Cannabis Regulation and Lab Testing Issues

0:06BubblemanOkay, let's see, we're going live here. Let's see, let's see.

0:45BubblemanAll right. Looks like we are live. Yes, we are. Welcome everybody to Hash Church 5.0. Episode three. I am just going to be letting some folks in here real quick. See what we got.

1:06BubblemanMr. Kevin.

1:08SpeakerWow, that's a beautiful shot. Marcus, how you doing?

1:18BubblemanHow you doing, Kevin?

1:19SpeakerGood. How about yourself?

1:22BubblemanHello, hello.

1:22SpeakerHello there.

1:24BubblemanCan't hear you. Maybe that's my fault. Let me check my audio real quick. Oh, yeah. That's my fault.

1:37BubblemanI have got my speaker set up to the wrong thing. Give me one second.

1:45BubblemanThere we go. There we go. Yes. Good day, sir. How are you? I'm doing good, man. Long time no see.

1:53SpeakerYeah. So how long was the Ash Church hiatus?

1:55BubblemanI didn't... You know, it was just under a year. All right. It was just under a year, you know, it's been, it's, it's, Ash Church, when it started, it was this unique sort of timeline where we were all so excited to, to really share everything we were doing. And then all of a sudden this legal system came into play and people became more protective of their IPs and of the things they were sharing.

2:18BubblemanAnd it just seemed like, Thank you for joining us.

2:43BubblemanYeah, exactly. So I think right now what's happened is the Zoom link changed and now I've got to send it out again to everyone. I just sent an email. There's Colin. Wonderful. Well, long time no see, dude. What have you been up to aside from testifying in front of the Senate and doing all this wild stuff you've been doing?

3:07SpeakerOh, yeah. We've been active on... I haven't taken our eye off the cannabis front, but it's just been... A little less vocal lately, so it's good to get on here. We'll share everything we're doing. Good to see you guys. The COVID stuff was a big deep dive, but it had to be done.

3:26BubblemanI appreciated it personally, you know, I particularly appreciate it. I had a really good conversation with my mother about it the other day in regards to, I just like the conversation to be open on both ends. That's all just a dialogue, not kind of stunting one side of the conversation. Just let people have the dialogue.

3:44SpeakerThey're very good at polarizing people. So that is their art. And unfortunately, it's certainly hit our field.

3:52BubblemanYeah, I was going to say, you must have been feeling it for sure. Yeah.

3:57Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, Kevin. How are you?

3:59SpeakerHey, Mark. How are you doing?

4:00Dr Mark ScialdoneGood.

4:01SpeakerSo we might be seeing you in Puerto Rico, huh?

4:04Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. Yeah. How crazy that that's going to intersect, right?

4:08SpeakerYeah. I didn't know you were down there. So you doing some work down in the island?

4:13Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. I consult with Pritch Biotech. They're the largest producer down there. And, you know, it's a limited market. It's only medical, you know.

4:27SpeakerYeah.

4:28Dr Mark ScialdoneLimited market. But, you know, it's, you know, what they say, they go down there and say, well, you guys want to become a state. And they're like, no, no, no, no. We like being a U.S. territory because there's all kinds of tax incentive to do manufacturing down there. And the pharmaceutical companies have been down there for, you know, 60 or 80 years. Like, you know, there's huge manufacturing facilities for everything from over-the-counter to injectables to everything and uh so there's these huge facilities there and the facility that they're in right there they used to make a leave or something it was old j and j facility but uh it's it's huge it's the largest indoor uh facility that i've i've ever seen um but um yeah i mean all the challenges of just being down there just like Supply chain issues and, you know, like they get hit when their hurricane comes in, it basically knocks out like power to half the island.

5:36Dr Mark ScialdoneSo they have their own substation like right there because they have so much power online and everything. But yeah, our guy, Giancarlo Spile is down there as their chief operating officer. And we connected Kevin with a guy named Sam Heinmars. Okay. Is that his name?

5:57SpeakerOh, Sam from, from MGC.

6:00Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. So he's going to, we're going to connect and make sure that there's, you know, facility tours and maybe, you know, I don't know. It's all, it's medical down there and they do reciprocate. So if you have like a, a patient license from a state, you can get stuff into Puerto Rico dispensaries. But yeah, it's wild.

6:23SpeakerWhat's their, is there a rec timeline on the Island? Are they,

6:26Dr Mark ScialdoneI think there is, but there's kind of like wanting to, you know, my buddy was telling me before I went down to Puerto Rico, he goes, yeah, it's just all wise guys and pirates down there. It's man, it's crazy. I mean, there's kind of been kind of like a, I would say a legacy market there for any drug you could possibly imagine. It's the Caribbean, man. I mean, it's like, it's all tourism dollars and, San Juan is beautiful and old San Juan is just absolutely just like, you know, just beautiful.

6:59Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, cobblestone streets, just empanada stands on the corner. I mean, it's just, it's just rich with, with that type of Mediterranean history and where you guys are having your gigs. So what we're talking about here is CanMed 2025, right? Am I right? 2025? Holy shit. We're a quarter of the way through the century. Canmed 2025 is going to be down in Puerto Rico. What's the name of the resort?

7:24Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's a Wyndham resort, right?

7:25SpeakerIt is, yeah. Yes, Wyndham. It's kind of out on the eastern end, northeastern end of the island. Right, right. Mark, I think Canmed is probably one of the best events that no one in our industry really focuses on, and they should, because of the impact they can make in terms of innovation and who's doing the real work. And I think that's one of the biggest takeaways that I've learned from what Kevin and his team's put together.

7:51SpeakerAnd, you know, I really need to get down there, Kevin, to participate with you. Rico's time, baby. Come on down. No, I missed my opportunity to create an abstract for you guys, but I think I'd like to do that in the future to really participate. Send one in for 25. I'm sure there's, I'm sure the window's still open. It's just, you know, life is happening around me, so it's only so much I can, only so many hours in a day.

8:17SpeakerBut yeah, I'd love to see Mark, you put together an abstract, to be honest, and speak on the work that you've been doing.

8:24Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, I mean, there's just so much to talk about. I mean, it's like, And that audience, I mean, Kevin, you remember, like, I came and talked there.

8:33SpeakerYou were at the first one, weren't you? I think you walked into Harvard Med School.

8:37Dr Mark ScialdoneI think it was 2017, right? Because you guys did 2016. And Mishulam came to that one, right? Was it? Yes. So Raffi just phoned in for mine because I don't think he was feeling well or he wasn't traveling. But you guys have had this connection with Raffi. You should talk about that, Kevin, because as you know, I mean, he inspired me and everything that I've done since I've been doing chemistry and cannabis is all just because being acquainted with everything that Rafi and all the researchers that came before Rafi, you know, like Adams and I just, everyone was fascinated in the chemistry of this plant.

9:22Dr Mark ScialdoneIt just didn't happen when Rafi came in. But, you know, To have that connection and for him to inspire new generations of scientists to get in. Like now when you go to the ICRS, it's mostly not phytocannabinoids. It's all endo, more endocannabinoid than phytocannabinoid. But I think the great thing about CanMed is it kind of brings the phyto and the endo communities together and looks for the obvious intersection, which is, is there therapeutic use and having people like Bonnie, And all those other doctors that you guys have signed up actually show real world results.

10:04Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, here is the tumor before. Here's the tumor after. Any questions? I mean, holy shit. You guys have had it at CanMed. And so I came there in 2017. That's when you guys were still doing this at Harvard Medical School, right? And... Held up a vial of HHC.

10:26SpeakerI told the group of medical doctors that I dabbed it. Oh my God.

10:30BubblemanThis won't trigger a piss test.

10:33Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat the fuck? And this was years before. So this was basically a year before the farm bill, right? And a year before the whole Delta 8 HHC alphabet soup of cannabinoids sort of exploded onto the scene. So man, just in a short period of time, we've seen a real big Transition in the industry and CanMed, you guys have been covering it all along. It's great, man. It's a great venue.

10:59SpeakerYeah, Rafi was, if there's one word to sum him up, it's generous. I mean, he just gave everyone time and he was not a divisive individual. You know, he'd listen to anybody and welcome anybody. So he was just a very unifying voice that will be sorely missed. So very, yeah, we're saddened by his departure. But yeah, that was interesting times. I mean, I remember your talk specifically because it was, you brought in that vial of HHC and showed it to everyone in the audience.

11:30SpeakerHHC, yeah. Yes, yeah. And only at Harvard Med School would that fly, right?

11:36Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, but I think it was kind of like the writing on the wall. And then the, you know, this hemp thing now, Is taking over the regulated cannabis markets, right? I mean, I don't know. Do you guys not see that? I mean, it seems like all these big multi-state operators now, like even Juana now has a hemp derived place. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, yeah, it's great.

12:07SpeakerI saved you something from a CBD dispensary. Let me see if you can see it. I thought you'd get a kick out of that.

12:14Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, I mean, and is that stuff safe to eat? I don't know. Who the fuck knows, right? Yeah.

12:25SpeakerI'm sure it didn't come from the flower, as Mark will tell you, but someone's been spraying it on.

12:32Dr Mark ScialdoneBut, you know, so how do you compete with an $8 vape pen at the gas station when the dispensary wants 40 or 50 bucks, right? You just, no, I, right? I mean, what the fuck? How do we fix this situation?

12:47SpeakerYeah, I think, Mark, I think it goes back to policy and the lack of understanding as to what these constituents and chemical compounds are actually doing to any single consumer at any given time. And based on the extraction method, as you've kind of blatantly and simply pointed out, we don't really have a clean... Fair way to show transparency through the whole process. And if it is transparency, you're showing all the dirt and you're showing all the bad that, you know, in disguise of good, right?

13:19SpeakerPeople are going in for wellness and coming out with different problems based off of chemistry that is bad chemistry, you know? And is it clean? And how are those constituents going to affect a human in 10 years?

13:32Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, let the plant do the chemistry and harvest the heads. I mean, my God. If everybody could have Cubans, White, Sift, Hash, we wouldn't need all these other, right? I mean, what the fuck, right? And it's kind of like, you know, again, I've said this a bunch of times, including on Hash Church, as long as there's prohibition anywhere, there'll be a black market everywhere. And so even look at just, just, I don't know.

14:00Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, the compression of margins along the supply chain Has basically weeded out like a lot of people who cannot compete with THC that's made an order of magnitude cheaper than you can grow it for. I mean, you just, there's no competition. You cannot compete it. It's a race to the bottom and in a commoditized market, price will always win. So it's fucked up. I don't know how we can get this changed.

14:32SpeakerIt's interesting. There's some interesting studies in California about pesticides that they're finding, right? So I think the LA Times study came out showing this. And I spoke to the journalist there. I think... Paige St. John is her name. And it's interesting that they did this study in Canada where they looked at 327 pesticides, which is a large panel for pesticides. So they're trying to capture pesticides that are outside of the demanded testing regimen.

15:01SpeakerAnd they found like 92% of the black market flower up there was laden with pesticides, sometimes a thousand times over the limits, and then only like 6% positivity in the tested market. Prior to Canada going legal, that number was more like 30%. So it looks like what's happening up there is that the actual legal market's going down because they're testing in terms of pesticides, but the black market's going up.

15:27SpeakerSo it's like the dumping ground for everything that fails. But when Page was doing this work in California, it's a bit different outcome. They're finding pens that are in the black market that don't have any pesticides, probably because they're chemically synthesized. And so it brings in a whole nother, you know, or they're synthetic cannabinoids, right? So it brings in a whole nother set of tests they got to look for on the black market pens to assess safety.

15:56SpeakerThey're sometimes finding THCP in them. They're finding all of these bizarre cannabinoids. And of course, since they're synthetic, they're not necessarily coming along with a high pesticide content.

16:08GmlI have to agree. I've just seen so much stuff in the legal market and transitioning from the black market and like stuff that I think a lot of people aren't even aware of it, that they even have it in there because it's systemically in their plant when their clones, when the clones that they got. And it's a big problem.

16:26SpeakerI agree. Yeah. Some of the times it'll work in the extraction too. I think Ethan Russo showed that, that some of these pesticides really... You know, you might go from 20 to 80% on the cannabinoids, but the pesticides can go from parts per million to parts per thousand. So the extraction process from flour is different. You know, I was under the impression most of the Delta-8 out there was made from almost crystalline CBD, which should be fairly pure.

16:50Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, that's right.

16:53SpeakerSo those pens, ironically, some of them are going to be cleaner than, I shouldn't say cleaner, they're less pesticide laden than what you might find in the legal market, but God knows what the hell's in them. They may not be Delta, it may not even be Delta A, they could be, you know, some of these.

17:09Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, yeah, Chris Hidalgo was like, Laughing at me, he was like saying, he goes, yeah, you look at like all this stuff that's being tested for pesticides and it came out of a chemical reaction vessel where there aren't pesticides and hopefully you're using, yeah, cheap CBD isolate that's pretty pure and if there are any trace amounts of pesticides in there, you hope that in the process of distillation or whatever purification process they're using, they're able to get rid of those things.

17:41Dr Mark ScialdoneBut I think the problem, I think, is bigger, which is that all this regulation that's required when you do licensed production of cannabis, so you have to have your, in some cases, even your business pro forma vetted by all these regulators in the state who want to make sure that you know how to run a profitable business, right? You have to do all kinds of community outreach.

18:09Dr Mark ScialdoneYou have to make sure that you're It is zoned correctly. You have to do FBI background checks. The hemp industry doesn't have to do any of this, right? They don't have to do it. All they have to do is basically take bulk biomass, produce ingredients, or just have like a warehouse that buys those ingredients until you can pull in, you know, all the the miners are all available in isolate form.

18:35Dr Mark ScialdoneSome of those are chemical synthesized, but Kevin, the The high CBG-A varieties that are out there right now have basically cratered the price of CBG-A isolate and CBG isolate. So you see a lot of, you know, just products with CBG in it, like seltzers, sodas, nummies, all kinds of stuff. So the hemp bill, remember that they didn't contemplate what was going to happen after the hemp was harvested because that should be regulated by the Food and Drug Administration, right?

19:10Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd you can't just put CBD into a food cosmetic because that's in violation of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, right? So they never contemplated the whole CBD business, let alone CBN, CBG, all the other alphabet soup. And now you have all these crazy molecules which don't come from CBD or hemp at all that are just being synthesized, right? Like HHCP and all that kind of shit.

19:38Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd now they're finding that THC acetate generates ketene when you heat it up on the nail. So just all kinds of crazy.

19:46SpeakerI think all of this regulatory overhead is theater at the moment because they're not policing it, right? That's right. Yep, so not at all. If they don't police it, then they're just putting, they're raising the price of the legal market next to the black market. And then all the businesses that are in the legal arena have like two hands tied behind their back. They can't write off their business expenses due to 280E.

20:08SpeakerThey have to build facilities in every state because they can't move product across state lines. I mean, it's just... They can't get banking, right? Like it's just a disaster for them economically, but they're collecting all of this tax stuff to float that side of the image of the regulatory market, but they're not running around policing any of the lab testing. So like if the lab testing is what's supposed to detect this stuff and differentiate it, I think we all as a community have to pound on them to get that data public and let the policing happen real time.

20:38SpeakerBecause right now what's happening, so I've been diving into this a little bit with lab shopping, and this is because of a talk at CanMet this year from Yasha Khan. He showed some data showing all the THC lab shopping and some data on yeast and mold lab shopping that's going on. And it's clear that a lot of states have this data showing that there are labs in states that like pass everything and they've been doing it for years and they don't act.

21:05SpeakerAnd so all the grows get painted into an economic corner and end up having to test with the labs that pass everything and give them higher THC numbers. And then all the legitimate labs like Chris's lab and others, you know, financially struggle and get squeezed out of the marketplace. So it's, yeah, Alex has a taste on this for sure.

21:24Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, speaking of lab.

21:27SpeakerGood morning, everybody. Good to see you. Yeah, likewise. Likewise. Well, thank you. Yeah, I just want to jump in. You know, we were part of the LA Times expose and it's incredibly revealing, obviously. And, you know, there's a bunch of things to kind of hit on there. I won't kind of go deep on it. But, you know, one thing I wanted to hit on kind of part of this conversation is, you know, when a state puts Uh, testing regulations in place that kind of essentially makes testing the final check in the integrity of the supply chain.

21:59SpeakerAnd if there's no integrity in that, because the state's not overly regulating and auditing the labs, then yeah, it creates these holes where everything goes through, you know, whether that's, you know, I mean, it's, it's been really sad, like, uh, up until, you know, I mean, California is sitting on their hand effectively and not doing anything, the regulators to actually enforce and ensure integrity and testing. Over a five-year period of legalization, it's all but destroyed the entire market and led to the extinction level event that a lot of small craft farmers and people have gone through.

22:33SpeakerBecause at a certain point, you know, there becomes an economic disincentive for people to want to work with a good lab that's going to give them accurate and quality repeatable data because they can just chase the 50% flower. Literally, we see that. It's been a huge thing. Whenever we're publishing something at 26 and it's 48% from this other lab, why work with us, right? Whenever that same lab will pass you and never fail a test for aspergillus, pesticides, whatever it is, You know, why chance it with us, right?

23:03SpeakerSo there's, there becomes this disincentive to even want to work with a good lab, you know, but, you know, thank jaw, you know, at the beginning of this year, you know, the state, you know, there was a big shift, you know, the state lab came online, they have one down in SoCal that we're working with the University of San Diego, one up in Hayward or in the Bay Area.

23:24SpeakerAnd if you've been tracking the news, you know, there's been more recalls this year than there's been in the last five years combined. You know, and if you kind of tracked, you know, it's really been around potency labeling, inflated potency, as well as for aspergillus, right? It hasn't been about pesticides because they haven't had those capabilities internally. But, but, you know, essentially now that this is kind of, you know, because, and I think that's one of the big things that, you know, the hope of California regulation was going to help button up, you know, learning lessons from previous states mistakes, you know, to have a comprehensive lab.

23:57SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

24:25SpeakerYou know, clean compared to the black market. But then, boom, the L.A. Times expose dropped and really kind of showed, you know, because when Paige St. John reached out to us in February early this year, you know, she was kind of writing a story about how it was an expose on how California regulators failing to do their job and enact what's in the what was in the regulations to kind of create a state run lab that's secret shopping, testing the testers.

24:51SpeakerBut the fact that they hadn't done that basically the point of the article was around how failed regulators not doing their job to enact this has led to compromised public health and consumer safety at the retail level. And so they went and bought 70 something products off shelves. They fully anonymized all the products. You know, took flour out of packaging, gummies out of packaging, cartridges out of packaging.

25:16SpeakerThey anonymized whatever logos were on the cartridges. And then they split the samples, sent half to us, half to Nresco in San Francisco. On Nresco is often the lab that we get compared to whenever people have questions to confirm pesticide data. We have very comparable tests. And so the only thing that they published in the LA Times expose is what was double blind confirmed between us and then Resco.

25:41SpeakerAnd so, you know, it was really, really fascinating because, you know, flower had 30% fail rate or so, you know, kind of, it was really for, you know, you saw chlorophenopyr, pypronobutoxide, pyrethrin, bifenthrin, those are all bug bomb. Thank you for joining us.

26:17SpeakerWhenever I was in the hydro store, there was this very common practice in cultivation where in between harvests in indoor farms, people used to basically sterilize their rooms, you know, by they'd spray their walls, scrub their tables, do whatever it would serve sanitation agents. But then they would take these 10,000 square foot greenhouse fathers. They would light them off in 500 to 1,000 square foot rooms. That are made out of sheetrock and drywall.

26:43SpeakerAnd they would basically total release fog these bug bombs that permeates every surface area of that space and it sucks into and absorbs into the drywall and sheetrock. And then it sits around and then the next harvest they do it and the next harvest they do it. And essentially there becomes this like contamination, hyper contamination factor that builds into the sheetrock and drywall. You can test the drywall and like Huge part per million levels.

27:07SpeakerAnd what happens is every time that, you know, temperature humidity differentials, you know, hit peak, you know, whatever levels there's this off gassing that happens years after its original use. So whenever, anytime we see, like, cause we do a lot of root cause analysis, forensic investigations when people fail and you know it's, there's a huge kind of correlation to, you see, you see, if you see like chlorophenic pure pyruvate butoxide pyrethrin, Um, by Fenthrin, you know, there's, there's a three different bug bombs and there's a, you know, when we see that, you know, you could guarantee it's an indoor cultivation where these bombs are dropped and people might not even have used them for the last year or so.

27:46SpeakerUm, but it's still showing up, you know, so that was one thing. And then, you know, But the more damning kind of, I think, realization from it was around cartridges, right? And in some of the worst examples, cartridges had like a 65% fail rate. And in some of the cartridges, there was 10 to 20 pesticides detectable, quantifiable, and 10 of those were in failing levels. A lot of them were 100 to 1,000 time levels.

28:12SpeakerYou know, like, you know, so and you don't see that no farmers spraying that many pesticides of those types of concentrations. You know, that's 100 percent indicative of closed loop extraction processes, you know, whether it's butane extraction, whether it's CO2, whether it's distillation. You know, like the people that are most on it, what we've learned, people that can kind of, you know, there's a lot of clients that we work with in the state of California that have a non-detect level standard across the board.

28:41SpeakerAnd they screen material, they micro extract it before they even commit to purchasing material so that they know what's coming into their extraction closed loop system. You know, so, and, and if there is ever anything, they, they know what's there so that they can very effectively, thoroughly flush their systems, compartmentalize the gas, et cetera, et cetera. But what that, what happens is when nobody's cleaning their instruments in between and they're just running material from this farm and this farm and this farm, you know, one dude's herpes comes in, the next dude's syphilis, the next dude's gonorrhea, the next dude, you know, so the next thing you know, there's herpagonosyphilates.

29:15SpeakerYou know, in the extraction machine, and even if you then run hundreds of pounds of clean material, you know, all of that load carries over and concentrates in the material and it just keeps carrying over and concentrating. And so whenever people that are on the action side of things are just getting clean, non-detect results from some fraudulent lab, Thank you so much for joining us.

30:01SpeakerWe're just so thankful. We're tossing a big fat softball to people like Alex Berenson. Oh, yeah.

30:20SpeakerBut his, you know, he's running around saying this shit's all causing schizophrenia and violence and everything else. And as everyone in this audience knows, those studies are all done with like marijuana that no one ever tests. So we've got no idea what's in that stuff. And yet this pesticide issue, if you look up a lot of these insecticides and pesticides, they have like psychosis listed, right? There's neurological artifacts that can occur.

30:44SpeakerYeah, like World War II nerve agents shifted to pesticides of the future. Yeah, neurology is a major aspect of this. You know, I'm living with a family member who has Parkinson's, so I deeply understand the neurology of what happens to a human when things start to go sideways. And, you know, it's really, you know, it's concerning on multiple levels. And a couple of things that you said, Alec, really came to mind in my experience in California Thank you for joining us.

31:20SpeakerI, you know, and then here's another side of your story is the marketing aspect of product. You know, I've been mandated as a product developer to make a certain percentage point before. And that's troubling because that's not how this works. You don't just design a, you know, a, you know, 99 proof product that's going to be amazing on all the touch points that we all love. You're not going to just create a 95%.

31:45SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

32:09SpeakerYou know how it's gonna make you feel because again it goes back to the basics of what we all understand is that it's all individual and we're we all have to learn about these products and how they bind with us as people um and how our receptors you know bind with those those constituents there but i think it's it's a big problem because on two sides of the coin you have people marketing and then you have people shopping that idea of marketing to create a narrative That really is a false narrative because that's not actually how the plant works.

