Aeroponics and Music Scene Discussion

0:14BubblemanAll right. Sunday, September 22nd. And here we are. Welcome everybody to Ash Church 5.0 Episode 7. And somehow I did it right. And I got us in the right spot. I don't always do that. Let me just make sure I turn off these. There we go. Go and shut that off. All right. See, let me change Mr. Mr. Mr. Mister's name. I'm going to rename him real quick because he is the skunk man.

0:53BubblemanHow you doing there, Lawrence?

0:58SpeakerMarcus?

0:59BubblemanHow you doing? Hey, pretty good. You hear me okay and everything? I can hear you okay, dude. Pretty good for not having headphones on. All right, cool. I would only say when you're not talking throughout the day, just put it on mute exactly. Cool. Exactly. How you doing, Sam?

1:19SpeakerI will be talking 24-7.

1:22BubblemanPerfect, dude. We want your savvy snippets, your sarcastic humor, and your just all-around Skunk Man Sam knowledge. We appreciate it, dude. I wasn't joking. No, I know. You're as serious as a heart attack. Hemp Guy, remember? Yes, I remember Bingo Lombardi. Well, very good. Very good. Sunday morning. Nice to see you guys. We've got a few more. Mr. Dr. Mark Sheldon is popping in here. I guess he missed last week, but I saw him playing a lot of music.

1:54BubblemanSo I think he was feeding his soul. So that makes me happy. Shout out to the Bazaar Brothers. Josh and Corpy for creating the six-star rating. I had someone reach out today and ask me about those guys, so I just happened to have that on hand. And I always want to shout these guys out, man. They did a lot as bubble ambassadors for, yeah, just for the overall scene of the bubble.

2:18BubblemanAnd we got a new guest today. We got Lawrence in here. He's down in Arizona. He's going to tell us a little bit about what he's doing down in Arizona.

2:28Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, Mark.

2:30BubblemanHey, Dr. Mark, how you doing?

2:32Dr Mark ScialdoneGood, man, how are you?

2:34BubblemanI'm doing good, man. It looks like you were playing some fun music this weekend.

2:39Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, oh, man, it's just... The music scene up here is just so cool, man. There's just... Thank you so much for joining us.

3:05BubblemanIt's not so much anymore, unfortunately. I've seen the odd. Yeah, it's harsh, dude. We used to get lots of great shows. All the bands would come here. And I mean, prior to that, I grew up in Manitoba, in Winnipeg in the 80s. And so, you know, everyone was into metal, Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden and ACDC and every metal band on the planet. Thank you for joining us.

3:45BubblemanAnd now like none of them come anymore. It's just like our scene is, yeah, it's the border too. They all have drug charges and they, you know, they all have like sketchiness and somewhere in their crew, like if it's not one of the main band members, it's going to be like some other key person that like runs the build out of the state. Can't go back and forth, man.

4:08Etienne FontanOh yeah, I know it. Crew guy got caught with a Mac 10 under his fucking pillow on his travel bus going between Canada and the United States. Oops. Like a machine gun?

4:21Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. Like a machine gun.

4:25Etienne FontanYeah, that's rock and roll.

4:27SpeakerYou never know when you might need a machine gun.

4:31Dr Mark ScialdoneIt just sucks when you have such a vibrant musical scene that becomes kind of like part of the culture of an area. And then for whatever reasons here, it's politics makes it go away. It sucks because it really it adds to wherever you're living. If there's great live music and just great bands that come through. And yeah, we're lucky here in Vermont because a lot of people vacation up here.

4:56Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd they'll want to see good music. And all throughout the East Coast, there's just great, you know, little theaters and venues. And yeah, Mark, I don't know if you saw, but Bruce Springsteen sat in with Trey Band. I saw. Yeah, out on the... Beach on Asbury Park. Oh my gosh. You know, I mean, Trey kind of delved into his first Bruce Springsteen concert, which I think was at some little small place.

5:26BubblemanI saw that as well. His words were touching. It kind of full circled the experience of having him on stage, you know?

5:33Dr Mark ScialdoneImagine how that must have felt for Trey to be up there with the boss, you know, two guys from Jersey, you know, it's just, it's wild.

5:42BubblemanAnd you also have to think like, you know, Trey doesn't come across as a rock star, but he's a total fucking rock star, dude. Like he's had experiences that like the majority of the population will never have. So for him to even have an experience like that, that he hasn't had is also mind blowing.

6:01Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, and you know, Fisher just taking it to the next level. This last tour was just great, and they're doing a benefit concert for Trey's Recovery Clinic here in Vermont in Albany at the end of October. But yeah, they're going to get the nod for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame this year. It's got to be their year. It's their 41st year. There's really no live band that delivers like they mark.

6:30Dr Mark ScialdoneThey still kill it every night, man. It's just a new list of songs. It's not some prerecorded canned show. I mean, and yeah, they make it available and their festival was really successful on a few levels. But yeah, it's just great to have a vibrant music scene.

6:51BubblemanOh, I'm stoked for you, dude. You well deserve it. That's for sure. I, uh, you know, we have awesome mountains for snowboarding, so I'm not crying. I got, I got that.

7:01Dr Mark ScialdoneWe got some nice mountains up here in the VT too. You do.

7:04BubblemanYou absolutely do. But I'm telling you, you could put them just on one of my mountains, all of them, just like in one section of my mountain, you could put like... It's like 8,000 acres, Whistler Black Home, and then it's surrounded by 192 glaciers that if you have access to a sled or a helicopter, they're all rideable mountains. It's insane. It's like we are, other than Alaska, we are doing amazing for mountains when it comes to riding snowmobiles, snowboards, skis, whatever it is.

7:37BubblemanWelcome, Colin, to the room, Mr. Vessel. Colin's been very helpful, helping bring on guests for the last seven episodes. He's been like, he's the one guy that promotes the show before the show. You guys ever notice in the email, I'm like, this is the link for sharing to your social media? Well, Colin does because he shares it, goddammit.

7:56SpeakerI try, man.

7:58BubblemanMarcus. Yes?

8:01SpeakerNo, I was just going to ask you, did you ever make it to the USA recently?

8:06Bubblemanno i did not make it to the usa and it actually like caused a bunch of crazy problems believe it or not i uh i went to the airport for the first time to go to the us in like 27 i think the last time i went was fish at the gorge in 98. that was the last time i was over the border that's when i picked up marble slinger hitchhiking on the side of the road And then he was like, oh, can we bring my friends?

8:30BubblemanAnd that was like Jason Lee and his girlfriend. So it was this whole crazy experience. But I did go to go again. I went with my friend, Allison. Addison and I were throwing this Legends of Hash. Sorry, this was the Spanish one. We were throwing the Portland one. And I went to the border. Our border here in Canada, when you go to the US, US Customs is at the airport in Vancouver.

8:55BubblemanSo that's, I was like, you know what, I'll just go through the border here at US Customs. I'll check it out. I got up to the thing and immediately the guy said, oh, do you have your waiver? And right when he said that, I was like, oh, this isn't good. I don't have a waiver. I'm just trying to, you know, I just try to go. I guess I had this roach charge from 1991, 0.02 of a gram.

9:16BubblemanHe showed me the paper. He's like, yeah, you got charged in 91 with a roach or you got caught, not charged. I said, okay, well, what, you know, that was quite a while ago. And I remember your experience, Sam, when you came here to visit me from 1960 something.

9:32SpeakerI landed in Vancouver. They told me I couldn't come in. So I flew back to Seattle, got on an airplane. And no, excuse me, I rented a Jeep. Correct. And drove across within 24 hours.

9:48BubblemanAnd then we had a visit. It was amazing. It was total Skunk Man Sam style. Eye on the other hand got denied. Quick question.

9:56Dr Mark ScialdoneDid they actually use the word roach?

9:59BubblemanYeah, they did. It said it right on the document too. It was like 0.02 of a gram of a roach. And I'll never forget it. I remember getting caught with that roach because they charged me 5,000 US dollars to get my van back. And that was fucking hilarious. That was an absolutely astonishing amount of money for me when I was like 18 or 19 years old. But they did not let me back in.

10:22BubblemanSo I got denied, which was a real bummer. I wanted to get down to Portland. It kind of broke my partnership up with Addison, the guy I was throwing legends with. Because he actually thought I did not try to come over the border. I'd also been trying to get an ITIN number. So basically a few key things happened and it really collapsed our partnership, which is fine.

10:44BubblemanHe's doing his own event. I hopefully will get my name back that he registered in the US. And if I can get that back, then I will throw Legends of Hash Parties again. I'm working on getting a waiver and I hope to be back in the US here before the 30 year anniversary of not going anymore. So I'm doing the best that I can. Yeah, John Doe says he'll sneak me in through Mexico.

11:07BubblemanIt's legal to walk over.

11:08SpeakerWhat you need to do is admit, say, absolutely, it was a roach, a cockroach.

11:16BubblemanDude, I'm telling you, when I was at the border, the guy right ahead of me was caught with joints, gummies, Xanax, and a bag of flour. I was like, holy shit, this guy's in big trouble. And they kind of dealt with him for half an hour. And then he was like, okay, no, it's fine. You can go. And I watched him go out the door that is like the door to salvation, the door that takes you to your plane.

11:40BubblemanI watched him go and I was like, what the fuck? So I walked up and I asked him what's going on. And he said, oh, well, he's an American citizen. I said, oh, so the zero tolerance is just for anyone that's not an American citizen. He said, yeah, exactly. It's for all. It's for all other people from any other country. So they still stick to their zero tolerance in their defense.

12:01BubblemanSo too does Canada. As per Skunk Man Sam's story, it happens. It's shitty. It is what it is. I want to welcome Wade and Dutch to the room. Nice to see you both this morning. Yo, good morning. Look at the sun shining on Wade like he's the chosen one.

12:20Etienne FontanYes, he is.

12:23SpeakerAwesome. It is.

12:23BubblemanIt is true.

12:29Collin PalmerI wanted to say I went to the Boston Freedom Rally yesterday. We had a hash talk there, hash panel that Duchess moderated. It was really good. It was a good, it was rainy, but there were some key individuals there that were excited to be there to learn about all the things that we were speaking about and Those that are listening out there, thank you for coming. And the Boston Freedom Rally on the East Coast is one of the last of the original community driven events out there.

13:02Collin PalmerSo much respect to those that are doing it. And we love what you're doing. And I love the community that you guys have brought together. So thanks for doing that.

13:12BubblemanWhat were some of the top points on the panel that you guys kind of were getting into?

13:18Collin PalmerSo we talked about true micron versus mesh screens, meaning stainless steel microns that are considered what's, the term is true micron. So what that really means to the listeners and everyone is that the micron size has a hard time expanding. So it stays intact. So when you have a 120 or a 73 or a 90,

13:42Collin PalmerI'm not saying it can't change because I don't believe that, but I do believe that it'll stay at that micron screen size longer. And it also gives you a flat surface area to work with. And the topic was, does it give you... One person, this girl brought up who was amazing. They're from Vermont. And they were talking about how it gives them more surface area. And I think...

14:04Collin PalmerAnd Colin, have you ever used...

14:35SpeakerLaser drilled round hole screens?

14:38Collin PalmerNo, but I did bring up your name and said, look, all of this stuff has been happening since the beginning that, you know, Skunk Man Stan's been using this since the very beginning. And I had a feeling that you had something to share here on the topic. So what have you seen besides that?

14:56SpeakerThey actually have less surface area because of the square holes. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll be right back.

15:31BubblemanThank you so much for joining us today.

16:00BubblemanThank you for joining us.

16:18BubblemanI think a lot of people don't understand this when they copy bubble bags. I absolutely agree with that, Marcus.

16:33BubblemanWell, of course you do. You're the fucking mentor. You're the guy that probably taught me all about this in the first place. But it's the truth. So when it comes to screen, you can manipulate your screen to the point where you use a very thin diameter of thread. You heat stamp it so it never loses its form even after going in and out of water hundreds of times.

16:52BubblemanAnd you end up with more surface area of hole versus surface area of screen. So that's something to get people thinking about. With the holes, you can only go so close to the other holes before you affect the integrity of that screen. So laser perforated holes are true micron, but they will have a less percentage of holes Thank you so much for joining us.

17:45BubblemanExactly. Holiness is next to godliness. I love it, man. But that's an interesting perspective that you brought up there. You know, I was on a panel the other day as well at this secret session thing that we did, or summer session, sorry, put on by Brittany here in BC. And The conversation for us, it was about concentrates and consumption, was really about the lack of consumption space here in Canada.

18:13BubblemanAnd I'm sure it's probably the same down in the US. We have all of these laws. You can buy it for decades. You can go home and smoke it, but they Thank you so much for joining us.

18:46BubblemanAnd then you can kind of go back upstairs to the area and there's a dab bar and there's people rolling joints because it's a private club and they've got a decent HVAC system, decent, not great. You can smoke up there because of its privacy. So I think that in regards to consumption in Canada, in particular BC for certain, we're always going to have to fight We're going to have to use that sort of manipulation of the rules, i.e.

19:13Bubblemanmake sure that we have private club access because for those that want to smoke joints around other people, smoking is just like a no-no everywhere in Vancouver, particularly indoors. So it'll be interesting.

19:30SpeakerWe need to all fight until we can all smoke nude on a nude beach together.

19:38BubblemanOkay, we've got those. I got a nude beach just down the street from my house. It's probably like a two minute drive. I got another one at Wreck Beach over by the Endowment Lands where the University of British Columbia is. I will say I've spent a little bit of time on nude beaches and I will fight for your right to be on a nude beach, but I'm not a big fan of the nude beach.

19:59BubblemanA little bit of a creepy vibe going on there sometimes. There's always a couple dudes that just shouldn't be there. Am I right? Yeah. With sunglasses on.

20:09Etienne FontanIt's always the people you don't want to see naked.

20:16BubblemanOh my God, this conversation is taking quite a turn. Listen, I want to introduce Lawrence. He is down in Arizona and Lawrence is a part of the group. I don't want to get this wrong. Is it Aries? Arise. Arise. See, I did get it wrong. Doesn't matter.

20:30SpeakerEverybody does. Don't worry about it.

20:31BubblemanBut these guys are doing aquaponics and they're doing a bunch of different extractions. So I kind of invited him on today to talk a little bit about aquaponics and the scene that they got going on and sort of the extracts that they're doing. So, you know, introduce yourself, dude, let everyone know kind of who you are, where you're from, how you got into this. And then, you know, tell us a little bit about what you guys have been doing down there.

20:55SpeakerSure. Well, hey, guys, I'm Lawrence Lawson. I am the guy who runs the extraction lab for Arise in Arizona. I'm actually originally from Alaska. You mentioned that before. Yes, the mountains. No. And so we're unique in that we don't do aquaponics. We do aeroponics. Ah, yes. Yeah, it's, as far as we're aware, we are the largest aeroponic cannabis grower in the country, maybe the world. I don't know what the Israelis are doing over there.

21:26SpeakerBut aeroponics is kind of unique because we essentially have to build our tables so that our roots hang down into them. And then we spray water with our nutrient solution directly onto the roots as they're hanging there. It allows for really deep control in what we're putting into the plants. It allows for our test results to be very nice looking, high cannabinoids, high terpenes, super clean. It does come with its own set of problems, obviously.

21:53SpeakerIf you mess up one little thing, it can definitely take down an entire table. So our grow team, especially our head grower, is very talented, has a lot of experience. So pumping out some good stuff. In the lab, we do kind of every skew that you can think of. Hydrocarbons, CO2 for oil and terpenes. We do distillate. We do solventless. All the different kinds of carts is kind of everything.

22:18SpeakerWith aeroponics, do you recycle the spray water? Yes, we do. Okay, because then like aquaponics, it will spread HLVD through the roots very quickly if you got a plant infected.

22:36Collin PalmerYeah. The question I had is in terms of like just hurdles for your environment, because it's, you know, there's a lot of water, you know, airborne water there. How often do you guys deal with the triatus or PM?

22:55SpeakerI mean, our, our grow team has, you know, an IPM program in place. We very rarely have PM and mold issues. If we do, we grow a lot of plants. So, I mean, if we can just toss like a bad table, it's not the end of the world, but it does require a lot of work. Like you said, water spraying through the air, humidity issues. We're in Arizona.

23:16SpeakerSo if an AC stops working and the temperature shoots up, it can cause all sorts of problems. Our head grower ends up Come into the grow to fix a problem in the middle of the night. Every now and then it happens. But we just work very hard at trying to keep everything nice and clean all the time.

23:32Collin PalmerCool.

23:33SpeakerYeah, that's what you got to do for sure.

23:35Collin PalmerYeah. Yeah. No, I was just going to ask, like, so from an HVAC point of view, you know, I've spent decades working with HVAC. I'm sure a lot of you guys have, too. And I've now in the last two years, I've been really studying reheat technology because. Thank you so much for joining us.

24:15Collin PalmerSo it's a lot to field and a lot to think about. So have you thought about using reheat? Has anyone on here talked about reheat technology? Have you looked into it and what it is? Does anyone understand what it is?

24:27SpeakerI have not looked into it at all. I've not heard of our head grower looking into it necessarily either, but yeah.

24:34Collin PalmerThere's a couple of people out there pushing it. A few that are doing it really well. My team and I got on a call with a guy in the Midwest and his dad kind of invented this thing and we were trying to pick his brain as to You know, what's the right way to go here? Because we're just open-minded and yeah, we've used traditional HVAC and, you know, everyone has, you know, you're chasing your tail all the time, especially for indoor.

25:00Collin PalmerSo if there's a better way that's maybe a little bit unconventional, but really precise in terms of, you know, controlling the environment, it seems like reheat technology could be really helpful to not only greenhouse, but Just dialing in certain growth styles like yours. So that's why I brought it up. No, that's interesting to think about.

25:26SpeakerI did a little aeroponics back in the day. I set up and consulted with a lettuce grow in Faribault, Minnesota. It was that we were designing it. And so I got brought in as the guy who knows how to grow plants. And there was an engineer and a CEO. It was a super fun experience. We designed this. It's still up and growing. It's This A-frame system we were growing lettuce on, and it was going down this track, right?

25:55SpeakerSo you'd have these four by eight, you know, metal stands that would have rollers on the bottom. You put them on this metal track reservoir, if you will, and there'd be a trolley that shot up and down the middle, spraying onto the roots. Plants are out here, roots are in here, lights are in the aisles, right? It was a really cool system. And then we'd slide the lettuce down to the end, fold it in half, run it through a lawnmower, And then put it back on at the beginning.

26:22SpeakerAnd so you just kind of, the system was you get three or four runs out of lettuce and you just mow the top off of it. And we were doing lettuce from seed in like 20 some days, 23 days, basil in like 32 days that we could harvest. It was crazy fast. And that's what actually got me into aquaponics. And like, you know, I was like, all right, we got to figure, I wanted to figure out how to do it organically.

26:42SpeakerAnd aquaponics was a route, the route that I went, you know, to be able to, Use organics and then also incorporate in aquaponics. You can incorporate the soil a little bit, which gives access to the myocarditis and is a cool thing. But I haven't seen too many big cannabis grows do it. So it's exciting. It's super efficient for folks that don't know. In terms of water, it's like 90% more efficient.

27:07SpeakerThe plants grow extremely fast, like very quick. Actually, I'm breaking down some aquaponic auto flower. Someone sent me some auto flowers and I was, you know, my stash was drying out. So I threw them in these aquaponic towers and 45 days ago, you know, it was like 60 days with drying. Like, holy shit. You know, it's not an award-winning weed, but holy shit, it's fast.

27:33BubblemanIt's fast both ways, too. It's fast like you can finish a crop fast or you can just utterly and completely destroy a crop fast if you want to.

27:44SpeakerYeah, I had I had so I had mine outside, right? This is to the point. And it rained heavy rain and it shorted out the electrical. So I came out the next morning. It was like, holy fuck, let's go. Everything's dead, almost dead. You know, I had to like get get it going and they bounced back. But, you know, if I hadn't caught that, you know, another couple hours and it would not have been solvable, you know.

28:05BubblemanI remember the first time I saw aquaponics, not aeroponics, was with Breeder Steve. He had a system going, it must have been like 28 years ago or something. He had like the fish and the worms. He had the whole thing set up. And I remember he grew this sweet skunk in the aquaponics system. And I'll tell you, man, that herb was so like... I don't even know how to explain it.

28:32BubblemanIt was just like velvet. It was so... Nice to smoke. That was back when I actually still smoked herb. I don't think I've smoked cannabis in almost 25 years now. Um, but that, that was incredibly just like smooth, nice tasting, like perfectly flushed. The flush was insane. How, how just well it burned. And, uh, Steve was always kind of, uh, ahead of the, uh, Ahead of the curve in regards to a lot of the things that he was doing.

29:08BubblemanHaven't heard too much from him these days. I'm pretty sure he's doing things in Columbia and maybe still has his winery going. But back in the 90s, he was rocking and rolling. There's no doubt about that.

29:21SpeakerYeah, we had him on a show and he was at the Potent Ponics show. I remember a few years back and he was talking about he'd get folks over to his house, probably the same setup that you saw, Marcus, and for shits and giggles, he'd run across the street and order a hamburger and toss a whole hamburger in there and everyone would just watch the fit, just like, bah, bah, bah, bah.

29:42BubblemanOh, that's such a Steve thing. And I was feeding him my hamburger.

29:45SpeakerRight, right. I was feeding him my hamburger. Just go across the street, buy a fucking $2 hamburger and watch the show.

29:52BubblemanDude, just driving certain people absolutely nuts.

29:57BubblemanIt's awesome. That's awesome.

30:01SpeakerThe flavor is on point, dude. Like, you know, when I was going to set up my farm in Washington, I didn't have the money to set up an aquaponic farm. And as I was thinking through, I didn't like the idea of moving pots around. And I like the living soil that I've been growing. And so I just started harvesting the poop. And I have a system here where I don't even grow plants in it.

30:24SpeakerI just use it to harvest the poop. And then I stabilize the poop and put it into my soil beds. And I'm able to achieve, I think, what I think is like the best of both worlds in combining that fish poop aquatic ecosystem into the soil. You know, it makes some fire weed, dude.

