Cannabis Cultivation and Breeding Insights

0:19BubblemanAll right. Let's see what we got going on. Welcome, everybody. We're getting ready to go live here. Yes. Just waiting. Just waiting on the live here. Custom live streaming. Let's see what we got.

0:42BubblemanWell. I'm trying to figure this out here. Oh. Here we go. Here we go. Welcome everybody. Sunday morning at 9am and we're here for Hash Church 5.0 Episode 9. Thanks for being there. I made a bit of a mistake today and I...

1:04BubblemanThank you for watching.

1:34BubblemanEvery week. And I appreciate you guys for that because otherwise it would be me.

1:38SpeakerWe've been here for an hour waiting for you.

1:42BubblemanSounds about right, Sam. Sounds about right. Okay. Just let me organize. I like to rename Sam so he has the Skunk Man Sam name on there. Booyaka. There you go, Sam. You're welcome. You're welcome.

1:59Etienne FontanHope that's sorted out.

2:00BubblemanOoh, Etienne's got his fancy mic. I too. Was it? Have my fancy, Mike. Hi, Mike. How's the wife and kids? Mike's doing well. Mike's doing well. I mean, he doesn't like to talk about the wife and kids because they up and left him a couple weeks ago and bounced and just now he's kind of a lonely Mike. Just looking forward to these hash churches every Sunday. But that's neither here nor there.

2:25BubblemanNeither here nor there. I want to start it off with a big old fat rip this morning. I think... Got some beautiful resin here, some guava.

2:36Etienne FontanNice. What was that pressed at?

2:39BubblemanI'm not sure. My buddy pressed it, I would guess, probably around 180. It was in a greenhouse growing like two weeks ago.

2:49BubblemanWhat micron? This is 90 micron. I believe. It sure smokes like a 90 micron.

2:58Etienne FontanI believe in 90 micron.

3:05BubblemanBingo says it's his birthday on Tuesday, so we'll give him a happy birthday now for that, seeing as we won't see him again until next Sunday. And Bingo's been holding down chat as our sort of chat moderator for, oh my goodness, it's been a while since Bingo's been holding that down. So much appreciation to you for doing what you do in the chat room. Every once in a while we get someone that's a little anxious, a little hyper, a little ridiculous.

3:32Etienne FontanHey, I want to give a shout out. Horatio Delbert's birthday popped up this week. Yeah, dude, I saw that. And yeah, I gave some happy heavenlies and people responded because he was heavily part of and we lost him at such a young age. So it just reminded us to, you know, tell the ones you love, you love them, hug them, share with them, smoke with them. It's so true.

3:59Etienne FontanWe don't know how long we're here, so love and respect to Horatio.

4:05SpeakerWhenever I think of Lymeline, I think of Dover.

4:10BubblemanYeah, I mean, forever, really, Sam. I can't imagine not thinking of Horatio whenever I speak of Lymeline. It's ridiculous. I miss him, too. He was a good dude, you know, and kind of towards the end, He really, you know, when I first met him, he told me, he said, I come from the movie industry. You know, my, I have a very big ego. I have to put it in the box.

4:37BubblemanHe said, he kept saying, I have to put it in the box for this industry. I got to put it in the box. And I didn't really know what he meant by that. But when he really started going full bore into his, into his mission, He, I don't want to say it in a negative way, but he really alienated everyone. It was kind of like he needed everyone to, he didn't want to put himself in a box anymore.

4:56BubblemanHe wanted to let himself out and really, you know, figure out how deep he could go down this rabbit hole. And I just, I miss him as well. He was highly intelligent. He was a nice guy. He was a funny guy. And he was a serious guy. He had a real serious tone when it meant about like, I didn't talk to him probably for the last almost year of his life.

5:19BubblemanI know Johnny B didn't talk to him too much after that. He really just went inside to, you know, to do the work that he was doing. But yeah, I miss the days of going to his inner sanctum. Give a quick little, quick little video cap of Horatio and myself in his inner sanctum here showing the delimiting oil. You can see in the background on the table, he's got the citrus oils that he distilled out from the delimiting.

5:48BubblemanHe had never, uh, it was Mark Scaldone, Dr. Mark actually, who helped him with that. Um, Thank you for watching.

6:17BubblemanSo this orange material, it's called citrus oils and it's generally about 4 or 5% of what you're buying as D-limonene if you're buying it commercially. You're getting about 5% citrus oils and these oils were pretty nasty. And basically on this video, which was nine years ago called Horatio the Inner Sanctum, He's explaining how he discovered, you know, that whole process of distilling out the delimiting and cleaning out the citrus oils.

6:47BubblemanAnd once again, all thanks to Dr. Mark Sheldon, both that our community knew Horatio because it really was, well, it was Horatio that brought Dr. Mark onto Hash Church. And I suspect it was their conversations that led Horatio onto Hash Church, even in the beginning. So, RIP to fellow church alumni and a homie and just an all around good dude. We love you Horatio and wherever you may be, I hope you're doing extractions, brother.

7:20BubblemanI know you're doing extractions. What am I talking about? What else would you be doing?

7:29Collin PalmerWelcome, Colin. What's up, boys? I'm fighting a... Not a cold, more of an allergy, fall allergy thing. Bunch of tree pollen just dropping. Dropping. But I'm doing well. Filling up the nostrils? Yeah, it's just like nonstop sneezing. It's just I can't stop it. It's just nuts. It's exhausting.

7:52BubblemanIt's actually scary when you can't stop sneezing. And I will say this. I was in a hurricane in Guatemala in 98. It was Hurricane Mitch. And I remember we were like in Mexico and we were like, we're going to go to, um, oh, where the hell were we going to go to? It was all the way, Belize. We're going to go to Belize all the way up the coast.

8:14BubblemanAnd people are like, oh, you can't go to Belize. There's a hurricane that's about to like smash into Belize. And I was like, oh shit. Well, you know, maybe we'll just go check out the Jaguar temple and we'll drive into Guatemala instead. It's a little inland. It's a little safer. Well, Hurricane Mitch hopscotched over Belize, left it alone completely, and just hammered into Guatemala. And I was down in Panajachel near the mountains, Santa Cruz, the volcanoes, surrounded by them.

8:44BubblemanAnd basically, this hurricane slammed down. Thank you for watching.

9:09BubblemanYou know, we ended up renting a nice hotel, the nicest one we could kind of find. It was, you know, I remember it being like a couple hundred US a night. So it was a nice hotel. But even everything in this hotel had a damp, musky, moldy smell. And once it caught my nostril, I started sneezing and... Thank you so much for joining us.

9:53Collin PalmerAnd I still do to this day. And I would just get these crazy attacks that just exhausted, I'd just be like sweating. It was nuts. So it's just, I don't know, it's just been a journey with it. You'd think like by now, eating a bunch of honey, local honey, local pollen, and you know, you can kind of curb it, but there are times when it just gets out of control.

10:18Collin PalmerSo, but yeah, I'm good otherwise.

10:22BubblemanWell, good. Good to hear. Welcome, Wade. Can't see you, but I feel your energy. I know you're here. I hope you're doing better this week, as I hope for every week. It's nice to know you're in the room with us.

10:35WadeHang in there, Marcus. And yeah, I'm doing all right.

10:39BubblemanLove it. Love it. Well, I just got back from the Grow Up Conference in Edmonton, Alberta, and it was pretty fun. I got to chill out with Ed, actually. I haven't seen Ed Rosenthal. I see him all the time, but I've never actually... I shouldn't say I've never. I don't get to hang out with Ed very often. And he's also getting older. So I made a point on spending a little bit of time just chilling with him in his hotel room and going over one of his old books from India back in like the 70s.

11:10BubblemanHe went down, I think it was down in the south somewhere. And I guess in the south of India, they've got areas that have had like legal cannabis for a while now. And I missed that myself in the announcements. But Ed's going back with Jane. They're heading back there, I think, in about a month. And he's going to go back to the area that he photographed this initial book.

11:31BubblemanI should have it here because I could be showing pictures of it. My bad. But yeah, he gave me a copy and signed it and said, yeah, I'm going to go back to India and I'm going to see what's going on, how legal cannabis is able to be because it's certainly not up in. In, you know, Himachal Pradesh up in the north. This is all down like in the south and kind of the middle of the country.

11:52BubblemanBut apparently they have some form of legalization going on in India where you can acquire and buy cannabis. So I guess we'll hear more about that from Ed once he's done his trip. I had not heard hide nor hair about this personally. But it is what it is.

12:14Etienne FontanThat's rather a surprise, considering, you know, I mean, of all countries, we heard, you know, Philippines going that way now, and of course, Czech Republic, and, you know, we know Germany went that way, but India, that's rather fascinating, considering the size of the country that it is. That would be the largest country.

12:33SpeakerWhen I was in India in the 70s and 80s, ganja was legal up in West Bengal, and so was bong. And several more Indian states. But they stopped it, I think, in about 85 or 90. They stopped the government-licensed ganja shops in West Bengal.

12:58Collin PalmerYeah, I was going to say, I had a doctor in Brooklyn who was from India, and he actually told me that in a session I had with him. We were just talking, and He just started talking. He's like, you know, this was legal. A lot of the workers depend on this after a hard day's work and they need it for their bodies for recovery. And she explained to me how there used to be a path for that.

13:22Collin PalmerAnd, you know, he was surprised that coming from where he comes from, it's not more widely accepted. So it was really interesting.

13:35Etienne FontanYeah, hopefully more cultures where this is part of their culture can feel more emboldened to bring it back because, yeah, day workers, especially through Mexico, Central America, all used to state how they would make liniments. They would take cannabis, put it into their alcohol on the full moon, on the following full moon, and then rub it into their, you know, knees, joints, et cetera, you know, at the end of a long workday.

14:00Etienne FontanAnd as we see, working in those fields is nothing but hard work. And Anything that you can use to recover to get back to the day sunlight the next day. I mean, it's needed, especially if it's a natural remedy that cannabis is. It's just a shame we've stolen these cultural realities from people that they've had to rely on other substances that hopefully they can get back to what works for them.

14:27BubblemanYeah, absolutely. And shout out to all the Lebanese hash farmers who are really dealing with it right now. There are literally bombs going off next to their fields. I have an account that follows me and that I follow called Re-Legalize Nepal Official. And they have a great account if you're not already following it. It's capital R-E-Legalize Nepal Official. Legalize Nepal. Yeah, legalize. It's actually R-E underscore legalize Nepal.

15:05BubblemanAnd yeah, they're doing the good work over there kind of trying. I actually just invited her in hoping that she would get the message and she could kind of come in and and tell us a little bit about what's going on there. But yeah, they're a bomb in Lebanon and the farmers have bombs literally going off right next to their field. So obviously, my thoughts are with all the people that are getting bombed, not just the cannabis farmers.

15:30BubblemanBut we are a cannabis focused podcast. And so got to give a special shout out to those farmers. It is a dream of mine one day to be able to go and record and experience hash making in all of these countries that I've never been able to be to. So, you know, Lebanon is definitely on that list. Afghanistan is on that list. Morocco is on that list.

15:56BubblemanNepal is on that list. Yeah. Pakistan. Right. Pakistan. Yeah. Right over the over the mountains. Yep.

16:06SpeakerKashmir.

16:08BubblemanYeah. Kashmir would be amazing. These are these are places that like when I when I was in India and wanted to go up to Kashmir, they were like, no, you can't you can't do that. It's not it's not safe. I was like, what's the worst that could happen? He's like, you could be beheaded. I'm like, well, that's pretty bad. Like, that's that's pretty bad. As far as the worst that could happen, that's like.

16:33BubblemanThe worst that could happen. That's right up there, yeah.

16:37Etienne FontanI didn't do resin heads, not losing my head, right?

16:41BubblemanI'd like to echo the sentiments of Lord Sav. Damn, Wade, you're looking marvelous today. That was said in chat by the Lord himself, Lord Sav.

16:55Collin PalmerYeah. So Sam, I have a question for you. In the Middle East, what countries have you traveled through? And of those countries, if you traveled through them, are your favorite in terms of the best producers? And then why?

17:13SpeakerWell, the best producers, first of all, do you mean the cheapest prices, the highest quality? Highest quality, just like the highest quality that... Well, the highest quality I ever saw of commercial hashish anywhere in a traditional country was in Afghanistan. And it was not very expensive, but it would be just short of melting and bubbling. And it was pretty, and it was dirt cheap. I mean, the first year I went there in 71, you could buy a mediocre hash for $5 a kilo.

17:57SpeakerAnd the best of the best of the best for less than 100. Wow.

18:03Collin PalmerSo during that time, do you think most of those varietals that they were growing were hybrids at that point?

18:11SpeakerNo, I think there was a regional areas of Afghanistan where the land race was the dominant variety because there weren't people bringing seeds and taking seeds. I mean, maybe a tiny, tiny bit in the Afghan community, but it was a very slow, stable land race in each local area.

18:36Collin PalmerRight, because I think back, you know, in the just the modern breeding circles, we talk a lot about Mel Frank's Afghan one and a lot of just like pigeonhole selection that made it over to the United States. And it seemed to me it was such a small snapshot and window. It's hard to believe that that Afghan plant influenced such a large population.

18:56SpeakerWell, I've imported thousands of different Afghan seeds from many different areas of Afghanistan. And I'd say the majority of the plants I grew, they weren't super winners and they weren't super great, you know, but there, all they want to do is produce as much resin as possible. And the chemical profile is not necessarily just THC. I mean, what we found when we analyzed all the individuals we grew was that 25% of them were high THC only.

19:36Speaker25% of them were mostly high CBD only. And 50% were in between with those two dominants and maybe a few other minors.

19:48BubblemanSo they were just growing with seeds, Sam?

19:51SpeakerThey were growing strictly with seeds, period. Yes. And yeah. And they did not. So it was intrinsically different. If you grow something, it seems to me you get a better resin profile and can have a terpene profile.

20:17Collin PalmerInteresting. Interesting that they wouldn't miss that. Yeah, it's one of those things I think about a lot because it's, you know, I'm constantly searching through populations to find outliers and it's, you know, as you go deeper, you start to question what is an outlier, you know, at this stage. And it's pretty interesting to hear that from you because it makes a lot of sense. There seems like there's a lot of influence from all over in terms of broadleaf varietals.

20:46Collin PalmerUm, especially because of the profiles that they all individually, especially nowadays that they express, it's kind of, I'm starting to see like terpenylene make its way into hybrid, you know, into, into broadleaf almost, you know, and that, that never, that would be extremely easy to do.

21:05SpeakerYeah. You can make hemp with the most ganja, the most, Hashish type smells and you can do vice versa. I guarantee it.

21:18Collin PalmerYeah, no, it's, it's what I'm, it's exactly what I'm landing on. It's, it's been an interesting journey on that, that front, but it's also more importantly for me, at least it's, it's, I'm trying to tie it back to where things came from and it's just extremely difficult. You don't really know. But it's, it's a fun exercise to kind of look and see, well, maybe this came from, you know, this region of the world or that came from that region, but ultimately Without using that stock from those regions, you never truly know.

21:54SpeakerI know when I was there, probably the best hash came from bulk.

22:01SpeakerAnd yeah, it was the purest, the cleanest, the strongest. And it wasn't very expensive.

22:18BubblemanGeez, now that sounds like the good old days.

22:22SpeakerIf you look at those Afghan populations compared to the rest of the cannabis germplasm pool, I would think that that Afghan went through like a real bottleneck just because it's so different morphology in terms of morphology than the rest of the plants. I'm sure some of that...

22:44SpeakerThank you for watching.

23:04SpeakerWell, yeah, but in Afghanistan, I honestly don't think the Afghan varieties require mildew resistance. No, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Only in that area. In the West or in the tropics. You know, you try growing an Afghan and good luck. I mean, yeah, exactly. Well, they'd melt right away and you'd have a really heavy selection force against it. It's kind of like the non autos, right.

23:37SpeakerBeing selected against in those Northern Russian kind of environments. Like the only thing that would survive in that environment would be an auto that triggered like with a quick flower. So those are kind of like some of the consequences of cannabis' breeding system, the way that it works, right? Like it really pushes those plants. But in terms of the terpenylene in Afghans, that's probably a hybrid. Terpenylene is dominant in crosses, right?

24:02SpeakerYou know, you used to see all these Dutch seed bags in like the early 90s saying, oh, we've managed to put in the, you know, this haze terpene profile into the Afghan plant. Well, that's just a matter of dominance. It's not a matter of breeding, right? Like if you cross like an amnesia haze type plant with an Afghan, the amnesia haze is going to run rampant all over the flavor profile.

24:27Collin Palmerso yeah i would i would say that you know what you're looking at is probably even though it looks like an afghan plant it's probably a hybrid yeah that that's kind of my point i think is like and even going back to like plants like i was just like analyzing super booth the other day and it's like it's such a sativa forward morphology but it has all the signs of a classic indica varietal in terms of the resin production You know, so it's, it's really, it's fascinating to me as I, you know, you go down these wormholes, it just opens up more and more to explore, you know, Ryan.

25:03Collin PalmerSo it's like, it just has, it's just opened up this new world for me that I'm starting to pay attention to new things that I didn't as a, as a cultivator specifically. Things I didn't pay attention to were the morphology and how that

25:21Collin PalmerSo it's been an interesting exercise to look at it that way. Still plenty to be done, but I'm trying to understand it in terms of how the whole part plays the bigger picture here.

25:38SpeakerDon't forget the importance of the F2 or a self of an F1 cross. In this cannabis industry, we have this thing where people start to say like, you know, take wedding, like a cookies and cross it with a wedding thing, right? And they call it like wedding cookies or something like that. And it's kind of like the F1 is enough, right? And it's not. Like the F1 is really, you mask a lot of the important traits of the parental generation in the F1.

26:08SpeakerThank you for watching.

26:26Collin PalmerYeah, I mean, honestly, CS, I've been playing around with a lot of inspectors worked and some of his S1 work is, I mean, some of the plants I've seen are insane.

26:39Collin PalmerI used to believe that a feminized plant was not nearly as capable. And now I have a completely different perspective.

26:50SpeakerYeah, that whole thing was done, again, it's based on the methodology that was, all these impressions that we have, you know, we learn these lessons and like, again, in the 90s, the first feminized seeds that hit the market weren't made, you know, Sam was doing it, We'll see you next time.

27:28SpeakerYeah, so they were crossing these plants that ended up having, you know, intersex traits. And that's, of course, when you self or hybridize plants with intersex traits, you get more intersect plants, right? Like that's the breeders kind of... You know, motto is like, like begets like, right? So if you're using plants that have that trait, obviously the progeny are more likely to have that trait as well.

27:51SpeakerSo, you know, when they, when they sold those seeds on the market as feminized seeds and people bought them and grew them out and had tons of intersex problems, of course, everybody thought that feminized seed sucks. Right. And it wasn't, it wasn't the concept of like female, female breeding that was wrong. It was the way that they were doing it. Right. And it gave a whole it gave a whole generation of growers this understanding that I absolutely agree with you.

28:18SpeakerWe made dozens of all female varieties, but we screened females that we were going to use for this work to make the feminized seeds. We screened them first to make sure they were Really not any tendency with any kind of environmental stress to express male flowers. Well, and that was one of the things that you taught us with the GW work or the work that ended up being published through GW with the single cannabinoid profiles.

28:51SpeakerWhen you mate two females together that have the traits of interest, you know, in the case of either CBD or CBG or, you know, even the propyl work that you guys did, the THCV lines and the CBDV lines. You get better results, right? And then we essentially replicated your method when I was working with Napro. And we did the same thing with flavor class profiles, with terpene profiles.

29:15SpeakerThe only thing that was our significant problem, of course, was that when you self for three, four, whatever generations, the plant starts getting with no vigor, no resistance to disease or pest. It... By the time of S4, we were having serious problems where plants were functionally sterile. You could get pollen out of the sticky little male flowers with a Q-tip, but you couldn't get it to naturally release.

29:52SpeakerIt was functionally sterile, although in fact viable. But we solved that in the end by using very

30:03SpeakerUnrelated varieties for the S1s and et cetera that we made, but we used four completely unrelated varieties, combined them at the very end, and wham, bang, it restored all the bigger. It was even more amazing than I could believe. Well, again, this comes around from understanding the breeding system of the plant, right? Cannabis is a natural out-crosser. Out-crossers accumulate all these negative... Alleles, these non-functional alleles in the genome, because when you're constantly, it's really the best way to think about breeding cannabis is breeding, right?

30:47SpeakerLike the same things that you do with breeding cannabis, you kind of don't want to do with humans. You don't mate with your sisters, right? You don't mate with your cousins. And it's kind of funny, but like, You know, the reality is, is like humans have probably done all that stuff, right? And in through doing all those things, they've learned, hey, this doesn't work out, right? And the reason is, is that, like I said, with saying cannabis accumulates all these negative mutations and important genes, and they're usually masked because the plant normally hybridizes, it normally out crosses to another member of the cohort.

31:24SpeakerAnd so those those negative alleles can be carried around in the heterozygous form. So when you start breeding it through selfing, which is a very severe inbreeding strategy, all these little ugly things start rearing their head.

31:44SpeakerAnd, you know, we were talking about this on LinkedIn the other day, right? I mean, you put up those pictures of that floppy plant, the creeper plant that was growing along the ground. And I made it put a post up saying that it was probably, you know, or possibly a mutation in a lignin gene. Right. And it's just one of those rare plants, like the one in a thousand that has two copies of that bad, you know, that dysfunctional gene and the plant can't end up standing up.

