Breeding and Genetic Stability in Cannabis

0:00Etienne FontanRight. We're getting there.

0:03BubblemanRecording. Give us a few seconds here. I've had some technical difficulties this morning, but I think I'm getting it going. I think I'm getting it going.

0:28BubblemanOkay, I think we're Are we live? Are we live? Did we get you? Do we get there?

0:35BubblemanYes, I do believe we are live on YouTube. Wonderful. Okay, so let me bingo if you can copy and paste this into the old one that I'm not going to be getting on to. I'm gonna have to send out the link to everyone as well. So just give me a few minutes here, everybody. There's the YouTube link. And now I'm going to have to go and send the actual link to everyone via email because no one will have gotten it because I had to change the link.

1:06BubblemanWe're in a different link right now. So I'm going to go into sent and I'm going to find my hash church. There it is. We'll go reply. Sorry, everyone. New link. Please come in here. All right, and then we'll go click, copy, and ba-doop, ba-doop, ba-doop, ba-doop. That should be good. Sorry about that, everybody, but hey, better late than never. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:06BubblemanI'll send you that link. There's Chimera, I believe. Oops, this is the link now. All right.

2:21BubblemanOkay, let's see if we got anyone popping in here. No? Yeah, no stress, Alex. That's because you're not me. Trust me, this is all stress. It's like literally all stress. You can't even imagine when it's 8.59 and you go to go live and it just says, you don't have permission. And you're like, oh, okay. And got to go into the back end and open everything. Also, my mouse is dying.

2:43BubblemanI have about 2% on my mouse. So a little bit of a stressful morning, but it's all good. We'll get through it. We'll get through it. Welcome, everyone. We've got 116 people watching live right now. I went to bed very late last night and ate a lot of gummies, so I'm a little bit hungover. I'm not going to lie. I guess I could put these back on.

3:06BubblemanLet's see what we got here. One second, Ryan. I'm going to hear you as soon as I change my speaker to something that can actually hear instead of a microphone. There we go.

3:25BubblemanThere we go. No, that's not what we got. There you go.

3:30SpeakerMorning.

3:31BubblemanHey, good morning. Good morning, Ryan. Good morning, Kevin. How are you guys doing?

3:35SpeakerGood, Marcus. How about yourself?

3:37BubblemanWell, I had a little bit of technical difficulties this morning, you know, plus I'm all like, I ate a lot of gummies last night. I got higher than I thought I was going to. And I guess I woke up a little bit kind of hazy this morning. And then with the technical difficulties of YouTube telling me you can't stream, I was like, what the... Trying to figure it all out, but I'm good now.

3:58BubblemanWe're good. We had a pretty big landslide here in Lions Bay in my small community. We had a house get taken out by some mud and rock. I got a couple people here at my house this morning who are evacuated from their home because they're right below where this... Basically, this landslide came down, took out monster trees like they were nothing, and put like 50 of them right across the Sea to Sky Highway.

4:21BubblemanSo the highway up to Whistler has been closed for 24 hours, which is... Fairly unheard of. A lot of people travel up that highway, so. Wow.

4:31SpeakerLucky to have two people, no lives lost.

4:34BubblemanWell, you know what? I think there may have been, nothing's been said publicly, but I do believe a couple was in the house when it got taken out. So they're kind of looking for them and trying to figure that out. It hasn't really been publicized like in our community, but I do believe two people lost their lives. That's horrible. Yeah, tragedy. Yeah, it is definitely. Tragedy is a human necessity.

5:04BubblemanIt seems to give us perspective that is important, that sometimes we forget about. And so it is what it is. And hopefully those families are dealing with that. My father and my stepmother died tragically in a motorcycle accident. So I do know what it feels like to kind of get that call Where you're just like, what happened? Like, what? What? Like, and then just kind of, for me, I just collapsed.

5:30BubblemanVery similar to the old Italian woman in all black at the funeral who jumps on the casket and is crying. That was me at my dad's funeral. It was, I'd never really been, I'd never experienced a death like that in my life. And it was definitely not something I'd wish upon people yet. There was a value to it for certain and my psychedelic use immediately became the foundation of me not melting down.

5:56BubblemanI kind of got the idea of why people kind of need a religion or a faith of some type because if you don't have the psychedelic experience and you don't realize that a soul can exist outside of a body, Faith would probably be a close second that I would look for to have as a foundation to not... Otherwise, you're melting. You're straight. You're just... They're going to melt your brain when these things occur.

6:19BubblemanAnd I know Colin's going through it right now with his father. And I know my good buddy, Robert Laurie, his father just passed away the other day in hospice. So it's part of this... You know, it's this intense part of life and it's interesting that today we're going to talk about breeding because, you know, really what we are is breeders. We breed human beings and we come and we go and hopefully we can, you know, be cheerful while we're here.

6:42BubblemanAnd I'm really stoked that you guys all decided to come on today. Kevin, very happy to have you, man. You're always prolific in your speaking and everyone loves to hear what you have to say. And Ryan Lee has, you know, done so much, so much in the world of growing. And, you know, to not mention Skunk Man Sam would be ridiculous. Another gentleman that's, geez, some of the quotes you've said over the years, Sam, I mean, when Dr. Mark was talking about the trichome work, oh, I can't remember his name, Paul something.

7:13BubblemanHe's like, oh, and you're just like casually like, oh, yeah, I funded all his work. Almost thought it was a joke, but of course it wasn't.

7:19SpeakerThat was Dr. Paul Haley.

7:22BubblemanOh, Hillig, yeah. Hillig, yes, of course. So welcome, everybody.

7:28Ryan Dank AfWas Hillig at Malberg's lab, Sam?

7:31SpeakerAbsolutely correct. Rob was there first, and then after Rob had left, Hillig showed up and needed funding for his work, and I did it.

7:44Ryan Dank AfYeah, that lab did some amazing stuff. That was at Bloomington University in Indiana, I believe.

7:51SpeakerIt's kind of a shame he doesn't have the tools that exist today. But he did very good work with what he had. And besides funding the work, I also supplied a lot of the genetics that he tested when he came up with wide leaf drug, wide leaf hemp, narrow leaf drug, narrow leaf hemp, which is what I strongly believe in today.

8:18Ryan Dank AfYeah, I'd love to see that work redone because when they were doing those populations, they were doing the isozyme analysis, but they only used one or two individuals from each population. And I think that that really limited maybe what our understanding would have been. It would really be interesting... Thank you so much for joining us.

9:05Ryan Dank Afglass pipettes and they stretched them out to these really fine point tips and then they went and were digging into individual trichome heads to to collect samples and then running those samples through a i think it was a gc wasn't it mark

9:21SpeakerYeah, well, yeah, they used GC. They also used HPLC. I mean, they were agnostic as to what analytical tools they were using. But yeah, I mean, I think Carl, correct me if I'm wrong, Sam, I think was a graduate student? Yes, he's a PhD now, yes. Yeah, well, but back then when you funded him, it was during his graduate work, right? Yeah, absolutely correct. I went and visited him at Dr. Malberg's lab and Malberg wanted to go fishing with me, but that was not what I was there for.

10:05SpeakerIn that online archive, I think we posted it the other episode when we talked about this, right? There's an online archive that Some hemp. Oh my God, he showed up. Website that basically has access, open access to all his articles. If you go like the last three or four, Carl's a co-author on like all of that work towards the end. So yeah, very important stuff. And the other work that was really important was I think his grad student was named Sun or Sun?

10:44SpeakerIt's a Korean guy. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. He did fantastic work.

10:49Ryan Dank AfYeah. But interestingly enough, Mark Lewis just jumped in the room. He did his engineering work not far from Bloomington. And he really believes that a lot of that, that there was plants that would develop legs and walk out of that DEA licensed lab and generally influence the, you know, the cannabis culture in that part of the world and in that part of the state. Welcome, Mark. Nice to see you.

11:15Ryan Dank AfHey, man. How you doing? Good. Welcome. Welcome back to church. Thanks.

11:20MarkThanks. I was waiting in the other room.

11:26Ryan Dank AfYou figured it out.

11:27BubblemanYeah. I made a mistake this morning and I'm not sure what exactly happened, but I had to start a new link.

11:34SpeakerMarcus, I even emailed you a few days ago and said, are you sure this is the right link? It was. No.

11:43BubblemanYes, it was. I know. Let me try to explain this for you. So I go into my email. I'll explain it to you. You'll understand in a very soon. So what you're thinking is, when I send the emails for the Hash Church panelists, Thank you for watching.

12:12BubblemanThank you for joining us today.

12:39SpeakerHolding a different show someplace else.

12:42BubblemanOh, shit. And you're not invited.

12:45SpeakerThat's no problem.

12:49BubblemanDude, you're totally invited.

12:51SpeakerMe and Mark Lewis will go off and we'll have our own little hash powwow.

12:57BubblemanListen, I think there's some heavy hitters in the room right now. So, I mean, listen, the idea was breeding. I don't know if, Ryan, you have some ideas in regards to sort of directing this conversation. I know there's going to be four hours of solid amazingness that comes out of it. And welcome Johnny B, who just popped into the room and looks like he's freshly done like 100 push-ups.

13:19SpeakerWait a minute. Ryan, you don't have any children. You're not a real breeder, are you?

13:25Ryan Dank AfNo, not at the moment.

13:26SpeakerWhereas me and Mark, we do have children.

13:32BubblemanNo, listen, there is a village in northern Thailand that looks a lot like Ryan. I'm not going to lie.

13:37Ryan Dank AfI've never been to Thailand.

13:40BubblemanI'm joking. I'm so joking, dude.

13:42Ryan Dank AfJust for the record, I've never been to Asia. Yeah, you know, your email said, and I thought it was a really great context, a good place to kind of jump off the conversation, which is why I mentioned Mark and Kevin, was seeds versus clones, right? And how those two different types of propagules influence cultivation. And, you know, there's a lot of history in that conversation because we've ended up using clones because of, The way cannabis has been over-hybridized for years and years and years.

14:15Ryan Dank AfAnd, you know, up until recently, the only way to get to crop uniformity was to use clones, right, to get chemical stability. And some of the work that I did with Mark Lewis down in California was... You know, probably some of the earliest work on towards getting towards chemical stability in a seed line. And, and in the last few years, you know, phylose and relentless genetics, sorry, refined genetics.

14:43Ryan Dank AfThese guys have come a long way in, in creating actually stable seed lines.

14:49SpeakerAnd so, you say refined genetics is stable, but they don't use true, uh, homogenous, Parents to create their F1 hybrid so-called stable varieties.

15:07Ryan Dank AfYeah, when I say stable, I mean uniform is really what I meant.

15:11SpeakerThey're using inbreeding to create Almost homogenous varieties. So it's a little bit different.

15:18Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, and that's the way that it's been typically done in corn is through inbreeding to create, you know, either inbreds or recombinant inbreds that we then use to create F1 hybrids. Right. So an F1 hybrid, an F1 hybrid, an F1 hybrid by definition is not stable, but it's useful.

15:36SpeakerRight. Dr. Bokesha always told me, don't use inbreds. Every time you inbreed, you take away bigger and, uh, You know, so I'm a believer in what he said.

15:48Ryan Dank AfYeah, and if you look at IDL. You did that. I mean, you did do that in the creation of the Propa lines, right? Like you created those four lines.

15:57SpeakerYes, that's true. But what we also did was we restored all the vigor, which is what they hope that they're also doing. But they're not starting with, Homogeneous lines. We didn't start with absolutely homogeneous homozygote lines either, excuse me. Because we only sell them three or four generations, and that's not enough to do it. If you want to have a true homozygote, you need to double a haploid or do some other trick.

16:34Ryan Dank AfYeah, I mean...

16:36Collin PalmerI've never seen an IBL actually from like 50,000 seed population. I've never seen an IBL. I'm just going to throw this out there for the conversation that has ever resembled anything true to form on the parent stock. I've seen... IBL is a silly term. ...more chasing of dreams than I've ever seen in my entire career.

16:59SpeakerThe way I had described it was, okay, so you take an IBL that... A cross between a white plant and a black plant. Neither one of those really exists, but regardless. And then you back cross it to either the white one or the black one for three, four more generations. But you're never going to get a black parent. You're never going to get a white parent. You're going to end up with a, you understand.

17:27Ryan Dank AfYeah, no, listen, we use the term IBL in the cannabis world in a really silly way. IBL means inbred line. It could be inbred one generation or it could be inbred 10 generations, right? And you end up with different things along the way. When we say homozygous, we really mean at multiple traits in the genome. Like we're starting to fix traits along the way. And the farther down we go the line, right?

17:51Ryan Dank AfThank you so much.

18:05Ryan Dank AfWhen David, when Sam sent the skunk over to the University of Mississippi, they inbred it for a whole bunch of more generations, one to one, one to one, one to one. And eventually they got to a state that they called isozygous. Isozygous just means the same on both chromosomes. And that's approaching what you'd get from like a doubled haploid.

18:27SpeakerThat's true. And I did it on a family line level in California for 10 years before I brought it to Holland. And then I used clones to reproduce the seeds. And people, like when I sent those to Dr. Voxa, he also told me that they were, oh no, it was a cytology lab we did, that they were more homozygote than homozygote. Any of the registered hemp varieties that exist in the world.

19:04SpeakerThat's number one.

19:06Ryan Dank AfBecause those things have been also bred on a population level, right? And this comes back to this inbreeding conversation. When you inbreed cannabis, cannabis being is an obligate outcrosser like humans. Okay. So when you, when you breed two plants together. They each have their own variation in the family heritage that is essentially replicated, right? And it's a very unnatural process to breed brother to sister, brother to sister, brother to sister over a series of generations.

19:34Ryan Dank AfAnd in humans, you just can't do that, right? You end up getting all these weird, you know, defects in the children. And that's because there's this really high genetic load of, um, Defective alleles are what we call lethal alleles. And so essentially we have this built-in Thank you so much for joining us.

20:18Ryan Dank AfRight. But it's again, it's a means to an end. If you're inbreeding with the intention to outcross at the end, that's how you can restore vigor.

20:27SpeakerSo as long as the ones that at the end you combine to restore the vigor have different backgrounds, that really helps.

20:43BubblemanYeah. What did DJ Short do in all of this? Like, wasn't he inbreeding and finding mutants? Can you explain a little bit about how he went about that? Because he always seemed to work out in his favor.

20:56Ryan Dank AfWell, it didn't, it didn't. I mean, anybody that's grown blueberry would really say that it's not, it's not a very high performing plant. It's got all these weird crinkle leafs, mutations in the leaf, and it's a slow growing plant and it doesn't yield very much. And when you outcross it to a bunch of different lines, like we did in our hybrid, in our joint projects, that the outcross is actually way outperformed the blueberry.

21:20Ryan Dank AfRight. And it's actually a really good example of what we call inbreeding depression, right? This genetic weakness that gets built into these lines as you go throughout the inbreeding process. And Mark, you've done a lot of work on this. I'm sure you've seen it to some degree in your work as well.

21:36MarkI don't know if you know, but we've been focusing really hardcore on type threes for the past few years. Not a lot of action on the type one side for genetics these days because everybody has a tendency not to respect contracts. But on the type three side, we took the Propyl 3Vs and we inbred them by TURP profile. So we have, you know, about 12 inbred lines that are S3 or deeper now and same on the Pentel side.

22:11MarkSo when you pair those terp cassettes up, you get your hybrid vigor back. And you get like twice the oil, you know, because you'll watch your oil start depressing. Like, you know, that first, that first introgression step, you'll have like three, four percent oil. And then as you inbreed, the total oil just keeps going down. But you lock in the terp cassette. And then when you bring it back to the pentel, you get that hybrid vigor back.

22:36SpeakerAnd that's exactly what we did for cannabinoids.

22:40MarkAnd the same... There's a place in Europe called the Crag. I don't know if you've heard of it, but they do a lot of genetic work. And they were saying that it only takes three inbred steps in different directions to be able to create a hybrid with hybrid vigor. So S3 one way and S3 the other way, and then you can bring them back together.

23:03SpeakerWe did it to three, four, I think we made it to a few that were five self-generations. And... After three or four, most of them were functionally sterile. They would have viable pollen, but it was sticky and it wouldn't die. It wouldn't drop. So you had to use a Q-tip to make hybrids with it or something.

23:31Ryan Dank AfYeah, and they went through this with corn, right? Because corn or maize was also an out-crosser. And essentially, it's one of these things where Through selfing many different individuals from a population, there's going to be some very small subset of plants that have less deleterious alleles.

23:52SpeakerAnd so you can actually go through this selfing process with thousands of different plants, which is difficult in cannabis because you have to use... With corn, if I remember correctly, their primary tool to get around a lot of this was they were using true sterile males.

24:12Ryan Dank AfYeah, but that had a whole bunch of consequences as well, genetic weaknesses. And when you're using sterile males like that, you're by definition outcrossing, right?

24:22SpeakerNo, but it does make the breeding work fast because otherwise you have to detassel the corn.

24:30Ryan Dank AfIt makes the seed production work easier in the hybrid.

24:33SpeakerYeah, that's what I mean.

24:34Ryan Dank AfYeah. And it's a difficulty with cannabis. Like, you know, Arabidopsis, for example, the way that the flower morphology is, if you grow, like you can make a cross or you can, you know, you can expose plants to like a mutagen, for example, like EMS or X-ray or whatever you're using, gamma ray, and you grow out all the seeds. And just by letting the plants grow, they individually self-fertilize.

25:00Ryan Dank AfRight? You don't have to go into every single plant and spray the chemical or spray STS on a plant to make itself, which is an extra step that we have to do that really complicates the process in cannabis. So if you grow a thousand individuals from across in Arabidopsis, and then you harvest the seeds individually from each one of those thousand plants, you now have a thousand like F2 or segregating generation families.

25:27Ryan Dank AfRight. Um, so it's an extra step that you have to do in cannabis and in the inbreeding process that makes it a little bit more difficult.

25:34SpeakerAnd do you enjoy smoking?

25:36Ryan Dank AfNo, I don't, I don't, I don't smoke or grow, um, Those plants. But they, you know, it's just, it's just to point out the difference of the breeding system and how that breeding system affects the way that we breed. And corn, like you were saying, you know, you've got the ears and then you've got the tasselot up top, which is really the pollen donor. You can think of it that way.

26:01Ryan Dank AfYou know, they're kind of built to self in a way that is, you know, different than the way we do it with cannabis. So we want to apply that.

26:09SpeakerFor example, when you have S, what they call the SU, the sugar genes, where the kernels, when they dry, they shrink up and get all wrinkly and stuff. The super sweet ones, if you don't keep them isolated, Then the corn that you grow will not be super sweet. It has to be pollinated by a super sweet.

26:38Ryan Dank AfYeah, yeah, well, it's like it's just a different allele that's contaminating the process, right? And again, because it kind of outcrosses it. Corn's a weird one because it, you know, the pollen is not really super, it's not what we call animophilous. It doesn't flow in the wind. The pollen doesn't flow in the wind, but the pollen kind of drops on an angle away from the tassel. So the plants beside it will have a little bit of outcrossing.

27:02Ryan Dank AfAnyway, the point that I was trying to make is that like, it's one of these examples where like the only way out is through, right? Like you have to kind of do this like, Brute force breeding approach where you screen through thousands and thousands of selfed individuals to find those very few plants that don't have the deleterious alleles. And that process of doing that purges the genome of the population of these deleterious alleles.

27:29Ryan Dank AfAnd what we get out on the other end is these inbred plants that are way more suited for future breeding and future outcrossing. So we're getting to that point in cannabis. It's a journey, of course, as all breeding is. But yeah, it's a journey. And the reason that we do this stuff is like this is not necessarily about finding new things. Like the way that we outcross now and we're constantly crossing this to that and sifting, you know, thousands of plants collectively every year.

27:59Ryan Dank AfWe do find a lot of new things, but we don't end up with True breeding varieties or uniform varieties for production. And companies like Napro and Mark with, you know, helping their cultivators do this process. It's about taking these unique chemotypes and phenotypes that we found and putting them into a stable form that is more suited for agriculture. Because, you know, as we've come to learn, planting crops from seeds is better than planting crops from clones, right?

