing is I'm playing around with where I'm trying to prepare for the cup, but I've got Spain over here, and I've got a couple buddies over here.

1:08:07Skunk ManYeah.

1:08:10SpeakerHead off.

1:08:13BubblemanYeah.

1:08:15SpeakerAnd I made a Neville's Karma, which is Neville's, the Neville's bit, or the Karma's bitch, which is Neville's haze and the RD1 crossed with the orange creamsicle full melt hash rosin. It's amazing. It's fucking stupid loud. So I'm playing with it, yeah, so I apologize.

1:08:38BubblemanI like how John said it's amazing, like he was there with you.

1:08:42Skunk ManNo, no, no, what you did on White Cliff Park, like that was amazing.

1:08:48David HutchinsonIt was in our last video on like a Puff Wednesday, Tony, and that was amazing.

1:08:53SpeakerThe Starman's Bitch?

1:08:55David HutchinsonAmazing. Yeah, it's the super karma's bitch. It's definitely karma's bitch. Wow. Good job.

1:09:03SpeakerSo good. Well, I didn't do anything. That's really the genetics, and that's like the person that grew it, you know?

1:09:10BubblemanYou unveiled it.

1:09:11SpeakerThat's all. That's all. So really, hats off to, you know, Eric Dankness is the one that bred it.

1:09:19BubblemanSo what is it you're chopping?

1:09:23SpeakerI'm just playing around with it.

1:09:26BubblemanOh, okay.

1:09:27SpeakerI'm just playing around with it, man. I don't have any butane, so the only thing I can do right now is play around with it. I've got a couple of pens here.

1:09:38BubblemanYou can't puff? No puffing?

1:09:40SpeakerI'm in a hotel room again. I've got some smoke buddies and things like that. But yeah, we can definitely puff. I didn't bring the nail itself.

1:09:53SpeakerI've got the mothership, but I ran out of butane.

1:09:58SpeakerAnyway, the point is, as far as the patenting thing, I think when you want to do it is if you're going to take it real serious and you're going to try to go for clinicals or you're going to try to do something to take it all the way. Really, you want to protect it from not really the mom and pops or the people that are going to read it and try to do it at home.

1:10:23SpeakerBut like huge companies, you know, you want to be able to stand in the game when like big pharmaceutical companies or big companies decide to come in, steal your ideas, make a whole bunch of money, then you have some grounds to kind of go after, you know. It takes about $3 million, you know.

1:10:43Todd MccormickThe big problem is you've got to have infrastructure behind you to go after them. I had to give up 50% of my patent to my Swiss partner who is a multi-billionaire in order to be able to have the chutzpah I needed to go after these guys who are infringing. Otherwise, I would have just been stuck with calling them up and going, can you please stop using my patent?

1:11:09BubblemanWell, it's a crazy situation too. It goes back to money because, you know, everyone wants to, for instance, know both Sam and Indra's dry sifting methods. And sure, a lot of people want to know it for their own personal self. But there's a good percentage of people that want to know it so they can commercially gain from that process. So they can turn it into a business and make money off of it and not pay Sam or Indra.

1:11:35BubblemanAnd so that's the kind of weird sort of situation where it's like, no, it's come on, just share. It's like everyone should know. It'll make things better for everyone. But then you have this other situation, which is what Tony just literally said, where the one or two big guys that come in and just say, yeah, I'm going to scoop that IP. We're going to pump this shit out this way.

1:11:55BubblemanIt's a tough situation because you just have people like saying, come on, share with me, share with me, share with me. And it's like, It's a tough one. I guess when you want someone to share that kind of a thing with you, you should try and find something of equal value and then go and share it with them first.

1:12:13Todd MccormickI did that way back in 1998. I let the basic idea out of the bag. Hey, Chimera.

1:12:25David HutchinsonHowdy, gentlemen. Hey, welcome, Chimera. You've been listening. Morning, morning. Just the last few minutes, actually, I was out running around with family.

1:12:34SpeakerNice. And the other thing with going after people on that real quick was, you know, like my patent attorney on the stem cell guy, and that's the same patent attorney that I use. And they actually, he's not, he doesn't even actually want to, he's going to do all pro bono. So I wouldn't even have to pay for him to go after people because he felt it was a strong, good patent and everything like that.

1:13:09SpeakerBut again, it's what you said. It's when somebody commercialized. They have to commercialize in such an effort that why would you spend millions of dollars to fight somebody if If there was, if they didn't commercialize, you know, so no one, no one's going to fight anybody across the country, mom and pops or people read the patent and like, oh, I'm going to make some medicine for some sick people.

1:13:31SpeakerThat's not what that's for. That's, it's, it's, it's, it's for like, you know, Pfizer comes in, they make a, they're like, oh, I like your P5 or I like your P4 and I'm going to do that. And then I'm going to,

1:13:44David HutchinsonIs there like a Blue River woodpecker going on over there somewhere?

1:13:48BubblemanYeah, we brought it up.

1:13:50David HutchinsonWe brought it up.

1:13:51BubblemanWe told him how loud it was. He acknowledged how loud it was. Tony, what we're saying is please stop.

1:13:57SpeakerYeah, you're good. That's just, yeah. Okay, Tony, please stop.

1:14:12SpeakerDo you hear it now?

1:14:14Todd MccormickFriends don't let friends do that.

1:14:21ToddDo you hear it now? No. Do you hear it now?

1:14:27Skunk ManYes, I heard it. It was all Morse code and I deciphered the entire message. What was it?

1:14:37SpeakerThat's hardcore. I only have like

1:14:42Skunk ManWhat it was was... That was a Blue River Pecker.

1:14:52Todd MccormickSo now we're off anal glands and on to Beaver Pecker?

1:14:56SpeakerNo, Blue River Pecker.

1:15:01Todd MccormickHave you ever extracted pecker? No, I haven't. I have extracted different glands from animals for different companies.

1:15:12SpeakerYou have extracted beaver glands, though, for real?

1:15:15Todd MccormickNo, I haven't extracted beaver glands.

1:15:19BubblemanIt reminds me of Louis C.K. 's Big Bag of Dicks.

1:15:24SpeakerYeah. Yeah, dude. What was crazy is yesterday, my friend... That you guys know on Instagram is OG Bear Johnson. He goes, hey, what do you want to drink? We were driving and I was like, oh yeah, just get me one of those peach Arizona teas, you know, like peach Arizona tea. And he comes back with the raspberry tea. And I was like, I kept looking at it, looking at it, looking at it.

1:15:53SpeakerI'm like, yeah, I gave up raspberry, vanilla, and natural flavoring from those. I really have.

1:16:06SpeakerDid you tell him why I'm sending back for a peach one? No, no. He was just like, bro, how many of those have you drank in your lifetime? And I was like, oh, God, hundreds. And he's like, so what's the difference between, he goes, you're thirsty, right? And I'm like, yeah. He's like, what's the difference between then and now? And I'm like, just because you know. I'm like, yeah, I guess you're right.

1:16:31SpeakerSo I drank it. I love those beaver turps.

1:16:38BubblemanIt's our go-to. You know, in Hash Church, when things get quiet, it's our go-to. We go back to the beaver.

1:16:43SpeakerBeaver Church. Beaver. Beaver Church.

1:16:46KevinWhat do folks think about the news in Great Britain about them shutting down CBD access?

1:16:51David HutchinsonYeah, I wanted to talk about that. That's insane. My fear is that's going to spread all over to Europe, too, and then that really changes a lot over there.

1:17:01Skunk ManI think they did it to save the kids.

1:17:04David HutchinsonWell, they did it for the same reason that they did it in the United States with the FDA. I mean, they're considering it a medicine now, so they're going to make everybody that's dealing with it go through medical approval, or their equivalent of FDA approval. So, crazy.

1:17:19KevinNow, does the DEA versus Hemp Industry Associates play any role in this? Like, wasn't this ruled in Nutraceutical once before, and therefore it's... Pre-dates, the FDA, IND, or how's that all gonna shake out?

1:17:34ToddNo, I think they used the ruling, Kevin, to try to say that the contamination ruling in the hemp seed oil, the DEA gave it an exemption because basically it was saying that some natural contamination in the hemp food products coming out of Canada would have to be allowable, you know, and realiztically that's why we had cutoff levels and such. And then this has been, people have been using this ruling, if you will, to say that CBD is Because it is predominantly found in hemp is somehow part of this ruling, but I failed to see the nexus when you look closely.

1:18:08ToddAnd I'm not surprised that this is happening, unfortunately.

1:18:13Todd MccormickYou know, when people grind seeds without de-hulling them first, there's always a chance for little bits of THC and CBD to get into it because the seeds aren't clean enough.

1:18:25BubblemanAnd that's it, John. I think that's what's happening, that when you go online and you try and see how Amazon is shipping this CBD oil and going all over the place, I think a lot of this CBD oil is hemp oil that has the smallest percentage of CBD present in it, and it's like a snake oil salesman, not the same as selling like a CBD isolate 99.98% pure.

1:18:50SpeakerThe FDA has been going after those people, and so the FDA has been periodically shutting down people with low CBD hemp oil.

1:18:58BubblemanI'm sure. I mean, it's CBD. It's definitely, I can't imagine that it would be legal to ship outside.

1:19:07SpeakerIt's industrially grown hemp, mostly for fiber over in Eastern Europe and whatnot. And again, very, very little cannabinoids, I think, are even in there at all. So yeah.

1:19:20Todd Mccormick0.1%. 0.1%.

1:19:23KevinIs this foreshowing for U.S. markets? Do you think once GW gets approval through the FDA that the same process ensues here?

1:19:34SpeakerIt would be scary, but I think so. Yeah, they have the World Health Organization many years back deemed it a Schedule, I think it was a Schedule 4 or Schedule 5. And what basically it's kind of a great thing and a bad thing here because the fact that finally a government is recognizing that CBD is medicine is a great thing. Unfortunately, it's going to have some chain reactions.

