Exploring Type Two Cannabis and Industry Insights

0:01BubblemanMeeting is now streaming live on YouTube. All right. I just have to share the link. Hey, welcome everybody to Hash Church 3.0 episode 18. Almost an impromptu episode. It came together pretty quickly. I just need to share the new YouTube chat with the old one because for whatever reason, the way Zoom is working these days, that's the way they make us do it. So there we are.

0:28BubblemanWe're good. We're live. We've got a crew of people. I want to welcome everyone today. I'm very excited about today's episode. Very much so inspired by SEGRA International's panel of wonderful, wonderful cannabis aficionados and cannabis warriors, if you will. Dr. Mark Lewis, who's in the room right now from Napro. You know, I'm going to let him do his introduction because I could spend the next hour introducing him.

0:57BubblemanFirst met in Leiden in Holland at the International Cannabinoid Research Society. And I think it was Ryan Lee, my good friend, Chimera Genetics, who linked us up. And that was great. Ryan Lee is hopefully going to be popping in as well today. Alec from SC Labs is going to be here. I also invited Ian Davidson from SEGRA. Hopefully he's going to be able to make it. He's very busy on Sundays, so it's not always possible for him.

1:21BubblemanWe've got Wade in the room. We've got Skunk Man Sam. We've got Peter coming in from Soil Balance. We've got Collin Palmer coming in from Vessel Life. And I'm probably forgetting a few people. Oh, Mojave Richmond is also coming in. I did also invite Rob Clark. I'm not sure if he's going to be able to make it or not. But wow, what an incredible group of people.

1:43BubblemanAnd then Joe Sullivan as well, which will get you to introduce yourself as well. A good friend of Alec from SC Labs. When I told him about the show we were having, he said, He said, Hey, we got to get, we got to get my buddy in there as well. So welcome all of you guys. I hope you're having a great day. I see Dr. Mark Sheldon is also in the room.

2:01BubblemanHow could I forget? And Etienne Fontaine is in the room. These are our, our regular panelists that are going to be joining us as well today. So some, some regulars and a bunch of new people. So, well, I think we would love to start maybe with you, Dr. Mark Lewis, if you want to give a little introduction to yourself, to the Hash Church community, that would be, uh, That would be amazing.

2:23SpeakerSure. Thanks, Marcus. Long time listener, first time caller. I'd like to give a shout out to David and Etienne. I haven't seen you in a while. I think I met Etienne the same time I met you, Marcus. Yeah, I grew up in Indiana. Went to IU Bloomington and discovered Kind Bud. Started growing when I got Dr. Dre's Chronic album. Been playing with cannabis and getting technical science degrees to support that effort ever since.

2:57SpeakerStarted in APRO research about five years after being in California and started developing methods to elucidate the chemical constituents that are in the plant and use those methods to create a marker assisted breeding program that That we're really proud of. Multiple clients use our technologies. We service clients. We don't actually cultivate cannabis. So if you know any growers who are struggling and they want some help, that's kind of what we do.

3:34SpeakerWe also recently licensed our proprietary Phytofax to SC Laboratories. Since we've been terpene focused for about a decade, that technology has really Helping the cultivation community with quality control standards, learning how to fill holes in menus, and really helping consumers make purchase decisions.

4:03BubblemanAwesome. Thanks, dude. That's awesome. Amazing. I'm really looking forward to the conversation we're going to get into here today. For those of you that didn't see the SEGRA panel that had Dr. Mark Lewis on it, It had Mojave Richmond and Rob Clark from BioAgronomics. It had Ryan Lee from Chimera Genetics. And it was just on SEGRA's website today on their YouTube and I couldn't find it. But I will find the link and I will put it into here because I think it's a really good sort of prequel to the conversation that will potentially happen today here on Hash Church.

4:37BubblemanI want to welcome Ryan Lee, aka Chimera Genetics, to the room. How are you doing, brother?

4:43Ryan Dank AfNot bad. Yeah, that link is not public on YouTube yet. They're still doing it as like a registration through the Sager website. So I'll just send you the link. But if you want to watch it in the next week, you have to fill out your info or some fake info so that people can get out and watch it. But it'll be up on YouTube in a week, I'm told.

5:06BubblemanOkay, cool. Yeah, I'll see if I can get possible permission to post it on my channel as well. Once they've gotten past trying to whatever they're doing with acquiring, you know, contacts and whatnot with it. But yeah, it was a great.

5:23Ryan Dank AfYeah, it was interesting. It's funny as a group of people that kind of freaked out about taking something. It's just hard to be surprised in the cannabis industry. But yeah, I mean, it's just talking about basic breeding. It's nothing too in-depth or, I don't know, conspiratorial-minded. It's funny when you start talking about cannabis breeding in the post-philos world, everybody thinks that it's all about big companies coming in to steal your shit.

5:53Ryan Dank AfAnd I don't think they realize that, you know, I mean, there's 500 licensed companies in Canada that are operating. So there's like, yeah, there are some big growers But in case anybody hasn't been paying attention, they're failing big time in the marketplace. And a lot of the smaller cultivators that, you know, have a smaller footprint and put a lot more care into their flowers are starting to do sales and do a decent amount of sales.

6:17Ryan Dank AfAnd, you know, maybe they're not multi-billion dollar businesses, but they're successful cultivators providing flowers to the market. And a lot of these people are transitions from the legacy marketplace. So I don't know. I just... The whole conspiracy thing is kind of funny.

6:37BubblemanI was a bit disappointed by it. I will be honest. When you said that Sam had posted on ICMAG, I was like, oh, I want to go check it out and see what people are saying. I was kind of disappointed to see the sort of low brow level of, I was just like, oh man, this must be why I don't really post on the boards anymore. Like, which is hard for me to say because those boards, and I don't turn my back on those boards easily.

7:01BubblemanThey were everything to us. You know, like when the Cannabis Cup only existed in Amsterdam and the only boards were Overgrow and Cannabis World and, you know, Cannabis, like these boards were everything to us. They were the community. We didn't have all the social media. We were segregated onto these small little platforms and they really were everything. And when I look back at it now, I mean, I went into the ICMAG chat yesterday just to kind of try and like even See what everyone was up to in there.

7:31BubblemanAnd it just seems like it's really stagnant. It's like, I guess we left those boards and we started sharing this information everywhere else. Almost but those boards, thank God for you, Sam, because you're still on there sharing valid information. Do you find that there's still decent dialogue to be found on the board, Sam?

7:53BubblemanSam, paging skunk man, Sam. He's like out of the room, maybe. Well, we'll welcome Jeremy Plum to the room. Good to see you in person. Oh, you're there, Sam?

8:05Jeremy PlumYes, it was my mute. I was muted. I self-muted myself.

8:10BubblemanHow many bong rips into the day are you right now, just out of curiosity?

8:15Jeremy PlumWhat is that now?

8:16BubblemanI said, how many bong rips into your day are you currently?

8:19Jeremy PlumOh, I know exactly. I counted on my iPhone. It's 792. That's impressive.

8:29BubblemanSo yeah, about the boards though, do you find that there's quality conversation and dialogue happening on these boards?

8:34Jeremy PlumWell, let's say that there's a handful or two handfuls of individuals who are capable of discussing it without sinking down to aluminum hats.

8:50SpeakerAnd they're not all on this podcast right now?

8:55Jeremy PlumNo, because there's a few I know who are quite nice people and privately message me saying they appreciate what I'm doing, but whatever. I mean, if you're really interested, check out the bibliography that I have posted. That's maybe the most interesting thing.

9:23Jeremy PlumThat's all.

9:29Etienne FontanYou're muted, Marcus. We can't hear you, sir.

9:33BubblemanSorry guys, I'm just talking to myself. I wanted to welcome Jeremy Plum to the room. This is a gentleman that for some reason I just did not know in the industry. Like our paths have not crossed in the last few days since the SEGRA panel. Catching him on Clubhouse and listening to him speak so absolutely passionately and eloquently. I think I'm not the only one that shares that sort of perspective.

9:57BubblemanIt's absolutely a joy and a pleasure to have you here on Hash Church, Jeremy. Thank you for showing up.

10:03SpeakerAnd honored to be with you, Marcus. Really excited to see the crew. And I remember one day in the Netherlands where we ended up at Sam's and had a few bong rips and Sam helped me to understand the error of my ways and that the open cannabis project was a fucking terrible bomb about ready to detonate. I think he was one of the first people who said, you know, with absolutely no minced words that that was not going to work in any sort of way, shape or form.

10:30SpeakerJust appreciating that moment when we were together. And the other ones. Anyways, so great to be here. Really, really a joy to connect on Clubhouse too. Seeing some like amazing dialogue and really, really the level of depth and conversation that just keeps it going, keeps it growing.

10:47Ryan Dank AfIt's funny, you know, I think I have pictures of all of us together outside that restaurant in Amsterdam. So I'm amazed that you guys didn't cross paths before then.

10:56SpeakerI think I did too, Ryan. Yeah.

10:59Ryan Dank AfYeah. It's pretty amusing. Jeremy's good shit. He's been a good friend for the last few years. I don't know when we crossed paths, Jeremy. I think it was 2013 or 2014 when you were speaking at the Emerald Cup on terpenes with Mark. But yeah, Jeremy, for those who don't know, he runs Proof Cultivation or does the cultivation and data analytics, I guess. Well, why don't you tell us what you're doing at Proof?

11:25Ryan Dank AfI'm going to let you put it in your own words, Jeremy, because it's some pretty impressive stuff down at Proof.

11:30SpeakerAnd thank you, Ryan. I admit, I just know that to have this time with you guys actually like means a lot. I haven't been on social media in two years until the last 24 hours and just kind of went underground because primarily proof has been the total focus. I really gave everything like every minute of every day for the last four years, pretty much to turn the ship.

11:51SpeakerI took over this high tech sort of indoor controlled environment facility about four and a half years ago. And it's been quite a ride when I started. There was a huge amount of pest pressure and all kinds of issues, but bottom line is we are now actually by sales data, the top producer in Oregon. We're all organic cultivation. I've been the director of production science. I've had an ops director.

12:14SpeakerThat's kind of my right-hand guy that ran a Microsoft factory and helped me to really bring like lean manufacturing and some really stringent approaches to consistent execution and I think we've done a lot of exciting things. We've done photo biology trials in partnership with a bunch of different university folks that have like Dave Hawley from Fluence and presented some data on far red wavelength at the Cannabis Science Conference a couple of years ago.

12:40SpeakerWe've done incredible agronomy. I think right now I'm in this huge wormhole of balancing minerals and really understanding sort of nutrition by diverse variety at a level that completely surpasses anything that I've experienced in the past. Being able to respond to some of the erratic and interesting things that show up that were entirely organic crop production, but also just excited to see the constantly booming yield by virtue of pursuing the data to the nth degree.

13:08SpeakerOne of the coolest parts was I actually worked with a team from Colorado that does a lot of data science and analytics. We built a custom platform called ProofOS that essentially was an environmental control system with a bunch of extra features. To bring in phenotyping capabilities. Back in the day, I actually did do some phenotyping partnership with Phylos, but then that all of course went to shit.

13:33SpeakerSo there's a bunch of other partners that I've worked with to do basic stuff. We don't have any kind of genomic science per se happening other than what we're doing with cultivar discovery. We've had some great seed sifts gone through about populations of a thousand seeds and had all kinds of exciting Sort of really unique varieties come out. I've of course been working on my own hybrids for a long time, but at Proof I've been able to actually grow many of them out and see some really exciting things like this dog walker strawberry Malawi cut that actually has the recessive pinene expression and it's getting like 6% total oil of all alpha and beta pinene.

14:10SpeakerI found an array of other really exciting type ones, but been principally focused on type two hybrids. I have a plant called Astral Works that I bred years ago. It's won a bunch of gold medals. Actually, one of the sweet spots, I'll just share this. This was a cross section of my life where in October, I won a gold medal at the Cultivation Classic, which was an event that I founded five years ago with Congressman Blumenauer.

14:32SpeakerIt's become the largest craft cannabis event in Oregon. And of course, Ryan, you came and blessed us and many others have joined over the years, but pandemic has fucked all that up. But anyways, it was amazing to kind of close the gap on the supply chain. Where Astroworks, the plant that I bred, won the gold medal in the type two category at the event that I'd started, which then was grown in the facility I direct and then sold at the retail I founded called Pharma.

14:58SpeakerAnd it was like each one of these things to me are weird in their own way. You know, they're distinct from the other versions of those things happening elsewhere. And I'm just trying to, in my own way, build a small narrative about some of the themes that I've learned from you and a lot of other people here, certainly Mark and Just Sam and Marcus. And they're trying to build this kind of different version of the supply chain while I'm watching all the capitalists crashing, going around in the market down here.

15:27SpeakerOf course, everybody's going fucking crazy now with federal regulatory reform around the corner. And there's lots of stupid money coming in again after a pretty big deficit. Four years ago, we didn't understand what would happen with the supply glut. We expected it, but then had to ride through that. It's been an incredible effort and efficiency and being pragmatic, but also pursuing as much research as I can.

15:50SpeakerSo some really exciting things in the controlled environment there and would love to get to share more about some of the strategies I've uncovered that have really helped to evoke some of the most expressive chemovars and just really thrilled about what's going on. But I've also finished my employment contract and now I'm engaged with a number of different producers internationally. I have a partnership in New Zealand that I'm really excited about They're doing shit differently.

16:13SpeakerThere's a Maori-owned company there called Rua Bioscience. Ethan and I were there in January or February, right, as the pandemic was hitting. And I'm really excited about what they're doing. They have a different sort of ethical spine than what you typically see here. It's a little, it's pretty inspiring. But anyways, that's some of the stuff. There's also actually one other thing I should mention, Ryan. There's a cool new advisory board role that I've just started.

16:38SpeakerI don't know if anybody's heard of Dr. Barry Bialek. Barry is an MD from Colorado who for 50 years has been going between Nepal and Colorado. And in Nepal at Kathmandu University, he's brought together a team that I think will probably over time ambition to include many of you. It's called the Multidimensional Cannabis Research Center. And they're building this really cool international collaboration near Center of Origin.

17:04SpeakerJust have some great vision about how he's approaching that and really including like You know, everything in the kitchen sink and the kind of research and approach they're doing. I'm hoping, you know, post-vaccine getting out there in October, getting to check up on them, but that's another neat thing that's just been bubbling. Anyways, just fucking great to get to be together with family on a Sunday with a lot of bowls to look forward to and ideas to share.

17:28BubblemanShout out to Nepal. Shout out to Mark Rose and Jyoti and the whole Nepali family who have been making and producing bubble bags almost since day one. My wife sewed up the first ones and we've had them made in Kathmandu ever since. So that's awesome to hear that that's going down in Kathmandu.

17:48Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd Mike Rose actually recently got in touch with us, which is really exciting because he has a beautiful piece of property outside of Kathmandu that he wants to completely and fully convert to regenerative Aaron Ward, Agriculture in Nepal is already burying logs on contour in the hillside, fully ready to sink and recharge the land with water and build the microbiology for those very extremely rare cultivars that can show up in Nepal at times.

18:19Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBig up to Mark Rose.

18:21SpeakerI want to express deep gratitude to Jeremy Plumb for hitting on type two cannabis. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Cause I really think that's where the magic and healing is.

18:37BubblemanWhy don't we get into a little bit of that conversation, the different types of cannabis, you know, just for, I mean, obviously you guys are all at the highest caliber, but it would be nice for some of the listeners to say, Hey, what, what does he, what did he mean by type two cannabis?

18:51SpeakerI could probably take a stab at that, Marcus. I'd love that. We've been in type twos for a long time. They're tasty. But what's cool is type one cannabis, as most of us are aware, is high THC cannabis. It was previously defined as having both two BTBT alleles, the THCA synthase genes. Type 3 cannabis is essentially your hemp, mostly CBD or not containing THC, as we are learning that hemp is defined by an arbitrary metric of less than 0.3% THCA and not much else.

19:33SpeakerAnd type two cannabis arises when you breed a type one parental with a type three parental and you get some sort of mixture of THC and CBD in the flower. And I think one of our really good favorite people on molecular farms, they started Really focus on creating parental lines in the type one world and the type three world, i.e. hemp and THC only plants. Ryan helped lay the foundations for that breeding program.

20:10SpeakerAnd what's really cool is they created parentals of type three hemp that have all of the noses that are commercially favorable and even some other noses that don't exist in the marketplace. They have a hemp line. Well, technically it's not hemp because it will go hot and have approximately 0.6% THCA, but it smells exactly like OG Kush. So if you take that type one that smells like OG Kush and the type three that smells exactly like OG Kush and you hybridize them, they will create a homozygous seed line that has a nose that's OG Kush and then a THCA to CBDA ratio that will vary depending on the parental.

20:53SpeakerCertain parentals will yield in the most common and most dominant Thank you for joining us.

21:19SpeakerAnd similarly, if you take a type two plant and you cross it with another type two plant, you'll get type one, two and three back out in that F1 population because it segregates. So as blessing may be, when they pass the farm bill, We had groups sitting on parentals of type three hemp that has all the beautiful noses and they're still being hoarded because the first two lines they let out were legendary OG and Jack's Blend and Heavenly Pepper, there were three.