32:38SpeakerIt's not how, you know, so I think that's another aspect of the conversation. I wanted to bring a little bit of light because that's been my experience with this is I've been asked to lab shop and then I call these labs out being like, guys, this is not what's in this. This is way too high. Thank you for joining us.

33:22SpeakerYeah, I spent my life dealing with all of this in developing high-level products for several markets at once. And it just ripped open the doors of deception on me. And I was the one saying, no, guys, actually, this is what the constituents were. It should be here or generally around here. And then they went and retested it. Like, oh, yeah, you're kind of right. It is this.

33:47SpeakerIt is that. But you do have a dichotomy here. So I wanted to kind of bring that up because it's there's two drivers. You have agriculture and then you have marketing and sales are really three because you have you have to market and then sell it. Right. So I think those together make a really, really interesting cocktail that needs to be addressed across. Well, I think that's, I mean, ultimately what everyone's talking about here is California, because we're talking about California and California is a big model, a hyper model for cannabis globally, really.

34:17SpeakerIt's California dropped the ball in all, in a lot of different ways, right? California, the fifth largest economy in the world, agriculture, it's a big impact, you know, it's, they just didn't have the foresight to really roll this out and actually maybe Not just lacking foresight, but lacking desire, lacking integrity, not treating it like other crops. I mean, even today, you know, the California, the CDFA puts out an annual crop statistics report, you know, on all different crops.

34:48SpeakerIt's very comprehensive. It's about, it talks about inputs. It talks about pesticide costs, each county, what each county spends and everything. California is not even, I mean, cannabis isn't even in that report. There's not even an honorable mention that say, hey, we can't talk about it because of federal regulations. It's not there. So it's the largest cash crop in the state, and it's not treated like a crop.

35:13SpeakerSo the divide between agriculture and the community, the culture, the marketing, everything was just a complete dropping of the ball. And then the pesticide thing, example, I remember... But 2015, me and Rob were kind of in a circle of people talking about like, hey, what would you guys do if you were rolling out legal cannabis in California? And Alec, the first thing I thought of was my experience in hydro shops, right?

35:42SpeakerIt's a dirty, dirty world. And everyone thinks everyone in cannabis is all cool. And hey, now we're all brothers and we're all here and it's all about the plant. Let's be honest. In California, cannabis was about money. And people flocked to this state from all over the world to grow cannabis to make a bunch of money. And it's a cool way to make money. But anyway, the hydro shops were feeding the industry with a lot of either outlawed or non-accessible pesticides.

36:09SpeakerAnd to me, I'm like, wow, you can't let that happen You can't let that be unregulated and then have agriculture exist over here. It just doesn't work that way. Anyway, so when we got a license down in LA and I have a friend who had the local hydro shop and I'd go and walk in and say, hey, buddy, and buy some stuff. I'd sit there and listen to him time and time again, say to people, are you licensed or not?

36:35SpeakerAnd the are not part, they walk them in the back and they pull out, they open up the door, the trap door, you know, the deal, and they pull out countless over and over again, pesticides that, and then they give it to them in an unlabeled bottle with no instructions at all on how to use it with maybe a Sharpie on the side that says like 2.5 mil per gallon or something.

36:58SpeakerAnd I'm just like, and the people that they were selling it to, honestly, let's be honest, they were fairly large commercial growers growing throughout the state. And they basically right at that transition point said, no, you don't have to worry about that. And to me, the big thing, the pesticide issue, that was like obvious, like why do people do that? But the fact that there's still Paclobutazole That's testing hot.

37:23SpeakerShowed that this whole mentality and this whole market hasn't stopped. It only blew up. It only got bigger, you know what I mean? And to me, that's the state not looking at cannabis like a crop, not thinking about, I mean, the way they regulated the canopy, the way they regulated who got licenses, all of it, they're not thinking about it the same way they think about all the other crops, which is, it's a commodity, you have to protect the farmer, you have to maintain a certain status quo in terms of yield and what the price per whatever is.

37:59SpeakerAnyway, that to me is a big part of this. And California now is trying to kind of like backpedal and figure out, well, but so it's overregulated. We know that. It's not regulated like another crop. We know that. It's not regulated like tobacco or alcohol, right? So to me, it's just a big dropping of the ball. Like no one really...

38:22BubblemanWould it be scary if it was regulated like tobacco? Like don't they grow tobacco with radium-226?

38:31SpeakerBut real quick, the point there that I make is that if we imagine prohibition never happened, what would the market look like? We all want to be a cleaner, safer, better world. But we also want cannabis to be treated like other plants. So there's that to me is a big part of this intersection with how do we transition. It applies to hemp. It applies to the THCA market.

38:57SpeakerIt applies to how we apply pesticides. It applies to so many different aspects, the shop, the way we test and sell by THC percentage. It's like We need to get to the point where from a higher level, we understand that this is a cash commodity. It's huge. We need to protect the farmer. We need to protect all of those things. And at the same time, it's nuanced because cannabis is incredibly complicated and there's a lot of weird chemistry there.

39:25SpeakerWell, and it's become a cash commodity, but it's also a sacred plant sacrament, right? And I don't think it's about stooping to the low of agriculture, which is captured and all but poisoned and led to all the long-term chronic illness and cancer that now we're faced with. I think it's cannabis is here one of the big great gifts it's here to offer beyond the phytochemical complex of what it brings is through the testing that we've never applied to any other crop on this level and it being this great bio accumulator of the century it's helping to uproot the story and the legacy of the green revolution and what we've done the land what we've done to the neighborhoods what we've done to the school districts downwind of the drifting avocado farms you know and so for what it's worth like You know, I think kind of when there is integrity testing, I think that creates the barrier of entry that keeps out big ag, big tobacco, big pharma, right?

40:18SpeakerBecause you can't just flip a thousand acre monocrop mega farm that sprayed glyphosate and all the organophosphates from World War II that, you know, you could go grow rope for 10 years, maybe clean up your land. One day you can grow some type one, type two, type three drug cultivars. But until then, go grow rope, you know, because the thing is, is like, You know, cannabis, I mean, because there's the potency thing and then there's the public health and safety thing, right?

40:40SpeakerThe potency thing is a marketing bullshit thing. It doesn't matter. You blow out 80% of the cannabinoids and turfs in the smoke, you know, whenever you exhale. Nobody holds it in their lungs like they used to when we were growing up, you know, because it was so cherished and, you know, rare or, you know, scarce. You know, people are sipping and ripping, just taking a little puff, blowing it out, right?

41:00SpeakerMost of everything goes on the smoke. So I think it's the labeling, pure labeling, right? And Or pure marketing, right? And deducing it down to THC has kind of really blurred the lines between the most monocrop biomass and the most craft champagne quality cannabis there is. And then labs just passing everything as clean has blurred lines between the dirtiest, most ag-adjacent herb and the cleanest, most like, you know, kind of complete You know, non-compromised herb, right?

41:33SpeakerAnd so I think the testing has a huge role, you know, to kind of help to kind of create that division between what we're talking about. But, you know, when it comes to, you know, the whole reality of the pesticides, you know, I think it's, you know, because there's a lot of national efforts on the hemp lobby with a lot of big money people trying to, you know, further turn this into a commodity, right?

41:55SpeakerAnd again, because, you know, I think this plants a lot of things, right? But But the thing is, is I think we have to be eternally vigilant to prevent this from ever happening, right? Because if we allow the stripping of the regulations and reduction to be more like food, then, you know, everybody lost. Nobody ever had a chance, right? Everybody that's been doing this all their life, right?

42:17SpeakerBut the thing is, is where cannabis is planted, it's kind of like a transparency beacon. You know, so in Santa Barbara County where all the avocados and all in Camarillo, all the, I mean, rotational ag, uh, rotational crop planted throughout the year, different times sprayed with different pesticides and punch sides and things, right. It's a constant moving target. And so when a cannabis farm is planted there, boom, Bing, you failed right now that there's recourse because like farmers carrying crop insurance, crop insurance claims are skyrocketing in California right now.

42:46SpeakerYou know, farmers are getting sued because they're, Their drift is affecting a neighboring cannabis farm that's a high value crop. And now their crop insurance skyrockets. Now kind of liability is there. You know, there's all these pest use report request investigations leading to kind of crop insurance claims. And so what's happening is it's forcing reform in agriculture. Yeah. Ariel Sprang out of helicopters and planes in Santa Barbara County has decreased by like 80% in the last few years because cannabis is now in the neighborhood, right?

43:19SpeakerAnd so not only does that clean up and prevent kind of cannabis farms from kind of just having this constant failing situation that they can't do anything about, but it's also preventing, it's lowering the overall exposure of school districts and the watersheds and streams. And, you know, because people spraying in the middle of the day, Thank you so much for joining us.

44:01SpeakerI think one of the things that would really help the industry and put it above this whole ag market, which is fairly non-transparent, is if we can get the states to put their testing data from metric public. Right now, we have to FOIA this stuff from a lot of the states, which is a big pain in the ass. And hats off to Yasha Khan and Jeff Ross and a lot of the people who've gone and done that.

44:21SpeakerJim McRae also did a lot of this early on in Washington. Can you guys see this screen that I put up? All right, so what we've done is we've gotten FOIA data Adam Wendel, Ed.D. : supplied by yasha and others whoever has it and put it into a sequel database, so that we can look at in this case we're not doing thc, though we have that data, we can do that next we've been looking at just microbial failure rates.

44:44SpeakerAdam Wendel, Ed.D. : Right, and so we can chart the fail rate per lab and this gives us all types of information in regards to like which labs are you know over or under. Aaron Weissman, Ed.D.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.T.I.

45:08SpeakerVery, very well-respected lab in mass. So this is their total yeast and mold levels across time for every test in mass. This has been going on for several years. As many know, the action limit mass is 10,000 CFUs per gram, and this is red line here. So they have an even distribution of past fails, you know, of samples above and beyond in terms of CFUs per gram.

45:28SpeakerTheir data's thinning out over time because they're honest. People are leaving this lab because this lab is in the state. And that's shocking. This has been going on since 2022, and the CCC has done nothing. Except when labs raised this, the labs that raised the fact that this is fake data, or at least severely conflicted data, they got visited by, they call it raided, inspected by the CCC.

46:00SpeakerSo the whistleblowers got attacked. And this particular lab we know is operating like in 10 states at least. And they're vacuuming up the volume in all the states. So for those who are not familiar with this, somehow the yeast and mold know to stop growing at 10,000 in Massachusetts. And if you go to other states where it's at 100,000, it'll have the same thing. They got the memo.

46:24SpeakerYes, the yeast and mold got the memo. So the other benefit of this is that this is Massachusetts data, but what could be really helpful in this arena for a lot of these regulars, because they have their own, they have their own tranches of data, which they're drowning in. But they don't know how they compare to other states. Like this would have like really helped Oregon because Oregon blew out astrogelous testing because a few labs there, this is not apparent at the time.

46:52SpeakerSo, you know, not anyone's fault, but growers were getting screwed and that some labs had 100% fail rate. Yeah. But a couple labs had the same fail rate as, sorry, this is taking a little bit of time to load. Take it off log scale. Yeah. Some other labs had a fail rate that was, you can find the right labs here, that was in line with Michigan and Nevada.

47:18SpeakerAm I in Aspergillus? Oh, sorry. I might need to be fooled. And got to find the right, oh, sorry. I'm in the wrong graph. That's why. My bad.

47:40SpeakerSo if you look at this, there's some labs here that are giving like a 4% fail rate. That's what we see in Michigan and Nevada. So that would have been, there shouldn't have been any alarm bells. However, if you look at some of the lower volume labs, you move this minimum test down, more labs should show up. Some of these labs are failing everything. And they had very few sample volume to do this.

48:02SpeakerMost of them were under 100 tests. So this created a panic, and the growers sued and got the regs removed. So now there's no Aspergillus testing in Michigan. Obviously, I'm conflicted. So, you know, cry me a river or sorry, Oregon. Yeah. But if the states had the capacity to measure state to state, the regulars were known. Oh, wait a minute. We're dealing with an anomaly here. There's a couple of labs that are out of spec, but the largest volume lab in the state was in line with Michigan and Nevada.

48:34SpeakerAll right, we know where to focus. But instead, they kind of folded not being able to handle the onslaught that was occurring. And the growers rightfully were like, shit, we're going to all go out of business if they were testing at any of these labs that had 100%, you know, really high fail rates. Well, so we can do this with pesticides as well. There's a host of ways to kind of parse the data.

48:55SpeakerBut I think getting this public so that a lot of people in the field can attack the data, help the regulators. The regulators don't have anyone on staff to do this type of data analysis. At least not that I've met. And it's always better to have more eyes. And of course, there are labs that are vested in understanding this data. There are consumers that are vested. But very rarely do the labs or the consumers have the lobbying power to go and change the regulations.

49:22SpeakerThe growers have a lot of money and a lot of tax receipts. And so be it. I think the market, if you look at the lab market, it's like $400 million a year is what it's been estimated at. Whereas the grow market is, you know, the whole cannabis industry is north of 20 billion. So the regulations are going to get written by the people with the most tax money going into the state coffers.

49:45SpeakerAnd so they'll continue to probably do what tobacco did, which is to rip out all the regulations possible. And while the consumers and the labs kind of sit on this different economic chessboard. Now, the same thing can probably be done with pesticides. We have some pesticide data in here in Oregon. You can see the pesticide data in Oregon didn't radically change during the timeframe of putting in any of that.

50:12SpeakerAnyway, I think that's my soapbox is that I think if we get this data public, we can help the regulators police the market. Kind of like what happened in Washington. Yeah, because whenever the public was able to do the Freedom of Information Act request and look at the data, it was kind of pretty transparent with labs were never failing anybody and deviating from actually the average. But Kevin, this is a huge thing.

50:36SpeakerI'd love to talk with you at length about this. I'm actively in multiple... Pretty large aspergillus contamination root cause analyzes, which I, you know, because really early on when legalization happens, you know, fail started popping up. A fail is consequential. You have to remediate or destroy product. Thousands, tens of thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars product. Really early at SC Labs, we learned like you can't just auto email somebody a fail.

51:04SpeakerThat's the end of the relationship. And a lot of labs that opened kind of within a year of legalization that thought it was just a get rich quick guaranteed testing kind of thing because it's mandatory. They were compromised from the very beginning because it's like a fail means the loss of the business. And so a lot of labs that had no understanding of the plant, no kind of experience, no ability to even engage with clients to help them figure it out.

51:34SpeakerIt's easier to pass people so that people would just pass people. And that's, again, where this disincentive occurred with us. So we almost went out of business towards the end of last year because nobody even wanted to work with us because of how fraudulent the testing space was. But on the topic of Aspergillus, it's really fascinating because You know what we see it's about about two and a half three percent fail rate across all testing so most people don't fail most of the time but whenever somebody has legitimate spores detected and present that's an indication that spores are present somewhere in your facility and unless they're attended to methodically to like eradicate them from a facility then what you can see is like this over time You know, intermittent fail rate from like one out of 40 batches to one out of 20 batches to one out of 10 batches.

52:19SpeakerSo you start seeing this like exponential increase in fail rates to where like worst case scenario examples, you know, we've had groups have a We have a 50 to 60% fail rate for Fumigatus or Flavus on any sample they sent in, right? And that's what happens whenever an issue arises with Aspergillus that is not even addressed, right? Or like somebody works with a lab to just give them clean results and brush it under the rug.

52:44SpeakerBut that doesn't mean it goes away. And this kind of really, I think in a big way, kind of correlates to that Oregon conversation as well, because Oregon didn't do any micro testing for six, seven plus years of legalization. So all of a sudden now, like Aspergillus kicks in, All of a sudden, fail rates are kind of way higher than people think. Sure, there's probably a bunch of uncontaminated labs not having their shit together, not having the, you know, positive day controls, all the things in place to ensure that they're producing quality data.

53:09SpeakerBut I'm not, I wouldn't be surprised if certain groups actually legitimately had a really high fail rate, right? Because what happens, what we've seen is, you know, predatory, like, so, so these species of Aspergillus, they're not native to cannabis microbiome, they're placed there through some type of a vector source. Those vector sources can be something like Like contaminated trichoderma. Who would have ever thought that, right? People are buying from Arbic Organics, certain products I won't name where they're inoculate.

53:34SpeakerYou got like beneficial fungus, green clays contaminated with Aspergillus fumigatus, right? So you're buying thousands of dollars of beneficial fungus, inadvertently inoculating human pathogenic fungus all over your entire crop, watering it into the root zones, right? People are taking predatory bug sources. Right, that are on a media, right? Vermiculite mix, a vermiculite brand mix, right? And they're spreading it over the root balls of their plants to deploy the bugs.

53:58SpeakerWell, guess what? That's a vector. Like we've seen like a couple of the biggest cases, like an ongoing one we're working with right now. We just kind of, you know, and because that's what's crazy. It's like we were never the lab that was going to just stroke somebody's ego, like tell them everything is OK and just fraudulently like let them get passes. We failed. If it fails, we fail.

54:17SpeakerWe fail them and then somebody like myself and now we have a technical services team to engage immediately as a fail happens to both demonstrate the quality and reproducibility of our work and how seriously we take a fail and and all the LQC checks that we have in place to ensure the quality of the batch and the data and then from there disarming because everybody always wants to put it on the lab like lab All of these guys screwed up, right?

54:38SpeakerBut then after we do this process of demonstrating quality and precision of our work, then we shift into a root cause analysis. And over hundreds of these root cause analyzes, we've gotten to the exact who, what, where, why, when, how, and a contaminant might have entered the supply chain. And we've been able to turn, because originally it was like total shit sandwiches, just engaging with groups, worst conversation I've ever had with an owner screaming at me.

55:04SpeakerYou know, kind of, but now it's like, you know, we've developed a palette for these shit sandwiches because we've had, we have so many example use cases, root cause cases where we've figured this out. And so now it's like within a few questions, we can actually help somebody genuinely figure out what it's coming from. Because what happens is there's a vector that introduces it. Once it's introduced, then if you, you know, say you, say you introduce it through a predatory bug source or introduce it through inoculating.

55:31SpeakerYeah, exactly. We've seen it. Certain instances of like, like there's pinstripe, like that's like a cocoa fiber, peat moss, perlite, right? We've seen like instances, you know, so they can be batch to batch like media issues. But, but whenever we see the widespread outbreaks and contamination, it's usually we're seeing it from Thank you so much.

56:11SpeakerYou know where humidity spikes you got dehumidifiers working to pull out the humidity you have tons of airflow circulating the air around and so what happens is you have the proliferation of the spores that then spread in the air systems and so so the the amplification multiplication factor for the fail rates Thank you for joining us today.

56:47SpeakerIdentify the root, chase it out of the facility, remove that source from ever being introduced, and then simultaneously leveling up microbial reduction strategies for how somebody is approaching air system decontamination. Because most farmers that don't fail most of the time You know, they have some semi, you know, solid process of surface sanitation and spraying walls and cleaning trays, but very few farmers ever use some type of chlorine dioxide or other type of gas type of solution where they actually intentionally target air systems because air systems are the biggest place where we see the spore counts kind of grow, rise, and then carry over to the next batch and the next batch.

57:30SpeakerAnd then all of a sudden it's an amplification issue that That's where we see the fail rates go from like, you know, 2% up to 15, 30, 40 plus percent within a facility. But whenever, but it's a very contained within a specific facility issue. Most people don't fail most of the time. But again, once it's present, if you don't like very methodically like address the issue, it can become like you got to like burn your facility down kind of situation.

57:55SpeakerSo Alex, it's a garden clean, you know, compared to, or a lot cheaper than the rad source machine that you use to nuke all your weed. Yeah. So Alex, you know, last week we, we kind of brushed over like for maybe two minutes remediation and, you know, we were talking about aspergillus a little bit and, you know, We've talked a lot about the data. We've talked a lot about what we see wrong.

58:21SpeakerYou know, what we see a lot in a lot of new markets is just it goes straight to remediation and then that goes to a jar for some reason, right? And then someone's like, someone's buying that being like, yeah, I just bought a black cherry or just bought powdered donuts and they go home and they're smoking remediated herb that is just laden with dead cells. Now, how healthy is that?

58:44SpeakerYou know, and what what are we doing in the in in the industry or the community to to bring awareness has a good paper on this looking at bio aerosols like so if you zap your way out of this problem, you end up with high mycotoxins and high endotoxins and a variety of other stuff that are just not well studied. Unfortunately, so the paper I threw up here, speaking of powdered donuts, this is a really good paper from Zamir Punja, where he's noticed that the total yeast and mold levels in his plants are very genotype specific.

59:14SpeakerHe's got some that are 50 fold less TYM than others consistently. Powder Donuts being one of the worst ones because maybe that powder isn't the powder you want. Exactly. I think that's the thing I think about a lot is we all talk about this. We're coming in for wellness and we're leaving with what? Another problem? And then we are doing our best as community members and constituents and, you know, just good practices all the way through.

59:48SpeakerAnd then at the end, you're getting tested for this and it's not calling out the specific strain of what this is. And there's really no, it's just a blanket pass fail. And is that the right way, Kevin, Mark? You know, do you feel... You know, Alec, I guess, you know, even going deeper, is there a way for us to call out these specific constituents that are problematic versus the ones that are perhaps benign?

1:00:15SpeakerIf you find me real quick, go ahead, Alec, you first. Cool. Yeah, just real quick, you know, like because. So. Although California's triple fucked up in all kinds of ways, you know, around kind of how this whole system is rolled out, you know, one thing I think that they did really well and, you know, we actually were a big lobby part with a lot of the organic farmers in California to kind of block the implementation of total yeast and mold, total robo-bacteria levels, right?

1:00:43SpeakerBecause... You know, what we've seen from states that have implemented these incredibly restrictive use of mold count levels and bacteria levels, you know, that's the biggest fail rate. There's 30, 40, 50% fail rate. It forces people into having to kill step, to having to, you know, ozonate or pasteurize or gamma irradiate everything before it's even sold at retail. And in a big way, in my opinion, that kind of dooms a legal market because then everything is terp zapped.

1:01:11SpeakerPrior to being sold, so then you're guaranteed to be able to find everything terpier and fresher and more aromatic and terpenic Thank you for joining us.

1:01:42SpeakerFrom Bayer and DuPont, Syngenta and all these chemical companies, you know, it's like the way is like organic IPM practices using beneficial microorganisms, compost teas, kind of like other ways. Yeah, that stuff basically is a de facto ban on all biocontrol agents. Right, right, right.

1:02:02Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd the thing is, there are no EPA approved pesticides for use on Cannabis and all the state regulatory bodies that have tried to make select lists. You'll see like most of the bio pesticides on there, you know, low, you know, efficacy, high use rate kind of materials. But the onus is on. So what is a pesticide? Pesticides are active ingredient that kills bugs. It's sold in different product formulations and places like Lowe's and Home Depot.

1:02:35Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd yeah, the onus is on the company that registers so those products are regulated under the Environmental Protection Agency, not the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The EPA grants licenses for use on pesticides and nothing is registered for use on cannabis. Now, they do have some stuff registered on hemp, which I thought is interesting, right? Again, I think they're caught in that whole Differentiation based on cannabinoid profile.