32:12SpeakerRight. So, you know, so that's what breeders do is we exploit these mutations that lead to interesting phenotypes. And then we start stacking those mutations together. Right. Mutants are not a bad thing, right? Like, I mean, the THC, again, Sam, your work at Horror Farm showed this, like the THC-BT-null gene and the BD-null gene, those null THC acid synthase and CBD acid synthase genes, they end up accumulating CBG because...

32:50SpeakerThose alleles that are responsible for the enzymes that turn CBG into THC or turn CBG into CD, they don't work, right? And so you end up having an accumulation of the precursor. So that's really what it's all about is like exploiting mutations.

33:10Collin PalmerYeah, I was, I think that's well said because I think some of our favorite plants are mutations like OGKB is one to talk about there. It just, it's a short squat plant, needs extra time to veg. It's not really a commercial producer, but when it produces its flower, it's some of the best, you know, and it just, it does everything that you need it to do. It tastes good in flower form.

33:34Collin PalmerIt washes well. You know, it's just a, You know, GMOs, same thing, you know, it's a kind of an outlier. I saw that when I grew a lot of the S1s of Chem D and Chem 91, knowing those clones so well, it was awesome to see all these different expressions from, you know, that, you know, those those those lines. It was it was really interesting. I saw thousands of different plants that resembled those lines, but were uniquely themselves.

34:04Collin PalmerAnd some of them were actually better plants, you know, in terms of just how they grew and how they fed.

34:11SpeakerSo for breeding for cannabinoids, it's almost required. It really, really makes it possible to start with one percenters of a minor cannabinoid and the next generation to have three to five. Next generation to have five to 10. The next generation to have, you know, 10 to 15% of really just the cannabinoids you want with little or nothing else.

34:47Etienne FontanIf you look in the chats, I put in the chat both of those links to the USDA's, those creeper plants. These are the two I got from the gentleman who runs it. And those are in chat and YouTube. I posted both those links in there too. Neither of those extensions are available.

35:07SpeakerThose are creeper drug varieties, though, not creeper hemp varieties. Am I correct? You are correct. Yeah. I have not seen a lot of creeper varieties.

35:24BubblemanHey, welcome, Mojave and Camara.

35:29MojaveHey, guys. Good morning. I've been enjoying listening in while I do some morning chores.

35:37BubblemanYeah, I was also quite enjoying Ryan going nice and deep on that. It's nice to break it down. Not everyone understands these things. I don't even pretend to understand them myself, but... I understand when everything lines up, there's a sweet spot. And so I just appreciate finding the sweet spot, I guess, if you will. And then explaining it to other people. This is how, this is one way.

36:03BubblemanAnd of course, once again, who would come up with this but Skunk Man Sam. Pretty awesome.

36:10Etienne FontanMojave and I got to spend this week together in a field and we got to see, well, for me, it was new. It was a red cover shade netting. Which was rather fascinating. People are experimenting with the hue colors now to...

36:29Etienne FontanOne, you know, shade the plants, protect them from the heat. And it was 110 when we were out there this week together. So it was really hot and it reflects. And Mojave, do you want to go into the technical explanations?

36:45SpeakerWhat happens if the plants would rather be dead than red? Yeah.

36:53Etienne FontanRed Spectrum apparently likes following females.

36:58MojaveYeah, it was very far out. It was a couple acres under red shade cloth in Lake County in extreme heat. It was intense. They didn't have... I mean, essentially what they're doing is they're shading off because it just gets too hot and too, you know, it's the heat is the heat is insane. And they've done green shade cloth in the past. And this is the first year that they did red.

37:26MojaveFrom my understanding, what it's doing is it's, it's, you know, it's reflecting red photons and it's filtering out more of the blue and green and other spectrums. So it's kind of a deep red influence, you know, just like you would like with LED lights, you'd have a little bit more.

37:44SpeakerWhen we did it at my greenhouse in Amsterdam, we used, there was three pliers of, of, White, black and white. And then on the outside, there was woven, all of these fabrics were woven so air could get through them, was mylar, which really reflected heat great.

38:08MojaveYeah, these are and this is that reflective kind of metal sheen. I'm not exactly sure the material, but I have seen the reflective metal net where it's like a silver. It's actually just it's like a woven. But no, this was this was really interesting. It was really good flower. Really good group, all organic. You know, small crew, three people running multiple acres for, you know, other than the contract labor, putting it in and pulling it out.

38:39MojaveBut it was, you know, as far out as definitely cannabis agriculture, full steam. And before that, ATN wasn't there. But on the way up, we visited a field in Watsonville that was about 13 acres in one location, four or five in another. It was all fresh frozen. That was a trip. That was like straight agriculture. Just crazy. 13-acre field, 50 people out there stripping leaves like crazy in the 105, 106-degree heat, pulling it in under cloth and processing it, bucking it like crazy, man, watching people do piecework.

39:18MojaveSo they're getting paid by the volume. So they're working really fast, moving things through bins and then boxing it up in boxes with dry ice to 105, 106. They were freezing it in the field, Sam, but they just had to get it into the freezer.

39:47MojaveAnd the reason that the dry ice, the dry ice helps because you're bringing this hot flour. I mean, it's crazy just to think how hot that produce is. They're bringing in hot flour and they're putting it into cardboard boxes. You know, they're labeled boxes with all their compliance packaging and stuff on it. But just bringing in that volume of warm material into the freezer really screws up the process.

40:09MojaveSo getting that first layer of dry ice in there just to cool it down just enough so that you're not constantly, you know, forcing your freezers to overwork. And but so, yeah, it was it was really impressive.

40:21SpeakerIt was definitely, you know, it was contributing to the carbon dioxide release in the universe.

40:33MojaveSay that again?

40:34SpeakerNo, that's not CO2 that's created, it's recycled. They recycle CO2 to create dry ice.

40:42MojaveOh yeah, no, no, but it is a real, yeah, this CO2, dry ice CO2 is from Atmosphere. But at the same time, that was one of the first conversations, I was like, whoa, when you guys load that into the truck...

40:57MojaveThey're like, yeah, hold your breath, run in and run out because the CO2 is really, really high. They're actually thinking about, you know, respirator, oxygen, little things that they could figure out for putting it in there. But yeah, it's off gassing a massive amount of CO2. It's probably 10, 15,000 parts per million CO2 in there. I mean, you could just see that the boxes were all just like smoking.

41:22SpeakerI used to use a rotary brush particle sifter for extracting dry sift ash off of big long branches. But I never had my employees working under CO2. They had to wear ski jumpsuits because it was a walk-in freezer. But I would freeze it overnight and then the next morning work on it. It's interesting. They did something similar in Mojave when I was working at Salinas, as you know.

42:00SpeakerThere was a guy that actually built his own refrigeration plant essentially for processing strawberries and lettuce because there's these community plants. But what ends up happening is you load your produce onto a truck and then they bring those trucks in one at a time. So you can end up with like a backlog of trucks waiting to get into the facility to cool down. And any moment that there's that produce is sitting in the truck, it's degrading.

42:26SpeakerRight. So, yeah, you want to get that stuff on ice right away, even if it's not freezing it down, you're just slowing down that rate of decline. Right. Because especially if you get like Botrytis or any kind of any kind of bugs or any kind of mold or anything that goes out that's growing, that stuff just rips at high temperatures. Right. Like those life cycles just ramp right up and it starts destroying the produce.

42:49MojaveTotally. And they told me, Ryan, they said like it's surrounded by apple fields, actually like right pretty close to Martinelli's apple fields. And they said last year, you know, that they just sit there and watch those apples because as soon as those apples drop, It just rocks the field. You just like, boom, they drop and then botrytis, they just mold it on the ground and then just boom, the whole valley is just filled with spores like overnight.

43:16MojaveSo they're in hustle mode. And of course, and then, you know, it was kind of a surprise heat wave. I mean, it was definitely hotter than normal and everyone was kind of tripping out. But, you know, some people wanted to pick that week. Some people wanted to pick next week. And you've got, you know, the labor force that you got to put together, all the things, it just goes to show it's like, it's, it's, we're entering this new phase of cannabis where like, you've got to make certain calls on production that are really, it's ag, you know, and I was talking to this, this, this lady who runs the field with the red light.

43:48MojaveAnd I was like, have you ever guys get like, get people out here early, like in the middle of the night or, and she's like, yeah, we do that because it just totally makes sense to come out here, you know, Two a.m., three a.m., start picking. But after a week or so, it starts impacting everyone's life because they have families and they got to go to school appointments, all the stuff that you have to do.

44:11MojaveAnd certain crops will do that. They'll pick early in the morning, but that's because they have labor that has been doing that for a long time and they understand what it means to have a two or three a.m. call. You know, it's like going out fishing or something.

44:26Collin PalmerSo it's just, it's interesting to see the dynamic around cannabis shift to more like, you know, less about the plant and more about the production, you know, because it's just... Yeah, I mean, we, in our SOPs for Vessel, like we won't, we've never accepted, if it touches dry ice, we can't accept it. There's too many variables for us as hash makers, right? That we've had a lot of bad luck with people that have used it at scale that have delivered us products that we were intending to wash and then had to turn it around and send it back.

45:03SpeakerYou were talking about Martinelli's apple juice. They used to buy them from my farm and they'd pick them up off the ground, bruised, whatever. It doesn't matter because most of the Martinelli juice is going to sparkling cider.

45:22Collin PalmerIt's really interesting you brought up the apples because you know in New York State there's a you know if you've driven around not just upstate but just around even the Albany area and go west there's a lot tremendous amount of apple orchards there um and up it goes swings up into the Finger Lake region too but they're littered around New York State and I think um That's a big one.

45:47Collin PalmerI think that's a really good call for a lot of these outdoor farmers that are dealing with the fall.

45:54SpeakerI don't know if you know that Johnny Appleseed, the seeds he distributed were mostly crab apples for cider, alcohol cider. And it was the most reliable, easiest way for people to produce alcohol. alcohol and uh yeah yeah he was kind of front running the settlers making sure that they had their alcohol supply because that was such a key thing back then in the day right like You don't remember alcohol?

46:26SpeakerI did a history of alcohol course when I was in university. And people don't really think about this, but like back, back in the day, it wasn't safe to be drinking water, right? We didn't have water filtration and, you know, sterilization and all these things. So people drank alcohol because that certain amount of alcohol in the, in the water or in the, in the drink actually suppressed bacteria.

46:48SpeakerRight. So it was really about like having a safe, if you can call it safe. You were drunk, but you were safe from dysentery. Yeah, from the microorganisms. Ryan, what's the... Sorry, go ahead. I just wanted to circle back on what Mojave was saying about the crop. And bring back home to this equatorial Afghanica thing a little bit as well. Shading out crops is about reducing the light intensity.

47:17SpeakerSure. It's heat as well, but too much light on plants is actually problematic, right? Like in indoor growing, we've got a lot of people have kind of grown up thinking that like, you know, the more light, the better, as long as it happens between that 12 hour light cycle. Right. But when you're growing in the sun, especially in California, where it's actually quite hot or Mexico or all these places farther, farther south.

47:38SpeakerThere's a concept called daily light integral or DLI. And DLI is essentially like, you can think of it like photon flux per day, right? So photon flux is the amount of light that a plant is receiving in a second. But like over the course of a day, a plant will receive so much light. And you can actually saturate the plant that like say eight hours, right? Right.

48:02SpeakerOr even like six hours of the lights intense enough, but you have to preserve that 12 hour light cycle. Like that's what the plant evolved to have. So that's why they ended up shading these plants out. Um, so that you can actually reduce the number of photons that are hitting the plant and it doesn't overwhelm the plant because the plant has to just like when you, you go out in the sun and you're sweating, you know, that's your body's way of dealing with that extra heat, right?

48:24SpeakerLike you're, you're evaporating water off your body and that cools your, that cools your temperature down. So we shade plants in the same way because we're growing all these hybrid plants that have big wide leaves, right? And so they're just, they're huge solar panels. They're sucking up tons of light. Whereas if you look at like, again, bringing it back to the equatorials or the narrow leaf plants, those thin lamina, those really thin leaf blades that you see on equatorial plants, that's a way that the plant evolved to reduce the amount of light that it was taking in.

49:01SpeakerSo this is another trait that these growers might want to look at breeding some of these hybrids towards, just the thin lamina, so that these plants are actually harvesting less sun. Because less sun, less energy. It's less energy that they have to deal with Brian, Brian Schroeder, Brownie Mary, Cannabrand Solutions Team, Chris Bernard, Cheryl T Rose, Chip, Chris Bennett.

49:43MojaveAnd it doesn't really speak to quality as much, but they're finding that cannabis can take a really high DLI. That unlike any other crop, it seems to just keep sucking it up.

49:58MojaveBut, and that's also, you know, those trials are not based off of, you know, quality material that they can sell. They're just, I can't find the threshold for when cannabis says I give up, you know, at PPFD and at just accumulated DLI. But back to your equatorial, like there's another great reason why there should be more equatorial influence in the gene pool, right? And you can just keep stacking all these different reasons why people should be growing more, you know,

50:29SpeakerI think even if it's the hybrids, again, this is just a trait that you can shape, right? This is something that we can actively breed for. Bugme's interest or his work is really interesting, but because of where they are, they can only grow the CBD type, right? And a lot of the work applies, but it's like I'd really like to see him grow on THC stuff. One thing I wanted to say is I've stood in fields before.

50:53SpeakerYou know when you're driving down the highway and you see those mirages? It's really the heat coming off the... Thank you so much for joining us today.

51:20SpeakerYou know, they mess with the lights, not the lights, they mess with the wavelengths that are passing through and you get that kind of wavy look to plants. People should look at that on big fields. Mojave, I bet you'd see that tons down in California. But again, it's like, I think that that might be one of the ways that cannabis deals with having excess heat because plants, they do have a range, right?

51:46SpeakerA tolerance range and cannabis might be higher. But like, you know, plants have to deal with the excess energy that they absorb, just like humans do, right? Or they overheat, they don't do well. With 50 years of experience, what I found was that vegetatively, it's hard to give cannabis too much light for most varieties. When it flowers, It can easily do with half as much intense light.

52:14SpeakerAnd the quality seems to be the same and the yield too, because if it's not, if all it's doing is adding the resin at the end, then lower light levels seem to, if anything, be more beneficial to avoid high terpene loss, et cetera.

52:35Collin PalmerIt does. So I wanted to bring up the color temperature thing that was brought up. And I think the Kelvin temperature scale is sort of important. You know, it's the morning is is a different color temperature than night and throughout the day that is shifting in that shift in color temperature is absolutely affecting Thank you so much for joining us.

53:21Collin PalmerUm, in some of these plants, um, not all, but it seems like that's part of the, the bigger picture here is, as we were all alluding to, um, you know, there's in the morning, it's two, 2000 K to 3000 K moving up to, I think 5,500, 50, you know, 55.

53:43Collin PalmerAnd then it goes back down. So, and then the temperature of that, I think is a big, it's a big, you know, it's a big driver. I don't know how anyone else feels if they've done experiments with HPS versus LED and then the different recipes that you can do within each respective lighting system in the LED.

54:09SpeakerThat's related to how much atmosphere the light is passing through before it gets to the ground. Thank you so much for joining us.

54:34SpeakerThey become white flowers. You've seen that, Mojave, I'm sure. And that's as a consequence of just really high intensity light in the plant just not being able to tolerate it. So the point is there is a sweet spot, right? There's always a sweet spot. Yeah, more is not always better.

54:56MojaveNo, exactly. Well, there's all kinds of other things that kick into play because now it's about how you're, you know, you're stimulating the plant to use all its energy. And it's hard to put things on the racetrack at that speed. Let's just put it that way. Like there's definitely some guys who can push Numbers really high. And the difference between light intensity from LEDs, for instance, than from HPS was so different in how the plant, what is it called?

55:24MojaveWater usage something. But it's basically how it's drawing up because of the higher humidity and the less heat signal that's coming from above it. But in terms of like spectrum control and stuff like that, I've been going down the rabbit hole on that quite a bit. Not so much for production, not for flowering, but just overall trying to understand How a plant reacts to different light spectrum in terms of phytochrome response, you know, bar red and UV and all that.

55:55MojaveAnd what it always comes down to is it always comes down to this cultivar specific thing, which is kind of like the death nail of our industry, which is like all the fine tuning that we can do in the spectrum for production really is specific to the cultivar that you're growing. To Ryan's point about, you know, equatorial versus You know, Northern Latitude stuff. So it's hard, you know, to just come up with a recipe.

56:20MojaveSo you see a thousand different growers all trying to figure out the right recipe for the one plant that they grow this season. It's like, dude, let's all work together. Let's figure out what plants are the best to grow, or at least let's get a little bit more of a system that we can apply as an industry. But for the most part, yeah, the way that people are now using red LEDs to trigger flower response.

56:46MojaveAnd, you know, the way you can use, you know, additional blue to make a squatter plant and all that stuff. It's like, if you really know your plant and you really know your row room and your climate control and all that stuff, you can just tweak things probably more with light than you can with fertilizer, which was the big push in our industry for decades where it was just like, oh, what fertilizer are you using?

57:08MojaveLike that was the secret sauce. But now like climate and light, it's like, duh, it's like, The sun and the air, you know, it's like nature has a way of dealing with the micronutrients and all that stuff through different biomes. But the light and the air, if you don't got the light and the air right in your grow, then nothing's going to work.

57:29Collin PalmerWell, specifically at the LED, I think HBS is a little bit more forgiving. I think that's something to call out. You know, we all I had a lot of great success with LEDs. I had a lot of friends that were like, I don't know how you're getting the success with this. And I'd call it lucky. I didn't understand in the early days of LED how much the environment and how much the humidity played a role in the plant response.

57:55Collin PalmerAnd it was really eye-opening as I went on that journey. I'm sure others in here can talk for days on it. But yeah, it seems like...

58:05SpeakerI love the sun. Yeah. No, the sun's the best, right? But, you know, my early days,

58:14Collin PalmerThank you so much for joining us.

58:34BubblemanYou got something to say about that there, Thomas?

58:37GmlWelcome. Hi, sorry, I just jumped in. So I didn't hear about the last few minutes of what you guys were saying. But I saw you guys were on the DLI topic. And the one thing that just recommendations, I think if you're in flour and you're not using supplemental CO2, you don't ever want to go over 34. If you're using supplemental CO2, I think any starting point should be 43.

59:02GmlAnd if you don't have a DLI of 43 or experiment with that, I think you could be definitely leaving meat on the table. And I've seen strains that are taking high PPFD up to 56. Basically, like I know I've heard of other people going even higher than 1300 PPFD. When I say 56, I'm referencing using 1300 PPFD at 12 hours a day.

59:24GmlBasically. And even for like in vegetation for like teens and stuff like that, I think a really sweet spot of vegetation is around 22. And a lot of people, you know, traditionally have always done 18 hours of vegetation and six hours off. I think it's totally safe to go 17 hours, like cutting off an hour is totally safe. And same with a lot of people to push the PPFD limits in flower too.

59:49GmlWe'll also omit an hour and we do like an 11 and 13 hour cycle, which You know, it felt really weird at first, but I've definitely experimented with it too. And yeah, so sorry, I didn't hear the last couple of minutes. I was just dealing with my kids, so I didn't know exactly where you guys were in your conversation.

1:00:09BubblemanWe were just kind of talking about, I mean, really how the conversation started. Mojave was talking about a red shade that filtered out the blue spectrum of the light. And that sort of led down this whole topic of really your sort of area of expertise in regards to LED lighting. Ryan had just mentioned how, you know, the plant can only take so much and, you know, you see the blanching of the buds and the tips when some people grow improperly and blast too much light over their plants.

1:00:47GmlAbsolutely. Yeah, that's that's a big problem. And one of the biggest factors in that is using too much deep red. So you get bleaching all over the buds and it looks like a kind of like a white color that goes out. And it's yeah, there is it is honestly a problem. I think a lot of people are trying to push, push, push, and sometimes like less can be so much more.

1:01:06GmlBut there are strains that can take it. And if you don't give them a chance, you know, they you're leaving meat on the table. And I think one clear sign Our thing that you can do is by adding intensity, like just by gradually adding it, because the plant usually will tell you overnight, you'll see like little purple streaks in the stems. And there's all different ways to get purple in the stems, but that's definitely one of them is light intensity.

1:01:31GmlOne thing that I just thought I'd bring up, it's completely probably off topic that you guys were talking about, but I think it's kind of a breakthrough that came up on my show last night. This fellow was using, he's got one of our lights and he's been growing one pound autos. And I like, you know, and I've, from what I've talked to a lot of people, one pound sounds a lot Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:02:20GmlLike if you get the second you get a bluff, like 15 to 20% ratios of it, it can be used to completely stretch it. And I know that's a rare case where you want to make your plant stretch, but there are certain, like if you had different strains in one room and you wanted one to get up to an equal part of the canopy, that would be one reason, which is pretty rare.

1:02:37GmlBut I think for auto flowers, that this could be a real game changer for upping people's yields. Because a lot of times I see, like I've talked to James about it and he says a lot of his only yield two ounces. Well, what if they were a bit bigger before they, you know, flipped over? Anyways, what do you guys think about that? I thought it was pretty interesting.

1:02:54GmlI'd never heard anything, anyone say that. I was just kind of fascinated. I'm like, congratulations, because I seriously think you're onto something here.

1:03:00Collin PalmerHow many weeks is he doing? Do you know?

1:03:03SpeakerYeah. And what was the, what was the, the other thing I wanted to know is what his system was in. Like, was he growing hydro or was he growing in dirt?

