Exploring Sensory Science and Terpenes in Cannabis

0:01BubblemanPreparing our stream. I'm going to record onto this computer as well. So now we're live on YouTube, apparently. So I'll just wait for it to go pop up and then I'll share the link with everyone. All right, there it is. We're live. Welcome, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Hash Church. It's been about a month since we popped one of these off. We are still in Hash Church 3.0 episode 22.

0:28BubblemanI don't know how many we've done so far, but we've got a cool group today with a couple of new folks that haven't been in the room before. So welcome to both Max and Nick. Thank you to have you guys here. Yeah, welcome to Skunk Man Sam, of course, and Wade Laughter. A couple of OGs in the house. I like it. You got the OGs, you got some new folks.

0:50BubblemanWe got to keep, we're all rungs in the ladder after all of the The beautiful trichome that we love so much. Johnny fucking B is in the house. How are you doing, Johnny fucking B? There he is. Johnny B. I don't know, man. You bring a smile to my face when I see you. It's always great to see everybody this morning. Hell yeah.

1:16Johnny BHey, Johnny B. I'm moving slowly today because I herniated my disc on Tuesday.

1:23BubblemanOh, dude.

1:26Johnny BYeah, that's what happens. I think it was probably Tuesday or Wednesday because I ended up in the hospital. I'm not live yet. I ended up in the hospital on Thursday and Friday. How did you do it?

1:42BubblemanI'm sorry to hear it. I went for a walk.

1:49BubblemanKeep in mind John has broken almost every bone in his body when he fell 30 feet off the scissor lift. That he was working on some years ago, shattered like the side of his body, ended up on all the opioids. You guys have all heard the story. So it makes sense that John could go for a walk and absolutely herniate his disc. Funny enough, John, yesterday I was on my electric skateboard with my son in Squamish ripping around and I got a little confidence and I went up this big bank and I was kind of like halfway through.

2:21BubblemanI was like, what am I doing? I've got my six year old son on the board with me. Well, I bailed pretty good too and sprained my wrist.

2:29Johnny BSo I'm just kind of, you know, this is what happens when we get older. We get, we get a lot more fragile. We have to slow down. And then you look at our, like when we were kids, we're like, yeah. So, you know, the idea is to, when you go for a walk, don't try and walk for two hours.

2:46BubblemanWell, I'll tell you, this Moxley's, Mr. Moxley's Salve, Mr. Moxley's Salves, I think you met these guys with me before. This is a good product. I got to say, I have like 20 salves at the house here, and I was rubbing them all over my wrist over the course of the last two days, including this non-cannabis one from Sage or Sage, whatever they're called.

3:08Johnny BThis is the goods. Really good to get all these creams and all the stuff they have. I actually have about six or seven in my bathroom. So I have ones from Jerry James, I got MJM creams, I got so many different ones, Buddha bars, all these different creams and bars and they all have different ingredients. So they actually work different ways. Some got that eucalyptus smell or they got different fragrances and just those smells actually help too, right?

3:32Johnny BSo I love the creams when you need them, they're great, but

3:38BubblemanJohnny B's get, he's getting into the sensory science of cannabis. And that's literally why I invited our two newest guests today, Max Montrose, who does the interpeening over in Colorado and has amazing books. And I'm going to let him do a little introduction on himself. And then afterwards, we'll talk to Nick Ziegler, who I was lucky enough to get introduced to via Jeremy Plum. And of course, when I first met Jeremy, I just, I just, you know, we got right into a whole ton of conversations, went extremely deep down the rabbit hole.

4:08BubblemanAnd he was like, man, you got to meet my friend, Nick. You know, he's like the he's like the bubble man of hops. I'm telling you, you got to meet this guy. I was like, oh, shit. Well, I want to. Funny enough, I just mentioned Jeremy Plum and who shows up into the room. But Jeremy Plum. So perfect timing, Jeremy. Your ears must have been burning. I literally just mentioned you and how you introduced me to Nick.

4:30BubblemanAnd yeah, I guess we really just started. But I want to maybe let Max tell us a little bit about all the things he's been doing for the last few years. And introduce himself to Hash Church. I'm sure he's very well known in the cannabis community, but some of the Hash Church people might be new to him. So give it a go, Max. Welcome to Hash Church.

4:50BubblemanWe're happy to have you. What have you been up to? Tell us. We want to hear about it.

4:55SpeakerThank you so much for having me on Hash Church. I've wanted to be on for a long time, so it's great to be hanging out with all you guys.

5:04SpeakerWhat's up, everybody? What's up, Hash Church followers? If you guys don't know me, I'm Max Montrose. I started the Tricom Institute. We're a cannabis education company that likes to do the best job we can to mitigate the misinformation that is prolific in our industry and teach people things that we know to be real and true based off of lots of hard work, lots of research. And we have a different approach to cannabis in a variety of different ways.

5:39SpeakerI'm not gonna bore you with all of our courses and classes online and all the different stuff we do. I'll tell you more about the sensory stuff since this is kind of what that show is about. I started a program called Interpenning and Interpenning came out first in 2014. And the idea of interpreting is an approach to cannabis from more than an expert level, simply because it's pretty common that when we meet cannabis experts, they don't necessarily even know a lot of the anatomic features of a cannabis flower.

6:20SpeakerHow many different types of trichomes a plant grows and what their different functions are. And so many other things, such as even what's the proper name of those little pistols. Many cannabis experts don't know those things. But further, from an expertise perspective and more than an expertise from a sommelier perspective, how can we intimately engage with cannabis flower All of this is in a way so intelligent that we can actually gauge where on the spectrum of psychopharmacy between stimulating to sedative any domesticated hybrid plant type will fall within and just engaging it with ourselves.

7:03SpeakerSo no strain name, no lab testing. What is the quality of this flower? What is the quality of this product? And how is this product going to make you feel psychotropically? And how would you know that? And so our program utilizes three different cranial nerves. And the one that's kind of the coolest is our fifth cranial nerve, which is the trigeminal nerve, which is the largest aspect of interpreting methodology, which is our actual ability to organize How and where terpenes accumulate in group within the totality of themselves in the flower and your ability to actually feel their quantum mechanic vibrations that do vibrate in particular ways.

7:57SpeakerAnd we actually instruct people how to sense and feel when cannabis is vibrating in more of a stimulating pattern or more of a sedative pattern. And how to kind of analyze the flower and other ways to kind of put it on the spectrum of, you know, what is this? What is this hybrid plant? What are we working with? So that's just kind of, that's just a good way to scratch the surface of interpreting.

8:21SpeakerAnd I would love to answer any of your questions and dive deep into it if you'd like.

8:29BubblemanI love the, I love the sensory science aspect of what you're doing. And I, I never, you know, I, I dug down it. I always found it very interesting. We communicated a little bit. I sent you some pictures early on for one of your books that you did. And I just, I love what you're doing, man. I think that, um, I see more and more people sort of taking this new approach and I, you know, I think Ganjir is, has started a sort of sommelier type course.

8:54BubblemanYou've got yours going, like the more that we can get of this and the more we can kind of figure out, like, What is it going to be called, that cannabis sommelier? Because it's going to be a different term, I think, but it's the one we use when we, because we're just at the start of this sort of road. But I literally have to pause, take a quick break and say what's up to my homie, Rick DeLisi, who just came into the room.

9:21BubblemanI haven't talked to this guy since his father got let out of prison after Jesus Christ, Rick, was it 32 years?

9:29SpeakerYeah, 32 fucking years. Can you hear me?

9:31BubblemanFucking hell, bro. I can hear you so well, man. I've been watching you with your father, with his granddaughter, with the whole family. Dude, it's been bringing tears to my eyes. I knew you were tuned in.

9:42SpeakerI knew you were tuned in. I felt your presence in my throat. It's just been a fucking whirlwind lately, but it's fucking awesome. And I know you're one of the people that touched a lot.

9:53BubblemanHow will I remember talk?

9:54SpeakerNo, you did. You did so much for it. So it was like you brought me Not alone, but you and the cannabis community put me a lot in the forefront because of my father's situation. And slowly but surely, I got to the people who were necessary to get my father proper advocation And he was released December 28th this year. Thank God. And he's in decent health. We're struggling to get him up and running as a certain factor in the industry in some sense, kind of get a little sort of restitution for him.

10:26SpeakerBut everything seems to be going well. And I just got my head up and I'm super thankful for all the reception and man.

10:35BubblemanI mean, well, I'm down for some of that. Bubble Bags wants to support his reentry. You hook me up on the sidelines, dude, and I'll do whatever I can for that. I'll never forget, you know, that sort of perspective I gave you. And it might have been in Barcelona or Amsterdam one day when we were talking about our old man. And I was telling you how mine died on the motorcycle accident.

10:54BubblemanI said, look, dude, your dad's He's gone, but he's not gone. You're going to get him back. And I didn't remember.

11:01SpeakerI didn't believe it because it had been so long. And I know so many trials and tribulations. I was like, I was like, yeah, that shit's easier said than done. But, you know, I didn't give up. And through the network of a great few people. Yeah, he's he's free and he's now an emancipated human. You would have got him out sooner, Rick, except for he was in state of Florida.

11:28SpeakerThat was the problem. Exactly. You know, you know the deal. Absolutely. So, yeah, on that note, I'm going to have a dab.

11:38BubblemanAwesome. Yeah. It's so good to see you, dude. I wasn't sure if you were going to have time or be able to come out and whatnot. And I'll be honest, dude, like part of me was kind of like, I didn't want to like try to be one of those people that were going to be like, you know, I always just wanted to give you a place to sort of share the story.

11:56SpeakerBut once you got out, I wanted to be more receptive. But it's also like at a certain point, I was so hounded upon the release. It was like, I think on the 15th day, I just said to my dad, like, dude, I'm not answering another news company. I'm not answering another press call. Cause they were like getting to the point that they wanted to do. Like first they did my 21 year old daughter in a story.

12:22SpeakerThen they wanted my 12 year old. I was like, no. After the 14th day, I said like, look, everybody's got to leave. My dad was like, no, we got two more barbecues with every dog. I said, dad, I can't take it anymore. Like it's been 14 days of nonstop, like But it's all worth it in good retrospect. It's just like, you know, I really appreciated just going back this time and having that two weeks with him alone.

12:45SpeakerThat was groundbreaking for me.

12:49BubblemanDude, I can't believe you're what were you 11 years old when your dad got pulled?

12:54SpeakerYeah.

12:54BubblemanSo you're 11 years old. He goes to prison. He gets out. Your son is 12 years old.

13:01SpeakerMy daughter's 12 years old. Your daughter, yeah, Jesus Christ. Yeah, I have three daughters. I have three daughters. I got a 21-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a two-year-old.

13:07BubblemanWell, that's right.

13:08SpeakerYou're the old girls. He had never met the 12 and the two-year-old, but it's all good. They know each other now, and they like each other a lot. So it's fucking cool, bro. It's like, it's weird. You know, you want to hear the weirdest thing? This is what, and this isn't a good thing, but it runs through my head kind of shocking. The snitch is dead, and my dad's free.

13:32SpeakerI mean, so my dad is lightweight, healthy and the snitch is dead. So it's like and he died of natural causes. We didn't have to do anything. It's just like, and I'm not saying I'm glad he's dead. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying.

13:45BubblemanNo, dude, I get you. I get you. I get you. It is. Well, it's played out the way it was supposed to. I'll be hitting the ball with you as well. Later on, Max, I want to get into a little bit of how you guys look at the different methods of inhaling and not just the different methods, but also off the different, you know, whether you're inhaling off of, say, silicone carbide, Whether you're inhaling off of quartz, whether you're inhaling off of Sapphire, you know, all of these different surfaces.

14:20BubblemanAnd I don't know how deep you've gone into this, Max, but if you haven't, I suggest hooking you up with Brian Schroeder from Denail, who seems to be like all he focuses on is the way the terpenes are preserved or destroyed based on how the surface area holds, retains and releases heat. And it's a whole other rabbit hole. And I'm sure you've done some experimenting for me.

14:45BubblemanI got pretty lucky with, with, with blue. Yeah. The slurper. I mean, this is kind of a slurper right here.

14:50SpeakerNo, but all those slurpers are great because they have so much air intake. So the oxygen just pushes the vapor through. Yeah. I got that one too. I like that one a lot.

15:00BubblemanThe blender.

15:01SpeakerYeah. I got the blender right here. That's what's up.

15:05BubblemanThat's what's up. So I got all the JP gave me this a long while ago and I've never used this and now I'm having a hard time using it because someone told me they sold for like twelve hundred US dollars and I was like twelve hundred US dollars for a banger. That seems that seems fairly extreme. Ewok Glass shipped me out this one. It was a custom 10 milli for my little Dustin Revere here.

15:28SpeakerDope. I love the Revere raindrops.

15:31BubblemanThe first time I smoked this little banger, I just was like, oh, I'll just hit a normal size dab. Dude, I felt like I was in grade eight. I got so high. I not only wanted to run like just wherever, I wanted to run out of my skin. It was that intense. And you guys know I puff a lot.

15:49SpeakerMy first slurpers did the same to me. It was like, Everybody was like, have you ever had a turf site? I was like, yeah, whatever, bro. I've had big dabs. Come on, let's do it. Put a normal dab on it. It was just like, oh, at the end, I was just like, holy shit. This is a whole other level. Anyways, yeah. It's true innovation.

16:10SpeakerThanks for welcoming me to Hatch Church. Did you want me to answer some of those things while you're loading a bag? Yeah. Hell yeah. So I don't want to disappoint you, but interpreting in and of itself has not yet moved into passion concentrates from an interpreting perspective. And the reason for that is the amount of work that needs to be done and that we're doing from a cannabis and sommelier perspective.

16:49SpeakerAnd so We're currently, we're still not done developing and learning the flower aspects of cannabis appellation, which is brand new. Cannabis terroir, is it real or not? And who says so? And what is cannabis terroir? And how would you work with it in different capacities? And then within that, what about typicity? And typicity is a term that the cannabis industry doesn't know yet. That's a term from viniculture where certain wines have tastes that are of typical, that typical unique thing that could only be that one certain thing.

17:34SpeakerSo the way that Durban poison has a flavor and an aroma that is unlike anything else in the world. There's no fruit, there's no flower, there's no perfume, there's no plant, there's nothing in the world that smells like Durban poison. And it has and retains that unique flavor sense so much so that it's a unique characteristic that's recognizable. Well, how do you call that? What is that?

18:04SpeakerThat is its typicity. And so our ability to certify OG genetics, if you go to a dispensary and you're selling Jack Herrera, It better damn smell and be Jack Herrera. But how do you do that with cannabis morphology? And how do you do that with a black market culture that has said, hey, dude, I got Jack Herrera just so that you buy it. Florida needs that so bad.

18:33SpeakerRight. And so this is what we're working on is actually being able to certify the topicity of these OG genetics and these OG varietals to give them the truth in the marketplace that they deserve. And so our work with just flower alone is megalithic, right? And we're also working on apps to basically build what Leafly always wishes it was, which is an actual application where if you said, you know what?

