CBG and Limonene for Anxiety

0:30BubblemanAll right. Looks like things went not quite how I thought they would, but here we go. Welcome, everybody, to Hash Church 5.0, Episode 5. I'm going to quickly let some folks in here. Quickly, quickly let some folks in here. Looks like we started in a new room, but that's Otey.

0:54BubblemanShare that down. Hey, guys, how's it going? Howdy.

0:59SpeakerLet's see if we can hear.

1:00BubblemanOh, Dr. Ethan Russo in the house. Nice and on time, bro. That is what I'm talking about right there.

1:07SpeakerYes. David, are we going to see you?

1:12BubblemanMaybe we'll see his Dr. Seuss little stuffed animal. There it is.

1:18SpeakerThat's really what I meant.

1:20BubblemanYes, absolutely. Dave's always, he's like me, he always has technical difficulties. This morning, I had a few myself. The episode didn't start where it should have started, but that's okay. We are live. We got 55 people in the room checking us out. And yeah, I'm excited to hear from you today. We got a bunch of cool people coming in. I don't know if you know... Davis Allen, he's doing some research over at the University of British Columbia with Chris Gassa, who's, I guess, a Harvard student who's also over at UBC doing some work there.

1:58BubblemanAnd they're coming in to talk about land races and a bunch of other fun stuff. So should be good to catch up. And it's nice to see you, man. It's been a while.

2:09SpeakerGotcha.

2:12BubblemanHello, Etienne.

2:14Etienne FontanHello, everybody. Dr. Russo, thank you very much for joining us.

2:19SpeakerSure.

2:20Etienne FontanI want to thank you.

2:25Etienne FontanFor 16 years ago, I reached out to you after I reached out to the University of Mississippi to get the information on how to test cannabis. And they told me, of course, to, in so many words, to test. Get lost. And I contacted you and you helped me put me in touch with Dr. Hasakamp. So I want everybody to know that you were helpful and responsible in the early days for making sure of independent testing for cannabis back in the dark days.

2:57Etienne FontanSo I just want to acknowledge you and thank you for that. Because of course, you set us inadvertently down a path that changed cannabis and I have to thank you forever.

3:10SpeakerYou're welcome.

3:11Etienne FontanThanks.

3:14BubblemanVery nice. Very nice. Well, good to see everyone on this Beautiful Sunday morning. I've got my sling off, so my arm is still completely broken, but it feels amazing not to like be slinged up on my chest here. Hey, good morning, Davis. This is Davis Allen. He's a close pal who just lives across the way on Bowen Island, actually, or is from Bowen Island. I'm not sure if you're living there anymore, but you are tuning in from Bowen today, correct?

3:47SpeakerYeah, I'm actually living on Bone Island right now, but yeah.

3:50BubblemanOkay, okay, awesome. Very cool. Well, good to have you, dude, man. I'm looking forward to some of the conversations. Davis reached out, oh, geez, it's probably been a couple weeks ago now, and he said, hey, you know, I'd like to come on Hash Church, which lots of people do, and I was kind of like, all right, well, Davis is a smart guy. He's doing some good things.

4:10BubblemanI asked him kind of, well, what, you know, What kind of conversations are you thinking that we might get into? You know, just because I like to have an idea when someone new is coming on that we figure out what kind of conversations we're having. And he hits me up with, well, you know, there's four areas I'm interested in. Landrace strains collected from isolated regions, chemical profiles, ratios observed in specific regions, and theories behind either biodiversity or selections of traits done by local cultivars.

4:39BubblemanMorphology and Traits of Interest, Pathogen, Environmental Resistance, Observed from Various Regions, and then Breeding, Development of New F1 Lines from Inbred Land Race Heirlooms, True Breeding Hybrid Lines, Selection from Environmental Pressure and Stress Tests, the Pharmacology, Research on Major Cannabinoids Potential, Therapeutic Use Other than THC, IECBD, CBG, CBDV, etc. Potential isolated compounds from cannabis for future medical use. And then organic cultivation. Yeah, no, no, it's not.

5:12BubblemanIt's not actually all, Dr. Ethan Rizzo. Then he goes into organic cultivation, no-till soil, sustainability, operating costs, cover crops, pest management via mineral content in soil and beneficial insects and sub-irrigation benefits versus top watering.

5:27SpeakerSounds like he needs a show of his own.

5:30BubblemanI'm telling you, he came up with some pretty good things here. And in fact, his colleague, Chris, is coming into the room right now as well, who's a PhD researcher that he mentioned is involved with genetics and biodiversity at UBC. And he's also interested in chatting about genetics in depth. So welcome, Chris. Good timing there, dude. You came in right like at the perfect time to give you an introduction.

5:55BubblemanThanks, Marcus. Yeah, man. Good to good to meet you and have you here. I feel like today's conversation is going to be a doozy. Everyone's early. Welcome, Dr. Mark Sheldon into the room. We've got some heavy hitters in the room today. I like it, man. I like it. I'm all about promoting incredible dialogue. That's what Hash Church has always been about. Pretty loose in the sense, but you know, we've got Dr. Ethan Russo here to begin with.

6:26BubblemanSo I was figuring that we would start with with him and kind of let him get into some of what he wants to talk about. Ethan clearly doesn't need In introduction, but I'll give them one anyway. It's just an awesome, awesome guy has always been so humble and kind and helpful and facilitating. And it's just nice to have you here, Dr. Ethan Russo. So yeah, let's get right into it, man.

6:48BubblemanWhat I believe one of the first topics you had mentioned was CBGA, THC and limonene for anxiety. Did I get that right?

6:57SpeakerYeah, CBG, so cannabigerol. Anyway, it's a pleasure to be here on what I call Hash Temple, at least during my appearances. But yeah, you know, we've had two publications this year. The first one that came out was with folks at Johns Hopkins. We've been trying for a long time to Do what I call a deconstruction reconstruction of cannabis components to try and show synergy. So the idea was to follow up on experiments that Dave Watson and I did More than 20 years ago, basically to use different amounts of THC and limonene and show alteration of THC effects.

7:50SpeakerSo that's basically what was done. The clear result of this study, which lead author was Tori Spindle, So this is available free for download at ethanrusso.org at the library tab. It should be one of the top articles. So anybody can access it there without going through a paywall or anything else. But basically what happened was the sufficient dose People in the study had anxiety induced by THC, which was vaporized.

8:28SpeakerAnd this is all double blind. But with the addition of limonene in a sufficient dose, there was a clear reduction in the anxiety. And people can argue with the amount that was in there. We addressed this possible criticism in the article because the top dose of limonene was 15 milligrams, which would be hard to achieve in many types of cannabis. But there are chemovirus that are particularly rich in limonene and actually can equal or exceed the amount of THC, particularly in type 3 plants.

9:10SpeakerSo what we did is not pure fantasy. Also, people may realize that I've always been a proponent of whole cannabis extracts. But in this instance, again, we had to separate components without using herbal cannabis that would just have too many other components. So again, I call this a deconstruction reconstruction.

9:43SpeakerThe other study was done with colleagues at Washington State University. Carrie Cutler is the lead author, and again, available at ethanrusso.org at the library tab. In this study, we wanted to show and really highlight what cannabigerol, CBG, can do. We've done a previous survey, same team, that was published a couple of years ago. In cannabis and cannabinoid research, and it was just a survey of people using CBG predominant material.

10:21SpeakerAnd the results were surprising because all kinds of claims were made about medical benefits. People saying that the CBG preparations were better than conventional medicine and very, very significantly helped with anxiety. So we tested that proposition. And we used a tincture that was supplied by Shingo Loos. It was pretty pure. This was a CBG without any significant amount of THC or CBD. And the only terp of any concentration was caryophylline, but really not a very high titer.

11:09SpeakerAnd unlikely to have psychoactive effects of its own. In any event, CBG in a double-blind study that was done over Zoom on tests of induced anxiety, like counting down from 13 from a high number and restarting every time you made a mistake, Showed a very significant reduction of anxiety. This is with a dose of 20 milligrams of CBG as compared to placebo. Surprising result was there was actually improvement in verbal memory.

11:48SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

12:17SpeakerParticularly here in the Northwest, there are CBG-only flower preparations and tinctures But additionally, CBG and higher concentrations with THC seems to do a really spectacular job in allaying anxiety that's induced by THC. So it's possible to still be high and have all the benefits therefrom without simultaneously getting paranoid or anything else with the right preparations. So anyway, that was long-winded.

12:57BubblemanInteresting. It's interesting that something that is a precursor to THC could be good for anxiety when not everyone, but there certainly could be people to speak about the potential anxiety induction that can happen from taking in THC. I've always kind of Not so much felt it on the wide leaf drug cultivars, but that terpenylene rich narrow leaf drug cultivars is where I have definitely felt a little bit of that anxiety.

13:32BubblemanI never felt it my whole life until I broke my Cossacks. And when my Cossacks was broken and my whole core was just shattered and I was just having a really hard time, I accidentally ended up taking some dabs of, I think it might've been, where is my bike? Which was that biker cush crossed with amnesia haze from Karma Genetics. And I'll tell you, man, that was the first time.

13:56BubblemanFirst, what it did was it exasperated my pain instead of taking it away. And then after it did that, it gave me a full-blown anxiety attack, which I had never had before, but I certainly became... Um, cognitive and sort of empathetic to those that had told me that they had had this happen before. Um, lately, since I broke my clavicle, I've been taking quite a bit of THC, um, Thank you so much for joining us.

14:42BubblemanYou don't realize how often you move your shoulder and how often you feel it. So it's always neat. Wade was speaking to this last week in regards to how he's able to use cannabis for sort of really the first time in his life to really feel the effects of it for what he's been suffering with, which has been a form of cancer. So Shout out to Wade.

15:06BubblemanHopefully he's doing okay today and we'll see his smiley face in here. I wanted to welcome Mojave into the room and I believe it's Etienne's friend and colleague, Michael Krawitz, who's also in the room. So I wanted to recognize those guys as well as Collin Palmer snuck in. I see you there, homie. I see you there. So yeah, awesome guys. Just interesting. If anyone else has anything they want to ask or speak to what Dr. Ethan Russo just shared, feel free to chime in.

15:42Etienne FontanI just want to thank you very much for your work. It has helped many people. It continues to help people. Of course, needless to say, people are tuning in because, you know, you're at the tip of the spear usually. And, you know, curious about where your spear is headed currently.

16:00SpeakerWell, we're going to do a lot more with CBG for sure. Carrie Cutler, my collaborator on the prior two CBG studies, we've got two more planned. One is going to be with a higher dose. I'd point out that 10 or 20 milligrams of CBG seems to be plenty. Thank you for joining us today.

16:39SpeakerSo they might be a little more aggressive in trying to induce anxiety and they'll be looking at things like blood pressure and response to what's called the cold presser test. How long it takes you to have pain when your hand and arm are in really cold water and how much anxiety that produces. So that one's coming up. Additionally, we're going to do a clinical study of a, well, it'd be a formulation of my design.

17:13SpeakerIt definitely has CBG in it, and that will be to treat menopausal symptoms. So those are upcoming. Beyond that... We've got a study about educational needs in relation to cannabis. We've got another big review on amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Again, we're doing a bunch of formulation work and there's always new stuff coming along. On the Johns Hopkins side, We've done additional studies with alpha-pinene in THC, and there's going to be one with mercine in THC at UCLA with Ziva Cooper.

18:05SpeakerShe's looking at beta-caryophyllene in THC in relation to pain. So always a lot going on.

18:13Dr Mark ScialdoneI'd ask this question on the...

18:21Dr Mark ScialdoneOn the webcast that you recently gave, I forget, I don't know, it was a webcast maybe about a month or so ago. Sure. And first of all, again, thank you for this wonderful work. So it had to do, and I think we actually responded, you responded by email and you sent me a reference on a recent study that looked at the pharmacokinetics of CBG But I guess my other question is, is what is this hitting?

18:53Dr Mark ScialdoneIs this hitting 5-HT? Or do you know how it's anti-anxiety mechanism?

19:00SpeakerYeah, the anti-anxiety effect is probably complex. It may have to do with serotonin receptors, but...

19:09SpeakerI'll be honest, I've studied serotonin receptors for decades and it's ceaselessly complicated because they do different things, different places. They can do different things at the same receptor site. So if I had to explain it, I couldn't. I would just say that we know that CBG increases GABA activity and so the anti-anxiety effect may well be mediated through GABA, which is an inhibitory neurotransmitter.

19:47SpeakerMore work needed there, but the bottom line is that this is really an amazing anti-anxiety agent. For people who are aware of pharmacology, just about every anti-anxiety drug is simultaneously sedating and or addictive. And that's just not the case here. So this really may be what society currently needs. Everybody's been through the ringer the last several years, whether it's economic stress, pandemic, war, you name it. So I think personally that CBG is the answer.

20:27SpeakerTo a lot of what people might think of if they need a little pharmacological help with all that stress.

20:37Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd you think CBGA too has its place there? I'm sure you saw this. I was fascinated by this and surprised actually this study didn't get more light, but about A year and a half ago, a group reported that CBGA shuts down store-operated calcium entry, which is part of the inflammatory sort of cascade, if you will, and may actually be one of the underlying mechanisms that Cannabinoids in particular, cannabinoid acids are anti-inflammatory.

21:16Dr Mark ScialdoneSo do you think CBGA, just because of that extra acidic group, there could be some additional, and I guess where I'm going after here, Ethan, so if you were ingesting like CBGA flour, so if you were juicing it or somehow getting the whole flour, is there a nature to wanting to have both the acid and the decarboxylated material?

21:41SpeakerI'd say yes. Often these combinations of the acids and neutral cannabinoids are really helpful therapeutically. The problem is, as compared to the other phytocannabinoids, there's been extremely little work done on CBGA. So again, if you ask me what are the mechanisms of action, I'd have a hard time saying very much. But certainly that Would be a really great thing for some grad student out there to do as a project.

22:17SpeakerBut I can tell you that

22:20SpeakerMy friend Dustin Sulak, his Healer products, they have a preparation that's CBGA and CBG and seemingly have a lot of good results in a variety of conditions. How it compares to CBG predominant without any CBGA, I couldn't say at this point, but often we do see added benefits of combining like that.

22:52SpeakerYou play that instrument behind you. Colin, can you sample this?

23:03Collin PalmerI literally was just thinking the same thing. I was like that. When people worked really hard to do that. And now it just happens.

23:14BubblemanThat was absolutely skunk man. Sam asking you if you played that instrument behind you and welcome to Chimera, dude. That's awesome to see you, man.

23:23SpeakerSince this was brought up, that's a Turkish oud and yeah, I play it. It's 11 strings and it's not in tune, so I'm not going to indulge now. But yeah, I picked that up at an estate sale several months ago and been having fun with it. That's pretty cool. We can wait till the end of the episode. I like it down here, but I need to replace the bridge to make it playable.

23:57Ryan Dank AfHowdy, y'all. Nice to see you guys. I'm sitting here with Sam.

24:02Etienne FontanGood to see you, Kymere. I love you, bud. Been too long. Nice to see you all.

24:12Etienne FontanWell, that explains the feedback from Sam, then.

24:17SpeakerYou can't have two mics so close to one another.

24:21BubblemanNo, I had it a couple of weeks ago. My friend Merlin showed up here for the show and I was like, oh my God, like I put everything in my headphones if I don't have headphones on. So I just didn't speak for the entire show. But luckily, Alec Dixon spoke for almost the entire show that week. So it was perfect. Shout out to Alec for coming in.

24:43BubblemanHow are you doing, Ryan? What's new and different in the world of Chimera? You're producing some pretty nice cultivars for Chimera. For Kip and team there, I've seen.

24:53Ryan Dank AfYeah, they're doing, that's actually a few years old, that stuff. Yeah, but they're doing some grow outs and finding some winners, which is always nice. I'm doing some more lab work, working with another doctor at a university here. We're going to be doing some interesting stuff coming out, so.

25:13BubblemanVery nice. Well, it'll be two years probably before you can talk about it and we'll hear about it, but we'll be looking forward to it.

25:21Ryan Dank AfYeah, it's a little early to give the cat out of the bag at this point in time. It's more along the lines of breeding technologies. So, and I was just over in Europe and my mom passed not too long ago. So I was brought some of her ashes home and, you know, it was just across the channel from David. So I figured I'd stop in and say hello.

25:40Ryan Dank AfAnd he's been kind enough to give me a bit of respite here. So. It's good.

25:45SpeakerSorry for your loss, Ryan. Thank you. Since you're on, I can ask you and any of the other breeders there, is anybody selectively breeding for terpenoid concentration? Breeding for terpenoids is a bitch. It's really hard.

26:07Ryan Dank AfYeah, even going back to the Napro work, we had a whole bunch of lines that were higher in terp concentration. As you know, it's really about having the analytical method that's sensitive enough to be able to...

26:18SpeakerIt's more of selecting and breeding almost. Yeah, well, you're... Yeah, I mean, like any population... A lot of it's epigenetic and related to environmental influences, but perhaps concentration... Overall concentration of terps. I mean, a lot of this hasn't been worked out, but I'm just wondering if anybody out there is concentrating on this line of research.

26:45Ryan Dank AfWell, even like I said, even going back to the NAPRO data, we were doing that. We had certain terpenylene lines that were producing significantly more terpenes within a given line. So we would breed those up and you can definitely create lines that are higher.

27:02SpeakerI know Mark Lewis, he had one in particular I was really interested in. It had 2% alpha-pinene alone out of 3.9% total terps. So that's spectacular, you know, considering that most totals are about 1% on things that I look at. But I'd sure encourage people to think along these lines. Well, Ethan, I've always, I mean, all the, you know, I'm not a breeder, but all the selection work that I've done and all the cultivars I've created over all the years have been terpenally dominant.