1:03:09Dr Mark ScialdoneBut until the company shows that owns the registration for the active ingredient shows that at commercial application use rates that there's no effect to the environment, no effect to the crop in terms of toxicity. And, you know, for that, they'd have to basically enroll human subjects, which is going to take years and millions of dollars. To show that we could apply this pesticide to cannabis during this stage of production at this youth rate.

1:03:43Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd here are the metabolites. And we've done safety assessments on the levels of metabolites that are in the final cannabis products. And guess what?

1:03:52SpeakerThey're safe.

1:03:53Dr Mark ScialdoneBut we've done basically clinical studies in humans to show that when they apply A typical insecticide or a fungicide to a crop. First of all, a lot of those crops, or most of those crops aren't smoked, right? And a lot of those crops are washed. And a lot of those crops, and I really love your comment here, Alex, because growing indoors, you know, a lot of these pesticides are basically photolytically labile.

1:04:24Dr Mark ScialdoneSo they're meant to basically elicit their mode of action. And then the photolytically degrade within days.

1:04:31SpeakerWith UVA, BNC spectrum, which isn't there in indoor either, right?

1:04:35Dr Mark ScialdoneSomehow, right. And you may not be getting that light in your indoor grow. But the other thing you said, which is really, you know, again, disturbing to hear, is that these things are environmentally persistent in indoor cavities. And especially when you have things like drywall, which, you know, is great for hanging pictures on your wall, but not the thing you want to clad. The inside of your cannabis production facility with right.

1:05:02Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's certainly better cladding options. But maybe, Kevin, I guess the interesting aspect I saw in your data is, yeah, again, that bifurcation where it's like, OK, now everything's all of a sudden below and those labs are getting the business. And you know that, again, in testing labs, it's all about the numbers, right, Alec? It's all about how many How many test samples can you get out? How many customers can you keep?

1:05:31Dr Mark ScialdoneSo the samples that you're testing this week, are people going to get those results and be like, oh, fuck, we're not going to go to SC anymore. We're going to go to some other place that's going to give us better results. So maintaining customers, I mean, it's an incredible challenge. And I remember when looking at pro formas, the testing labs, you think, oh yeah, these companies probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

1:05:53Dr Mark ScialdoneLike, fuck no. It's like, They're operating at a razor thin margin where basically you're trying to, you're trying to beat the other 10 testing labs in your neighborhood. So, I mean, there's incredible pressures on these labs to produce and to try to, you know, create bottom line impacts. So it's a, it's a tough place to be, man. Like, I don't know.

1:06:19SpeakerMark, that's where the marketing is a problem, man. It's like, it's just, there's no, there's nearly no, There's no factual evidence behind a lot of the marketing. It's just all, it's all the highest point. And then they go out and shop that, right? So it creates that competition because they have a mandate as a business. If you're trying to hit a product at 92% every single time with 8% turps, so it tastes good and hits the high 90s, I mean, you'll shop that all day long.

1:06:49SpeakerIf you can make, make one printed design and send it around to 200 shops, like it just saves you money across the board.

1:06:59SpeakerI just wanted to finish the point I was trying to make real quick, you know, just about kind of like what Kevin was talking about with the Oregon stuff, you know, cause and in California and how California did testing, you know, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:07:25SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:07:44SpeakerSo it's not like a quantification how much is there. It's just presence or absence, right? We haven't really ever failed anybody for mycotoxins, right? So it's not like peanuts or coffee beans where it's like widespread outbreak producing mycotoxins, but it's more intermittently spread, right? Particularly compounded through air systems. But that's one of the big things that I want to make point of is like, you know, like focusing specifically on public health and safety and what can harm people, right, is what I think the way forward is, right?

1:08:23SpeakerAnd with that, it's going to end up in court, right?

1:08:26GmlEventually it's going to end up in court.

1:08:28SpeakerAnd the clinical literature is not written in the language of 11,000 total yeast and mold colonies hurt somebody. They just don't write papers that way because they're forced to basically satisfy Koch's postulates, which is you isolate the pathogenic organizm. And you reintroduce it to a model organizm and see that it creates harm. And if you haven't created that loop, you can't publish. Like the clinical literature is not going to let you publish something saying I had 56,000 total aerobic count and maybe that hurt somebody.

1:08:56SpeakerYou're going to say, no, go back and tell us if it was E. coli, if it was salmonella, if it was staph, if it was pseudomonas, like you have to isolate the organizm. So all the clinical literature is written in species specific language. So let's say it grows like happens in Oregon and they were to go to court, they would probably lose against Aspergillus because there's in fact clinical literature, you know, tying harm to real patients.

1:09:18SpeakerIf they applied that case against Total Use and Mold, they would win. Because the reality cannot defend. You do not know which level is harmful. And it's meant to be just a bio burden check. It's not meant to actually predict clinical outcomes. Right. But the reality of Aspergillus though in Oregon, right? Because in Oregon, you got all the heady organic people deploying organic IPM practices, spreading predatory bugs, deploying trichoderma.

1:09:44SpeakerIt wouldn't surprise me if a pretty high fail rate existed Thank you so much for joining us.

1:10:17SpeakerYou know, Oregon, you know, didn't have any microbiology testing in place. They started like by leading the way because they had a pesticide test, but they didn't do this thing with Aspergillus. And then they fought it and, you know, prevented it from coming in. That doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, you know? And so I think the reality is, is, you know, kind of a more sophisticated approach and how kind of it's dealt with and how it's understood because, you know, a lot of well-intentioned organic farmers, you know, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:10:56SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:11:15SpeakerIt's, you know, there are things besides, you know, kind of aspergillus, right? Like there are fusarium producing mycotoxin. There are certain other types of things that could be producing things that are gnarly. So I think instead of kind of just test, you know, that's why I appreciated California. It wasn't just testing all microbes for the sake of testing microbes. It was focusing on the human pathogens. And I think as long as we do that, you know, we can kind of actually as a whole community help kind of, you know, really advance the plant and the safety and efficacy of the plant.

1:11:44SpeakerNow, the flip side of the Aspergillus testing has been that people are complaining that there's visible mold on some cannabis that gets through that Aspergillus, it's not Aspergillus, right? And somehow we probably have to button that up with figuring out what that is and either have a visual screen or... We're finding what other pathogenic organizms were cared about. If it's not pathogenic, we should, you know, throw it out if you can see it like a strawberry.

1:12:07SpeakerBut if it's pathogenic, maybe we got to keep, maybe you got to add something to the list. And that's what the filth and foreign material test is supposed to pick up by the lab. So there's, I think the species specific stuff will also reduce a lot of the lab shopping because the fail rates go down. So people don't have a motivation to lab shop as much. And then, you know, on top of that, the labs are, they're much easier tests to perform and that the lab to lab, they won't be as discordant than the total use and mold tests.

1:12:36SpeakerAnd so you'll probably have less of this capacity for people to find a lab that's got a 2% failure rate versus a 15% failure rate. It's, you know, everyone's going to probably be floating around three to 5%. The independent of which test provider they're using. So it'll probably wipe out the motivation for folks to be lab shopping off of microbials if we get those things done right.

1:12:56SpeakerCan I mention something else about, I'm not sure if we want to talk about this today.

1:13:01BubblemanWade had his hand up. I'm sorry. I always got to defend Wade. Get in there, Wade.

1:13:08SpeakerThank you, Marcus. You're muted, Wade.

1:13:19SpeakerCan you hear me now? Absolutely. Okay. Patient of many years, cultivator of many years. A lot of this conversation this morning has really been focused around solving problems that come with indoor cultivation and or extensive greenhouse cultivation. And I could be naive, and I would ask anyone on the panel to call me out for being naive. But when I was a cultivator and engaged in what we call regenerative practices, where I was creating any of the inputs that I wanted for my crop on my farm, so I knew what was in it.

1:14:06SpeakerAll of these issues around aspergillus, yes, it's in the atmosphere here, but it's a non-issue in a sun-grown regenerative garden, is my experience. And again, totally open to anyone on the group calling me out as bullshit here, but I gotta say that part of the siloing that has happened in states across this country is forcing this conversation upon us. And I really want to remind people that if you grow your own in the sun, take care of your plants.

1:14:40SpeakerThey'll take care of you. That's all I got. I'm going to go back to listening. Fascinating conversation. And again, thank you, Marcus. Love you, brother. I have some data actually at hand that can try to address this. So thank you for bringing it up, Wade. So there is a lot of discussion about Aspergillus out there, and you have to keep in mind that Aspergillus has got 280 different species, and we only give a shit about four of them.

1:15:05SpeakerAll right, so this is, now I don't have this split by outdoor and indoor, but it's a very important point that I'll have to see if we have that information and we can maybe dissect it and get to that. But what you're seeing on these top lines up here that are kind of cratering to the right are all Aspergillus species and leaves. So let me back up.

1:15:23SpeakerWe've got about a thousand whole genome sequenced. When we do whole genome sequencing, we get the microbiome picture with it. And so we can then ask what tissue type did the sequencing come from and look at the microbiome per tissue type. So when you're looking on the x-axis here are the number of reads per million. So when you're sequencing the fungal microbiome, we're just counting how many reads are aspergillus versus all other fungal shit that's there.

1:15:49SpeakerAnd you can see 100% of the samples will have aspergillus of some sort at 100 reads per million. So a very, very low amount, but all of the samples that we collected, this is 943 samples that are in there. However, when you start going down to the four that we care about in the regulations, this drops down to like the 9% range that have 100 reads per million.

1:16:12SpeakerWe think the PCR tests are kind of picking things up somewhere around the three or 400 reads per million range. So this kind of lines up with the Alex number around three to 4% failure rate. But I just want to show this because it's often thrown out there that aspergillus is everywhere, which is true as a genus, but as a species of these four pathogenic ones, there's a huge gap between all of them and just these four.

1:16:34SpeakerSo the ubiquity stuff is, you got to keep in mind, there's a major reduction when you just focus on the few that are there. But we now have this kind of information from basically a thousand different cannabis genomes from all over the world. So we know like what pathogens are there. So we can better inform regulators that, okay, these ones we don't need to care about. These ones we do based on their frequency of what we found from sequencing data.

1:16:58SpeakerBecause what they've really done is just taken most of the food industry and just lobbed it on top of cannabis. Like they're putting Listeria in place. We've never found Listeria. We don't see Listeria in this type of sequencing data, but they want to put it in there because the food people use it and the food people have a test for and they can slap that onto our field and start, you know, harvesting some food testing revenue from us.

1:17:19SpeakerYou know, arguably E. coli in cell. They're very, very low in frequency. They're there. It's like probably one in a thousand samples or something might be positive for them. So, yeah, maybe you do want to grab those if it's going to end up in, you know, oral or end up ingested in some way. But I don't think anyone is lab shopping off of E. coli cell numbers.

1:17:39SpeakerThey're just the frequency of failure is just too low for anyone to give a shit about. That it wouldn't it wouldn't create that kind of economic motivation. So what we got to do, Wade, is I got to see if we have that information in this database, if we can split it by outdoor indoor, because I do think what Alec is bringing up, the indoor systems are recirculating a lot of the air, the spores are in the facility, they're just recycling those.

1:18:01SpeakerAnd outdoor systems may have all types of natural mechanisms to keep aspergillus at bay, like all these other gram positive bacteria that flush it out of out of competition.

1:18:14Archive SeedsOne thing I think is important to keep in mind is how like with the data coming from a lot of the product that's in the market is not what the test Actually represents, you know, there's a lot of product that just gets slapped a label on it, so to speak, in every market where people are just taking, you know, part of some other batch and making it a part of a batch that has a different sample or test on it.

1:18:40Archive SeedsAnd that's, I think that the problem is probably a lot more widespread than even the data would show.

1:18:45SpeakerIt's a really good point. You know, there's a lot of that going on, especially nowadays because of the times that we're in, you know, making things go further. Test results last longer. Batching large batches over time and testing them week after week or every biweekly is a really expensive endeavor. You know, so I think that's that's a good call out. I've thought about that often. It's funny that you bring that up because it's.

1:19:15Archive SeedsIt's, yeah, I mean, metric data is, is just about as reliable as the person that's inputting it. So. It can change in the blink of an eye. Right. You know?

1:19:26BubblemanYeah. It's definitely, it's definitely true in the sense that, you know, it, it's not just like, and I saw this in Jamaica a lot. It's not just like bad, evil people who are like, oh, I'm just going to put these chemicals in because I'm nefarious. It's like, you see these situations occur where it's like, I will either feed my family or I won't feed my family. And it's sort of this mentality where you're, it's like the ultimate trial where you're like, okay, like, are you going to have the high integrity and bankrupt your life?

1:19:57BubblemanOr are you going to get that hundred pounds, you know, lot figured out and tested and passed in any way, shape or form that you can. So I think it's a very good point in what Fletch just said in the sense that, yeah, It's just so easy to fall victim to circumstance. I want to keep on the conversation, but I also want to, like, first of all, thank everyone from Fletch.

1:20:22BubblemanI see Etienne is in the room for the first time on 5.0. Brian's back. Alec has also showed up here, which has been awesome, dude, listening to you. Great to have Mojave in the house. Grandmaster LED Thomas is here. Colin and Wade. We've got Dr. Mark. And of course, Kevin McKernan, sharing the data. And it's just a real interesting conversation. So I wanted to recognize and thank you all for showing up.

1:20:46BubblemanI'm here with my homie Merlin. My other friend just rolled up, Lincoln, who's kind of off camera, but he left the room. So I'll just thank everyone. There's 255 people watching right now. And let's keep this conversation going. It's awesome. Thank you, guys.

1:21:02SpeakerYeah, I was going to say, at the Emerald Cup, I met someone who's a farmer in Central Valley. And He grows in the state legal market at scale, grows THCA farm bale hemp at scale, and also grows traditional legacy at scale And plays all three paths. And I'll just like, I'm like, wow, the logistics of that. That's insane. Like, like, wow, that you clearly can handle a lot, but think about how much, you know, there's a lot of diversion in this day, obviously, and everything goes everywhere if it can.

1:21:41SpeakerThat's and I am hearing that in other states too. I hear in other states where people are like, you know, I would buy from from the state market, but their flour sucks. So I'm buying imported THCA flour and then I'm selling it on our shelf as Delta 9. And getting new COAs on it. And it's just like, man, it's just nuts, you know, and there's a lot of that going on.

1:22:05SpeakerAnd lab shopping is kind of at the heart of all that because diversion and, you know, working with burner distros and all that stuff. It's all about having a piece of paper. You know, and it's a dirty supply chain. And it's now a national dirty supply chain. And this whole 80 farms in one batch of distillate, that distillate that went in those vape pens in LA, it also goes to products all over the country.

1:22:32SpeakerThere's, you know, Missouri just had the big recall recently last week, again, because they couldn't validate the supply chain. And that's just validating where it came from, not what's even in it. You know, so it's, it's nuts, man. It's totally, totally nuts. And to me, it's because we never, you know, it's a real big picture issue. It's like, like, Alec, you know, I mean, it's a sacred plant, right?

1:22:56SpeakerIt's like, you need to bring, you need to bring the spirit with it. But you also need to bring philosophers and ethnobotanists and ag tech guys, and everybody gets to get into maybe a comedian or two, you know, get in there and actually like really approach it from a comprehensive kind of panel like approach. And we didn't do that. And this is what we do, you know, and anyway, yeah.

1:23:19SpeakerSo you're striking a chord on the THCA flower thing for me, because I've had several, I have like a partner of mine who was in another state and he was walked into a shop and they had like just everything lined up. It was like every chili bean, they had sour, they had, you know, OG Kush, they had it all just lined up. And he was like, what's the deal here?

1:23:37SpeakerTalk to me about it. And he was like, this is legal. He's like, well, how is it legal? And he walked him through the process of how he buys his pounds and what, you know, gets it through and puts it in the jar. And then they basically have a bodega style set up where they wait in front of you and sell it to you as if you're in a dispo.

1:23:55SpeakerAnd I think that's the other aspect of it. And those pounds would maybe go for 200, 300 bucks. Right. So I think that's to Dr. Mark's point on the commodity side, there's there's a huge influx of this and there's really no one grabbing on to Where any of it came from, there is no COA on most of this stuff. And if it is, it's made up, right?

1:24:16SpeakerSo, yeah. I've got a question.

1:24:20Archive SeedsI've got a question kind of for everybody in here.

1:24:26Archive SeedsWhat percentage of the black market weed that exists today is coming from legal farms, do you think? In my estimation, it's more than 80% of the black market weed is backdoored product. I mean, because now that everybody knows that like the deal on grows, you can't put up an illegal 100 lighter easily anymore at all. Everybody knows why you're installing air conditioners. You need a fucking power upgrade, everything that goes with it.

1:24:55Archive SeedsThe black market is small little guys, mostly little hash guys and stuff like that. Maybe a few, you know, greenhouse outdoor growers and whatever. But the vast majority, especially when you're talking about indoor flowers, all backdoored legal product. I mean, like the the market is not even close. Like the data isn't even close to what the actual market looks like.

1:25:17SpeakerYou know, I think there's also some, you know, there's, there's the big C's as I call them. I think everyone can fill in the blanks as the rest of that word is that are really running the larger ones. But yeah, I think you're right, Fletch. Like it's mainly smaller guys, but it's coming, it's falling out the back door because it's, it's got to go somewhere. Right. So that's where it's going.

1:25:41Archive SeedsAnd when and when you're talking extracts and stuff, it's probably, you know, it's even more than flour, probably.

1:25:48SpeakerWell sadly sadly from kind of my observation you know I think some a lot of the dirtiest material that wouldn't pass testing California goes east you know and I think it happens in a lot of states um you know where they can't pass a state established quality standard it diverts wherever it has to go you know and and um and you know I think there's a lot there you know um Your cannabis is, you know, Mojave, you were saying it's like the dirtiest, you know, the supply chain kind of, I think, I think there's, it's exposing the potential of how dirty the agriculture and landscape is, but it's, so it's, it has the potential to be the dirtiest supply chain, but the regulations and the testing requirements have established it to be cleaner than water and food in most areas of the country, you know, when there's actually integrity in that.

1:26:35SpeakerAnd I think that's something really profound. There's a lot of farmers in California. Like really pridefully kind of establishing themselves, you know, and branding around how our cannabis is cleaner than your food, you know, and I think that's a really profound kind of thing that the plant is here to also bring and kind of exposing the, you know, contradictions in our lives of what we put in or on our body, you know, but yet we smoke cannabis cleaner than food and water, you know, and so I think kind of, you know, the You know, it was interesting because before we opened up Estee Labs in 2007-9, I was working at Hydro Store and I saw that there were two types of people that were serving this plant, you know, kind of through the lens of this whole conversation around IPM, you know, and people would come in like, Week five or six of Flower, you know, webbed spider mites, millions of spider mites kind of just, you know, going Richter.

1:27:30SpeakerAnd they're coming in in a super panic moment because they're like, I fucked up. I didn't do the proper prevention game, you know, to prevent this from being a thing. I now have this really big problem. What can I do? You know, and And it's like always like, dude, you don't, you can't really do anything. You know, it's this vacuum, you know, take some like brawners and like, like sponges, you know, like strip every leaf off the plant that is family for anything kind of that you can do to kind of remove as much of the physical kind of material or eggs and such are.

1:28:07SpeakerYou got a lot of work ahead of you. Get after it. And you can't even really spray things like organic oils because those are also going to be concentrating into your material. And so it's like there's this very integrity way of not compromising the sacred integrity of the spirit of this plant and the healing it is to offer. And then there was this other approach, right? This other approach is like, well, Cool.

1:28:31SpeakerLike, so there were people that were like, all right, I'm going to go get to work. This is sounds like a lot of work. I'm going to go do this. Right. Cause they would never even consider compromising this, this plant, you know, that was going towards in so many ways, compassion and how much it was helping heal. Right. And like this, like act of like, You know, general of charity and generosity that, you know, like those serving would kind of like take seriously with their relationship with the plant, you know, but then there's this other type of person that was in the pure pursuit of profit.

1:28:58SpeakerThat's like, dude, fuck that. Give me the, you know, give me the vials with the little like two mil per gallon thing on the side. Everyone you got, you know, and they would take they would just out of like their own Thank you for joining us.

1:29:29SpeakerThey'd do this like Trinity, like maybe even a little Forbid 4F Spiromephicin, you know, and they would kind of mix them all together and they would spray that on their plant in week five or six of flower, right? That's like akin to like, I mean, the reality of like the what the act of poisoning everybody that touches it from there on. That's akin to like what's happening currently in agriculture with the desiccation of all the grain crops with fucking Roundup, you know, and glyphosate to spray, you know, a week before harvest.

1:30:02SpeakerIf you mix all of it and any of those might stay, those will be resistant to that application. I've seen it with Forbid too. I've been called in to consult for several people over my time that have said they've done this crazy cocktail, this number one mistake, and then they went back in again with them as individual constituents. And yeah, balloons are popping up like it's nuts because it's the truth.

1:30:30SpeakerIt's insane that that is in their mind. Well, that's an ignorant, unmindful use of these anti-life, petrochemical, World War II nerve agent type, you know, that's like without awareness, doing something that's actually really like gnarly towards what the plants are. Just to wrap the point though, I'm sorry, just to get back to what Archive was bringing up, you know, I just wanted to kind of bring this up because You know, I think the reality is, see, it's like, you know, cannabis is being reduced to this like commodity supply chain for pure pursuit of profit capitalization that's being like expressed through all kinds of things with, You know, the legal market intentionally diverting 80% of what's out there to the traditional market, right?

1:31:19SpeakerPassing a contamination buck outward. There's, it's happening kind of in many different ways and flavors, but I think a lot of it is kind of the dirty stuff because, because the reality is, is what we've seen in California. You know, it's like, if you look at prime ag land across the state and all the green zones that agriculture practice, those are red zones for cannabis. Those are the zones that are ag adjacent and you're probably going to be having this ongoing kind of like issue popping up, right?

1:31:47SpeakerBut the point I think I'm getting to there is like, you know, like whenever I think, you know, and I'm not saying this just because I'm part of a testing laboratory, I'm a cultural anthropologist and ethnobotanist and kind of my passion is people and plants and kind of just seeing through the lens of testing, you know, what This plant is doing and bringing to the world. You know, I think I think those that are in integrity with the spirit of the plant, I mean, because, you know, like legalization is just a stupid structure.

1:32:15SpeakerYou know, people have been kind of in services forever and, you know, go, you know, medicine has been going where it needs to go and healing the world. It's, is it, is it clean and in integrity with the spirit of the plant or is it toxic, right? Like all the dirty ass cartridges like that are, could never pass the test here going east. And that's where, I think cartridges is the worst topic to, on this idea of what is moving out of legal markets into the, these other spaces and just also flooding that market, you know, but it's with a hyper toxified product.

1:32:49SpeakerAnd so, you know, I think kind of testing just, and just our, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:33:13SpeakerYou know, it's all, but it's also the biggest competitive advantage. You know, it's like those that, you know, have, have operated by the code of conduct with this plant and work under solid with their word and solid with how they cultivate and solid with like the relations that, you know, that you have with people, you know, kind of in, in, in growing together, you know, it's like, I think it's, you know, I think a big thing of the LA Times expose really exposed this.

1:33:40SpeakerAnd one of my great prayers and hopes around this is, I feel like whenever the state of California is now on a hyper alert about how big this is an issue, it's going to become just a steady, it's a thing now. It's finally going to become fixed, you know, and I think the real value of clean quality, bomb material and extracts is way undervalued. Because it's been driven to extinction in price with all this dirtiest, like, you know, most contaminated, most bulk biomass, you know, to where craft is explode or extinguished almost, you know, but I think the reality is, is, you know, people have been operating on the idea that cannabis is a commodity crop, like, you know, just like price to That, but the reality is it's a scarce resource.