21:54SpeakerAnd there wasn't any real hemp with terpenylene dominant noses in it. Prior to that, in the very next year, of course, everybody had terpenylene dominant. So some of these more exotic noses, they're hoarding until there's a way to create or find a group of farmers who want to exclusively grow these, you know, exotic pineapple, hemp, and all this different stuff. But it's really cool the way that you can create those parental lines.

22:25BubblemanThanks for sharing. I was wondering, maybe Ryan, if you could get into a little bit about what Mark was referring to when he said you laid some of that groundwork.

22:36Ryan Dank AfI was one of the first employees at Napro, so I was kind of brought in to set up the breeding programs, really. Yeah, so, I mean, we just, you know, the group down there had a bunch of affiliations with dispensaries, and the idea was to get some novel medicines for these dispensaries, and so... Through like a really big kind of market survey using a really sophisticated laboratory that we built, we were able to see what chemotypes existed in the marketplace, right?

23:14Ryan Dank AfEssentially, it was just a, you're just running thousands of samples through the lab and cataloging all the terpene profiles and the cannabinoid profiles. And in doing so, when you're starting to organize the data, you realize that there's groupings. Again, Mark can talk more about that. It's kind of he's been pushing that.

23:33SpeakerI want to talk about all the hugs you had to give me because of the freaking Girl Scout cookies vaporizer incidents where, you know, the panic attack came in. I was like, man, I wish we had a Girl Scout cookies type two so I wouldn't feel this way. Yeah.

23:50Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, I mean, I don't know. It's a different crowd here. I mean, I think most of the hash churchers are probably like pretty heavy type one dabbers. So, you know, dabbing the plants that are, you know, 25 to 30 plus THC acid percentage. Um, and in certain people that can induce anxiety when you hit it, if you take a big dab and we were rocking the volcano back in the day, uh, down at the farm or one of the farms.

24:15Ryan Dank AfAnd, um, Mark would have these anxiety moments where he'd have a big dab and would freak out about what was going on. I don't think it was only the THC. I mean, you had a pretty high pressure life at that point in time. A lot was on the line.

24:29SpeakerI think your body changes over time, too, because in college, you know, I'd get rosted before every practice and every football game. I'd get high before tests and everything. I wouldn't have a problem with high THC. And then it's like, I don't know, get a little older, a little wiser, got more bills to pay. I don't know. It's kind of interesting. But the type twos are perfect.

24:53SpeakerLike, I can smoke as much of a 1.5 to 1, like higher THC and CBD. And I get high, I get good, it lasts longer. I just don't get the where's my keys or the what the fuck, what's going on? You know what I mean? It's about feeling good. It's about feeling good as versus how high can you get. You can tear the top of your head off with enough THC and it doesn't feel good.

25:19SpeakerI love THC, but I've had too much a couple of times in my life and it's just not fun. Type twos, type twos, they dab beautifully and there's just this physical as well as mental experience of feeling good, which there's nothing wrong with feeling good. There's another interesting thing about the type twos that we discovered at the Cultivation Classic, which Dr. A.D. Ray ran the back end as a neuroscientist, evaluating judges who were actually like a massive group over many years.

25:52SpeakerWe're actually going to publish sometime shortly, I think, In the next hopefully month or two, this piece that summarizes all the findings, one of the most interesting things, the women overwhelmingly when blinded and randomized selected type two. And so we created this Women's Choice Award that was, you know, I don't think there has been trials like this with contemporary product, a large population over time with rigorous analytics.

26:20SpeakerAnd the sort of credibility that AD brings to the research piece. So really exciting to see that here's a product mix issue and not serving, you know, this broad demographic and like being inclusive with all the people coming in. I also agree that just with everything Mark said, I, I really genuinely like, I really love type twos in the daytime. I absolutely feel grounded, focused, and able to have kind of really, really tight focus on a task and carry through to complete execution.

26:49SpeakerI like the type ones a lot more in the night. I mean, it's just, that's been a lot of the rhythm, but I currently have about 14 different type twos. And of course we're working on different terpene dominance. Astroworks was a terpenylene dominant type two, which was funny because it definitely, I got some of that feedback. There were certainly some people that that was not a positive thing for, and then a lot of others that have really loved it.

27:12SpeakerFor me, it's a little bit psychedelic. I absolutely have an altered state of consciousness that's distinct from just high THC. There's a kind of an expansive state, but I think it's beautiful. And I love the idea that there's a way in which this might open the door to a whole lot of people that are not currently engaging with cannabis therapeutics to kind of replace way more harmful things and have a sustainable lifelong relationship with this beautiful plant.

27:40SpeakerIt's interesting you mentioned the product trials with specific audiences because, you know, I have a classical education in academia, so I presented a lot of non-cannabis conferences. And one of the most interesting conferences I Thank you so much for joining us today.

28:27SpeakerActually create a product that is targeted to a specific audience. And that's exactly what the innovations behind enhanced or type two flowers are. Our group calls them enhanced because when you get to the store level and the consumer level, they love them. But when you say, hey, type two, they got to get lost. But when you say enhanced, it's like enhanced with CBD or whatever. It sounds a little bit more palatable on the consumer tongue.

28:56BubblemanYou know, I kind of want to go down the rabbit hole of that anxiety experience because I have always smoked type one, like dabbed large rips, you know, had a high tolerance. You know, the first time I ever met Sam, I'm quite certain he was trying to kill me and he didn't. And I survived. And it's almost what bonded our friendship. I remember the next day when he smoked a bowl with someone at the cannabis cup and knocked them unconscious.

29:19BubblemanAnd then they got up and they had been sharing a booth with me. The guy was working for Hemp Employed and he said, oh, I want you to do that to him. And he was pointing to me and Sam was like, yeah, that's not going to happen to him sort of thing. And, you know, it wasn't until my father was killed in a motorcycle accident with his wife, my stepmother on a motorcycle.

29:38BubblemanI purchased him for his 50th birthday that I had this sort of trauma and stress that occurred in my body that had never occurred before in my life. And cannabis, high THC in particular, seemed to bring it up to the surface. And I can't say it was a bad thing because I think it's how I worked through that anxiety and stress. I pulled it out, I experienced it, I held it, and I transformed it.

30:03BubblemanAnd it took years, I'll be honest. It happened again years later when I was in a very bad dirt bike accident of my own. And I absolutely crushed my lower back. I mean, I was walking, you know, like, like, like a, like a baby for about three and a half months. I still have pain four years later. I go see an IMS guy all the time. And, you know, when it flares up, I, and I'll take that one really high THC, particularly high terpenoline, narrow leaf drug cultivar.

30:31BubblemanThat it almost flares up that pain and creates these sorts of anxiety attacks. Now, for me, I've sort of worked through those as well. And I've gotten back to that place where I can really enjoy a big dab. But those were two instances in my life where I was unable to take big dabs. Even in my YouTube videos, you know, I'll do the video where I did the rosin press.

30:53BubblemanIt's got almost five million views on it. And I took a half pound and I ran it through the peer pressure. And at the end, I take a little dab. There's probably 100 people on there that comment on the small size of the dab that I took. Well, the cultivar was, where is my bike? And where is my bike is a biker cush crossed with an amnesia haze.

31:10BubblemanSo it's extremely high in terpene lean. And it's a very strong cultivar that gives people anxiety attacks. And I wonder if we could get into that. What is the psychology of that? Are we pulling up stress to transform it? Is it finding something that's there that needs to be processed? Or are we just at a point in our lives where we need to look at maybe some of the type two and type three plants?

31:36SpeakerI can speak for the chemistry, if you want. So, terpenylene is basically a structural isomer with limonene. And on the Phytofax, terpenylene's red because of that exact reason. It's like one of the most sativa, it gives you the most sativa-like effects, right? Limonene is also a stimulant and an antidepressant. The only difference between the two molecules is the location of the double bond. And the first time I ever smoked a terpenoline cultivar was train wreck in Santa Barbara and some dude's house who he slept on the couch and every bedroom had black and white paper being sucked in from all the carbon filters.

32:16SpeakerAnd I had the same experience Marcus was describing with David where I was like, oh shit, he's setting me up. Somebody's coming to bust me right now. And it was like, then after that, we super bonded. And it was the research we did with the type two terpenolene cultivars where we noticed in the blind study that as you added CBD to THC, the terpene entourage effect became more apparent.

32:46SpeakerYou know, people would feel that stimulating effect. And we also used to just take terpenes and put them on the volcano and inhale them and see how they made us feel, right? And terpenylene and sometimes made things sparkly and definitely increased your heart rate, like with limonene, make you talk a little faster. That's kind of the background on that.

33:07BubblemanThanks, Mark. Sam, you had something to say?

33:10Jeremy PlumYeah, but I'm spaced out and I forgot.

33:13BubblemanWe were talking about anxiety and stress and, you know, inducing those things when they're deep down.

33:20Jeremy PlumNo, I was just going to say that a lot of times it's fear of, like with psychedelics, it's fear of the fear that Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

33:55Ryan Dank AfThat's kind of been anecdotal about those amnesia hazes and that class of weed. For years, people have said that, you know, it kind of makes them squirrely. So there might actually be something to that. I think something that maybe wasn't totally clear when Mark was describing the ratios and the type twos, when we started doing all these crosses and making these original type two lines from unstabilized parents, we realized that there was different Plants that would essentially spit different ratios of cannabinoids in the offspring.

34:28Ryan Dank AfSo we had, you know, the first ones to come out were like the, like Mark was saying, the one to twos, the one to ones, and then the two to ones. We always put THC first because it's, you know, in the ratio just because it's easy to understand. For most people, it's the number most people are looking at. But after breeding and creating parental lines that would make each of those crosses and doing some kind of nifty breeding tricks in between the types, we actually found that there was plants that were like four to one THC to CBD and eight to one THC to CBD or sorry, THC to CBD.

35:07Ryan Dank AfAnd those numbers aren't really like those plants, you have to do special breeding tricks to pull them out. Like they're not just floating around. Thank you for joining us today.

35:37Ryan Dank AfWhich for some people is just too much. You know, there's a whole segment of the population. I know everybody likes to do these massive dabs and get as high as you can. But when you, you know, when you're using cannabis for medicine and you don't come from that world where you're just trying to get blissed all the time, there are adverse, you know, some of these, these anxiety effects that you have with THC are kind of like adverse, right?

35:58Ryan Dank AfIt's not It's not ideal for mom to be getting way too high to the point where she doesn't want to use the medicine, right? Because you lose the benefit. You lose the medical benefit if you're getting too high. You're scaring people away from the medicine. And so having these, you know, what we realize is that having these kind of different levels of CBD buffer, it kind of takes the edge off the THC for a whole different group of people.

36:25Dr Mark ScialdoneCould that be action on dopamine release? Because I think CBD is different than THC, isn't it?

36:37Ryan Dank AfWhen we're talking about these kind of things, for me, it's like, you know, I studied neuroscience in university. And after coming out of that process, my feeling on the brain is that we're still just pushing buttons. Right. Like, what does this lever do kind of thing? It's because there's such complicated hairballs, right? It's like THC interacts with dopamine, which crosstalks with norepinephrine, which, you know, impacts the opioid system and serotonin.

37:07Ryan Dank AfTo say conclusively that X does Y is really, really difficult, especially when we're essentially just speculating it mechanically.

37:15SpeakerAnd we find a new receptor every month, or not literally, but kind of, and I think it's going to have to be big data that ever figures it out. No human's going to figure it out. It's going to be big blue or whatever. On a individual basis, it's really important to remember every person's endocannabinoid system is different, and their need for this cannabis chemistry differs. I love the idea of building data sets so we can sort of generalize more fully.

37:41SpeakerBut yeah, our bodies are not single molecule systems and the plant is not single molecule. So it's really, I love that image of a hairball of things going on in the body.

37:55Ryan Dank AfIt's a big knot. It's like a big yarn knot, right? Like how do you tease that whole thing apart when you're trying to understand the bits at play? And, you know, we exist in a system where You know, a doctor doesn't like the idea of having to try you on 10 different drugs before they figure out which one works. They want to say, oh, you're this type.

38:13Ryan Dank AfWe need to give you this type of drug. And we're just not at that point in time yet. But the range of type 2 plants that we now have, and I assume, Mark, that you've continued to put those cannabinoid ratios into all the different flavor profiles. It's like you're essentially creating a spectrum of plants that people can then You know, choose from and really, you know, sounds lame, but it's like choosing your own adventure, right?

38:39Ryan Dank AfLike you can dial the We've got a couple of questions here. We've got a couple of questions here.

38:46SpeakerWe've got a couple of questions here. We've got a couple of questions here.

39:09SpeakerSo it's basically all the flavors of a gassy OG and the THC to CBD ratios cross the whole spectrum. And, you know, you mentioned, you know, all the people on this show are big dabbers or whatever, but We have consumers that once we turn them on to an enhanced or like a one to one or two to one dab, that's how they start the day. And they find and even in the surveys show that they feel like they get higher at night when they use their type one again.

39:42SpeakerSo it's almost like you look at the science and McPartland and The study of Australia, it's like you have this endocannabinoid tone or health that you're trying to maintain. And if you're constantly banging a large signal of 80% THC, your body actually changes and you start down-regulating receptors. So not only is your ball of yarn or hairball Thanks for joining us.

40:30SpeakerAnd also, there's something about what Marcus brought up as he intro'd this that I really wanted to catch that I love. There's a psychological perspective about anxiety, different than biochemical. I think about the role of anxiety, and this is my background. My graduate degree was at Pacifica. I was really a Jungian. But the reality is, I think about the ego dystonic experience. And the way in which one of the things universal to psychedelics is that you must have this ego dystonic moment in order to have the opportunity to leave behind a lot of the baggage and complexity of this kind of last awareness to be very, very present.

41:11SpeakerI think about fear, as Sam brought up, and the kind of low-laying latent anxiety, like modern living disease, and the way in which most of us throughout varying levels of stress that would surpass what other humans and other generations may have even possibly conceived of. There is a fundamental stress baseline that I think is quite high. You can look at epinephrine and biochemistry and stuff, but the bottom line is I think we're primarily producing cortisol throughout the day Most of the time, I actually did a trial at one point where I had heart rate monitoring and I was really working to understand at what point I could reduce cortisol production.

41:50SpeakerI could not even get to that state in a sitting, meditating position. The only way I could achieve it was in a slow walking meditation, following really slow breathing. And eventually I got there and then realized we're basically on these really hard drugs so much of the time. And this of course is very damaging, but Again, back to the anxiety. I feel there's, like Marcus was saying, an invitation towards an opportunity to be present and to filter some of the fear and the latent trauma and the experiences that hopefully do get cleared.

42:23SpeakerSo I think there's a really, like I've always been a pretty high anxiety person. I think that's one of the things that's drawn me to cannabis in general, that I've been able to mitigate the worst expressions of that and be high functioning by virtue in part, and especially in the last eight years or so with type twos. I'm excited about what that represents. And that also one other thing you said, Mark, just this notion that I actually get, I really enjoy my type one highs more.

42:48SpeakerThere's a dimensionality. There's something it's punctuated. When I get into a groove where I'm on type one, a whole bunch throughout many, many days, it's just, it, it flattens out. I'm missing nuance and depth and dimension. It's opening up this much bigger space. So I really love that diverse endocannabinoid diet to accommodate also diverse endocannabinoid tone. I just think it's such a cool direction. You know, one thing more, I'll go ahead, Kelly.

43:17SpeakerHi, everybody. And welcome. Oh, thank you so much. It's so nice to be here. The conversation is super important and really awesome. I just think that when we're talking about cannabis and we're talking about analgesic effects of cannabis, I think that it's really important that we don't forget that this is a conscious changing plant. This is not necessarily a symptomatic plant. This plant can get to the root of things Thank you so much for joining us.

43:59SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

44:27SpeakerIt's going to be going to the root. It's going to be attacking. It's going to be breaking down those subconscious layers that we have that hold us back from our ultimate healing. And that's where we're talking about fear. We're talking about all these things because we also have pain as associated We have emotional ties, just like you were saying, Mark, you know, when you hurt your back, there's so much emotions that are tied into that.

44:56SpeakerLike we have symptoms upon immediate effect of some type of an injury. And then when we ingest cannabis, it brings it all up to the surface. So in talking about the scientific measures of it and talking about the cannabinoids, There's this whole unknown that comes into play. Maybe Jeremy, you were talking about it as the ego, and I'd like to go even deeper than the ego. This is our ultimate bodily function that we have and how we're dealing.

45:27SpeakerAnd of course, cortisol is a huge player to this. So when people are ingesting, it's like they have to, how many layers of onion, you know, do you have to be able to get to the center of dealing with the issue that you're trying to get to? And I find that in dealing with patients, you know, I'll be treating a knee injury. And then one month later, wow, we really were dealing with some massive childhood trauma that the plant brought up all of these different symptoms.

46:00SpeakerAnd then that was what healed the knee. So I think that if we pull more away from symptomatic healing, which is what allopathy and which is what Western medicine has shown us, Then we will be aligning with the true healing nature of this plant, which is to bring science and bring observational experience, to bring emotional experience and not differentiate when we talk about pain and healing, that we don't differentiate the physical pain and healing.

46:35SpeakerWith the emotional pain and healing because they are all one and the plant continues to show us that.

46:40Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineI would just add that you know our disposition of our microbiome affects our endocannabinoid system so health and well-being through food is going to affect the cannabis as it comes in. Also toxicity in the plant can often create Thank you so much for joining us today.

47:24Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineWe love and appreciate you all.