30:42BubblemanYou're a poop farmer. I'm a poop farmer.

30:46SpeakerI'm proud of it. Totally, totally. My wife jokes with me like I'm easily, I'm queasy and get grossed out by things, but she'll be like, you have your arms in fish shit like all day long and it doesn't bother you, you know, and you can't like wipe the baby's butt.

31:05Collin PalmerIn 2014, I was growing basil with really a fish tank with freshwater fish in it and feeding the reservoirs with that. The biggest hurdles I had was overload of nitrogen at times. And it was really interesting taking just water samples and just learning about it. But that was, you know, I think if you're trying to grow cannabis in that, I would imagine heavy metals might become an issue at points, especially now in our regulations.

31:42SpeakerYeah, I don't know. I mean, I have no, I don't know. Yeah. Kind of the same thing with aeroponics and aquaponics. One of the things that makes it taste so good is that you're not flushing, you're running extremely low PPM. And I think like in the consistency we have, we need with cannabis, that's the only way to do it. Otherwise you have to start playing Yeah. Really like some crazy games, you know, and decoupling systems where you have one system going that's circulating fish water and then you send that out to the system with the plants and you can control the nutrients up or down if you need to.

32:16SpeakerLike there's really creative tech ways to do it, but it does... I think it's so much fun and so, so much fun to fuck with. But at the end of the day, I want things to be really simple, you know, and with my breeding, that's why I just ended up going towards this other model that's just like so much more consistent and easy and it doesn't fuck up if I fuck up, you know, type thing.

32:38Collin PalmerYeah. No, I never did anything in scale with cannabis with it, but it was interesting to learn growing food crops with those. It was just really fascinating. Just a different style, different mentality to your point. You're just like constantly thinking about, you know, what the EC is and how can you hit it?

32:58Etienne FontanWell, also your parts per millions, right? It's very hard to hit those numbers with cannabis, with aquaponics, right?

33:05Collin PalmerYeah. Well, I mean, I think to Dutch's point, like you could get creative with it and have a big enough tank with enough Fish and perhaps different types of species, right?

33:19Etienne FontanMost are usually doing tilapia. No one is talking about the fish. What type of fish did you use, Dutch?

33:24SpeakerA mix. I started with tilapia. I was kind of early on as the internet was starting to talk about these things. And so there wasn't a ton of information. So I started with tilapia. I got into some paku, which are like piranhas, the vegetarian piranhas from Brazil. And then now I'm into just koi. Koi are hardy as fuck. They have a resale value. So this idea that was kind of sold in the 2000s of, oh, you can grow this aquaponics, you grow your food, sell the fish.

33:55SpeakerIt's like, Yeah, go talk to a chef, you know, and so I was doing it, selling to chefs, selling veggies to chefs, microgreens, tomatoes, hot peppers, and they were just kind of like, yeah, that sounds great, man. But like, how many fish you got in there? Like 75? Like, okay, that maybe you'll do a dinner. Like, you know, this is like, and it's a lot of work.

34:14SpeakerLike, you know, we can't, we can't really pay you that much for what we can get tilapia for, you know, and it's just like, this kind of doesn't work system. Unless you have a really unique Sales Avenue, you know, to figure that out. But the koi are really, really sturdy. And it's also kind of cool if you're into breeding and stuff because koi are, you know, it's just like a pheno hunt.

34:37SpeakerYou can buy a bunch of really high quality koi, small peanuts, and then select the ones that are attractive and resell them, you know, for sometimes some pretty good money, you know.

34:47BubblemanHey, do you want to send Potent Ponics the link to come in before his head blows up?

34:53SpeakerYeah, yeah, we better get him in here.

34:58BubblemanHe's talking about my expertise.

35:00Etienne FontanWell, I know somebody who does very well on the island of Maui, and all he does is sell koi and design ponds. So, I mean, it's a very lucrative business when you're, you know, talking full-grown koi in regions and areas. It's serious. What about the Egyptian mouth breeders?

35:23SpeakerAll right, Steve, I just sent you the link. It's in your...

35:26BubblemanYour eponic system at Arise using the misters was crazy. I can't remember what their water processing. Yeah, there's a guy, Lobo Grow, who knew your videos. It'd be cool if you had some of those YouTube videos, Lawrence, to queue up to show the grow.

35:42SpeakerI do have a couple of grow shots, like grow videos, and you can see the roots and stuff like that in a couple of them. I've never shared a video before. I do have them on my computer, though.

35:51BubblemanI think, I think there's a guy that said he saw your guys' videos on YouTube. Like maybe, maybe your company's posted them before or something. I don't know.

36:00SpeakerWe've had like a couple of YouTube channels come in to interview people and take video of the grow and stuff. That may be what they're talking about.

36:08BubblemanYeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

36:09SpeakerWhat was it? Oh yeah, like Weedmaps came in. My wife's here. She knows what I'm talking about better than I do. I think I saw that. Yeah, Weedmaps and then some other channel did it as well. Gosh, I don't remember. It was years ago now.

36:21Etienne FontanLawrence, can you talk a bit about your misters? You know, what sort of misters do you use to get your mists?

36:29SpeakerOoh, I'm not that deeply involved in the growth side usually.

36:34BubblemanI know that they're- That's why I asked him to bring his grower. Well, I said they're going to ask a lot of questions when we bring up aeroponics. I didn't say that.

36:42SpeakerSorry, we're nerds. What can I say? They're very, very fine because I know way back when I first started, like right after our grow opened up, there was an issue that we had to dial in with them getting clogged because they were too fine of misters. So we had to work through that. It's That's like the name of the game with the aeroponics is those nozzles and getting them right.

37:04SpeakerIt's a very big deal.

37:06Etienne FontanAnd it's consistency hitting the roots, et cetera. Yeah, I mean, because it's a Ferrari, right? If it's not running right, it's a problem.

37:15SpeakerNo, when everything's going right, it's perfect. And then if you screw one little thing up, everything just falls to shit. So this was a well-funded company that I was doing the lettuce with. And they brought in this guy, Richard Stoner, who kind of like worked it out in the 80s for NASA and led those programs. And he was coming in once a month and basically helping us dial in the filter size for the sprayers and the time on, time off.

37:42SpeakerAnd that's when we were able to dial the time on, time off really tightly. And that's where we got those super fast grows. Yeah, the time off is super important. I know they worked very hard on getting that just right. And it's not even the same exact thing for every strain, so they'll respond to more or less watering. It's a whole, it's a lot of record keeping involved here.

38:03BubblemanWhat's up, Steve? Yeah, shout out to Steve and Brian who just popped in. We were on the aeroponics conversation, so it seemed pretty crazy not to have Steve in the room. How's it going, dude? Long time.

38:14SpeakerHey, man. Yeah, it's been a while. I think the last time I saw you, you were just getting things rolling there in Vancouver. I remember you gave us a tour of the building and all when you were just setting up.

38:26BubblemanOh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's still going, believe it or not. Somehow, I don't know how. I honestly don't know how. It was like, woof, woof, just like duck and weave, duck and weave, like companies just burning money in Canada to the ground like you would not believe. I don't know how we somehow managed to... Get absorbed by a group of people who were doing that very thing and then somehow like get out of that situation.

38:53BubblemanAnd now with my new partners, the facility is still there. It looks better than ever. It's got much more equipment in it. And we have no debt, no CRA debt, no partnership debt, no equipment debt. We're a fucking unicorn, bro. That's what we are in the Canadian regulatory framework. We somehow became a unicorn. It was it was. Pretty scary there for a bit, like a year and a half, just like super sketch.

39:20BubblemanYou'll have to come by for another tour. We've got the Plasmatic Dry Sifting Unit now from Sambo Filtration, which I hope to get them on here one of these days and talk a little bit about that unit. Definitely very unique and nothing else like it in the industry.

39:37SpeakerIs that what you use yourself, Marcus?

39:41BubblemanI have used it myself. Yes, absolutely. Is that the Wendy O. Williams model? The Wendy O. Williams model? Yes. From the plasmatics. Right. From the plasmatics. That is the Wendy Williams model. It's unique, Sam. It's different for sure. It's like the process itself, which you know better than anyone, Sam. It works great for great resin. Um, it can still work on, you know, subpar resin and it's harder, um, to work on like really dirty stuff.

40:20BubblemanI kind of thought at first it would be like the dirtiest stuff I could just pour it in. And it was the more sort of chafe and dirt there is like, it's in your best interest to get some of that out if you can, because it just, it's light, it's fluffy, it blows everywhere, attaches itself to everything. So it doesn't attach.

40:37SpeakerAsk you how many passes? Do you have to use with the machine to get things 99.9?

40:43Archive SeedsWell, you'd have to do probably. Because my experience with electrostatic separation, it's hard to get it clean.

40:54BubblemanYeah, well, you definitely have to be OCD. I mean, even your stuff that was the cleanest ever, Sam, wouldn't you run it like between eight and a dozen times, like the most insane?

41:04SpeakerWhen I was doing it with my hand, I had to do it at least five times. Yes. And with a glove, I'm not so sure I don't have enough experience using a glove. But I also found a machine in Europe, which might do the same type of goal. But at the time, it was in Eastern Europe. And I asked them to bring a machine to me. And when they found out what it was I was going to use it for, they refused.

41:39BubblemanRight. A bunch of more prohibition-based baloney. Are you willing to tell your origin story of how you discovered that method? I'm sure I'll be happy to.

41:51SpeakerOkay, so I was in West Africa. And we had some West African grown cannabis. It was just so so. And the people I were with We included a friend of ours named Jimbo and somebody else who I don't want to mention his name because I don't want to use people's names without their permission. But so what they were doing was they were grinding up the resin through a

42:32SpeakerA large screen first and then a smaller screen to get rid of the duh. And they would press their hand down on the resin to do that. And I realized when they were doing the smaller screen that although they didn't notice it themselves, it was Jimbo doing the work, that when he brought his hand up It had an outline of almost pure resin around his palms and fingers.

43:03SpeakerAnd he didn't notice it, but I sure did. And so when I got home to Amsterdam, I experimented a little bit. And sure enough, Static Tech was born. That was like in, I don't know, Maybe 88 or 87, I forget.

43:29SpeakerYeah, I never looked back. Once I had static tech hash and I didn't always clean it up to 99.9 because anything over about 70, 75% resin heads was totally melt and bubble and you could clean up to 99 if you wanted to, but you didn't. Really have to. It just, if you did, then the ash would be almost whitish gray and there would be absolutely nothing left.

44:04SpeakerYou could just blow it on a screen with your breath and it would blow away. But yeah.

44:12BubblemanSo that was 1989, your wife just confirmed in the chat room, which is also the year that I met my wife, coincidental, been with her for 35 years. What is the amendment to that story? When did, if it don't bubble, it ain't worth the trouble? When did that get born?

44:32SpeakerI had that by the same year or a very, very short time later because... The very first time that I cleaned it up four or five times and I had resin that was, you know, in the high 90s percent of resin heads, it melted and bubbled and I just looked at it and other people would show me other hash that they had attempted to make by dry sifting and I says, nah, If it don't bubble, it ain't worth the trouble.

45:13BubblemanYeah, that's crazy. Well, the first time I heard it was in 95, and I was at that, I can't remember if I was with John Conroy or who it was with. But it was that Thai food restaurant with all the lady boy waitresses.

45:32SpeakerOh yeah, down by the Newmark.

45:34BubblemanExactly. And we bumped into Rob on the stairs of that restaurant and he had like the roar. It was probably yours, I'm guessing. Although I didn't see you that night. But he had a roar and he hit us with a bowl right on the stairs. And that was the first time I ever heard someone say, because he said, look at it bubble, look at it bubble. And I was watching it bubble.

45:58BubblemanAnd he said, if it don't bubble, it ain't worth the trouble. And I was just like, whoa, I'd never seen anything like that. That was in 95. I believe it could have been a few years later. It might it could have been it was between 95 and 98 when I when I heard that and saw that. And then really, I don't think I met you until a few years later after Bubble Bags was established because I use that that.

46:26SpeakerWell, you used it with my permission.

46:28BubblemanI didn't mind at all. Well, exactly what and how that worked out was I didn't know it was yours at all. I had put it on like the new bubble bag page. You wrote me an email and you were like, do you know where that came from? At that point, I knew. Rob had told me the story. I was like, and that's when I wrote you and said, oh, I absolutely know that it was yours.

46:49BubblemanAnd if you want me to stop using it, I will. And if I can have permission, that's great. And that's sort of how Sam and I met online. It was through, if it don't bubble, it ain't worth the trouble. And me putting that on bubble bags. Now, obviously at the time I didn't know it, but Sam was just, he is on the ball when it comes to Keeping up with information that is, you know, cannabis related, cutting edge, no matter what it is, he's always had the ability.

47:18BubblemanAnd I'll tell you, it's pretty incredible because back then the internet was way tighter. It wasn't, there wasn't as many places. There wasn't as many people willing to share information openly. I remember when I was doing it, people were like, you are nuts. People definitely, just like Sam called me a DEA agent. Oh, he has to be a DEA agent. Like there's no way he can be doing that.

47:39BubblemanWithout being like a DEA agent and I was just like, what fucking DEA? I was like, dude, three quarters, no, sorry, 90% of the headiest cannabis people in the world don't know about this shit. You think the DEA knows about this shit? Sorry. It's not how it works. They know about it now, but everyone knows about it now.

48:01SpeakerWell, I was never DEA, it was CIA.

48:04BubblemanRight. No, I heard both. I initially, when I, it was in 95, I did hear, which is amazing because what was your, what was the last name you used again? So let's, uh, so let's talk about felt nudge. Seldz Nudge. Right, with the Silent Nudge. And people be like, oh, that's Sam Seldz Nudge. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They tell these crazy stories. And then your wife told me one day, she was like, you want to know the origin story to that name?

48:31BubblemanAnd when she told me that story, which I won't share, it's yours to share if you want to.

48:34SpeakerI don't care if you share it.

48:36BubblemanWell, she basically sat me down. She's like, I'm like, why does everyone think Sam's like a CIA agent or a DEA agent? She's like, yeah, because he does stuff that they can't do in their own country, right? He's getting licenses. He's getting permissions. He knows the pathways. And I said, well, what was the deal with the name? And she said, when he moved to Amsterdam, he took that name sort of as a pseudonym, but she had said...

49:03BubblemanThat it was, it was your nickname from like back in Santa Cruz days backwards. And that was Jingles.

49:11SpeakerCorrect. Selgenich with a silent nudge. Yeah.

49:14BubblemanSo you just can't make that. It's so neat to hear the true story and realize how absurd and ridiculous the rumors were.

49:23Collin PalmerSo I just are. So Sam, you were also Jingles on the forums then.

49:29SpeakerNo, I didn't call myself Jingles on any forums. No, I called myself either Sandless Grunt Band or a few times I might have said Seljnage. I don't remember anymore, to be honest.

49:46Collin PalmerYeah, got it. Yeah, I remember.

49:48SpeakerThe thing was, I wanted to separate my legal world and my real name from my counterculture world and... My belief that a lot of people know things, loose lips sink ships.

50:07BubblemanYes, or how, as the Hells Angels put it, even a fish can keep from being caught if he keeps his fucking mouth shut.

50:18Etienne FontanWord. Yeah. If we heard that rumor way back in the nineties in the Netherlands, you know, about Sam, because yeah, everybody, no one understood how somebody could, could, you know, have an import export license and do all the things that you were doing. It's just nobody had the cojones to just do it and navigate those waters. And I mean, that's part of being a pioneers, you know, people think you have to be special doing it, but you just have to do it.

50:44Etienne FontanNot that it isn't special.

50:47SpeakerYeah, we were the first licensed greenhouse research and development medical cannabis facility in the world. And that was in, I think, mid-90s that we were licensed.

51:02BubblemanThat's insane, dude. And just straight hating. And that's the craziest thing about our industry and our community.

51:08SpeakerThe trouble is when you're sitting on the top of the pyramid, people want And the easiest way is to scheme, lie, cheat, and push you off the top of the pyramid rather than do it through their own work and activities.

51:31Archive SeedsI think the assumption a lot came from the fact that, you know, Sam, you were an American in Europe getting licensed to do this. And then the technology got sold to GW, which then became the very first essentially publicly traded cannabis company. Is that correct?

51:47SpeakerWell, that was certainly part of it. They even accused me of, uh, being an owner of GW. I never owned a share of GW ever. I, uh, I did a lot of licensing with them and I received a lot of money from them, but not for selling them anything. What I did was I licensed varieties that I bred for them and they helped pay for it.

52:15Archive SeedsAnd your goal with most of that research was to produce single cannabinoid. Well, that was one of our goals. Or at least that's what's published.

52:24SpeakerYeah, we were also, we did triploid work, tetraploid work. We did, we were a research and development company for real. And we went after all the low fruit first and spent millions of dollars doing it.

52:44Archive SeedsAnd now do you think um what do you think is the the future of let's say triploids tetraploids what was the what things did you learn well because i don't think very many people are familiar or haven't done research and now you have companies selling products as if it's you know well the reason i didn't do it was because what i was looking for was

53:07SpeakerAll female, that was relatively easy. We were working with STS, maybe the first commercial use in the world in our breeding. We weren't selling all female seeds, but we were using them for breeding single cannabinoid versions, for example. And what we found was that when you have a triploid, and whether it's all female or not,

53:37SpeakerIt's not truly seedless. All triploids produce some viable dark seeds and they also even more produce little white immature nubbies. And I get kind of offended when I see people advertising triploids as truly seedless or whatever because it's not true. Look at seedless watermelons. They have very greatly reduced seeds and most of them are immature and white, but they're not seedless. There's no viable seeds in a watermelon, but in cannabis, I made 30 different triploids in the mid-90s and every single one of them set seeds when I pollinated them with diploid pollen.

54:36SpeakerAnd all of them made lots of little white nubbies. And my goal really was to be able to produce all female terploid seed that were truly seedless so that I could sell seeds to hashish farmers around the world. And because I wasn't able to do what I wanted, I just stopped the program and went on to something else. Like, as you say, single cannabinoid varieties, which we were incredibly successful at.

55:11Archive SeedsI got another question, Sam. The little, you know, white seeds that you're talking about, a diploid variety that produces that in a pollen-free environment, what do you think that's, how do you think that works?

55:23SpeakerWell, either it's not a truly pollen-free environment, or there's intersex plants in with the crop, even if it's just a couple of flowers, or there are a few varieties which they call What is it? I forget the technical term, but they claim that flowers can produce seeds without pollen. I've never seen it, but maybe it does exist.

55:55Archive SeedsI've never seen a mature seed, just like a little tiny white, I wouldn't call it an embryo, but like an unformed. Another question, have you seen varieties that produce like in a seedless environment? I've found this with a lot of land-raised varieties. They produce these little tiny black specks down at the bottom of the bract. And it's kind of like a large embryo too, but it doesn't turn into like a white embryo.

56:21Archive SeedsUh, white unformed seed. It just is like a little tiny little black speck that some varieties produce a lot of if you really, you know, break it down and look through it.

56:32SpeakerNo, I'm not familiar with that.

56:34Archive SeedsYeah.

56:37SpeakerI've seen ones too where there's like a little the calyx doesn't open so the pestle is still trapped inside and it almost looks like a cobra lily like the Picture plants from NorCal, like the way that the leaves deform around it. Have you seen that? I've seen that once or twice too, as far as a seedless, unpollinatable variety.

56:59Archive SeedsI'm not, it's kind of hard to imagine.

57:04SpeakerI need to see photographs to see if I've seen it. I have some books that were written in India and Like 1893 or somewhere around there by Major Prane. And it's called Abnormal Tetratology of Cannabis. And they show every sexual mutation I've ever seen in my entire life. And a few that I haven't seen. It's a very interesting book. People have been making simsumia for hundreds of years in places like India and in Thailand.

57:45Archive SeedsDid you guys see that? I believe it was a news article about that. I think it was the Chinese tomb where they found cannabis that was like 5,000 years old. And they kind of assumed based on their testing of the material in it and the fact that it had no seeds in the little sac, you know, the little bowl that they had it in in the tomb.

58:07Archive SeedsThey kind of assumed that they knew what was up with drug cannabis.

58:12SpeakerThey tested the DNA and they found it had much more of the THC synthase than any other cannabinoid synthase. So that's why they presumed it was drug variety. And yeah, they were probably right. The oldest seeds I have in my possession are 2,700 years old from the Physeric tomb, which is the same people, but just in a different part in the Pamirs. It's 2,700 years old, and they were given to me by the Hermitage Museum, who has all of the things found at the Pezarek Tomb by, I can't remember the name of the archaeologist now, but...

59:02SpeakerThey gave me eight of the seeds that were found in a little leather pouch in the grave. And I've also got a bunch of other seeds that have come from like Redding ponds that are 1,000 years old or 1,200 years old or 500 years old from all different places in Europe. And I've grown them all. No, I'm joking that none of them would grow.

59:28Archive SeedsYou don't think there's any way with, you know, a tissue culture lab to extract something that could grow?

59:35SpeakerNo, these things are dried out to their core.

59:40Archive SeedsAnd what do you think would be the maximum amount of time you could pull a live, let's call it germplasm, from an old seed?

59:48SpeakerIf it was frozen while it was still viable, probably for a very long time. But unless it's been frozen, That entire straight time, I have no idea, but I mean, yeah, I honestly don't know. I know I have seeds which are 70 years old, I mean, excuse me, been frozen for 30 years and they're still totally viable. And I have pollen which I've had frozen for 30, 34 years.

1:00:25SpeakerAnd it's still totally viable.

1:00:28Etienne FontanDoes the seed oil just dry up and therefore the seed dies? What causes that necrosis?

1:00:35SpeakerWell, if it's not frozen, yeah, in effect, what it does is it just sooner or later it gets bone dry and the DNA is probably destroyed. Whereas if it's frozen, yeah, it's Make your last. I don't know how much longer than 35 years because I don't have the...