1:03:09GmlHe's actually was growing in Rockwell and I've never, I've never heard of anybody. He was hand watering in Rockwell twice a day. Like this is just a guy.

1:03:17Collin PalmerYou can do numbers in Rockwell though. I've seen incredible numbers, uh, specifically with LEDs, like a weird.

1:03:25SpeakerWell, one of the things about autos is when they don't yield well often. Look, if you stunt autos in the roots at all when they're growing in the beginning of the stage, the plant won't yield shit. They just have a smaller yield. So anything that you can do to keep that root system growing, especially at the beginning, makes a big difference. And what you're saying about the stretching is really interesting as well.

1:03:48SpeakerI thought it would be a combination of that and making sure the roots were growing.

1:03:53GmlYes, well, I guess I left that out. I'm just going to assume that you're putting it in perfect growing conditions and you're having an awesome drive back and your pH is in check. In that case, but yeah, I thought it was like so fascinating because like I, I have a couple people like I had this guy that was, he had our light dim, a tarantula longleg dimmed down to 30% on the white channel, but he didn't dim down the far red was on 100%.

1:04:16GmlAnd I don't know what the ratio is off the top of my head, but I would think it potentially could be 40% far red or something. And it grew like the plants grew like so fast, it stretched right through the light. So it's pretty incredible. I don't know. I thought that was really cool because I just in all the time and all the like all the discussions that I've been on panels and talking about lights that this has not been brought up.

1:04:39SpeakerSo his name was just get height or is there more actual biomass weight?

1:04:46GmlWell, I haven't been able to do any actual tests, but I would say definitely stretching and just overall more volume because the plant is getting bigger and it has internode spacing. I'd like to have an update, but I definitely have seen that it can just make it stretch in an undesirable way, but also desirable. There's a fellow named Shark Mouse Farms who He did it just as a kind of like a mini experiment because he had some other plants and he just did it for like a few days just to get them up there.

1:05:14GmlThat's how fast and responsive it is. Like the second you crank it up, they just start reaching.

1:05:20MojaveIt's like shade without the shade, right? You get the shade response of filtering out all the red light. Exactly. The intensity of light. So the rapid growth in the shade. It's like what would happen?

1:05:33GmlIt's really telling when you look at a lot of HBS grows because a lot of them, some of them are uniform, but depending on how concentrated they are, they're not. And you'll see that the uniformity is off and you see branches shooting up way higher in certain areas. And same with even LEDs. Once they get to the end of their life and if they're running really warm, they can really degrade a lot.

1:05:54GmlAnd if you have something drop off 15%, it can be pretty noticeable.

1:05:57BubblemanSo that's what I was going to ask you, Thomas, to explain kind of to the audience the difference between HPS in regards to uniformity in particular and why people are having so much success now with LEDs, especially now that they've learned that you don't want to be cranking the light the entire life cycle of the plant or you can you can kill the plant.

1:06:21GmlYeah, well, I think that the. Well, the first thing that you mentioned there about the HBS spectrum, why people are having so much... Look, success with HPS, even bulbs or LEDs with an HPS spectrum is the warmer temperature of light. When you have something that's got 58% red and then you switch it to like 43%, it's a noticeable difference and you can have different flower structure, trichome density, just everything about it can be different.

1:06:53GmlBut when you are actually only doing a couple percent, you actually don't see any difference. Like we thought, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:07:23BubblemanJust in the difference between the the difference between the uniformity of the LED versus the high pressure sodium.

1:07:31GmlWell, it's like I think the biggest thing is like the efficacy and also because of like the you've got like a big board or like you've got a whole bunch of PCBs strips that are over a larger area that are putting out way more light. And so it's just a lot more uniform. Like so if you Like if you, I'm trying to think of how to compare it.

1:07:53GmlLike if you're, um,

1:07:55SpeakerYou get more consistency across the crop, across the canopy.

1:07:58GmlOh, yeah. Like even like if you're putting basically 600 watts or like let's just even say 660 watts and it's got efficacy rating of 2.7 micromoles. It really doesn't matter what the light like if you're using one of those for like 16 square feet in a whole room, that whole room is going to be totally uniform until you actually get a wall. And anywhere where there's a wall, there's going to be a massive drop off.

1:08:23GmlBut like to be fair, like almost all lights. And the same thing is if you have one HPS light per four by four, you're going to have really awesome uniformity. But then when you go to one five by five, you actually, when you have with fresh bulbs on the first crop, it's going to be pretty incredible. But what was really revealing, I just went to this guy's facility and I went through And we started going through all the different rooms with like different age bulbs, like different heights, same wattage.

1:08:52GmlAnd it's mind blowing. And you know what? What's funny is this guy is one of the first few guys that I know that have said or confirmed what I'm about to say. When I was a single ended HBS grower, I had this connection to be able to get bulbs really cheap through Hortilux because this company would be ordering thousands. Well, I started doing side by sides where I have brand new bulbs versus my second crop, the same, like on a perfect run where there's not one thing that I'm upset about.

1:09:20GmlAnd I was noticing on like on 30 light rooms, That I'm noticing a five to seven pound difference in yield. Like that's how much they degrade. But on other grows that I had where the people were not skilled growers, it didn't make a difference. So I determined if someone is like a really skilled grower, you have to swap out your bulbs and this guy, He has double-ended HPS and he actually swaps them out after three months or he tries to at least if he can get them or he's having issues because he notices such an amount and it really makes a difference I think from a skilled grower to someone that's not as skilled if you are swapping out the lights.

1:09:56GmlI might have gone off topic there.

1:09:58Collin PalmerNo, I think you're touching on something that I've experienced at scale. I had a 15,000 square foot canopy that I was managing and I switched all the lights out, to be honest. I did a bunch of side-by-sides. I started comparing rooms. I brought in a couple different manufacturers, got them to overnight essentially hang other lights within a couple rooms and let the data tell the story. And it was really eye opening to me as someone who spent their life kind of in HBS, you know, solely and then slowly moving into LED because I was, you know, growing in New York City and small scale grows even though they're a thousand square feet.

1:10:45Collin PalmerSo, you know, every little bit helps, especially in those scenarios. So, moving to commercial growing, as I call it, at the canopy that's at that size, it was imperative that we switched it over to the pictures that we did because it just... I got just a better yield, better plant response, and it just made everything just a well-oiled machine.

1:11:09BubblemanDude, and you're paying way less electrical every month. It's like a no fucking brainer. And the craziest thing is like most states and most provinces offer insane rebates because they want you to do that. They want you to get rid of those HBS double ends and they want you to get an LED light in there. And they're just like, they've got a whole process where you meet them and they, you know, validate you.

1:11:34BubblemanAnd then they come, I'm sure, and visit once you've put the lights in to see that you've done the changeover.

1:11:39Collin PalmerBut make no mistake, like, Not all LEDs are graded equal. Like I went through PL to Portal Lux to Lux Lighting. I mean, I went through everybody. You know, it had the spiders up. I mean, I've seen...

1:11:54BubblemanListen, Thomas took me through like a lesson, bro, with the DLC. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:12:14GmlYes, well, it might be a little bit misleading saying quality, but you can check the efficacy of the fixture and the spectrum and the ratios of every single, like a blue, green, far red, and red.

1:12:28Etienne FontanSee, that's amazing, you know, going technology. Back in the 90s when I was working for Ed, when I was running Ed Rosenthal, you were talking about him earlier, I was running his grows. We were, we found that after, I mean, we were using, of course, all HPSs back then, but we saw light degradation after two and a half crops. So we were always switching out light bulbs every two crops to make sure that we had light consistency through.

1:12:54Etienne FontanSo it makes sense, you know, that these LEDs, you know, the same effect of degradation is going to happen, you know, because there's so many of them in a spectrum. It's just, Well, yeah, I'm glad that there's technology to actually now read all that to help people dial that in because that's recent technology for us.

1:13:14SpeakerYou can resell your used HPS bulbs to people who want to grow mids.

1:13:22GmlI used to give them to people. But Marcus, to answer, you also did bring it up with DLC. What they do is basically to get that certification, you have to supply them a report that proves that you have like an ETL, a UL, or a CSA certification, then provide them a light and also pay a fee. And then they independently test it in a spear and then post the results.

1:13:44GmlFor it. And yeah, one thing also, Colin, that I want to touch on about how you brought up bulbs, because I definitely did that. And like, I didn't do this with the double ended bulbs, but I have a kind of a funny story because I did two crops where I did Hortilux versus Phillips versus Advanced Nutrients, badass bulbs. And they had 100% cash back guarantee on these bulbs.

1:14:06GmlAnd I was really fucking pissed off because I bought 60 of them. One of my places to test. Well, the thing is, is I was using their nutrients at the time and I was truly having beautiful success. Like compared to like I was growing a really good product. So at the time I kind of was believing everything that they had to say. And what was really clear, well, without question, Hortilux just straight up won.

1:14:28GmlThen Phillips came second and then the Badass came in third and it was noticeable. We're talking a half pound difference of light that I noticed between the Badass versus the

1:14:37Collin PalmerThey look pretty good.

1:14:39GmlI'm assuming that that's why they discontinued it too. The one thing of all their products that I did really like, they had a really cool fan that had like a controller and it was called a badass fan too. I forget what it was, but I did figure it out.

1:14:53Collin PalmerThere were those big square fixtures. They kind of looked like HPSs to be honest. When I got them, I was like, what? Yeah. But yeah, the other thing I had to question for you, and hopefully you're not too far away from it, is like how long versus an HPS bulb, I think this would be good for the viewers and ourselves, versus an LED bulb, what is the lifespan on that?

1:15:15Collin PalmerAnd how would one justify the cost structure of these two things? Because it's definitely been a conversation that I've come up against. It's like, well, HPS is a couple bucks. And LEDs, a couple hundred bucks, you know, what's the, what's the advantage?

1:15:34GmlSo, well, when you're looking at an LED, like most LEDs should be giving you 36,000 hours of light, like a solid light without failure, without degrading too much. Now the apparent, you're supposed to disclose that they can degrade up to 10% in that 36,000 hours. But I can tell you, like we've seen reports on them and These are reports of basically what I would consider worst case scenario where like all these reports were done years ago where the the lights they were making them way less efficient they're making them way cheaper well people a lot of people still make them cheap but I'm saying they're almost under engineered running warm so the warmer the Thank you for watching.

1:16:31GmlThey're running extremely cool. So I'd like to think that they would have a 50,000 hour life, which is easily 10 years, which no one's really going to use that long. The drivers don't really last that long. And by that time, you know, within seven years to six years from now, there's going to be another, there's going to be a new diode. There's going to be breakthroughs with efficiency where it's going to, they're going to make, I would say from five years from now, they're going to make 10% gains at least, maybe even more.

1:16:57GmlYou just, you know, like a lot has happened in the, um since everything started basically and then versus like an hbs light like i think that um the real main difference is the efficacy and it's the bottom line is when you're converting you're saving about 30 to 40 percent power depending on your situation and like i just said with the life of an hbs diode on a skilled grower i'm gonna say you're gonna start noticing it on the first crop or after by the second crop it's oh you're gonna start seeing something But if it's not a skilled grower, I'd like to think that you could get a solid year out of a double-ended HBS or like someone that's still doing decent, which I see a lot of people that use them for a long time and it doesn't seem to affect them that much.

1:17:39GmlAnd I'm not trying to criticize anybody by saying that or saying that they're not skilled either, by the way, by saying that.

1:17:44BubblemanThey're just not pushing the plant to the ultimate max and pulling like ridiculous yields. Their yield is already so far below threshold that it's consistent.

1:17:52SpeakerI thought the best light to use was a quantum LED. They're supposed to last 10,000 years.

1:18:00GmlQuantum boards are, yeah, they fall apart. No, they've tested them for 10,000 years. Absolutely. Do you know what? One thing that I think that is one of the biggest issues All of these are reasons why people don't yield as much to with HPS. And it's the same, I would say that I'm at fault at this for majority of my HPS career was not having an Apogee meter and measuring the light intensity at every single step because you're either, like in so many cases, you're either like too much light is hurting you.

1:18:31GmlAnd so you're, you know, less is more. So in a lot of cases I've come into places and see it's like 1500 and you wonder why you have purple stems. So, and same with the vegetation, having just that optimum light at every single stage is why I think having an Apogee meter is gonna up your game times 10, HBS or LED.

1:18:48BubblemanAnd Thomas, can you tell the viewers the difference between the meters that only recognize PAR versus what is it, ePAR?

1:19:00GmlYeah, so basically a lot of, we've had this happen too where someone's bought our light and they're being like, oh, it's reading two to 300 PPFD lower than it should. And a lot of really cheap PAR meters are almost all of them. Let's just say over 90% of them are only gonna read between 400 and 700 nanometer where like if you've got a light that's got far red, you need it to read up to at least 450 nanometer.

1:19:25GmlAnd like, so just a lot of those cheaper ones are off by like a few hundred, but surprisingly this PPFD meter app That we have or that not we have that anybody can download. It's like with the custom setting where it says sunlight like it doesn't it's not on the right setting that you would think it is. But whatever the custom setting that comes with it comes within almost 100 PPFD of a $800 Apogee meter.

1:19:47GmlSo it's like if you if you ever can use be next to an Apogee meter and basically calibrate it to that and you can have something to really go off and then just use your phone.

1:19:58Collin PalmerYeah, photo toxicity is a big problem in this industry. A lot of facilities I've been asked to consult on, that was one of the first things that I fixed. Just going around with a light meter was the first thing I do. And, you know, I come from, Marcus and I know this from photography. It's like an overexposed image is not helping the details, right?

1:20:19Etienne FontanAny particular companies that you recommend for these types of meters? People are going to want to know now since they can read. Yeah. Well, there's some that you recommend and some that you would say stay away from.

1:20:33GmlWell, the The Apogee meters, like the ones that, that's Bruce Bugbee's company, or he's a part owner of the company. They're definitely the creme de la creme, the best. So like the, I don't know the exact model. There's quite a few different models, but any model that reads between 400 and 750 is what I would recommend. Now, it's not that I'm saying to stay away, because this, like for, if you're, because majority of the lights don't have far red in it, like over 90, I'm going to say, or like the far red levels are under 1%.

1:21:04GmlUm, or like under two at the most. So a lot of them are going to be a lot more accurate, but if you have a fixture that's got six to 9% far red, it starts kind of throwing off the readings. So there's one, um, like to be quite honest, I thought that the photo bio, there's one called, I think photo bio that seemed like it seemed pretty affordable.

1:21:23GmlAnd a lot of people seem pretty happy with it. The only, my only complaint is I've had like a few people that use it where it's reading our lights, like a few hundred under underneath. And it was really frustrating for us. Like, well, in all situations that got resolved with the customer finally tested it and saw that, okay, this thing is just off. But I think that Apogee Meter, like one of those things, like, I don't think this is something you want to cheap out on, on especially like of your grower, like when it's a business or you're doing this for profit.

1:21:54GmlSo I would say Apogee would be the way to go. And there's like, there's another brand that's like much more expensive that you can even step it up that like we use in China and stuff. I just can't remember it off the top of my head, but I could update you guys.

1:22:07Etienne FontanSo would they go to that direct site there or can they find this in different areas? Where could somebody find?

1:22:13GmlYeah, I think like I think if you I think you can literally probably buy it on Amazon at this point or like so you could probably just like for example, in British Columbia, I know that there's a place in Burnaby like I forget what type of store it is, but it's not the regular store that you would think that has it. But you just have to like Google it in your area.

1:22:31GmlAnd I'm sure that you're going to find a retailer or at the Apogee website will have, I'm sure, some sort of resellers.

1:22:40BubblemanApogee instruments dot com.

1:22:42Etienne FontanAnd the optimal number you want your lights to be at in between the 450 and 700, or is there a specific number range you want them to be at optimally?

1:22:52GmlWell, no. So like that is basically like between four to 500 is blue, between five to 600 is green, between six to 700 is red, and then between the 700 and 750 is far red. So it's basically just taking a measurement of all those and giving you what the PPFD is.

1:23:13BubblemanYeah, but I think he was asking you what you thought the ideal... Oh, like ideal PPFD recommendations.

1:23:20GmlOkay. So like for clones, I think like 100 to 120 PPFD is optimum, like at 24 hours a day light. I think then taking teens... I really believe 350 is just a beautiful sweet spot where they just really veg just incredible. I don't see a reason to go over 500 in veg. I see some people with like bigger plant like like grow like really big kind of tree plants that sometimes like to beef them up with more light.

1:23:48GmlThank you for watching.

1:24:06GmlThat were sensitive to a thousand PPFD with supplemental CO2. It's kind of rare. Like there are these weird strains that don't like light, but even can be weird, uh, but high yielders. And then I think that if, uh, if everything goes completely good with a thousand PPFD and you don't see any type of sign. Thank you for watching.

1:24:52GmlIt's going to translate into yield because they can just take so much. And if not giving it to them, it's going to yield way less. So I think those are what I would say would be the guidelines for different levels.

1:25:04MojaveThomas, can I ask you a quick question while we're on the topic? Sure. You mentioned longer flowering periods, like 13 hours plus. It was actually shorter.

1:25:16GmlI meant longer light periods because so you're basically adding more intense light and now you have to shorten the amount of light to compensate for it or else the DL would be too high.

1:25:28MojaveOh, okay. Because aren't some people running 13-hour days with...

1:25:33GmlI think it's possible. Like I have heard, I did hear somebody, I actually heard some sort of like 14 and some sort of weird type of light cycle, but I can't, I don't want to misspeak on it, but I did hear something, but I would say what's more common is people like even going 11 or even going down to 10. If they're really pumping it and where it would be could be in a unique situation.

1:25:54GmlSay your plant stretched way too high and it's like so intense. And instead of the thing being just totally fucked up and getting all messed up, you could shorten your light cycle to compensate for it. So in the end, you which would translate into a better end crop, in my opinion.

1:26:09MojaveWell, the reason I ask is that, you know, I think that we don't really like the 12 hour number is kind of just an arbitrary number that works for short day plants.

1:26:19GmlYeah, I think you're right.

1:26:21MojaveThere's a lot of plants that can stretch all the way into, you know, and I was just visiting another farm. This guy grows a bunch of, you know, land-raised derived stuff. And he's been doing this 18-hour flower thing, you know, and he's got, so it's basically an auto anywhere you grow it, basically, but you can throw a light on it and keep it in veg. And I've just been screwing around with putting plants out in the backyard for the past 20 years of my life here in Southern California.

1:26:52MojaveAnd so many plants trigger at 14 hours, 13 and a half. I mean, if you think where 12 hours actually lands in the season, Most plants are well into flower by that point. So I think it's just a big conversation, especially for LED light manufacturers and growers is, you know, we don't really know what cultivar, where those trigger points are. So we don't know where that threshold of where we can play with the light in a safe zone, which is great for indoor, but also speaks to where you can grow the plant in what latitude around the world.

1:27:27SpeakerYeah, I think you're a hobby. I've seen where you Grow a plant under long light photo periods and then put it at a photo period of 12 hours or whatever it is you're going to use for flowering. And some varieties will have a relative reaction. In other words, if you had maintained that plant at 18 hours, the response is different than if you were maintaining it under 24 hours of light.

1:28:00Mojave100%. It'll actually flower earlier than it would in nature. So its trigger point might be, you know, 13 hours or 12 and a half hours. But when that relative shift is so dramatic, it just throws it in.

1:28:14SpeakerYeah, it's photo period relative much more.

1:28:18GmlI think I just can say, I think it's a great topic and a great point to bring up that there's a lot of work that needs to be done that we don't know, like, and also cultivar dependent, right?

1:28:32GmlSo many different cultivars are going to finish at different times. I know that anytime I ever see anything finish earlier, or let's just say it's towards the end of August and I'm on Instagram and seeing a video, I always am attracted to seeing nice meat on the plants early on. It's always so nice to see because in Canada, it's definitely an issue trying to finish crops on time.

1:28:58SpeakerYeah, we've figured that out now. Well, we're not figuring it out, but we've started to make some real contributions to the actual genes involved in critical day length or critical night length, like how early a plant will flower based on the length of the night cycle or the night period, I should say. So we're getting, there's a guy named George Stack out of Connell University or Connell, I think you were up with him, maybe Etienne and Bobby?

1:29:23SpeakerYeah, we met George. Also the other varieties. When they're one of the parents, so it's a half and half auto, those will be not as early as an auto, but they're much earlier. Yeah, so there's a secondary set of genes that... They respond differently to different critical night lengths. And I think that's probably also something that we can breed into the autos as well. Because, you know, like you were saying, grandmaster level, like a longer veg period and putting on more of a frame on an auto plant yields to look, ends up giving more yield, right?

1:30:01SpeakerSo we can essentially breed, you know, when I really noticed it when I was down in California, I was living in California and I maintained a residence in British Columbia on the island. And I'd be talking to my girlfriend at the time. And, you know, I'd be watching the sunset in California and talking to her and the sun would be high in the sky back home in Canada.

1:30:21SpeakerAnd so, you know, when the night comes, like how long the day is or how long the night is, It really is like an important trait that you can essentially custom breed for different environments because while Canada is farther north, we're getting longer days, right? So you really have to have plants that trigger early if you want to have like an early harvest. And now that we're developing markers for all those traits, you can actually custom breed them into lines that would be, you know, suitable for specific agricultural zones.

1:30:54SpeakerI know you know this, but in Canada, you get longer days in the summer and longer nights in the winter. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, you know, again, your work with the hemp showed us this same thing, right? Like that's one of the reasons why hemp does so good in Canada is because we have longer days, right? You get more veg period for those, for the fibers.