47:26SpeakerI'm sorry, just to jump on it one more time. I believe that when we talk a lot about the science and we're pushing a lot about the cannabinoids, that we really need to almost step back a little bit and we need to not ask more of the plant. Thank you for joining us today.

47:58SpeakerLike all of these finite answers and magical remedies without letting her just sort of unravel and show herself and watch the experience that we're all having with this plant rather than trying to come to definitive definitions of it right away because each person is having such a differential experiential effect. I couldn't agree more with that. I mean, when we do our panels, one of the things we notice is that it's not just a high, it's a behavioral distinct change.

48:35SpeakerThings taste better. Things feel better. You're more intuitive. So there is definitely a spiritual component. And what's beautiful about chemistry is that you can take a dive into everything that I mean, you can look at thousands of compounds that are in this plant. I mean, you can dig down to the heavy metals, the flavonoids, the terpenes, and then you can cross compare and analyze and have a whole panel where people discuss, you know, it changes the flavor of salts to some, it makes sweets sweeter to others.

49:06SpeakerAnd it ties right back into what Rafi Mushulam says, where he thinks that the, you know, The endocannabinoid system has a major contribution to your personality, right, Ryan? I mean, that's one of his famous sayings.

49:24SpeakerYeah, there's another thing that we would be remiss to bring up as Mojave is not with us today. And Mojave has a variety that he's worked with for a very long time called Zeta. It's a terpenylene dom variety. It reminds me a bit of Zelly's Gift, actually. Which I love that plant. She's so beautiful. But I think of Mojave reminiscing about moderate THC combined with terpenylene as the spiritual plant from Big Sur and in this population at the root of that kind of moment in time was the most sought after and spiritual cannabis.

50:00SpeakerI just think it's fascinating though that that was, again, probably like 10 to 15%. THC and Terpenyline Dom. And I think that's a really beautiful profile.

50:11Collin PalmerAnd hey, this is Colin. This is also touching on a conversation we had the other day, which was the physiological and the sense of memory tied to the different terpene profiles or chemical profiles. I think there's a lineage directly correlated to those things. And in how we're associating our personal You know, opinions of what is good and what is bad. And over the years, you know, terpenylene I think has been a dominant in terms of everyone's flavor profile.

50:44Collin PalmerAnd I think there's no mistake over that. There's definitely some memory sensories, you know, being evoked in things in, you know, in our bodies and in our minds. And I think that's also the connection that happens with all these different chemicals is the sensory of memory and how that brings us into now.

51:04SpeakerYeah, and I believe one of our trials also showed that, you know, you add a little bit of CBD and it actually helps with the memory loss issue. So there's definitely formulations for that. And, you know, that's why we like to call the type twos enhanced because we feel like they can enhance every aspect of your life, whether it's, you know, waking up in the morning, being creative, going on a run, Or partying down.

51:28SpeakerIt's like there's this ability to find a chemical mixture cocktail that's going to improve your life. And, you know, what in the world isn't chemistry, you know? Yeah, you know, also, I've noticed that a little splash of that CBD and working with patients over the years, and then really finiting our one to one, I really am believing that that splash of CBD is what brings those cortisol levels down, which helps You know, have a recognition of what is actually going on.

52:11SpeakerWe as carers, you know, need to focus. I think that that CBD brings it down just and realize where the medicine needs to go. Also something that we're not talking about here is that in working with patients, There's an incredible, integral, almost electric energy that's going on when a person is ingesting cannabis. It's so experiential. It's so incredibly personal that almost to have a relationship With the person that is offering the medicine to you or Dr. Lewis, you know, you're talking about having patient studies.

52:55SpeakerHaving these patient studies that are more intimate and more involved, I'm finding we really get to the root of things much faster, which is, again, not an allopathic model. It's following something a little bit more different, a little bit more natural, and following more about what the plant... Kelly, there's a wonderful piece there with psychopharmacology. There's this whole body of research that illustrates, say you give somebody an SSRI and they have depressive features, you'll actually find statistically over time, very often that will not benefit the person at all.

53:31SpeakerBut if you pair that with counseling, now you have this unbelievable opportunity. So it's a relational element that I feel is often missing in our therapeutic conversation. I've approached that in a way at the pharma counter that I got to experiment with a huge community of patients where it always felt like when people were new to cannabis, there was the simple orientation to here's an array of phytochemical profiles, but you know, don't attach too much value to that, but at least have some association with what sort of different profiles you're consuming, but then, you know, titration and dosage start with these tiny increments and really get to know those different increments at different times.

54:10SpeakerAnd then, Let's move into the delivery systems and here's this array of different ways to relate with the plant. At some point, bringing in a journaling process and an observation process and then watching people's lives transform again and again by essentially providing Both education, but more than that, empath attunement, really feeling into that hugeness. If somebody approaches the possibility of bringing an altered state of consciousness into their life, I do think to help that altered state of consciousness to then sort of be midwifed or carried toward a sort of therapeutic direction can be a relational dynamic.

54:49SpeakerAnd that cannabis very often provides that opportunity. The spirit is there, but also now there's This one other element that I feel community actually needs to uphold and to hit that highest level of meaningful benefits. It's great because that's what the plant medicine continues to teach us over and over again is that set in setting. And how wonderful that now plant medicine is even infiltrating into Western medicine.

55:16SpeakerAnd they're even starting to have conversations about set in setting and maybe even painting their offices a color that is more soothing to their patients. These things that are all coming from plant medicine. You said color. You said color. That's why we developed the Phytofacts was because people couldn't know what was in their medicine.

55:39Jeremy PlumI have a question for you, Dr. Lewis, which is what's type four, type five, type six?

55:53SpeakerWhat's four is what, CBGA? I believe so. Five is cannabinoid-less?

56:00Dr Mark ScialdoneRose by any other name. Who cares? Who cares?

56:04SpeakerWell, it's important because right now this is a one-dimensional product in a marketplace that craves multi-dimensional products. You add CBD, now you have a two-dimensional product. Plus with all the terpenes. Oh, look, there's a Phytofax. That's nice.

56:18Jeremy PlumI absolutely agree with you.

56:21SpeakerSo when you're dealing with all of these things, these components, and then you have the cultivar or strain names on top of it, it creates this white noise where no one can hear anything. And this is why we developed the FidoFax was so that people could look at a tool and recognize things. For instance, somebody comes in and They're looking for something that's limonene dominant, and they usually use the Space Force One that's on the right.

56:50SpeakerIt's a high THC thing. But then they have all these other googly gob names out there. I don't know. I've heard a bunch on this podcast.

57:00Ryan Dank AfWe put these up a lot. I just think that a lot of people have seen these for the first time. So why don't you walk us through the different sections of the Fido Facts so people can understand how to read them, like the Canada Dial and then the, you know.

57:13SpeakerSounds good.

57:14Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineSo if you, if you look at the box, sorry, Marcus, can you make that a little bigger? Cause I feel, I find it a little hard to read. And if you, if you could, that would be cool. Bring the screen in, but go ahead.

57:24Ryan Dank AfYou can also zoom it in on your computer control plus, or if you're on a Mac, just use your, your, your scroll pad or whatever.

57:32Etienne FontanYeah. On zoom also, you can move your bar over so it gets larger. Nice.

57:39SpeakerCool, while he messes with that, I'll get started here.

57:41Dr Mark ScialdoneSo are these deterping profiles of cured bud or a fresh harvest?

57:47SpeakerOkay, these are, so the reason that this was developed, just to give you a little backstory here, was back in the wild, wild west days at dispensaries, you know, intake day where they were buying flowers would be a line of, People out the door with duffel bags and, you know, managers would be on the spot to, Etienne knows exactly what I'm talking about, especially in Berkeley. I mean, you would have like 80 people lined up, half of them with dirty fingernails and like cat hair in their weed.

58:26Etienne FontanOh yeah, so much cat hair, dog hair sometimes. Check it out right, yeah.

58:32SpeakerDude, we found bloody razor blades. I mean, you name it, it's in there. And you would actually be physically sick for a day or two after from smelling all the mold and pests and pathogens that are, you know, coming up. Anyway. So we would find that there was no quality standard for the products being purchased. And, you know, favoritism was a thing. We got commissioned to create a certificate of analysis for finished products.

58:59SpeakerSo this isn't a phytofax of a wet flower. These are chemical analysis of finished products. And starting at the top or at the very bottom, because it ties into the top, is the phytoprint. That's essentially a terpene fingerprint. That is, you know, our laboratory analyzes like 60 plus low molecular weight and high molecular weight terpenes and molecules that actually create the total nose bouquet. These aren't all of the molecules that contribute to the flavor and aroma, but they are the top 17 that are commonly occurring and most biologically relevant.

59:40SpeakerOkay. So it's color coded from just like ROYGBIV, like a rainbow. And the warm tones are associated with sativa-like effects. We don't have a terpenylene dominant plant in here, but that would be the red bar at the very top. And you've heard us discuss how terpenylene has a tendency to Thank you for joining us today.

1:00:19SpeakerThose represent kind of sativa-like plants. And then as you go down into the green, it's pinene, you know, the blues are your sesquiterpenes, your hemolynes, your caryophyllenes, and then linalool and myrcene are at the bottom. They're more associated with your indica-like effects. So you can kind of associate your cultivar name. So like if you look at a Girl Scout cookies, if it would be just beta caryophylline dominant with little healing and limonene, little mercy.

1:00:52SpeakerAnd then once you find a cultivar you like based on nose and flavor, you don't have to remember all the strain names associated with it. It just becomes color pattern recognition, which is way easier for our simple minds to grasp. I like the purple ones. I like the yellow ones. And, you know, David liked the red ones, right? So if you go back.

1:01:15Ryan Dank AfIt's important to notice too that like, The colors, for example, that you see on this bottom bar graph, like the actual colored bar graph, is correlated to the entourage effect and the smell and the aroma. So you can see that the entourage effect, they're also color-coded. So, for example, on this one that we're looking at here on the left, it's hyanosamine, which is the orange on the lower section of the phytoprint.

1:01:42Ryan Dank AfWhere the terpene profile is, you can, if you look up one panel above it on the right side, you can see that it's also highest in the orange triangle, which is associated with calm, right? So the idea is that this is a lab report format that either that a lab will give you that you might see at a dispensary or you might see it on a packaging.

1:02:04Ryan Dank AfBut the idea is that Like Mark is saying, even without getting in all the nitty gritty details, you're subliminally being fed these messages. Like Mark, can you actually scroll up a little bit since you're sharing your screen?

1:02:18Dr Mark ScialdoneHow much do you see in terpene profile from harvest to harvest, from grow to grow? It seems like that would be really variable and that ultimately is going to affect that graph above. And the other thing I just wanted to ask you, Mark, we had an interesting discussion Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:03:04Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, terpenylene is one of, what, four isomers of terpenene. And all of those can oxidize to terpenol. And terpenol certainly has a very different fragrance than terpenylene itself. So I was wondering if you could comment on how these terpene profiles change between harvest and cure.

1:03:27SpeakerOK. Real quick, I'll hit that in a second. You see the cultivar name at the top of this report, and then the top three terpenes create that color code. So that was the pattern recognition I was talking about. Now, when we discovered, so one of the things we do in the laboratory when we're trying, you know, skunk works. Pun intended, actually. We'll buy analytical standards and we'll smell them, you know, because we'll find little blips and hit on the mass spec and determine its molecular weight and be like, oh, I wonder if it's this or that.

1:04:02SpeakerAnd one day we opened up a bottle of hexyl butyrate. And it's it's it smells like Luden's cherry cough drops. I mean, it literally astringent cherry makes your mouth water as soon as you smell it.

1:04:16Dr Mark ScialdoneSo very different than butyric acid, right?

1:04:20SpeakerVery, very different. Yes. And so it smells like puke. So what we did was we went straight to the chromatograms. Well, we shot that on the GC. We looked at its retention time. We looked at all the chromatograms for all the plants that we'd analyzed, and we found little blips. Then we immediately called up Molecular Farms and said, hey, these code numbers have those blips. Start inbreeding them.

1:04:46SpeakerAnd they, they inbred like four generations until that blip became so concentrated, it was almost 1% hexalbutyrate. And I mean, that plant, when it's in the field, you get that little trichome rub and smell it, makes your mouth water, smells like Luden's cherry cough drops. It's pinene dominant with myrcene in it. You take that plant and you cure it. I dry it and cure it. You know, it's best fresh, not like sitting for a month or anything.

1:05:16SpeakerBut over time, the hexalbutyrate will just, and it'd be gone because it's a low molecular weight terpene, right? And dry.

1:05:26Dr Mark ScialdoneIs that just evaporation? It's not transforming into something else.

1:05:30SpeakerCorrect.

1:05:30Dr Mark ScialdoneCorrect. Just fugitive. Okay.

1:05:32SpeakerYeah. So, so, and if you, it can, Let me back up. It can transform to something else if you leave it in the jar too long and it get oxidized. But if you look at the flowers on the plant, I'm sorry, the terpenes on the plant to the finished product, there can be little change or there can be massive change to the relative profile. And it all depends on your post-harvest, post-processing conditions.

1:06:07SpeakerAnd that's one of the things that NAPRO really helps cultivators with because most cultivators, and I know that the people listening to the show aren't most cultivators, The people on the show probably know how to dry and cure a plant to preserve their terpenes, but most people destroy the plant. They're worried about cost of goods. They're worried about business stuff. Not like us. We worship the plant.

1:06:37SpeakerWe want that exact flavor of a fresh flower in our products at the end because that smells so freaking good and it tastes so good. You know, we work with folks on the hemp side who do terpene distillation of the hemp, and they exclusively beg for the BI hemp genetics because they have that happy pineapple in hemp. They have pinene-dominant cultivars in hemp, so they can get those cannabis-derived terpenes, and they literally chop the plant down and throw it in the extractor immediately.

1:07:15SpeakerDon't freeze it. Don't take it anywhere. And the terpene profiles are very, very similar to those that you find in the plant. And then those cannabinoid or those hemp or cannabis-derived terpenes can be used in vape pens in the THC marketplace. And when you hit those vape pens and exhale, it smells like fresh flower. It's really amazing. And I'd like to If you want to pull up the Fido facts, I can finish going through it or we can ditch it.

1:07:44SpeakerIt's up to you, Marcus. You're the sort of the moderator, but I would like to Show that, you know, this thing has these two bar charts at the top that have cannabinoids and terpenoids. And we set the scale at 25% and 2.5% because when people would come to the dispensaries with, you know, pounds from the hill or whatever, if we just looked at these two bars and they were pegged, the manager would know that's a good flower.

1:08:11SpeakerThat's, that's, that's some good shit. But Most of the stuff in California, even to this day, doesn't test above 1.5% TURP, sometimes in the 2% range. And, you know, cannabinoids are all over the place and it depends on your laboratory and whatnot. But you go down below that bar chart and you have a dial of THC to the next highest cannabinoid. In this case of Happy Pineapple, it's CBGA.

1:08:40SpeakerSo this is about 20% THC, about 8% CBG.

1:08:45SpeakerAnd this is a very, very unique cultivar. It tastes delicious. And when you long cure this particular flower, it takes on a distinct vanilla aroma. It's totally unique. But when it's fresh, it smells straight up like fresh pineapple because, you know, this osamine dominance There was only one plant of osamine dominant cannabis ever tested in the state of California until like two and a half, three years ago.

1:09:16Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd now is there more?

1:09:19SpeakerThere's a couple more. Yeah. Well, I mean, most of I mean, the molecular has about 10 of them that go through the system.

1:09:25Dr Mark ScialdoneBut, you know, there was a live resident of this tastes like. Yeah, I was going to ask Dr. Lewis.

1:09:32SpeakerWe've only done the... And shout out to Marcus for turning us on to the peer pressure. We've only done the flower rosin. They just...

1:09:45SpeakerThey just planted enough this spring to be able to do a large run of, you know, the bubble hash to live rosin thing. I'm more of a scientist and, you know, I oversee the quality control of those types of things, but there's like hash experts that do that stuff. And we just do the chemical analysis, right? Or offer ways to improve the performance of their extraction.

1:10:11Jeremy PlumI have a question for you, Dr. Lewis. With your Fido facts, the happy pineapple, it shows what, like an orangish color, then blue, then green. Why those colors?

1:10:25SpeakerBecause osamine is colored orange and it's the top terpene, beta-caryophyllene is blue in the phytoprint, and it's the second most abundant, and the green is the piney.

1:10:38Jeremy PlumYeah, I can't see the entire bottom of the phytopact, so that's why I'm... Gotcha. Now it becomes much more apparent.

1:10:48SpeakerRight. So, so then you think about the smoothness of a smoke, right? Like, because that was one of the things that, you know, Ryan and I always wanted was smooth smoke. It all has to do with having beta-caryophyllene in there. I mean, that really takes the edge off of any terpene and You know, some terpenes, if you like alpha pinene, if it's really pinene dominant and there isn't a whole lot of anything else, it can be pretty harsh on the back of your throat.

1:11:18SpeakerSo it's similarly with terpenylene, but You have to balance that. And when you're breeding parentals or other things for a product, you have to take all of that into account. You can't just pheno hunt, you know? I mean, that's part of it. That's the funnest part, but you have to be really thoughtful in how you design a new technology, like a plant, like this Holy Crunch right here.