27:43SpeakerThat's been my game, always been a fan. That's California. Well, yeah, well, that's a big part of the world too. Terpenolene is a big, you know, it's kind of an outlier in many ways. But interestingly enough, they are all fairly high in CBG. So over the years, I've realized that most of the cultivars I've selected have been 1.5 to 3% CBG and about 1.5, 1 to 1.5% terpenolene.

28:14SpeakerWhich kind of gives it this really, you know, a mellowed effect. Like people have always assumed that like, wow, this is a lower THC variety. Like this is an 18 to 20. It's like, well, actually 28%, but it really mitigates a lot of that. That THC side effect. But once, Ryan, I was at the facility and Steve, Steve Habba had showed me a variety or a cultivar that he had selected, or I'm not sure exactly if it was, maybe you bred that one, but he said it was 5% terpenylene.

28:47Ryan Dank AfYeah, that was the line that I was talking about previously. Yeah, it was five, the highest testing plant that we found initially was 5.7%. And, you know, I had a lot of, I had a lot of faith in Matt Giese's analytical method. He really was quite insane about, you know, correct numbers, not just Getting a reading out of a machine. And yeah, there was a subset of the terpenylene plants that had that really high percentage.

29:14Ryan Dank AfAlso, like you just said, we also realized at that point in time as well that there was like 10 to 20% of the terpenylene plants do overexpress CBG. Like for whatever reason, they don't just convert all the CBG into THC. So you end up with a little bit of a buffer. Thank you for joining us.

29:50Ryan Dank AfYou know, it's so funny sitting here with Sam, but these are all lessons that he taught us so long ago, right? Like, I mean, even when he was growing the haze in Santa Cruz, he had that experience where that he wouldn't, he'd always let plants cure for a month, right? Or at least a month before you try to smoke them because there was, you know, I think that subset of terpenylene plants are just too much.

30:09Ryan Dank AfIt's too chemically, right? It feels too chemically. Whether that's the same thing for the use in the extract market, I really see us going to a place where terpenes become, and other volatiles, but it's such an underappreciated, at least from the analytical, the way the analytics are pushed in the industry. But when you're concentrating plants into these extracts and rosins and oils and things like that, live resins, You don't need to be using 30% plants, right?

30:41Ryan Dank AfBecause there's kind of like a biological maxima that the plant can have in terms of total cannabinoids and total terpenoids. They share the common precursor pathway, right? And so to a degree, one comes at the opportunity cost of the other. And so, like, I think that you can have plants that are even, you know, in the 20s or 15% with a really special terpene profile. And when that's extracted, that's more of a suitable plant for the market.

31:09Ryan Dank AfUnfortunately, a lot of that stuff can't make it in a regulated system where everybody gets so focused on THC, right? And then a lot of these flavor class plants that only produce in the 15 to 20% range kind of get pushed to the wayside.

31:23SpeakerYeah, they're probably unsaleable most places.

31:26Ryan Dank AfUnfortunately, it's the reality, right? Everybody's so driven by THC. You know, I even see dispensaries, not dispensaries, but, you know, retail shops in British Columbia, and you walk in and they have plants literally rated on the menu. The top is the highest percentage THC content.

31:42SpeakerSo I wish it were more experiential. You know, my son some years ago was runner up for best bud tender in Seattle, and he really tried to disabuse people of the notion that they wanted the highest THC possible, but he didn't always gain a lot of traction with folks buying. So it's too bad. Well, in the olden days, you didn't buy something before you did a bioassay.

32:13SpeakerAnd that model probably worked better.

32:19Bubblemani mean it's completely connected to price right i mean this is i i can remember having these conversations with you guys five to eight years ago and i remember i remember debbie goldsberry was in the room and she's like guys it's great you know i love that you are thinking these utopian ways and you want to educate everyone but she's like after selling weed to californians for 30 plus years All I can say is all they fucking care about is price and THC.

32:50BubblemanSo I just wonder how we'll ever escape that. And maybe we won't. Maybe we're the fringe.

32:55SpeakerAgain, people need to try it. If they have an experience, again, you know, as I've been mentioning, if you can be high and have the benefits. Without the downside of paranoia, stress, anxiety, it's just a totally different experience. I think people my age really wax prosaic about the olden days. And it's true. There were very high THC rates. Kimovar is available then, but they were much less common.

33:32SpeakerHowever, the experience was different and it wasn't all THC and all Mersene and a lot of people, older people miss those kind of experiences and don't like a lot of what's out there currently. Ethan, I'd also just say, it's not just, it is older people and people have had the opportunity, but In the breeder community, you know, there's a lot of people who breed and have smoked flower that they don't sell.

34:04SpeakerThere's a lot of growers who have flower at home that they grow and smoke and not what they grow at work. And it's really the market dynamics to me that's really taken over cannabis where people, the people, I remember at one point, like distribution guys in California were like, oh, we don't, People don't want that. You know, like they were making big decisions for what people want.

34:28SpeakerAnd then, you know, you've got this new, really loud, overwhelming, you know, fruity, gassy thing that is so easy for them to sell on the nose, you know, that it just takes over the world. In California, I mean, lemon cherry gelato and all that stuff is just so dominant in the market here. And the growers themselves are like, I hate this stuff. You know, like, it's just what the kids want to smoke.

34:55SpeakerIt's what the distro guys want. And I name it five different things and sell it as five different things. But it's so easy for me to sell this. To me, that's like a real market issue where it's like the ability as a brand and as a grower and as a company to say, like, we believe in our product and we're going to actually put out something that we think is special.

35:15SpeakerI just wanted to say that

35:42SpeakerAbout terpene breeding, cannabinoid breeding is fairly straightforward. I mean, you have to have the background material, you have to do what has to be done, takes several years, but it's fairly straightforward. Whereas the... The breeding for terpenes, it's not so simple. I suspect there's many terpene synthases which can express more than one kind of terpene. Whereas with cannabinoids, CBD also makes about 20% THC. But most of the other synthases for the different cannabinoids, they're straightforward.

36:24SpeakerSure. Yeah. Dave, what you said is true. A lot of the enzymes, the synthases for the terps are promiscuous, can work on different substrates and produce different terps down the line. So it does make it really complicated.

36:47SpeakerBut again, I'm hoping that somebody out there is interested enough to do the genetic work to try and ascertain how these things are controlled.

36:59BubblemanUh, ATN had his hand up, so I just want to, sorry, Colin, I just want to make sure ATN gets his, uh, two cents in before we stray too far away from what he wanted to speak about. Go ahead, ATN.

37:08Etienne FontanUh, well, a couple of things. That's also why we carried grams earlier, um, for people to try, right? Because I work for Berkeley Patients Group. We're turning 25 years. Literally next month. So 25 years ago, that's what we were doing because initially the consumer, one in California, very educated. So they knew what they were looking at, were looking for or towards, usually a very terpene rich, well-grown flower was their preference because they had seen all different types of cannabis and they understood what worked for them.

37:46Etienne FontanBut early in our testing, right, when we were starting to isolate THC and then when we found CBD, that's where we had the problem because science wasn't there. So we had the problem converting what we were missing from science from the effect, right, because we knew that THC was not The be all end all, we knew it was very important. However, we didn't realize the symbiotic relationships that were there or science wasn't able to convey them at the time so that we could get a handle on the misinformation of THC content being the be all end all as opposed to realizing the other cannabinoids were at play as well.

38:40Etienne FontanWe're still struggling with that unfortunately and I hope that we're able to someday get an educational Thank you for joining us.

39:12Etienne FontanOther spikes in cannabinoids, et cetera, to be very most important. But to Dr. Russo's point, yeah, early on, we had to go small so that people didn't feel the financial ability to commit to, you know, the overpriced that was, of course, cannabis, which is back then, you know, $4,000 to $6,000 a pound, which 25 years later, where thankfully is no longer the case. So sorry to be so long winded there, but I thought some perspective for the viewers might matter.

39:42SpeakerWell, maybe medical users can drive it because recreational users, they're going to be, how much THC, what's the price?

39:53Collin PalmerYeah, I just wanted to say, I was looking through some of my COAs and some of my testing, and Ethan, I've always sort of, since the beginning of being able to see what's underneath the hood in terms of what constituents are there making up these profiles, I've always tried my best to selectively breed towards things that were the, you know, we're looking at the COA and saying like, okay, well now this translates You know, for instance, I have lemon G13 up.

40:20Collin PalmerI always believed that it was high in lemonene. And then I started working with the plant really deeply and I realized it was just really beta-mercine that was driving it. And 1.79% to 1% of, you know, lemonene or limonene was really driving those flavor, that, that, the essence that I really loved of it, right? And you look at it and it's 4.3%, 3.2% in the COA of beta-mercine, right?

40:43Collin PalmerAnd that's, that's incredibly, That's that's a that's really notable if you're breeding towards flavor profiles, because myrcene is not something you're breeding for. You know, you're typically trying to get away from that, to be honest. Sure. So it's it's really interesting. But again, as we've all said, the The more I started looking towards breeding with that methodology, it dispelled whether or not that was really the path, right?

41:08Collin PalmerSo I think markers, I think last week we really talked about some CRISPR. I think things like that are getting us closer to understanding the ideologies that we can kind of dispel and kind of work through to better understand the path. But there's so much work to be done because You know, if you cross two offspring together, it's very highly unlikely that they'll even resemble the mom or dad.

41:32Collin PalmerSo I think it's, as Sam said, selective breeding and going towards your, you know, the human aspect of things is still a big part of it today.

41:43Ryan Dank AfListen, you don't need to go CRISPR to do that kind of stuff. One of the things that people are not doing in cannabis breeding, and I know because I've seen this and I've done it both ways, The reason Napro and Mark Lewis are having, and Steve, you know, Habba, they're having that kind of results with the breeding is because they take every plant and it goes to a laboratory.

42:04Ryan Dank AfWhereas the vast majority of people that are doing this, and I would say 99.9% of the people growing cannabis, they select the few plants that suit their goals and they send those to the laboratory, right? So if you try to like kind of come to it from a bio prospecting kind of thing, that's like taking a square kilometer, Thank you for joining us.

42:45Ryan Dank AfHi, throughput, like brute force approach. You might see some chemicals that are hidden in the mix that you would otherwise miss. And then you can pair those plants together or self them. And that way you can actually start driving specific terpenes synthase. You don't have and even, you know, it would be great to understand the genetic mechanisms of these things so that we can develop genetic markers.

43:08Ryan Dank AfBut we don't need that. Like the chemicals themselves are chemical markers. And that was something that Mark, as a chemist, he really hit home. The chemical, the chemosphere of the plant, like the chemo, maybe you want to call it that, is really a reflection of the genome, is what genes are produced. So all you have to do is look for those outliers. And one of the things that we are doing as a global community is growing a lot of plants.

43:36Ryan Dank AfAnd some of those plants find their way Kind of to the top of the cream, right? Like they rise to the cream and then we get these little pictures of, you know, oh, this is what makes this plant unique, be it thiols or whatever chemical, whatever volatile we're looking for and considering, right? But yeah, it's an expensive thing to do to take 100 plants or even 500 plants and send them to a laboratory.

44:01Ryan Dank AfThat's a big old analytical bill.

44:02SpeakerNo, nobody can do it. And that's why, you know, I applaud Mark's approach. He could only do it because he had a lab on site. Yeah, I think that's the way forward. If this is a goal for other people, it sure would be for me.

44:19Ryan Dank AfYeah, Mark, Mark convinced the investor. And, you know, we had some really deep conversations with the investor and came, he came to understand that, That was the way it was, right? That was the approach that was going to win. And he, you know, handed us the keys to the car, so to speak. And, you know, we got to take that toy out for a ride. It's having done it that way.

44:40Ryan Dank AfYou can't go back to the other way, right? Because you just can't make the gains that you can with full lab support. So, yeah, it's kind of the way it is. Well said, man.

44:52Collin PalmerYeah, it's, it's, uh, and you know, the one thing that I, I've found some of my favorite cultivars as I get into the hood of them, they're completely different than what I, what I, constituents that I thought were there. Thank you so much for joining us today.

45:24Ryan Dank AfYou know, even now that there's legal systems around the world with universities that are working, you know, collaboratively with industry, we're starting to figure some stuff out. It's really, the game has changed so much in 25 years. It's remarkable.

45:39BubblemanYeah. Well, speaking of that, I would love to hear from Chris Brassa, as well as Davis Allen. They're doing some work with the University of British Columbia. And yeah, if you want to maybe start, Chris, introduce yourself and kind of give us a little lowdown on what you're doing. Oh, you're muted.

46:02SpeakerSure. So I spent about the past five years Aaron Ward, Working on understanding really kind of the demographic history of cannabis. So how kind of the land races, and really I think different species are related to each other, and which kind of natural populations the land races were domesticated from. And then just recently over the past six months or so, UBC received a permit, although no grant yet, to start some pre-breeding to really take cannabis production outdoors, breed cannabis for outdoor cultivation in Canadian environment.

46:52SpeakerAnd so, you know, in the Pacific Northwest, we have some downy mildew pressures. For example, we also have, you know, a shorter growing season. And so, yeah, the idea is to kind of use this knowledge of land races and also maybe wild plants. To breed some plants that are good medicine also. So Davis has also been helping out with that, acquiring different land-raised varieties. And Davis has quite a bit of a longtime medical patient.

47:34SpeakerAnd so he's able to speak on kind of the efficacy of different varieties and some of the chemical profiles that It might be good to include in our breeding program.

47:50BubblemanInteresting. I'd love to hear from you as well, Davis.

47:53SpeakerYeah, for sure. So do you want me to give my background as well?

47:56BubblemanYeah, give us a little cliff notes of who you are and what you're up to.

48:02SpeakerFor sure. So I've actually been a medical patient since 2011, since I was 17 years old. And I got into the industry in 2013, ultimately because I noticed that, just like a lot of you guys are discussing, there seemed to be an emphasis just on THC and not on the full profiles of the plants. What I found really interesting is one time I had a university lecture a few years after I received my medical card and I noticed that there's like a different effect to it.

48:31SpeakerLike I really paid attention in class, all these other things because I was actually thinking about not even attending my course because I was having some autoimmune issues. What was really interesting is we had lab analysis done on that variety and it had a low concentration of CBG, which is really interesting that this is being talked about in this discussion as well. And it really led me to look into the chemical profiles of various varieties.

48:59SpeakerAnd have a strong interest into land races because what I noticed after years of collecting land races is that there's distinct effects that seem to be standing out within different varieties and it led me to want to Thank you for watching.

49:31SpeakerThere's an emphasis on THC. I ultimately think over time that's going to shift because people are recognizing more and more, at least I believe, that having these kind of distinct profiles will allow for different type of psychoactive profiles. And so in turn, by having this different effect, people aren't necessarily just looking for what's the strongest. Ultimately, I think the correlation is because there's a lack of information on these other compounds within cannabis.

50:02SpeakerAll people who don't really have a strong educational background can look at is the high THC and the best price because ultimately, you know, we live in an economy. We live in a world where people have to be careful about how much they spend. So they're going to be price conscious. And ultimately, when they don't have that information, those are the two easiest things to look at.

50:21SpeakerWhat's the lowest price and what's the highest THC? And so, yeah, I truly believe that over time that's going to change. And it's interesting, just a few things that I heard from Ryan, for example, there about, um, The, you know, profiles that aren't necessarily, you know, 30% THC, that then in turn, if they're like at 15 to 20, have these more like unique flavor profiles. And I also co-founded Island Genetics.

50:50SpeakerSo like we're a Health Canada licensed cultivation company. I just recently left the company, but still really close with everyone involved. It's friends of mine. And yeah, What we noticed is that, yeah, there's definitely some unique profiles that aren't necessarily the highest THC, but they wash well. And then in turn, they have a really interesting effect and product.

51:16BubblemanNice. Thanks for sharing, Davis. And I believe we had Brian pop in, snuck in behind us from Best Friend Farms. Good to see you, dude. Good to see you. Hey, how are you doing?

51:28Bryan Best Friend FarmsNice to see you.

51:29BubblemanYeah, very good. Got a got a powerhouse of a room today. It's really nice to see. I haven't seen Ryan in so long. It was real, really nice to see him. He's always a great source of information. And what you said earlier, the chemosphere of the plant, that might be my new favorite quote.

51:51SpeakerYou know, I was just thinking, you know, it seems like the one thing that could save the industry right now is low THC flour. Just because we're in a supply and demand issue with people overgrowing, heavily saturated markets. And you'd think that what the bigger brands would want is people to smoke more flour of lower potency. You know, make more, sell five grams instead of two, you know, and not that we want people smoking all day like cigarettes, but the reality is lower potency flour of certain profiles is so much more applicable to various situations, different consumers, just it's a much broader You know, approach.

52:40SpeakerYou can keep your THC levels at 20% and still have more terpenes than you know what to do with. So it doesn't have to be extremely low.

52:52Collin PalmerSo, Mojave, I did a study for a year and a half with With a toxicologist and two other PhDs. I don't know if I can say the name of the company, but I'll talk about the study. And what we did was we tested varietals that were in the 30% range and then below the 20s, right? And we gave those patients over a year of time, those two varietals.

53:13Collin PalmerAnd we asked them what they thought was more potent. And every single time, maybe two patients out of the 20 that we did this with,

53:24Collin PalmerEvery single time they were on the lower side of the THC and they thought it was the higher one. So I think what the learnings that I walked away with was we need to do more of this because we need to dispel and better understand what patients actually want and what they actually believe through placebo. And two, perception, as we're all talking about, perception of value is, and we've talked about this on another episode where Thank you so much for joining us.

54:09Collin PalmerThank you so much for joining us.

