Veterans and Cannabis: Healing PTSD and Building Community

0:01BubblemanGood morning everyone and welcome to Hash Church episode 83. I hope that you're all doing wonderful out there in, I guess, in Bubble Man's world because here we are in Bubble Man's world. 83 weeks of Hash Church slowed down a little bit in the last couple of weeks but still we've got our conversation going. I'm just waiting for the stream to start up in the YouTube chat so I can mute my mic and then I'll move forward into inviting the panelists in.

0:31BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

0:59BubblemanInvitation. I'll send this Skype invitation to Chimera. And I think that's it. There we go. 288 people already watching. I got my HQ shirt on today. I want to give a shout out to David, the boys at HQ Hemp Quarters in Barcelona, Spain. Never stop growing. I think I will. And there's Etienne with his 90 micron shirt. These two shirts go very well together. In fact, we are the inverted versions of one another today.

1:32SpeakerEverything is black and white apparently.

1:34BubblemanEverything is black and white. 375 people in the room after one minute. That's fucking awesome.

1:41SpeakerHell yeah. So, latest news, nothing happened at the UN, unfortunately. It looks like a whole bunch of people did a whole bunch of talking and they didn't do a whole bunch of listening so far that I've heard, so. Yeah, Jamaica certainly laid it down. Yeah, Jamaica did. I'm hearing Canada did the same, but Jamaica really laid it down more so than anyone else, which mad kudos and hopefully something happens along that line, but looks like more of the same people, I'm sorry.

2:11BubblemanHi, Sam. Good morning, welcome, welcome. Yeah, we're just talking about the UN and what went down over there. We had strong voices coming out of Canada and Jamaica, but obviously those guys aren't going to be jumping up and changing the treaty act anytime soon. But in the meantime, it seems like we have enough little sort of Abilities within the bill or whatever you want to call it, the treaty, that we're still able to grow hemp, we're still able to do this medical cannabis thing, but it's still got our hands tied in ways that are making things a lot more difficult than they need to be, I would say.

2:55SpeakerSadly, without a doubt, more of the same, so, and we drive on. Nothing's really changed. How's it going up there with Canada? Any news on Dana Larson's situation?

3:06BubblemanDana Larson's good to go. I mean, he got out that day. He never stops. I think he's on his way to Australia right now, so he's totally able to still travel and leave the country. I doubt that he'll get any negative outcome of his, you know, Charges, especially the judges or the prosecutor wanting to go for a mandatory minimum, I think that was just a thing to say for a little bit of a blog on a paper.

3:31BubblemanBut yeah, he came back from all of it and helped organize one of our most successful 420 gatherings ever. You know, there was people saying it was 25,000. Some people said it was 50,000. Some people said it was 100,000. It was a lot of people. I want to really take a quick second to welcome Wood Thrush into the room. Good morning. Yes, Wood Thrush.

3:56Wood ThrushGo by Woody if that's easier for you guys.

4:01BubblemanI like the name Wood Thrush, but I can call you Woody, whatever you're comfortable with, bro. It's your show, so it's up to you. Well, it's our show. I really never think of it as my show. I think of it as our show. So let me just find out this little piece of information that Todd had sent me. I'm finding out where he sent it to me now.

4:24BubblemanI wanted to kind of give you a little introduction.

4:29BubblemanGive me just a quick second to go through here and find that little piece of paper that I need so I can read a little bit of an intro for you.

4:37SpeakerAll right, here we go. Just open it would be great.

4:45SpeakerGood morning, John.

4:49BubblemanHey, good morning, Johnny B.

4:52BubblemanAll right, so here we go. I'm going to read your little bio that I got sent. So Wood Thrush, Woody Needler. Served with distinction as part of the A-138 at Camp Stanley, Korea during the attacks of New York September 11, 2001. In 2003 he was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 14th Field Artillery Regiment, This was the first of his combat tours and two more would follow. In 2006, Sergeant Kneedler deployed with 2nd Battalion, 12th Cavalry Regiment, 4th BDE, 1st Cavalry, Thunder Horse.

5:31BubblemanHis 3rd combat tour was with the 1st Battalion, 77th Armored Regiment, 4th BDE, 1st Armored Division, Steel Tigers in 2009. After three combat tours, Woody was suffering from the effects of PTSD. VA doctors prescribed several different prescription medications to help him cope with the symptoms of PTSD. And not only did these prescription drugs do nothing to help Woody with his condition, they actually made him worse. These drugs combined with alcohol too often had Woody considered easing his pain with a bullet.

6:02BubblemanWoody credits a Vietnam veteran who was a close friend with saving his life by driving him to the hospital. After that short stay, Woody made the courageous decision to take control of his medical treatment end of his life by replacing the pills and the alcohol with cannabis. Woody is currently furthering his education by attending Lynn Benton Community College in pursuit of a degree in horticulture from Oregon State University.

6:24BubblemanWoody is passionate about growing in all aspects of his life and helping his fellow veterans find their own path to healing.

6:32BubblemanHas what is easily the coolest name of any Grow4Vets team member and we are proud to have him lead the Grow4Vets Eugene chapter. Awesome, dude. Well, welcome. It was, you know, we spoke briefly some months ago and it was Todd McCormick who hit me up again the other day. I guess you guys had been speaking and I'm glad that he did because we're able to get you in and share your story with us, man.

6:56Wood ThrushAwesome. Thank you guys so much. Yeah, I moved to Oregon in June and it has changed my life. The people that I've met here are the most amazing people in the world. Kind and generous for no reason.

7:15Wood ThrushYeah, I'm just blessed. Cannabis has blessed my life in more ways than I can count. And honestly, Boba, man, I have to thank you because around the time that my friend took me to the hospital, I was watching your... Bubble Man videos on making dry sift and everything else, so I do have to credit you partially in getting me through all of this because if it wasn't for those videos, those dark days would not have been nearly as...

7:43Wood ThrushThank you so much for joining us.

8:05BubblemanPatient stories are always the best. They're the most powerful. A lot of people relate to them that are going through similar things. So I thank you for having the strength to come on our show and share your story. So where did you move from when you moved to Oregon?

8:22Wood ThrushSo I'll give you a little background. I got out of the Army in 2010 at Fort Bliss, Texas. Moved shortly after that to Georgia. I was dual military at the time. That relationship dissolved, so I ended up moving back to Kentucky. Kentucky is where my family and close friends still live, so it was easy for me to go home when I wasn't feeling very good. So I have to credit my family and my friends as well because if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be here today.

8:55Wood ThrushSo Kentucky, moved to Colorado for six months, moved to Eugene in June, and I plan on staying in Oregon for a while. It's a really nice place to be.

9:09BubblemanYeah, it sounds like you've found a really great spot with some incredible people that are willing to go out of their way and really help you out. Can you tell us a little bit about the Grow for Vets?

9:19Wood ThrushYes. The mission of Grow for Vets is to help stop the veteran suicides because the number that's publicized is 22. The number I see most days is 22 vets a day are committing suicides. I think that number is way, way higher than that. So my mission is to give them an alternative, and cannabis, in my mind, is the alternative to the pills and the alcohol. I've been thinking about this lately, and the Army teaches the bottle effect.

9:52Wood ThrushYou bottle up your emotions, they give you a bottle of pills to make you forget that you have emotions, and then they tell you, oh, the only... The only substance you're allowed to use is alcohol. Well, alcohol combined with those pills, combined with depression and PTSD and TBI ends in suicide. We have to start talking about it. Vets need to get together and talk because until they do, the suicide rate's not going to change.

10:25BubblemanIt's one of the most incredible things to me as a Canadian. What I've always known about America is, from a Canadian standpoint, the generalization of America, is that you guys are patriotic and that you don't fuck around when it comes to your military and this whole valor thing and the respect that people have for soldiers going over and fighting for their freedom. It seems to be completely fucking lost when you come back.

10:50BubblemanOh, definitely.

10:51Wood ThrushIt's insane. There's absolutely nothing for us when we get back.

10:55SpeakerI don't want to say I sound rude about this at all. You know, I'm very anti-military industrial complex, to say the least. But I'm very pro my neighbors, my friends, my brothers, my best friend is obviously a vet. But I think no one gets shafted the worst when they go and they think that they're serving their country and they're benefiting us all and they come home and there's no support.

11:16SpeakerThere's no mental support, there's no physical support, there's no moral support. And it's so screwed. I mean, I'm really glad that you are embracing cannabis and trying to build that bridge between you and your fellow service members because I think it is extremely helpful for all of us emotionally. And what you go through, regardless of where you go, you know, when you come back, there's obviously emotional scars there that you're left to deal with alone.

11:44SpeakerYou know, and to think that you've found something, you know, this benign herb that doesn't hurt anybody that can help you guys through depression, through PTSD, through chronic pain, you know, just through even socializing. You know, there's something very therapeutic about sitting down with ATN and us just sharing a joint. You know, I'm talking, you know, and to think that you guys found this kind of communal tool is the real reason I wanted you to, you know, come on today and talk and, you know, bringing us all together is I think what cannabis does best.

12:16SpeakerAnd I'm really glad that you're discovering this and that you're bringing this to people that are in the military because, you know, I find it ironic, and I'll say it out loud, that We think we're the freest country. We think we're fighting for freedom. Yet you can't come home and plant cannabis in your front yard without the United States government and the police and everyone coming and stealing everything you've ever owned.

12:38SpeakerYou know, so to me, we don't have any freedom in this country. We just got community and we got to start acting like it and supporting each other.

12:45BubblemanWell, you called it thought because a country that would send its youth away to war to fight for the freedom, and then when they come back to do nothing but, I mean, I've said it before, it seems like the ultimate case of stolen valor. Forget about pretending to be a soldier and trying to get a free coffee. How about a government that ignores its soldiers and creates an agenda that produces suicides at the rates of 22 to 30 a day?

13:12BubblemanThat is astronomically insane.

13:16SpeakerWell, I feel there's two sides of this, too. I think the military-industrial conflict sets us all up so that we don't have access to education, because if we did have access to education, I don't think a lot of people would want to grab arms and go kick in the doors of Iraqi citizens that never invaded them. And on the flip of that, you know, I think they utilize the fact that we're undereducated and we don't have economic opportunities like we should have in America, and that's a large reason why people join the military, you know.

13:42SpeakerAnd then when they go through it, they realize that they got a bad contract. You know, the United States government expects you to follow your contracts to the letter of the law, but they'll redeploy you, they'll shit all over you, they'll make you sick, they'll bring you home, they won't take care of you. I mean, this is really, to me, this is a problem that I see with the American military.

14:02SpeakerIt's not what the guys are trying to achieve, it's the way they're treated. And not only that, it's how we treat each other. I don't know how your reaction was. I'm also a red leg there, Woody. I'm artillery as well. I was in the first Gulf War. And my reaction when I went to the VA and told them about my medical use was for them to say, you're a known drug user, you get no benefits, we can't talk to your counseling, get out.

14:32SpeakerAnd I say no, and then they physically removed me from four different VA facilities just for mentioning my cannabis use. So my question from a different generation is how did the VA react to you discussing medical cannabis?

14:47Wood ThrushWell, they didn't kick me out and they didn't take any of the pills that they had me on away. But my doc, I didn't mention it. I mentioned the use before, but I didn't mention it really to Dr. Bergen because I knew, just like you said, Those were my preconceived notions that as soon as I say anything about cannabis use, they're going to label me as a drug addict and kick me out.

15:14Wood ThrushThey didn't do that, but what did happen was when I went to the doctor and I was like, I use this to treat my symptoms, he wrote in my record recreational, habitual recreational use or something like that, which makes me a drug addict because it was his personal view. It had nothing to do with the fact that It was cannabis. Well, it does have everything to do with its cannabis.

15:38SpeakerYou know, Woody, I like to call it bureaucratic bigotry.

15:41Wood ThrushI don't like it, so I'm not going to let you have it. Right.

15:44SpeakerI like to call it bureaucratic bigotry because that's what we're dealing with. Yes. Bureaucratic bigotry. And you know what really sucks is the people being bigots towards us are just a bunch of pharmaceutical pill jockeys anyway. Yep.

15:58Wood ThrushWell, the VA in a whole is a pill jockey now because they're not treating anything. They're not talking to us. They're not trying to get us to talk because they want us sedated. They want us out of the limelight. They want us not making us stink. They want us to just disappear. And if 22 of us kill ourselves every day, they're probably fine with that.

16:21BubblemanYeah, I mean that's definitely the path to disappearing right there. The only thing I would add to this aspect of the conversation is I'm not exactly sure exactly, you know, I guess they're doctors that you're talking about, the VA doctors, and doctors have... They have been put into a situation where they've, you know, the schooling for doctors is the biggest, you know, the amount of years they have to go to school and the things they have to remember and the studying and the testing.

16:48BubblemanThey build it up to be such an incredible, huge part of your life and they give you this license and then now that license to practice medicine is Thank you for joining us.

17:16BubblemanAnd once again, she said, well, but we could never say that. And she's being honest in the sense because if she says that, she will have her license taken away and she will no longer be able to practice medicine. So they've kind of got them by the ball, so to speak.

17:30SpeakerNo, and honestly, you know, they take an oath, you know, and they really violate it almost instantly, in my humble opinion. I mean... I think if you don't lose your right to free speech when you become a doctor, you maybe lose your right to free speech if you're going to want those pharmaceutical perks and pats on the back that you're going to get. Because if you go out and start speaking any blasphemy, they're going to cut you off like your cancer.

17:53SpeakerYou have to also understand that the VA, you know, 80% of the doctors go through the VA. And for the simple fact that they have immediate residency. And once you're in, it's just government pill-pushing system as our brother here has found out way too well and as many other veterans find out every single day, is that they're subject to their own system. So even they could be a free-thinking doctor all they want, but when they're in that VA system, they're told what they're going to do.

18:24SpeakerI was lied to and was told finally in 95, I was finally told by a brave new doctor that the VA had been lying to us about our exposure in the Gulf and what we were actually exposed to. And then four years later, I get a seven-page dossier of everything that we were exposed to. And that VA doctor told me himself that it came from higher up, that we're not supposed to talk about your Gulf War experience.

18:51SpeakerStuff and that we're supposed to ignore you and just pop you and send you on your way. So that's been standard operational procedure for me since 91. So it's been frustrating to see all these other vets and I have to give a major shout out to all our Vietnam brothers because for me it was a Vietnam brother who reached out to me and said, hey kid, it's going to be okay.

19:13SpeakerI was on that pill junkie thing too. You know, stay on this course with Herb and I'm thankful that, Woody, that you had a brave brother who took you to the hospital and took care of you. And remember that they taught us to fight. They never taught us to stop fighting, but they also taught us to never stop taking care of each other. And so much respect, Woody, for putting your money where your mouth is and helping your fellow brothers out.

19:38BubblemanAnd on top of that, Woody, I'd like to say much respect for coming on Hash Church for the first time and muting your mic when you took your bong rip with the torch. I got dudes that have been on here for 80 weeks that can't get that shit right, and you're like been on one day and you already got it right, so two thumbs up.

19:55Wood ThrushI've been watching Hash Church since episode one. I watched every episode and I haven't watched it every Sunday, but Brother, what you're doing takes what I'm doing to a whole new level, so thank you for what you're doing. And in response to what Etienne said, the vet that took me to the hospital was a Vietnam vet as well, so yes, the Vietnam-era veterans, they know the truth, and they will help us.

20:23Wood ThrushAnd we have to remember as a younger generation that we've got to help them as well, because they're going to start getting older, And they're going to need the younger guys coming and checking on them to make sure they're still okay. Because the big thing for me was when I was on the pills, I thought I was fine. I would tell Bill, Bill, I'm fine. There's nothing wrong with me.

20:46Wood ThrushAnd he's like, no, you're not fine. And he would take me to the side and he would get me intoxicated on alcohol and then it would come out. All the pain and the suffering would come out when I was drunk because Alcohol is a truth serum. So it took a while for me to realize that the pills and the alcohol were the problem. And once I got rid of all the pills and the alcohol, I lost weight.

21:13Wood ThrushI started eating better. I just felt better on a regular basis.

21:19BubblemanHey Woody, can you go into detail a little bit about how that experience happened to you? Like how do you get to the bottom of the bottom of the bottom where you're thinking about suicide and life is just terrible and you're on all these pills and your booze? I mean I know you mentioned your buddy cracked a little bit of light on you and you were able to release your truths, but how do you make that transformation from like leaving that behind and going with cannabis?

21:45BubblemanHow did that happen for you?

21:48Wood ThrushI've known about what cannabis was since about 1986. I didn't know it was medicinal because the DARE program said that it fried my brain like an egg. So for years I was like, well, it can't be good for me, so I can't do it all the time. And then I got out of the Army and realized that the pills were the problem, and it's hard to describe.

22:20Wood ThrushI was, with the pills and the alcohol combined, I was just super depressed all the time and thinking about killing myself. After the stay in the hospital, I was assaulted while I was at the VA and that's when I decided that the VA was the problem. So I decided to get everything the VA was giving me out of it.

22:44SpeakerGo back a second. What happened at the VA? Who assaulted you?

22:47Wood ThrushAnother patient. On meds? The security tried to blame me, said that I instigated it, and that was the last I heard about it.

23:01SpeakerSo were you written up and removed, or what?

23:03Wood ThrushNo, they let me stay. They separated us, but they didn't detain either of us in any way. They just put us in separate rooms. I will never go back to the psychiatric unit at any VA hospital. I now have severe anxiety. Even going into a VA building, I have triggers. So, yeah, the VA to me is an evil, evil thing.

23:35SpeakerSo what date and what year did you hit your rock bottom?

23:39Wood ThrushIt was June two years ago. So June of 2014. Take us there.

23:48Wood ThrushOkay, my buddy invited me to go to Florida with him because I wasn't, obviously I wasn't doing very well. And on that trip I got way too drunk, did some things that looking back on it I wouldn't have done if I wasn't intoxicated, drove way too fast, and had a gun that I emptied a magazine into the ocean instead of my head. So... When I woke up the next day, I realized that I really had a problem because those bullets could have very easily ended up in me instead of water.

24:25Wood ThrushSo there was something subconsciously kept me from doing that. And I don't know what it was, but that was the bottom, and that's when I realized that I had to change my life. And were you using cannabis at the time? Yes, yes.

24:41BubblemanNo, maybe that little bit of cannabis in there was the guiding light saying, hey man, it does seem to have this incredible effect on people where it's like a positive energy that is given to you when you have that first little rip of a joint or a dab or however you're enjoying your cannabis. There is this really, you know, they call it elevated or uplifted for a reason because it really does kind of take you up a little bit.

25:08Wood ThrushDefinitely. And one of the things I have to say is Growing the plants themselves, I found some seeds in a bag that I'd gotten from a buddy and I put those seeds in some dirt in a closet with some CFL light bulbs and got smokable flour. And it's what I had to do at the time because in southern Kentucky, $60 grams and it's stuff that you wouldn't even consider taking now that I live in Oregon where I can get beautiful outdoor sun-grown flowers for $3 to $5.

25:48SpeakerIn Kentucky, did you have to just get it off the market retail from whoever and however?

25:53Wood ThrushOh yeah, straight up, call on your buddy for a dime bag.

25:59SpeakerYeah, I got frustrated and tired of making criminals out of my friends. So I got involved because I was like, God damn it, why should I have to... Make my friends risk their freedom just so I can have my fucking medicine just to get by. I mean, that was, I think, one of the most frustrating, and it was pretty low, but at least they were there, and fortunately, it was there for you as well.

26:22Wood ThrushDefinitely. Yeah, I credit you guys and cannabis and my dog, Angel. If you look on my Facebook, you'll see pictures of her, and the Animals, cannabis, and a good diet are the keys to a healthy life.

26:42BubblemanNice. Right there. Health and happiness and a good little bit of euphoria.

26:47Wood ThrushAnd cannabis to take away the pain.

26:50SpeakerYeah. Beautiful. And music. Life can be boring without music, okay?

26:54TonyOh, definitely.

26:55SpeakerDare I say this, I think cannabis does more than take away the pain. I think it balances us. When we're feeling all this, as a kid I started studying martial arts and it's really a pursuit of balance between your mind, your body, and your spirit. I think cannabis is a phenomenal tool when it comes to bringing these three into a really wonderful alignment.

27:17BubblemanIt seems to allow energy to flow, blocked energy that would otherwise be stuck as an emotional cyst. I think it's one of the reasons why it's so profound for PTSD is because it's able to get into these traumatic memories and release them from their emotional traumas that they're being held in. It doesn't release them all, but I've definitely heard some incredible stories of people Really, really changing the way their memory works with particularly, you know, very harsh memories.

27:47SpeakerWell, there's been some really powerful science talking about the way that cannabis helps us forget traumatic events, you know, and I think part of maybe why I've had such an easy time, you know, moving on from devastating events in my life is because, you know, I just kind of embraced cannabis, looked for the good in the, you know, the silver in the dark cloud and moved on.

28:10SpeakerCannabis has helped me. As I'm sitting here listening and as you were talking, I started really going back to when I got injured and what happened to me and then I just wanted to know more about the Compensation Act and then I started Googling the Federal Employees Compensation Act through the Army and stuff like that. It's really the same kind of thing they do to people being seriously injured because you were at work, you were seriously injured at work and I'm seeing a lot of similarities to what I was going through and what you were talking about.

28:39SpeakerAnd just all those types of pushing the pharmaceutical drugs and denying and stuff like that. And after looking at it, I can see that it's all the same system all around the world. It's just something that they do to people. And it's good on you, man. I had to do the same thing for myself and grab it and do the same thing. But I just wanted to ask that question.

28:56SpeakerBut then I started Googling it, and I can see that there's a lot of similarities on how they treat people of being seriously injured. And that's what happens. You're seriously injured at work, and it's You know, push the pharmaceutical drugs and try and make it go away.

29:11Wood ThrushDefinitely. Another thing that I've noticed is that the way we, I'm going to say we as a society, treat disabled people is disgusting. Not just physically. It is disgusting. They want the law for like my dog. I want her to be a service dog. The law protects that. But they just want me to disappear. Like, I don't know how to say it.

29:45SpeakerLike this, you know what I think they don't want in a fucked up way to be really honest. They don't want you to come home and continue to be a fucking soldier. They don't want you to come home and pursue truth and teach other people the fucking way through the path of darkness. And you know what, and this is what they keep you guys kind of unhealthy for and sick for because, you know, there was a weird, Michael Moore did a movie called Sicko and it was about the people that have healthcare in America.

30:09SpeakerAnd he was interviewing the French health minister and he asked if he ever thought that we would have socialized medicine like France does. And his answer was astounding. He says, no, because 300 million people would be very difficult to control if they were all healthy.

30:27SpeakerJesus. And you know what? I think a lot of times comes this. A lot of the greatest peace activists I've ever met have been former servicemen because they know better than anybody What it looks like, and they don't want to see it. And anyone with a consciousness, anybody with a human heart, anyone with a sense of compassion and empathy doesn't think war is a good idea. You know, all that bravado and shit they show on TV is fucking video game bullshit.

30:53SpeakerBecause when you get there, it's real humans really hurting. Really going through a fucking wave of crap emotions. And, you know, they bring you home and I think they disempower you because if you can continue to put that message out there like ATN and others I know have, me and ATN used to go college to college to college and I used to hear his anger college to college to college every time I could get up there and start yelling.

31:15SpeakerAnd, you know what, I really think that that's why they really don't empower you guys because if you all came back saying we got to rethink this, It'd be game over for them.

31:29Wood ThrushNotice there aren't any ex-military running for president. I don't want to talk about politics, I'm just saying. No doubt.

31:39SpeakerWell, us that have served have a deal of humility and don't have that egomaniacal desire. If anything, as I said earlier, they taught us how to fight, but they never taught us to stop. And I totally agree with Todd. They'd rather keep us completely medicated and sedated and zombified. And as you said earlier, they'd rather not see you. They'd rather keep you medicated so that you didn't come to the VA. And if you show up at the VA, what do they do?

32:05SpeakerThey're like, oh, let's refill that prescription stat so you can get on your way and get medicated. My uncle literally disappeared from a VA facility in 1981, never to be seen or heard from again. He was paranoid schizophrenic and was put on these pills and was in a nursing home in New Orleans. And he was so medicated. The last time I remember seeing him, he was talking to Ronald Reagan in the air conditioner.

32:33SpeakerJust standing there talking to him. And everyone in this VA nursing home didn't bat a fucking eye. Everybody was doing all their own crazy shit. And they just kept them hidden away so that society doesn't see them, so that we won't feel sorry for these people, but more than anything so that they don't help these people. And like I lost my uncle. He walked away to never be seen or heard from again.

32:59SpeakerI don't know what happened as far as we know. I'm not kidding. He was probably eaten by an alligator on his way to our house because where we lived in New Orleans. There was swamps in between where he was and I was. But regardless, VA lost my uncle. So I learned early on to not have any trust for the VA. And then after my war, thinking, oh, I need help.