1:11:45SpeakerI mean, this thing has 28%. You know, cannabinoids, and it's beta-carotene, limonene. It's a one-to-one, basically. And it is the smoothest, tastiest smoke. And most people, you... A lot of these products, you just have people smoke them and they can't distinguish, you know, they'll be like, that's great. And like, hey, you know, that's an enhanced, you know, type two. And I'm like, no way. I'm like, yeah, see, you can get high off this stuff.

1:12:15SpeakerIt's not CBD is not a buzz killer. It just makes you feel good. You know what I mean? And it's like, this one is very, very popular. It actually won the Emerald Cup in last year. Last year? Yeah, I think so. In the CBD flower category.

1:12:32Jeremy PlumTechnically, CBD can be a buzz killer. If you smoke 100 milligrams of pure CBD early in the morning, then try to smoke even 100 milligrams of THC. But wait like a half an hour or so. And you'll find out that the THC has little or no effect if you pledge yourself with CBD first.

1:13:00SpeakerYeah, well, nobody, I don't think anyone really wants to bludgeon themselves with CBD when they wake up in the morning. It's painful.

1:13:08Ryan Dank AfSo there's a couple of things with type twos in the marketplace. I mean, they've tried to roll them out. And granted, I think the vast majority of type twos that have been on the market in Canada have been machine dominant. They're all Canatonic and Canatonic hybrids.

1:13:25Ryan Dank AfBut they they're having like zero uptake on the market, right? Like it's all type one. Everybody wants everything over 20 percent.

1:13:33SpeakerActually, Ryan, there's an amazing shift that's been happening in the Oregon market. We've been fighting this battle for a while, of course, to production space.

1:13:42Ryan Dank AfI know it happens down there in California. I'm just trying to make a point about the Canadian marketplace, how it's not able to adopt. So you guys have been able to do a bunch of product knowledge, you know, market education that has led to the acceptance, right? So how do we go about doing that in markets where they're not as refined? Like how do you go about rolling out a new market?

1:14:08SpeakerThe question often is the popular education element combined with the genetics, combined with the talented folks who are producing, breeding, growing. But I really love that. I think Cultivation Classic was a big impact in Oregon market because there was huge emphasis on type two. It got equal attention to ones and threes. And obviously there was way fewer entries. But I just remember back to only three years ago when I was trying to sell type twos and couldn't get $400 a pound.

1:14:37SpeakerI am now selling Astralworks. And this is one of the more exciting personal accomplishments that exists for at least more than the cost of production. And it is finally a viable product that lives. And now there's about three other products that are also almost at that level. It's been such a battle though. Like you said, I just, the question is really how do we help a lot of people come into a kind of new awareness about a new product category?

1:15:01SpeakerI loved what Mark said that there really are these kind of entirely new categories. And this is why I like types. I mean, the CBG dominant varieties now seeing type four hybrids coming into this new space. I'm really excited to see, like, I've yet to see a type four hybrid on the market in the rec market. And I feel like that's going to represent a whole new set of Interesting possibilities.

1:15:29SpeakerAnd I've yet to see a Type 4 hybrid with terpenes. Like somehow when they knocked out that cannabinoid pathway, I mean, they don't test higher than 0.6% terps. It's very bizarre. But they smell kind of like, all of them have a similar like citrusy kind of smell note to them. And they look really beautiful, like frosty, kind of like Blackberry Kush did back in the day. Remember it like was the frostiest flower and Like, where's the trichome heads?

1:15:57SpeakerBut pretty, pretty interesting production plant there.

1:16:01BubblemanHey, guys, this might be a good opportunity to hear from a few people who we haven't heard from. I thought Alec was going to come in and sort of introduce his friend Joe, who I'm actually just meeting. So I wanted to maybe get an introduction from you, Joe. I hear you're going to be doing some of the Emerald Cup flower judging this year, and Alec thought it would be good for you to be a part of the conversation.

1:16:26BubblemanOnce we've heard from you, I would love to hear from Mojave, and then I would also love to hear from Peter, and then we can get right back into our conversation.

1:16:35SpeakerAwesome. Yeah, thanks for having me. Obviously, there's a bunch of legible on this panel. Super, super happy to be here. Alex, a good friend. I've been in the industry a little over 20 years. I host a cannabis education talk show on the radio here, Sonoma County. Also been an Emerald Cup flower judge for a couple of years. I'm also a buyer for a couple of dispensaries in our area.

1:16:59SpeakerSo it's awesome to hear you guys talk about terpenes. Dr. Lewis, I was actually can sympathize with sitting in those rooms when people were coming down off the hill and those lines, you know, kind of going through those different bags. It's kind of awesome. We were one of the first dispensaries to do require testing. That's kind of how I have my relationship with Alec over at SC Labs.

1:17:19SpeakerWe've been rolling out a whole terpene education program over the last six months. And then, yeah, with the judging this year, it's funny. I've actually been listening to you guys talk. I love it. I'm really curious to know kind of what those terpene levels are in some of those enhanced strains you're talking about. That's actually how I've been curating now with the terpene profiles on the R&D.

1:17:40SpeakerIt allows me to have a more diverse menu on the shelf and really start to focus on the terpenes and the different effects you're getting from those plants with their relationship with the cannabinoids. And it's not just all about those 20, 25% hitters. So yeah, we're going through the flowers right now. I actually have a bunch of them right here. It's kind of cool. They're actually, you can see they're typed out by their different...

1:18:03SpeakerI'm working my way through that right now. And yeah, it's really interesting. But I am curious to know kind of what those terpene levels are that you're seeing in those enhanced strains. So yeah, thank you guys. I'm really happy to be here. Hey, are you using the FidoFax now that SE Labs is pumping them out? Yeah, we've been using the FidoFax for a while. I started, we started reaching out obviously for myself.

1:18:28SpeakerI started watching cultivars die in our space as growers were unable to make money off them anymore because they didn't hit certain THC percentages, which we know with the labs can vary so much, right? And so when we switch from our traditional market days to the new rec days, the way it was marketed is everyone's coming in for that, you know, that that liquor proof, you know, it's like you don't go to the bar looking for 100 proof schnapps all the time.

1:18:55SpeakerYou might want a beer, you might want something a little lighter. So everyone's been kind of trained We've been working with SC to go to that THC. And so using the Fido facts, we actually have a QR code that we put on all the flavors that are displayed in the store next to the terpene wheel. And it kind of directs them straight to those. And so getting people to understand it, it starts with the bud tenders.

1:19:15SpeakerAt our store, we're lucky enough to see around 25,000 people a month. And so for us, we feel like that's a good platform to start.

1:19:28SpeakerAnd you start looking at these different R&D tests and you start and you start seeing where the terpenes are and you start noticing that you know mostly if you're seeing those top 25-30% THC with like you were saying in our marketplace mostly it's around one percent terpene you know a little less you're basically looking at biomass in my opinion so For us, being able to curate something that's beneficial on a medicinal level, considering that we were rooted in that, and that's kind of our culture here in our area, is the medicinal benefits from the plant.

1:19:59SpeakerIt's really being able to pair that right cultivar with the person. So yeah, it's been a challenge, but that's why conversations like this are so important, and I feel so great to be here.

1:20:11Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, thanks. Thanks for that. Oh, I was just going to add on something that he just said. So does it matter if labs like SC labs are in sort of high throughput testing mode and using GC to profile their terpenes? Or I think you guys use HPLC. Is there going to be a real big difference?

1:20:29SpeakerNo, just so there's a little background on NAPRO. I brought a bunch of chemists from my grad school from Big Pharma to help develop these methodologies. And we wrote a paper. We validated a method for a robust, reliable, Thank you for joining us today.

1:21:07SpeakerYou know, doing that conformational bias thing where like, well, if we say it's 28%, we're going to get more business. And it's like, that doesn't work when you're trying to, you know, create a real industry, right? Like you don't go to the pharmacy and pick up the generic Tylenol and look at it and be like, oh, it says it's 500 milligrams and it's really only 200. So we made that paper open source and the laboratories based their methods off of it.

1:21:39SpeakerAnd groups like SC Labs, we work We serve as clients who are producers, who are distributors, who we actually, SC Labs is one of our clients. So when we send products or when one of our clients sends a product to SC Labs or there's a problem with pesticide or there's a problem with heavy metals, what we do is a root cause analysis. And then we work directly with the testing laboratories to try to figure out where the problem was.

1:22:09SpeakerWas the problem with the producer? Was the problem with the laboratory testing? And SC Labs chemistry is super tight. Like, I mean, I'm very impressed with those guys have been for nearly a decade now. And yeah, so the methodology is pretty ironed out. And it doesn't matter if they're going high throughput, because you can only go so fast in a run for like a GC. Because you have to get, you know, baseline resolution and you have to run your check standards between every run and all that stuff.

1:22:40SpeakerAnd those guys are ISO certified. So, you know, they've got their chemistry buttoned up really tight. So I don't think there's really a difference. The difference between a lab like SC Labs and a lab like NAPRO is that We focus 100% on R&D. So we develop methods with like Perk and Elmer for their instrumentation. So then when a new laboratory opens up, they can say, hey, here's this method that we've already validated over here.

1:23:07SpeakerAnd you can analyze heavy metals or pesticides or whatever it is. You know, it's a symbiosis, right? You know, everybody helping everybody. And meanwhile, we're developing methods for growers, you know, whether it's breeding projects or just simply increasing yields and lowering the need for pesticides or, you You know, things like that. It's all optimization for us. And we have a really good template. So any farmers or cultivators who ever need assistance, you know, look us up for sure.

1:23:46SpeakerI mean, that's what we do.

1:23:49Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYou know, and really quickly, like what the base, how to preserve the terpenes in a grow. You know, it's valuable for people to hear again. And maybe a quick, just what is your best quick way for people on farms to preserve their terpenes for the market? Our saying is 60% humidity, 60% degrees for two weeks or what?

1:24:14SpeakerWe call it MPMH, minimally process, minimally handle, slow and cold. So you got it down. If you have a vacuum cooler, there's fun experiments there that when you harvest lots of lettuce, you have to use an actual gigantic vacuum cooler because Otherwise, you'll get a mold front as the head of lettuce begins to try to get cold. So you have to get a cold fast. There's lots of cool things you can do.

1:24:43SpeakerAnd I'm sure Marcus is fluent in Turpanese with all of the bubble hash he's done around the world.

1:24:52BubblemanWell, yeah, you know, I'm definitely fluent in Terpenese. Shout out to Young Terp. Shout out to Chile. For those of you that know, you know, for those of you that don't, you'll figure it out. I did want to also welcome Mojave to the room. How you doing, buddy? You want to tell everyone a little bit about yourself and what you're working on? Your name came up a few times while in the last hour and a half.

1:25:15BubblemanSo it's great that you showed up.

1:25:17MojaveYeah, man. Thanks for having me. Sorry I came in late. It's a had one of those family mornings break free then all of a sudden everyone went off to their respective zoom calls the kids are on their zoom and the wife's on the zoom so it's like my turn yeah um my name is mojave richmond um to to those who i don't know personally um good to see everyone on here it's been nice chatting with you all on clubhouse over the past couple weeks And yeah, I'm, you know, a lifetime cannabis enthusiast and activist and a bit of a breeder and cultivator and now a little bit of a all around wearer of many hats.

1:26:02MojaveAnd I work with, I work with Rob Clark with cannabis, with a bioergonomics group, also with Etienne Fontaine, who's a member, an important co-owner in the company. Which I would like to mention. And we're doing some other stuff. We're working out as well with Breeders Best, which is a IP, cannabis IP company founded by Dale Hunt with Ethan Russo as well. And yeah, just trying to stay involved and loving the conversation.

1:26:33MojaveYou know, I always feel like I, you know, I had such a great opportunity to sit on the panel with Ryan and Mark and Rob on Thursday. For Sager International, the breeding panel. And I just want to listen, you know, I get into this, the conversation gets so high and I just want to, you know, more than chiming in, I love, I love, you know, learning. And I thought it was really interesting what, what Ryan was talking about earlier about trying to bring these other terpene profiles into the Canadian market.

1:27:08MojaveI had this really interesting, just on that kind of topic, I've been having this interesting discussion with a couple distributors here down south, Southern California, who say the entire Southern California market doesn't want Jack, Trainwreck, Hayes, Sage, that their terpenylene dominant varieties just don't do well in Southern California for whatever reason. And they do continue to do well in Northern California. And, you know, there's been some people who've kind of made this hypothesis that it has to do with the nature of the Southern California consumer, which might have some validity to it.

1:27:45MojaveYou know, there's definitely is a different kind of ethos going on down in Southern California. But more than anything, I think it's just about exposure, you know, specifically because these terpenylene dominant varieties are, they grow well, they grow really great under the sun. Make big, beautiful trees. And there's a lot of that going on in Northern California, but very little in Southern California.

1:28:07Ryan Dank AfSo you see. What about the purples? Can I ask you about the purples? Like, I mean, you know, Grant and that Blue Dream is in that same family. And, you know, a lot of these other ones that are high in myrcene, how do they sell down in Southern SoCal? Like, I'm wondering, is it? Is it actually that they don't like the terpenylene or is it that they're only so focused on the beta-caryophyllene like, oh gee, sour diesel class?

1:28:32MojaveWell, I think it has to do with exposure. Like, for instance, I mean, the terpenylene thing, I think it's just because there's not enough terpenylene dominant varieties on the market because they just traditionally haven't been grown here. But it's an interesting point about the purples. I mean, In the late 90s, early 2000s, Northern California, Purple Kush, Purple Urkel, GDP, they were everywhere. And in Southern California, they weren't.

1:29:00MojaveAnd they slowly started to trickle in in the Prop 215 medical market. But what I found was back in the day, there wasn't this open sharing of genetics like there is today. So it really Mark Benthien, M.D. : showed up there first it bloomed created a market had the following and then slowly it trickled down to Los Angeles. Mark Benthien, M.D. : And then eventually those purple varieties got down here and people started working with them and crossing them and then they have now you know I know cultivators who won't grow anything unless it's purple.

1:29:36MojaveThat's this is all this is all will grow. So anyway, it's yeah, it's just really interesting how you see these different markets. And there's like a legacy of what varieties were first introduced into that market that still kind of ripples as the market shifts. And now we have full access to cultivars through the nursery system. We can get any cultivar that's available up and down the state.

1:30:03SpeakerSo yeah, I have a quick question. When you say purple and terpenylene, you know, historically outside of the the Napro ecosystem, we don't see cultivars that test much higher than right at 20, low 20s, maybe 20% THC. Most of the purples are dip under 20%. And I just wonder if it's the buying habit of the SoCal consumer shooting for that. Mark Benthien, M.D. : I think that there's something to be said for that.

1:30:33SpeakerI think the purple phenomenon has a lot more to do with marketing.

1:30:50MojaveYou know, and, and certain very successful marketing campaigns behind bigger groups that have been able to really sell, you know, I mean, it's just crazy. You know, just the other day there was, you know, seed junkies did a drop at blah, blah. And when in, in the Valley and people were lined up overnight, camping out, waiting. Mark Benthien, CFO Alphabet and Google.com. Mark Benthien, CFO Alphabet.

1:31:35MojaveSo, and that's the challenge, you know, the purple is just like, like I mentioned on the, in our, our breeding panel, purple is a beautiful color that people love, you know, and, and, and attaching that your predisposition to aromas, colors, flavor, flavors kind of leads you into what varieties you first try as soon as they become available. And it can kind of grab hold of your preferences in a powerful way.

1:32:00MojaveLike me, for instance, I don't really like purple varieties. But I love the flavor. I love grape. I love purple flavors. So there's like this battle where as I'm inhaling and I'm enjoying the smoke, I'm like, wow, that brings back all these memories of all these different These different, you know, you remember when you were a kid, purple was a flavor back in the seventies, you know, you got all your grape.

1:32:25MojaveIt was grape, right? Yeah, no, but it often was like purple and red and green. Those are your flavors. So it brings back all those memories.

1:32:33Dr Mark ScialdoneYou said that because they're not necessarily the same. And I, that's exactly the question I had. So purple and grape aren't necessarily the same in cannabis.

1:32:43MojaveNo, not at all. Not at all. Not to me, at least, you know, a lot of the grape, the grapey flavors that I get come from more like that, that tart grape skin, you know.

1:32:51SpeakerA lot of, a lot of the stuff with the new purples that you're seeing, like Sea Junkie Genetics and stuff, a lot of the allure there is that through some of the breeding tricks, they've able to kind of turn some of those purples by eye, more of like a gassy, limonene dominant, All right, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

1:33:33SpeakerIt's starting to come up here, but mostly now with those purple crosses with more of the limonene effect, a little more of that gas to it. We're definitely seeing a lot of that in the limonene category in the cup this year. I want to say, at least by I think the R records with SC Labs, I think myrcene is the most heavily dominant terpene in cannabis tested throughout the state here.

1:33:57SpeakerAnd so when we're starting to see these different terpene profiles with the monoterpenes, those different combinations, that's where I'm starting to see these trends happening, at least by going terpene first at the store. It's kind of what I'm seeing with that here. And you just reminded me of a question that Mark asked like an hour ago about seasonal change in terpene profiles. And if you're, if it, you know, as you all know, if you're growing in a greenhouse, you're obviously going to have red shift and blue shift, different types of the year, times of the year.

1:34:32SpeakerAnd that's why a lot of people really like those depths because they're getting that really intense light for 12 hours and then getting blacked out. And Not to spend a lot of time here because you need data for me to show this, but I did a CanMed talk a long time ago that is online. And I showed terpene variation across multiple harvests in a single genotype. And, you know, basically what happens if the plant is suffering at all, whether it's sunlight, stress, myrcene starts to take over.