54:26SpeakerWhen we first tested THC levels and we found the entries into the High Times Handlers Cup that the 25% ones, people didn't like them as much or think they were as strong as, for example, skunk number one that was 17%. And we knew

54:49SpeakerWe knew at that time that it was the whole picture rather than just the THC. But it's not easy to convince recreational smokers, especially younger ones,

55:04SpeakerWell, potency, I think potency is really important. And the fact that we can't, because cannabis is so complex, so chemically complex, we can't really put our thumb on what potency is. But ultimately, it really is important, I think. And that's how people navigate safety with consumption of substances, is by knowing how potent it is and how much I need to put in my body before I feel unsafe.

55:28SpeakerAnd we can't do that. We need to do it. Cannabis needs that to happen. I mean, you need to have a number on the bottle of alcohol. You need to have a milligrams on the prescription drugs. It's just common sense. But cannabis is elusive in that way that we'll never, I don't think we'll ever really figure out potency because it's so... Thank you so much for joining us.

56:05BubblemanWell, it takes it takes us back to the conversation we had with Alec on Hash Church 5.0 episode three, which is how accurate are those numbers? Because that's a whole new, you know, warp that you're throwing into the game. You've got customers that are buying things based on numbers on a package. You've got labs that are incentivized to give big numbers because they know they're going to get your your business if you do.

56:29BubblemanAnd Alec was saying there's there's a sort of dissent to size if you And so, you know, that to me is also playing like an enormous role. So now someone's like, oh, I only smoke 25s.

56:45BubblemanBut they're probably substantially lower than that in the reality. So that that really throws.

56:51Ryan Dank AfThere's so many things going on in this conversation. There's the labs, there's inter lab. I mean, Alec can talk about, you know, within lab variability, but there's also inter lab variability, right? Like people make mistakes in method development and you misquantify or misidentify certain compounds.

57:08Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so even when you have numbers, the numbers are reported on a dry weight basis. Right. The plant is 90% water.

57:17Ryan Dank AfRight. So even if you have two different lab analytics or two different studies, you can't just put those studies together and compare the numbers as if they're the same. They were derived through different analytical methods, different growers, different varieties. And one thing that I have a theory, and it kind of makes sense to me, we screened a lot of plants through the lab, okay, and consumed a lot of those plants.

57:43Ryan Dank AfIn my opinion, there's a sweet spot in between like eight and 12% that people of a certain age group prefer that type of high. And then younger kids, they never really grew up with those things. And so they don't understand the headspace that creates. They grew up in the Afghan world where like 20 plus percent plants punch you in the face and that's how you know that you're high.

58:06Ryan Dank AfRight? And so, like, I really think that, like, the perception of what is high is different between people in, say, their 40s to 60s. You know, I was laughing when Bahavi said, you know, the young kids. It's like, at one point in time, that was true, right? But we're not really the young kids anymore, right? There's a whole generation of kids that grew up on pre-rolls that are like 25, 30% mixed with THC diamonds, right?

58:31Ryan Dank AfSo, like... To really study this, you need a whole bunch of uniform grown samples of different THC concentration and different cohort groups. And, you know, not just reference one study and say, ah, this, we figured it out. You know, there's a lot of that that goes on in the cannabis industry. We take a little snapshot of something that happens in the real world and we make this generalization of the way that it is, right?

58:55Ryan Dank AfBut I think that there's so many variables and there's so many differences between consumers. That it really is a hairball that is quite difficult to tease apart.

59:08BubblemanEven the way they... Sorry, go ahead.

59:10Ryan Dank AfNo, I was just going to say that I think that there's plants in that 8% to 12% THC range. It's not necessarily the chemical profile of the plant. It's just how loud you're listening to the music. Right. And it creates a certain headspace. And there really is something to be said. I believe I really do believe that like that eight to 12 percent on a very clear like if you haven't used anything else that day that provides that clear.

59:39Ryan Dank AfKind of euphoric effect that you hear a lot of people of the 60s and 70s talking about, right? And let's face it, like the majority of the weed that they were smoking back then, the Thais and the Colombians and the, you know, the Highland Mexicans, that kind of stuff, it's not 25% THC, right? A lot of it comes into that 8 to 12 range. So I think it has to do with this biphasic effect, right?

1:00:03Ryan Dank AfLike with THC, you take a little bit, you kind of get Thank you for watching.

1:00:28BubblemanBut then when I started doing the hash hits and was kind of trying to like wrap my head around, oh, I got to like get off my high horse and produce products for people that aren't so rippling strong. Not everyone wants to take a rocket ship to the moon just because 90% of the people around me do. That doesn't really mean it's an accurate description of what society kind of wants.

1:00:50BubblemanSo You know, I started making these hash hits and I hadn't really smoked in a long time. I was like, I'm going to have to smoke these things. And I go out on my electric skateboard and I'd pull out a hash hit and have a couple of rips of, you know, like a 30% THC hash. And it was super mellow for me because I was, you know, I'd spent the last 25 years just ripping the strongest possible, you know, 60, 70 plus percent and super concentrated five to 10%.

1:01:19BubblemanTerpene content. And what I really found was it was just nice. It was just relaxing. It put me into a completely different headspace. And yeah, I appreciate that headspace.

1:01:36Ryan Dank AfYeah. And, you know, there's something that happens, I think, with age too. I just, I posted something on Twitter earlier today. I saw this kid rolling up a joint where the paper was like shatter, essentially. It was a pliable shatter and they just stuffed it like a cone. And it was not only a total waste, you know, they weren't, they were smoking it and half the, more of the THC was going off in the side stream than into their lungs.

1:01:58Ryan Dank AfBut it's like it's kind of that frat boy mentality of like, you know, how much beer can we chug? Right. And I just I don't think that you get the same headspace. It's almost like headroom. Right. It's like it's it's when you listen to music incredibly loud, it's hard to hear all the subtlety.

1:02:16Collin PalmerYeah, Ryan, I was going to say like recording music, that's why we use compressors and outboard gear, right? Because audibly we're looking for the harmonics, right? We're looking to shape the frequency, right? And you're touching on some stuff that I think about a lot is we have, harmonics are fleeting, right? Much like these VOCs or these volatile compounds that we talk about. And to capture them in their perfect state is almost like chasing this like, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:02:59Collin PalmerWhat you think as a breeder or as a grower at that point in time, what you're trying to, that moment in time that you're trying to capture. And that's a forever moment. And bringing it back to what you're talking about, the subtleties are, it's almost like the music's gotten so loud to your point where it's just blaring and I don't hear anything but just noise. And what you're talking about is getting back to the subtleties of harmonics in maybe an F minor or a G sustained chord, you know, or something like that, that allows you to, as a user, really get in touch with why you use cannabis and the things that draw you into the plant and keep us all here talking about it.

1:03:43Collin PalmerAnd the subtleties, I think, You know, more importantly, or what gets us all up in the day to think about this, you know, and, you know, it's it's for whatever reason, we're not bottlenecking. I don't think I think we're just we're not selectively thinking about the whole gene pool as a as a as an industry, you know, in a way we're trying to monetize so much all the time that we're almost losing sight of what's important.

1:04:09SpeakerCan I comment on that? Follow that a little bit and then tie it into something that Ryan said and also something maybe in the land race conversation that we could go down is that the subtleties in people were selecting plants for quite some time and a lot of them were selecting individual plants because they were smoking flower. And or they're hand rubbing individual plants, you know, and that created all these populations with all this chemistry all around the world, these land race based populations, let's call them, because I do believe once it leaves the land, the kind of the race is over.

1:04:51SpeakerBut then the Afghan, Brian mentioned Afghan, like that Afghan population, to me, there's such a big, I mean, it's had such a huge impact on modern cannabis. But it wasn't selected for individual plants or individual traits as much as it was selected for ability to yield lots of resin. And then what they did to that resin over time and volatilizing a lot of the aromatics and abusing it with heat and time, and they were consuming a very different product than what they were selecting in a way.

1:05:25SpeakerSo like the fact that the thing that is the driver of modern cannabis came from a population that wasn't selecting for all of these traits that we're talking about individual like the nuance the the harmony the i mean the the the color and the the resonance and all that stuff right because it was lost they were selecting literally for api they were selecting for the bulk power of oomph of hashish and on top of that They were consumers.

1:05:57SpeakerI mean, think about it. They were the heads that you're talking about, Marcus. Afghan hash smokers, dude, they smoked lots of hash. It was like a race, you know, like, you know, smoking like Sam will say, like smoking the hubbly bubbly. Only certain people could do that. So like it was embedded in their culture also to like produce this massive API resin product and consume huge doses of it to get large amounts of THC in your system versus the guys that were handling individual flour.

1:06:28SpeakerAnd like, so it's like what I'm getting at is like the selective process by the people that were developing these was so different. And maybe there's some kind of weird perverse twisted prohibition story of how that made it into our modern gene pool that we weren't actually selecting those traits. It just got stuck in there. All the dry sifters were definitely sifting. They were breeding for resin.

1:06:56SpeakerBecause they were dry sifting whole fields, not smoking individual plants. And if you smoke individual plants like with ganja smokers, then it becomes possible to select the plants that you like the best, whether it's high THC or a particular terpene taste or smell. And it... It's a much better way. I mean, if you don't smoke the plants that you're breeding for individually, how the hell can you breed for what you want?

1:07:31Ryan Dank AfWell, and they were also, you got to remember, they were also kind of only doing selections on one half of the cross. Right, because we were selecting the females, but the males were all being, nobody was doing any selecting of males. You were just getting what was around in the population. So there was a real friction or drag in the genetic selection, right? There's been some pretty significant things that have happened.

1:07:54Ryan Dank AfYou know, growing indoors and allowing more controlled crosses and use of clones for like back cross programs, stuff like that. But moreover, like STS and, you know, breeding two females together, that kind of thing has really changed the game because it allows us to start making positive genetic selection on both sides of the parents, on both sides of the cross. Right. So.

1:08:18SpeakerAlso turning males, females.

1:08:21Ryan Dank AfAlso, yeah.

1:08:24BubblemanYeah, yeah. Davis had his hand up.

1:08:28SpeakerYeah, I just had a comment about that comment earlier about Afghan populations. I think the situation is that Afghan populations and varieties from Pakistan, you're right about the selecting for resin content over individual plants, but I think the reality is that Those populations are very biodiverse and high in overall resin content, which is true. But it's actually the Westerners selecting just for the THC content, which is kind of like change the change from like a diverse profile into, you know, chasing THC again.

1:09:06SpeakerSo the reality is like those type of populations, like if you actually go and collect wild Afghan and Pakistan populations, you're going to find a lot of CBD, actually like equal quantities. So the reality is that because we've artificially selected in the West for only THC, we've actually bred out a lot of the traits that naturally exist there. So it's not actually that it's like high cannabinoid content, it's that we've only selected one pathway from it.

1:09:41Collin PalmerI have a question for Sam. Out of all the so-called land-raised stuff that I've collected over the years and decades, the stuff out of Iran has been the most hybrid-like that I've ever seen, like every single thing I've gotten from that region. What do you think that's due to? Do you think that that region is selecting?

1:10:07SpeakerFirst of all, first of all, I strongly suspect that a lot of the Iranian populations that we see today are coming from Afghanistan, Pakistan, because let me tell you, they were heavy and hardcore. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:10:49Collin PalmerThank you so much for joining us today.

1:10:57Ryan Dank AfMojave said something really interesting earlier about, you know, once you take the plant out of the country, it's no longer a land race. It's not even that. The definition of a land race is like a biological type that is maintained by a culture, right? And as soon as the culture is gone, they're the people. Yeah, exactly. It's man and it's human and environment. And so once that human use, like, for example, tie sticks, right?

1:11:21Ryan Dank AfLike they were selected for all those traits because that's what tied well to the stick. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, once you take a plant population away from its land and the culture that is responsible for ushering that breeding system, you really are changing it. Yeah. And let's face it as well. Farmers, cannabis farmers are no different than all other farmers. They want to grow better crops every year, right?

1:11:50Ryan Dank AfSo realiztically, if you're thinking that you've gone to any of these places in the last 20 years and you're collecting land races, you're not collecting the plant that was there in the 60s and 70s.

1:12:00Collin PalmerRight?

1:12:01Ryan Dank AfLike people have been bringing in seeds and cannabis is a prolific outcrosser like we all know. So I really, I'd be remarkably surprised if these things were as they were back in time. Because there's been so much money spent all over the world in crushing these populations and crushing the cultures that produce them.

1:12:21SpeakerAnd also, Ryan, another thing happened is, well, not to mention all our influence in terms of sending genetics back around the world. So what is the land race and how much of it stayed in that land? But if you really think about, I mean, my family history with cannabis in Mexico and South America was like, by the 60s, Americans were going down there and they were heavily influencing the selection process.

1:12:50SpeakerIt was no longer just the local guy in Acapulco who's just like, this is our family thing. By the time they came down and said, yeah, we'll take some of this, but can you plant another field of that over there? I'll be back next year. Oh, and this one was good. How about that one? It's like, it really became an export product in the 60s and 70s.

1:13:10SpeakerSo a lot of the original selection Thank you so much for joining us.

1:13:29SpeakerYou know it's it's it's so far it's such a prohibition story you know um about how prohibition shifted all of that and land how we landed where we are today and now i see like people here in california and you know i love the idea of bringing diversity back into the market but people using the word land race to sell cannabis and to say this is a land race or i use this land race cross it's just like It's I get it.

1:13:56SpeakerIt's just bastardization of the word. But it also to me, there's a little bit of a cultural appropriation thing. There's some protocols, some international treaty stuff. It's like you get into a really weird space. Not only that, Bobby, but how do you maintain the land race with less than thousands of males and thousands of females? You don't. It changes every year.

1:14:18Ryan Dank AfWell, and they were, even back then, they weren't one thing.

1:14:23SpeakerYeah, yeah. There's ex-situ, I think, is what you, if you like, land-based population ex-situ means like we took this population and now we are altering it. Yeah.

1:14:36Collin PalmerSo that's what brought this up ultimately is like, I wanted to hear from the group because I, out of everything I've grown, like none, it's all hybrids. Like I don't, I mean, let's be real. Like it's, there's nothing I've looked at. It was like, oh yeah. Like I haven't seen that trait before in some form of fashion or another, you know? Um, it's just maybe, um, that line could be improved.

1:15:00Collin PalmerUm, But I don't know. I don't know if anyone on here has seen things they have yet to truly see. But it seems to me like there's a lot of social appropriation. There's a lot of misinformation and a lot of, you know, quite frankly, hot air that's being blown around. And sure, these regions have great respective gene pools and we should be dipping into them and working with them in some respect.

1:15:24Collin PalmerBut we also have to recognize what they are and What are we actually after here, you know?

1:15:29SpeakerAnd there's a lot of Sam in there. Let's just all be honest. Sam is con. Okay. So, you know, when you're around, everybody knows that everything is half skunk. Okay. Okay. Sam is con.

1:15:45Etienne FontanAll right, this is where I want to introduce a friend of mine who I had come in, who's my mentor, who I've been working with at the international level. His name is Michael Krawitz. And of course, many of you on this panel know him or know Ethan and Sam, et cetera, because he's an OG cannabis collector. But one of the things that has been worked on is this thing called the GRAKT treaty, G-R-A-K-T.

1:16:12Etienne FontanAnd it's a new treaty having to deal with land races and those land races that were stolen. So I want to introduce Michael because he's my mentor and also a part of the Veterans Action Council, which is a national and international organization and have him speak on the Grok Treaty. And then I did bring him on because he he's one of those amazing collectors. So he has some amazing cannabis artifacts that I just wanted him to show and tell and bring him on.

1:16:40Etienne FontanSo, Michael, welcome.

1:16:44SpeakerThanks, ATN. I put in the chat the link to that treaty a little while ago, actually. I was answering, calling

1:17:02SpeakerSo the international treaties have sort of slowly caught up to the past. I was very, very thrilled to have A little bit of input from our mentor in-house here, Sam the Skunk Man, who made an appearance in Vienna at the international meetings to speak about the need to work on this end of

1:17:33SpeakerI don't know what you'd call it, sustainability, paying back, paying forward. It's about respect, respect for indigenous peoples, communities, stakeholders, but also small craft farmers, And their craft and they're not just their genetic resources, but most especially and importantly, the knowledge base that comes along with the genetic resources on how to turn these genetic resources into products. And I would... Go so far as to say everything that you've said so far has been remarkably cool, but also fits into that category.

1:18:15SpeakerThis is the traditional knowledge that you're working on, building a new craft of traditional knowledge. This particular set of treaty meetings culminated a 25-year I'm going to give you a little bit of background. I'm going to give you a little bit of background. I'm going to give you a little bit of background.

1:18:58SpeakerAnd nations and their citizens and stakeholders and industry. But to take it one step further, to actually come to some sort of agreement quantifying exactly what it is that That we're talking about and coming up with some concrete ways. You know, they didn't go so far as to come up with sort of real, you know, what we would call real enforcement mechanisms. But at least there is now international agreements that make it possible to foreclose on those that commit fraud, at least.

1:19:35SpeakerAnd, you know, do some of the more egregious things that we feel like are being done in that, you know, genetic. This is about the seeds that we took back in backpacks full of weed in the 60s, going all the way back to the 1860s, to the 1960s. So this is generational, many, many, many generations of damage done by colonialism. I never thought as a cannabis activist that at some point I would be sort of butting heads with Colonialism and trying to tear down some of the last infrastructure that's built out of iron and all the rusty is not going anywhere too easily.

1:20:16SpeakerBut that's exactly what that was. Michael, let me interrupt for one second. Do you know of any seed company in today's world that is bringing land-raised seeds from various countries, which is obeying these treaties and kicking back to the original growers? I don't know of any. Not yet. And your sentiment in that regard was well received at the United Nations, I can tell you. And this is planting, you know, planting new seeds of change that hopefully will lead to those types of relationships, which are healthy and sustainable, but also give us access to these special plants that give us these special characteristics that are our future.