1:34:31SpeakerAnd I think the scarce resource, you know, whenever there's actual testing and transparency and integrity in the system, that scarce resource is, I think, what's going to, like, become... Yeah, one of the big things like can the DCC be successful in policing this if the hemp market is outside of it? Right. It seems like they've got to get an equal footing on the hemp market. I'm sorry to even talk anymore, too.

1:34:55SpeakerBut the reality, too, I think, Kevin, that's that's the biggest thing. Like I think the definition of industrial hemp is is is a curse on the plant, you know, because nobody's growing industrial hemp for fiber. Ninety nine percent of people are growing industrial hemp or growing type three cannabis. You know, and without, with a completely separate world that it has to apply to or participate in, you know, where it's just around this funny game around 0.3% as the definition, you know, there's, it's... And THCA is still the case there, right?

1:35:26Speaker100% and it's a ball game and it's, and I think until there's a federal kind of, like a conversation around kind of being, right, cannabinoid, you know, regulating cannabinoids, Type one, type two, type three cannabis that's grown for drug or medicine cultivation. That's within the same zone. Actual industrial fiber for growing fiber is, you know, sure, that doesn't need that. That's relaxed, you know, but but anyway, I just totally talked way too much.

1:35:52SpeakerAnd so I kind of just. We'd love when you talk too much. Well, that's why we that's why we started testing in the first place is because growers were inherently untrustworthy. There, I said it, you know. So many of them failed when we started testing. And what did they do? They took it elsewhere and sold it because nobody else was testing. So the market showed me early and often, 07, 08, 09, that, you know, Alec, as much as I want to believe in the Kumbaya wonderful grower, they were fewer and far between.

1:36:33SpeakerAnd unfortunately, they still are from time to time. You know, even people who are growing industrially realize they have problems. And that's even before we were talking, you know, ovulating thyroids, you know. So it's just fascinating that the same conundrums, the same problems, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:37:11SpeakerMojave and I have been invited to go check out the USDA's germplasm harvest. They're doing some field days in New York in September. So we're going to go check out. They're growing over 500 different varietals and they're also doing density trials. So it'll be interesting to see what they're doing because they've been collecting germplasm since 2021. And yeah, they're growing it out. They're growing it out at six different facilities around the US, but the majority is that they're growing up in upstate New York for their own trials.

1:37:51SpeakerSo it's going to be interesting to see how they handle it. They actually created and made their own decoritator, which is strictly Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:38:26SpeakerIt was very interesting to see, as we just saw with the Emerald Cup duel with this test. We also saw the state fair in California finally do a person's test as opposed to just relying on laboratory testing. So it's exciting. The boundaries are being pushed. And we're expanding, but we're still contracting around these same issues and problems, especially with the, you know, industrialization and our whole little 10th Amendment, little realities.

1:38:59SpeakerAnd hi, I'm in Newfoundland right now. I'm way off on the the East Coast here. So hi and greetings, everybody. It's great to be back here. I think.

1:39:13SpeakerThat's an important just point is that and the reason that we're going to this USDA trial and the reason that I've been focused on the ag side of cannabis a lot lately is because I've spent my whole life with the plant. It's a sacred plant and it's my community and literally my entire life, right? It's been my entire journey with one plant. But to me, that's about how we use the plant, how our bodies use the plant, the complex chemistry of the plant, all the different uses of the plant, but how the plant grows and the plant itself in terms of its morphology and the agronomics about it, to me, that is just agriculture.

1:39:55SpeakerAnd increasingly, more and more, the people who do cultivate that plant are just people who are growers. So we have this weird transition that we're having now. And the USDA is a perfect example of that, is that we're entering this new cannabis agriculture phase. And us custodians who feel very passionate about all the complexities, we have to pass that on to them. You know, because it's just, I mean, capitalism is a hell of a drug, right?

1:40:24SpeakerIt's going to happen. And the biggest contributors to the dirty vape pens in the country or in the state probably are the big commercial legal growers, honestly. You know, I know plenty of guys who make extract who can tell you that when they purchase trim from big commercial growers, like they say, they do the little quick test and they go, hey man, this passes on flower, it passes on trim, it doesn't pass on...

1:40:49SpeakerOn the extract, right? So capitalism will be capitalism. It'll do what it does, whether you're a small farmer or a big farmer, right? But the plant is a plant and it's a commodity to a lot of people. And it's now an international commodity. And all these testing standards and stuff that we kind of established here in California, Alec, you had a lot to do with like being a pioneer on testing.

1:41:11SpeakerThey're now being adopted by the entire world. CFU counts and stuff like that. I mean, the whole world now wants all cannabis to be irradiated, right? Because they didn't see the opportunity. It's like, you know, or they set the land, the standard, like Australia's standard and Great Britain's standard is 50 CFU. That's it, right? That's it, man. So it's like, that's how is their pesticide testing?

1:41:38SpeakerYeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's, it's onerous, you know, and, and that's the point is that like we, we have, you know, we have to constantly navigate that intersection between ag and culture and our, and our community. And honestly, you know, the way I see it going is it is just going to be, it's a commercial crop now. So we have, you know, we got to think that way and at the same time, protect it.

1:42:01SpeakerAnd protect the small farmer and create premium products and stuff so we're not stuck in a weird commodity world. You know, it's like $5 wine, $50 wine, $500 wine. That's common in the grape growing world. But cannabis is just like a baseline that goes a little bit over and below. And that's where there's a lot of opportunity. But yeah, no, it's a mess. And ATN brought up Hoplite and Viroid.

1:42:28SpeakerYou know, now lab shopping for Hoplite and Viroid is a thing. It's like this kind of weird self-defeatist kind of thing where people are now choosing the most beneficial COA for their own needs at that moment. Versus what does the whole community, what is the entire like ag state of California need cannabis to be? I mean, they could have attacked Hop Layton five years ago and eradicated it by now if they approached it like they do other crops.

1:42:59SpeakerYou know, it was a relatively simple approach. I wanted to raise my hand because since Kevin's here, you know, I had sent him some samples through the years of hop lane viroid and it honestly scared the crap out of me and made me rethink everything. And, you know, Kevin, you went pretty deep on it with that sample and then found other samples around the country and world, I believe, and kind of went on a tear.

1:43:26SpeakerYou know, do you believe that viroids are playing a role in How we're getting a lot of these products to market in terms of why they're getting, you know, botrytis is such a big deal and powdery mildew and so on and so forth. Do you think their immune systems of these plants are being compromised and therefore All these other things are happening as a result is that a yeah there's definitely a genetic component to this too and that there are plants out there that seem to keep this in the roots and it's unclear whether they have a yield impact and that that's what was shown in the hop industry too that they have plants that have marginal five percent impact on on volatiles and those that have like 40 percent right so it it depending on your cultivar it can it can it can crater yield so If you've got a plant that suffers from it and it's in the canopy, then you've probably got to get rid of those.

1:44:24SpeakerBut I think the problem we've seen is everyone's running around testing roots and you really got to test both, mainly because if you do that, you'll wipe out the plants that keep it in the roots, which are the ones that you want to retain. Those are the ones that are like tolerant of it. So we've got a few lines that we've been doing a lot of these experiments on.

1:44:44SpeakerAnd we can see that you can bring it completely into flower. The only thing that will differ with the plant that's infected versus not infected is it will turn purple on the ones that's infected. But you won't find it in the canopy. You'll only find it in the roots. You might find it in some green area of the canopy. But anywhere the anthocyanins are off, it is undetectable with PCR.

1:45:07SpeakerSo we've been encouraging people to like that particular line is Jamaican line and it's not necessarily a commercial line. It's an outdoor line that's a type two. So people have been trying to cross that into type ones to see if they can move the trait into something that's more relevant for like an indoor grow. But there is a risk there that if you hyper test and you only test the roots that you're going to weed out the plants that you might want to breed with.

1:45:31SpeakerSo, um, you have to be a little bit careful on, on like how you go about doing it there. And there, there was for a while, this period where everyone was just testing roots because it was always, it was more easy to find there. But, uh, that means that you're, you could be killing your moms that are likely to survive this. Uh, so the, the testing in the, in the canopy and in the roots, usually in veg and in flower is the way to really figure it out.

1:45:54SpeakerUm, because a lot of the plants that's undetectable until you pop it into flower. And then, and then if it's in the, if it's in the leaves in the canopy during flowering, probably you're going to have a yield issue. And it is very transmissible. It is not just from scissors. People are finding this in the water now. They've been doing testing. They can see it's in fertigation systems.

1:46:17SpeakerThere's some papers suggesting hop stunt viroid, which is very similar, moves around in fusarium spores. So that can go through mycelium networks if you're in the same root zone, spores that can move it around potentially. We have seen it in pollen. Now, interesting thing about pollen is if we take hoplite and varied positive pollen and pop it onto these plants that are known to keep it in the roots, the seeds that come out of that are clean.

1:46:44SpeakerThere's like 2%, 3% of them that are positive once you germinate them, but most of them come out clean. So there are other studies others have done, I think, in Arizona with plants that are more susceptible to this and their seed ratios are much hotter. They're like 40, 30 or 40 percent of the seeds that they pop are end up positive. But those are plants that are known to not suppress it into just the roots, but they're known for it to go into the entire plant.

1:47:09SpeakerThere's nothing you can do much to treat this, so I don't know that it's going to cause a pesticidal lab shopping issue. Maybe there's people running around trying to get C of A's that show it's not there, like in a nursery setting or something. But in most people we interact with, they want the sensitivity dialed up so hot that it finds single molecules. Which again is something I caution in that if you have plants that are keeping this suppressed at a really late CT and PCR, that means it's very low in copy number.

1:47:37SpeakerTheir immune system may be functioning with it fine. You may have a yield loss. It may be a risk that it can move. But, you know, there's a big difference between plants that are hot at a CT of 20 versus plants that are hot at a CT of 30. That's about a, NCTs is like, what is that? That's going to be a million. Didn't we, we saw that with the, when we went on the wild goose chases, going through all the moms that I had trying to chase it.

1:48:03SpeakerAnd we thought at one point that a whole lot had been infected. And then we, we kept on testing and all of a sudden it just wasn't there anymore. Yeah, you had some that are out of past 30 and we're just like, hold on, don't kill those. Your plant might just get rid of it. Yeah, I went on it, guys. I went on a bender. Yeah, yeah.

1:48:22SpeakerAnd I think that's important. You want quantitative tests because, you know, something has presence absence on this. You're not going to have that level of information. Yeah. But the difference between 20 and 30 is actually a thousand fold. Sorry. So it's a thousand fold difference in the thyroid concentration in the plant. And so if your plant's keeping it out at really low numbers, I'm curious about that plant.

1:48:43SpeakerI want to breed with that plant because it's suppressing it as opposed to taking this kind of chop all your moms down and start over thing because then we lose all the genetics out there. And it may end up setting us back as opposed to moving us forward. Yeah, I had a plant, Kevin, that I tried. I tried to infect a plant that was just always wouldn't test.

1:49:04SpeakerAnd I tried to infect it. I was actually grafting it. I was like pouring, actually run off into the roots. And it still would test negative. And then another friend that has that same plant just recently tested positive. I'm not sure what the count was, but the plant is healthy as can be. And it's one of those typhoid Mary kind of, you know, really asymptomatic plants. But what I've noticed is that the slower rooting plants that have some type of a fungal issue, like every dudded plant that like really, really heavy dudded flower, when I rip open the crown, there's always some type of a fungal thing going on there.

1:49:43SpeakerSo that relationship, I'd really love to hear more about how that hop latent and fungal moving. Yeah, when they're, when they're really hot with hop late and virate, there's often fusarium and pythium around. So, um, we, we try to, we try to scan for those too, but the, um, you know, when we're, when we're doing these challenge studies, um, for a while, the field was just grinding up hop late and virate positive plants and then trying to, you know, abrade, you know, put those onto the leaves with some injury.

1:50:12SpeakerBut when you do that, you don't know what else you're introducing. You could be inducing the Pythium and the Fusarium. And so to solve that, you really have to isolate hoplite and viroids. So we went and actually synthesized a circular form of this thing. So we're now like the Wuhan of the fucking hoplite and viroid because we made the damn thing. But when you do that, you can get rid of all the other unknowns.

1:50:32SpeakerYou can inject it into plants at like, you know, 700 billion copies on an injection and these plants don't take it, right? So You're never going to get that from a mite or an insect or any of these leafhoppers. They're just not going to move that much thyroid around. But we can take some of these plants and really hammer them with direct injection of 700 billion of these molecules and they don't end up getting positive.

1:50:56SpeakerSo there are ones out there that are tolerant to this thing. They're positive in the roots like two weeks after flowering. So it's in there. We can see it. The CT starts to creep a little bit south on us when it starts going into flowering, but it never ends up in the canopy. So there's a set of plants out there that we've got to keep our eye on that are going to breed us out of this thing.

1:51:18SpeakerAnd the clear cutting approach of any positivity, any signal at all, I think it's going to be really dangerous because we're going to end up basically obliterating all of these plants that you mentioned. If you see any one speck of this anywhere in the plant, kill it. It's like, I don't think that's how this is going to work. There's going to be some plants out there that can dance around it.

1:51:40SpeakerYeah, we have we even saw like Mojave. We saw one of the strawberry cough plants that I've had for like, I don't know, 18, 19 years that that you would never think that that would have anything if you didn't test it. So that's that's the other part of this. It can be in the canopy and you not know it until flowering. Yeah. Yep. So definitely some instances there, but we're counting on you, Fletch, out there.

1:52:06SpeakerLet's get it. Let's get that gene pool sorted. We did see it with some of your leafhoppers, though. Yeah, that's true. That was interesting. So I had the UK cheese because I just kept it. I just wanted to keep studying what would happen with it as it went through its life cycle, knowing that it had hop laden. So I stuck it in a part of my property that is just like super isolated.

1:52:29SpeakerAnd then I thought, well, why don't I put like a small greenhouse here and put six plants in it that aren't that I know are absolutely clean because I saw leafhoppers. I was smoking a joint one day back there and I was just like watching these things just go boing. I was like, huh, I wonder if those are munching on that and then passing it around all these other plants around here.

1:52:48SpeakerAnd so I decided to put the greenhouse there. And sure enough, I sent Kevin the samples after, you know, week after week. And we kept testing and all of a sudden it was like nothing. And then, boom, it just hit for it. You know, there are I mean, it's you know, this isn't rocket science here, but it was confirming and it really made me feel, you know, like we needed to better understand more about the vectors than we thought, because that's it's not just

1:53:19SpeakerSo, you know, it's a lot of things that we're not paying attention to around us in the wild. And that's as outdoor growers, as a lot of us are, we don't know what's in our garden until it's far too late. So it's, you know, it's just good to know ahead of time that if you can test and use what Kevin's developed to help you I know that at scale, it would have been devastating what I went through to try to kind of go back and go through all the moms like I did, clean everything and then isolate them and then bring them back in.

1:53:58SpeakerAnd the amount of downtime that took was nuts. I mean, it just was really throwing everything out, cleaning and making sure I didn't touch something that had it on it still.

1:54:08Archive SeedsOh, and that's a good point. That's something I wanted to bring up earlier is, you know, some of these problems we're talking about, they may kind of self-correct themselves due to the economics of cannabis long term. Like a lot of these really big farms that particularly like you were just saying, going through these things is too expensive for them. That's why they use all these alternative methods, you know, pesticides, etc.

1:54:33Archive SeedsMost of the reason those farms still exist to this day is because of the export market, right? That's the only way they're staying alive, right? Because if they had to sell all that oil in California where they're growing it, they're out of business. There's not enough consumers. I mean, most, like even the thousand light grows. I mean, I know a lot of people that grow. Most of the really big grows in California, indoor grows, it's only trap packs keeping everybody alive, right?

1:55:01Archive SeedsThey can't sell all their flour into the legal market. And so a lot of this just may be a self-correcting issue where essentially when... When all the different markets have their own cultivation, like places like Massachusetts and Maryland and Florida used to be great export markets from California. Not so, I mean, people still do it, but it's not like it used to be. It used to be 100% of the product going there came from the traditional market.

1:55:32Archive SeedsAnd now a big portion of the consumers are buying from big legal farms. And depending on the state's laws, you may continue to have these issues. But in places like Washington and Oregon, pretty much all the most of the big grows are all shutting down. And it's happening in a lot of other places too. And I think Canada is a great example of it as well. Like, I mean, how many of those big $300 million, you know, 100 acre indoor grows that can be growth put up are still operational?

1:56:05Archive SeedsThey're not because the market finally becomes localized once the export exporting of all this excess product dissipates. And then now you have to satisfy local consumers, which are much more picky than people that don't have access in export markets.

1:56:25SpeakerWell said. And on that CDFA crop statistics report I mentioned earlier, there's about, you know, there's 10 or 15 or 20 crops that are 100% produced in California for export to either the rest of the country or even Considerable percentage to the world, right? And like Alec mentioned, all the best ag land is in the red zone. It's like the reality is this eventually turns into agriculture and plants.

1:56:54SpeakerIt's the economy of agriculture. You grow the plants that are best suited for a particular region for because of climate and input and infrastructure and the environment. So I noticed in the environment and all that and exactly and that's that's kind of what California was and what it will be and like I consult with people in places where and I say don't from the beginning I'm like this is an opportunity for you guys to be a part of cannabis right now but in the future this all goes away because for you to grow the way you do now where it costs you three dollars a gram four dollars a gram to produce It won't happen in the future when this has really grown as efficiently as it can be in places like California.

1:57:34Archive SeedsCan I ask you a question, Mojave? Yeah.

1:57:41Archive SeedsLike let's let's just say export markets don't exist right and you're just a producer in California what what percentage of the people growing like uh without an export like let's say the state was really good at enforcing the law and making sure that everything you grew in California had to be sold in California How many outdoor and greenhouse grows would there even need to be this? There's so many indoor lights in California, there'd be almost none existing on a localized consumer level.

1:58:14SpeakerAbsolutely. And we grow enough weed. Often we grow enough weed for all our neighbors just in our own backyards. You know, so it's it all goes away. And California is really good at that. They're actually really good at go. If you go to if you go to the CDFA and you say, hey, look, I want to grow this crop next year. They'll say, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

1:58:32SpeakerDo you know we grow a lot of that crop and you're probably not going to make that much money. And if you guys grow 20 percent or more of that crop, then the commodity price goes down. And they protect that. They protect the commodity. They protect the farmer. And they even have, I believe they even have mechanisms where they can even buy you out. Like, hey, look, you know, you're going to tank the raisin industry right now.

1:58:51SpeakerAnd we want to keep the prices at a certain point. And they subsidize you. They subsidize your farm in order to keep things like don't grow too much. It's bad for everyone. And they didn't do that with, I mean, they just wild, wild west, right? And they never really did the math, the very basic math of what is needed. And to me, that applies to the whole world, though, because eventually cannabis will be normalized.

1:59:17SpeakerIt will be regular. It'll be everywhere. And all these markets will have to adjust. They'll have to go like, hey, we did it for a while, but we don't do it anymore because now Mexico is online or, you know, California is back onto interstate commerce. It's all this big transition and it's just it's all temporary.

1:59:35Archive SeedsYeah. And there is this land somewhere else that doesn't have the red zone issue, et cetera. I mean, it's someone's going to find a better solution to do it cheaper, better, whatever, and access the market better. And in a lot of cases, you know, California is really just not competitive other than because, you know, cost of power, cost of land, cost of all these other things, you know, the pesticide, everything else.

1:59:57Archive SeedsI mean, I think, you know, Canada is probably not the best example because it's hard to grow lots of outdoor, relatively speaking there. But, you know, what percentage of the Canadian market, legal market is outdoor and greenhouse grown? I bet it's, I bet it's less than the indoor, whatever it is.

2:00:19SpeakerYeah.

2:00:21Archive SeedsAnd Holland, do you have any idea of what percentage in Canada it is?

2:00:26SpeakerI have no idea, but I know that if you, I mean, look at Holland, Holland still crushes it on ag export. They don't have the climate for it, but they said, this is where we're going to be. We're going to be a greenhouse controlled environment, agriculture country, and they nailed it. So it's like, you can be that. But if you're competing with a pound of flour grown in Vermont versus a pound of flour grown in California in 10 years, the costs are going to be very lopsided.

2:00:53SpeakerBut if you're talking about like a really beautifully grown bell pepper from Holland versus a really beautifully grown bell pepper from Canada, they can compete because they're both the same model, right?

2:01:05Archive SeedsBut neither of those business models that they have exist without export as well for all those bell peppers. Right. It's like they would never have that business if they're just selling locally. And that's kind of my point is once it once everybody can grow indoor everywhere legally to supply their local market, most people are going to try to take advantage of that for that for the financial reasons.

2:01:28Archive SeedsYou don't have that. Where's where's all this weed supposed to go to third world countries that buy weed for less than you can produce it for in California? No way. It's not happening. It's going to go the other way.

2:01:40SpeakerWhat if, I mean, hypothetically, like, what if cannabis, like, is only $50 a pound for beautiful sun-grown outdoor cannabis? And then all of a sudden, all the indoor has to rethink about, like, whoa, whoa, what kind of brands are we supporting with this high cost? Isn't that what happens?

2:01:58Archive SeedsYou're only focusing on your customer base at that point. That's it. You've got your brand. They like what you do. You've figured out a profit margin that works for them and you as a manufacturer, and that's all you get.

2:02:10SpeakerMojave reminds me of strawberries in the 80s, late 70s, early 80s, how they had to figure out how to chop California up and then export it and figure out cold chain and do all that. There's actually a girl I met that's got a he has a farm in in Santa Barbara called Farming First. He runs it and he comes from that world. And he talked a lot about his cost per pound to me when I first met him.

2:02:32SpeakerAnd I just was blown away that. He was thinking about the minute details of everything that we're speaking about along the supply chain and what that cost structure was of that pound and how that fit within the larger model in which he was creating. And it just literally was like a blow of wind and my hair was flying behind me. I was like, wow, you're, you know, you're...

2:02:54SpeakerYou're a futurist. You've been thinking about this. And now Driscoll's is all over the world. They're growing in Australia. They're growing in greenhouses in Japan. So it's like they took that. They're like, yeah, we have to export this model. Yeah, but it's a really interesting model in terms of agriculture because it's sort of our dichotomy of like, how do we grow enough? But how do we get it to people so it's fresh?

2:03:17SpeakerAnd then how is it clean? Because strawberries are some of the dirtiest, you know, Dirtiest fruits in the world, let's just call it that.

2:03:27Archive SeedsI think we got one big issue for cannabis. I think we got one big issue. 10% of the people smoke weed and 100% of the people eat food. The volume we need to produce is a fraction tiny compared to what the ag industry actually looks like. I mean, most of these business models that people think are going to work are never going to work in the future once the playing field has been leveled worldwide.

2:03:57SpeakerYeah, no, I agree, man. I think what you're alluding to is a very simplistic thing that I've alluded. I've got I've landed on often, which is we've got it all wrong. Right. And we're kind of we're kind of in the middle of how do we go forward and how do we do this? Thank you so much for joining us.