33:22SpeakerI really need help. And then to show up and then get thrown out and get no help at all whatsoever. I mean, I was fortunate to have cannabis and good friends and good vets along the way to steer me along the way. Because I'm not going to lie, I thought about suicide, you know, what's the point of being around if nobody gives a shit about, you know, why you're there.

33:40SpeakerBut again, I credit Vietnam vets and other veterans for reaching out and always reach out for your brothers and sisters because You know, they may not look like they're suffering, but god damn, I didn't think I was suffering either. I like you. I was happily medicated on my pills thinking I was completely fine and okay. And then I'd see myself from my own actions actually seeing what I was doing going, who the fuck is this person and what the fuck am I doing?

34:07SpeakerFortunately, cannabis gives you that perspective. And being away from the VA definitely did.

34:12Wood ThrushOh yeah. I wish I'd had a GoPro strapped to my chest for the last five years. Those will be some pretty interesting videos.

34:21SpeakerHoly shit, eh? I wonder if you'd really want to watch them. I was just about to say this, dude. Cannabis helps you forget. You might want to erase those tapes and cruise on.

34:34SpeakerRight. I erased a lot of the tapes that were my childhood trauma. It was how I got through cancer ten times. It's like You've got to turn the trauma into fertilizer and let it benefit you rather than let it take you down and pull you apart. And I feel like as a gardener I've learned that the bigger pile of shit I have, the more fertilizer I can make, the more flowers I can grow.

34:58SpeakerSo I don't worry when life throws shit at me. I just turn it into something positive.

35:04BubblemanDefinitely. Hey, how did you end up finding these Grow for Vets group? You want to tell us a little bit about them?

35:11Wood ThrushYes. I first heard about Grow for Vets when I was in Denver, and I was having a rough time, just hard to find a job and that stuff. So I didn't really get involved until I got to Oregon. I met some people who run a medicinal farm, And they got invited to support Grow4Vets. Well, I was volunteering with them at the time, and they took me to the Grow4Vets event in Albany, and I started talking with the chapter president for Albany and was like, I'm really interested in this because I want to help other people figure it out like I did.

35:55Wood ThrushSo I reached out to the national chapter president, Roger Martin and we started a conversation and that led to the Eugene chapter getting started. We've had two events and they're getting better. It seems like we're getting more members at the events. The thing we need is support. We need support from producers and growers and people in the area. We would love to have a chapter in every legal state.

36:28Wood ThrushRight now, we have a... How do they get hold of you?

36:31SpeakerThey need to know how to get hold of you. People are watching, wondering, okay, you need help, how do I help you?

36:36Wood ThrushWoody at growforvets.org, www.growforvets.org. The website is big and kind of confusing, so take your time. We do have new web developers at the national level who are supposed to make that more user-friendly, but... I'm not exactly sure when that will happen, but hopefully.

36:58BubblemanWho would people contact if they were kind of like yourself, interested in getting a chapter started in their state, wanting to do what you're doing, part of coming back from war and suffering from PTSD and wanting to do the exact same thing? Who would they go about getting in touch with for that sort of thing?

37:16Wood ThrushRoger Martin, and it's roger at growforvets.org. Send him an email. Introduce yourself. Let them know where you're from and start a conversation that way. Or come to a, find a local chapter that's already established. Start going to those meetings and get to know the people involved. Word of mouth to me seems like the best way to spread cannabis knowledge. Absolutely.

37:47BubblemanWe're doing it right now. We've got 919 or 920 people watching live right now and

37:53BubblemanI'm sure another 9 to 10,000 that will watch this over the course of the next week, so it's good to have those email addresses and websites available to them.

38:03SpeakerYou know, one of the things Woody and I were talking about is the CBD being very anti-depressive and this being something that is actually really beneficial to people coming back dealing with emotional problems rather than getting sucked up into a lot of SSRIs and pharmaceutical solutions that are more like pharmaceutical nightmares than they are solutions. So I was wondering, you know, Woody, kind of split for a sec, but I was wondering, you know, how much, you know, growth for vets was embraced in CBD and If it was helping.

38:33SpeakerDid you hear that, Woody?

38:38SpeakerThe last part was just I was wondering how much CBD has been helping you guys in Grow for Vets and if it's a topic of conversation.

38:46Wood ThrushMy personal opinion, CBD is part of the whole plant. I don't believe CBD alone does anything more than THC alone does. So personally, I want a full spectrum. I would take a thousand different phenotypes, grind them all up together, and that would be my personal preference.

39:10SpeakerNo doubt, you know though, but when we're smoking most weed, we're not getting very much CBD because most of the plants that we grow for, you know, whatever, medical, recreational, THC, the CBD is usually not in it so much because it's kind of a blocker. So if you guys were going to start experimenting with CBD plants, it's still a whole plant, it's just that the other cannabinoids are in lower percentages and the CBD is more prominent.

39:35SpeakerI say it to you like this because I started to experiment with CBDs now that I have them available to me and I know what they are in the way that before I do meetings, before I do hash charts, maybe I'll dab some now, I find that it does kind of maybe block the THC and clear my head. I see them like vitamins. They're all in the same vitamin box, but vitamin E, D, C, they all do slightly different things.

40:03SpeakerIt's just something I think may be useful because when we're talking about depression and PTSD and such, it seems that that cannabinoid in particular has been helping people in clinical research that I've read. I mean, you guys all saw the antidepressant CBD information that just hit a couple weeks back, right? And they were comparing it to SSRIs, saying the SSRIs take sometimes three to four weeks to work.

40:28SpeakerYou've got to keep taking them for them to build up, for them to elevate your mood, but CBD works almost instantly.

40:36Wood ThrushI personally haven't had access to material to do that kind of experiment for myself, but

40:44SpeakerYou know, I think that that's what ProVets could do is try to work with local dispensaries or, you know, outlets or whatever because now that, you know, there are places that are testing and bridging the gap of knowledge, it's almost now like bringing the people. You know, back in 97, my goal when I was working on my book, How to Grow Medical Marijuana Initially, Thank you so much for joining us.

41:28SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

41:56SpeakerYou know, Cultivar is somewhere that really kind of is a very good tool for people that are going through and purging negative memories and trying to get back on the track of positivity.

42:09Wood ThrushDefinitely. I'm not going to say that it cured my PTSD, but I used a large dose, whole plant extract, the I don't know what they call it, the 60 grams in 60 days. And I definitely feel different now after doing that. And I don't know if it was just the large amount of cannabinoids that were in my system all the time. I don't know. It did something because I definitely feel different now than I did before.

42:50Wood ThrushLast year I wouldn't be able to Beyond this show and talk to you guys, I couldn't go out in public. And I think that was one of the reasons why Denver was so bad for me is because there were so many people there and it was so busy and so loud and so fast all the time. I never had time to slow down and calm down and actually get past being triggered.

43:13Wood ThrushAfter I used the full plant extract, it slowed me down. Physically, mentally, everything. It slowed me down. And then something that would trigger me was now an annoyance instead of, oh, my God, I've got to go home and turn the lights off for the next six hours.

43:36SpeakerYeah.

43:37Wood ThrushThat's incredible.

43:39Bubbleman60 grams in 60 days. That's quite the challenge.

43:44Wood ThrushUse half-gram suppositories to a day.

43:47BubblemanWow.

43:51BubblemanI was going to say that would definitely, I'll tell you, I eat it every day myself in coconut oil extract, but I just eat small doses, a little bit in the morning, a little bit at night. I never really feel the effects. I prefer to feel the effects from vaporizing.

44:08Wood ThrushDefinitely.

44:12BubblemanHey, welcome D420K. How's it going?

44:16BubblemanIt's going good, man. Woody's just been sharing his story with us. It's been a great morning, like almost a solid hour. We just literally started at 9.01, and it's been a great conversation.

44:29SpeakerI've caught some of it, and what I've caught of it is it's helped him with his PTSD. Is that the case?

44:39BubblemanYeah, I would say that's definitely the case.

44:41SpeakerThat's really good. I know... We all have friends that suffer anxieties and panic attacks and stuff. Myself, I get them too. And I go through them as well. And when they're happening for me, I'm fortunate enough that I don't get them from the severities of war and battle and some very, very serious stuff that goes on. I just, you know, just people with normal life problems that go through life and don't deal with things end up having these problems.

45:10SpeakerAnd it affects their whole life, like, greatly. And I know that the THC, eating the coconut oils, getting high and stuff like that, you know, just recreational using it, as well as, you know, for medicating, it's helped me greatly through my stuff. I don't have to take, you know, there's Paxil, there's Zoloft, there's all kinds of Pills that you can get for chemical imbalances that they tell you you have it in your brain and this will help it, this will help it, but yet you take these things and you can't even fucking get a boner or have a proper shit or any of this sort of stuff and then you got those problems you're dealing with and it's a simple thing and marijuana, another too good to be true fucking thing that's happened yet again.

45:53SpeakerI love this shit. We saw what kind of a person you were in that Mark Wahlberg movie. Marijuana's really changed you, dude. That's right. Yeah, that's funny.

46:08BubblemanYeah, I'm much nicer now. Hey, let's hear it there, D. Bong rip, everybody. Oh, Woody's on it. Woody's like ahead of the game.

46:21SpeakerHe's like, yeah, I'm not waiting. Hitting that shit right away.

46:26BubblemanWell, it's good that there's, you know, it's always a good thing to share hope and to, I don't, I think it's one of the reasons why I get a little upset with the doctors when they're like, well, we can't really, we need more data. I heard this quite a few times where it's like, well, yeah, they ate this cannabis and they, you know, no longer suffer from this particular disease, but we need more data.

46:47BubblemanAnd I asked a doctor in Toronto, I said, well, Why is it that when it's a small little kid and they're suffering from seizures and they've had 52 different types of experimental medications and they've never walked or spoken and then they get a drop of oil and they speak and they walk and they get off of their drugs and they are seizure-free for 30 days, why is it that that's accepted but when someone shrinks a tumor in their head or their breast using cannabis, That it's, that we need more data.

47:20BubblemanThat it's, well, we just, we don't want to say, why do we not want to give people hope? What's up with that?

47:27Wood ThrushCannabis definitely gave me hope.

47:29BubblemanI don't have hope. What's that, Woody?

47:33Wood ThrushYou guys and cannabis definitely gave me hope. So, cannabis definitely gives hope.

47:41BubblemanI think so as well. I think it's definitely one of the strong messages that the panel has from all the different places that we come from, from all the different patient stories that we've had. It always seems to be like, yeah, it's great if it can improve the quality of your life. It's amazing if it can extend your life. But it's just, it's the hope thing that it seems to be the one thing that this I don't want to say the agenda or whatever it is that seems to create systems like the one that you've suffered through or the one that all of us have suffered through via prohibition or many of the other systems that involve, you know, keeping half the planet starving or other strange things in poverty.

48:21BubblemanIt just seems to be the strangest of agendas when cannabis just seems to give hope in people that are trapped in those systems. You just get hope. And it's a powerful thing, Hope.

48:36Wood ThrushIt can be a dangerous thing to people that don't want us to have it.

48:43BubblemanRight. Yeah. I mean, it's a pretty, I mean, I can't even really wrap my head around the fact that you guys go over and, I mean, I know that probably you're not really fighting over there for the freedom of America. There's some deeper things going on and I won't get into that. But the idea is there that you're like soldiers and that you're like, you know, that everyone's proud of you and you probably get a big send off and everyone's giving you hugs and kisses and they're like, you're going for our country.

49:10BubblemanAnd it's just like that should be the shit that happens when you get back.

49:15SpeakerIt should be, but I don't know if you can agree with me on this, Woody, or not. When I left for war, I got the... I hope you come back in one piece. And when I came back, you know what was the first question people asked? Did you kill anybody? Exactly. Fuck. How fucked up is that? And let me tell you, as a veteran, for you to sit there and ask us that is absolutely don't.

49:40SpeakerDon't ever ask a vet that.

49:41Wood ThrushIt's nobody's goddamn business if I killed anybody or not. That's an intense question. Something I had to do in a situation that I had to do it. I had no choice. And it's nobody's business whether it happened or not.

49:54SpeakerBut, Bubble Man, this is a question everyone asks you. And this is why a lot of us get isolated and we go away is because, you know, we don't want to hear it. We've got to live with this. We've got to try to sleep through this. That's why a lot of us get drunk. And, you know, I was a terrible alcoholic after the war just to try to, you know, comprehend or just to forget to go to sleep.

50:15SpeakerOkay? Okay. So trust me, they want you forgotten and in society when you come back and they ask you time and time again, everyone you've known, every single friend, every teacher, every single person asks you that fucking question. How can you come back to society? Why do you want to come back to society? It's terrible. And everyone asking those questions are thinking it's cool or something.

50:39BubblemanWell, it's strange that even in the chat people are, oh, I ask people that question. Why isn't it anyone else's business? I'm just like that. When he said that in the chat, that shocked me that someone would ask you that question.

50:51SpeakerCan I stop for a minute? And from an outsider's perspective, and I dig your anger, I understand where it's coming from. It's obviously from an honest standpoint. From an outsider's standpoint, the way they sell us this shit is like it's fucking toy soldiers. And not to be rude, this is also why I think that until you go there and experience it, which I have not done nor would do, I would always be a fucking...

51:14SpeakerConscientious objector, but on the same front, man, I can still make friends with you guys and realize your pain. And the truth is, is that from us, we look at it, or people look at it like it's not as real as it is. I think if a lot of people knew what the fuck they were stepping into, we wouldn't have such an eager voluntary army. I mean, because you're putting yourselves in such a shitty situation.

51:36SpeakerEmotional space when you actually get involved with these people and go and do their fucking, their deeds. And, you know, I pity the pain you guys all got to carry afterwards, you know. But I can also understand why people don't relate at all to you, ATN, or when they're trying to understand what you went through because it's that disconnected. You know, so I say don't hold it against them so much.

52:03SpeakerThey just don't understand. Like an ant looking up at a skyscraper. We don't understand or have that empathy at that time. We're dealing with our trauma. And then when all you're dealt with is every single person you know is coming up to you time and time again the first time you see them, all you want to do is hug them and say, I'm alive. And the first question after they hug you is, so did you kill anybody?

52:24SpeakerAnd it's done in a sense of humor, but you've got to understand it's an absolute sock in the fucking balls. Every single time, and it becomes its own self-isolation and its own shame and its own fear. I mean, none of us take pride in killing people and having to do the worst that we've had to do. We did what we did, and that's it, okay? And it's even hard for me to accept people coming and saying, thank you for your service, you did a wonderful thing, et cetera, et cetera.

52:49SpeakerAnd it's like, yeah, we all struggle with that, and we all have our own way of dealing with it. But That gets even more confusing on the alcohol. It gets even more confusing when you're so clouded on pharmaceuticals that you can't see which way is straight. Right, Wood?

53:06Wood ThrushMost definitely.

53:12Wood ThrushYeah.

53:14SpeakerHow do you deal with that when they came up to you initially?

53:19Wood ThrushI stopped going in public.

53:23Wood ThrushWhen I came back in 2009, or 2006 or 2007, whenever it was, I couldn't go to Walmart by myself. I was in El Paso, Texas. I bought a house. I lived off post. I couldn't go to Walmart because they weren't speaking English and they weren't Americans.

53:52Wood ThrushPlease don't take me as anything but a kind-hearted person because I am. I was triggered so bad just going to Walmart that I had to go home. Wow. Because I needed my squad with me to go into a non-English speaking place and they weren't there.

54:10BubblemanHmm. That's some serious trauma for sure.

54:13Wood ThrushAnd I lived in the middle of El Paso, Texas where, if you know the geography of Texas, it's predominantly Hispanic.

54:24Wood ThrushSo, it took me years. Ten milligrams of Ambien and a half a bottle of Jack put you to sleep, and you don't dream, but it's not healthy either.

54:40SpeakerYeah, I could start into a second bottle of Jack into an evening just to go to sleep.

54:47Wood ThrushI got up, I want to say about a handle in two days. Damn, I've never even had a shot of Jack.

54:55BubblemanDon't drink it. It's not worth it. Trust me, dude. I figured that out when Motley Crue said it was their drink of choice.

55:06BubblemanLike 1983 or some shit, I'm like, these guys look fucking wasted. I think I'll just stick with my weed. I didn't even puff weed then, actually. I was a kid.

55:18Wood ThrushSo I would like you guys to also look at the Young Turks did an episode. There's a bill in the Senate. They're trying to make it so we can go to the VA with our medical card paperwork and they're going to be required to fill it out or help us fill it out. So vets are now going to have access to Thank you for watching.

56:14SpeakerHey, I'll just say it right here. I'm really glad you said that, ATN. A lot of us don't understand where you guys are coming from. And, you know, for you to vocalize how it felt to have that question thrown at you face time and time again, I'm really glad that you shared that with us. I, for one, you know, I don't think anybody wants to hurt the feelings of the people that we're trying to make friends with, if that makes sense.

56:36SpeakerYou know, people are trying to talk to you. I don't think they're trying to intentionally hurt your feelings, and they just don't know what they're saying. And that's it. You don't realize at the time, they don't realize what they're saying because again, you're just so confused by literally the shock of hearing it from me. It was from everyone. You hear it time and time again. You think, okay, this person isn't going to be that person.

56:56SpeakerThis person is going to accept me for who I am and then it comes and it comes and It does beat you down. I completely agree. And it's sad that we vets feel the need to shun ourselves and to hide because we don't want to hear that question. But as you said, Americans aren't taught that you're not supposed to ask those type of questions. Even from the responses in the chat, it stated, you know, people don't know not to ask that.

57:20SpeakerThey just think that's Part of it, and that's an accepted part of their reality is to ask you that, but it's not.

57:28BubblemanI would never conceive of asking that question to someone that went to war. It was shocking to hear him say that question in the chat room. I was just like, are you going to ask someone that? That seems pretty, I don't know, it's obnoxious. You would appreciate it if you did.

57:46SpeakerIt just shows the disconnect. A lot of us are so numb to it all and we don't really realize it. You know, I really think it's the ant to the skyscraper almost. You know, until you go and you experience it, it's really impossible to fathom.

58:01Wood ThrushVideo games make it so much worse, I think.

58:04SpeakerOh, you know, it's so weird, you know, I've had friends, one of my good friends is DJ Poo, he co-wrote Grand Theft Auto 3, and, you know, we've had pretty deep talks about, you know, the purpose that they play, you know, and I don't play video games, you know, and his reasoning to me was because you can manifest in your life what people manifest in video games, so you don't need video games, you don't use that as a fantasy, and I got that, but, you know, when he said that to me, then it tripped me out, because The way that most all games that like Rockstar Games puts out are first person shooters.

58:39SpeakerThey only had one title in their whole catalog that was not a first person shooter. And to me that's not a fantasy that I think we should all be fucking sitting around having is running around with different tactical weapons shooting other living beings.

58:57Wood ThrushWell that's where that question, did you ever shoot anybody, I think that's where that question comes from because They play these video games, they see people get shot, but nobody actually gets hurt. So when a soldier comes back from a real war, where people are really getting shot, they want to know, did you do it? I think, so, yeah, I think video games are part of the... Yeah, absolutely.

59:23SpeakerThe confusion of what's going on. It's a glorification of society. I mean, if you look at, you know, even cartoons nowadays, or even what we grew up to, Everything is solved through violence. And so it's inherently... Indicative in a child because they're raised visually on that perspective. So it's not so surprising that, you know, they're not taught how to actually handle those repercussions or the backside of that because they're not.

59:50SpeakerIt's only glorified the violence itself. And I'm not going to sit here and blame video games, you know. I'm going to blame society as a general because, well, as they said, they taught us how to go to war. They sent us all off. But when you come back, you get to know how to react. Thank you for watching.

1:00:24SpeakerThe military complex organized and we all started getting toy soldiers in our fucking, in our toys as little kids. That didn't happen a hundred years ago. There wasn't plastic. There wasn't little toy soldiers they pushed around. You know, the glamorization of warring has been indoctrinated into our educational system since we were all in fucking pre-kindergarten. You can't turn on a TV without seeing somebody get blown away for fucking You know in a commercial or whatever it's like they just throw it at us constantly and I'm not blaming video games.

1:00:59SpeakerAnd, you know, because society's part of video games, but when Woody says, man, video games sure don't make it any better, I agree with him. You know, and I think that it's one more spoke in the wheel that fucking could, you know, honestly get looked at. You know, and I'm not saying, oh, ban all video games, but let's be realiztic about what they're doing when they're conditioning people to fucking sit there and run around and shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot people, or shoot things, or shoot whatever the fuck's in their video game.

1:01:25Wood ThrushAnd kids, kids are playing these games. Kids way younger than, in my opinion, should be playing video games at all, but I would rather be outside until the sun goes down, personally.

1:01:37SpeakerMy aversion, to be really honest, to video games happened when I was only 12 years old and I had an actual motorcycle, a TS-100 sitting outside, and I went to my friend's house because they wanted a bag of weed. And I went to their house and they were playing a fucking pretend dirt bike video game in the basement, in the dark, and they wanted me to stay there and smoke my weed with them.

1:01:58SpeakerAnd I wanted to go ride actual trails because I had an actual motorcycle lead up against their actual house and I wanted to get the fuck out of this dark basement. And it just, I just, when I saw it and I realized that they will, they don't have motorcycles. They can't go do what I'm going to do, smell gas and mix oil and jump over shit. And this was their outlet, you know.

1:02:21SpeakerAnd that, and I just, I hate that, you know, they were doing it with a dirt bike, trying to race each other around a track, which is not unhealthy, but the fact that these guys are trading weapons and going in and wiping places out, it's like, it's a bad thing to meditate on. Like, meditation's powerful, you know, and if you're meditating on murder, I don't see how that benefits society for shit.

1:02:45SpeakerI get Rockstar Games is balls fucking deep in money, but the reality is, is how is that making all us bad? How is that doing anything, you know, good for society? Dare I ask the question?

1:02:56BubblemanI'd rather ride the dirt bike on the trails myself. I'm with you, dude. But not everybody has a dirt bike.

1:03:05Wood ThrushYou can walk those trails just as easy as you can ride a dirt bike on them.

1:03:09SpeakerYep.

1:03:10Wood ThrushI had a dirt bike. Being in nature, being out when it's quiet. On a bicycle or walking to me is one of the most therapeutic things I can do. I'll take my dog and we'll just go walk. And it takes me back to those foot marches in training. Yeah, I'm not forced to do it now and I don't have 150 pounds on my back and I'm actually enjoying being in nature as opposed to the forced nature of the military.

1:03:43Wood ThrushBut That's who I've been since I was a kid. I loved being outside. My friends had video games. We didn't even have a TV.

1:03:57Wood ThrushI grew up a very modest childhood, and we didn't have a lot, but we were happy.

1:04:08SpeakerWe were pretty on the DL too, but my stepdad was a biker and he thought it was cute that the little kid was a biker too. So I got my first bike when I was eight and they just kept pushing me along. And when I was a little kid, I was in a wheelchair for like eight months. My left hip, I got tumors in two locations and they broke through and I couldn't walk and I had to learn how to walk again and And I can't, I mean, long hikes or runs doesn't really appeal to me.

1:04:34SpeakerBut jumping on a dirt bike and exploring the wilderness was like a key to freedom.

1:04:40BubblemanAnd you can still get the quietness on the dirt bike when you ascend the top of a mountain. You just turn the motor off and then roll down in neutral. It's quite enjoyable. Hey, welcome, Tony.

1:04:52TonyWhat's up, guys? How are you guys doing today?

1:04:58BubblemanOh, we've been having some good conversations, smoking some nice bowls. Good chat going on. I think we've got almost 1,000 people watching live right now.

1:05:08TonyI used to... I'll tell you a story about motorcycles and video games. I used to... When I grew up, I guess it was some 38, so it's like... I had a couple of friends that... We grew up kind of in the country and didn't have cable or anything like that. And I had a friend that had... I would consider him rich. He had a tennis court and a huge pool and, like, three-car garage.

1:05:35TonyAnd his family's from the Philippines and they're, like, lawyers and doctors. And they always had, like, the latest and greatest video games and video game systems before it ever hit the U.S. And I remember going from, like, Nintendo and Sega and all the different variations. And we just more or less geeked out on, like, The response, because back then it was like a little different. They were still trying to match the response to your joystick and the graphics.

1:06:07TonySo every time new graphics came out, the closer it got to being real and the closer the controls got, it was kind of like more of a techie nerdy thing. But I used to, we used to do all kinds of outdoor stuff and play outside. And I also used to play video games. But I remember playing Excitebike and then having the false impression That I could literally go out there on my little mini bike and jump anything and do anything I wanted so the video games kind of gave me a false reality of where my skill level was actually at and unfortunately I had multiple motorcycle accidents and I had like the gear shift go into my leg one time.