1:31:16SpeakerAnd you start taking those genetics. It's like when you were talking about taking those hemp genetics down to Hawaii and growing them all down in Hawaii, the plants were all dwarfed out, right? Because they just don't get long enough. With the day length never really getting longer than 13 hours, the plants just don't veg up the same way they do when they're under like an 18, 19 hour day.

1:31:38SpeakerThere's also, I just wanted to mention this too. I've thought about it a couple of times. There was a paper where someone actually studied

1:31:46SpeakerThe amount of light that a plant gets at 11 versus 13 hours of flowering, and the plants that had only 11 hours had lower chemical outputs than 13 hours. so uh you know and that you know it's funny like this this whole thing comes up where people are talking about like oh i want the high that i used to get in the 70s or like the late you know late 60s early 70s kind of flower that was like what they call more land race and more energetic and uplifting and kind of clear-headed all that stuff is like eight to twelve percent thc right so And it's okay to like the effect of something in the 8% to 12% THC range, right?

1:32:28SpeakerLike, it's kind of like people have taken this kind of machismo, like, oh, it's got to be over 20%, 25%, or I'm not going to smoke it. And then in the same sentence, they say, yeah, you can't get these equatorial-type experiences that they used to have in the 70s. Guys, they used to have that equatorial experience because the weed wasn't strong, right? Like, if you smoke less, you have a different effect.

1:32:52SpeakerThere was some equatorial strong weed. How about Thai weed? Some of that was damn strong. I'm sure it was, but it was few and far between on the whole. Like that's not what people were experiencing, right? And it just cannabis hadn't been refined or selected for that high THC content back then. Um, so when you, anyway, when you grow, when you grow a plant on like an 11 hour light cycle and you're trying to mimic that, that light cycle that you think that the, you know, the Mexican or the Colombian evolved under, what you're actually doing is starving the plant of photo camera, you know, photosynthetic energy, and you're getting less chemical output in the plant, right?

1:33:34SpeakerAnd that chemical, that less chemical output is actually a good thing because that creates the headspace that you want. Right? You're not whacked down by a whole bunch of THC.

1:33:44GmlI have a question about that test though. Were they matching the same DLI or were they, was it different intensities, but just different photo, different photo?

1:33:54SpeakerNo, it was, it was a scientific study. So they were, everything else was held constant. Okay. And again, it's just one data point. Like I'm not saying that this is the law or anything. But it's an interesting point to understand. When you're reducing the light period that a plant is getting over, you're essentially reducing the DLI. Less energy, less output. And sometimes that's a good thing.

1:34:21MojaveWell, it was interesting to see on this last trip, in the heat, A couple of different, well, not only were people shading out, you know, acres of cannabis, but there was another group that we went and visited in Santa Cruz on the way up. He's kind of a land-raised farmer guy, but he definitely had agreed that his shade garden, you know, when he first went into that spot, he's like, I got these beautiful redwoods here.

1:34:44MojaveI don't want to cut them down, but they're going to shade out my whole lower part of my whole crop. And he's like, all right, fuck it. I'll just keep them. And over the years, that was the better weed, you know. And it was shade, but it was shaded, you know, it was still blasting hot for six, seven hours of the day, and then dappled shade at certain points.

1:35:05MojaveSo yeah, you definitely can overwhelm plants. And that, you know, The low, I'll just say this, Brian, I have to say, there was definitely some strong weed back in the day. And those, but it was so far and few between that it made for a lot of the lore of how amazing the high was, where like, You encounter once every two years, maybe that boom experience that became the story that everyone told as if it happened every day.

1:35:37MojaveExactly.

1:35:38SpeakerYeah. Another thing you got to remember also, when we say strong weed, that's perceptual. That's not measured by a lab. We weren't measuring by blood back then.

1:35:46Mojave100%. I'm not saying THC percentage, but just the potency of cannabis was definitely pretty potent.

1:35:53SpeakerWell, I can remember in Thailand in the 70s, we used the Italian test. We'd take a stick and throw it against the wall as hard as we could. If it didn't stick, it didn't pass the Italian test. Yeah. I like that test. It was one of the things I learned when we were doing all that work in April. I mean, we grew a ton of DJ stuff and a lot of that had that kind of clear what people describe as like a soaring effect, right?

1:36:25SpeakerAnd all that stuff landed in the eight to 12% range. So there's nothing wrong with eight to 12% cannabis, right? Like it's like, you can't find it on the market today because people won't buy it. The distributors won't buy it because they don't think, and frankly, the customers, when they're looking at cannabis quality based on THC content, You know, like those 8 to 12 ones just don't cut it just on that metric alone.

1:36:50SpeakerIt's a real shame because I never tested one of my skunks that was over 17%. But people would smoke it and I'd give them something that was 25% next to it and they'd prove it's skunk. So, yeah. Well, and when you, when you, when you were smoking eight to 12s all the time, and then you came across a skunk, yeah, that would knock you on your ass, right?

1:37:21SpeakerBecause it's like, yeah, a lot of the stuff. What I'm saying, but even more than the amount of THC, it's the whole package, you know, the terpenes and stuff, because, uh, Yeah, I mean, you don't know how many people smoked my biceps, skunk number one. And they, you know, they told me they were in another world. I mean, it was really, really, really.

1:37:47BubblemanI know how many it was. All of them.

1:37:51SpeakerBut that's all I'm saying. And yeah, of course, that was dry sips. So it could have been 70, 80% THC, but it was the terpene THC because the... The buds themselves, I mean, 17% THC. That would be, like you say, a bud killer today. But it was good.

1:38:17MojaveI think the future for cannabis, as far as you can say real quick, Brian, the future for cannabis is low-potency weed because that's the only way people can grow more, for one. Everyone wants to grow weed now. It's like we've already maxed out how many milligrams of THC California can consume. It's like we can grow more weed and you can smoke more weed.

1:38:40SpeakerWhen people want dry sift or some other, you know, rosin or something more than herbal cannabis to be fire consumed. But whatever. I also believe everybody should get what they like with that. Well, look, there's no doubt. I mean, I had it the first time I smoked with you out of your blue pipe that I sent you that picture of the other day at the Cannabis Cup in like 2000 or 2001, whenever it was.

1:39:10SpeakerWhen you smoke something that's way more potent, you feel it. And Marcus, you can tell the story of people having to put pillows on the ground, right? Because of the amount of people that were just falling over when they'd come and hit bubble hash at the booth. But if you're smoking 8 to 12s all the time and you come across an 18, you're going to notice a difference, right?

1:39:32SpeakerBut, you know, on that, like I tried to talk about it the other day, or I don't know if I explained it very well when I came on the other day when I was in Amsterdam with David. Those, you know, if we're extracting 30% THC plants or plants that produce 30%, 35% cannabinoids, there's a different ratio between The total cannabinoid content and the total terpenoid content. Whereas if you drop down the 20, you know, even from like, call it from a 30% to a 15% cannabinoid or THC plant, THCA plant, but you still have maxed out terpenoids that are equal in both of those two varieties, the ratio of terpenoids and volatiles to THC is way higher on an extract of a lower potency plant, right?

1:40:22SpeakerSo that's what I was saying, like, For some people, you know, this kind of product or, well, you can't even see it, but this kind of product or like rosin or dabs, it's just too much, right? Like it's too strong for a lot of people. And, you know, if you can reduce the total cannabinoid content, I know there's people in the chat that are saying, what are you talking about?

1:40:44SpeakerIt's crazy to reduce the cannabinoid content. But it's kind of like... For them, maybe. Yeah, for them. But again, opening up cannabis to the whole population is about how many more people can we get to benefit from cannabis? Exactly. It's not about can we make cannabis better for the small amount of people that already use it. There's more people that can be benefited from using cannabis. So if we can open up products that are palatable or consumable for that extra segment of the population...

1:41:15SpeakerYou know, you're really expanding the market. It's exactly like the way with medical. You want there to be suppositories. You want there to be Rick Simpson's oil. You want there to be salves. You want there to be dabs. You want every delivery system that exists to help as many people as needed.

1:41:36BubblemanExactly. And I would tie into that, Sam, that for the rec market, there is a responsibility that goes beyond puffing with your homies versus turning people on for the first time. There's an etiquette that goes along with that. Personally, I love giving people micro dabs, but it's not the experience that I don't want to build their confidence overly either because I'll just put the smallest, tiniest amount where it's just mostly the flavor.

1:42:03BubblemanI want them to get past their fear because everyone has this sort of natural fear, like kind of, you know, a lower version of, hey, have you ever tried DMT? You know, it's like, whoa, wait a minute. So people have a bit of a, you know, especially the people that Ryan's referring to this when you're opening up the cannabis world to everyone that wants to, you know, at that certain age or whatever that wants to be able to have access to it or to try it.

1:42:29BubblemanThere's definitely an etiquette that goes along and very much why I did the hash hit product with the little bit of dry sifted hash in the tubes. Because I wanted to build a bridge for people who were smoking pre-rolled joints. I kind of wanted to give them a door that if they wanted to open, they could, which was a little bridge over where, you know, you could still buy like a pack.

1:42:52BubblemanIt looks like a pack of pre-rolled joints, but it's just little paper tubes with little bowls and a couple, like a 0.2 of a gram of hash. You get like 10 rips off of it. It's very mild. It's like 30, 32% THC. And but it's nice and it's pleasant. And that took me a long time to understand, Ryan, because I was so far up in the clouds of living this like, oh, you got to be smoking the 60 to 70 percent.

1:43:19SpeakerYou were all about refinement and making the quality and enlightening people about the benefits of the top quality. Right. And but all I'm saying is that we can make top quality products that don't rip people's face off. And, you know, this isn't even about a business thing. It's about like cannabis is beneficial for people's lives, especially in today's society that are like drinking shitloads of alcohol and doing all sorts of other things.

1:43:43SpeakerRight. Like and if those people can transition into a lifestyle where they're getting the benefits of cannabis. That's better for the world. It's better for society, right? And it's certainly better for cannabis, I think. Well, speaking of alcohol, have we made the alcohol? Let me finish, Mark. Do you mind? Just let me finish? Yeah, sure. Go ahead. It's like there's something to be said about creating products Thank you so much.

1:44:29Speakerlike if i'm trying to introduce like an older person that's never consumed cannabis into using it i can't pull out like the the 90 rosin right like you have to give them an experience and kind of meet them where they're at so well speaking of alcohol not to make the analogy lightly because i think we used to make this analogy you know if potency was was the seller you know liquor stores would sell one product and that's grain ethanol and you take it home and mix it with your Thank you.

1:45:00SpeakerThank you.

1:45:27SpeakerThank you for watching.

1:45:45SpeakerBut if I could steer this conversation in kind of like a slightly orthogonal direction, it's kind of, it speaks to also to branding and marketing, right? I mean, isn't branding and marketing just such an important thing? And it takes a lot of wind out of the industry today, I think. I mean, there's a lot of just attention paid towards celebrity endorsements and You know, brands and, you know, more lifestyle brands.

1:46:16SpeakerI mean, I always thought, you know, good cannabis sells itself. It doesn't need a celebrity rapper to say that. That's the cannabis that I use, right? I mean, just good cannabis will sell itself, just kind of like good microbrew. But wouldn't you think that, again, that somehow we would move beyond Just having to know what our favorite rapper smokes in order to make a purchase. And does that even really matter?

1:46:48SpeakerHow important is marketing and product placement in that whole potency argument? Because what I understand, some of the stuff that's branded, I won't throw any brands under the bus here, Is, you know, boof hemp with sprinkled THCA on it in their pre-rolls. And that way they can lower the cost.

1:47:11BubblemanWe only did that in 17 markets, Mark. I told you offline that you weren't going to bring this up. No, I'm totally joking.

1:47:18SpeakerSo, Marcus, the point is, and I love your concept of that product that you were just talking about, because to me, it's like you're getting the essence of the plant. You're still getting the artisan kind of, fact that yeah this has to be made i won't say by hand right uh but it's sort of made manually and so there's a connection between the people who are making these products and the products themselves but like like cookies just for example you know like you know i know yeah kids love wearing the cookies hat and cookie shirts and cookies is in style does that automatically Translate to they make a good quality cannabis product.

1:48:04SpeakerWell, it says so here on their label. It says, you know, what their testing results are, which are probably a COA of a COA of a COA of a COA. By the time you get through the supply chain to the consumer, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's so funny that a huge This portion of the THCA market in California goes towards adding THCA content into hemp pre-rolls.

1:48:34SpeakerAnd everyone's talking about pre-rolls because you walk into a dispenser and you're like, okay, I just want to smoke right away. So I'll just buy a pre-roll. Oh, it's got the cookies brand on it. So therefore, you know, I know cookies is good or just, it doesn't, I'm picking on cookies just as a brand, but how important Is celebrity endorsements and brands? Do you think? I mean, I don't think it is.

1:48:54SpeakerI don't think it is. I think and I think that that's people from the outside trying to. Commoditize cannabis like they do widgets. I won't smoke anything unless Snoop Dogg and Martha Stewart. Well, it's interesting that you mentioned Martha Stewart. So here's Juana, right, which is the biggest edible brand. I think in the business, right? I think they're owned by Canopy now, right? Didn't Canopy acquire Juana?

1:49:22SpeakerAnd now Juana has launched a series of Martha Stewart gummies. Now, Ryan, what you were talking about before was like winning some of this older senior population over while they know they're targeting those people with something they know. And it's interesting that you say cookies because if you look at the cookies brand experience, what it was, it was that good plant that came along that was kind of new, tied with Burner's identity at a time where he was coming up in the Cali scene and they branded it right.

1:49:55SpeakerAnd they did the clothing and the shirts were, you know, those hoodies, I have one, like they last forever. Like they actually used really good quality clothing when they developed that brand. Yeah, but they didn't do that. They hired somebody to do that. That's all. I know, but they spent the money. They spent the money. It wasn't just commoditizing something cheap, right? And they tied it all up together.

1:50:17SpeakerAnd it was one of the rare experiences where somebody has taken and developed a brand out of cannabis. What you're talking about And it's no less valid a strategy, but they're trying to take people like Martha Stewart that has her own brand and target that audience with trust. It's like, hey, look, Martha uses these or she's involved with these gummies. These are gummies that you can trust.

1:50:41SpeakerAnd those people don't want to buy gummies from Burner, right?

1:50:45Collin PalmerBut I can argue, so if I could just like, I just want to make a branding, from a branding perspective, because I spend a ton of time in that world. You know, it was really drilled in my head that you really in my younger world age as a as a designer that, you know, brand super important because that builds the familiarity of the familiarity, builds the consistency, that consistency builds the trust.

1:51:08Collin PalmerRight. And that's where whether or not you like it or not, that key component, those words I just said are all tied to emotion. Right. And people, when they see Martha to your point, Mark, they're like, yeah, I remember that. But that's a demographic specific thing.

1:51:24SpeakerCookies, whether we like it or not, built that familiarity and they drove it.

1:51:28Collin PalmerThey drove it to a place and yeah, they hired the right constituents and the right people to help them do it.

1:51:34SpeakerSo for years and years and years, I've been given a free breeding pair of skunks with each kilo of skunk seeds I sold. Look, because they had that plant that was new and unique, the cookies, it was kind of an OG, but it was like a little bit different chemical profile, but super dank. That was what made them cool, right? So they had the- Exactly.

1:51:55BubblemanAnd was that not Flux's work?

1:51:58Collin PalmerYes, that's from what I understand, that was Flux's work. I spent time on Zoom calls during the pandemic getting to know him, introduced by our good buddy, Dave. You know, so it's, I think that's important to say is that there is someone that's behind it. I just think he's had a hard time coming out of the woodwork talking about it.

1:52:22SpeakerIt was, again, it's more than the plant. That's what marketing always is. I think like, look, I've watched this happen over and over again in the Canadian marketplace. And very few companies have been able to capture the heart and mind of the consumers. Right. Like, you know, we were talking about Kip the other day, Marcus and the Victoria Cannabis Company. They've done a pretty good job because they've selected some some pretty nice cultivars and they've spoken authentically to the community.

1:52:51SpeakerRight. And I was I worked for a company that was trying to become a pub co years and years ago with Kip. And I sat in a meeting where we were talking about naming plant varieties and how to market some of these products. And these suits said to us straight up, oh, you guys aren't going to have anything to do with this. This is all going to be hired by an outside ad agency.

1:53:13SpeakerWe're going to follow a monkey see, monkey do strategy where if the other guy is doing it, then that's what we're going to do. Right. And it was like they essentially shut us down and we had all this indigenous knowledge. Right. And now Kip is essentially applying that knowledge over on Vancouver Island and absolutely killing it. Right. Because he's authentically speaking with knowledge to the consumer. And yeah, like.

1:53:40SpeakerAll these marketing guys come in from like widget companies and public companies outside the industry and they think cannabis is just another widget and it's all about the marketing and you're going to be able to market this into the hands of the consumers and you just can't.

1:53:54BubblemanYeah, they think they're going to get cannabis to bend the knee to them and I've seen it countless times. PepsiCo, Chief Marketing Officers, like all of these massive companies are And they come out and every time I try to give them the same advice, I'm like, listen, like, yes, you have all this experience. You've done all of this stuff, but cannabis is different and you're going to want to come at it differently and use it as an opportunity to take what you know and what you've learned in the world of marketing.

1:54:22BubblemanAnd do something completely outside of that box. Still use your skills where you can, but understand that cannabis is not going to bend the knee to you. You have to bend the knee to it. And so few of them are willing.

1:54:37SpeakerI will have to say after marijuana gets cannabis truly gets Thank you for joining us.

1:54:59Speakerpackaging and delivery companies that dominate the business uh i'm not saying they're gonna have the best i'm saying that's just the nature of american capitalism well and they do dominate the industry like i've been going into all these different dispensaries here in ontario and um it sucks like it's all corporate pubco crap right they because again they dominate the sales channels and price and Thank you for watching.

1:55:46Speakerof a brand here called Tilray or it was Afria but they've combined into one company now and it's big pubco crap garbage weed and man it was like the like i i took a hollow off of it without even realizing what it was and it was the most disgusting thing i've smoked in like 20 years they've had multiple recalls bad old weed um but because these guys have you know they've got it they've got it down and look you know mark Dr. Mark, you were talking about like hemp with THCA.

1:56:18SpeakerThis was no different than that product, right? Like it was plant fibers with THCA on it. And so for a, there's a price point consumer that they just don't care all the stuff, but that we care about, right? And about quality and whatever, it's getting high. I guess from my point of view, again, everyone knows it's no secret. I'm a big Grateful Dead guy. I grew up following the Grateful Dead around.

1:56:42SpeakerI started smoking good weed when I went to the Grateful Dead show, started smoking NorCal, started getting good, you know, good high quality tank buds. So I have this ultimate respect for the Grateful Dead culture and what they've contributed in musically. And then, you know, here I am, you know, all excited about, oh, Jerry Garcia is coming out or the Garcia family is coming out with a brand.

1:57:07SpeakerRight. And it's going to have Jerry's likeness on it. And, you know, everyone's going to want that jar because it's got Jerry's likeness on it. Right. But how disappointing. Thank you for watching.

1:57:34SpeakerThe music ended that brand, right? Because you're like, it's like, oh man, what's Trixie and the Garcia family thinking? This isn't, this is, they need to get a better grower. You know, maybe this thing sat on the California shelves for a year. They put another label on it and now it's in Illinois or something. Who knows? It just, it was kind of disappointing to me, but it's interesting that, you know, the Garcia family's done that.

1:57:58SpeakerI don't think the Grateful Dead Has done it yet, although I kind of remember a few years ago, them getting involved with some kind of cannabis grow. I know that the Garcia family now has a line of CBD wellness products, which I think are doing pretty, pretty well. But I know like the Garcia brand itself, I think they had to like close down some of their products.

1:58:23SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:58:41SpeakerAnd prices were getting crap, like really bad. And so I started doing canned weed. I bought a canner and started doing cans. And the only label that I had on the can was a little circular sticker with the word of the variety on it. And that went on the top of the can. And that and a specific type of can became the brand. Yeah. Because what was inside, like we took such absolute care.

1:59:05SpeakerI was like freaking out on trimmers that were mashing buds and like they were just treating it like this, some commercial outdoor crop. And I was like sending trimmers home. I was like, no, like if you can't learn how to do it, you gotta go. Like every bud that ends up in the can has to be perfect. And you know, the can became the brand because of what was inside.

1:59:27SpeakerIt had nothing to do with the branding. Right. So. Well, it did, though. I guess, you know, again, I'd argue like the Bob Marley brand, for example. I mean, you would assume Bob Marley. Oh, it's got to be really dank. And it's going to be like maybe Jamaican. The thing is, is that what we've seen is when these people get their names on a brand, it's not the Marley's or whatever.

1:59:52SpeakerOr the Grateful Dead that are taking that love and putting it into cannabis. It's some VC guy, right? Trying to make money. And so they end up making VC type choices like, you know, cheap, mass produced. You know, and it's like, well, it's the same thing like the drinks. When they first came out with the drinks and cannabis, it was kind of like, you stoners don't know how to take the drug that you're taking.

2:00:18SpeakerWe're going to show you what to do, right? We're going to come in and within a year, everybody's going to be drinking cannabis. People won't be smoking it. And what do you know, five, 10 years down the road, they're actually putting vitamins in gummies. Right? It's the opposite has happened, right? Like we figured out these delivery systems for a reason because they work. Some VC is not going to come along and tell us, oh, just put whatever weed in a jar that says Grateful Dead on it and all those stupid hippies are going to buy it.