1:01:01BubblemanSo maybe there's seeds in a pouch on a dude right now who's like frozen with his woolly mammoth under the ice and it's like the OG landrace cultivar that we're going to get back. It would be pretty cool to see a cannabis plant from like one or two or three thousand years ago.

1:01:20SpeakerI honestly don't care how old it is except out of curiosity. What I'm interested in is the terpene content, cannabinoid content, and the smokability organoleptic results.

1:01:38BubblemanWell, that's what the age sort of hints at. Sorry, Fletch, one second. The age hints that you would have a unique cannabinoid and terpene profile. At least you would have the one that was chosen by someone from thousands of years ago. That would be my, the only reason I would care about the age would connect right back to what is it? What are the gene synthases that are present and turned on?

1:01:59SpeakerWell, that's why Rob and I were working with Bylos. We were trying to study the evolution of cannabis and we submitted, you know, several hundred land races so that we could get full DNA reads, which we didn't get. And what our hope was that we could say this came from this, this came from this. So, you know, all the stuff in the new Americas came from Africa or India.

1:02:29SpeakerAnd all the stuff in Africa came from India. All the stuff in India came from either China or the Far East or whatever. But we were unable to finish the project because silos sort of misled us to get what they wanted.

1:02:51Archive SeedsI have a question, Sam. What percentage of the genetic diversity in drug cannabis that let's say existed before prohibition do you think still exists today?

1:03:04SpeakerI think it's probably all there, but it's not the same because when you go to a country like Jamaica or you go to a country like Morocco, it's even worse. There's so much pollen in the air every year. That to preserve a land race in Morocco is all but impossible because it's going to become pollinated by foreign genes which were imported to help the Moroccan farmer. So I would say that's true in most countries that have easy access by tourists.

1:03:48SpeakerThey, for example, in Thailand, they're growing fat leaf indicas. Even in Afghanistan, people have taken a few Colombians and things like that. So, yeah, whether or not they're in their same form with the same gene frequency, I have my doubts. But, yeah, they're probably still there. It's just, You know, the gene pool is scrambled in mostly the original land race countries nowadays.

1:04:25Archive SeedsNow, do you think that if you saw sample flower that's of, let's say, modern cannabis varieties that have unique terpene expressions, do you feel like you'd be able to identify kind of what land races may attribute, maybe attribute some of these terpenes

1:04:44SpeakerNo, we never truly got enough information from that. I mean, you can tell widely from narrow leaf varieties because they do have a different basic terpene profile. But nowadays, I'd say the vast majority of cannabis grown in the West is, in fact, multipoly hybrids. And yeah. How the hell can you tell what's what?

1:05:16Archive SeedsOnly if there was maybe a unique expression that was familiar to the, you know, let's, let's say it's a Colombian hybrid today. And then someone goes through the, through the seed lots, find something that's Colombian dominant, but doesn't know that it's Colombian. And then, you know, someone that maybe has experience like yourself with the varieties 40 years ago or 50 years ago, maybe able to identify some sort of, because just in my experience breeding, I'm able to tell, you know, parents,

1:05:45SpeakerFor example, the most common terpene in cannabis is myrcene, which is found in one hell of a lot of the cannabis varieties worldwide.

1:06:02SpeakerUnderstood.

1:06:03Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd as a precursor to other terpenes and, and maybe where the secret is, is that the next level of detail, like with these, these, these volatile sulfur compounds might be maybe just at the right level of detail where you can see that differentiation, not necessarily just terpene profiles.

1:06:24SpeakerYeah.

1:06:25Archive SeedsGo ahead. Sorry.

1:06:28SpeakerOne, one thing I always wonder about the files and other Compounds which are volatile and we never tested because we tested terpenes and we found ones which not only modulated cannabis, but a handful that potentiated cannabis. With vials, we don't know if they modulate or if they potentiate. I'm sure that the facts will come out shortly, but nobody really knows this yet.

1:07:02BubblemanWell, I know this much. They make my eyebrows go up and that's a red flag right there, dude.

1:07:08Archive SeedsI think, Mark, with the I think what will be important when that research is done is to do it with really fresh cannabis, because, you know, one thing that I think we all can all agree today is that One thing that was different with the traditional market when there was a lack of supply in the market was that everybody got fresh cannabis. The product, as soon as it got trimmed up, it went to a bag and got distributed and everybody was smoking weed that was under five days old, typically from getting out of the dry room.

1:07:37Archive SeedsAnd nowadays you'd be lucky to get anything on most shelves that's under a month or that's under a month old. You'd be lucky to get something that's actually fresh. And I think there's a huge difference Between the terpene profile is something that's very fresh and the terpene profile is something that's a month old.

1:07:57SpeakerFiles are extremely volatile. Right. I mean, really extremely volatile. Volatile. So, yeah, that could certainly be true. But... One thing that we're sure of is that some terpenes have the ability to modulate and some terpenes have the ability to potentiate. And yeah, that was my focus at the time. I kind of knew there were styles, but I had no way to test for them and we weren't searching them at all.

1:08:37Archive SeedsWell, now that we're in the terpene realm and thials, I think what a lot of people agree is that the skunk, the real roadkill skunk odor is probably one of the most potentiating terpene profiles out there. Most people that like Chemdog, Diesels.

1:08:54SpeakerWell, I wouldn't agree with that because Okay, I bred the original skunk number one. It definitely did have files and it was very, very skunky smelling. It would permeate a Ziploc in your bag and permeate the entire room. But I bred varieties that away from the skunky smell because I found the sweeter ones of skunk number one were in fact A higher high and a more clear high.

1:09:31SpeakerAnd I preferred it. So that's why I did what I did. And maybe the file ones were a tiny, maybe a tiny bit stronger or more couch lock, but they weren't significantly stronger. And the sweeter ones, I preferred the high, uh, Absolutely. I mean, but then I don't like pouch lock, narcotic, physical weed. I like clear up speedy weed that you can smoke all day and do your work.

1:10:08Archive SeedsI think that's why people do like the, you know, the skunky stuff. And it may also be like a traditional association with high quality cannabis in America that also, you know,

1:10:21Dr Mark ScialdoneGrateful Dead concerts.

1:10:22Archive SeedsPeople have a bias towards that.

1:10:24Dr Mark ScialdoneYou go to a Grateful Dead concert in the late 70s or early 80s and you smelt weed like you had never smelt before. And I'm telling you, it's because that concert phenomena of deadheads crossing the country from NorCal and Oregon brought dank weed out to us East Coast kids.

1:10:46SpeakerAnd that's what I said.

1:10:47Dr Mark ScialdoneI want to smoke weed that I smell at the Grateful Dead concert.

1:10:51SpeakerI bred skunk in the mid-70s and... It quickly got distributed worldwide. And we weren't able to advertise seeds legally at that time. So it was just like weed itself. I would sell the seeds to friends who would sell them to friends who would sell them to friends. But it's a small world out there.

1:11:18BubblemanDude, now that we've heard the Static Tech origin story, what about the How I Bred Skunk No. 1 origin story?

1:11:26SpeakerWell, I think it's been in print many times, but I basically had an Afghan, which I hit times a Colombian, And I was doing this with many Afghan times sativa hybrids. What I was trying to do was, at the time, my company, Sacred Seeds, which we were selling seeds, I really wanted to sell seeds which were open pollinated. So I didn't want to sell people varieties where they would have to come back to me and get seeds every year.

1:12:05SpeakerI wanted seeds which they could just make the seeds themselves with the seeds I sold them. I was thinking I was selling them to individuals and not other seed companies because there were no other seed companies and I was it. What I found out was that skunk number one, okay, so what I bred was Afghan times Colombian. And then I found that very late maturing. So I hit it times in early Acapulco goals and that speeded it up quite a bit.

1:12:47SpeakerAnd then I bred it to itself and I grew the F2 seeds. What I found was that it was still basically exactly the same. In other words, instead of segregating into red, white, and pink, it stayed pink, if you can get my analogy. And so that's what I wanted because I didn't want people to have to come and buy my seeds every year. What I was trying to do was Three people from criminal violent cartels so that they could make their own cannabis whenever they wanted to from their own seeds.

1:13:33BubblemanThat's awesome.

1:13:35Archive SeedsNow, Sam, did your original skunk before you bred out the skunk number one, did it smell, did your roadkill skunk pheno from your skunk number one seeds, did it smell like roadkill up close or did it have a more complex nose when you got up close to it?

1:13:54SpeakerNo, when you got up close or anywhere in the room, it smelled like a dead skunk.

1:14:01Archive SeedsAnd now do you think people will be able to recreate that?

1:14:05SpeakerEvery single plant. But what I did was I found the ones that were the least roadkill skunky and through 10 years of breeding those lines, I was able to achieve plants that really didn't smell skunky anymore. They were much sweeter and I preferred the high much, much better.

1:14:32Archive SeedsAnd that resultant skunk number one is the skunk number one that has basically been used everywhere in Amsterdam. Is that correct?

1:14:42SpeakerProbably. When I did the first 10 years of breeding with skunk number one, I did it in California. Then I moved to the Netherlands and I did a feno hunt with... 20,000 seeds of skunk number one. And I picked up the 10 best girls and the 10 best boys with help from my colleagues. And we then the next year crossed those 10 boys times those 10 girls.

1:15:16SpeakerSo we had another 100 population, 100 varieties that we were testing. And we grew 200 of each of those. And we found out exactly which ones, which male and which female were the best for any particular goal that we were looking for, which was the biggest buds, the easiest to clone, the highest high, the strongest, the most resident, et cetera, et cetera.

1:15:49Archive SeedsAnd what year was it that you did that initial 10 and 10 selection?

1:15:53Speaker88.

1:15:54Archive SeedsGot it. So that would probably line up with the majority of Amsterdam. The source being of their skunk number one is likely from those earlier batches.

1:16:05SpeakerI sold a few that were skunky, but I'd say 99% of what I sold was a sweeter version of skunk. Do you have any of the open pollinated, sorry to cut off, but do you have any of the open pollinated versions hiding away? What's that now? Do you have any of the open pollinated seeds somewhere?

1:16:30SpeakerThe open pollinated ones, but mine were produced from clones here in Amsterdam. No, you were saying that when you started the project, it was an open colony. Oh, yeah, but that was in California, yes. Yeah, do you have any of those? In the 20,000 seed grow that I did. Gotcha. For two years in a row. Well, the first year, I put in almost every different kind of skunk seed I ever had because I was trying to find the very best ones that I liked the most.

1:17:06SpeakerAnd then after I did that, a few years later, I used... I transformed the males that were my favorite, especially my three favorite males of Skunk Number One, and I transformed them to female. So it's not using SDS, it's using epiphone. I forget the exact word. It's an ethylene-based compound. And what that does is it transforms it to a female. So you can then either organoleptically or with gas chromatography or with FID, you can see exactly what terpenes are available and what...

1:17:58SpeakerThe cannabinoid profiles are. And that lets you know really easily what your male has been donating. And I was surprised my males, my favorite male was so freaking sweet. It was unbelievable.

1:18:19Archive SeedsYeah, because one thing I've noticed, you know, in getting seeds from Amsterdam in the, you know, early 2000s, 2001, 2002, 2003, the, you know, most everything was skunk number one hybrids. And I got lots of really good dry sift and washing strains, but there was not anything that had the skunk number one that everybody was using, at least there definitely wasn't Skunk, skunk. And then, you know, skunky clone only varieties that we have in America.

1:18:50Archive SeedsYou know, I've never really seen probably the real skunk clone, whether it existed from seeds that came from you back in the 80s prior to your breeding event or were otherwise created in America. But I think there's a lot of people still looking for that in America. And I just don't think it's still out there. I don't think the material to make it is even necessarily out there.

1:19:16SpeakerI hate to say it, but I think a lot of people It's a case of not that it's better, it's they can't get it so they want it with roadkill skunk. That's right. But I can't speak for everybody because there are lots of people who like couch lock type weed. And skunk number one, when I first read it, it was much more couch lock. But That's not my goal.

1:19:52SpeakerI shared what I liked with the world and I bred what I liked.

1:19:59Archive SeedsI like skunky varieties, but I like them when the bag of it stinks up the whole car and everything. But when you get up close, it has a much more complex aroma. I just call that dank. I don't really call it skunk because I think skunk is associated with a specific smell.

1:20:14SpeakerAlso, you got to remember that in the Mid-70s, people were growing skunk in Santa Cruz, California. And their neighbors were reporting it because if they had a little tiny few plants in the backyard, you could smell it for, you know, a couple blocks away. And that caused a lot of problems for a lot of people. So the sweeter ones, it was much easier to grow and get away with it.

1:20:45SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

1:21:01BubblemanWhen it came back to me and that would have been like late 90s, early 2000s was the Rene. And the Rene was just also like what Fletch just said. It was just dank. And I wish we had Nick on here to talk about thiols because he's done such great work with them. To me, that's what that was more so than a particular whatever N-butane thiol one. I think there's three that make up the smell of a skunk's liquid in the pouch there.

1:21:30BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

1:21:53BubblemanLiterally arrested. My one buddy, Lincoln, on his bicycle riding downtown past a cop car. They smelt it, turned around, caught him, opened his bag, got him with like a QP. Other friends getting kicked out of hotels, getting busted at roadblocks. It was literally nightmare weed. This thing that you loved so much because it was so rank and dank. Also just happened to be the thing that during Prohibition was really not a good vibe at all.

1:22:20BubblemanIt was really like a giant neon arrow that you just had above your head everywhere you went.

1:22:29SpeakerThe original haze was also like that.

1:22:32BubblemanIt was.

1:22:33SpeakerA lot of the original hazes, if you had them in a single Ziploc in your pocket, like a Z or a quarter of a Z or a half of a Z, Yeah, I mean, it was like a loudspeaker going, I've got great canvas.

1:22:50Collin PalmerSo this is a catalog from 94. And I collect a lot of this stuff. And I do this because of the actual copy here. And the Hindu Kush is really familiar. We can all agree we've seen this plant before in many different outcrosses.

1:23:07SpeakerThat's my Hindu Kush.

1:23:10Collin PalmerAwesome. So, but when I come over to the Shiva Skunk, it starts to get really familiar as well. And then the language in here says really clearly, works superbly indoors as well as in greenhouse. Taste and high are similar to Skunk One, a rich, sweet, punji, but with more resin and better yield. So that's 94, right? So sweet is being described Skunk One. They're describing Skunk One as sweet in 94.

1:23:39SpeakerNow, if you get this... It really was that way after about 1988 or 1990 at the latest. All the seeds I were selling were the sweet version. I quit selling and quit making skunky skunk number one.

1:23:56Collin PalmerSo, however, the scentsy skunk here is directly talks about how it's pungent and has more of a skunky and donkey dick bugs.

1:24:08SpeakerSo that's, that's also taken from my, my skunk number one description.

1:24:15Collin PalmerSo there's skunk one here, there's Shiva or skunk Kush right here, a hybrid between the best Hindu Kush and the famous.

1:24:22SpeakerThat was my hybrid.

1:24:24Collin PalmerOkay. So, so, you know, and then we have Silver Pearl who won High Times 94 Cannabis Cup.

1:24:32SpeakerThat was Robert Clark's.

1:24:36Collin PalmerSo this is Rob's cross. Okay. So yeah, because on the front it has Northern Lights Five Haze as mostly sativa winner, Hawaiian Indica as the indica winner, and the Silver Pearl Indica Sativa category. But I like these descriptions. And even if you wrote them, Sam, to me, it's helpful. Because we just have so much mystery behind a lot of the stuff we grow and looking backwards is helpful for me.

1:25:08Collin PalmerI also don't know if you're familiar with these catalogs, Sam, maybe you know something more about them than I do. I've been collecting them for a few years now, finding them online and their moon calendar.

1:25:21BubblemanHold it up again, Colin.

1:25:22Collin PalmerYeah, so it's a moon calendar. Yeah, Cincinnati Cultivators calendar. This is an 82. I've got a 1979 one right here, which I think is one of the cooler ones out of them. Just has a lot of just amazing, makes you feel good. A simpler time.

1:25:42BubblemanYeah. Bringing you back. If I could just go back. I'm just blown away at how close the skunk number one, Amsterdam, like static tech, like it all just came to fruition. Like imagine all of that unfolding for Sam in like this short period of time. Like that is, that's unbelievable, dude. I got to thank you for sharing those stories today. I know some of them have been said before.

1:26:09SpeakerI used to think of my house pretty bad when I would have... Used to? Sweet version of skunk number one and I would you know grind up a few hundred grams every day just to make dry sift in my living room and uh yeah it uh pretty much stunk up the house in a sweet way but uh it uh yeah it wasn't easy to conceal and I didn't even try since uh All the people above me were students in where my apartment was, and I just let it all hang out.

1:26:48Bryan Best Friend FarmsI've got a skunk story for Sam. It's a, there's a 1987 skunk one, excuse me, an 87 skunk one that runs around Maine that a friend of mine actually found when he helped clean up a grow house back in the day. And I think it was into the nineties, but he was like a habitat for humanity or something up near Bangor, Northern Maine. And he found a nutrient bucket was the story, I guess, and opened it up because it was light.

1:27:15Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd there was a brown bag with a Ziploc bag. And on the Ziploc, it said 1987 skunk number one. And he's up here with it. It's definitely really raunchy. He's holding on to it super tight.

1:27:28SpeakerYeah, well, that was part of my California work. And like I said, every single plant I grew the first couple of years was skunky until I Right away from it for about 10 years.

1:27:42Collin PalmerCool. So Sam, what about the Shiva Shanti work? Like how did the garlic that came out of all of that? Do you have any indication of what line that is?

1:27:53SpeakerNo, Shiva Shanti was was not my work. And I thought it was done by Ben, but or his crew. I'm not 100% sure.

1:28:07BubblemanWeren't those his daughters? Aren't his daughters named Shiva and Shanti?

1:28:13SpeakerI believe so.

1:28:14BubblemanYeah, he's got twin daughters. I think that's something they did.

1:28:17Collin PalmerSome very garlicky, skunky varietals that we found in that, or phenos, I should say, that line.

1:28:25SpeakerI mean, in the beginning, almost everybody wanted to get skunk number one seeds because they were so consistent in true breeding that And the other advantage was, like Original Haze, almost everything that was good that you combined with it, the progeny came out better than either parent.

1:28:49Collin PalmerIt says, Ray, I mean, these are probably your words then. Original and Indica Sativa Hybrid Skunk One is now one of the most consistently performing true high breeding strains in the world. Skunk One produces large buds with very high calyx to leaf ratio, an excellent choice for greenhouse.

1:29:04SpeakerThose are absolutely my words.

1:29:06Archive SeedsNice. The every skunk number one, which is after the breeding event, everything from Amsterdam, I've always grown, always had better dry sift resin than nearly anything else.

1:29:21SpeakerSkunk number one is very good, but there are other varieties that match it. And for example, Lee Stack. Yeah, Slee Stack. I was going to say, not only that, but I never got the surfing content of Slee Stack. But we would sit here and smoke that stuff all day long. And as long as you smoked it, you got higher and higher each time. And what I would do is at night when I wanted to go to sleep, I would smoke a joint of like Hindu Kush or something like that to knock me out.

1:30:03SpeakerBut I can remember many mornings staying up till three, four o'clock in the mornings smoking Sleestack with Rob and yeah, it was very nice. Sleestack we got from DNA.

1:30:18Archive SeedsRight, that's Schramm crossed with, what was the other parent? I can't remember what the other parent was. I actually have a jar of a Schramm cross right in front of me.

1:30:30Collin PalmerNice.

1:30:33Etienne FontanWell, bringing it back to that hydroponics discussion, I mean, pardon me, aeroponics and aquaponics. I know that potent ponics came on specifically around the aquaponics discussion. And I just kind of had a question because I used to see articles very rarely specific around aquaponics, etc., So you probably sparked some curiosity on here this morning with people watching. So if somebody wanted to get into aquaponics, and then we'll go into aeroponics, but I want to get to the aquaponics.

1:31:12Etienne FontanHow would one start or get into that? What would you recommend, Potent?

1:31:20SpeakerSo the easiest way, especially for someone that's really seasoned in soil, would be to just do the method that I've really come to love called dual root zone planting with pots and a flood and drain bed. And Dutch was talking about this a little bit earlier, but basically having your five gallon or four gallon pot with a screen bottom at the bottom so that the water can flow through, fill up the bottom half with lava rock or some other You know, non-PH media, lava rocks the best in my opinion because you release silica into the water over time as the, you know, acidic water from the fish waste starts to break it down.

1:31:55SpeakerAnd it also has a lot of area for microbes to live. And then put a layer of burlap or other root permeable cloth and then above that put your soil. You know, good living soil on there because then you can supplement your plants, you know, in the top half of your soil. If you need to, you know, you can dose that with whatever organic or non-organic nutrient that you want to and then run the fish waste for the bottom half of it.

1:32:19SpeakerSo you're flooding and draining just that bottom half The other cool thing about it is it works similarly to aeroponics when you do that because you're getting that gas exchange when the water goes up, it forces that air up through the soil and acts like a diaphragm. So you're getting this super high gas exchange in that soil layer. So your fungi grow really fast, your microbes grow really fast in that soil layer, and you're getting fresh air down into that lower half of the root zone so you're not having pythium and root rot issues.

1:32:45SpeakerBut microbiota diversity is the key to it. Especially, you know, incorporating things like liquid IMO or IMOs from Korean natural farming really dramatically improves mineralization of fish waste. It's one of the things that I really focused on, especially with people like Chris Trump and Matt Powers and some of the other guys out there that are doing a lot of education on that. I've started incorporating and have been incorporating all those methods.

1:33:07SpeakerLactobacillus is great for eliminating E. coli in systems in aquaponics. So if you test hot for E. coli in like a lettuce system, we've had really good luck eliminating that with just lactobacillus alone without having to Thank you for joining us today.

1:33:44SpeakerYou can easily adapt that on a per strain basis in a large facility and not have to work cultivar basis rather and not have to worry about, you know, oh, well, this one's not optimal conditions and this one's an optimal conditions and or even have different types of plants even, you know, in the same facility and not have to worry about it. But yeah, for the home scale, just a flood and drain bed with a pot, a screen bottom pot, bottom half of it, lava rock, top half of it, soil, you know, just keep the soil on the top part moist but not damp and you'll do well.