1:06:50SpeakerDare I say though, Tony, I think a lot of kids get a false sense of bravado from the video games, the first person shooters as well. You know what I mean? You know, people used to talk a lot of Josh about did music, you know, Judas Priest when they got sued about influencing the youth. To be honest, I think I was influenced by the music of my childhood.

1:07:09SpeakerPeople like Zeppelin, the songs like Friends. You know, those lyrics, you know, anytime somebody needs you, don't let them down, although it grieves you. Someday you'll need someone like they do, looking for what you knew. That shit rocked me as a little kid, you know, listening to Zappa lay incredible poetic knowledge down It really did influence me in a way, and I feel bad for the kids that get their fucking, you know, they're sitting there staring at a fucking Technicolor screen shooting shit instead of listening to Zeppelin and the Beatles and other stuff that will open up their minds and their hearts to the world around them, you know, so.

1:07:46SpeakerTrue.

1:07:47TonyMy parents wouldn't let me, we only had so much time we could actually play video games, Or watch TV. So I was like restricted to, we didn't really have cable, so it was like, you know, if you weren't doing chores or doing homework or working or playing outside, like I could, I remember I could only play video games for like a certain amount of time and then it was like you can't do it anymore.

1:08:11TonyLike I got like an hour, you know, whether it was on the computer or whatever it was and it was like super restricted then because I think there was like rumors back then that like it would cause epilepsy or something and it was like, I remember being told that as a kid, like, oh, if you do it too long, you could end up like so-and-so, and you're like, what?

1:08:30TonyYou're like, okay, well, I won't.

1:08:32BubblemanIt was lifting when I was a kid, man. There was like 12 or 13 channels, and there just wasn't lots of good shit on. It was way better to go out and play some street hockey or go around on the dirt bike, and we didn't even have to be limited on our TV because it was just like, unless it was a hockey game at night, you know, or...

1:08:50BubblemanSomething sort of special like cartoons on Saturday morning. There really wasn't much going and sitting in front of the TV when you could be playing some good street hockey with your crew out front.

1:09:02TonyYeah, I never had a Sunday morning or Saturday morning cartoons, ever. Dude, Saturday morning cartoons.

1:09:13SpeakerI did, and I loved it. No reason to walk around the cock of the walk, fucking walk around with his little fucking chicken bouncing around him. Hey, what's going on, Spike? Hey, what's up, Spike? The cock of the walk. Fucking weird cartoons, man, and Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner trying to murder that little bird fucking steady. Constantly stalking and murdering this bird constantly.

1:09:43TonyThat is true. I remember that one where the coyote was chasing the... Roadrunner all the time. There was at least four or five deaths.

1:09:51BubblemanHe ordered a lot of shit from Acme, I'll tell you that much.

1:09:54SpeakerThat's right. Acme was the company for murder tools. Yeah.

1:09:59BubblemanYou could get all sorts of different murder traps from Acme. It was very wholesome. Good for children.

1:10:04TonyYeah, Roadrunner traps.

1:10:06SpeakerHow about we do a bong rip for the fucking Wile E. Coyote that never actually got to fucking kill the bird?

1:10:13TonyI think that's a great idea. I've got some of this Cuban strawberry.

1:10:19SpeakerDoes somebody have some acme hash to go with that?

1:10:25BubblemanI guess the question people would ask the coyote, the rude question would be, are you ever going to kill that bird?

1:10:33SpeakerMy question would be why do you want to kill that bird so fucking much? You got mice out there, you got all kinds of food sources other than that road running you can't catch. What did that fucking guy do to you, Wiley? It was false advertising from the get-go because you have to understand that in speed coyotes can And in the distance, they can beat a roadrunner.

1:10:55SpeakerThey can catch roadrunners. So it was all bullshit all along that we were fed. And see, all the while, I thought he was just hungry. I wasn't a vegetarian as a child. I thought he was just going to eat them. I was just going to say, out here on the East Coast, Acme is a big supermarket chain. So if he's got this thing on ordering food from Acme, why doesn't he just order some food from Acme?

1:11:18BubblemanYeah, no shit, he spent a lot of money on that stuff. He probably could have just ordered a couple of those Roadrunners already like diced up and de-feathered the whole nine yards ready to go.

1:11:27SpeakerFucking broiled in some duck fat even. Fuck, nice fucking culinary style. I'd like this episode where they get together, a reunion, and they have a hug. He works it out. They go on Dr. Phil, figure it out. I don't know.

1:11:44TonyWell, he also did more damage to himself every time. So all those contraptions he bought always backfired. Yep. He probably had some kind of return policy where it's like he kept getting bigger and better toys because they kept malfunctioning on him.

1:12:03SpeakerHe has a good return policy then, for sure.

1:12:09TonyYeah, I set up to trap the Roadrunner and it backfired and crushed me against the rock.

1:12:15SpeakerI used Roadrunner Guano one time to grow a crop. It grew really, really fast. That cartoon made me think I was going to deal with a lot more animals in my life than I really did.

1:12:27BubblemanIt grew really, really fast.

1:12:30TonyAll right, let's do a Roadrunner bong hit.

1:12:34BubblemanAre you kidding me?

1:12:35SpeakerCome on, Acme was just profiting this whole time. Look, every cartoon, Acme was just making poor money. Off that poor coyote just trying to get some dinner and just got ripped off by bad technology. I mean, what hasn't that taught us? The Acme Bros and Tech Company. False advertising, man. That's what took him down. I want to know where did that coyote get all of his money from?

1:13:04SpeakerWhat a rich girlfriend.

1:13:06Wood ThrushHe was sponsored by Acme, guys. Come on now, you know the hat.

1:13:11SpeakerHe was getting money for that. The Warner Brothers star. There's a big agenda there. All those traps he had. Just like Bubble Man and everyone sent him free shit. Exactly. His YouTube channel.

1:13:24TonyAcne had a secret agenda. You're saying Acne was behind trying to kill the Roadrunner.

1:13:29Wood ThrushYes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

1:13:31SpeakerI think Acne didn't want him to die because then they would lose their marketing position. What the fuck did this Roadrunner do? He was fast, that's it. They couldn't catch him. They had a company out to get him, a wily coyote, everything. That's crazy. My question is... He wasn't so wily. He was funny.

1:13:52Wood ThrushWhere did he get the paint to paint the train tunnel?

1:13:58SpeakerThat's what I want to know.

1:13:59BubblemanBecause he could run through the tunnel, but the coyote couldn't. I think Wiley was a hitman for the cartel, and the roadrunner did some real nasty shit to them, and that was it. That's why it's so consistent and persistent.

1:14:13SpeakerYeah, that cartoon often violated very many fundamental principles of physics, so it's a cartoon, folks, okay? You mean you can't go off a large cliff with a big spring and bring it right back up? Yes, you can, because it's a two-dimensional world. Boiled it. The cartoon. It's like Santa Claus ain't real, man. Come on. What? Wait, Santa Claus isn't real?

1:14:40TonyI guarantee you, Mark, if you take a couple bong rips, it becomes more and more real.

1:14:45BubblemanYep, and terp dips. Dip a terp in a bong rip.

1:14:49SpeakerAll right.

1:14:52SpeakerI really don't think people should be talking that Santa Claus isn't real on Hashtag Church because all the kids watching are now going to be really bummed out. Right. I was actually just kidding. I was kidding. I love Santa Claus.

1:15:09Wood ThrushI have a question about the Terps. Has anybody with triggering symptoms Use them to help alleviate those symptoms.

1:15:22TonyWell, I think you're Marijuana Mike on Instagram?

1:15:27Wood ThrushNo.

1:15:28TonyOh, somebody asked that. What kind of... So the whole point of why I actually even developed the terpenes was because when I was making the Pronoline in capsule and sublingual and topical, two things would happen was... You know, I created categories 1, P1, 2, 3, 4, and now 5. And when you make a raw line, meaning sublinguals and capsules, never get decarboxylated. And they're in its THCA form or CBDA form.

1:16:03TonyAnd a lot of people asked, when I first started making them, I did that because I was trying to create the widest range of the cannabinoids and terpenes that were present in the flowers. To be able to deliver them to patients without getting them as high that you would experience from let's say eating activated THC or even CBD, those effects are a little bit different. And when you, Mark and I had this conversation, the more I dove into it, the more it kind of made sense though, which was when you eat it, You go through, it goes through a different type of chemical process in the stomach.

1:16:48TonyThere's acids there and they break things down. And there is a conversion that happens in the gut. And so it makes sense that whether you're eating it raw or active, there's a tremendous amount of beneficial medicinal benefits to that. So I was always a strong believer in In capturing the raw form because I didn't want to single out certain cannabinoids and isolate them and say, okay, we know everything about CBD and THC because we don't know anything.

1:17:16TonyWe know 10% of what we think we know. And so when I was creating the active line, because patients that were smoking a lot of cannabis or using a lot of concentrates, they were looking for different delivery methods, but they enjoyed their medicine and they still wanted to feel the psychoactive response. The problem with that Is that when you decarboxylate something at 285 degrees for several hours, you just cook off and bake everything out so that you're not left with any of the terpenes.

1:17:46TonySo essentially you've got say activated THC without any modulation. And so that has a different effect when you take the terpenes out. So the process of creating those terpenes started with How do I preserve those terpenes and reintroduce them into the active line? And so that's what I did. So whether it's active CBD and CBN, I added ACDC terpenes back into it, or I would add different types of profiles of those cultivars back into categories.

1:18:25TonySo that's how the whole process started medicinally, and then we started introducing them to increase The saturation of terpenes and concentrates and full melt and terp melt and different things, and we started smoking them and vaping them. And then another realization came that, okay, not all terpenes you want to be vaporizing. So how do we extract the least amount of volatile terpenes possible? And when you have a plant that's alive and fresh and you have something that's like 1% terpenes, You've got 80% monoterpenes and monoterpenes can be very volatile and that's the difference between like say cured flowers and fresh frozen in the terpene world.

1:19:14TonySo there's categories of terpenes and how you can extract them and how you can reintroduce them. And so to answer your question, yeah, that is the whole point behind terpenes is to put them into delivery methods that patients can rely on, giving them You know, I go from one milligram to 50 milligram, so you have to have certain percentages of terpenes in those dosages that can help, you know, with the medicinal aspects.

1:19:49Wood ThrushI guess I just, my real question was, do you know of anybody who has effectively used terpenes to treat this disease? The symptoms I have are like I get triggered by something subconsciously, and I have a physical response to that. So I'm looking for a combination of things that allows me to be relaxed from that trigger, but also still be clear-headed, able to drive, able to go to school.

1:20:23Wood ThrushSo that's a product. That's the product that I'm searching for.

1:20:28TonyYeah, so that's the non-active. So...

1:20:33TonyI didn't hear your first part of your question because my dog went completely apeshit because somebody walked in. Could you repeat the first part of that?

1:20:44TonyWhat you just asked. Sorry.

1:20:46Wood ThrushIt's okay. I get triggered by stimulus and I need a product that brings me back down to Quickly and safely, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

1:21:04TonyOkay, so you're looking for... So, this is where it gets real neat. With those different categories, there's ways to dial that in. So, are you looking for something that's like a sedative, like a muscle relaxer? You're talking about coming down?

1:21:19Wood ThrushYes, a muscle relaxer, but also that I could stay clear-headed.

1:21:26TonyOkay, so... That would be, is this something you want to use during the day?

1:21:34SpeakerYes.

1:21:35TonyOkay. Okay. So you could use, so I would shift towards the, so the different, when you're talking about, when people talk about high CBD and low THC or 4 to 1 or 8 to 1, so you got to be, you have to like kind of dive a little bit deeper into that. So how are they, what flowers are they using? In those particular ratios, a lot of people are just decarboxylating those categories, so they're just like, this is CBD.

1:22:07TonyOkay, well, how is that derived? Well, this is THC. How is that derived? To me, what that translates to is, okay, what terpene profiles am I going to use with that particular category? Uh, compound. So, I make a P3, which is a 1 to 1, that's derived AC, DC, canatonic, um, and pair that with OGs and cushions. And so those terpene profiles that are cushy or OG, um, if you look deeper into them, you can see why, and you would see different profiles of terpenes, and you would see higher concentrations of myrcene versus limonene.

1:22:46TonyAs you would go through different cultivars. And so I pair those in those categories with that. So you could get a terpene that does exactly what you said, which where it would kind of mellow you out, but still keep you clear headed. And you could do that in a sublingual the fastest way. And you could do that with a one-to-one with the indica and cushions paired into that one-to-one.

1:23:15TonyAnd so think of like CBD OG, CBD Kush versus CBD Jack, CBD Harlequin. You know, things that would be long, narrow leaf would be paired with those terpenes and things that would be broad, short leaf would be paired with that. And so if you used a one-to-one that was paired with that particular profile, It would mellow you out. It would feel like a slight sedative, but you'd be very clear-headed.

1:23:45TonyYou'd be very alert, and you'd still be completely functional. You wouldn't feel like you just ate a brownie or you had something, and you'd get really heavy behind the eyes. If you did something where it was CBD and CBN together, which is like our P4, that's really good in small dosages for anxiety. So like two milligrams under the tongue for like a PTSD or anxiety, or you would do like 10 drops under the tongue for insomnia.

1:24:13TonyAnd so that one probably, even with a couple drops of CBD and CBN, would feel like something that would help you with anxiety or help you kind of be mellow, but it might not be as clear-headed if you weren't suffering from anxiety. If you were just trying to, you said a stimulant, I didn't know what you meant, but if you were trying to come down From whatever other condition or drug, it would kind of depend.

1:24:37TonyBut that's like where you have the flexibility. And that's where I started the whole product line. So a patient could say, okay, I can pick and choose different categories with different milligrams with different delivery methods. And I could start as low as a couple milligrams and work my way up to 50 milligrams depending on what your experience with cannabis was. And the raw, you know, every day, Even at Harborside, I'm doing training and teaching, and, you know, people stay away from, like, they don't know what THCA is.

1:25:09TonyAnd so I'm like, well, just try the sublingualist THCA. And they're like, no, no, no, I don't want to be stoned. I'm like, well, two milligrams of THCA under the tongue isn't going to get you stoned. It's a completely different response. And so, you know, I like the combination of raw, and I like the combination of raw and active. And you just could choose. I think you would find that would be what you're describing.

1:25:49Wood ThrushRight now I just use THC heavy products and just basically keep myself sedated most of the time.

1:26:01Wood ThrushIt works. I've learned to live with it, but it would be much more comfortable if I was sitting in class and not trying to stay awake.

1:26:11TonyYeah, this started, the reason why this, like the mentality where I started with that was like four or five years ago, lots of cancer patients were trying to take Rick Simpson oil, which I don't have anything against it. That's not my position to make a position on it, but it's a tea, it was, Back then, I don't know what it is now, but back then it was people trying to eat a half gram to a gram a day of activated THC derived from like an ethanol distillation extraction, which really does a great job isolating and activating that THC.

1:26:44TonyAnd when you're eating that much a day, patients are complaining that they're completely, you know, stoned out of their mind and sedated at home. And so I started creating non-actives in capsule form and in sublingual and You know, a lot of those patients in the beginning, I was like, hey, this is experimental. I'm making a whole bunch of different medicine. Let's try it. And the people we were working with were giving it to different patients and friends.

1:27:11TonyWe went to kids with epilepsy and brain tumors, cancer patients, autism, MS. We just started giving it away to different categories and, you know, trying to take a generalization, observational notes and seeing what was helping, what wasn't. The combination of utilizing non-active cannabinoids in pairing and sequencing during the day and using activated at night is what I currently promote because it gives you a true balance and full spectrum of the plant.

1:27:46TonyYou're saying, okay, I'm going to get everything I can in raw form during the day. It's going to give me energy. It's going to give me pain relief. It's going to help with all kinds of different Thank you so much for joining us.

1:28:25Wood ThrushI definitely agree with everything you just said. And I look forward to being able to get access. That's my biggest problem now is I don't have the space to grow enough to produce my medicine. I'm blessed with friends who I'm able to get it from, but I think a lot of vets are in the same situation I'm in where I want to use cannabis medicine, and that's all I want to use.

1:28:56Wood ThrushBut for a vet who is on a limited income, the only option he really has is to go to the VA and take whatever they'll give him.

1:29:06TonyYeah, I have a vet that Bubble Man was asking about some patients the other day, and I have someone that we helped and we donate medicine to through Harborside through their vet program. That, um, it's like, uh, it's a tearjerker. Um, and anyone that understands those kind of conditions, I mean, if you don't understand it within five minutes of hearing someone talk about it in their story, it touches you and you understand it very deeply.

1:29:39TonyAnd, uh, I'd like for him to share his story because he, uh, he had, he has a very severe case and we were able to find something that really profoundly changed him. And it's a combination of inactive during the day and active at night. And I'm really proud of him. He put something on YouTube and he wrote a bunch of stories. I think he even wrote the President Obama with his three-page or four-page letter.

1:30:11TonyAnd that's the biggest thing is the access. And so they have a huge database here that's on a certain type of income. And cannabis is still like federally legal, so you don't have insurance or any way to access it. And then if you access it, and they catch you with it, then they kick you out of the program. It's just like, it's mind-blowing. It's like, come on, you know, you enacted someone to sacrifice their life and put their families through everything, and they served the country.

1:30:45TonyThey did their duty, and when they come back, the least you could do is grant them Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:31:18TonyHis addiction came back. And that's not a solution. You've got people dying. All year we see people in the press dying from prescription drugs. So at what point does our government allow at least our vets to make those choices for themselves and not be punished for trying a natural alternative that I feel from seeing the vets that we've worked with. 85, 95% success rate with cannabis and vets.

1:31:50TonyI mean, there's not very, very few vets in comparing to what their alternative is. Success rates are extremely high.

1:32:01SpeakerRight. Well, there was news this week, right? I don't know if this was covered earlier in the program, but... Thank you so much for joining us.

1:32:26SpeakerAnd one in Phoenix. And I think if you are eligible and you're in that area, I think you might be able to enroll for the clinical trial.

1:32:35Wood ThrushWhat I read was they already have the members for that study. I think I probably read the same article you did online. I'm glad that they get to do it. It's amazing.

1:32:50SpeakerIt is a significant thing for the DA to allow that. And again, we talked about it last week. The DA is going to be looking at rescheduling or descheduling too, which is also a significant step in the right direction.

1:33:07TonyOne thing I wanted to bring up, which was interesting, and a lot of people don't know this, but you can even Google this, Wiki it, whatever you want. But it was something I was looking at. The WHO, World Health Organization, it was either in 1991 or 1996, I think they started in 91, they declassified cannabis to a Schedule II or III, and then in 99, again, reclassified it to a IV or V, and then the UN, with the World Health Organization, did this.

1:33:47TonyIt's kind of interesting that there's international de-scheduling and the World Health Organization also reclassified it, yet the United States is still standing strong in their position. So it's eventually going to cave.

1:34:02SpeakerYeah, we addressed this week, Tony, at the United Nations General Assembly Special Section And Sue, not Sue, but Steph Shearer and a small delegation from ASA, Americans for Safe Access, attended. I saw Jehan. Posted a few pictures from sort of in the bowels of the UN building. But again, it is something that's being addressed and I think that that's a critical treaty, again, which is the treaty I think that ties Obama and a lot of people's hands to not be able to make some type of move federally against it because this treaty kind of binds them to keeping it, again, in that list of All the bad things like heroin and LSD.

1:34:56TonyYeah, so they have to basically amend a treaty that stands in the place of them reclassifying it. It's not a U.S. or a Canada or a Jamaica or a Spain thing. This is a global thing.

1:35:11SpeakerYeah, it's a global thing. I mean, this is why Uruguay and Jamaica, this is why it was problematic worldwide in many places. And people like, you know, Portugal just gave the big F you. Fuck you. We're just going to do it. You know, there's a lot of people who just said, you know, who cares about that treaty anyway? In fact, I don't even think, I think we're delinquent on paying our U.N. rent, right?

1:35:33SpeakerDoesn't the U.S. Regardless, we passed it. And we allowed it to be passed again without any argument. It was passed by the U.N., I'm just reading it in my news feed here of how it was just passed without any type of challenge from anything. So it's back to status quo. That's unfortunate. Yeah, so that's really what we're talking about. I've got to step in them and I've got to give Jayhan them credit for going out there and really trying to do influence.

1:36:05SpeakerThese people dressed up in 1920s prohibition outfits and were passing out prohibition times to educate these people. But in the end, the General Assembly shut any argument down. It was just same old, same old, sadly.

1:36:20TonyYeah, so I think that's where the... The key target is when you talk about targets in different states and countries, it's a global. You need to go, you got to, you got to put your, we got to put our forces together and go that direction because nothing stops without that. So we've been all in our own little circles of say, okay, we got to get this state to go and that state to go and the U.S. has to go here and Jamaica and Uruguay, go for it.

1:36:46SpeakerHey, chat room, I like LSD, okay, for the record. It's all good, buddy.

1:36:53TonyWhat happened?

1:36:54SpeakerI don't know. I guess I misspoke.

1:36:58TonyHey, I did want to tell you this, Mark, and I'm not trying to brag or anything, but we did have a moment Friday. My partner flew in because he, Ernie, my partner at United Cannabis, he was actually married on dead tour on 4-20 as his anniversary, and I said, hey, there's some rumor, there's rumor that Bob Weir might be coming by the lab. And he said, he goes, no way.

1:37:33TonyThis was like on Monday. I said, yeah, you know, I think there might be a rumor. So he booked a flight to land at 1.30 based on the information that I had. And lo and behold, bro, he showed up on Friday. And I was just like,

1:37:55TonyLike that.

1:37:56BubblemanI was just like... I thought you were frozen up there.

1:38:00TonyI was literally like... You were like... No, and you know what? I broke down the endocannabinoid system like a guitar. And it was interesting because he's really... He's a really fucking cool dude. And when he speaks, it's like real global residence, if you will. But...

1:38:26SpeakerOur mutual friend Asshole Joe was actually at TRI Studios for that Purple Rain that they did. They did a Purple Rain with a couple really well-known reggae stars.

1:38:40SpeakerAsshole Joe was introduced to Bob Weir as one of the most incredible growers on the planet. And Bob immediately was like, oh, okay. Like, yeah. You know, I mean, I think that had a very profound impact on how, you know, someone's introduced as being the best herb grower on the planet. Obviously he's not, but that's just how he was introduced. I thought that was funny.

1:39:06TonyI saw AJ on his way into the cup on that Sunday, too. It was funny. But, yeah, no, the, but, you know, Bob was, you know, so I had my, you know, We had five minutes of non-fumbling to talk, trying to explain the whole prana system, non-active, inactive, cannabinoids, and terpenes. The terpenes was interesting because you had different people with them, and I let them smell like orange creamsicle.

1:39:33TonyI let them smell ACDC. I let them smell really different profiles, Red Congolese and Kush Cleaner. Their faces, every time they smell a different terpene, It was a story. You could see that their reaction was different, different people that were with him. I kind of just tried to do my best and explained it like a guitar. I said, well, there's 12 chromatic notes that you can play.

1:40:01TonyAll the music we listen to is, for the most part, all the music that we all listen to is those 12 chromatic notes, and they're just played differently. There's different expressions and different ways that we play those notes. And I said, so if the cannabinoids were like those 12 chromatic notes, and you as the player, and the effects that you put behind those notes were the terpenes, that would be an explanation of what's going on.

1:40:28SpeakerI think there's a different musical analogy and that is like the terpenes, when you say terpenes from a strain, you're really smelling an orchestra. It's like listening to an orchestra. So each individual molecule can be an instrument in the orchestra. So you have your violas, your violins, your cellos, your bass fiddles. Then you have your woodwinds and you have your brass and All of that creates, again, the sensation when our olfactory senses these terpenes and we taste them, whether we're either sensing it by touching real flower or smelling the flower itself, which is a very different sensation than actually vaping.

1:41:16SpeakerIt's so cool if you can take out the individual Not notes, but I would say individual instruments, and each instrument would be an individual molecule, like myrcene might be your chair one violin, which is what you're going to hear the most, because chair one is right there, right in front of the audience, and it's going to be loud, above all the other violins that are there, but it's kind of like what you hear when Thank you for joining us.

1:42:14SpeakerYeah, you could probably come up with a quartet or a smaller representation of the orchestra, and that orchestra might be missing the trumpets or it might be missing, but you're really getting like the still, the main essence, which is that first, you know, first couple notes when the orchestra starts playing. But I think the orchestra to sort of Have that analogy over the top of, say, the cannabis terpenes, and then the instruments being the individual molecules themselves is a cool analogy.

1:42:52BubblemanWell, that's your point that I just took was frigging delicious.

1:42:58TonyYeah, bubble man. You've got to try this sometime. So this is, if you take like 100 drops. 80 drops or so, 100 drops. Yeah. And you put in, you know, a couple grams of rosin, and you just shake it up. Even with the 10 drops, you could put a half a gram in there. Just shake it up and, like, literally just kind of stir it in and mix it in.