28:31Ryan Dank AfThe plants just perform better. Um, that having that taproot come off the seed and the way that, that, that root formation happens is very different from how a clone roots and how the, you know, when you plug a clone, the root architecture really tends to stay along the surface of the soil. But when you plug a seed, that taproot dries down into the soil.

28:54SpeakerUm, when I bred skunk number one, we used to pull the plants up and we would take the, uh, The individual ones that we were going to save as a clone that had the most biggest, largest, that they were from clones, or actually they were from seeds, but we were picking the ones that had the most largest ball of roots and really fine roots. I almost think that if a clone has enough really, really fine roots, it's just as good as a big pepper.

29:31Collin PalmerOne thing, guys, I want to just kind of pop in. I sent Marcus a text and I was just thinking about the concept of single nucleotide polymorphisms and how that plays such a crazy role in where we select and how and what we select towards. And it's almost as if we don't Thank you so much for joining us.

30:02Collin PalmerIt starts to tell... I landed on this over the two years ago, just in this concept of we really have to go deeper here to really try to pair these things because we're just... Every time you get a step forward, it's almost like you're trying to keep a straight line that wiggles a little bit and it just gets even more wiggly. So I think there's a... Thank you so much for joining us.

30:47Collin PalmerIt's very clear when you look at the SNPs that we're kind of still way out there in the ether. I don't know how anyone else feels about that or if they're studying this or looking at that. But I just thought for the sake of the conversation, it'd be great to hear Kev's thoughts and You know, Mark, if you're looking at this type of stuff, it sounds like you have based on, you know, the work that you're doing.

31:09Collin PalmerYou said two words that were very key to me that kind of made me believe that you understand this. But it's, you know, it's such a really deep conversation that gets in the weeds quickly, at least for myself, that it's, you know, I just wanted to bring it up with the group and hear your thoughts because it's really a fascinating subject to me. As I said, it's the Rubik's Cube that keeps changing and new colors appear and, you know, it's nuts.

31:37Collin PalmerSo I'll leave it there.

31:41MarkYeah, I don't know about keeps changing because, you know, you could pretty quickly screen for different terp synthases now, obviously THCA synthase and all that stuff. And, you know, we got TPS gene screens. We're looking at height and width SNPs. So there's a lot of cool stuff out there. I think we're just adding to it. The Rubik's Cube just keeps getting more colors, like you said. I don't know how much they change.

32:09Collin PalmerYeah, that's a better use of terms. I guess we're expanding, right? And as we expand, I guess I'm looking at it as a change. It's more of an evolution, I guess, is a better term for it.

32:21MarkUntil about, I don't know, eight months, a year ago, I used to poo-poo a lot of... People's genomic work with cannabis because I really didn't have confidence in most of the people doing the work. But since then, you know, we've, we've collaborated with the Salk Institute and then, you know, they did the pan genome study and work with a great molecular biologist now who's just, he's super sick and he develops, you know, his own markers and It's moving fast now, like you said, and it's just important.

32:57SpeakerI have a question for you, Mark. Do you think that, well, do you know, is there a THCP synthase?

33:07MarkOh, I don't know about that. I'll have to ask my buddy. We haven't really got into the super THC because I'm over in the hemp world all the time, Dave. It's not.

33:18SpeakerI'm with the slaves and the women. The THCP that they did find in Italy wasn't a hemp variety.

33:30MarkBut yeah, we don't see a whole lot of, we're not going that route. We're focused really hardcore on the essential oils because we provide the genetics, the terpene belt farms and what they're doing out there in Byron with their essential oil.

33:48SpeakerI can honestly say that We had enough trouble breeding for the cannabinoids, which was relatively straightforward and easy. But the terpenes, yeah, I mean, when I tried to breed for the terpenes, it was over my head, to be honest. It's so hard compared to cannabinoid breeding.

34:15MarkYou know, what's really cool is when you start, you know, when you find things that produce both D and L, like limonene, because you usually don't see both or you only get the one that smells musty, not the one that smells lemony, you know, so that's where it starts getting really tricky. And then the downstream products from you know when you if you're producing you know like a pinene and then you have the downstream isoprenes and what they go to form and how you know some plants can have every terpene synthase present but they're only producing you know terpenylene and mercine you know that's that's what i was finding i said yeah it was like banging my head against the wall Yeah, and then you'll have a plant that only shows like three terpene synthases, but the whole rainbow's on on the Phytofax.

35:05MarkSo it's like an interest.

35:07Ryan Dank AfYeah, Sam, you also didn't have the assay that we had at Napro, right? Like Napro was the first company to really start quantifying terps in that way. And this was 20 years after you were doing that work, or 15?

35:20SpeakerNo, we were using a simple gas chromatography with... So we were using GCFID and so we could see the absolute amounts. But yeah. And one thing I will admit that when I made simple crosses between like a skunk variety or a Thai variety or an Afghan variety, I was shocked how easy it was that if I didn't know what the varieties were so Double blind testing. I could match the parents and the progeny just by their terpene profiles.

36:05SpeakerIt blew my mind how accurate I was.

36:13SpeakerYeah.

36:13Collin PalmerI can only imagine at that point in time, you know, like that epiphany of being able to see a little bit further, you know, that early. It must have been... Just a light, you know, a shot, a light lightning bolt to your body.

36:29SpeakerWell, what we were doing was we were trying to look at the different terpenes and how they modulated or potentiated THC. So we were really looking at the recreational values of them more than anything else.

36:49Collin PalmerIt's amazing. I mean, Even today, I mean, the fact that we're at this place with technology and now we have machine learning and AI coming into the mix, we have all these things and tools that Um, could really help further simplistic studies that can go quite far and really help lend a hand in some of this stuff. Cause you know, the, the gaping gap I think here is, is really research, you know, in terms of like spend how much money is there to actually spend on a said singular thing that you're studying.

37:24Collin PalmerAnd, um, I know Mark, you know, Dr. Mark, you've, you've done a lot of this grant work. But in terms of genomics, how do we tie all this together? Because we we seemingly take these, you know, these chemical constituents after the fact and then take them into a lab and then we create all these products. But I always wondered what happens if we kept it a cultivar specific all the way through.

37:49Collin PalmerTwo of said product. And maybe that's one, like Kevin, when I first met you at Phylos years ago, we talked about LA Pure Kush for neurological disease and how for reasons, you know, for personal reasons for my dad and other patients that I work with, I was really, you know, just a light bulb went off, right? And I'm thinking to myself, well, if we know those things work, how do we capture that and continue to help those work for product, right?

38:16Collin PalmerBecause we have, you know, we have it in this one modality, but how does that continue for a patient? And it seems like genomics is the first point of contact that we kind of, you know, we utilize it, but we don't lean heavily into it as much as we, as I believe we may could and should. Because they're tools, you know, these are tools in the tool chest.

38:38Collin PalmerThey're screwdrivers and different types of screwdrivers, right? And hammers and nails, etc. So how do we utilize that further in terms of genomic research and then outcrossing? And what does that, you know, what does that look like in a world of F1s and moving super fast? You know, Mark, you see it every day in your work. You're being asked to make flavors every second, right? To, you know, company product, right?

39:05Collin PalmerBut how does that get tied into an overall conversation of wellness and how does the plant, from a wellness and health point of view, how does that stay together? How does genetics become a more important aspect to product dev?

39:24MarkApologies, but I kicked the ball on wellness a long time ago. I'm looking for commercial viability at this point in my career. So I'll let the doctors and physicians and all those folks, homeopaths, figure out what the wellness is. I know that the more research I do, the less I consume. That's all I know. Don't want to panic attack, Ryan, remember?

39:49Ryan Dank AfYeah, that really became our ethos. And we were lucky to be working with folks like Ethan, but... You know, everybody wants to do it all from genetics to just like treating the patients. And that's just not the way it works. Like the plant people, we make the plants. Let's let the doctors figure out what works, right? Because these are like, like the genetics is, the therapeutic aspects in the medicine, that's a deep, deep hairball, right?

40:16Ryan Dank AfAnd it's like, it's kind of egotistical to think that we can do it all from seed to cure, right? Right. And we were, we were a plant research company, right? And so we would, we would develop the plants and find the new things and be really diving deep and focused on what are the new smells? What are the new flavors? How do the traits inherit? How do we stabilize, like Mark was saying, propels versus pentels and yield metrics and all these other things.

40:45Ryan Dank AfAnd then we pass the torch. We'd hand the baton down to the doctors and let them figure it out. Because that's what they do, right?

40:56SpeakerAlso, you're much stronger as a team. Like you say, each person can't do everything. And Ethan doesn't try to do plant breeding. So, yeah, as a team, we're always stronger. If I can throw something, the issue though is that the doctors don't actually have the data set because they don't have patient access. And so that's how I got involved with all these different physicians was that from dispensary ownership, you see a population that no physician seats.

41:36SpeakerAnd so it's really trying to record what varieties seem to be used predominantly by people with what issues. And then it starts to create clusters. And that's kind of where like what Colin brought up with that LAPR Kush, there was an accident. There was a patient that came in that had neurological problems and there was no cannabis for him. That was available at the store for free, right?

42:01SpeakerSo the compassion program was dry. But I used to always keep flour in my office in case that happened. And it was my own flour. And so I provided to him something that I consume. And he came back and said, hey, I had this profound experience consuming it. And so we tried it again to see did it work again. And it did. And then it became this process of can we find substitutes that are similar and they did not work.

42:27SpeakerSo we said, okay, for you as a specificity, this thing works in this capacity. So once we had that, we started to say, well, maybe does it work for other individuals with the same condition? And we started to apply it in that sense. And pretty soon we had a pretty good data set that said this product seems to have the ability to alleviate these issues Specifically. And that's, I think, the issue of that plant breeders breed.

42:56SpeakerAnd I'm not a healer, so I don't have no medical background. I just had this unbelievable number of people come through my hands over the course of 18 years of dispensary operations. And it's that there's this disconnect between what the people at the store see and what doctors actually see because they see these minority populations. And so We never get this chance to be able to say, this is the things we would like to see, and the breeders help steer these directions.

43:28SpeakerAnd then subsequently, we notice that these things work for individuals. Can the breeders get that and start to identify where on the loci is this trait? How do we intensify the populations?

43:42Ryan Dank AfYeah, you're finding the trailheads, right? That's what it is, is the crossovers. You're finding the trailheads, but we're not exploring the trail. That needs to be done by the doctors and the professionals. I mean, David, I don't know if you know Dr. David Meary in Israel. He did this really interesting work on CBD. They were doing CBD extracts for children with epilepsy. And they had it narrowed down again, like the plant folks kind of narrowed it down to CBD and said, hey, let's give the CBD to these kids.

44:10Ryan Dank AfAnd so they had these CBD plants over in Israel and they were producing them and making extracts for them. And as they do, you do it in batches, right? You do it like you get flowers every harvest and you make a batch of product. And they made an extract and they started giving it to the kids and the kids weren't responding the way that they, you know, they anticipated that they would be finding.

44:34Ryan Dank AfAnd so David Meir, I mean, you've talked, you and I talked about this on another, another podcast a long time ago, but it's like the level, the level of depth of analysis that they do on these extract is so much greater than your average cannabinoid profile in, in North America. And they actually broke it down way further and they found that there was another like minor sub cannabinoid that it wasn't being produced in certain seasons in these CBD plants.

45:04Ryan Dank AfAnd when that cannabinoid was missing, the kids weren't having the same relief as they were from the CBD extract, right? So whether that acted in conjunction or it was the single cause, again, that was like, that's really up to a clinical trial to tease apart those two variables. But my point was, is like, although we do play a role, there's so much going on on a much deeper level that really takes a medicinal scientist running a clinical trial to be able to actually tease apart those variables because we just don't have that kind of granularity.

45:39Ryan Dank AfAnd I think we do end up making a lot of wrong conclusions when we try to think, hey, we can do it all. I mean, the amount of times that I've heard cannabis people say, oh, I cured this person's cancer. It's just like, man, I hate hearing that. Like, it's just like, it's so egotistical. You didn't cure shit, right? It's like you provided this person medicine and that's really honorable, right?

46:05Ryan Dank AfBut like, let's not take the power from the plant, right? Like it's the plant that's doing the healing. It's not us. We're just the vehicle.

46:13BubblemanThat's not what makes you feel good when you're helping people either. You know, when you want to help people, it's not, you don't need to take any, I'm also the same way, Ryan. It rubs me the wrong way when I hear people say like, Oh, my, my medicine that I make is, I'm like, listen, people have made this shit with toxic solvents, and it's still shrunken cancers out of people's bodies.

46:37BubblemanSo don't you be taking credit. What you should take credit for is that you're using your journey to help others. That's amazing. I mean, who feels better? I don't feel better on Hash Church than when I listen to Wade talk about giving medicine to catastrophically ill children with Forrest. And he's crying when he's saying it because he can't even say it without crying. And he's not taking credit.

47:03BubblemanHe's saying, I feel blessed Thank you so much for joining us today.

47:26BubblemanThank you so much for having me.

47:45BubblemanAnd of course, I'm not a doctor, obviously. I'm on the panel with all doctors. And there's like four of them. And the entire audience are women in like stage three and four of breast cancer. So most of them had bald heads. They had the little material over their heads covering their heads. And they were sunken eyes. And it was heavy. It was really fucking heavy. And one woman stood up and she's basically just looking for hope.

48:16BubblemanShe's just looking for a little hope. She's looking for one of those trailheads that you were talking about. And she asked the doctor, I just I've seen so much information. Can you just tell me yes or no? Is it possible? Thank you so much for joining us.

48:44BubblemanGod, like, of course we can say that. Like, haven't you read the studies? Like Dr. Christina Sanchez and Guzman out of Madrid, like apoptosis. Like, it doesn't mean it happens every time, but it definitely shows that it can happen. You can tell them that. You should be able to tell them that. They couldn't, none of them. So I grabbed the microphone and I ended up telling them.

49:04BubblemanAnd then that woman was a woman who I ended up meeting in the parking lot later. I said, listen, I have cannabis products. You can have them all. I gave them all to her. You know, I'm speaking with Allison later that night and she's just kind of crying. She's like, Mark, I know you're trying to help them. You don't understand. Like, it's such a high percentage. So many of those women are going to pass away in a very short period of time.

49:25BubblemanAnd I was like, well, whatever, you know, if I can help one, that's, that's something I gave her all the hash and products that I had in my trunk and ended up sending her some other products, you know, just to kind of get, get her into that trailhead of this was, You know, some years before legalization here in Canada. Anyway, she is still alive to this day, you know, and she was in like stage four.

49:49BubblemanThis was like 10 years ago. So shout out to Judith, if you're listening. It was great to meet you. And I'm not sure really where I was.

49:58Collin PalmerMarcus, that's kind of the tie in that I'm getting. That's why I brought that up is because, you know, there's there's a. I think there's two different ideologies here. Like I understand Ryan, like, yes, they are the experts, but there's also, you're an expert in a certain subject matter and you may have spent your whole clinical career in college and going and doing these other studies and learning about all these other chemical constituents and monomolecular studies and all those things.

50:21Collin PalmerBut then you get this grubus cube put in front of you that has all these different touch points. And you have to not relearn, but you have to adapt these new chemical profiles to all of the pharmacology that you've learned. And I think there's only a few still to this day that have the maturity to not let the ego get in the way in terms of what Marcus kind of touched on.

50:42Collin PalmerWell, I can't risk my career over telling this person about these helpful things.

50:51Collin PalmerI think there's a problem inherently with that, you know, and I think that's where we need to break down the barriers and get the right people together so we can, like you just said, well, if the varietal is not grown a specific way and we don't understand, you know, the, you know, how to grow it seasonally or it's not how it's happening every other season, can we inform the cultivators from a And then that can trickle its way down to then bring the right constituents in so we can have the better, healthier conversation that doesn't have fear baked into it based on a system that doesn't truly support what we're after here, which is trying to... Or worse, Colin, not just fear, it's the theft of hope.

51:33BubblemanIt's like, what's the Hippocratic Oath? Like, it's to do no harm. Well, then you can't steal hope from terminally ill people. You have to give them hope. I would love to hear from Wade. He just put his hand up. Welcome, Wade. You're looking good to this.

51:46WadeYeah, I had to turn off my headphones. Can y'all hear me okay?

51:55Johnny BPerfect. Perfect.

51:56WadeThank you. That was a beautiful story you shared, Marcus. It... Reminded me of some folks I know. And part of where I found solace in the dilemma that we're talking about here is, yes, cannabis does seem to help some people with cancer that is pretty hard on their bodies and their souls. And I think it's really important to remind everybody that that person, that patient, if you will, It's dealing with a whole bunch of things besides their diagnosis.

52:38WadeAnd cannabis, there's no question in my mind, and I think for anyone else here, that the right chemistry at the right dose, the right way of taking it into their body will give them a better quality of life. And hello, why not give someone a better quality of life while they're in the midst of dying? Because I got to tell you, that's a path every human being will walk at some point.

53:08WadeEvery one of us. It's the price of admission to life. So anything you or I or any other person can do in providing appropriate cannabis products to a person with a terminal diagnosis, you're doing good work.

53:31Ryan Dank AfNothing feels better. Nothing feels better than helping someone on their journey, and I've done a lot of that throughout the years. Many, many people. When people call me up and they say, hey, I need something for my friend, you just give it to them. You give them whatever you have, and it You know, you do it willingly and there's honestly, it feels way better than selling pounds or, you know, getting a big paycheck.

53:56Ryan Dank AfLike there's, there's just, there's, there's nothing like it on the planet. You know, it was going on a couple of weeks ago about being of service to other people. It's one of the real gifts that we get to have in this industry, um, is to make other people's lives better.

54:12SpeakerYears ago, I was up at the Groningen drug center for research. And I went to the hospital there because my wife was getting a liver transplant at the time. And I ran into a, well, she wasn't a young lady, but a middle-aged lady who, she saw me and understood that I was there working with cannabis. And she says, can you get me some cannabis? Because she was a, Thank you for joining us.

55:08SpeakerMy company, we're breeding all these unique varieties of cannabis and everything. And what I did was I found her some cannabis the next day or two. I brought it to her. And, you know, a few days later, I saw him. She says, Oh, I want to thank you. I says, And I says, well, you know, it's not going to be a cure. And she goes, yes, but what it does is it lifts my pain, me above the pain.

55:39SpeakerSo I don't have the pain, you know, just driving me down. And so she was able to, you know, lift her spirits above the pain. And We as a company, we never dealt with patients that much. We were a medical research and development company, but what our end goal was, was to, because this was in the early 90s, was to bring cannabis back into Western medicine. Because it was not there at that time.

56:23SpeakerAnd I think we were very successful at that, which helped a lot of patients further down the line.

56:33BubblemanAbsolutely. I would add that this sort of

56:39BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

56:58BubblemanI think it was Colton's mom, Wendy, who was on here. And I was like, what do you think of this? Like, you know, kind of all these, you know, alternative folks and hippies and trippers and freaks, you know, the ones of us that have been, you know, holding this plant. And she just so honestly was like, oh my goodness, I... Oh, I love and pray for all of them.

57:18BubblemanLike they were the keepers of this plant that brought it through prohibition so that when Colton got sick, he could access it to it. And I just thought, you know, what a powerful statement that it's just people like us who absolutely love cannabis. And we go super deep down this rabbit hole, whether it's through breeding or growing or processing or whatever it is. We get together, we talk about it for hours on end.

57:44BubblemanAnd it does seem that there is a correlation for those of us that find the best products we can, the best, you know, hashes and cultivars and all of these things. It correlates to Thank you so much for joining us.

58:27BubblemanYou know, grow mediocre flower like they did in Mississippi, you know, and not really acknowledge that it's a medicine. It seems like the groups that are trying to produce medical cannabis, or at least that have tried to produce medical cannabis over the years, have just been missing a component. And I don't know if that's, you know, a high level of volatile organic compounds or if it's somehow the component of love.

58:50SpeakerI, yeah, no, I want to say something, but before I jump on it, um, Ryan had brought up the seasonality of specific metabolite compounds being created in cannabis, resulting in different CBD delivery and efficacy for the kids. I just learned that that applies to tea, that I went to high tea last night that Nicotine had put on. And there was a group that work in China doing tea harvest.