19:07SpeakerI want to look for cannabis in a way where I'm going to shop for a particular feeling, which might not come from a strain name or a lab test. And so our ability to use interpreting methodology and also extremely sophisticated lab work, we're partnered with guys who actually built a cannabis aroma supercomputer. And they're visually seeing in three-dimensional gas chromatography the Full scope of terpenes, well over a hundred terpene types in individual flowers, but also their alcohols and their theols and their polyphenols that contribute to this true complexity of where aroma is coming from.

19:57SpeakerLike a lot of people think that the gas note in cannabis is a terpene. And a lot of people think that that terpene is terpenylene. And what we're finding is, is that gas is a feel. And so how do we work with theols in the way that you guys were just saying? So you're talking about using different bangers for the purposes of terpenes, and you're talking about going down rabbit holes.

20:21SpeakerIt's like, all right, well, here's a whole brand new world called flavorants. And how do we operate with the complexity of the flavors and aroma characteristics that cannabis truly has to offer? And these are things that I'm still learning about and I'm still exploring. You know, that's kind of where interpreting is right now. But we also believe that interpreting can and does and deserve to move into the world of concentrates.

20:54SpeakerAnd that's where I would want help from guys who know concentrates way better than I do, because I'm a flower dude, just all day. Backyard flowers just growing in horseshit behind the house, just raw, stinky ganja cooking in the sun. That's my jam. When did you first realize that terpenes were so important? What's that? When did I realize that terpenes were so important? Yes. You know, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you something.

21:24SpeakerI'm going to tell you the truth about this. It was when I was buying cannabis as a kid on the black market before there was dispensaries. And when I would smoke certain flowers, they affected me so dramatically in such different ways that I was actually able to stop taking pain medication for my crooked spine or anxiety medication for my anxiety or I stopped taking Adderall as a child just to pay attention in school because when I started smoking Island Sweet Skunk and Golden Goat, I just realized I can pay attention because these herbs are stimulants the way that Adderall is a stimulant, except when I take Adderall, I can't eat, I can't sleep, and I'm an asshole.

22:21SpeakerAnd that's what meth does to you, because it's meth. Adderall is an amphetamine salt. Ritalin is methylphenidate. And they give kids meth as scholastic performance enhancement. It is not medicating a debilitating condition, right? So I'm basically taking meth pills as a kid just to do better in school because I'm ADD and dyslexic up until the point I smoked Golden Goat. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can pay attention when I smoke goat or Island Sweet Skunk, but the side effects are the opposite.

22:52SpeakerI can eat, I can sleep, and I'm in a good mood. And so it changed my fucking life when I found cannabis. And how I could take care of myself and stop taking these medications, but only if I could organize and compartmentalize how different flower types affect me in the different ways that it does. And so as a naturalist, and as a chronic observer of all things nature, and as a dominant supertaster, chemically and genetically, I actually started Aaron Wojcicki-Peters, He, His, His, His, His, His, His, His, His,

23:46SpeakerThat is a sensory perception cranial nerve. So I didn't know any of that stuff until I kept learning and kept going down the rabbit hole and kept exploring. What is this? What do we have here? Because we've got something here. We can organize cannabis and the organization works. within the inflorescence of the cola structure it's it's shape context plus its smell context and plus where you're feeling the aroma of the smell in in different parts of your face those are three cranial nerves that we pull together We're interpreting the terpenes of these flower types to gauge them and put them on these different spectrums.

24:25SpeakerI don't know if you guys have ever seen this, but this is a little cheat sheet I made. And we're actually switching out the leaves for buds. And I can open up the book and show you the book. And actually the Weebill is kind of a good example too. So instead of saying sativa, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

25:09SpeakerChris Brown, Your mood is adventurous, your risk is paranoia, and your activity could be concerts or creative arts. How intoxicated you'll become is dependent on your personal tolerance. And then we go through the spectrum of the five effect types of flower with this tool. And then simultaneously, this is a tool that organizes Thank you so much for joining us.

25:56SpeakerAnd so this is really a spectrum between sativa species, subspecies, afghanica, indica, variety afghanica to sativa species, subspecies, indica, variety indica. And so really trying to teach people that it's not indica or sativa, the speciation, subspeciation, and then the varietals thereof Thank you so much for joining us.

26:46Johnny BThat's fucking awesome. Yeah. That's what I just said. That's awesome. Yeah.

26:51SpeakerGo ahead, Sam. I want to hear from Sam. Years ago, we tried to determine if people could smell more than one or two terpenes by smelling cannabis, and everybody fails. Well, you know, I've got a good one for you, Sam. The terpene supercomputer that I'm friends with now, they called bullshit on interpreting. They're like, there's no way that you can just smell unable cannabis and categorize the chemistry effect type of it.

27:25SpeakerAnd so they bought me an airplane ticket, flew me out to their lab in California, where they had previously lab tested eight different types of cannabis that could not have been more different from each other. One was harvested that week. Another was over a year old. Some were six months old. They had hardcore sativas, hardcore indicas. They had OG types where you should have recognized the typicity of a classic genetic.

27:51SpeakerThey had just the whole spread. And they're all... Aaron Wiggins, C.D. : Guys in white lab coats and then they invited the dispensary owners of LBCA, the Los Angeles dispensary organization. So the OGs who have been having dispensaries in LA probably longer than anybody else in the US to all watch me do this. To see like, can this guy actually go about an unlabeled jar of cannabis and tell us all everything about its quality, what its plant shape would have looked like and how its chemical effect is going to be based off of their lab analysis and jar after jar.

28:30SpeakerI got seven out of eight. I'm just talking about the terpene contents. All the other stuff, it sounds much more possible. But terpenes, because an average cannabis variety has 50, 60 different terpenes. And most people can name one or two if it's really loud and really dominant. But they can't name any more because it's just too difficult for them or they don't have the experience.

28:59BubblemanYeah, but now we're moving into the future, Sam. See, you're like the fucking base rung on the ladder, dude. Like we're all like, without you, dude, like none of us would be where we are. That's a fact. But when I listen to Max, it sounds like he's right on the fucking money with shit that you've already done In a more sort of simplistic range, and he's taking it to this like futuristic, like, I'll just say this, I go with my gut and everything Max just said fucking sounded proper.

29:31BubblemanI'm interested. I like it. Yeah, right on.

29:35SpeakerAnd this is definitely something serious in the wine industry. So I always wondered when it would become prevalent in the cannabis industry. Yeah, and after Nick talks, because I want to hear from Nick as well, if you'd like, Rick, organizing cannabis as a commodity in selling it and operating at it from a wine and viticulture perspective makes a thousand times more sense than what we've been doing in our mom's basement for the past 20, 30 years.

30:10SpeakerBut that's what's kind of happened in the past five years is that there's become such a fine knowledge of the preference of which terpenes people want and so forth. At first it was like, yo, if I got some good weed, it's good weed, boom, we're good. Now people want their certain like range of what they want, their gelatos or their OGs or their You know, whatever cush their preference or the cookies or it's just funny to see.

30:36SpeakerBut that's that was that is the next step with with cannabis. I've been feeling it for a while. Just wine was always respected that way. Once it was brought into the and even beer IPAs, they're really respected in the market of flavors. You know, so cannabis is definitely that even even Even from a more basic perspective, because what you're talking about is truly complex, but from a way more basic perspective, just imagine this just for a second.

31:08SpeakerA sophisticated wine shopper would never walk into an alcohol store and ask for a variety of grape at a percentage of alcohol for the bottle of wine that they're looking for. That's just fucking ridiculous. People laugh at that idea. They're like, yeah, but that doesn't even make sense. It's like, exactly. But that's what we do with weed. And it doesn't make sense. Whereas in wine, if you walk into a liquor store and tell the guy, you know, red or white, right?

31:35SpeakerA stimulating type or a sedative type. Red. Perfect. What country? USA. What region? Northern California. What type of, what type of variety? Max, you are ignoring the Mad Dog 2020 customer base. And the...

31:55BubblemanHe's like, he's like, well, what about two buck Chuck?

32:03SpeakerYou know what? That's not the, that's not the type of customer, you know? And like, like if you're the kind of customer that does not care, You just want to get high or you just want to get drunk. That's what two buck Chuck is for. And that's what like sacks of cheap flour are for. But that's not the kind of guys we're hanging out with on Hash Church.

32:23SpeakerAnd I don't think that's the kind of guys that watch Hash Church either. So, you know, it's just a different breed. But the point is, is If we were to compartmentalize cannabis like wine, we're gonna get to a point where we say, hey dude, what are you looking for? Like, man, I'm looking for some skunky, garlicky, OG funk that's gonna lay me out but get me thinking.

32:46SpeakerIt's like, okay. I got something for you. Regardless of the lab test and regardless of the strain name, I don't give a fuck what you call it. I know what you're looking for. And I can tell you how good it is, what quality it is, when it was harvested, how ripe it is, and how loud it is from a chemical perspective. And I can offer it to you in a fun, cool, creative way.

33:10SpeakerAnd I can also make it sound so I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here.

33:34SpeakerThe San Franciscan shale content that's indigenous to the soil that the cannabis farmers are knowledgeable about. This is what it means to be a cannabis someone. Yay. This is it. This is what we're doing. You know, that's it. That's awesome. I'm loving this conversation. I want to jump in here for a minute. I came aware of terpenes and their importance from therapeutic point of view because trying to help young people with seizure disorders and really found that early on, of course, I thought it was cannabinoids, CBD particularly, that seemed to give this benefit that we were seeking.

34:21SpeakerBut I came to realize, yeah, that terpenes seemed to have an important role. And I'm realizing increasingly, maybe I don't even know that. But I'm wondering, Max, in your exploration on flowers, you started off describing your experience based on therapeutic benefit you personally experienced is what drove your interest. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, and again, I'm mostly talking concentrates because none of these kids smoke joints or hit on their, Dab rig.

34:52SpeakerBut we've seen really dramatic differences in benefit for seizure disorder in certain kids with this type of cannabis that has similar cannabinoids as this type of cannabis But really different results based on cannabinoid test results. And yet we see dramatic difference. So I'm wondering, have you gone any further down that path? And if you haven't, I'd really love to engage with you some more on what little I've learned over the years on that one and explore potential benefit for those kids.

35:33SpeakerCause there's still a lot of people out there who sees on a regular basis and it's always a drag. This is Wade, thanks. From a seizure perspective, we do, I think we all know that the key from cannabis is CBD. You know, hands down, cannabidiol, time and time again. CBDV specifically. Say that. Cannabidiol, Aaron, so CBDV specifically has been much better anti-seizure. CBDV, yeah. And so maybe, yeah.

36:03SpeakerYeah. So maybe Nick would be able to tell you more about it than I would from a therapeutic perspective. I just know from a cannabinoid perspective. What's that? Go ahead. I have a little item. Wade, I was just thinking about the moment when, I believe you've worked with Ida Fu in the seizure disorder population down there. There was a period of time when we first had been hunting through a lot of the type threes and found Harley Sue.

36:29SpeakerAnd when Harley Sue showed up, you know, it changed everything. The efficacy went off the chart. A lot of the kids that were not receiving benefit from ACDC were suddenly having remarkable outcomes. Harley Sue is a terpenylene dominant type three plant and obviously early maturing, beautiful flowers, remarkable floral intensity in addition to the terpenylene intensity, a very complicated aroma profile. There was always speculation that that was contributing some of the element.

37:00SpeakerBut the other notion was that that was the first type three plant I ever saw in an analytical testing result with CBDV. It had a small quantity. And then I've seen that sort of substantiated that the CBDV contribution had really probably helped boost. But one of the things I think about in the sort of like work that I'm really excited to hear Nick talk more about is as we move towards whole metabolome I think the reality is when you have like about a thousand bioactive compounds interacting in constellations that are so vastly complicated, it's going to be lifetimes before we can tease out all of the variables from the therapeutic effect basis.

37:46SpeakerAnd I actually, I have just one small idea I'd like to contribute, which is the effect matrix. I'm still seeing companies who are trying to leverage language like what Max is introducing in sort of early effort and marketing that may in many cases sound actually a little bit like deceiving in the sense of being comprehensive or full on. And to be specific, companies that are the most onerous, the ones that are making products that say this one makes you feel sleepy, this one makes you feel sexy, this one makes you feel stimulated, whatever, it's This is really clouding the airwaves.

38:24SpeakerHere we are at the advent of a new era of unbelievable chemoscape diversity and the possibility of a lot more personalized effects and broad range of therapeutic efficacy. But now we have this massive voice from the industry coming in and says, no, it's much more simple. It's just these few archetypes. And it's like, here's the thing that moves units, that speaks to consumers where they're at and this whole bullshit.

38:48SpeakerAnd I'm just like so excited to get to that next level of consequence where we can deal with the effect matrix in a more sophisticated way, which deals with endocannabinoid system tone, which is genetically influenced by diet. And then we have the, of course, phytochemical inventory. And then we have mindset and setting. But of all of these things, and deliveries have to be added in, dosage is the most important in terms of the overall effect.

39:13SpeakerSo this notion that How can we get more complicated and more meaningful with the effect matrix and all of these diverse analytes on the path to like whole metabolome research? Gosh, I think it's all about titration and observation and journaling and also counseling. It's about having a relationship in that therapeutic practice. And I'm just so excited to talk with you more about that. I wanted to just say a few things there.

39:40SpeakerJeremy, I think that's a really good series of insights. Is my mic better, guys? You sound great. Okay. It was pretty echoey earlier.

39:52SpeakerYou're just talking about like sort of the integrative approach by linking therapy as well as, you know, close personal observation and then sharing that with providers or care providers. That's a huge shift in how therapeutics are going now. It's a lot of experimental therapies that are using Not only cannabis, but also some of the more psychedelics like ketamine and or psilocybin are really going down this whole person approach to dealing with very complex mental health issues and or physiological issues.

40:29SpeakerAnd I can name some of the groups. I mean, there's the MAPS Institute, which is doing all the work for psychedelic research. They just secured a ton of funding. But also the Ames Institute in Seattle is one that I work with. And they're really, really good. Dr. Sunil I grew up and Dr. Giles and Dr. Grohl and everybody else who works there is working really, really closely with cannabis and medical cannabis specifically.

40:53SpeakerAnd they don't just give you a card and send you on your way. You have to participate in this journaling with Ozmind and go through this whole process to really figure out what works for you. And, um, What Max is talking about I think is really interesting. One of the things that we have run into in the past is when you have enough of a sample size, you start to realize that the effect matrix is far less dependent on the chemotype of the cannabis, but is much more dependent on the individual's cannabinoid network receptors and how they work together.

41:34SpeakerSo what may be a feeling that's stimulating and or relaxing at the same source, or I guess anxiolytic, but it's the same time stimulating for somebody might induce paranoia and stress in another. And that's much more of a body issue than sort of the chemotype issue, as you would say. And yeah, sorry about that. So I should probably introduce myself. Thanks, Marcus. So my name is Nick Ziegler.

41:59SpeakerI have been on the fringes of the cannabis industry and business for many years, as I'm sure many of us were. And now it's really nice to be able to be invited here, but also to be sort of Adam Wendel, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students, Dean of Students,

42:40SpeakerAdam Wendel, A the moiety of what happens in fermentation in beer and when you dry hop and add all those flavors how those things change and how people experience them is obviously a very big part of being a brewer. Adam Wendel, But I've worked in brewing on and off for about 20 years and I recently moved or I guess not recently, but three and a half years ago moved into hop research.