1:43:23TonyBut one thing I've noticed, this is what I've been doing. Some people at the cup, this was, by the way, this was all I brought to the cannabis cup. This was filled to the top.

1:43:34SpeakerHmm.

1:43:34TonyThis and, I think I had a little bit of hash on me, but not much. I just brought this because I tried to go light and just hang out. Literally, it's one drop at a time. What's cool about this is this was like around 11 to 12 milligrams per drop. This is more than 50%. If you went by weight, I did two and a quarter grams of

1:44:07TonyCheese rosin and two, a little over two mils of Jack Frost terpenes. And this was kind of filled up to the top. And so you could get like a feel of, you know, 170 drops at about 1,500 milligrams.

1:44:24SpeakerWhat was the starting color of the liquids? Were they clear? What's up? Was the starting color of the liquids clear? Yeah, all the terpenes are clear. Yeah, so what are the colors from the hash?

1:44:37TonyYeah, the colors from the hash. So it could get like light blonde. It gets darker and darker as you add more to it. It's still clear. It's kind of hard to see if I put my hand behind it. It's still very fluid, right? It's just really strong. So what we've been doing is yesterday was a little event, and I've been doing this. You just... I've been doing this.

1:45:04TonyYou take one drop. You can put it on somebody's hand, you lick it, right? Super sweet. Tastes like fruit. And then, I've been calling them ninja dabs, Bubble Man, because we were talking about this a long time ago. You know, no tools, no residual, no chemicals, in and out like a ninja.

1:45:33SpeakerAh, Tony.

1:45:36BubblemanI like the pinky placement.

1:45:38SpeakerThat's so awesome. He was over here with a friend of ours, and he did the same thing. Tony, he did 85 drops of terpenes with 2 grams of rosin, a quarter gram of 99.9% heads, and a quarter gram of something else. He's calling it elephant tranquilizer. I still have the dropper right here for him. We were fucking hitting this shit like, oh my God, so tasty. It was unreal.

1:46:03SpeakerIt was at a 420. It was awesome. It was like... Yeah, it's funny. It's just tasty as tasty. Have you guys tried to eat it yet?

1:46:16SpeakerNo. That's the more interesting question. Do you know any elephants? That was just awesome, right? It's just another level, but it was funny because he was making a posture. Even the 10 drop vials, we're at this little event.

1:46:37Tony420 Wellness is a really cool event. And they're asking, well, how do you use terpenes? And I'm like, I took a vial and I took somebody's rosin. I'm like, well, you could take, you could, you know, you could do the terpenes on their own. I was like, but I suggest, you know, mixing them. And I showed them, like, this was like a terp rosin. So this is like, you know, probably a half a drop to a gram in with some rosin.

1:47:06TonyAnd I said, you could do that, you know, because everybody's making rosin and different things. You could add it to your own extract. You could add it to a pen. You could add it to this or that. And then everyone asked me, well, what's in that vial? What's that about? Literally every single person. And I was like, oh, that's advanced. That's advanced stuff. And then every single person was like, well, let me have a drop of that stuff first.

1:47:30TonyAnd the reaction on it is really cool. You know, I was taking like a quarter gram, gram, putting them into the 10 drops that I had there. And, you know, even with that, you could create a thicker concentration. You could get it down to where it's more like a dabble solution too, you know. But, yeah, I would strongly advise doing what you just said, combining the two.

1:48:03TonyI had Cuban try it. And I was like, look, man, I'm willing to work for Ninja Dabs. He's like, what do you mean? I'm like, this isn't a retail thing. I'm not trying to sell it. I just want to, like, get some of your product. We'll do a split. You can have yours. I can have a vial. I was like, I just want to get. So you can even make the rosin and give it back to me.

1:48:24TonyI just want to have a bunch of these because it's just super tasty to do it that way.

1:48:33BubblemanYeah, the whole 85 drops of terpenes, you'd think it's probably going to be pretty tasty.

1:48:41BubblemanThat's just outrageous. That's another level. Cuban says he's down.

1:48:48SpeakerThe funny part about this is once Brian left, he went down to the bottom of the Airbnb and he went and took a piss about 2 a.m. And he had actually put it in his little waistband. And when he got home, he had realized that he lost it, came back with a flashlight and found it in the bushes.

1:49:05TonyYeah. Glad he didn't lose it. So, yeah, what I'm doing, Bubble Man, you see this little dropper? We are going to start including them in with the turps with a long vial. Because I want the dropper to have its own case and nothing better than the vial. If you try to take the dropper and there's a, you asked me this before, this special kind of lid is what you need to have for the terpenes.

1:49:44TonyBut if you put this in here and you don't have that type of seal, then that rubber could eat away and get into your terpenes. So what you essentially need is a dropper with another glass vial as a case and then your terpenes. And so that's what I'm going to start moving towards moving forward with the Blue River terpenes in itself and anything that I do is just trying to create more of a casing for this.

1:50:20TonyYou know, because it's like, where do you put this? You don't want this to be dirty. You don't want to put it on the counter. You don't want to put it in a dish.

1:50:25BubblemanOh, dude, it's a great idea. I can tell already that all the other people doing Terps are super excited to have a new thing to be able to do for their Terps because they're watching you. You're talking. You're telling them what to do. And now you'll see like 10 new companies on Instagram in the next week. We're doing our dabbers inside the jars in order to protect them.

1:50:44BubblemanWe got these.

1:50:46TonyWell, here's the thing. You can't stop people from trying to copy it. It's going to happen anyway. It's wonderful.

1:50:54SpeakerIt's a great idea because as I'm sitting here holding this little thing, it's so dirty and messy inside this jar. What do you do with it? It's like, great, great, good on you, Tony, as always.

1:51:03BubblemanI hate my dabbers for that reason. I have all these turps sitting here, and each one of my flavors has its own dabber, as you can see here. Yep. And I keep them together. I don't fuck around. And same with all these ones that are over here.

1:51:19TonyYeah.

1:51:20BubblemanAll these dabbers have to stay together.

1:51:22TonyYeah, exactly. So, then there's something else that I'm working on that'll make all that life even easier, but in the meantime, the fix is micro-dabber inside its own little glass vial that you can use, set them side by side. That's just the way to go, so that way it's done that way. Right. You know, the drop thing is kind of like not a very accurate way to read stuff.

1:51:52TonyWhere some people are like, oh, I have 10 drops or 15 drops. I mean, that's not really, that's not a scientific measurement of liquid volume.

1:52:00BubblemanIt's not accurate at all unless you have one of those pipettes, whatever you call it.

1:52:05TonyYeah, you have one. So you can see like it's exact every time.

1:52:11SpeakerYeah.

1:52:11TonyIt's not .2, it's not .22.

1:52:15TonyIt's exactly .25 or .5 or .1. But yeah, so this is like a good combination of what you're preaching out there with people. When the guy was saying how does he access medicine as a vet, I mean, the way I would do that is, you know, take some bubble hash, even cooking grade, whatever you can get your hands on, and you could always press it out yourself with a hair iron or some Rosin bags, make some rosin.

1:52:45TonyIf you did it, you're making THCA, you're activating under 3%. And so you can make rosin from that or you can take bubble from that. They're both under 3% activated. Until you apply 285 degrees for two hours, you're not going to decarboxylate or heat that. So you can literally take your keef or you could take your ash or you could take your rosin and split it down the middle.

1:53:12TonyAnd say this category is THCA and this category is going to be my THC. And you can put one in the oven just on its own, 290 degrees for a couple hours, and you've activated it. And the other one set to the side is pretty damn close to non-activated. And so you can take those two side by side, you can put them into, you know, Any substrate, you can put it into coconut oil.

1:53:38TonyYou can warm up some coconut oil and infuse it into coconut oil like Bubble Man and John were talking about making caps that way or just making butters or making different foods as long as you don't keep a temperature on the raw starting material past 250, 285. As soon as you get past 30 minutes to an hour, it starts converting. There's many ways you can have that balance in your life.

1:54:07TonyThe guy that was talking earlier is by just accessing Keef, Bubble Hash, separate the two, activate one pile, and do a combination of those two. So if you want to be more clear-headed and you still want to be a little sedated, you can kind of play with those two. So once you have like equal amounts of proportions and you dose them out and whatever you're doing, Whether it's in a food or in an oil or in a butter, you know that that container contains X amount of milligrams and X amount of volume with equal X amount of dosages.

1:54:43TonySo you could make caps from it and you could say, okay, I'm going to eat 20 milligrams of THCA and 20 milligrams of THC. And that's what I do with our P1 category. You know, we combine 10s, 20s, and 50 milligrams of THCA and THC. We're going to be talking about the P5 active to balance those two non-active and active ratios. Once you start playing with those two as a patient, it'll give you different ideas of where you could go with it and the ailments that you're trying to manage.

1:55:20TonyIt gives you a lot more flexibility in that because everyone is so different, responds differently to cannabinoids. You might say, well, I took the P5 active 50-milligram With a 10-milligram THCA and five drops of a three-to-one non-active, and that was like the magic combination for you, you know? And so that's what I always try to, that's what the vision of Prana was for patients in that exact position.

1:55:51TonyThey're like, okay, I want to be able to access it, but once you access it, you can get different layers, and you can, like Mark says, you create your own symphony, you know? But if you're at home and you're in a state and you follow Bubble Man, I mean he's taught you how to get THC in the easiest form. You can keep it, save it, you know, you can wash it.

1:56:19BubblemanThere are a variety of ways to access it, that is for sure. I tell people all the time, you know. If you don't have access to get these great products that you've heard lots about and you're excited about, it's like the phytocannabinoids really are the most magical aspect of any of these products. So it's like get some in whatever form you can. Extract it using simple methods like coconut oil and consume it orally.

1:56:43BubblemanPut it on your skin.

1:56:47TonyIt's better than nothing if you can't access it. It's like saying I want to get these supplements and whatever you get, That's how it started for me even in the 90s. It's like I started using cannabis that way, overcoming opiates and trying to replace them and realized, okay, if I made like a butter and I use a little bit of butter in every bit of my food or I made an olive oil, I started making THC tortellinis and different foods and then realized, okay, that was way too much or that's not enough.

1:57:20TonyAnd that's like fundamentally how it starts. And then if you move from edibles, And you get into like just coconut oil, like eating coconut oil. It's healthy for you right off the spoon. So you can infuse it that way and just swish it around in your mouth and swallow it.

1:57:40BubblemanThat's what I do every single day. Twice a day in the morning and at night. I did it already this morning. And it's just some nice coconut oil that it's super easy to make in a crock pot. You can decarboxylate it. And you can make it as strong as you want. You can put as little as a gram or two grams into a cup of coconut oil.

1:58:00BubblemanI usually do between four and eight. You could even go higher. It just depends on what kind of a concentration and what kind of a dose you want. But it's pretty darn easy to do. Even if you didn't have hash, you could even do it with cannabis. It does come out a lot greener and have a much stronger sort of taste that I'm not really akin to, but...

1:58:20BubblemanI prefer really nice clean hashes and then it comes out golden and it has a nice taste.

1:58:26Wood ThrushWe need to start recording this data. What's that, Woody? We need to record the data. You said sometimes you use more or less depending on how you want to make it. We need to start recording this data so that say a vet who's never used cannabis products before in his life can come in and we can say well if you start here you're going to get A better example of a treatment than, like, say, for example, you get some full plant extract or some oil that's 90% THC.

1:59:05Wood ThrushThe first time a vet with PTSD takes that, it might freak him out and he never touches it again because it was too much. So we need to start as a community.

1:59:14TonyThey've got to start with microdosing. That's why they've got to start with microdosing, one milligram drops at a time.

1:59:21Wood ThrushRight, but people don't understand that. They see people dropping two grams of cash on a nail, and they're like, well, I'm going to try that, and then it freaks them out because it's too much too fast.

1:59:33TonyAbsolutely. Yeah, I never start, I start everyone that says they're new to cannabis, and the world of microdosing is unbelievable.

1:59:42Wood ThrushI still like those.

1:59:45TonyYeah, there's quite a few studies out there. It's, There's one, Mark will probably know which one this is. There's one about cannabis pharmacopoeia in the sense of testing blood, they test your blood and plasmid. They show like you eating and digesting 40 milligrams versus micro dosing like a sublingual. It was around 1.5 milligrams was their, I think it was their best results. But it showed like as far as effectiveness in patients and pain relief and the consumption rate like around one to two milligrams under the tongue as a microdose was just as effective if not more than 40 milligrams, roughly 30 to 40 milligrams of THC digested.

2:00:36TonyAnd that's why everyone talks about sublinguals or different delivery than eating it, you know, even as an edible. And so the microdosing is key. Too many patients like eat an edible that's 100 milligrams and then they just never go back to cannabis. They just get frightened. They get scared. And they're like, yeah, I don't know how you guys do that. I'm never going to do it. And nothing you can say to them will change their mind.

2:01:04TonyThat's the education. It's like if you're new to cannabis, don't start with 100 milligram edible.

2:01:09Wood ThrushRight. When I lived in Colorado, I bought a, it was, I think it was 20, or it was 30, I think it was 30, it was broken up into 10, 310 milligram pieces. And I ate one, and I was like, I really didn't do anything. Like 45 minutes later, I was like, I'm feeling okay, so I ate the rest of it. Well, 15 minutes later, I was floored.

2:01:31Wood ThrushI got back to my apartment in Denver, and I stayed there, because I was like, if I go anywhere in this city, I'm new, I'm going to get lost. And I'm never going to find my house again. So I got that feeling, but at the same time I was like, I've been on the pharmaceuticals, so this has to work. I have to figure out a way to dose this so it's effective.

2:01:53Wood ThrushAnd it took getting up to large amounts and then coming back to a smaller dose. So I'm back down. I micro-dab all day long, and it keeps me normal. So I never get too high and I never get too low. I keep myself normal in what I call normal.

2:02:13SpeakerYour version.

2:02:17SpeakerBall rip.

2:02:20TonyBall rip.

2:02:22SpeakerBall rip.

2:02:28BubblemanYeah, Todd's like, I'm not having a fucking ball rip.

2:02:38SpeakerIt's a good discussion today. There's a lot, you know, to always talk about. So little we know, and there's so much to learn.

2:02:46BubblemanThat is for certain right there. That is for certain. Well, we sure had a crazy 420 here in Vancouver. I personally didn't go. It looked pretty good from the chopper I flew over. Right down there. And took beautiful pictures. It's a pretty cool picture you can go in on and zoom in. It's like super high resolution of the panoramic version of all the people standing down at the beach.

2:03:13BubblemanReal nice weather for it too.

2:03:16SpeakerWhere do you look at that? Where do you look that up, Mark?

2:03:20BubblemanIt was on, I think Jody Emery actually posted it on her Facebook. If you go and look through her Facebook.

2:03:28SpeakerCool. It was amazing. I was down there and fucking it was amazing. Amazing to sit down on the grass with my mothership, with two of my bros, getting high, watching this concert, enjoying the freedom of, enjoying the absolute freedom of what we were doing without having it under a table, without having to sneak it in or anything like that. It was fucking amazing. What a, what a day.

2:03:58SpeakerI can't stress it enough. It was the best day ever. In the fucking world. Damn. It was a cannabis festival. That's what it was. You know, 50,000 plus people on the beach. Everybody was selling weed. There was more weed sold at 420 than we've ever seen. It was as far as you can see. I mean, I had the Airbnb up here and you guys could see the view if you can or not, but it was just amazing.

2:04:25SpeakerIt was by far the best event that we've ever been to where it was not cannabis friendly, where The next day the grounds were completely cleaned up. It was once again a very good event with hardly no arrests. There was no arrests. I think it was like three incidences to the whole thing. Dana Larson did a really good article. He anticipated there was 100,000 plus people. Definitely check out his page.

2:04:53SpeakerBut it was as far as you can see from one end to the other. I have some great pictures of being on there at 420. Very cool, very cool. A lot of fun just chilling with people that

2:05:30SpeakerI have the same mindsets and coming up and shaking your hand and being nice. It was great. If it was a beer garden and it was just starting to get dark and the cop said, okay, let's shut this down, I wonder what would have been the difference on what did happen. Because what did happen was everybody just started pulling up, pulling their tents down, their displays, Cleaning up their garbage, left their garbage in piles because they didn't have a way to exit.

2:06:02SpeakerSo a bunch of neat piles and there was some critters that went into the garbage a bit and spread it out and maybe some news people did too to make it look kind of bad that tried to kind of deface the people in the whole situation that did that, that did the cleanup because they were late to pick the garbage up the city. They did it the next morning.

2:06:25SpeakerOther than that, everything was absolutely perfect. Everybody left. Like I said, I wonder how the hell it would have been if it was a beer garden. Anybody got a suggestion in the difference? Just curious. The best part about all that information you talked about there I got pictures of that whole grounds in the morning, and they took pictures of this one pile in the back corner to make it look bad, but overall, Jody posted all those pictures.

2:06:51SpeakerThe grounds looked amazing. I got full pictures, and I posted it and stuff like that. So they took pictures of one pile that everybody dug into in the back corner. It was really bad publicity, but you know what? That never happened. It was just an amazing thing. Bullshit propaganda. It was. Bullshit propaganda. Enthusiasts and enjoyers. Did an outstanding job on every level. They did an amazing job.

2:07:17Speaker100%. For sure. Everybody was out there cleaning up. But I saw in the morning with metal detectors going over the whole beach between 6, 7, 8 a.m. There was nobody out there doing anything else. They were just metal detectors looking for anything and everything. You know what I mean? It was fully scoured.

2:07:33SpeakerBut on that note. Can't wait until next year. Awesome. How was everybody? Yeah, how was everybody's 420?

2:07:43BubblemanWell, mine wasn't like the best day ever in the whole world, but I had a pretty good day. I sat on my deck, I enjoyed the sun, puffed a few bowls, just chilled out. It was too busy in the city for me. I wanted to hang out at home and be in the quiet and the relaxation. I may have done a 420 live. I can't remember if I did one that day or not.

2:08:07BubblemanStill good.

2:08:08SpeakerWe missed you down there, Mark.

2:08:11BubblemanWell, I flew in that morning. I flew in from Toronto that morning. It was like a 4 hour and 20 minute flight actually, which was kind of funny. Our flight will be 4 hours and 20 minutes today. Kind of made me laugh. I always have 420 flight things go on.

2:08:37SpeakerI pay $4.20 at drive-thrus or get $4.20 and change at fucking places.

2:08:44BubblemanWhat kind of fucking places are you going to? Like are these the type of places that you go to fuck or are they just the type?

2:08:51SpeakerNo, no, $4.20. Thugway, go in and get your $4.20.

2:08:54Bubbleman$4.20 change.

2:08:54SpeakerWhat are you talking about?

2:09:05BubblemanWe don't have a clue what we're talking about. It's all just sort of past church, you know?

2:09:11TonyWell, 420, I apologize. I didn't come to Vancouver. I didn't realize it was on a Wednesday. It kind of screwed me up. Don't have a calendar? My 420 was not anything like John's. I had a very good 420, but I actually worked a 12-hour shift. I did absolutely nothing special. Came home and smoked as much hash as I could until I couldn't remember the day.

2:09:41BubblemanThat's doable.

2:09:43TonyYeah. Have you tried the strawberry banana goo terps yet?

2:09:53BubblemanI want to say yes, but I think it was the strawberry mind warp that I actually was trying.

2:09:58TonyYeah, you didn't try the strawberry banana goo.

2:10:02BubblemanNo, I don't think I have either. And I've got like 30 plus terp flavors right now.

2:10:08TonySo the strawberry banana goo is a strawberry banana cross with this goo. Yeah. And it's testing above 27%. I say 27% because I don't want to tell you that it tested 30% or 31%. I lower the average, but it definitely tests very high. It's good.

2:10:31TonyYeah, it always produces really clear, clean, shatter-like hash rosin. It's really expensive. I haven't been able to do anything with it. But the guy that grows it, he was interested in doing one of these things because we ended up running some terpenes from it. And it's like, I mean, this is like 3,100, 2,800 a pound type of stuff. Wow.

2:10:59TonyThey get it all day long. It's just insane. So it takes the strawberry banana and it's crossed with this goo. And bro, it is like crazy good. This is the flower rosin from it. It always kind of like gets in this like nectary butter kind of look. Like live rosin. Yeah, but hats off to my buddy, Rolling Hill Farms, because him and his crew... They've got this strawberry banana goo that is pretty crazy.

2:11:37TonyI've had the strawberry banana many times and it's really, really good, but somehow crossing it with this goo takes it into a whole other direction. I'll have to get you some on the next round so Canada can try.

2:11:51BubblemanWell, we're never opposed to such a thing. We're never opposed to such a thing.

2:12:00TonyCanadians are so friendly. Fucking right, see? Sorry about that.

2:12:05SpeakerFucking right. Fucking right we are. I don't know.

2:12:09TonyWait until they get, like, digital smell technology. So, like, if I said, hey, world, I wanted you to smell this strawberry banana goo, and you always know, like, the ones that, like, gravitate to you. Like, we were talking about this. I always smoke the best shit I have first. And the three that I have is, I have this orange cheese turpe rosin that we were doing, then this strawberry, look at this Cuban, it's almost gone, the strawberry cookies that Cuban did, and this strawberry banana goo.

2:12:50TonyI wish we could hit a button. I could just be like, hey, ATN, check this out, and I could just hit a button and it would scan the smell. Like in a little square box that sits by the computer, I just put it in its little vacuum seal chamber, scan, you just hit the scan button, it scans the smell, and then it puts it out there like a file, and then everybody could download it, and you could have like some kind of, you know, diffuser that's attached to your computer that would mimic that digital smell because it releases it in the air.

2:13:22TonyThere's got to be that technology soon.

2:13:29SpeakerGlass. You need a replicator like what they used to have on Star Trek, right?

2:13:35TonyYeah, man. I mean, I remember in like the late 90s or early 2000, there was a group that had a digital smell diffuser that worked like that. So you could like be on the internet and you could smell different things or colognes and it was like, it was the first start of the technology and then it disappeared. So I don't know if like some big companies just like bought out the technology and was like, no.

2:14:00TonyWell, I mean, they do have machines like there's robotic peptide synthesizers, right?

2:14:12SpeakerSo a peptide is just a chain of amino acids, which is what we're made out of, right? Proteins are basically folded up chains of peptides, and peptides essentially are just amino acids. And so there's machines that have All the 20 amino acids in little, you know, either cartridges or little bottles of solution that you have to put into the machine, and then you could just program into the machine a peptide that's either natural or non-natural, and the machine will basically just go through and make it.

2:14:48SpeakerSo can you do that for scents and fragrances? I'll bet. It's just liquid, robotic liquid handling. I'm sure it could be done, but again, for everybody to have that at home, you'd have to have basically a little machine that's got all the little starting terpenes, and you'd have to have little bottles of terpenes in your terpene machine so it could read this code to understand what the fragrance that you're trying to dial into it is.

2:15:20TonyHere's a fragrance. I think there could be a mechanism where you upload. Certain things. Turn on your camera, Rob.

2:15:30SpeakerHuh? Sorry, Tom. I'm giving tech support to our guest. And I thought my mic was muted, but glad to know that you said, huh? Because that really cleared up that for me. We're going to have Rob Clark with us as soon as Rob...

2:15:57SpeakerI have to go push a button. I'll be right back.

2:16:01Wood ThrushI actually met with Rob about a month ago.

2:16:04BubblemanNice. Woody?

2:16:11Wood ThrushThere's an event in Eugene called the Science Pub, I believe. It's the last Tuesday of the month. It's a free to the community event and Rob was a guest speaker at it, and I got to meet him afterwards. And yeah, I definitely like the vibes he's given off.

2:16:36BubblemanYeah, Rob's good people for certain.

2:16:40SpeakerNot only is he just a plethora of knowledge, he is also a good human being on top of that, which I can't say all my heroes have been in the day, but I'm proud to have him as one, as well as his kindness and his generosity and his always willingness to share information and Also even question his own thoughts, you know. There's not many people who are that well educated who will still go, you know what, I may be wrong in that line of thinking.

2:17:06SpeakerLet's look at the data. Because we were talking yesterday how they were finding, you know, everyone has the XY chromosome and the X is always the dominant. And he was talking about in cannabis, it's not that the Y is the dominant. And so we were discussing yesterday if that's the case with the genome of cannabis, if the Y is dominant and larger than the X, then what is the Y chromosome carrying?

2:17:33SpeakerBecause the X chromosome being larger in humans is the case that, you know, it's carrying something else. So now we're wondering, now it has a whole set of new data to even be explored or thought about, is why is it the Y chromosome... Larger and what is actually attached. Sam, you have any insight on that in any way, shape, or form?

2:18:07SpeakerYou're unmuted now, Sam.