1:21:05SpeakerWell, unfortunately, we have access right now because people are just liberating them for the revolution. But they don't kick back anything of any significance. Yeah, I think that, you know, there was one conversation I had, the Thai Cannabis Corporation was very concerned that the efforts to work on these treaties and negotiations might actually stifle progress, stifle innovation. And that was a very good question. I thought about it for quite a while, did some research and came back with a no, it wouldn't.

1:21:43SpeakerAnd the reason why is because it moves too fast. Genetics, you know, you're only a couple of years away from the next big discovery of something that's very specific to a particular place. You know, a land race hasn't been really discovered yet and created yet even. So I think that's where the future is. We've disconnected ourselves because of the drug war. The drug war has... Very adversely affected us as a people and made us first smoke more weed.

1:22:13SpeakerWe actually ate more candies and things before Prohibition and also growing indoors, absolute aberration, which will be corrected. The treaty you're talking about, in fact, they want you to share with the government. And with the original growers. And it was the governments that were suppressing the original growers. So it's a bit loony, Tony.

1:22:37Ryan Dank AfYeah, well, and the other thing with any international treaty, it's kind of self-voluntary if you want to be part of it, right? Like North America, United States, and Canada, they're not part of the Nagoya Protocol. Well, let me...

1:22:48SpeakerLet me speak to that because that's a really interesting point that I also did some really intense research on not that long ago. And this was in communication with our U.S. government. The United States government was to say an outlier in these negotiations in Geneva would be putting it mildly. They were a thorn in everybody's side. They were a burr under the saddle of any progress. So they're not, you know, we're not talking about old colonial damage.

1:23:13SpeakerWe're talking about Thank you for joining us.

1:23:33SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:23:51SpeakerAt the objection of and over the body of the United States, the other countries are setting these rules up in their trade. And if we can bolster that activity as a cannabis industry, that would be great. But even if we don't, the world will have to conform to these trade rules because otherwise you have no one to trade with. Yeah, the other thing is the growers are not really necessarily the breeders.

1:24:20SpeakerThey are the trustees of the gene pool at the present time because the history goes back hundreds of years for many of the Afghan and Thai and Colombian varieties.

1:24:36BubblemanChris had his hand up. He wanted to ask a question as well.

1:24:40SpeakerYeah. So this ties into kind of what Michael and Sam have been speaking on. And I was just wondering kind of what does this benefit sharing actually look like? Sam mentioned that the growers are not necessarily the breeders and also that the government gets a cut. Is it solely financial, like the recommendation to give back? How do you identify Who the kind of the beneficiary of these benefits actually are and yeah.

1:25:09SpeakerI'll let Michael speak. Yeah, that was actually something that you got me started on, Sam, thinking about this very hard. And we actually put a committee together to think about this, to try to figure out exactly how. There's a couple of things I'll say about it just broadly. One is that our cannabis team, for what it's worth, agreed that this was forward-looking, that this wasn't about Thank you for joining us.

1:25:53SpeakerCorrective measures of the past, you know, monies or something like that. And as far as the government, I don't see the government getting money either. Let's say a big company goes down and comes up with some seeds for a cannabis product from a country near the equator and comes back with an agreement with the actual breeder. And the growers that is financial and the community, the local community, those who are in that traditional knowledge loop, I'd say, at the local level would get financial monies and shares and, you know, ongoing support product, you know, Thank you.

1:26:43SpeakerThank you.

1:26:59SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

1:27:27SpeakerYou know, the way national government brings in tourists, but then they put them into the local community, it gets the funds, essentially.

1:27:40BubblemanInteresting stuff.

1:27:44Etienne FontanI just want to also congratulate the reason why Michael has been working at the United Nations since 1997. And he's been guiding me for the past four years there specifically. But yeah, he went there at the behest of Jack Herrera and others. And Dennis Perrone. And he is the reason why medical cannabis has been legal worldwide since December 2020. Him and his team helped change the law at the WHO and at the United Nations level.

1:28:12Etienne FontanSo this is the caliber that we're having today on and speaking. We're not just talking about changing the world. We're working toward it. And the group, he's mentoring me as I work at the UN. We're trying to change the Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:28:57Etienne FontanWe're out there countering our enemy, which is Kevin Sabet, who is the main liar who countries like China and Pakistan, Russia and others are using his language to continue to execute and kill people and imprison them all over cannabis. And I just want to give a major thanks to Michael Krawitz and his team for what they have done. And I'm humbled to just to be a part and hope that we can achieve what we're trying for by 2030.

1:29:27SpeakerAt the same time, countries like Pakistan are going to permit medical, at least, just the way Morocco has changed.

1:29:38Etienne FontanCorrect. Yeah. And Morocco is allowing for medical now, too. So it's a huge change. And we all... Oh, a grit of that attitude and thanks to Michael and others and that entire team.

1:29:51SpeakerThe battle is not done until every citizen everywhere can grow for any reason as long as it's safe for consumers. Yeah.

1:30:03BubblemanAye, aye. I support that. I wanted to welcome Wade because he popped in while we were having our chat. He got a haircut. Looking slick. Oh, you're mute. I can't hear you. Nope, can't hear you.

1:30:21Etienne FontanYour microphone, maybe, or your speaker is, check your Zoom.

1:30:24SpeakerHow are we doing now? Can you hear me now? Hey, there he is. Cheers. Yeah, decided to get my head lightened a bit, and it feels good. And yeah, was having a rough day here, but I really wanted to join in. I'll get a chance to hear the first hour and change in the recording. So, yeah. Yeah, blessed be to all of you and good to be here.

1:30:54SpeakerThank you.

1:30:54BubblemanGood to have you, man. We're sending the best vibes that we can your way.

1:31:00Etienne FontanYeah, Wade is part of our Veterans Action Council crew. We're working at the national and international level. So he is part of our advisory team. So it's great to see him and Michael on here today. And thank you, Marcus, for having us on to share with the Hash Church the work that they've been doing.

1:31:18BubblemanAbsolutely. I love stacking the panel. I find the best conversations come from it when there's just a lot of us and we can kind of just, you know, flow into these wonderful conversations that really haven't, I haven't been hearing. You know, like we took this big, long break with Hash Church and I thought, oh, someone will just do it, you know, and there's some great podcasts, don't get me wrong, but they mostly do kind of a one on one thing.

1:31:44BubblemanAnd I just love the idea of having a bunch of great minds listening to one another, bouncing off one another. So appreciate all of you guys for showing up for sure.

1:31:55Etienne FontanMichael has a history presentation since he's a collector like Sam and like Rob. If y'all are okay, he would like to show y'all some cool things from cannabis history.

1:32:08BubblemanI like cool things from cannabis history.

1:32:13SpeakerSo I actually wrote myself some notes, which I see now we actually talk quite a bit in the chat. But yeah, ATN had alluded to my sort of prehistory back in the 90s. I find it endlessly fascinating that he and I came up in the cannabis movement completely parallel to each other. I mean, at certain points, very, very close, we were actually working Thank you. Thank you.

1:32:42SpeakerThank you. Thank you.

1:33:06SpeakerSort of the special forces, if you will, of the cannabis movement. You never heard about us. I like to say I'm that guy. You know, when you say the Veterans Affairs policy on marijuana, oh, that that guy or the International Treaty and, you know, removing cannabis from Schedule four. Yeah, that guy. But It's really my prehistory to my activist history that comes out here. And that really gives me so much joy and feels so good in my heart because I actually was a cannabis aficionado and lover in the 70s.

1:33:51SpeakerAnd if it weren't for just some turns of events of, you know, the cannabis movement sort of got derailed by the cocaine experience of the 70s. And at that moment, that's when I was coming up right at the moment where the cannabis movement had derailed and the president's cannabis program and legalization had been derailed. And there was all this scandal. So I joined the military. I joined the machine instead.

1:34:19SpeakerAnd tried to get a bird's eye view, I guess you'd say, of the system from inside, which actually worked remarkably well, I'll have to say. The work that I've done in the Veterans Affairs and stuff like that certainly could have never been done as a cannabis activist without me being a veteran and having that experience. As tough as it was, I got broken up pretty bad in Guam, USA, have an artificial hip, I have no spleen, some of those things as souvenirs of my military service.

1:34:48SpeakerBut no, no combat or anything other than just, you know, poorly constructed roadways on my way home from dinner in Guam. But other than that, but I think it's interesting. My childhood, I grew up in the auction business. My father was a professional auctioneer, the president of the Auctioneers Association, that kind of stuff. And I always have looked at things from a historical perspective and digging into the junk boxes and finding, you know, antiques and things like that.

1:35:23SpeakerYou know, that was very natural to me and Coming up in the cannabis movement just gave me the information. And this is one of my favorite little bottles. One of the first ones that I found, cannabis corn medicine. Raleigh's had like a truck and they'd come around and sell you flavorings and medicines of all kinds. And this had, it was cannabis for corns, alcohol, ether, and cannabis.

1:35:49SpeakerAnd if it's had cannabis, it was a pain-free corn relief. And that makes sense. Ether and cannabis?

1:35:58Etienne FontanWow, that's got to be a potent mix.

1:36:00SpeakerYeah, yeah, yeah. But that wasn't to be drunk. That was to put on your corns on your feet. But it worked. Evidently, there was like maybe 50 different products that employed that same recipe. And I think, you know, to our conversation, to sort of tap into the conversation that's existing here, I think there's two things that are interesting. One is how they employed the cannabis product. Like with other herbal medicines, this is a cannabis and tolu and codeine.

1:36:34SpeakerAnd these are specific medicines. This is a pain relief, as you can see, a pharmacy size jug that used a low level pain reliever. You could find cannabis and every level of pain relief and each level of pain relief would have a different herbal mix. And I think that's one of the new frontiers that we haven't reached yet as a people, as a cannabis tribe, if you will, is integrating the other herbs into our world.

1:37:02SpeakerAnd how does cannabis interact? If you think you're having fun with terpenes, wait until you start bringing the other herbs into the picture to get a desired effect. But they had almost, I don't know if they perfected it, but they certainly had a handle on it back then with 75 different kind of

1:37:22SpeakerThank you for joining us.

1:37:45SpeakerOur university got 12 pounds of cannabis. We made extracts. We did this test, this test, this test. You can see them pulling their hair out in the lab trying to isolate THC, which, of course, Dr. Mishulam's team did in the 1960s. It was a long time coming. I'm talking about artifacts in the 18, you know, 1910, 1930, 1950, 1960. So anyway, what they did, though, back then was they had specific source material and this is really cool because it taps into those land races it taps into those specific genetic variations and and specific outcomes that are uh geographically specific and what they did was they just used those medicines from those places they had cannabis indica was from india cannabis africanus was from africa and the shit pot cannabis americana was up until the 1920s when they figured out how to grow it better.

1:38:40SpeakerIt was pretty straggly looking from USA. There was actually a discussion in the Pharmacological Association Journal as to whether they'd ever be able to grow a medicinal quality cannabis in the United States. But Park Davis and Eli Lilly sent a team to India and learned how to do it. There's a good documentary record of their Thank you. Thank you.

1:39:28SpeakerHow these specific geographic varieties and geographically specific products were employed in the end product and sort of do an assessment of that. And I think when you do, you'll see that that's how they did it. That's how they employed CBD predominant or whatever, by just using the source material very carefully. But anyway, I think that the museum is particularly powerful. I've got a couple of little sort of exhibits for you in what it can do to show people their own history.

1:40:02SpeakerSee if I can share a screen here. Oh, you got to enable. Yes, it's sorry.

1:40:08BubblemanIt's a default. I don't know why I do that.

1:40:11SpeakerWhat I'm going to show you here is I actually as a collector and as an antique person, I came in contact with someone who Great classic story. I went to a garage sale and found Lister Dewey's archive, Lister Dewey's diaries. Lister Dewey was the point person for the US Department of Agriculture from 1890 to 1930, 1940 on hemp. He was their hemp guy. He wrote some of the most important articles in the US Department of Agriculture.

1:40:41SpeakerThank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:41:11SpeakerThe people of Washington, D.C., their own past and their own collective history. So here's this is an article that came out about those diaries when we sort of made them work. We put them into action to show people their own history and to make them real and have them do something. This is an article came out in The Washington Post in 2010, and it's got The essence of it is this headline here, U.S. Once Studied Weed at the Site of the Pentagon.

1:41:43SpeakerAnd this was something known to some of our researchers, like Michael Aldrich already knew this. But the people of Washington, D.C. didn't know this. And what really helped them to know this, since this header disappears here. Was this picture that was in mixed with the diaries. And this is Lister Dewey on the site that is now the Pentagon standing next to a stand of experimental US Department of Agriculture Hemp Plants.

1:42:10SpeakerAnd I love the smile. Everybody that's standing next to Hemp Plants has this sort of, I don't know, it's a very interesting sort of smile at the end. They have. But that's one example of sort of making this history work, showing people their own history. And I wanted to give you another. This is one more recent that came about as a result of our historical work that led to the landmark change of the World Health Organization position on medicinal cannabis.

1:42:38SpeakerThis is the International Office on Hygiene in France. They were based in France at the time, I think before they moved back and forth to Geneva, the predecessor of the World Health Organization. And that's the picture of those guys there. And in this article, That's the International Office of Public Hygiene. In this article, we talk about the actual history of the prohibition of cannabis because it came to our attention.

1:43:09SpeakerThis is mostly work done by members of our team that spoke French because it was in the League of Nations artifacts and they're all written in French. And they found. What would have to be called the true history of international cannabis prohibition, which started with patent medicines from the United States, specific ones. I'm scrolling down to the photo here. These are from my collection, and these are in the article, the journal article, I shared the link.

1:43:41SpeakerBut Neuralgic Improved, these are pain medicines from Park Davis, made in Detroit and Kalamazoo, Michigan. Um, neuralgic, and it's got, uh, hyoscomus, quinine, cannabis, but also morphine products. Um, and, and other, you know, strychnine, arsenate, aconite, you know, there's a variety of different, um, You know, materials that are in these different products. And again, including things like morphine and codeine, as I described earlier. And the thing is that they were outlawing cannabis, but in fact, Thank you for joining us.

1:44:43SpeakerThank you.

1:45:14SpeakerIt shows you how these artifacts can be brought into life and put into our now and our future. And that's the, for me, that's the most fun of it. I told ATN everybody the other day, I feel like I'm trying to put a mosaic in people's minds. I feel like I'm a mosaic artist and I've got thousands of artifacts in my mind and they fit certain people, certain groups, certain ways.

1:45:38SpeakerAnd when they all see what I see, then I'm done. Then my work, my life work is done. So, but, uh, anyway, that's, that's the, uh, the cannabis museum, uh, a little taste of the cannabis museum anyway. And I can show you, this is the latest thing I just picked up at auction. It's a Linden cough balsam. So this has been a pretty good cough medicine. You still got the cough medicine inside.

1:46:02SpeakerYou can see the cannabis Indica product proudly sold by a producer in, uh, United States.

1:46:15BubblemanSo is that under 0.3% and considered hemp? And that's why you can mail that shit around?

1:46:22SpeakerThe antique medicines are tricky. And eBay, for example, will pull your items and be very mean to you if they find out that you're selling even antique medicines. So it's tricky. But we found some more research.

1:46:38Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat is the concentration of cannabis in that? Does it say on the front label?

1:46:44SpeakerYeah, it's a very... You know, typical 8% alcohol, five grains to each ounce of cannabis indica.

1:46:54Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I mean, I got a very sensitive gas chromatograph. If you want to send me a sample of that, I'll tell you how much is left in there. We really interested. So is that so that that the liquid that's in there is the original contents that was in the bottle, you think?

1:47:14SpeakerYeah, more than likely. I mean, it's it's it's been opened, but it doesn't look like much has been removed. There have been cannabis extracts that we found in a basement of pharmacies that were in the dark for 100 years that were still active. You can still take them today.

1:47:29Dr Mark ScialdoneSo have you had that analyzed by a cannabis testing lab?

1:47:34SpeakerEverything that's in my possession is going to be processed in the archive. That's the next step for the Cannabis Museum on my end. Donnie has a museum exhibit up in Ohio that you can actually go to. It's a physical exhibit. Also, Ben Jonkers has one in Amsterdam and Barcelona. And then our friend Richard has one up in the hills in Sonoma. At the moment, those are the displays.

1:48:00SpeakerBut as far as working on the artifacts in that way, we haven't started that work yet. This has all been pilot work that I've been doing forever. I have a lot of additional bottles of cannabis also. Yeah, yeah. David has probably the oldest artifact that I know of, a wooden cannabis container, which would have been, what would you say it was from, Sam Lee? 300 years ago.

1:48:26SpeakerIt was like 1450s or 1550s, something like that. But I have older. I have seeds from the Peseric Scythian tomb. And those are 2,400 years old.

1:48:41BubblemanJesus Christ. Those are the seeds you tossed at me that day. And I was like, what are these? And you're like, oh, those are just a couple of millennia old cannabis seeds.

1:48:50SpeakerYeah, they were in the little leather pouch found in this Sintian grave at the Pezarek tombs, correct? So, Sam, those are the Siberian or the more Altai ancient samples. Is that right with the woman? I'd love to... No, not from the woman. That work was done by Ethan. Right, with Hongan Zheng, right. But I... I got seeds for helping the VIR, the Vaviloft Institute. I see. St. Petersburg, we went and visited, and they gave me eight of the cannabis seeds from the leather pouch from the archaeologist Rosinko, who excavated the Pesarek tombs in about, I think, 1949.

1:49:39SpeakerWould you maybe be interested in sequencing the genome of those seeds? I'd be... No, I'd rather keep them. Okay, that's fine too. That's fascinating.

1:49:54BubblemanThat's insane. Like, I'll tell you when he threw them at me and I held them in my hand and he told me what they were, I thought, holy shit.