2:04:38SpeakerThe same plan, right? Everyone's got to walk together, so to speak, right? Otherwise, it's like if one guy's over here spraying Eagle 20 and the other guy's, you know, growing perfectly and then, you know, they both go to market and they're lab shopping to get their products and they both get to market somehow, you know, it's a problem. So that's my piece.

2:04:59Archive SeedsLike Mojave alluded to, the control that every other industry has figured out is subsidies and, and, and, uh, um, Growers unions, right? That's it. Where they control their supply chain. That's it. We control how much you grow, what you can sell for. You can't fuck it up for all of us. That's the only thing that's worked for everything else for the last 100 years, essentially. Without that, farming in America is done.

2:05:28Archive SeedsJohn Deere tractors in America, done. All done without subsidies and growers unions.

2:05:34SpeakerYeah, you're striking a chord with me because I, you know, I come from the, you know, I worked in film for a number of years and that's, you know, there's film unions for a reason because when you call a gaffer and you need somebody to light your set, they, you know, you have reliable people that you can call to come. You need a reliable grower that can come and grow.

2:05:52SpeakerThat really makes a lot of sense to me. But there is, you know, there's a lot of conversation in between that. I don't know if it's as simple as saying we need just a union, but I do think there's, I like what you said there because we do need to, we need to have checks and balances, right? We need to have people that if we're going to bring in to pay them a fee to consult or be on the team, there needs to be some sort of results or some sort of You know, checks and balances, man, behind why they're there.

2:06:23SpeakerSo I think you're, yeah, you're striking chords with me on that, man. But I just don't know how we would put it together. You know, if I could kind of weigh in real quick, you know, you know, just thinking about cannabis as like this idea of this national and international export, you know, eventually, right, whenever there's been this, you You know, opening up of interstate commerce and kind of like what's happening in Canada, Colombia and elsewhere where it's like internationally exporting.

2:06:53SpeakerRight. But, you know, I mean. I think there's the regional I think you're hitting a part of it, you know, it's like there's the Appalachian region realities of kind of where cannabis does grow best and also practices around understanding how to care for it to the point of consumer purchase, to where you can actually preserve the most precious aromatic attributes that define The quality of it when it comes to the most sophisticated understanding of the value of what it is versus pure biomass, right?

2:07:23SpeakerWhere all the aromatics are gone, right? And it's reduced then to a point of THC, but it can still be distilled. It can still, you know, be made into other types of products, right? But, you know, I think kind of the idea of like the leveling of playing field, you know, I think it happens within each state within, and I think it happens with this ongoing dialogue and what we, Like in each area we're in, I'm just proud of understanding how the differentiator really exists because, you know, it's like you can't just, I mean, you know, such a big reason why in Oklahoma there's such a high percentage of indoor farms versus outdoor farms is because you can't grow outdoor in Oklahoma because of how toxified the environment is because of the last, you know, multiple decades of agriculture.

2:08:09SpeakerYou know, and the amount of erosion and the amount of heavy metals that blown around in the wind, you couldn't even pass a test, you know? And I think that speaks for a lot of the United States. I think that speaks for a lot of the world where agriculture happens, right? What, you know, cannabis is helping to expose like what you did to the land, you know?

2:08:29SpeakerAnd so it's like, if there is... You know, this actual kind of like rallied for, lobbied for kind of, you know, I mean, because just speaking for California as example, California helped, you know, kind of established at the time, you know, I mean, because it's not about going so far, just like each state or each country building on the next to make it even more and more strict.

2:08:48SpeakerIt's about testing for the sake of public, like maximizing public health and safety and You know, but like not putting such ridiculous regulations over the top on it to where you have to gamma radiate sterilize all your weed and terp zap everything. So now you are again reduced to a commodity, you know, but it's like there are testing regulations that are rallied for and lobbied for that help kind of I think that's one of the biggest things that those closest to the plant have like such a competitive advantage, you know, of knowledge and awareness around where to find lands.

2:09:22SpeakerYou know, so many people spend millions of dollars. You know, I feel like the more hubris people come in with thinking they're just going to make a bunch of money is proportional to how quick they face plant. You know, you see it on a corporate level, you see it on, you know, kind of all these huge multi hundreds of million dollar losses and face plants that have happened because this isn't just another Thank you so much for joining us.

2:09:59SpeakerCannabis, it's like agriculture. It's a very perishable product. In 30, 40 days of it sitting at or above 70 degrees temperature or the higher you get from there, the quicker it happens. The whole incredible loss factor of all volatile aromatics that define the quality. I feel like in each state, no individual cultivator or manufacturer, I think that's Working with the flower is even ready for interstate commerce.

2:10:30SpeakerThey haven't even in their own state figured out how to preserve their terps, preserve what they have in their possession. It's like keep the cabbage in the fridge. It's like what happens in two weeks of just fucking that off and just allowing kind of it to just... Thank you so much for joining us.

2:11:15SpeakerAny farm on like big ag or big tobacco. I mean, I just like it's and this plan, what's happening with it is the antithesis of what they've done and what they do and what they know, you know. And so so I think kind of, you know, being able to kind of, you know, on that idea of like, You know, once this opens up and it's direct to consumer kind of in ways kind of like wine and the wine model, I mean, it's like, you know, across all testing we've ever performed, there's like, you know, it's about 1.4% total terp content in dried flower and then all the other, you know, non-tested trace volatile aromatics that are even more volatile than the terps.

2:11:54SpeakerBut the potential one is most sticky, chronic. You can stick it to a window. It's like 3% to 5.5%. And it's also, is there integrity in the testing lab? A lot of testing labs are like 9% terps every time. So it's about the real quality of the data. But the reality is 60% to 80% of all terps and all the volatile aromatics are gone by the time most herb is on dispensary shelves or retail shelves or gas station shelves with some HHCs.

2:12:23SpeakerYou know, but, you know, kind of like we've seen this like really incredible thing happening in Oregon and in California where people have figured out like this continued cold supply chain of custody where they like, you know, have very actively monitor and like ensure like the rapidness to market, you know, because the average batch takes like 30, 45 days to make a dispensary shelves. Thank you so much.

2:12:59SpeakerYou know, and I think that's a big reason why people are just like, there's a market for the juicing of like all these butterscotch flavors and all these other things because nobody can, everybody's like running around. There's no brand loyalty. Everybody's just chasing their tails, trying to buy something that tastes or flavorful or has any type of uniqueness to it, you know? And so, but the thing is, is, you know, we, I think a lot of the Oregon farmers, you know, kind of like made it through the collapse and kind of the like now rebuilding, you know, it's like they've, they've, They begin to substantially quickly be able to differentiate and build brand loyalty and sell it quicker than it's trimmed at the highest price the market can bear in the deepest floods.

2:13:37SpeakerAnd California, it's happening too. Because those people, they like, instead of continuously doubling down on production, Thank you for joining us.

2:14:03SpeakerAnd like ancestral awareness, you know, around those working with the plant and they give a shit, you know, that, you know, is kind of, you know, areas where in each individual state people can really You know, I feel like that's what, you know, Oregon's shown. It's like, and in California, it's like, that's how you build resilience because at least what you have when it's not selling as quick is super preserved and you can always kind of be on that highest end, you know, and then, you know, you can figure out how to differentiate and how to like bring their terps like hundreds of percent more present, you know, than anything else on the market.

2:14:40Speakeryou know and then kind of i think you know being able to just like identify and work with you know people you know because because that's the thing it's like the the you know now that testing integrity is coming back in california and everybody's freaked out that they're going to get caught up in recalls or uh reputational damage scenarios because of being associated with a lab you know they're like it's shifting people's priorities around like hey maybe if i'm paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to a lab Maybe I should work with the lab that's going to set me up for success, you know, and I think that's really what testing and kind of, you know, offers, you know, with, you know, being able to help, you know, kind of ensure you don't fail, you know, and then don't set up for massive fail scenarios by, you know, making sure you're not introducing hop late and viral or aspergillus to cultivation and being able to kind of, you know, like, So, you know, identify the land you're working on or before you purchase like a cut flower greenhouse, you know, see what kind of problems are going to haunt you, you know, and choose like, you know, but I think a lot of these things are the biggest differentiating factors that as testing regulations really set in.

2:15:43SpeakerYou know, and the integrity in it is happening because you're seeing just the whole like lab fraudulent thing. It's like it's a national topic in every state and it's huge news, you know, and it's I think the more that there becomes integrity in that and states kind of build their own testing labs and test the testers, it's going to help really like In the long run, help individual groups be able to differentiate and survive in a state.

2:16:08SpeakerAnd then as it goes national and even more international, like have the biggest, you know, differentiating factors because heavy metal testing in California, nobody's ever in the United States have had heavy metal testing in place. You know, like in Europe, they have really, you know, 10 years ago, they put in really strict heavy metal testing requirements and the international cacao market. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:16:52SpeakerYou know, mountainous grown cacao with other cacao to kind of make sure that they don't fail just so they can sell into the European Union. You know, the only other people in the United States that have ever figured that out are cannabis farmers in California. You know, it's like because because heavy metal testing has been implemented, nothing in the United States has been that way. So, I mean, that's I think a huge difference, you know, The ability to survive in a export market, I think in areas where testing and public health and safety is going to be a thing, I think is going to be ultimately the biggest thing that helps the culture and those like that give a shit about the plant survive.

2:17:28SpeakerAnd it's going to keep out the kooks, you know, and these like, you know, hubristic dudes that are just face planting left and right.

2:17:35Dr Mark ScialdoneAlec, I want to go back to something that you had said earlier. You know, you were talking about closed loop extraction. And concentrating. So like you could you could run a clean test on flower material that that would look clean and would pass. But then when you extract that material, you would actually see now things failing because you're you're concentrating, you know, the oily cuticle off the plant.

2:18:04Dr Mark ScialdoneSo like like I'm looking at some data here. So

2:18:10Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's, I mean, and you're probably more aware of this than anyone else on this panel is that the level of sophistication of our analytical toolbox has increased exponentially in like the last 10 to 15 years, right? Like we can see picograms now. We can see things that, you know, again, I used to use the analogy of taking a lint brush to a New York City sidewalk We're going to find everything.

2:18:42Dr Mark ScialdoneYou can't necessarily put the spec at zero PPM, right? Because beyond PPM, there's what? That's PPB, and then you go down to parts per trillion. So the thing I wanted to show you, I wanted to pull up some recent data of mine. So we're able to make We're able to make a check this out, dude, because even like a handful of years ago on Hash Church, we were talking about this and we were still in like the low 90s.

2:19:17Dr Mark ScialdoneBut we could routinely produce from clean flour that test clean for heavy metals that test clean for pesticides. We can routinely produce a live resin where the THC total is is in the high 70s. Total cannabinoids is about 91%. Total terpenes in these live resin sauces are like seven and a half percent. When you add up these percentages, man, there ain't a whole lot left, man. It's like, like on Hash Church, like I knew we were on maybe like about four or five years ago, right, Mark?

2:19:52Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd we were talking about, you know, what is that last little bit? Like, how can we find out like, and you know, Ian Oswald and those guys down at Abstracts, Basically now teasing out all these volatile sulfur components. So if I add volatile sulfur components onto my live resin that I'm testing 99, 99 plus. So when I just take the terpenes alone, add that to the cannabinoids, and this is from a third party lab, I'm at like 99 plus percentage.

2:20:26Dr Mark ScialdoneSo I've characterized 99% of what's in my jar. To me, I mean, that's just right from where we were just even like four or five years ago.

2:20:38SpeakerI had current extraction and not live resin kind of, you know, yeah, there's been.

2:20:42Dr Mark ScialdoneBut that's fucking huge. Like there's like no big unknown in there. I mean, again, what's that?

2:20:51SpeakerNo, sorry, because I mean, if you look at the anatomy of a bud, you know, primarily cannabinoids within the glandular trichomes and resin, right? Primarily cannabinoids followed by the primary and secondary terps, right? Which really five to nine of them really constitute a majority of what is there, you know, that could be in flour. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

2:21:36SpeakerSo much of the flavor and aroma aspects, right?

2:21:40Dr Mark ScialdoneBasically, the point I'm trying to make here is that, yeah, I mean, to me, we're real close to describing 100% of everything that's in the jar. Like there's no like, Mystery Oil or weird shit from like 10 years ago.

2:21:57SpeakerParts per 100, but you're looking at parts. Some of these pesticides are down in parts per thousand, you know, another decimal place over or parts per million, which is even further, right? So we're getting close though, right, Kevin?

2:22:08Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, it seems like, again, so what I'm trying to illustrate, which I don't think I'm doing a good job at describing.

2:22:15SpeakerWe're better at quantitating, yeah.

2:22:16Dr Mark ScialdoneNot only has there been an increase in the level of, Precision and accuracy of what we can test for in cannabis products, including down to the PPB and PPT levels. But extraction has really become, you know, really, I think it's come a long way. I mean, to where- Black hash oil, crude, to kind of like- Yeah, I mean, just open blasting with mystery oil and God knows what else within that crap.

2:22:48Dr Mark ScialdoneI remember when Indra used to be on, remember Marcus, when Indra would, We come on hash church and we would try to talk to him about testing. And he was always kind of really guarded because he thought that his process was somehow unique when really passing a hydrocarbon solvent over You know, cannabis and extracting the oleal resin. Well, that's pretty, pretty much like making drip coffee.

2:23:14BubblemanI mean, I thought the one thing he did that was novel was dimple the inside of his reactor to create cavitation and eliminate channeling. That impressed me.

2:23:26Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, I guess I was never able to see like a set of data that showed the impact that that had either in productivity or resin quality. But from what I remember, because I used to always have conversations about him about testing. And that's when this whole mystery oil thing was coming into play. And it was always thought of that. Well, if you're multiply distilling your solvent, you're constantly taking just the bottles off.

2:23:54Dr Mark ScialdoneBut could there be in your, in your early fractions, if you don't do multiple distillations, could there be that mystery oil, the crap from the lubrication of the couplings, you know, when they're handling hydrocarbon solvents and other shit, you remember that stuff, Alec, we were talking about that years ago on hash church, trying to figure out like what that last little few percent of some oligomeric fluorine polymer bullshit that Thank you for joining us.

2:24:46SpeakerAll of these biologically active effects, entourage, cannabinoid stuff. But then there's all these other part per billion, part per trillion, part per thousand type level compounds that are there in tiny fraction the level of terpenes, but clearly have substantial effects on adding aroma or flavor. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:25:31SpeakerAnd, you know, that I wanted to bring up a story about the Emerald Cup with that I thought was really fascinating because we extended this year, you know, because, you know, over the last few years we've been, we'll test, you Chemotype, Cannab Terps, you know, of all the entrants, you know, help to sort by aroma and flavor, right? In this way, grouping like with like, right? So Jack and Hayes, Jack and Hayes, Tropical Floral, Tropical Floral, Awesomeen, right?

2:25:58SpeakerGas, desserts, sweet and dream types, exotic, right? So we've, we had that, right? You know, but it was really interesting because over the last couple of years, we started to see this really fascinating trend, right? Because historically, tangy, right? The smell of tangy, forbidden fruit, calio, Agent Orange, right? It's myrcene, really, really high myrcene, low every other terpene, right? Very distinct smell, right? And it's actually... It's not a terp, right?

2:26:25SpeakerIt's these tropical sulfur type compounds that Abstracts is describing, you know, but what's actually interesting about those is, you know, and this is just a pure observation from my nose and just smell of cannabis over the years. I don't think it's that volatile. I think it actually sticks. I think it's one of the ones that's like really heavy and it sticks around like as all the terps go away, right?

2:26:47SpeakerIt's super present smell across, You know, these, these, these, these, these different profiles. But the point I wanted to make was, you know, so historically, right, there's all these Tangi, Forbidden Fruit, You know, Calliope, Agent Orange types that they're always in the sweet and dream category. But over the last couple of years in the Emerald Cup, we started observationally anecdotally through our nose and through the judge's nose.

2:27:11SpeakerWe started to see the smell popping up in other primary terpene categories. So we'd see it popping up in the dessert category over the last couple of years. The dessert category, caryophylline, limonene, like which is a lot of the gelato, wedding cake, Sunday driver type strains. So those Um, like all of a sudden there's mimosa, right? There's, um, um, Tropicana, uh, there's, there's sangria, right? And those are, and those are strains that wash really well in hash making.

2:27:41SpeakerAnd that's, and those are the caryophylline, limonene strains. And that smell starts showing up there. But then also like this year, like we, we even saw, um, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:28:20SpeakerYou know, kind of where science, you know, cause a lot of these compounds too, like in flower, like in extract, sure, you might be able to start testing them, but in flower, they're like undetectable, you know, by most, even most sensitive instrumentation, you know, and, and even, and for what it's worth, a lot of these aromatics, they don't even make it through harvest because people are harvesting in the middle of the day and the hottest times outside of the Kelvin cycle where the off gassing of the aromatics happen in the early part of the day.

2:28:48SpeakerAnd so, so I think kind of, you know, and, and also how people dry, you know, a lot of these really precious aromatics don't make it through. I think some of them, like the tangy notes, they make it through past when the terpenes go. But, but my point is, is this year in the Emerald Cup, you know, everything with terp sorted, that gets anonymized, presented the judges within its own category.

2:29:09SpeakerSo like red stickers, the propylene, Jack and Hayes types. But, you know, but this year, because we, you know, we noticed that that smell of tangy, like that, that citrus hint, it was, it was, it was probably, there was probably as many of that smell entered as there were at like OG and gas and the whole competition. And what was so funny, it was everybody was entering it thinking it was exotic.

2:29:34SpeakerThey were entering it into what they were calling the exotic, you know, because we get, you know, the Emerald Cup opens for people to be able to kind of put what they think category it should be in. And everybody was entering Tangy and stuff and Mimosa is exotic. And, you know, and so it turned out to be like as much or more as the whole gas category.

2:29:53SpeakerSo so basically all the judges after the anonymized sort presentation presented the data. In our judges kits, when everybody was going through, you know, all of the judges were empowered to take, you know, with their nose, you know, single out any that smelled citrusy, note it, and single out any that smelled truly exotic to them and mark it. And so, yeah, so we created its own terpene class, you know, that we're going to be presenting through the data.

2:30:22SpeakerLike that was, you know, the judge, you know, the... So that's kind of the consensus of the data of like the judge's picks of the smell, you know, kind of correlating and those kind of being going into their own category and and then judged within that category. And because basically there was a tremendous amount of the entries that were in the myrcene category. There was a tremendous amount of those entries that were in the caryophylline limonene dessert category.

2:30:49SpeakerAnd there was a couple that were in the terpenylene category. So yeah, but take a look to Mark's point here on the percentages. So the abstracts folks have presented to Cam at a couple years now. And what's really cool about data is how low concentration these things are and how pungent they are. Right there, this is the VSC3 in the Basio Gelato. I'm just the one that's got the highest olfactory score is micrograms per meg.

2:31:16SpeakerAnd that's, so micrograms per meg, it's about one in a thousand. Micrograms are 10 to the minus six, megs are 10 to the minus third. So that's a 10 to the minus three effect there. And they're talking about 10 to the minus two of that. So that's like one part per a hundred thousand creating one of the highest olfactory scores. So it's just fascinating. These sulfur compounds are really, really potent in terms of a human's nose to pick them up.

2:31:40Dr Mark ScialdoneLike orders of magnitude, right? Two orders of magnitude, right?

2:31:45SpeakerSeveral, yeah. I mean, the terps are in the percentages, which are parts per hundred. We're talking parts per thousand, so like a thousand times more potent. Yeah, no, and that's the beauty of the human nose and the olfactory.

2:31:59Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, olfactory spectroscopy, man.

2:32:01SpeakerYeah, it's the most sensitive mass spectrometer on the planet, you know, and that's what's really cool about kind of the thing with the Ammo Cup is like to, you know, be able to, you know, as science is kind of helping to define some of these things, be able to take and push the system based on our own nose and ability to kind of sort things, these categories.

2:32:19SpeakerBut that's what's really fascinating to me, Kevin, and, and, uh, And Dr. Mark, you know, is just how some of these super trace part per billion, whatever level compounds that are there, like in this sulfuric world, you know, there's the gas, which to me, like from own anecdotes and just data, what I've seen, the gas note goes away way quicker than the terps do. Right. As opposed to the tangy note, which observationally stays way longer as the terps go away.

2:32:53SpeakerSo I think some type of correlation there.

2:32:56Dr Mark ScialdoneCouldn't there be kind of like a like I always when I think about terpenes and the odor of cannabis, I always think of a symphony. Right. So if you think like there could be. A couple of violins and there could be, you know, a couple of violas. And really, I mean, like if you think about it, like, so yeah, you have valensine, right? Which is not limonene, right?

2:33:21Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, so an interesting thing about valensine, valensine, if you open a bottle of it, it smells just like Valencia oranges. But when you, when you take, so valensine is a sesquiterpenoid, And or it's a sesquiterpene actually. And when it oxidizes up to the sesquiterpenoid nucleotone, it changes it to grapefruit. So it's so fucking cool thinking that again, valensine can basically convert to a more grapefruit note just on oxidation.

2:34:00Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd that might Thank you for joining us.

2:34:17SpeakerAnd if I could just give a quick shout out to Skunk Man Sam and Rob Clark on the aroma story here. We always wanted to define what skunk was, right, for a long time. Like, what does the skunk smell? Because we knew it wasn't a terp. And Rob and I wrote an article for Cannabis Business Times in 2018, where we pointed out that we couldn't say it was in cannabis because we don't have a lab and we didn't do any of that.

2:34:44SpeakerBut we found the literature in hops that that vials were in hops and the skunky odor in beer that goes off. is a file so we we put that out there but but one of the points that was interesting is it was also a file that was being created through photo decomposition so it was in it was in the hop it's in the hops we know that it's in the war it's in the brew but in green beer green bottled beer like heineken and becks and all these german imports That gets photo decomposition and that creates even more files.

2:35:21SpeakerWhen you crack that top and you smell that skunky aroma, that's photo decomposition. So I guess to Alex's point is that it is actually possibly, not only is it in there, but it's also continuing to be created in the plant itself, in the cure over time. I don't know, but that was just an interesting, the way where I got that is when I moved to Amsterdam in 93 and the first time I opened up a brown bottle Heineken, And took a drink.

2:35:47SpeakerI was like, this isn't Heineken. This is a totally different beer. And then I found out that all Heineken that goes export to the US goes in a green bottle because it's a thing. And all Heineken domestically goes into a brown bottle because brown bottles block out the light that causes that skunky odor. And so the hop world had studied that and researched it and knew all about it.

2:36:09SpeakerAnd it was kind of like a little inside joke about the skunkiness in beer. And how it was a green bottle thing. So anyway, I think that's just that's interesting. It's it's there's the nose nose and it's just constantly changing is also the problem, right? All I was going to point out is the structure of these things. Some of you may be familiar with these look like the precursors to the terpene pathway that are getting dilated.

2:36:32SpeakerYeah, so there's I don't know how, you know, maybe it's enzymatic, maybe it's maybe it's light, but it's it's definitely an interesting whole new arena in the cannabis field.

2:36:45Dr Mark ScialdoneNo, they're pre-related sulfides. And so obviously isoprene is the starting material for that, Kevin. It might be... IDP, right? Yeah, it might be... Right, right. With a phosphate on there. But yeah, it's super interesting to think about where does that sulfur come from? Because biological sulfur is something that is an atom of economy. I mean, Mother Nature uses sulfur all the time, right? It's in cysteine, methionine, right?