2:18:12SpeakerMaybe he's not in the room. Sam, did you hear me? Oh, well. C'est la vie. But still, it's one of those things in research that now has to be contemplated, and now we have to figure out, oh, okay, why does cannabis genetics do this? Why is it doing this? Because that's a very fascinating piece of science that, you know, someone's going to, you know, somebody may be watching here, may be like, hey, I'll be the one to actually run with that one.

2:18:39SpeakerSo, yeah, Rob was discussing that recent, Breakdown because I don't know if you guys saw the Phylos Project released that information this week. I posted it on Hass Church and want him to talk about that because that's rather exciting, at least where they're pointing people in a general direction.

2:19:00SpeakerVery cool.

2:19:02TonyGenetics with me. Yesterday at the event, a buddy of mine grows this golden goat. And, uh, this flower rising, he said tested, uh, 14% terpenes. That's what it looks like. Like I said, I wish I had, uh, some kind of smell, a way for you to smell it, but, um, people are getting good, man. It's interesting. I'm just bringing that up because it's like all my friends that are growers are, like, doing flower rising now.

2:19:39TonyAnd, uh, It's kind of cool to see the growers representing what their heart's into in a concentrate where they didn't have to do it. They did it safely, and they did it very quickly, and they did it mechanically. It's kind of interesting. It restores the sense of pride in your flowers.

2:20:02SpeakerI would have to say I would give a shout out to my friend, Kevvy Kev, old friend from West Virginia back in the day. He's out here growing. And he brought me up, he does, I think it's ITAL extracts, just really good stuff. And he brought me some resin the other day, and it was phenomenal at what people are taking the knowledge and are really pushing the boundaries.

2:20:24SpeakerYou know, it was, no, it wasn't as sexy as that there, Bubble Man, but it was quite delicious. I'm going to just give a shout out to Kevi Kepp. I was going to represent his shirt today, but my car got broken into and somebody stole This concentrates in the shirt that he gave me, so. Yeah, it happens. You know, we live in Oakland. It happens.

2:20:43TonyWow. Yeah. So, uh.

2:20:50SpeakerWhat lab tested that, Tony?

2:20:53TonyYou know, it was steep hill. But, I will tell you that I dabbed it yesterday and I've done the, uh, The lemon pie came from him that we did terpenes, the Long Valley Royal Kushes from him, and the, and the, we did a golden goat before, and we did something else with him. There's a couple of them, actually. One of the Jack Frost runs. He's a good friend of mine with High Noon, and I can tell you that sampling the golden goat flower rosin, I felt like I, I was hitting like this liquid.

2:21:36TonyIt was so terpy.

2:21:38BubblemanThe one I just held up was Bubba. For those that were asking what kind of rosin that was that I was just holding up, it was Bubba from West Coast Concentrate.

2:21:48Wood ThrushTony, I've got a question. What strain yields the best when pressing flowers?

2:21:56TonyOh, man. That depends on the genetics, the flowers, the way it was grown. The type of press you have, the moisture content in the flowers.

2:22:04Wood ThrushOkay, I guess I need to simplify that question a little bit. What strain makes the yields, I mean, there's got to be something I can do as far as planting my own garden. That's what I'm asking. I'm looking for something that will yield well for medicinal use, but also isn't too hard to grow.

2:22:26TonyI think flower rosin is a direct relation to The grower's ability to grow resin versus plant material. You want to start with good genetics, but if you're not a good grower or something's happened in the course where it's extra heat or you sprayed your plants, look at your trichome head as a grape. If you're growing little micro grapes on a vine, And if you have anything that changes in the course of that and you spray it or heat or droughts of water or different things, that little head's going to change.

2:23:00TonyAnd so if it's starting to grow early on and it droughts, it could stun its growth, if you will. Or if like it's really, really fat and plump and you just sprayed it with a whole bunch of whatever and you go to press it, there's no decontamination. You're not washing the resin. You're literally taking the flower, And if you were a good grower, and you were a good boy, and you did everything right, and you didn't taint your flowers, and you grew it perfectly, and you go to press them, you're going to get amazing results.

2:23:30TonyYou get 20% plus on yields. That's what they're saying.

2:23:36Wood ThrushThat's a decent yield from pretty much any strain.

2:23:40SpeakerIn my experience, Gorilla Glue 04 is the highest yielder of the ones. I've tested a few of them. Just hair straightener and parchment paper method, no high-press, high-temperature technology or high-pressure technology, just using a hair straightener and pressing. Gorilla Glue 04 seems to be really good when properly grown. I think I've said this. It's got to be properly grown. If it's not properly grown, It's not going to yield oil.

2:24:11SpeakerBut I think that other things that I'll comment on is that it appears as though the low THC or 1 to 1 THC CBD ones tend to be a little bit lower yielders. I don't know why. Dr. We're sure. We're sure.

2:24:28BubblemanDr. Woody, aren't you more inclined to finding a profile that works for the anxiety and the PTSD more so than one that produces a lot? Because those might not line up. Yeah.

2:24:41Wood ThrushI understand that and the reason why I'm going to school for horticulture is I want to learn how to actually take the pollen from the male plant and produce seeds that are true breeding and I would love to pick a skunk man's brain at some point in the future because cannabis is going to be my life until the day they put me in the ground so I need all the knowledge all of you have is definitely going to help me in my future endeavors.

2:25:16SpeakerSo thank you. I've always found, at least because here in the Bay Area, there's more microclimates here than any other place. So one thing we've always taught people, because people always ask, well, what grows the best? What does the best in my room? The best thing to do is take a multitude of varietals And grow them in your room and to see which ones respond properly because some genetics are going to respond like, hey, and some that you really want won't respond accordingly.

2:25:46SpeakerAnd that's just the reality of where you're growing and how you're growing it. And it's just going to come with trial and error. The basic thing I had when I was doing bonsai, I had a bonsai teacher tell me, it takes you seven years to master each tree and you're not going to Learn anything until you kill your first hundred. So as much knowledge as we'll give, we give, but it's all in just doing and just growing what you can, finding out what grows well where you grow, as well as to find out, because I've also found as a vet with PTSD and my other symptoms from my Gulf War syndrome is that what works for me may not work for you.

2:26:29SpeakerSo having diversity for your brothers and sisters in arms is is also worthwhile too. That's why, you know, I try to carry different kinds of, ranges of CBD because, you know, one to one ratio works for some people, ten to one works for some people, eight to one to some. So, yes, use that knowledge and to learn how to craft proper genetics that can graft, as you were talking about earlier, that whole spectrum.

2:26:58SpeakerI'm a big fan of the full spectrum of cannabis. That's why I mix my own I'll take all of them and put them together because I get some effects from one, some effects from the other. But it doesn't mean that in time once there's legitimate breeding that you can find those different characteristics and create that Luther Burbank kind of cannabis that actually has that whole encompassing without those anxieties and those types of triggers that Once the science can start to analyze all these different compounds to figure out what are those ones triggering those anxiety nerve centers in the brain, etc., that science is still out there for us to access and to learn.

2:27:44SpeakerFortunately, you've got Dr. Mark and other scientists out there that are looking at ways and sparking ideas. You've got future generations of doctors watching us currently now looking at how do I get there. You know, we're all just steps along the way. So find what works for you, but also keep in mind to find what works in your room, but also find what works for those around you.

2:28:10SpeakerAnd just because it works for you, again, it doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone. So we have to be humble in that sense because I've seen so many people get so excited about CBD because it worked for this one patient and this one condition, and then somebody with this exact same condition it doesn't work for. And I don't want to plant false hope, but we've seen also, each one of us here has seen its success stories.

2:28:36SpeakerSo my thing is just keep trying and, you know, it's trial and error. Just keep trying and learning and spread your knowledge as well.

2:28:44Wood ThrushI tried to grow Durban Poison and it doesn't do well inside. Or the cutting I got, it just, it got a little bitty and then it just stopped growing all together. I was like, well, next plant, that one didn't work. So... I've seen that already. I'm looking for base genetics really from people who have fruit breeding seeds and stuff like that.

2:29:10TonyLike I said, it also comes down to the grower. You have to know those particular plants like Durban poison is something that you don't want to overfeed. And you have to know how to feed that. So, like, if you have plants, like, that are soaking up, you could feed, water, feed, water. But in that particular plant, it's feed, water, water, water, feed, water, water, water. You know, it's a different type of pattern of feeding, different types of strains.

2:29:41TonySo, you know, you could have choked out the Durban early on and been like, oh, this thing sucks. But in reality, or it's the genetics, you've got to cut the Wasn't very good. But these are your grow room. And you say, okay, I'm going to grow this OG. I'm going to grow this Durban. I'm going to grow this hybrid. I'm going to grow four different types. That's going to get you a lot of lower yields in the first half a year to a year.

2:30:15TonyBecause you're going to be like, oh, this one did very good in my environment. And you're going to want to not grow the other ones, but the other ones are like training for you. So sometimes you put a plant, like, you know, you put an indicator plant, like a plant that does, that stresses out very easy based on temperature, sways from day to night. You could put one of those plants in your garden and that would be an indicator.

2:30:41TonyThat means that plant's saying, hey, um, I'm sensitive between the dynamic range of the daytime temperature and the nighttime temperatures spreading out to 20 degrees, and you may not have realized it, or you just didn't check your data or whatever's going on. If you didn't have a lot of gear, you can have a plant that indicates it. So if you get past 15 percent, 15 degrees from daytime to nighttime, certain plants will stress out and dwarf, or certain plants won't grow, or certain plants will hermaphrodite.

2:31:13TonyThank you so much for joining us.

2:31:33TonySo it could take you many, many, many years to learn how to feed a Durban poison versus an OG where you can grow it or train it or how you would train it. And once you do, you use them to your advantages and you use them in your environments to help you dial in the best varieties for those conditions. It could take you 10 years, man.

2:31:57Wood ThrushOh, definitely. I've got four years of college, so... It'll get me about halfway there anyway.

2:32:06TonySo I don't even need to do a bong rip because I'm going to do a full spectrum. Like you just said, Etienne, this is Golden Goat Flower Rosin.

2:32:20SpeakerGoing for the full cannabinoid spectrum there, eh?

2:32:22TonyYeah, this is Golden Goat Flower Rosin from High Noon, Strawberry Banana Goo from Rolling Hill, Cheese Bomb, Orange Cheese Bomb MTG, and then Cuban Strawberry Cookies. All in probably a good, this might be, this could be a .3. This might make me drool. You got some Bubble Man brand on there? Yeah, this is the orange, the orange, orange creamsicle turps with the cheese bomb, never touch freeze dried rosin.

2:32:58TonyPretty clean. Pretty greasy.

2:33:04BubblemanWell, we're ready to watch you drool, man.

2:33:06TonyAre you guys not going to take a hit?

2:33:08BubblemanOf course. I got my bong right here, bro. What are you smoking on? I don't know what I'm doing.

2:33:13TonyWhat are you smoking on?

2:33:15BubblemanMe? Okay, I'm going to smoke on, I'm going to smoke on, I'm going to grab a little piece of this Bubba Rosin.

2:33:25TonyLet's see that again. Jesus. So are they doing fresh frozen runs?

2:33:32BubblemanThey do hash and flour rosin, so it depends on... They're definitely doing fresh frozen for a lot of their bubble.

2:33:42TonyYeah.

2:33:42BubblemanAnd then I'm going to put in some of this green crack God as well.

2:33:47SpeakerSo, Tony, I took my mix, which is approximately 400 different varieties, and then I added a chip of each one of these. So, how do you like them apples? But I don't have any of your terps, though. I need some terps. I like them. This is sick looking glass. 7390, a couple of different mixes. All right, so we'll take a little of that. Take a little of this.

2:34:14TonyWhat have you got over there, D420?

2:34:21BubblemanI've got some of D420K's Fomal Dry Sift, too. I'm going to put a little of that on there, too, some of that. I'm unfortunately...

2:34:31Wood ThrushHey, Rob.

2:34:34TonyIt looks like Rob just joined us. You know what it was? Everybody started talking about all the hash that we had, and he was like, wait a minute, I've got to pop on and see what's going on.

2:34:46SpeakerWhat the hell's going on over there?

2:34:52TonyLooks like he's over at Todd's.

2:34:56BubblemanHe's muted. Let's see if I can unmute him. He's not showing muted, though.

2:35:02SpeakerNo, he's showing muted. Is he? Yeah, he was muted. Can you unmute him? Hello, Robert. What's going on? I'll be there. You're there. You're there. Why am I not? We hear you. Hi, Rob. ATN. Hope you're enjoying the hash. Oh, my God. This is ridiculous. Come on, Darren. Say it. Bong rip. Welcome, Rob. Hi, guys. How are you? We are well. How are you, sir? All right.

2:35:33BubblemanGet a little help on my new laptop from Techie Todd.

2:35:56SpeakerI woke up on, actually at midnight on April Fool's, my bootleg operating system went down. Serves me right. So anyway, now I'm getting back online for real, not Thai style. It's always nice to get that new laptop. Oh yeah, it is. God bless Costco.

2:36:16BubblemanGod bless hashish tabs.

2:36:19SpeakerThere you go. So Rob, I gave a brief introduction about the Phylos release this week. Would you like to officially state what went down? Yeah, pretty interesting. They've got some good publicity. The New York Times isn't bad. But yeah, they've released what's the first few hundred, over 500, 600 or 800 different samples that are from... Six different states, legal dispensary samples. So it's basically a sampling of what people commonly use in the states today.

2:36:58SpeakerAnd yeah, the way they portrayed it is fascinating. It's a three-dimensional view of the data set. So instead of having a family tree, which this doesn't really do very well because they're not direct lineages, they're not There's a lot of inbreeding and other odd things going on. So you're left with more of a cluster of relatedness, which they're calling the galaxy, this sort of way of looking at the data.

2:37:33SpeakerAnd it's a little more meaningful that way. And if it were a part of a family tree, it would be the very crown of the tree, the cloud of leaves at the top that make up... What we think of as the classical family tree sort of model. And it's far out looking. It's really good to play with. You can roll it around and see the different clusters.

2:37:55SpeakerThere's the Kush cluster and the Perps cluster. And basically the lines show relatedness between different accessions. You can change it around a bit as how it shows the data. It's fun. It's going to be much more fun when we tie land races and things into it and get some of the parents in there and not such reshuffling of the whole genome. This is kind of a confusing moment in it.

2:38:29SpeakerThe other questions I have about the data set too, I mean just looking at it, it puzzles me why things that are cuttings essentially Of the same mother, why don't they come out as the same data point? For instance, I mean, look at ACDC. They're all right next to each other. I mean, great. At least they're not on the other side of the galaxy. But why... I'll have to ask when I talk to these guys.

2:38:58SpeakerWhy doesn't it... Ah, there you go. Yeah. Why doesn't it come... I don't think anybody has an ACDC that was crossed with anything else necessarily that they called ACDC. Those are probably all the same cutting. I mean, it got around, you know. So shouldn't that appear in the data as closer to being at least multiplications of the same plant?

2:39:24BubblemanAnd if it wasn't, would that suggest genetic drift?

2:39:28SpeakerNo, it suggests to me that that's the amount of resolution possibly that the system has. I don't know. I'd have to really know if my assumptions are correct about what that data is derived from. But if somebody says something's a skunk that came out 20 years ago, or it wasn't a skunk and it got called a skunk, that's a lot of time for things to change. Through the natural evolution of the names, there's nothing else, without anybody trying to change anything on purpose even.

2:39:59SpeakerIt's like playing telephone, you know, that old party game. You talk around the table, you whisper each other's ears, and it doesn't come back to you the same thing that you said to the person who started it. So things just evolve. Misinformation evolves. If it's a cutting of something that relatively came on the market and into people's hands relatively recently without any particular time for it to change naturally or incentive to change that name, why don't they come out even closer together on the galaxy?

2:40:33SpeakerAnd maybe they're so close together it's just you can focus in so close on the galaxy that they look like they're separated. Maybe that's part of it too. It's such a far out thing to look at.

2:40:45TonyBesides the genetic drifting bubble, man, what that says to me is what if the plant grows in a consciousness, meaning if there's 5,000 of the plants of ACDC in a field, and you've handpicked plants side by side, spot checking that field every so often, and you saw different variations, maybe the plant's responding in a more of a

2:41:16SpeakerA global... Is there a term, environmental drift? That's what you're basically saying. You can have a whole field and if you tested every flower... No, no, no, no, no, no.

2:41:25TonyI'm not saying environmental drift.

2:41:27SpeakerYou guys are off base. We're talking DNA here. And you're talking phenotypic expression. So, you know, it's really not the same thing. Thank you for clarifying.

2:41:42TonyYeah, I'm talking not the environment changing it, but more as the plant Could the plant possibly, and that sounds far-fetched, but is the plant possibly creating a pattern? Let's say it has a DNA and it puts it out there and it creates a pattern of compounds and terpene profiles or whatever based on how that entire grid is growing on the side of a mountain versus that plant in point A 300 feet away where point B is.

2:42:15SpeakerTony, if they're clones, the DNA should be the same.

2:42:21TonySo you're getting data of a plant side by side that's different?

2:42:27SpeakerNo, I'm not. I'm saying if they're clones, the DNA should be the same.

2:42:34TonyYeah, but what I'm asking is, is a single plant living on its own expressing that DNA, or Is there any possibility that a hundred of them together work in a symbiotic expression of that one DNA that's inherently in all of them?

2:42:55SpeakerNot that I know of, but I'm willing to learn if there is some proof of this.

2:43:04SpeakerWhat you're talking about is epigenetic effects, or possibly could be. It's... There's the genes telling the plants what to do, and there's the environment telling the plants how to express what they're programd to do. And possibly growing in a group is an epigenetic effect on the genes that they all share as a common clone. Epigenetics are not really inherited, though, are they, Rob? No, not in most cases, at least.

2:43:33SpeakerNo, they're not. Not in the terms we're talking about now. This is genotype and phenotype, as you were saying. Can populations have effects on phenotype? Absolutely. Look at a hemp field compared to the same field grown for seed.

2:43:52TonyIf you had a test score of an ACDC of the same genetic clone grown in a field that were close by each other and showed your data and the DNA that they were You're saying the DNA is different in what you saw?

2:44:07SpeakerThe DNA is going to be the same. The expression of that DNA will vary. Exactly. Wherever that ACDC cutting was grown. I'm also assuming that those weren't samples from the same plant. They're samples from the same clone. They probably grew in however many ACDCs are on there, half a dozen or more. They probably grew in half a dozen or more different environments. But that shouldn't change the DNA, it seems to me.

2:44:33SpeakerSo what does explain it? And maybe they're not so distant. I mean, that chart is so far out. It is like exploring the universe. You can jump in there and get really close to one of the nodes, and everything else looks really far away, except things that are really close. They seem to have distance between them. So it's kind of like looking at a road map without having the little bar at the bottom that says a mile is as long as your thumbnail.

2:45:01SpeakerYou know, it's kind of, you know, without that, it's, with a scale, without the scale, it's kind of difficult to see what's going on in, just in real quantitative terms. Qualitatively, and just position-wise and stuff, it's far out. And it's really refreshing to me to see that things do clump together pretty much. Things of the same sort of names clump together. So that means the names weren't horribly changed, or that The science is horribly off, either one.

2:45:33SpeakerSo that's just nice to see as a guy who likes to look at data. I would like to see it more two-dimensional, though. It does get a little confusing not having a mile marker to see the amount of space between the strains, which when I was asking you last night, you know, it looks like there's two different points that, you know, are New York to L.A. apart, and How close are those related chemically is some of the things I was wondering.

2:46:00SpeakerAnd I think this chart looks cool, but I don't think it's very practical in understanding the relationships between the cultivars. Well, also, too, Todd, this is a public release beta system. There is actually a more involved system that... If you have the file house login, you can get into it. I'm hoping in the future that everybody who submitted a sample will be able to log into the more involved constellation versus the galaxy.

2:46:39SpeakerI totally understand then as they make the data public and they can put, you know, the understandings and the notations to what it is, you know, the people who have contributed samples have a sample number, but yet they don't know what it is because the sample numbers are not keyed into the Galaxy system. Right. And it's a very good chance that most of the things that You've collected and I've collected for them aren't in that data set at all.

2:47:12SpeakerThat's a data set that they've assembled quite a while ago, analytically, and they've been working on it as a data set for quite some time. So it's a test as much of the galaxy concept of organizing data and portraying it as it is a test of the data. It really is a work in progress. And I like it. It'll be a lot more practical when it's more diverse.

2:47:38SpeakerYou don't see Chinese hemp in there, and you don't see land races, or drug land races particularly, and you don't see a lot of things that are lacking as far as the ancestors of what is in the data set. It'll just get better and better as it goes on. But it's amazing to me, as closely related as all these things truly are, that you see clustering and separation and see this sort of data at all.

2:48:10SpeakerIt would be a real bummer if we didn't see that. Hey, Rob, did you talk to Chimera about what you were talking to me yesterday about the XY chromosome? Oh, yeah, it was just... I was looking a little bit at the XY inheritance in cannabis. We just refresh people on a little bit of basic botany here. Cannabis, we consider it to be naturally to be a dioecious plant.

2:48:41SpeakerThat means it has male flowers on one plant, female flowers on the other plant. Most plants, most flowers have male and female organs in the same flower. Dioecious plants are 10% or less of flowering plants. It arises all over the plant kingdom, but not in a very high percentage in total. Along with that comes wind pollination rather than insect pollination. They tend to be not linked entirely, but related.

2:49:18SpeakerOn top of that, you have XY inheritance, which is only in about 6% of plants.

2:49:26SpeakerAlso spread around a lot, you know, over the hundreds of white families there. XY inheritance is in 150 of them or something. But not very common overall, 6%, 7%, something like that. So in most XY sexual inheritance, which is in mammals and all mammals and lots of other organizms too, but certainly not all organizms, there's many ways of determining sex, the X chromosomes Are larger than the Y chromosome.

2:49:57SpeakerThe Y chromosome is usually a little tiny sort of a placeholder, especially in humans. Things like color blindness or male pattern baldness as it's called. It's expressed more in males because they're recessive genes in females. They're the carriers, but there's no opposing allele really on the Y chromosome, so they're just expressed. We're going to talk a little bit about the Y-chromosome. The Y-chromosome, as it turns out, both sex chromosomes in cannabis are larger than the autosomes, the chromosomes that don't determine sex, the majority of the other 18 chromosomes in cannabis.

2:50:52SpeakerThe other nine pairs. But the X is larger than the autosomes by far, and the Y is either slightly larger or slightly smaller than the X, I forget. But it's interesting that they're blown out of proportion of size to begin with, and that the Y chromosome is not just little dot of DNA that doesn't have anything except... Nonsense information. The human, for instance, they can use, I don't think you can do this with cannabis, but with humans they use the Y chromosome to be able to determine how far back in our past there was a mutation.

2:51:34SpeakerAnd then we see in different gene pools of humans whether they share these mutations or not. And if they do, that means they were related From a time when that mutation appeared. Now, the only way they could do time in humans is that they use Y male chromosome DNA. There isn't a whole lot of it, but what's there doesn't carry very many genes. It doesn't carry information that is selected for by the environment, or in the case of plants, by humans as well.

2:52:09SpeakerNot nonsense DNA, but it's more just, say, placeholder DNA. They're introns that don't have any real message to them or not much. So in humans, those mutations are random. They just happen, okay? And they happen, random mutations happen at a relatively known frequency, okay? So when they see these mutations, they can get a time estimate onto it. Well, cannabis probably wouldn't work at all. I don't even know if it's been tried in plants, but...

2:52:38SpeakerThe Y chromosome in cannabis is huge. Now, it's just a question, but is there information in this giant Y chromosome? And if there is, what's the evolutionary effect of us basically making males Y chromosomes optional?

2:52:59SpeakerJust a question. But this is fascinating to me. I hope some genetics guys weigh in. Mark is just smiling away in the middle here. But yeah, it's... It's like... Yeah. Are we supposed to have it or what? I don't know. Just cut it out and see if it still works.

2:53:23SpeakerBut there's got to be some evolutionary explanation, if not a causative factor. Some kind of explanation for why it ended up that way. I think that's just fabulous. We just don't understand it. There's so much we don't understand. Well, maybe Ryan does, though.

2:53:43BubblemanHey, welcome, Chimera.

2:53:48BubblemanOh, I can't hear him. He's muted. Hi, guys. He's not muted. That's weird.

2:53:55SpeakerI can't hear you.

2:54:00BubblemanHuh. You know, every time I've ever seen that happen, you pretty much got to close your browser, like completely close it, like auto force close it. Yeah. Come back real quick.

2:54:14SpeakerClose that shit up. And he's got something to say, too, so we need to... Yeah, I knew he did.

2:54:19BubblemanYou know, I was like, he had been so quiet, and I bet he was even trying to talk during the times that I thought he was quiet.

2:54:26SpeakerIt's really no problem, because I pretty much know everything that Chimera knows.

2:54:36SpeakerPerfect. I hope that the alternative is not true, though, Sam. Does he know everything that you know? Probably all the good stuff.