1:35:06SpeakerIt almost seems like it's a stress default terpene, so. It's funny you were talking about the terpene preservation too. I was actually talking to Alec about this the other day that we know there's some farmers up here that actually turn to harvesting at night. Obviously, we know some of those terpenes, the monotropenes, they boil down to that lowest temperature. So you're automatically losing these terpenes as they're going off.

1:35:31SpeakerSo I'm curious to know kind of You know, if anyone on the panel has heard of other people utilizing that trick or technique as far as turf preservation is concerned. There's a patent for harvesting on a full moon on a certain day of the month, isn't there, Ryan?

1:35:49Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineYou can't patent herbalism. Come on, that's unfair. Even if Scott Van Sam does it, it's not fair and it's not cool. I'm not making this up. It's just herbalism.

1:36:00SpeakerI'm not making this up.

1:36:01Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineOh, I'm sure you're not.

1:36:03Collin PalmerSo on the East Coast, you brought something up that's interesting that I paid attention to and I've been doing some studies on is our lights a lot bluer, especially when we're growing in greenhouses out here. So we are getting very different expressions from different varietals. And then to someone else's point, when we're harvesting, especially during the fall, it's just naturally cooler. We're getting different CO2 levels where, you know, different things are happening because of the environment and it's changing The expressions on all of these different varieties that I see versus a much more 4,200 spectrum or something like that.

1:36:44Collin PalmerSo we're getting a different expression from the terpenes and also the cannabinoid expression. And then all the way through harvest, we're able to keep things really cool a certain time of year. If we do light depth, usually June's a little bit different for us out here where it's dry, but it's still It gets hot, so it's just different, but absolutely over the years, the fall has been a key place, especially for doing those chems and OGs and sours.

1:37:12Collin PalmerThat's really where, and I think why our sours, when we did them well during the fall, they just, they really were a great expression of those particular varietals.

1:37:24SpeakerIt just goes to show how important environment is, right? Yeah, I was going to say the same thing because we're also talking about microbiology because in the morning there's a tremendous amount of microbiology in the air in the early morning. And this is why ancient practices of when you're trying to collect sort of those volatile oils of any types of herbs and ancient herbology tells you, you know, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:38:06SpeakerBut it's, you know, when we're talking about curing, we're talking about microbiology and it is so important. I loved, you know, that cool, long, dry cure is so helpful for the stabilization of the microbiology during that time. And I think that there's a really big role Thank you for joining us.

1:38:42SpeakerI couldn't agree more. It's like, and it's also, you tie the chemistry in, right? Like, at cooler temperatures, most of those aromatic plants have trichomes. Trichomes are made out of waxes and fatty acids, which, when they're colder, are stronger and hold the aromatics in better. And then when the sun's out, you have the heat hitting the molecules, causing them to turn into a gas, and then it's gone.

1:39:05SpeakerAnd I found this patent, by the way. It's, if you want the patent number, The actual title is about moon phases. It's very interesting. Would you guys like to look it up or do you care?

1:39:18BubblemanYeah, yeah. Put it into the chat and I'll also put it into the comment section. I think getting into the microbiology of the soil leads perfectly into an introduction with Peter. And a bunch of us have been going deep down the rabbit hole on Clubhouse the last couple of days. into all of these things that we're talking about right now. And this is a perfect time to bring in the microbiology.

1:39:46BubblemanSo welcome, Peter. How are you, my friend?

1:39:48PeterCool, Marcus. Thanks so much for having me. It's a Great to be in this room with all of you minds. You guys just sitting here listening, man. The minds in here are beautiful. And I'm so just like humbled to be in the same room as you guys and your industry knowledge. It's amazing. I'm like a listener, you know, in the audience, just blown away by you guys.

1:40:13PeterBut yeah, Jeremy and Mojave and I have been having some really interesting conversations on Clubhouse lately. And one of the things that I thought was cool that we can bring up was the concept of saprophytes, which saprophytes are a type of organizm which are so important for terpene production and cannabinoid production. They're like, you know, the frontline workers of the All of the work that needs to be done in the rhizosphere to actually increase what's called trace nutrient absorption, right?

1:40:51PeterSo what we have found, and I'll give you guys just a little bit of background, is in 2019, our group consulted for 162 large-scale hemp farmers. And what we found was that the trace nutrient absorption, your coppers, your zincs, your borons, We're like the physics or the foundation of the necessary absorption in that rhizosphere to build the different types of terpenes within the profile. So it was seen by us that the growers that had a biologically active system with a good amount of saprophytic organizms, and I can go into what those are a little bit more, but those farmers were getting like 25 types of terpenes in their profile.

1:41:42PeterAnd then the growers that had maybe five types of good saprophytic organizms I'm sorry, that had low amounts of saprophytic organizms. We're getting maybe five or six types of terpenes and they were all really high. So you'd have like four or five spikes in the profile, but then the biologically active soil would have like 25 different types of terpenes, but they were more balanced. So you would have like 15 types that were all over like 0.1 versus, you know,

1:42:15PeterThank you so much for joining us today.

1:42:40PeterSo a saprophyte is a living organizm, right? And to understand powdery and downy mildew, what you kind of want to understand is maybe where it comes from. So in the soil, in all organic material, there's this little tiny ball. It's called an oospore. And it's like a little bowling ball. It's super small. It's microscopic. So you got to take your mind and think really tiny right now.

1:43:03PeterSo this little oospore is like a bowling ball particle inside the soil. And inside of it lives this organizm called Paranospora, which is another, which is the scientific name for downy mildew. So no amount of chemicals, like if you hit it with methyl bromide or a systemic fungicide or whatever, is going to destroy this little oospore. So it's very hard to destroy. And once you get the correct physics and the correct temperature and the correct moisture levels, that little oospore in the soil, it cracks.

1:43:45PeterAnd out comes this perinospora, this downy mildew. And it begins to just kind of colonize the carbon in the soil, right? So what's pretty cool is if you have an abundance of these types of bacteria and fungi called saprophytic organizms, what they'll do is they can actually grow on all the carbon. And then when that disease, that soil-borne pathogen All of these guys that are on all the rest of the carbon that are basically like having a party on there and they're doing a really special form of work.

1:44:25PeterSo what happens is the bad, you know, the path, and he's not a bad guy, but he's a pathogen who just wants to eat to survive, right? And take, and so what this little guy does is he tries to get into the party on the carbon and there's no room for him to jump in there. So biologically speaking, he can't gain traction. He can't gain competency. Now, normally what Paranosperm would do is it would actually colonize the carbon and then it would actually colonize the root.

1:44:55PeterAnd there's another cool little thing in the soil. It's a little worm. And sometimes those little worms called nematodes can actually make holes in the roots. So now what happens is the perinospora that came out of that little bowling ball will actually go into the plant's vascular system. It'll cruise in through that hole and it'll get into the glucose and the sugar and it just has a field day.

1:45:18PeterIt's like, oh man, there's all this food and delicious stuff. So now it's traveling through All of these things that we're going to be talking about today, we're going to be talking about a lot of the things that we're going to be talking about today, we're going to be talking about a lot of the things that we're going to be talking about today, we're going to be talking about a lot

1:45:53PeterAll right, so this is how this guy gains traction. And so what we do

1:46:14PeterThank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in about a minute.

1:46:49PeterSo we've got to go back to the saprophytes. So this is what's so cool about certain saprophytic organizms. So the definition of a saprophyte is an organizm that Thank you for joining us today.

1:47:25PeterWe don't have enough compost to compost 100 million acres. We just don't have the resources, the material, but we do have enough beneficial bacteria. And we do have enough saprophytes in the form of fungi, which are also mushrooms, right? Which is a big trending thing right now. People are really connecting with mushrooms and starting to explore that, which is fantastic.

1:47:52PeterWe have a world of life that is the defining factor in quantifying quality and producing quality, I should say. So one of the cool things about saprophytes, and then I'll shut up, but the cool thing about saprophytes is they have these two main objectives, right? So one of the first things that they do when they first get into the soil, which is awesome, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:48:41PeterWe're going to talk a little bit about what we call the root exudates. What is a root exudate? Well, a root exudate is a plant that has to live in the symbiotic relationship with the root exudates that the plant is producing in the form of sugars and carbohydrates.

1:49:01PeterYou know, and so do my kids. They love the donuts sometimes and I give it to them, you know, try to buy organic.

1:49:06Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineThat's the point of the rhizophagy cycle. That's the point of the rhizophagy cycle where the endophytic fungi and bacteria enter into the roots and enter into the plants. So it's not just saprophytic fungi. That's right. It's a whole entire.

1:49:22PeterTotally. All of those nod factors, right? I'm trying to just give it an overview for the audience to give it kind of like, there's so much diversity, right? So much diversity.

1:49:34SpeakerYeah, and I think that we can bring it back really easily to understanding the microbiome of the plant is really no different than the human microbiome. So what we're feeding the soil is the same as what we're feeding our human digestive system. So whenever we're out of balance with say like an Oomyces or some other type of a yeast leaf feeding mildew, we have a yeast infection.

1:50:01SpeakerThe plant has a yeast infection. It's absolutely no different than if our own microbiome is totally out of balance with a tremendous amount of yeast or different types of aggressive microorganisms that will eat up our beneficials. So having a really well-rounded diet Thank you for joining us today.

1:50:42SpeakerAnd we're also drawing a myriad of different types of fungi, which is a huge key.

1:50:50Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineDecomposing raw materials. That's why we're raw materials farmers, because you can't stop goodness from coming in.

1:50:57SpeakerYeah. And I think that once you have this sort of balanced soil, then you have that, that So it's a beautiful, clean, balanced, endophytic system, the same as the microbiome. So it's interesting.

1:51:15Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd a high fungal soil is what you're saying. We're agreeing with you. Yeah.

1:51:19SpeakerAnd as you're talking, Peter, it's awesome because I'm always drawing, which I always do as my background in human health. I'm always drawing the two to human health and soil and plant and human health and how they're so incredibly related.

1:51:35PeterSo spot on. What you said is so spot on. I love everything you're putting out. So yeah, you guys are amazing in what you're doing. I'm so appreciative of your permaculture, of the way that you certify people. Like, it's beautiful. I'm humbled to be on the same stage as you guys. You guys are that amazing to me. Like, beautiful what you're doing. True.

1:51:56SpeakerI feel the same here. I love what you're putting down. It's so incredibly important for people to be able to get this information.

1:52:02Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineEveryone on this panel is amazing.

1:52:04SpeakerThis panel today has been awesome, like totally mind-blowing. Thank you guys so much. Every single person on here, I've smoked so many bong hits sitting here, just blown away. This has really re-sparked something in me. Thank you so much.

1:52:18Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineBong rip, mother lovers.

1:52:20SpeakerPeter, if I may, there's also one thing that I think is a really important implication of what you're bringing up and what Josh and Kelly were just emphasizing. Yes, Jeremy, yes. Right now, we have this massive industry scaling with consultants around the world telling people with money that the only reliable production model is a mineral salt program under HID lights with this one size fits all crap.

1:52:45SpeakerOne of the exciting things that I have fought for for a long time, and I'm really proud of in Oregon, is that reality is, I think that the organic crop production model, finally, we can point to like the Rodale crop trials, has been more successful in out yielding, out consistency, or more consistently yielding, and Of course, from all the qualitative attributes performing as a production model on the whole and absolutely convinced it's because of belonging to biology in an intentional way, participating with biology, encouraging biology.

1:53:18SpeakerI can't pretend to understand all of the biological elements. And in fact, I think Soil Doctor does some great talks about that, where we look at the various kind of biological assays and the complexity of being able to really understand those dynamics and it gets And I'm so excited about

1:53:42SpeakerWhether it's rhizophagy or this kind of overall sort of shield against like a bio shield, all pathogen pressure. I am convinced one of the reasons that proof has only 6,500 square foot of canopy and many of the other tier two folks are like 10,000. And we're producing in most cases, two to three times the output. It is simply about working with organic cultures. And the organic cultures are absolutely, in addition to all those qualitative attributes you mentioned so eloquently here, in my data, I always show more chemo diversity in a profile.

1:54:16SpeakerAnd whereas when I contrast that to the mineral salt products, it's more chemo intensity. But it's a far less desirable product. I would never choose that product if I have the options from a sensory perspective, from a physiological perspective, from a spiritual perspective. But yet we continue to see these scaled gardens moving forward without any of this awareness. So it's one of my missions to be able to quantify and characterize the sort of production performance To simply be able to help people who are not as amazing as all of the humans on this panel.

1:54:49SpeakerWho are new and fearful of losing capital and listening to the kind of prevailing ethos of all the existing consultants. That actually, in fact, obviously the only way forward is to really create these hyper biological systems and to tend that with care. Anyways, I so love every, it's been such a joy to communicate with you over the last days, by the way. And I think we could really easily just ask the plant.

1:55:15SpeakerLike if we bring the plant into this conversation, so often exactly what you were just saying, Jeremy, is that we're talking about mergers and wagers and all of these different signed documents and SOPs and IPs and everything that's got a letter. And sometimes it's just so simple to pull up a chair for the plant and ask her how she would like to be grown. Ask her, you know, how is it that she would like to have medicine prevail inside of humans on the planet and the relationship that she would like to have with humans?

1:55:52SpeakerAnd of course, she's going to say that she would love to grow outside under polyculture in deep soil. What plant wouldn't want to say that? And I think that now that we get to actually match that scientific testing with what the plant's ultimate You know, once would want to be in growing out and also speeding and onto the next varietals and onto the next generations. It's really going to be amazing to match that science with what we perceive a plant and what we perceive that she would really like to be involved in.

1:56:29Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd even to see that dynamic happen indoors as well.

1:56:32SpeakerYes.

1:56:32PeterYeah, that's the trick. Well, that's the trick. That's everything. And that's what you were speaking to, Jeremy, is how do we assimilate the two? So many of the top producers that I've been talking to lately that are producing cannabis in volume, indoor, there's this huge separation between how can we implement organics? How can we implement a biologically active system in a sterile environment? So there's a whole business dynamic around this, which is, listen, my investors don't give a shit what the quality is.

1:57:08PeterRight now we're being purchased on output. And so, dude, if I bring some organics in here, I'm going to fuck up my whole grow. And I can't use it. My investors will cut my funding off. And Joe's saying yes on this. So you know exactly what I'm talking about. So most of my growers, most of my customers that are cultivating conventionally, this is the biggest separation of state right now between redefining quality,

1:57:45PeterThank you so much for joining us.

1:58:11PeterThat we're all talking about here so eloquently. And I'll keep it very simple. So just digressing back to going back into the soil and feeling into what's happening in there, these saprophytes. So just think of them as these tiny little microscopic organizms, right? And they're growing and they're living and they're feeding on these roots. Now, these saprophytes can be Thank you for joining us today.

1:58:52PeterThere are going to be some in there, but a lot of the compost teas that you'll find will have microbes from crop residue or animal intestines, not necessarily the types of strains that are going to grow on the root comprehensively and proliferate like crazy. And that's what we need in these sterile environments. Because what happens in the sterile environments is people kill the microbes, then they re-inoculate them, they kill them, they re-inoculate them, they kill them, they re-inoculate, all in the quest for higher terpene levels.

1:59:24PeterSo just to kind of break down how this works, it's very simple. So as these rhizobacteria are living on the root in a hydroponic setting, right, what they're doing is they're eating All of these are the sugars and carbohydrates that come out of the root. All plants create it. As they eat these sugars and carbohydrates, they have to go to the bathroom. So they have to create a waste product, right?

1:59:54PeterScientifically, a microbe waste product Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to get started in about a minute.

2:00:28PeterIn the roots, what we want is a secondary metabolite that can be in an acid base, because what that's going to do is it's going to micronize and polarize your salt-based nutrients. So as you're cultivating, if you're actually able to implement You know, these microorganisms, they're going to break down your calcium particle into a size that the plant can actually absorb. And like I said, if you can absorb iron and copper and zinc, those are the physics, the building blocks that are actually going to go into the terpene production to create this very high level, you know, connoisseur smell and variance.

2:01:10PeterIt's where you've got all these different notes. And it seems like that's where the industry is trending, right? It's going not so much for the THC, but it's going towards the craft cultivators, like a good IPA and supporting that in our expansion into the future.

2:01:32SpeakerFor sure. And I'd like to just add that, you know, when we look at all the different growing techniques, because we have hydroponics indoors, LEDs, all that stuff. And it's like, you know, growing on a spaceship, it's cool that we can do that. Right. But Like Kelly said, the plants perform by far the best when they're actually in the soil that is connected to the earth, not in a pot and under the sun.

2:02:02SpeakerAnd they actually perform better outdoors than in greenhouse, typically, if you could keep out the other environmental factors. Like if you could just remove the plastic or poly and have the plant in the sun, In the soil, getting the air from her.

2:02:20PeterIt's great. But for the market in California, that's not the case. The indoor is way better and it's way tighter. The buds are tighter. You know, I'm based.

2:02:30SpeakerI'm sorry. I'm based in California. And I would have to humbly disagree. Now, if you're talking about... I would suck at you, Dr. Lewis. I'm in California and that's not my experience either.