2:00:48SpeakerWe'll take all their money, right? Exactly.

2:00:50Etienne FontanWell, they bought it once. They won't come back and buy it again. Exactly. Sorry, Marcus. This is something we saw because this is one reason why BPG was very successful before 2018 is because we had that same instilled thought in our weigh room. The people who weighed our cannabis, when I say weigh room, so people are aware, you know, and we always made sure that it was always the highest quality.

2:01:15Etienne FontanSo when I went to purchase anything, Thank you for watching.

2:01:38Etienne FontanAnd those VCs have very limited cash as opposed to burner really put money into cookies, cookies, brands, sustaining it where those others had very finite VC runs. And when they failed off their initial run and when people bought They're that first time they bought that weed, whatever it was, and then they realized it was average and mid at best. I mean, it's absolutely disappointing to the consumer.

2:02:04Etienne FontanAnd then we as the purchasers, we sit on that product and there's no comeback by value. So for people who are watching, just so you're aware, we have tried this for years. And I mean, the Marley started off right off the bat and others have tried to sustain a name, but Nobody has, as I've seen in the market, except for cookies. They're the kind of the outlaw.

2:02:28BubblemanWell, I will say this about that, that there is a lot of these companies, these big brands, they go about it the wrong way on how they approach The whole brand idea. And like for myself, I do it the opposite way. For Bubble Man brand, which is obviously a much smaller little brand, it's very sort of niche and specific, but it's always the same way. I put a call to action out for a state.

2:02:53BubblemanIt'll generally be some head hash maker guy that's been making hash for 15 to 20 years. He's watched every episode of Hash Church. He follows what's going on with us. And so at that point, I'm like, OK, this is the right person. And then then he'll bring, you know, I work at this facility and they're actually pretty cool people. And I've got the guy's ear. We can get right to him or her.

2:03:20BubblemanAnd, you know, then a couple of conversations will ensue and I'll be like, oh, Oh shit, that was a pretty cool person. Like I would have never met this person because they personally don't watch Hash Church. They don't know who I am for 15 to 20 years making bubble hash or whatever, but their their hash maker does. So I kind of came up with this little slogan.

2:03:38BubblemanI'm your hash makers hash maker. And that's how I lead into my brand. And that's how I kind of find the quality and the right people. It's very much using this show and everything I did before this show as the sort of thermometer to find the people. Oh, it hits that certain threshold. I'm like, this guy knows he he's been studying. Because I don't also want to sell myself or my brand.

2:04:04BubblemanI'd rather have the hash maker be like, no, you don't understand. Like this dude's got the hash hits and the pure hash joints and the this and the that's. That's how I do my brand. And I suspect the Grateful Dead could have very much tapped into some of that. Tapped into these passionate people that had religious experiences at these fucking shows over the course of 10, 20 and 30 plus years.

2:04:27BubblemanAnd that's how you find the people that lead you to the right grow in Vermont or Massachusetts or New Jersey. Because there's pockets of these incredibly cool people in every state. There's no doubt about that. Everywhere I've ever gone, I've bumped into these people that are cool, like similar music, have great weed. Like when Mark said, I got turned on to dank weed on the Grateful Dead lot.

2:04:53BubblemanLike that is where a lot of people got turned on to great weed on the Grateful Dead lot. And psychedelics. And great psychedelics as well. This is true.

2:05:06SpeakerIsn't it so cool to kind of see that come full circle in our lifetime, Marcus? Because at one time, if you got pulled over with weed and psychedelics, you'd go to jail, your life would be ruined. And now, you know, it really seems like there's a renaissance in psychedelics. And I don't know. If the Grateful Dead branded LSD, that they could do. Oh my God. On their little steal your face or dancing bear block.

2:05:34MojaveDon't make me tell you childhood stories. But... Hey, you guys, I just wanted, I wanted to tie something all together with everyone, what we're talking about with fast food, cannabis, gummies, branding, THCA, celebrity endorsements. And, you know, we've had a big thing here in California where all hemp derived THC is banned, but all even under 0.3%. Yeah. And Cheech and Chong is suing the state.

2:06:02SpeakerYeah.

2:06:05MojaveWhich I just love. And then on the other side, we got Rick DeSantis, the governor of Florida, who vetoed a bill against him because he wants to protect small business. So it's like, dude, our whole world is so flipped upside down. And, you know, yeah, it's gummies. It's... Cheech and Chong's Gummies, their cruise chews that they were selling all over the place. They're at the gas station.

2:06:29MojaveThey're at every head shop. And yeah, man, it's a real, we are in that fast food cannabis world now where it's the lowest common denominator. It's how many people can you hit? How big of a brand can you have? I mean, Stizzy is in all the head shops. They're all over across the country now. They're selling probably way more vape pens In the non-licensed market than they were before.

2:06:55SpeakerI don't know if you see this, Mojave, but a lot of those very successful cannabis brands are now putting a foot into the hemp space because, hey, they realize the hemp market is a much more larger addressable market. And I believe the numbers that I saw, these numbers are about a year old, but they estimated the intoxicating Hemp derived market being in excess of $52 billion. I believe that the latest numbers I saw in biz, MJ biz from the consolidated of all the state regulated cannabis markets, you might have a better number on this.

2:07:38SpeakerATN is somewhere north of 29 billion. So it's 52 billion against 29 billion. Guess who's got the larger war chest? Guess who's got, you know, Warehouse, who isn't paying taxes, pallet racks high of finished goods that are all ready to be shipped. And like I've said many times on Hash Church, and they have got two clicks after saying you're 21 years old, they're asking for your credit card.

2:08:04SpeakerAnd they have no compliance costs. It's strictly a money grab. And it's strictly something that has really got our whole industry divided. There's a lot of people on each side of this issue who are not only suing each other, but they're actually putting out really negative... Look, as soon as the government federally legalizes, all that becomes an even playing board. It should. Ideally, it should. Look, there's no...

2:08:30SpeakerSo, hemp flower with THC acid on it is no different than cannabis. It's not. It's fucking dope.

2:08:37MojaveIt's the same thing, but that's the beauty of the marketing strategy when they finally figured out that no soccer mom could complain about a health problem or any public health issues because it was the same thing. It's like, oh, so then that's when the floodgates opened. Delta A was a big issue. Oh, my God, it's a new compound. But now, no, it is bigger. But here's the weird part, is that the licensed cannabis part, the $29 billion, is built off of a very solid or relatively solid supply chain, heavily, overly regulated.

2:09:11SpeakerOverly regulated, right.

2:09:12MojaveBut the $52 billion hemp is built off of the most, the weakest supply chain of dirty transactions of dirty weed grown in one state shipped here. No regulation. No regulation. So when they do federally regulate, when they federally legalize it and they look at that and go like, holy shit. And if the FDA and USDA really stepped in and said like, oh my God, this is built on thin ice.

2:09:38MojaveThen there's a chance for, You know, a new, a different playing field.

2:09:43SpeakerOh, it's not a new chance. It's inevitable. It's inevitable. Ryan, what's going on in Canada? What is Canada looking to do? What here we're doing in the U.S.? Is there two markets in Canada like there is here? Thank you for joining us.

2:10:12SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:10:34SpeakerAs Marcus has pointed out several times on Hash Church, the Canadian hemp industry all has to do with oil, seed, and fiber, which is what... And we're trying to chat. We're trying to change. I think the congressmen who signed off on the farm bill were snookered that that was good. They didn't realize there's drug variety, cannabinoid producing industrial hemp. I think they were snookered on oil, soap and rope and dope.

2:11:04SpeakerNot dope. Well, yeah, but again, like a federal legislation will start regulating the compounds, not the plant that it came from. Right. So like, it's insane that you guys have THC. Well, it's also hemp like that totally violates the spirit of the law. And it's just because the feds don't care enough to do anything about it. You know, but like the point that Mojave raised and ATN raised is really actually important here.

2:11:33Speaker52 billion versus 30 billion, okay? That 30 billion, think of what their compliance costs are to stay alive, right? Or their profit margins to stay alive, right? Right? Big Hemp is giving huge money to people like Ted Cruz. Like they're influencing those states through the way that the American government works, through money. Right? And unfortunately, the regulations kind of starve the, let's call them drug cannabis companies, right?

2:12:04SpeakerThat are legally compliant, that are legally state compliant, right? The people that are trying to actually make it work. Well, that happens here too in Canada.

2:12:13Etienne FontanThey get undermined here in Canada. Here's something that I've seen in America. Hold on for a second. Because of lack of regulation, which is a problem here in America, I know a guy, his son produces, is a brewer in Louisiana, and he was brewing alcoholic beer. And so he then started producing CBD drinks. And the only way to get them is to go through a distributor. And the distributor is like, okay, I'll deal with you.

2:12:42Etienne FontanSo now we've got industry taking advantage of small producers along the way due to no

2:12:57Etienne FontanThat sort of anti-competition situation shouldn't be allowed, but it's going to continue to fester to underlying people trying to break through in industry because there is no regulation. So this is where I see a misuse and abuse happening due to lack of regulation, too. A regular producer trying to enter the cannabis market, entering the cannabis market and then be stymied by the distribution system, which is we know when it comes to anything, it's all about that network of distribution from newspapers to anything.

2:13:36SpeakerSo, yeah, well, in Canada, the problem in Canada, the regulations have really worked in kind of a really bad way to like one of the reasons we don't have Thank you.

2:13:59SpeakerYeah.

2:13:59BubblemanThat's what I was going to speak to, Ryan, is that it's the same in Canada. We had a big medical thing. Everyone was able to kind of hide behind the med license and get a grow and do this and that. And once it actually became like federally legal for recreation, a ton of the companies that were producing drugs, All of these medical, for medical platforms in Canada just stopped overnight and just went right to the rec industry.

2:14:27BubblemanAnd so like my mom would be buying oils and there was like 18 to 20 different oil tinctures that she could buy from. And then suddenly there was like three and then suddenly there was one. And it was just like, I remember her being stressed out about it. And I remember watching how many patients in Canada I mean, Shoppers Drug Mart, for God's sakes, left cannabis after however many tens of millions of dollars invested to be the ones to prescribe medical cannabis.

2:14:53BubblemanDidn't work out for them. Somehow legalization here just undermined the medical patient in a massive way. So now they're all buying from dispensaries.

2:15:04SpeakerWell, again, it's because they regulated it as a pharmaceutical, right? And as soon as it was like, oh, you want cannabis to be really a medicine? Well, then you have to put in like 10 years worth of product trials and scientific trials and like, you know. Millions of dollars. When you can sell the product as a recreational product, Without doing any of that, why are you gonna spend the 10 years and millions, hundreds of millions of dollars through the research?

2:15:33SpeakerYou're not going to, right? Which is why the rec market has things like CBG. Why the hell do you need CBG in the rec market? Like that shit shouldn't be regulated, right? Like that's kind of the thing. And neither realiztically, neither, I mean, CBD is a little bit different because it actually, not because of its medical benefit that happens or doesn't happen, you can argue either way, Thank you so much for joining us.

2:16:20Collin PalmerYeah, really high doses. But people are taking high doses.

2:16:22SpeakerIf you take like a CBD gummy that just has a few milligrams on it, your liver is going to be just fine. No, but dude, the point is that people are taking hundreds of milligrams. Right. And that's the thing. When you're setting up regulations for safety in society, you have to take account for the most ignorant and dumbest people that don't know what the hell they're doing.

2:16:41SpeakerYeah, the guy who's going to drink the can of spray paint to get high, right? Well, it's not even that level of dumb. I mean, it's just like, hey, I'm taking these gummies. They seem to make me feel better, but they fuck up my heart. Have you seen America lately? Don't underestimate how stupid our country is, please. Oh, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. It does the same thing.

2:17:02SpeakerIt interferes with a lot of the same things that CBD interferes with.

2:17:10Collin PalmerYeah, most of these companies though, like Ryan, like in the States, like all of these multi-state operators and individuals that have, you know, developed a war chest, so to speak, are just looking at it from a way of getting around 280E and just trying to play it on the other side of the coin because it benefits them. There's like literally, of course, it's just like one lab test and it's like, it's C-Store mentality all the way through.

2:17:37Collin PalmerOh, I know. It's amazing how much after studying and auditing all of this stuff, specifically the Midwest, it's littered with this stuff. The shelves are just packed with junk. It's insane, but it sells like crazy. They're making money.

2:17:57SpeakerThat's kind of the thing in the States. It's like money talks. Right? So it doesn't matter where you get your, you know.

2:18:06MojaveAnd it's not just money. I mean, the reality is like, I know it's weird and it's strange to be in this upside down world, but I'm for whatever gets cannabis forward. Whatever moves it forward, however we get to the final whatever it is. And I don't think we know what that is. Right now we have this thing called the Farm Bill. It's very, it's a comprehensive thing.

2:18:28MojaveIt's let all these loopholes slip in. We've got a patchwork of regulations in dozens of states. You know, to me, this is all just like mixing the pot here. And we got schedule three happening at the same questioning. At the same time, we've got the farm bill happening, which is like diametrically opposed to each other. So it's like, I think that, and then what like California is stepping in, the fifth largest economy in the world, the world's biggest cannabis market, stepping in and saying, we're going to ban all THC, you know, to me, that's like, okay.

2:19:02MojaveWe really, we're really testing it, you know, and at the end of it, who knows, this is a temporary ban as well, right? Because they don't know what it means. Like I went to the head shops right away and asked them because they, I got a head shop right next to my favorite pizza joint. And I'm like, I see all the products are still on the shelf.

2:19:18MojaveThey're like, oh yeah, we're not moving anything. They don't have a budget to come in. They can't just start pulling stuff off the shelf off thousands of places. Where's, where are they going to get the money for that in the enforcement body? It's like they can't use the DCC. They can't use cannabis tax money, right? They can't. So it's like, dude, this is a clusterfuck. It's a clusterfuck.

2:19:39SpeakerIt's so interesting because ATN disappeared, but he went through this fight with the DEA where there was nothing but budget. And sure, there was less of them doing it then, but I mean, it must be so surreal for him to have gone through that experience and then to see the shit that's going on now. And look, I'm not saying regulation is going to solve anything. It certainly won't.

2:20:01SpeakerI think it'll make things worse. And so when you say, Mojave, about moving things forward and getting to the end, the next thing is not going to be the end. It's just going to be the new problem. Right?

2:20:14MojaveAbsolutely. It's elusive. It's highly elusive because it's a complicated plant and it's a complicated matter. But it is going to always end up being one thing, which is follow the money. Right?

2:20:25SpeakerWherever the money goes. What's your perspective on that? I mean, having had the DEA come after you and the federal budget, I mean, there was no shortage of money to come after you. To hear him say that there's no money to go after the thousands of people doing... It must just be so bizarre for you. That was like not even 20 years ago.

2:20:45Etienne FontanYeah. Yeah. Well, we well, history lesson. Just why you brought that up. I can give you the kind of the succinct. So Berkeley Patients Group, again, the name Berkeley Patients Group, the name Patients in the Name for Defense to going to federal court because there was no medical defense. So, yeah, we hired only activists because we expected to be arrested every single day. We were breaking California law.

2:21:15Etienne FontanWe were breaking federal law. But out of BPG, we created Americans for Safe Access. Americans for Safe Access created a law Called originally the Rohrabacher Amendment. And it was a rider, which is basically, it's added to a piece of legislation in the United States. It's called a rider, where it basically said that states that had medical marijuana, legal marijuana, medical marijuana systems going on, that the federal government could not spend money prosecuting them.

2:21:57Etienne FontanAnd that failed for eight years before it finally passed because over those eight years more states came online for medical cannabis. So what we had started and hoped for and why we always opened our doors was for momentum. We wanted Come look what we do. Take what we do. Go do what we do where you are. So enough of us were built up that the law finally passed.

2:22:28Etienne FontanSo when the federal government forcefully evicted us in 2012, right, for being within a thousand feet of a French school from property line to property line, if you walked it, it was over a thousand. After four years of fighting it in 2016, because now the Rohrabacher Amendment was now the Rohrabacher Blumenauer or now the Blumenauer Amendment, the government came to us and said, we can't go to court and fight you because this law states we cannot spend the money to send the prosecutors in to prosecute you in federal court.

2:23:08Etienne FontanSo therefore, We give up. We're giving you limited immunity. And that's when I pushed back and said, no, you're going to give me full immunity. And they did. And that's only because the inadvertent forethought of us creating an organization of activists, thanks to Don Duncan and Debbie Goldsberry and Steph Scherer, who we hired there. I remember hiring her at BPG. Thank you for watching.

2:23:54Etienne FontanAnd I already felt that I died in war. So, you know, anything that I did from past then on, I wasn't afraid of. And I've been in jail. It sucks. What the fuck ever? You know, I'll do my time, but we'll fight it in the courts so that everybody can have the right. And in time, enough of us did it and it happened. So, um,

2:24:18Etienne FontanIt's it's strange now to go through these many different fights to see the change that, you know, they went from absolutely hating us to now respecting us to now. I submitted to testify in December at the DEA's rescheduling petition. You know, that was these are. Yeah, I have to pinch myself. I feel like I'm living in a dream, but that's because we put our heads down, thought together, thought collectively, but thought of the big picture.

2:24:56Etienne FontanAnd inadvertently, I don't know, I sit back all the time and I'll just start to cry because I don't know how lucky I am to have ridden that. I feel again like the Forrest Gump of cannabis in a way, navigating this very Brian, you know, way through life and cannabis. And there's so many people to thank from my lawyer, Lara DeCaro and others who helped me all along the way.

2:25:27Etienne FontanYou know, it's yeah, we changed history. You know, we won the right for look inside voting machines all along the way just to get our business permit. It's it's yeah. I look forward and I love that we no longer have to hire activists. I love that people don't have to suffer the injustices. And soon, due to the rescheduling, 280 is going to go away. And that is something I've spent seven years fighting.

2:25:58Etienne FontanAnd I hopefully will wrap this up in the next couple of months and come out on top on that. So the corporate requires... So there's the difference. We have to fight 280E. I've had to spend millions of dollars and 21 years on lawyers and fights just to pioneer and be where we are now. And we're not where we wanted to be because we never expected, as Mojave said, we never expected to be here.

2:26:26Etienne FontanPeople are asking me because we turn 25 next month. They're like, so how does it feel? You knew you were going to be here in 25 years? No, I expected to be in jail and doing something else by now. I didn't expect that. Here's what we're looking at. You know, this was a pipe dream that we could, you know, hey, imagine we can go to a store and have multiple choices of cannabis to choose from and different modalities.

2:26:48Etienne FontanThat's fucking hilarious. Now it's a real, I mean, to a point in Canada, you can order it and it comes to you in the mail, you know, but I hope that someday you will get the opportunity like we have to visually and go select your cannabis again, as opposed to be reliant on, you know, Hopefully it's going to be good quality this time, right? You know, so it's a mix.

2:27:11Etienne FontanI don't know. Chimera, it's just been a humbling journey. So I kind of just sit back in awe because it's so surreal. We envision this. This is what Jack told us was a possibility. But Jack would absolutely, Herrera would be absolutely livid of where we are and yelling at us that you settled for bullshit. We're not where we need to be.

2:27:35SpeakerIt's again, it's about the next step is not going to be the final solution. There's tremendous political capital getting it to Canada, you know, legalized in Canada. And look, I've been doing this a long time too. Like in 1998 or 99, I was one of the signatories for the application to the federal marijuana party in Canada, right? Like I wasn't majorly involved with the group, but you know, Thank you so much for joining us.

2:28:18SpeakerRight. And there's there's there's a lot of changes that need to be made.

2:28:23MojaveWell, the one thing that I think is a clear shows a clear sign is that it's an international market now. And that's like I mean, just like we talk, we're talking about drugs and we're talking about plants and they're kind of two different things. But it's hard to move drugs around the world on an international basis. It's really easy to move plants around. So everyone around the world has to change their drug laws in order to create this real international cannabis market.

2:28:49MojaveIt's not even that hard. Like, Well, it's not that hard. But the reverberations of prohibition are so insane that there's countries out there that are looking to create a legal cannabis market while they still have people on death row. So it's like they're like literally like, well, you know, it works. It's once again, follow the money, follow what the political response is going to be. And then that's where you see it's headed.

2:29:18MojaveBut it is headed that way right now. And it's already there. So, I mean, and they're not, they're thriving large markets like Germany and Australia and the US and Canada that are like kind of leaders in the space. But eventually, you know, hundreds of other countries are going to come online. And that's when you really see this bigger picture cannabis thing start to unfold because it can't just happen in any one place.

2:29:43SpeakerNo, but it's going to be like, it's going to be, it's going to be Wrangler jeans though and Coca-Cola and like, you know, the iPhone, the cool stuff is going to come out of the States. It's just the way it is. Like Canada right now and Canadian growers are lucky that the American government can't get their shit together and legalize. And it's because there's 50 states and so many different interests and people having their say in the way that federal legalization is going to work out.

2:30:16SpeakerIt'll be big money for the American companies in America. But man, you guys are missing out on money in the international market.

2:30:23MojaveAnd California is missing out on all the other states and Canada and half of the world. I mean, we already have the genetics. We have the culture. We have the climate. We've got our agricultural infrastructure. We've got the workforce. It's kind of a no-brainer. There's a whole list of crops that we just dominate. And it should have just happened that way, not just for California to become bigger.

2:30:46SpeakerThe regulations are going to be something that's hard for the American growers to learn to deal with because you guys just don't have the same level of, I mean, you do for within state medical, but, you know, trying to export to Germany, like they want some serious EU GMP, like the whole facility has to be designed in a certain way.