1:50:03SpeakerI've got maybe 10 different ones that are, you know, 500,000 years old, but these are in a unique position, 2400 years old.

1:50:15Collin PalmerSaying there's a chance we could pop those, Sam, huh?

1:50:20Collin PalmerMaybe some of the 500. And with enough Bitcoin, can we get them from you or what? I mean, I'm just kidding.

1:50:26SpeakerNo, I cannot be bought. I'm afraid that's the way it works.

1:50:33Etienne FontanWelcome to History Church, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, it's the way it should be.

1:50:38BubblemanLeave them in your will to be explored.

1:50:47Etienne FontanYes, leave those to science if you can there, sir.

1:50:52Collin PalmerSo here's a question for the group. What could we learn from those?

1:51:00SpeakerI mean, sure, we could map them, but... What Ethan found out when they analyzed the seeds which had been frozen was that they were a high THC variety.

1:51:13Collin PalmerGot it.

1:51:14Ryan Dank AfYou're not going to learn a ton.

1:51:16SpeakerBy high, I might mean 5%, 10%, or whatever percent. But they had more THC than CBN or CBD or anything else.

1:51:27BubblemanSo they were a drug variety. They were the highest THC for the lowest dollar 2,400 years ago that you could get. This has gone on longer than 30 years. I'm sorry, Debbie.

1:51:43Etienne FontanHow many sexy shells does it take back then to get a seed?

1:51:47SpeakerThere was something else that those seeds tell you from their placement in the tomb. And in those old burial sites, they had even... They're slaves and some of their prized people in the tomb with them, as well as some of their prized possessions lining the walls. But then they'll have something right next to their body, which is of extreme value to them. And that's where I understand those cannabis seeds were found.

1:52:19SpeakerAnd it just reminds me of something I was talking to these reporters years ago, and I was trying to sort of, you know, And it just dawned on me that, and this is going back to my cannabis movement experience in that sort of grassroots history lesson that I learned, you know, a thousand pages, handing out one at a time of Jack Harris books or whatever, you know, that Cannabis has been involved in our lives as humans in so many ways over such a continuous and long period of time that by telling the story of the artifacts, you get a sort of a lens into human history.

1:52:55SpeakerSo it's more about what the plant and its relationship with us can tell you about us that this history tells us more than its own. To me, it's amazing that there was no cannabis in the Americas pre-Columbus. I mean, that's just amazing to me, but it's apparently true.

1:53:16Etienne FontanYeah, I thought it was it went all the way back to Gondwanaland too, but there is no reference until, you know, later on specifically. But yeah, I can't thank you guys enough for sharing that history. I mean, it helps us understand when I originally came to cannabis, when I went In 89, Jack Herrera and Debbie Goldsberry were at my university. And when Debbie handed out that piece of fabric and I literally touched it and realized, oh, there was more to cannabis.

1:53:47Etienne FontanThose tangible, really holding pieces of history have such an impact that Michael and Skunk Man Sam. I mean, where are you guys going to add this museum? Is there any sort of fundraising that's happening to make this museum a reality as opposed to all of y'all storming all of the houses?

1:54:09SpeakerI've given up on my idea of opening a museum. Probably the best cannabis museum from both a medical and a... Recreational point of view is Ben Drucker's in Barcelona. That museum is pretty damn cool. Yeah, yeah, Ben has done a fantastic job with both the displays in Amsterdam and Barcelona, really showcasing the history of cannabis. If you want to donate, a couple of museums I talked about up in Richards, up in Sonoma, I don't know if he's actually accepting donations, but I know Donnie is for the Cannabis Museum in Ohio.

1:54:52SpeakerMichael and Michelle Aldrich and others are working on a display in San Francisco, which hasn't really kicked off yet, but that'll be fundraising. And then I'm going to be fundraising pretty soon here on the archive, which I'm going to base unless something changes drastically right here where I'm at in Virginia. But that the archive is where we'll be really Thank you so much for joining us.

1:55:37SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

1:56:07Collin PalmerYou know, Michelangelo's work to look at in terms of, you know, composition, you know, like there's just, you could just go on and on. I could just keep talking about this. But the one thing I look at with breeding is like, you know, Sam, you're respectfully in my world that for me, like I look at your work, I try to study, like, what did you use to make these things?

1:56:27Collin PalmerWhy did you, I read a lot about it. And I think about a lot about that because there's process there's, there's, There's deep history that goes into what you did and then the things that influence that. And it keeps going and going and going. And we seemingly have little snapshots, much like the, you know, I think Ryan said it well, like we have little snapshots of like what individually each individual person's taste or what they're after is contributing to that said phenohon or whatever it might be.

1:56:57Collin PalmerBut it'd be really great to understand, um, You know where we came from you know and and what did those individuals think about and what were those influences and why did they make those choices you know because that's ultimately we're arriving at a really interesting inflection point with all of this where never before have more plants been grown around the world we're all researching racing towards lights and different interesting concepts but You know, we're forgetting, you know, like Michael's work, you know, it's great.

1:57:31Collin PalmerIt's actually really important. It's actually so important that we understand these reference points, you know, because that's, you know, why should you have to make the same mistake someone else already made? You know, maybe that's a better way of saying it. Maybe there's things you can learn from it that make your work that much better. You know, Mark, imagine never reading Malcolm L. Schoen, right? Like, Think, you know, like, where would you be, you know?

1:57:55Collin PalmerSo, you know, I think it's important that we take this seriously and we really look at it from a real lens. I mean, you could laugh about it. You could say, oh, whatever, man, we're just crossing stuff. But there's a deeper underbelly and under sense of real responsibility. I think we're all getting out here that needs that. So a really, like, amazing, you know, amazing work, dude.

1:58:22SpeakerCan I comment on that, Colin? Yeah, please.

1:58:25Collin PalmerI'm hoping others will join me with this idea.

1:58:28SpeakerYeah, no, it's important because I think that probably the biggest selective pressure in the past for land-raised populations, and I'm sure Brian and Sam could know more about this than I do, was climate and geography. Right? That was like the big one. Like, did it live or not? Did it survive here or not? That was probably a big dynamic with, you know, Cannabis Americana in the beginning as well, growing at the wrong time.

1:58:54SpeakerAnd I just thought, I had a comment the other day with Kevin McKinnon had posted some stuff on, on, um, on LinkedIn about aspergillus and aspergillosis and all this stuff and all this mold and total yeast and mold and it's just like dude it's the same thing it's like okay it's a real simple selective pressure it's like does it grow or not and it's like we collectively hybridized all these bad genes that were for not meant to be grown in certain places Because of their susceptibility to molds and mildew.

1:59:26SpeakerAnd we just, because we were in a bubble of pre-legalization, we fucked up the gene pool, right? We introduced a bunch of bad traits that are really dangerous. Like any farmer would say, why in the hell would you introduce the susceptibility to this thing that people all over the world had moved away from? Because that's what you do. You know, if it lives, it survives. So anyway, that one thing is like how quickly we can screw things up by not respecting history and not approaching it like agriculture or approaching it like the people who came before us for hundreds of years.

2:00:06SpeakerYou know, don't grow moldy weed. Don't grow weed in an indoor environment in high humidity that is not supposed to be grown. Sort of like the potato famine in Ireland. Yeah, exactly. It's like, just read, understand the past. And like, it's just amazing how prevalent that is now. And you see all these states that have really low CFU numbers, which is also, you know, you know, an issue.

2:00:29Collin PalmerDid you see Delaware? 500 CFUs? Yeah.

2:00:32BubblemanHow about Illinois, 100? 100, yeah, exactly.

2:00:36Collin PalmerHow do you get something to market?

2:00:39BubblemanDavis has his hand up, so he wanted to speak on that.

2:00:42SpeakerYeah, I just was going to say about the like pathogen resistance. I think ultimately what's happened is that there's just been so many selections in a really controlled environment. We're having like ridiculously low humidities and someone's, I mean, this isn't any condescending sense, but like someone in their basement with like 40% or lower humidity in some cases is So then in turn, there wasn't any biological reason generation to generation to maintain that pathogen resistance.

2:01:09SpeakerSo what's happened is we're losing the ability because we've been in such controlled environments, ultimately because prohibition was so limiting on what it allowed people to grow and where to grow. You know, you had to hide it. You had to make it, you know, um, So essentially, we've lost a lot of that genetic advantageous traits that we used to have from these various varieties of various regions, because like you guys are saying, there was generations of survival needed for these things to maintain and to propagate and to still be around today.

2:01:49SpeakerSo yeah, we've really been losing that, unfortunately. And it's the same thing about, like I was saying earlier about, um, I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question.

2:02:24SpeakerThank you so much for joining us today.

2:02:53Ryan Dank AfThank you for joining us.

2:03:13Ryan Dank AfUp until now, we haven't really known what the next door traits are, or what other traits or bad versions of traits are on that same city block.

2:03:21SpeakerYeah, for example, if you look at cannabis with mildew, there's both resistance and susceptibility genes. So you got to make sure you get the right set.

2:03:35Ryan Dank AfWe're getting to the point now, though, where... We can do all these things with cannabis and it really is just the will of the breeders to invest in that kind of technology. Like, you know, I was speaking with a profit university of the day and they've got genome sequencing down to five bucks a sample. So at five bucks a sample, you know, you can grow, you know, you can grow a hundred plants and it costs you 500 bucks to, um, to get your genomic data.

2:04:03Ryan Dank AfBut after four weeks, you can take that genomic data and select against 90% of the plants. So for not that big of an investment, we can start harvesting information about these plants kind of upstream of us having to take them through the growth cycle. And a lot of these technologies that haven't been available to plant breeders Are now really like, we're kind of living, like I said it the other day, we're living in the future.

2:04:35Ryan Dank AfRight. You know, it wasn't that long ago when the first genetic markers came up. It was 1995 when we had genetic markers that would allow us to identify male cannabis plants. Right. And it's it's been 30 years now and we were way farther ahead and we have a lot more data and we have a lot more access to these tools. So the question becomes like, you know, like I said, with the chemical analysis and analyzing every plant, when did the cannabis breeders Thank you so much for joining us.

2:05:21Ryan Dank AfYou know, it's kind of, it's, it's, I think we're coming up to kind of a make, make it or break it time. Some of these people that are making a lot of money selling seeds, they should probably start putting some of that money back into R&D and really stepping up their game. And that's really will be what allows them to stay in the game or not, you know.

2:05:40Collin PalmerYeah, I think what you're seeing now is actually that. I mean, I've been talking to a lot of guys that are like, man, I got tractor trailer loads of seeds that are not selling, you know, and that's, I think that's due to that. I think you're hitting it on the head. And, you know, moreover, I think it's the lack of, Thank you for watching.

2:06:17Ryan Dank AfAnd look, let's face it, we're cannabis breeders, right? Like what we should be doing is breeding the next generation and evolving the plant, not still growing fucking cookies and Chem D, right? I was just thinking of it. It's so funny. And go look at anybody's menu, right? Like go look at anybody's menu. If they're just taking those same clothes and crossing them over, they're doing it and making money and they're not moving the plant forward.

2:06:40SpeakerI agree as long as there's a lot of skunk number one and ETDG right there.

2:06:46Collin PalmerWell, Sam, it's already locked in there, in my opinion. And I would say, you know, look, Chem D, Sauer, like we have no historical references on that as to where they came from truly, what makes up those profiles, how those even came to be. And that's another aspect of like the history. I think that actually matters. Like, You know, we're still talking about where the skunk and the skunk went, right?

2:07:07Collin PalmerIt's like, really, guys? Like, this is, you know, what I think Ryan's...

2:07:13SpeakerI can say that I bred the skunk out of skunk. Well, everyone should... There's the answer. I selected towards the sweet side because I like the effects, I like the high better.

2:07:25Ryan Dank AfYeah, but listen, I'm sitting here smoking rosin with Sam as well, and I will tell you, there are thiols all up in the stuff that we're smoking, so... That's not the skunk. That chemical might not be there in that variety. But to say that these things are gone, I think is really like people just repeating something they heard on the internet.

2:07:49Collin PalmerWell, that's what I'm doing right now. So I'm repeating that for a reason because I wanted to bring that up because I like yourself. I agree. I think the skunk still is here. I think GMO is a good example of it. I think... The garlic is a good example of it. I think Chem D is a good example of it. I think Chem 91 is a good example of it.

2:08:08Collin PalmerI think there's sourdough.

2:08:09SpeakerThe first skunk I bred, the first few plants, they were so loud and terpene and like a dead skunk smelling that if you have them double ziplocked In your pocket, I mean, it stunk up the whole fucking house. Like a dead skunk. And I bred away from it because I found that the sweeter, higher ones had a more ivory high. And I like strong, but I like ivory strong.

2:08:41Ryan Dank AfI've also found, truthfully, we all know now that the thiol as well, these thiol, like whatever it is, 1, 1, 2, 3, MBT, it's one of those chemicals that just a very little bit can fill the room. Right. But again, it's kind of like going back to that conversation with the harmonics and the outboard gear. It really is headroom, right? It's like when you stick your nose in a bag or something that's heavily volatile, often you smell the turps, but those...

2:09:14Ryan Dank AfThose thiols, they kind of get lost in the mix, right? And you can smell it much better when somebody just brings a bag into the room and you get that little whiff of that tiny little amount of volatile that just takes it enough to set off your receptors for whatever reason, right?

2:09:31Collin PalmerSo this jar, I just found this jar like the other day. This is probably like four years old. This is garlic. This stuff reeks of skunk. I mean, it's the most horrific stuff you'd ever see. It looks... Brown as you could ever see it. But I'd like to get it tested to see what's in there, to be honest, because it's some of the loudest. It's insane. It's like I'm like, I don't even know how this is this.

2:09:56Collin PalmerAnd it's not even being kept well. It's just been in a jar.

2:09:59BubblemanIt reminds me of the Rene from back in the day, which I called pot to get you busted because it was literally problematic. It got people kicked out of hotel rooms. And I'm sure that was, I mean, you could speak to it better than me, Chimera, but I believe that there was some skunk going on in that cultivar. Now, listen, I have a bunch of people.

2:10:18SpeakerThe styles are just so more volatile. They're really, really volatile.

2:10:24Dr Mark ScialdoneBut they're also in there in a lot lower concentration. So if you look at what those guys from Abstracts have published, those things are there in parts per billion, not parts per million. When you look at some of these terpenes, they're there in single digit percentages. So it's an apple and orange. Exactly. They don't need to be there in higher percentages. It's not necessarily their volatility. It's how powerful they are at much lower concentration.

2:10:52Dr Mark ScialdoneI think it's both, Mark.

2:10:55BubblemanWell, we got to get Nick Ziegler on here to speak to that because he's the one that, you know, put his multiple analytical machines together and discovered over 1400 files in hops when he was working at Yakima Chief Hops. We have a bunch of people with their hands up. So it was Davis was going to go first and then Michael had something to say. And then Mojave had something to say.

2:11:20BubblemanAnd once those three speak, I want to because we were getting into the powdery mildews and these sort of susceptible things. I wanted to go to Brian, who wanted to talk a little bit about this fungal blight that's wiping out gardens in the US. So go ahead, Davis.

2:11:36SpeakerI'm sorry. I think Michael was actually before me.

2:11:40BubblemanHe was when he put his hand up, but you did the body language and had your question before he put his hand up. So trust me, I'm perceiving all that's going on.

2:11:49SpeakerI was just going to say too about when we were talking about breeding that Ultimately, what I think's happened as well is that there's like a lack of available germplasm for a lot of these seed developers or breeders. And I think the thing is, too, is that without sounding insulting here, like there are breeders within the space that just want to use other people's work. I mean, Thank you for joining us.

2:12:28Speakeryou know there's a lot of companies just profiting off of that how many companies just have you know cookies crosses that ultimately they're using and without lack of germoplasm being available it's it's also what's limited a lot of these people from producing new varieties or producing new things but i completely agree with you ryan that nowadays i think the future only is going to be and i really see like a renaissance within the breeding um sector that we're gonna see more Thank you so much for joining us.

2:13:13SpeakerThey're not truly developing new lines. They're just crossing together varieties that are popular rather than trying to develop something new or trying to develop and improve in some way. And it's more about the marketability of having a name rather than actually have a product that's differentiated as well.

2:13:33BubblemanGo ahead, Michael.

2:13:37SpeakerYeah, so this sort of interjecting, I'm not totally confusing things, but there was one other thing that came to mind that I wanted to share with y'all. This was a 16-page brochure that part of Davis created.

2:13:54SpeakerI actually, when I located this, I was very excited. I brought it to the attention of Dr. Micaria. For those who don't know who Dr. Todd McCrea was, he was probably one of our frontline experts on medicinal cannabis overall in the medicinal cannabis movement. He was the point person for the National Institutes of Mental Health Cannabis Team back in the 60s when they were just beginning to look into cannabis issues.

2:14:22SpeakerBut anyway, this was a color. This is black and white for our Journal article, but there's a color brochure and 16 pages talking about their cannabis product. And that's their lab. That'd be, that's a nice lab. It'd be cool if we had a lab like that. Anyway, I just wanted to share that with Todd, Dr. Todd, we did this article, the marketing of cannabis Americana. We talked about basically re republished the brochure in its entirety.

2:14:51SpeakerAnd he and I talked about it, but it was a lot of fun. I just want to share that with you guys.

2:14:56BubblemanThank you for sharing that. And it's Mojave.

2:15:02SpeakerI just wanted to point something out because you guys were talking about aroma and like a friend of mine just told me a while ago, it's like, are you on a war against aroma? Because it's a topic that I think we kind of gloss over a little bit too quickly because cannabis to me is a drug. And it's a medicinal plant and it has a lot of value.