59:21SpeakerAnd he was talking about that the Chinese had noticed over millennia that the tea that they harvest in certain times of the year imparts specific effects that match that. So spring tea is more energizing, fall tea more relaxing. And it was just interesting to me because, you know, if you, you don't have to be a scientist, if you have 2000 years, you are a scientist. You're able to look at 2,000 years of combined information.

59:49SpeakerAnd it was just so interesting because it applies to, you know, when Ryan brought it up with cannabis, I was like, whoa, what an interesting thing that so many plants have that seasonality of production. But with medical cannabis, because I had no background in medicine and I had no background in holistic healing, What I learned from when I was in the military, doing the work in the military, when people are terrified, if you're not, they calm down.

1:00:23SpeakerAnd so the people that came into my life that were in medical cannabis, they were receiving good product. But what I think they received was... A minute level of support that they didn't feel they received from the medical system. So the medical system, by virtue of the fact that those people have to disconnect from the patient in order to be objective, we who aren't in the medical system don't know how to disconnect.

1:00:51SpeakerAnd so our involvement and engagement with them was here's product, but here's also friendship. Here's emotional support. If you need access into anything we have, you can get at it because if we can only get 5% increase in the quality of your existence, that's a big damn deal. And I think that that has the value because it's the empowerment of the individual struggling that lets them do it.

1:01:19SpeakerIt's that same deal where you throw a rat in a tank And they swim for 30 minutes and then they drown. But if you pull them out of the water before they drown and you put them in a tank, they can swim for two days. Because what they've developed now is belief. They believe that if they struggle long enough, they'll make it. And so I think that that's really the success that we had with medical people was that we didn't approach it from the same perspective because what we knew was that I'm not qualified to tell you if you're going to live or not.

1:01:52SpeakerBut what I know is I can tell you that we're not going to abandon you in your struggle. And cannabis is this conduit that creates that connection between the people who support the people who need the support. And so I think that that's really when you look at like the history of medical cannabis in the Bay Area, a lot of the product that was being given to the medical people was Basically commercial pot because they were giving it away.

1:02:17SpeakerIt wasn't ultra high level cannabis that they were receiving. It was the fact that they were receiving cannabis which stimulated a response and they were receiving support which keeps the human element healthy. And that's, you know, what Wade had said, the duality of it where you're providing and you're also supporting. I think that that's like an intangible that you can't measure. And I think that that's what makes holistic medicine with cannabis so powerful.

1:02:44SpeakerAnd it makes it so difficult for the doctors to understand because they only provide the support through the medicine. They don't provide it through the human. I just wanted to mention too, I think it was Marcus that was talking about the cannabis being grown at Mississippi State. Two points. Number one is Dr. Osole believed in medical cannabis. Absolutely. Point number two was that they were given a contract by the NIDA and they had to fulfill their contract.

1:03:22SpeakerThe NID wanted XYZ amount of cannabis of a certain variety with certain potency and blah, blah, blah. So it wasn't up to Dr. Soleil to decide what to give them. It was, you know, by contract. He personally developed a THC depository and he tested it on himself. And he believed in it. He knew it worked. And I think he really did want to do a better job, but it was beyond what he was contracted to do.

1:04:07SpeakerYou're working for the federal government. You're kind of narrow focus, you know, especially during the drug war. Any information that contradicted the agenda was basically buried.

1:04:18Collin PalmerYeah, I was going to ask, you know, is there a lot of research that is I had a predetermined, and Sam, maybe you know this or maybe you don't, that I had a predetermined ask before it began, because we all know that in the corporate world, that happens all the time. So, you know.

1:04:38MarkWell, when you write, you have to design the experiment, and the whole point is you have a problem you're solving. So all research is predetermined. I mean, that's kind of the way of science.

1:04:52Collin PalmerYeah, but I'm saying what I'm getting at is like, hey guys, like do this research, but we need to tell the general public a narrative over here. Like that kind of stuff. More of a dark control than that, Mark Lewis.

1:05:05SpeakerWhat the NIDA was doing basically in the early years was they were not allowing or funding any research that was going to help medical patients. What they were doing was looking for things that was bad about cannabis. Right.

1:05:25Collin PalmerThat's actually, that's my question really.

1:05:28SpeakerYeah. And that's absolutely was the truth until it, what really changed it was when it started being used by a lot of patients and also when different funding of the research, Started coming along besides the NIDA. And also, I think I've said this before, but Dr. Abrams in San Francisco, who is doing work with smoked cannabis for AIDS patients to help them stimulate appetite and things like that.

1:06:09SpeakerHe applied three or four times and was knocked back by the NIDA. They wouldn't let him do the work. And I suggested to him, you know, what you need to do is apply for a grant and permission to do the work, but word it in a way that you're looking for something bad, why cannabis shouldn't be used, and then just find out and report the truth. And that's what he did.

1:06:41SpeakerAnd he was funded. And he did get the grant. And he didn't find anything bad about cannabis. But he was able to report that it really helped AIDS patients a lot, stimulating their appetite. And it wasn't causing problems.

1:07:03MarkYeah, his best stuff, his best work was with opiates and how you could co-administer THC with opiates and you'd only have to take half the effective dose and you got the same amount of relief. That was a pretty cool study.

1:07:16SpeakerYeah, that's absolutely true. And that's what the gal who was up in Groningen Hospital when I gave her some cannabis to help her, that's the thing she told me. She goes, you know, With cannabis, I only take half as much of the, because she was on a self-administered opiate morphine drip or something like that. And she, you know, the trouble with that is that these drugs, you have to keep taking more and more and more and more to get the same results.

1:07:56SpeakerAnd if you can delay that with cannabis, Cannabis by only using half as much opiates and you're going to have, you know, twice as long before you reach that point.

1:08:09BubblemanThat's funny. Oh, sorry. Johnny B had his hand up.

1:08:13Johnny BYeah, I just put my hand up. I didn't want to cut everybody off. And as we're talking here for above medical patients and everything is about medical and that's just always my, my, my, my take on things. And as we're discussing that, my new book just came out from Pharma to Freedom and Chapter 8 is talking about a lot of what we're talking here because this is about for medical patients.

1:08:30Johnny BIt's 99 cents on Amazon right now, on Kindle. I'm just plugging myself right now. But a lot of stuff we're talking about in here is actually I've been writing my story and how we can take a look at the systems and look at advocacy and how we can actually get public awareness campaigns and stuff like that. So everything we're talking about here, I actually wrote in a book and all the stuff I've learned from you guys from Hash Church and over the last 20, 30 years, a lot of that's in this little book here right now.

1:08:55Johnny BI just want to say, you know, I love you guys. And this just resonates with me so much. So just keep kind of advocating and pushing that. And we've got to write more and do more for people out here because it's really important that we get this information out there and any which will be possible between groups and leadership groups and writing and stuff like that. So, yeah, as we're talking about it, I'm sitting here like in tears a little bit.

1:09:15Johnny BSo I just wanted to kind of, you know, this is what we're doing here right now is spreading that love and spreading that joy. So thank you guys. And, you know, just want to say that. So it's my background right now. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:09:49Johnny BEducation is the key here and that's what we're doing here right now is educating.

1:09:53SpeakerAnd also medical is really important because cannabis prohibition was put up by people who didn't give a fuck about cannabis. And when their relatives, their loved ones got sick and cannabis helped them, you better believe that it changed a lot of prohibitionist minds.

1:10:16Johnny BYeah, well, that's what we keep doing here. So I want to thank you all. And I see the chat's all thanking me too, so I just want to thank everybody here. And the next steps, right, 2025, what we can do with new technologies and with new voices and what we're doing here and with AI and the legacy moving on. Smart AI and cannabis is coming out in about three months, so we're really kind of pushing this towards how we can actually start moving forward with education for patients and for more access internationally, right?

1:10:45Johnny BSo it's... So we're really looking forward to this next little push here, guys.

1:10:50BubblemanI wonder how AI will play a role in the future of cannabis breeding, of discovering and understanding new genes and new, you know, new components of the plant that maybe we're unable to, you know, aggregate the data that we currently have in a way. Like, it'll just be interesting to see how we can use AI. I mean, I saw you and Ryan got together recently and you guys...

1:11:17BubblemanAll of these people created a virtual chimera. That was pretty cool.

1:11:24Collin PalmerOn the topic of AI, I was just reading an article about Google's Gemini 2.0, diagnosing pancreatitis from a CT scan. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about in terms of the future and how we utilize things, specifically the work that you're doing, Mark Lewis. I mean, you know, it's just another paintbrush in the, you know, the tool chest, you know?

1:11:48MarkOh, yeah. All of our collaborative agreements, I always put in there that they're not allowed to use our data sets for their AI models they build because... Yeah, that's smart.

1:11:57Collin PalmerProtect yourself. But utilize it for yourself and how to further your own research, you know, is really what I'm getting at. And...

1:12:05Markand the archive of data that we have ryan knows it's massive and we could just you that way you could see inheritance patterns that we i couldn't see previously you know but the ai can definitely see it it's just uh so it's a complicated thing we need to get some massive injections of capital

1:12:25Collin PalmerYeah, I said it before, man. I'll say it again. We're massively underfunded for the concepts and ideas that I know a lot of you all here have. And to further those things, it's going to take dollars, right? And as I get older, it's only ringing truer and truer.

1:12:41Ryan Dank AfAnd you're like, I'm going to solve here, solve this problem. Well, what's it cost to solve it?

1:12:46SpeakerI was brought into an AI project. That was out of Germany. That was interesting. And it was the problem that they have with using AI in cannabis, which is why I got brought in, was they don't know what questions to ask. And so the bottom line with the AI is what's the prompt? And what is it we're trying to actually do? And so I got brought in, but it was amazing because if I can remember what it was, it was like, if you're doing conventional breeding, You know, you're able to say make 1,100 decisions.

1:13:19SpeakerAnd if you're using marker assisted, you can go up to 100,000 decisions. But if you're working with AI, it sends you into the 100 million. So it was this exponential increase. And so I got together with the AI team out of Germany and then a team of, they were pretty much like agronomic breeders of corn, wheat, but brilliant guys. And so I got brought in to help take a look at the questions you would ask and where was the need.

1:13:47SpeakerLike, what do we need in the world of cannabis? And not that I'm, you know, omnipotent on the need of everyone, but I can say, hey, these are some of the places where we're definitely falling short. And what it came down to was using the AI allows you to see relationship patterns that we as humans otherwise couldn't see because we can't look at that much data simultaneously and see the pattern.

1:14:14SpeakerAnd I think that once we start to be able to... And the issue with it is in order for you to do this work, it's proprietary. So whoever holds the fucking AI key controls the data flow. So it isn't like we have the ability to kind of make a benefit that kind of spreads to many. It's some very specific... The company owns the data now. They own this patent.

1:14:39SpeakerAnd... But I was just fascinated by the ability to begin to use some of these tools in this regard. And it gets kind of scary because when you start to apply like everything I see now, I start to think is AI. Anybody who's a prolific poster, I'm like that shit that you didn't write. It's you can see this vanilla. And it's, it's the, when I do writing, I throw it onto AI to see how AI would edit it because I don't like the edit.

1:15:09SpeakerBut it always lets me realize where there's me and then what AI removes from me. And I think that that's part of this process is that we don't have this ability to get all the people in the same room at the same time with a common agenda. And, you know, fuck, we all want to get paid. But with cannabis and research and science and medicine, the financial part can't be the driving force or otherwise you never get the product to actually hit the people that need it until the monetization components there.

1:15:44SpeakerOh, you got a birthday today, man? Happy birthday on your boy. Congratulations.

1:15:50SpeakerThat's awesome. You're muted, brother.

1:15:57Collin PalmerOh yeah, you're muted, Colin.

1:16:00Collin PalmerYou got me excited because what you're touching on is very much like the creative process where you iterate, iterate, iterate, and where you started is rarely where you end unless there's a real directive towards finishing that.

1:16:11SpeakerYes.

1:16:12Collin PalmerEspecially when it's open-ended. So to have more data points to be able to actually see that through iteration and process, That is that's the key right there to fully, you know, you know, cognitively expanding your own mind. Right. And I think that's really what we're after. But to your point, the danger comes in when someone wants to take ownership of things. Right. And then the monetary value and then the ego starts to seep in, as Marcus said earlier.

1:16:38Collin PalmerAnd that's where. There's a balance, right? And that balance rarely lines up like harmonics. And that's the hardest part about this. But the tool is unbelievably powerful. And that's that's really hard to unsee. So thank you guys for an amazing time here. I'm going to peace out. But you guys are all amazing. I love you all. Kev, Marcus, Mark.

1:17:01BubblemanGood to see you, brother. Happy birthday.

1:17:05Collin PalmerChimera. Love you all. Thank you. Happy birthday, Colin.

1:17:09BubblemanYeah, happy birthday, brother. Thanks, man. May it be a good one. Someone in the chat, Young Z, just said, I had AI explain to me the Pia Teletech as Tupac doing a whole song.

1:17:24Collin PalmerYou have fun with it, right?

1:17:28BubblemanDude, it's all about the prompts. And I will say, Kev, it's going to get scarier in the sense that you're right. Depending on how you give the prompt, AI will lose components of what you would sound like. But if you start training the AI to learn what you speak like and kind of guess what you're going to say next, when you give it prompts, you can say, In the way Kevin Jodfrey would write, write this.

1:17:56BubblemanAnd then you'll see that gets even scarier.

1:17:59SpeakerBut you know what's trippy, Marcus, is that what happened was someone reached out to me to do a chapter for a scientific book. And what I covered was the history of cannabis in California. And when I ran it through the AI, just because I play with it, I don't use the tool, but I use the tool as a cleaner. It constantly removed the fact that we screwed the Mexicans over, that it wouldn't take away the fact that there was racism driving the phrase marijuana and that in, you know, 1910, the newspapers said the Mexicans are going to steal your jobs.

1:18:38SpeakerRight. And so no matter how I prompted AI and I was like explicit, do not remove this portion.

1:18:45BubblemanIt couldn't not remove it. Was that chat GPT?

1:18:50SpeakerAnd yeah, and it was, and I think I have, I think I even have a paid, I might even have a paid version, but the point is that it's, it's what AI you're using.

1:18:57BubblemanCorrect.

1:18:58SpeakerAnd, and so that's where it gets confusing because no matter how I change the direction and was explicit in what I wanted, it wouldn't leave that in. And so I was cracking up because I'm like, is AI revisionist, is it, is it a revisionist history machine?

1:19:17Ryan Dank AfYeah, they're handcuffed. They're sat around these guidelines that they have to follow, right? And there's going to be more of them. I mean, the government will be putting in regulations around all that stuff too.

1:19:26Johnny BThey have guidelines set in there, and they have different parts of CHAT-GTP. So they have 4.0, 3.5, then they have 1.0 turbo and stuff like that. So a lot of these ones now I'm seeing that I can't get into and block, but a lot of the GTPs or the agents I built a year ago are like back key doors. They can go in. So it's understanding where you were on that timeframe and how you can actually now use the ability.

1:19:49Johnny BAnd that's what's happening about like a super intelligence. What's pretty cool about it is where you were in that timeframe and there's different parts of chat GTP. So you got four different large language models inside of that. Then you can use Claude. Then you can use Perplexi. You can go to Gemini. You can go to Copilot. They're all based off a certain different, like the way they stack information.

1:20:11Johnny BLike when you're a kid, as you grow up, you're stacking information. That's what's happened with these models. They have all stacking information. So if you have the ability to come back to your five-year-old or your 10-year-old, because you have that knowledge and you can. So it's depending on where you come in on this, Kevin, I have a question for you. Who, which, you say you were doing California history.

1:20:29Johnny BWho was the, who was you doing this for?

1:20:47SpeakerThis was for Aniel, who's My Flora DNA. He's the individual that owns the My Flora DNA company. He was reached out to, I'm trying to think of the publisher, but it was a scientific publisher. That answers my question. I was just curious if it was professors at Humboldt University. No, no, it wasn't through HSU. I know Dominic really well too, but this was on Yale where he was brought in and we wanted to cover some topics.

1:21:19SpeakerAnd I said, oh, I'd love to cover California history. And mostly because a lot of it is that we took a smoking culture from Mexico, but then in the late 70s, we kind of adopt I'm going to start off with a couple of things. I'm going to start off with a couple of things. I'm going to

1:21:58SpeakerAll right, let's move on to the next question.

1:22:24SpeakerI never felt that way because my wife is Hispanic, her background, so I was doing it the other way around.

1:22:36SpeakerSo it was just really, it was interesting to me that when I used, you know, and I started playing around just, I couldn't, when I first did it, it truncated the chapter. And I just said, well, that's weird. Why would it remove all these key elements of a story? So I started playing with the prompts and no matter how I prompted it, no matter what I said, no matter what I did, it wouldn't allow me to cover some of that dirty history.

1:23:05SpeakerAnd I think that the mainstream people, so many of them don't understand the demonization process. And I think for a lot of Americans, they have a very hard time accepting it because you drank the American cool. And I was in the military, I'm American American. It's that I can accept what we did right and wrong. And with the drug war, That demonization was so complete, but it was so woven into racism and California was this hotbed of it.

1:23:37SpeakerAnd when you look at the 2024 headlines in the newspaper saying the Mexicans are stealing your jobs and then you go back to a 1910 newspaper and it says in the headline Mexicans are stealing your jobs. There was just this irony that I just couldn't, I couldn't not cover. The history of Herb was stolen culture, stolen genetics, and no reciprocity in the process for so much and so many.

1:24:08MarkHey, when I first popped on, Ryan was talking about IU Bloomington for some reason. And then we skipped to the waiting room question. I was just curious what you guys were talking about. Because it is true, those genetics did come out of there. That's where a lot of my seed and clone collection started in the 90s. And they came from Dave or McPartland back in that day, the 157 seed accessions.

1:24:36MarkAnd there was this one cultivar that we got that, and I just want to use this time to ask, see if anyone remembers what it was. And it was almost brown with orange hairs and it was super sedative. And they called it the Black African. And I still remember, dude, his name was Ross. He's a hippie dude. And like he, that was the first time I saw a food saver.

1:24:57MarkLike they bring the kind butt out in the food saver. And we had the 35 millimeter film case. This was like 92. And I was wondering if Sam remembers what that cultivar was.

1:25:10SpeakerNo, to be honest. But you got to remember, I left California in 85. So was it around before 85?

1:25:20MarkNo, it was a part of the seed collection that was sent to IU Bloomington to get chemotaxonomically. Allegedly.

1:25:28SpeakerOkay.

1:25:30MarkIt's via Don McPartland.

1:25:32SpeakerOkay. Well, I thought John McFarland didn't have anything to do with those seeds. You talked about Carl Hillig, yes?

1:25:40MarkYeah, Carl, yeah, Hillig and Malberg.

1:25:44SpeakerOkay, yeah, because I supplied the majority of the genetics for Carl's studies in the beginning, really a lot of them. And I got them either collecting them myself. A few of them I got from friends Who had land race genetics from, because we really wanted to test land race genetics. I called it not polyhybrids because the polyhybrids wouldn't answer the questions.

1:26:17Ryan Dank AfYeah, what I was saying in that, Mark, was that Those plants, like when Hillig did all that work, if you go back and you read the papers, they looked at all these different populations, but the ends were really low, right? Like they looked at like one or two plants from every, every accession. So, It's not like they were they were doing population studies. And I know you say that those plants came out of there, but I mean, they really are.

1:26:44Ryan Dank AfThat's like allegedly came from there.

1:26:46MarkThere's just 110 percent, dude, like my old hookups roommate worked in the greenhouses. And that's where like a lot of the clones in that area came from. They were pulling them off those plants.

1:27:00Ryan Dank AfYeah, maybe. I don't know. We've had this conversation before. I mean, that was the other DEA lab, right? The other DEA grow along with UMISS.

1:27:10SpeakerIt wasn't really a DEA grow. It was just licensed by the... That's what I mean.

1:27:20Ryan Dank AfIt was a license. It was one of the two licensed facilities in the country.

1:27:23SpeakerBut you got to remember that everybody said, What was it? G13 or G11, I forget. G13. Exactly. Came from Mississippi University. Well, that was my first question when I was there in Dr. O'Sulley's office. I said, so did you ever grow a plant called G13? And he said, no. He looked through his records. He never grew a plant called G13. So...