1:34:14SpeakerWhen you started doing this, there was no hemp latent viroid going around, was there? So you had mentioned that earlier. So I've done a lot of hep late viroid testing in aquaponic systems, and we've never had, at least in any of the data that I have, anything spread. I have had lettuce chlorosis virus spread from lettuce facilities that had lettuce and cannabis growing, and that absolutely will jump through the water.

1:34:40SpeakerBut we've never, in any of my testing, ever seen HLVD spread aquatically. Do you test each seed or clone that you're growing? In the aquaponics or hydroponics before you put it in the system. So usually we'll pop the moms and kind of and do a quick phenohunt with that and in soil usually. And then we'll transfer them to the aquaponics system once we've narrowed it down to a couple of cuts.

1:35:07SpeakerAnd then we test those before we put them in. Yes. They are tested for hemp latent thyroid. Yep. Yeah. The facility that we're setting up right now. Yeah. Well, if you test them before you use them, you're not going to spread it. That's for damn sure. Sure. We've never had any other, even stuff that I took over, did consulting for, we have not had any kind of, you know, outbreak of any of the, we've had one or two plants have it, but have, you know, the rest of the plants not detecting.

1:35:35SpeakerIt's not only hemp late and viroid or lettuce cirrhosis. I found 27 different Thank you for joining us.

1:36:07Collin PalmerI know. So medicinal genomics has really good assays that are built around the cannabis plant itself, not ported in from other industry. Excuse me. So Those that are out there looking for great testing that's accurate. I think Kevin really has a good understanding of the pressure testing that can be done to get high CTS and the false negatives and false positives that can happen. So I think just be careful who you choose because a lot of these people are opportunistic and they're coming from other industry because that industry is not working out for them.

1:36:44SpeakerAnd the other thing is that, uh, Sometimes you find it only in the roots or the stems or the flowers or the leaves. So you need to do a fairly thorough examination. And a few times I've had people who got negative results and then it popped up later and it was an indoor grow. So it wasn't being spread by insects. It was in there, but not discovered.

1:37:16SpeakerWe had Kevin on my show last week and he was talking about how going forward you really should be doing HLV testing on on flowered planets and that in vintage a lot of them are showing false negative. I think he talked about that on on past church as well but I really took that away as like hey that should be the standard protocol from now on as far as I'm concerned for anything that I'm doing because I didn't know that until he talked about that so.

1:37:40Collin PalmerYeah, it's also found in dried flower too for like over six weeks. So those plants that are going to market can also have it. And then you touch it, you roll a joint with it, you go to your garden, you pass it there too. So I'm trying to like freak everybody out that it's, you know, this is the end of the world.

1:38:00BubblemanLabs, labs probably love this shit. This is probably like a formulated lab creation. This is the Wuhan cannabis plant.

1:38:07Collin PalmerYeah, I think it should be said, like, you know, you got to be really, it's why I'm bringing up the CTs. Like, I think Kevin did a really good job of explaining that when we had him on where I gave him a subset of samples, like over 35 different samples. And we went to the edge of the testing, you know, edge of the earth of testing as far as you could go to push the sensitivity of it.

1:38:33Collin PalmerAnd You just have to be really careful because as he said on the show, you're going to be throwing plants out that may not be actually sick and they're just testing positive for that moment in their life cycle based on the testing assay, not based on the actual thyroid that's present. So you have to be really careful and you just have to be diligent and continue to test, as Sam said, in all the different areas.

1:38:59Collin PalmerIt's also found in water, your roots, your mediums. So again, I don't want to freak everybody out because I've definitely been spent a year straight freaked out, to be honest, everybody like every day talking to Kevin be like, all right, man, so what do they say? I could bring up spreadsheets and show you guys like. Months of work looking at plants and clones and trying to figure out how to eradicate it from the room because, you know, I brought one clone in, right?

1:39:33SpeakerYou're absolutely correct, Colin. And at first people thought it was spread by insects from plant to plant or direct touch or tools or whatever. But we all now know that It can be spread by seeds. It can be spread by pollen. I mean, it's a bitch.

1:39:57Collin PalmerYeah, and, you know, it's... It's important to understand that not all plants, like I had a plant in my collection that just didn't show any signs of it. I mean, all the way through flower, you would never, you wouldn't know at all, even if you harvested the plant and used it for whatever processing or whatever you wanted to do with it until you tested it. So that's the other aspect that was really revealing as well.

1:40:23Collin PalmerBecause I had a case of it where it was like, I sent him a photo and he was like, holy crap, I've never seen that before. It was years ago. And I said, you need to revive it. It looks like camouflage.

1:40:33SpeakerYeah, it's a lot like intersex plants. You know, intersex plants don't always express their intersex. If they're genetically based, Which they all are. There seems to be two basic types. One that requires environmental stress of some sort to express the intersex. But there's other varieties which they're intersex every single time without any environmental stress. And ideally, just like HLVD, you want to get rid of them and put them out of the gene pool.

1:41:17Collin PalmerYeah, so I think I brought this up because I think this is a good just like infographic that shows how it happens and where it can happen and how it can go undetected until it's completely detectable all of a sudden and you're wondering where it came from. So I think it is important. To understand this, and this is a good free resource for everyone to go look on medicinalengomics.com.

1:41:46Collin PalmerAnd I did leafhopper studies over a summer that also revealed that they can spread it too. No surprise there, but at least we have a controlled study that proves that it does happen.

1:42:04Collin PalmerBut this is a really just a, this is a free page on medicinalgenomics.com and there's a checklist that you can download. There's some great images here that kind of show A little bit about what it could look like, especially in the root zone. This is very telling. A lot of times you think you have Pythium or Fusarium or some version of that, or maybe the blend. And a lot of times it's a viride.

1:42:33SpeakerEven before people knew about hemp latent viride, it had been found in hops. Maybe a decade before that when Dark Heart found it and published about it. But I was aware of it being in hops, but I was not aware of it being in cannabis until it was tested and revealed.

1:43:04BubblemanWhat year did you write the book, Sam, The Hemp and Pest Disease? 2000, okay.

1:43:11Collin PalmerSo for like for Fletcher, for you, man, I think this is this is a key takeaway for breeding is like those plants that do show traits that are resistant are very important to our future.

1:43:22SpeakerAnd I think that's one call out that I think I guess the question is, can we force them to get it if they are resistant? Because, you know, there's there's a difference between resistant and truly, truly unable to Yeah, I mean, I'm not willing to sacrifice my garden to find out.

1:44:06Collin PalmerWell, no, that's I think I think the best way to do it would be like send your samples to Kev and Kevin can do it.

1:44:12Archive SeedsAnd he's he because I mean, honestly, I'm saying I won't know resistance if I don't have hop latent throughout my mother plants. Right. So how am I going to test resistance if I'm my goal with my garden is to maintain cleanliness?

1:44:26Collin PalmerRight. Well, my thought was you send it out, let them let him infect it. Oh, yeah, sure. Right. Yeah. And let him do the study and then be like, hey, look, this didn't hit.

1:44:36SpeakerGood idea, Colin. In a long time, people were using seeds thinking they were safe, but it's not. Yeah, send it to Kev. Let him infect it.

1:44:47Collin PalmerYeah, let him do it. He loves it. I mean, I love that he loves it. I know.

1:44:51BubblemanThis is crazy. I don't blame Fletch. I wouldn't fucking bring it to your garden ever.

1:44:56Archive SeedsIt's like people ask me PM resistance of my varieties or spider mite resistance of varieties. I don't have those pests in my garden. They don't even exist. I don't even have to preventively. I don't use sulfur compounds. I don't use any of that because there's no PM. The PM doesn't exist. And we're in a climate that it's not outside and it's not coming in and we don't bring air in from outside.

1:45:20Archive SeedsSo it's just one of those things where it's like, I'd like to know, but I don't want to find out at my expense.

1:45:28SpeakerI don't know. Sorry, pop in. Before we get too far off that, Sam. So I just had to ask, you said the PM selecting for resistance or immunity to PM. And I think that kind of a segue into the question I wanted to ask about, you know, the last 15, 20 years or so. All of those selections being made indoors where there's no necessity to select for PM or maybe pest pressure resistance or susceptibility to some of these other things.

1:45:59SpeakerSo we haven't selected for anything but bag appeal and terpene profile maybe to a lesser extent over the last, you know, Dispensary era. So is it possible to now take the genetics that we are working with and select or incorporate some of the hoplite and resistance into that or find it in there? Or have we selected it completely out and now we're going to have to backtrack 20 years of genetics to start from scratch for better or worse term?

1:46:27SpeakerWithout finding the genes that are responsible for resistance, that's the only way you're going to really help the industry. If they exist.

1:46:38Collin PalmerYeah, I was going to say that that's one thing I think the genetic marker, the world of, you know, call it geneticists, I think the work that they could contribute. When we had the gentleman on there with CRISPR, I was thinking a lot about that, where The best thing I feel like those individuals can do in their contribution to all this is use their force for good in a way that allows us to better understand the path forward to get to these traits.

1:47:07Collin PalmerBecause to your point, we've all spent so much time looking at the surface, what lives there and breathes there, I think, in terms of that and then how that is marketed. And we talked about that in an episode. So I think there's an inherent need for that, as Sam said, and I feel... You know, there's a real opportunity for someone that understands this on that level to really contribute to the work that all of us have been doing, you know, because we, you know, I think everyone has a limit to the work they do.

1:47:41Collin PalmerAnd then there's others that have to continue that work. And that was that's what makes teams, right? It's what makes great teams where different disciplines come together.

1:47:52SpeakerSo research and development is bloody expensive. And there's little direct profit. I did it because I had a seed company to support the work because research development does not in the immediate here and now pay for itself.

1:48:15BubblemanBut isn't that also why you would like do, you know, take GW's money to do that work? Like it allowed you to do more research and development.

1:48:24SpeakerYes, except for when I met GW, I already had THC only varieties, CBD. Well, there is no true CBD only variety because the CBD synthase produces 20, 25% of the CBD as THC. So, uh, but, uh, yeah, uh, They did pay for a lot of work because I gave them an agreement to license the varieties for single cannabinoids, whether it was CBC, CBG, THCV, CBDV, et cetera, et cetera, to GW.

1:49:10SpeakerRight. Go ahead.

1:49:13Archive SeedsIt's really expensive just to grow plants out and look through, much less all the costs of Actual doing, you know, scientific work in terms of in a lab and getting all your tests done. And that's simply why the seed market is what it is today is no one can really afford to do it.

1:49:30SpeakerYou know, I mean, there's that is beginning to change. There are people who are trying to do things in the proper way now.

1:49:44Collin PalmerYeah, I think that's part of why I keep pushing Kev's work so hard. I know a lot of people. I know there's people out there that don't agree with what Kevin and his team are doing. But you have to understand that when you start pushing limits on things, you can't make everybody happy. And it's much like music to me where you just got to do what's important.

1:49:59Collin PalmerAnd those that respond well are going to come and they're going to they're going to feel that energy and they're going to be with that energy.

1:50:06BubblemanWell, look at the energy that came at Sam for the years of him doing this work. Oh, he's doing this and he's doing that and he's with the CIA and he founded GW Pharmaceutical. He's trying to keep everyone else out of the game. In the meantime, the guy's like the most honest to goodness, like just cannabis lover of anyone I've ever met. He's just like, from the first day I met him, he said, I don't care who profits off of it.

1:50:30BubblemanI'm fighting for access to every single person who wants to get high. That's what I'm fighting for. And I don't care who profits off of it. But in the meantime, the rumors that get started are literally the most polar opposite sociopathic insanity that you could ever imagine. I feel blessed to be able to sit around with him and his wife and literally laugh just at how wrong people have gotten it.

1:50:56BubblemanBut it's that exact thing you're talking, Colin, when you start doing this work and Everyone's going to have an opinion on it.

1:51:03SpeakerYou've got to remember, Marcus, the rumors were really started by Neville. And he was angry because he had promised me if I would sell him all my varieties, he would not reproduce them pure himself. He would get them from me. But within a year or two, he broke his promise and did whatever he wanted. I was bitching about him on the web that he was a crook, he was a liar, he was a thief.

1:51:30SpeakerAnd so he fought back. And the way he fought back was to accuse me of being behind Green Merchant and all this other crap, which it later showed out that it was somebody from Neville's team Who was transshipping seeds. So Neville would send them to New Orleans. Ray Cago would get them and redistribute them. But everybody refused to believe that it was Ray Cago. But now what happened was Todd McCormick got the court transcripts.

1:52:15SpeakerAnd in it, Ray Cago lays out exactly what he did.

1:52:20BubblemanHoly shit, eh? The birth of the seedy industry. Like, literally, like, the birth of it starts out with this, like, gnarly fracture.

1:52:31Archive SeedsThat's pretty crazy, dude. Oh, I think one thing we have to keep in mind, Colin, like, with a lot of this stuff, let's say, like, I only know one plant in my collection that has PM resistance, and that's the purple indica. But I don't want to put purple indica onto every other plant I got just to get PM resistance. And I think what we're finding is like with a lot of these things that these sophisticated breeding operations could accomplish are only to accomplish things that really benefit the mega farms the most, right?

1:53:00Archive SeedsFor example, triploid technology so they don't get pollinated from neighbors or, you know, no PM because these big facilities can't keep their fungus load under dealt with. And what we're finding is like in places like California and Canada, Most of those businesses don't exist after legalization because the volume that they're trying to sell is basically getting like their business model isn't working. That's why all these big corporations keep going to states that either have limited license availability or where they can like take advantage of a medical market where they're selling to the government or whatever it is.

1:53:41Archive SeedsThey keep abandoning every state where they have to compete with the small market.

1:53:46SpeakerI'm pretty sure that to get through mildew resistance, you probably have to have a gene in both mother and the father because otherwise it's going to have other genes besides just the resistance gene.

1:54:07Archive SeedsYeah, you'd have to breed a lot.

1:54:08SpeakerIt can be done.

1:54:10Archive SeedsYou'd have to breed a lot from that one plant and hopefully find resistance in two parents.

1:54:18SpeakerWhat role do you feel that microbes have a role in terms of choosing for resistance? Because I know medicinal genomics is doing a bunch of mapping out of all the microbiomes now with a lot of their newer assays, which is super cool. And we're actually working on A cool project that we haven't put out there yet with Open Cannabis, or Copy Left Cultivars, sorry.

1:54:41SpeakerAnd so what I was getting at is when I was growing up in Thailand, we were growing in the middle of the rice field, right? And we had about 140 different cultivars. I forget what the exact number was. And We had only two plants out of all of those phenohunts, out of all those different types of genetics had any kind of botrytis or powdery mildew or any kind of issues.

1:55:04SpeakerTwo plants out of like, you know, almost 20,000 plants that we grew in that phenohunt to figure out what was going to go best out there. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that we were running You know, good IMO inoculations and stuff like that. So what role do you feel like there's maybe just a couple of different microbes that if you have those, you're going to almost always have that?

1:55:24SpeakerBecause to me, that's how it's always seemed growing up. If that was addressed, we didn't have those issues. As far as I know, the powdery mildew really came from wide leaf cannabis indica varieties. They just don't have it, any resistance. And if you've got indica blood in the line, the odds are it is powdery mildew susceptible to some degree.

1:55:52Archive SeedsThe funniest thing is that plant I was talking about, that purple indica, that's the most resistant indoor and outdoor. It's like a really short, small purple afghanica type plant, interestingly enough.

1:56:05BubblemanOne that just doesn't have that gene, I guess, right?

1:56:09Archive SeedsYeah, I mean, I've seen gardens, you know, I've got, I gave it to buddies, you know, more than a decade ago in California, which if you just put plants outside in California, they're going to get it eventually, especially nowadays, especially in Humboldt and Mendo and everywhere like that. And their whole garden, you know, Blockhead and Purple Urkel and Granddaddy Perp and everything else, Sour Diesel, everything else, including the, the, um, Pumpkins and everything else all have PM or downy mildew of some sort.

1:56:38Archive SeedsAnd the purple indica didn't get it anywhere on it until the plant had been harvested. And then the bottoms were left, you know, just to keep hard to like just the bottom pieces on the stock. So it eventually got some on it.

1:56:54SpeakerSo it didn't have the resistance gene. It probably just did not have the susceptibility gene.

1:57:01Archive SeedsCorrect. That's what I was saying is that it's not it's not completely resistant, but compared to everything else around it, it had absolutely no signs of it until well after harvest.

1:57:12SpeakerBut the original haze, I never saw PM on it, even when I grew up with in the middle of 1000 Indica's that 90% of them got PM.

1:57:24Archive SeedsWhat year do you think you first saw powdery mildew? Because like when I started growing indoor, I never saw it until I got a clone from California. And most people in America never saw powdery mildew until they had received clones from somewhere.

1:57:39SpeakerAs soon as people started growing widely into cabritis from Afghanistan and Pakistan, I started seeing powdery mildew.

1:57:48Archive SeedsIn California?

1:57:50SpeakerEverywhere.

1:57:50Archive SeedsOkay. We definitely have it up here. I've grown outdoor plants in Washington and of course they never finish harvesting, but they never got PM on them.

1:58:05Collin PalmerYeah, I think, you know, out east, man, like I've always tried. I, you know, like yourself, you know, like I didn't really have much problems with any powdery mildew until the mid 2000s to late 2000s for me. It just didn't wasn't an issue. Like I had to try to set everything else.

1:58:28Collin PalmerMaybe that was just my lack of true understanding and knowledge. You know, sometimes I think back, you know, we all we're all young know-it-alls, right?

1:58:38Collin PalmerI never saw it.

1:58:39Archive SeedsI grew from seed and I didn't take in clones. And then the clones that I got, the only pest I ever got initially was thrips. And so, you know, I went for years not even knowing what PM looked like. And then I had a buddy that had bought some clones from Ed Rosenthal's. And they came from through third floor, I believe, in Oakland. And he was like, just hold on to these plants for me for like a week.

1:59:03Archive SeedsSo I put them in my bathroom. And after like four or five days, it starts seeing these little white splotches pop up. And I'm like, what is this? And then that was the first thing, you know, and it can be eradicated from your garden. People say it's systemic. It's not. It's not systemic. It's systemic because they have a hard time breaking up the life cycle of the organizm.

1:59:26Archive SeedsBut it doesn't just live in the plant forever or go through the vascular system.

1:59:32BubblemanWell, I don't know if it's the same type of PM. I'm sure it's probably not. But I will say that once the end of August hits in the lower mainland here of British Columbia, Vancouver, every maple tree literally turns white with like a powdery mildew, like the whole tree. And you can just drive down the highway and just see these like massive amounts of

1:59:55Archive Seedsof powdery mildew i mean you could probably weigh it uh in the yeah there's thousands of of known species of downy and powdery mildews and they're visually pretty much indistinguishable from each other and most of them are host specific or have a small family of plants that they

2:00:13BubblemanIn fact, attack. Yeah.

2:00:15Archive SeedsYeah. And then and then, of course, there can be ones where it goes from one plant and goes to something new, especially if that that type of plant maybe isn't from that area or it's a new variety of powdery or downy that's been introduced to an area. I mean, I don't think it's been well enough study to know, but I think those are all possible.

2:00:34SpeakerI grew many imported varieties of All of the cannabis from Afghanistan and Pakistan, a few thousand plants each year. And I would say easily 90% of the plants were susceptible to get powder and mildew.

2:00:57BubblemanWell, that's what it looks like under a microscope anyway.

2:01:01Collin PalmerSo back to someone brought up the rhizosphere and how Kevin's team is now able to catalog essentially what's there. There's a product called Terravera that we have a partner farm of ours in New York that's been using this product. And it's based on that ideology that Thank you for joining us.

2:01:55Collin PalmerI'm seeing it live and direct through test results work for them. So I do see it work from a regulated point of view. So I think there's something there. I think there's a lot more to be uncovered as to what you're targeting and how and, you know, the biochemistry behind that, you know, but I think that there's something here.

2:02:24Collin PalmerThat's yeah, that's all I got on it. But yeah, I just wanted to bring that up because it's been a huge topic, to be honest, over the past three months in cultivation for our team is, you know, what's the proper way to approach this?

2:02:38SpeakerWell, if you look at some of the outdoor markets like Oklahoma, when they first legalized, there was no limit on acreage, right? You could grow Thank you for joining us.

2:03:02SpeakerAnd you had all these people plant them out with a bunch of indoor cultivars that had no resistance, you know, in their own microbiome. And they had huge outbreaks of septoria and botrytis, but particularly septoria in that area where the people that had good diversity were not having those issues. If you actually had even just normal, fully diverse soil, you know, they were much, much more resistant.

2:03:24SpeakerThere's definitely a huge microbial component. But, you know, I can think of a couple of hundred acres that I saw that just Thank you for joining us.

2:03:46Etienne FontanAll right, let's go to the next one. We're going to go to the next one. We're going to go to the next one.

2:04:13Etienne FontanGenes are, and then, you know, we'll have some things to add to the biological protections potentially in the future. So they're working on it literally as we speak.

2:04:25Collin PalmerI know Brian, you've been working on selecting towards plants that are resistant to this type of infection.

2:04:34Bryan Best Friend FarmsYou want to talk about like, you know, I've been working on like resistance breeding here, just small, kind of small batch on the farm for really for my own use of the seeds. So I've been kind of breeding over 20 years, but in the last, Thank you so much for joining us.

2:05:09Bryan Best Friend FarmsI have, you know, a type or two, one type in particular that just seems to be, I wouldn't say spotless, but pretty close to it. And it can be right next to, I'm actually working with different zones of the yard. I had mentioned that on the farm to see if it's just carrying over there or, you know, how it's working. So I've been tracking the septoria in particular for about four, four years now.

2:05:32Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd I see results. Like I said, I found some new faces this year, have some names of them. The gas mouse seems to just winning, be winning in every, that's a kosher Mac headband. And I don't know that it's like, as far as like it's children still fall victim. And I found one back cross one generation. I've done a few back cross generations that actually shows the same resistance back that the mom has.