2:37:21Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so I was thinking like, because if you look at one of those compounds, if you could pull up those structures again, Kevin, one of those compounds is actually a, it's got a C5 thiol in it, and it's actually optically active. Okay, no, not, it was the previous, That is structures. One of those structures is actually optically active. And it could basically be, again, some kind of cysteine or homocysteine kind of pathway.

2:37:56Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, no, those aren't the ones neither. It might be from their more recent work.

2:38:01GmlOkay.

2:38:02Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. But yeah, so again, just going back to the overall theme, though, is that Is that between extraction and between analysis of extracted product, we're getting pretty damn close, right? I mean, we're getting able to be able to measure, you know, between the lines of like what are in these products. And that's where it's like, I don't know, Alec, if you participated with Josh Swider, that group down there that they've had to basically help them.

2:38:38Dr Mark ScialdoneIn this lawsuit that's happening in California where I forget what the name of the dispensaries, but there's a group of dispensaries down south that are basically have a class action lawsuit against hemp producers for bringing, you know, hemp derived THC and THCA products into the state of California. They're claiming of, you know, losing market share and just, you know, not, Proper testing, you know, residual solvents, you know, THC isomers that are in there.

2:39:11Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, so in one way, in one way, testing is really kind of like the bad news in the industry, right? It's the bad news. It's that there's unsworthy, you know, basically producers that are producing all kinds of shit because people want to get fucking high. And I don't ever think it was the intention of the United States Congress. To sign the farm bill, I believe they were snookered on fiber and seeds and oil.

2:39:44Dr Mark ScialdoneThey were, like you said, Alec, you hit the nail on the head. They were not thinking about drug variety, cannabinoids, and they didn't even contemplate how to bring CBD to market because CBD is the active ingredient of Epidiolex, which is an FDA approved drug.

2:40:01SpeakerSo it's just a low key legalized cannabis and created two totally different regulating platforms, you know, which is really fucked and needs to be buttoned up, you know, but the, you know, I think it's, it's, it's really interesting to see how close, how like to your extraction point, just how much kind of it went from, I feel like the correlation of the nail and the, the, The little buckets, you know, kind of, and how much you see the sharp, like increase in quality, you know, from like the black hash oil knife hits on stoves to kind of the live resin or live rosin and, you know, getting to, you know, the most preserved essence of the plant, you know, and how volatile a lot of these compounds are, you know, and, and, and, you know, I have a lot of questions around kind of, You know, the idea of like effect, you know, and how entourage and, you know, kind of the uniqueness of different highs comes about, you know, how much terpenes play a role and how much these very trace part per billion, part per trillion level flavorant or aromatic agents kind of play a role.

2:40:59SpeakerBut either way, it's like when they're gone, you know, it's like the further out the cannabiterp ratio goes, you know, kind of, You know, whenever you, when it's most chronic and you got 3% terps and you got 15% flower THC or 20% or 25% or 30%, you know, it's like a 10 to one or closer cannabid terp ratio. You know, the presence of influence on entourage effect is substantial.

2:41:19SpeakerThe preservation of these aromatics and all these other trace volatiles, you know, all kind of are, you know, in their most present form, you know, but when that is compromised and goes to a hundred to one cannabid terp ratio, like most of what is on the dispensary shelves, You know, in retail markets, especially retail markets where people have to gamma irradiate and zap their turps just to be able to sell it.

2:41:41SpeakerYou know, it's like, that's herbal distillate. That's like, there's no, you know, there's no turps. There's no anything. It's might as well, you know, I mean, so, so I think, you know, kind of ended, sorry, a bunch of things I'm bringing up, but like, I think ultimately, yeah, no, I totally just got lost in the sauce there. But overall, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think... Is it ever for folks to close this hemp loophole?

2:42:06SpeakerI mean, what's the... I think that's the biggest thing we need to do like that. Because I feel like the word industrial hemp is such a misused word. And I think until we get to the crux of that, you know, then we're not going to be able to differentiate or define, you know, kind of the hemp. Because right now you have like hundreds of liters of... Just call them CBD.

2:42:28SpeakerJust call them CBD whores. That's all they are is CBD of ours.

2:42:33BubblemanIt's no longer hemp industry. Hemp oil hustlers. I will say this about it. We had hemp in Canada.

2:42:37SpeakerConverted oils making the market, cutting all the THC in the market, and it's just destroying the whole thing. Go ahead, Marcus. Sorry.

2:42:45BubblemanJust going to say about the hemp, industrial hemp thing. I mean, we got that going here. It must have been 94 or 95 in Canada. I think commercial laws changed in 98, which is when you saw like... The companies come out and start selling the dehauled seed. So it was really always a grain play in Canada. We never did like CBD cultivars to try and... But then again, we never had the market that you guys had.

2:43:11BubblemanI mean, I remember when CBD isolate started getting produced in Colorado and my buddy was selling it for like $60,000 a kilo. I think it's like $600 a kilo now, which speaks...

2:43:25Bubbleman300. OK, so this speaks. Oh, look, he's got the balloons. This speaks to what Mojave was saying earlier in regards to, you know, having a regulatory body that sort of says like, hey, you know, and Fletch as well was also speaking to this about saying, hey, listen, we control it. We tell people how much they can grow and the price that they can sell it at and to kind of try and not implode the entire thing.

2:43:48BubblemanDefinitely saw that in the U.S. CBD market. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:44:16BubblemanWould recognize the fact that we are the anomaly, like we are the small percentage, like most people probably don't care if they're pre-rolled joints or... We have botanical terps and 20 different types of pesticides. They're smoking radioactive cigarettes and actively enjoying alcohol as their favorite personal drug of choice. Maybe they're on like a bunch of pharmaceuticals. Maybe they're on their ninth booster. I don't know. I'm not judging.

2:44:41BubblemanWe all have to make our choices. But it is just a strange thing to think. I always hear Debbie Goldsberry, you know, from years ago when we were going off about how it's got to be the best and we got to have the best terps and the this and the that. And she's like, She's like, guys, I love your passion, but I'm telling you, like in 30 years of doing this, people don't give a shit about anything other than price and THC percentage.

2:45:05BubblemanNo. So it leads me. I'll go. Go ahead.

2:45:09SpeakerSorry, I was just going to say that's the role of the regulator to kind of ensure it's not poisoned. You know, it's like, sure, if somebody wants it, like there's the whole jewel generation of kids that are just puffing on those, like those flavor sticks, you know, that wants some butterscotch distillate. Sure, that's cool. As long as it's not poisoned, you know, it's like when you look at like, you know, a lot of those botanically derived herbs, they have like huge amounts of benzene in there.

2:45:33SpeakerAnything with a cherry flavor, anything with a cherry, like it's like, I don't know what it is. Oh man, I... I keep telling you, man, I would imagine almost all of those botanical terps that I've ever touched have serious problems with all their functions. And a big reason, because all the pesticides super concentrate not only in the extract, but primarily in the essential oils. You know, so it's coming from citrus.

2:46:01SpeakerYou're all experts. Yeah. Colin, everybody, you're all experts here. So, I mean, has anybody come across anybody who's been able to come even close to replicating what the plant can actually do? Well, here's another perspective. I would go as far to say even the plant itself has problems with toxicology when we extract it by itself. And by design, there's certain constituents in certain levels that we shouldn't be ingesting, you know, and that's another problem, right?

2:46:32SpeakerAnd in the hemp world, for some reason, That happens often. And it's not so often in type one, but there's a lot of terpene extracted varietals that are meant for that that are being sold at scale that do have tox problems with them. So I want to just call that out that I've learned over my time that it is on both sides and we all have to...

2:46:53SpeakerJust be really open about that. The path forward is about recognizing, hey, maybe we shouldn't grow super, super haze and extract it for terps because it has this type of, you know, terpene in it that we can't have at 3% or more. And it's causing, you know, cell damage at this rate. And therefore, from a tox perspective, it's unfit for consumption, right? So I think that's a, yeah.

2:47:19SpeakerYou know, you're exactly right on the toxicology of certain things being at certain concentrations is like all of a sudden becomes really gnarly. But I think I mean, but if you grow cannabis, hemp type three cannabis on clean land with clean water and clean inputs, it's It's clean. The turps are clean. Everything's clean, you know? And so I think, you know, again, it's like, I think cannabis has the potential to flip agriculture in the long run, you know, in this becoming like a bought into it, like reality and issue and, and, you know, seen kind of as from the cultural side of things.

2:47:55SpeakerI mean, cause you can't just flip a thousand acre mega farm, you know, you can't just flip a greenhouse that's been, Thank you so much for joining us.

2:48:18SpeakerBuddy closest to the plant that's in integrity with the plant. And I think in the long run, those that are in integrity with the plant are going to succeed, you know, and those that are out of integrity of the plant are might be making some like short term gain and profit, but are going to have a long term not successful path with the plant. And I think whatever path it takes, it'll correct itself as well.

2:48:38SpeakerI think that's important is that every, this is all just transition. So like whether it goes back to just being state-based license systems and we have all these little islands or whether it goes the farm bill path and they change the ruling on early harvest window or whether they, all the things that they're gonna do, we know it's gonna go back and forth, but it will correct itself.

2:48:58SpeakerAnd my hope is that in this, all this turmoil, We're forced to pick a path, which seems like what's happening right now because there's been a sea change in terms of congressional support. It's now every region has cannabis in it. Everyone wants the money. Everybody wants it to go forward. Everybody knows somebody who's in the business. Or uses it medicinally, or, you know, it's like, there's no, anyway, we're past that.

2:49:26SpeakerSo now it's just like, we're all just waiting, like, you guys tell us which path to take. And that's why I thought this guy, this grower who's doing the three different angles was a really interesting conversation. It was like, dude, and doing it well. And, you know, like, hey, like, I don't know which way it's going to go, but I got my, I got my over here and I got it over here and over here.

2:49:43SpeakerAnd either way, I'm pivoting, like we've all pivoted many times. And medical was a pivot. We all know medical was a pivot. We did that, you know, we wanted medical to happen, but really we're just all trying to legalize cannabis. Hemp laws in Canada were a pivot. Everything is a pivot. We're all just trying to legalize big C cannabis genus cannabis. So to me, whichever way we get there, You know, eventually it'll become some, Australia is a perfect example.

2:50:08SpeakerAustralia started out total medical, like regulated, federally regulated pharmaceutical thing. All cannabis cultivars had to be called like Aleve and Refresh. And now they're just, now every California brand, all the cultivars, they want chronic, they want fire, they want all the, they want it just the way everybody does. Even though they call it medical, but guess what? In Australia now, 4% of the population holds a medical card.

2:50:38BubblemanI'd like to know what the bud is that Fletch held up just a few minutes ago, because that looked pretty fucking delicious.

2:50:47Archive SeedsThat is, it's basically oishi, which is Japanese for delicious.

2:50:54SpeakerNo shit.

2:50:55Archive SeedsIt's Skittles Cross with flavor pack. It's like a reading line. I think Colin's probably seen that one when I was back in New York.

2:51:04SpeakerYeah, dude. The stuff that you showed me and we smoked on together, like, man, I got to get some packs of that. For sure. That stuff. That stuff's amazing. It just lingered perfectly, guys. It was like every everyone had a different. Slightly different profile, but ended up at the same place where it just lingered and just taste, just flavor coding.

2:51:26BubblemanSo I have a question for you, Fletch. Why is it that you grow and breed such incredible quality cannabis? What are you doing differently? Is it your olfactory? Is it your ability to perceive volatile organic compounds? Is it something you're doing in the grow? Is it that you have access to incredible starter genetics? Because I just, I've always known you've had great genetics. But but it's it seems to be even like another level, like it's just like you're just so focused on the exceptional.

2:51:56BubblemanWhat? How? Why?

2:51:59Archive SeedsWell, I don't know if you guys have seen how many joints have already rolled and smoked, so I think that helps contribute to it. And then, man, my passion is just I like hunting through populations and like giving all the different hybrids the opportunity to Thank you for joining us.

2:52:38Archive SeedsIt doesn't matter what you even start with necessarily. You're going to continue to improve what you have through that process as long as you continue to reinvest in that process is really what it is because it's just expensive to have bad runs or whatever it is or where you pick the wrong parent this time and you need to go back and rework a line or whatever it is.

2:53:00Archive SeedsAnd Just enjoying that process and then and then part of it was just always knowing right when I started growing at least just having collected a really wide range of like the American clone only genetics and making sure that I that I knew what I had and why I had it and at that time I only focused on flavor. You know and smell but really things that only transferred to flavor or it had an exceptional smell that I wanted to make into a good flavor and that's you know continually been the process.

2:53:38BubblemanYeah, but the other thing that I would add is that your shit produces full melt bubble. And that's also not something that always translates. There's tons of cultivars out there that are delicious and wonderful. And I love them as, you know, a vapor off of the flower. But when I try to turn them into hash, It's just the yields aren't there, or if the yields are there, it's just not translating the same way that what I perceived in the flower would be as a concentrate out of the flower.

2:54:06BubblemanSo I think that that's sort of, you know, they're really full melt genetics, like full melt certified genetics. A lot of your genetics produce, when grown properly, obviously, just beautiful hash.

2:54:18Archive SeedsI think a lot of that's just the selection process too, right? And using multiple or even having lines made from multiple different females and just making more selections. And then lots of people grow my seeds out and find great selections too. And it's awesome having high-end growers grow what we make and get them to perform really well.

2:54:44SpeakerI was going to comment on even the secondary line that you released that were just like stuff you didn't really test all that much. Like we got a Dosey Times original Dizzle on, dude. We found some poor heaters in there and there was only six seeds in the pack, I think.

2:54:59Archive SeedsYeah, well, I can only take so much credit. I mean, the original Dizzle was, you know, just making sure I have the original legitimate clone and held it for 20 years and then crossing it with a good selection. I mean, and it, you know, wasn't, Even the Dosey 18 wasn't necessarily like my favorite Dosey dough plant for my flavor, this or that. It was just the most resinous, you know, highest hash yielding, you know, type from that original like 30 seeds I popped.

2:55:28Archive SeedsIt's not even like it was a big, big hunt or anything. It was just... The continual process of just picking something better every time and moving forward is that's the name of the game to me. It's not like everybody thinks that, oh, I'm just going to back cross. And it's like, all you're doing is Doubling up, tripling up on the original plant that you were trying to improve by going back to the plant that has all the problems.

2:55:56Archive SeedsAnd so to me, it's about making the selections and then moving forward with those and trying to increase the reoccurrence of the traits that you do want.

2:56:07BubblemanNo, that's rad.

2:56:08SpeakerCool.

2:56:09BubblemanI think Skunk Man Sam just popped into the room. Howdy, everybody. Yeah, I'm a day late and a dollar short again. But we're still here, dude. Like three hours later, we're still here. I know.

2:56:23SpeakerI was really surprised to see you still here.

2:56:26BubblemanAnd you came in right when Fletch was talking about like selection and breeding. So I thought that that was very cool.

2:56:35SpeakerWell, you know me. I always like to grow out as many as I can. A hundred is nothing to me. I've done grow out where I did female hunting from 20,000.

2:56:49Archive SeedsJesus Christ. Yeah, I've never had the privilege. I go through about 1,000 to 2,000 a year indoor.

2:56:58SpeakerYeah, no, it was 20,000 skunk number ones, half male, half female. So I selected the 10 best boys and the 10 best girls.

2:57:09Archive SeedsWell, and those have spawned probably half of the best hash making varieties in the last 40 years.

2:57:16SpeakerYeah, congratulations, Skunk Man Sam, on the Emerald Cup recognition and award too. Yeah, dude, for real. I'm hoping to be able to see you there. Well, I'm so worthy, I guess.

2:57:31BubblemanWhy don't you mention what his award was there, Alec?

2:57:35SpeakerI was trying to remember off the top of my head. I think it was Lifetime Achievement kind of. No, no, it was into the Breeders Hall of Fame. There we go. There we go. That's what it was. Thank you for your service to humanity and to the flavor of the ganja. Well, I think the biggest thing that I did, to be honest, was I sold seeds incredibly cheap.

2:58:05Archive SeedsThat's why those genetics are everywhere.

2:58:09SpeakerThat's absolutely true.

2:58:13Archive SeedsI mean, even if we don't know it's in something, it's a high probability that it potentially is in there somewhere.

2:58:20SpeakerWell, between Haze and Skunk was the two that was used the most, the California Orange and Durban Poison. We'll also use really a lot. And I had some early Thai that was used really a lot. I had a variety called bunk, which was Thai hay skunk, which was really, really popular. Foundation of most of what's out there, right? I use that to read my lemon cake, literally.

2:58:51SpeakerIt's the backbone of it. I selected a lemon leaner and just get that back to another skunk and I'll I tried really hard to get varieties that were extremely high in terpenes and really loud. You know, that's... Yeah, that's what I personally enjoy. That's right. I also like dry sifting better than water hash because it's kept a little bit more of the terpenes. Some varieties are very sensitive to water.

2:59:28SpeakerOther ones just ignore it. Yeah, the terp water from the after wash. But you don't want terp water. What you want is you want terps in the resins.

2:59:40Archive SeedsYes, sir. I've got a question. This is the perfect group to ask in terms of why certain resin heads wash and some don't. Just because you brought it up too. And I think this is the perfect group to ask is this is how my assumption. I think we've all like made plenty of rosin, BHO, etc., Some of that, some of those resins, even if you put them in a freezer, they won't harden up, right?

3:00:12Archive SeedsLike they just, there's too much terpene sauce.

3:00:15SpeakerYeah, I think there's too much terpenes in them.

3:00:18Archive SeedsRight. And so if it won't, if it won't freeze, yeah, if it won't freeze at, let's say, You know, 32 degrees or even a freezer, that's seven or negative seven or whatever. Then, and the hash is basically just a representation of the trichome heads ratio of TH or cannabinoids to other compounds. Essentially, if it's too terpy, like you just said, Skunk Man Sam, it won't freeze at 32, therefore you can't wash it.

3:00:51Archive SeedsThe heads will just burst in the water.

3:00:54SpeakerNo, I don't think that they burst as much as some of them seem to be. The terps are water soluble from the head. Yeah, you could tell really easy. If the water is terpy, Then, you know, there were varieties that we did like shitraw water hash, and the water wouldn't smell very strong at all. And most of the flavors and the taste was the same, whether you dry sifted or water hashed it.

3:01:29SpeakerAnd yeah.

3:01:30Archive SeedsWell, if the terpenes are water-soluble, the terpenes were like inside the head, right? So then it's not burst, but it's leaked its innards, let's put it that way. And then now that it's ruptured, you can't catch the trichome head anymore because it's... That's also one of the reasons I like dry sift.

3:01:51SpeakerAnd when I would make dry sift, I would cure it for three or four months. So it was more like a little raisin than a fresh head because the fresh heads smear it easy. They, you know, when you're trying to dry sift it, you don't want it smearing. You want it, you know, dry sifting.

3:02:14Archive SeedsAnd it's very strain dependent. There are varieties like, in fact, one of the best dry sift varieties I ever had, which this was the pictures, uh, Marcus, you remember Shroomy420 posted those full melt photos on your forum back in the day? That came from me. Yes. Anyways, that was skunk number one times white rhino, right?

3:02:41SpeakerWell, skunk number one is one of my favorite for dry sifting.

3:02:47Archive SeedsThat was the most incredible. I mean, I popped those seeds in 2004, probably. So, you know, that was, I mean, it was, I mean, I've always seen.

3:03:00SpeakerIf you cured that weed, was it easier to dry shift?

3:03:07Archive SeedsIt would literally start dry sifting. Like with, if I just dried, if, you know, 10 day hang, let the room get to like 40% humidity and it would just rain Keef when you trim it.

3:03:21SpeakerYeah. We used to always trim on top of a silkscreen.

3:03:26Archive SeedsYeah. That's what I always have done too.

3:03:28SpeakerYeah.

3:03:29Archive SeedsI read all your guys' books. I, I took it all into practice.

3:03:35SpeakerHey, there's a, you know, Zamir Punjab did a thing, I think, actually at CanMed, and it's a microscopy or whatever on cannabis heads on trichomes. And he shows some ripe heads and the secreting and actually coating the outer layer. And it's kind of far out because it's not burst at all. It's a fully intact head, but just it's slowly oozing out and it's covering. And it's always, one thing that I've always wondered is like, what makes fresh cannabis sticky?

3:04:03SpeakerYou know, it's like, how does that head so sticky when the chemistry hasn't happened until it ruptures? But the reality is it's happening on a ripe head on the inside and on the outside. And that has a lot to do with, you know... Is it going through the wax shell? Or is it coming out... Through the vacuums, I think. Through the vacuums. You know, you'll have to, I don't want to say because I have such a poor memory, but check it out.

3:04:29SpeakerIt's really good image. I actually sat in it. I didn't even see it when I sat in on the conference, but he's basically showing fully intact ripe heads that are slowly oozing out and coating the outside surface. But it's still ripe. And the other source that's really interesting right now is this, that photographer, Zoom Gardens, And he's peeling the cuticle layer off of the gland head. And it's far out because sometimes it stays intact as the layer comes off.

3:05:00SpeakerAnd, you know, because all the gland is this hard structure. And so it's not as much of a water balloon as people assume that you just poke it and it oozes out. Sometimes it oozes out very slowly and gradually. Sometimes it's rough. Thank you for joining us.

3:05:33Archive SeedsLike a really low terpene, you know, terpene, I mean, just all of those types of compounds, particularly in my imagination, it'd be like alcohol type compounds, just like liquor doesn't freeze in your freezer, right? So THC, it's hard at like 60 or 70 degrees. And the more terps you add, the lower the freezing point gets.

3:05:53SpeakerI think it's down to varietal and what's there. If you're saying like of what that 100% of what class of chemical constituents are there, let's say it's high in terpene or high in beta-carotene or whatever that might be. I think that spread, what you're talking about, Fletcher, I think it's sometimes inside of that wax cuticle and sometimes it's some of the constituents are actually on the outside.

3:06:19SpeakerSo you're...

3:06:20Archive SeedsBut if it's on the outside and it washes, but the head still stays intact, we'll get half from it, right? There's certain strains, you just wash it and there's literally nothing in the back.

3:06:32SpeakerYeah, totally. Yeah, exactly. Well, and that's some... I wanted to real quick jump in on, you know, and I really appreciate you bringing that up, Fletcher. Bigger respect to Archive as well. Yeah, it's really awesome to kind of, you know, and Skunk Man Sam joining kind of this pretty legend area. But it's very fascinating because if you look at what washes, typically the things that wash best are carotid and limonene.

3:06:56SpeakerThey're in that dessert zone. They have the highest yields and dumps as opposed to trying to wash terpenylene. Doesn't wash. Trying to wash like osmine or like, I mean, they'll tell the terpenes.

3:07:08Archive SeedsAll the terpenes will have different freezing points, some lower and some higher than concentrations of those versus the cannabinoid types and those freezing points. And I mean, that's what makes sense to me in terms of the main factor that makes stuff wash or extractable. And it's also, of course, temperature dependent. Like, I think you could get the water colder, theoretically.

3:07:33SpeakerAnd besides the freezing point, it's also different terpenes have different solubility in water. Yep, hydrophobic or hydrophilic, yeah, and that's kind of something I wanted to hit you with. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and that, because that's a, you know, because in that topic, you know, like... Well, what happens to the THC, those ones that you wash? Well, real quick, real quick, just to, you know, because I just wanted to make a point on what we've seen with testing, right?