1:27:56Etienne FontanThat's the biggest myth there ever was, right? G13, you know, because I've smoked the cannabis that comes from the University of Mississippi and it came in around, what, four to five percent. But I did talk to Suman this year when I was at the USDA and he swears to me that he has a 22 percent cultivar in the ground right now.

1:28:18SpeakerAnd I was like, I don't know when when I was there. Dr. O'Sullivan showed me some work they were doing at the university, and it was 25-30% THC. But it was not being grown in quantity to fulfill a contract. He was just experimenting. I also sent him some strength number one seeds, so... I know he grew skunk number one. And like you said, somebody mentioned that they embedded several generations for the work I think he was doing with George Weeble.

1:29:00Etienne FontanYeah, I was talking with Sumana. I was telling him on how I had tested his samples back in 2009 and how it failed molds and mildews. And he was like, really? Oh, hmm. It doesn't surprise me.

1:29:16BubblemanAnd we had our own mythical story up here in Canada. And it was the chemo, the UBC chemo. We had the, you know, I'd heard it called wheelchair weed. I'd been, I'd heard it called the chemo. And it was like, it was in the nine, maybe, yeah, the early nineties that a friend of mine His story was that his auntie was getting it. She was part of this study and she had cancer and she was getting it.

1:29:45BubblemanAnd it was like, it was always very wet. Like it just hadn't been dried properly. Like someone was like almost stealing this weed. And it was just like very dark and red. Was that the story where

1:29:59SpeakerDavid Suzuki supposedly, Brandon?

1:30:02Ryan Dank AfYes. And I went to UBC and I worked in the botany department and I asked everybody at the department if they ever grew weed there and they absolutely did not. So it's another one of those stories.

1:30:13SpeakerI asked David Suzuki if he ever had that variety and he told me no.

1:30:19Ryan Dank AfI just posted something in the chat, but maybe Marcus can pull it up and put it on the screen. I was actually driving into work in April one day and I ended up behind a subcompact car and it had G13 on the license plate and I went and looked it up. G13 is the government code for a subcompact car. So, like, you know, and it has G13 right on the license plate.

1:30:43Ryan Dank AfIt's the first part of the code on the license plate. Mark can pull it up. There's actually pictures on the internet if you search it.

1:30:50SpeakerMy favorite license plate is the one that Todd McCormick has, THC Maven, the California license plate for his car.

1:31:03Ryan Dank AfYou'll see it. If you drive around California, or I'm sure it's other parts of the country, and you see government plates on, there's specific government plates for government vehicles. And all the subcompacts are the first part of the code is G13. So this is this is again some stoner myth that's been bastardized and turned into stoner lore.

1:31:26Etienne FontanIt's just neat that there's so much stoner lore you know you got to think that it's there's a lot of it too with so many we call it smoking circle lore right because it's what we would share in our smoking circles as we would go out back in the 90s and you know when we were doing the early activism For what we were doing, yeah, that's what people were doing.

1:31:47Etienne FontanThey were communicating sociologically in their circles and then going to their other circles and spreading that information, misinformation accordingly, amoeba-like.

1:31:56SpeakerAnd I can remember when I was reading about my company, Sacred Seeds, which I started in the mid-70s, the world's first cannabis seed company. And it was a whole story about how it had started in the late 50s

1:32:16SpeakerAfter the Second World War in the 1940s, and it was a group of cannabis growers who started this company, and it was a West Coast seed collective, and none of this was true. I started it. It was my company. I named it. And it wasn't till the mid-70s, but yeah, I mean, the story was entertaining because people didn't know the truth, so they just made shit up.

1:32:49SpeakerWell, people love stories. Look at Lowell out of California, right? Lowell would just fold it up under the Statehouse implosion, but Lowell... Originally, they came out with this identifier that it was connected to this man named Bull Lowell. And Bull Lowell was some renegade hemp farmer who fought the government in the 20s. And he had been involved all these years. And that whole shit was manufactured, right?

1:33:19SpeakerAnd so it was incredible because it becomes this, people start literally, you know, worshiping Bull Lowell as this character. And it's almost like saying Paul Bunyan was real. And so we're taking, we're creating myths and then making them real. And then people are taking this shit to heart like it really existed. I don't want to create the impression. It was a great story though. They stole the shit out of it.

1:33:49SpeakerAnd then the problem was, you know, they go through all the other issues. But at the end of that operation, some friends of mine were running the gardens and were just doing some incredible work. So, you know, the quality of what they produced turned around dramatically in the... Yeah, but their damage was done with their cafe, right? Their cafe where they had the herpes outbreak, which is kind of a problem, you know?

1:34:13SpeakerYeah, but that didn't mess them up financially as much as the fact that it was...

1:34:17Etienne FontanIt ruined their reputation, though. That was where the Bull Lowell story imploded. Well, that's where people did further digging and found out. Yes, and found that none of that was real.

1:34:29SpeakerThey had a smoke lounge and they didn't clean the pipes.

1:34:38SpeakerEffectively. And someone came in with oral herpes and contaminated the pipes. And then an entire battery of people that came in after contracted herpes, mouth herpes from that situation, because that was the only common factor that all these people had.

1:34:54Etienne FontanAnd so let's remind people, cleaning pipes is a very important thing. And when we used to have an onsite dispensary where people could use, one of the main things you always had to do was alcohol and majorly clean your pipes. So it's okay if you're gonna use, but do not forget, So cleanliness is fucking important so you don't get problems like this. Because imagine you were just going to a cannabis cafe and you come out with a smack of herpes.

1:35:24Etienne FontanYeah, that was bad. It wasn't just one, you know?

1:35:27SpeakerOh, no, it was many. It was many. It was only on one instance, though. It was they made a mistake that was catastrophic. It only takes one. Yeah. But it brought the story to light. And I was cracking up because it just... We live in, you know, there's the truth, and then there's the truth that we all see. And so when you tell the story, you tell the story of the truth that you saw, not necessarily the fucking truth.

1:35:55SpeakerRight. And that's cannabis to me.

1:35:58MarkCannabis is... Are you telling me that Josh D didn't invent OG Kush?

1:36:05MarkListen, you know, I just want to say to you...

1:36:08SpeakerI'm telling you, if you don't want, if you want to find the truth, Don't pick up your truth on the Internet. No, no. You create your own truth. And unless I was in the room with you, I just try to always put some benefit of the doubt so that that way I don't get so much into dogma. And the problem is that we don't even know we have dogma because we're we're If you're American, you're American.

1:36:36SpeakerAnd when you leave the country and then you have people from other countries speak to you about how they perceive Americans, you're in hysterics because we're like a fucking cartoon character. So to me, you always have to leave some doubt of any story. But what I know in cannabis is because it had to live in the shadows, the sexier the story, the more the polish that went on it, the further we got away from anything fucking authentic.

1:37:03SpeakerAnd it hurts people's feelings when you kind of deconstruct the myths. The story's better. The myth's not fucking needed. That's the thing is Herb is so unbelievably sophisticated. It doesn't need a supporting cast. It doesn't need any hype.

1:37:21Ryan Dank AfYeah, but you've seen it a million times. It's like there's so many people in this industry that want to put themselves in the center of the story, right? They want to be the main character.

1:37:29SpeakerIt's validation. And they don't understand. It's like people that are panicking about the IG shit being dropped, right? And I'm like, well, if your whole fucking existence is on IG, that makes me wonder what you do other than be on IG.

1:37:44Ryan Dank AfYeah.

1:37:45SpeakerRight. So social media is incredible. But if you're so fucked up about your account being slowed down What is it that's so unbelievably important about that account? And is it because you're making money on it? Is it validation?

1:37:59MarkIt's also heroin, man. Take your iPad away from your kid and watch what happens, dude.

1:38:08SpeakerFor a 40-year-old, though, I'm telling you, 40-year-old male right now, Is is is some of the oddest shit I ever see online is when I and I can kind of see your age by little little nuances in communication but it's they've they've learned to use this play so kids today like when I talk to my kids none of them communicate that way online they're like oh that shit's taboo they go that's your the generation below you dad that's Their form of communication online.

1:38:39SpeakerWe grew up with the tool, so we treat it like we're in person. You guys treat it like you're on a fucking island and somebody can't reach you at some point in person about what you're saying. And it just creates this rage. And so what I see when I'm seeing discourse online, it's whoever has the loudest voice and can type the quickest. Seems to be correct. And it removes any kind of like real discussion where you should be.

1:39:10SpeakerIf I say something like I did the other day, sometimes I talk in absolutes. I'm like, nobody does that. What I really mean is like 90 fucking 8% of people don't do it. And so someone comes out with an outlier and they're like, look, here's an outlier, you're wrong. And I'm like, well, no shit. But if you can only find one fucking instance, Of what disqualifies this massive population, right?

1:39:32SpeakerThe preponderance of evidence says I would bet on that. I look at it like in a statistical point of view that once we get to a certain point, it is the majority. It just is. And so but if you can come up with the outlier, I'm like, awesome, you're right. We don't have to fight over like anyone is the smartest person in the room because at the end of the day, we're only smart in our lane.

1:39:58SpeakerSo, you know, and so you got to be able to have some space to be able to communicate, but it can't be, it can't be ad hominem, which is like what happens with you is I noticed that you trigger people because you tell them something that absolutely fucking shocks their value system because their information was based off of what they imagined. And you say, hey, this is actually how it works.

1:40:24SpeakerAnd because you're telling them something that isn't, Refutable. It's just fat. It fucks them up emotionally. And what they do is they come at you emotionally in an ad hominem attack because you've hurt them so deeply because you've challenged their very fucking essence of their... Yeah, their grower shit.

1:40:44MarkAnd it's crazy. Chimera delusion syndrome or whatever it is.

1:40:51SpeakerHe's throwing leather through the screen. But it's... That's the only way we're going to learn. And so I don't mind admitting I'm wrong if I can get upgraded information. Half the shit we know, we know wrong. It's only through the course of your life that you're really able to correct all this stuff. I mean, fuck, if you're looking at anything scientific, every theory has been refuted to a degree, even fucking physics, because quantum physics doesn't operate the same.

1:41:19SpeakerSo every time we get deeper and deeper into the wormhole, we start to understand how little we understand. But the problem with the communication online is that so many people are not leathered, meaning that their skin isn't thick. So if you tell me to fuck off on the internet, I don't go home and hang myself. I don't really care. I go have a cup of coffee and I go smoke a joint and I go fucking spend time with my kids.

1:41:44SpeakerBut for so many people, they're more tender. And that's not a negative. It's just the human population is softened in some regards in terms of exterior.

1:41:54MarkWords are violent for them.

1:41:56SpeakerYeah, they are. That's a brilliant way to say it. Words are violent. And so for me, I try never to be disrespectful to someone on it, because really what I want to do is I want to have people that otherwise wouldn't enter our space. Enter our space. And I'm from a very different background, but I know that the people that we want to have come into cannabis is the diverse, most biggest pool, just like when we're working with gene pool in breeding.

1:42:22SpeakerYou want the most to begin with so that you can really have what you want to chase. And I think that that's the issue with the online situation and information and cannabis is that people have developed such strong opinions based off of whatever that they got it from, that when you shock them, they have a nervous breakdown. And the 40, 40, early 40, I'm 60, early 40 year old male right now is emotionally fucking traumatized.

1:42:52SpeakerIt's crazy. You know, it's funny. I've been involved.

1:42:56MarkBye. Peace, y'all. See you later, Mark.

1:42:58Ryan Dank AfThanks for talking to me, Mark. I've been in enough of these situations online. Just, you know, I haven't been involved with this for so long now. It's like the Sam, you know, David Watson, his DEA stuff, right, that's going on. For years, people swore up and down that it was reality. And, you know, folks like Marcus and myself, we knew David, we knew Sam, right? And, you know, when you start chasing down the truth, there's little kernels of truth that get bastardized into some big, crazy rumor, right?

1:43:32Ryan Dank AfLike, for example, David, your Sam used to export or did, has exported seeds to the University of Mississippi from Holland. And that was done with a DEA license that was granted to University of Mississippi, right? And that little kernel of truth gets snowballed into this big story that somehow Sam is working for the DEA, which is complete nonsense, right? But it's like I've seen it so many times now throughout the last 20 years that it's like the story that is the common story that's told in public versus the real story that you know to be factual and true that isn't told in public or it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, it's like that old expression.

1:44:15Ryan Dank AfIt's like, Thank you for watching.

1:44:33Ryan Dank AfWell, Phylos invented a gene cannon.

1:44:56SpeakerThat you could use to spray code on. So you could you could resurrect any dead material. Right. And I was being told that they invented this gene gun to resurrect any material ever discovered. And I said, let me get this straight. You invent a gun that can resurrect any fucking code ever created. And your fucking green crack cut is what they chose to fucking do. Yeah. Right.

1:45:19SpeakerLike the whole it goes nuts. But I understand why it happened. To me, it was like this. There was a twofold component where you're having a societal collapse in cannabis and we're being nullified. And for the first time, people in cannabis found out they didn't have any fucking real money. So everyone was making money in cannabis. We're all making money. We're making lawyer money. We're making doctor money.

1:45:44SpeakerWell, when you got into legal cannabis, you got to learn what fucking VC money was. Right. And it instantly humbled everyone that was in commercial cannabis. So people who were doing, you know, small indoors, doing small stuff, a small outdoor cannabis. They didn't experience it the same way because their intent was more, I would say, pure to produce a little bit of sale of the smoke. But when you're doing like commercial size work, you have this idea of where you are in this ecosystem.

1:46:15SpeakerAnd then when cannabis became legal for the first time in US, you got to see giant fucking entities pour in and pour dollars down. And I think at first is what it did is it broke everybody down emotionally. And the only thing that cannabis people had left was the two things. We got the genes and we got the culture. And so they clung to these things as if that was what was going to sell the pot for them.

1:46:42SpeakerAnd every time somebody went at any of it, it got worse and worse for emotionally. Now there's so fucking few people left in cannabis that used to exist in cannabis. That it's not really, it's a very different situation. People have become very accepting of the fact that they're getting their ass whipped, that they're not special, and that you got to convince people to smoke your weed because you're in a price war.

1:47:06SpeakerBut at that moment, there was still decent money for weed. There was still the memory of the freedom. And when these companies came in and started to say, you guys can't breed, people lost their fucking minds because they didn't understand what that meant. It didn't mean that you couldn't create things that have been economically viable for time, but you can't create products that are uniform that can be grown by fucking seed for simplicity and cost effectiveness.

1:47:37SpeakerAnd no one looked at cost effectiveness at that time. Like people weren't running books at all. You were making so much fucking margin on the work that there was no accounting.

1:47:48Ryan Dank AfWell, and they were living like rock stars. I mean, I remember going, and it was like, you know, people running like three, four properties at a time. Each property is pulling down 99 trees at like five, five pounds, at least a million.

1:48:01SpeakerThey're doing a million dollars a year cash.

1:48:06Ryan Dank AfAnd they're like tripping all over the world and spending money like it's going out of style like they're fucking rock stars and nobody put any money aside. Nobody invested. Nobody like, you know, nobody protected their futures and they just assumed that next year was going to be the same and next year after that was going to be the same and the gravy train would never stop.

1:48:24SpeakerRight. So long. That was the thing is that that herb run was forever. So you you created children who only knew cannabis opulence. Right. So like I come from the I'm born in the 60s. I raised in the 70s. I got to watch the rise of cannabis. But when I got out to the West Coast, you know, and so I realized, like, wow, you guys were born into this reality.

1:48:53SpeakerAnd it emotionally just smashed people. And I don't think anybody's ever, until you pitch for money, you don't realize how many fucking lies you got to tell to get it. So like you have to have a really good deck, but you have to be able to make that shit look like it's the Mona Lisa or it just gets ignored. And Money pitches, I always say it's the same thing.

1:49:17SpeakerIf somebody, if you were young and you were at the bar or a club and you were trying to get a date, if someone recorded you and no one knew what you were saying, like you didn't know that you were being recorded, What would you be telling the person you were trying to go on a date with? You'd be trying to let them know how fucking phenomenal you were so that you would be able to make this happen.

1:49:38SpeakerAnd I'm like, if you could ever listen to that conversation to an audience, it would horrify you because it's an over-exaggeration Because it's a desire.

1:49:49Ryan Dank AfWell, and that's what happened to the pub coast too, right? I mean, why they all blew apart is because they told these fantastical stories that had like next to no basis in fact. And then when it came time to putting the rubber on the road, like they just couldn't, they couldn't live up to the story that they had told.

1:50:05SpeakerNo, but they were great storytellers. I mean, they raised fucking, how many, some of these companies pulled in billions.

1:50:11Ryan Dank AfI know. Mind-bending, billions. Listen, in those years, I was trying to pitch reality to VCs, and they weren't interested. No, no. The story wasn't fantastical enough. And it was like the truth and the fact that you're trying to give them an honest story, that wasn't good enough for them. These people want to be bamboozled by the diamonds.

1:50:33SpeakerThey need the allure of huge returns quick. Yeah. And honest. And that's the problem is that you if if you go to do it now, you know, to go put on your cannabis leaf suit. So they walk in there. They really know, you know, the topic. So, I mean, there's this. The whole fucking persona is crazy. But it was that we got to see the era. I mean, I remember when when I first got to Humboldt.

1:50:58SpeakerThe game in Humboldt County at that time was to look as poor as possible publicly. Right. And so I meet all these people at a club one night and I thought it was like a fucking homeless convention. And the next day I'm up the hill doing a deal and I'm at this guy's mansion in the fucking forest and we're both dying. And I said, he goes, dude, it's like our joke, but we have this incredible secrecy in our lives.

1:51:25SpeakerAnd when we go to town, we always have shitty hill rigs and we always look broke and we have our real life we hide and then we leave the country and go do what we do. I remember when that secrecy changed and everyone started wearing gold chains or big trucks because now you could display the money. And so culturally, if you've been in it long enough, you get to see these evolutions of how people behave and what they do.

1:51:51SpeakerAnd in some regards, because of the loss of money and the ease of access, like I noticed in the farming community, it's people who really fundamentally love to farm organic pie. That if you're still here, it's because you have a very different desire and you've accepted that it's a struggle and you've accepted that it's low margin and you've accepted that you're going to have to do other work outside of your farm so that you can maintain because really it's a long game in terms of protecting heritage assets.

1:52:26SpeakerSo, you know, all these transitions have been brutal in any company that came through and created any ripple or any individual. Holy fuck, man. It was like an online bloodbath. And now basically a lot of it just dies down because herb isn't so secret. You don't have to live online. Right. You can go fucking buy it anywhere now. When people offer you something that sounds too good to be true, it is.

1:52:55SpeakerOh, for sure. I always want to know the downside. There's no such, I just need to know the downside. And if someone can't describe it, I just know it's a pitch. It's, you have to be able to calculate risk and risk calculation is the key in the old game too. It wasn't like we were all lunatics. It was that we were lunatics that could calculate risk. And we were like, all right, this is ballsy, but the odds weigh in my favor.

1:53:25SpeakerAnd I just think that you still have to still see that. And I think that when legalization came in for so many people, they believed that legalization was going to create contracts and relationships that were more actually stable than illegal. And the truth was that that wasn't true at all. 100%. People learned that just because you have ownership in a company or you're part of something doesn't mean shit because the people driving it.

1:53:51SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:54:10Ryan Dank AfYou were out.

1:54:11SpeakerYou had no value. Yeah, you couldn't get in the flow.

1:54:15Ryan Dank AfExactly. So it was, you know, although it was illegal, it was based on honor and integrity. And if you didn't have honor and integrity, you were out.

1:54:24SpeakerI have a question, which is, could you name a couple of the varieties that you bred, Kevin?

1:54:37SpeakerDolly. A lot of the stuff that I do, Sam, is like replication work to hold stock. And then to create populations of stock that I would be able to put through the process before. So the stuff that I'm involved with is really projects where I put pieces into it. So I provide plants and clones that I think have agronomic value, commercial value, and I put them in the hands of other breeders.

1:55:12SpeakerAnd so for me, I'm not really a breeder, Sam. What I do is I... I understand the market's desire for product. I think my skill is in interpretation. And so what I do is I locate plants of interest that I just, in dealings, and I realize that this plant would be useful in a project and I place it with people. So there's a full network of individuals that do breeding companies all over that part of their project came from me.