2:54:48BubblemanNot all the good stuff.

2:54:55BubblemanWell, we're just having a quick little break.

2:54:57SpeakerSo what is next for Philos, Rob, since that was just released by New York Times? What's the next release or next step?

2:55:10SpeakerYou're muted. I don't really know would be the fair answer to that, but what I hope to see them do is to use more of the land-raised samples and unique bits of DNA that have been supplied to them recently and see how those fit into a bigger picture. As I've been saying, this is all current release stuff. It's not anything that's historically different. Hey, there's Chimera again.

2:55:41SpeakerLet's try again. Hey, Paul. Good to hear you. You speak. So obviously I missed the thread that you guys were talking about, but I'll just jump in on that Y chromosome topic. We actually know more about the Y chromosome than I think a lot of people think. This is where the male-associated DNA sequences, or the MADCs... Thank you for watching.

2:56:27SpeakerAnd it seems that the, so the MADC is found on the Y chromosome, but it seems that the Y chromosome actually has what's called a pseudo-autosomal region. So the autosomes are the chromosomes that aren't the sex chromosomes. I guess that's the definition. So in humans, pairs 1 to 22 and pair 23, as Rob is saying, is the sex chromosomes. And in humans, they're smaller. But in cannabis, there's 10 pairs

2:56:56SpeakerSo pairs one to nine are the autosomes and the sex chromosomes are the tenth pair, which in cannabis are an X and a Y. And if you have an X and a Y, then the plant is a male, and that's pretty much 50% of the population inherits that condition in regular seeds.

2:57:16SpeakerBut the X and the Y, because they have this what's called a pseudo-autosomal region, it means there's... You can think of it as two pieces of DNA that actually cross over and they can exchange little bits of DNA. And it seems to indicate that at one point in time the Y chromosome was actually an X chromosome. And the sequence information seems to show that. So it seems that the Y chromosome evolved out of the X chromosome.

2:57:47SpeakerNow why that happened... It's hard to say, but one thing that they do know when they've been sequencing out these plants is that those MADC sequences, or the male-associated DNA sequences, seem to be what are called retrotransposons, or jumping genes. Some of you might have heard of these things. They're little pieces of DNA that actually jumps around in the genome, and they evolve from Thank you for watching.

2:58:37SpeakerStretched out the X chromosome so much that it's now, it takes on a different shape that we call the Y. But it seems to me that they both evolved from the same place.

2:58:50SpeakerSo.

2:58:53SpeakerThat's interesting. What, what, what, what, what have been associated with these Mad C sequences? I mean, what male-associated traits? Just their morphology or other things? Just their existence, just males' existence. All male traits, yeah, their maleness. And so you were talking before about our, you know, in humans, there's very little information on that Y chromosome, right? So we don't know what the... The situation was with cannabis.

2:59:32SpeakerThere's a debate in the scientific community about what's called, whether it's an XY system, which means essentially, you know, there's an X and Y chromosome condition leads to being a male plant. Is it actually a Y trigger? Is the trigger on the Y? Or is it something about the X to autosome balance? So it's like maybe that for, you know, one X chromosome to 20

3:00:03SpeakerAutosomes, or 18 autosomes as you're saying, is what causes the condition. So it's really, is the trigger on the why or not on the why? And we don't, I guess we just don't have enough information on what the genes mean on the chromosomes in cannabis yet. But I think what probably happened is when the males evolved, when that Y chromosome thing happened where that, You know, retrotransposon kind of hijacked the Y chromosome.

3:00:34SpeakerThat created the occurrence of male plants. So how did cannabis, how did it reproduce before that point in time? Right? And which probably means that it was through intersex or through plants that were slightly what we call hermaphroditic. Right? Or even perfect.

3:00:59SpeakerTransgender Plants. Yeah, I don't know about perfect flowers, though, because... I'm not saying so either, I'm just saying perhaps. Yeah, a perfect flower, for those that don't know, is essentially a flower that has male and female parts on the same flower. And that's actually really uncommon in cannabis. No, it's very rare with cannabis, it's true. Yeah, you might see male and female flowers mixed together, it's a little more common.

3:01:29SpeakerThank you for watching.

3:01:50SpeakerCan I ask guys, how closely do humans and does cannabis and humans breed in similarities? I read once that it didn't. I was wondering if you guys could elaborate on that. Yeah, well, when that whole thing happened and the Y chromosome was jacked and these males popped up, that really changed the breeding style a lot, I think. So that really led to what's called, you know, cannabis and humans are what's called obligate outcrossers.

3:02:18SpeakerSo they... They're obliged to outcross to a different individual to make seed. I mean, you know, none of us on the panel here can have a child on our own. Obviously, you have to have a different individual that is present. And so what that does is it creates a situation where you're always crossing to other, right? So, for example, true breeding or these recessive genes are less likely to come up.

3:02:49SpeakerTo be seen, but they do happen when you sell, right? Tony asked that many years ago, or not many episodes ago, about what's the weirdest thing I ever saw when inbreeding, and I actually saw a photo just recently of someone that had grown out an S1 line from the Sweet Skunk, and it had, I think I showed it to Sam online, it had pistols that had, that they split on the ends.

3:03:15SpeakerThey looked like little split hairs on the end of the pistols. Yeah, that was quite Frankenstein-y. Yeah. But again, just a weird trait that comes through selfing, right? And in plants, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but in humans, a lot of those weird little traits, they end up being, you know, well, lethal. So that's why we don't inbreed. I mean, you know, it's not such a social taboo about inbreeding humans.

3:03:42SpeakerThat's probably a learned behavior that we went through. Like, at one point in time, People did inbreed and they realized, oh wow, look at all these weird genetic traits that are popping out, or sicknesses. Don't do that. With cannabis, when we did three or four generations, it became all but unusable. I mean, it was really, really, really bad. It was functionally sterile and all kinds of problems.

3:04:10SpeakerIt was bad. Vigorless, yeah, it was, we never did it to the fifth generation, did we, Rob?

3:04:24SpeakerI'm not sure what that means, but I don't ever, I remember doing it to the fourth generation, and it was, you know, none of the plants dropped pollen. You had to get a Q-tip and get into them and get a tiny bit if you were lucky. Yeah. But again, that's because it's such an unnatural breeding scheme to undergo in that type of plant that is evolved to just freely shed genetic material and it recombines with, you know, with the genetic material of other plants.

3:04:58SpeakerAnd so that's part of the reason for the variation. But it also is, it probably provides a lot of elasticity for us to go in and tinker with in the meantime. You know, if you're careful about, you know,

3:05:15SpeakerOr did El Sole just do populations S5?

3:05:24SpeakerNo, they did brother to sister mating, but with no selection. Okay, it wasn't S5. Yeah, that was S5. Probably as far as they could take it before they went out to the point where they weren't going to get any more generations. No wonder, yeah. You had to cross them at the end there. Exactly, it's the same thing. But again, they were doing that for a mapping study, and those are the type of populations that would be really helpful for the Phylos project.

3:05:53SpeakerYou know, I'm kind of bummed. Wouldn't selfing even be more valuable than what they did? Well, they both, yeah, I mean, sure, selfing is a quicker route to get there, right? It's a quicker path to the same destination. Selfing is just the most severe form of inbreeding, right?

3:06:11Wood ThrushYes, correct. What happens if you just let it go natural?

3:06:16SpeakerWell, it depends if you're talking about, again, because when you self a clone, if it's a female plant, then you only get females that come out of it, and then at that point in time, that population has a hard time being left to go natural. Right.

3:06:29Wood ThrushIf you start from seed, say you started with a thousand seeds, and you let them all grow out, the females and the males, you let them stay in the field together, You let them grow out, you let them go all the way until the plant itself died, and then you just harvested those seeds. You planted those seeds and did the same thing. What happens after four or five generations of doing that?

3:06:49SpeakerIt depends on how diverse the population was that you started with.

3:06:53Wood ThrushThe more seeds, the better, right?

3:06:56SpeakerSorry?

3:06:57Wood ThrushThe more seeds you start with, the better, right?

3:07:00SpeakerYeah, but if they're open pollinating, what happens is the genetics don't change from generation to generation. They just shuffle. The bigger your population, the more likely it is that it's just a true shuffle, right? So when you start getting into small populations, you get these abnormal shuffles where you might be able to see some patterns or variation actually select on some of the traits that we're talking about.

3:07:24SpeakerAnd not only that, without the hand of man to maintain a drug variety, it will deteriorate and become leafier, less resinous, etc., etc.

3:07:35Wood ThrushSo the feral stuff I found that In Kentucky in 1990 would have been something that had gotten out, the seeds reproduced themselves, and I found it out in the woods.

3:07:51SpeakerI can't say what it escaped from, but there was a lot of hemp cultivation in Kentucky pre-1937. True. So I really can't say what it is. If you can look at it, all you have to do is GC it, and you can tell if it's got more THC or more CBD. Then that lets you know whether it's escaped from a drug population or a hemp population.

3:08:21Wood ThrushAre the seeds large or small? I'm pretty sure they're broadly, it's a broadly variety. I've grown it out a couple times. It does weird things. One time the plant grew straight up. And had the flowers literally coming off the main stem, no side branching at all. So I was like, okay, that's weird. And then there's like three or four other weird genetic traits. So I'm thinking that it's been growing feral by itself for generations.

3:08:53Wood ThrushCool. Interesting. The seeds are large or small seeds? They're what I would say large. I've never really seen a small, what I would consider a small cannabis seed.

3:09:05SpeakerWhat you can do is weigh them and see how many there are to the gram. Or count hundreds and weigh that either way. Does it get you high?

3:09:15Wood ThrushOh yeah.

3:09:17SpeakerI'd say it's the THC variety. I suspect so. I'll get some of the flowers tested and I'll let you guys know. Does it smell like feral hemp particularly? No. I just saw some interesting... I'm just getting some seeds from... Nebraska feral seed. And this person had grown it a number of years just selecting nice plants, but not trying to do anything with the cannabinoid ratios. It's very high in CBD and very low in THC, but it came out of a Nebraska ditch, you know, 10 years ago.

3:10:02SpeakerI was nothing to do with Manchurian than I'm aware of. This is from Lakota to Native Americans. That's what was growing there. A lot of the feral hemp that we found growing out through the Nebraska area there was a Manchurian strip. Interesting. You got any history on how Manchurian ended up there? Something published? Dr. Brooks Kelly, I do believe, and he did something regarding that out of Nebraska.

3:10:30SpeakerThat's where the seeds came from, it was Brooks actually, so interesting. Yeah, he didn't mention anything about that. What it looks like to me, it has tiny, tiny dark seeds. And what it really looks like is something from Kazakh stone. You know, it's very narrow leafed, I'm sure, from what I'm just talking about. And it's very small seeds, not as small as wild seeds, but much more like wild seeds than like anything...

3:11:01SpeakerCultivated for any reason. And some of them even have the funny little caruncle, it was called back in the day, the little excision layer at the bottom of the seed. They're all very tiny excision layers anyway, and some of them even have that little flange at the bottom. So it's interesting. I mean, if all this is feral sativa, European hemp, whether it's gone Across the Atlantic to Nebraska or whether it's gone to Central Asia, it could all look very similar.

3:11:37SpeakerNow what Woodthresh is talking about is something that sounds completely different. Larger seeds and broader leaves and not high CBD, low THC and something different. Maybe something escaped from damn, damn hippies back in the 60s. More than likely.

3:12:00BubblemanWell, I said the same thing at the same time, Woody, but I had my mic muted and I heard your voice, but I like moved my lips and said it. I was like, that was weird.

3:12:13SpeakerYeah, trippy.

3:12:16BubblemanWell, that's the conversation we're having here today.

3:12:18SpeakerWhat's that, Etienne? I said, Jinx, you owe each other a bong hit.

3:12:23BubblemanYes, I always owe bong rips. I owe everyone a bong rip. If you see me on the street, please make sure you stop me to get your free bong rip, everyone in the whole world that's watching right now.

3:12:36BubblemanIn fact, if you see anyone on the panel, make sure you stop them and say, hey, I see that you're with your family and everything, but do you think it's cool if you just set up your dab rig and we just do a quick dab? I've never tried a terp dip, and I just... I hear your baby's crying. I understand your kids don't look happy and your wife seems to be a bit pissed off, but just a small dab.

3:12:55BubblemanIt would mean the world to me.

3:12:58SpeakerLook, Sam is dancing.

3:13:00BubblemanSam is dancing.

3:13:03SpeakerIt's just the excitement of thinking of all the people who are going to be stopping me.

3:13:11BubblemanWelcome back, Todd, Double Todd.

3:13:15SpeakerATN, what was that thing? It was from Cut? The two videos you showed me last night, they were great. The old people smoking, old ladies smoking. Oh, it was the fathers giving advice on dabs and grandmothers doing pot for the first time. Yeah. Those are classic. I just noted those videos, which are hilarious.

3:13:35BubblemanIt's true. Those are classics.

3:13:39SpeakerI just saw the dads giving advice doing dabs the other day. Has that been out of it?

3:13:46BubblemanWhat's that?

3:13:47SpeakerThe dads doing dabs, giving advice.

3:13:51BubblemanYeah, I just saw that. I just saw that as well. I saw the grandmas doing dabs a while ago and that was a pretty good classic. I like that they were all like eating chips and nachos like 20 minutes after they were doing dabs. I also saw the one where grandmas do like lean, which was kind of not as enjoyable as the pot one. They were like drinking that like weird cough medicine syrupy drink.

3:14:14BubblemanGet all waxed out shit.

3:14:16Wood ThrushDoesn't this stuff have codeine in it?

3:14:18BubblemanYeah, exactly.

3:14:18SpeakerYeah, I don't get that, man. I don't get that lean shit. I don't get it either.

3:14:25BubblemanBut the pot ones were pretty cool. They were pretty funny.

3:14:31SpeakerRob, we can't hear you. You're on mute. So what's lean? Dextromethorphan? Is that the...

3:14:37BubblemanYes, you called it. That's exactly what it is.

3:14:39SpeakerDextromethorphan with codeine? I think codeine's kind of out of it these days. They restrict that stuff too much, but DXM is so horrific that if you get blasted enough on it, you're semi-psychedelic, and it's in all of them.

3:14:54Wood ThrushWhen we were in the Army, you go in with an upper respiratory infection, and they hand you a bottle of Robitussin with codeine in it for years.

3:15:02BubblemanSome Tussin. That's what Chris Rock's mom's used for everything. Just rub a little Tussin on that. It'll be fine. That stuff is terrible.

3:15:10SpeakerYeah, the military is with the Tussin as well as the Motrin 800s. I mean, they'll just throw those to you like M&Ms.

3:15:17Wood ThrushI was in Iraq and they put me on Ambien because I couldn't sleep. Ten milligrams off the bat. They didn't even start off slow. They just said, here, get some sleep.

3:15:28Wood ThrushIt works, too. The problem is you started using it really quick. Yeah. You just want to get to sleep faster and faster and faster and the next thing you know you're doing all kinds of things you swore you never would.

3:15:41SpeakerDamn.

3:15:42Wood ThrushCannabis all the way.

3:15:43SpeakerYeah, it's a slippery slope. Cannabis too, that's worth a bong hit. Bong rip.

3:15:50BubblemanAlways worth a bong rip. Broken arm? Put some tussin on it. Exactly. These guys know. They've listened to Chris Rock. Classic shit.

3:16:01BubblemanClassic shit.

3:16:06BubblemanYeah, Elixir says Ambien made his grandma have delusions of water running down the walls and shadows turning into burglars. Stay away from that shit.

3:16:17BubblemanI don't have any experience with these pharmaceutical drugs. I've always just had like a very strong spider sense that has urged me to not take them. To stay away from them as best as I can. And even when I... Most recently, I guess a few years back, broke my collarbone very badly. Like it disengaged and moved quite a bit. It was wicked painful. And the girl was like, you need painkillers.

3:16:41BubblemanAnd I'm like, yeah, I don't really do painkillers. And she's like, no, you don't understand. Like you're in shock right now. You're going to be in so much pain. You need to take painkillers. And I didn't need to take painkillers.

3:16:53SpeakerMy mom was a hypochondriac and developed actual symptoms from all the drugs that the doctors put her on in the end. Now, yeah, that's the reality. So that's why for myself, I was always like, eh. I mean, I dealt with the morphine and all the other shit they gave me when I was going through my shit, but in the end, I was always, you know, it got me through, but then I had to get off of it and get away from it because that was always my example.

3:17:19SpeakerI don't want to end up with the actual worst side effects from Something that she never had, but now has to deal with every single day. So, we all have our own examples, right? Absolutely.

3:17:34BubblemanAbsolutely. Another second dog to make an appearance on Hash Church. Earlier, Woody had his dog on there. I meant to say, hello, pup, but I guess we got into some deep conversation and it moved on. Nice. What's that, Woody?

3:17:53Wood ThrushShe is the one thing that's been with me through all of this. I got her pretty soon after I was getting into some of the heavier stuff, and she got me through it. It's awesome. Animals are an essential part of healing.

3:18:09BubblemanAnd they also have endocannabinoid systems and can benefit from phytocannabinoids as well as essential amino acids.

3:18:16Wood ThrushCan we get with some veterinarians and find out actual good dosage? Angel accidentally ate some of my coconut oil one night, and she slept for a while.

3:18:28TonyThey metabolize much faster.

3:18:34Wood ThrushThey snap out. It's amazing. Literally, as soon as she couldn't feel it anymore, it was gone. She was back to being what she always is, and I was like, that's insane. And how long was that? It was about 24 hours.

3:18:49TonyShe got a good day. Did your dog get locked up, like jaw lock up and stuff?

3:18:54Wood ThrushNo, she was just completely like relaxed and just slept. Yeah, she didn't get any kind of like, she didn't get too much, it just knocked her out.

3:19:06SpeakerYeah, I've known a dog to eat 24 brownies and was up for three days. So you got to be careful on what the food is, much less, you know, at least it was only coconut oil and a little bit, you know. But I've known people to have adverse reactions and then they take their dogs to the vet and the vet's like, that we can do, they just got to ride it out, you know.

3:19:28TonyYeah, you can give them, if you catch them when they eat it right away, you can tablespoons of hydrogen peroxide, force feed it hydrogen peroxide and it'll actually regurgitate any of the chocolate or brownie or like the edible. It's a safe, easy way to do it. I've experienced it with my dog in the past. She ate 600 milligrams and she's 10 pounds. She's locked up. What did you do?

3:19:55SpeakerPut it in a dropper? How did you administer it?

3:19:58TonyOh, I did. Give me the hydrogen peroxide? Yes. Open the mouth with a spoon and put it right into her mouth. And then close her mouth and then make her swallow.

3:20:09Wood ThrushAngel's about 50 pounds. I don't want to do that.

3:20:13SpeakerAlso be careful what strength hydrogen peroxide you're using. We should put that caveat in there.

3:20:18Wood ThrushStuff in the brown bottle from the drugstore.

3:20:22SpeakerYeah, but don't be using the stuff from your grow store because it's... Right. You can also use charcoal. And you know what else is really good too? It's more for diarrhea in dogs, but that's pumpkin. Like you keep a can of pumpkin around.

3:20:38BubblemanReally? And I just eat the pumpkin?

3:20:40TonyI give my dog pumpkin on a daily as a supplement.

3:20:46SpeakerYeah, it's fibrous and it sucks the water up, so we had a vet tell us that at one point in time. But yeah, definitely charcoal is good. It absorbs cannabinoids. It's pretty sticky stuff.

3:20:57Wood ThrushWell, just like we try to keep our medicine out of the hands of children, we should also try to keep it from getting too much in our pets as well.

3:21:06SpeakerNobody wants to do that. It just happens when the dogs get in it.

3:21:11Wood ThrushI just thought I should let people know that we're not doing this on purpose.

3:21:14BubblemanAbsolutely not. With dogs, you'd be probably more worried about them getting large doses of chocolate in these edibles than the actual milligrams of THC. Definitely. Yeah.

3:21:25TonyWell, you know, you want to keep it low, very low.

3:21:28Wood ThrushThe chocolate that they're selling at the store is mostly refined sugar anyway.

3:21:35SpeakerI've been given a dog at our house of 15, maybe 15 years old next month. He's a black lab, German Shepherd cross probably. Nobody really does. He's a mutt. But Murphy's just old, you know. He's stiff. He doesn't seem to get around all that well anymore. But he's in control. He's just driving everybody nuts, getting up, needing to do things all the time. So I started giving him, almost three weeks ago, about 15 milligrams of CBD in coconut oil twice a day, just in his food twice a day.

3:22:17SpeakerAnd he seems to be a little lighter in his step, is what I'd say. And he's less troublesome at night. He doesn't want to go out as often, and he comes back in quicker. He's just, yeah, he's getting to the dog bowl first instead of the eight-year-old, totally food-driven chocolate lab who's almost always there first. Now Murphy's beating him to feeding time. Just, yeah, that's the only group that I've seen.

3:22:45BubblemanIt's a positive dog patient story. We should have him on Hash Church, Rob. We'll get him his own box and his own computer so he can sit on the panel.

3:22:55SpeakerAwesome. This is a good product. That's the nice thing about Colorado, and I don't know if people watching internationally really get it, but Colorado is one of the states that has adult use, which they call recreational, and they also have their medicinal program that started it all off. And it's interesting to see how regulation comes in and how people interpret regulations, but they have a huge industry.

3:23:22SpeakerThey're growing CBD because...

3:23:29SpeakerBasically hemp is determined as legally as being cannabis that's below 0.3% THC. Doesn't say anything about how much CBD can be in it. So in Europe they insist every three times as much CBD as THC, but as you know it's not particularly regulated, so there they're growing Harlequin, ACDC, these kind of varieties that are Really just drug varieties, Afghan drug varieties with an upside down profile, way more CBD than THC instead of the other way around.

3:24:00SpeakerAnd they have all these products, hence my dog, my friend's dog being able to be experimented on. But yeah, they have a lot of these things available. And they're not supposed to ship from over state lines. None of those cannabis products are supposed to be shipped over state lines. But nobody's caring about it. We'll see a lot of veterinary products coming up here, you know, widespread out there.

3:24:29BubblemanThat's a big potential industry there for certain. Yeah, yeah.

3:24:39BubblemanWell, we've been at it for a solid three and a half hours. Still got about 800 people watching live and the chat's going off. People are enjoying the conversation. I think starting it off today with a nice sort of strong foundation with the patient story, with Woody telling his story. You know, it always gets a shake in our heads when we hear these patient stories because they're simultaneously...

3:25:03BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

3:25:30BubblemanThat is positive and takes away suicidal thoughts and removes negative memories and stimulates appetite and stimulates good sleep. It's just sort of the main thing that we really love the foundation of Hash Church is knowing that people are using it for all of these wonderful reasons. And I'm a proponent of using it for recreational reasons. I think that there's As many values to be found in there if we are actually able to look at them and study them.

3:26:01BubblemanIt's almost a preventative of needing to use cannabis as a medicine is to use cannabis prior as a recreational.

3:26:09Wood ThrushWhat if they call it social instead of recreational? I think that's a better term.

3:26:14SpeakerYeah, I mean, the high just means that the medicine is working. I mean, isn't all cannabis use medical? Elevated. The high is just the side effect that we feel that makes us know that, yeah.

3:26:26Wood ThrushRight, so there's social use.

3:26:29SpeakerI say adult use. I mean, not to be rude, a 14-year-old kid can have recreational use. I know I did it. But adult use is there's so many items that we have. Cars are adult use. Guns are adult use. You know, we don't. You know, we don't totally cleanse the 7-Eleven of porn and alcohol and cigarettes and gasoline and lighters because they're all adult use items.

3:26:54BubblemanTrue enough. They just make sure that you're an adult when you're buying it.

3:27:03BubblemanSeems like as good a way as any. Never stop growing.

3:27:05SpeakerI want to show you guys something on terpene as I'm going to... If you want to check something out here on my screen, I can't tell again. Damn. So this is from the presentation that Mark Lewis did at CanMed at Harvard last week or the week before. And this is some of the work that they're doing down at Napro. Is there any way you can make that any bigger or is that as big?

3:27:43SpeakerLet me see.

3:27:54SpeakerCan you see that now? It's better. You can't make out the names on the lefts of the charts, but we can see the graphs. I can tell you what they are. So they're color-coded by... These are actually terpenes that are color-coded. It just helps in the visual presentation. So terpenylene is at the top in red, but they're pretty intuitive. Like limonene is yellow, right, for lemons, limes.

3:28:18SpeakerPinenes are green. You have Fenchol is that kind of turquoise color, and then you have Terpinol, Beta-Caryophyllene, Linalool is purple, Beta-Caryophyllene is blue, and Myrcene is purple or maroon. Are these concentrates or are these of flour? No, these are from flour. So that's the GCFID of flour. Now it doesn't have all the terpenes. NAPRO is only looking at, I think, 17 of them, which are the ones that are really known to have pharmacological actions in the body.