2:02:41PeterHere's the thing. There's a big difference, I think. So there's indoor and outdoor, right? And everybody who's a cultivator understands this. You can't distinguish outdoor from indoor. Me personally... Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:03:19PeterSo, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's

2:03:41SpeakerSo, you know, you mentioned your work with downy mildew. I work with Dr. Jim Simon out of Rutgers and help them breed a downy mildew resistant basil because in the early 2000s, downy mildew practically wiped out the basil industry in South America and North America. And one of the things that we learn there is that outdoor plants grown Have stronger cuticles, taste more like leafy green, but if you grow them in the greenhouse, they're softer, they're more like, more edible in general, more palatable.

2:04:21SpeakerAnd what I was trying to say about cannabis, I didn't say if it were outdoor. I said if you could remove the plastic off of a greenhouse and remove all of the environmental inputs, like the wind, the dust, the rain, that product is far better than a product grown under lights.

2:04:41PeterIt is, 100%. And it's not comparable.

2:04:46SpeakerCorrect. And it's indistinguishable. I mean, I'm going to tell you right now, I know growers that have been growing in greenhouses for decades, and their products were always indistinguishable from indoors. And they got sold as indoors. So when you look at quality, it's about the chemistry and the bag appeal. It doesn't really matter where it's cultivated, but if you want the best, best, best product, It's soil, sun, hands down from seed, period.

2:05:18PeterFlow cure. Exactly. I couldn't agree more. Joe really wanted to.

2:05:23SpeakerYeah, I wanted to jump in. Yeah, because obviously you're not going to get a better expression of the plant than full seed, full sun in the soil. I think what, Peter, what you were talking about is more like what's commercially viable in our state, right? And that's just the case. Like I have right now, I have 266 cultivars sitting right next to me right here. There's personal use entry, mixed light entry, full sun grant, full sun grant entry, and there's indoor.

2:05:49SpeakerThese are from some of the best growers in the whole world in the triangle. The outdoor is by far distinguishable from the indoor. You can tell it apart. Anyone who looks as many cultivars as we do can easily distinguish what's from outdoor and indoor. It's really just about what you're getting from the full cannabinoid spectrum from that full sun. And for us, obviously, you know, looking at all these entries, they're going to have a best in show from what goes up.

2:06:16SpeakerIt's going to be a sun-grown plant that wins. It's not always about the high THC, but with, you know, craft cannabis, by definition, not really being able to scale with the cost of what it costs to produce a plant and to have the batch sizes make sense for the farmers to have some of these higher end strains They need to have a large bulk flower grown. So you lose a lot of that craft scale.

2:06:46SpeakerThe farmers that I work with who are working more mixed light, they have the light depths or they have some of the smaller outdoor farms. They're getting much better. They just have more attention to the plant. Brandon Krenzler, Brandeis Farms, Brandeis Farms, Brandeis Farms, Brandeis Farms,

2:07:17SpeakerSo, you know, I'm battling it all the time. And for the other people that might be in the retailer space, it's either high-end or low-end. There's no middle anymore. You know, and most people don't understand that some of the stuff that's on my shelf that might be priced, you know, at a lower price brings just as much medicinal value or better value than some of those higher-end indoor strands, the cultivars.

2:07:46SpeakerI think there's a lot more involved with it than just, you know, how it's grown.

2:07:49PeterYeah, totally. And getting back to, you know, getting back to the essence, you know, it all comes down to costs, really, and affordability and the protection, right? The integrated pest management. So that's one of the biggest things that I think is important to recognize is that If we can really take our time and do and follow some of the things that like Dragonfly Earth Medicine is doing and really implement, try and implement a lot of those practices, especially the higher amounts of biology into any operation.

2:08:25PeterWhether it be a, you know, your closet or a large scale operation, really working to find the right microorganisms. And in my opinion, what are called saprophytes is really the beginning Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:09:08PeterAll of those things, you know, both of those things,

2:09:25PeterThank you so much for joining us.

2:09:41PeterWe have quantified that you will have three to 10 times in that square centimeter of, of, of trichome heads than the non-treated. Total oil production, total CBD and THC synthase enzyme production has been, um, um, Bioenzymatically stimulated. So the plant's biosynthetic pathways have actually been stimulated by these microorganisms to create more oil and a more diverse flavor compounds within that oil.

2:10:17Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, isn't fundamentally one of their main roles is to fix nitrogen because the plant doesn't fix nitrogen itself. And these things are the things that make soluble nitrogen. So the plant can make proteins and peptides, which all need to be made. That's the machinery that makes.

2:10:36PeterYeah. Here's a really crazy thing about the industry, Mark, is that right now what most microbial companies are doing is they're focused on what a microbe can do on its own. So they're like, okay, this microbe solubilizes phosphorus, or this makes nitrogen available, or this does this, right? But what's really important, just like in strains in cannabis, and just like human beings, it's not necessarily what one microbe does, but what they produce in combination that make them truly effective.

2:11:08PeterSo what we've been doing is studying microbial combinations and the different secondary metabolites they produce in combination for 20 years. And so when you have a bunch of givers is what I like to call them because there's like these different kinds of organizms in the soil. There's there's the microorganisms that live on the root that they just give like a lot of cannabis providers and growers just like us.

2:11:34PeterRight. These types of microbes are going to give, give, give, give, give to the plant to keep it alive because they innately understand that their survival And the survival of future generations, their children is based on how much they can give to the plant. So it's almost like they create this protective biome around the plant to care for their children and to care for their planet, to care for future generations, right?

2:12:01PeterSo now there's the other types of microorganisms and they're not bad. They're just a part of the natural system. And what they believe innately is that if they don't eat, they're going to die. So they will go and they will eat your fucking plant that you're trying to grow, that you're trying to take care of. So there's there's this there's this system. And what I'm talking about is if you can get the good guys, the guys that are giving to your plant, that are that are breaking down nutrients, that are giving it all of this love and energy and light and utilizing that.

2:12:35PeterThen when the bad guys come to the party and they want to smoke a bowl with you, you're like, dude, there's no room for you guys. Get the fuck out of here. That's kind of how it is.

2:12:44Jeremy PlumPeter, you mentioned R&D that showed three to ten times as much trichome heads per centimeter or whatever. Is that published?

2:12:57PeterI'd love to post it in this room. And I'd be happy to share it publicly. Sure. Let me bring it up right now.

2:13:04BubblemanI can facilitate getting it to you as well from Peterson.

2:13:10SpeakerWe all like to see it actually. We've been running studies like this, including time course analysis on metabolite accumulation for well over a decade in cannabis specifically. And as mentioned, we work with basil and other culinary herbs, but can't wait to see that.

2:13:28PeterYeah, there it is. So if you wanted to zoom in on it, Marcus, and just... Well, I'll be honest.

2:13:38BubblemanI can't zoom in on it anymore because I'm now on my phone driving up to Whistler to catch some powder. I couldn't give up hash church or powder today, so I can't do that.

2:13:50SpeakerRight on, man.

2:13:52Jeremy PlumPeter, I was wondering, Peter, there's been some connection, oh, sorry, please. No, a quick one, which is, did the THC and or cannabinoid levels of those varieties increase three to 10 times?

2:14:10PeterYes, the total oil production went up accordingly to the plant's genetic predispositions.

2:14:18BubblemanThis was done on hemp, right?

2:14:20PeterYeah, on 162 hemp farms. And we had university professors overview it and study it. And it showed the impact of what a highly biologically active system can do in cannabis cultivation for quality. So we're talking about yields as far as the organic versus The other guys, we hit 5,000 pounds per the acre. The conventional fields were hitting 3,000 pounds approximately. So we had that as a huge advantage.

2:14:51PeterWe produced approximately 30% more total oil production than the non-organic. The other thing is that we also, Sam, to answer your question, saw some really unique things in the cannabinoid expression. So one of the things that we saw was through the biological mitigation of stress induction on the plant in the soil, we saw the delta, and it's interesting, in the hemp plant, we saw delta nine actually levels decrease.

2:15:30PeterAnd the CBD levels increased. So the cannabinoids increased the CBD. But then in medical marijuana, we saw the Delta-9 go through the roof. So it was just interesting how the biology just allows the plant to just achieve its full genetic expressions, which was interesting. So the Delta-9 mitigation in hemp was interesting because what we... Thank you for joining us.

2:16:19PeterThank you so much for joining us.

2:16:29PeterThank you so much for joining us today.

2:16:53PeterAll of these things that we're going to be talking about today, we're going to be talking about some of the things that we're going to be talking about today.

2:17:13PeterSo they usually went hot. So it was based on the genetics. So the THC would actually go up based on the, again, the plant's genetic expression. So usually they would be up as if the cannabinoids went up.

2:17:30Dr Mark ScialdoneThe THC went up. So you didn't see any differential change in the relative amounts?

2:17:37PeterThe only difference we saw was that the Delta 9 was lower in the biologically active treated, but the THCA was the same.

2:17:45SpeakerI want to throw in a thought to kind of revisit what Kelly was talking about earlier around the needs of the plant. One of the things I've come to realize and believe is that the genetics of the plant suggests what it's going to produce. But the epigenetics, the environment it's in and how it's treated and how it grows is going to have a lot to do with how much of that potential it expresses.

2:18:10SpeakerAnd what I'm realizing or feeling somehow is that the cannabis plant itself, because of Is producing this chemistry for its needs to address its situation, its place in the garden or in the industrial facility that it's in or whatever. But the cannabis chemistry is at least partially shaped by the needs of the plant. Like I think certain terpenes might express where a plant is being attacked by pests.

2:18:45SpeakerAnd I, I'm just, there's some beautiful minds in this conversation. I'd really love to hear some thoughts on that point of view of how does the, how is that, is that real? Is it the plant's needs that are actually causing the expression of this chemistry? Thank you. Well, I know that in the trials that we, so NAPRO oversees a lot of different cultivations, right? And similar to Peter's study, we look at same genotypes across multiple environments within the same identical environment.

2:19:19SpeakerI mean, Our data set is definitely the largest in the world for replicates of a single genotype and or seed hybrids over the course of the past 10 years. And the variations and experiments where we've altered one thing at a time, not Not like having an open field trial where you have all these different environments, micro environments, micro micro environments. But instead, if we're using the identical soil across three rooms, the rooms are identical height, width, length, And in one room, we use conventional salt and all the other inputs, all the other pest management, everything is the same.

2:20:02SpeakerThe other room, we use conventional salt plus a biostimulant or another amendment. And generally, the trend is when you use the salts, you have higher Thank you for joining us today. We're going to talk a little bit about the different types of products that we use. And we're going to talk a little bit about the different types of products that we use. And we're going to talk a little bit about the different types of

2:20:42SpeakerThank you for joining us today.

2:21:01SpeakerCannabis aphids, certain terpene profiles that attract the broad mite. So it's very interesting because it's almost like those are singing out to the bugs saying, hey, come on over here. And they go over there and it's really, really neat.

2:21:18Dr Mark ScialdoneThey're attracting pollinators, right? I mean, isn't that the reason why the terpene profiles are expressed in the plant to begin with? It's in an evolutionary sense is to attract

2:21:30Jeremy PlumAll right, let's move on to the next one.

2:21:35SpeakerWe're going to go to the next one. We're going to go to the next one. We're going to go to the next one.

2:21:42Jeremy PlumWe're going to go to the next one.

2:21:56Dr Mark ScialdoneBrad Weber, Jr.: Plant two on cat men.

2:21:58SpeakerSo, yes, yes, yes, the tiger deterrent.

2:22:02Dr Mark ScialdoneBrad Weber, Jr.: For the world for the insect repellent.

2:22:04SpeakerSorry, but you don't want it to attract the tiger.

2:22:07Dr Mark ScialdoneBrad Weber, Jr.: As it turns out, that's a an effect that's conserved throughout the feline kingdom. So, so yeah, they they have the same, I guess, reaction to these

2:22:20SpeakerAnd you definitely don't want a mosquito repellent that attracts the cat to come play with you, right?

2:22:28Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, but again, help us postulate. We've talked about this on Hash Church before, you know, why would, why would a plant like cat, catnip is just really variety that is again, just something that just intrigues me just in terms of plant evolutionary biology is it attracts cats. Steve Sorenson, MD, And it actually, it's an insect repellent, but it attracts, I think, a certain lacewing. So I think there's a certain insect that it actually attracts, but it repels most.

2:23:01Dr Mark ScialdoneBut why would evolutionary biology end up having such peculiar properties for one plant?

2:23:10Jeremy PlumWell, lacewing is beneficial. It goes after aphids and all kinds of other pests.

2:23:16Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, right. So it attracts actually a good insect, but I don't get the cat connection. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

2:23:25SpeakerI don't have any notions there, but there's an interesting thing that I've observed in canopies. We've talked about sort of chemistry calling in sort of other allies or adversaries. But I think about one of the most interesting things was when I started getting a lot of terpenylene dominant varieties into mixed cultivar rooms, suddenly varieties that had no terpenylene expression began to have low level terpenylene presence and even uptick over time.

2:23:53SpeakerI'm fascinated about VOC signaling above ground as well as root exudates and the fact that you can co-mingle varieties and clearly have an impact. I even wonder then could you take, and I've never done any of this work, but a certain distilled terpene, say limonene, and have that same sort of impact without even the plant present. But that conversation that's happening in VOCs is something we're starting to measure.

2:24:18SpeakerThere's these high density sensor networks There are these little Bluetooth enabled devices that pick up the VPD and CO2 and PPFD, but now they're adding VOCs to them. And every three feet in the canopy at two to three layers, you're able to really get this comprehensive view. It'll be very, very interesting to then correlate Aaron Ward- Some of the aromatic expression in the chemo or in the chemo types within what we observe in the high density sensor network just trying to Aaron Ward- observe and listen to in a way that we can analytically quantify that dialogue.

2:24:51SpeakerAaron Ward- There's another thread that I think is so important that Josh asked earlier, and that has been kind of floating around a little bit. I just think for Folks who might tune in and who are looking to sort of some information about how do you, once you've harvested all of these incredible aromatic compounds, get that to the patient, to the consumer in a meaningful way. What I see universally in the Oregon and California market, and I do mean a vast majority of all of the flower that I'm seeing, is what the hops growers would call spoiled flower.

2:25:24SpeakerIn hops, when I interact with the team at Yakima Chief Hops a lot, They define a spoiled hops of variety as something that has lost more than 50% of the aromatic contribution that was analyzed at the beginning. And then they have really incredible time trials where they pack at zero degrees and mylar with noble gases and are able to extend the longevity of the profile that was there at the beginning.

2:25:51SpeakerIt's fascinating contrasting preserving the original expression as opposed to the distinct I think there's a bit of a tension between those two different goals. But in any case, I think a vast majority of all of the flour that is being served at retail dispensaries is currently what we should define as spoiled. And there are a variety of practical strategies that I think can be put into place to really preserve freshness and that we have a freshness crisis as especially scaled options came.

2:26:27SpeakerPeople stopped putting love into that post-process. And a few of the observations I've had is essentially if we're packing at about 10% moisture and we are able to alleviate that 0.8% water activity mark pretty rapidly in drying, as Dr. Alison Justice, actually, if anybody's not aware of Alison's work, she's one of the only people I've heard of who's really done some strong analytics looking at post-process. And she's lecturing about this in a few different podcasts.

2:26:57SpeakerShe's easy to find. But the basic gist is that if you can hit 0.8% water activity, botrytis cannot form. You're not going to have fungal pathogens. So typically she's advocating more for that aggressive dry for the first 48 hours to just simply be able to attain that. Of course, that 0.8% doesn't remain static over time. It does sort of obviously the exterior of the flower is going to lose moisture first and things will equilibrate as they're in a sort of drying room together over time or they're packed together.

2:27:28SpeakerSo there's ongoing monitoring that's needed. But if you can hit that and then really slow and low kind of carry it as far as possible without being concerned about the fungal issues, which in Oregon, I mean, easily the greatest loss of crop value is related to botrytis. And everything we can do to prevent that loss is just a tremendous means of staying afloat. And it's very, very important.

2:27:52SpeakerSo I think that is one of the most important pieces. But then in terms of packing, I do think it's fascinating. When I was in a wholesale buying trip for this company that had hired me to get wholesale flour for them, which essentially I was able to secure a lot of exclusively regeneratively grown produce from people like Tina at Moonmade and all kinds of our peers. Aaron Ward- And Northern California last year and what I saw almost universally was that it was all packed in Turkey bags and that we still are using porous membranes to hold Aaron Ward- In this incredible sensuous aroma and of course are losing a lot of that aroma as a result.

2:28:30SpeakerBut then there's this issue with mylar where now do we want another massive waste stream like the Graham containers and the pre-roll containers that literally are littering the streets of Portland anywhere you go. It is an absolute eyesore fuckery that has to get solved. So obviously glass, as Josh is lifting up, is like the fantastic solution. And I love even, I don't know how many people are using the sort of fermentation equipment where you can pump oxygen out of glass.

2:28:59SpeakerThere's a lid that attaches to any normal sort of glass jar. And then like a wine preserver, you sort of pump out the oxygen. And then with removing that oxidative stress and bringing that into potentially refrigerated environment, but being able to just extend the longevity All of that aroma intensity, I think is one of these giant QA QC pieces. One more tiny riff here is that I think that sensory science has been coming up a lot in the clubhouse conversations recently.