1:20:02SpeakerWe used to ship to UK and I pulled that plug a month and I kind of heard some murmurs about this. And, you know, so the fact that governments are recognizing that CBD is a medicine is good, but then watch what's going to happen. They're going to definitely 100% turn right around and say, okay, well now if the U.S. or other countries start recognizing it as a medicine, you're absolutely right.

1:20:28Skunk ManYou're going to have to go to bed. The good thing, Tony, is that CBD in flowers themselves can be 20% and in resin even higher. So even if they stop the pharmaceutical CBD, the FDA or whoever stops it, they can't stop the cannabis flowers that are legal under state medical programs.

1:20:57Todd MccormickIn my experience, CBD oil from hemp flowers, something's not right with it because it doesn't give me the analgesic effect that I get from CBD that's balanced and comes from flowers that also produce THC. I've tried the Polish and a couple of the different ones.

1:21:19Skunk ManYou hit it right on the head, John. It's because it ain't got no THC.

1:21:25Todd MccormickYeah, well, it's 0.1 or 0.001.

1:21:28Skunk ManThat's what I said. It ain't got no THC.

1:21:32ToddCan I just interject? I agree with you, John, but there are also people that have certain conditions that are being treated with CBD and CBDA, and that is, you know, it's hard to overgeneralize, you know, but I know that because CBD isn't getting you high, it's harder to Thank you for joining us.

1:22:22Todd MccormickThank you for joining us.

1:22:38Todd MccormickI can't seem to get the same kind of effect out of it, but I know there's a whole host of people who will, but understand those people who are really ill like that are suffering already from cannabinoid, whatever you want to call it, lack of cannabinoids in their system.

1:22:58BubblemanYeah, but how do you explain Herb Rosenfield though, you know, smoking the 300 joints of swag, all of us trying to, we got to get you better Herb, we need to, you need the best stuff possible. And he's like, guys, guys, this works for me. It works for me. So we have to understand that There's a whole big stick in this what works and what doesn't work.

1:23:20BubblemanThere's people at both ends of the spectrum.

1:23:24Todd MccormickWell, I'm sure, but a lot of that, Mark, is also like the placebo effect that some people derive from things. Maybe. You can give them a sugar pill. And they're like, hey, that worked for me. I'm not saying every time, Tony. All I'm saying is that can also be part of the problem of perception of what's going on in your particular system.

1:23:47KevinThe epidemic study had a placebo control. And those kids clearly had some benefit. But to the point, there was 10% of the kids that got much worse, like 300% increased seizure rate in that study. So it's not a panacea. And I think it's very personalized. It comes down to the person's genetics and their condition and a host of environmental factors.

1:24:07Todd MccormickThat's exactly what I'm shooting towards.

1:24:11David HutchinsonThe other thing that's really kind of weird about this whole situation is epidiolex is a formulation. You know, other companies that are just making CBD products, everybody thinks they're going to be able to use the... Sorry, I've got a weird screen thing here. They're going to be able to use the studies that GW is doing for Epidiolex to say that CBD works, but because it's a formulation, there's CBD in other stuff, you know, you can't necessarily extrapolate that Epidiolex is equivalent to CBD.

1:24:40David HutchinsonThat's probably like, you know, intentionally designed that way so that other companies can't benefit from their research.

1:24:46Todd MccormickOnce again, they're selling the unknown cure. It's been going on since the beginning of time. I clearly remember looking at bottles of cocaine and heroin sold in the 20s as miracle cures.

1:25:01David HutchinsonYeah, well, heroin's named heroin because it was the heroic opioid that wouldn't get you addicted. That was what they thought at the time. They used to sell it over the counter, Bayer heroin, right beside the Bayer aspirin.

1:25:16Skunk ManAnd the scientists who discovered and invented it took it themselves, about five or six of them, and none of them became addicted.

1:25:30Todd MccormickWell, they might have taken it once or twice.

1:25:33Skunk ManYeah, they did not become chronic users of it, no. And where other people, like morphine during the Civil War in America, I mean, that was called soldier's disease because they had invented injectable morphine right at the same time that the war happened. And wow, what a problem.

1:25:58Todd MccormickWell, all of the downers, I call them, unfortunately, cater to mankind's desire to escape from reality. And that's what happens. That's why you get so many people taking them and taking them in bigger doses because they're not handling what's going on around them. And so they take this stuff to anesthetize themselves. Unfortunately, the growers, manufacturers, makers, and sellers have escalated the material until it's deadly. And people are getting, are dying from it.

1:26:34SpeakerWell, I think the other one, I think the other thing to look at, like, you know, I deal with, like, just two days, three days ago, when you have a non-verbal autistic 14-year-old that, you know, when they deal with autism, they deal with giving them steroids and they don't really have anything they can really do for them. But if you talk about like when we introduced, like he started to have seizures all of a sudden.

1:27:04SpeakerAnd we introduced some CBD and some CBN for the spasming. And he hasn't had a seizure since. They prescribed him some pharmaceuticals. The parents didn't want to do it. They already had him on the program. He was already taking, you know, P3 and P4 at night and doing really well. But he's gone.

1:27:25Todd MccormickHe's going through that hormone time when he's like 15. By your own description just now, he was obviously lacking those in his system, and when you gave them to him, bang, it stopped the seizures. Whatever works is always my mantra.

1:27:42SpeakerI don't know if it's a lacking of, but I think Kevin is on the pathway of discovering what that is. I say that I don't know. You know, and whether CBD or a combination of CBD-A or CBD-N, whatever it's doing in the receptors, it may not be a lack of, but it may be a triggering effect. What do you think, Kevin? What do you feel, Kevin?

1:28:15KevinI got distracted with too much humor on the side chat there, sorry.

1:28:21KevinSo is this about receptor biology and polymorphisms?

1:28:26SpeakerYeah, we were saying... That's kind of where I'm getting at where it's like somebody... Go ahead, John. No, Tony, go. I was just going to say what John was saying is, you know, that's kind of where somebody might have a cannabinoid and then it triggers and we're, you know, with this autism, they're not having seizures where I feel now I don't know, and I think what will end up happening is you're on the pathway of discovering that it may be like we're just lacking CBDA or CBD or CBN, but more or less that it's triggering certain type of responses and pathways that are being done through this type of cannabinoid supplement.

1:29:13KevinYeah, I mean, my general sense is that all of these diseases that we typically group as one disease, we're going to find throughout the years are really like 300 or 400 different diseases. Like in epilepsy, it's now known there's at least 500 genes involved in epilepsy, and based on which mutation you have and which one of those, you present differently. Sometimes the presentation actually overlaps with mutations in other genes, and so it gets really confusing.

1:29:36KevinI think ASD is going to be the same thing. They're going to start to stratify this and realize there's a host of them that are very environmentally sensitive to toxic loads like acetaminophen and maybe even some of the crap in the vaccines. But as a population, when you take them as a whole, you can't see that trend because there's just too many of the patients labeled with the same thing, and it gets hard to pull those really rare events out of the statistics.

1:30:00KevinThey're doing tremendous amounts of sequencing in that field right now. And they're beginning to find areas that are specifically druggable with either folic acid or vitamin B12. And they've seen this actually with Aracet as well. We found a variant a lot of these autistic kids have Um, that makes it look like childhood Alzheimer's. They're basically, uh, they, they don't have a functioning chat gene, which makes acetylcholine, so they've got to give them an Alzheimer's drug like Aracet to boost that up.

1:30:25KevinTHC would probably work even better because it also boosts acetylcholine levels, but it's the third rail and they don't want to go near it. Um, so I, I'm hopeful in the next five years when this is going to start to get teased apart and they'll start to know whether it's THCA, CBD, or, or, uh, THCV that's needed for each of these things, but it's still, it's a huge wide open field with a lot of promise.

1:30:45Todd MccormickHere's my question. We were talking about when someone gets a dose, for instance, who's been autistic or is having seizures all the time, and they get a dose of CBD and it stops. And I said, that's all well and good. But one of the things that that points out is that person who was having that stuff had an imbalance in their system and maybe didn't have enough cannabinoid type things in their system to keep them.

1:31:15Todd MccormickI mean, I think total evidence, because you gave it to them, bang, they got better. Obviously, their dipstick must have been showing low on that. And I just wonder, there's a vast difference between that kind of thing and someone like me who takes it because of back pain.

1:31:34KevinYeah, there is certainly this honeymoon effect. Maybe it suggests you move to a different cannabinoid when it happens, but there's also cases of peroxidine-dependent epilepsy, which is a vitamin B6 treatable form of epilepsy that you can masquerade with. You might put them on CBD, and for the first six months, it helps, but that only gives more time for the deficit to accumulate, and the seizures come back.

1:31:59KevinSo I think it's important to actually know the circuitry that's broken before you jump on this because that helps you understand whether you just jumped to the right medication out of the gate as opposed to going through a bit of a diagnostic odyssey.

1:32:13David HutchinsonFrom a genetics perspective, what's the adoption rate of the general medical community? What percentage would you say of patients are actually having their gene sequenced?

1:32:24KevinThat's a good question, actually. There's the Blue Cross Blue Shield just approved doing whole exomes. So that's a big move. That's going to probably change things. For all conditions? No, no. There has to be a good letter of medical necessity. And in fact, for a while, they actually even held epilepsy as one that wasn't warranted for sequencing. And so a bunch of the epileptologists kind of freaked out on them.

1:32:47KevinThey maintained that. But now they're allowing and reimbursing for a lot of these tests. I bet once it gets down below the thousand dollar mark, it's going to start to go direct to consumer because, you know, the deductibles are only going to go up with what's going on, at least in our country. And more and more of the patients are going to have to start picking up the tab on, you know, use insurance for what it's really needed, catastrophic needs, as opposed to using it for like an all change.