43:01SpeakerAnd as many people will know, hops and cannabis are the two closest relatives of each other. In the brewing world, we laughingly discuss in hushed tones, enjoying the cousin. It's sort of a running joke. And Jeremy can probably talk. There's a couple of podcasts that I used to run with Justin at the Brewing Network. We talk about a lot of this in detail. But really, the thrust of my work for the last five or so years has been Adam Wendel, Edmonton PhD.

43:31Speaker: Trying to figure out what the relationship between the chemicals and the compounds in hops. Adam Wendel, Edmonton PhD. : And what how that translates into sensory perspectives. And one of the things that we actually Marcus. Can I share my screen for a second. I've got a couple of slides to show you all if that's okay. yeah let me see if it's set up so that you can it should let me go into my advanced oh no it says only host so now all participants can share who can danger danger yeah right here let me uh see if i can start this and uh how many of this let's see all right here so one of the where is it there we go let's see here so and i'm just going to

44:17SpeakerOkay, does that look, can you see the entire, or can you see the presenter mode or just the whole slide? Okay, so one of the things to, I'm just going to sort of back up back into this and that hop character is something that has been discussed for realiztically hundreds of years, but really has only started to advance and we've sort of I have a bit of reputation as a disrupter.

44:44SpeakerI tend to make people's lives a lot more difficult than they have to be by asking the wrong questions at the right time, I think. So we came in to hops and there was this paradigm, and if you all enjoy craft beer, you probably understand this, from way back when, when the Germans dominated the hop market and there were Only, there was only one thing they were worried about really, and that was bitterness character.

45:08SpeakerAnd then they started thinking about aromatics and they were talking about, you know, noble aromatics versus non-noble. So that was just bittering hops and you had noble hops and noble hops are like, Saz, and Herzbrücke, Mittelfruh, and, you know, all these pretty, what we would consider now to be very subtle hops. They don't have a lot of, they don't have a lot of punch. If you compare as an example, like say a Czech Saz, All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

45:40SpeakerSo we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

45:59SpeakerAll right. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in about a minute or so.

46:25SpeakerNick Wiggins, Ditchweed that you had to go behind your uncle's house because the hemp farmers let their seed go into the ditches in Kansas in, you know, 1974. So a little bit of a different in terms of not only the potency, but the overall character and all. And so things have changed a lot.

46:43SpeakerRelatively recently, people, I mean, recently, I mean, in the last 20 years, and it's really sort of the kangaroos in Sierra Nevada and starting this, you know, this crazy thing called dry hopping, which was actually invented, you know, many, many, many years ago. But he was making this amazing beer called Sierra Nevada Pale. And that really, for me, kicked off the craft brewing innovation. And it was this shock to the system because people realized that beer could have different flavors and it could taste floral and fruity and piney and resinous and all these beautiful, beautiful aromatics.

47:16SpeakerSo they started thinking about hops in a different way. And so if you look at the diagram here on the right, They tried to, I'm going to minimize this so you all can see this a little better.

47:30SpeakerThey started breaking apart the aromas in the noble and the floral and stuff and started looking at spicy, floral, fruity, citrus, herbal, grassy, earthy, evergreen, so on and so forth. You also get Woody in there. And there's a lot more than this. But when you look at this, if you look carefully, you see that all of these traditional hops are sort of generally in one quadrant or one side of the diagram.

47:53SpeakerBut then if you look at all of these superscripts, you see it's also flory, it's also fruity, it's also citrus. And so this two-dimensional approach to classifying hops in terms of a spider diagram or how much it is just doesn't work because they're All of these are incredibly complicated. You have a couple of major fractions. You've got the polyphenol fraction, which is in what I jokingly call the planty bits, so like the bracte, the bracteoles, the petals, the stems, so on and so forth.

48:20SpeakerAnd this all applies to cannabis. And you have the flavanols, flavanthriols, phenolic carbolic acids, other polyphenols. And these are very important for the character of the whole flower. Adam Wendel, MD, But they will not necessarily carry through into the final product unless you have a long steeping time. So if you're making a beverage with hops or cannabis, you can get some of these into solution. If, however, you're inhaling it, this stuff doesn't last.

48:50SpeakerIt gets broken apart and it gets destroyed. When you talk about the aromatics, though, you start seeing a huge amount of variation and complexity that starts to really dominate and describe what the character is. So this is a very incomplete list. We have identified over 1,400 Nick Wiggins, Active Compounds in terms of flavor active and aromatically active compounds in hops and the list is growing every year.

49:23SpeakerNick Wiggins, But Nick Wiggins, One of the things that has has frustrated me for a while is the cannabis industry just talks about turps and terpenes and actually they're not Nick Wiggins, The they are very important, but they're not the end all and be all Max mentioned files and those are files are sulfur containing compounds. All right, so we're going to talk about some of the things that are really, really important for aromatics.

49:50SpeakerAll of the diesel-y fuel characteristics, and Jeremy and I have talked about this, fuel is actually not a single compound. It's actually a mix of some esters. There's ethyl acetate in there. There's some benzoate and some benzene compounds in there. There's some of the methyl butyl characteristics. Aaron Waite, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken, Amy Van Dyken,

50:31SpeakerAdam Wendel, MD, Two hops that on the surface have the almost identical terpene profile. So they have the same level of myrcene, which is gonna be about 65% of the total hop oil. Adam Wendel, MD, You've got limonene, linalool, geraniol, humulene, caryophyllene, farnesine. Farnesine is actually kind of rare. Adam Wendel, MD, But those, all those, those, those, we call them the big seven, but those big seven together are about 97 to 99% by mass of the hop oil fraction of the aromatic fraction.

50:59SpeakerHowever, If you have two hops that are identical on that sort of traditional profile, and then you run them through a more detailed analysis using some really fun tools like a gas chromatograph with quantified time of flight, mass spectrometry, and sulfur chemiluminescence, you can start finding these other compounds, these other peaks that are not labeled in the industry standard. We found one that was a differentiator between a hop called Sabro and a hop called Mosaic.

51:29SpeakerAnd anybody in the industry would tell you that those two things smell very, very differently. But when we did the analysis, the big seven were, you know, for all intents and purposes, the same. But they smelled completely different. The one peak that we found that was really, really responsible for the difference in these things, because they smell completely different, was at 0.0001 parts per trillion.

51:56SpeakerOkay, so we're not even talking about percent. We're not even talking about parts per million. We're not talking about parts per billion. We're talking about parts per quadrillion. So it's tiny fractions that make this huge difference in how you experience the aroma of the hop. And that to me is really exciting because nobody else bothered because they figured it can't be that important. But as Max will probably tell you, and a lot of you know, is that very small tweaks to the chemical balance makes things smell and taste very, very different.

52:30SpeakerSo it's really exciting. And we're really excited to be able to start digging into this. The problem is that our industry, in terms of hops, and I see this as well in cannabis, Thank you for joining us today.

53:03SpeakerSo we've had to do is build and I've been very, very lucky and very feel very privileged by by the board and the company giving me the resources and allowing me to build a team to create a system where we basically characterize our hops using sensory and create a sensory lexicon. All right, so we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started.

53:31SpeakerSo we're going to go ahead and get started.

53:55SpeakerOh, you live in Amsterdam. Okay. Definitely citrus. Got you. I'm with you. So someone definitely be different. Someone from Florida or Georgia is going to experience when you say citrus, they're probably going to go straight to orange oranges. You talk to somebody who is in The Amalfi Coast of Italy or in Northern Spain, they might start thinking about lemons. You talk to somebody in the Philippines, they're going to think calamansi or calamondin.

54:22SpeakerIf you think if you're in Japan, they're going to go yuzu. And yes, those are all citrusy, but they are very, very distinct aromatics and flavors. And they all share a lot of overlap, but there's very distinct things. So when we start talking about sensory descriptions, we need to agree on a term and say, okay, Even though when you smell this, this evokes memories of pancit with calamansi in the Philippines because you grew up there, like I did.

54:51SpeakerWe're going to use this one term to call it that. And so you have to convert your brain and remember what you're smelling so that we're all using the same term. And then we can assign a number to it to its intensity and its duration and so on and so forth. Creating a shared lexicon is the first thing you need to do for a good sensory program.

55:10SpeakerThen you can start looking at taking notes on it and adding to that. So when I say it's citrusy, but I detect notes of tangerine, mandarin, and navel oranges, as opposed to say yuzu or grapefruit or what have you, you can add qualifiers to it and basically increase the resolution of your data. I have it with citrus a lot that sometimes it'll be like, Thank you. Thank you.

55:35SpeakerThank you. Thank you.

55:59SpeakerSo if you, if you, if you, when you get really experienced in sensory, I find it fun, like, well, I find it fun. A lot of my housemates, my wife now, all think it's kind of obnoxious because I'm always just deconstructing smells, but it's really fun. Like I remember we got this, we got this, we had a, you know, bread and cheese night or meat and cheese night a couple, a couple of months ago.

56:23SpeakerAnd there was this one cheese that had this really distinctive characteristic. And she was like, what is it? It's like kind of musty, but it's not bad. I was like, oh yeah, that's concrete cellar. And she was like, how the hell do you do that? Like, well, that's my job. You know, like it smells like a concrete cellar. That's where it was aged in. Anyway, I digress a little bit here.

56:42SpeakerSo once you've got the shared lexicon, you can start, I call it, you know, integerizing or enumerating, but you can turn All right, so we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started. So we're going to go ahead and get started.

57:20SpeakerAdam Wendel, MD, MD, PhD, PhD, PhD, PhD, PhD, PhD, PhD

57:42SpeakerI'm going to get back to some of the stuff that Max was saying earlier. You'll see there's a tremendous amount of intra-strain or intra-cultivar variability.

58:10SpeakerThat's something that people need to realize because cannabis and hops or cannabis more so than hops because cannabis is an annual, hops is a perennial, exhibits a extremely strong G by E or genetics by environment response. And so depending on how it's grown, depending on what stressors are there, depending on what's around the environment, A clone from one mother will have a serious potential for smelling and tasting completely different and then probably having different psychotropic effects.

58:43SpeakerAnd so it's really important to be able to try to measure that and identify that. So we look at, I'm just going to go back through this list here, is like we look at characterizing our hops by using sensory and using lab data at the same time. So we take the hops, we smell them, All of that goes into the lab. Then we run them through an ODP.

59:05SpeakerIt's a basic olfactory port where you can smell it as it's going into the GC. And write down what you smell while the GC is pulling out the peaks, which I think is a really fun and cool tool. You can only do it about once a day because it's pretty intensive, like 60 minutes of just sitting there sniffing really intently. And you've got to do it fast.

59:25SpeakerBut you start to build up things. And we've discovered things by using this technique that we figured out what the peach ester is. And that makes hops smell peachy.

59:36SpeakerA peak that did not show up on our regular GC, so we had to run it through the Q-Talk to be able to figure out what it was. But anyway, that's fun. But what this does is it allows you to start seeing which compounds are responsible for which aromas on their own. But then also what other compounds are showing up at the same time that mix and interact with your sensome and those other compounds to give you a specific character.

1:00:03SpeakerSo one of the things that we've realized recently is that 3-mercaptohexanol, it's a thiol, it is very, very flavor inactive on its own. However, when you combine it in the right ratio with geraniol, linalool, And some other compounds, it can give you this incredible burst of tropical fruit flavor. In a different ratio though, it can give you grapefruit, which is really interesting. So a two to three ratio, I forget which order it is, will give you a Sauvignon Blanc Lychee character, whereas a three to two ratio will give you grapefruit.

1:00:41SpeakerAnd that's really interesting to me because it's not just the parts because the whole is greater than the sum of them. And it also depends very much on how it works with your experience and your sensory skills and how good your nose is. Then there's the other part of it, which is that people are blind. They get something called anosmia, where you just don't detect it. So I am, for example, I'm extremely sensitive to certain aromatics.

1:01:14SpeakerIn the beer world, it's diacetyl. I'm known for this. It's obnoxious because I tend to pick it up when other people don't even realize it's there. And I hate it. On the other hand, I cannot smell There's this cooked onion characteristic. And it's like fried onions or caramelized onions. And to some people, it's a combination of a couple different things, a thiol and then I think an aliphatic alcohol.

1:01:44SpeakerI can't detect it in beer. It's like, oh, this is a pleasantly rounded beer. Other people are spitting it out saying, this is disgusting. How can you drink that? And I'm like, well, good for me. But it's really important to realize that people have different blindnesses and sensitivities. And so figuring out what individual sensitivities and blindnesses are is very, very important when you're running a sensory program.

1:02:04SpeakerSo you need to be able to have correction factors. So if I say, oh my god, this is the worst smelling diacetyl-e beer ever, Probably take that with a grain of salt and compare it against how sensitive I was. What's my threshold for diacetyl? Whereas one of the guys I work with, if Tommy detects DMS, because he's so insensitive to it, and DMS is the Fritos or sort of cooked cream corn smell or cabbagey smell, if he detects it, It's probably very, very strong because he's very not sensitive to it.

1:02:42SpeakerAnyway, it's very useful to bear in mind that your panelists and your sensory people will have their own innate biases, either from experience or just because they have different anosmias and different sensitivities. There are compounds that work together to create a elevated sensory experience on a higher level of smell or a different smell. And there are compounds that will work against each other. So they will either mute each other or cancel each other out or in the wrong combination will smell pretty disgusting.

1:03:13SpeakerSo you can get one of my favorite examples is ethyl butyrate. It's an ester. It, at the right level, it smells like beautiful tropical fruit. However, once you get over a certain level, it starts to smell like baby vomit and rotting fruit. So it's a really delicate, delicate balance. So one of the things that I've been working on with my team, and I'm, you know, incredibly grateful for the people that work with me.

1:03:39SpeakerI've got this amazing organic chemist, and I've got this amazing sensory head and sensory team. We're really trying to make sure that we're capturing everything that makes up a hop and then also try to capture how people experience that and then trying to figure out what the numbers are, what are the actual compounds, what are going on and how those interact together to be able to provide this sensory experience.

1:04:06SpeakerIt's a tremendous amount of work, but it's really, really... Adam Pave, Ph.D.: Powerful in terms of what it's going to be allow us to to to do to describe these things. And these are the same compounds that are in cannabis. Adam Pave, Ph.D.: Hops and they have the same genes. They have the same expression. In fact, the entirety of the hops genome is contained within the cannabis genome, which is fun.

1:04:29SpeakerAdam Pave, Ph.D.: So we know that those genes are going to be expressing and they can lead to the same things. And so The exciting thing for me is that there's a lot of cross applicability of this. But one of the things that, so Max, one of the things that you were saying earlier that I kind of was interesting, but also a little concerned about is the industry's focus on potency, which I think we all agree is not what we really wanna focus on, but it's also the,

1:05:05SpeakerAll right, so we're going to talk a little bit more about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk a little bit more about what we're going to talk about today.