2:29:28SpeakerAnd that one of the fascinating things is here, we may be, according to the hops people, overweighting the importance of the analytics. Obviously, the analytics are unbelievably important. It's just that from a product quality perspective and the average patient and consumer perspective, it's so much more about Sort of the experience of that product. And the fact is there's really amazing technical ways to do sophisticated sensory evaluation that I do not see generally happening in our space.

2:29:58SpeakerI see individuals practicing that, but there's a woman named Lauren Salazar, who's at New Belgium Brewery for 10 years, who built this really robust sensory science program that now has gone out to all kinds of other breweries. She's just recently started working in cannabis and she has some fantastic podcasts. This notion of in order to move from more subjective perception of effects into a more objective evaluation of sensory using the human olfactory, which I mean, we could say that we can detect up to a trillion potential aromas, but really let's just go into the infinite with numbers we can't quantify or characterize.

2:30:36SpeakerAnd that we don't even have language or will ever have language to describe the nuance of that kind of vastness. But we can take panels of people who are highly trained to identify their own anosmias, which are the things we can't smell well or at all, and essentially through a diverse group over time, get pretty consistent results and talk about that. In a lot of ways, I feel like this is one of the things that challenges The hegemony of purchasing high THC products to open the door to all of the moderate potency, poetic, incredible expressions of the plant that I think she genuinely wants to be in the world because I keep finding some of the most aroma intense profiles beneath 20% THC.

2:31:19SpeakerAnd that ultimately it's like just a really valuable experience to be cherished, but literally I can't exist in the wholesale market. I can't sell that product. I can't grow that product. I will lose every dime that I put into that product, which is absolutely horrifying to me. If we have an educated sensory approach that then we'll have a lot more uptake there. So one last bit is that the Cultivation Classic has data over the last couple of years that Dr. Aidy Ray, Jeremy Sackett, and myself will be coming forward with shortly that looks at that population dynamic that I've already described One of the cool findings was that aroma intensity when blinded and randomized was by far the most important qualitative attribute in cannabis.

2:32:01SpeakerWhen blinded and randomized, seven out of 10 people would always choose varieties that were under 20% THC. That is exactly the inverse of what's happening in wholesale and now in the new scaling production environment. So I just want to pay an homage to all the sensory scientists and the people who are working to describe In a pretty objective fashion, that element and then that to counterbalance the amazing analytic work to ultimately open the door to more product diversity, more product enjoyment, a deeper connection to the diversity of the product and not just get stuck in fruit floral fuel or sort of like massive archetypal sort of descriptions and missing all of this nuance, especially that's coming out of the organically grown products, which I consistently experience as exactly as Mark described.

2:32:49SpeakerIt's slightly less cannabinoids potentially, although I routinely am getting up to 34% total cannabinoids in many varieties that we're cultivating, but in general, lower, but more diverse, more sensuous, more present, more evocative. Few thoughts there.

2:33:05PeterYeah.

2:33:07SpeakerWhen you talk like that, Jeremy, that you're just really in total alignment with what exactly what I was saying before with if we're rolling up a chair for the plant and we're asking the plant, what is it that she would like to come out with? It is quantifying in all of those different expressions. And in that same way, we find that All of these things, then,

2:33:55SpeakerAll into full harmony and holistic expression of the plant. And I think that that's really important with what you're talking about. And really quickly, when you were saying about drying, that is also what we are following here on the farm. But it's also what's happening in a natural expression when you let your plants go to full fruition. There's a lot of moisture in the air during the fall time.

2:34:19SpeakerAnd then when you bring it into a 50-50 or a 60-60, you are going to get that quick dry and then that prolonged sort of balanced expression of a good curve. So thank you for talking about that. I think it's naturally happening as well.

2:34:38Josh Dragonfly Earth MedicineAnd Dr. Lewis, you can say something on this too in a sec. I was just wondering that the terpenes are higher in the organic or the regenerative grown, and maybe the cannabinoids are lower. But do the terpenes make the cannabinoids more powerful? I mean, I would think Ethan Russo or someone would

2:34:54SpeakerWell, you said, remember, our analysis were with the same genotypes when I make that assertion that lower cannabinoids in general and higher and more robust terpenoids in general. That's comparing the same plant to each other in the two different environments. I want to make sure to distinct that. It's not an overall, because if you have... You know, something that naturally produces 30% cannabinoids, it's still going to get almost 30% cannabinoids.

2:35:23SpeakerIt's just going to be in general a little bit lower and their terpene profiles be a little bit higher. And one thing that we didn't talk about with respect to, you know, preservation of terpene profile is genetics has a contribution to how a plant cures. One of the biggest problems that we experienced in the early days of breeding the enhanced flowers, which Thank you for joining us today.

2:36:11SpeakerWell, it helps to displace the oxygen, doesn't it Mark?

2:36:41SpeakerIt does, but it depends on the size of your container and the amount of free space. Because if you have a really large container that's really full to the rim and you don't have a whole lot of oxygen, it's not going to get harmed a whole bunch. Or if you pull out that oxygen, it's going to obviously preserve better, right? And, you know, we've done studies where, you know, we use nitrogen or argon to, you know, displace the oxygen.

2:37:04SpeakerBut really, if it's stored properly, the differences are relatively insignificant. It's actually, you see, in our experience, you see more changes in the THCA to THC conversion than you do in the terpene nose, if you store it properly, of course.

2:37:21Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, I know that it's related, but in the potato chip industry, they've They've switched to now blowing up those potato chip bags with nitrogen because what they find is that the nitrogen does blanket, you know, the, I guess the polyunsaturates in potato chips that would degrade and create, you know, oxidative degradated smells and other aldehydes and other shit like that. I'm sure it would be the same thing with canvas, maybe much to a much lesser extent than potato chips.

2:37:57SpeakerRight. Well, think about a potato chip. It's like the maximum surface area possible. Right. So, and you think about a bud, it's, it's all compact typically, and most of the flavor and compounds are protected by the trichome and the cuticle. So you have a couple layers of protection there. And actually that's, that's one of the things that we did for a client about eight years ago is started, they started using different, um, The sorbent bags that like, you know, nuts come in and stuff and they would blow them up and only fill them up about halfway so that you couldn't, you could not squeeze it to crush the bud.

2:38:34SpeakerYou know, whereas with turkey bags, they spin them all down and pull them tight and smash them into duffel bags or whatever. And that really helped with preserving the aroma as well because you weren't destroying the physical structure that encased the aroma and the molecules. It's funny you bring up the nitrogen. We actually switched to nitrogen sealed packaging about three years ago with our collective. It changed the game completely for us and for me as a buyer.

2:39:01SpeakerYou know, we went from housing probably 15 to 20 cultivars to at one point before regulation, I think we had 108 cultivars on the shelf.

2:39:12Dr Mark ScialdoneHow long are you storing those packages? So the things that you're putting under nitrogen, how long are they in storage for before they're opened up again? And are they at room temperature?

2:39:22SpeakerYeah, so we keep those in a temperature-controlled vault. Obviously, we just help with retention there. We've seen and we've done studies. I mean, I've opened cans that were two years old and still had a crazy nose. And, you know, we're out of this world. It took a long time to gain the consumer's trust because they're used to opening and seeing and being able to look at that.

2:39:45SpeakerBut for us, as far as being able to create consistency for the consumer, as far as being able to purchase enough to have it be stable on the shelf, And also add variety. It was game changer for us. You know, it allows me to buy more. And also we can house it a little longer. And we've seen, you know, the retention there with the terpenes, it's kind of out of this world.

2:40:09SpeakerIt's sealed, you know, and with the jars you see with glass and anything else, it's still just dissipating oxygen. They're not completely sealed. And so Aaron Wiggins, CFO, Financial Services, Financial Services, Financial Services, Financial Services, Financial Services,

2:40:37SpeakerThose terpenes start to change to like Neradol and some of the other ones that are a little less appealing. So it's a race against the clock the whole time for the terpenes. Luckily for us, we have a situation where we're a little more vertically integrated. I'm allowed to work with the farmer directly We have our own distribution that packages one door down from the retail. So once, you know, you know, really just having the SOPs in place to make sure that, you know, your, your dryness levels, the moisture, the humidity, everything in the room when you're packaging is ideal.

2:41:08SpeakerIt all takes place and making sure that you can retain that terpene. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I was just going to say something totally off of this. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:41:34SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:41:58SpeakerIn the very end. So I know this is really obvious, but I love it that we're even having little drips of conversations here of having that bridging communication all the way back to the farmer, because I think we really have an understanding of all those different varietals from a different view from the packager and the distributor of them. So I love this. I love Kelly. We were just on the same wavelength.

2:42:24SpeakerI was just thinking the other part of the connection is when consumers and patients are going to retail and saying, gosh, if you have that big jar of flour with all of the breakage on the bottom under lights, and you're taking more than a week to go through that inventory, this is disrespectful to the farmer, to the plants, to the whole equation. And that there needs to be some reconciliation around How even that last point in the chain works.

2:42:50SpeakerI know at Pharma, I created a Russian nesting doll strategy where it had to be a series of progressively smaller containers All to the point where never would we expose the flower to the environment if it wasn't an amount we were going to go through in that day. Interesting, I don't know if everybody knows, but Oregon is actually the only sort of deli style market where we don't have forced pre-packaging, which was a battle that I won at the OLCC rulemaking advisory committee.

2:43:17SpeakerThere was many I lost, but I did get that. Unfortunately, in the pandemic, that's kind of out the window. But the idea that you can connect people to aroma and actually view and connect with the product is a really important part of, I think, the selection process. But back to I think the Russian nesting doll strategy is one element. Another thing that we've tried, I've ordered pickle jars off of sort of like Alibaba that are stainless steel that have clasps.

2:43:44SpeakerThey can fit a half pound and enough room to then, we've used a mixed gas. I was in Chile working with my friend Pablo Mendez at Diacam three years ago, and they had some really interesting food scientists. And Mark or Dr. Lewis, I don't know if, You might know more, but their strategy was to have an 80-20, 80% nitrogen, 20% CO2. And they claimed that that addition of the CO2 actually helped to suppress fungal pathogen over time and that there was a lot of food packing that was using that solution in South America.

2:44:17SpeakerSo we just adopted that. I haven't seen a lot of data to support or substantiate that. But then I like this idea of packing small increments. We wanted to create a reuse program and buy these containers And then have a sanitation process where we would drop only in 228 gram increments. So like mountain of these like containers into the retails and then request those containers back. Unfortunately, it was literally, I kept running into compliance issues and the sanitation issue was a big cost in terms of getting the kind of equipment that you need to clean that.

2:44:50SpeakerIt's just that we're really in this conundrum right now with packaging. And thankfully, actually, one other little highlight is that in the last year, for the first time, if you're aware of sauna packaging, there's a few people who are working with compostable packaging, with recycled ocean plastic, with 100% post-consumer stuff. And there's at least some options that just in the last year are now cost effective. Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman,

2:45:36Collin PalmerI think what you're illustrating is something, you know, for me on the East Coast, it's it's we don't have this this luxury of deli style or the bodega style, you know, experience, so to speak. It's it is a CPG world. So we have to look at the supply chain and then we have we have ratios of medical versus rec. All of these are things that we have to keep at all times.

2:45:59Collin PalmerAnd it just forces us in a regulatory way to have to package. We chose to go with glass. I chose to induction seal and to try to do the best that I could. You know, like you're illustrating, we just we have so many things we have to look at. What is enough to package? How many batches do we really go through a day? Do we really need to have all this packaged up?

2:46:25Collin PalmerYou know, all really valid questions. And I think, you know, for myself, it's it's really hard because I see a totally different product behind the scenes that I see my customer walk away with. And it's just a really hard thing to go through because Yeah, we're essentially packaging up, you know, dying flowers, you know, things that are changing composition as it's sitting there right before our eyes.

2:46:51Collin PalmerSo it's a really tough, tough thing. You know, I'm always looking at new containers. Like I have this galaxy container here. While I really love where their head's at, I want to see a glass, you know, like, All right, let's get started.

2:47:13Collin PalmerThere's a lot of people thinking about this, but I think we just, you know, we've got to keep pushing to get glass. We've got to get keep pushing to get reusables. Here we go. Nice. So, yeah. So if yeah. And what you're talking about, Jeremy, is amazing. I use those in the lab for any oil that I've made. It's like immediately I'll do that to preserve, to try to try to then put that in refrigeration or, you know, a freezer, a freezer, if you will.

2:47:42Collin PalmerSo I think we're in this conundrum right now where we have this amazing behind the scenes efforts happening that are then, like you're illustrating, Jeremy, just quite simply being not represented at a retail level. So it's really heartbreaking in some respect. And I know I go through that with my hash all the time where it's, you know, I can only do so much. It's a cold chain item, you know?

2:48:12Etienne FontanIt's a huge conundrum because we, as the consumer level, we see more people just putting things in a jar, whereas the jar is this big and the product's this big. So you're left with an over abundance of, you know, decomposition due to the oxygen that's left in there and how few, and I think Joe can probably attest to this, is how few people are actually doing any type of Thank you so much for joining us.

2:48:59Etienne FontanWe've got a lot of people that we're going to have to deal with. We're going to have to deal with. We're going to have to deal with. We're going to have to deal with. We're going to have to deal with. We're going to have to deal with.

2:49:22SpeakerYou have to bring it into from the, you know, the cultivator to distribution. Then depending on the distributors, SOPs, and how they handle the flower, then you have to schedule it with a lab. Then you have to wait for the lab to come. Then the lab touches the flower. Then it goes back into quarantine. Then it comes out of quarantine. So you're getting touched and moved over from different climates and different areas throughout the whole entire process.

2:49:44SpeakerAnd unfortunately, not everyone as is a good fortune as we are to have been vertically integrated. You know, there's a lot of people that just don't have that. And so being able to tell that story like you guys were talking about earlier of the plant and of the cultivators, you know, it's really about establishing those relationships and really trying to get that flower to market where you're really giving it the true representation of what that plant's supposed to be.

2:50:10SpeakerIt is frustrating, especially with taxes in the state to see these eighths go out the door where, yeah, these are half the jar, three, a quarter of the jar is full. You have all the air in there. You have the tact. You open it up and it's gone. It's dry. It's dust. You can't even roll a joint. And so, yeah, it's a shame. I don't think a lot of the growers who are just getting purchased out, they don't even get, they don't see what their flower looks like on the end result.

2:50:35SpeakerAnd so really it's just that battle against the clock.

2:50:39Etienne FontanOn top of that, it's, you know, and I think this is a terrible injustice. You know, there's four universities here in the United States that teach packaging and one's here at San Jose State University. And so they actually have a nitrogen infusing machine right there in the classroom just to show them how they actually do coffee. And we were discussing that literally a decade ago on infusing that with cannabis.

2:51:02Etienne FontanSo, I mean, there's four universities here, people. So if you contact San Jose State University, they have over a thousand students that actually have, that are in the market right now, they can find your properly biodegradable or secondary use unrecycled products. It's just, it's going to cost more. I mean, that's the reality, but the consumer has shown that they will pay more if they know A product is quality and sound and even packaged in quality.

2:51:31Etienne FontanSo there needs to be an education so that more manufacturers and distributors actually make that investment so that the consumers can benefit from it. Otherwise, we're left with tons of trash and not including cartridges.

2:51:47SpeakerEtienne, also, I appreciate one of the things you just brought up was the negative impressions on nitrogen packed cannabis. In the Oregon early rec market, we saw these survivalist tins that had packed eights. And there was like some big IP deal where you had to pay a lot of money to use that technology. But bottom line is, I think one of the issues that we saw was people simply weren't measuring moisture with like a moisture analyzer or getting Consistently correct 10%.

2:52:14SpeakerAnd if they were packing just a little bit over moist, then when we seal it or unseal it, you get this moment of you've got the nose, but then the product is crap. And we saw a lot of bad brand impressions, exactly. But now that we're getting the moisture really on point and packing in that way, I am seeing absolutely benefit from suppressing that oxidative force. There's one other quick trial I just wanted to mention that's happening right now that I think is fascinating.

2:52:39SpeakerEthan has been coming down to proof, and we're doing this trial on a sort of folk cryo. It's very much, this is a little bit of an aside, but I think very related. It's all about preserving these attributes that we see at the production, then hopefully getting it all the way to the endpoint. Essentially, he's made a freezer that is a chest freezer, or excuse me, it's like a cooler, that we have dry ice on the bottom, a metal vessel we put the flour on top of that's conductive, And then a metal tray on top with dry ice above it.

2:53:10SpeakerThen the cooler has a spigot and the spigot is left open and it creates a convection and it is like a very cheap way to get to a lyophilization like process. We took fresh harvested plants. We immediately put the fresh harvested plants in the cryo chamber. Then we did a very brief dry of the fresh material, then put that into a mechanical separator. We have lab results from light scale labs for the flower before it was keefed.

2:53:40SpeakerThe flower after it was keefed and the keef, we did that process and now we're contrasting it in the second wave with my typical like technical drying process and we're doing the exact same sort of three points of data. The first thing that we saw was a low yield of course because we actually did it too short of a dry and didn't have a very hashy plant and there was a few variables there but what we saw was remarkable.

2:54:05SpeakerThe exact terpenes that were in the flower At the same ratios were in the cryo keef. And even when I'm running normal keef process, I do not see that. I see variation, whether we're seeing degradation of monoterpenes or other elements that just seem to have moved around. We were able with a freshly harvested plant to really, really secure that. And I do think hash is one of the answers, like the most ancient answer.