1:33:14KevinThat's effectively why it's probably broken right now is Americans have gotten used to the fact that every single thing is a $20 copay when insurance shouldn't be something for that. It should be for hurricanes and crap. So until that changes and the price comes down, I don't think the adoption is going to be universal, but there's people talking about doing that at the NICU. It's like any kid that's born that's got a problem, just sequence out of the gate, don't wait, and get an answer as to what it is because time matters then and it's likely to be the fastest route.

1:33:42David HutchinsonWhat's the cost right now for an individual that wanted to have their genome sequenced?

1:33:47KevinSo that depends on what country you're in. If you want to send it out to China, it's illegal to do it direct to consumer there. It's illegal to do it here in the States. You can't sequence your own genome. The FDA has happily made you safe of that. So you have to get a doctor to order the test.

1:34:01David HutchinsonYeah, what's the reason behind that?

1:34:03KevinOh, you might hurt yourself by knowing your genome. Yeah.

1:34:08SpeakerHow? That's fucking stupid, right?

1:34:11KevinIt's cronyism. You know, I think it's really just meant to keep physicians in the loop and make sure that all the genetic counselors in the world are involved in this. I mean, there is a fair amount of education that goes into interpreting this stuff, and most companies doing this are writing the reports so that a physician can read them. If they had to write them such that the average consumer could read them, they'd need a lot more education, a lot more in the reports, so it would change things a little bit.

1:34:36BubblemanThat's what they told us about the Bible. That's true, right?

1:34:43SpeakerIf your analysis shows that you have a susceptibility to a certain disease, you could say that in very fucking clear English. You don't need a fucking big paragraph on the biology of the disease to say that you are susceptible to breast cancer or other kinds of cancers. It's bullshit. Absolute fucking bullshit.

1:35:01Todd MccormickWell, they're afraid someone's going to end up with immortality. Thank you for joining us.

1:35:29KevinThe orange orangutan guy. Wasn't born, defrosted. Exactly. We have seen very few variants in at least the CB1 and CB2. Occasionally we find patients that have hits in those genes, but they're surprisingly well conserved. I think mutations in there are very damaging, and as a result, we don't see them as frequently.

1:35:51Skunk ManAnd endocannabinoid levels, do you have any idea?

1:35:54KevinWe don't, that's a really good point, and we are looking for labs that measure those things in the blood, because that's critical. We've got to get that down.

1:36:01Skunk ManAnd the final question, of course, is what about some sort of FFA disorders, what breaks down the endocannabinoids? Yeah, so we sequence... If that's lacking, then bingo, you're going to have a lot more endocannabinoids. Have you heard of people with too many endocannabinoids?

1:36:23David HutchinsonThere's a lot of research on that. They did spinal taps with people that had schizophrenia and they found higher levels of endocannabinoid metabolites. So there's definitely a range in the population of people that have different levels of expression.

1:36:41KevinWe sequence pha, we sequence magel and dagel, which are both involved in the synthesis of anandamide and 2-AG, and CB1, CB2, probably, I think there's about 12 genes that we cover in the, it really should be 175, but we can't get all of those reimbursed by insurance companies until they can find hard evidence that they actually linked with disease, and that data's just not there. But you can find mice models and other things where you knock out certain genes and they create seizures, and so those ones can be added to a clinical list.

1:37:11KevinThey don't want you sequencing things that are exploratory, and they don't want you sequencing things that might lead, like in pediatric cases, they don't want you sequencing Alzheimer's risks, because what do you do with a pediatric epilepsy patient when you find out they have an Alzheimer's gene? You've now implicated all of their relatives who aren't necessarily consenting to the sequencing process with that information. Likewise, BRCA genes, like those, it makes sense to sequence those in women who are 40.

1:37:34KevinPerhaps it doesn't make sense to sequence those in children until they're consented and know to do the information. In fact, it makes sense to actually sequence that in much younger situations. If you have a heritable form of breast cancer, you want to know about it out of the gate because there's actually something you can do about it. But a lot of cases there aren't. I would argue I want to know the Alzheimer's variants in my family because they've been shown to play a role in chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

1:37:58KevinYou have a six-fold higher likelihood of getting that if you have an ApoE epsilon-3 variant. And that's a variant that induces like a 10- or 12-fold higher risk of getting Alzheimer's. So that's one that we know is kind of a marker. If you got it, you should be sucking on vape pens like Diaz was if you're a fighter, you know, or maybe get out of the game if you don't want to end up where that type of head trauma can lead.

1:38:25KevinDon't play football.

1:38:27Todd MccormickYeah, right. Start smoking it before you forget what the pipe's for. Yeah, right.

1:38:34BubblemanPretty incredible how deep this is all taking us. It's really quite something. Who would have guessed 20 years ago that we would get this deep into it?

1:38:45David HutchinsonYeah, well, it's only going to go deeper with all this, even the genomics of the plant that's coming about. Yeah.

1:38:52Skunk ManAnd I keep searching for proof of too high of endocannabinoid levels being harmful. I'm not sure I really believe it, but I want to search for it.

1:39:05Todd MccormickWell, let me tell you my anecdotal experience with that when they told me I had the skin cancer on my back and my nose. I started consuming an eighth of a cup a day and that went on for about six months. And the only thing that really came about was the next time they sent me to the skin specialist there to take a second look at it and tell how far along it was, it was gone.

1:39:35Skunk ManYep, John, but those are phytocannabinoids, not endocannabinoids. Endocannabinoids are produced in your own body.

1:39:43Todd MccormickWell, I think my body must have been producing some of those.

1:39:48BubblemanWell, if you're consuming essential amino acids, it most likely was.

1:39:55KevinAnd they probably change quite a bit. Like measuring them, you probably need to measure them frequently throughout the day. I understand their elevations go up in the morning. And they degrade really, really quickly. So it's something that is probably not a simplistic measurement to make at just one time point.

1:40:12Skunk ManI actually received the... First patent for using anandamide and anandamide analogs as a control agent for glaucoma. This was years ago.

1:40:28Todd MccormickWell, I don't just sit down and take an eighth of a cup of it. I dose myself with it all day long because I know they degrade quickly. But by the end of the day, I've taken that much.

1:40:40KevinI'm trying to sustain. The phytos, they decay much slower than, you know, I think the only, I think a couple mushrooms make anandamide actually. I think shiktakis might synthesize anandamide. But the plant's cyclic molecules resist rapid degradation, which is one reason why their half-lives are so long in the blood.

1:41:00Skunk ManYeah, we delivered them across the eye barrier with cyclodextrin.

1:41:08SpeakerThese are the anandamide analogs.

1:41:11Skunk ManYeah, correct.

1:41:12SpeakerYes.

1:41:13BubblemanI'm going to go see Paul Stammen speak in a couple of days. I'll ask him about the mushroom that produces anandamide. Yeah.

1:41:20Todd MccormickI met Paul in a tiny cafe way up north 30 years ago. Nice. I was there. Paul's good people. Yeah, he's great, man. He was very, very careful, but he did... Agree to meet me and we met. We had a very excellent talk way back when. Ate breakfast and had a good hour-long conversation with him. He was a very, very informative guy. I mean, that was the day, the day I met him.

1:41:52BubblemanHe gets standing ovations when he speaks. Like, when he speaks, it's unbelievable what he's saying these days.

1:41:59Skunk ManHe had property in Olympus in Washington State. He still does. Yeah, just a few miles from where my mother lived.

1:42:10BubblemanYeah, Rob had been there before.

1:42:13Skunk ManCorrect. So why?

1:42:15BubblemanBecause when I met Paul at a psychedelics conference, and I asked him if he could identify this mushroom, and I held up one of Yoop Dumas' macro photographs of a trichome, and he's just staring at it like, whoa, I've never seen anything like that. I was like, it's a trichome. Sort of good way to break the ice with Paul Stamets, but we ended up talking a little bit about Rob and yourself, actually.

1:42:41Todd MccormickThe mutual friends. I know him before the gray hair and the beard and everything. I met him and his wife and a couple of his little kids there.

1:42:50BubblemanWell, his book taught me how to pick mushrooms. I'll tell you, Psilocybin Mushrooms Around the World, that book literally taught me how to identify close to a dozen psychedelic mushrooms here in British Columbia. Being able to go around and pick them all in different areas was just a huge bonus. It was a big deal. I really was very thankful for that knowledge.

1:43:11Todd MccormickWhat is that, Tony?

1:43:17SpeakerWell, this is 99% THCA with, oh, about eight or nine drops of Karma's Bitch.

1:43:29Todd MccormickI noticed if you take an oil, stick it in a bottle, and stick a chopstick down in it, that those crystals will grow all over the chopstick, and then you can pull it out. Much easier way of harvesting.

1:43:44SpeakerYeah, now I'm like, I am electrically breaking this down into some, it's like sugar sap stuff, but it's...

1:43:55BubblemanI like your laugh track that you have, Tony.

1:44:00SpeakerThat's Spain in the background.

1:44:01BubblemanFucking awesome.

1:44:04SpeakerHe's cracking up because they're watching me woodpecker on these things. I got this little tiny dab tool and I'm just peckering and trying to make this. You know, I'm trying to get a good head stash before I hit the cup here.

1:44:17BubblemanYou should get a macro photograph of that way before you puff that. Yeah, right? I'm telling you.

1:44:24David HutchinsonSo I got to change, I want to try and slide the conversation here over to the genomics front. Kevin's been on a little bit of a, Kevin's been on a little bit of a tear recently, posting some stuff about the open cannabis product.

1:44:37BubblemanOh right, phylos.

1:44:38David HutchinsonYes. You know, we're prone to talk controversial shit here, so let's talk.