1:55:48Speakerbut not in a financial way what what i want is i want to be able to develop relation this has been a strategy my whole career sam that i was somebody who always could access genes and what i wanted was i wanted to spread the genes out around me so that there was constantly new material coming through my hands what i did was i built operations And when I built your operation, I would do the development of the operation off of plants that I was doing R&D on.

1:56:21SpeakerAnd so when I was able to create an operation, I could then subsequently become your clone provider to feed you the material That you use. So what I was looking for was clonal selections that had extreme velocity in sales that made the grow process simple because the idea of removing people from the grow at the time was critical. So you had less security issues. So that's how I, this has been like, that would be nineties, right?

1:56:49SpeakerSo in the nineties, that's what I was doing. And I never really wanted to get heavily into breeding because the work required to really do it. My mother was a research geneticist. So I grew up in a house with fucking fruit fly experiments. And I realized that that's not where I wanted to be. What I wanted to be was to work with breeders But my skill was an interpretation of what a quality plant was and what the market likes.

1:57:19Ryan Dank AfThe one thing that blew me away when I met you was your ability to understand the plants in all these different environments. Like there's nobody else that I ever came across that understood all these different cultivars and how they would perform in different environments, like along the coast or in the hills. And what that would generate on the market. Like it was, you were like a fucking encyclopedia in that way.

1:57:44SpeakerAnd that's what I dig, Ryan, is I like, in my mind, I'm a field scientist because I love to see the activity and the action. And for me being able to locate incredible plants out of populations and then interject them into other people's breeding operations so that they can go do the work and the development, It allows me to be able to, I guess my goal originally was I wanted to see a lot of good herb in the system.

1:58:12SpeakerAnd because like for me, herb kind of gave me a life I wouldn't have had. As I was developing, I was somebody that was kind of an anomaly in that world because I shared the genes with people that weren't considered like special. So if you and I were friends and you had to grow, I would let you access material that you couldn't have got your hands on any other way.

1:58:35SpeakerBut I didn't have any restrictions to you in terms of you owe me anything. I'm like, look, this plant could probably change your life. And for a lot of people, when you give them the right clone, I bought them a house. If you give them the right clone, it helped them pay for the kids to go to college. And so what I didn't understand was that when I was planting those fields of sharing material that was very hard for average people to get their hands on, I didn't really realize that they would get older with me and their kids would get older.

1:59:03SpeakerAnd what occurred was I was really cultivating a population of people that I had helped when they were considered not valuable and they grew up to be valuable. And so it wasn't an intent. It's just, it's weird, but like it gave me a reach into cannabis that's unusual because when you help people, when they aren't considered valuable and they end up having a very good life and become valuable, they always remember your ass for being cool when you didn't need to be.

1:59:32SpeakerAnd so I'll get emails and phone calls from people that are like, yo, Like, I don't know if you remember me, but you helped me tremendously 15 years ago when I needed some help. And I've waited all these years because I have this incredible life and I want to reach out to you and say thank you. And it was all through plant sharing. So that plant sharing allowed me to have this really beautiful life in terms of like feeling like you were doing something positive in the world of cannabis that wasn't financial.

2:00:05SpeakerBut I didn't expect it to create such an incredible network of access. I didn't realize that I was creating this web of access to things all over the globe. And because of it, it lets you touch stuff that people around you don't get to touch. And by being able to utilize 50 breeders, be able to work on 50 different projects around the world, and it lets me work with people that are far smarter than I am, which is phenomenal.

2:00:32Ryan Dank AfYou know, it's so not that unlike what Sam did with the International Hemp Association and Hortifarm and what Bubble Man has done with Hash Church, right? Like you become the center spoke for this hub of a wheel and you're giving people the tools to build their futures. Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

2:00:53BubblemanAnd not just giving the tools, Ryan, because it's, you know, Kevin getting genetics to people like key clones, that's incredible. But the real incredible part and the reason why it grew into what it grew into is because he didn't put limitations on them. No, it's the information. The rules, right? Oh, I'll give you this clone, but you can't share it with anyone. Don't give it out. Don't do anything.

2:01:15BubblemanYou know, it's just like, no, just give it out. Let it go out. Let people do what they're going to do with it, and you will create something much more valuable than you would have had you gone into it with a fear and scarcity sort of perspective.

2:01:31Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, it comes, it wasn't, I didn't mean the tools and just as the genes, but it's like, You know, Kevin is someone that approaches this with such passion and, and love. It's like, it's not about the clones. It's about the, the clones and the context and the information. Right. It's like he really was setting people up to win. And that's so rare in this industry. You know, I've had a few people.

2:01:57Ryan Dank AfUm, that I've met, I've ended up meeting later through the industry and they, you know, they've come back to me and been like, you know, this is just like you said, like the cabin, it's like, you know, it's like you gave me, you allowed me to pay for like three houses and put my kids through college, right? Like my, and my ex wife's house and you know, my kids and their, their university degrees and all that stuff.

2:02:17Ryan Dank AfIt's like, you know, just because you shared some things with them.

2:02:21SpeakerSo it's, it's hella gratifying. And I like the preservation end, Sam. And preservation, I understand it's limited in terms of like population size, but it's more a preservation of understanding that material that we play with from other locations, if we can get it into the hands of people, what we start to do is bring awareness. And I think that that's what the small cultivators really have to understand is that Your small cultivator community is your immediate community around you in your town, and then in your state, then in your country, but it's around the world.

2:03:00SpeakerAnd I think that when you travel and you work in enough locations, which I've been really fortunate to do, that small culture, that small cultivator, they're still the same. It's a passionate endeavor. The money's needed, but the desire and the historical relevance is the connection. And I think that we got so caught up in our myopic views of who's created products and where they came from that if you can get material from Laos into the market and get people to understand that they like these products and this is why and what population enjoys it, it starts to bring value to the people in Laos.

2:03:41SpeakerI think that cannabis, because it's global and because you have access now for the first time in ways we've never had prior, There has to be this globalization mentality for the cultivators to understand that you're not siloed, that you have an ability to create relationships and create derived benefit and I think that that's just, it's phenomenal. It's just trying to get it into play. But for many people, they've never had, I mean, fuck, we didn't have this access.

2:04:13SpeakerIf you started growing right now in 2024, you have enough information to create anything you want online for free. You could go on YouTube and literally go to enough lectures to where you had an understanding that none of us ever had. It's amazing. It's amazing. Like I've never, I always just trip out on it. So what I know is that like I'm siloed in my past and how we operated.

2:04:41SpeakerAnd it's going to be the people that come in next that'll take it to the level. They'll build on Sam's work. Because all of us that like scientific stuff, that's where all the base information came from. I researched all of you guys. So all this time we're all working on our own fields. I know to look at people who are better than I am at what they do so that I'm able to get the understanding and not have to go spend.

2:05:04SpeakerIt's kind of like the whole concept of this lecture was difference between seed and clone. And the thing you have with seed and clone is seed is fucking easy to store and to germinate. As a farmer, if you could just receive your genetics in a package or break them out of a vault in a package and then crack them and you got uniformity enough to sell it as a lot, because when we're talking pounds now, it's 50 pound minimum on a test, right?

2:05:34SpeakerSo 50 pounds is a batch. So if I can get 50 homogenous pounds from seed, That means I don't have to schedule anything with the nursery. I don't have to do my own in-house nursery. That means I don't have to worry about, and even with like TC, right? So say you get a load of TC plants and they've hormonally fucking charged them a little heavy to where they don't want to extend or they don't want to go into a vegetative state.

2:06:01SpeakerYou can fuck up the hormone level in the agar and the plant doesn't want to flower. So like I've seen enough problems in propagation to know that the only thing that makes me have total control of it with the least amount of stress is seed. Like if I could run my whole farm from seed and be able to effectively move it, it would completely change the labor of your operation.

2:06:39BubblemanSorry about that. I guess I was needed there for a second. Yeah, that's an interesting way to put it for sure. I guess it's why they've been working on all of these different ways. I mean, the seed is the God given, right? The seed is from the creator. It's the ultimate packaging to plant from. But you've always got, you know, scientists and agronomists and people that are focused on also figuring out ways to make that a little bit easier.

2:07:06BubblemanA little bit easier if it's possible. I'm not sure. It's certainly not my area of expertise. I love the fact that there are people focused on breeding because it makes it easy for me. My interest is to find people who pay enough attention to this that they understand what good genetics are and they understand how to get good genetics to express themselves. And that's when I come into the hash making process.

2:07:33BubblemanBut I sure appreciate... What a lot of you on the panel do in regards to the work that requires to be done to make stronger cannabis, to make tastier cannabis and to, I guess, Kevin, in a sense, it's great what you're doing too, is that you're offering access for companies into these flavor profiles and you have that deeper understanding of those flavor profiles and what's popular and what's trending to be able to get them into that so quickly without them having to take years and years and years to gain access to those by that time the flavor profile trends have switched and changed it's pretty pretty cool man it what what a lot of you know the thing is that

2:08:22SpeakerYou have to make it clear that there's really two cannabis industries. There's the industry where you're licensed and you're forced to operate under those constraints and the one where you're not. And they're not interchangeable. The one that's licensed margin is fucking critical because your margins are so minimal. And so you have to be able to work on that reality. And so that's a separate to me breeding category, selection category.

2:08:56SpeakerAnd then the home grower and those that are working in the illicit, and they're moving it in and they're filling the void that legal cannabis does not provide. So they're two different groups. And they both require specificity, but they're both fucking fascinating to work in. I mean, that's really the truth of it is that being able to see uniformity, consistency, unbelievable, and then being able to go into clonal selection for the outliers that we haven't been able to put into line form, it just creates a situation where like you're never bored.

2:09:34SpeakerSo like, just like with you and Hash, like your evolution, I got to hang out with the Brazilian dude yesterday at the high church. He's a cat from him and his partner came from Brazil and they live in the Emerald Triangle and he's a killer hash maker, but he brought me a bunch of static tech. And it was killer. Oh yeah. And he broke it out, but he was, and I said, oh, we got to get you on a show sometime because it would be fascinating to listen to someone who was born and raised in Brazil and about the culture of cannabis in Brazil, the whole, how it's approached, the restrictions, illegalities, struggles, access, but just, you know, fascinating.

2:10:14SpeakerAnd his direction is things that work well for him in that technology. And so, you know, being able to be part of the world right now, the tools are really, really, really fucking extensive, but you can go totally opposite of the science tech end of it and just go into pure expression of enjoyment for the customer. And that's fascinating too, because it's not COA driven. So like, it's almost like the COA is the, is this separating line between how you're approaching it, where if the COA matters, Then there's an entire process to go that route.

2:10:52SpeakerAnd if it doesn't, it doesn't.

2:10:55BubblemanWell, the COA is the thief of authenticity. And, you know, the plant wants to be authentic. When you hit that authenticity note, people connect and relate and really create a connection to that particular cultivar. And I think some of the people in the commercial environment don't really understand. That's something that's missing, you know, the same way you could see the AI missing parts of you when you ask it questions.

2:11:20BubblemanThey're missing that part of cannabis in a big way, unfortunately.

2:11:26SpeakerYeah, it's been nice. A lot of the hemp laws have made shit cool, too. So, like, we got the Grateful Head going over in the East Coast, and that's a, we call it a global cannabis repository. And it's just that what we're able to do is amass some really good collections from the members of the group that are vetted collections, where you have some Thank you so much for joining us.

2:12:19SpeakerIt come to you clean. And so the ability to get third party verification, the ability to get the plants in that initial form for a lot of people that they just don't get the access. And so The tools I think are what needed because like I said, to me, hobby breeders, like to me, I'm a hobby breeder. So I see it as where you get to passionately chase your direction.

2:12:47SpeakerAnd then you have individuals that are doing scientific breeding where it's an extremely limited range of what they're trying to achieve. It's very narrowed. And the access to the initial source plant material is the same. You have to start somewhere. And I think that what you see in a lot of operations is that people begin their process with what I would say poor source material. So when you come into larger operations, I always ask who selected the library?

2:13:16SpeakerLike you're selling this product. You have $100 million facility. These are the products you are producing. Who chose them? And why did you choose them? And so I think that the idea of what is good source material and what you should produce and where does your end product land? I have a question for you, which is what percentage of plants that you see out there, especially clones, are intersex?

2:13:46SpeakerOh, I see a lot. I see a lot, Dave. And what I noticed is It's really because the fact that, and this is like an opinion, but from doing reversals, what I know is that plants that reverse the easiest also are most plastic in terms of that expression. And I think that when you're doing all this reversal work, you're so intent on creating the product that you're not understanding that you're creating products that have intersex susceptibility or propensity.

2:14:22SpeakerAnd so for me, even with anything that I do, it's something that I just have to call. And so even if plants have, you know, some subtle expression of it, I got to pull them out of the process. And even with the males, you have to take the male all the way out to pass fruition to see if the males it goes intersects. And I just think that, you know, we have an ability with scientific equipment to measure, but Not for the home breeder.

2:14:47SpeakerAnd I think that with the Rise STS breeding, which I think is fascinating because it lets everybody create seed. I think that what you've done is you've made poor parental selection and you've increased that rate. And I think that we don't, I don't see it as much under outdoor lighting where like if I'm doing stress testing, what I really want to do is put it under some steered LED.

2:15:08SpeakerSomething about that narrow band spectrum that LED provides seems to really bring out intersex characteristics quickly. So photo period stressing varieties will absolutely cause a lot of expression of intersex. But I've seen it from a million other environmental, you know, from Thank you so much for joining us.

2:16:03SpeakerSo many varieties because of that linkage to intersex. And it's hard to find plants that don't have it genetically and even more so under environmental stress. But I guarantee you can find them. They are out there. And if you do enough stress testing for years on a single clone, You'll be able to tell. And when you use those individuals, I've never seen intersex progeny coming up from my STS usage.

2:16:45SpeakerWe started using it, I don't know, about 1990. Oh, yeah, no, I don't think the STS is the issue, Sam. I think it's the fact that when you are using STS, the plants that initiate intersex, It's kind of like when you're doing reversals on plants in terms of like a revegetation. The more equatorial the plant is, the more the subtle light influence makes the transition. So if I take a Colombian all the way into flower and dig it up and bring it in and put it under light so I can recover that plant, its transition back to vegetative is far more elegant than that of a determinant, say, 35 degree Pakistani.

2:17:25SpeakerYeah, no, that's absolutely true. And I've had plants which once they really started to flower, you could not revenge it no matter what you did. Yeah, frustrating. And so I think it's similar to that in that regard. And I think that it's just that when you're when you're doing all this work and you're you're You're trying to succeed. You'll make concessions for that. But if you're really breeding, you don't.

2:17:58SpeakerThat's the difference is you're being highly discerning. For me, it's in selection, which if the shit doesn't work, it doesn't work. I don't care what emotional connection I have to it. I used to have a saying, I just love to kill. And that's exactly like you say. I mean, it's kind of like what Luther Burbank did. You know, he used huge populations and got rid of everything that didn't fit his agenda.

2:18:25SpeakerNo, and that's exactly who, when I started to really take a look at population genetics and breeding selection, it was Burbank, because in California, there was all these things named after Luther Burbank, and I didn't realize who he was until I saw the connection. And It was his level of discernment, which was select only the finest and call all rest. And I started to take a look at other breeding processes or in terms of crops and animals.

2:18:56SpeakerSo I could start to see some of the commonalities and the end of the day, the successful, Projects always were really where they had done the work on the parental lines in terms of what came from it. And they had maintained them so they could continue moving that line forward. Where most people, they don't check the progeny. So the problem with STS work is you sell something, but you're not necessarily testing out all the work that you're doing.

2:19:26SpeakerSo much of the seed stock that I see available All of that is unproven. So you have a something and a something and you put it together and you sell it. But what you have really is an untested line. And what we've done is we've moved all this untested material into the system. And because people get a hold of it and they have a desire and it does well, it's just that you don't really understand that when you breed that plant, it is going to bring a poor direction.

2:19:56SpeakerThe outcome isn't always what's expected. I always say I'm a good breeder male because my kids look like their mom. So I don't, I don't, I only passed a couple traits across. I only, I passed blue eyes and I passed some eye shape. But other than that, my children look identical to their mothers. So I'm like, I say I'm a really good breeder male. I bring some very known traits and I let all the good traits of the female pass through.

2:20:22SpeakerAnd if you look at me though, I'm just average guy, but I guess I'm really above average kids. And I laugh and I'm like, it's because my influence is low and it allows... Thank you for joining us today.

2:20:56SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:21:20SpeakerSeries issues. And so you kind of have to really steer for this plant was developed for this location, this operation and this methodology. So like at the R&D facility, we do indoor, outdoor and mix light. The indoor test op gives us 84 different zones. So there's 84 zones we can play with on computer so that we can really kind of figure out what works best for what so that when we put the map together for the cultivar to go to the operation to produce the product, they have the data set that they can plug in and they'll basically use the same Arroyo sensors, same database that allow them to be able to replicate what the R&D facility did to get that result.

2:22:04SpeakerI always found it amazing. That the seed companies were not trialing their progeny before they sold them. All the time, but that's the problem. I know, but I never did. Well, it's why I never really, like I'm about to release some seed stock. And I'm releasing it because I would say it's probably some of the best work I've done in sense where I got a hold of some work that I got to smoke an outlier, which I was upset about because it sent me down this rabbit hole, but I really enjoyed this profile and it was unique.

2:22:46SpeakerAnd so I bought a bunch of seeds from the breeder and I was hoping to find that profile as a clone. I just wanted to smoke it and have it at the house. But it wasn't in that initial cluster. And so I opened up the population and I found it and it was only at like one in 100 on a frequency. And I wanted to be able to not have to hold the clone if I could increase the frequency so that I could just keep the seed so that when I wanted to go run through, I could.

2:23:14SpeakerAnd as I get older, I don't want to hold plants the same way I did when I was young. So like the amount of work you want to do around your personal use changes. And so I went into the line and I was able to get the frequency up to around 40 out of 100. And that was reasonable to me where you have a four out of 10 chance to get that profile that used to be one in 100.

2:23:37SpeakerAnd so it was beautiful. And then the people that got to consume it, smoke it, really liked it. And it just gives people a work. We're into the F3. This F4 will come out next. But it lets me get a profile into the public that you can't get your hands on because the original work is done. There hasn't been any re-releases. And I didn't want to knock off my partner's work.

2:24:01SpeakerBut if you take a line a couple of years down into sorting, what you have is you have a worked line that I think is pretty good. And I want to release it into the public so that the people can get access to some of these profiles that are just kind of contrary to what we have right now. We've concentrated the consumption profiles so heavily in the candy gas range.

2:24:24SpeakerThat there's, it's almost like you go to the store to buy a pie and you can only buy an apple pie. And there's, there's many pies. And I'm just saying you need to open up the assortment of pies. And so that's some, I would say was like a really good breeding project because I got to go run through the populations and look for the males that carried the traits.

2:24:46SpeakerAnd it just took time to be able to put it all together. And how do you test your, your males? The mail test is, at first I'm looking at the mail for traits of interest that I want to see, but then what I do is I mark it and I lay it into a known plant and I take a look to see what results came from it.

2:25:07SpeakerAnd you're looking at progeny testing. I'm looking at progeny testing and I'm trying to see population ratios of as I'm steering through this male gave these impacts across what population and that kind of lets me understand better its impact. And then I'm trying to line up the females that also carry that similar trait so that what I'm trying to do is stack As much of that potential as possible because it was such a recessive trait that if I had known how many years I was going to have to spend to really like hunt it out, I don't know if I would have done it, right?

2:25:48SpeakerI would have said, fuck, it's just, it's all right. I smoked it once, I liked it. But because it was so interesting, it was this crazy tootsie roll with like rose oil and cinnamon. And it was just this really beautiful matrix of that red Lebanese from BAM into Bob Hemphill's Puck line. And so it, and a lot of, and there was a lot of quality through the whole work.

2:26:10SpeakerIt was just really some really interesting consumptive cannabis. But I just happened to find a mouth that was just absolutely interesting. And so I just dove down the rabbit hole and it didn't come out easily. And so what I wanted to do was just apply good breeding practices and play with it to see, could I steer the population to a more reasonable expectation without losing some of the other traits?