1:05:26SpeakerI don't know. I don't, I haven't seen enough data on, on what the impact of those compounds are for like sort of pharmacokinetically or, or, or psychosomatically or not psychosomatically looking for just the, the psychotropic effects of these things or the, or the therapeutic effects of these, of these compounds. So I can't speak to that, but I do know from our experience that there's an incredible amount of individual variety and, and All right, so we're going to move on to the next slide.

1:05:59SpeakerSo we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide.

1:06:24SpeakerAll of that allowed our group to be one of the leading sort of hop sensory groups and hop providers in the industry was that we celebrated the variety between lots rather than trying to blend them all together and make one true to type citra or true to type mosaic or one lot of hops out of all of them so there was an average. We actually kept them separate and keep them separate and allow brewers to pick and choose what they want There's beauty in the variety.

1:06:53SpeakerThere's beauty in the difference. Celebrate the differences between things. At the same time, we also have to be aware that in terms of quality and for customer expectations, that we do need to establish what you call typicity. And we call this true to type character. So it's like, OK, this is an amazing lot of citra, but it's got 50% more oil than normal. It's way less bitter than normal.

1:07:19SpeakerAnd it smells incredibly citrusy, but it's so much, it's a spike so much in one direction, aromatically, that we don't feel that it's a good representation of this hop. Now, what's really fun is I now have a field study program where we can say, okay, what the hell happened in that field? Because that's really cool. And we can sort of figure out sort of what's going on in the metabolome, what's going on to the impacts from the environment and farm practice to create those differences.

1:07:44SpeakerAnd we like to share, we give that back to our growers so that they can decide whether they want to Do that again. So do you mind if I comment? No, no, please. So when I was giving the glorified example of the cannabis sommelier by describing cannabis types with an appellation, a terroir, all these things, and I think Jeremy got concerned by that from a medical patient perspective.

1:08:15SpeakerI just want to be very clear. That we really have to compartmentalize how massive and how vast the cannabis industry is and how there's so many different things and levels that we can and are talking about, which all have crossover. What I was describing in that sense was something that can truly help the family farmers who practice agroforestry and regenerative cannabis who are being threatened by big marijuana.

1:08:51SpeakerAnd it's their ability to prove how either cannabis is special in very real ways, similarly to viniculture. Whereas where I live in Colorado, right here, right now, there's no such thing as a cannabis appellation. And there's no way in hell you could even attempt cannabis to law because in the state of Colorado, you have to grow all of your flowers indoor by law. It is against the law to grow cannabis outside in Colorado, both retail and medical.

1:09:24SpeakerThe only cannabis you can legally grow outside is hemp. And that even goes for medical marijuana patients themselves. And now, because I don't care too much about the law, and I believe that my cannabis grows way better outside than it would inside, I grow my weed outside. But it's not lawful. And so you don't have that here. And so the other thing that we don't have is the system of taking care of patients in such a legitimate and caring way that Jeremy described.

1:09:55SpeakerWell, that doesn't exist. It's starting to, though. It is. It is starting. Okay. Okay. When all I'm saying is, you know, in California, what Jeremy described sound like Aunt Zelda in her work. If I had a medical patient, a family member, I would want them to not get advice from a bud tender in any just regular old dispensary. I would want them in a program like what you're talking about, because that's what they need.

1:10:22SpeakerPeople do need cannabis coaches to explain how vast and complex this stuff is for them. And the reality is because being a bud tender does not require in most places training or certification. You have stoners who are passionate about getting high in the position of a pharmacist helping medical patients select their cannabis as the majority of the situation. So yes, of course, what Jeremy's talking about, what Aunt Zelda does, it does exist, but on such a small, small scale that how could I help the masses better understand the complexity of cannabis by overcoming the strain name dilemma?

1:11:09SpeakerSo I did a little video, it's on YouTube, where I went secret shopping for Blue Dream in Denver, Colorado. And in an hour, I bought six different types of Blue Dream from four different dispensaries, brought them back to the office, and I'm showing you Dr. Justin Dunn, Dr. Justin Dunn, Dr. Justin Dunn, Dr. Justin Dunn, Dr.

1:11:50SpeakerThe interpreting process and methodology is actually helping patients because moms who have to shop for cannabis for their kids who are done listening to untrained and uneducated, uncertified bud tenders who don't know what they're talking about can actually engage in their senses. The nose knows what the body needs. You are physically attracted. Your physiology is attracted to the medicine that you need. Which is how and why we do teach the cannabis experimentation phase by helping people first compartmentalize the fact that there are really stimulating types.

1:12:26SpeakerThere really are some more sedative types. And there's also a spectrum of types in between those. And so if we can help you understand how to intimately engage your flower, even in a dispensary setting where there's no appellation, there's no te wa, typicity doesn't even matter. You just need to buy something that's going to work for you. We're so proud that interpreting helps medical patients do that in that way when they don't have the type of guidance that you're talking about that I wish everyone truly did have.

1:12:55SpeakerSo I just wanted to make sure, I just wanted to make that clear and also say, Nick, you and I have to hang out, dude. Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with this. I have a question for you, Nick. Sure. How many terpenes are found in hops? Oh, God. Oh, you don't know? No, I mean, it's, well, we haven't identified them all. But the ones that are identified is what we're talking about.

1:13:26SpeakerOh, in the hundreds. Okay, because cannabis only has 156 have been identified. That have been identified, but they also don't have access to our database. And that may be something that we can change. But it is... Cannabis will have more than 156. I was working with Chauvin Rouge, and they were able to find two or three new ones that weren't in the cannabis database. They're scent and flavor folks.

1:13:58SpeakerOne other question is, what kind of analysis were you doing to identify the headspace of these terpenes in hops? So we have a couple of different tools. We have a pretty sensitive GCMS that allows us to exclude certain sections of the chromatogram so we can zoom in so we don't get confounding effects from very high concentrations of compounds like myrcene. It's about 65% or 50 to 60% of the, actually 50 to 80% of the oil profile of hops is myrcene, but it's actually not very relevant for beer because it doesn't make it through the process.

1:14:36SpeakerSo we have to exclude that. And so that gives us a bit more resolution so we can look at the remaining, you know, 30 to 40%. Are you using GCFID MS? We use GC, FID, ECD for some of the visceral diketones. And then we have some other sensors as well that are more than FID. But yes, that's one of the tools that we use. I've got four.

1:14:59SpeakerWe use SPME as well. Yes. So I've got SPME, FID, ECD, and then we've got the LC systems. So liquid chromatography systems that we use for the polyphenols and the cannabinoids. We've been doing this for 30 years with cannabis. So that's why I was familiar with these. So yeah, so we're using the Agilent 73 something or other. And we have the, it's a SPME type system with the Gerstle twister stir bars.

1:15:31SpeakerAnd so it's a sorbent little stir bar that you take the headspace. And then we have a quantified time of flight A module on that as well as a sulfur chemoluminescence luminescence detector on that one on that particular one. So we can look up the thiols, thiolates. You guys are slightly more sophisticated than my lab was, but I've been doing it for 30 years.

1:15:56BubblemanToday's flex is brought to you by Nick Ziegler.

1:16:01SpeakerNo, it's, it's, it's, it's, I do not intend this to be a flex. It's more of a.

1:16:05BubblemanNo, no, I know. I know. Listen, it was just, that shit's on another level, dude. I'm just saying.

1:16:10SpeakerWe, we appreciate you. I have a question for you. Oh, sorry. May I very quickly make a comment there? Yeah, go for it. I just want to appreciate the range of instrumentation Nick just described and that You know, ultimately, when we're looking at compliance testing or the kinds of aroma testing that we have in cannabis, I want to point out the clear distinction between that level of rigor other than, Sam, what you have been involved with for so long and others.

1:16:36SpeakerBut really quickly, I just wanted to celebrate Nick being here. This actually comes through a chain of conversations which actually started with Rob Clark. Rob and Mojave were talking passionately about hops long, long time ago. And we started reading all kinds of folks in the hop space and having these great conversations. And then eventually there's this amazing man, Nick, who's showing up in all these podcasts and who has the most informed, mind blowing, absolutely precision oriented sensory at scale.

1:17:10SpeakerAnd it's just I want to celebrate that anybody who hasn't had a chance to hear Nick and all of the other forums that he's been airing this kind of content. It is just a series of epiphanies and trying to understand some of the mysteries in the aroma conversation around cannabis. So I just, to me, Marcus, that you've facilitated this today is just such an awesome deal. Like I literally think when you bring a Nick into our space, it's like the entire space moves in a really healthy way, much like Max and all of the efforts you've been doing to like really build a rigorous approach to sensory and then to, And I apologize if earlier there's maybe a misunderstanding.

1:17:49SpeakerThe one thing I really want to reject and push back on is this, we get too codified about particular effects and the correlation to scent. And of course, like, even if we're looking at monoterpenes, we know that sesquiterpenes have all kinds of truly valid therapeutic contributions, as well as all of the things that we cannot smell. And so while the nose knows certain things, I just think there's a line where we're talking about therapeutic use and more personalized targeted effects.

1:18:17SpeakerI personally am concerned about trying to link those at this juncture. There's just so much research and evidence needed to support that kind of stuff. And I think that there's actually a very simple approach to doing what you just said, you know, only exists out here. And it's like it can happen anywhere cannabis flower exists with the correct education and meeting patients where they are with the flower that's available.

1:18:41SpeakerThere is a process by which to teach somebody about titration and dosage, the different delivery systems, a very initial sort of perspective about evidence-based pharmacology, and then sort of really support through just gentle counseling and many intervals, somebody who's cannabis naive, a new and lifelong sustainable relationship with this plant that we all love, but not everybody has been able to access. And that's one thing I am really passionate about, but I will also say there's a bunch of evidence that's on the horizon right now.

1:19:13SpeakerDr. Aidy Ray is publishing this year the data from the last two years of Cultivation Classic. We've talked about this once before, but I think one important part of that evidence is that we see absolutely no correlation whatsoever in what is, I believe, the most rigorous at-scale study of contemporary products in this market with a lot of scientists on the back end. Between specific terpene dominance and effects, which is one thing that we see a lot of people running with.

1:19:45SpeakerOf course, I talked with Ethan frequently about these themes. He actually has a new bit of research from Johns Hopkins last year that was about limonene dominance actually correlating with positive mood inducement and things. But in any case, it's almost that I just feel right now it's enough to simply move into a maturity around sensory science in the space. And that's a massive contribution and just like a mind blowing set of implications.

1:20:09SpeakerAnd as you said, Max, eloquently, it's like, you know, there's no better way to support the craft farmer that I can find at this moment to truly differentiate the novel output of something that has like intricate and nuanced and special sort of aroma contribution and aroma therapeutic potential. But I'm excited to kind of also simultaneously with the kind of rigor that Nick is describing an analytical process, And then that correlating with human health and sort of clinical research, be able to advance that other side of the conversation in a mature way.

1:20:42SpeakerI'm frustrated with the industry at this point because God, it was seven years ago. I set up a similar system, what you're described at Pharma with There was stimulating properties and there were sedative properties. And I tell you, I don't buy it anymore. I just, I've seen too many contrary examples. It's too much individual basis that is involved to be able to extrapolate in that way, despite the elegance of and simplicity of that notion.

1:21:10SpeakerI just, yes. I would like to say that when we did blind testing, double blind testing with 12 subjects, They were all pretty much in agreement on what kind of an effect it was creating. We were dosing 100% pure THC 25 milligrams with just a spike of a single monoterpene. And everybody was in agreement. But we were doing it strictly recreational. We're not focused on medical at all.

1:21:49SpeakerWe've had hundreds of judges with lots of flower samples. And I think the process you just described is a way more refined and easy way to look at the effect of a particular compound. But we've just looked at the products that are in the market. Gosh, it's just amazing. Like we see a real incredible scatterplot and the kinds of effects described. However, one, here's one very important data point.

1:22:12SpeakerThe most important takeaway probably from a human enjoyment perspective when double blinded and, you know, going through this sort of random experience, which AD led for years. It was that actually aroma intensity was the single greatest factor for user enjoyment. And so aroma diversity and aroma intensity must be characterized. It's just such a vital task. So I'm just truly grateful to everybody working on that. And Sam, God knows we wouldn't be working that without you and also without Ethan and Rob and Mojave, who have postulated some new work also in a recent Cannabis Business Times article about archetypal aromatherapeutic categories and But I truly think, I just hope that we're all getting to celebrate a bit and the riches that gets to spill out from an ecosystem with the kind of instrumentation Nick has and the real possibilities for us to really shine light on what we all know to be like the most precious expressions of this and not let the commodity pressure And immature early stage crazy capitalist scaling of the industry, you know, totally muddy what is actually, you know, this like amazing lineage and tradition of craft output.

1:23:26SpeakerIn any case, I've said a lot. I love medical cannabis. I'm glad to help with it. But recreational is my interest that's close to my heart. I want to know how can I create All the different effects and how can I increase their potency, really, to be honest. So, and Jeremy, I also hope that, or maybe I'll try to explain it in this way. We do not teach that if you smell this smell, it will have this effect.

1:24:04SpeakerWe don't teach that. And a lot of people actually think that a large premise of interpreting is that we teach people how to smell for particular terpene types, and then based off of those smells, assume what the effect will be based off of the research based on those terpenes. And we actually, in our book, we explain how and why that doesn't work, and it can't work that way, and that it's way more complex than that.

1:24:34SpeakerAnd an idea I want to give you is how awesome it is that interpreting works for people who actually have anosmia, which is something that Nick was talking about, which is the inability to smell. And so people who have lost their first cranial nerve and who cannot even smell these terpenes, they're still accurately able to categorize the generality of cannabis. And so in a general sense, You know, a flower.

1:25:05SpeakerHave you noticed that when you have a heavy head cold that you don't get as high from your cannabis? No, but I have noticed that I don't get as high from my cannabis if I'm experiencing fear or being cold. If it's snowing outside and I'm smoking a joint, it is really hard for me to feel that. Both Rob and I found that, and many of my friends when I've questioned them have told me that if they have a heavy head cold and they can't really smell the cannabis, they don't get as high.

1:25:41SpeakerI don't know too much about that, but just finishing this quick example that I wanted to for Jeremy, you know, in general, it's really incredible that there's types of cannabis that are really dense from a calyx perspective. And that for whatever reason, these really dense flower types have fewer pistils in both the amount of them and the length of them. So we call it petite pistillate. So these petite inflorescences that are dense, that you feel at the maxillary gland, when you smell it, you feel the smell here, not here.

1:26:23SpeakerAnd that if you have the ability to smell without picking out certain terpenes, it kind of smells like leathers or chocolates, tobaccos, or mushrooms. So when you have these deep, dense, rich smell tones with these deep, dense, rich flowers that are really dense with petite pistolet, In general, those herbs affect mostly nine out of 10, nine out of 10 people generally as kind of a sedative stony effect.

1:26:55SpeakerAnd so I hear you that you're connecting physical morphology again to affect in a way that I personally am uncomfortable with. I totally hear you. I also wasn't sure if you meant bract or calyx, but I really do feel that when you start to make this leap between physical morphology and human clinical perspective. There's just this, it's a bridge too far. That's literally my pushback. If you can illustrate through incredible evidence and substantiate that sort of notion at scale, that would be miraculous.