2:05:57Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd I found that last year in like a really horrible year. But again, I'm kind of like going small at it, not a scientist, but coming from the field angle of it on the farm here and looking at this as like field testing, field trials, as far as it doesn't seem to be going away over the last four years, but I'm definitely seeing some, you know, what I would call like fight later on happen for types, actually.

2:06:20Bryan Best Friend FarmsThat seems really promising.

2:06:23SpeakerI tried resistance breeding. And let me tell you, that's a bitch. It's tough. And what you really need is not only markers, molecular biology, but you need huge amounts of plants to do it properly.

2:06:39Bryan Best Friend FarmsNo doubt. Making an effort on a small scale.

2:06:45BubblemanIt's good to make an effort. Hey, I got a shout out to Heston and George. They came in a while ago and I didn't even get to introduce them. I think Heston actually might have left. Maybe he's not here anymore. But George is still here. Mike is still here. It's Michael Prowitz. Yeah, Michael, that's right. Sorry, he came in under George earlier. And I guess Heston's gone.

2:07:05BubblemanSo maybe he'll pop back in. But yeah, I work with Heston over at Grandmaster LEDs. He's a good dude. I've traveled to a couple of countries with him and... Had a good time with him. So hopefully he'll pop back in and yeah, great topics. Quite enjoying it. Some origin stories.

2:07:25Etienne FontanMichael popped in. He had a very interesting thing since we also talk other plants and other plant medicines. A group that I work with, of course, Veterans Action Council at the national, international level. A few years ago, the United Nations tried to make a plant called kratom illegal, and we were very introverted. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:08:11Etienne FontanWe thought it rather fascinating because we're trying to get, you know, poppy, cannabis and, you know, other plants removed because they're plants and they're...

2:08:22SpeakerI've never taken that, Edkin, but I know that monks were using it in Thailand to help people kick heroin.

2:08:32Etienne FontanCorrect. And that's why a lot of veterans are using. It's a natural alternative to getting off the medications, of course, heroin addicts as well. And they find it to be quite successful. And it's a plant. So, Michael, do you care to, you know, expound on your experiences and why Kratom is such a special plant?

2:08:57SpeakerYeah, sure. Great to see you all. I found it fascinating from a cannabis person's perspective for a couple of reasons. First of all, let me say what ATN was saying. The government is sort of too big of an umbrella. In this particular case, NIDA is on the side of Kratom and FDA is against. And I think it's fascinating if you just peel back the onion and you just look at Kratom From a purely cannabis historical perspective, it gives us a chance to sort of look at what would have happened to cannabis if it were introduced now.

2:09:33SpeakerSo it's not the most pleasant experience for traditional medicines in contemporary conventional medical spheres, right? It's hard to integrate cannabis as a medicine in routine medical care. I'll tell you as an advocate, if you don't know that, it is hard. And you know why, you know, because if you go to a dispensary, you've got 112 products. It's a little difficult to have a doctor say, take two pills and see me in the morning when that circumstance is underfoot.

2:10:07SpeakerBut having said that, it gives us the ability to look at sort of a test case of what would have happened if cannabis were introduced now. And it had never been outlawed. It had never been criminalized by treaty and by the craziness of the 1930s and all the stuff that we all know from Jack Harris' book, right? It would have been really interesting. And I think that's this situation.

2:10:31SpeakerKratom, and the last thing I'll say about that in that line is the experience of the Kratom Association leader who said he went to Champ, the big trade show years ago, and there was one little lonely booth selling Kratom products. And now it's like a whole wing of Kratom. I mean, a whole wing of Champ is dedicated to Kratom. So if you don't see that as an emerging thing in cannabis, I don't know how you could not.

2:10:54SpeakerIt's fascinating. Cannabis and Kratom seem to be tied at the hip in some way. And where the tire meets the road, I guess, is little capsules that have Kratom and CBD in them.

2:11:08Dr Mark ScialdoneVery cool. There's some documented cases now that are in the literature because kratom is so widespread of multi-organ failure and secondary metabolites that are generated when your body breaks down kratom. So I think there's a whole lot more research that needs to be done. I think universally saying that it could be used as a replacement for opiates, Thank you for joining us.

2:11:54Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's an accurate statement.

2:11:56SpeakerWe had a statement from Nora Volkow. She sent a statement. She couldn't be herself live, but she sent a statement.

2:12:04Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat exactly did Nora say?

2:12:07SpeakerWell, I can't remember what Nora said. The statement is available, though. You can read it. There was a toxicologist there, and this is really where it gets even more fascinating for me. This is a really high-ranking toxicologist. He had Harvard ties and stuff. He works in the Columbus, Ohio area, and he basically dispelled a lot of the... The information that was presented that you just quoted as being somewhat anecdotal, limited in nature, difficult to reproduce, and overall not matching the science that's emerging.

2:12:46Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, this is a peer reviewed journal called Psychiatric and Research Case Reports. I just read the paper myself.

2:12:54SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:13:13SpeakerI'm nervous. And that's where I get back to this guy. So he he's talking about emerging cases of cannabis exposure in the Columbus, Ohio region with numbers of cannabis We'll be right back.

2:13:44SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

2:14:12SpeakerThey did. And and. The issues that he brought up in private when we were talking about cannabis were very alarming. He, especially the thing that he said about cannabis emesis, where I told him that, you know, in my experience as advocate, I've got large hospital systems that say, yeah, every once in a while we get cannabis hyperemesis, but in a small hospital system, it never shows up.

2:14:34SpeakerAnd his quick reply to that was, well, they're not trained well enough to recognize it. I don't know that that kind of, you know, sort of, uh, Very spectacle of symptoms are not going to be easily looked up on Google. So I do think the guy needs to be debunked. But nonetheless, I just wanted you guys to hear what was being said out there.

2:14:57Etienne FontanYeah, we understand it's not it's not completely harmless. We understand there needs to be studies, but we also understand it's a plant. And we also know people who have used it to help and save their lives and change their lives. We're like, you know, it isn't for everyone as well as you know, this is Aaron Weissman, Ed.D.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.

2:15:39Etienne FontanI appreciate Michael going. He was in Congress testifying. And Mike, I'll pull up the link and put it in the chat as well.

2:15:47SpeakerJust to be clear, what I was testifying about, I was testifying about the need for Veterans Affairs and all medical professionals to integrate plant-based medicines into their treatment plans. Especially having the my way or the highway thing where you got doctors actually drug testing cannabis patients out of their clinic. And then you wind up with a medical cannabis patient having to make a tough choice. Do I take the opiates and set aside the cannabis?

2:16:16SpeakerOr do I set aside the doctor's opiates and wind up on the street and become a statistic from the street opiates? And that's what we're seeing. It's even worse than that, Michael. Until maybe 10 years ago, if you were a transplant patient in California, And they blood tested you and found THC in your system. You could not get a liver transplant. They would not allow it because they say, well, if you had THC in your blood system, you're probably a poly drug abuser.

2:16:51BubblemanDude, they gave one to Phil Lesh. He was like a raging, like he crushed his liver with wine. He destroyed his own liver with alcohol and he got a liver. But God forbid you have THC in your system.

2:17:03SpeakerIf you're rich enough, you can find exceptions for yourself. David Crosby is a prime example. Damn. I think the other bit with Kratom is that people don't realize because there's not a lot of good education is there's many different types of Kratom. And then also, just like cannabis, depending on what part of the plant's life cycle you harvest it, it's going to have radically different levels of those compounds in the leaves.

2:17:26SpeakerSo, you know, a lot of this stuff is just being grown basically like, you know, old Mexican brickweed where they're just trying to get the equivalent of it in Kratom where these guys are just trying to bulk out as much as they can. They don't care about what time of year they're harvesting it. They don't care about what they're spraying it with. They don't care about any of the same stuff that we worry about in cannabis because it is this very much, much more gray market that has no testing like cannabis does and stuff like that.

2:17:51SpeakerSo you're seeing a lot of that kind of stuff end up in the market as well. Does it cause a psychoactive effect? Do you get high from it or does it just help you with kicking heroin? So I can at least speak for my, for me, if I take a small amount, it's like a stimulant. If I take a larger amount, it's a pretty strong depressant. It feels kind of like taking like codeine or something like that in larger doses.

2:18:19SpeakerSo it is psychoactive. I wouldn't say it's psychoactive, maybe a little bit, but not in a strong way. Not as much as other compounds. Maybe some of the other people here want to speak on their experience.

2:18:37BubblemanI just smoke hash. Hash is nice.

2:18:43Etienne FontanWhat hash are you smoking?

2:18:45BubblemanYou know what? I was just hitting the last of that Piatella from the Natural Born Smokers from Mark. I have one more little piece, so I'm just going to drop it in the focus here and kind of go from there.

2:19:06SpeakerI got my new garlic. It's nice and gassy. Before I forget that the thought from the topic, I was around, you know, I came up in the 70s and I probably would have been a cannabis activist in, you know, Jack Herrod, early days of Jack's work and others, had I not experienced the emergence and convergence of cannabis with cocaine. And cocaine was brought in by High Times Magazine and other sort of trendsetters, what do we call them now?

2:19:48SpeakerWe're talking about cannabis and cocaine in the same sentence. And these are all soft drugs. These are things that we can decriminalize together. And it didn't work out well. And seeing that Champs, this big trade show, has this big wing of Kratom. That makes me quite concerned about, you know, cannabis having a, keeping a better eye on kratom than we did on cocaine. Those are not comparable, you know, other than through my experience that it could adversely affect our cannabis markets if we don't keep an eye on it.

2:20:24SpeakerSo I think that's my last takeaway from that. Cocaine was around long before high times. I was brought up in Hollywood and I can remember cocaine being around in 65.

2:20:40Collin PalmerAll these, I mean, all of these, these, these cattle, all of these, I don't even calendars, I should say, let me turn this off. They all have in the mix of these cannabis photos, all photos of coke.

2:20:56SpeakerWhen I first looked at these, I was like, oh, wow, they got some cool THCA here.

2:21:04BubblemanIf you like the hard drug, you should never take it.

2:21:09SpeakerIf you don't like it, what the fuck do you want it for?

2:21:16Collin PalmerNot for me, man. I like hash. That's I'm good with that. That's where I'm at.

2:21:21SpeakerYeah. And cocaine has been around for a very long time. But the emergence of those, you know, sort of cultural camps wasn't for very long at all, you know, and it blew up badly. I mean, that's what took down President Carter's cannabis plans was a cocaine party.

2:21:42SpeakerI read a book by Peter Dale Scott. And the doctor also prescribing Quaaludes to girls.

2:21:50BubblemanThere was a book by Peter Dale Scott called Cocaine Politics that absolutely is an unbelievable deep dive into the whole scenario from trading weapons for cocaine all over North, all of it.

2:22:08Etienne FontanPeople need to realize Keith Strapp was the head of normal and he did coke with the drug czar and then spun and went right out to the media and was like, oh, I just did coke with the drug czar. That did damage beyond decades, people, just so you know. There's coke in the White House now.

2:22:25SpeakerThere was a conflict between the American government spraying Paraquat on Mexican cannabis while they were discerning cocaine. Well, yeah, that was what Keith Straub said that he turned Dr. Bourne out to dry, you know, left him out to dry was because of the Paraquat stuff of the Carter, which, you know, certainly wasn't Dr. Bourne's freaking fault or really President Carter's for that matter. Yeah, and President Carter might have decriminalized back then, but when the Peter Bourne problem came out, that was it.

2:23:05SpeakerThat's the cautionary tale I was talking about. Do you think Iboga has a better chance of being a plant-based opioid treatment than Kratom? Because I know quite a few people that have had that. Maybe yes, because it also gives you a hard time. That's not a bad thing. I'm thinking that one. I will gain is a is a you know, these are these are all plant based substances that need to be integrated into care.

2:23:32SpeakerAnd but that means careful use. The doctor, you know, should should be happy with the with the the caution there, you know. And if you go from there and you take a subset of that and you bring it out to wider scale social use, that's the way I think we should do these things. Instead of the other way around, which we put it all into social, you just see who dies and put that under control.

2:23:56SpeakerNot exactly my way of doing things.

2:24:02BubblemanLights bolt right after statement. That's the way we do it here on Hash Church.

2:24:09Etienne FontanWell, Ibogaine, you know, the Iboga plant has been known to help those, especially with the most hardcore cases, right? Kratom seems to be more of a supplement, like, you know, cannabis tends to be, you know, a daily, but if you want to deal with some of your deeper psychological issues, We recommend psychedelics like mushrooms, LSD, et cetera, in the proper setting and the right mindset. So I think each has its place, especially for those that are heavily addicted.

2:24:40Etienne FontanIbogaine is found to stop and really get at the heart of the issue so that you can start your healing process, right? Whereas Kratom seems to be something you would be using daily as cravings, et cetera.

2:24:58SpeakerSince we're on the topic of other plants, have you guys played around with Kana or Kana Cannabis Synergy, especially for seizure patients? It's fucking awesome. It's an African root herb, but it also works on the CB1 receptor. It's pretty great. I just didn't know if anybody here has... Have you taken it? Oh yeah, many times. It's one of my favorite things to mix with cannabis. It'll make your high much stronger from like a lower potency weed.

2:25:24SpeakerAnd it also will like reset your sea legs for drinking and smoking. So like if you're not used to it, don't go out and have a beer or two at the bar and smoke a bowl with that. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:25:46SpeakerSouth Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique. It's a root bark from a succulent plant. But if you mix it with cannabis, it can work. And I have a sublingual that I make that has kanna and cannabis in it, and it can stop seizures. What is the active ingredient in it? Hold on, I'll look it up. It begins with an M. There is a pharmacist... Meza Brine, I'll just pull it up here on Wikipedia.

2:26:20SpeakerMake it easier to see. But this is the active ingredient in it, but it works amazing as a synergistic plant with cannabis. And I was just curious if any of you guys have played around with it at all. I've never seen it or used it. Definitely wanted to check out. If you take a large amount, so if you smoke just like a gram or two of it to your head, it will make you feel a bit sped up.

2:26:48SpeakerLike I will warn you on that. But if you use it like in any kind of small dosage with cannabis, it's not a... It's smokable. Yeah, it's smokable and edible. So you can also put it in with... Like put it in your column. If you're doing like butane or R134A or CO2 or whatever else, you can put some on top of your column and it'll mix in with all of your, you know, you can extract it with the rest of your flower and get a pretty cool synergistic.

2:27:15Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's a phenomenal meat. Right. It basically it has the molecular structure of a dimethoxy phenethylamine. Right. Because there's a there's a two carbon bridge between a quaternary nitrogen and a phenyl ring that's got two methoxy groups on it. That's a phenethylamine, man. Right. Do you see that?

2:27:38SpeakerYeah. It's like PCP.

2:27:41Dr Mark ScialdoneNo, it's like, uh, it's, it's like ecstasy. It's like a Shulgin molecule. I have known and loved. Yes. It's a phenethylamine. I have to look in, in, uh, in PCAL and see if that, that compounds known. I've, I've, I've never seen this structure until today.

2:28:04SpeakerIn Zimbabwe and South Africa, it's been used for like thousands of years, like the Khoisan and stuff, use it for seizure suppression. So if someone has seizures, they'll give them the root bark to like suppress the seizures, but it's also like a mild stimulant. So you can like suppress the seizures, but still have like energy because that's often a problem with seizure patients. But it is one of the cool things I learned when I was over there in Zimbabwe.

2:28:26Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, the thing is, I wouldn't expect it to be thermally stable. I would expect if you heated this thing up, it's going to degrade. That's just...

2:28:35SpeakerI can tell you, if you mix it, you'll feel quite different than if you just smoke that bowl the same. So there's definitely something going on.

2:28:42Dr Mark ScialdoneSo potentially what it could be is maybe not the native compound here, but it could be whatever thermally it degrades to, right?

2:28:50SpeakerWell, it works both ways. It works in edibles as well, that I can attest to, so...

2:28:55Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I mean, I could see it. It looked, again, it's a phenethylamine, so it should be active orally. That's interesting, though, that, I mean, it's not like you could sprinkle ecstasy on your bowl, right? Or any of those phenethylamines on your bowl. A lot of those things are just going to degrade thermally, right? They're just not thermally stable.

2:29:20Dr Mark ScialdoneCool, though. Really neat.

2:29:23SpeakerThe other one that, and I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard for a CB2 receptor that Spilanthes is really good for increasing uptake. I read a paper or two on that, and I didn't know if you guys have heard anything about that either. What was the name of that one again? Spilanthes, or toothache plant, is supposed to increase your CB2 receptor efficiency.

2:29:48SpeakerCould you spell that? I can put that up on the screen again.

2:29:53Dr Mark ScialdoneOr put it up on the screen, yeah.

2:29:55SpeakerShit, I'm going. That rosin looks really good. Is that a natural sweetener?

2:30:04SpeakerI'm not sure if they use it for a sweetener. It's used for like toothache treatment in herbal medicine. But this is the genus. I'm not sure which species is the one that you want for, you know, in particular, but.

2:30:17Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, I'd be interested in what's the alkaloid that's in there. So is there anything known about the active ingredient?

2:30:24SpeakerI'm not sure. It's just something that I don't know that anything on the chemistry of it. It's just something that I've come across.

2:30:30Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, ask a chemist a chemistry question. You're going to get a chemistry answer.

2:30:38Archive SeedsYou waiting for those cyan essence to pop up, Marcus?

2:30:41BubblemanOh, my God, dude. Am I ever waiting for those cyan essence to pop up? Mark, it's an SRI, it's considered, I guess.

2:30:48Collin PalmerSo, I mean.

2:30:51SpeakerOkay. There was another.

2:30:55Collin PalmerIt's behaved as a weak inhibitor of the enzyme PD4. Yeah, so it's a PD4 inhibitor. Okay. Right, a mouth numbing agent type of plant.

2:31:17Collin PalmerI mean, I guess it could be considered that, but we don't know how many milligrams. I guess it's saying down here, as I read further, no adverse results were noted for a commercial extract up to 5,000 milligrams daily in rats. So rat studies of the KANA extract finding analgesic and antidepressant potential.

2:31:44SpeakerAnd look what an aesthetic it looks like. That's interesting.

2:31:47Bryan Best Friend FarmsYou can chew the leaves and it makes your mouth numb. I know that part.

2:31:51Collin PalmerYeah, I mean, I don't know anything about it. It's interesting, though.

2:32:00SpeakerWell, I found this fascinating. I'm sending it through a name now. It's 7-hydroxymitagynine-70H.

2:32:06Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, that's one of the metabolites in kratom.

2:32:10SpeakerYeah, so they showed the graphs of Kratom, you know, the actual regular Kratom product. And then they showed the graph of that product. And it, it, it, there was, it's, it's very interesting to me because it looks a lot like some of these novel cannabis inspired synthetics that we're seeing being sold on the market because it really has almost no relationship with the Kratom plant. Like if you took a million pounds of Kratom, you wouldn't get You know, any of that 7-0-H, you know, it just, it shows up in such a minor amount on the graph that it's insignificant.

2:32:45SpeakerAnd it's all just that one spike, basically. Very interesting. Again, the science, I don't want to ape it, but... Well, they're acting on the opioid receptors.

2:32:55Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's the same receptors that opiates act on, right? So it's sort of like a replacement. The question is, is what are the toxic side effects? That's, I guess... I just want to let you know, Mike, I'm in the same side as you. I mean, I'd like to see more plant medicine, but in order for, you know, doctors to feel good about prescribing it, they need to be able to point to double blind kind of placebo studies.

2:33:21Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd we need people like Nora. Nora Volker at NIDA to say, hey, NIH, let's spend some money on this. Let's get this clinical data in front of these doctors. So yeah, rather than prescribing an opiate or when they have people with opiate use disorder, that they could figure out how to use this plant medicine to be a safer alternative.

2:33:47SpeakerBut please understand, I said that through as a problem child. That particular substance that I just sent through was condemned by the Kratom Association. It's being outlawed, and they're trying to outlaw it as a dangerous drug. And again, it seems very interesting to me as a corollary to some of the rather dangerous synthetic, I don't even want to call them cannabinoids, they're cannabis-inspired science in the gas stations.

2:34:17SpeakerI have been analogs, which like spice.

2:34:24Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat you're talking about.

2:34:25SpeakerYeah. Yeah.

2:34:26Dr Mark ScialdoneSo those are those are not phyto cannabinoid derivatives at all. Right. And that's that heterocyclic molecule dreamed up by a synthetic chemist or by Huffman or whoever. Now you're looking for a new set of keys to park into the cannabinoid receptors that have nothing to do with the plant. But I guess the point is, is that like when when when people just start using. Using plants like that, like just anecdotally, I mean, again, like chewing on leaves gets your mouth filling up.

2:34:58Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I guess there's only so much damage you can do.

2:35:04SpeakerI agree with you. I think there's a shitload of damage that can be done. That's why I brought up the example of cocaine with the cannabis back in 78. Kratom has every capability of taking cannabis down.

2:35:17SpeakerJohn Huffman would not take any of the analogs that he discovered. Oh, shit. Dude, no one would take any of those analogs if they just... John Huffman did smoke my skunk number one hash with me. He thought that was quite interesting, but he wouldn't buy his compounds because they hadn't been tested on humans.

2:35:41BubblemanWhat I was going to say about that spice, if anyone is ever feeling like they want to experiment with that, there's a deep rabbit hole you can go down. And I don't know why they all seem to be in jail, but guys in jail hitting spice. And it is like, if that doesn't turn you off and make you terrified of that drug, like it is. I don't know how they do it, like in a cage, like in a small space, like get that fucked up.

2:36:07BubblemanBut those drugs truly scare me. That is some like terror. I thought Salvia was scary, you know, early 2000 when Gypsy Nirvana got a hold of the 20X and the 30X. And he was just like giving bong rips to people out on like, you know, a balcony in Lugano overlooking the lake.

2:36:27SpeakerWell, you know who else was doing that? Steve.

2:36:30BubblemanWell, yeah, of course I know who else was doing that. That's who I was visiting while I was there and he was doing it. And I remember him saying to Jorge Cervantes, want to get higher than you've ever been off a bong, but not telling him what was in the bong. And I was there when Jorge hit that and did the...