2:31:06Collin PalmerI mean, I think we have that though, Ryan. I mean, all my facilities that I design are CGMP. Everything has those protocols. If it's not EUGMP, you can't get in.

2:31:17SpeakerSure. Everyone's have their own very strict thing. Like, trust me, dude. Like, it's not today.

2:31:23Collin PalmerWe did it with hemp, and I sold a lot to Switzerland, and we've, you know, we've worked under those circumstances is what I'm trying to get at, and I don't think it's as, it's not as big of a hurdle as I think it is.

2:31:35MojaveAnd that's just on the packaging and distribution side. Like you still, Portugal and Colombia are still growing cannabis and hoop houses and getting it EU GMP packed and sent around the world. That's a whole different thing. And what that even means, remember all that stuff is still reverberations of the prohibition. All the regulations on microbial count and all that stuff, The reason we zap weed and send it around the world is because we think cannabis is dangerous.

2:32:03MojaveAnd we set some protocols for the first shipments that came out of Canada to the Netherlands and stuff like that, like Bedrocan, all that stuff, zap the weed, 50 CFU caps on what's safe.

2:32:17BubblemanJesus.

2:32:18SpeakerI mean, that's, that's just, that's, that's, again, it's, it's not just like moving products around in the market. Like the products that are actually making money in Germany, like the growers that are getting paid to ship high end weed around the world. And actually getting paid, not just getting a buck a gram, like it's a whole nother level of quality, not in terms of what we consider quality in the community and like, you know, super dank, really nice, consistent flour, but also managing those All the regulatory compliance like CFU and bacterial counts and total yeast and mold or whatever, all that stuff.

2:33:05SpeakerIt's not so easy. And you're not just taking stuff off the field in California and putting that into a German market and getting six bucks a gram. Again, these people are selective. So it's just like Marcus's brand. It's funny that Bubble Bags is a specialty brand. It's also funny that that $50 million... Our $50 billion hemp-derived market also doesn't affect Marcus's brand, right? Because those people aren't buying in.

2:33:34SpeakerMaybe he'll be able to sell them some hash hits one day, right? And they'll up their quality and learn that they're not just smoking THC on a bunch of cellulose, which is really what that hemp THC flower is. I think that, I think that word is hilarious. I mean, drug cannabis is THC flour, each THC flour, right? I mean, so I don't know how that applies to hemp and not drug cannabis.

2:33:59SpeakerLike that's quite a industrial hemp. I mean, let's, let's be honest. It's the, the reason recreational cannabis can't compete a bit is Really just over-regulation and the fact that industrial hemp gets away with pretty much no regulation. Right, but it's not even industrial hemp. These are type 3 drug cultivars. Straight up. Right?

2:34:29BubblemanThey're just manipulating the farm bill.

2:34:32Collin PalmerYeah.

2:34:33BubblemanThat's why the one thing...

2:34:35Collin PalmerThis is really what we got to watch out for. The Cole Memo needs to change for everything else to really change. And that's what really we've got to see. That's that's a big signifier. If that changes, then we have real change. But I don't know how you feel, Mark, but I don't think Mojave, I don't think it's going to change much. I don't know.

2:34:52MojaveWell, I don't know. I don't know either. I mean, that's a pretty old document right now. But the one thing that could easily change, which would be like really simple to completely upend the THCA world is the early harvest window. That's the only thing that makes it work. If you had to have a COA of the harvested flower, three passes. The only way it works is they get a 30-day window before it's harvested, I mean, on a 55-day plant to get a 0.3 or below.

2:35:28MojaveAnd so they could change that and then they could functionally keep THCA in the supply chain. They could say, hey, it's safe as long as you produce it legit from a legit source, from a license, yada, yada, yada. They could keep things as is and let those brands continue and let it all happen. Because to me, that early harvest window is the only way that you could cry foul and say they're cheating.

2:35:53SpeakerWell, also, not be ambiguous about THCA and account for the entire THC by doing a decarboxylated test, right? So right now, you know, you have to dig into the CFR and the CFR. That's behind the Farm Bill, which CFR stands for the Code of Federal Regulations, states implicitly that you must account for total THC in the plant, which includes THCA. Because, by the way, THCA is 87% THC, right?

2:36:30SpeakerSo, I mean, that creates this nebulous sort of loophole that I guess these folks are exploiting. And like we've said plenty of times, high THC cannabis is cannabis. It's drug variety, whether type one, type two, who gives a fuck? If you have enough THC in there, people are growing it and humans are breeding it so they can get high. People want to get high. I think Congress, again, I'll say it again, was snookered on Thank you for watching.

2:37:15MojaveBut the point I'm trying to make is that we don't, do we really want them to create more restrictive rules on THCA? No, no. I don't.

2:37:23BubblemanWhat we want, what we want to do is we want to dislike the fact that it's undermining the legal business in the medical world. We hate that. But what we like about it is that it's just, it's just like a virus. It's everywhere. It's at gas stations. It's like the ultimate dream, just making cannabis available everywhere. So that part I really like about it. But, you know, unfortunately, both those parts are of the same.

2:37:47BubblemanIs Delta-8 truly cannabis?

2:37:51SpeakerTo me, it's not. It's synthesized from CBD. It's a degradation product.

2:37:57BubblemanBut I'm not just talking about Delta-8. There are people who are doing this. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:38:26BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

2:38:47BubblemanFor your right to get a license. Now it's not the ideal thing, but now you're trying to protect the license and you can't just go out and fight the powers that be anymore. You'll lose your license and your investment in the store. And so now the indigenous are the last of the activists. They're the ones because he's like, oh, they're allowed to advertise and they can sell more than 10 milligrams and they can, you know, there's no limits.

2:39:11BubblemanAnd they think he was just going off on all the different things that they were able to do. And I thought, dude, that's kind of what you want. Like you should support them to show the government, look how much this is undermining our business. It would be great if we had these same rules, if we were less regulated and we could enter the supply chain the way this group already is.

2:39:33BubblemanLegally, you see, it's really with these people. They're robots. It's all about documentation and language. And if you change a single word or you write it a specific way, it changes their reality.

2:39:49Collin PalmerYeah, we have a lot of, you know, challenges in the states because every state has a different CFU. What passes in California fails in New York, you know, and so on and so forth. So it's, and then everyone is going from market to market and it's just, it presents problematic SOPs and processes that people are trying to adapt to new markets. And A lot of times specifically on, you know, we've talked about Aspergillus a lot on the show.

2:40:23Collin PalmerIt's a problem because there's some bridles are more adept to taking in bacteria than others, you know, and having microbial flare ups, so to speak, throughout the life cycle of the grow. So it's identifying those things so we can actually get good herb to the market because it's one of the biggest challenges that I see a lot of these brands go through is they all want the same stuff, which is bizarre to me because That's just why there's so much color in the vernacular of cultivars or that why grow the same clone.

2:40:59Collin PalmerBut I also understand there's infrastructure problems with certain farms like they need clone houses. Right. But perhaps there's a better way forward for us to kind of talk about these things, because I think I'm struggling to see a lot of the material around New York as I put my product in the market and I feel lucky to have Thank you so much for joining us.

2:41:37Collin PalmerWe're environmental challenges that we're not able to overcome, but just coming from a basic human level, we just have to all kind of figure out how to grow better herb that's compliant in a regulated sense. Agriculture is hard. It's a very difficult task.

2:41:59SpeakerOr the fact that much of the addressable market in New York has got a guy. And they just buy it from the trap market, right? And they've been doing it for years. So why am I going to go to the dispensary and pay taxes and pay for that aquarium and pay for that couch and pay for that nice big neon sign? I don't have to pay for any of that.

2:42:19SpeakerI just go down to my guy. I've been going to him for a long time. You know, you got to give me a reason why to break out of my current buying, right?

2:42:27Collin PalmerYeah, well, every state has that problem in my experience. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, not saying like New York. Yeah, but like I think, because New York is a sponge right now. Actually, the numbers are insane from a regulated sense. You're like, wow, that's kind of insane. But like, I think it's just a problem because we don't have, like you said, like your guy is a better curator, so he has better...

2:42:48Collin PalmerThank you so much for joining us.

2:43:12Collin PalmerThe big companies in Germany right now, well, there's just so much money behind them. You know, it's why the limited licensing states in this country are doing such crazy numbers. It's like, well, look who's there. You know, it's most of these huge conglomerates. So, you know, it's really interesting, I think, from an agricultural perspective, where there's all this money being put into infrastructure that... I know, you know, Maave, that $600 to $700 a square foot doesn't add up.

2:43:44Collin PalmerLike, it just doesn't make sense.

2:43:47MojaveWell, not only that, is that, you know, like, one thing, like at this, the Cornell USDA field days that we were out there last month, and you see how there was such a heavy emphasis on grain and fiber, right? And, and they're like, like to the point where they're out in the field and they're got harvesters and they got the rep from the harvester company out there and they're like talking acres and blah, blah, blah.

2:44:10MojaveAnd I started to realize like, it's like, because drug cannabis isn't really agriculture like that.

2:44:16SpeakerYeah.

2:44:16MojaveIt's not a, it can never be a staple crop just because of the scalability doesn't, isn't there. There's, everyone wants to grow wheat all around the world in every country and everywhere, but we don't need that much drug cannabis acreage. But for fiber and seed, we need to blanket the whole world the way we do corn and wheat and rice, because it is a staple crop on scale.

2:44:39MojaveBut when I like, when we were driving through, driving through Sonoma the other day, and I was thinking, I was looking at a vineyard and I'm thinking like, Like if I were like as a wine consumer, if I was a solely, if I drank wine only, I could claim my chunk of that vineyard. Like, yeah, this is what my family consumes per year. But in the cannabis field, even as a massive consumer, I can't claim that big of a chunk.

2:45:05MojaveYou know what I mean? Because, you know, I don't smoke 30 kilos of weed a year, even as a big consumer.

2:45:13BubblemanBut when it comes to like- But if you turn that to three kilos of hash, Molly.

2:45:17MojaveYeah.

2:45:20MojaveExactly, dude. Exactly. So that's the whole thing. It's like, is it API? Like, what is the demand? In the hash, that's the beauty of it. The hash is the concentrated active ingredient.

2:45:33SpeakerLike, how much do you need? I wanted to tell everybody that I've started Your Guy International. The number is 555-5555. And I've got everything you want, and it costs nothing. I give it for free.

2:45:51BubblemanDamn, you heard it here on Hash Church. Give that a recall.

2:45:57MojaveSam, you did the calculations on what a global demand for cannabis would be, right? Yes.

2:46:04SpeakerWell, no, actually what I did was for California, I mean, excuse me, for America and for Canada together, whether they were buying bud or dry sift or water hash or oil. I put it all that in. And if I can't remember right, but the only number I can pick up right now is I think 96 square miles in California, which by the yearly supply for America and Canada.

2:46:43SpeakerWow. But that's not including fiber or seeds or various other things. It's just dope. Yeah, I wonder, like, if you compare that to commodity crops like corn, soybean, you know, sorghum, you know, like, is it orders of magnitude different, you think, Sam?

2:47:06MojaveOh, yeah. Thousands and thousands. I mean, you can drive through the Midwest for... You can drive from North Dakota through all of Minnesota and it feels like you just drove through corn.

2:47:17BubblemanYeah, but we're growing world's grain, right? Like, that's not all for our... You know, he's talking about 94 miles for that market of America and Canada. This corn market in Canada alone, and it's probably even bigger in the US, but in Canada alone, we have, oh my God. Yeah. Insane amounts of acreage. Yeah, it's unbelievable.

2:47:42MojaveSo there's no harvesters that'll be sold for like it's not an ag product the way those other things. So like the ag industry as we know it can never really be that part of drug type cannabis. It's more of a, it's a more of a pharmaceutical, you know, other side medicine, whatever, you know, in terms of world distribution, it'll never be, you know, that's why fiber and that's why fiber and seed are so important, which was refreshing to see, you know, that Cornell and USDA did Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:48:40SpeakerYou shouldn't be growing it. Well, I think they were caught with their pants down, not realizing that, yeah, you need barns and space to dry that hemp or else as soon as you harvest, you're up against the clock of microbial degradation. And they thought you could just, well, let's just super sack all that stuff and put it into a freezer, right? So, I mean, it didn't really work out too well for that.

2:49:07SpeakerBut yeah, I mean, I'll go back to something that I said on a recent Hash Church because we were talking about the grain issue and Marcus was talking about the oil, you know, hemp seed oil. Hemp seed oil is a very valuable oil. And I hate when I see these claims about, oh, hemp seed oil can be made into Thank you for watching.

2:49:50SpeakerSo, I mean, even if you think about our economy, I mean, Walmart's business model is predicated on cheap gasoline. And so is Amazon, right? Because they need vehicles to take stuff from their distribution center to fulfillment centers out to their retail channels. So I think, and we've said this many times on Hash Church, that I believe the commercial driver, and I think you agree, Marcus, is gonna be food.

2:50:24SpeakerIt's gonna be protein per acre. And when it comes down to it, hemp beats soybeans by I think about 3x. I think you could get 3x the amount of soluble protein per acre. So if you're just looking to maximize your acreage to generate protein, forget about what plant you're growing, you're going to go with the highest yielder, right? But Now, I mean, the infrastructure that you need to be able to take seed and press oil and make protein like you guys are doing.

2:51:01BubblemanI think pressing is a no-go. Pressing creates too much green oil. It shortens the lifespan. You'd want to defat it with like CO2 or some type of... Kind of like what you did with Indra's machine early on, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then you get like a pure white protein powder isolate that's like 70%, which was substantially higher at the time than what like the big company like Manitoba Harvest had.

2:51:26BubblemanTheirs was green and had a very short shelf life. And was 50%.

2:51:34SpeakerI didn't necessarily mean press. I meant kind of like the way that you guys had modeled it. Defatted. Defatted. But wouldn't you think that, again, if that infrastructure exists, the thing that you're up against now is the fact that Large industrial ag. So you're talking about Bungie, Cargill, Archer, Daniel Midland, and these huge multinational corporate agriculture. They're in bed with the chemical companies that have now bought seed companies that are genetically engineering seeds to be resistant to their chemicals.

2:52:08SpeakerWhy? Now they can sell more chemicals. That's like the Bears and the Syngenta and the Monsantos and the DuPonts. So the I guess the point is, is that when you see these fields of soybean, imagine if all those fields of soybean were hemp. And I'm not talking about drug variety, you know, CBD hemp. I'm talking about like when you're talking about markets. So I think ultimately food is going to be the driver because we need to feed more people with less arable land on planet Earth.

2:52:40BubblemanIt's definitely was the driver for hemp in Canada. And I think that's why Manitoba Harvest did so well within the sale of their company where they got almost $500 million for the company. Um, And it's still going. I see their products in all the grocery stores across Canada. It's a quality protein. There's not all proteins are produced to, you know, to have that three to one GLNA to GLA ratio that we need.

2:53:09BubblemanAnd hemp seems to do it.

2:53:11SpeakerI remember on Hash Church a number of years ago, we talked about, gee, wouldn't hemp seed make a great food for livestock, for poultry and for... Oh my goodness. And so now what they know is that chickens that are raised on hemp seed feed is a more healthier chicken, right? They're high in omegas.

2:53:35BubblemanThey're a healthier person.

2:53:38SpeakerYou know what? I think they're cheaper to produce too. So when you look at like these huge mega farms like Tyson and Purdue, I don't know if you've ever been on any of these livestock farms. They're gross. It's beyond, like when you go to the grocery store and you see packaged chicken or packaged chicken breast, you got to realize where these are coming from. And these large industrial farms are, You know, one of the practices that used to be involved, I'm going back maybe about 20 years, is they used to have to constipate the chickens because chicken shit is a real difficult thing to treat and waste.

2:54:19SpeakerSo if they constipate the chicken at the end of the chicken's life, they're literally full of shit.

2:54:27BubblemanThose places are nightmares. Those processing plants are nightmarish, hellish places. And, you know, I always wonder when we when I hear people say, well, we can't feed all the people on the earth. There's just too many people. And I'm like, well, how do we feed the 56 billion animals that we slaughter every year if we can't feed 8 billion people?

2:54:50SpeakerJust seems to be a strange disconnect that... Well, people just don't live on a diet of grass and rolled oats. So, I mean, yeah.

2:55:00BubblemanWell, we're not feeding these animals grass. We're feeding them grains. And people could certainly live off of these grains.

2:55:09SpeakerAbsolutely. I guess the point is, just to bring it back home, is that I think the driver ultimately for hemp Becoming the plant for producing protein per acre. When that basically takes off, maybe again, this will be years from now, Maybe it'll be, you know, sooner than we think. But I think that that's going to be the ultimate challenge. Everyone talks about hemp plastics and hemp this and hemp that.

2:55:38SpeakerYou know, I think that when all of that cellulose byproduct is now available, then you can start thinking, you know, what you can do with it. Hey, Marcus, can you allow me to take one digression for a minute? I, um... I met up with a friend last night who is the owner of a local dispensary and producer here in Vermont. They produce a real high quality product.

2:56:05SpeakerAnd she just came out with a thing. You're going to love this, Marcus. The Runaway Jim Pre-Roll. We all know Runaway Jim is a favorite song of our favorite band from Vermont who will go unmentioned. But not too long ago, the founder of Magic Man, a good friend of mine named Meredith Man, became fast friends with a young woman named Pam who had recently moved to Burlington, Vermont.

2:56:33SpeakerShe jumped... Into the scene with a lot of joy. And, you know, again, Burlington, Vermont is the home of one of our favorite bands. I won't mention the name of the band. But we quickly became friends and fans of the band. And they hung out until the wee morning hours and all kinds of different parties and whatnot. And as life moved forward, Pam fell in love with a guy named Jim.

2:56:59SpeakerAnd Jim and Pam Introduced him to not only Meredith, and when we're talking him, it's a member of the band, but the local band that had blown up to play such large festivals as Madison Square Garden and The Sphere. And Jim loved going to those shows and the friendships continue to grow and grow beyond. You know, the whole scene and it was just such a great thing.

2:57:26SpeakerHe would dance at all these shows and just go to as many shows as he could possibly go to. Well, sadly, Jim was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, way too less to take on successful treatments. His story presses the need for funding for research in the detection of pancreatic cancer, especially early detection, because often with pancreatic cancer, by the time you find out it's taken hold, it could sometimes be too late.

2:57:57SpeakerAnd remember that the pancreas is one of those fatty tissues in your body. That again can store cannabinoids and can store cannabinoids like your brain for a long time because it stores in the fatty tissues. So in love and light and hope, They launched the Runaway Gym pre-roll to dedicate 100% of the proceeds of this pre-roll to benefit the Wings of Hope, which is a pancreatic cancer research foundation.

2:58:32SpeakerAnd so far, they've generated Thank you for joining us.

2:58:51SpeakerThank you for joining us.

2:59:20SpeakerJim's case maybe can spawn early detection of pancreatic cancer and keep people cancer free. So I just wanted to shout out Meredith Mann from Magic Man and Nick Mann. Hey, Meredith and Nick, I know you guys are watching. I think that this is one of the great things that the connection between the music and our culture and cannabis can really manifest something that benefits all of humanity.

2:59:48SpeakerAnyone who would get pancreatic cancer could potentially benefit from this. So I think we need to do We as an industry need to do more things like this to pay it forward and to say, okay, here's what cannabis can do. Now let's benefit society in maybe a way that was unanticipated, but I just love the connection and just wanted to shout them out today on church today.

3:00:12SpeakerThank you, Marcus.

3:00:14BubblemanYeah, of course. I love it. Always happy to share good vibes with the listeners about things like that. Runaway Jim. I had my own Runaway Jim. We all had a runaway gym if you followed the band around for long enough. And we met ours in Vancouver when we were driving from Nelson to Vancouver. I was with the Holy Smokes guys, Paul DeFeliz and Dustin Sunflower. And I think Alan Middlemiss was there as well.

3:00:39BubblemanAnd we were driving my buddy's little car I feel like we broke down multiple times on this trip. I definitely know that at the end of it, we were on a flatbed truck sitting in his car, getting brought to Vancouver because the car, the brakes had seized onto the back... Tire area and it was just the he you know it was a whole nightmare but we got to my buddies in Vancouver and he called his buddy Jim who was a mechanic and Jim was just this classic mechanic it was summertime he's got these little shorts on the whole time he's working on the cars his balls are just hanging right out the hole of the shorts like We're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

3:01:23BubblemanWe're going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today.

3:01:45BubblemanIt was just classic. It was one of those special moments that you only get to have if you go on the adventures of life. And that's what youth is for. When we are eager to make decisions that might not be the best decisions, we find ourselves creating the pathway that will follow for the rest of our lives. It really defines us as people when we're younger and willing to take extreme chances and just be like, yeah, I'll go.

3:02:11BubblemanSee some band for a bunch of weeks on the road in a bunch of states I've never been to while I like, you know, transport illegal contraband, psychedelics, hash, weed, you know? Yeah, I'll do that. What could go wrong, really?

3:02:30Etienne FontanEverything.

3:02:35Etienne FontanAnd along the life of journey we go.

3:02:37SpeakerYeah.

3:02:39Etienne FontanSo let's bong rip.

3:02:41BubblemanI'm actually heating my bong up right now. That's a wonderful idea. I think we'll hit some cereal milk.

3:02:48Etienne FontanWhat's everybody smoking on? Let's get it going in chat there.