1:27:27SpeakerBut I've seen evidence to the contrary and feel like it's a mistake to follow that path. There's too much chemical inventory and too many diverse features in the ECS tone of individuals. Yeah, and I think, you know, there's there's parts in here where we actually show and explain how and why this method on occasion doesn't work. But if we did have the opportunity for me to hang out with Nick and you, Jeremy, and actually the rest of you, if you guys want to come to this party, I would love to set up this demonstration Where I would allow you to connect the minuteness of an inflorescence pattern that flowers that have larger spacing just in the cola, they're just a little bit more fluffy, that have a little bit longer pistillate and a little bit more of it that generally have citrusy or gassy tones that you generally feel in the higher part of the trigeminal nerve, the olfactory bulb.

1:28:35SpeakerEric Spellman, MD, Are generally stimulating herb types. And for people who are really lost in cannabis, who are going by strain name or lab tests that won't tell you an effect type, or aren't privileged enough to be in a network like you who can guide patients, that it is a system that on a daily basis, people from around the world, when they learn it, say, this changed my life.

1:28:57SpeakerBecause I now have so much more control over my ability to shop for what I'm looking for and actually get it versus going to a dispensary and saying, I'm looking for Blue Dream, 23% THC. And, and, and, and not getting what they're looking for. And so it's, it's a fluidity method. And I can understand if you haven't experienced it firsthand, if you haven't had an opportunity to engage it and bear witness to it and actually try it that, um, I could really see where you're coming from that.

1:29:29SpeakerSo Max, if I may, I just, it's a funny thing. So, you know, I'm a cultivator and I've been directing for this last five year period, a facility called proof cultivar. I have done a continuous process of cultural discovery whenever I'm able to. And we just go through tremendous amounts of diversity. Here's one of the G times the interactions that I'm fascinated with that kind of throws a little wrench into this.

1:29:52SpeakerPersonally, if you take, say, a classic Afghani and you have a room full of that, you're going to see a more likely stable aroma profile in that room. However, There is something that's occurring in a kind of chemical resonance similar to like say root exudates or chemical signaling in the root zone. We have chemical signaling in the aerial tissue. And what we're seeing is if I bring a terpenylene dominant variety into that room of Afghanis, suddenly the Afghanis are starting to express terpenylene.

1:30:22SpeakerRecently, so the facility has gone in these waves. I've been bringing in plants that have a high amount of linalool. There's one plant in particular called peppermint agave. Suddenly, linalool is showing up in all of these other varieties that are grown adjacent to that variety. This kind of like, that's like one of thousands and thousands in the transcriptome of the kinds of dynamics driving really exotic and unique expressions of chemistry and what is a consistent morphological presentation.

1:30:53SpeakerLike I can show you flowers that look very, very similar that have an incredible range when we're looking at analytical R&D results. And so it's just, again, it's that I'm uncomfortable with the notion that physical morphology is going to be substantiated by strong evidence in terms of human effect. That is literally, there's almost nothing that could be said short of really strong evidence at this point in my career after 30 years of cultivation and Really using my own efforts to have sensory very immature early and now thankfully being exposed to people like you and Nick and many others.

1:31:29SpeakerReally, Lauren Salazar and New Belgium program was hugely influential. These are the people that are now helping to open the door to a mature evaluation. But again, I just think sensory is its own element, which is amazing and remarkable. But that leap is heroic. Jeremy, does the Afghan have the synthase to produce terpylene or whatever? I forget the compound you said. In other words, the plants have to possess the synthase.

1:32:01SpeakerOtherwise, they can't just make it out of nothing. Exactly. So clearly they have that potential, but it's so amazing, Sam. I tell you, I've grown so many different kinds of Afghanica over my life. We all have, I'm sure. I have never seen terpenylene in anything but a tiny, tiny amount, a tiny titer in a classic Afghanica. We're talking like a really squat, compact, early maturing, heavy yielding, gorgeous plant.

1:32:28SpeakerBut so clearly the potential in the synthesis is there. But then through chemical signaling is being evoked. And obviously, a lot of controls need to be employed to describe that interaction. I do not have that data in place. But through observation of our chemical analytical output, it's been remarkable to see varieties I've cultivated for years completely changing. Of course, I'm also doing a lot of agronomy trials.

1:32:52SpeakerCurrently at Proof, we have a room with four different kinds of Aaron Ward, Sort of inputs for fertilizer and media. We have lots of different photo biology projects underway. You know, obviously light spectrum intensity is actually as large of a variable as any that Max, something you said earlier too, you know, I reject also this notion that terroir is not indoors. I understand if we take the classical French terroir and we're speaking really about minerality in the kind of medium substrate the plants are growing in.

1:33:20SpeakerAnd environmental effects and stress. That, the environmental effects and stress, even including things like noble rot. And Botrytis is influenced in the progression of particular aroma. At the end of the day, I'm absolutely manipulating. I have 16 different environments where I can really create different media types, different mineral inputs, different biology inputs, and different structure, as well as different irrigation practices, different VPD. points different sort of gas exchange points and overall controlled environment strategy that very much can evoke a range of g times e and or i like this other word phenotypic plasticity you know that the cannabis is so remarkably plastic in the sense that these tiny tiny changes result in significant differences in the chemical inventory um it was really like almost nine years ago now when i first gave a the exact same cutting For growers in Portland, and this is way before the grow off and way before I think these conversations are going on, we saw one sample with 28 milligrams per gram of beta myrcene, another with zero, the same variety.

1:34:27SpeakerAnd those are really different effect types. And they looked, I would say, morphologically pretty tight, similar to when you see grow off data. Jake and Sam have published images of the flowers. And there's range in that morphology. But in terms of the effect type, you would see a far greater range in the chemistry. And that's still a fascinating piece to me. So, you know, and I have seen really just mountains of data now.

1:34:51SpeakerWe have so much chemical analytic data, but the problem is we don't have it at the level that Nick does. And then we don't have mature sensory to sort of connect the dots. There's this giant gap that I think you guys are actually working to make happen right now. And Colin, you were interrupted earlier, brother. Sorry to...

1:35:06Collin PalmerSo I just wanted to jump in and just say, you know, a lot of the things, you know, the crop steering techniques you're mentioning and the suggested biotransformations of the targeted, you know, terpenes that you're trying to either, you know, you know, you're after, so to speak, or the suggested influence through different varietals in the same room and environment. Do you think, you know, just in general, a lot of the controls play a major role just environmentally.

1:35:34Collin PalmerAlso, I'm finding root zone temperatures are playing a major role in how expressions are really truly coming out. And that's an area that was really kind of just not talked about for the longest time in our world. But, you know, going back to what Nick was touching on, it's so important to touch on every little bit of flavor and intent here. And, you know, it's I agree with you, Jeremy.

1:36:03Collin PalmerI think that we're We've gone really far and to try to try to humanize all of this and we're like yeah we got to put our thumb on that and understand it um but there are certain things we have to remind ourselves it gets dangerous and and we have to find great ways to articulate the massive hexagon and rubius you know that this actually is and all the different touch points that we You know, Nick, you know, you beautifully said this.

1:36:31Collin PalmerAnd I think, you know, Jeremy, I don't want to go harping on it again, but you eloquently kind of explained how important the information truly is at mass. Like we we talk about very compartmentalized things in terms of the flavor and effect. And we're in that sweet spot where we have people like Nick. I'm doing similar research as Nick right now, and I have been for quite some time.

1:36:55Collin PalmerSo I find his work, I want to spend a day with you or a weekend if we can. And just talk, you know, and and you know, it's it's what I'm trying to say is I think that it's really great that we're able to talk about these things. I think, Max, you have an incredible perspective on on education. You know, Jeremy's got a different angle and a different eye for science and cultivation.

1:37:21Collin PalmerSo I think together, you know, talking about this dialog is really what's needed. But the articulation of all this is really important right now. And that's the most important thing is just laying it on the table. So I really love what you're doing, man. And I love what you're doing, Nick. And I love everyone in this room. I think it's just, it's exciting. I don't get enough of this conversation and always thanks to Marcus, right?

1:37:52SpeakerSo I appreciate that and I appreciate this really awesome dialogue as well. This is really fantastic. Jeremy, my analogy for what you were describing, I call it middle school girl syndrome. I don't know why they all want to be the same. But if you take one new girl, she goes to a new school, right? So you just take one cultivar type and put her in a room full of other cultivar types, how and why they seem to assimilate and try to strive to be like each other and share each other's characteristics is a very real and true All right, so let's talk a little bit about cannabis.

1:38:37SpeakerCannabis is a bizarre, fantastic, and complex cannabis thing that deserves celebration, right? It's not restricted to cannabis at all. So it happens in bacteria. It's called quorum sensing. And quorum sensing is now known to happen in plants as well. And so that means that plants can basically sense their environment. And why wouldn't they sense the presence of other phytochemicals,

1:39:04SpeakerAnd so quorum sensing happens in bacteria. It happens in yeast, happens in cellular organizms. There's no reason to think why it doesn't happen in plants too. And I think that's a manifestation of this. This is called quorum sensing. Mark, that's definitely been proven in trees, particularly old growth forests, relatively recently, I guess within the last five years or so. Correct. But you just hit on something that I think is really important when we talk about the variance and expression of these things.

1:39:38SpeakerYou mentioned earlier that they all have the genes for these terpenes, for these compounds. I put a link to a paper earlier on about how the phenotypic variation is actually not reflected in the genotype of cannabis. And what's interesting is that they do not have deletes. They're not missing these genes. In fact, I believe the genome was copied over four times in cannabis. I may be misspeaking here.

1:40:11SpeakerBut there's a tremendous amount of deletes Aaron Wojcicki, Ph.D.: Thank you. Aaron Wojcicki, Ph.D.: Thank you. Aaron Wojcicki, Ph.D.: Thank you. Aaron Wojcicki, Ph.D.: Thank you.

1:40:37SpeakerAll right, so we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide.

1:41:06SpeakerAaron Waite, MD, But what we saw was that the THC levels dropped and CBD levels, the ratio changed. So we were actually able to get less destroyed or plants destroyed because of noncompliance and hemp. But we did see that there was a market change. And the only difference from the cultivation from the year prior We have all the data on the farm management, on irrigation, on the water profile, on fertilization, fertigation, PAR and PBFD.

1:41:39SpeakerI don't have vapor pressure deficit, but that's because they were outdoor. But we saw that The wildfires and the haze or potentially any sort of the air pollutants led to a substantial difference in expression. And when we did account for any pollution of the smoke on the plants, we've seen in hops that if a given bind gets attacked by spider mites, the rest of the fields freaks out and it bumps up its beta acid production because they recognize what those are.

1:42:13SpeakerI really want to see some work on whether it's insect pheromones themselves, There's some new startups doing some really cool work on this in the Bay Area. Or if you see, if it's a stem borer or a piercing or sucking insect that attacks the plant and it's a physiological response, because we see similar stress responses from wind damage and hail. So it's not great for the crops.

1:42:39SpeakerThey don't look very good, but man, do they smell freaking amazing after that. And so what's interesting is whether it's a physical response or... A simple phytochemical signaling response. I think it'd be really interesting. Nick, are hops wind pollinated or insect pollinated? They are insect pollinated. Oh, because cannabis is wind pollinated. Well, you can get wind pollination for hops, but they're primarily, I mean, so the pollen gets carried away, but the way the hop cones are, all of the bracts and all that, they cover, and the petioles, they cover up the glands and they cover up the pistils.

1:43:19SpeakerThose actually don't come out from underneath it. So it looks like a pine cone that hasn't really fully opened yet. I don't know about that. I grow a wide variety of hops. I grow a ton of tobacco. I also specialize in psychedelic and psychoactive cacti types. Have hundreds of them. Yeah. That's for cactus. I mean, yeah. I don't know if you can see what we got going on over here, but all sorts of stuff.

1:43:42SpeakerBut lots of poison path herbs. And here's the deal. Like, I got little videos on my Instagram, not Trichome Institute Instagram, Max Montrose Instagram, where I show you the flowering structures of my cannabis plants growing next to my hop plants. And when that pistolet is receiving pollen, it does so in an anemophily way because they are wind pollinated. And you know that because the male hop plant, they are dioecious.

1:44:16SpeakerIts flowers open up downward the same way cannabis does. And that's to dump pollen from the wind down onto the pistolet, especially allowing the wind to blow it off. And generally, like when I've grown my hops, there's no cone when it's receiving pollen. It looks identical to cannabis in the sense that there's- Okay, yeah, that's a fair point. You are completely correct. I misspoke on that. We do have some, there are some pollinators, but you're right.

1:44:47SpeakerFrom that perspective, it is primarily wind pollinated. The other reason you would also know that it's not a wind pollinator I'm going to turn it back over to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:45:22SpeakerSomething interesting that you said, Jeremy, that I think would be a fun conversation is the idea of indoor terroir. And I think what you were talking about, I have to agree with, because what you're talking about is how the environment plays a role on the outcome of the plant. Well, of course, that's going to happen in an indoor or outdoor setting, period. Sheetrock terpenes. No questions asked.

1:45:46SpeakerRight. Like, I think we could agree on that one. Right. But is that Tewa? And I want to jump in on this one. I'll let you finish. I'm going to throw one out there and then I expect this to be a groovy conversation. So.

1:46:09SpeakerWhen it comes to terroir, for example, Cabernet Sauvignon from the Russian river of California Sonoma region has a distinctive typicity. So the taste that is of typical from a Sonoma cab is due exclusively to its environment. So whatever reason that whatever the mineral content is, whatever the rock content is, however that soil is composed, that particular region of the world causes an environmental effect on the outcome of the wine that you can taste that's distinctive from all other geographies.

1:47:07SpeakerSo it's a geographic reason why the outcome of the flavor from that type of grape tastes different when you grow the same type of grape somewhere else. And there are in the world of wine, there are two types of Appalachian. One is called Trips and the other is called Lisbon. And the Trips Agreement And that to me makes the most sense for cannabis because it's exclusively based off of describing the cannabis as quality, characteristic, and reputation, all of which you can easily describe a particular type from someone's farm.

1:47:50SpeakerBut the Lisbon Agreement Is a quality or characteristic that is due exclusively and essentially to its geographic origin. And so from that perspective, when you grow grapes outside, you have a vintage, you have the flavor of the environment that year. And when you grow, when you produce alcohol in a warehouse and it's distilled, it's a process that you have indoors that isn't affected by the environment. OK, I'm going to have to jump in here, Max.

1:48:37SpeakerSo that's that's factually incorrect. So I'm going to I'll go backwards through the distillation argument is that Barrel aging, if you're doing barrel aging, that is tremendously impacted by the local weather. And it's tremendously impacted by how the oak that used in the barrels was grown and where it came from and what sort of stressors, what sort of lignocellulose levels it produced, because that'll lead to the amount of vanillin that comes out of it and some of the oak lactones.

1:49:10SpeakerSo there's a tremendous impact of this. And so when I start criticizing terroir, All right, so we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide.