3:07:59SpeakerSo... Thank you for joining us.

3:08:18SpeakerThank you for joining us.

3:08:41SpeakerYou know, bouncing around the lab lab and has more to do with optimal canopy management processes and removing leaf at the right times critical through the development of flowers and the maturing of flowers and people that like strip and remove such a vast, you know, which is very contrary to a lot of the old school belief, but, you know, like removing 75% of the family right at the start of flower, keeping that off on day 21, keeping that off on day 56.

3:09:07SpeakerLike what happens is every bud, Thank you for joining us.

3:09:28SpeakerOverall, not only do we see the standardization of cannabinoid content across the plant to what a top of tests, plus or minus like a 5% relative difference. So if you had like a 25 up top, plus or minus like one and a half percent or 1.7% or whatever that is. So you could have kind of this standardization for when a compliance test happens and a representative sampling, you're like right at the number of what a top of test, right?

3:09:51SpeakerBut if you remove, like a lot of farmers remove way too much leaf way too late in the flower, And those are all immature developed buds. And so there's, you could have on the same plant, you know, the 25 up here, but like 12 or so down here at the bottom. And now the average is like 18, right? And so I think part of it, you know, because when we've done this trial repeatedly across cultivars in time with different farmers, We've not only been able to show, not only can you standardize what the canopy test to what a top bud test and the genetic, bring out the genetic full potential of the plant and cannabinoids and terps and other aromatics, but you get a yield, increased yield per plant, increased extraction efficiency of what you're able to pull off that material per plant.

3:10:35SpeakerYou know, because because I think it's about optimization of how it's cultivated for if it's going to be extracted. And then further, it's about what is the extract? What is the appropriate extraction process for it to be put through so you can even turn it into hash? So, dude, you're touching on things that I think are a must-have topic because it's the most important thing. I think any of the individuals that are listening that are hashmakers in the chat right now, if you're an actual hashmaker, what Alec was touching on with your defoliation and your SOPs that go back to your cultivation techniques, If you've listened to any of the things that I've ever said in any of the talks I've done, it always starts with defoliation.

3:11:17SpeakerAnd there's a reason why. Everything that Alex just said, that is going to exponentially help your resin quality if you get in there early enough and have a really finite timing in which you do that and where you do that on the plant at what time. So I'll leave you to design that for yourselves. But that is the most that I've learned over my time doing this from cultivation to oil.

3:11:39SpeakerAnd there's there's a lot that goes into that. And it's not just about being a great extractor. It's about being a great steward of that plant from that seed to oil and understanding all of the ways that you need to do the things you need to do in your SOPs and work instructions as a team, because it's not singular, especially when you're doing things at scale. It all has to work in harmony, and that's a very difficult task.

3:12:03SpeakerSo I think that's, dude, you just, you hit on all kinds of things that I, that I really think about on a daily basis, because it's not just one part of the process that makes it great. It's all these things that amount to where you end up. Well, and I think it really... I think totally. No, I appreciate that. And, you know, because I think testing has helped me in a huge way to realize so much of what the passion people have for the plant and for extraction have helped them to learn already, you know, and And I think they complement in an incredibly big way.

3:12:37SpeakerAnd I think a big part of this too is, you know, diversity, right? Because cannabis has become homogenized in the chase for THC strains as well as in the chase for strains that wash, right? And we now see in this California State Fair, in the Emerald Cup, you know, 60, 80% of any given category or more in the solventless category All the same profile. They're very slight variations of the same thing.

3:13:03SpeakerAnd so the only thing that people really enter that are different or quote unquote exotic have some unique ester or terp or something in there like the Tropicana sulfur terps to make like mimosa smell unique, which is why people are like, oh, it's exotic. It's not exotic. It's actually abundant. And young man Sam helped bring that to the world, you know. But the thing is, is it's about like Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:13:50SpeakerDo you think that's problematic within that system that we've developed that you buy from a clone house, they just have a menu for that season, that's all you get, you're pigeonholed into buying whatever, a kush cake or whatever Skittles they're growing, and buy that at large or Blue Dream, whatever it is. What do you, you know, how do we, because, you know, it's, let's be honest, at scale, owning moms and propagation is very expensive.

3:14:17SpeakerAnd it's probably the most expensive aspect of doing all this to get yourself set up to grow it. So I wonder, you know, I keep thinking about it. Because pheno hunts are tough when you're dealing with dollars and cents and people that don't truly own their businesses, right? They're really just taking money from people and they're working for a VC or a bunch of people that have funded it.

3:14:42SpeakerAnd they're stuck. They've got to grow this that they know sells. And how do we break that mold, too? Because that's something we talk about in our team is we don't want to be stuck, caught in that ever. Well, Rob said at the Emerald Cup years ago, and it got quoted by LA Times, which was, seeds are life and clones are death. And he was talking about the bottlenecking of the genome, right, of the gene pool.

3:15:07SpeakerAnd I know of a particular nursery, which I won't mention, but in California, over 50% of their sales, over 50% last year, were Gelato 41. Now, at least everyone's got a little gas on it, you know? Yeah, I know, but 50% of the entire sales, and these guys are selling all over the states and everywhere, we're cutting, and that's the big bottleneck. And to me, that's a sign of the fast food era that we're in right now, where everyone's just like cheap and easy and what sells and what's colorful and what's not.

3:15:37SpeakerAlso, a big part of that, I think, is actually what's funny is I think, because... You know, what we've seen is this continuous homogenization of of flavors in California to only be like six to 80 percent of what's back. It reminds me back in the day, like in L.A., 48 to 50 strains on the shelf would be OG Kush variations, you know, and there was like no difference.

3:15:58SpeakerRight. And that blew out. And then kind of now the rise of the desserts. But now it's the same thing, you know, and what's a trip of what I'm seeing is so much. I believe that the bulk buying market is very disconnected with the consumer demand. Right, because the bulk buying market largely isn't trying to curtail to the unique consumer demand in any given state. They're like playing to the traditional market, you know, and so you got 60 to 80% of herb in California desserts, and that's not slowing down, you know, and, you know, even though And I think ultimately the idea of like,

3:16:58SpeakerYou know, because I think every cultivator has to make those types of choices, right? Are you going to grow nothing but skittles and gelato by skittles, gelato crosses, even though 80% of the market's that, you know, because unless your herb is like twice as turped and preserved as everything else, you just blend in with the mass of everything else, you know, but by diversifying your portfolio, having all these other cultivators, sure, you might grow gelato 41, 50% or more of what you bulk grow, but as long as you have those Like really epic, isolated phenos that you love that cover like range of smell and flavor.

3:17:32SpeakerYou know, you can always grow those in smaller amounts, keep them going and find the niche markets and areas where you're at to be able to really start building a grassroots demand for those. Because, you know, what we're seeing when people do that, it's like a leap of faith. Because it's like you're making huge choices, you know, but it's like, don't not grow it, just grow way less of it until you can start justifying that, you know.

3:17:58SpeakerOr the other thing, the other thing that can be done is people can cyrogenically freeze, cryogenically freeze and clones and keep them for forever.

3:18:17Archive SeedsI think what we're going to find like in the future market when everywhere has legal grows and there's just It's available everywhere. If you're not innovating your product with your products, you're going to be commoditized or pushed into that market because you and everybody else that bought the same clones this year are all in the market together. It doesn't matter how new they are. You bring back something from three years ago, it won't matter.

3:18:46Archive SeedsAnd the more commercialized Growers are playing that game and buying from those places and not finding something unique to their business, the quicker it's going to continue to move in that direction.

3:18:59SpeakerWell, to be honest, I made a lot of seeds in my life, but the seeds I made were, I tried to think of other people, but really they were the ones that I liked.

3:19:15SpeakerWell, you have a distinct palate, man, man. And we each do. And that's what's so cool about this plant. You know, it's like it tickles our olfactory senses in a way that, I mean, some people can't eat cilantro because it's soapy or don't like chocolate or cacao because of the bitterness, you know, and others love it, you know, and that's where, you know, I think it's really about, you know, what we've been working with the Emerald Cup and the State Fair on and really progressive dispensaries in the States.

3:19:42SpeakerLike when you present herb to consumers, you know, it's like, Do you have 80% of what's on your shelf? Is this one thing? Because you're not really providing a difference. And are all the turps gone, right? But it's like sorting, like kind of presenting it like when you go, because when you go into a wine store or an alcohol store, right? Like that every cashier isn't a sommelier, nor should they be expected to be.

3:20:06SpeakerThat's a lot to ask. But whenever the average consumer goes in, you got your Merlots and Merlots, Chardonnays, Chardonnays, Cabernets, Cabernets, Rosés, right? And so the average person can make a choice based on what they know their flavor preference is. And presenting it in such a way not only kind of helps to kind of really Get deeper into like helping people find what best, you know, associates with their endocannabinoid system.

3:20:32SpeakerBut it also shows where you're lacking, you know, and helps to reestablish value. It's like, hey, dude, if I've got unlimited access to Gelato 41 and Kush Cake, But I don't have any plugs that have anything in the awesome indomitable like tropical sleigh ride or pineapple tie, pineapple, anything or kind of terpenylene, right? Or, you know, sweet tooth, like, you know, I mean, I think kind of the more And so much of it happens at the retail because I think the whole conversation around terps and preservation of terps is like almost preaching to the choir for those closest to the plant, you know, because THC doesn't matter, right?

3:21:11SpeakerBut once you get to like the average purchaser at a dispensary that's buying off spreadsheets and strain names with THC percentages often blown out, inflated and not even real. Thank you for joining us.

3:21:43SpeakerAnd the epiphany around this Terps Matter, aromatics are the most important thing. And if they're there or not, you know, that's not going to come from an epiphany at the average consumer level or the average buyer dispensary that's buying our spreadsheets. It's going to come from the top thought leaders in the space helping to disseminate that out, you know, and leading by example. When is somebody going to test if files...

3:22:07SpeakerCan contribute and modulate THC the way terpenes do because bile is the latest craze, but nobody knows that they potentiate or modulate cannabis. Everybody has guesses, but nobody's proven it. Or indults. That's the one I've been chasing. Indults are pretty exciting stuff. You know, and Sam, actually, I brought this up earlier, but I'd love your kind of thoughts on it and your observations, especially since the orange that you had, as well as the skunk, you know, because when it comes to these trace thiols and sulfuric compounds like tropical sulfur that makes that tangy, you know, orange citrus vibe and then the thiols that make the gas.

3:22:53SpeakerWe've been working on methods to develop

3:23:11SpeakerSee what of them are even possibly to be tested for in flour versus kind of what can be shown up and concentrated in extracts. But that's also where the human nose takes it to a whole nother level. And I think the marriage between science and the human olfactory triple, you know, match spectrometer I think is where kind of this all really is where it kind of evolves to help celebrate the nuances.

3:23:36SpeakerBecause in the Emerald Cup, we just launched a new category and that's the citrus category. And because there are so many examples entered that people were entering as exotic, but there were as numerous as gas in the whole competition. And they spanned across terpene categories from the myrcene category to the caryophylline limonene category to the terpenylene category. When we were breeding for terpenes, what we found was, and this blew Rob Clark and my mind, because we crossed haze with a hemp variety and made them, grew out the F2s and made a selection.

3:24:14SpeakerAnd we found one that smelled exactly like haze, but it had no THC.

3:24:23SpeakerAnd we know how much you do not like that. That really fucks with your nose.

3:24:30SpeakerSo, Alec, like with all that you just said, imagine owning that wine shop and selling like the most rare grapes in the world and then having this little tiny section on the right that's just like Everclear and some other weird stuff. And your customers come in and they're like, what do you got? And you're like, well, I got all this amazing stuff and all these really amazing flavors.

3:24:53SpeakerAnd then I've got this stuff over here that's 99 proof. Yep. They're like, well, I'll take that stuff over there. And that's how it is. You know, it's not 99 proof. It's 200 proof. 200 proof or whatever, whatever the proof is. But it's it really it's it feels like that's kind of where things have landed in in a weird way. Maybe maybe I correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, but.

3:25:18SpeakerIt just seems like that analogy feels real right now. And as you said, Alec, we can only all as a community talk about how that's problematic. And we do need to change it because there is more to all of this than just a monomolecular substance. And those that are on here disagree, okay. But I don't know. I just wanted to spark that conversation with everybody here. Is that really...

3:25:46SpeakerThe path, you know, because there is many paths to therapeutics here. Sometimes a monomolecular compound is right. Sometimes not. But also to some people want the most punch they can get for their back. And they think that it's THC. But for example, my best skunk clone was only 17% THC, but it was super rich in the right terpenes. Yeah, like three to one turf ratio, 5% turfs.

3:26:19SpeakerAnd people preferred it over stuff that was 22 and 25 THC. For sure. Yeah.

3:26:28SpeakerRight. But we haven't proven, we haven't shown what potency is with cannabis at all. And that's a big issue, right? We've all, we all, we like potent cannabis. We all like to get high. Well, but we don't know what potency is. And even in the literature, we use the attached THC to potency. And like, we all know that that's not, no one was measuring THC in land-raised populations when they're selecting for potency for a thousand years.

3:26:49SpeakerThey're selecting for Potency, one thing, right? But the market, you know, and they want to pay for their, that's what they want to do. They want to get the biggest bang for their buck. But we know that we can deliver a more potent variety that's at a lower THC. So that's just about us being bold. Like Alex said, brands have to be bold. Breeders have to be bold.

3:27:12SpeakerWe have to put the product on the shelf for them to choose from. But at the same time, the market's been dumbed down so much that they just choose dessert flavors. So what I think we should do, Alec, is take all the hazes, the sages, the train wrecks, the jacks, the Durbins, and rename them all fruity, flowery names. Purple Candied Gas. What we could try and do is educate the consumer.

3:27:37SpeakerYeah, that's it. That's the answer. Best Friend, you were going to say something, dude. Well, thank you. It just seems like it's kind of confusion on both ends when I hear that, where you have like a high-end... bottle of wine and and then you have like the low end alcohol so it's kind of confused on the shelf already or in the same in that at the store but then confusion on the customer on the clientele end too or if they're coming into that store you know not sure where that begins or how to where that would correct i'd almost go back to sam or someone in amsterdam right now where checking in to see if there if there are any like really high end or organic You know, organic, regenerative, even soil grown, you know, as the basis for high-end cannabis or hash in Amsterdam as, you know, like, are there places where you could find any of that?

3:28:30SpeakerBecause I haven't heard. You can, you have to find it by word of mouth, but it can be done, but it's a minority of the product. I always grew my plants organically. In the soil, in the ground, in a greenhouse. I would have grown it outdoors in California, but you can't do it outdoors here. It just don't work well in Amsterdam.

3:28:57Archive SeedsI can't remember who said it earlier, but you were talking about...

3:29:05Archive SeedsWith the market difference between, or the demands of the traditional market versus what the actual recreational consumer is. And that drives a lot of what people grow in terms of like the, like, you know, just in that conversation of, We'll be right back.

3:29:44Archive SeedsAnd then 20%, a couple sativas and some shit. And if it sells on, they don't even put any energy into it. And they're actually growing more than the market really demands of them for that product anyways. So between those markets and then

3:30:00Archive SeedsAnd then businesses trying to fill both at the same time.

3:30:04SpeakerRight. Well, and it's keeping us in the Stone Age because in any state where this is the catering to the East Coast demand, which is usually like the five year ago trend in like California or another state, you know, it's kind of leading to where that's all you can grow because that's all that bulk buyers want to sell. But again, I think that's where just like the you know that leap of faith exists you know for people that are in the rec market to kind of again find the right ratios of what you're growing but but don't give up and like you know don't you can't beat them join them but not when it comes to growing nothing but that because it's like that's going to be the collapse and the commoditization of the market whereas but then they have to invest in breeding and finding their own Well, isolating, finding the phenols that cover the range.

3:30:49SpeakerBut the people, like I was mentioning earlier, like in Oregon and California that are selling out quicker than is trimmed to the highest price the market can bear in the deepest floods, they've started to be able to kind of create markets for these rare, unique cultivars because of how much they invested in turf preservation infrastructure and treating cannabis like cabbage. And ensuring that they can deliver to the point of sale at a retail shelf herb that is hundreds of percents more flavorful, aromatic, sticky than anything else on the shelf.

3:31:20SpeakerYou know, those that do that, like there comes a point when a market because every it happens in every market, the same thing. There's this overproduction that leads to price compression, that leads to potency inflation and fraudulent lab practices that blows out the market. And then the consumers at some point lose faith in the entire system. And they're just bouncing from brand to brand with no loyalty because Everything has a 40% flower result and tastes like hay, you know?

3:31:44SpeakerAnd so what happens is whenever that happens in a market and the consumer loses faith and there's no loyalty, those that double down on turf preservation that have a diverse array of profiles, all of a sudden through the dispensary market when they're delivering like this, they're like the savior, you know? And like all of a sudden, They build these relations where they're selling out quicker than trim, the highest price, and a lot of them are getting cash on delivery because of how chronic their herb is and how high their consumer demand and loyalty for that brand is.

3:32:15SpeakerYep. I mean, like I know guys and, you know, that only grow three varietals just don't won't change because they know it sells. It's already sold before it's down here. And it's three of the most popular varietals in the game. And they're just like, I can't deviate because I'm, you know, I can't risk it. You know, it's too risky to risk the fact that I might have a bad batch when everything is just sold.

3:32:40SpeakerRight. So I think that's another that's another problem. Right. So I think there's also that, too.

3:32:47Archive SeedsI think looking at markets like Oregon and Washington that are just super mature at this point and there's not California, Oklahoma, all these other states have taken over the like bulk game, you know, so there's grows here aren't really trying to cater to that for the most part. There's there's I mean, there's still some people, but it's less so than probably anywhere else. And Yeah, I think you're right, Alec, that the companies that focus on preserving the product to the consumer, just like you would a gallon of milk, is the name of the game.

3:33:21Archive SeedsBut it's really hard to do that because most of the retail stores have no idea what they're doing with their product and aren't willing to do it. Which is why we've been vertically integrated for the last like seven or eight years in Oregon. It's because there was no other way to do it. You know, I'm from Washington and we couldn't vertically integrate here legally, so I didn't do it here.

3:33:42Archive SeedsThat's it. It was like there's no point for me to, I'm going to end up in a commoditized market if I can't control the presentation and the supply and demand of my own product. And it's turned out well for us. But you have to gauge and size your market and your demand and your supply correctly. You can't just be like, oh, I'll do as much as I like.

3:34:06Archive SeedsBecause you're still, you have to remember, you're focusing on satisfying your local consumer at the end of the day. It's not about all these other people everywhere else that are coming in to buy packs and all this other shit, which is where... I'd say still 80% of the legal, most legal markets are still at. And so, and then you look at Oregon and you can't really grow the like known clones for that long before it's that strains commoditized.

3:34:38Archive SeedsSo most growers in Oregon are, Popping their own seeds, finding their own stuff, making their own hybrids, making little deals with other breeders to get some stuff in. And that's becoming more and more commonplace. And those are those same brands that are selling their product out. But they're not 500 lights, they're 50 lights. For a guy with, you know, a 50 lighter in his backyard, like it used to be, but selling it all legally at 3,000 a pound, Is a great business.

3:35:09Archive SeedsAnd that I think looking at markets like Oregon and Washington and even Canada kind of at this point, those big models aren't even working. Even with export available to these big operations in Canada, it's not working. It's still not enough demand.

3:35:29SpeakerYeah, and I feel like the plant is at certain fundamental level uncorporatizable in this way of scaling, commoditizing.

3:35:37Archive SeedsYeah, it runs into its own roadblocks with the consumer trying to do it.

3:35:43BubblemanYou're not wrong. The big companies have definitely stopped trying to produce millions of feet of canopy. It's just not a reality for them right now. But there are some larger outdoor grows, like my friend Merlin, who was here with me earlier, He invited me to go see one in October that's 94 acres, which is big. That's a big grow. That's producing a fair amount of cannabis. I've been in a 77 acre one.

3:36:09BubblemanI have a friend who has close to 200 acres here in BC.

3:36:13Archive SeedsI'm sure there's much more, right? That's for export, right?

3:36:16BubblemanI don't know. I don't know if they're...

3:36:18Archive SeedsI can't imagine Canadians are buying all that.

3:36:21BubblemanYeah, but in the end with export, even it gets pretty strict and there's most of like if it's European, it's got to be EU GMP. If it's Australia, you can have some other regulations. Everyone's definitely trying to get their cannabis from Canada into those markets because Canada doesn't have much of a market. It's a small.

3:36:41Archive SeedsThat's my point. That's my point. Yeah, it's a small market.

3:36:44SpeakerCan't they destroy and just get full value over insurance up there because of the structure? No. Right? They can't. I thought that they were allowed to.

3:36:56Archive SeedsOther crops get crop insurance, but I don't know about who's going to insure cannabis.

3:37:03GmlThere is some crop insurance, but I think that like right away that was probably abused or used up. It's like when we signed up with Leiden, there's so many insurance policies that we did for shipping and they'd be like, after our very first claim, they'd cut us off.

3:37:19SpeakerWhat's the point? Well, what's crazy about crop insurance is it's like, because farmers and agriculture are required to create crop insurance, not for if their crop is fucked and lost because their practices, but in case they get sued and held liable because they're spraying and overspray affects another farm. You know, so on that end with crop insurance and agriculture, that's on the high, that's on the rise and premiums are on the rise because cannabis farmers and how valuable the crop is whenever they get drifted on, there's hell to pay.

3:37:50Archive SeedsWell, the government will pay you to not grow in regular agriculture, at least sometimes. Yeah, that's the truth, man.

3:37:58SpeakerYeah, I think the couple things, Alex, you said, you know, really resonated with like, what is too much? And same with you, you know, Fletch, like, what is too much? You know, what is the canopy size that makes it make sense? So everybody...

3:38:15Archive SeedsYou just do it with population, consumer base, X percentage, smoke, this amount. And then you look at it, this is the amount of square foot, not lights, not anything else. This is how many square feet we need. How many people do we think are going to try to be in this business? 5,000 people break the square footage down to the people. That's where you start. Everybody starts there.

3:38:34Archive SeedsIf you can sell your shit out, you can get more licensing and more licensing and keep growing your business. That's how I would do it.

3:38:43SpeakerI mean, Massachusetts has a path like that for the 5,000 square foot micro business where you can resubmit if you're, you know, if you need more. I think it's an awfully long process.

3:38:54Archive SeedsIt also keeps corporate investment out because the first stage will be such a low bar that it won't have millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of returns. You know, it's going to be a small business until you show that you're successful and you're not flooding the market with cheap bullshit that's Tana with pesticides and full of mold that doesn't test, you know, it's just like that's are full of mycotoxins that have been remediated.

3:39:20Archive SeedsI mean, all of that is just part of the commercialization of it instead of affecting some sort of production control, right? Yeah, it's all about what method that's easier than that. I'm not saying it's the best method, but it's very simple. Right.

3:39:40SpeakerBut it's about, to me, it's about what piece of pie is the regional model as we are in this transitional period. So everyone wants a slice of the pie, right? So we're creating all these different regional models and regional regulations for everyone to figure out who can participate on investment, how much canopy can this corporation own, all that. Those are all temporary adjustments based off of The current state of affairs.