3:28:56SpeakerSo it's actually what dictates the entourage. So a lot of these other ones, like we were looking at last week, like Guayol and Valenstein are not in these analysis. But you can see that all these ones have a similar pattern, right?

3:29:17SpeakerThey all have plus or minus the same terpenes in them. Okay? Now, is this a cross-range of genetics, or is this just one representative sample that we know for sure, or do we know for sure these genetics are really what they say they are? No, these are really what they say they are. These were collected off the hill and grown in a stable.

3:29:39TonyNo, you have a variety called Classic Crypto. That's known. And classic perps in old Amsterdam?

3:29:49SpeakerYeah, like crypto and perps, the classic was a designation that they gave them for a certain quality of flour. But yeah, crypto and perps, I mean, you can go and check out the perps, and not only the perps that look like this one, but granddaddy perps and some of the other ones that are around California also have that same print, that same phytoprint or that same fingerprint to them.

3:30:12SpeakerMm-hmm. Not all blue dreams have this one. This is the most common one, though, with the high myrcene. The one that we looked at last week was actually a high pinene plant, and that's the other phenotype of blue dream that's found in California.

3:30:29SpeakerBut you can see how these things, like, you know, this type of thing, if both plants are named blue dream, that could lead to two dots on the Phyllos galaxy. But anyway, this is one flavor class. You can see that the top terpenes are, or at least the suite of terpenes are the same in each, so across the top line and along the bottom line, right? Like along the top line, they're each high limonene, then beta-carotene, and then myrcene, right?

3:31:00SpeakerAnd on the bottom, they're pinene and myrcene. Anyway, I just wanted to show you that because it looks like it's...

3:31:11SpeakerHere's the one I really wanted to show you.

3:31:16SpeakerSo these are the more general flavor class that Napro has come up with that seems to, all plants kind of seem to fit into one of these fingerprints, okay? So these are like the archetype prints.

3:31:33SpeakerRight, you can see you have like a high limonene class or a high terpenylene class. Or high beta-caryophyllene class.

3:31:44SpeakerAnd everything that you're going to look at pretty much falls into one of these classes.

3:31:52SpeakerAnd this is based on a survey of like many, many samples, like hundreds of samples being run from California dispensaries and then compared with each other. So beta-caryophyllene are like the chemdogs and the cushes and all that stuff is in the beta-caryophyllene dominant class, whereas things like we looked at last week like AFGU is in the myrcene dominant class. Hey Ryan, what are some of these percentages?

3:32:21SpeakerSo like when we look at the terpenylene one on the top, what's the percentage of terpenylene there?

3:32:29SpeakerWell, this is in milligrams. I have to see. Well, go ahead. Just give me the number. Was it milligrams per gram or 1.2%? Yeah, 1.2% in that sample. 1.2%.

3:32:40TonyYou've got to remember, flowers average 1% to 3% terpene. So that's not off. They're showing 1% with all the nuances like that.

3:32:56SpeakerThis is... I didn't see the presentation, but I downloaded this back, and I'll link up it on the left. He's actually done some really incredible work here on all of this stuff, from inputs to standard deviations, what's found in populations, all that kind of shit. But here, this is the one.

3:33:29SpeakerSo this is averages taken across these standardized cultivation conditions, and you can see that they measure total cannabinoids and total terpenes also, right? And you can see across all these cultivars that it changes based on the gardening practices, right? Which we know it's just a science that backs it up. As it should, as it should, right? Yeah. But, Mark, I really suggest that you check this out.

3:34:01SpeakerThis is what I was telling you about. Yeah, no, this is really cool. Can you post the link? Is that the link that you posted? Yeah. Okay, cool, yeah. It's in there. His name's Mark Lewis, and their company name is Napro Research. But this is all their work, and the presentation that was given at CanMed. But it's really impressive. It's really, really impressive work.

3:34:32SpeakerLooks great. Thanks for sharing, man. Yeah, no worries. It's really interesting stuff because it gets to the heart of all these questions that we've been asking, like are these fingerprints stable? You know, what are the, like you were asking last week, Mark, what are the standard deviation line, what are the error bars, all that kind of stuff, and they do all this stuff. So it's going to be a really impressive paper when they present it.

3:34:56SpeakerAnd they're just an R&D company? Out of California, yeah. I think they actually have clients all over the states. Cool. I'll have to look them up.

3:35:09BubblemanWell, you can see people are getting pretty serious about this and starting to do some pretty incredible gatherings of information and knowledge. That looked pretty stellar.

3:35:20SpeakerYeah, well, with the terpene classes that we were looking at there, that one group, you actually, when you start screening enough of these plants, you realize that they all start to fall in They're not identical. The fingerprints aren't identical, but there's definite shapes or groupings that are all kind of the same. And yeah, it's really a different way to look at the plant as opposed to, you know, names.

3:35:47SpeakerAt some point in time, all the names become meaningless when you see that they have, it's like, oh, this is just like one of these types, you know. I'm sure there are subtle differences in the terpenes, but Well, one of the things that was difficult about the Cane Labs research from Colorado was that they did try to overlay cannabinoid and terpene data over their genome data set.

3:36:19SpeakerAnd in my mind, it more confused things than it did resolve things. But that's partly because they throw the terpenes in there without Interpreting the terpenes, if you took one of those charts you passed over in there was a portrayal of the groupings of these in two dimensions. It starts to look like a family tree, you know, and you have your limonene rich group and these other ones, and some outliers, but then it starts to look like a systematic organization of some sort, which you could use for taxonomy or other purposes.

3:36:57SpeakerI find that really interesting. Once we can use that sort of way of interpreting the terpene data and come up with more common data sets that people can share, then it gives you a right or wrong way to look at things. It's like having an evolution hypothesis. But it's neat that they all tie together so well and start to add to each other. And they can. If you just make a...

3:37:23SpeakerA smattering of just a cursory approach to doing it can confuse things a lot. But the terpenes, there's a lot of them. They come in all, every one comes in every different level at one time or another. But these classes that you guys have come up with are fascinating. Great. Yeah, well, and this is, I don't know if you can see this, but I put another one up, another screen up.

3:37:47SpeakerIt's another slide from the presentation. And this is one cultivar, okay? Yeah. That's been run through, again, the standard cultivation conditions where you can vary inputs, right? You can vary nutrient regimes or what kind of feed they're getting and what they're not getting. And you can see that this clone actually came out with all these different... So, see where it says CLM here? Where my mouse is going over?

3:38:16SpeakerYeah. That's the class, so the class is based on the top three terpenes, so CLM stands for Caryophylline, Limonene, Myrcene. So in this left sample here of this one clone, Caryophylline is the dominant terp, and then Limonene, and then Myrcene. But you can see on the sample right next to it, it's LCM. Limonene is the dominant terpene, and then Caryophylline and Myrcene are the next two in prevalence.

3:38:46SpeakerOkay, so... The point that I'm trying to make here is that even the same clone can actually show a slightly different terpene profile. Although the terpenes that actually make up that variety are the same, you can see that the levels between them can change based on cultivation conditions, right? The levels between them are not the prevalence of the three main terpenoids. They're still the same. Would that be drift?

3:39:13SpeakerWhat? No, it's not drift. It's environmental conditions, so it's essentially epigenetics.

3:39:19BubblemanSo this is why they say that lavender grows the best in France in a particular region, correct?

3:39:26SpeakerYeah, maybe that region in France is like this, you know, it's a more stable cultivation conditions, for example, right?

3:39:33BubblemanProduce a particular profile like an MLC or an MLX or whatever it is for lavender.

3:39:39SpeakerYeah.

3:39:40BubblemanHuh. It's pretty trippy.

3:39:44SpeakerIt's just not experimental error within the measurement itself? No, these are real. No, I mean... The analysis with these were all done with a validated sampling procedure and everything, Mark. Like, this is real. But, I mean, like, if the sample were taken off the edge of the flower as opposed to on the inner side of the flower, I mean, are those types of variations going to account for... All those studies were done, accounted for, and then they use a five grand sampling procedure.

3:40:20SpeakerAnd then they take, you know, 200 milligrams of that sample. So that's all accounted for. Whereas, you know, you wouldn't get that if you saw it in a dispensary sample, right? It wouldn't be all accounted for. Right, right. Well, it would just be like a one measurement one time. But this guy's doing the measurement five times. And so what we're looking at here is basically the statistical average of five runs.

3:40:48SpeakerNo, five grams.

3:40:51SpeakerThere's a whole sampling procedure where you grab like a top, bottom, middle, bottom.

3:40:56BubblemanOh, okay. Sorry, Mark. I just, you guys can't talk at the same time. Mark has to be muted while Chimera's talking because there's a reverberation happening. So if you can do it, that'd be awesome.

3:41:07SpeakerYeah, sorry. I can't actually even see the screen while this is up, so I can't do it. I'm sorry.

3:41:12BubblemanNo, you don't have to do anything, Chimera. Mark just has to make sure he mutes his mic.

3:41:15SpeakerI'm sorry. Okay. But the point that I was trying to show here was that, you know, even when you're trying to overlay terpenes on top of genetics, like Caden's lab was doing, that because they can't control the cultivation conditions and everything, like they're probably not getting, I don't know if they're growing their own samples or not, but you can see that there's a huge variation already present just from environmental effects.

3:41:40SpeakerSo it's like, how do you tie that to a genotype, or how do you tie that to genetic information, right?

3:41:49SpeakerI see what you're saying with that, but even if, let's look at these and say they were individuals, rather than different growing conditions for the same clone. They still would come out in the same MCL, MLC, whatever you want to call it, class. For instance, because the three main terpenes are still limonene, caryophyllene, and myrcene, whether they're One is a little higher than the other or not.

3:42:19SpeakerIf you look at the minor terpenes or the ones that are found in lesser concentrations at the bottom, they flop around a little bit too. But their presence doesn't change and they never become a major one. So taxonomically that would still be applicable. That's the kind of system that needs to be put on the terpene data so that they're not random. So it's not just random. You know, no matter what it fell into, it would be part of that group.

3:42:44SpeakerRather than putting the terpene data in there, you'd put the terpene group in there. Yeah. And so what I've actually put up now is this is actually a family, right? This is what you're talking about. These are siblings, brothers and sisters. There you go. So each one is a sample, right? It is an individual. There you go. And I would still say roughly, look at it. It's hard to see on my little computer, but they...

3:43:12SpeakerI can blow them up a little bit there. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, they still look like they're roughly the same profile, if you will, the same class, terpene class. Yeah, they all, they all are, you know, terpenylene dominant with myrcene and beta-cylophenine and some of them have a little bit of osamine. Yeah, there you go. So, anyway, this is out there if you guys look it up online.

3:43:36SpeakerGreat stuff.

3:43:37BubblemanWe'll try to get it posted in the Hash Church group. For those of you that aren't in the Hash Church group, it is a private group. You can go join that group, and it's an easy place to communicate with the panel between the week of Hash Church is happening, and it's a good place for us to post these little things that you want to go back over the course of the next couple of weeks and check out to see.

3:44:01SpeakerIt's like it's already been posted, Mark. There you go. Thanks for sharing this stuff with us. You know how long I've been waiting to see this, and how long Sam's been waiting to see this, and it's really nice that it got out there. I still wait for a paper on it, and more data and things to look at, but the summary charts are cool. Yeah, he's doing a paper, and this one is also from, I don't know if you can see it, but it's up now, but this is from Josh Werzer's presentation, also in Canomed, and these are some of the things that we were talking about last week.

3:44:37SpeakerSo this is cannabinoids. The orange line, I don't know if you can see this orange line or not.

3:44:45SpeakerSo the orange line is the Emerald Cup samples, and then the green line is the October samples that came into the lab. And here they're measuring terpenes. So, our total terpenes. Total cannabinoids, it says. These are total cannabinoids. Sorry, the next one's terpenes. But yeah, so October mean for just the weed that was in the market was 20.4%, and the Emerald Cup mean was 21.1%. And here's THC, CBD, and then here's the terpenes.

3:45:28SpeakerIs this terpenes? No, that's also... Yeah, okay. So this is the cannabinoids of the Emerald Cup winners versus the overall. So the winners are the orange and the overall is the green.

3:45:44SpeakerAnd you can see that the real difference is in the terpenes. So the terpenes, the orange are the winners and the green is the average of the overall.

3:45:56SpeakerSo the overall mean of the samples entered into the Emerald Cup was... 2.5% were 25 milligrams per gram, whereas the winning sample were 34.1 milligrams, or 3.4%.

3:46:11TonyAnd ours was, Mark, ours was 89 or 91 milligrams per gram.

3:46:21SpeakerFlowers?

3:46:22TonyNo, no, concentrate. It was a solvents 2 to 1.

3:46:28SpeakerSo these are flowers. I think he actually did do a concentrate in here as well.

3:46:34TonyYeah, you'll see. There should be one that was like nine. Yeah, it's just interesting to see the flowers transition.

3:46:42SpeakerWhat this basically shows is that terpenes are winners.

3:46:49SpeakerYou can also see though here, I don't know if you can see this one that's up right now. But these are pesticides, right? Detected levels of pesticides. And they can break down which pesticides are being used. Right?

3:47:04BubblemanYeah, that doesn't look as friendly and as lovely as a terpene chart. No.

3:47:08SpeakerThese aren't all pesticides. A lot of these are PGRs, plant growth regulators. Oh, even worse. Especially the two on the right. Rob and I are going to be doing testing of all of these to see if any of them potentiate THC.

3:47:29SpeakerAnyhow, good shout out to those two labs. They're both doing really interesting work down in California.

3:47:37SpeakerAnd I thank them both for sharing their stuff with us, with the public, because it's really where everybody gets to learn from.

3:47:47BubblemanAbsolutely. Yeah, definitely got to get some of those guys on one of these days. I know they're busy, but it'll work out one of these days.

3:47:56SpeakerYeah, well, there's all sorts of groups that are doing it now, too. I mean... You know, the workshop now up in Washington and these other guys down in California, they're starting to make some really good research that's going on that's interesting to growers and consumers. You know, we've got to remember that these are two of the larger tools that they give us feedback about what we're doing.

3:48:15SpeakerSo if you're growing and you have your weed tested or analyzed, it sets a metric, allows you to start measuring how actually good the quality of your crop was, you know? Mm-hmm. And consistency also, you know, you can use it to figure out how consistent you are.

3:48:34BubblemanI think it deepens our understanding and the education that everyone's going through about this plant as well. It's just obviously going to be a huge bonus for that. So the panel's looking pretty hashed out. The panel looks pretty hashed out, I like that. Four hours of just puffing.

3:48:54SpeakerYeah, well, that's a lot of intense reading there, Chikai Mira, so thank you very much for sharing that knowledge, because live for that sort of shit. I know we're a bunch of fucking pot nerds, but that fucking rocks. Yeah, I really hope that those presentations were going to, I heard that they were recorded, and I really hope they were going to be.

3:49:14TonyThe video is going to be made public, so we'll see what happens.

3:49:18SpeakerTo see these presented would be great. Reading it and trying to interpret the way that the person was going to interpret it is the next concept. It would be really nice to have a video of both those presentations. Yeah, but you know, they're fantastic. I'm looking at the SC Labs presentation now, and it is very interesting data when we start sharing this knowledge and seeing the reality of What is on the open market right now, I mean, when you start looking at things like mold and things like growth hormones, you start kind of wishing there was some regulation.

3:49:57SpeakerYou know, just like when you go in and buy bread in a supermarket, you don't expect it to be moldy. You know, you don't expect growth hormones in your milk. Or I guess if you drink cow's milk, maybe you do, but you get my point. Yeah. Enough regulations to protect the public and not so many regulations that handicaps the industry. Yeah, well, you know, handicapping the industry and getting them to grow without the poisons and such I don't think is hand in hand.

3:50:26SpeakerI mean, I believe there's a big... Well, it's not handicapping them, it's getting them to regulate, but to not allow research, to not allow, you know, to make this circle jerk that you can't... Do research unless you're approved by the DEA and get your materials from an approved DEA source of which there aren't any. Yeah, no, I agree. That's all. That's over-regulating stuff. Yeah, and you know what, though?

3:50:51SpeakerThat's not what I meant. I mean, I was just looking at it from the perspective of now that we have laboratories pulling in samples and seeing... You know, these things in the samples, I mean, we as consumers have no, we're not walking around with lab equipment, you know, on our fucking forehead and be able to detect the crap that we get in the baggie that we want to smoke in three hours with our girlfriend or mom or our friends in the hospital or whatever.

3:51:18SpeakerAnd the responsible groups, Berkeley patients, do all they can to make sure that what people get is straight up. They do it on their own. They're leaders. They're not being told to do it. They're doing it. They're self-policing. And they're a model for what we need to do. We don't need other people to tell us what to do. We need to do things for ourselves as a developing industry.

3:51:42SpeakerAnd there's nobody else that has a vested interest in making this work, really, except us. I think the labs in California are a real coup. I think that in a free market where there actually have been no regulation... They've brought out microbial testing, pesticide testing, PGRs, you know, cannabinoids and terpenes, which are, you know, interesting from a medical point of view, but I think it's a real win on how these guys have... We made it part of the discussion, and this is where in 2007 we knew why we had to start testing and why we had to reach out to the experts around the world that were making the testing solution because we knew that the, you know, the research triangle wasn't going to give us any of that data, so...

3:52:26SpeakerWe hope to reinvent the wheel, and so now that we've seen the wheel reinvented, i.e. we now have THC testing, now out of that we found CBD, and now look at all these other things that are spawning from it. So more than anything, re-interjecting science into it has been a key educational tool because we always knew medically it was affecting people. We saw it firsthand, but we just didn't have the Actual data to do so.

3:52:55SpeakerAnd I thank all these labs for taking those risks over the years and actually setting these standards so that now we can have at least base point to understand what THC is, now what CBD is, and the combination of those, now understanding of the terpenes, the effects of these terpenes, the modulations, and what these different effects are. Because we know there's all different keys, as you just showed us, Chimera.

3:53:21SpeakerAll these same plants all had different keys in the end, yet still are beneficial, and the science can now take steps forward, because now that we understand that, okay, now what's in that Y chromosome? What's going on? What's the next step? And so it's a constant build of education from just our curiosity, from wondering, hmm, why did I get sick from smoking this pot that gave me a respiratory infection?

3:53:49SpeakerAh, there's something we're not seeing. That is now, you know, how many people are now employed by different laboratories across the United States and who are getting ready to open in states or states that are coming online or new laws in states that making sure that laboratories are coming online. It's now no longer just a half-assed kind of quackery that we're talking about. It's a legitimate reality that why we've always felt the need to set the standards is There was no standards in California, and we knew if there were standards set, then others would follow them.

3:54:26SpeakerAnd in time, fortunately, people have, and we're only going to see it just continue to spawn more science. Look at the Philos Project and what it's doing and what it will spawn. So thanks, everyone. Much love for everything you do. Yeah, I like the Philos Project. As much as I like looking at the galaxy, I've got to say I was disappointed, you know. It's like you were saying, there's no scale to the difference between the individuals, and why are the clones appearing with variation in them?

3:55:00SpeakerIs that an artifact of the analysis, or are they different clones, all this kind of stuff? And I think they could have answered those questions by doing a family like we had talked about. So I was a little bit disappointed in that, although I enjoyed playing with the galaxy. They've done more than 1,000 samples And Rob says there's 600 up there. He'll be meeting with them in a few days.

3:55:24SpeakerMaybe he'll find out if the full 1,000 is up there like was implied to me. If that's true, then I want to be able to look up the land-raise samples that we contributed by sample number. There may be 1,000 or not, but they're not. Go through and look at the names. I already tried to find them. I couldn't. They're not. That's because they're not in the data set.

3:55:51SpeakerIt's not a thing. They either haven't analyzed them or haven't entered them in the data set. And I think it's flatter.

3:55:57Wood ThrushI think they're working on analyzing them and they haven't put them in the data set.

3:56:01SpeakerI think the Galaxy is only a beta mock-up of what they want to do, Rob. You're right. That's exactly what it is. Yeah, it was a media point. It was a, we'll have this for 420. I don't know, I've got to say. Everybody else is publishing papers, so Philos needs to, you know, keep its flag flying. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. A bunch of people timed announcements on 420 this year.

3:56:29SpeakerI thought it was pretty interesting that that's becoming the new announce date, but. The government of Canada, as far as I'm concerned, won them all with its 420 announcement.

3:56:38BubblemanYeah, dude, for sure.

3:56:40SpeakerYeah, that was pretty funny. Using the UN to announce legalization on 420, I mean, that's pretty epic. It's great. Someone has a sense of humor.

3:56:53BubblemanYeah, I think there was something in Jamaica that happened that way as well. I can't remember what it was. It was one of their milestones that they did on, like, Bob's birthday at 420 or something. It was like a double whammy. It was some ridiculous like, wow.

3:57:12SpeakerI did see Gypsy on 420.

3:57:15BubblemanNice. We got to get Gypsy on Hash Church.

3:57:17SpeakerHoly shit. He was pretty well off. He was a bit spaced out, and he didn't really want to smoke, and then he did, and then he was even more spaced out.

3:57:31BubblemanDamn. Yeah, for those of you that don't know, of course, Gypsy Nirvana, he's a longtime friend of myself and many of the people on the panel. He's a pretty wild guy that sort of started the seed boutique thing and it kind of grew really big and fast and he sold a lot of seeds and at one point his success led him to the Philippines where he was living a nice life and He ended up getting thrown into a jail there and held for an extradition warrant or something that never came.

3:58:01BubblemanThey held him for like two and a half years. And now he's freshly out. So definitely be good to have him come on Hash Church and share his story. It's crazy to think that he just fucking disappeared for two and a half years.

3:58:18SpeakerIn this day and age.

3:58:21BubblemanYeah, I don't know. It just kind of blew me away. I was like, what do you mean he's like in a prison waiting extradition? Extradition is some pretty crazy shit when you're a traveler.

3:58:30SpeakerYou don't want to be... Hey, I wouldn't mind if we wrap because, you know, now, you know, Kymar, you got me looking at all these damn reports and I was looking at the pesticides and I wouldn't mind, Rob... Sam or Kamara, any of you guys really, like some of these things like, I'm going to stumble over the pronunciation of some of these damn pesticides, but they seem very prevalent and I was just wondering, you know, what are they and how dangerous are they?

3:58:59SpeakerLike where do some of these things come from? If we look at, start at the right, Paclobutazole is a PGR, it's a plant growth regulator. It's also, I believe, it has some Carcinogenic properties. It gets concentrated in Rosen, I'm pretty sure. Can someone click on Todd's screen so that it becomes the main one? Or there we go, I just click on his, I guess. There we go.

3:59:26BubblemanI have it on Todd's as well, so it's recording like that.

3:59:30SpeakerOkay. The next one over from the right is Michael Butanil, which is Eagle 20, or a product they sell in Canada is Nova, but Michael Butanil is the active ingredient. And that's what turns into one of these cyanide-containing compounds when it's combusted. So that one's a major bummer to be finding in your sample for sure.

3:59:52BubblemanHigh number two on that one. Damn.

3:59:56SpeakerI can't remember what myphenazate is, but I think it's a spider mite thing. And then spiromesipine is forbid 4F. Which is a lipid inhibitor that they're using as a miticide nowadays.

4:00:16SpeakerAnd then imidacloprid is also a pretty nasty... Neonic insecticide. The neonic, exactly. It's the one that's kind of implicated in doing in the bees. That's surprising to see. Certainly something you don't want to be... Having in your concentrate or incinerating at high temperature all those nitrogens, it'll decompose. Okay, then I have a question here. Then when they're saying that total failed samples 49.3%, can you tell me what that means?

4:00:51SpeakerThat doesn't mean out of 10 samples, 49.3 of them failed or out of 1,000 or whatever the percentage is. It means out of 1,000, 493 failed. It is what I thought it would be. And as far as I know, these are levels that they have set, SC Labs has set. They're not binding, but when their customers or they are curious themselves and analyze for pesticides, that's Failing is failing according to them, and that's not saying the state is going to have higher or lower levels or whatever, but it's frightening any way you look at it.

4:01:25SpeakerThey're not out of line. Okay, at what level are they finding these pesticides in there? Are these in parts per million? Well, that's the thing is these are pass or fails, so it's like they're failing. You can look up their results. On their website, it tells you exactly what the... The levels are for a pass fail for any particular... Well, that's pretty much how I feel about it.

4:01:52SpeakerIt's pass or fail. If you're using this goddamn shit, even if it's from ignorance, it's still wrong. Well, but the issue of the level at which they find these at is that if they're looking down in the parts per billion level, which certainly they do have Thank you so much for joining us.

4:02:45SpeakerAnd I think you have to put that in perspective too. There are not a lot of FDA rulings for other things in our lives that go to part per billion level for anything. If you go to those kind of levels looking at organically produced produce other than cannabis, in Southern Oregon for instance, a lab that's done that, they will find DDT in everything. The question is, how hard do you want to look?