1:44:45KevinOkay, so the first controversial thing I'll say is that corporations are people, despite what Mitt Romney says. And so whatever's going on at Phyllis, I do not hold to Sam, Rob, or Mowgli, or anyone who's involved. It's not meant to be a personal attack. It's meant to be a question of what they're stating. And the reason I get on my horse about this is that we also work in the clinical space.

1:45:05David HutchinsonHold on a second.

1:45:06KevinLet me just say, you titled your Facebook post Fraud Alert. Yes, and I have a good reason for that.

1:45:13David HutchinsonThat was not Phyllis, man.

1:45:14KevinWell, what is fraud? Fraud is claiming to be something you're not, right? So, you know, the definition I don't think is too far off. And the reason I'm on a tear about it is mainly because of what I've seen in the clinical space. There's a company called Theranos. Look them up. This is run by someone by the name of Elizabeth Holmes. They became a $9 billion valuation on a technology that was so special you couldn't see it.

1:45:39KevinBoard members couldn't see it. No one saw it. And the whole thing just imploded this week. They laid off 340 people, and her net worth went from $4.5 billion down to zero. So this was because no one was questioning the technology before anything was ever published on it. They just basically grabbed the media. Anytime they had a dissenter out there, they flooded a PR firm on it and basically shut down kind of oppositional voices that questioned their technology.

1:46:05KevinThat's the prelude as to why I'm drawing parallels is that I'm seeing a lot of discussion about how they have an open cannabis genome project, but they've not put any sequence public in their entire existence. It's very easy to put sequence public. I did it just the other day. I put 262 of these things public. There are millions of reads. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:46:49KevinThank you for joining us today.

1:47:06KevinThank you so much for joining us.

1:47:37Todd MccormickWell, there's one thing I would add to this. The state fire marshal figures in on all of this in a big way. And I've been talking to him for the last four days. And I also talked to the state fire marshal in Colorado and in Washington and in Utah, not Utah, Oregon. They all feel the same way. The thing the guy in California said to me was he wanted to see my patent and he wanted to see the standing of my company.

1:48:10Todd MccormickAnd so I sent him the company standing, the background, and the patent. And then he got in touch with me and he says, okay, he says, we determined that you're legitimate and we do want to talk to you about this. He says, we've had a lot of calls from what I call knuckleheads. That refused to come out of the shadows. And he says you're the first one to come out of the shadows and that I could check up on and you're all legitimate.

1:48:38Todd MccormickSo we want to lean heavily on you for fire code information and how to go about this because the fire guys have had experience with gas. And the people who are cheating right now and doing BHO off to the side have a little bit of experience with it, but none of them really have the kind of experience it needs. You can tell the symptom is, look at the systems that they're making.

1:49:04Todd MccormickThey're making everything out of pipes. And that's what happens when you get pipe welders to make systems. Everything looks like a pipe to them. And so they make these pipe systems. I've seen them 10 feet tall, and I can tell you that this is a bad system on a lot of different levels. All these pipes have similar problems channeling. You can never pack them twice. Never the same pack twice, I always say.

1:49:31Todd MccormickAnd so people who are depending on you can pack so much in ours, that doesn't mean you're going to get that kind of a yield out of it. And the fire marshals, Are aware of the shortcomings of all these systems. And that's going to figure mightily into all of this. I mean, that's aside from the police department and the political crowd and the whole nine yards. It comes down to, will the fire marshal allow this to happen?

1:49:59Todd MccormickAnd I'm happy to say that from the talks I'm having with the California State Fire Marshal, That similar kinds of systems that are deemed safe, and they're going to use my system as a model for that, are going to be allowed here after November.

1:50:16BubblemanI have a question, John. Not to cut you off, but how did we get to talking about this? Kevin had stated a specific point. How are we talking about making VHO in California?

1:50:25KevinI think I can connect it in that he was discussing regulatory bodies that can be captured. But I think the difference with John's experiencing is state-to-state regulation is actually like a laboratory of regulation, which I find to be actually much more effective because you can see different regulations be tested in Nevada versus Colorado versus California. That frustrates people because you have heterogeneity out there, but it actually, in a new market, I think can help Demonstrate certain regulation that works versus like stuff in Washington state that may not, you know.

1:50:58KevinAnd that helps us, I think, distill what are the best regulatory models. What I worry about is when they get heavily centralized and like when you look at the FDA's model, half of the revenue comes in from the PDUFA Act, which is the pharmaceuticals directly pay them. So they regulate. You're not the customer of the FDA. It's the pharmaceutical industry that is. And that's clear by their balance sheet.

1:51:19KevinWe don't want that necessarily in the cannabis market. We want to try and foster, I think, a lot more competition in the regulatory structure so we can distill what things work and which don't.

1:51:28Todd MccormickThat's right. But the regulatory group, these fire guys who call themselves the code development department,

1:51:39Todd MccormickThese guys are the ones who develop the code and start enforcing it. They've got enforcement agents. And so, Mark, to answer your question, it was about that regulatory agencies, but the fire people are definitely going to be a regulatory agency that figures into it. And they won't be the only ones. That will figure into it.

1:52:05Skunk ManAnd Kevin, I can't really answer for Mobley or for Philos, but I've been told that within a few weeks they will release information. And one of the slight difficulties they have is all of the people who contributed have to give permission for the information to be released publicly. That's slowing it down slightly.

1:52:29David HutchinsonThey are a service laboratory.

1:52:31Skunk ManIt will be.

1:52:32David HutchinsonYeah, they are a service laboratory and it is their client's data. So, you know, they can't just be open about it unless everybody else signs off on that.

1:52:42KevinBut that's not the mission statement in the Open Cannabis Project. It's that they are going to try and protect everybody by putting this stuff public. And their protection is an IP protection point. And the worst thing you can do for IP right now is to hoard that data and keep it private. If they're trying to define what the public and the prior art is.

1:53:02Skunk ManI agree with you and I think in the end they will, but I can say that if I contribute particular genetics to them, whether or not that be published publicly or not should be my decision. For example, that would mean I could not register that variety. Thank you for joining us.

1:53:44David HutchinsonAnd so, is genetic, sorry?

1:53:47KevinYou do.

1:53:47Todd MccormickYou do.

1:53:48KevinYeah, there are people who are sequencing and submitting. In fact, the first one that issued has a BTBD genotype mentioned in claim one. It wasn't, well, I mean, you know my involvement in that, so. I'm not meaning to needle it all. I'm just saying that you can use it as prior art. You may not need it. I agree with you in that getting gene patents isn't going to work anymore.

1:54:14KevinThat's not the intent. It's more to prove that something's in the prior art. You can get a DNA fingerprint of it and put that public, and that can demonstrate that a prior business use existed at a certain date and time. You may not get any claims off of it, but it can still be used as a defensive form of IP. And it just helps to build the prior art.

1:54:33KevinSo if the USPTO decides to look at another patent similar to the one that issued, they presumably have to search the prior art and see if there's something else out there just like it. And if there is, then... Can you understand...

1:54:45Skunk ManHow many, how many, why? If somebody spends 10 years developing a new cannabis variety with specific unique whatevers, that they might want to sequence it to see where it fits into the big picture, but at the same time, they might not want that information publicly submitted. 100% agree.

1:55:08KevinI'm not, and I don't have any issue with people holding data private. That's totally legit. I was only bringing up the fact that they are attempting to make the pitch that they're putting all this stuff public and being an open cannabis project.

1:55:19Skunk ManI honestly believe, Kevin, they are trying to. I believe that.

1:55:24David HutchinsonYeah. You're also, remember, there's two entities there. There's the open cannabis project, and then there's Philo's. So you can't paint the ball under the same brush, right? Because it is two separate entities with different agendas.

1:55:37KevinI believe the agenda is shared, but that's my interpretation of what we can say in certain public environments.

1:55:45David HutchinsonYeah, but hold on a second. Let's put that in the context that there's really three or four people in the business, and you're one of them, right? Yeah, that's totally understandable. It's hard for it not to come off a little bit as sour grapes, dude, and that's just my personal opinion. The other argument is that you probably would benefit from that information being released more than anybody else because you're already looking at things in the genome that other people can't see.

1:56:14KevinI'll be totally straight with you that if phylos is the best thing that ever happened to us, without them being around, everyone thought we were crazy. Once they showed up, investors realized, oh my god, there's a market here. Someone else is doing it. So the last thing I want is for them to disappear. But yes, I understand that it looks as if it's a sour grape thing, but it's just coming from a person who has always put data public before they've gone to the New York Times.

1:56:40Skunk ManThat may be at the same time. John Page has patents. You have patents.

1:56:49David HutchinsonYeah, exactly.

1:56:50Skunk ManAnd so, I mean, what is reality?

1:56:54KevinThat's a different topic than claiming you're putting things public and doing the opposite. I am putting things public. In fact, our sequence all went public in 2011 before anything, even before we hit the news.

1:57:09David HutchinsonThen you've had a patent for cannabis genomes and uses thereof.

1:57:13KevinIt's a defensive patent that's out there so that no one else can file IP on that. Look at those claims. Those aren't claims that are meant to issue. That's an application that puts the sequence in the hands of the USPTO. So when the USPTO does a preliminary search report for other patents, they can't miss it. If you just hang it on the cloud, they can miss it.

1:57:34KevinBut if it's registered with them, they can't miss that. And we all know gene patents have been basically obliterated, not only by recent court rulings, but by methods that we've published that obliterate gene patents. So we've been on the tear of making sure those are happening.

1:57:47Skunk ManWhat did that patent cost, Kevin?

1:57:49KevinThat cost us $20,000 to make it public so that we wouldn't end up with the shit show we have in the genome.

1:57:54Skunk ManThat's all it cost, just $20,000.

1:57:56KevinNo, that was just to get the sequence registered with them because it was such a large file. The filing on top of that was probably more. And the reason we're motivated to do that is when we looked at what happened with sequencing children.