1:49:43SpeakerHowever, the classic French opinion of terroir is a shitty heuristic. It's a model that is incomplete. And it's, from my perspective, with the modern analytical tools that we have, it's kind of Aaron Waight, Amy Van Dyken, Aaron Waight, Amy Van Dyken, Aaron Waight, Amy Van Dyken, Aaron Waight,

1:50:24SpeakerHowever, is it purely due to the environment, the natural environment, excuse me, the geography and the meteorological environment that they're in? Or might there be some differences because the farmers, in order to get the best yields and the best character, have to grow it in a specific way because of those things? So if you look at Bordeaux, right? Which is definitely a part of TAWA. It's not exclusively to the environment.

1:50:48SpeakerIt's how the environment and the farmer grow. All of these people work together to produce something that is recognizable. The farm management aspect of it is something that has been historically ignored. And the sommeliers and winos, I mean, wine geeks, I work with a couple of guys and we always get into arguments about this over beer. It's great. But if you look at Bordeaux, for example, or some of the other classic French reasons, There is no appreciable difference in soil types in drainage and in that region, but there's tremendous variability between the north end of the south end or how the growers grow it.

1:51:24SpeakerAnd that's what leads to the distinction between those things. And so what they've done is they've basically said, if it's from this region, you can call it a Bordeaux, right? That's, you know, denomination of origin, you know, whatever, DOMS or however you want to say it.

1:51:43SpeakerThey've also established upper limits and lower limits for the various characteristics that those wines exhibit to the consumer. They've been doing it for so long, they know they're not going to be well out of range, but there is a range. And when we talk about sort of cannabis variation, your Blue Dream example is a fantastic one, ignoring for the moment the fact that it's very likely that people got different All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

1:52:16SpeakerSo we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

1:52:34SpeakerHere is the average results, or here are the results of all the Blue Dream we could find. This is the upper limit for these terpenes and stuff that we discovered. This is the lower limit for these terpenes. This is the upper limit for THC and the other cannabinoids. This is the lower limit. And if it falls within this range, so we typically take the median value or the mean value.

1:52:59SpeakerSo it's really the median value. And then we will go up to two standard deviations outside of that. Any more is too far outside of type to be considered that variety. And so we use that in hops. If you were to look at doing that with cannabis, I think that it could be done similarly. Or the alternative is you don't worry about that true to type. So here's the blue dream core, but this is a piney expression of it.

1:53:28SpeakerThis is a citrusy expression of it. This is a fruit expression. This is a terpenylene and osamine heavy expression of it. However you want to do that. But I think it's totally possible for us to create the error bars or the upper limits for that true to type characteristic. Aaron Weissman, Family Farms, Family Farms, Family Farms, Family Farms, Family Farms

1:54:09SpeakerJason Cronin, CFO Alpenglow Farms, which by the way, they're in my book, they're in my online course. I use them as the example because I love Craig Johnson and his family and the way they grow cannabis. I just, it's the best. They're so true to the earth. They care about sequestering carbon. I mean, the way that Craig is passionate about his soil When he touches it and smells it and shares it with you and make sure that that's the cannabis he's growing in, not some Fox Farm bag of stuff you could get, right?

1:54:41SpeakerSo in the sense of viniculture, in the sense of growing plants outside, Think about that outside, in the sun, in a region, in Southern Humboldt, with a farmer who understands his terroir and grows towards it, when he produces a variety of cannabis that he came up with called Coyote Blue, and he grows Coyote Blue in this region, in this way, with these environment and keeps that consistency, that's the true to strain type that I believe you're talking about.

1:55:15SpeakerAnd to me, That's cannabis and it's cannabis with an Appalachian, with Tewa, with Topicity. It's recognizable and it deserves a whole hell of a lot of praise compared to where I live. Because if you take a clone of Craig's Coyote Blue and you give it to a standard dispensary operation in the state of Colorado, They will turn it into a mother. They'll clone it out. And maybe this month they'll use a mixture of cocoa core with vermiculite and perlite and all this other stuff, and then just feed it synthetic nutrients.

1:55:56SpeakerAnd that's, it's the same strain, right? It's, it's coyote blue and coyote blue is being grown in a warehouse. And not as an agriculture, but as a commodity. And so obviously, when you compare the difference of those two flowers, they're going to be quite different. But from a TAWA perspective and what TAWA is and means, I believe Craig Johnson has TAWA. And I believe the way he's growing cannabis is within a TAWA.

1:56:28SpeakerAnd I think he can express what that TAWA is. I think he can explain it to people. And I think that's what can help make his cannabis special and preserve what he's doing and keep his family farm strong and doing what he's doing. Whereas the Coyote Blue that I would get at the dispensary, that's just, I mean, factory made warehouse weed in Colorado. It's hard for me to say, oh yeah, that's got a terroir to it too.

1:56:55SpeakerI'm like, no, it was grown in a certain way. And that certain way does have an output on it, on the final product. But is that what terroir is and means? When terroir, traditionally in the French term and how it affects viniculture, Is really particularly based on how the natural native environment plays a vintage role on the plant types versus some. So Max, I'm going to jump here too.

1:57:24SpeakerI love, I think you've done a really great service to the classicist definition of terroir. And this is a really important idea that we have orbited in the cannabis space for a long time. And I think you've really done that idea of service. Like Nick said earlier, I do agree that We're at a point where we have different tools and capabilities. First off, I don't want to be cast as I think warehouse weed is good.

1:57:50SpeakerIn general, I just want to share with you that I'm passionate, like actually the very first regenerative farm award was at the Cultivation Classic that I've founded. And then it went to the Emerald Cup. And I've been working extensively with Jesse Dodd and others to support the Most meaningful movement in agriculture and outdoor field scale agriculture and really working with materials in the local region and just have a huge passion for that.

1:58:16SpeakerBut I'm producing 50, well, 45 to 50 harvests a year in 16 environments with a huge amount of diverse variables. This is not at all like a warehouse in Colorado. I'll just share, you know, that's a lot of small spaces with Different lighting technology. This facility is awesome. My main focus right now is mineral content in the media. I am so fascinated about the mineral balanced media and the correlation to the development of aroma.

1:58:48SpeakerI've seen that, for example, I've been doing organic cultivation for a very, very long time, but It's not enough. It's actually having mineral balanced media is just massive. But there have not been sufficiency targets for the kinds of minerals that drive the best product quality in this space. And that's really changing in these last couple of years. I'm sure you know Soil Doctor. Bryant is absolutely at the vanguard of the understanding about mineral sufficiency and cannabis agronomy and has built an incredible basis of insight that I would say at this point is about the most mature I've seen.

1:59:25SpeakerIn any case, working with different kinds of mineral sufficiency targets in organic substrates with different cultural practices, harvest timing, light spectra, irrigation frequency, all of these elements, I can produce what is the equivalent of like that Russian river Pinot Noir Which in its typicity is a strawberry profile, but in that Willamette Valley Pinot Noir is very much a, yeah, blackberry or cherry, also cherry and blackberry kind of both.

1:59:57SpeakerIt's just that I can achieve all of those voices in a controlled environment. But one other thing I just want to say about controlled environments, because we almost can't even talk about it without recognizing the research that came up from University of Colorado only a month ago that illustrates the Thank you so much for joining us.

2:00:35SpeakerProduction environment completely powered by renewables. And I'm hunting for resource use efficiency at the absolute peak of that arc. And I believe anybody who thinks that in 2050, we're going to have somehow this wonderful amount of ecological farms that are dealing with the collapse of all of the existing agricultural systems, which are absolutely moving towards a really terrifying trend, complete destabilization. I believe that plant factories with artificial lighting driven by renewables are a very significant part of the mosaic we need to move towards.

2:01:11SpeakerBut there's a little bit of like kind of knee jerk. Well, it's not working well now, but we're not at the apex of our evolution, just like this sensory conversation. But thankfully, we're moving in a way that's progressing there. But back to being true to time, what's exciting for me is that I think that just like the beer brewer can achieve so many results in a short period of time and therefore have This unbelievable perversity of aroma and flavor.

2:01:36SpeakerAnd I always look to the old wine drinkers that I know who consume alcohol and think, God, you're missing what's happened in beer with the novel voices of barrels and barrel aged ales coming back and all of the kind of hazies and these wild sort of diverse elements. Comparing it to a vintner, you know, who has a single result a year and in their entire career may produce like 20 or 30 results at best.

2:02:00SpeakerIt's like, I just think that we need to be having this conversation between those polls because I can produce so many results and then probably discover sooner than later what some of those variables, whether minerals in the media or other cultural practices, that can help to contribute to the overall base of knowledge as we're seeking to optimize ideal expressions of aromatherapeutic attributes and You know, that's obviously a vast pursuit.

2:02:28SpeakerIt will take tons and tons of us all talking and wrestling and arguing and having fun. Jeremy, we call that job security in the analytical space. But what you just mentioned in terms of the compounds and the minerality and the, you know, the I call them these sort of metabolic precursors. And so looking at the soil chemistry and the fertigation profiles for any crop is really fascinating because you can then apply metabolomics and looking at the genes that are being turned on and turned off in response to what is present or absent because they have different pathways to produce the same result if it's metabolically valuable.

2:03:14SpeakerAdam Wendel, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD,

2:03:30SpeakerThey have some function because they're expensive to produce. Some of them are byproducts from other cycles, metabolic cycles, or biosynthetic or biochemical cycles. Some of them seem to be an end result that is quote unquote intentional, like it's conserved for a reason. I would love to find out more about what compounds or what mineral profiles, what minerals are being used in what manner All right, so we're going to move on to the next slide.

2:04:04SpeakerSo we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide. So we're going to move on to the next slide.

2:04:26SpeakerAaron Weigel, Dean of the School of Business Administration, Dean of the School of Business Administration, Dean of the School of Business Administration, Dean of the School of Business Administration, Dean of the School of Business Administration,

2:04:44SpeakerIf not sort of governmentally regulated, but at least voluntarily regulated in the industry so that we can raise the bar. Let's raise the water level. Let's float all the boats. Let's give people access to data and reframe it in a way so that they understand it so they can make choices that are good for them because of that individual variability and response. So you know what, this is the profile.

2:05:14SpeakerThis is, we call this, I'm going to use the Blue Dream example again because I think it's a really good one. This is Blue Dream. It can be up to this level or down to this level of these compounds, but you will have a expected level of response, you personally, within that range. So you get to pick, I want a terpenylene dominant version of Blue Dream because I like the cannabinoid profile.

2:05:34SpeakerThe cannabinoid profiles are actually pretty stable. All of these people, interestingly enough, that I've found within a variety. The aromatic profile is going to be all over the place. If you grow it using the same inputs, if you grow it in the same way, in the same place, treating it the same, expose it to the same stressors or same deprivation of various nutrients or excess, you're going to have pretty good repeatability.

2:05:58SpeakerNot 100%, but pretty good repeatability. There's no reason that we as a group or as an industry Come together to try to voluntarily create this result or this database and this information for people. I think empowering consumers is something that I really believe in as I like people to be able to make their own choice. Nobody knows what's better for them than the individual themselves. As you said earlier, you pick the medication that you are attracted to or that you're drawn to because it makes you feel better.

2:06:31SpeakerLet's just be honest. That's why we do this stuff. And be it because of aroma or cannabinoid profile. And it's for me, it's always both. Like I would much rather consume something that is aromatically delicious, but maybe less potent in some ways than have the exact perfect balance of cannabinoids with no character. You know, it's just that's just not how it works for me. And I recognize that I think that there is something there.

2:06:59SpeakerI don't have it quantified. I have not seen the data that does quantify it, but there is definitely an interaction between those things. And Max, when you were saying earlier, like looking at the flower structure, I completely agree with Jeremy that I think that's an extremely large leap to make in terms of the pharmacokinetics based on flower structure. However, I also think that people looking at a really dense bud might expect Adam Wendel, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD,

2:07:51Speakerdifficult to do with hash unless you can tell you can actually tell that it's been it's been properly sifted and cleaned and it's you know it's a really good good mix and it presses well and you can you can you can enjoy it for me for me hash is far more far less visual and far more um you know on the intake like once i've once i've once i've vaporized it and inhaled it Then I have the experience of it.

2:08:12SpeakerWhereas flour, I mean, like we in the brewing industry, we say that the first sip is with your eyes, you know, so physical representation. And on a side note, hazy IPAs, man, there can be great flavor-wise. They can also be really muddy. But I spent, you know, 18 years of my life trying to figure out how to make hoppy beer clear. And then, you know, it's all flipped on its head and everybody wants everything hazy.

2:08:35SpeakerIt's the same thing with flour is that when you... Aaron Waite, Amy Van Dyke, Amy Van Dyke, Brandeis Pharmaceuticals, Brandeis Pharmaceuticals, Brandeis Pharmaceuticals, Brandeis Pharmaceuticals, Brandeis Pharmaceuticals, Brandeis Pharmaceuticals, Brandeis Pharmaceuticals,

2:09:03SpeakerI love that. I love that variability. Or the old Mexican brickweed from way back when. But I think it's worth considering those aspects of how we interact with what's in front of us. And it's not just aroma and smell, but it is also visual. And I think if you're talking about a holistic assessment of how people react to a crop, I think that's worth doing. Can I chime in just a little bit different perspective than a lot of people here.

2:09:38SpeakerWelcome, Debbie. Hey, good to see you guys. Whoop, whoop, whoop. Oh, man. So much I want to say about this, but I've learned a lot. Wow, that's trippy that the plants start taking on the characteristic of the plant next to them. It makes total sense. And that that goes all through like the human genome, the plant genome, the planet probably, you know, we're all like replicating to this kind of stable I'm a retailer.

2:10:09SpeakerI have, I've been street level retailing almost 25 years now. So I know the consumer. I mean, you started talking to this, the consumer about this stuff and their eyes are going to glaze over and it's kind of that rule of three. Is it the, is it I think we should also talk about capturing the micro language. What are those three categories that are small, medium, and large in the industry?

2:10:29SpeakerAre there three, right? I put extra large down there too, but I really think that most of my clients are thinking in threes.

2:10:50SpeakerIndica, Sativa Hybrid, Potent, Mild, Medium, Sleepy, Hyped Up, or somewhere in between. So I just want to put my two cents in. Yeah, what is that? What's the simplicity of the macro that the clients are looking for? And then when I think about the micro, I think it's super interesting because I think that's where the medicine is. And I think that's what we do with the micro.

2:11:19SpeakerWe're trying to cure some diseases, right? And we need to really get micro to figure out what's going to really get in there and bust that stuff apart. So I love that idea. And then this whole time I've been thinking about with all these Talking about all these stuff about beer, I think about the beer cooler at the store, which is always so cool. But there's really only a couple categories, right?

2:11:40SpeakerIs it dark beer? Is it IPA? Is it, you know, they've kind of categorized it. And then within there, there's a lot of genius in there, but the clients are still going for those. Take me to the category that I like that's simple for my brain as a consumer. So we are categorical thinkers, so we like to make it easy. I would love to, I would really love to answer Debbie on this because This is my bread and butter is educating dispensary staff to teach their consumers what's available to them by getting around things that are not real and true, such as indica or sativa.