4:03:15SpeakerParts per million are probably good enough to keep us from getting DDT in our systems. Parts per billion is scientifically interesting, but it has nothing of import on our health. And this is where I talk about over-regulation, being very susceptible to it these days, especially with all this really cool science gear that every Tom, Dick, and Harry now has. Which is great for advancing our science, but it also allows regulators to put, and those voting, really more importantly, those voting for extreme regulation, to think that the entire world is one giant CSI crime scene investigation.

4:03:53SpeakerYou know, this is not, we can't just ensure everybody's safety because we have really great labs. Well that's because we found that some laboratory with a We took these milk standards to the city, and then the city decides that it's going to follow milk standards. And it's like, wait a second, we're not dealing with milk here. So yes, that's one of the realities that we've already had to face with trying to just discuss the idea of science or regulation in that resolve.

4:04:24SpeakerAnd they were going to make that as actual science until we interjected and told them otherwise. It's, again, due diligence and working with laboratories as well as working with your policy makers because it is key. Otherwise, you will find yourself in a most precarious situation. Because they don't know what they're talking about. We are the experts, people. But even we as the experts still, there's a lot that we don't know.

4:04:52SpeakerAnd that's why we're relying on science to quantify it so that we're not just talking out our ass anymore, that we're actually bringing a real... Data to back that up. We have to have faith in the science that's already been done. Not us, the people on this panel, but as a concerned populace worldwide. We have to look at what's already been done and realize that we've looked for 40 years plus for all the Danger warnings with cannabis, and there are very few, and that science, we have to have faith also that science will bring us the answers, and they haven't found anything wrong, they haven't had a chance to find all the good things that are right, but we can't wait for science, we have to move on, you know, that's what, I'm a scientist, I love my science, but we have to move on based on what we know now, not wait for a bunch more.

4:05:47SpeakerYeah, well, I mean, again, come back to the lab. It was a good job for these labs for showing us all the stuff that's in these products, you know? A lot of the excitement about terpenes and all these other things are coming for even, you know, even insecticides and pesticides and fungicides. We wouldn't know if the stuff was in the meds if we weren't looking, so. What year was Steep Hill set up?

4:06:09SpeakerWas that 2005? I'm not sure.

4:06:14SpeakerNow that was more like 2007, 2000. Okay, so it's like 10 years or less that we've had access to labs. Yes, less than 10 years. The majority of the people. We got the testing stuff and started to do ring testing in 2007. That was the late part of 2007. So that's really the litmus of the real beginning. So yes, just Not even 10 years yet of actual science.

4:06:45SpeakerWell, Rob and I were a bit luckier because we had GC and HPLC for the last 25 years with our lab. So we had a breathing advantage, especially when we were breathing for terpenes and cannabinoids. And cannabinoids too. I was so upset online the other day that science hasn't made cannabis any better.

4:07:10TonyIt's like

4:07:11SpeakerYou wouldn't know anything about terpenes, you wouldn't know anything about cannabinoids, you wouldn't know anything about CBG dominant or CBD varieties or type 2 plants or any of that science. I don't know why some people are so, they hate on science so bad. I think it's because they feel lost and they don't understand. We've had so much nomenclature that's been tossed at people that has become so dominant in the paradigm just from the Indica Sativa alone.

4:07:41SpeakerNow trying to uproot just that discussion because it's so ingrained in the subculture that people look at you like you've just, you know, stolen their child. What do you mean there's no Indica Sativa? I have a question for Rob. Rob, I noticed that you pretty much always use BLD for broadleaf drug variety. Didn't Carl Hillig first use WLD? Yeah, he did. We decided not to use that because WLD in all standard Mendelian genetics project means wild.

4:08:26SpeakerI understand. That's why we left it out. So that was a change we made. And basically I've omitted by now, although they're all explained in the book, for practicality reasons, I've omitted several different classifications that Carl had there. They just don't weigh into what's going on in the world today, really. So try to simplify it. Whether it's BLD or WLD, I totally agree with all the rest.

4:08:53SpeakerYeah, it's just to avoid some confusion there. And you're the only one who ever noticed, except Carl, I'm sure, but he never mentioned it.

4:09:01BubblemanTodd and I had a conversation about it, actually, where I was like, I'm pretty sure it's WLD, and he's like, no, dude, it's BLD. And I'm like, why the fuck are we, why did I think it was WLD?

4:09:12SpeakerI've always used WLD because that was Carl.

4:09:17BubblemanYeah, and those conversations I had with you are why I thought it was WLD when all of a sudden it became BLD on Hash Church.

4:09:25SpeakerIt was a whole mess. The English language was such a mess anyway. As soon as you say broad leaf, which we did in the book, it should be broad leaflet to begin with. And then we say broadleaf and immediately your editor wants to take the hyphen out and make it broadleaf like broadleaf deciduous forest. So it didn't exactly go as smoothly as one might hope. The whole nomenclature thing is, I might as well get it out now, I was going to send you guys an email, but we've been bashing around whether to say variety, cultivar, varietal, or strain.

4:09:57SpeakerWell, A lot of us think of strains as being bacteria or whatever and fungi and viruses, and that might be their primary thing, their prop scene in mind. But in the plant world, strain is actually the word we should be using for these varieties of plants we have out there now. That's for a simple reason. We can call them cultivars once they're into commercial production, possibly. Generally, the nomenclature groups that take care of taxonomy are going against the word variety for plants in general.

4:10:37SpeakerWe're either going to call them cultivars, or if they're in a state of development, a lineage, plants that could be shown to be of a common lineage, and sharing Sets of common traits are called strains. I just went ahead and did this on the internet a couple of days ago. And I was a bit surprised, but I would say this is accurate. And Mojave has gone through recently and tried to find the first place that strain was used.

4:11:08SpeakerMore in a place that, you know, I was kind of hoping I hadn't used it first, for instance. Wow. Archie, do you ask... Economic botany collection of people. Or if you can post an email, but we'll reach them all. I think botanists would disagree. No, no, David, I'm looking this up as botanical... Definitions from Oxford, Merriam-Webster, Wikipedia, all of them. From the dictionaries, I found the same thing.

4:11:42SpeakerBut when I talk to botanists, they disagree. Yeah, it's my understanding. That's what those botanists also... Make the mistake of thinking it really only applies to other things. We're talking about cultivated plants. Maybe these botanists should be economic botanists. Yeah, but nobody goes with strains of wheat, though. I mean, Rob, my understanding was that the International Society for Nomiculture and Plants abandoned strain in, like, the early 70s.

4:12:11SpeakerNo, they didn't. They still accept it, and it's rice strains in particular. Rice is divided into strains, as an example. And not that many other things are. They don't like the term variety. That's the one that they're expunging at the moment, or trying to. And they're replacing it with cultivar when they're a little farther along in In their development and not showing their uniqueness, not just their commonality, which is more what we have in strains of cannabis at the moment or varieties.

4:12:45SpeakerWhat about the lab-based varieties? They're also not chasing out the term varietal, which really is only used by the grape industry. But they're not so down on that. But that might be a way for us to use another term also besides strain. Because there really isn't much confusion there with other whole groups of organizms. Which is, you're only beef or botanists only beef with this. Because they're confusing us with lower life forms.

4:13:14SpeakerIt's a bit of the problem. But it's really when you look at the definitions of these words, that's how we're supposed to use words.

4:13:25SpeakerYou can go to the online street dictionary and get a slang thing for it if you want, which would probably tell you that strain is now what everybody uses in the cannabis world, because that's how they judge their definitions is amount of usage. And back to how we'll use it, probably strain hunters was the first. I don't know, man. I don't agree with a lot of that stuff.

4:13:46SpeakerI mean, words mean things because they mean things, right? They're symbols for a definition of something. And what happens is when society starts changing the meaning of words or we accept a different definition of it, then that word means a whole bunch of different things. That's exactly my point. But variety is one that's actually a legal term, right? That's why they don't like it is because it actually has a legal connotation to it.

4:14:10SpeakerRight, but just to say this, they do update the dictionary every year based on usage. Every year they add words, every year they add extensions to the definitions because of common usage. You've got stuff like the Urban Dictionary, right, that defines, I mean, it's like... No, I mean Webster's, I mean Oxford. What about the Oxford Dictionary? That's not a botanist reference book. There you go. There's different dictionaries.

4:14:36SpeakerThere's like a botany dictionary, you know. Show me a botany dictionary that doesn't evolve with language.

4:14:43Wood ThrushThey still use marijuana as a term for the legal name for cannabis.

4:14:49TonyMarijuana? Yeah, I mean...

4:14:53Wood ThrushIn legal language, they use marijuana as the legal name for the plant.

4:14:59SpeakerIt depends on the country. I agree with cultivar. I have no problem with that. Hey, I agree that the world is crazy. The only problem with cultivar, for cultivated variety, the only problem with that is actually what we're looking at in most of what's, for instance, in the Phylos project, don't really qualify as cultivars. They're not far enough along. To me, they're land-race varieties. They're not even that.

4:15:31SpeakerThey're blends of those, but they're in flux. They don't really earn the name of cultivar. I'm not arguing pro for this. I'm just interpreting the rules of nomenclature for you. But they don't qualify as a cultivar until they've reached a certain level of development, showing uniqueness and these other things that make them qualify. A strain could be simply a hereditary lineage that can be a work in progress, as most of these things are, going towards being a cultivar.

4:16:02SpeakerThat's the argument that nomenclatureists like Ernest Small would make. That's a different issue than whether we use the word strain or the word sativa. Now, that's playing footloose and fancy free with what definitely... A cultivar can also be a single clone, no matter how it's bred or anything. A cultivar is a single clone, and that's why cultivar is the word to use. I'm with you on using the word cultivar.

4:16:28SpeakerThat's not what this topic was, though, so talk to me about using the word strain. I think strain's wrong. I'm going to say it. Well, go read the definitions in the botany dictionary before you come to that conclusion, because I thought day before yesterday it was wrong, too. I wouldn't look it up. I'd be in the devil's advocate here. Go look it up. Well, send me your links.

4:16:50SpeakerI mean, I have looked at them. Rob, Rob, you're the one that got me to use Calix for 30 years. Oh, I know. We do change our minds. Absolutely. I'll be hung for now and forever. What I hear people saying, though, is language is a work in progress. It gets changed. But does that mean at this moment we should go to, what do we do right now?

4:17:15SpeakerDo we let strain continue to be used until, Cannabis is known as strains, and grapes are known as varietals. That's what we're talking about. Rob, you're joining in. Everybody got it wrong, and you're essentially walking along the parade of everybody celebrating that they're wrong. I'd be the devil's advocate here for sure, man. I'm winding you up. It's like mano a mano. You know what I mean? Everybody thinks that mano a mano.

4:17:39SpeakerLet's fight mano a mano, right? They think it means man to man. It doesn't. It means hand to hand. Shake, handshake. Yeah. And there's tons of stuff like that, like Survival of the Fittest. Everybody thinks that Survival of the Fittest is like the biggest, toughest guy, you know, that can run the mile in four minutes or whatever is the fittest. That's not what Darwin meant. Darwin meant the redneck in the fucking trailer park with 12 kids.

4:18:06SpeakerFitness is your ability to leave offspring. It's an example of society saying that this is what we think it means, but it doesn't mean that that's right. I don't know. I'm not of the boat. That's exactly right because everybody else believes that it means something that it doesn't. Why don't we correct them? Because it's hard? We can add to it, and we can correct it, but look and see how inclusive the term is to begin with.

4:18:32SpeakerI mean, a bigger battle for us would be trying to recognize the nomenclature that's been around, and at least not called drug-variety sativas, but that has become the common definition for it now, and will probably remain so. Probably restrain will remain right where it is, and so will sativa. To be realiztic about this, you know, I'm not a lexicographer or a, you know, I don't really study etymologies, but things do come into common usage, just like you mentioned.

4:19:08SpeakerEventually, are you saying, Rob, that it will be sativa? There will be direct varieties? In my own cynical way, what I'm saying is, yes, if I wish to communicate with anybody else about what's called narrow-leaf drug cannabis by me, or narrow-leaf drug cannabis, or things that descended from India, or whatever you want to call it, or my God, you could even call it Indica, that That's, nobody's going to know what the hell I'm talking about.

4:19:39SpeakerWell, it's confusing now. I don't, I try not to use the word sativa unless I'm talking about hemp, but I use equatorial. I think equatorial is a good word that actually describes that set of plants. Yeah, that's what I've always said near the equator. Can I ask a question, smart guys? You're also smart. Wait a minute, hold on, I've got a question, smart guy. You know, like cannabis is a cognate of cannabis.

4:20:03SpeakerAre there other examples of words that were derived from any of the cannabis words that we know? Words are important, I agree with you guys. But I agree with the evolution, so I agree with both of you right now, which is really why I'm laughing. Are there other words other than cannabis that are literally cognates, like cannabis comes from cannabis, all cannabis was derived from cannabis, are there other examples of that?

4:20:28SpeakerWell, there's a huge number of European words from, you know, the Spanish word for hemp, the French word for hemp, the Italian word for hemp, they're all cannabis. Hey, it's 420 on the East Coast. So say it, Dr. Mark.

4:20:53Bubbleman420 on the East Coast, that's nice. I'll have a little 420 dab. We haven't made it for a 420.

4:21:00SpeakerI think it's hilarious that the most of them are discussions. Well, you know, I think it's really cool that you know you were having this. I think that science is of an evolution and I think, you know, one of the most amusing conversations I had when I got out of prison was Rob sitting me down and saying, okay, remember everything I taught you about sativa and indica and afghanica?

4:21:20SpeakerAnd I said, yeah, because it was in the 90s. He goes, okay, we don't believe that anymore. This is what we believe now. And I thought it was really funny, you know, because this is the evolution of thought and applying what we know now to be true is kind of the beauty of our evolution and it was a funny thing to hear. It made more sense when I come out of, you know, with the way that we explain it now about northern varieties and equatorial varieties, it makes way more sense to me as a grower than it did before to use, you know, words of utility to describe the way something grew.

4:21:59Wood ThrushI would like to say I've been watching this show since the beginning and if we go back and look at, you guys have gone, this progression has happened in these videos online. All these terms you guys are saying now, you guys have, you started with Using different terms. And it's actually documented how you've changed the terminology on this show.

4:22:29SpeakerThe archaeology of Hash Church.

4:22:31Wood ThrushYep. Peeling back the layers. We are making the definitions as a group.

4:22:37SpeakerWell, you know, I think that people hearing the terminology used correctly are debated as we are. It gives them the idea of it all. To me, the biggest point isn't so much what they call it, because once you become a world traveler, you realize you're trying to get your point across more than you're upset on how they say tomato or tomato. You just really want it on your pizza.

4:22:57SpeakerThe point is getting your point across. If it's a strain or a cultivar, as long as we know what we're talking about, it's the point of words. I wouldn't want to be a grammar police, you know, and berate people for their lack of proper, you know, grammar etiquette, but it's more of making them understand what it is we're trying to get across, you know, with the differences and the varieties and the subtleties, which is why we're talking about it all anyway.

4:23:26SpeakerYeah, I mean, yeah. I don't know, the Sativa Indica thing, again, doesn't really, doesn't really teach us anything, you know, like... And me, it does because, you know, me as someone who looked 20 years ago, I was at Positronics trying to teach people how to grow cannabis and a lot of the cannabis was divided up by the sativa indica bullshit, which really didn't work when you're practically trying to teach people the difference between what veg time a plant needs and how much time it's going to take to flower.

4:23:55SpeakerAnd when I can explain the difference between a short flowering plant being a northern variety That flowers fast or conversely a haze being an equatorial variety that takes a long time to flower and doesn't need any veg time because it's down there acclimated to growing and flowering simultaneously. It makes more sense than sativa indica which really don't mean shit in no rude way to put it. There's a lot of items in the world named Indica and it has nothing to do with cannabis.

4:24:22SpeakerIt just means stuff that came from India. So we as an industry or as a community have in a way been misusing terminology or adopting that terminology to cannabis when in fact it's used to generally describe a whole host of stuff that's exported from India. Yeah.

4:24:43Wood ThrushSo I have a question about that. I'm in Eugene, Oregon. So if I were to go by climate, what varieties should I be looking at as a grower?

4:24:56SpeakerIt's not so much that what you should be looking for is when the varieties that you find finish. So the more we know and we share about the cultivars or the strains or the cuttings or the clones or the whatever you want to call that shit on the shelf with roots on it that's three inches tall, the more we know about that and when we know when it'll finish is the best way to put it in because now you just got to look at what your season is compared to what that plant's going to do and fit it in.

4:25:23SpeakerAnd in a way, You know, we talk about this all the time that, you know, varieties that we can grow here in the northern part of California aren't really the most exciting things. I mean, I like long flowering hazes and you can't really pull them off without some type of manipulation because the season ends and it's wet and it's moldy and it isn't going to grow all the way to December.

4:25:44SpeakerSo you've got to find what grows right in your climate based on the amount of days it needs in flowering mostly.

4:25:49Wood ThrushBut now... A lot of stuff that's got a lot of blueberry in it because it finishes quickly.

4:25:58SpeakerSure, and I'm sure the blue and the blueberry up there was a lot of cold.

4:26:04Wood ThrushIt actually didn't get cold that early this year. We harvested the end of October.

4:26:09SpeakerRight, but blueberry was really big in the early 90s, for instance. When we would go around dead, blueberry from Oregon was really, and you know, and I think that in a way it's just climate, you know. If you're growing stuff in Southern California and you're not getting those cold nights, you're probably not going to see the blue and the blueberry, so to speak. It's environmental as much as it is genetic.

4:26:29SpeakerI mean, or not really. It's two things, but plants that are, you know, like Ken's granddaddy purple might not go purple if it's in, you know, a perfect warm climate and doesn't really see cold temperatures. Might not express that. What causes that, Chimera or Rob? What causes a plant to decide, oh, it's cold outside, I'm going to change my color? It's a switch, a genetic switch, and some plants have a more sensitive switch, or some are sensitive to temperature and some aren't, you know.

4:26:59SpeakerSo does a darker plant absorb more light and thus, you know, kind of get more heat out of what would be a colder situation? Is it a way of turning up its temperature? I don't think so. I don't think so. It could be, but I don't know. I've never heard that that's the... I think there's also different reasons. I mean, either they have the genes to produce those colors regardless of temperature, Or maybe the cold is locking up phosphorus and things like that, which can turn things colorful.

4:27:34SpeakerIt's also triggered by lower light in the autumn. It's not just about temperature. Fall colors. Yeah, well different pigments harvest different wavelengths of light, so it could have something to do with that. But I don't know about heat per se. Well, being cooler definitely triggers it, and lower light comes at the same time. So, yeah, it's hard to separate the two, I suppose. But warm grow rooms don't produce purple plants.

4:28:06SpeakerWell, they're genetically purple ones that will be purple. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. But they still won't come on until the autumn. They're very rarely purple when they pop out of the ground.

4:28:22SpeakerThat's probably less common, but they usually have purple stems as maintained clones. Yeah, I've seen pictures of purple coming out of the ground, too. I've seen them. So I think it's just a variety thing. It's like that's going to be a trait that varies across all this huge selection of DNA that we play with. There's just usually triggers to these kind of... They're genetic, of course, but there's usually a trigger that makes things happen.

4:28:50SpeakerSo they're developmental or... Or temperature-wise or whatever. Anything to do with purple plants. If you have a plant you know is going purple, it's going to go purple in the stems. Take a piece of electrician's tape and wind it around the stem before it starts to turn purple or just when it begins to. You'll get a nice green spiral right down the stem when you take the tape off.

4:29:15SpeakerSo the anthocyanin pigment is triggered by the Being seen by the exposure to the sun. So as Chimera is saying, it's another way of getting different wavelengths of light possible. It's not like that in every plant. I think that's a really cool thing. I've got some great pictures of that. I showed Jorge that in the garden in San Francisco and he'd never seen it before. It blew me away that he'd never seen that.

4:29:47SpeakerWhat happens if people use the plant tie tape that doesn't let any light through? That's where you first see it. Those diamond twist tags, they show it pretty well too. Even branches that lie on top of each other, you know, when you're harvesting, you take a branch away, you can see. In that case, it's a way to protect from DNA damage, or maybe it's to harvest light.

4:30:13SpeakerAgain, it's just a gene, so any gene is going to have variation in the signal, and it's possible that there's a mutant that is just always on purple. One thing that I found common about purple varieties was the original haze back in the 70s. The purple haze was probably the strongest, but it wasn't as clear and as high. It was more physical and low-dose, but it was still the strongest weed I've ever smoked.

4:30:47SpeakerWhat do you think, Rob? It's definitely some of the strongest weed around. You can still taste a little bit of it even in these modern things sometimes.

4:30:57BubblemanNice.

4:31:01SpeakerI always prefer the green. Hey guys, is CBD found in equatorial varieties or is that something that is devoid of CBD? CBD. And are all equatorial varieties necessarily hempish? I guess that's two kind of huge questions. What do you mean? Because people look at narrow leaflet drug varieties and they think hempish. You know what I mean? Or more related to industrial varieties, in a sense. And I had somebody trying to tell me that CBD was in NL5 by Hayes the other day, and I totally disagreed.

4:31:34SpeakerI mean, when I had my stuff, my, well, Super Silver Hayes tested, or my Neville's Hayes tested, it didn't have any CBD in it. I grew an equatorial variety 25, 20 years ago, and it really didn't have CBD. Not a great amount of THC, but it was definitely a THC variety. It was a drug variety.

4:31:58SpeakerI think CBD probably pops up now and again in all varieties. If you look at the averages from seizures, for instance, from the DEA stuff that the University of Mississippi looked at over the years, Basically, and everybody else's stuff from the Brits and everybody else, basically things that came from narrow leaflet drug varieties or more equatorial drug varieties, which are only said to be related to sativas because they have narrow leaves.

4:32:29SpeakerThat's it. Whether you're looking at lay definitions or whatever, but they're...

4:32:37SpeakerYeah, they are later maturing and they tend to be their own group and that's the way that's basically going through until today. But they're, yeah, it's all different ways to look at it. My other question was this, is there any varieties that have CBN or is CBN just something that is degrading from THC? It's a degradation product. And a lot of the samples that DEA analyzed and stuff did have it because it had been in shipment and then in storage and then whatever before they ever got it.

4:33:09SpeakerAnd when you look at those samples back to that a bit, basically there wasn't much CBD in much of anything. It pops up now and again, but apparently land-raised breeders all over the world of the narrow leaflet drug variety breeders, equatorial breeders, although most of them don't live at the equator, I mean, semi-tropical might be a little better term. But anyway, they didn't have much CBD. You know, there are occasional plants that did, but on average they don't.

4:33:42SpeakerAnd that's how small, and these people came up with their classifications, is really based on that. After the time when a lot of this research was done is when Afghan showed up. And it's what brought us back CBD. It'd be nice to know more about what Lebanese and Turkish always have plenty of CBD in it. For instance, another hash producing area. I'd like to know more about the old Moroccan.

4:34:09SpeakerIt may be too late to know, but that'd be interesting. Do these varieties have a lot of CBD? I imagine they did. The feral varieties almost always have CBD. Sometimes it's the predominant terpenes or predominant cannabinoids. Rob, all dry sift has CBD because the growers and the farmers are not selecting for THC, they're selecting for resin. Absolutely. I suspect that the Moroccan would show the same and Lebanese, but I don't really know because I don't have the data, but yeah.

4:34:48SpeakerBut you've done the bioassaying. Yeah, the problem is that CBD for me just makes the dope seem not quite as good as I'd like it. Right. I just know that from using this stuff straight. I just visited Colorado. You want to do a little experiment on your own body? Go to Colorado. They have all this Novaco, dudes. This is less than 0.3% THC, relatively high terpene, and some of it quite high CBD.

4:35:20SpeakerThat's kind of the point, but stuff. Oh, my God. Mark's been there. He's chuckling back there. It's a disaster for people who just like to get high. It's horrible. But good medicine it may be, but different strokes are different strokes. Hey, I got to share with you the new song that this hash church has inspired. It's called Purple Strain. Purple Strain, Purple Strain Purple Strain, Purple Strain Purple Strain, Purple Strain

4:36:12SpeakerThat's it. All right, people. I love you. I got to go. Thanks a lot there, Mr. Withrush. Thank you very much for coming and sharing your story. Y'all have a great day. I love y'all.

4:36:30BubblemanYes, I'm going to go through the panel and thank everyone for coming on. Always a pleasure to have Chimera and Bob and Sam and Todd and Mark and the whole group of regulars. And obviously it was a pleasure to have you, Woodrush, today to share your story. So thank you very much for that. And thank you all the people that have been watching and broadcasting for the last eight weeks.

4:36:56BubblemanWe will be back next week with episode 84. Thanks for watching everybody. Peace out.