1:58:07Skunk ManAnd Kevin, just to be clear, I'm not saying that you have a bad motivation or a good motivation. I was just mentioning that to me it seems like everybody in the field wants to somehow capitalize their intellectual property.

1:58:26KevinWell, maybe that's so, but the story here is a bit different. We worked slavishly on getting the human genome public, and I actually did this on the government's dole. I was a government employee sequencing at MIT to get the human genome public, right? What happened after that was that 20% of the human genome ended up being patented, such that when we want to sequence kids with epilepsy, we have to dance around 4,000 gene patents.

1:58:49KevinThat was the case of the business in 2010 or 2011. A lot of that IP landscape has changed a bit. But nevertheless, we didn't want to repeat that because that is a massive pain in the ass and a hindrance to anyone trying to get into the field. If we had 24,000 patents on the cannabis genome, it's going to slow innovation, there's no doubt. And there's no reason that that should exist.

1:59:11KevinIf you want to defend against that, the best thing you can do is put sequins public so there's prior art everywhere so that people, you know, you can overturn some of these patents that are making very broad claims. The current patent that issued is pretty broad. It's 3% THC, 3% CBD, and no myrcene. That covers an enormous swath that are, despite us putting stuff public, Chemdog was not that.

1:59:32KevinChemdog was a high THC strain, and it doesn't fit that. So I don't know if that's evidence that that worked. Yeah, yeah, but I wish we had sequenced something with CBD back then, you know, and had that public, because maybe that would have kept that more in the open domain.

1:59:49David HutchinsonWell, I don't think it would because if you, you know, there was massive amounts of, you know, market analysis that was done on that and it was the case that all type T plants were myrcene dominant. All the stuff that was on the market was pretty much myrcene dominant. It could be the case.

2:00:03KevinYeah, I wouldn't know. It was the case.

2:00:05David HutchinsonIt was the case for sure. So if you go around and you still look, they're actually quite rare to see non-myrcene dominant type T plants. And that's just because people hadn't bred them for flavor, right? They've been

2:00:18SpeakerIt was more of a wild type expression.

2:00:21David HutchinsonAnd listen, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. You know, I've got a ton of respect for you. I think you're one of the smartest guys in the industry. But I also got to have my say. No, it's fair enough.

2:00:32KevinBut just from a scientific perspective, do you want to see this in the New York Times and then held private? Is that the scientific method or is it you put your data public and then the New York Times calls you? Because no one can verify what Phyllis has done.

2:00:46David HutchinsonNo, and, you know, everybody does their own different types of marketing, and I think that Phylos has actually been quite clever in their marketing. To be perfectly honest, I don't think any of the genetics companies have really done anything substantial with cannabis in terms of breeding yet, which is what I'm waiting for. I think your microbiome test is great. The sex test, come on, let's be honest, it's a gimmick, and people were able to do it in 95.

2:01:12David HutchinsonI did it my first time in 97, so, you know. How useful is it, really? Who is growing plants for production and sexing them with DNA markers?

2:01:24KevinIt's like a brewery. They just do that once or twice a year when they want new strains. It moves. People buy it. It's not as if everyone's diving into the feminized seed market with 100% faith.

2:01:38David HutchinsonI don't know if you saw the pictures from last week in Morocco. I just got back from Morocco with Rob. The production farmers there have taken to feminized seeds like ducks to water. They've shown that it really is the preferred.

2:01:52BubblemanBut isn't Morocco infamously known for just shitty weed and shitty hash?

2:01:58David HutchinsonWell people are trying to produce more consistency than they were in the past and they definitely are. They're producing a hell of a lot more flowers and a lot more biomass which is the point of your hash producing region. Hash is population hash. What we see in North American markets, which is single cultivar, one genotype hash, you don't see in hash producing regions. It's just not done that way.

2:02:27David HutchinsonIt's done from populations. And from a production standpoint, it's a hell of a lot easier to plant 20,000 seeds than it is to plant 20,000 clones. It's less resources.

2:02:42David HutchinsonYou know, when you start seeing some of the varieties and some of the varieties that we developed that were presented at CanMed, they showed that there is less variation in the seed lot when grown from seeds than the variation that you see between grows with the same clone. So it is possible to develop varieties that are true from seed. It just doesn't, it hasn't really been done.

2:03:06KevinThey are genetically further apart from what we've seen sequencing. Not that we've measured all the chemotypes that you guys elegantly did, but the genetics are more distant from siblings and from clones, obviously. Absolutely, because they're not clones.

2:03:20David HutchinsonIt's a sexual recombination. But there's a whole lot of techniques that'll bring that down. In the real plant breeding world, they're doing these things like reverse breeding and busting apart hybrids and creating... True breeding parents from them and then you're recapitulating the hybrid by breeding them back together. So you end up with essentially all clones but in seed. The real plant breeding world is going to change the way things are done in cannabis.

2:03:47David HutchinsonThere's no doubt about that.

2:03:50KevinAnd with that, I think you're right, and that's going to come with marker-assisted selection, and that is going to be a requirement of a DNA measurement that looks at 10 or 100,000 markers across the genome to track the very traits that you're trying to breed. Thank you for joining us.

2:04:29David HutchinsonSo, you know, when we sat down after the Emerald Cup last year, we, you know, you guys had talked, we all talked a little bit about getting together a consortium of all the, you know, the people that are interested in genomics and trying to find projects that can all be worked on together, right? And so we can split up some of these costs and not have a battle over this.

2:04:50KevinWell, the first, I think the first part of any partnership would be making sure everyone can see your data.

2:04:57Skunk ManCollaborations don't work if you're hiding your shit, but that's just me. Once that hurdle is cleared, anything is possible you're saying.

2:05:09KevinI think it just irks me that if they are filing IP and the genetics people have gifted to them, that would be really unfortunate. And they are going to turn into a breeding company. There's no doubt in my mind that they will.

2:05:20Skunk ManListen, they're not filing any sort of IPs. That's for sure. But because first of all, you've got to understand that almost all the materials they got, all they got is the genetic information. They don't have the living materials.

2:05:38Todd MccormickWell, you have to be careful these days because look what Monsanto did with corn. Talk about picking up the ball and running in the wrong fucking direction. And sooner or later, some of these seed breeding companies and others are going to head right down that very same path, you know? So it's a bit of a sticky wicket, as they say in Canada, right, Mark? Just kidding.

2:06:03BubblemanSomething like that.

2:06:05David HutchinsonIt's actually sticky wicket A.

2:06:08BubblemanHey, yeah, it's sticky wicked, eh?

2:06:11SpeakerSticky dab tool.

2:06:14BubblemanYeah, I got those all over the place.

2:06:16David HutchinsonWell, Kevin, I still have a bunch of samples, and I've been collecting a lot more stuff recently, clonally, that we're going to chemotype everything. I've got the majority of your kit, but every time you guys send me something, there's something missing. So I still do intend to get you that, but we need to go over the kit and figure out the parts that are missing. You never told me stuff was missing.

2:06:36David HutchinsonCome on.

2:06:36KevinYou've had that for months, and you're going to throw me under the bus like that? I'm not throwing you under the bus.

2:06:42David HutchinsonI'm telling you I have a bunch of samples I'm going to give you. Okay.

2:06:45KevinYeah, well, yeah, let's make that happen. And it's up to you. Again, I resonate with what Sam's saying here is we are not about forcing people to put everything they have in public. That's not the point. It's just if you say you're going to do it, it'd be nice if you did. But if you want to keep it private, you can. We don't have a stake in that fight.

2:07:02David HutchinsonI have no interest to make it private. One thing I'd like to do is look at the variability that's available in the patient system versus the corporate system in Canada. I think that would be a pretty interesting...

2:07:15KevinThat's a good point. Yeah, there's a diversity there. I bet there's more diversity out in the dispensaries than there are in those large production centers, right?

2:07:23David HutchinsonYeah, that's what I'm thinking too. So we just need to find a way to collect whatever we can get out of the LPs. Of course, you have to have someone that's signed up to each one, and then that person then has to buy the entire catalog of the company.

2:07:39BubblemanI'll do it.

2:07:41David HutchinsonYeah, if you're anybody that's a registered patient, if you're listening and you're a registered patient under the ACMPR in Canada and you want to donate material that is, you know, we're going to have to develop some kind of chain of custody thing, but yeah, I'm really interested in looking at that. So anybody who wants to be involved in that project, please get a hold of us somehow and we can figure out getting samples.

2:08:09Todd MccormickSamples. Everyone. Get a hold of you somehow.

2:08:13KevinI would encourage you to look into the microbiome of that market as well because there have been a couple of recalls based on Enterobacter and a few other contaminants that have occurred. And the paper we just put out shows like two-thirds of the samples we sampled here at Mass had Clostridium botulinum in it. And it won't be picked up on an aerobic 3M Petri film because it's an anaerobe.

2:08:36KevinSo those spores are pasteurization resistant, although I think it's at 125. Don't quote me on that. But you can kill them, but there's a temperature that some drying and curing won't kill. And if they get in your oils or any water-based hash, there could be problems.

2:08:52David HutchinsonYeah. I know you were investigating getting into the Canadian market and showing the regulatory bodies that it was sufficient. Are you having any success in that?

2:09:02KevinWe haven't pushed that hard into Canada yet. We've been mostly focused on here in the States, California, Nevada, Colorado, and some areas where it's fully legal. I think there's still a little bit more room. Canada appears as if it seems to be pretty locked up in terms of who gets licenses and how you operate in there. We're just not as familiar with it, I guess.

2:09:26Todd MccormickWhat do you think about taking hash, treating it in the overhead of liquid nitrogen as a way of getting red Any little creatures that might be crawling around on it? Praise them to death, in other words.

2:09:41KevinI don't know the data on cryogenics with astragillus spores. That's actually a good question. That might do it. There you go. File a patent on that. Go.