2:36:48SpeakerI told Steve that if he ever dosed me with something like that, that I have a large foot that'll go right up his fucking ass.

2:36:58BubblemanYeah, dude, well, it's the super uncoolest thing to do, right? It's like the breaching of the two psychedelic commandments, which is like, don't keep someone from taking psychedelics and don't give someone psychedelics without their knowledge. Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of that.

2:37:15Collin PalmerBrent handed me a cracker once on a show. I went for a walk in the lot and...

2:37:22Bubbleman45 minutes later, I was like... Dude, if it's not a grilled cheese or a veggie burrito, you know it's dosed.

2:37:28Collin PalmerI honestly was like, am I at the point where I've eaten so much acid that I'm just starting to just trip on my... You're in that age where you're just starting to... Everything's a wonder. But no, it was just my friend giving me a cracker or crackers with one of them dosed.

2:37:48SpeakerAnd do you think Selvia is a psychedelic? To me, it's a dispersonalization drug.

2:37:53BubblemanYes, it's not. Even when I said that, but it is something that you shouldn't give someone without their knowledge. Right. No, no. I went to that category.

2:38:04Etienne FontanI went to a I went to a punk show in Pittsburgh in the early 90s to see gangrene and social distortion. And I saw my friend in my band I hadn't seen. I went out. And as I did that, he went and put a dab of acid, which was LSD on my tongue. And by that time, it was like, oh, no. Oh, now that's being dosed. So it's yeah.

2:38:30Etienne FontanBut at that point, you're committed because it already had hit my tongue. Yeah.

2:38:33SpeakerThe electric Kool-Aid acid test did that to thousands of people. And a lot of them did not know what they were in for. Because it was in the electric Kool-Aid and it was legal at the time. But yeah, me was no problem. Somebody could do that to me. But some of these other drugs, I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole. We had a top person in our little normal chapter here at Virginia Tech that was really into salvia.

2:39:06SpeakerAnd I can tell you, I looked into it and it's not a euphorian, it's a dysphorian, like Sam was saying. The thing about it is, is that how do you outlaw something when your entire drug outlawing system is based on So, you know, it's just totally, they outlawed Salvia based on nothing. And that bothered me. But watching him take that made me not want to ever think about taking it, never suggest it to anyone.

2:39:39SpeakerIf you want to know how to speak like some kind of language from an old Star Trek movie or, you know, something like that, that it's really, wow.

2:39:48Bryan Best Friend FarmsI watched my heartbeat to a fan on the ceiling when a friend handed it to me. My glassblower friend was all pumped and my other buddy was really into it to the left of me. And I guess I looked normal because I asked him after, what did that look like? And he took a rip on it, my friend to the left, and I watched him go to another world, like doing swirls in his seat down a whirlpool.

2:40:12Bryan Best Friend FarmsClassic Salvia, the swirls. Like, he was gone, man. I guess I held it down, but I definitely felt like what he looked like and never went back again to that one.

2:40:24BubblemanYeah, I witnessed too much of it.

2:40:26Bryan Best Friend FarmsThe modern version of that.

2:40:28SpeakerMost people I know that smoked DMT loved it, but I also met a few people, some of my friends, who took a big hit on it. They knew what was coming. But yeah, they said they saw the face of the devil and it freaking freaked them out. That's the modern one. I was at a concert last year and my buddy's girlfriend handed me a vape pen and I thought it was just, you know, rosin or live resin and hit it and realized it was DMT and was like, just a little fucking warning or something, man.

2:41:02SpeakerLike, come on, like, I'm down, but like, at least tell me that it's not weed when everyone else here is smoking weed.

2:41:08BubblemanJust passing DMT pens around. That's where we're at today. We're just at that point now.

2:41:17Dr Mark ScialdoneThere was a show in Connecticut last year, the band Dark Star Orchestra, and right in front of the band, I guess it was, it wasn't a DMT pen, I think, but they ended up finding out through forensics later that it was laced with fentanyl, and everybody who took a hit of it basically dropped to the floor, and so they stopped the show, and yeah, had to like medically evac people away from the Four who were given a pen that was and DMT supposedly laced with fentanyl.

2:41:50BubblemanWell, I'm going to echo the worlds of mouse chronic, and that is that shrooms over synthetics for me as well. I prefer the mushroom vibe and eat right before we got on to this conversation. Let's ask me if I was excited about the science. And so I will say. I am excited that the Sionessens again here in the Pacific Northwest are just going to pop out any day now.

2:42:13BubblemanAnd, you know, a whole variety of them from the Stunzies to the Semilinciatas, the Liberty Caps to the Sionessens, the Wavy Caps, the Azoressens. There's a lot of good ones. And then all sorts of...

2:42:30BubblemanNon-psychedelic ones, right? Just like consumables like pine mushrooms and oyster mushrooms and lobster mushrooms and cauliflower mushrooms. There's so many different nice varieties that this is kind of shoulder season used to bum me out waiting for snowboard season to start. But now I can spend most of my shoulder season just hunting and picking edible and psychedelic mushrooms. So it's pretty, it's a fun thing to get into.

2:42:57SpeakerKnow the cheat sheet for mushroom hunting? And I figured this out in Colorado. So you take a digital meat thermometer when you go out into the forest, especially if you're like porcini hunting, chanterelles, morels, and you test, sorry about that, you test the temperature. So when you find your first morel or belete or whatever, you stick it on the ground two or three inches down and you get that temperature reading and your local population will be within a very set range.

2:43:24SpeakerSo for instance, like black morels, Are usually like 44 to 46 degrees Fahrenheit in the ground. So then you can go to area, you know, and check the temperature right outside the parking lot and be like, nope, We're too early. It's not warm enough or, oh, we're too late. And then you can find that altitude that has all of your target mushrooms fruiting really quickly that way.

2:43:44SpeakerI literally doubled or tripled my yields once we started doing that because we weren't wasting time hiking areas that were going to not be fruitful. We can immediately scan the area quickly and find out if we're going to waste our time or not. That's awesome. That's a great home in Santa Cruz in the mountains. We have a chanterelle patch that when the rain would come, I could easily go up and pick out 10 kilos easy.

2:44:09SpeakerNice.

2:44:10BubblemanYeah, I have to admit, like when I go pick mushrooms, like especially in Squamish, it's so, they're so prolific. There's so many of them, like even winter chanterelles, they're really tiny. But when we go, there are thousands. thousands of them like we can never pick them all and there's always a bunch of other people walking through the forest with their little mushroom uh um basket but that's cool man i'm gonna i'm gonna start uh looking into that and checking the temperature out yeah just look at your satellite rain map and then overlay that with the the temperature map a lot of i know the us most states have a temperature map that you can look up online for like yeah

2:44:46SpeakerGeological survey or whatever that has a, you know, every few days updated temperature map and you can, you can find them much, much more efficiently that way. It's awesome.

2:44:56Etienne FontanVery cool.

2:45:00BubblemanAlmost three hours so far. Not sure where the conversation will go, but always happy to talk about these things. Go ahead, Mike.

2:45:08Dr Mark ScialdoneI had a static tech question. You know, when you guys were talking about that before, I was poking around here on the internet to see if there's anything known about it. And so I guess the question is, and it kind of, it marries the two topics of holes, right? You're talking about holes and static. And that is that As charged particles go through holes, they can develop static electricity.

2:45:35Dr Mark ScialdoneSo it brings up the notion of, well, could there actually be some type of static electricity effect in particles progressing through the holes? But the other thing that that brings up is that maybe what you can do is pre-activate Your meshes and your screens by like, I don't know, just putting some kind of like magnetic particles through them or some kind of charged particles. So a charged particle going through a hole will basically be subject to some type of static electricity effect.

2:46:10Dr Mark ScialdoneI don't know if it would help.

2:46:11SpeakerI put that my hand, it's like walking on a wall carpet. We'll build up static electricity in your body. Yeah, I noticed my hand charges the resin heads. That's why they cling to my hand.

2:46:31Dr Mark ScialdoneBut is there some kind of phenomenon in in the screen itself?

2:46:38Archive SeedsIt's the, you're creating a charge field with this, like your hand or the paper and the polyester screen, right? And as the resin and the contaminant passes through that charge, then the resin charges, like I was just showing, if you look at my screen, I just pushed it onto a bigger piece of hash, but just like putting, Just putting some hash. Yeah, there's someone doing it right there.

2:47:10Archive SeedsBut if you just put the hash in some parchment paper, and let me press it out a little thinner so it's a little more visible. But just heat or, you know, any of that creates a, charges the particles.

2:47:26BubblemanDo you see the parchment being important in that? Like without the parchment, it doesn't seem to be charged.

2:47:33Archive SeedsYeah, yes, exactly. 100% because the parchment, I mean, I'm assuming the paper, but also it has the coating on it.

2:47:41Dr Mark ScialdonePaper is an insulator, right?

2:47:43Archive SeedsRight.

2:47:44Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. So paper is an insulator.

2:47:46BubblemanHe was just about to show that. Can you just go back to showing that? And nobody talked to us for like 30 seconds when he shows his fresh hash because we were just, we were there.

2:47:55Archive SeedsMe? Oh, yeah, right. Oh, sorry. It like it loses its charge, but you can see it. It moves towards my finger.

2:48:08BubblemanYeah, that's exactly the video that I just showed. I just showed it with...

2:48:11Collin PalmerIt's like a balloon to your hair.

2:48:14BubblemanSo it's like the...

2:48:15Archive SeedsIt also works with... Because we have a charge. It'll work with pretty much anything that's... Like the plant material doesn't take on the charge, and I'm guessing it's just, you know, the THC, I guess, because it's mostly THC that's in the hash at the end of the day.

2:48:32SpeakerSo... Well, it depends on what variety you're growing.

2:48:36Archive SeedsWell, cannabinoids, should I say, but for what I'm using, it's mostly THC.

2:48:41SpeakerI bought a bandigraph generator and put powdered hash on that to see what would happen, and it scattered it completely around me.

2:48:54Archive SeedsYeah, I mean, that's all that that plasmatic thing that you have, Marcus, is, is it's just an electrostatic separator, just like they use in the smoke sacks of like industrial plants to pull particles out of the air for cleaning air.

2:49:06BubblemanYep, it's going through that long tube and that's where it's getting charged. It gets charged in the long tube.

2:49:13Archive SeedsYeah. And it's passing through the charge field and then it sticks to the positive plate and the negative.

2:49:21BubblemanYeah.

2:49:22Archive SeedsYeah.

2:49:23SpeakerAnd that's all it is. That's why I was asking. Pash sticks to one of them and the good stuff sticks to the other. That's exactly, exactly.

2:49:31Bryan Best Friend FarmsWould ultrasonic movement work for the resin afterwards to put in like a little ultrasonic cleaner and let it cling to the walls or something with that type of frequency?

2:49:41SpeakerWell, I used ultrasonic cleaners with Pash also. And I found that I had a Gilson ultrasonic cleaner We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today.

2:50:18SpeakerSo, Mark, as you were saying, like the electrostatic separator, you have to pass it through several times. It's not perfect, right? But it cleans up bulk.

2:50:38Archive SeedsThe thing you could do with that afterwards that may be faster is like a jet sieve, right? Which is like a little air, you know what I'm talking about, where it spins around in a circle with air inside. And that may help break, because I think most of the problem is that you have contaminant that sticks to the resin heads, right? And then it gets brought over with it.

2:51:00Archive SeedsAnd that could help break some of that contaminant off.

2:51:04BubblemanYeah, I played with a jet seed years ago. It was definitely intense how those things work and how high pitched and loud they can be when you hit the right... When you hit the right speed. I just never found anything to work as well as what Sam was doing. That just seemed to be like, if you actually just buckle down and you just did the work, you could do a lot of hash in a fairly short period of time.

2:51:30BubblemanBut it was also dependent on being a great cultivar and a great hash producer and the process working. It just didn't work on all resins.

2:51:39SpeakerIn the room. And it also helped the heat of the hand with grapes, not with grapes, but with raisins, dried resin. Yeah, exactly. Raisin resin. It works way better.

2:51:57BubblemanYeah, it didn't work for all resin, that's for sure. I haven't used the best resin through my Sambo filtration unit yet, but I have talked to Hash Crew and a few others, Logan, Wolverine, Dabs, and they both said the same thing. Like, it works great when you have really great resin and you've cleaned it a little bit and gotten rid of a lot of that chafe because it just blows around and it attaches itself to everything in the unit, so it's nicer.

2:52:25BubblemanI... I mean, I have heard people in Morocco having great success with the Sambo filtration, really making nice resin with it and it being because they have such an abundance of it and it's such a resin focused place. It seems like that's the place I've heard the most success coming from Sambo Creek filtration. A lot of people still don't know the technology.

2:52:48SpeakerIt's funny too, because the first time I went to Morocco in 71, They had really only been making hash for less than a decade. They were still keep farmers. And yeah, the hash farmers slowly made lots more money because they could supply it to exporters. Whereas the keep was not being really exported from Morocco, which is where the money comes from Europe. And when they were able to export huge quantities of hashish.

2:53:23Collin PalmerCertainly an interesting machine, the Sambo Creek. I heard someone talk to me about how there's another group developing. I mean, everyone's probably developing something similar to it. So time will tell what more comes of it. But I think. You know, farmers grade hash into ultra refined 99% heads, I think is still the unicorn to chase, right?

2:53:45BubblemanSo absolutely, it would it would really affect all of these water extraction GMP labs, because most of those labs would rather not use water if they didn't have to they you know, you're not really water has to be controlled very differently in a GMP lab than it does in a normal lab you can just have an open you know drain that you can't have that in a GMP lab like the drain has to be very specific if you're even allowed to have one most likely you're pumping the water to and from tanks that are then being drained from another room um So the idea, it is a unicorn.

2:54:21BubblemanThe idea that you could take like farmer's grade hash and clean it really quick to make large amounts of, even like Sam was saying, like 70 to 80% heads is going to melt like water. I mean, really, even 50% to 70% heads would probably be perfect for rosin production.

2:54:40SpeakerWill melt like water, you're correct. Yeah. And it's, yeah, I don't know what to say because...

2:54:52SpeakerI really, really like dry sift a lot. And to me, that is the holy grail. But I'll be the first one to admit it. When you water sift doing with your bags, you can easily get three times as much resin as I can get by dry sifting.

2:55:11BubblemanYeah, that's definitely the part of the unicorn aspect of that is that In a water hash is counterintuitive or sorry, dry sifting is counterintuitive. The harder you work the screens, you don't have the water as a transfer chamber, keeping everything afloat while your head sink down and purified a 99% pure heads. Instead, you have a screen That the more violent you are, the more contaminant that you'll fill.

2:55:38BubblemanAnd a lot of dry sift that I even just back in the day bought in Amsterdam in the 90s, looked at it under a microscope. It was probably between 10 and generously 20% heads. So, you know, the dry sift was very, very contaminated compared to the water hash. And the problem is, is when you want to make great dry sift like Sam makes, The hard part is efficiently getting off all the heads to be able to clean them because he knows the harder he works on those heads to get them off, the more cleaning work he's going to have to do.

2:56:13BubblemanIt's completely counterintuitive.

2:56:16Archive SeedsYeah, unfortunately, the dry sift hash doesn't really resonate that well with the American consumer market of hash. Europe, on the other hand, is a completely different story.

2:56:28SpeakerI think it's strictly because of the quality. If you have top notch six star quality, they don't care if it's dry sifted, water sifted, or if it comes from wherever. As long as it's clean and safe, people want it.

2:56:46Archive SeedsI mean, it's there's so many choices out there today. I mean, I've put full melt dry sift that's from lemon peel on my shelf in Oregon. We do it with the water hash too. We'll put the six star water hash and then the rosin and still the rosin because people don't like having to clean up after themselves. The, you know, the dry sift and the, um, well, if you make 99, it's just, it's just, you know, in terms of consumption habits in America, if, if you use, um,

2:57:15SpeakerReally clean dry sieve, like 99. It's skunk. It's 83% THC and terpene rich. With water hash, I'd say it must be pretty close to the same thing. Maybe some of the varieties that you water hash, the terpene levels are slightly lowered. But I love really, really potent dry sieve. That's high in THC and high in terpene.

2:57:49Archive SeedsI agree. Unfortunately, I just, I can't convince other people to love it as much.

2:57:54SpeakerIt's bloody expensive to produce when the bulk material is illegal.

2:58:00BubblemanImagine having that on the shelf of the city you live in and not knowing, just being like, ah, just give me some pre-roll joints.

2:58:08SpeakerImagine walking into, like you do at the natural food store and you buy You know, scoop yourself up a pound and take it away. I'm grabbing a kilo because I'm in Canada.

2:58:38Archive SeedsYeah, I mean, I've put this on before the shelf, right? Which is static tech, you know, super clean. And then it turns into this when you press it out, right? I can almost taste that, dude.

2:58:51BubblemanAnd that hash looks exactly how it's supposed to look.

2:58:54SpeakerWith the best static test of dry sift, when you press it into rosin, it barely gets higher in pH.

2:59:04Archive SeedsOh, this isn't rosin. That's just the hash pressed out on parchment.

2:59:08SpeakerOh, okay.

2:59:09Archive SeedsYeah, that's just this hash, this dry sift hash pressed on a piece of parchment.

2:59:14BubblemanWhich proves his point completely, because if you had put that in the screen, it would look exactly the same and you would lose almost nothing.

2:59:23Archive SeedsYeah, I would never do that, just that, my dry sift. I would never take my six-star dry sift and put it in a screen. I'm a... Dude, I'm telling you.

2:59:33SpeakerWhat you can do is you can take 70% resin head and squash it, and then you do get a higher THC, higher terpene product.

2:59:44BubblemanSure, but the six-star, taking the six-star, and shout-out to the Bazaar Brothers again. Every time I say six-star, I'm going to shout-out Josh and Corpy, Corpy in Space. Yeah, pressing six star is some next level crazy shit. Marcus, have you ever seen seven star? Have I what?

3:00:06SpeakerYou ever seen seven star?

3:00:10BubblemanWell, no, I've never seen seven star. I know that. I can't remember who it was. There was a company that named themselves Seven Star, but they were a rosin company. And I thought that was so funny because they didn't understand that the whole star rating was the melt factor of the hash. And once you make oil, there is no star rating for that. It's going to melt every time that you heat it up.

3:00:36BubblemanIt's fucking oil.

3:00:37Archive SeedsI still think we should move on to the gravimetric rating because it tells you how melty this shit is. I mean, this is dry, you know, and you can see it's just straight, you know, it's clear. So, but the, you know, unfortunately the consumers are, you know, All right, so we're going to talk about some of the things that we're going to talk about today.

3:01:01SpeakerWe're going to talk about some of the things that we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about some of the things that we're going to talk about today.

3:01:26SpeakerAltering the color.

3:01:27Archive SeedsYeah, it's, it seems to me that, that, you know, the trichome heads mature at different rates on outdoor versus indoor. And that may be for a multitude of reasons due to weather or whatever. But yeah, I agree that it's definitely different.

3:01:44BubblemanThat's Sam Skunk, number one resin grown in his greenhouse. Beautiful.

3:01:51SpeakerThere was a guy a while back that was doing, or at least advertised doing like a, kind of like an electrolysis, almost like a reverse electroplating to try and kick the trichome heads off. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of that or played with that at all. I only met him like once or twice. I think it was at BizCon. But they were doing like a high pH solution, like an 8.0 pH solution, and then had an electrode attached to the base of the plant, and they just dip it in and then had, you know, A different current running in the water and then some collection plates to try and collect the heads.

3:02:27SpeakerI didn't know if that was something that you guys thought might be combining some electrical collection with the water would be something that would be a way to kind of help filter that. I can't speak on it.

3:02:39Collin PalmerI think there's something like frequency ranges with vibration. That definitely makes sense to me in terms of what we're after.

3:02:47Archive SeedsI have a question for Dr. Mark.

3:02:52SpeakerYes, sir.

3:02:53Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, Fletch, what's going on, man?

3:02:55Archive SeedsNothing. If you had some like rosin and put in a centrifuge or even just good hash, what could you do with that?

3:03:07Dr Mark ScialdoneAre you trying to separate the liquid phase from the solids?

3:03:11Archive SeedsSure, yeah. And maybe even separate those even more. I don't know. I'm just throwing the idea out there. Someone to play with. So, because there's a lot of, I can make some rosin that's like soup. So, I'm just curious, like, you know, how can we separate it without heat, theoretically?

3:03:28Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, is that a fresh frozen run?

3:03:31Archive SeedsYes. I mean, I can get it from certain strains, from dry trim, but like, the wheat gets trimmed, it goes straight into the freezer, then it gets washed, you know, like, I can do it with some strains dry.

3:03:42Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat kind of yields do you get on that?

3:03:44Archive SeedsDry, in terms of the rosin? Yeah, I mean, what kind of... Oh, good, good. Just like it, just strain dependent, but it's, you know, anywhere from three to eight, seven or 8% fresh frozen, depending on how tight you're trimming everything up or your material process.

3:03:58Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. So, okay. And are you normally pressing that in the rosin or are you, so what you're asking, is there another way that you could process that other...

3:04:05Archive SeedsI'm saying what, yeah, yeah. Like the whole goal with cannabis resin is to never hit it with heat, right?

3:04:11Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. Yeah.

3:04:12Archive SeedsSo how could you take... Any cannabis product and remove the contaminant from it without adding heat to it at all.

3:04:23Dr Mark ScialdoneNot without adding a solvent, right?

3:04:25Archive SeedsYeah, without a solvent. So you're going to need to use heat for the rosin process probably.

3:04:32Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, but I'm just thinking like you were asking specifically about like, like using like a center fuse. So the center fuse is really good. Like, like with with BHO, it's, it's, it's the bomb, especially if you just look into isolate your turf fraction. Because when you crash out your those diamonds, and you basically want to separate out your solid diamonds from the turf fraction. Yeah, for productivity, the There's nothing that works quite as good as the as a centrifuge because That usually that terp fraction is super thick, right?