2:26:38SpeakerAnd you started to notice link traits. You started to see patterns. Where you're able to see what profiles and what agronomic features come along with certain aromas, where as you saw the populations move, you could start to see these clusters. And so it's just fascinating to be able to actually, I would say, do professional breeding work But that's why I never really got into a professional lead because my interest was in plant selection and then operational development and then market analysis, right?

2:27:13SpeakerSo like that's, that was my base was in hustling. And so, and then in the actual craft of creating, but breeding requires to me like multi-year dives into a very specific direction. And that commitment, it has to be true. You can't lose track of anything you're doing through the process. And I was so caught up with looking at a million different plants that I had to choose one direction or another.

2:27:42SpeakerI didn't think that I could do both accurately. And because my mother was a scientist, I think I had maybe higher expectations of what the word meant. And so I never deluded myself into saying I was that. Like, I'll definitely say I'm a selector or I'm somebody who understands where a plant belongs. But the creator of it I am fortunate that I got to spend so many years working with brilliant people that were developed in the process.

2:28:12SpeakerAnd so I helped them understand what they're looking for. But then I was able to get the knowledge on kind of how to operate on a level. And I started studying dog breeding too, because the ability to change a dog's morphological traits is fast. And there's intangibles that you seek that move and it's more recorded than cannabis. So it lets me understand how they create their first book of population, what comes into the population and how you can really look at these coefficients of inbreeding to understand where you're going to start to stack negative traits.

2:28:50SpeakerAnd so I started trying to like look at the process of cannabis breeding and cannabis And so I noticed that when Bob Hemphill did his pup work, he did almost like a lion breeding where he went back into the parental stock of all these varieties and sifted and worked to get to something that was pretty much what he was seeking, which was a replication of that 88 Skelly hash plant.

2:29:22SpeakerAnd so you can, it's just neat, man. I'm grateful that I got to be in the industry long enough that I got to really play around with a lot of stuff. I found that really a lot of people do not understand what their males are doing because they don't spend the time to do true progeny testing. It's, it's, Like for me, what I realized was that if I take the time limit off and I just say that I'm doing it because I want to seek it, then it makes it easy because you're not trying to wonder when you're going to get to release the seeds to make the money so you can go to the next thing.

2:30:04SpeakerAnd I think that you have to kind of For companies, that's not the case. Companies that are in genomic development, they have timelines. And so there has to be expedited and therefore it does limit. Like when you start to work the inbred lines that they're using to create these new F1 cultivars that are seed stable to a degree within a statistical, at least significant level of deviation, they work.

2:30:32SpeakerThat whole process of the compression and what does work and what doesn't, it's about pace. Where I think for the home grower, the individual who wants to just really dive into something in a direction, it's just really about not losing your focus on what you're doing because otherwise then you really do get genetic drift. And genetic drift, I think people think it means the genes are moving, but genetic drift in terms of breeding terms means you're losing track of the traits of interest.

2:31:01SpeakerSo you're slowly moving away from the very reason you started. And once you move away enough, you've lost that genetic material. You won't be able to get back. And I think that for people who wanted to do, you know, work like stuff like I do, which is like, I would say like craft work, meaning small scale for a specific direction. They just have to be able to take the timeline away.

2:31:26SpeakerThey have to say it might take me two or three years to get what I want, but do I like it enough today? That in three years from today, I'd still enjoy smoking it. So I make the decision of this is just excellent cannabis. I don't give a fuck if it was 1970 or 2070, this would still be good weed. That lets me know that it's worth the work.

2:31:49SpeakerAnd then I just keep logs. And then you're able to, I do indoor work for stress testing, but I get to do outside work in a light depth to be able to get the numbers I need. Because I want to see at least a couple hundred at a time. In a professional SIFT, for me, looking at 3,000, 4,000 of a population is a good size. But for the home SIFT, if we can do outdoor, you're able to look at a couple hundred at a time.

2:32:19SpeakerIt lets me pull some decent plants out of that cluster and then rerun those inside. That lets me see the impact and it also gives me my stress test simultaneously. And then once you're able to kind of tie it in, you're able to now take that work and lock it up in seed form and you can put it away And you've made a contribution to the cannabis industry in a way that's kind of unique where you've put a product into the world of potentiality that's been thoughtful.

2:32:48SpeakerSo you've selected for things that had good resistance. You've selected for things that have good effect. The visuals and the flavor are attractive, which means other people want to play with it. You yourself enjoy the consumption enough to where you don't care. When you put all that together, I think you're putting quality products into the system and the ability to be able to, it's like my gal's a seed saver.

2:33:13SpeakerShe's like a natural propagator, but she does all the garden plants, does all the flowers. And so she's always gathering seed from everything so that every year she can go repollinate and create. Is she part of the seed savers exchange? No, no, she just does this on her own as just someone who is naturally interested in plants and has a good knack for propagation. And so it's like I get to see like the original human.

2:33:44SpeakerAnd so to me, that's kind of how I see a lot of people in cannabis, where if they're doing some decent work, you're putting good material into the world that allows other people to play with it and refine it. It's about interest. You have to get participation in order for things to really thrive. And if you make cannabis so difficult to access, if you make it so that the information is not present, you don't get people caught up.

2:34:11SpeakerAnd it's hobbyists who become powerhouses.

2:34:17SpeakerThe desire to learn. I talked to a guy the other day from Australia. And it was amazing on his research, but he had been electrocuted on a job site. And I mean, like high voltage, it just blasted him. Lost ability to walk, couldn't speak. I mean, a complete problem. And it's almost like it unlocked a pathway in his mind because he He becomes this, this like chem.

2:34:43SpeakerAnd I asked him, I said, what did you do prior to being electrocuted? He goes, I was a painter. He said, but I got electrocuted. And it, it, it, it set me down this rabbit hole about he was, his body became so sensitized. He could pick up what production methodology created the cannabinoids and the impact on his body due to the lipid production in the cannabis itself.

2:35:07SpeakerAnd synthetic nitrogens did not create the same type of lipid profile on a molecular level, which allowed him to be able to instantly identify where it had been grown based off of the impact to him as this individual. So he goes and does this complete white paper on this. And he reached out to me kind of just to be an audience so that he could kind of spit it out for the first time in public.

2:35:33SpeakerAnd I was amazed and I thought he was a fucking physicist. And when he said to me, no, I was a house painter, but I got electrocuted. And this is the result. It was this understanding that for people who need to have a longer resonance in high, having these higher natural fat levels present in the cannabis plant itself facilitates that. And it's, it's, I didn't get that from, from a scientist as much as I got it from someone who was electrocuted, who was a house painter.

2:36:04SpeakerAnd it was brilliant research. And so, you know, to me, that's, that's the interesting part of this is that if you're able to, to, you know, add something positive to the system, what you get to live in is, is in a time unlike any other, you know, we're, we're, we're communicating globally at a level that's never been done. And with cannabis right now, it's just, it's amazing.

2:36:31SpeakerIt's amazing. I trip out, man, because like Hash Church is legendary. More people probably get educated on hash production around the world through this forum than any other.

2:36:42BubblemanWe hope so.

2:36:43SpeakerThat's definitely part of the mission. Oh, without question. And it's because the fact that you get the ability to archive it and then bring that out. And so for me, As you get older, it's weird, but like when you're young, you're focused on just the work. And when you get older, you're focused on how is the work going to continue. Kevin, I have a question.

2:37:06Etienne FontanYes. You were touching on, you know, you were talking about legal producers, and we know that most legal producers have only been around, we just say within the last, you know, 10 years, you know, for the most part. Before that, everybody was basically reliant on happy accidents, right? You know, for their new cultivar, as opposed to going down the serious selective process. What do you chalk that up to?

2:37:34Etienne FontanDo you think it was, you know, I know you talked about the time frame, but you know, that's a missing piece because a lot, there was so few people trying to do selection and process correctly. I mean, we can literally name them almost on a hand, you know what I'm saying? Who were doing it properly, stabilizing the genetics, growing out, You know, phenotypes properly so they could see the different ascensions so they could figure out which one was the most dominant so it would be a stable genetic.

2:38:05Etienne FontanWhereas currently we're left with, you know, a whole bunch of genetics that were stacked on top of other people's via happy accidents.

2:38:16SpeakerYou know, if you, I think that it's, if you look at, We'd say that we're going to call them like Gen Zero in the weed game in North America. It's material coming in. They're working with it. It's this process. The generation that comes after them, they are the one that comes after that. They begin to be really, they go from, we would say, seed production, organic outdoor production to indoor production due to the drug war.

2:38:47SpeakerThe money changes the methodology. So all of a sudden you're like, wait a second, I don't have to build an organic microsystem in order to make the plant work. I can use a three part. And my dad, you know, ran the seed. We run the clone. So it becomes like a first, like a cultural shift, because if the money is the same or the money's more, typically people go where the money is.

2:39:14SpeakerAnd so what we did is we took what I think is some of the best seed breed. Like when I got to Humboldt in 90, what I saw then was the last of the collections from homesteads because homesteads were built predominantly off grid. And so for all those years you had cannabis production, it was by off grid operations and they always created seed stock. And when you would go to harvest parties, when you go to people's collections, every farm, every group had their own individual worked product.

2:39:53SpeakerThe line had been saved, developed and worked and it fit them. And the market was big enough to take what was produced and there wasn't so much product to choke off the market. So the market was big enough to take all this variation so each person could effectively work a direction Thank you for joining us.

2:40:34SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:40:45SpeakerBecause the vacuum was sucking, people started, I think, to dumb down in the realities of what it is that they were doing. So when you reward people too much money, I mean, people all talk about giving this fucking story about like, I'm like a freedom fighter. I'm like, dude, you were growing a fucking indoor in a garage. I was a medical provider. I'm like, and who are you fucking providing to?

2:41:07SpeakerSo the idea that we were all cannabis fucking heroes, that's not real. It was just you were part of a culture that was doing something at a time. Were there heroes? Yes. But was every single person a hero? No. When you start to see yourself heroic and you start to see yourself overly rewarded for what you do, you start to believe you're fucking smart. So the money was so thick that it made everybody kind of dumb.

2:41:34SpeakerAnd we took good cultivation practices and we took good All of those genetic practices of stability, reliability, uniformity, and the ability that we were gathering epigenetic information from each generation that we did the sequence on because it was done at the same location, right? So over the course of seven years, you've added seven years of selection and information to that gene pool through the influence of the environment.

2:42:00SpeakerWhat you had was incredible fucking genes. People took select clones out of that and ran it indoor. And it began that collapse. And so now I think that with the internet, what I see is I see this unbelievably talented, small, two-light, four-light community emerge globally, where the best quality stuff is these small operations that are absolutely driving towards a direction of exquisiteness. And they're the ones that aren't seen because their product's not in the store.

2:42:41SpeakerBut the commercial operations, you basically create an operation based off a deck. The deck dictates what you're going to do. And some of these decks say, hey, you know, we turn seven times a year. We do 750s. We do 660s. You can't grow fucking plants of any diversity in that type of constraint.

2:43:03Bubbleman24 pages on the deck and not one mention of crop loss anywhere on the deck.

2:43:09SpeakerAnd you got to talk about a level of canopy per square foot that's fucking unbelievable. There's no human could even move in this space.

2:43:17BubblemanWade had his hand up, so I would like to go to Wade.

2:43:22WadeThank you, Marcus. I'll start with... I'm loving this conversation because it's about exploring the variations of the cannabis plant that we have access to. And I got to say that I've never claimed to be a breeder. I have done a very small scale version of what you're talking about, Kevin, of looking for versions of the plant that provide certain benefits. I wanted to put out there, if you will, an off-grid, low-key, hippie way of getting to selecting the plants that work for the people you're trying to help.

2:44:08WadeSo again, I'm talking about the medical side of the cannabis work. And what I used to do for a number of summers, I knew families who had children Or persons who were suffering with one thing or another, and particularly the kids. If I was able to have the family come to the farm and walk among the plants, it was amazing to me that something brought those kids to a plant that would help them.

2:44:41WadeAnd I'm talking in that timeframe, epilepsy, autism, spectrum disorder, cancer, just different kids that I had the chance to meet. And their families, the parents would bring them to the farm. And I'm putting it out there because I know the opportunities to do what I was doing back then are limited now. But I think there's something going on there with the connection between those persons and the plant.

2:45:15WadeAnd maybe it's the smell. Maybe it's the look. Maybe I don't know what it was, but I was pretty stunned again and again to see kids selecting plants that I would have selected based on what I knew of the genetics and the chemistry in that plant. So I'm just saying you don't have to be a scientist. You just have to be interested. And try. That's the other thing.

2:45:40WadeJust go out there and, you know, if you're not making, to Sam's point, if you're not killing a bunch of things, you're not doing it right. But you're probably not going to mess up offering cannabis products to folks in need and give them some credit for being able to identify what it is that's likely to give them the benefit they're seeking. And that's all I got. Thank you.

2:46:08SpeakerThanks, Wade. Beautiful.

2:46:13BubblemanWe've been going for three hours solid. We got about 407 people watching live right now. Hash Church has been pretty banging this 5.0 series, so I'm stoked to go for another hour. Go as deep as we can. Yeah, was it? Almost 420, you know. Almost, okay, yeah.

2:46:32Etienne FontanCall your friends and tell your friends to come get high with us right now.

2:46:36BubblemanAnd we need four more people and we'll all light up. About 14 more people, sorry.

2:46:45Etienne FontanKevin, thank you for coming in and sharing your knowledge with us. You know, your work has been legendary in Northern California and your certification program has caused people to wonder, how is it pronounced? Is it pronounced Ganjir? Ganjir?

2:47:06SpeakerHow is it properly pronounced? It's pronounced Gangier. My son came up with the name maybe, oh shit, I bet he came up with the name 11 years ago. And so he was raising 28 right now. So when he was, you know, still a teenager with braces, we're hanging out in my kitchen. And all my life I was, you know, basically you're a dope grower. And because, you know, that's what I do.

2:47:31SpeakerTo me, you have to be able to say what you can do in a sentence or you're full of shit. If I ask you what you do for a job and it takes you a fucking week to tell me, I know you're lying. You should be able to tell me what the core job is you do. And so for most of my career, it was like dope grower.

2:47:46SpeakerAnd then and then it kind of switched into like propagator because I did so much clonal production. So someone said, what do you do, Captain Cannabis on propagator? And all of a sudden I started doing all this cannabis work that was just really eclectic. And I was sitting in my kitchen and I was high and I asked my son, I said, What the fuck do you call yourself when you do all this stuff?

2:48:08SpeakerBecause otherwise it's a whole list of shit and you look like you're a pretentious asshole. I'm an operator. I'm a farmer. I'm fucking this. I said, isn't there, there must be a word. And he said, dad, you're a gone GA. And I said, and what is that? He goes, it's a cannabis culturalist. He said, you're all things herb. He goes, you just basically live in the world of herb.

2:48:31SpeakerAnd I just loved the word. And so we created a media company from it. And I used it to develop all the Golden Tarp Awards, all the seasonal spring events.

2:48:42BubblemanSo it's based off Somalia, basically.

2:48:45SpeakerCorrect, yeah. And my son, yep, and Ganja was, and I said, how'd you choose Ganja? And he said, because you always used the word Ganja when I was a little kid. He said, so to me, ganja was like my first introduction, the weed as a word. And so ganja became that phrase. And I said, man, I said, I love it. I said, I'm going to try to get it into the dictionary one day.

2:49:04SpeakerAnd he was laughing. He's like, get the fuck out of here. But we did. We turned it into... A known phrase. And for us, the Gangier, I didn't do a certification because I didn't think I was qualified. I don't think any one person is qualified. It was when Greenflower approached me and said, hey, we're going to put together a council. And the totality of the council let me realize that we might be able to get some consensus of how to look at something objectively.

2:49:35SpeakerAnd so I think that when we did that, it took two, two and a half years of work to get to that point. I think it was some of the best work I've ever done in cannabis because Everyone understood that if we could really understand what occurred, when we think about Sommelier, when we think about these upper level Epicurean products, most of our education is really from France.

2:49:57SpeakerAnd so people don't understand how that whole process occurred. They don't understand the impetus for it. They don't understand the timeline. And when you can kind of go back and really take a look And help people understand that what you have to do is you have to have common language. We have to have agreement. We have to have support and what it does and fair support where you're highlighting products regardless of position and brand.

2:50:25SpeakerSo a good product is a good product regardless of bad products, a bad product regardless. Once we can start to have that kind of agreement and understanding and a common language of how to look at something objectively, you start to value all products differently. And so like right now with the scandal in California over the pesticide shit, right? That should hopefully fucking change the way they look at these products, where if they find you have a toxic product that isn't listed in the system, but you're using it to skirt a safety law, it's like you're playing the molecular game.

2:51:02SpeakerYou're choosing to go a route that's not on a banned list, but if they caught you with it, they'd instantly ban it. So that LA Times situation, that brings it out. What that does, it brings more awareness. You have to have awareness in all facets. Is the product clean? And how do we judge decent products? And now that information gets put out to the public so the customers have some fucking clue what to do.

2:51:29SpeakerBecause the dispensaries can't provide you with the information you need. Most people who buy weed, even though they might buy weed their whole lives, they're not used to buying weed from a selection. If you bought weed your whole life from your neighbor, you know that you get a cookie or a brownie or a granola bar that they make, or you get this type of flour, that type of flour.

2:51:52SpeakerBut when you have 300, 400, 500, 700 choices in front of you, it gets overwhelming. And I just think that the mainstream buyer, it's not who is already knowledgeable. That's where we fuck up this picture in terms of cannabis is that we're constantly saying this isn't this, but it's about who's coming into cannabis. Because to us, the industry's old. We've spent our whole life in it, but it's brand new for so many.

2:52:21SpeakerAnd it's for the first time anybody's ever had access at this level so simply. And it's trying to be able to create the ability for people to see a product correctly. And it's also for the ability to understand the timeline of events on how you got here so that when you look at these products, you can understand the medical pioneers that risked their lives to give it to you and all the people that were black, Asian, and brown who got fucked.

2:52:50SpeakerSo they could remove this from you. And that's really the Gangier. The Gangier has got a really good historical background, educational component so that you really do get an idea of where you are in history right now. And then how do we possibly look at something objectively?

2:53:08BubblemanSo here's a question for you. The word ganja, your son said, because you always call it ganja, dad. I'm wondering where that influence came with. And of course, I just I would think it must just must be connected somehow to Jamaica.

2:53:24SpeakerWell, it was I the way I remember it was that ganja was the first time cannabis was discovered. The word ganja is out of Sanskrit. And so the first time the word ganja is ever discovered in history is on a fucking rock, on a rock tablet. And so to me, I was like, whoa, ganja is this, you know, original phrase. And then of course we know it from Jamaica, but for some reason I got turned on to that little tidbit early.

2:53:51Speakerand it just kind of stuck with me and then my son must have you know heard it come out of my mouth enough to to make it that piece but that was the whole thing was that i i used the the gangier as this killer online platform for education and it allowed me to be able to it was just because the name was cool and i enjoyed it and then we took it made a media company out of it but when i was able to partner with green flower What it did was it allowed us to create that council of 18 people so that we could, and it was funny too, because we all first got together, we're basically yelling at each other because we're all fighting over what we think is right.

2:54:28SpeakerAnd we started to laugh and we realized that we needed to put down all our preconceptions and really allow what was right to emerge in that way. And it was heavy because like, you know, I got to work with Frenchie on it, but it was his birthday the other day and we were hanging out up at the campus and It was really nice to be able to spend those years with Frenchie working on that project and him bringing an incredible perspective of how do you weave the protection of the region into the recognition of the product, which is what like you and BC have the same situation where you have these historical regions of production And they do have an impact and they do have a validity.

2:55:16SpeakerHow do you make that work so that the people who are in those regions who have done this work get to derive benefit? And part of that benefit is keeping that land in these continuous ownership tracks so it becomes generational. And that was Frenchy's piece. And I think that his impact like in Northern California was so profound because it really, drove the awareness of the Appalachian issue and how to create that valuation.