2:09:56David HutchinsonHave you tried microbiome sequencing of resins? Obviously the market in Europe is a lot different than the market in North America.

2:10:05David HutchinsonAsh is pretty dirty, so it would be interesting to see.

2:10:10KevinWe've gotten DNA out of it, and it has, there has been folks who've sent us pure, it's probably water-based hash is my guess, we don't know anything about how it was produced, but I would assume that would foster a microbiome, and it probably plays a huge role in metabolizing and changing some of the cannabinoid profiles, because those bugs are all active, hydroxylating different parts of the compounds.

2:10:32KevinSo I know we'd love to. We're not in a good state to do that. You'd have to send us DNA, and we would be interested in knowing what's in there.

2:10:42Skunk ManKevin, did you see the Moroccan paper where they extracted DNA from cannabis resin?

2:10:49David HutchinsonI thought I sent it to you. I might not have. They actually did a paper where it was a French group, and I think it was a French group, and they did DNA extractions from ash.

2:11:00KevinYeah, it's in there. We've certainly gotten yeast and mold signals off our qPCR from DNA. I just don't know how it was produced. People send us DNA, so I've got no idea whether... You imagine if you put these things through a CO2 extractor, it's going to rip a lot of these bugs to shreds, but not all methods produce it that way.

2:11:20David HutchinsonYeah, well, those are more extracts. In Europe, it's like sifted hash, really, so you're going to have everything from what the... The bugs were eating at the chat all over the plants to whatever fungi and molds are present in the samples.

2:11:36KevinYeah, there's a good paper I put up on the Facebook site here on, they measured in clover how Clostridium botulinum is getting into the plant. It comes in through the roots and vascularizes and gets to the flowers. And so I think that's where most of the actual vasculature is, or most of the microbiomes are coming from. I don't think it's from people necessarily trimming it with dirty hands.

2:11:55KevinIt has to do with the soil that you're actually growing. And those bugs are getting in from down there. And we can see, we showed in that paper, a huge shift in If you have Trichoderma or Bacillus around, those things are going to knock out Aspergillus and knock out Penicillium. And so you want those around. The biggest problem is that you're penalized in the current regulatory structure if you use beneficial microbes because they grow on these three and culture dishes.

2:12:23KevinSo you can't use too much of that without it basically shooting you in the foot. And it's giving a lot of false positives on the yeast and mold test. So we've got yeast and mold test is probably used out there that grows Bacillus. You know, what are you going to do when you get a high use of mold count? Some people are going to add fungicides, like Eagle 20.

2:12:40KevinSo it's a nasty feedback loop if we don't get it right. For turkey gamma, I used it for years.

2:12:46Skunk ManAnd we used to use it when the field was fallow, not when there was a crop in there.

2:12:53KevinThere's all types of great literature in Trichoderma. Actually, it makes like a chitinase that goes and destroys other fungus and molds, and it's usually destroying the ones you don't want in the plant. So it's a very good beneficial microbe.

2:13:06Skunk ManOur primary foe was Fusarium.

2:13:10KevinYep. Yeah, that's where it's published. Yeah. So those are, we want to try and convince regulators that you don't want to penalize people for using beneficial microbes because it's probably the best way around using fungicides is if you have a healthy soil, you're not going to end up with these things. And at the same time, the methods that we're using, this 3MP treatment, Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:13:59KevinAnd he's a vaporizer. So the vaporization wasn't getting rid of the spores because it's not pyrolytic enough. And we've got a lot of immunocompromised patients that might be resorting to that because people think that's healthier. So there's that, that if we don't get this right, we're just going to be randomly failing 20% of the crops out there based on what's in the soil.

2:14:19Todd MccormickYou know, what I always recommend is when people are doing extractions to avoid getting a lot of that nonsense is to, number one, In the bottom of your extraction chamber, no matter how crappy it may be, or it might be a pipe that some jerk welded together, before the stuff gets out of the pipe into the lower chamber, there should have about a five or six inch layer of five to seven angstrom

2:14:49SpeakerMolecular sieves.

2:14:50Todd MccormickMolecular sieves. And then on top of that, you should have a one micron cloth bag filled with activated charcoal so that your entire extract goes through this activated charcoal, which, I mean, to get the right stuff, that's miles and miles and miles that that stuff has to make it through. And then it has to make it through the molecular sieves and the one micron filter. I understand that they're smaller, in some cases, than one micron, but the molecular sieves measure five to seven angstroms.

2:15:19Todd MccormickAnd they're not likely to get through that. To my knowledge, I might be wrong. So you can, if I'm wrong, you can tell me, but that's what I suggest.

2:15:31KevinYeah, the extraction world probably makes a lot of this, a lot of this stuff new. There's probably a lot more, you know, safety there. I think the only issues, if any spores get through, that does make the prime environment for Clostridium. And that's what Colorado recently put some paper out about their concerns over this getting into the oils. But I don't know if they've actually detected it or how frequently they've detected it, but they're issuing some warning statements.

2:15:57SpeakerHmm.

2:15:59Todd MccormickWell, as I said once again, you have to take the precautions. And if you go to the trouble to filter it there and then filter it as it comes out of the lower chamber using the same method, the activated charcoal molecular seeds, you're far less likely to pass along any spores. And in addition to that, on occasion when I've had any suspicion, long back when whenever I first developed my method for separating trichromes out of a crushed up mix, I was looking for a method to get spores and fungus out electrostatically.

2:16:37Todd MccormickAnd I was researching a way to find the right frequency that would attract them out in an electrostatic process with a plate up above. And one day I dialed in a certain frequency and turned it on and all the trichromes jumped out of the mix and up to the top thing. And lo and behold, serendipity at work once again. I discovered how to separate all the trichromes out of a given amount of crushed up marijuana.

2:17:06Todd MccormickAnd I was still left looking for the method to get rid of the spores and stuff. But I thought I was heading down the right road when I ran and bumped into that by accident.

2:17:17BubblemanWell, on a side note, I just took a terp dip of the mojito. What a wonderful terpene profile that is. Fruity, delicious wonderfulness.

2:17:31BubblemanWhat's that?

2:17:34Todd MccormickThe rest of us are sitting here going, I don't have any goddamn mojito turfs to smoke.

2:17:40SpeakerTony does. Prevently online. You could get them in all 50 states.

2:17:45BubblemanAnd all the provinces.

2:17:47SpeakerAnd all provinces.

2:17:48Todd MccormickYeah, I bought a bottle of them. It didn't last long. Talk about somebody being paranoid about spilling something. Thank you for watching.

2:18:28Todd MccormickThe rest of it I very propitiously took extreme care to dip it in the bottle until the bottle turned amber like the one Tony's always showing until it was all gone and I found myself using a dab of oil trying to look like a sponge and a squeegee trying to wipe more of it out of there.

2:18:45BubblemanYeah, that's natural. You did the right thing, Indra.

2:18:49Todd MccormickI figured. Amazing stuff. I don't care what anybody says about it in the comments over there. Once you try this stuff. Listen, I smoked joints for 53 years, I guess, and all told. I started smoking joints at age 17 in Vietnam under fire behind the front wheel of a disc and a half truck that we had to jump out of and jump in the ditch to keep us from being shot to death.

2:19:18Todd MccormickAnd a black guy flipped me a joint because I was pissing myself. I was literally, my pants were literally wet. I was peeing on my leg because bullets were hitting around us and they were hitting little rocks and the rocks would explode and hit you in the face. And that just scares the living dog shit out of you. So he flipped it over to me and I took a few puffs off it and then the next thing I know a rock hits me and I look up and he's like, give it back.

2:19:44Todd MccormickI guess my first experience was bogarting a joint in Vietnam. And I smoked them for years until Marcus introduced me to a little tabinator with a battery-heated nail in it. And I thought, yeah, I'll try this once in a while. Three days later, I haven't smoked a joint now for four days. And I did try one. It tasted like hay.

2:20:11BubblemanThat's what they taste like to me, just burnt plant matter. I'm just like, I just don't have the, I don't have the love. I used to just love joints, but it's been almost 15 years since I smoked one.

2:20:24Todd MccormickYou and me, I could roll it with one hand. I mean, I was a joint-o-matic. I loved them, but you broke me of that habit, Marcus.

2:20:36BubblemanWell, you know, I'm sorry, or I'm not sure if you want me to say you're welcome or I'm sorry, but either way, I'm both.

2:20:43Todd MccormickNo, it was all good, man. Instead of smoking 15 joints a day now, I just fire up the nail thing about four times or five maybe, and it does me very, very good.

2:20:55BubblemanIf you have an interest in, I'm sure you probably have many ins, Kevin, into Canada, but I could point you in a couple of directions if you want to... Look into Canada as something you want to pursue with your business.

2:21:10KevinYeah, how do they run the testing up there? Do they have labs province to province, or is it all sent through one testing?

2:21:19David HutchinsonNo, there's a series of labs that are licensed to be able to handle cannabis, so you'd have to deal with one of them. Right now, everybody is doing the same Petri dish kind of test.

2:21:30Todd MccormickWhat was the lab? It's what's prescribed. What lab did you use, Mark, to test the seed oil I made for you?

2:21:36BubblemanThe seed oil I sent to three separate labs in British Columbia, I would have to go back and look at those papers. They weren't companies that were generally working with cannabis from a medical perspective, but they were companies that had tested hemp for protein powder isolate percentages as well as for the quality of the oil, for the breakdown of the oil of the EFAs and all the goodness in there.

2:22:04Todd MccormickWell, they were competent labs though.

2:22:07BubblemanYeah, all three of them were competent labs. It's a little bit different in this sort of cannabis industry here in particular, especially the way our government is choosing to go about it. I think it's definitely still, like I'm sure Chimera agrees, like there's a lot of room to move for a good lab to come into Canada and start really... You know, the same way you, John, want to talk to the fire marshals, it would be nice to have a group of competent people that are coming from this particular industry that would be able to help with the way testing is going to be done in the future, I think, personally.