2:15:23SpeakerBut when we talk about, when we put things in the scope of aroma, the way things smell, loud cannabis, that word came up, it's such a marketable, easy to market strategy. And we really don't know what part, like Ethan, you know, Ethan is known for his work with David on the entourage effect, but we still don't know really what is that, what contributes. And there's been, there's Ethan had a, he did some work with a particular paper called The Nose Nose, right?

2:15:58SpeakerAnd it's about how we use our nose to drive our selective process and that we know what we like, we know, but... David mentioned something, or Sam, you mentioned something really good last week, I think it was last week, when you talked about your cross with haze and hemp, and you made a hemp variety that smelled like haze, right? So what do we want from it? Do we want just aromas?

2:16:22SpeakerIs the aroma the driving force? Because every breeder I talk to just talks about aroma, right? So that haze, that haze-smelling hemp, man, that did not get you high, but it smelled like it did. It had all the right aroma. So the way we're looking at like breeding and selection and marketing and the consumer, I kind of feel like it's a little bit dangerous and maybe even a little bit reckless to put this big conversation that's cannabis chemistry solely into the aroma class because that it triggers a different part of your brain and the consumer relationship with it is so different than the medicinal drug effect side.

2:17:03SpeakerAnd that's really important because I see people choosing, selecting aroma and skipping over the effect and losing customers, losing consumers, losing patients because they're not delivering, they're not even seeking what we really thought, what we sought out from cannabis, which was a drug. It's not just Jolly Ranchers and flowers and soda pop. It's the drug behind those aromas and how we connect those two Which is still like this big science styles.

2:17:34SpeakerI mean, the individual discussion that that abstracts brought up to me is the most compelling thing I've heard in years in terms of entourage effect is that there's a neurotransmitter precursors that are ubiquitous in all of cannabis that also have a really interesting baseline aroma. That's, I mean, it's like, whoa, you know, but it's not a pleasant aroma or it's not the one that is the market lemon cherry gelato aroma.

2:18:00SpeakerYou know what I mean? Anyway. I think it's from a lack of information being accessible again, because ultimately there's what I've heard from friends of mine that own dispensaries and A lot of friends of mine who are less familiar with the industry is they'll say how someone mentioned to them, oh, well, you know, this smells this way. So it's going to have that kind of effect rather than having more of like an objective conversation about the complexes of all the compounds in it.

2:18:26SpeakerAnd again, it's like it's easier to have that be as part of an explanation than to say about the chemical diversity and all the different compounds that are in it. So it's just more simplistic. And I mean, there is there is truth to the idea that different terpenes will in turn You know, modulate the profile and effect to some extent. But I think I think what's happened is that that's become the dominant conversation.

2:18:49SpeakerAnd it's easier for people who don't necessarily understand the chemistry of cannabis to use that as their like driving conversation or their marketing tool. And it's ultimately, too, I think it's especially like we were talking about with younger people. Um, they're, they're less aware of like, you know, diversity of effects because again, they've just been led to this idea, oh, it smells this way. It's going to have a different effect rather than the idea of the full diversity of the profile.

2:19:16SpeakerAnd at the same time, I'm not trying to dismiss, um, like terpenes. I'm just trying to say that I think it's just easier to communicate that to people. It's easier to have that type of understanding rather than to have the idea that it's a very complex plant. But it's crazy and a little bit dangerous is my point is that we market, I mean, like, and this is a joke and I've said it before and it's just a, but if we marketed like opioids that way.

2:19:43SpeakerOh my God. Yeah. No, I completely agree with you. Hey dude, these Vicodins are strawberry flavored Vicodins and these are the right ones. Well, everyone's going to choose the strawberry ones, but that's really dangerous. And it takes everyone on a different path. And it takes our brains and our relationships with products because flavor and aroma are so primal and they're about safety and about security, where a drug thing is very esoteric and requires a deeper.

2:20:10SpeakerSo to me, it's not the consumer, the dispensary. It's kind of the breeders. And the big brands that have to kind of get responsible and like, not just, not just, not just about, it's an opportunity to me. It's like drugs are, you know, selling drugs is the thing, right? So there's like, there's opportunity with aligning with that type of strategy. It's just harder.

2:20:32Dr Mark ScialdoneVery much deeper than that, especially with cannabis, because it's been shown again, beta-caryophyllene, for example, right? Acts on CB2. But I think what happens in general with terpenes is that they increase the fluidity at the lipid bilayer. And so it's likely, and again, I think this is just still hypothetical, although there's a couple articles that have shown this, is that there's an outside-in signal that upregulates receptor expression at the cell surface.

2:21:13Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd that's a very complicated mechanism because what's happening is again, terpenes kind of intercalate into the lipid bilayer and I've likened it to just opening up the windows at your house, right? You're going to start exchanging the air between the outside of your house and the inside of your house. So when that happens, again, there's a lot of compounds that are secondary messengers that are coming in that could potentially upregulate cannabinoid expression.

2:21:42Dr Mark ScialdoneSo It's too bad Dr. Russo had to duck out because I think this is the molecular basis that could explain the entourage or the ensemble effect, which is that how do you, like Stan has said for years here at Hash Church, that terpenes can modulate the action. And I think Davis, you had just said this too, terpenes can modulate the action of THC at CB1. So how does that happen?

2:22:09Dr Mark ScialdoneWell,

2:22:11SpeakerI also say that a few of them can potentiate the effects of THC.

2:22:18Dr Mark ScialdoneCorrect. Potentially as opposed to modulate. So what kind of mechanisms, just think simplistically, how can that potentially happen? So there could be a conformational change in the receptor active site that makes those THC molecules work better. But I think what could certainly be at play here Is again a signal that we don't quite understand, but there's something coming into the cell that's basically causing an upregulation of receptors.

2:22:48Dr Mark ScialdoneSo now there's more CB1 receptors. With more CB1 receptors, yeah, the effect can be more pronounced. And why a full spectrum medication with full terpene entourage, all the thiols, aldehydes, esters, everything else that we know, You know, we were kind of saying this on Hash Church a week or so ago that we can do a live resin analysis now and between the terpenes and between the cannabinoids, we're accounting for 99.9% of the material that's in there.

2:23:27Dr Mark ScialdoneSo there's, yeah, thiols in there at very, very low concentration. But essentially, we've identified everything that's coming out of the cannabis plant. You know, just even like a handful of years ago on Hash Church, we were talking about this and we were still kind of like in the 90s. So if you think about like what those guys at Abstracts have done, which is they've identified that very minor component that's there in an order of magnitude less than the terpenes, right?

2:23:58Dr Mark ScialdoneTerpenes are there in single percentages. These things don't have to be in there in a whole lot to add a whole lot of flavor. And it's so cool because like I think the thing when Ian talks about this, You know, they'll go after things like limonene dominance in like a fruity or lemony kind of strain and not find limonene in there at all. So it's like, man, there's something else that's creating a citrus kind of, you know, lemon type fragrance that has nothing to do with limonene.

2:24:31Dr Mark ScialdoneSo if you were just focusing just on limonene itself, you'd kind of miss the forest through the trees.

2:24:37Collin PalmerYeah, you know, the one thing I was thinking about the what you're saying, Mark, and it's almost like the ozone layer getting blown up for a second, then slowly repairing itself and the blood brain barrier and those constituents going through. And when, when, you know, a lot of the things that I was doing in the last two years, when we were looking at a sleep formulation, we started really spent a lot of time on cannabinoids.

2:25:02Collin PalmerAnd then I shifted and started spending a lot of time on terpenes. And there was a very clear reason why is because it was very clear that the modulating aspects of those formulations were actually more important for sleep than the actual cannabinoids. Sure, the constituent of it was important to get there, but it wasn't CBN that got you there. It was like, yeah, you get to sleep with CBN, but it actually was like more of an antagonist when you're sleeping to wake you up in the middle of the night than it was to keep you asleep the whole time.

2:25:30Collin PalmerSo I think the modulating, what I learned was, There's just a whole lot to learn in terms of the modulation aspect. And it truly keeps you on your toes. But we have a real problem with our industry is like making these formulations. There's a real line in the sand of like, you have the plant on the right, and then you have farinones and all this other flavorants, if you will, we'll just call them that, that are not from the cannabis plant.

2:25:58Collin PalmerAnd sure, you can get these profiles to mimic in some respect, But to your point of actually the modulation and getting through the brain barrier and actually doing what it's supposed to do, creating those formulations in the lab, I think are far more difficult than anyone in their wildest dreams understands. And I think, you know, and there's also toxicology problems with that. Major, major toxicology problem.

2:26:25Dr Mark ScialdoneSo, yeah, I'd love to, you know, again, I don't want to throw Ethan under the bus, but I think is, doesn't he work or advise? He does. Yeah, he does. Right. So there's this huge business around, you know, cannabis terpenes or are they cannabis derived? Are they not cannabis derived? You know, there's, there's this pump, there's this, um, farm Colin, I don't know if you know them up in, um, uh, Oregon called terpene belt farms.

2:26:54Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd I think their business model. Is yeah, just to harvest, steam distill the terpenes and then plow the cannabis back into the fields. So they're not even going after, they're not even going after cannabinoids. And, and, you know, again, kind of like what Davis was saying, well, I think what we've all been saying, which is that, and I think Mojave mentioned the nose paper and the nose paper, again, I think was like one of those, it was interesting how those papers kind of came out because the nose paper came out While Abstracts was doing their work around thiols and the nose paper kind of like, if you think about it, what they're saying is that there's something more than just terpene profile, right?

2:27:38Dr Mark ScialdoneSo you can't just look at, oh, terpene dominant strains. We were talking about the California terpene dominance and, and, and what, what that means to people and, and the people who like, you know, gassy kind of like chem And Sour D. I mean, there's a certain kind of flavor or aroma in there that's really not citrusy. It's more gassy. It's more like tastes like a solvent kind of like.

2:28:06SpeakerYeah.

2:28:07Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know what? What that does to efficacy. I think when you experience like you're pulling a dab, you're pulling a vape pen and you want that vape pen just to taste like the cannabis from which it's derived. Well, interesting to go back to Ryan's earlier discussion. You know, when you look at These fresh frozen profiles and compare it to something that's been dried and then cured for several months.

2:28:31Dr Mark ScialdoneNot only is the terpene content completely different, right? Right? Because you're losing a lot of those terpenes and drying and curing. But now the whole profile has changed, right? And I think like all that myrcene dominance that you see in live resin and everything, I think what happens is not only does the myrcene volatilize on drying, But I think it probably does maybe chemistry and turns into other terpenes.

2:28:59Dr Mark ScialdoneCould they be oxidizing to terpenoids, right? So like the huge, like, in fact, that hashenine, hashenine, hashenine, am I not saying the molecule right? Hashenine, yeah. Hashenine, I think, is an oxidative degradated product of myrcene, right? And they found that it only happened in the outside skin of the hash that was exposed to light. So there's probably a fair amount of chemistry happening in the cure that you're not getting in fresh frozen or live resin.

2:29:32Dr Mark ScialdoneBut I love it all. I think it's great that you can do kind of like a live resin profile that captures exactly the terpene profiles in the plant, but also do what Sam had done for years, which is like you can't smoke that stuff until six months from now after you've had a wholesale dry. And then a cure for at least, I don't know, four or five months.

2:29:56Dr Mark ScialdoneThen you can smoke it, right?

2:29:58Collin PalmerYeah, I mean, if you look at steam distilled turps, like the one thing I've learned from working with people like TBF and others at scale is like getting those really sulfur, those real sulfur compounds is nearly impossible because you're burning them off during that process. And that's what those compounds are essentially, right? Or those profiles have amount to.

2:30:18Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, maybe a little bit is volatilizing, right? Maybe a little. Yeah, maybe a little bit. When you taste When you taste good Chem D or when you taste sour diesel, you're probably getting a few ppb of those sulfur compounds that you think.

2:30:34Collin PalmerYeah. Yeah. But it's I guess what I'm getting at is it's very difficult. But there's also the economy here. Like someone goes into a store and someone said it like maybe Marky said it. We have a problem with marketing. People are marketing these profiles as such. And an undiscerning consumer goes in for sour diesel and it's some lab concoction of Have you ever bought store-bought turps that taste any good?

2:31:23Collin PalmerI've only made them right from fresh plants that we've grown and meticulous.

2:31:28Dr Mark ScialdoneYou've never bought from a terpene vendor.

2:31:32Etienne FontanNo one has been able to produce anything close to the plant.

2:31:35SpeakerRight, ATN? Right?

2:31:36Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's amazing because like all those flavorants are being used in vape pens today because You know, you know, those are food grade, right?

2:31:46Etienne FontanHere's what you're talking as opposed to properly extracted turps like Colin is talking about.

2:31:50Collin PalmerYeah, guys, I can tell you, like, I've audited all these guys. I looked at all their SDS. I had a really great team around me of of great, brilliant toxicologists. And what we found is that almost every single formulation has Ridiculous amounts of things that from a tox perspective just shouldn't even be in there at all. It's really concerning. I think it's really something, you know, these, you know, people go in for wellness and they come out with other things, right?

2:32:18Collin PalmerAnd I think that's the other dichotomy we're in that I think about. And it's our job. It's literally our job to make great products to serve those patients, you know, because we are patients as well. We need the right medicine.

2:32:32Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, and Colin, I'm not, I don't know if you saw that the couple of very interesting pieces of legislation this week. Yesterday, Gavin Newsom kind of threw down the gauntlet in California outlawing all synthetic intoxicating cannabinoids. But so a few months ago, there was a ruling that Rod Kite had kind of poked the DEA bear And got the DEA to basically say that THCO is Schedule 1 and also the THC, the Delta 8 and Delta 9 from which it's derived is also Schedule 1.

2:33:16Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd then yesterday, or I think the day before, the Fourth Circuit Court just turned that over and they basically said that THCO, which is the acetate of THCA, Qualifies as hemp and this is kind of like a step in the wrong direction because man it's kind of like it's basically giving these hemp folks now a leg up saying that there's court precedent now that this is now hemp and it's all synthetic uh the plant doesn't make this stuff at all and this feeds that whole beast of uh You know, why is someone going to go to ATN shop and buy a $40 vape pen and make them go down to the gas station and get a $10 one, right?

2:34:00Ryan Dank AfYeah, with like five grand in it, too. That hemp industry is making big money off of those little loopholes and don't think that they're not spending some of that money in Washington.

2:34:12Dr Mark ScialdoneRyan, it's unbelievable. So the Colorado Task Force that was looking into this, and there's lawsuits... Estimates that market just south of $60 billion, so greater than $50 billion. The combined cannabis markets in the U.S. combined, they think, is only about $29 million. So this is like 2x greater than the cannabis markets. It's a much larger addressable market. They have no regulations. And they sell on the Internet over state lines two clicks after saying that you're 21 years old.

2:34:47Dr Mark ScialdoneThey're asking you for your credit card information. I don't know how the U.S. cannabis industry is going to compete.

2:34:55Ryan Dank AfWell, they're spending like I know that they're spending big money with certain candidates, too. So, you know, it's obviously you don't want to hear it that you think that that money is influencing judicial systems, but it's certainly influencing political systems.

2:35:08Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, you're absolutely right, because most big multistate operators, including Juana, including a lot of other ones, are now making Thank you for watching.

2:35:39Ryan Dank AfSam was just saying that the best way to fight it is to allow home growing. And I can't say I disagree with that. You know, a lot of these things happen because you've got one set of law for the federal regulations on hemp. And then you have a bunch of different island regulations that apply to the different states. And yeah, man, like, I don't know. It's going to change things for sure when the federal legalization happens.

2:36:03Ryan Dank AfBut, you know, I also just want to say as a Canadian and having done that, Thank you so much for joining us.

2:36:28Ryan Dank AfWe now have like a high excise tax and you actually have to get federal export license and import licenses. So it's really created a legal situation where we can't operate, whereas the opposite has happened in the United States, right?

2:36:45Etienne FontanWell, that's going to change here in the United States. There's actually going to be a hemp bill. We've talked to people behind the scenes that's coming down the pike in October that is going to close the loopholes. Now, of course, what Dr. Scaldone was talking about, which is that court setting around THCO, just kind of put a little thorn in that side because of that legal precedence there is kind of upset the cart because a bunch of Pardon my language.

2:37:13Etienne FontanThe DA has got a hard on waiting for this to be changed so that they can come bash in skulls. They've been waiting for so long to come in and to get with people that that loophole is going to close and it will be bipartisan and it's coming. And so we can act surprised. But I know people who have ramped up who are just getting rid of their stock now because the writing is on the wall.

2:37:35Etienne FontanIt's coming. And when, right after that comes, then comes the hammer and it's going to come down hard and heavy and it's going to be ugly. Yeah.

2:37:46SpeakerThe U.S. is in full renaissance right now. It's really crazy. There's a lot of drug use going on. And if you really, I mean, and the Farm Bill Hemp is a perfect example of that, how it's being pushed through so aggressively and with little resistance. But go to your local head shops. And see what's on the shelf now. I mean, I ran head shops in LA 25 years ago.

2:38:11SpeakerI managed a couple of head shops and there was things on the shelf. Now head shops are a drugstore. It's just insane. Neurotropic is a new thing in head shops, N-O-O-tropic. It's a new way of selling psychedelics somewhat legally. There's a bunch of stimulants that they're selling. There's lots of kava. There's lots of kratom. There's lots of, you know, there's, it's the walls of it. And the walls of weed too, THCA flower and all the, every different vape and every different, you know, cannabinoid, everything is all on the shelf at your local corner store.

2:38:47SpeakerSome of it is a little bit fuzzy in terms of gray area. Some of it's fully legal because it's been tested in courts. But the far out part is it is on Main Street. And when I ran head shops in the late 90s, we couldn't even call it a bong. It was a tobacco store. It was prohibition days. Now those head shops, which are everywhere now, there's way more head shops than ever, and they sell walls and walls of drugs.