2:12:18SpeakerAnd how do we do that? Because all of these domesticated hybrids are so vast that they're no longer an indica or a sativa. And when it comes to speciation, we're finding that, anyways, that can get too complex. I'm just going to share this with you. A lot of guys on here are familiar with Rob Clark's work. And I think it was brilliant when Rob Clark was compartmentalizing different cannabis types in acronyms.

2:12:50SpeakerAnd so he would say BLH for broadleaf hemp, which would be sativa species, subspecies, indica, variety, chinensis. Justin Delacruz, MD, It's a broadleaf hemp type. And within the broad to narrow leaf spectrum, you have a broad to narrow leaf spectrum within marijuana types and within hemp types. And what we cannot do for the sake of Jeremy and reality is you can't distinguish a type based on what it looks like, which we do not do.

2:13:24SpeakerWe don't say, Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to start off with a little bit of an introduction. So we're going to start off with a little bit of an introduction. We're going to start off with a little bit of an introduction.

2:13:55SpeakerBecause he was separating a drug type from hemp types. But his work came out the year before hemp had federal legislation that opened up hemp farming for farming it for drug types. And so out here in Colorado, people farm hemp specifically for CBD, or they farm hemp specifically for CBG. And those are drugs. Drugs are medicines. Jason Schifferman, MD, M.D. : medicines and drugs are interchangeable that's why you get medicines and drugs and so you can't call the one that gets you high.

2:14:33SpeakerJason Schifferman, MD, M.D. : A drug compared to hemp that you're farming for drug purposes for a variety of different reasons, and after we learned the 500 year old etymology of the word marijuana. And how and why it is a cool, beautiful, and righteous word, not what we thought it was and where it just comes from from the 1930s perspective. That we really just compartmentalize that there's a difference between hemp types and hemp varieties and marijuana types.

2:15:05SpeakerAnd in the world of marijuana cannabis, we have broadleaf types. So we have broadleaf marijuana that we call BLM. And Because it's not just sedative, there's sedative, but there's also types that are a little bit less sedative. We just call it BLMD, broadleaf marijuana dominant. Medium leaf marijuana is the type that's in between. NLMD is narrow leaf marijuana dominant. And then NLM is narrow leaf marijuana. And what we have found is in general, if you have marijuana types that have very narrow leaves, That generally has a plant shape.

2:15:49SpeakerAnd that plant shape has longer spaces in between the nodes. And that longer nodal structure allows the colas to grow out a little bit longer and become a little bit more fluffy and less dense. And that plants that look like that, then also, depending on the aroma perspective and its chemotype, you can start to compartmentalize that in general NLMs, narrow leaf marijuana types, for the most part are generally stimulating types of cannabis.

2:16:21SpeakerAnd so you're not calling it a sativa because there's like, you can't really say, well, there's a hardcore sativa and a little bit less of a sativa. So we just respect the fact that cannabis is on a spectrum of effect type. And we just use acronyms to compartmentalize them. And we use acronyms to separate marijuana types from hemp types as both of those cannabis types have broad to narrow leaf spectrums.

2:16:48SpeakerMax, are you familiar with the work by Carl Hillig?

2:16:53SpeakerYes, I mean, I know quite a bit. I've read his papers before. Okay, because that's where Rob got the narrow leaf and broad leaf was from Carl. Interesting. I did not know that. Yeah, absolutely true. Carl and Rob are very close friends of mine. So for the consumer, we can just even drill down further that they're probably only going to want to know six things, six factors.

2:17:21SpeakerIs it lightly potent, mildly potent, super potent? Does it make me sleepy in between? Or like, is it like coffee? And I think those are the consumer categories. I don't know what else they, I mean, other than that, they want to drill into those particular categories once they find their All right, so Debbie, spin the wheel. Which way do you want it to turn? Left, right, and how many turns do you want?

2:17:45SpeakerNo, I get it. I'm just saying it still is a little bit confusing, but just kind of putting a big topic on a big picture topic, not of broad interest, but the consumer, I think, is going to want something more simplified. They already use something more simplified.

2:18:01BubblemanYou make a super good point, Debbie, actually. And this is, you know, this is something we're not thinking about because we go deep down the rabbit hole. But if you ever stood behind a dispensary and just made sales all day, and if you did it for 25 years the way Debbie did it, you would have like a very unique perspective based on the reality of The customer, the end user, nothing else.

2:18:26BubblemanAnd I'm with you, Max. I'm all about like, no, but let's like, because I geek out on this stuff. I want everyone to learn this stuff. But when I also go do my PK sessions at Canadian dispensaries for my own company's products, you know, the people who are working there, they're like, oh, yeah, I want all this stuff. I want to learn all this stuff. But in reality, when I talk to them, they're like, Dude, I have like 48 seconds with each customer, sometimes two and a half minutes.

2:18:52BubblemanThey don't want to hear as much of what I've been saying as I, as I thought they might. And that's just a unique, go ahead.

2:19:00SpeakerSo Marcus and Debbie, you're, you're both a hundred percent correct in this. And that's, that's something that, that what we're going down the rabbit hole. I think that Debbie's, you know, let's make it simple. Like this is generally stimulating or generally sedating. This is sort of middle of the range, you know, based on the cannabinoid profile. I think that it also, the other thing the consumers do is like, oh, I want a Deasley smelling one.

2:19:22SpeakerAll right. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in about a minute or so. So we're going to get started in about a minute or so. So we're going to get started in about a minute or so.

2:19:52SpeakerAnd it works for people. And like you said, like, you know, the classifications. You've seen the Fido facts. Yes. Yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah. And so I think I think we're heading towards these directions as an industry. All right, so we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

2:20:13SpeakerWe're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today.

2:20:35SpeakerBut those are really useful tools for me personally. I'm like, oh, I love this smell, but this one doesn't actually make me feel that good. And to try to understand and sort of arm the consumer with, you know, give the retailers and the novice consumer access to simple categories to discuss these things and sort of frame the conversation. But then as they get more interested or they notice specific effects, they might at least have access to information that allows them to drill a little bit deeper.

2:21:03SpeakerAnd this, like when you talk about in terms of flour, you know, all the flour characteristics, I think that's fantastic. But, you know, this is a hash church discussion, right? I mean, how does that apply to hash and extracts? And that's, those are increasingly popular methods of consumption. It's actually a sin to smoke marijuana in this church. You can only smoke hash each.

2:21:29BubblemanActually, actually, in fact, in fact, No matter what you smoke, you're smoking hashish. When you smoke flour, you're just smoking hashish diluted on flour.

2:21:42SpeakerIt's been diluted by the plant.

2:21:44BubblemanIt's all hashish. We don't discriminate here.

2:21:46SpeakerThat's what the volcano does. Sam? Sam? It strips it right off the volcano, for example. You put a bud in there, and it liberates the resin heads, the trichomes. Everything else is left alone, really.

2:22:06BubblemanThat's true. What a great conversation. I'm glad. I was loving how deep we were getting into it. And I just also loved Debbie just coming in and being like, oh, hey, just, you know, over here in reality, just had a couple of prospects. It was good, Debbie. Really, it was.

2:22:24SpeakerThank you. I like the idea of really doing the science. It's incredible all the work we can do. It's offensive when we think about prohibition. And I mean, we maybe could have cured cancer, all these different things that could have happened with cannabis had we been able to do the research. So thank goodness you guys are doing that. And let's keep drilling down and figuring out what these specific molecular makeups can do to help humans.

2:22:45SpeakerYou know, so. Well, Jeremy. You can lead a customer to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

2:22:58SpeakerI like that. A lot of people are coming into the dispensaries so they don't have to, right? They're trying to let go of all the complication in life. So even when I go in a dispensary, I got two questions. What's the most potent and what's going to make me feel like I'm going downhill on the roller coaster? Like, ah, you know, just guide me right to it.

2:23:13SpeakerI don't want anything else. You know, I'm connoisseur level. So I like the fact I can just be like, Zam, take me right there. So, so Debbie, I, I, oh, if I may, uh, there was a wonderful series of experiences when, uh, we still have medical in Oregon where there was very low throughput in the retail experience. And that was a really special time because every individual that came through the door, there would be like an hour minimum conversation engagement, because very often people would present exactly the kind of narrative you said.

2:23:44SpeakerIt's like, which one makes me feel like I'm going down the roller coaster, et cetera. And really, inevitably, it was like, well, let's talk about the effect matrix. Let's talk about phytochemistry and dosage and titration, these different delivery systems. And then look at all of these novel, exciting products. Now to like induct the individual into the adventure of exploring the nuanced altered states of consciousness and the therapeutic effects that can arise and to really empower them, I think also requires this other set of knowledge we're not talking about, which is psychopharmacology.

2:24:19SpeakerThere really is this amazing set of data that illustrates, say you prescribe somebody SSRIs for their anti-depression effects. If you simply give them the drugs, the drugs actually over time for most people are not going to do much for them. It's actually going to generally work to be that you'll see a decreased quality of life over time. However, if you combine those drugs for a brief period of time with counseling and have a little bit of human interaction, then all of a sudden you're engaging in this incredible sort of effect boosting, potentiating result that we see strong evidence to support in the psychopharmacology world.

2:24:59SpeakerSo there's this fascinating sense that I think one of the things that we're missing is we have You know, this perspective of give me the thing that does this, and now we actually need the Well, it's not, it doesn't work like that, but here's this range of things and dose is going to matter tremendously. So we want you to start with this tiny increment so you can get to know what that is at different times in the day, at different levels of stress that you're experiencing, et cetera, come to know this one element and then gradually build that until you hit undesirable side effects.

2:25:31SpeakerAnd then, you know, the threshold, at least for now, based on your current tolerance, and then you back off a bit. But that sense of like a mature titration process and the sense of adventure is really, I think, a giant contribution. But then it's this other human element that I don't think it's rocket science. I think it's a bit of empathetic attuning and it's actually just the sense of being heard as a consumer and then also being supported.

2:25:57SpeakerThat there's something about that interaction that's such a wonderful opportunity which largely as we went from medical to adult use went away because of massive you know volume of transactions and this kind of high throughput model and then a lot of savvy marketing campaigns saying this product does this this one does that and then really this kind of giant cloud of confusion over what has been a movement for decades you know from the bay on To really help people to actually improve their quality of life, to have a lifelong sustainable relationship with these products, whether it is hash or hash and flower form, which actually was my favorite comment of the whole show today, except anyways, I just think that we have so far to go.

2:26:41SpeakerAnd unfortunately, if we go too soon to the overarching categories, we lose a lot. On the other hand, if we spend too long spinning in infinite diversity, we also lose a lot of engagement. And so it's, of course, both are so important. And I just really love the pragmatism of your comment and Also have wrestled that a lot. I think almost I'm the worst person to answer what those absolutely essential archetypal categories are going to be or what they look like.

2:27:10SpeakerBecause everything I'm doing in my inquiry just illustrates greater range in diversity than I could have imagined possible. And then you bring Nick into the conversation and we're looking at a level of phytochemical inventory that so far surpasses what we've conventionally been talking about. And, you know, including aldehydes, esters, David Meyers, M.D. : All of these other compounds that are clearly contributing. And, you know, they connect with Dr. David Murray's work that illustrated that in fact cannabinoids were not the key variable and why the autistic kids started having incredibly heightened aggression and, you know, a child throwing his Matt Roberts, Mother through a plate glass window when dose A, which was a one-to-one ratio, then gets replaced with dose B, also a one-to-one ratio and radically different effects.

2:27:57SpeakerAnd there's just so much mystery about the effect itself. But I think there are ways to study that. And I don't think that's neatly connecting the dots with phytochemistry at this point. We're immature there clinically. We just simply don't have that maturity. I see the camps that are doing it. And David is certainly out in front or Didi. But I think there's another approach which Dr. Aidy Ray, I wish she was on this call because the reality is she has a really wonderful summation of how to approach that human connection to effect and experience based on a really rigorous scientific approach.

2:28:34SpeakerAnd I just think that voice isn't at the table. That would be a really fun additional tense and fantastic dynamic to bring forward.

2:28:43BubblemanYeah, I'm loving the conversation. Go ahead, Debbie.

2:28:46SpeakerAll right. I was just sitting here thinking, OK, people come into the shop and this is what they want to do. They've got a health condition. They want to transform. They feel one way. They want to ingest cannabis and then they want to feel a different way. Right. Better. Or they're coming into the shop because they're like, I'm going to do something. I want to go hiking.

2:29:05SpeakerWhat's going to be the best? I'm going to study. What's going to be the best? I want to sleep. What's going to be the best? It's an actual experiential thing that they're asking us about. They're not asking us about the chemicals. They're like, what's best for swimming? What's going to be best for watching a movie? I want to connect with my partner. What's best for swimming? I don't know.

2:29:23SpeakerWhere did that even come from? I don't know. For real, they're literally asking what's best for swimming. I've had those same comments. But how do we classify for the consumer? Like this is the one for swim. I don't know. I'm just saying it's interesting. There's a molecular conversation. And the fact is the consumer is looking for a sensory experience that's transformational. I feel like this and I want to do this.

2:29:47SpeakerAnd where do the two connect? And we could talk for hours, of course, and figure out all these different classification systems. But I think we agree, there's not one yet, either on the macro or the micro. And it is a mature market already. I mean, we've been retailing legally, me and ATN, since the 90s. And it is a mature market.

2:30:09SpeakerRight now, cannabis, sativa, indica, and hybrid are used by our buyers and our staff as a classification for experience. It's not so much what the real plant is. If we call it indica, because we think that's going to be more of a couchy type of cannabis. If we call it sativa, we think it's going to be more uplifting. Anyway, I'm just saying. I totally understand that, Debbie, people do that.

2:30:32SpeakerThe problem is it just doesn't work. And I really mean that, you know, I get that we've all defaulted to a kind of jargon that is comforting, but the problem is it doesn't work. So I think there is a ways to go. Every time I have the chance just to make it really, really simple, I simply start with You know, it just doesn't work like that. There's like over a thousand bioactive compounds and unique constellations in each one of these lots.

2:30:56SpeakerAnd even if you get the same product from the same producer, you're probably not going to see bedrican-like trait stability in the kem of our expression. You're actually going to experience a range of things. So embrace the adventure. Here's some tools for the ride. You need to understand titration with all of this. Explore. And the great news is unless a bale of it falls on your head, it's probably not going to do harm.

2:31:16SpeakerAlthough now we actually have to deal with cannabinoid hypermemsis syndrome, which I've just had. My second experience with in the last month, and it is absolutely horrifying to see what people go through. It is actually a psychosis that preempts that is before the cyclical vomiting, which is, it's a really wild experience that is actually legitimately happening to a now significant population of people consuming. Outside of that, the bale of it needs to fucking fall on your head.

2:31:44SpeakerSo it's safe and therefore enjoy the adventure. Like let's not actually Brandon Krenzler, Brandon Krenzler, Brandon Krenzler, Brandon Krenzler, Brandon Krenzler,

2:32:13SpeakerAnd someone would come in asking for an Indica or Sativa or what would help them swim. I would do exactly what Jeremy's doing. I would say, but it doesn't work like that. And I would try to explain to them the complexity of the effect matrix and all these things. And then I'd get yelled at by my boss because he's like, dude, I love the fact that you just want to educate each and every individual customer that comes in each time.