3:40:04SpeakerAnd that to me is the biggest challenge. That's where all the investors, like I get more people asking me about like, so what are you guys in the U.S. going to do about the farm bill? Like we're not ready to invest here because you haven't figured out farm bill hemp in the U.S., You know, I mean, it's like, well, like, it's nuts, right? So everyone knows it's headed towards an international commodity.

3:40:25SpeakerEverybody knows that the guys that are planting those acreage in Canada, they're doing it for a future emerging market that's going to need it and hoping that it happens at the right time that they can get it there. And, you know, but it's anyway. So I think we're all we all understand that it's just in a big transition and and we're all just going to have to roll with the punches because I don't think anyone's going to come up with a solution.

3:40:48SpeakerOne time I actually sat down and I figured out with mathematics how much cannabis is smoked in Canada and in America totally. And I figured out that whether you smoke marijuana, whether you smoke hashish, rosin, whatever, It can all be grown on 50 square miles in California.

3:41:20SpeakerIn the perfect climate with all the infrastructure and all the culture and all the labor and all the great genetics and all the great minds, just like they do with 20 other crops, we're like, look, man, we got this. We can handle it. Don't worry about it. It'll actually be better for everybody. And I do believe that. And I'm not a California exceptionalist, but I just believe that's the way we set up this state as an ag state.

3:41:42SpeakerCalifornia, Selena says, is the salad bowl of America. Right. And there's a reason why.

3:41:50Archive SeedsBecause of prohibition though, we've proliferated this ideal of cannabis to be indoor grown, indoor looking, even for the like cheap weed now. People want shit that looks like indoor, especially for flower at least. The hash is a whole different story. And so now all these new markets around the world that may have historically just been where California could just grow it all and we just export it all and everybody thinks weeds like cigarettes.

3:42:18Archive SeedsWe've got 40 years of this culture of wanting That like indoor cannabis because of prohibition. So now all these states and we're already seeing it in America. I mean, the evidence is there. Everyone wants to grow their own shit and sell it to the rest of the world. Well, that's like being a grower in California. Who are you going to sell your weed to? Another grower? Like, what are you talking about?

3:42:43SpeakerYeah. But I'll say at the same time, Fletch, I have to say that 30 years ago, outdoor weed looked very different than it does today. And with the right selection and breeding, we can, I think we can create, we can select cultivars that grow and seed crops that grow so well in the ideal climate that it'll be close enough that that whole, I need it to be indoor and I need it to be depth.

3:43:05SpeakerIt'll be such a quick shift where people go, wow, $50 an ounce.

3:43:09Archive SeedsYeah, it'll win because of price, exactly. But here's the thing where the government should be smart enough to not incentivize that because people only smoke so much cannabis. If you take it from $300 an ounce to $50 an ounce, what everybody pays, all you did is turn a $2 billion market into a $400 million market. And you got more people. Everybody shot for a $2 billion market, and now everybody's trying to share a $400 million market.

3:43:39Archive SeedsIt's happened in every single legal state that this has occurred in. What used to be a $2 billion market is now worth $500 million. Who does that help? Especially the state who's trying to tax it, right? It's like they're shooting themselves in the foot by doing so, and so are all the growers that push that mentality of the cultivation because prohibition created this ballooned market, right? And people are happy with it as long as they're paying whatever they feel like they're getting their money's worth, whatever that means.

3:44:10Archive SeedsAnd once you fully industrialize the production and bottom the value of the product, the incentive for anyone to do any of that, all of it's gone. And everybody's sharing thinner and thinner and thinner pieces of pie every year someone grows an extra acre.

3:44:29SpeakerWe'll always be new people creating new varieties for the love of it because not everybody's chasing money. I never did. Well, California is a whole different world nowadays. And that's the thing. California is going through its own collapse like Oregon went through, you know, that Oregon's kind of been coming out of, right? It happens in every state, you know, and, you know, even the biggest people, I mean, there's been like some of these monoliths that lost 600 mil and like have left the state.

3:45:01SpeakerRight. Of California, Oregon and Colorado, the three most competitive, mature markets in the nation, you know, and all of them are disappearing from competitive markets. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's like they're not competitive from my read, you know, like when the prohibition of because when the prohibition of alcohol ended, there was this 80 year consolidation among a few families before craft was even established in the 80s.

3:45:26SpeakerRight. And And the big prayer, right, is that doesn't happen with cannabis because the prohibition of cannabis ending, you got Budweiser and Kraft running in the same sprint, the same field in a market where it's, I feel like the hyper focus in THC is the only way to distinguish quality is such a mark of the adolescence and the immaturity of a market because we don't even know and have the tools to establish what is quality, right?

3:45:52SpeakerBut what happens inevitably is Those that build resilience and double down on terp preservation infrastructure. Because when herb doesn't, when the flood and overproduction sets in, herb isn't moving as quick as it used to. And so it sits around and it's really exposed to whatever infrastructure you have or don't have to care for the herb and terps in your possession. And if you don't have that and it goes bad, you're just racing to the bottom with the commoditized market as opposed to like, you know, the long game of preservation and how much kind of... That's California though.

3:46:24SpeakerWe haven't figured out how to, I mean, we know how to stabilize cannabis. We know how to make it if we actually injected it with, you know, nitrogen and argon gas to actually stabilize it because of these large productions. But the DCC has its head so far up its ass it can't even realize that. Thank you for watching.

3:47:08SpeakerBig time. One, I think that's what also was illustrated in the Sally Times expose. The state has to be overly restrictive in testing and auditing of the laboratories that are the final check in the integrity of the supply chain. If there is a robust state program to ensure the quality of what the standards are put in place, that combined with People doubling down to preservation infrastructure. I mean, that's, there's, there's, you know, overproduction is an inevitable, but the thing is, is clean quality bomb inputs are a resource.

3:47:46SpeakerThey're a scarce resource. And unless you know the folks that have them, you know, then you don't even have access.

3:47:52Archive SeedsNo one's incentivized to do that when overproduction is happening though. That's the problem. No one's incentivized. You have to get rid of the overproduction. I know. Yeah, totally. A lot of drag down the top.

3:48:05SpeakerBut that's where vertical like you're doing in Oregon is building resilience. And I know brands in California that are focused specifically on cultivation that have done this very thing and have in the most flooded space built their brand to sell out quick and there's trim cash on delivery as a result of You know, they're not having cash flow issues like with the dispensaries not paying. Can we agree they're few and far between?

3:48:29SpeakerOh, few and far between, for sure, for sure. And that's, you know, 100%. And that's the thing. It's like we're, because we're in live, So it's like we're at motion action, you know, working through quality, like it's the dirtiest and the cleanest in the state competing at the same price point, the cleanest or the most chronic and the most biomass in the state completing the same price point, you know?

3:48:48SpeakerSo it's like that, we're, I think as a culture, like working to power through that and build resilience in time where it's not looking good. But the thing is, is there is hope. And those that really figured that side of it out, Thank you so much for joining us.

3:49:25SpeakerYou know, that are not only full of built with integrity and kind of doubling down on the terps and like it's the only thing you can find in a five mile radius that's got any flavor aroma. There's a point where that matters in the collapse of every market. And it's just about making it through, breaking even, like, you know, just getting to that point, because if you're doing that, you're crushing it.

3:49:43Archive SeedsYou know, because once this opens up, you know, there's no one in the world that will be able to compete with Oregon, kind of California type, you know, I mean, you know, if the state prevented the overproduction of all that, like this, like there's a ton of grows that wouldn't survive without backdooring the majority of their product. And if the state just regulated that, Well, not even perfectly, but just even at all, right?

3:50:16Archive SeedsThat would basically get rid of all the fluff. Well, that's what those people that we're talking about, right? That these grows that we want to see do well, that can't afford to grow and put hand manicure and time and everything into $1,500 pounds, right?

3:50:35Archive SeedsWhere the market will actually reward them for that and the retailers won't be able to bully them because of the overproduction availability of something quote unquote comparable that then the customer now pays the price for because they're buying three month old weed for half the price because it's there. And like... You know, give me one second. Like in Colorado, when they started their legal, it was the 70-30 rule where you had to grow 70% of the shit that you sold and you had to have your own store.

3:51:08Archive SeedsCreated a great market, right? And so I'm just showing how it does. We even have evidence to show where it does work even.

3:51:18SpeakerThat's cool. That's that's a great data point, because what I'm thinking of is what Alex said about COD and terms and how that doesn't work and how that catches up with everyone. And that's really there's a million reasons, analogies you could bring up in terms of food, why you would pay for your meal first and you're not going to leave the restaurant without paying your bill. Right.

3:51:40SpeakerSo why would you leave a dispo and why would the dispo not pay you on delivery? Right. And then furthermore, it's, you know, the distros are forcing people into buying scenarios and buying schemes that are very familiar to the beverage markets where you want one brand. Well, you got to buy a thousand other of this other brand that's not moving to liquidate this inventory for me to give you actually what you're here for.

3:52:03SpeakerAnd I think those types of tactics force retailers to buy things they don't want them to then in turn, it's kind of slow roll things that they've bought that they do want. And then it overshadows and it's this weird dichotomy of like, well, take 1000 of these for 200 of these. And you're just in this weird dichotomy of forcing yourself with the distro to buy certain things.

3:52:23SpeakerSo I think that's a deeper curtain that I'm pulling on all of it. But It is a problem that I've seen overall. If you look at the cut flower industry, Holland used to dominate it. America used to dominate it. It's not that way anymore. It's all done in Colombia, Ecuador, you know, along the tropics because it's so much cheaper, the labor, and you can grow the same quality.

3:52:53SpeakerAnd I honestly think that's the way cannabis will be. It'll be produced where it's cheaper to produce and as high quality as the craft.

3:53:09SpeakerWell, I'd say cannabis is very different than wine, but for California, it's a similar dynamic in that like the 50s and 60s, it was a jug wine, crappy wine, cheap wine, you know, get drunk. And there wasn't a lot of real high end. California didn't have a name for itself globally. And while California built a name for itself globally and France and Italy and Spain took a hit, also Argentina took off and Australia took off and South Africa took off and Chile took off.

3:53:38SpeakerAnd now California competes with the global wine market, but we still crush it. And California wine still has a brand worldwide, you know, and that's because it was done collectively with farmers, with regulation, with Appalachians, with UC Davis, with the state. And they decided collectively, we want to make California wine a thing. We want it to be a player in the global wine world. And we still are.

3:54:05SpeakerBut it took a real concerted effort to do it and a lot of luck.

3:54:08Archive SeedsAnd that's also geographic dominance and a lack of an indoor supply like we know, you know, you can do with greenhouses and everything else. That's why, you know, Canada can supply themselves. They don't need California weed.

3:54:23SpeakerYou could also never pass a test if you grew an herb in Napa Valley. You know, it's like an absolute poisoned, tainted region of the state. But my point is how much of what the impact of California would have sans prohibition in cannabis in terms of a global market, you know, and what impact it will have in the future. You know, so Canada might not have happened the way it did if they could buy California wine, just like they don't, you know, so they had to, they were forced to grow indoors, just like we're all forced to grow indoors.

3:54:53Archive SeedsLike Canada going the way that it has kind of proves that there's not even enough international demand really right because I mean like to sustain even that level of what they were you know it's like California can come online too and grow bazillion pounds but it's going to have the same effect it's just going to bottom the price and then people go out of business and shut down all the big farms and then you end up with Small, high-end stuff that's servicing the local consumers.

3:55:21Archive SeedsYou got a few big guys that are crushing it on some weird export thing that they figured out that's super lucrative. They'll be out there, don't get me wrong, but they're going to be few, and that's why all the canna-corps have all left California. I mean, to me, the craziest thing is this. Like, if I... And like in the movie industry, I moved to Hollywood to go sell my movies, right?

3:55:50Archive SeedsIf I'm in the weed industry, like these Canada corporations, and I can't go to California and make money selling weed, How bad are you at what you do? I mean, you gotta be horrible. I mean, like, California's like the fifth biggest economy in the world. They spend money on weed like nobody's business there. The velocity of money in California dwarfs anywhere else. And you're telling me you can't make money selling weed there?

3:56:21Archive SeedsI mean, you must suck at weed because... That'd be like me saying I went to Hollywood to sell movies and I couldn't sell a movie there. It's like, well, I'm probably not very good then.

3:56:34SpeakerA lot of those people though, what they do, their reason why they're successful is because they've found a way to, through the high cost barrier of entry into a lot of markets that are limited license, essentially build their own little monopoly, even though their product couldn't even make the cut in Oregon or California or Colorado.

3:56:53Archive SeedsThat just means their days are numbered though, right?

3:56:56SpeakerYeah, until there's no more limited licensing states, it really, because I see it all the time, man. I get text messages from like Kentucky, oh, this is firing off right now. It's nuts, man. People are... People are hungry for things that they don't really understand. And I think that that is a problem in our industry where other industry comes in and they've got better ideas and they're going to go do this because they can get the investment into it.

3:57:23SpeakerBut then what happens when you spend all the investment and there's nothing left and there's no return? They go to another place to do it again, right? Until it's something either clicks or they just run out of money. But it just seems to me that that's never going to stop, just like the hemp markets are never going to stop unless there's real reform. You know, but we, as you said, Fletcher, like there's a real opportunity sitting in front of everyone.

3:57:49SpeakerAnd I get most both sides of it. I always say we all need to go back to the basics and just grow a really good herb again and stop worrying about the rest. And the flip side of that is that someone will say, well, I want it cheaper, right? Well, what happens when we stop saying that it's cheaper? I've got... When we say it just costs this much, you know?

3:58:08Archive SeedsI've got a funny metaphor I've thought of before and you know how we were talking about subsidies earlier? Prohibition was a multi-billion, multi-trillion over time dollar subsidy for cannabis growers. They created a lack of supply Which proliferated the culture, the industry, everything that we all love, right? Why would we want anything other than essentially the same thing after prohibition? Where we're basically in one form or another enforcing keeping things small.

3:58:58Archive SeedsThat's what, I mean, look at the hydroponics industry. It's basically done, right? It's just, you can't even find hydro shops on the West Coast anymore. You got to drive 50 miles in between stores. It's insane. So, yeah. You know, how's that good for the economy? And how does that, how does that even help the state after prohibition? Like they want, they looked at weed and go, look how much it's worth.

3:59:26Archive SeedsThey sell in, you remember the old news articles, a pound's worth $8,000, right? And they tell you it's worth 50 pounds is 4 million bucks. You know, it's like, that's, they were looking at it like we're going to get our 25% and here they are. You just allow overproduction and

3:59:47Dr Mark ScialdoneWarehouses full of super sacks full of hemp from last year, right? Just chock full of 400 to 500 pounds per super sack, right? And that shit was all grown last year and it ain't moving because the CBD market's been stagnated. So what are people doing? They're spraying that shit with THCA or THC rather, putting it into pre-rolls And selling it at gas stations and bodegas in New York City.

4:00:17Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, New York City is just such an interesting thing. We don't need to have time to go into it, right? Colin will tell you this, that every time they make some big announcement about trying to shut down the trap market in New York, Because the trap market is just, it's just, there's just like 10 shops on every block in Manhattan, right? And you could buy, you know, a nice, you know, sandwich and get a drink and then buy some weed at the same store, you know?

4:00:48Dr Mark ScialdoneSo it's fucking crazy, man.

4:00:50SpeakerSome of the stuff is legal from another state.

4:00:55Dr Mark ScialdoneAlex said it earlier too, you know, what's happening now, Because I think I had said this earlier. And hey, Fletch, it's good to see you again, man. It's been a while, man. But it's an order of magnitude cheaper to make THC from CBD isolate than it is to grow weed, extract it, and distill it and refine it into that same molecule of THC. You'll pay 10 times the amount to get to that same molecule of THC.

4:01:28Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, I mean, this is just yeah, it's a shit show. It's being commoditized. I don't know how any cannabis I mean, it's just, there's no way that the regulated cannabis market- You gotta sell the chronic. You gotta sell the chronic and service a specific consumer. And that's my opinion. You gotta make a brand promise and they trust you and that's why they do business with you.

4:02:06Dr Mark ScialdoneI'm on board with you, but you know what? The majority of beer drinkers in this country drink Budweiser Bud Light Shrill that they buy in cases at Walmart. So when you could buy weed at Walmart and it's booth weed with sprayed Delta 8 on it and you could buy it at Walmart, guess what? All those Walmart consumers are going to buy it. By the time it's going to be a new Prevagen or new Kunal, right?

4:02:35SpeakerYou'll see other donut curbs.

4:02:37Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, it's crazy.

4:02:41SpeakerAnd Budweiser also has a lot of glyphosate in it. And glyphosate is one of the biggest desertifiers of the microbiome that leads to like 80% of all long-term chronic illness, autoimmune conditions of all types into all types of cancer. And so I think we're entering into this world of Thank you so much for joining us.

4:03:21SpeakerThank you for joining us.

4:03:37SpeakerThe more we can do to kind of, you know, identify tests, you know, because taxes are destroying everything. I mean, there's so much destroying everything, the state not regulating labs. But I think ultimately the testing, again, the biggest barrier of entry to keep out the poisonous people that are, you know, their only game is to like monocrop against, you know, desiccate with glyphosate, you know, like the whole reality.

4:04:02SpeakerAnd so but the thing is, is That's also poisoning ourselves. It's poisoning the planet. It's poisoning all life species. And I don't think that's the long run that's going to succeed. But those that are like radically transparent and able to kind of build long term kind of loyalty around that, you know, I think is how kind of a lot of those that are in most integrity of the planet are going to like find their path.

4:04:24SpeakerDon't you think that the majority of the people in America eat? Heavily processed chemical grown food. I'm sure. And they're also developing all these long term. Of course they are. But all I'm saying is they're still buying it.

4:04:44Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, Marcus, I know you want to join. I know you want to jump, but I want to make I want to make a point before you end this episode. It's been a great episode, guys. We talked about a lot of stuff. But, you know, Unilever, the multibillion dollar Consumer Product Corporation, Unilever. They're the people who make, who bring us almonds, mayonnaise, right? I don't know if you like mayonnaise on your BLT, but it's probably better.

4:05:12BubblemanThey own like 150 food companies.

4:05:14Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, well, they're just this huge mega consumer product. Well, they have a new advertising slogan or a new advertising kind of gist where they want to talk about sustainable farming practices because They use soybean oil in the manufacture of mayonnaise, right? So, and they talk about it. So they show customers walking into like a deli and then getting like a sandwich that's got nothing in the wrapper.

4:05:46Dr Mark ScialdoneSo it's a pretty provocative kind of, you know, consumer campaign. But it's really, it's not paying attention to Marcus, what you guys figured out in Canada, which is that the driver for cannabis and hemp ultimately is not THC and it's not CBD and it's really not medicine. It's fucking food. Everybody eats food. Not everyone smokes weed like Alex said, right? So there's a limited market when it comes to, you know, how widespread can you produce cannabis?

4:06:20Dr Mark ScialdoneBut ultimately, if you're trying to displace soybean on protein per acre, now you're up against the industrial agricultural food complex of Archer's Daniel Midland, Bungie, DuPont, Stingenta, you know, all those chemical companies, all of them without exception, bought seed companies so they could genetically engineer their seeds to be resistant to their fungicides and insecticides and herbicides. So, Yeah, all that. I think the ultimate driver here, Alec, I don't know.

4:06:55Dr Mark ScialdoneI could be wrong on this. When it comes to protein per acre, I think with soybeans, you can get somewhere between 360 to 380 pounds of soluble protein per acre with hemp. And Sam, tell me if these numbers are in line with what you know. Hemp with the high, like, phenola, high oil variety strains. They think the estimates are somewhere like 1,000 pounds an acre. So if you're a farmer and you're looking to raise, I don't know, protein for your livestock feed because you need to make more red meat hamburgers for Big Macs and leather shoes and shit like that, I mean, protein per acre, it's going to matter how productive that acre of land could be.

4:07:45Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd if you could make 1,000 pounds on that acre, Versus just 360 pounds an acre. It's a no brainer. But now again, you're up against the industrial agricultural complex of these huge multinational corporations that need to keep raising soybeans, right? And if you look at soybeans, soybeans keep going up, keep going up, keep going up. The other thing that keeps going up is the amount of chemicals that are applied to the land where the soybeans are grown.

4:08:18Dr Mark ScialdoneWe know hemp doesn't need the chemical applications. So the chemical companies that own the seed companies have a vested interest to keep soybeans being grown right because they're selling tons of chemicals right guess what when hemp takes over they don't need to sell those chemicals anymore so Yeah, I think food is going to be the ultimate driver. I really don't.

4:08:42BubblemanI don't think you're wrong for sure. And cannabis protein is like the it's like the cannabis of food. It is so complex and so perfect and so incredible. It's been compared to breast milk, you know, in regards to the essential amino acids, all of the ones that adults need, the omegas need. The ratios of three to one, GLNA to GLA, all of that plays a factor as well.

4:09:06BubblemanListen, this has been fucking an incredible conversation. I think I spoke twice because I was really just enjoying listening. And I have felt bad for people in the past who haven't spoken much. And now I can appreciate their perspective. When you're not speaking much, you're listening. You're getting more out of it than you probably get out of it when you share. I want to thank... Kevin McKernan for coming on and sharing his data.

4:09:30BubblemanThank you, Colin, for inviting him and getting him on here. Thank you for coming on. Thanks, Alec Dixon, dude. You crushed it today. Like, dude, I always want to have you on here. Your perspective is so valid. It's so conscious and so loving and empathetic and true to the nature of what we all sort of believe. Grandmaster LED, thanks for sharing it on your channel and letting everyone know about Hash Church.

4:09:56BubblemanWe've had 300 people watching live for like four hours right now. Always a pleasure to see you and have you in the room. Wade, laughter, bringing laughter just with your presence. Really appreciate you, brother. Of course, Mojave Richmond, I really appreciated what you said today, man. It was great to have your perspective bouncing off with Fletch. A super honor to have you come out, dude. I know you're not always available and you're busy.

4:10:23BubblemanI loved what you wrote in the chat room there. If you want to send out an email to everyone to remind them that maybe missed what you said in private, they can reach out to you through the Hash Church email. I hope you're going to come back again and share more greatness with us. Skunk Man, Sam, I'm so glad you made it, dude. I was worried the whole time for a couple hours.

4:10:43BubblemanI was like, he's going to miss it. As the conversation got better and better, I felt like maybe he is going to come in. And at hour three, you came in and blessed us with an hour. So we really appreciate that. Etienne Fontaine, my brother, I'm so glad you made it. One of the OG Hash Church panelists. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so happy to be here with you.

4:11:01BubblemanI'm so happy to be here with you. I'm so happy to be here with you.

4:11:24BubblemanI'm seeing for the first time how important this dialogue is for our industry and it's it's it's great that we're all doing our individual things on our own but when we get together the the synergistic gain that we produce with uh bouncing off each other not always agreeing with each other sharing different perspectives i loved the different perspectives from mojave And Fletch today, both so valid, no one getting upset with one another, but both just showing these different perspectives.

4:11:55BubblemanAnd I think, you know, the conversation that is happening in Hash Church is an important one. And it helped steer the industry in the past. And I hope that we can help steer at least the community in the future. So thank you all so much for coming. May the full melt bless your bowl sooner than later. Let's all see each other next Sunday, shall we?

4:12:17SpeakerThank you. Love you guys. Thanks, bud.

4:12:20BubblemanThanks to everyone watching. Thanks to everyone watching. It's important. We really appreciate you guys. Peace out, everybody.

4:12:29SpeakerWoo-hoo! Make up, everybody.