3:05:11Dr Mark ScialdoneSo if you just try to do a filtration by gravity, just with like a little screen or something, it's just going to take forever. But the centrifuge will speed that up. I don't know if you could do that without not using a solvent because it seems like you'd have to add a solvent to that to get things to separate. But are you trying to make a solventless diamond?

3:05:35Dr Mark ScialdoneIs that what you're trying to do or?

3:05:37Archive SeedsNo, not necessarily. I think more of my thought process was you have all these people making solventless vape pens, right? And most of them are, you know, taking all of the resin and cooking it essentially to be, you know, because you have to. So you take the rosin before it gets cooked, separate out the good terpene fraction, then cook the THC part, then add the stuff back.

3:06:02Archive SeedsNow you have uncooked terps.

3:06:05Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, so could you just use pressure alone to kind of juice the turps?

3:06:09Archive SeedsAnd you get exposure to heat. That's the big problem, you know, because the whole squishing where you squish the turps out, that ruins it, in my opinion. I mean, it ruins it. I agree. Like the THC solventless diamonds, ugh, gross.

3:06:25SpeakerI agree. 30 years ago, what we discovered in our lab doing R&D was Thank you so much for joining us.

3:06:52SpeakerThank you for joining us.

3:07:23Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, that's why they try to do that at lower temperatures because you want to try to get the cannabinoids. You don't need a lot of time. You know, like if you have cannabis sticky on your hands, you'll notice that you could just squirt it with a little bit of alcohol and immediately dissolves. So the polarity is just there's no match for the alcohol. It's instantly dissolved. But like you said, Sam, On prolonged extraction, not only do you get pigments, but you start getting sugars and all kinds of other stuff that you don't want.

3:07:57SpeakerYeah, it'll come out very dark green black.

3:08:00Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. But doing it on the hash, I thought what Fletch was asking about is, could you possibly do that with hash? And I guess the whole point is you want to keep it solventless. I mean, adding...

3:08:13SpeakerAdding ethanol to hash just to... No, no, we were just experimenting to see what would happen. Right, sure. And just like when I first made water hash, and I think we were among the very first people in the world to do so after Neville showed it to me a week after he learned it, what we found was that the... I'm a bit high here, so I'm spacing out.

3:08:42SpeakerYou'll have to excuse me. Yeah, I forget what my point was. I'm sorry.

3:08:50Collin PalmerI got to run in like just two seconds, two minutes, but I believe everybody at this thought is you totally can separate the constituents of once you get it into rosin form and just just separate the THCA. The problem you're going to run in with THCA in solventless form is it's going to bubble a lot when you start heating it up. So you're going to want to add some of the impurities back in to make it not get to that point.

3:09:20Collin PalmerAnd there's a balance to do that.

3:09:21SpeakerWell, the other problem, of course, is that pure THC by itself is nowhere near as psychoactive as THC-A with terpenes. So, yeah, pure THC is not the holy grail. It's interesting, but it's the holy grail to me is dry sip with the right terpenes.

3:09:46Collin PalmerYeah. So to get to that place though, guys, it's just like decarb that. And then, um, but there you go, brother.

3:09:54Archive SeedsYeah. My point was how to separate the terpenes without any additional heat application. That's, that's, that's the real question that I was asking.

3:10:03Collin PalmerYou can do, I don't, you know, I don't, I don't, I've, I've left jars out. I have jars now that I've left for months that are just sitting there and there's a huge terp layer, but Some of them have created THCA within, inside of it, like little nuggets in there. And I'm just like, let it go. We'll just let it go and see what, for the name of experimentation, see what happens.

3:10:29Collin PalmerBut yeah.

3:10:29Archive SeedsI just think the first, the grade, the second you start, You expose them to anything above freezing, right? They degrade, change. That's why like jars go sour if you leave them out, right?

3:10:45SpeakerThey do change. But every time anybody ever smoked marijuana or hashish in the past, that change was going on.

3:10:55Archive SeedsSure. I agree. I just I just like fresh product. That's my main thing. You know, super dank, skunky stuff and fresh.

3:11:04SpeakerWell, I find that when my rosin was fresh frozen rosin and too fresh, and I smoked a lot, it was really harsh on my lungs and it had too many of the monoterpenes that I like to cure my cannabis thing, get rid of, or at least lower the levels.

3:11:29Archive SeedsI agree that the lemon peel strain that I have is offensive after a while. It's like if you smoke just that, it just becomes like you're harshed out on it in more ways than one.

3:11:41SpeakerIn California, I used to dry my cannabis for two weeks in the dark and then cure it for anywhere from a couple months to even three and four months for some of the hazes. And, uh, When I didn't, I would get laryngitis every year at harvest time. Smoking too fresh of extreme herpy stuff.

3:12:09Archive SeedsAnd for that, what was your curing process between that, you know, month and or two months?

3:12:16SpeakerFor curing, I would put it in a box at a low room temperature and basically seal it away for anywhere from four weeks to 12 weeks.

3:12:32Archive SeedsLike a sealed box or like a wood or cardboard box?

3:12:35SpeakerThank you for joining us.

3:12:54SpeakerLike curing, you know, beef or cheese or almost any other product that requires curing. It produced a much smoother, easier to smoke bud. I don't even smoke buds anymore. I haven't for years, but... That is what I used to do. And in California, every year I got laryngitis from smoking too fresh. In other words, I only dried it for two weeks and then I started trying it.

3:13:28SpeakerAnd yeah. Sam, I wonder if it's the myrcene. I don't know if it's myrcene. I think it was one of the monoterpenes that had low... I mean, higher volatility because after a few weeks, a few months of curing, it had no problem. And a friend of mine had a variety he called KGB. It was an Afghan variety. Seeds were from Afghanistan. And when he grew these and the people would manicure it, When it was mature and he cut the branches up, people would manicure.

3:14:14SpeakerIf it touched their skin or their face or anything, they'd break out with big red wells. But yet, if you dried it for a couple weeks and then you cured it for any time at all, you can handle it with no problems at all. So there was something in the volatile terpenes or vials or something. That was causing this. I mean, people would get it on their hands and then they would wipe their eyes and they wouldn't be able to see for a couple hours.

3:14:51Archive SeedsI've experienced this.

3:14:54Collin PalmerI got to run, everyone. Have a good day. The other thing, centrifuges, but that's a whole topic. Dude, you're hilarious.

3:15:04BubblemanYou've been saying I got to run for like 10, First it was in one chat, then you were in the other chat.

3:15:11SpeakerI love your commitment, dude. I love your commitment. Well, Colin, you know what's good for the runs? It's cannabis.

3:15:18Collin PalmerNo. No, I really just got to... I'm going to go for a hike and I got to...

3:15:27Collin PalmerI have some things that I committed to, so I got to run. I got to get to that. That's what I mean. So nice to see you. Enjoy this beautiful weather. Yeah, that's that's what's going down. So it's we're really lucky. The first day of fall. Yeah, no, it really is. It's great. So big love to everybody. Thank you so much for the conversation. And Fletch, it was awesome to see you, Brian.

3:15:52Collin PalmerEveryone, peace. Thanks, everybody.

3:15:58Bryan Best Friend FarmsHey, Sam, did you cure your branches on the whole branch or did you snip?

3:16:03SpeakerYeah, normally that's what I would do. I have done it both ways, but normally I would just do it with the whole branches, maybe a few of the shade leaves removed. But then I would, before I smoked the herb, I always manicured it by hand very, very well. Right on. Thanks.

3:16:27Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, Fletch, let me go back to that question you were asking before. I've done a little more thinking about this. So like a lot, what's going on, like even with live resin pens, you know, like, well, and this is mostly just due to, you know, prohibition, right? So people will use live resin to basically flavor distillate, right? Because distillate's cheap. It's basically a commodity. It doesn't have a whole lot of taste.

3:16:58Dr Mark ScialdoneIt should have zero taste whatsoever. But now they can call that a live resin pen, right? Because they're using basically live resin in the terpenes to basically flavor distillate, to make a distillate. Just slash live resin pen, right? So, I mean, essentially you could do the same thing with hash, right?

3:17:26Archive SeedsYeah, I don't see why not.

3:17:28Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, and so you're, yeah, I mean, is it solventless? No, because to make the distillate, they probably did some ethyl.

3:17:38Archive SeedsCan we just say THCA that's been, your THCA part of your hash that's been stripped of its terps and now cooked down, that's basically distillate as well, right?

3:17:49Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, liquid nails or liquid diamond strips.

3:17:52Archive SeedsI mean, we can call it liquid nails if you like.

3:17:56BubblemanYou heard it here first on Hash Church. I like that.

3:18:00Archive SeedsHot dog water. These, you know, we started all here.

3:18:04Dr Mark ScialdoneBut, but isn't it true? I mean, again, like, I don't know with the purist, if they find out that you're basically cutting your, your solvent list pen with distillate, just be turned off by that product because, oh, it's got, are you kidding me?

3:18:18BubblemanThe most popular pens are like distillate with botanical terms in them. Yeah. And you can.

3:18:26Dr Mark ScialdoneRather than adding botanical terps, we want to add Fletch's hat. And to me, it's like, if you're getting the actual profile from the plant, that's the most valuable phytochemicals in cannabis. It's not necessarily the cannabinoids, right? It's the flavor. It's like what humans are really drawn to. And now that you could synthesize THC for a whole lot cheaper than you could extract it and grow it and purify it from cannabis, you know, maybe that's the play.

3:18:58Dr Mark ScialdoneThe play is really how do you turn bulk, flavorless, vanilla cannabinoid into really strain-specific cannabis? Good taste in products, right?

3:19:11SpeakerTHC, if you make the diamonds by pressing them, in other words, making rosin, it'll settle out better. That's still solventless.

3:19:30Archive SeedsYeah, yeah, but the... Like it's unfortunately most strains once you separate, do all that mechanical process to the resin, it's not going to be like usable in a pen. At the end of the day, like solventless pens is to me more of a novelty than it is like a reproducible product at a reasonable price that people can actually afford. So, you know, but I was just thinking of, you know, pens are becoming so popular.

3:20:04Archive SeedsWhy, you know, everybody, not everybody, but a lot of people make their pens by heating both fractions together. And it just doesn't taste nearly as good as... Look, I prefer... Anything that hasn't been, I call it already been chewed, right? You remember the already been chewed gum, right? Once you've already added heat, added some other shit to it, I'm over it, right? Like I want it clean, straight off the plant, intact trichome heads, water hash, dry sift.

3:20:36Archive SeedsRosin's cool, but I still think it's a little cooked. Like there's a lot of strains that Before the rosin, I love the hash. After the rosin, don't care for it, really. It's just certain terpenes get, terps and thiols get cooked off during the rosin process. And it's like, well, what do you expect? You cooked it up halfway to its combustion point.

3:21:02SpeakerWell, you can do low temperature rosin presses where it stays pretty intact.

3:21:11Archive SeedsYeah, yeah, but most of these like turps and stuff that we're talking about have like they're volatile at room temperature or less than room temperature even. So once you're volatile in the fridge, 180 for a minute or two minutes, that stuff's cooked, converted. It's not the same. I mean, there's a lot of strains like cookies and stuff that do not make it through the rosin process at all.

3:21:32Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah.

3:21:33BubblemanSo your perspective, your perspective flex comes from the fact that you have access to all these incredible cultivars. You have access to making really nice hash and you have the palette that can perceive the subtle nuances that many others would miss. And so that whole sort of connection Thanks for watching.

3:22:07BubblemanIt's way less. So most people are happy with their floor sweepings and their botanical turps sprayed on.

3:22:12Archive SeedsI agree. And we're just talking like what the best process at the end of the day, we're all about quality here. As far as I can tell, I'm exactly on par with you. Yeah, I'm just talking about what kind of processes couldn't we improve to hopefully maybe inspire some people to produce a better quality product for the consumer.

3:22:30BubblemanWell, people growing better weed and making better hash, growing better weed and making hash would be a good start because I think that most rosin is not six star bubble. It's like a mediocre bubble hash that just wouldn't dab on their banger that they had to, you know, it was, listen, the exact same thing happened with BHO. Bubble hash and BHO kind of came out on the market at a very similar time.

3:22:55BubblemanAnd in the early days, I would get the odd person would be like, send me a picture and their hash would look just like yours. And they'd be like, did I do it right? And I'm like, oh, dude, you literally have some of the best hash in the world with you now. 99% of other people would write me and say, oh, it just came out weird and sandy.

3:23:14BubblemanIt won't stick together. How do I get it to melt like yours? And then I'd be like, oh my God, do I really want to answer this question? Oh, it's just like a 20 year rabbit hole that you have to go down in order to learn what that is. And so BHO was this alternative where they could just take their subpar bud, blast it, and now they had a golden honey oil.

3:23:34BubblemanFor the most part, before the connoisseurs of that product came to be and the subtle nuances of that product of taking a 90 micron bubble hash and blasting that into BHO is going to create a very different quality BHO than some mediocre flowers.

3:23:50SpeakerAnd so, yeah, that's... Also, if you have really good buds, if you dry sift it, I was lucky to get a 3% yield. With Waterhash, you can get 10 or even higher in extreme situations.

3:24:08BubblemanDude, if you're on Instagram, they get 40%, man.

3:24:10SpeakerAnd with BHO, they get quite literally 99% of the available THC.

3:24:20SpeakerWell, if your sole goal is flavor compounds, why not just use R134A? Because I've never had anything that tasted more flavorful than that for all extractions across the board. I don't know how many of you here have actually had R134A. Everybody has their own idea what they consider flavorful. There is no single flavor that's the best for everybody. Just like there's no variety of cannabis that's the best for everybody.

3:24:46SpeakerEverybody has unique preferences. My point was with the refrigerants, you're getting a lot of those alcohol-bonded cannabinoids and those lighter terpenes that are just getting obliterated in hydrocarbons or even just doing the drying process for bubble hash and stuff, a lot of that stuff's evaporating before it ever actually gets to be smoked, right? So it's the one method at least that I've seen that you can get and have some test results for that you can actually get those types of preservations, but if you don't do it right and you burn it too hot, that gas is pretty toxic if you don't purge it properly, so...

3:25:19SpeakerMore severe consequences than VHO if you don't purge it, but it definitely, I mean, it makes a cartridge ready oil in, you know, an hour.

3:25:28Dr Mark ScialdoneAre you using the Pure 5 extraction machine?

3:25:31SpeakerNo, I actually designed my own before they had theirs. I have one that does about 14 pounds at a time. If I want to run them all, I have three columns on my machine, but I designed it all from scratch. We had to go down to Houston to get our columns because I wanted everything to stay pressurized. You have a power failure and not have to worry about overpressuring it with the, you know, if the chiller failed or something like that.

3:25:52SpeakerSo everything is to 6,000 PSI or better on the design it for a while.

3:25:58Dr Mark ScialdoneAre you doing multiple cycles? Like, are you grabbing your terps and then taking out, decarving, and then doing another secondary extraction? Or are you just doing one extraction?

3:26:09SpeakerWe're doing everything in one extraction because when we've done two or three passes, the yield on the second and third passes was so abysmally low that even playing around with PSIs and temperatures, it didn't seem like there was much of a point. Definitely getting something, but it didn't seem like there was, you know, you can adjust some of the factors with some of the variables without getting too technical with it, but And not pull out quite as much of the heavier stuff and a lot more of the terpenes.

3:26:38SpeakerBut that's the only thing that we've done as far as experimenting on that. But it took a while to figure out the right PSI and temperature range. We started this back in 2011 or 2012. Oh, cool. Making one of these from scratch. And I've got three different prototypes I've built so far.

3:26:54Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd have you gotten regulatory approval to use that?

3:26:59SpeakerYeah, and we actually were using it legally in Oklahoma for a bit, and I'm going to go through the hoops here in California to try and let them use it out here, so we'll see how that goes.

3:27:08Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, because in a lot of states, including California, they're trying to phase out 134A because the way that the refrigeration business works is they're constantly... You know, reinventing the refrigerants that are used and for all automobiles. And, you know, residential and commercial refrigeration units. Yeah, 134A was the refrigerant of choice, but it still has a high global warming potential. And what's out there right now, I don't know if you're familiar with this new one.

3:27:47Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's a new one from Honeywell that has zero global warming potential, but it's expensive as hell. And it's an ether, so it's not 134A, it's just a fluorohydrocarbon, right? This has got an ether in it, so I don't think it would be good for cannabis extraction. But it's crazy, we tried to get the 134A extraction going up here in Vermont, and yeah, it's so new that some people are like, oh my God, they're just scared of it, so they think it's bad right away.

3:28:24Dr Mark ScialdoneIt doesn't require C1D1 maroon because it's not flammable. And last I checked, nobody's really regulating, you know, refrigerators or air conditioner units. So it's pretty, it's pretty darn safe. And it's really interesting that you said that it is really good terpene profile. I found the same thing. I went, I met with the Pier 5 guys out in California. And I thought the oil was great, but they did two passes.

3:28:54Dr Mark ScialdoneThey claim that they get a much better terpene pull when they do it under a certain set of conditions, get their terpenes. Then what they do is they take, I think it's like a five pound sock or something like that. They just take that material out. They put that into an oven, they decarb the weed, and then they go back and they grab the cannabinoids and then mix the two together, I guess.

3:29:19SpeakerI actually used one of their machines at a facility in Oklahoma. And the thing that I didn't like about their machine is their recovery temperature they have for that is, in my opinion, set way too high. We do our recovery at a much, much lower temperature for solvent recovery. And I think that that's why there's a big difference in the flavor between their product and our product is just the recovery temperatures being, you know, much different in how they go about it.

3:29:44SpeakerAnd we're drawing a much heavier vacuum than they do.

3:29:47Dr Mark ScialdoneDo you do a secondary purge to get things below? Oh, yeah.

3:29:53SpeakerYeah, we run everything back down to negative 15 PSI before we even open the chamber.

3:29:59Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so the labs down there test for residual 134A?

3:30:02SpeakerYeah, you can test for residual 134A. You usually have to go through a non-cannabis thing. But officially, according to the cannabis regulations, no, there's no residual solvent testing for our 134A that I'm aware of that I've ever seen.

3:30:15Dr Mark ScialdoneRight, but it's not anything that you want in a dabble or a vape.

3:30:19SpeakerOh, for sure, yeah, yeah.

3:30:20Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. You don't want any of that stuff. Well, actually, though, here's the God's honest truth. It actually is approved as a propellant for medium-dosed inhalers. So when you see somebody using an albuterol inhaler who's an asthmatic... That gas that's pushing that drug into their lungs is 134A. So it really, it has a low toxicity profile because I guess you exhale it. You don't, you don't, but it falls into that general class of not the forever molecules, but just, you know, whenever you put Florine and carbon together.

3:31:05Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's no natural molecules that have that bond in it. So it's it's kind of like it's part of that forever chemical family, which are these things that don't degrade in the environment like PFAS.

3:31:20SpeakerMark even if it's safe to inhale like in a asthma device that doesn't necessarily mean that it's safe to smoke no so it's it's toxic above it's like 680 or 700 degrees fahrenheit it breaks down into a toxic compound but Unless you're doing a red hot nail or your friend's just a total dumbass on your dab rig. For the average educated cannabis user, it's not going to be in the temperature range that would do it.

3:31:51SpeakerBut you wouldn't want to drop it and then put it on a hot nail or something like that.

3:31:57Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's going to make HF, hydrogen fluoride. And for those of you who are familiar with Breaking Bad, that's what he used to dissolve that bathtub and the... In that one scene, right? I mean, there's nothing that that stuff eats through glass, eats through metal. The only thing it doesn't eat through is plastic.

3:32:18BubblemanIt's totally safe for your lungs though.

3:32:20SpeakerNo. It's easy to recover all of it though with the right temperature, you know, the right chillers and have a tank scale and you can, you know, ensure that you actually recover.

3:32:31Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, that's one of the things that the regulators asked us about. They were like, how much of this stuff are you recovering? Like how often do you need to top off the tank? And, you know, again, I guess one of the concerns is, is that You know, here in Vermont, I mean, it's totally legal in New Hampshire. It's totally legal in New York. It's totally legal in Massachusetts.

3:32:51Dr Mark ScialdoneAll the states that surround by us, 134A is fine. But here in Vermont, we're going to take a stand and we're going to phase 134A out. Well, check it out. I went down to the Costco. And checked out the refrigerators and freezers there. I took a photo of the serial number and then went home, looked on the internet. Guess what refrigerator? Are in the refrigerators and freezers here in the Costco in room 134A.

3:33:20Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, yeah, I think the mission is noble, right? Trying to phase out high global warming potential solvents. But, you know, in the world of commerce we live in, this is, you know, this is like throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon.

3:33:38SpeakerWell, it's used heavily in perfume production and lubricant oil production, like plant oil production.

3:33:44Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd in the aerospace industry, shit, they have spray guns where they're spraying parts and it's just coming all over the place. Yeah.

3:33:55Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd unlike CO2, you're...

3:33:58SpeakerYour employee survives as you get a line that blows off or someone falls into the machine and opens the valve accidentally or something. There's no danger to the people in the room, which is one of the reasons why I think it's safer than a lot, certainly safer than CO2, that's for sure.

3:34:13Archive SeedsI mean, can you, can you purge all the R134A off and is there mystery oil in it?

3:34:22SpeakerSo yes, a hundred, you actually bring up a great point. So we buy, you can actually buy R134A medical grade that they use for like hospitals and different types of stuff.

3:34:30Dr Mark ScialdoneThey use it for meter dose inhalers. Yeah.

3:34:32SpeakerYeah, exactly. So when we take those big tanks, which is what we use for our source, there's, we have to do three purges before we actually get three really clean oil. There's like machine oil.

3:34:43Archive SeedsYeah, you get oil out of it and run it dry. Is that right?

3:34:47SpeakerYeah, we just, we do dry purge it until it's empty. You know, it usually takes about four purges when we get fresh gas before we can get any, and anyone that's worked with BHO on a closed loop has dealt with it far worse than we have, but it does leave behind, you know, we had about eight to 14 grams of Just shit oil in each of the tanks that we got.

3:35:06SpeakerSo it was pretty high. That's officially called mystery oil. Yep.