2:32:41SpeakerBut you are slowing down my entire operation. I have a line out the door. These people are, you can't even understand half the shit you're saying. Their eyes are rolling in the back of their head. There's got to be a meeting in the middle point where All of the stuff that Jeremy's saying, which is 100% real and true, that the consumer doesn't know what they don't know.

2:33:06SpeakerThey don't know what to ask. And sometimes they don't have the time of day to get the type of education that we're so passionate about and want to offer to them.

2:33:18SpeakerThat's the reason why I'm trying to develop this app with this aroma science company that does cannabis aroma the way that I think Nick is doing hop aroma in probably very similar ways. And wrapping that in with just a little bit of interpreting methodology, but also for the first time grading cannabis. How good is this weed? Am I buying good weed or bad weed? What is good weed?

2:33:43SpeakerWho sets the line for what good is and how do you measure that? So at the end of the day, Hopefully what we'll be able to do is if you either are searching for something particular or you can go into a dispensary that doesn't offer deli style anymore, which is horrible, prepackaged cannabis, you're not allowed to see if your body is attracted to this plant or not.

2:34:03SpeakerHopefully you'll be able to scan it with your cell phone and it's just going to have one page of information that will tell you on a scale of good to bad, this is how good this product has been graded. And on a scale from stimulating to sedative, this is where a computer based off of aroma profiles have found it to be, which has been collaborated with interpreters, people who are really passionate about the flavor, the aroma, the effect type of cannabis, all together so that at the end of the day, a consumer doesn't have to know and understand the details of this complexity.

2:34:38SpeakerThey just have to scan a jar of flour and see, okay, these really smart guys who are super passionate, cracked the code of what this varietal is. And they just programd it in a quick information space for me to say, oh, this is a 91.26%. So this is an A minus grade cannabis that has a really gassy and fruity tones, which generally is gonna equate to this type of an effect for nine out of 10 people.

2:35:08SpeakerAnd also, if you want to go even crazier, you can slide over and be like, where's its appellation? What's its terroir? What's the grower story? What's the history? And try to, you know, offer cannabis in that way. But before I have to jet and get out of here, Jeremy, I think, did a good job of celebrating Nick and all of the work that Nick is doing. And after... Slightly embarrassingly, but very much thanks.

2:35:33SpeakerAnd I'm actually humbled to be invited to speak with all of you. This has been fantastic. Well, I just wanted to celebrate what Jeremy's doing because I think when you described the way that you're going about your version of growing cannabis in a controlled environment with different environments indoors that's replicatable, I believe what you're talking about can and would have a TED Walk. And so I'm going to make that leap from you can't have indoor terroir to if you're doing it the way Jeremy is, well, then, yes, you could definitely apply the ideology of terroir in that way.

2:36:17SpeakerAnd you're also pushing a boundary to every French person is just I'm yelling at the computer right now. No, you can't do this. Like what? Like this is it's to the earth and oh my God. And like, like Frenchie Cannoli is like screaming in the background. No, you can't do it indoors. But I think, I think, I think because you're, you're, you're going about it in such a Passionately intelligent way.

2:36:47SpeakerAnd the term that you keep referring back to maturity. I think you're bringing a maturity to the idea of how growing indoor and consistent cannabis could and should be done. And in my geography and where I come from, those guys just aren't there yet, man. They're just trying to pump money. Right. They're just shooting pounds. How many what kind of light lumens can I get for how many pounds?

2:37:13SpeakerBecause at the end of the day, my goal is to make millions of dollars and retire on this weed thing that I've been that I love since high school. That's it. It's not the same amount of care. It's not the same amount of passion and it's not the same amount of maturity. So I just wanted to share with you that I'm proud of the work that you're doing and I'm very appreciative of it and that I would like to learn a lot more about it.

2:37:37SpeakerIf, yeah, I can, I can, I can speak to that as well. Um, I, I was super impressed by Jeremy with the first time I met him and that has only grown, uh, and actually getting to see the facility and sample some of the product that you have, you've created was just a pleasure. And, uh, I got to come back next month in Portland, dude. That was a, that was fantastic.

2:37:58SpeakerWell, I'm honored and sincerely a lot of my passion has been informed by other people present on the church right now and I just I again want to thank Marcus for facilitating a conversation that includes as many diverse perspectives and calling to constantly big up and support that process and Sam to inspire all of us to be at the foundation, Debbie to keep it real, Etienne to lay down the foundation for the Bay Area activism.

2:38:25SpeakerAnyways, all of these great humans, but the reality is I just am also grateful to you, Max, for all of that feedback and for the bold efforts that you've made to essentially really, really take a point position and leading sensory forward in our space, knowing how absolutely vital this is to the, especially the producers I care about the most who Often the people who can show you their soil and how much love and concern that they've put into that, it's like they're not able to get any kind of value at wholesale level at most of the high throughput retail locations right now.

2:38:59SpeakerAnd until sensory comes in and validates that, until a critical momentum is achieved where we can actually recognize that all cannabis is not being produced on an equal level, there's tremendous variance in quality. Quality is yet to be identified in a mature way. This is grinding up people who have been multigenerational farmers who are the very best at this craft. And I'm just so excited to see that reality start to turn.

2:39:24SpeakerAnd I think everybody's contributing to that in this discourse. But anyways, just such an awesome honor to be in Hash Church again and here with family working on challenging issues that will probably outlive us and that I hope we all get to somehow support and breathe more life into because, gosh, we have a long ways to go.

2:39:45BubblemanWell, I have no doubt these conversations are incredibly important. And I didn't really know it when I first started Hash Church and even after a couple of years. And then I looked back four or five years later and I had taken some big breaks and I was like, oh, wow, that was really important conversation. And it's how I feel now, again, that these conversations are incredibly important.

2:40:04BubblemanIt's great that we're having them. And I thank all of you for showing up and, yeah, engaging in these dialogues. It's awesome.

2:40:13SpeakerWord. Thanks so much, everybody.

2:40:17SpeakerGreat conversation. Thank you, Marcus.

2:40:21Johnny BGreat meeting you, Max. I love to connect with you. Talk more. Definitely. Like to talk. Yeah.

2:40:28SpeakerAnd Nick, man, I want to go to Nick's school.

2:40:33SpeakerIt's a scary place, dude. It's a scary place. Oh, man. And I can't wait to tell you guys about the cannabis and hops new species that's been hybridized together at an F7 that I'm writing about in the new interpreting book that's coming out this year. And who did that?

2:40:53Johnny BWait a minute.

2:40:54SpeakerHe's like, how can you start something like that and then bail? Hey, Marcus. How about next hash church? We're going to get into all the funky types of cannabis. You know that Duck's Foot was first scientifically described in the 1920s. I've got white papers on Duck's Foot. Oh no, I've got them from the 1800s. Yeah, exactly. Like this is like, I think we, you know what, Marcus, next Hash Church will be the most unique and bizarre cannabis varietals and even types that are pushing the boundary of We are now being cannabis and are now moving into humulus, cannabis humulus.

2:41:39SpeakerI'm definitely feeling a continuation. Rob and I tried to hybridize hops with cannabis. We tried every hop species we could find and we crossed it with cannabis and we did the vice versa. We never got any cross-pollination fertilization whatsoever. And I think I know why. Because there's a trick up someone's sleeve. The guy who did it and who figured it out, there's a trick to it. And you've confirmed that it contains both genomes?

2:42:17SpeakerYeah. There's a bit of a problem with that because the genome is already contained within the cannabis plant. Right. So anyway, till next task church. This would be this would be a whole nother three hour haul. I'm going to I'm going to go take care. We can go, bro.

2:42:33BubblemanWhat are you talking about? We do five hours all the time. I'm just joking. We'll do it next Sunday.

2:42:39SpeakerI'm telling you, Max. We tried so hard to do that. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've never, never seen it. I've heard at least 100 different people say they could do it. So I'm very, very curious. The trick is to use a species of hops that nobody uses to produce beer with. Yeah, but we use a species of hops. A species of hops. Hops is polytypic the way cannabis is not.

2:43:10SpeakerYeah, okay. Well, I definitely need to connect with you on this because this would be really interesting for me for a variety of reasons. Yeah, and I mean, you know, we also discovered glandular trichomes that have never been scientifically looked at before. So I've got a contract with two different universities who have confirmed both in South Korea and Colorado that cannabis glandular trichomes that we have found that look unlike any other trichome type are definitely novel.

2:43:41SpeakerAnd what they'll this year when I flower these plants out, they're actually going to dissect the anatomy of the glandular trichomes as they're alive in their living state, which is why they have to do this. That's been done many times, Max, with lasers. That's already been done.

2:44:02BubblemanIf it's not done to novel trichomes he's talking about. There you go.

2:44:08SpeakerBrand new trichome types. Hey Marcus. Yeah. Just a quick question for you here. I'd love to, I sent an email to what I thought was everybody on here, but I think we've got some new late joins that weren't in the original email thread. Is the chat, does that get published as well or is that, is that private?

2:44:26BubblemanThe chat here does not get published, the Zoom chat, but the one on YouTube does.

2:44:34SpeakerOkay, so the Zoom chat's private then, right? Yep. I just shot you my email in the Zoom chat. Oh, no, I just shot that to Debbie. Let me shoot it to everybody. I just hit mine, so hit us up, please. Yeah. If you want to connect some more, that'd be great. Oh, for sure. Oh, and when you ask for volunteers to help create a standard for, it sounds like we're trying to create something like IBUs in beer, but for cannabis in a variety of different ways.

2:45:04SpeakerAnyways, I would love to be on that team and that project and explore those ideas. Sounds great.

2:45:10Collin PalmerYeah, Nick, that sounds like a great direction to take everything.

2:45:16SpeakerI actually have a ton of photographs of the cannabis and hops crosses and a variety of different ones too. There's a handful of them. And you'll see these plants will be like, oh my gosh, that is a hop plant growing THC and CBD rich cones and vice versa. Really interesting. Have you tested the hops with analysis to see what the cannabinoid content was? Yes, we have done cannabinoid analysis.

2:45:46SpeakerThe thing that we haven't done yet is genealogy. So genome testing is coming next.

2:45:56Collin PalmerVery cool, Max.

2:45:57SpeakerYeah. Hey, you guys rock. Marcus, thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this hash church. This was a good one. And I'm just so thankful to be with all these really incredible cannabis leaders. Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman,

2:46:29BubblemanIt's always a pleasure to have everyone on the panel and to join. Today was a good one. Like today was a good one. It's going to this one's going to be popular in the podcast form, I suspect. So for those that don't feel like watching YouTube, this shows up on like Android and Google and Apple and Spotify and Pandora and all those sorts of things just under Hash Church 3.0.

2:46:51BubblemanAnd I'll be uploading it today at the end of this episode, which I suspect I'll let it go for another 12 minutes. We can keep chatting a little bit.

2:47:00SpeakerNick, hops are heterozygotes, correct? Diuretious heterozygous, yeah, I think so. Sorry, I think so. I haven't eaten breakfast yet. My brain's a little bit slow. All cannabis is heterozygote. Yep.

2:47:25SpeakerI'm just trying to understand how hops can cross with cannabis. I mean, I did the same thing. Rob and I spent several years trying to do it. We got every species of hops there was in the entire world. The rarest ones were from China, but we could never get them to hybridize. The Uninensis has actually been disproven as a species. We're pretty sure that that's... But we got it anyway.

2:47:53SpeakerYeah, you probably got the Tsingtao flower. Yeah, so yeah, hops are... They've got a high level of heterozygocicity. Yeah, a lot of repeats as well. But it's interesting. People have tried, people have had limited success, and they've been able to cross them And then they tend to die before like the fourth internode starts to grow. I've seen people graft them. I grafted them. No, no, no. I mean, the grafting works, but then actually even hybridizing them, they have been able to get on the stick and then it dies quickly.

2:48:30SpeakerYeah. We could not get any set seed either on the hops or on the cannabis, vice versa, because we did it both ways.

2:48:43SpeakerOne totally different idea here that's parallel. I'm sure you're aware of a type five cannabis variety. So now we have a knockout that's in the synthesis resulting in cannabinoid null profile. These aroma rich cannabis products being used for dry hop addition or dry hemp addition It strikes me as offering a whole novel array of aroma contributions on the ale side. On the cannabis side, a little bit, yeah, different, but interesting.

2:49:10SpeakerI have yet to see type five plants actually being used in that way, but it sure seems like a novel and fun application. Those were described by Dr. DeMeyer. That was our work.

2:49:30SpeakerI recall, thank you for reminding me some of those amazing work. And ultimately, I can't wait till I get to play with some of those type five plants. I've never, ever found one in any of the sessions I've hunted and always hoped that somewhere in a type three population, I'd run into that. But we have lots of type fours now. Oops, sorry, what was that? It's a mutation.

2:49:53SpeakerYes.

2:49:57SpeakerA natural mutation.

2:50:02SpeakerHey, everyone. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. And Jeremy, always a pleasure. And Marcus, thank you so much for setting this up. This is just a fantastic privilege. So I hope we can do it again. And I'd love to connect. You guys put my email in the chat. And I sent an email to those who were on the original chain. But please reach out if you'd like to discuss anything further.

2:50:23SpeakerAnd I will definitely be reaching out to some of you guys. So thank you all so much.

2:50:28BubblemanI have a strong feeling you're going to get about a dozen emails.

2:50:31SpeakerAwesome. Great. New people talking about fun things that I care about. This is fantastic. I mean, what's not to like? So.

2:50:37BubblemanYeah. Thanks for showing up, Nick. It was indeed a pleasure. Thanks, Jeremy, for linking me up to Nick. Thanks, Rob.

2:50:45SpeakerYou know, anyone that ever wants to... Sorry.

2:50:48BubblemanWell, anytime anyone wants to link me up with great people, I immediately share those great people with the world. So I do appreciate it. And yeah, thank you both, Max and Nick and everyone else for showing up today. It was... It was fun. I suspect we'll be thinking for the next seven days solid before next Sunday. Everyone's going to have a presentation available like Nick did.

2:51:09SpeakerOh, that wasn't a presentation. I'm trying to avoid the murder by PowerPoint or death by PowerPoint problem.

2:51:15BubblemanDude, I was liking it. I just loved the whole day today. Everything from Max starting, from you, Debbie coming in. It was all just really quite enjoyable. All sorts of beautiful words said by Jeremy and Wade chimed in very early, which is always just like... A pleasure and a privilege to hear his voice on a Sunday morning in my ears. I always, you know, there is a vibration from Wade's voice that is, that I can say does create a calming effect.

2:51:49BubblemanI can say that with 100% truth. So thanks, Wade. Thanks, everybody.

2:51:54SpeakerHe has a voice made for radio. I have a face made for radio. So all right, y'all. Thank you so much. I hope to chat again soon. Bye, guys. Bye. Hi, everybody. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Marcus. Really good session.

2:52:10BubblemanYeah, we're going to do it again next week for sure. So let's all come back next week and I'll see you then. Peace, y'all. Peace out.