2:39:15SpeakerI'm not against that at all. I think drugs are part of human evolution. We like to feel different. But it does require regulation and it does require some public safety mechanisms to make sure that it's done right. But when I talk to the guys at the head shop, because one of them is right next to my local pizza place, and I go in there and just rap with the guy, and he tells me about all the drugs he's selling all day long.

2:39:40SpeakerI mean, it's like you can call it whatever you want, man, but it's drugs and they're not people aren't coming in for rolling papers and vapes. They're coming in for these weird different combo drugs, Michael, which is far out because it's like these compounded, you know, things where it's kratom and some kind of other stimulant and some kind of other weird thing. And they're selling it like hotcakes all day long.

2:40:05SpeakerAnd this is in LA when you still have dispensaries too. So you can get the legal weed. You can get the trapper weed. You can get the head shop weed. And you can get mushrooms at the church up in Oakland. And you can get DMT at the other place in Santa Cruz. And then at every thousands and thousands of head shops all over the state, you can buy all these other substances.

2:40:31SpeakerAnyway, something's going on. And the fact that like places like Minnesota sell THC beverages and THC vapes at almost every gas station now, it's not going back. That's all I'll say. It's just, we're not going back. And whether it's a farm bill path or whatever, or whatever loophole or whatever, Something's going on.

2:40:53Etienne FontanSpeaking of that, actually, Michael Krauts is actually going to be testifying specifically on Kratom. Part of our international group helped keep Kratom legal a few years ago when other countries wanted to make it. Michael Krauts, you want to speak on that, what you'll be speaking for? I think it's the 20th in D.C.?

2:41:13SpeakerWell, yeah, I guess just the basics of this hearing, there's going to be considerable amount of scientific support, some very top medical experts, including the head of NIDA, National Institutes of Drug Abuse, which is interesting. But my aspect of it is just to talk about veterans issues, the difficulty of dealing with plant material in, you know, veterans affairs hospitals are kind of like prisons in the regard that they really work on label mostly they don't really work even off label let alone anything outside the box so getting like plant material inside the VA pharmacy short of An FDA approved medicine is really a, it's our challenge at our Veterans Action Council.

2:42:06SpeakerBasically, it's one of our key challenges. But that's what we're trying to do in the end of the day. And Kratom, like cannabis, is helping a lot of veterans And other people not hit rock bottom with opiates and wind up being one of the statistics with opiate death or suicide death as well for some of our groups like veterans, you know, police, first responders, et cetera. So having cannabis and Kratom sort of pushed out of the system by drug testing is not, that doesn't lead you to the end you want.

2:42:40SpeakerYou know, that's basically what I'm going to be telling these guys.

2:42:46SpeakerI was just going to comment on talking about like, you know, the synthetic products and the other things getting around. I think part of that is because there's still legislation against cannabis in so many states. Of course, people are going to try to find every single way to get around the laws and regulations to get it through. And so ultimately what I do think is going to be a shift is that once there's more federal recognition of it, once at very least that we have Thank you for joining us.

2:43:31SpeakerAnd it's leading again to more misinformation. Oh, it's a naturally derived product or something like that, rather than actually being from cannabis. And I just wanted to comment on one thing that was mentioned earlier when we were talking about strain profiles and the synthetic ones. I think there's even more than just that. I mean, when we were talking about sour diesel, There's people that I know that will tell me that they have sour diesel and I smell like this.

2:43:59SpeakerThis is definitely not sour diesel. So there's not even really a regulation, if you will, in the legal Canadian market here that recognizes specific varieties and specific profiles. And that's part of, again, the problem with all the misinformation within the cannabis space is there's users who don't necessarily know what's what. I usually give this as an example of let's say pink kush was smelling really or selling really well it has a specific smell to it has a specific effect has a specific look well if one company is having success with that ultimately a bunch of other companies there's nothing stopping them from saying oh yeah we have pink kush and just renaming a variety that they have that name and ultimately it leads to more misinformation and then additionally as well they're You know, let's say someone sees that there's this pink cush now at a more budget conscious price.

2:44:50SpeakerThey go and try it and they think, oh, maybe I'm building up a tolerance to this variety. I didn't really like it as much. And it takes away from the market share of someone who is actually creating a real variety. That's unfortunate because it's, again, just leading to more misinformation and more problems within the industry.

2:45:06Ryan Dank AfThat's always been the way it was. The names travel faster on the internet than the cuttings do. And I mean, this was happening back with Skunk and Northern Lights. Those names would be in the magazine and someone would take that name and put it on a flower that they had that wasn't selling. And in that new market, people come to believe that that's the Skunk one or the Northern Lights or the Cookies or whatever the name is.

2:45:29Ryan Dank AfAnd, you know, I know I harp on this a lot, talk about plant registrations, but this is one of the things that plants registration solves, right? Because the name is granted to the PBR holder upon registration. Right. So it's like, you know, somebody in Holland, one of the seed companies years ago, ran around and tried to to register all these names as commercial trademarks. It's copyright.

2:45:54Collin PalmerYeah, it's copyrights. That was recently, like literally recently someone did this with Hayes.

2:45:59Ryan Dank AfThis was like in the 90s, right? Yeah, in the 90s. And they they came and actually tried to enforce all these things. And Sam had actually So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

2:46:21Ryan Dank AfBut yeah, like in the registration process, when you get a registration is granted to a plant breeder, that's how a plant gets its name, right? And how a plant product gets his name. So you can walk into a grocery store in New York City or L.A. or Washington, D.C. or anywhere in Canada or even anywhere in Europe and get a Granny Smith apple. And they're the same plant, right?

2:46:44Ryan Dank AfAll the same plant.

2:46:46SpeakerSorry to interrupt real quick, but those are two different things. The plant variety protection gives the name assigned to that patent or plant variety protection, but it doesn't give it the name in the marketplace. That's a trademark.

2:47:02Ryan Dank AfNo, not for an apple.

2:47:04SpeakerNo, but the trademark is not as high as a plant breeder's right.

2:47:09Ryan Dank AfYeah, like if it went to somebody, if somebody tried to take a product. The trademark will lose. Yeah.

2:47:15SpeakerThe trademark lasts and the patent, patents expire, trademarks don't. So the reason that that Granny Smith or the power behind the name with a, you know, an apple variety is the trademark name so that on the patent, it could be in the application is a name and that name is defendable in court. But in the marketplace, in terms of interstate commerce and how it's traded, at least in the US with a patent that's handled by the trademark office and trademarks aren't allowed or aren't granted to cannabis at all in the US.

2:47:48Ryan Dank AfBut patents are granted to cannabis in the US. And you have to remember, Mojave, as well, that the US is like the only place other than Australia that recognizes plant patents. This thing is not done through, these things are not done through patents outside of the US, right? They're done through PBR, and the PBR is the dominant system.

2:48:06SpeakerYes, the copyright doesn't hold up nothing to plant breeders right in the EU, in Canada, and in most of the civilized world.

2:48:17Ryan Dank AfYeah, you couldn't take a name of a plant, sorry, a PBR protected variety and try to apply it to a good. You'd lose in court.

2:48:28SpeakerBut my point is in the U.S. right now, anybody can call any plant anything they want legally. And there's no protection against that whatsoever.

2:48:38Ryan Dank AfSo, you know, I think to the speaker's point, I'm sorry, I forgot your name. You're exactly right. In the marketplace, people do go out and do these things because these varieties are not protected. They're not registered varieties. And so essentially, we take these plants and give them a name and you release them into the public domain. And what happens, happens.

2:48:59SpeakerBut I have a variety that I can't attach a name to. So it has a name. It has a name in the application, but in the marketplace, I can't claim any name to it legally.

2:49:09Collin PalmerSo, Mojave, look in our chat. I just posted exactly what Ryan just said. This gives way to exactly what I posted here. This guy just took a haze plant and was like, now it's unique flower original haze.

2:49:22Ryan Dank AfI saw that. Yeah.

2:49:24SpeakerI've actually communicated with the guy. It's like, really? Yeah. I mean, there was a number of Sam Hayes, original Hayes. Original Hayes was the name given to it by the breeders. And that's the name I stuck with. But there's a Neville's original Hayes. There's a Greenhouse original Hayes or Hayes, whatever. I don't think they use the word original.

2:49:51Ryan Dank AfYou got to remember, too, a patent is granted, but that's not the final ruling on if you actually own that piece of intellectual property. It's kind of like a stake in the ground, right? It's like someone saying, hey, I own this thing that there is an entire process for challenging patents and, you know, essentially the court system that deals just that. So that although that that guy is staked, you know, something in the ground, And even like... Nobody has appealed it yet.

2:50:23SpeakerIf I was to appeal it, I bet you I could knock it down. But I have no interest in it. You know, let the stupid people do what stupid people do.

2:50:34Ryan Dank AfAnd so far... Yeah, the important thing is that they become talking points and we use them for education, right? Because, yeah, you know, when we did those first patents with Napro... We'll be right back.

2:51:07Ryan Dank AfBecause it typically even in, you know, in PBR countries, chemical profile is not enough to register a variety as different. It's done on morphological traits. So it really allows that patent system in the United States allows, it kind of fits the niche of what cannabis is. Right. Because you can find these new plants that are chemically unique.

2:51:26SpeakerYou plant breeders rights has not grown up to the real world of the importance of terpenes and things like that. You know, they will, it will happen. And I just wanted to mention too, that I got my first, uh, uh, UPOV plant breeders rights in 97. I had applied maybe a year or two earlier, but in 97, they were granted. And I was the first one in the world to get a drug variety with plant breeders rights.

2:52:03SpeakerAnd we did it. We didn't do it because we thought, I mean, we did it just as a process, just to like be adult about cannabis and see what it would be like. But we also got a variety protected through UPOV as well. And we also, Sam, you probably were the one who helped us do this, but we got the enforcement division behind it as well. So we got the Dutch group, their name fleets me right now, but they've basically, so we have the UPAW protected plant, and we have a group that will enforce that protection all around the world.

2:52:34SpeakerThey have offices in every agricultural region around the world. Yes, I'm the one that showed these people. I had worked with them for a really long time. And Ryan knows them. So does Rob. I've taken both of them to visit with them. And she, her office, she was on the UPOB board. And she's the one who kept saying, they will change, they will add chemical profile, they will add terpene, et cetera, et cetera.

2:53:08SpeakerBut it still hasn't broken through to UPOB yet.

2:53:12Ryan Dank AfYeah. Whereas in patents, it is. All it takes is someone with the money to apply to essentially do the process to have them change the system. Right. It's actually the type of thing that would be really nice if everybody buy them.

2:53:26SpeakerThey all know it needs to change, but it hasn't changed yet.

2:53:31Collin PalmerSo what does everyone think of like a Canopedia, Prior Art, registering, sequencing? What is that helpful for, for the people out there that don't have access to, you know, filing their novel plants? And, you know, is that even helpful for people in your opinion? Because I go back and forth and I think it's helpful to understand relationships between things and it's neat to see that. But there's just such a large big picture being missed there at times.

2:54:04SpeakerAnd for all cannabis science, regardless of their motivation, regardless of anything, I want to know.

2:54:12Ryan Dank AfYeah, I think the question though, is it a useful system to be able to defend intellectual property? I think other than being able to say, I have a timestamp on this with this genetic at this point in time is helpful, but even that doesn't tell the whole story, right? Like that doesn't prove development and it doesn't prove ownership. And I think it's, again, it's something that happens in the cannabis industry a lot, right?

2:54:38Ryan Dank AfYes. Yeah. People feel that they can't participate in the legal system. And so they run around and they try to come up with reasons why they're going to develop their own system. And, you know, everybody should do what they want to do. And it becomes essentially like it's it becomes opt in. Right. And an opt-in system when it comes to enforcement is fucking useless. Excuse my, it's totally useless.

2:55:06Ryan Dank AfRight. And that's, that's why having like, like, like Mojave said, when you get the registration and then you sign a contract with a company that is, that takes on responsibility of enforcement.

2:55:18SpeakerBut like a patent, patents can cost a bloody fortune to defend if you get a lot of opposition. The same thing with UPOG. If you have a breeder's rights to a particular variety and you know other people have copies of that variety and are growing it and selling it, let me tell you, growing after them ain't cheap. Yeah. Can I give you my poor man's IP tip and...

2:55:46SpeakerI think this really would work out of all the different like plant registration, non-protected plant registration, herbarium slash kind of send us in your sample, phyllos, whatever. This is the one thing that I've done for about 10 years that is I think foolproof is freezing your cotyledon.

2:56:07Collin PalmerYeah, it's like mailing your songs to yourself, right?

2:56:10SpeakerYeah, but it's even better though because it shows that you were the person who handled that seed.

2:56:15Collin PalmerThat's brilliant. I really think it's a smart idea. I haven't heard that concept before.

2:56:21SpeakerAnd that way, sure, you don't have IP. Sure, it's not enforceable. But if anyone, like Sam says, enforcing a patent, like I have a patent, but I don't have a team of lawyers. So if someone wanted to challenge me and just steal my plant, they would get away with it. They could outspend me easily. I've been outspent before by people who ripped me off.

2:56:41Ryan Dank Afyou know but so then you're in court and then you pull out your little well okay well did you plant the seed okay then do you have these little leaf tissue things that show it came off of a little seedling say but so then say they reach into their bag and they've developed the breeding technology that allows them to have your plant material in their seed how do you prove that it came from yours right like Yeah.

2:57:02SpeakerThe trouble is that they're sharks and minnows. We're all minnows and the sharks are out there. Yeah.

2:57:12Collin PalmerWell, it's yeah. And it's like the music industry. It's like the moment you show a song to someone, it's like it, that chorus or verse may end up in like 20 other songs in a session. Right. And before yours even gets out, you're like, shit, I showed that guy that, you know, doesn't matter.

2:57:29BubblemanDefinitely seems to be part of human nature.

2:57:31Ryan Dank AfYeah. Certainly part of the cannabis industry's nature. There's no doubt about it.

2:57:37Etienne FontanWell, there was no other nature. It's not like there were germplasm institutes and places doing it right that, you know, Sam had to go around and actually, you know, fund and support them and make those a reality as well as others. Otherwise, you know, what would we have if it, you know, sure, the Grok Treaty is now the treaty of the, and the reality that we experienced, but what if it hadn't been for the Aryans and

2:58:04SpeakerAnd to tell you the truth, when I collected seeds starting in the 70s, there weren't none of these laws. So I could legally go collect land races, bring them to California, reproduce them, sell them, do whatever I wanted. And there was no regulations. I think it's better that there is a regulation and that the caretakers and the breeders and the original farmers should get some sort of piece of the pie.

2:58:32Collin PalmerYeah, that sounds right. So when you were collecting seeds, so you've said this a few times over the years where they're literally, I mean, basically what you're saying to me and what I'm hearing, I'll distill it all the way down, is all the seeds that we have, we shouldn't technically have because we've stolen them. Right. As a community.

2:58:49SpeakerNo, that's not one thousand percent. But I'd say. So what is it? So that's probably true.

2:58:57Ryan Dank AfLook, it's exactly like colonialism. I mean, you were born in America. You're an American citizen. But your genetic roots come from there. You you are essentially a seed of the evil spawn of colonialism. Does that mean you're wrong or you can't exist?

2:59:13SpeakerDo you owe the blacks a bunch of money because you're white? Do you owe the American Indians a bunch of money because you're white? That's a hard nut to crack. Here's an interesting thing is that in a lot of the cannabis... So I think more cannabis germplasm came from export than from people sourcing it from location. They exported illegal weed and us peasants collected the seeds out of it.

2:59:42SpeakerThat's absolutely true, I think.

2:59:44Ryan Dank AfIt was forced upon us is what you're saying. It was forced upon us, really.

2:59:51SpeakerExactly. It showed up in my back door and little pellets fell out and I put them in the ground. But interestingly, I think a big narrative is that we went out into the world and brought these seeds back. But I think fewer, that's Sam, and there's very few Sams in the world that actually went there and got seed, where most of the germplasm came in the form of flour or being shipped to the U.S.

3:00:16SpeakerI think there's more Sams today than there was 30, 40 years ago, because there's a lot of people out there going and collecting land races and trying to profit from them.

3:00:29Ryan Dank AfI really like the philosophy of UPOV, and that is, yes, the things that you can develop You have the right to commercially profit from them. But if you use the UPOV system and you do get a registration, for example, you have to make that variety available for home use. You have to make it available for other breeders. They can't just knock it off and sell the same thing that you created, but they can use it in the development of future plant varieties.

3:00:58Ryan Dank AfAnd the reason is that plant genetic resources are... There should be available to all of humanity, right? Like plant genetic resources themselves should not be owned by a corporation or an individual. Right. So, yeah, you can benefit for a period of time from the developments that you make from those resources.

3:01:20SpeakerIn some countries, you have to give the original breeder of a variety that is used to create subsequent varieties. You have to give them a portion of the profits. In other countries, it's not allowed without the breeder's rights. And The breeder can say you can't do it. So there's a lot of different iterations of that.

3:01:46Ryan Dank AfYeah, and that's one of the real differences about the patent is that when you actually have the patent, You don't have to make those plants available to other people. They are the corporate property of whatever entity registered them or holds the patent.

3:01:59Collin PalmerIt's really important. It's super important. It's a very different root of the system is what it is, right? Yeah, it is, right? But there's other systems around us, like the music industry, that live and die by that. You can't sample an artist without them saying okay and going through either their state or them personally.

3:02:20SpeakerAnd they do it if you get caught.

3:02:24Collin PalmerYeah, but it's really easy to do it, you know, to, you know, or you have, you know, for me, I've sampled people and then I have to go into the session and basically mimic it. Right. And recreate it. So it's. It goes both ways. But I like that because it holds people to a standard. And it keeps our, you know, we were talking about earlier in the conversation, history intact.