2:22:43Todd MccormickWell, I'll answer your question about me doing business there. You already know the answer to that, silly man.

2:22:50David HutchinsonWell, one of the problems with the labs in Canada, I find, is that other prices are really ridiculously high. If you want a full complement, it really gets up there. Compared to the prices in California and even Washington, I find it's really insane.

2:23:04Todd MccormickYeah, we probably run into California labs is half of them don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. A friend of mine had some oil that he took to the lab. Three times in a row. Twice they pronounced it crystal clear clean. Third time they said it was dirty. Fourth time they retested the same stuff they took out of the refrigerator and decided it was clean as a whistle.

2:23:28Todd MccormickSo how can you go to that kind of a laboratory for anything other than to throw your money away?

2:23:33KevinWhat were they testing? Heavy metals, pesticides, or microbials?

2:23:37Todd MccormickNo, they were looking for THC content and residuals.

2:23:44David HutchinsonYeah, if you want to do the full spectrum up in Canada, you end up spending a thousand bucks a sample, which is kind of ridiculous, you know?

2:23:53BubblemanYeah, it's a little bit too much.

2:23:55David HutchinsonYeah, well, it's like when you can get terpenes and cannabs done in the States for, you know, roughly a hundred bucks. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me, but I think what happens is there's not enough volume right now. Maybe there's not enough competition.

2:24:08Todd MccormickYou can get it done in China for 20 bucks.

2:24:12David HutchinsonYeah, well, our sample cost was about 30 bucks down in California, I think. So it's, you know, it definitely does, there is a cost. You know, once you, you got to factor in not just the, you know, the consumables cost, but also your lab tech and everything, right? So.

2:24:31Todd MccormickYeah, it trades more to China than the lab test was for a complete panel.

2:24:36SpeakerIn order to have reproducible results, it has to be done in a lab that's ISO certified and has quarterly audits to make sure that not only the instruments are up to speed, but also the people and the technique is up to speed. Or else it is, just like what John said, throwing money away. You're going to get results all over the fucking place until this thing gets entirely standardized.

2:24:59SpeakerJust like the way it should be for all other industries.

2:25:02KevinYeah, and you've got to also know that a lot of these folks are forced to buy used equipment because the companies that make them aren't going to sell to anybody that touches Canada, so it's more than 10 grand. At least in the States, there's all this anti-money laundering, you know, your customer regs. That's right.

2:25:15Todd MccormickYou can't set up anything in a laboratory for 10 grand, except maybe some glassware.

2:25:22David HutchinsonYeah, Biolumix, they got bought out, and the new company totally cut them out of the space. I mean, they honored the Honored the companies that were doing, that already had invested, but they weren't taking on new cannabis clients. So. That's probably a good thing.

2:25:38KevinThose things don't pick up aspergillus either.

2:25:41David HutchinsonYeah. But they, I mean, they are, people are using them though in the space. Yeah.

2:25:48BubblemanDave Hutchinson says... Sorry, go ahead. Just Dave Hutchinson hit me up on Facebook chat here. He said, MB Labs on the island do full cannabinoid and terpene profile for under 200 Canadian.

2:26:03David HutchinsonYeah, it's still expensive, but yeah, it's not. I mean, when you think about it, you get that and then you add on your, you know, you add on your microbials and your heavy metals and you're easily up over 500 bucks.

2:26:14BubblemanMm-hmm.

2:26:15David HutchinsonBut, yeah. Yeah, MB Labs are good. I'm not in love with their lab format or their lab report format, but the information is definitely there.

2:26:27SpeakerNow, this is perhaps, again, maybe one of the unintended consequences of the DEA's lackluster decision earlier in the summer to do anything about changing the schedule. If they would have at least knocked it off the schedule, I mean, all kinds of universities and all kinds of people would love to work on this, but because, again, it's Schedule 1, it makes it prohibitive for the investment or makes it prohibitive in terms of risks for someone who wants to get involved.

2:26:56SpeakerAnd, you know, solve these problems or standardize the testing in the industry.

2:27:01Todd MccormickYeah, a lot of the labs in California are scared shitless after that came out because they've been testing it for a very long time and there's a huge record of them doing so with the results. And nobody's really sure how that's all going to shake out now. So a lot of them are ceasing operation.

2:27:23David HutchinsonReally? I didn't hear that. Who's shooting that? Who's not operating?

2:27:28Todd MccormickI don't have the list here. I just had the email from a friend who informed me that a business that he and another person who's well-heeled with money were considering opening a lab in California and after they got done with the current regulatory stuff and the applications and so forth and looked around at what was going on and examined a few other companies for viability and long-term Thank you for joining us.

2:28:23SpeakerWell, now, wait a second. There is a billion-dollar drug testing industry that's testing urine. What we need to do is we need to take those people who are testing urine and use that infrastructure to test products that people are going to use and not waste product.

2:28:39David HutchinsonThat's exactly what's going to happen. No, that's what's going to happen for sure.

2:28:43SpeakerIt is what's going to happen.

2:28:45David HutchinsonYeah, because they won't touch it while it's federally illegal, but if it does become federally illegal, they'll roll in and stomp all over the little guys.

2:28:52SpeakerAnd those are the testing companies that now provide the HPLC standards, so they have to have a Schedule I license, right? And they're, again, entrenched in the same type of analytical methods, which is basically HPLC, to make sure that, you know, these compounds aren't in people's urine. It's a billion dollar industry.

2:29:11Todd MccormickAnd then you've got these jokers who have now said they've developed a breathalyzer, which is a load of horse, steaming horse shit, that can tell on the spot whether or not you've been smoking pot. And, I mean, it's just not, it's just not true.

2:29:26SpeakerThat's a load of bullshit. So until the amount of THC or THC metabolites is statistically correlated to a wide swath of users in the population to driving impairment where that's the only reason, everything is bullshit. And you know that that study doesn't exist because we would know about that. It takes years to do those things.

2:29:45Skunk ManI've seen the breathalyzer study. Not only can they tell exactly how much THC and CBD and THCV and CBG and et cetera, et cetera you have, but the exact terpene profile. They can't link it to driver impairment. That's the problem. Wait a minute. It works way better than a GCFID.

2:30:16David HutchinsonIn Europe, they use this, like in Czech Republic and Germany and Italy, they use this spit test. They essentially put like a little dipstick under your tongue, and if you've smoked in like the last hour or two, they can detect it.

2:30:31KevinI'm with Mark on this. I don't think it has any, the levels in your blood are meaningless next to impairment. I mean, there's cases where ADHD patients drive better with THC in their blood than when they don't have it. Thank you for watching.

2:31:02Todd MccormickWell, they want to do that sort of thing because they want to support the industry that sends people to jail for it instead of trying to understand it, unfortunately. You know, this is what's going on. These people who are control freaks are busy trying to make a business out of how to control us.

2:31:17Skunk ManCannabis always has been a multi-billion dollar industry. It's just, unfortunately, it's the goddamn piss testers who've been making the money.

2:31:27BubblemanYeah, seriously. And the prison owners. Well, how about we give props to Damian Marley for creating a giant grow inside of an ex-prison in California.

2:31:39Skunk ManHe's also retraining the guards to become gardeners.

2:31:45Todd MccormickIt'd be a lot harder for the feds to come and push his front door in, won't it? I'll tell you. Feds land in prison in helicopter.

2:31:55SpeakerNow people are going to break into the prison.

2:31:58Todd MccormickYeah, not like me. Did you see the picture of that place?

2:32:03BubblemanI suspect he's going to change it a little bit, I hope.

2:32:06Todd MccormickI wouldn't. No burglars will be found there, I guarantee that. It'll have to be an inside job because take a look at the aerial photo of that place online and look at the fencing.

2:32:21Skunk ManThe PA is going to be flown reggae on the PA. We're going to paint it dark green.

2:32:28Todd MccormickI told them they should lose alligators in between the fences. What the hell? Wow.

2:32:34KevinI read some stats somewhere that like 10% of the energy grid in Colorado is now cannabis lights. Is that true? That seems like a big number. 10% of the energy consumption is lights for cannabis, which makes you think putting all this crap indoors is crazy if you have any.

2:32:52David HutchinsonThere's no doubt that that's a coming discussion point. We do use an insane amount of electricity.

2:33:01Todd MccormickGo on Pacific Gas and Electric and they will show you some statistics there that will blow your mind about how much is being used for lights. And they've got it worked out because they've got this new little system that beams in every single day back to the mother thing in the At PAG&E's headquarters at Crystal Palace and tells them exactly how much you've been using and what kind.

2:33:25BubblemanOh, yeah, and what time you used it at and for how long. Yeah, that smart meter shit is crazy.

2:33:29Todd MccormickAll of it, yes. Smart meter. Yeah, that's a nice name for it, huh? Smart meter.

2:33:35BubblemanWell, that's what they called them here in Canada when they were like, we're going to come change your meter for you. And people were like, I don't want my meter changed.

2:33:43Todd MccormickYeah, no shit. Why is your electricity this high 12 hours a day, sir? We'd like to see what you're doing. Well, I'm welding brass pots to steel. My welder uses a lot of electricity. And then there's my thing that I use to make my pots after I fire them and all that stuff.

2:34:03BubblemanIt's data mining regardless. I mean, it's finding out when people are home and when they're using particular types of electricity and how often they're using it. I don't know. It just seems... It's always, everything's like that. Oh, but this will be so convenient. Could also be like, oh, this could be implemented for evil.

2:34:21Skunk ManYou got to remember, when they get a tip in the Netherlands, what they do is they send up a tip of a grow. They send up a little portable drone and it flies around and it sniffs for terpenes.

2:34:38Skunk ManThat's not a joke.

2:34:41David HutchinsonNo, it's true.