3:02:51Collin PalmerIt's always fun to watch everybody pop off and see what are you smoking on? I'm out of here, Marcus. Have a good show, everyone. Thank you so much for having me. I'll see you next week.

3:03:01SpeakerBe safe out there, Colin.

3:03:03BubblemanTake it easy, Colin. See you next week.

3:03:06SpeakerI want to say, Marcus, I've said this before, that we We have the best chat on the internet. You know, the people in this chat are so wonderful. They're supportive. They just, they really, I love reading the chat as we sit here and talk because they're acting on our words in real time. It's just, it's so great to have a dedicated group of watchers like this and it really makes that church special.

3:03:37BubblemanYeah, no, I agree. They're an amazing group of people. We got over 300 of them in there right now. They've been with us for literally three hours and three minutes so far. So it's nice. Let's, let's finish it off nice and strong. I love the conversations. I love, you know, I have been using a little bit of the chat GPT when I have different, you know, things come up.

3:03:59BubblemanI'll, you know, I had created a bunch of questions earlier for, um, Skunk Man Sam and I just went and asked about asking deep thought provoking questions on various aspects of cannabis cultivation, processing, hash making and more. It's pretty surprising what it'll come up with some of the times just to fill in the blanks when the conversation is not flowing naturally and it there's a little bit of a hiccup.

3:04:25BubblemanIt's nice to have, you know, a question that can lead the conversation down a nice rabbit hole. Bong rip.

3:04:45BubblemanWell, that just tasted lovely. You're on mute, Mojave. We'd love to hear what you have to say, though.

3:04:50MojaveOh, I was saying, speaking of low potency, every time we talk, I seem to puff the same thing, which is this Cambodian that I got from Mel Frank a few years ago. It's lovely. Can't be more than 10 or 12% THC, but you could just smoke it all day. Lovely.

3:05:06BubblemanI reached out to him not too long ago on Instagram and invited him to come on Hash Church. If you hear from him or see him, let him know. Let anyone know that you guys think would be a good guest. I like the idea of having a core group and then having one or two guests each week that we can kind of reflect and have questions about.

3:05:25BubblemanMaybe I'd even send you guys who that person or people are going to be at the start of the week and you could come up with just a couple of... A couple of questions for their area of expertise. Next, I'm hoping Rick DeLisi is going to come on with his father, who spent, I don't know if it was 32 or 37 years in prison, some absolutely ungodly amount of time.

3:05:46BubblemanAnd I had no idea about this.

3:05:49SpeakerOh, go ahead, Mark. Marcus, along those lines, you know, it would be good to check in with Wendy and Colton. And, you know, recently I reached out to, remember, Jessica? The mom in Pittsburgh. Remember we had her on? Yes, yes, of course. Oh my God. We were all crying. Her daughter is still alive and doing well. I mean, this is literally 10 years later.

3:06:15BubblemanWe should do the 10 year update on her.

3:06:18SpeakerAbsolutely. I'd love to see Colton again. I think Colton is doing well, right? Does anyone know?

3:06:24BubblemanIt sounds like it. I follow Wendy on a bunch of social media. So she's always posting about, I think she just posted some new accolades and successes of her daughter. And it looks like, I know he was sick for a little bit. He ended up in the hospital.

3:06:40Etienne FontanYeah, he was sick for a blip, but it seems to have righted itself and they seem to have normalized, which is all we can help with, right? Yeah.

3:06:50SpeakerForrest and Forrest's son. I know Marcus.

3:06:53BubblemanDude, I just reached out to Forrest the other day because I brought him up while talking with Wade and he also said to say hello to everyone and I'll have to go into that chat because he did reach out to me.

3:07:06SpeakerYeah, I mean, I've used hash church episodes where we've had these discussions around sick children to point moms and dads of other sick children to say, look, this is not just anecdotal anymore. There's something really. Thank you for joining us.

3:07:39SpeakerSteven Moawad, M.D. : Was a little bit more or his staff was a little bit more educated to these particular cases, maybe there wouldn't be an outright hemp ban in California that's going to basically remove medicine from people like wade who need this and and the other ridiculous thing here is that you know. Steven Moawad, M.D. : There are lawsuits now and and you know who benefits from lawsuits.

3:08:06SpeakerAttorneys. So now a lot of attorneys are getting on this bandwagon and just sucking money out of the system. It just, it's terrible what's happening because if you're a parent like Wendy or like Jessica, and you know that this medicine is not curing your child, but it's giving your child a better life, there shouldn't be any government regulation anywhere to keep that medicine from that child, period.

3:08:36BubblemanYeah, exactly. Well, that was the can that got opened, Pandora's box that they couldn't put it. That really was the, I remember that as being sort of the last leg of prohibition. Little kids having epileptic seizures and stuff. And this one with the skin, you know, falling and bruising, like just like the most heart wrenching shit ever. It wouldn't matter if it was the most like illegal thing in the world.

3:09:04BubblemanIf it worked and it was safe, we'd be like, yeah, that's the kids can have that now. It's like if kids need that, then we can we can get it to them. Those were powerful days, those patient stories and the Caladrius Network.

3:09:19SpeakerThat's right.

3:09:20BubblemanYou know, all of these different folks. It was powerful stuff for sure. I agree.

3:09:24SpeakerAnd the world owes it to Wade, right? I mean, Wade, you've brought comfort to sick people. And now it's time for us to bring comfort to Wade, to make this full circle.

3:09:37BubblemanAgreed. I love that.

3:09:42WadeThank you. Just to be clear, I feel like because of the compassion program at our local dispensary, I'm fortunate enough to have.

3:09:53BubblemanHey, Wade, I hate to interrupt you. Can you take, yeah, can you take your, you sound so much better when you take them off and you don't say a lot. So when you do say it, I want to hear it clearly.

3:10:03SpeakerOh, much better. Okay. I'm fortunate enough, our local dispensary has a compassion program that's pretty vigorous. And like anyone else that has a recommendation from their physician, I'm able to get the products I need at no cost through that dispensary. That's Elevation. And the other one is Grass Valley Provisions also has a program like that. And so I have to say that, yeah, in talking about the Caladrius Network, for example, and the children who were seizing and still are, just to be clear, this isn't a problem that's gone away.

3:10:56SpeakerMany of those families had access to Epidiolex, for example, an FDA approved drug by CBD, supposed to be the right stuff for seizures. But what we found again and again is the families that had found versions of cannabis that gave them relief from their child's seizures We're getting relief often at 150 to 300 milligrams total cannabinoids, CBD, NTHC mixture, depending on their child's needs and whatnot. But meantime, those families who were trying Epidiolex were not seeing as good of results at 10 times that dose.

3:11:42SpeakerAnd we've already spoken briefly here today about the challenges of high dose CBD and its impact on liver metabolism. But... Yeah, I spoke to Forrest not too long ago. Silas is doing okay. For the first time in more than two years, he had started having mild seizures again. So there's some concern there. And we're working to try and find something that will work as well as what we used to have.

3:12:16SpeakerAnd I got to say, you know, on the hemp thing, on the one hand, it's a tragedy that these products are not going to be available to the families that need them. Because again, I'm fortunate enough to be well provided for here in Nevada County. But all across California, that's not the case. All across this country, that's not the case. And, oh.

3:12:44SpeakerI'm just going to stop there. I'm feeling pretty tuckered. I just want you all to know I'm well supplied with oils that I use to make tinctures. And I feel like I'm a very fortunate man in so many different ways. And access to high quality products is one of them.

3:13:09SpeakerSo thank you, Mark, for calling that out. I just want to say that I am fortunate and many, many, many people are not so fortunate. And that's a real tragedy about prohibition. To reemphasize something that was already said here, the need hasn't gone away and access to this plant should be. It's a no brainer. I mean, it doesn't cause harm. And it literally can and does save lives.

3:13:41SpeakerWe need to fix this whole situation to make it to Sam's model, where anyone who wants cannabis for whatever reason could have as much of it as they want anytime they want. And I'm sorry if I butchered your slogan there, Sam, but... No, no, the only thing I would add is everywhere.

3:14:00WadeYeah.

3:14:06BubblemanYeah, well said, Wade. Always appreciate your words here on Hash Church. And, oh, did I miss my rip or did I have my rip? No, I must have had it. Wow. I don't even remember it.

3:14:18Etienne FontanShort-term memory, what? I watched you rip it. Dude, my pipe's over there.

3:14:23BubblemanMy banger's clean. I don't remember hitting it at all. That is frightening.

3:14:30Etienne FontanShort-term memory loss.

3:14:35Etienne FontanYou witnessed it here in Ashfish, ladies and gentlemen. Good job, Mayor Marquez. Way for showing science our science.

3:14:43SpeakerYeah, some people get the munchies when they get high. I forget that I'm hungry.

3:14:49BubblemanTrue. I'm just booking Jody. I guess it was Jody Emery, but what is it now? Jody Van... Dee Drees, I don't even know her full name.

3:15:01GmlThat's terrible of me.

3:15:02BubblemanBut I just booked her for a couple Sundays in advance. She's going to come on and share some things in regards to what she's been doing with her activism and her calendar. I do remember doing that. I remember that part. Dude, I guess when you can't remember your dab, does that mean you need another one or you don't need another one? Okay, Wade first said yes, so I'm going to go with that.

3:15:28BubblemanWade says, no, no, you need another one. You know, I've had points in my life, only ever happened once when I broke my Cossacks and I couldn't smoke cannabis. It like exasperated the pain in my core in such a terrible way. I'd never experienced it. It terrified me as someone who smoked, you know, extracts from morning, noon till night every day, pretty chronically. And it was the smallest amount I smoked in my entire like puffing, Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:16:22BubblemanIt was, there was a reason why I sort of told that story. I guess now with the broken collarbone, I've been quite enjoying dabbing heavy again, getting into this sort of heavy dab space. But it did make me feel for people who don't like dabbing and who have, I would have never believed it if I didn't experience it. But the smallest dab can set you off in an anxiety zone if you have the right things going on to...

3:16:48BubblemanFor that to occur perfectly, and it certainly was like that with me for a short period of time.

3:16:54Etienne FontanTitrate to your level. Titrate to your level. If you did not feel that you are there, then go where you need to be, right? Everybody's titration level is different. And if you're a heavy dab user, your level gets higher, right? But that makes me wonder. So, you know, we know that as going to what you were talking about, Wade, that we acclimate to genetics, right? And after a certain amount of time and this medicine that Silas was given specifically, at least that formulation that seemed to work for so many years.

3:17:33Etienne FontanOf course, we also know Silas is a growing child. So I had childhood epilepsy. So I grew out of it. I was fortunate to where they said when I got to a certain age, I grew out of it. I used to just pass out. I did not have the severity that he had. But, you know, I do remember running across the schoolyard as a kid and blanking out and then waking up with my face all road rash from running my face into the ground.

3:18:04Etienne FontanBut I was fortunate to grow out of it. Whereas it seems where he is, it was around my nine to 10 years old. I had grown out of it. And it seems he's past that time. And we know that the body does adapt to certain titration levels of cannabis over time, 30 days. Usually in his case, it seemed to last for years. So I know that they're trying different formulations.

3:18:30Etienne FontanSo that just got to thinking about human chemistry, the need for diversity to find similar phenotypes to the chemovars that work for us specifically. And then how regionally do we arrive at that, right? Because here in California, we don't, We don't publish terpenes and the terpene profiles, right? In other states, it's mandated. It's volunteer. There are companies doing it here in California, but in places like Pennsylvania, it's mandatory.

3:19:05Etienne FontanAll of the top eight to 10 are listed, right? So it brings across still the problem of the inconsistency across the 10th Amendment realities we all face. And patients getting the medicine, especially in this extreme case where a special blend needs to be concocted for potentially, you know, modification of self-modulation through modification, right? Or am I off on that concept or thought, Wade?

3:19:43WadeNo, I'm not a scientist or a doctor, but my experience and work.

3:19:55Etienne FontanThank you. Hold on. Can't hear you yet.

3:20:10SpeakerSo can you hear me now?

3:20:12Etienne FontanYeah, perfect.

3:20:17Etienne FontanYou hit mute. You hit mute when you did that.

3:20:22SpeakerNot a doctor or a scientist.

3:20:24Etienne FontanThere you go.

3:20:25SpeakerMy experience suggests that yes, for optimal seizure control, it really is very specific to the needs of the child. And the process that we always went through was we'd start off with things that we had found good results from in the past with other children. And sometimes we were fortunate enough to be able to have a child on the farm. Thank you for joining us.

3:21:12SpeakerAnd they're getting THC at levels where a lot of adults would feel the anxiety and fear associated with an overdose. And these kids are totally chill. They're comfortable. They're at ease, which suggests to me that their body needs that level of cannabinoids. That there's no one size fits all in epilepsy. And I would suggest that there's no one size fits all for any of the medical conditions that, for example, Todd McCorea pointed to as responding to cannabis early on in his work.

3:21:51SpeakerYeah, that's all I got. Thank you.

3:21:55Etienne FontanAlways wise words. Thank you.

3:22:00BubblemanI've got the banger heating up in the universal heater next to me here.

3:22:08BubblemanTime for a couple more rips. Ryan Lee's back in the house. We noticed you were gone for a little bit, Ryan. People were really appreciating your earlier conversation in the chat room.

3:22:20SpeakerThank you. Sorry, I just split. Friends having a flood here, so. Jesus. Yeah, shout out to North Carolina.

3:22:29Etienne FontanYeah, that's, I've known growers in Boone and that western part, and they're wonderful, beautiful people through there and great growers. And yeah, if you look back in the last hundred years, my friend Michael Kraut showed, of course, he loves facts. He showed that the biggest rainfall was 26 inches back then, that in the last hundred years, that was the highest it had gone. It went 27 feet.

3:23:03Etienne FontanThey said the equivalent of Lake Tahoe fell on North Carolina. I saw some of the rivers going by people's houses. The Americans, you're going to love this one, or the equivalent of 51,000 Dallas Cowboys stadiums filled with water, they said, or Lake Tahoe. That's how much water fell on them.

3:23:30BubblemanDamn. Well, sorry to hear that.

3:23:33Etienne FontanOur hearts go out to them and all the workers. They're still, I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's bad. It's ugly. And Florida is getting ready, unfortunately, for another one that's coming right in their path that just hit category one on our broadcast. So in its head, don't they get it all the time?

3:23:51BubblemanIsn't this just like an everyday thing for Florida? Like,

3:23:56Etienne FontanNot at this, well, you know.

3:23:58SpeakerWell, Florida, Florida is one thing because it's coastal, but you're talking about the mountains of North Carolina. This is sort of similar.

3:24:06BubblemanNo, I know that was insane. I just feel like it's, there's always a hurricane. There's always something approaching Florida, if I'm mistaken.

3:24:14SpeakerYeah, kind of like similar to what happened in Vermont last year. And it's like a lot of these small little quaint Vermont towns have a river running through it, you know, and it doesn't take much water for those rivers to basically just overflow the banks and completely flood these towns. I'm certain it's the same thing that happened.

3:24:34BubblemanWell, I want to talk about my theories on flat earth and weather modification. I'd like to just take a couple hours of your time this Sunday afternoon.

3:24:46SpeakerThose tornadoes, not tornadoes, those hurricanes, when they get up the East Coast, even like New York and the Maritime Provinces, they're still carrying a lot of water. So those guys in North Carolina are going to get hit a second time. Well, maybe maybe the vote voters of North Carolina should should support candidates who don't deny global climate change, global climate change. Right. Right. I mean, they're You know, I don't know.

3:25:13BubblemanI guess it's clearly it's clearly a scam. I saw Donald Trump speaking on it. Let me tell you all about it.

3:25:21Etienne FontanIt's rare that you see. I grew up from Louisiana, so I grew up seeing lots of hurricanes. It's been a weird season. It came on and came off, but it came on with a vengeance. The one that hit North Carolina. It did something very rare. It went right up the coastline of Florida, which is extremely rare. They usually shoot across in different areas at different angles. But because it had the coastline and the water was so warm, It sucked up so much water.

3:25:53Etienne FontanIf you look at the sheer size of it, it was a third larger than Katrina.

3:25:58SpeakerYeah.

3:25:59Etienne FontanAnd just sheer circumference. I read an article. It sucked up all that water. And it's just people are like, well, why did it go up there? Because that's how nature worked itself.

3:26:09SpeakerI read an article that said it was 50,000 Dallas Cowboys stadiums full or 591 days continuous water flow over Niagara Falls. So, I mean, that's like, yeah, those people are hurting. It's really sad.

3:26:32SpeakerBut like you said, Mark, I mean, it is, it's like, it's, this is climate change. The hotter, the hotter the air gets, the hotter the temperature gets in the water, more violent the storms. It's like the science knows this clearly. So it's crazy what we're doing.

3:26:47Etienne FontanIt's yelled at us for years and decades. Marcus, did you take the bong rip?

3:26:52BubblemanHoly shit. Did I ever? I totally remember that one.

3:26:55Etienne FontanAll right. Bong rip everybody. Number two, since I told him to please let me know when you're there.

3:27:01BubblemanI'm sorry. I just like suck that thing back, dude. It was the damn, it's the, it's the timer. It sings a little song and then it's like a Pavlovian response. I start drooling. I grab my, my pipe. I just start hitting it without even thinking. Slave to the machine.

3:27:19Etienne FontanSelf titrate to your level and level needed.

3:27:22BubblemanOh, I went way past that.

3:27:28BubblemanSometimes it's okay to go, to go past it.

3:27:33BubblemanI sure appreciate it anyway.

3:27:38BubblemanI've made friends with people who also have that one thing in common with me, literally, that they like to get so high, they're on the brink of highness. I can't even tell you how many friends I made over the years looking for the brink. I once hit the brink with my friend Reggie the Roddy, Al, in Winnipeg, on your C4 Chimera, some bubble hash we made together from that fucking C4 stuff, and I will never...

3:28:05BubblemanForget how much of an understanding I had of why you named it C4 when I got that. I think it might have been the highest I'd ever been up until that point.

3:28:16SpeakerI was so high. That was that white. I came out almost white. It was white.

3:28:21BubblemanIt was fucking white. Yeah. It was insanely strong. It surprised me. It surprised me literally like the way Sam's dry sift surprised me. And at that point in time, I feel like I was going, you would probably know better than me what year C4 came out in. Um, well, those ones were, well, and was that, was that a Shishkeberry cross? What was that?

3:28:48SpeakerShishkeberry and the same mother of the mental flaws. It's really, really, that was, that was the one that I gave to you the first time that I met Sam and that we put it in his bowl and blew his face, his eyebrows back. That was the thing. That was when I learned about what I call the bubble tell. It's like if the eyebrows go up when the person hits the ball, you know.

3:29:12SpeakerDude, I'm telling you. And it was the full dome and lovely flavor.

3:29:18BubblemanIt's on that top shelf, right? It was certainly an experience, I'll tell you that much. I'm certain if you had stuff like that and you got it into like patient R&Ds, it would be like endless help that that... Because I know how much cannabis helps patients and different... But I also feel like there's something to do with the way we are so, whether you want to call it sensory science or that we're just heads, that we strive for this like ultimate expression and processment of that expression that it stays all the way to the end.

3:29:54BubblemanI feel like that's the ultimate medicine, that that's the stuff we should be doing R&D with, not anything less. But that's just me.

3:30:03SpeakerI kept a thousand of all those seed lines, at least a thousand of all those seed lines, so. It's really one of the things I'm just waiting for is the proper space to be able to just grow those all out and do a really nice selection from it. Because again, it's just, it's one of those lines that produces really nice resin, really nice resin.

3:30:20MojaveDo you know what I think would be really valuable for cannabis would be like a real like qualified sensory panel for like, Just cannabis, like as, as like a group, like a UL tested, like, cause like, like it happens in competitions and it happens privately with companies, but like a real, you know, like, like the way perfumers use the nose, but it's like so much more complicated with weed.

3:30:47MojaveLike there's so many layers to it. Like just a real, like a body of like 12. Major heads that are just...

3:30:57BubblemanI feel like Nick Ziegler could put that together. Because the conversations I've had with him about sensory science and the depth in which he takes it. I mean, the first thing he told me was like, well, first you have to find... Thank you so much for joining us.

3:31:38Etienne FontanThere's two that I know of, at least in the U.S. There's the Buttist and Gangier's are trying to do like us. What is it with wine? Somalier's. So there's Gangier's where you go through a course of. Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman, Andrew Berman,

3:32:14MojaveWell, like the abstract study that they did on sulfur compounds, you know, they're calling it canna-sulfur or canna-tropical sulfur compounds and stuff. They had to have a sensory panel to validate their assumptions. Because it is a product that we consume, right? So no matter what their analytics show, it's about how people respond to it. Do you agree that because we found this, it now smells this way?

3:32:45MojaveAnd that's relatively easy to do with the nose. But then if you bring in all the other aspects of the effect, which are really the bigger picture part of cannabis, then it becomes even way more complicated. But I think it's really...

3:33:02Etienne FontanRight, because it's subjective, right?

3:33:04MojaveIt's totally subjective, exactly. But there are some commonalities, like Marcus said, like, you know, dabbing high terpene lean varieties are pretty much most people react a certain way to it.

3:33:16SpeakerAlso, not only can there be slightly different effects in each different subject or individual who tries it, they may well have different preferences. You know, some people love limelings, some like linaloo, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Blind spots.

3:33:39BubblemanI like them all.