3:35:13Archive SeedsI mean, that's my official term at this point. I don't know what else to call it. I mean, I know everybody else, you know, have we gotten past that? It's still a mystery to me. I feel like some people feel like it's something of the past and I still feel like it's still in there.

3:35:29Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know what just reminds me of Fletch. Remember we used to make fun of that Mr. Extractor dude? Remember that guy with the black gloves? He had like a three-piece suit, you know, scantily clad women, black gloves. What happened to that guy, Mr. Extractor?

3:35:47Archive SeedsThere's been a lot of those. There's been a lot of those.

3:35:49Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, but that guy in particular, he's history. I haven't seen him in a couple of years. Maybe he blew himself up. Yeah, maybe he did. Maybe he did. You know, at one point, yeah, they did do it. I forget the group, but they did a really thorough analysis of everything that's in there. And a lot of them, Sam, a lot of that stuff is lubricants that are used like when they're doing the couplings of these of these connectors together, like they're transferring gas from one tank to a truck.

3:36:21Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, there's lubricant.

3:36:22SpeakerAn article I read also said that there was coatings on the gas tanks. That's right. And that was being stripped off.

3:36:34Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, they degrade after a while because when you get, even if you just get like a hairline, Crack. It'll start. You'll start to get corrosion and then the coating will start peeling away from the side of the tank. So there's all kinds of shit you can get in there. But I think, again, I want to say there is a group and I don't know if Michael Backus was involved.

3:36:58Dr Mark ScialdoneI thought he was, but Someone out in California basically paid out of their own pocket to do a very thorough analysis of what mystery oil was. And they almost figured it all out. So that, yeah, that was done maybe about five or six years ago.

3:37:14SpeakerMy understanding is that it was the lubricant oil for the pumps they use for the compression.

3:37:18BubblemanThat's right. That's a big. I think that's a part, a portion of it. I definitely think that's a portion of it. I mean, there's other things in there for certain. I have another question.

3:37:31Archive SeedsIf the government actually regulated that there could be absolutely no adulterants to cannabis at all, right? Or in terms of like extracts, particularly pens and all that stuff, what percentage or what processes could even be used?

3:37:52Etienne FontanWell, that's a good question.

3:37:53Archive SeedsIt's like we're saying R134A or butane, these all have a mystery oil component. It may be minute, but if there was any presence of anything, the government's like, hey, that's not wheat. This is some, you know, processed product, essentially.

3:38:09SpeakerIt has a mystery oil, but you're purging.

3:38:10Archive SeedsHow many processes would we have left? Just dry sift, water hash, you know.

3:38:14SpeakerBut if you smoke dry sift or water hash at too high of a temperature, you're creating... New mystery compounds out of what you're smoking. And that plant made it. It's only present until you distill it the first few times, right? So you just run the machine empty, distill it, clean it. And after that, you've purged it, you know, and you can distill it as many times as you need to to get it out.

3:38:39Archive SeedsBut that product won't test at all for any hydrocarbons like what's in that pen then.

3:38:47SpeakerIf your purging procedures is proper and you're running everything properly, then you shouldn't have any residuals.

3:38:52BubblemanHow many people do you think in the cannabis industry can run things properly? That's a better question. 15%, 20%. 50%. So it's inevitable. That's what all these processes are inevitable about, that depending on how you've talked about the labs and how that can be manipulative to be either incentivized or decentivized, i.e. giving you accurate numbers and fail rates that are actually accurate to your scenario. Oh, I don't want to go to that lab.

3:39:24BubblemanIt just seems like the inevitable is that there's a ton of For a better word, like, you know, people that are just not following like safe protocols or the best that they can. And I guess it's always going to be that way in every industry, probably. I mean, my God, we're talking about things in cannabis extracts, like look at some of the stuff in processed foods. It's literally like a complete and total poison.

3:39:49BubblemanI don't know why anyone would be surprised to think that there's also going to be some poisons. I mean, tobacco cigarettes have radioactive nucleotides sprayed on them and

3:39:58Dr Mark Scialdonealcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs on the planet it just seems that uh yeah what potent's talking about though is that once you do multiple distillations of store-bought gas you have clean gas oh i know what he's talking about there's no residual but the issue is that is that like in order in order to do that in a production facility where again these cannabis companies are just trying to get the profitability So they're trying to, you know, increase productivity out the door.

3:40:31Dr Mark ScialdoneIf you're going to top off your solvent tank, you're going to have to need basically another system just to distill your solvent. So now you're going to have to have another system in there just for distilling solvent, because when you top off your tank, if you've ever seen just basically a tank from air supply or wherever your gas provider is, And if people are just topping off out of the tank, now you're getting more mystery oil back in the system.

3:40:57Dr Mark ScialdoneSo it doesn't make a difference how many times you distill. If you're topping off from your store-bought tank, you're putting mystery oil back into the system. So it really is going to hammer on your productivity if you have to redistill every time you have to top off your tank, right? Because now you're basically doing blank runs to basically remove any mystery oil you just add from topping off your tank, right?

3:41:21Dr Mark ScialdoneSo there's a problem.

3:41:22SpeakerYou can top it off with tanks of already pre-purged.

3:41:27Dr Mark ScialdonePre-purged, right. But in order to do that, Sam, you're going to have to basically have another system for pre-purging.

3:41:35SpeakerWe actually have that. We have a squat column just for that, for topping off that we can pressurize for that exact reason.

3:41:42Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah.

3:41:44Archive SeedsSo, you know, of the 15, 20%, how many of them are doing that too? It's like, if it's a 90% chance that you're going to get product that's not done properly, why are these processes so ubiquitous?

3:42:00SpeakerWell, anyone using hydrocarbons, butane, all that should know that already. Like, you should be doing that with your butane if you're doing butane extraction before you run your flower. Like, You know, this is pretty standard stuff if you're doing any kind of, you know, proper, you know, any kind of GMP type stuff.

3:42:18BubblemanWell, yeah, GMP, but what's the incentive for a rec market for these people to do things properly when the buyers are so eager to buy like floor sweepings with distillate and botanical turps sprayed on them? It's to create like such a margin killer, right? Where you just have these processes that are like, oh, I just need to, you know, have this column for this specific thing. And it just seems like a lot of work for, I mean, I guess, hey, if the sales are happening and people are like, this is way terpier and way tastier than everything and it's catching on and it's, But I mean, even like Fletch said, he releases like full melt dry sift onto his market at his store and people just don't get it.

3:42:56BubblemanIt goes right over their heads. Like I would have bought all of it, dude.

3:43:00SpeakerYeah, but what's the price compared to the water hash or the or the right at a similar THC percentage?

3:43:10Etienne FontanWhen when when. You know, Frenchie came to me with his original hash that that's done right. There's just nothing on the market to compare it to because everything on the market was produced in such a low quality way that the retail cost of what they're asking originally wholesale. It made it curious for the person, but when it's a new product, it was scary. But once people tried it, they were like, oh shit, this is a different product altogether and understanding.

3:43:45Etienne FontanSo this is the part where we as the dispensaries have our part to educate the consumer when they come in about the differences on these and these products. And that's one thing we've always focused on is- Education, but few of us do that.

3:44:03SpeakerIt's the same problem at Gen with extremely long flowering varieties. You know, the manufacturer has to charge more than for a short flowering variety. And that's the way the cookie crumbles.

3:44:20Etienne FontanBut the consumer will, the educated consumer will pay for it if they know it's available, such as when I had like Swazi come through and very rare genetics like that come through. Those that were educated knew what it was and understood the price point because of its exotic nature. But it takes an educated consumer base, such as what I have in Berkeley and in the Bay Area to do that.

3:44:46Etienne FontanThat necessarily won't work in, you know, Eastern Kentucky. You know what I'm saying?

3:44:51SpeakerYou can see the big push towards auto varieties because they're so fast.

3:44:59Etienne FontanAnd yeah, there's even an auto flower cup, I think. Yeah, so there's even competitions for auto flowering cannabis. I know Jeremy Norrie, he did the secret cup competition. Um, uh, documentary. And so he, he's involved with that auto flowering cup. And I think they're actually looking for judges now. So, um, if you, you look on social medias.

3:45:26SpeakerFirst autos were made by Neville, uh, and auto hybrids. Uh, I tried them. I wouldn't smoke them. They were just garbage. Now I've smoked autos, which are in fact pretty damn good, except for that I like growing five pound plants.

3:45:47Etienne FontanSo they're small yielders is what you're saying?

3:45:51SpeakerI have not seen an auto that will give you five pounds.

3:45:57Etienne FontanThere you go, people.

3:46:04Etienne FontanBut I have to agree, the quality of autoflower has gotten better over the decades for sure. But because the earlier things that we had heard about them, they did not look sexy compared to other quality genetics.

3:46:24BubblemanSorry, I was just talking to my son there for a second.

3:46:27Etienne FontanSounds like it's bong hit time, leveling the conversation. We should probably all just figure of doing something.

3:46:34BubblemanWell, we got 15 minutes left too, and I definitely, you know, I always want to hear.

3:46:38Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, we're doing 420k when we need them, right? Bong rip. Bong rip, mother lovers.

3:46:47BubblemanBut I'd love to hear from, I'd love to hear from Wade. We haven't, even if it's just a hello and a short little blip, I always appreciate hearing from Wade and if you've got anything to share.

3:46:58SpeakerCan you guys hear me all right while I'm wearing these headphones?

3:47:02BubblemanIt's a little bit muffled.

3:47:04SpeakerLet me take them off.

3:47:06BubblemanYeah, you sound so much better without them. Sorry, Wade, give you extra work.

3:47:14SpeakerYeah. Can you hear me all right now? Okay. Um, I'm doing pretty good today. I had a, maybe the most hellish day since I was diagnosed four years ago, this past week, for some reason or another, my, uh, my heart got excited. Um, I was supposed to do a medical procedure that morning and, uh, To put a real blunt point on it, it brought on a panic attack, the idea of this procedure, and it persisted through the day.

3:47:55SpeakerIt was pretty miserable. Mostly, the issue was rapid heart rate again. Today, I'm doing pretty good on that front. And what caused it, Wade? Was it fear of fear?

3:48:11SpeakerI'm sorry, give it to me again. What was the problem? Was it fear of fear? In other words, a lot of people used to smoke cannabis and if they got too high, they would white out or they would throw up or whatever. And it was all fear of fear because if you're not afraid of the cannabis experience, then it didn't happen.

3:48:38SpeakerGood question. No, my issue was actually this procedure required me to abstain from cannabis preparations. So I was told that it was a 20 to 25 minute procedure and I needed to fast for eight hours beforehand. So I did. I didn't take any of my, I'm a heavy user of edibles and tinctures. So I didn't do any of that. I showed up at this appointment and then learned that I was going to have to sit for a couple of hours.

3:49:14SpeakerI was already in pain from the trip down and didn't have any of my preps. And then, yeah, they wanted to put me into a, they're very excited about a new PET scanner. And basically the procedure involved me being put into a full body length tube for 25 minutes. Which in and of itself sounds like no big deal, but I couldn't deal. So I said no. And I came home and I took my preparations and tinctures and whatnot.

3:49:50SpeakerAnd things got better. My heart rate was a buck and a quarter when I got home. And within an hour or two, got it below 100. But it persisted all day. That was really a fucked situation, I got to say. But today and what's true is all of my doctors that I'm working with so far, nobody can really tell me why this is happening. It first cropped up about six months ago.

3:50:17SpeakerI think it's probably related to some of the drugs I was given as part of my chemotherapy treatment. I can't. Verify that. It's all new to me. What's going on for me? I've said this before. My body is not having a great time these days. My spirit and my heart, that comes and goes. I got to be honest. There are definitely some days that day I was like, why am I doing this?

3:50:48SpeakerHoly fuck. This is part of my language. But yeah, it felt pretty unpleasant to say. I was happy to get a couple of PET scans when I had an X-ray and they said that I was having a...

3:51:11SpeakerI had a PET scan a few months later and they showed that it was a lumbar hernia and the treatment that they were giving me from the x-ray was incorrect. And so I found the PET scan to be extremely useful in my case. Yes, I've had a couple of PET scans already. My real issue was I wasn't prepared for what they wanted me to do. I've since talked to my doctors and they said, oh, We're sorry.

3:51:45SpeakerYou can use your cannabis preparations before your next visit. And I will reschedule and I'll go do it. I've done it. I spent an hour and a half in an MRI machine one day. I can do it. I just wasn't ready that day. I understand completely. And luckily, my doctors didn't care if I was high on cannabis when I got my MRI, so it made it really simple and easy for me.

3:52:17SpeakerYes. Yes, it really brought home to me how important cannabis products are for my quality of life, for how I feel on any given day. It makes a huge difference. Yeah, and it's just as important to habit rather than not habit. Yeah, I understand completely. It's why I love your whole point about everybody should have access to however much they want whenever they want. I couldn't agree more, Sam.

3:52:55SpeakerThis is a plant that doesn't do harm. It's such an incredible gift to us human beings. It's really unreasonable, the fear that's grown around this plant in our lifetimes. It's not really the fear of cannabis. It's the fear of change. The good old boys wanted the way it was and wanted to be that way forever.

3:53:27Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, because they have a vested interest to keep it the way it was forever. Hey, Wade, doesn't this new hemp ban that Governor Newsom put into place really detrimental to patients like yourself and others who basically rely on low THC, high CBD medicine that comes from hemp?

3:53:53SpeakerIt's a great question. I know Dr. Bonnie Goldstein, for example, was an ardent opponent of that bill because it was going to cut off the... Oh, it wasn't a bill.

3:54:06Dr Mark ScialdoneIt was an executive action, right? I think it failed legislatively... In the California Senate, but I think he made it, he calls this hemp thing an emergency, and he's done an emergency executive action by banning all hemp products in the state of California, right? I think that I might have that wrong, but I think that's the way it is.

3:54:33SpeakerTo be honest, Mark, I'm not really up to speed on the latest developments there. I believe you're correct. There's a particular focus on inhalable products being banned here in California, the gas station variety, if you will.

3:54:52Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. I think they wanted to quench that, but I don't think. That they knew that by putting this broad sweeping thing out there that they were going to impact basically the epileptic children who rely on CBD tinctures that have a little bit of THC in it to basically keep them seizure free.

3:55:16SpeakerMy understanding is that you can still do those under California law, but it has to be through the regulated THC market and the standard dispensary market. So you can still have those products available, but they're not in that unregulated hemp market.

3:55:28Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. So I think, I think where the issue is, is that like some of those products like are like 6,000 milligrams in a dropper bottle, you'll be lucky if you find a 600 milligram, uh, Thank you for joining us.

3:55:53Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, your medical patients, really the moms of these epileptic children are relying on the kind of, you know, Charlotte Figge kind of products. So, you know, high CBD, low THC. And I just don't think that the medicinal aspects of that are covered by the products in the dispensaries. That said, I don't live in California, so I don't go to California dispensaries. And I really don't know what's out there, but that's just what I understand.

3:56:21SpeakerThere's limits on milligrams in any one product, and there's also the cost factor, particularly to the families you're speaking of.

3:56:30Dr Mark ScialdoneWait a second, ATN owns a dispensary, right?

3:56:34Etienne FontanYes, I do, and I have no problem if they would allow us to have those products in our dispensaries. The problem is that they didn't allow them in the dispensaries. And next thing you know, they yeah, there's just always been a separation between the two. And I wish they would because people are looking for, you know, diverse levels of THC and CBD products. And currently the consumer is not getting it at the dispensary level.

3:57:05Etienne FontanSo. Those products are there. We shouldn't be making them illegal. We should be putting them in places where by law we should be able to sell them as well as to educate the consumer and filter through the products via the consumer's feedback. You know what I'm saying? Which is how we deal with a lot of products, right? I think he was pressured to say the product sucks.

3:57:31Etienne FontanWe don't carry it or purchase it again. If it's good, then that becomes part of the rotation. And if we don't get that feedback from the consumer and the patient, then we don't know otherwise. So that's another reason to keep that constant conversation. You know, a lot of our bud tenders are known by name to our people and vice versa, because that's how Well, they keep that conversation going.

3:57:56Etienne FontanAnd I encourage other dispensaries to do so too, to constantly engage and inform and receive that feedback from the consumer. It's so vital. Otherwise, you know, what are you doing?

3:58:10Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, I think there's a lawsuit right now. I can't remember the name of the dispensary, but there's a couple of dispensaries in Southern California that have gotten together in a class action lawsuit. ATN, you might be more familiar with this that are suing. Thank you for joining us.

3:58:45Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you for joining us today.

3:59:10Dr Mark ScialdoneHave been basically shown, you know, to to basically keep these kids seizure free. And so the article that was an SF gate on last Thursday that I covered on high at nine news on Friday was basically said that that people in California are panic buying. So they're going out there and buying all kinds of stuff. Sometimes, again, maybe from not the right sources. But I mean, I think it's difficult because those folks believe that, again, if you look at the hemp, We're just the farm bill.

3:59:47Dr Mark ScialdoneIt says below this level of THC is legal hemp. But if you put it in a bottle and try to sell it in California today, you can't do it. So I think where Gavin stepped in the wrong way was, I get it. He wanted to basically take synthetic THC out of the market, right? But in doing that, by Thank you for joining us.

4:00:25Etienne FontanIt's just always been a constant challenge. I never understood that if it's THC, then we're the THC sellers. So therefore, you know, have it come through us and then to not go there has unfortunately led to because it would have been a boost to us dispensaries as well as it would have been to You know, patients and access to, you know, potentially nudge those regular providers into, you know, other, you know, products, product lines, or more, most importantly, different ratios, right?

4:00:56Etienne FontanBecause that's what we learn. Everybody's ratios are different. And everybody's trying to figure out what that is. And it's very hard when all you have available is one to one, 20 to one, you know, and a couple of, you know, in between. Humans are so subjective along with cannabis that they need all types so that people can find their, where do they slot in, right? Of all these varietals, which are the ones that are the all-stars for them, right?

4:01:29Dr Mark ScialdoneRight.

4:01:31SpeakerThese would probably need to have extracts of single cannabinoid varieties that patients could blend and test themselves to see what it is the ratio they want.

4:01:47BubblemanWade has his hand up, so I'll go to Wade next.

4:01:51SpeakerThank you, Marcus. And Sam, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm fortunate enough, our local dispensary, I have to say I encouraged them to do so. And ATN has a similar program. We call it the Compassion Program. And basically, if you have a recommendation from your physician that suggests you might benefit from the use of cannabis, depending on what your condition is, you can get different products from our local dispensary at no cost.

4:02:24SpeakerThey give them to me for free. And I'm very fortunate that way. I'm well enough known at the local dispensary that they comb the shelves for whatever I might want or need. And somehow it finds its way into the compassion program. So I'm very blessed that way. But you've called out a real issue here. What's problematic is that we've tried to make products from hemp Some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, we're going to be talking about some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, we're going to be talking about some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, And ideally, cannabis products might more accurately reflect the diversity that's available in the hemp products realm.

4:03:28SpeakerAnd really, it's all just a nightmare based on prohibition and the residuals of prohibition. And I know last week we got into Wade's history, and I talked about being a Boy Scout and smoking cannabis. And I wanted to, I know we're about to close here, so I wanted to share a little piece of history from my life. Back in 1971, Wade was a

4:03:58SpeakerWhat was my title? I was the chair of a steering committee for the National Explorer Post President's Congress. Long story short, this happened. I don't know if you can see the two characters in this picture, but that's Tricky Dick and Wade Laughter in the Oval Office. What? They're each other's ties.

4:04:27BubblemanHoly shit, dude. That is a fucking trip, dude. That's amazing.

4:04:34SpeakerWow. He would shake hands with anybody. Remember his photo op?

4:04:42BubblemanI like it, though. That's still pretty cool, man. That's wild. Never, never would have. You blow minds every week, dude. I'm telling you, from the Boy Scout origin puff story to the like shaking hands with Tricky Dick. That is, I'm definitely happy to end it on that note. That was hilarious and awesome. And I appreciate you, Wade, as always. I appreciate everyone who came in. Lawrence, thanks for coming in.

4:05:08BubblemanWe'll have to get you with your grower on here one of these days so we can talk more about the aeroponic system and Arise. And I'm sure they'll be able to find you. I'll put your contact information, your Instagram or whatever up on the... Description of this episode. And then thanks Skunk Man Sam for some awesome origin stories again today about just different things. I really enjoy those quite a bit and it's good to get them out.

4:05:36BubblemanThey might be here or there, but it's nice to just hear them and have them here at Hash Church, which I hope you think of as your online home. Always a pleasure to have Fletch come out from Archive Seeds. He's always getting us thinking about different things. I like the way his mind works. He's You know, the guy that brought us the really brought freeze dryers into the cannabis extraction world.

4:06:00BubblemanNo one was talking about them before. Fletch mentioned it and also that method of weighing the hash and then weighing, you know, in the banger and then weighing it after to really see the difference of how much you've melted versus the star rating system. It's really cool and I appreciate everything he does. Always happy to see you, Brian, Best Friend Farms. Thanks for coming out. Potent Ponics, thanks for making an appearance with us and sharing your vast levels of knowledge.

4:06:29BubblemanI'm sure Dr. Mark appreciated that as well. And thank you for coming out, Dr. Mark. And Dr. Arturo, we never got to really hear from you, but I'm glad that you popped in and hopefully next week we will hear from you. And thanks, Mike. Michael, who was here earlier, and Heston, who was here earlier, and Colin, who was here earlier. Hopefully, I didn't forget anyone, but oh, well, of course, all of the awesome people who watch the show each week.

4:06:55BubblemanThere's about 5,000 of you. So shout out to you guys. Bingo Lombardi holding the chat room down. John Maddox, Torp God, Lori Etterburn, all the cool folks in the chat. We appreciate you listening to us shoot the shit on a Sunday afternoon. We'll be back next Sunday to talk about more things cannabis and extraction related. And thanks for watching and tuning in. Peace out, everybody. We'll talk soon.

4:07:21Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you, Marcus. Happy fall, everybody. See you guys.

4:07:27BubblemanAdios, amigos.

4:07:30Etienne FontanYeah, ending on the