2:34:41Todd MccormickYou're funny, though.

2:34:43Skunk ManJoke or not.

2:34:44David HutchinsonYeah, it's funny if it's not your grow. Jesus.

2:34:48Todd MccormickI mean, look, we need one of those drones to just sit on your desk so you can sniff for terpenes locally around you, never mind 50 feet in the air.

2:34:57KevinHow good is a device like that in Holland? I mean, they grow all types of flowers and probably spit out terpenes. I'm telling you.

2:35:04Skunk ManWhat they're doing is they're flying specifically over the house or warehouse or whatever where there has been a complaint.

2:35:13ToddHuh.

2:35:14Skunk ManYeah, I bet you the off-gassing. They're not just free scanning the entire population.

2:35:22Todd MccormickOh, not like here, huh?

2:35:24Skunk ManNot like here.

2:35:27Skunk ManThe Dutch, you know, they have this thing about the Nazis, you know, and they just try not to be a Nazi.

2:35:37Todd MccormickLook, look. You know, that's a rather good idea. The Swiss are Germans who live in the mountains, and the Dutch are Germans who live down by the ocean, you know.

2:35:47KevinThat's Google's new motto, don't be Nazi.

2:35:50BubblemanDon't be Nazi. Don't be Nazi. That's what Grandma used to say, don't be Nazi.

2:35:57Todd MccormickYeah, and she said, Nazis were not very fantastic.

2:36:03KevinDid those electronic noses actually work? I mean, I've seen a few people pimping the electronic nose for cannabis detection.

2:36:11Skunk ManApparently, for some terpenes, they figured out a way to make it work.

2:36:17KevinWell, I know, but just because law enforcement is using it doesn't mean it works. It just means it can clock people.

2:36:23Todd MccormickNo, but I found a Kickstarter project where they have made a very small... Oh, come on.

2:36:32KevinAnd oh, come on.

2:36:33Todd MccormickIt uses a little blue light, and then it gets the light back. It's a spectrograph. It's a small spectrograph. And you can tune it in for whatever you like. Scotio is the name of it, S-O-C-I-O. And there's a lot of people that can use it to check how much water's in the leaves on the plant. You can stick it over a pill, and it'll tell you exactly what's in the pill.

2:36:55Todd MccormickSo it's a very, very cute little device.

2:36:57SpeakerSpectrometer, not a spectrograph.

2:37:00Todd MccormickYeah, spectrometer. It's a small spectrometer, handheld spectrometer. But it works like stink. And it can characterize your buds. It can characterize terpenes. I ordered it two years ago. It's a Kickstarter project. So needless to say, I haven't got it yet.

2:37:15BubblemanYou're talking about the MDX?

2:37:17Todd MccormickNo, not the NBA.

2:37:18SpeakerYeah, there's a bunch of them. But there's a bunch of them that are out there.

2:37:21BubblemanYeah, yeah.

2:37:22Todd MccormickNo, this one is made for pot. This was not made for pot. Okay. This was completely made as a lab field spectrograph that you could take out in the field and use that you could put in your pocket rather than carrying a lot of You know, but I mean, it's so accurate. You could stick it on a new pill and it'll tell you exactly what's in it.

2:37:43Todd MccormickI mean, you can stick it over a glass of water or a glass of whatever and it'll tell you what's in the glass.

2:37:50BubblemanI've yet to see one that works, but I'm super stoked to see one that comes out that actually works. I've never seen it yet. I've heard all of the Kickstarters. I've seen a few come out that are absolute swag and do not work.

2:38:01Todd MccormickI went to the San Francisco Electronic Show and they were there. And they had one and they gave it to you. You could play with it for 20, 30 minutes. And there was all kinds of stuff they had lined up. And you could bring your own stuff. And believe me, I brought some questionable pills along with me and stuck them on top of it. And the fucking thing was accurate.

2:38:20Todd MccormickI mean, it was like, it was amazingly accurate. You know, it blew my mind. I want one. Yeah, I mean.

2:38:27SpeakerThose were pills that had a single active ingredient dispersed in a single, like a starch matrix, right?

2:38:34Todd MccormickWell, no, a couple of these pills were very suspect about what was in them, and that's why I brought them along to see. And there was multi... It doesn't just find a pill that just has one thing in it, you know, and tell you, characterize that. It tells you everything that's in the pill. And then it can, if it can, if you've got it hooked up to your smartphone, which this has to be done, it goes to the big database that they have and identifies it.

2:39:06Todd MccormickIt sends a spectrograph to a major computer.

2:39:09BubblemanWhat's the company? Because that does sound very... S-C-O-I-R.

2:39:13SpeakerI mean, that sounds like something on Star Trek.

2:39:15Todd MccormickS-O-E-R. It's a near IR spectrometer.

2:39:21SpeakerJust like the Canalizer 420, just like Sage Analytics thing, just like the one that Mark's talking about.

2:39:27BubblemanMark, Mark, FaceTiming on an iPhone is right out of Star Trek, so we can acknowledge that certain things from Star Trek are now becoming a reality. Oh yeah, exactly. Mark, I would just like to know the name of the company, clearly.

2:39:42Todd MccormickS-T-O-I, it's an Israeli company, you know.

2:39:48BubblemanWell, hook me up with it and I'll just do my own research.

2:39:51Todd MccormickI'll send you the URL in a few minutes. As everyone will do their own research. I will send you their URL so you can go look yourself. And Mark, look, I went into a television store not long ago, or into a glasses store to buy a pair of glasses. And at the end of the thing, the guy said, that's $700. And I'm like, $700? And he said, what's wrong with that?

2:40:13Todd MccormickAnd I said, look, I went into a television store and bought a fucking TV that received signals from fucking outer space and recodes them back into pictures that I can watch here on Earth. And I only paid $400 for that.

2:40:28SpeakerOkay.

2:40:29Skunk ManPoint being, technology is... No, no, the difference was fashion. If you want to be fashionable, you got to pay the grand, dude.

2:40:38Todd MccormickYeah. Anyway, technology is like what's told a few hours ago by Kevin, is advancing every few months. I get it. I get it.

2:40:52SpeakerAgain, I'm a chemist who understands how matter interacts with energy. And again, I understand the whole concept of using a spectrometer.

2:41:00Todd MccormickGo to the site, S-C-O-I-O.

2:41:03SpeakerI will. I won't spend valuable time here on church doing it.

2:41:06Todd MccormickI just put two links.

2:41:07David HutchinsonI put two links in the chat.

2:41:09SpeakerYeah, I'll go check it out.

2:41:10Todd MccormickIt's a very handy thing for hash church people and people who are doing pot. It's a wonderful little device. Trust me. Bring it full circle, Kevin.

2:41:20KevinWell, the fashion industry is actually one industry that operates without IP. Just throw it out there.

2:41:28SpeakerHey, I'm going to sign off here because I came down to go to this cup and I missed the first day. What's the cup? It's some Los Angeles cup that High Times is doing. Future Cannabis Cup. It's a concentrate-only cup.

2:41:46BubblemanWell, go have fun at the concentrate-only cup. Tony, we do appreciate you coming in and sharing your time with us. Yeah, I got to step up too.

2:41:54David HutchinsonI'm also going to say ciao.

2:41:56SpeakerWhere's it at, Tony? It's in Los Angeles. Well, it's in San Bernardino.

2:42:01ToddLos Angeles is our pit.

2:42:03SpeakerIt's our pit. Yeah, it's a little bit too far, but, um, you know, I did a little, we did, uh, we did a, we did a little bubble man collaboration with, uh, with, um, CHR, like the LA Cush CHR guys down here. And we did a collab, we did some collaborations with Gold Drop. So, should be interesting.

2:42:30Todd MccormickWish I could have made it, but, um, If it's further than 300 miles away these days, I just read about it or watch it.

2:42:39SpeakerWell, what about the Emerald Cup? That's coming up.

2:42:41Todd MccormickYeah, I was thinking about going to it. You know, a lot of these cups hold these discussion panels, and I've listened to a lot of them. And it's kind of disparaging to hear some of the bad information that they're handing out about extractions and how to work it. But I don't... You know, I'm torn between the devil and the deep blue sea because I'm afraid if I go there and pass out too much information, I'll be sabotaging myself.

2:43:10Todd MccormickBut I do like to go to those things, and I do think I'm going to go to the Emerald Cup. I have a problem standing up long periods of time, but I'm going to do it anyway. I always sit down.

2:43:24SpeakerBring an extra chair. Yeah, I will.

2:43:29BubblemanWe'll get you the VIP treatment, Indra.

2:43:34Todd MccormickAll right. I'm not sure what to say about that, but thanks.

2:43:41BubblemanWell, we'll just get you treated properly while you're there.

2:43:45Todd MccormickOh, I thought maybe a nice wheelchair or something.

2:43:49Skunk ManMarcus won't be there because he can't go to California yet.

2:43:54BubblemanUnless I am there. Unless I do go to California.

2:43:58SpeakerYou might. We'll see. We'll see.

2:44:01Skunk ManMaybe you can take one of those Uber drones.

2:44:05SpeakerHow about an ultralight? Well, I'm going to take an Uber drone out of here because it's like almost one o'clock and I'm I got to get there.

2:44:14BubblemanAnd it's Thanksgiving. I think I'm going to take my drone, which I brought over to my friend's house, and just fly it around his neighborhood and just have fun because we're going to have a nice meal later on. I do want to thank Kevin McKernan for coming in and opening the wonderful dialogue of conversation that he always does. Chimera, it was a pleasure. Sorry that we didn't get to say goodbye to you, that you had to leave already.

2:44:35BubblemanBut Mark Scaldone, Indra, Skunkman Samt.

2:44:47KevinOh.

2:44:50KevinAh, we don't need him anyway. Let's just go on. Did he freeze? I think he did, yeah. He didn't freeze. Oh, my God. He ended it.