3:33:43SpeakerYeah, I mean, if you look at Abstract's latest paper, it is mostly driven by the sensory panel response that they did among their, I think, 30 some odd participants. So there is truth to what you're saying, Mojave, because they are not only doing the analytical chemistry. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:34:32SpeakerYou know, Fragrome, if you will, right? Not just the terpenes, but all the other things that are in there at a much, much lower concentration.

3:34:45MojaveMe and Rob went down and visited their lab a couple weeks ago, and they're awesome, man. They're awesome guys. They're really doing really cool, fun stuff, having a great time exploring cannabis. And it's just interesting because it is an aroma landscape that we live in now where aroma kind of does drive And, you know, that is how people purchase and consume more than anything. So understanding that aroma, but, you know, and also understanding the bigger picture of aroma.

3:35:17MojaveAnd, you know, I mean, to me, I've probably said it every time we've been on church is the Indole thing just trips the hell out of me. I now smell it everywhere. Yeah. I knew it was I knew it was in there like I knew I had this one bar that was just really strong and this DMT smell and I'm like ah how come this smells like DMT just driving me crazy yeah someday someday you'll see the graphical representation they'll show little they'll show a lilac plant

3:35:48SpeakerRight. They'll show Citral. They'll show a lemon. Right. Valencian. They'll show an orange. Frescato. They'll show the pile of shit.

3:35:56MojavePile of shit.

3:35:57SpeakerRight. Because it's basic. And we always thought, you know, it's like, man, did somebody just step in dog shit or did they open up a bag of really fragrant weed? So I think for years we assumed that there's got to be some sulfur containing compounds in there because it just it had that Thank you so much for joining us.

3:36:34SpeakerBut yeah, I think... It smells like burnt plastic, burnt metal.

3:36:39MojaveYeah. The place to smell it that everyone... The real trigger was... Because I read Richard Strassman wrote somewhere years and years ago that he thought that the smell of DMT was indole. And that was the only, that was the only thing. So I've been on thinking that there was Indole in one variety for a long time or something that smelled like DMT. But then when they said, I don't know who it was that posted, it was like, oh, well, we've all been smelling Indole.

3:37:05MojaveGo smell your Clonex. I was like, oh shit. And I just took one with a clonex. I'm like, I've been smelling that in cannabis and I've been smelling it in my clonex for years. And now I'm like, now my brain made that mental thing, that map. So now when I smell fresh flower or whatever, I'm smelling that same thing. And I'm like, boom. And then the next thing is like, okay, well, we know it's in there.

3:37:32MojaveNow, what does it do? And is there any entourage effect associated with all these other fun new things that we're finding? And Indole, obviously, the relationship with tryptamines and whatnot is super compelling just on a... Narrative alone.

3:37:49SpeakerI asked Ian the last time I spoke with him, you know, I said, yeah, so you guys are really are really down in the weeds here because you're really you're down below percentages. You're down where you really need specialized chemical instrumentation to not only detect, but to quantify these materials. And so I asked him about the haze, you know, because I think we've talked about it before, right?

3:38:12SpeakerLike that, that, that haze smell is very different, especially like after you like hot box in a room with a fatty a haze, it's almost like a cigar, right? Mojave, it leaves kind of like,

3:38:32SpeakerSo what is that? It doesn't smell like an indole. I don't think it's the gassy sulfur compounds. There's something in haze that's got that. I don't even know how to describe it. Almost like a spicy kind of smell to it, right? The spicy haze, right? Smells like home.

3:38:53MojaveSmells like mama.

3:38:58SpeakerI think we've talked, Marcus, we've talked about the spiciness of the haze or the essence of the haze before. I thought, again, that would be just another thing for those guys at Abstract to go chase.

3:39:12MojaveWell, they definitely segregated terpenylene from everything else in the exotic class when they're looking at things. It definitely is an outlier in many ways in cannabis.

3:39:27BubblemanYou know, finding some of those other compounds require like fine tuning and specializing your equipment. Because I remember when when Nick was on, when he worked at Yakima Chief Hops and he discovered, I don't know, like fourteen hundred different styles. That were present in hops. He required like it was a specialized piece of I think it was a multitude of pieces of equipment that he kind of was putting together in order to perceive at this insane level that that the files were at.

3:40:00BubblemanBut yeah, it's a special detector.

3:40:03SpeakerIt's a special detector that costs a whole lot of money that most cannabis labs that are doing testing and terpene profiling just don't have access to. So I think, you know, we've said this before because I remember Sam talking about thiols. We don't know whether the thiols actually potentiate the activity of the cannabinoids. Like the terpenes do. But you got to think that it's not just the terpenes alone.

3:40:30SpeakerIt's not just the thiols, but it's some combination of them. And I think the terpenes are at an order of magnitude, maybe two orders of magnitude higher than these thiols. So the thiols kind of like flavor the terpenes in a way that, you know, is very unique to cannabis. Yeah, there's a whole bunch of volatiles. There's the esters, the alcohols. It just keeps going and going.

3:40:56BubblemanYeah. Lucky us. It's like Terrence McKenna once said, how come the deeper you go, the bigger it gets?

3:41:08SpeakerYeah, the other thing these guys are doing too is, I mean, they were concentrating rosin, right? Like they were taking selection plants and making rosin out of them and then analyzing the rosin. So they're essentially concentrating those volatiles to get a reading. That's another big complicated. So if you're screening a thousand plants, I mean, it's hard enough to collect a bud to send to the lab to have to individually extract them, right?

3:41:33SpeakerAnd then send those extracts to the lab. It's just, it's not doable. And what's the thermal degradation that's happening in the boson making process that's either boiling away all your lights or maybe somehow- In the least esterification of terpenes.

3:41:51MojaveYeah, it's the product. It's the product that's being analyzed, not the plant is really, I think, one of the reasons why rosin was a choice because they're looking at... What the cannabis market is, and also just the way for them to isolate the most, you know, the biggest bang. But yeah, that's definitely something to do.

3:42:10SpeakerI'm not criticizing the method. I'm just saying it's difficult from a breeding perspective to add that into your sampling method, right?

3:42:17MojaveExactly. And we're working on that. We'll definitely change, you know, I mean, I think that's part of the whole thing is that, you know, get more, get more data, more data, more data, you know. But yeah, it's interesting stuff and it's exciting to me. You know, that's one of the few things over the past couple of years that's just been super exciting. So cool time to be doing cool research in cannabis.

3:42:41MojaveAnd hops, too. That's a real crossover. It's like, oh man, you guys are doing hops and cannabis and, you know.

3:42:47SpeakerThey hopped over to cannabis. Did you see that paper I put up on my Instagram today? They found genes associated with... You know how when males flower in cannabis, when you're growing out males, they trigger earlier than females do? Right? You've probably already seen that. Anyway, they found genes associated with that that are located on the Y chromosome, or at least differences on the genes between the Y and the X chromosomes.

3:43:14SpeakerAnd so anyway, it's an added thing that we can breed for now, or we can use those markers to breed for. If you wanted to change the timing of the pollen release in a given line to either, you know, maybe you want to like, you could probably increase yields by like delaying that triggering time on male plants so that the females are actually bulking up and they have a lot more, they have a lot more pistolet matter at the time of dehiscence for the pollen, right?

3:43:43SpeakerSo when the male plants are releasing the pollen, the females have got a chance to get bigger, equals more seed yield. Or like you could, you know, you can delay the timing so the harvest of the fibers is more at the same time. Because that's always been a problem with hemp, right? You get the males kind of rotting in the field while the females are finishing. So if you can delay that time in the male plants, then you can...

3:44:09SpeakerYou know, you can kind of coordinate things a little better. It's neat, right? It's just, again, every week there's something new where we're learning about the genetics of the plants and how we can apply it in a breeding strategy to make cannabis more useful or suitable for our use. It's pretty awesome.

3:44:24BubblemanIt's kind of like we're just like capturing little diamonds here and there in regards to just how many there are that we're missing.

3:44:33SpeakerYeah, well, we haven't had these tools, right? I mean, Sam's, the paper that they did associated with cannabinoid inheritance that was done at Sam's place in Horter Farm, that was published in 2003, right? So, I mean, sure, it's 20 years ago. It seems like a long time. But man, when that came out, that was like so cutting edge and new. It was like, holy crap, we can...

3:44:58SpeakerWe can essentially custom breed any variety that's either high THC or to be high THC. We've been testing for terpenoids and other volatiles quite extensively the last couple of decades, but they started in the 60s doing stuff like that. It's just nobody understood that the terpenes had the ability to modulate or potentiate THC. Yeah. And they weren't quantifying the terpenes back then too, right? Like that's the other difference.

3:45:32SpeakerThey're saying, Hey, all this stuff is in there, but we don't know the quantification. It was actually Mark and, um, Mark and Matt Giese's method that was the first one to quantify. I remember being at a ICRS conference and speaking with a couple of really serious chemists that have done a lot of work with Meshulam. And I was telling them about our method and how we quantified and bred, you know, these plants.

3:45:55SpeakerAnd they were like, what do you mean? You've quantified all these different terpenes? He's like, how did you quantify so many different terpenes, right? So that was, you know, that in itself was only 10 years ago. Right. And so really, I mean, man, we're making strides and bounds at this point in time.

3:46:12MojaveRyan, have you seen this Chris who used to work at Compound? Not Chris Compound, but another Chris. I can't remember his name. Flavor of Science is his Instagram. He claims to have successfully harvested F6 seeds from my Japanese hops times purple star plant. Check out how the calyx opens to present the super seed. Interesting. I'm excited to continue working with this interspecific hybrid. He's claiming to have crop made across.

3:46:41MojaveHe's got pictures of the flower. He's got seeds.

3:46:47SpeakerI'm not doubting him. You know me. I'm skeptic until the end. Until I see the data, I'd love to see some secrets. I saw the picture. It did not look like cannabis. I'd love to see some secrets. I understand it's a hybrid, but it does not look like cannabis. The genomics would tell the story, right? Of course.

3:47:04MojaveYeah, well, he's a, yeah, I can't, yeah, anyway, he said he documented the process. I know we've been, everyone's been on him. So let me give him a couple days.

3:47:12SpeakerIt's great, the process is what it is, but I mean, again, the proof is in the DNA, right? So put up a DNA test that shows that it's got cannabis DNA and POPs DNA, and I'm stoked for him.

3:47:23MojaveExactly. So.

3:47:25SpeakerThat's awesome. That's what he's done, and it's actually happened. That's fantastic for him.

3:47:30MojaveWe've met, we've done panels together. He seems like a pretty solid dude. So he seems like the kind of guy who wouldn't put it out there if he didn't have it to back up. But yeah. We should get him on Hash Church.

3:47:42SpeakerLet's get that sample. Is he scientifically trained? I got DNA cannabis people that'll take that sample and analyze it. Let's do it.

3:47:52SpeakerIt just adds credence to his claim, right? So if it is what it is, then hell, man.

3:47:59MojaveI would guess it's already been done. So it's really whether he's holding, whether this is just something he threw out because he wants to get everyone all excited about it and talk about it for a while. It's Instagram. Okay. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, come on. He's a plant breeder. He's a plant breeder. You know, he should have already. Right.

3:48:17SpeakerSo anyway, that was all scientific literature, which would be able to measure up based on what's been done. Right.

3:48:25MojaveBecause the pictures on Instagram happened a couple years ago too. And there's a similar thing where a guy's like, yeah, I crossed cannabis and hops. And then everyone's like, all right, show me the proof. And womp, womp.

3:48:38SpeakerI'm not trying to criticize the guy like I really know if anybody can that have done this I'd say because again you can say I crossed these two things it doesn't mean that that's what ended up in the seed right it just might be a weird variant of the hops thing who knows I'm not saying that it's not like I'm not kind of calling the guy a liar I'm just saying if he did something true then shit you should put up some evidence that really supports your claim Because if it is true... And the clearest evidence is that the genetics are truly hybrid and they contain chromosomes from both species.

3:49:11SpeakerEasy peasy. Easy peasy. Yeah, bingo. Hey, I got to jump, y'all. It was great.

3:49:19BubblemanA great episode, Marcus. Right on, Dr. Mark. Yeah, we're going to bounce in about 11 minutes, the rest of us. So have a good rest of your Sunday and we'll see you next week.

3:49:29SpeakerAll right. Great to talk with you, Ryan. Good to see you again, buddy. Take care, Mark. See everybody else. Take care, everybody.

3:49:38SpeakerYeah, I mean, if it is what it is with that interspecific hybrid, I mean, shit, I want to know about back crosses too, right? Like, can we vary the amount of hops that are in the cannabis genome? Isn't that one in the photo you talk about an F6? That's what he said. Is it F6 or is he selfing? It's probably selfing if it's the hops. No, he says it's an F6.

3:50:08SpeakerSo he's doing male to female for... I have no idea.

3:50:13MojaveFlavor of science. He's got some, there's some comments. There's not a lot of comments, but I haven't... Marijuana Botany made a couple comments.

3:50:23SpeakerThat guy.

3:50:24MojaveThat must have been a first. No, it's exciting. It's fun.

3:50:32SpeakerWe tried for quite a while to accomplish that, but we weren't using transgenetic methods. We were just trying to pollinate hemp to Uh, hops and hops to hemp and unsuccessful. We tried several species of hops, but we had no luck at all. Zero. Oh, it's flavor spelt the wrong way. I get it.

3:51:03SpeakerNow I found them.

3:51:10SpeakerInteresting. What a weird looking plant. Yeah, it does look kind of hoppy, like kind of cannabis-y. Weird. It looks more hoppy to me. It does. It's also variegated.

3:51:20MojaveIt looks just like my Colombian I'm growing outside right now.

3:51:28Etienne FontanSomebody asked if you still had the white plant still.

3:51:34MojaveYeah, this is it. This was actually taken about a week ago. One of the buds is just totally white.

3:51:43Etienne FontanGot tore up.

3:51:44MojaveYeah, and it's getting bigger. But it's getting hit by, I didn't spray BT fast enough before we left town. And the budworms, my backyard gets just inundated with budworms. There's no other plants around me. All my neighbors have like astroturf grass and like dirt and stuff. And we've got a lot of vegetables and stuff. We get a crazy amount of moths and butterflies.

3:52:09BubblemanDid any of you guys follow or speak to that guy that's doing this? Plant Hops Cross thing. Yeah, I know. I know you should. You should invite him on Hash Church maybe next week.

3:52:22MojaveYep. I'll ask him if he wants to for sure.

3:52:24BubblemanOr the week after the week after that. But this is happening right now. We might as well cover it. And then Ryan can say it right to him and be like, hey, man, why don't you have a DNA test? Like, I want to see the DNA test.

3:52:35SpeakerI just asked him. Nice. Again, I think, again, it's not criticizing the guy. I think it's amazing if it's true. So let's, let's put some data behind it.

3:52:48BubblemanI mean, honestly, it's as simple as that. It's crazy that you even have to defend the thing that is the thing that tells you if it's true or not.

3:52:59SpeakerYeah. It's the ultimate. You know what it's like. I mean, we had a conversation the other day about a certain character in this space. This space has always run on stories. And sometimes those stories can be verified. Right. That's just been the way of the cannabis world. And a good story sells, you know, it's like a picture tells a thousand words. And good science is always repeatable.

3:53:34SpeakerYeah, well, the science, we look, we learn shit through science, right? I mean, it's just a way of learning, like all this stuff we know about phials and esters and aldehydes and terpenes. Like, we learned every single bit about that through science. The terpene, the original terpene paper was a guy working at a university you miss, right? I mean, it's government funded, man. Right? Like, that was money that came from the taxpayer that taught us about the terpenes and cannabis, or at least put us down that pathway.

3:54:02SpeakerSo... It's science is good. It teaches us thing. I don't know why people are scared about science. It's just a it's a tool. I don't it's not something to be. I mean, yeah, you should always be skeptic of claims, right? Which is like I am with the hops cannabis thing. It's like, oh, did you really do this thing? That's remarkable. That's remarkable. Then, hey, show us some modus.

3:54:23Etienne FontanPeople are afraid of what they don't understand. You know this, you're a high thinker, but you know, we know there's more misinformation out there around, you know, a lot of things, but especially around cannabis that, you know, even, you know, how long did Rob's book come out, you know, you know, disregarding, you know, Indica, Sativa, and that still is a predominating, you know, dynamic still used by Leafly and others, you know, to this day, you know, so.

3:54:52Etienne FontanYou know, science is, marketing is apparently afraid of science and changing itself and, you know, that prolongs that ignorance. So we kind of do that in the cannabis industry here in at least America. We do dumb well.

3:55:14SpeakerIt's everywhere. It's not exclusively America. Mind you, this whole thing about trying to dissemble the Whatever it is, not ministry, but the Department of Education. It's insane. Certain higher-ups benefit from an uneducated population that way.

3:55:33BubblemanIt's... What was his quote when he started the whole school system? What was it? I want a nation of workers, not a nation of thinkers. Isn't that what he said when he started the...

3:55:51SpeakerWell, now you have AI that's going to come and do the thinking for a lot of people, and that's going to make a whole bunch of people just nothing but automatons. Oh, my God.

3:56:01Etienne FontanIdiocracy is now a documentary. It's no longer just a movie. It's now a way of life. Yeah, yeah.

3:56:09BubblemanDo you remember the shoes she used in Idiocracy?

3:56:12Etienne FontanThe first time Crocs ever appeared, yeah.

3:56:15BubblemanSo they weren't a big company. She was like, that company's going nowhere. Those look like idiot shoes. So she put it in Idiocracy. And now they're like a huge company. Like, it's all part of the story.

3:56:31BubblemanGetting our intelligence sapped out of us. There's a good book out there. I think I've mentioned it before. I think it's his like, Nahari, I think is his name. He did, the book's called Stolen Focus. And it's about how these like electronic devices can steal our focus, our children's focus. They're monetizing our focus, right? Wherever we put our eyes is this valuable space that they want to monetize.

3:56:59Etienne FontanThey just actually in California, right, Mojave? They just passed a law where there's no more cell phones in schools now, I guess.

3:57:10MojaveI didn't know that. Oh, yeah, all across Canada. Not in the school or on while in the school?

3:57:18Etienne FontanLook to the law as far as I'm getting. They're not going to allow them in classes and such.

3:57:23SpeakerIn Canada, they can't allow them in classes anymore.

3:57:28BubblemanThere's no reason to bring them. They definitely can't bring them into class, but there's no reason to bring them to class because you're not allowed on the phone, period. Which is great because I don't want my 10-year-old son having a cell phone. It's ridiculous.

3:57:41SpeakerYeah, but phones are really handy to look up the answers to quizzes you get.

3:57:49BubblemanHe can do that with his Apple Watch. I'm just joking. He doesn't have an Apple Watch.

3:57:55Etienne FontanIt's a limit. He signs the legislation to limit the use of smartphones during school hours. To restrict these on campuses, sign Assembly Bill 3216, the Phone Free School Act, to require every school, district, charter school, and county office of education to adopt a policy limiting or prohibiting The use of smartphones, July 1, 2026. So there you go.

3:58:22SpeakerGet your last year in there, kids. Oh, dude. In a nutshell.

3:58:26MojaveThese kids are partying, man. They are. They're a party. You know, at my daughter's middle school, all the dudes show up in the morning on electronic bikes. Right? Like a sea of them, like a, like a Hell's Angels biker club. They're all cutting across the streets and driving on the sidewalks and they're going like 35 miles an hour. They're like 10, 11 year old kids, dude. Maybe the oldest is like 14, you know, 13.

3:58:53MojaveAnd I'm just like, damn, you guys are having fun going, you know, God knows what else.

3:59:00SpeakerYeah, exactly. Yeah. Hunter S. Thompson propagating the biker lifestyle.

3:59:06BubblemanYeah, man. I can attest I have a 10-year-old son and he has the most fun out of anyone I know anywhere that I go. He is having fun right now. I can guarantee it. He just loves having fun and he figures out a way to do it in every aspect of everything that he does. So shout out to Tanner for being fun. Great philosophy. If he can keep that going through life.

3:59:33BubblemanI'm telling you, he's less stressed and less anxious because of it, that's for sure.

3:59:37SpeakerAnd hey, you're doing the same thing. I mean, he takes after his dad. You turn making hash and teaching people about hash into a brand and a way of life, right? Absolutely. You kind of set the symbol for him, didn't you?

3:59:53BubblemanI guess I sort of did, you know, I guess I sort of did it. That's what we do as fathers. We set the stage in whatever way it's going to work out. And I think with him, it'll be quite good. And it's been good with my other two as well. Love my kids, obviously. But I wanted to thank everyone for coming out. That was a four hour wrap right there.

4:00:13BubblemanI want to thank Ryan for coming out and dropping knowledge as always. Good to hear you bounce things off with Skunk Man Sam and super pleasure, Wade, for you to come on and share some time with us and just be here with us and share some good words with us. I always appreciate you. It's nice to see you again, Mojave, and maybe we'll get that guy invited in with the hops across and we'll see what we can go deeper down that rabbit hole.

4:00:40BubblemanEtienne, always a pleasure, my friend. Superly appreciate you. I want to thank Thomas from Grandmaster LED for coming in and dropping the LED knowledge earlier. And Colin from Vessel Life Sciences, obviously. And anyone else I'm forgetting. Hopefully we'll see Jodi. I want to call her Jodi Emery, but I know she's not Jodi Emery anymore. I'm going to have to fix that and figure that out. But thanks everyone for watching.

4:01:05BubblemanAs always, we'll be back next week with another episode of Hash Church 5.0 and we'll see how deep we can go. Until then, I would just say, may the full melt bless your bowl sooner than later. Peace out, everybody.

4:01:22BubblemanPeace.