2:55:44SpeakerAnd because I got to spend so much time in that 2012 time period with them, it allowed me when I got to speak to the Senate in 2017, 2016, about Appalachian creation here. And so it

2:56:02SpeakerThe individuals that come together to create a thing, I don't think sometimes we understand how much impact they have on other people. So it's profound. That's why I always say people, the people that have good online platforms that have a lot of conversation and a lot of diverse people that come through. And they're incredible because the agenda is discussion and it allows people some great benefit. I have another question for you.

2:56:29SpeakerThat is, Okay, everybody knows that some terpenes have the ability to modulate or even potentiate THC. And I think Ethan might have come up with the entourage factor. My question is, do you think that thiols have the ability to modulate THC? And potentiate THC or do you think they just are strong aroma molecules? You know, I'm not a chemist, so I don't know about the potentiation of the THC, but I know that When we change, I was looking at a hop study someone was involved in, and when they changed one of, I want to say it was a thiol or it was a volatile sulfur, maybe an ester, but when they changed one of those molecules by a PPB, so they had two identical hops samples.

2:57:29SpeakerAnd it was in breeding project. And they were showing what happens in terms of impact on a miner. And they had only one part per billion difference between them in one specific molecule. And it made sample A undistinguishable from sample B. So when we're talking about to me in terms of interpretation, that's the part that you don't really, even when I look at like essays from Israel, Where I have friends that do genetic development in Israel and they use Deedee Mary's lab to do all the work.

2:58:03SpeakerSo the essays are incredible. So when I look at them, I'm not qualified to tell you anything on it. I just look at it to see the totality so I can understand how much more we're really being able to see in terms of this collection. And what I know is that we can only kind of make I would say assumptions are empirical from the observation of like I consumed it and I noticed the difference.

2:58:25SpeakerBut I know that when we're using these type of aroma profiles to steer direction, we can definitely anticipate the potentiality for possible direction. So I can't tell you if I'm going to have a greater THC effect, but I can say that the volatile components steer how people perceive the high to be. And if the cannabinoids follow suit, which they would in native populations, you can kind of predict an outcome.

2:59:01SpeakerWell, with terpenes, it was relatively straightforward to test pure THC. By itself, then by vaporization, 25 milligrams, and then do the same thing with it spiked with a single terpene. And if you were to do that double blind, so you don't know what you're doing, either the person is giving it to you or the person is getting it. You could really easily perceive that some terpenes do have the ability to modulate and a few even potentiate THC.

2:59:47SpeakerI'm really curious about the phials, if they can do the same thing or not, because phials are the next, well, after terpenes hit the cannabis community in the early 2000s, Now, thiols and a few other compound volatiles are quickly... My focus has always been recreational, and I want to know what's it going to do to it. Totally. The problem with testing this, though, is because they're so volatile, you don't see it captured, right?

3:00:28SpeakerSo much of, so much of the, and it's the cost. So for farmers, like we're already getting soaked on a COA and you don't get an essay big enough to give you the information. And I almost want to say the honest truth is the more you give this scientific information to the consumer as pure science, The more you confuse them, because what the consumer to me wants is satisfaction.

3:00:55SpeakerThey're coming in with a reason. They want to leave satisfied. And so it's very simple to me to deal with people because I know that it's the outcome that they're there for. And so when they start to get this information, it's same thing now. They're like, oh, I steer by terpenes. And I'm like, that doesn't really help you though. The problem is that every test that has been done has been in isolation.

3:01:18SpeakerIt's been a single molecule compared to a molecule and they add another molecule. We have maybe 5,000 molecules in this package. So like, how does that correlate? It's the same, it's like with aromatherapy. Aromatherapy is nice, but you're not smoking that shit. And for people that say, you know, it's only the terps that I like, I'm like, have you ever vaporized them? Because I mean, holy shit, that stuff is caustic.

3:01:41SpeakerSo I think that the complexity of the product in terms of the individual Thank you so much for joining us.

3:02:11SpeakerOh yeah, well. All that shit. Like when we're doing a real assessment, every little detail's got to get covered so that I'm able to give you the assessment and then you can go follow the same protocol and find out, hey, where's our differences? I did that with 15 subjects.

3:02:28Ryan Dank AfI've noticed the same thing we're doing, the terms we're doing. I've noticed the same thing when doing the terps with Sam over in Amsterdam. If you put too much on the extract, it blows out the flavor and your lungs in a totally different way.

3:02:43SpeakerThat's why we spiked it with this really tiny, tiny, tiny amount.

3:02:49Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, and you can't, like those, like you said, those, those, those files are so damn volatile that I don't think that you can actually get the right amount. I think that you're never going to be testing within levels that are equivalent to the physiology of the plant. And, you know, like I just typed in our chat.

3:03:07SpeakerThat might be possible because I was sent some files by Abstract and I haven't tried it yet because I've been trying to figure out how to do this.

3:03:17Ryan Dank AfWell, and how do you open the vial without... You're going to do it in cryo.

3:03:24SpeakerMy wife won't let me do it inside the house. She's not wrong.

3:03:28Ryan Dank AfBut, you know, like, you know, I really don't think that these molecules modulate THC itself. I think they modulate the experience. And it's like anything gustatory. Like, you're in a restaurant and you've got... You know, herbs in a specific dish that are adding something to the flavor. They're not doing anything neurochemically. They're, they're just, they're, they're changing your perception of the experience.

3:03:56SpeakerRight.

3:03:57Ryan Dank AfAnd I think that that's kind of.

3:03:59SpeakerThe terpenes do though.

3:04:02Ryan Dank AfYou know, and that's why like limonene, like.

3:04:06SpeakerGo ahead. Now, I was just saying, the terpenes do modulate the experience, absolutely, and some of them potentiate it. They make the THC stronger because when you do this in every subject degree, because we did a 100 question organoleptic survey before and after, and there's no doubt that the terpenes can do it, but I'm still, but Everybody's talking about thiols and my big question is...

3:04:58Ryan Dank AfRight. So that has nothing to do with THC. It's just a separate channel that's being activated at the same time as you're taking the THC.

3:05:08BubblemanAsk Johnny about when I visited him in the, well, geez, it was like the department where everyone has broken necks and broken backs. He had just had some crazy spinal operation or vertebrae is taken out of his neck or something. He would obviously know better than me. But when I put that purple punch terpene profile, I wouldn't call it terpenes because more than likely it's a volatile organic compound profile.

3:05:31BubblemanBut we put that under his nose. I had 18 different flavor profiles derived from cannabis. And that one had him like hopping right out of bed.

3:05:41Johnny BRemember that, Johnny B.? Well, it was a game changer for me because that's when Save the Terps came into play, right? I said right there, Save the Terps. It became a major campaign over years with Boveda. That was a huge awakening for me, understanding that it was the terpenes were modulating the THC. That took my pain away. It's 3D imaging. It overrides the brain functions. I learned about this and I was able to...

3:06:03Ryan Dank AfBut again, they're not modulating the THC. They're modulating the pain at the same time as your experience.

3:06:08Johnny BThis was my belief. So thank you for saying that, Ryan. I appreciate that. I was like, what's going on here? All of a sudden my brain's going off like this. And I remember pulling it back towards me. It was like, give me that. And then you were here, Ryan, when I was smelling certain teas. I'm like, you're like, okay, this is what it's attached to. This is what helps me with my pain.

3:06:29Johnny BIt was those terpenes. It was such a big part of being able to me identify. That's why it's a big thing with me is both saving terps. It's about giving some kind of a standard of holding that cannabis at a freshness stage so we get the same terpene profile for patients. It's a big thing for me. And that was a huge eye-opener for me of working with Dr. Hornby for over a decade of trying to standardize medical cannabis for patients.

3:06:52Johnny BWe did it with, tried to do it with nutrients, tried to do it with lighting, tried to do it with decarboxylating, and I was like, it was the Terps for me. All of a sudden, I was like, it's the Terps. This is what was helping me, right?

3:07:03SpeakerThat's what I... And do the Terps give as much effect without THC, or synergistically, are they better together?

3:07:14Johnny BBetter together. Everything's better together. Okay. Definitely better together. And that's when I was looking at even with the book and talking about certain things with different terpenes and Ryan mentions that and stuff. That was the biggest eye-opener for me. That was the game changer. And that was in 2015. They took out my C4, C5 because someone rendered me while busy texting on their damn phone. So get off your phone, stop texting, you're driving.

3:07:41Johnny BYou see that sticker probably all over the world. It was really understanding that those terpenes was everything for me. That's where it became just so profound. It was saving those terps. Patients need that profile. They need to be able to identify what's going to work for them.

3:07:58SpeakerI absolutely agree with you, Johnny, because what we did first was we smoked pure THC, 25 milligrams, vaporized in a A volcano. And it had, you know, effects you would expect from THC. But then I smoked 25 milligrams. I vaporized again in a volcano of dry sift skunk number one that was only 70% THC. And let me tell you, the terpene rich one was twice as strong subjectively as the The pure THC.

3:08:42SpeakerSo it's obvious that they're a significant part of the picture.

3:08:47Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, I like what Rob always says too. If it was just, if cannabis was just THC, he wouldn't be a consumer. Right. It's it's the sum of it's the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I really believe that.

3:09:00BubblemanIt's always the smell that gets you excited.

3:09:02SpeakerYou know, it does. But people smell a change in. Right. Yeah. So for me, I don't on purpose, though. Right. Like, I don't. I don't use scented laundry soap. I don't use scented soap. I don't have any kind of aroma shit around me. So it's natural aroma. And it just allows me to develop my olfactory skills better. So when I'm doing assessment and I'm able to pick, it's kind of like sommelier shit and perfume.

3:09:35SpeakerSo I looked at sommelier and perfume and how they work and develop. And a lot of it is having this clarity of olfactory ability. And I don't think people have developed theirs adequately because we've been living in a world of perfume for so long. So most individuals are really, in order for an aroma to really hit them in a nuance, it has to penetrate that filter that they've put in from too much Febreze at the house, too much Tide soap.

3:10:04SpeakerAnd I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it is a kind of bad thing. It's an endocrine blocker, but it definitely messes up your olfactory ability. And so we don't have the same level of scent capability as like our ancestors, right? So when I do look at scent and I look at animals, I look at bears and dogs for how do they pick up aroma? How do they contain it in their mind and then sift out what it is?

3:10:34SpeakerWhat's the skill set? And I think that human beings at one point in time had a far greater ability to differentiate odor. And we used our noses so much more intimately for survival. And as we've been spoon-fed safety, we've lost that ability. And cannabis is something that I think speaks to us in a primal way. So when people smell it, it starts to begin this recognition that you're sensing through your nose things that are inherently good for your needs.

3:11:09Ryan Dank AfYeah. Well, we were talking about that last week with this terpene language, right? Mm-hmm. This language that's spoken between fungi and bacteria, like these, all these organizms produce terps, right? They do, they do. Like these three biological level interactions where the tree, you know, there's a beetle that attacks the pine tree and the pine tree upregulates a terpene and that terpene is an attractant to a wasp that is parasitic to the beetle, right?

3:11:38Ryan Dank AfSo you have these like multi layers of biology all interacting together through these terps. And I kind of look at it like, you know, it's like, it's like the difference of, of being in a city and looking up at the sky and not being able to see the stars versus going out in the country and looking up in the sky, right? Like you're overwhelmed with the light and that light kind of desensitizes you to the, this natural light that's coming from the stars.

3:12:03Ryan Dank AfRight. And it's kind of the same thing with, with scent. Like if you're always. If your system is always being bombarded with all these, this scent, you're not as sensitive to the natural language that's going on beneath it, right? And, you know, corporations use this stuff like intentionally, like we've talked about this before, but, you know, there's a reason that all these companies put like lemon cleaner or lemon scented cleaner, right?

3:12:28Ryan Dank AfLike that lemon, that limonene molecule actually improves your mood without THC. So it's like, that's part of the, The corporation fooling you that your cleaner is really working in your house.

3:12:41SpeakerOh, it's like foaming toothpaste. Toothpaste doesn't have to foam. It's a foaming agent because they discovered the more foam that came up. And then I was reading the review on it and they said that they went to such a level that the shit was spewing out of your mouth when you were brushing. And they had to throttle back on the toothpaste formula.

3:13:00Ryan Dank AfYeah, they're fooling us with these chemicals, right? To make us believe something more about their product.

3:13:08BubblemanWell, I can definitely see that they are fooling us. There's no doubt about it. I also see that on the flip side, the people who, you know, because Kev's right in the sense that a large portion of people have a muted olfactory sense. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:13:46BubblemanWhich was each time she got pregnant and her sense of smell went through the roof and she'd be like, oh my God, is this how you're living? And I'd be like, yes, exactly. There's way more bad smells in the world than there are good. So when you create a heightened sense of smell and olfactory, it's not necessarily all like butterflies and rainbows. There's like a bunch of bad shit out there that you smell In a deeper way, the same way you, you can smell these compounds in a deeper way.

3:14:15BubblemanSo yeah, it's interesting. I think, uh, I think a lot of the people in the hash world in particular, people like nicotine, people like Matt rise, people like myself, people like obviously skunk man, Sam, people that just have this incredible olfactory, they know what they're looking for. So they're more likely to find it. And that regardless if they're Sam and they. Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:15:04BubblemanSay whatever you want about him, man. That guy was the homie and every cultivar I ever grabbed from him and ran through bags turned to water. It was just full melt hash. So got to give my shout out to the TGA weed nerds.

3:15:19Etienne FontanHas anybody here lost their sense of smell? I actually lost my sense of smell for a decade. Oh my God, that's terrifying, dude. Don't even talk about that. No. How could you? No, it happened to me during the Gulf War. And one day I was sitting, a decade later, I'm sitting at home with my roommate, Nate. And guess what's the first thing that I smelled? When it turned back on.

3:15:47Etienne FontanChuck. Weed? Johnny's like, weed. No, it was a dog fart. A dog fart? I was going to say a fart. Well, you said, you know, all smells are not beautiful. I have to concur because, yeah, I... The overwhelming smells of death that I smelled during combat shut down my smell. And it affected my taste, everything. And then randomly one day in 99, it just popped back on just randomly.

3:16:24SpeakerI want to mention that when I had COVID-19 in 2020,

3:16:31SpeakerI lost my sense of smell completely for a month or two. And I was really, really worried. I said, how am I going to be able to smell weed again? And yeah, but it's normal again, which is, yeah, some people say I have a super nose. Which I guess is useful in the perfume industry. I was just going to say that, Sam. It's the perfume is what I studied because I was just curious.

3:17:01SpeakerLike when you talk about olfactory ability, where is it really measured? And it was it was in people that smell food, but it was in perfume because a perfume, the commonality among the best perfume developers, people that could pick up like 70 layers. They could identify 70 different components in something, was that they all were raised in the country. They all had... And we're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

3:17:30SpeakerWe're going to talk about what we're going to talk about today.

3:17:49SpeakerSo releasing different molecular waves as they off gas through the day and collected at night. So the amount of overall information these people received from where they were raised gave them a memory that lets them identify and recreate that.

3:18:06BubblemanWell, that and the fact that they weren't exposed to toxic fucking perfumes their entire lives, so they had a fucking sensitive enough olfactory that they could smell and decipher what was in toxic perfumes.

3:18:20SpeakerThe flavor and aroma company I was working with, it was a French company called Javertin Rouge, and they came to my... My lab and tested skunk marijuana and skunk hashish because they wanted to make a perfume. And I told them I had almost 100 terpenes that I was using for my FID GC analysis. And they told me they had, I think it was 12,000 or something like that.

3:19:01SpeakerTerpenes in their collection, standard.

3:19:05BubblemanWow. Damn, they flexed on you, Sam.

3:19:11BubblemanI think it's...

3:19:13SpeakerThey did analyze my skunk ass, and they identified, I think it was 60 or 70 or 80 different peaks, which I found interesting.

3:19:27BubblemanGo ahead, Brian. Best Friend Farms in the house. Welcome, homie.

3:19:31Bryan Best Friend FarmsHey there. Right in line with what Sam was just like talking about where there's the seeking out of the skunk profile and where he's, you know, finding so many is really interesting. But I just also interesting seems the pull to say like foul, raunchy or disgusting really terps that come in, you know, to cannabis or hash that actually have a pleasant, like a pleasant pull for people.

3:19:58Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd I'm sure there are other places where, you know, the raunchy terms take over and actually pull people in and attract them.

3:20:14SpeakerA friend of mine in the Bay Area got a variety from Afghanistan, and he named it KGB, like the, uh, the, uh, The Russian secret police. And two things that was interesting about that variety. Number one was it smelled like rotten meat. I mean, really foul. The second thing that was interesting was if you got any resin on your fingers or your hands, your hands would break out with the rash temporarily.

3:20:53SpeakerIf you got it anywhere near your eyes, You would lose your vision and your eyes would get all puffy for like half an hour, an hour. But what was really funny was when you dried the weed a couple of weeks and outgassed it, then You could manicure it with no trouble with your hands or your face. So it was, I don't know if it was a terpene or a phial because I didn't have the equipment back in those days because this was in the 70s.

3:21:27SpeakerBut...

3:21:33Bryan Best Friend FarmsDid that smell change, Sam, once it cured? Did it go still to rotten meat or was it a different smell?

3:21:40SpeakerNo, it didn't. It smelled vaguely like rotten meat, but nothing like before. And, yeah, it just tasted more like some sort of an Afghan skunky type. But, yeah, I mean, it would gag me if I smelled it. And if I got it too close to my... Face or my, my hands. It literally made my hands break out with a rash. Holy shit.

3:22:13Bryan Best Friend FarmsIt's a durian of weed. Yeah. Oh, that one's raunchy.

3:22:17BubblemanYou don't like baby diaper vomit smell? Raw eggs. Dude, I want to show your Piatella again because we were doing that and I want you to explain what it is while I'm showing it because, yeah, Brian's just been having all sorts of fun with like curing out full melt bubble. This is like a six star bubble hash that he's cutting up with his knife right now. Tell us about this thing, dude.

3:22:43Bryan Best Friend FarmsSo, so good. What do you want to hear about it? Just like what it is?

3:22:48BubblemanYeah, just how you went about doing it, what it smells like. I want to know what it smells like. There's my piece you're cutting. Look at that. Twice as bad as all the others.

3:22:56Bryan Best Friend FarmsThat's a really nice looking hash. Thank you. So this one here is actually like really savory sharp, I would put it. There's no sweet to it. So the gas mask that I work with for like five to six years and four or five generations, four solid, kind of like working within those. I brought back a BX2 male to the GMO clone. And this particular pheno like was what I was looking for in terms of Thank you for joining us.

3:23:43Bryan Best Friend FarmsLike the shine on the hash there and everything. So it's got a, and the wiggle. So it's got like a creamy textural, I guess, good addition to it from that side, the male side. And yeah, so the hash itself is what I guess people were calling Piatella these days, but this is just a cured melt and like a two month cure job. And yeah, kind of, I guess it does pertain to like our talk with genetics quite a lot because I'm kind of like tracking on my own small scale for a lot of like pleasure and enjoyment of the hash and of the flower, but I'm also You know, like seeing different genetic variations or different genetic line.

3:24:30Bryan Best Friend FarmsThis gas mask of mine I've been using or working for like five to six years just has a lot of the like really texture, taste, smell, checks boxes for me. So I've been working that as like a stable and staple line for other things that I'm making, basically adding it to. This is another phenol you're showing there of the X1.

3:24:54BubblemanDude, what about your little trick? Like, how do you how do you get this shit to cure out? Everyone wants to know. Like, for me, I'm glad you said Piatella or it's just cured bubble hash, right? It's a six star. Really, why Piatella is so super special is because the main ingredient is six star bubble hash. So just six star bubble hash alone. But yeah, this stuff just looks soaked.

3:25:16BubblemanLike the turds just...

3:25:18Bryan Best Friend FarmsOh, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's definitely wet. That would pertain like to the cultivar. A lot of it. I really just it's not in the processing that brings that grease out. It's definitely in terms of the genetic, at least for me. And then, you know, the grease pops out of it. I guess basically if it's there genetically, but then there's also the process to it, which I guess to throw some pieces out with the Piatella thing is I don't put the plastic onto the hash until I actually form the hash by hand.

3:25:53Bryan Best Friend FarmsSo that's at the very end that I touch it by hand and I make my slabs. But, you know, happy to share other pieces out there too. This is what I would call a pre-whip. So my first whip, I do a couple move, two movements of the hash stirring or moving. And this one is like right out of the freeze dryer into the bucket. And then I just start moving it around, get a little warm, room temp or a little above.