2:54:32SpeakerTo that preservation of this product that creates a shelf stability with this like incredible rind. And there's this wisdom in that process that I still feel is very underrepresented in this freshness conversation. But I really love flour and I want people to see the flour as we do these unbelievable, passionate, massive expressions. And I think we have some ways to go.

2:54:53MojaveYeah, well, if you think back, you know, 10, 15 years ago when you walked into a health food store, All the essential fatty acids and the probiotics were still just sitting on the shelf. And, you know, like my old co-op, they didn't keep it so cold in there, you know, because they were running on a budget. It wasn't like going to Vons. But then over time, we all started to demand that, you know, our probiotics and essential fatty acids needed to be refrigerated.

2:55:23MojaveAnd if, and then you saw for a while, they had some of them still on the shelf. And then some manufacturers who were really adamant that this product has to stay in the cold chain all the way through manufacturing, shipping, and then eventually retail. And then we, you know, as consumers, we started, we got more educated and then we only bought the probiotics that were in the refrigerated section, you know, and obviously it depends.

2:55:48MojaveThere's some that are more shelf stable and some that are more, you know, dependent on temperature and All that. So, yeah, it's really about the, the, the cold chain. You know, I was talking to a cultivator the other day, um, about some products that they had me sample and, and, you know, I was trying to be polite and just the turps were a little low. And I was asking him about why his turps were a little low.

2:56:07MojaveAnd I looked at the COA and the water activity level was very low. And he said straight out, he's like, look, I can't control what happens when, when this flower leaves my farm. And we've had big issues with mold. And sometimes it sits through the manufacturer, I mean, in the distribution, then it sits at the lab. By the time it's tested, we don't really know what they're testing.

2:56:30MojaveSo to mitigate that, they bring the water activity low, below 50%, which is, you know, at serious risk for terpene loss, obviously, depending on your profile. But that's their fear. They're just like, look, like you said, Jeremy, the biggest, one of the biggest losses for farmers is failure. I was also wondering, anyone using oxygen absorbers in their packaging? I never see oxygen absorbers in cannabis nearly as much as I do in other food products.

2:57:00SpeakerI am, Mojave. I've been deploying these food-grade oxygen absorbers. There's an issue where if you have too much, of course, they get hot. They're creating heat in a small environment. It's a nominal amount of heat. I'm not overly concerned, but that's the primary consideration. So my ideal process was the rigid lightproof container, airtight, packed by hand, then topped off with gas, not a scientific process for nitrogen sealing, just simply literally running the gas for a count and then packing with about two oxygen absorbers per 228 grams.

2:57:38SpeakerThat's been essentially where I've seen the best It's sort of shelf stability of some of the more nuanced profiles. One tiny thing, Mojave, you missed this part about terpenylene. There was this whole riff in the beginning that was so like part of your soul. And one of the things I think about that's fascinating, in my vault, when I have Astralworks, which is a terpenylene dominant type two, it's been there, like we couldn't sell it when we were first growing it because people would not buy a 6% THC profile, but it lasted in the vault for two years.

2:58:08SpeakerTwo years later, it's still, the terpenylene was so remarkably stable. It was a bright, floral, intense note. I mean, it was in a temperature controlled situation like that, but there's no other product I have that had that longevity or rather any other profile that I've seen that has had that kind of longevity. It's a fascinating thing that it's so, I wish Dr. Lewis had not left because I am fascinated about that stability.

2:58:34SpeakerAnd I don't know if even,

2:58:35Dr Mark ScialdoneMark might have information. So maybe it's a sacrificial scavenger, like maybe it scavenges oxygen with time. And so if there is any infiltration of oxygen into the packaging, the high terpenylene content would react with that. Remember that, yeah, what we were saying earlier, Jeremy, and I don't know if Mark kind of picked up on the question, which was that Terpenylene, if it oxidizes, makes terpenol. And depending on where those double bonds are in the molecule, because these are all isomers of limonene.

2:59:18Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so when these are made in a plant, you're kind of in some thermodynamic well, which is that, okay, you get a little bit of limonene, you get a little bit of terpenylene, but I think terpenylene oxidizes on curing to terpenol. And, you know, again, I don't have any data to support that, but you just look at the structure and you say, well, it wants to be an aromatic ring.

2:59:44Dr Mark ScialdoneNow, P-cyamine is the completely aromatic ring with a methyl group on one side and an isopropyl group on the other. But when you have two double bonds like you do in terpenylene, that wants to do chemistry and it wants to do chemistry with oxygen. And if it does chemistry with oxygen, I think it makes terpene null. We're going to look in that sample and see if you see a little bit of your terpenol spike going up.

3:00:12SpeakerI want to measure that. I will do exactly as you've said. One question is, I've never smelled a standard of terpenol, only terpenoline, isolated. Have you smelled that and would you describe them as relatively pretty tight or...

3:00:26Dr Mark ScialdoneAll right, let's see what we've got here. One's a little more kind of like, I guess I would call it less fuel-y and more nutty. Nutty isn't the right word. It's just, it's got kind of like a cinnamon, more like a caraway, but less like a cinnamon.

3:00:43Collin PalmerBut I- Are you seeing what you say? I have some degraded- This is so funny, Collins.

3:00:49Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. This is so funny.

3:00:51Collin PalmerIt gets rounder.

3:00:53Dr Mark ScialdoneYou just kind of get spicy and round. Yeah, this is exactly what we were trying to talk about in the room the other day in Clubhouse. And we just, we diverted to, well, terpenes are a language unto themselves. You can't put words to them. Let me grab some, actually.

3:01:08Collin PalmerI have some degraded terpenes. Let me, I'll be right back.

3:01:10Dr Mark ScialdoneSo you can't necessarily put a word to it. So again, like when I think about like, so terpeneol, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

3:01:49Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, bottom note to it. One's the contrabassoon and the other is the piccolo flute. You know what I mean? In the orchestra. So they just have different frequencies as well as the different volumes. And I think what was really interesting in those graphs that Mark was showing earlier is that one Mark, it really, it's quite, it has this like mint, this is from Jack Herrera.

3:02:40Collin PalmerThis is very, it has a mint kind of vibe to it and it's very round. Like it just has this like soft mint and then you can kind of like just kind of barely smell the Jackie terpene lean sharpness in there and the very touch end of it, really back end of it though. Yeah, not nearly as bright as- No, it's really odd. I mean, it's,

3:03:09Dr Mark ScialdoneSo you're smelling cannabis derived terpenes, not the pure ones, right?

3:03:13Collin PalmerYeah, just cannabis derived. So there's more going on here, right? But it's a dominant, right?

3:03:18Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's a whole different body. As soon as you combine them with other, right? It's a whole different thing, right?

3:03:25Collin PalmerRight now, beautiful. It's so it's so.

3:03:27Dr Mark ScialdoneNo, I'm not saying it's not beautiful. It's much better than smelling the monoterpenes. But the monoterpenes are overpowering and they don't really have the full bodiness that that a cannabis profile of terpenes would have.

3:03:44Collin PalmerSo, Mark, I was looking at beta-osamine and alpha-osamine. Do you know the distinct differences between the effects of those two? Because I really haven't really found any definitive... No, and I think what's even crazy with... Anything definitive about it.

3:04:03Dr Mark ScialdoneI don't know this for a fact, but aren't those two forms of osamine interconvertible?

3:04:09Collin PalmerYes, they are.

3:04:10Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, so it's like one's a cis and the other one's a trans double bond, and If you stare at them cross-eyed, they kind of interconvert. So yeah, mother nature, you know, playing with their Tinker toys. Yeah. I mean, you could really, you know, move the atoms around and, Yeah. Different molecules. And it's just it's so crazy again how sophisticated our olfaction response is in being able to detect slight differences in, say, you know, those those molecules in these in these fragrant mixtures.

3:04:46BubblemanMother Nature playing with her tinker toys. That is the best thing I got out of this whole thing today.

3:04:55Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's about time I did something useful. Well, I think the discussion with Mark was just great, Marcus. So thank you so much for getting him on. And Mojave, it's great to have you on here. We need to have you on here more often. You know, that Clubhouse app is just, we're, It's just off the hook, right? I mean, we get a certain critical mass of people in a room and before you know it, it's just like, yeah, a bunch of stone people talking about our favorite subject.

3:05:27Dr Mark ScialdoneHow long can that go on, right? Our spouses don't like it at all. They think there's a hash church that happens every night. Yeah, exactly.

3:05:36PeterTrue story.

3:05:39MojaveNo, we're, it's like, uh, it's like some serious, uh, Building the new religion of cannabis. It's all coming together. The big, the disciples are all gathering and it gets a little hot in a good way. It's powerful.

3:05:53BubblemanYeah, that's a good way of putting it. My young son will, you know, he'll be like, dad, is it hash church again?

3:06:04Etienne FontanFreaking cannabin nerds and they're fucking wanting to know everything about pot. Geez, I cannot believe this. Shame on you all.

3:06:12Dr Mark ScialdoneI can say though with a fondness, Marcus, that my wife knows the tone of your voice and just can hear like down the hall and says, oh yeah, yeah, Mark's on Hash Church. I can hear Bobo Man talking. It's kind of like your voice has been A very welcome vibration in my household for many years now.

3:06:37BubblemanWe'll give thanks, brother, right back at you. All of you guys, you know, super amazed and stoked. For the conversation today and how deep it went. I felt bad that we were so deep in it. We weren't sort of able to say goodbye to those who had to drop off. So we, Ryan Lee and Joe Sullivan, and we had, why am I spacing? Dr. Mark Lewis and anyone else that's no longer in the room.

3:07:02BubblemanI'm on my phone now and I'm not able to really touch it. So I can't see who's in the room and who's not in the room. But great episode, guys and gals.

3:07:13SpeakerYeah, thank you, Marcus, and all of us. And yeah, it would be nice to do more of these. And I suppose Clubhouse is the platform for the moment.

3:07:24Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, Peter, thanks for sharing that manuscript too. I'm really enjoying, I'm reading that. And at the same time, it's so fascinating to read. So thank you for that. Can we share that? Like, can I upload that? Like the Hash Church... Facebook page or something. I think I could share a PDF there.

3:07:45PeterTotally, man. That'd be an honor. That'd be awesome.

3:07:50Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, it looks really cool. I mean, I think as more studies like this come out, I think they're really going to see the power to regenerative growing, right? I mean, when it actually makes a yield impact and people can understand the economic impact that it has, that I have this field producing this, And this field only producing this, what's the difference? So it's real data. This is fantastic work.

3:08:21Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you so much for sharing.

3:08:23PeterYeah, Mark, thank you for appreciating that and checking it out, man. Thank you so much for doing that for me. Like, brother, thank you. You're such a class act, man. You're a good guy.

3:08:33Dr Mark ScialdoneBlame it on Garcia.

3:08:37Etienne FontanI blame everything on Jerry. Why not? No, seriously, it's great to see Dr. Lewis in here earlier. He and I went through the first Dutch masterclass together back in 2011 with Dr. Hazekamp there in the Netherlands. So that was a fascinating experience. Mark Benthien, M.D. : You know dive down the rabbit hole of understanding the whole Dutch system and providing and if any of you have the opportunity to do so.

3:09:05Etienne FontanMark Benthien, M.D. : I know, Dr house account does those once a year or so and it's just a fascinating deep dive into a country's legal cannabis market, we actually had to go to the. So, you know, better cans grow and actually check out everything, even to go to, you know, a pharmacy where they buy it in bulk and actually distribute it, you know, to patients directly.

3:09:27Etienne FontanSo, yeah, it's good to know that Dr. Lewis is doing good things and still continuing on and being awesome. He's a great addition.

3:09:36BubblemanI think we'll see him more often for sure.

3:09:42MojaveIf you guys ever get a chance, Marks,

3:09:48Mojave2018 Emerald Cup talk is really great. He does a great PowerPoint showing why there's a variety of cannabis for everybody. And he goes through this kind of timeline of the soccer mom trying various types till she finally lands on what works for her. And it's just a great talk. It's a great example of how our supply chain isn't really addressing all the potential consumers that it could.

3:10:17MojaveYou know, so yeah, big kudos to Mark.

3:10:20BubblemanIf I can get access to that and I can ask, you know, either someone through the Emerald Cup side, through Tim or, you know, right through Mark Lewis, if he has a copy of it, I would for sure post that up on my YouTube channel for the audience.

3:10:35MojaveYeah, it's definitely out there. I know I've seen it online. It might be on the Emerald Cup. It might have been on their Emerald Cup site or it might be on YouTube. We should reach out and ask him.

3:10:46PeterHey, Everybody call in and, and... But Mojave, you know what's really cool is that we, the three of us, actually get to fucking hang out with like the founding fucking fathers of the church right now. Some of the founding fathers. So I, for one, feel like humbled to be here with like Etienne and Mark and Wade and Sam. These are like the fucking, these guys are like the guys that created Hash Church.

3:11:17PeterAnd so much fucking gratitude to you guys. For that and having people like us to share with you guys.

3:11:29MojaveHundred percent, man. You guys have I mean, the Hatch Church as a platform has done a lot for cannabis, has done a lot for cultivators, breeders, manufacturers, you know, everything. It's just been an invaluable resource over the years. And, you know, it is an honor to be here sharing the space. Thank you.

3:11:50Etienne FontanThat goes to Marcus. He created it and invited us all in, you know, so if it hadn't been for him, you know, he's the man. So thank you, Marcus. Big love to you, Marcus.

3:12:03Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd his spouse lets him do it.

3:12:06Etienne FontanAnd a tolerance of his age for allowing him to continue to.

3:12:11Dr Mark ScialdoneHe takes family time, time out of his family day, you know, so we all sleep eight hours, right? We all work eight hours and then eight hours for our family. He takes that eight hours out of his family day and unselfishly spends it with all of us. So thank you very much, Marcus.

3:12:30Etienne FontanAnd hey, everybody, go easy on the man. Just because he decides to do Clubhouse because it's easier to access, et cetera, doesn't mean you have to give him a whole bunch of guff. We do this out of love. This is all volunteer. So we just do it because we want to share the knowledge as well. But don't get all up in Marcus's grill just because he's unable to do a hash church.

3:12:57Etienne FontanGo easy there, kids. That's all I'm saying. We do what we can when we can, and we appreciate when we're here, but we can't do this every single day. You know, that's the reality. But sometimes we count on Clubhouse, so...

3:13:08Collin PalmerChris Brown, You know, go easy yeah join clubhouse if you guys want to get in on on the conversation it's always open to everyone it's. Chris Brown, because of each other yeah.

3:13:18BubblemanChris Brown, it's actually not open to everyone it's only open to iPhone users, that was the point of contention, but I do appreciate you mentioning that at the end because yeah we took a little bit of gruff there.

3:13:30Etienne FontanYeah, you can also do it on the iPad too, but hopefully they'll expand onto, you know, other platforms because it's expanding quickly and largely, you know, because it's an accessible platform for everybody and it's, it's mobile and we can, you know, jump on whenever as well as jump off whenever, whereas we've got a specific time and date that we're trying to steer. So, you know, if you get the opportunity, people try Clubhouse, it's worth a shot.

3:13:57Etienne FontanYou know, if you're unable to be patient, It's coming soon and join us on Hash Church here when you can. Much love.

3:14:06BubblemanAwesome. Well, what a great episode today. I want to thank everyone for just coming and sharing. Because I'm driving, I'm not going to go through the whole list of incredible people, but you all know who you are. I'll make sure I add it all into the comments. What an episode for like no mention whatsoever. No promotion of this episode. No, you know, letting anyone know who was going to be on.

3:14:28BubblemanIt just sort of fell together. I always hope to be more organized for the audience to let you know who's coming to kind of gear you up for it. But the loyal ones that have been watching since day one and that are always here, well, you know, it's really it's really for you guys and then for you guys to use Thank you for your relationships to talk about and expose these conversations to a further audience.

3:14:54BubblemanSo I definitely want to thank everyone for that. I'm not sure how I'm going to shut this down because it's all going live from my computer right now. But I think I can make myself an administrator here on my phone. And if that's the case, I should be able to shut down the recording and all that other stuff.

3:15:15Etienne FontanYou are host now, it does say that, so you should be able to. Okay, awesome.

3:15:19BubblemanWell, I want to thank everyone. If you guys all want to say goodbye, I'm going to shut her down in the next couple of minutes.

3:15:25SpeakerThank you, Marcus. Thank you, everybody. It was a great meeting and conversation this day. Thank you.

3:15:34Etienne FontanThank you. Love it. Love it. Love it. Thank you very much, Peter and Mojave for joining us. We hope to see more of you in the future. You're awesome. And your knowledge is exponential. I appreciate it sharing it with you. And I look forward to reading all about it, Peter. I'm going to order some of the soil because I want to try some of my hayseeds out in it.

3:15:51Etienne FontanYeah. Love you.

3:15:53MojaveThanks, everyone. Really great to be here. Look forward to it. I'm back, Mojave. We need you again. For sure, man. Yes, yes. Maybe we'll... We'll pick up a guitar next time, Mark, and we can... Yeah, definitely. Yes, yes. My uncle was the first road manager for the Grateful Dead, by the way, Jonathan Reister.

3:16:13PeterGet the fuck out of town.

3:16:15MojaveDamn! Wait a second, there's stories there. We'll have to jump into that. The man I call my uncle is my dad's best friend, partner in crime, guy who taught me how to drive.

3:16:25BubblemanNext on Hash Church.

3:16:27MojaveYeah, there you go.