3:26:21Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd if they're greasy cultivars, they really only take a few minutes to go right, to melt right down to grease. And from that point there, I would go, you know, a cold cure or even honestly up to like a room temp hold with the lid on and dark and dry or, you know, make sure it stays dark dry. And basically after that forms up to a hardened texture again, goes to cure, what's called cure, I would then work it again, like make it soft again.

3:26:56Bryan Best Friend FarmsSo maybe some of those pieces help. I don't add the plastic till the very end when I have like the hash looking like what I want it to.

3:27:04BubblemanDude, that shit was hypnotic, dude, when you were whipping the bubble. So whipping the bubble is really quite a good tip in regards to speeding up the Piatella process.

3:27:18Bryan Best Friend FarmsYeah, it's like soft hash. I guess like even though all I'm watching my own little videos, I'm making little geeky videos. It's definitely the best. That I believe is a coastal collision. That's a sour D by SFE and from Melting Pot Friend. But basically, yeah, like it's soft hash. So you want to not every cultivar will go into being soft at the end. And like the GASMO you first showed, why I was stoked on it was because the gas mask added the creamy, greasy texture to it where it's more of a stiff or grainy resin is what I call it.

3:27:54Bryan Best Friend FarmsIt's, you know, dumps hash and it's really sharp fowl, but it's really stiff. It makes good, you know, cured melt pietella form, but not that soft. Really wet looking, greasy cut stuff. So.

3:28:08BubblemanRight. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, Piatella for me, you know, obviously when it first kind of came out and people were doing it, I was more of the understanding that the Spanish people were really liking because it was giving them a texture that they could take full melt bubble and just break it into spliffs quite easily, a little harder than, you know, trying to do snakes and whatnot.

3:28:29BubblemanAnd that's really what popularized it. But what the value I see of it is, is when you get hash like that, and I'm sure when you pre-piatella that and you've got your bubble hash, it's probably caramelly and fairly hard and pure. And once you whip it and soften it up and then you let it sit in the loaf and you wrap it up and those turps try to exhaust and volatize out of the hash, they foam it up a little bit.

3:28:54BubblemanThey create a very stable texture. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:29:25Bryan Best Friend FarmsYou know, hand formation or whatnot, basically pressure and movement. I don't want to add any heat to be meant, you know, done in the cold. I myself like the Piatella form or the cured melt that I originally called bubble cream. I like that cured melt form either way, whatever it's called, because it's a stable, like a table stable form. And it doesn't take extra protocol just to keep the hash fresh or at a certain point of isolation.

3:29:55Bryan Best Friend FarmsSo it's got this truth factor to it that is like, you know, It's from Fresh Rosen, but it's given the time to get there where it's actually cured and able to handle it. If you want to keep it long term, you could fridge or freeze it, but it's really good on, you know, room temp, table stable stuff. Easy for like anyone to enjoy it that way. And then further, I actually find that at least for my hash, I'm seeing a lower temp melt that in the banger.

3:30:22Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd like, it basically goes in really easy and melts very even and thorough, more like a rosin than I would see like a fresh granular melt, you know, or even like, yeah, so. For the dabbing side of it. So I actually really enjoy the dabbing and it brings out the smell. The terpenes just pop on it once you go to cure and then beat it up again.

3:30:45Bryan Best Friend FarmsSo I think one of the most important things for me with making this is I do a twice whip or like a twice, you know, moving it right up front, make it soft, let it stiffen up and then go back in and make it soft again once it's stiffened up.

3:30:59BubblemanI'm telling you, at the next Legends of Hash I do, I want a giant projector and I want it to just be on the loop. That whipping of that hash, dude, because that was completely hypnotic.

3:31:10Bryan Best Friend FarmsI don't know if anyone else was feeling that or if that was just my weird... I think I like that myself, not just fun, but because once again, it goes back to the cultivar where some do and some don't. And, you know, we're like not saying scratch all of them that don't. But if you're after really greasy hash or that type of a hash form, then basically probably try to eliminate the grainier hash types, even if they do make hash or dump hash.

3:31:39Bryan Best Friend FarmsYou know, and I would say eliminate, get rid of, but you either probably got to breed it forward or, or, you know what I mean? Go to something else. For me, it's that my gas mask line, which is the kosher kush on a original Mac one's brother onto headband clone. So both the kosher and the headband were old clones, you know, handed and I had to have like something in between it to bring them together.

3:32:03Bryan Best Friend FarmsBasically, and I get like super grease component like these, all these types relate actually back to that original diesel headband, different names for it to that type of texture quality. And then the kosher is just this cut here is one of my favorites.

3:32:21BubblemanThese are fatty heads, huh? You don't even have 90 or 73 in there?

3:32:25Bryan Best Friend FarmsI actually do a lot of 90, but I like that these are showing because for the last year or so on the indoor organic, and I'm like the 13th, 14th cycle on the living soil with this batch, I'm seeing, I don't know if they're like cultivar oriented or just ripeness oriented, but I saw it kick up over the last year for me for like really good return, but also super high quality on the 120.

3:32:53Bryan Best Friend FarmsYeah, so playing with both of those, I'd say always more 90. Yeah, yeah.

3:33:00BubblemanSeems like trichome production is ever-changing. There definitely was a point where people weren't collecting like 180 and 190 micron heads that were melting and boiling when being lit up.

3:33:14SpeakerYeah.

3:33:16BubblemanVery nice. That is absolutely beautiful. That is kind of like the end result right there in a nutshell. Everything we've been talking about from flavor profiles and breeding and growing and relationships and storytelling. It's like that shit right there. Oh, enough said. Mic drop.

3:33:37Bryan Best Friend FarmsTruth hash.

3:33:38BubblemanI'm almost certain everyone on this panel right now wants that hash. Can we get a raise of hands on everyone that wants that hash?

3:33:47Bryan Best Friend FarmsYou guys are too kind. I would happily share, at least digitally try to share some here. I think I got a little slab I can share up on there. You know, some more gas. Let's see what we got here.

3:34:03Johnny BThank you. Appreciate that. I'll just grab a little bit.

3:34:05Ryan Dank AfDash that good, Brian. And you saying really making my day.

3:34:10Bryan Best Friend FarmsAh, you guys make my day every time.

3:34:13Johnny BYou get to do a nice fresh dab now.

3:34:16Bryan Best Friend FarmsDo an extra, a triple.

3:34:18Johnny BYeah, that was, that was a beautiful grab. That's, that's going to happen when it was like reach in and grab and go. Thank you. Virtual grab. Virtual grab. I was like, I got to jump in on that right now.

3:34:28Bryan Best Friend FarmsVirtual grab on dab. Yeah. Nice. Well, I love hash, so thanks for sharing and thanks for, you know, having me here to share the hash and learn so much from everybody that comes on here, you know.

3:34:43BubblemanWell, thanks for doing it, man. Holy, right? It's the people that are doing it.

3:34:48MarkLook, here's another one.

3:34:50BubblemanI've seen in ages. Fucking hell, dude. This is a totally different one now. Again, this is the Sour Banana Sherbert.

3:34:58Bryan Best Friend FarmsMelt Waves. I think the AJ Sauer really brought that out, that grease component to the original diesel or the diesel family. I love the diesel original E-C-S-D and OG Kush, True OG Cut. I worked with Outwest for the better part of 10 years. It was like one of my favorites, produced it over and over. So I'm definitely a gas lover. I like that family, that profile.

3:35:26BubblemanProper viscosity for preferred cured texture.

3:35:33Bryan Best Friend FarmsOh yeah. Kind of like a texture geek too.

3:35:36BubblemanI just want the world to have access to this. That's all. The whole world doesn't have to smoke this. I totally understand. Some people love to get pre-rolled joints and I want you guys to get the best version of that that's possible. And people that want, you know, even the distillate and botanical terps, okay, you guys, you know, I'm not going to fight you. Do that over there if you need to.

3:35:55BubblemanPeople that want to get organic cannabis and Thank you for joining us today.

3:36:17BubblemanThank you for joining us.

3:36:33BubblemanJolly Roger had sent me a couple pivots from the Puffco, which this thing is fucking amazing, man. I can't say enough about it. So I gave my older buddy one and he's like, oh, I have nothing to smoke out of it. I just have traditional hash. And I said, well, dude, there's a store right across the street. And we walked into it and we were able to buy a gram of my friend Caitlin, who has been on hash church many times.

3:36:55BubblemanFrom High Fidelity. And it was a gram of her, I think it was Rainbow Driver. And man, like to be able to just walk into a store and buy a product like that. Now it was, it's far and few between. Not every product in the store is like that. I happen to know High Fidelity. I know who their growers are at Woody Nelson. I know their story.

3:37:16BubblemanAnd I know the people from 20 plus years. A lot of them come from the gray market. So it was just, I felt very, You know, I mean, listen, I'm always going to be able to find resin, even when it was highly illegal. I had beautiful bubble hash in my possession, but... It's for everyone else who doesn't have those connections that can now just walk into a store, and maybe it's not the best price, and maybe they're still not the greatest selection, but like I said last week to Etienne, we do have to celebrate our wins when we get them.

3:37:48BubblemanThat is still a celebration, a win.

3:37:50Etienne FontanDid anybody else get cat in mouth just watching that stirring going on?

3:37:56BubblemanIt's even worse for me. I'm not even going to tell you what happened to me, but it's inappropriate. Uh-oh.

3:38:05Etienne FontanI'll be fine.

3:38:09BubblemanI'll be fine. I got 15 minutes left here in the show. So anything you guys want to. Get on that we missed or anything that you guys want to talk about before we finish off. Truly a wonderful conversation. I enjoyed it.

3:38:23Etienne FontanThe legal update. My Veterans Action Council that is fighting to get into the DEA are... Our appeal has been received, so we're in the midst of securing legal counsel, and it's a specialized law, appellate law. And so we're hoping to get a submittal here soon. And then we have until we were given until the 10th of January. And of course, the DEA hearings start on the 13th.

3:39:00Etienne FontanSo it may or may not have an effect. Don't know. But we're trying to be number 26 again to get

3:39:09Etienne FontanDiscuss schedule five as well as de-scheduling outright. So we're just doing our best to keep the discussion in the fight and in the media's eyes. Currently we have 23 articles that have been out. From the Washington Post and around, just discussing this and making us swear because, you know, nobody else is discussing Schedule 5 or as we're talking outright, de-scheduling. So Wade and I, via Veterans Action Council, are doing our best to fight the good fight and hopefully next church, next hash church, we'll have even better news and the ability to, yeah, change the world.

3:39:52BubblemanSo what kind of leverage, ATN, do you think it gives you with the DEA and the whole Valor thing that you guys are veterans?

3:40:03Etienne FontanWell, one, they taught us to fight, so we don't know how to stop fighting, for one. So we're going to continue to do that. Uh two we believe that you know if they can have somebody come in and argue the point that it should stay in schedule one then we should come out and be able to argue schedule five which of course the judge kind of mocked us about but we uh challenged via his challenge actually the administrative law judge for the DEA gave us these uh crumb trails for appeal He not only told us there was a possibility of appeal, he went and found the case specifically for us to file under.

3:40:48Etienne FontanSo it's not necessarily championing, but he was very helpful. But because we are an organization or a group, even though we're volunteers, we have to have a lawyer now. But if you were an individual, You could file for non, you know, because we are all volunteers. We have no payment. We have no hierarchy in the Veterans Action Council. We're a working group. We're very unique that way.

3:41:14Etienne FontanSo we were looking at, you know, signing regarding financial hardships, but because the court made us aware you are a group, you cannot do that via another case law. So... Right now, Michael Kralitz is trying to secure counsel for us. Do I feel that veterans have a better voice or not? Well, we represent a specific culture and the United Nations and others recognizes culture. Even though cannabis is its own culture, veterans are considered its own subsection of a subculture because it is its own culture.

3:41:54Etienne FontanSo we are using that as best as we can because we have friends all over. But I don't think our voice matters any more or less per se than anybody else who's testifying. But we are using our veteran status to do our best to clarify the message that Schedule three is not what we're settling for. We prefer if we have to be on scheduling, schedule five. And if we have to do anything, let's do de-scheduling outright because, I mean, at Berkeley Patient Group, I've been selling over the counter for 25 plus years now.

3:42:33Etienne FontanSo the wheels haven't come off. The world hasn't gone to pot. You know, the place hasn't, you know, fallen into disrepair. We did that on our own with our own representative democracy. It wasn't cannabis who did that. So we're just trying our best to use our voice to amplify others' voices. And because no one else is discussing de-scheduling or schedule five, we'll carry that battle flag And we'll fly it high as long as we can.

3:43:02Etienne FontanAnd if we're able to get in, then Michael will testify and explain why we as veterans are harmed specifically. We are just pointing out a specific on why we feel we are specifically a representative group that has standing, right? That's the only reason you can testify is they feel you have standing. Project SAM and a lot of the antithesis who are currently signed up, Aren't going to be harmed by Schedule 1.

3:43:31Etienne FontanThey just want to perpetuate the drug war. We don't want any more of that. So sorry to go out of my soapbox there, but we're going to do our best as we can to make everybody aware because once Schedule 3 happens, the discussion changes forever. And we want to have put the hat in the ring that we're past just a simple discussion.

3:43:54BubblemanWell, good on you, brother. You've been fighting the good fight for a very long time. Someone's got to do it. And like you said, someone withstanding. They're not going to listen to me. I'm just up in Canada or in the U.S.'s 51st state.

3:44:14Etienne FontanOh, that's hilarious. Hey, come here.

3:44:16BubblemanWith Governor Trudeau.

3:44:18Etienne FontanYou have to tell us your dog's name.

3:44:22Ryan Dank AfOh, he's not my dog. He's a friend's dog. I'm just kind of. The day caretaker when they go to work.

3:44:28BubblemanDid anyone get a little bit of a Monty Python vibe from that? That's not, he's not my dog. Oh, does your dog bite? Does your dog bite? No, monsieur. I thought you said your dog didn't bite. That is not my dog, monsieur.

3:44:44Johnny BPeter Sellers.

3:44:46BubblemanDude, Peter Sellers was the best. Yeah, it was the Pink Panther, exactly. For those youngins out there that don't know about the Pink Panther with Peter Sellers, you've got some enjoyment ahead of you. Eat some edibles, take some dabs, go watch that shit. It's so good. It's so classic. The guy that plays the police chief that he just drives into the mental ward every movie. It's so good.

3:45:13BubblemanIt's me. Makes me think of my old man. Used to watch Peter Sellers movies with him. Another good one is The Party, where he doesn't play Inspector Clouseau, but he plays this Indian gentleman, and it is also very good.

3:45:28Ryan Dank AfPeter Sellers is a classic. There's a story with him and... The drummer from Led Zeppelin, John Bonham in a restaurant just causing absolute mass hysteria. Trash in the place, throwing food everywhere. He was a genius comedian, Peter Sellers was. All of his stuff was fantastic.

3:45:50BubblemanYeah, it was definitely from a very specific time, but it was also very specifically timeless.

3:45:58Johnny BTwo Saturdays left before the end of 2024. I mean, Sunday's left. That's true. That's true, Johnny B. That's true. Look at how far and like really we celebrate how far we've come just in this one year. It's like, wow. I just looked behind me and was like, yeah, there's only two Sundays left, right? You got the...

3:46:18Etienne FontanWhat we see behind you is your book, and congratulations on making Amazon, what was it, bestseller list there? Congratulations, Johnny B. Look at you. Renowned author now.

3:46:29Johnny BYeah, it's, you know, it's, I wrote it down. I said I wanted to publish a book. I wanted to become a number one bestseller about the story, about what, how cannabis helped save my life, right? And it was a huge part of my recovery and the people, and yeah, And it came on that day. It was the same day with Destiny when I wrote it down. It was the senior leader for Tony and my book became a number one bestseller.

3:46:57Johnny BI can't believe it happened on that day and I did it four years later. So, you know what, it's important to get your information out there and do what you love and make sure you share it with the people who can benefit from it. And that's what we all do here. Everybody here is sharing their passion and knowledge, every one of you guys, you know.

3:47:15Ryan Dank AfIt's and I was out in BC recently. I went and stayed with Johnny for a few days and I was so impressed by what he's got going on and just the hustle and the AI things that he's doing and You know, the pushups and everything.

3:47:28Johnny BHe's really basically built this for us. So this would come out with a three, five, seven kind of program, big things. And then it's going to really help anybody in the industry guide them and use it as an intelligence to help. So I've had a lot of fun being able to work on this as Ryan knows. So I look forward to being able to.

3:47:49Ryan Dank AfYou know, we talked earlier about what AI can and can't do. It's important to remember this is just the beginning, right? It's kind of like, You know, think of like what Atari was when it was like, you know, whatever, 16 bit computing or whatever. Like we've really, this thing is just going to get better and better and better. Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:48:28Ryan Dank AfThe results, like some people come in, you know, I've handed the testing out, the beta out to a few people. And some people come in and they ask like silly questions like, who's the greatest cannabis breeder of all time? And then you get other people that are asking about doubled haploids and, you know, really advanced techniques. And like the quality of the response is directly proportional to the quality of the question.

3:48:51Ryan Dank AfSo if you use it for silly questions, you're going to get silly answers. But if you use it for really intelligent questions, you'd be blown away by what these things can do. And they're not replacing you in the captain's seat, but they're going to be a really helpful co-pilot. And I'm really impressed with how they are so far. And, you know, start getting to use one. We're going to build one for Sam.

3:49:15Ryan Dank AfWe're going to get a Sam clone. And yeah, these things are going to be some pretty cool tools for the community to use. I think people will be impressed.

3:49:24Johnny BThe most important part of your loop, and that's going to be the biggest part of what we have here, and being able to use human in the loop, comes down to engineering. It's a lot of fun and it can just show certain ways to personalize your GTP first so it actually starts guiding you along and have specific things for that and willing to give it to anybody because it really just gives you the context and the contrast of what it can do for you.

3:49:49Johnny BAnd then you can start basically when you open up a paid account, it becomes your guide. And over time, it gets used to everything that you put into it and And I treat it as rhinos. I named mine Q from my Star Trek, right? I was like, I got Q now because it made it fun. So I have dialogue with my GTP. And then I create other, like if you go to a doctor, if you got something wrong, they send you a specialist, especially if you're sending to a surgeon.

3:50:14Johnny BSo that's basically what I've been creating is specialists in different areas within the industry and taking my knowledge and building custom agents to serve.

3:50:26Johnny BLet's just say like one mark I did one for Resin Master. I also have one for LED lights and stuff like that. So you build them for that specific area that you want to have a topic on and then you get more information. When you go to a restaurant, you don't have the person sitting Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:51:10Johnny BLike, fuck me. Like, oh, wow. Like, anything you want to learn and what you're passionate about is going to help you tremendously.

3:51:18Ryan Dank AfAnd they're as good as you train them to be, right? So I'd love to see Brian, you know, Best Friend Farms, making one for the hash. Like, they're incredible. Like, they really are. You know, you take and you start feeding it with the information that you have. They learn and then they're just, you know, they're tools to just share and expand. It's really, they're incredible.

3:51:40Johnny BI'd get on them. I've made them so they're super intelligent. So it's learning at every second. So it's always evolving, right? So the more that you use it, the more evolved it gives you more context and contrast to what you're looking at. So yeah, it's amazing how these tools are actually now getting more and more smarter so they can benefit us so we can grow more faster.

3:52:04Johnny BWith the vision that we all have, remember that. We have the vision, human, and we have our super intelligence to help us get through government bullshit.

3:52:14Ryan Dank AfI gotta split, guys. I gotta take these kiddos to hockey, so... Thank you. Thanks, Johnny. Thanks for having me. It was great to see you, Kevin. Thank you. Thank you so much.

3:52:23BubblemanIt was great to see you guys. Thanks, everyone, for coming out. I appreciate all of you, Kev. Appreciate you. Dr. Mark, Wade, Best Friend Farms, Johnny B, Skunk Man Sam, Etienne Fontaine, Pauline, whose birthday it is today, as well as Mojave. Happy birthday to both of you guys. And may the full melt bless your bowl sooner than later, everyone that's watching. See you next week.