3:02:48Collin PalmerLike there's a historical reference here where this began and why. And here's where it's going. And that person and that that legacy is along with it. So. I'd love to see Sam get, you know, in this, you know, in the same light, residuals, right?

3:03:04SpeakerOh, no, that's not why I did it.

3:03:07Collin PalmerOf course not.

3:03:08SpeakerThe reason I produced millions and millions and millions of seeds. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:03:43Ryan Dank AfYeah. Right. You haven't. So it's, you know, if people are really, truly concerned about owning these things, they shouldn't be selling the seeds. And just be aware that if you are selling the seeds, you can kiss your rights goodbye because you sell those rights when you sell the seeds. Yeah. Right. So it's an important distinction to understand.

3:04:02BubblemanAnd it's, you want to jump in there, Davis? You had your hand up for a while now.

3:04:06SpeakerI was just going to comment on the idea about land races again, that like they were stolen. I think, I think there are situations where people didn't have permission or ultimately made, you know, through some nefarious means to get the opportunity to take them. But I mean, like I've got, I've got five contacts, three are family friends of mine, which is where I've sourced and developed my germplasm library.

3:04:29SpeakerAnd I can speak for my family friends that are preservationists and like very much into, you know, preservation of culture, history, all of that, not just into cannabis, that they want to make sure that, you know, the information from those regions, the type of culture gets recognized and ultimately like the hardships and everything that's associated. Because in a lot of these regions that are isolated, that there still is, you know, cannabis cultivation that hasn't been alterated, adulterated.

3:04:58SpeakerAnd I want to state while I'm saying that some of these areas likely have had adulteration over decades or even since. And were those seeds imported into the United States or were they coming from different countries? They were coming from different countries originally. And it was illegal. Yeah, I guess that's fair to say. I'm always just making the point that there's no ifs or buts about it.

3:05:25SpeakerIf you don't go through the UN treaty, biodiversity, the Nagama treaties, etc, and the newer one, it's illegal.

3:05:37Etienne FontanOkay. That's the thing, is that those reality that we have had, we exist under, and now it's going to be an interesting fight. Currently, that treaty, the Grok Treaty, Michael, I believe is being tested by Neem and India. India is going after people who extracted and took Neem, and this is going to be the first kind of world test case Um, specifically under the new treaty. Am I correct on that, Michael?

3:06:09SpeakerOh, you're following that more than I am. So, yeah.

3:06:16Etienne FontanSo it's a new frontier people. And that's, that's the thing. What, what, what has existed and what does exist is, is down a new pathway. And this is The air of responsibility that we're talking about that has been deflected for generations now has to come home to roost. And, you know, it's it's a new day and we're looking forward to seeing what happens, who rises to the occasion.

3:06:40Etienne FontanAnd as stated, you know, India is taking its first step and it's around meme. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:07:07SpeakerWell, with Neem too, it's been used for thousands of years as the toothbrush in India. Just the stems.

3:07:17Ryan Dank AfHey, just to say, if you're in Canada and those seeds came into the country, Canada is not a signatory to the Nagoya Protocol. So, again, it comes down to enforcement. Unless you were like advertising it as... Directly from a certain population down in South America, there's no enforcement action to go after you because Canada is not part of a signatory to the party. And even within the Nagoya Protocol, it's more about systems and less about enforcement.

3:07:53Ryan Dank AfThere is no real enforcement arm to the treaty. So if you violate the rules, there's nobody to come after you.

3:08:00Etienne FontanYeah.

3:08:01Ryan Dank AfRight. So it's like this again. I thought I was saying like these systems are kind of to a degree they're opt in. Now, Holland is in a different boat, right? Because Holland is a signatory to these treaties. I think all the European nations are. So, you know, sure, maybe that could affect trade of that variety in Europe, but it won't in Canada. So, you know, these things aren't so cut and dry.

3:08:29Ryan Dank AfJust because there's a treaty, it doesn't mean that people aren't going to still do these things. You know, there's all sorts of treaties that North Americans and, you know, principally Canada and the United States, which are really a lot of the offending nations in these cases. The government just said, hell no, we're not signing on to that.

3:08:45SpeakerAnd Holland's not so holy. I mean, remember where the tulip came from. It came from Turkey or that general area. And Holland is the one who took Tulum to its heights. Yeah. I have... I have a vision of hopefully not too naive vision that these large interests, you know, huge corporate interests and individual, you know, small societies of growers, of indigenous peoples, craft growers, traditional medicine people, et cetera, can not just sort of All of these people exist, coexist, but actually really support each other.

3:09:28SpeakerThat I would contend colonialism took great products and drove them into the ground. And if you want to have sustainability, you need to maintain that conduit between the source and the end product. Big corporations that have tried to get away from that and create their own universe have really Thank you so much for joining us.

3:10:09Ryan Dank AfBut when it comes to cannabis, they're importing all sorts of unregistered varieties. And nobody even says anything about it. So it's really, I don't know.

3:10:17SpeakerThat should change. Hopefully that's what ATN is saying. Hopefully that's the new frontier. It's hard to say who will put their first toe on that line. But the emergence of international regulated medicinal cannabis markets and sales is a good first step.

3:10:35Ryan Dank AfAnd it's like the United States. It's like trying to tie together all these patchwork rules that are so different. It becomes a quilt.

3:10:44SpeakerIf any seeds are found in the legally imported international cannabis, the growers here in America will use them.

3:10:57Ryan Dank AfYeah.

3:10:58SpeakerI'm not sure it's legal, but they'll use them. And I was just going to say, there's no guarantee that even if you go through the legal pathway that you're bringing the most benefit to the people who should be getting that benefit. So like right now, you've got all these companies which are operating in a gray area in this land race, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, India, seed exchange world that's happening right now.

3:11:23SpeakerAnd it's really big. It's great. And some of them are working with local people to, you know, share the profit and to help tell the story. And, you know, it's kind of a, it's a social equity play enrolled in there. But so, so is that better, you know, to do it on the grassroots level, working with the tribe in the Amazon directly versus working through all the proper channels, you know, it gets filtered out.

3:11:50SpeakerAnd I think that's a challenge. And I'm just bringing that up because some of the people that are doing this, I feel are at You know, and they're going there. They're going like, look, I'm going to go to Nepal. I'm going to source seeds. I'm going to sell them in the US. I'm going to give share profit with the people in Nepal. I'm going to tell their story.

3:12:05SpeakerI'm going to, you know, but they're doing it all.

3:12:08Ryan Dank AfThey're totally violating the Plant Protection Act, right? It's like, which rules are we obeying? Okay, so we go by the ethical rules of what we decide is right for the original peoples and we totally ignore the cosmic brother law. Yeah, we totally ignore the rules of the government, you know, that puts these laws in place for like protection of the industry, you know, protection of the industry.

3:12:30Ryan Dank AfI was saying this like in 2017 in Canada, we were importing stuff Um, into the Canadian system and everything that we brought in had to go through phytosanitary. And then you get these cowboys that are bringing stuff up from the United States, um, because it's got, it's a clone of the hot name. And by the way, it also has like cyclamen, Russ and mites and, uh, hop late and viroid, right.

3:12:52Ryan Dank AfAnd all of a sudden hop late and viroids running like a hot fire going through everybody's grow room. Like, what do you think that costs? What do you think that costs the industry? It's still a cost in the industry.

3:13:05Etienne FontanIt's still a cost in the industry. It's unfathomable the number what has been lost due to that.

3:13:12Ryan Dank AfI'm not saying that all government regulations should be followed to a T, but they're put in for a reason. When we operate outside of those systems, there's consequences. So, yeah, you know, these are, these are really complex discussions with so many things to take into account. And it almost feels like we had these discussions turn into, oh, it's a big complicated thing. Let's just keep doing what we're doing.

3:13:40Ryan Dank AfRight. It's a, it's a, it's, there's too much friction there. Let's just keep going along with the status quo. And I think we also can recognize that it's also not the way to go. You know, we have to evolve. We have to be willing to evolve. We have to, you know, yeah, it's a complicated one.

3:13:57BubblemanI think this pivots very well into Brian's conversation today, which is this blight. And it kind of talks to the other side of breeding, right? When you're putting plants together, like maybe make a point on getting rid of some of these things that are susceptible. To viroids and diseases and back, you know, all of these things. So Brian, ever so patient, my friend, you are definitely patient three hours and 12 minutes, but you're up.

3:14:24Bryan Best Friend FarmsI'm thankful. There's so much information at hand. I'm taking notes over here and just listening, kind of trying to saturate. And, you know, it's really a lot and it all so much applies to like what we all do and definitely what I'm doing here on the field in Maine, inside and out. And, uh, Follows along well with the other episodes kind of chaining into this one here too.

3:14:46Bryan Best Friend FarmsA good rhythm. But I was even taking some notes of my own just kind of Mentioning for here in Maine, like with my breeding outside, I've been breeding outside for years now, kind of sticking it to that realm. So in Maine, in typical fashion, I've usually paid attention to like smell up front when I'm breeding for the terps showing early. So I'll go for what I call two week terps, but I've also followed it with like a taste to effect.

3:15:14Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd I'd look at the look thereafter even, and just more go for smell up front. Really good taste into the effect and then leaning into other, you know, areas too. But for outside, why I breed outside is because of the health and resistance factor. And I'm looking for overall health in the past years. This year, and then I'd say for, I guess about the past four years, we've had this septoria challenge is what I've heard it's called.

3:15:40Bryan Best Friend FarmsI know Colin has ideas or... Some information and I can kind of report from the field. So I'm seeing results as far as like types of That will make it types that definitely aren't. And I have a list going. I definitely have a library happening. I'm seeing about a 10% carry. So from like my clones in the library, a 10% hold on what makes it and continued resistance year to year as well.

3:16:11Bryan Best Friend FarmsBut I'm definitely seeing a lot of damage and I'm seeing some new types that are showing faces. I'm even, you know, for the defense, I've seen some stuff kick into defense later on. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:16:40Bryan Best Friend FarmsI think it's not being talked about yet enough and much. So it's kind of elephant in the room. And this stuff's a wipe out, quicker damage than I've seen anything. I've seen different forms of it. I'm talking to, you know, like not scientists, but soil pros here. And we're just discussing it. There's chats going on today locally even. And it's pulling off a good enough product at the end is definitely affecting yield.

3:17:07Bryan Best Friend FarmsThe hash is coming out still really good, even through some of the like strip it off, get it right down to bear. The flower seems to be kind of for some reason into the portion, you know, in the flowering, it seems to fade or not have as much of a hold. But it wants to kill the plant leaf off and live again. And I've definitely seen it this year go for like a drive down to the soil to a systemic carry, which seems to behave like a.

3:17:32Bryan Best Friend FarmsThank you for joining us.

3:17:54Bryan Best Friend FarmsWhat people think, in my opinion, it's kind of looking for perhaps like a fighter or an isolated strain or strains of fungal that are still beneficial or non-harming to the plant that would actually perhaps be able to inoculate into the compost, inoculate around, but Just to share it from the field reporting back, I'm definitely walking the woods and I see this stuff changing our landscape. It's taking trees down in the woods, certain type, you know, like quick-grown alder poplar, there's maples or oaks affected, and it's changing the landscape.

3:18:28Bryan Best Friend FarmsAnd I just haven't heard that much about this getting opened up yet, so would hope to open it up to some people here for knowledge or information sharing, you know.

3:18:37Collin PalmerSo yeah, so on the East Coast, I've noticed it on native plants all over the place. And I never saw that. You and I both grew up on the East Coast and we've been growing cannabis for close to 30 years out here now. And it's... Yeah, Septoria has been a big issue that is just devastated New York hemp farmers. And I think a lot of the people that I've spoken to at scale were hemp farming first and transitioned into drug cultivars and then planting in those same fields season after season.

3:19:13Collin PalmerAnd not taking the right precautions to amend their soils and create a healthy soil network for themselves. So it's been devastating on the East Coast, but it's the biggest reason why New York's market has so much terrible herb is because of the soil that these individuals are growing and most, not everyone, but a lot of them are contaminated. So they have these viroids and they're not testing or fielding for them.

3:19:41Collin PalmerAnd that's where I think the mid-term economics does come through and help you get better insight.

3:19:48Etienne FontanIs the plant uptaking the this by the soil and that's how it's becoming infected?

3:19:54Bryan Best Friend FarmsWell, I don't call me anymore, but I heard at first the theory being is that it's a splash back from the top surface. And when I had disturbed the topsoil just through simple hand cultivation of the soil, I did some I've been doing some trying some like more simple and organic application or even natural, you know, like disturbed topsoil seems to break up a fungal web. Thank you for joining us.

3:20:41Bryan Best Friend FarmsOil to a pH balanced citric application for spray that doesn't seem to touch a kelp doesn't seem to do much. So I don't know if this is answering any of your question, but it's back to this. Maybe Colin knows, but it's kind of like throwing all the natural form at it. It seems to be driven kind of deep systemically down into the soil at this point.

3:21:00Collin PalmerAnd also, you know, Pythium is a huge problem. And lettuce chlorosis viroid is starting to become prevalent, which is not, I think we can all agree, has not been a major threat. But yeah, I mean, we've used, you know, mycorrhizal top dressings to help combat it. We seem to think that You know, disrupting the soil to, like you said, to not allow those, that network to develop is, has really helped.

3:21:33Collin PalmerBut honestly, we just call the plants like immediately when we see it. And then we start soil testing, send that to New England testing labs. Look at what's going on.

3:21:43Etienne FontanWhat does it visually look like? So if somebody is watching, do you have a visual representation about what this looks like potentially?

3:21:51Bryan Best Friend FarmsI don't have one right offhand to show. I should have, I'll try to get some together.

3:21:56SpeakerIt's got brown spots.

3:21:58Bryan Best Friend FarmsYes. It looks like rust, right? Sam knows what it is.

3:22:01Etienne FontanIs it on the leaf or on the stem?

3:22:03SpeakerIt's on the leaves that I remember.

3:22:06Bryan Best Friend FarmsOn new or old leaves or old leaves not on new leaves? It was on older and it's actually hitting up high on the plant on new leaves. It's behaving differently through the years. It even has different form, which seems to me just again from the field seems like different species of that one type of fungus. I've kind of heard a little word about that from a soil friend and I've definitely seen like tight yellow spotting.

3:22:32Bryan Best Friend FarmsThank you. Thank you. Thank you.

3:22:59Bryan Best Friend FarmsThe problem is, is it's wiping out trees in nature. I've got 78 plus acres and I'm walking the back 40 down for miles back here, driving by where my parents live in the hills. I'm hearing from friends in Midwest to different states and not denying that it does carry the soil. But I, you know, one of the things I pride myself in is some of the most beautiful living soil.

3:23:20Bryan Best Friend FarmsMy compost is so rich that it's actually the newer compost is growing blight free, you know, squash plants that We'll see you next time.

3:23:48Bryan Best Friend FarmsSo it seems to be really, even if I could isolate here, change over soil, I've tried different strains in different parts of the farm, of the yard on about a 10, 12 acre clean out here in the middle. And I'm seeing it still pop different areas, but I'm also seeing the resistant type or two or a few that do the best. My gas mask.

3:24:12SpeakerI'm afraid I can't quite remember as well as I used to, but is trichoderma valuable to fight this?

3:24:22Bryan Best Friend FarmsThat's what I've heard. I haven't applied it yet. That's what I've used in the past. Wonderful to hear that. That's what's coming in the mail. There's three different strains that are being toyed with out of New York. And I'll connect with you on that call in a bit after too and talk about it. It's probably nearby with you. Yeah, man. It makes sense.

3:24:47Collin PalmerYeah, it's a big problem. We saw it even indoors, to be honest. And we had to do a lot of soul searching in the facility to figure out what was going on. And we, you know, for whatever reason, because the facility was near the coast, the water had this weird film, even when it was run through our, it was just the weirdest thing we've ever seen.

3:25:10Bryan Best Friend FarmsI haven't seen it inside here. It hasn't carried over for myself or friends in the area.

3:25:16Collin PalmerYeah, we nipped it in the bud. But, you know, there's also, you know, a little bit of, you know, good old Clorox bleach in the res to, you know, to kill anything at the right rates.

3:25:29Etienne FontanWhat does this do to the roots?

3:25:31Collin PalmerSo what is it? So the plant could be completely healthy. And then there's like a huge branch that's just like dead. You're like, oh, that's the weirdest thing. Why is that whole branch just dying? And then there's signifiers like splite and spots that can happen as well. But that's further. It seems like that's further. And then the leaves get crispy and kind of acrid and kind of like the plants are almost, you know, deep into fall, you know, finishing itself off with lots of ethylene around.

3:25:58SpeakerSay that again one more time.

3:26:03Bryan Best Friend FarmsIs that a leaf necrosis, would it be called? It does like a die off, like you just said.

3:26:09Collin PalmerIt feels like the plant wants to produce ethylene and it just like signifies it all to do it. And then it affects the other, if you have like other plants in the room, it starts to affect them because of the ethylene levels. And it's really fascinating seeing it happen. But, you know, we found again, it's just like you have to be really diligent about cleaning everything. You've got to be really tight on everything and just make sure you're double backing on all your SOPs and cleaning.

3:26:37Bryan Best Friend FarmsYeah, I could share a little info from the field on that note, which seems to help out actually is like we're using local hay mulch and a thick cover local hay mulch on the bottom that's kept with a fresh changeover. So like the four by four square on the raised bed gets where it actually almost acts like a catch for the for the leaf fall because what I've seen this this blight work like it seems to it's it's intelligence at least in its life cycle seems to want to do a leaf kill off on the plants just tracking it wise to let them go bad to see it it does a drop down of the leaves right to the base of the plant And from what I've seen or heard, those are asexual reproduction sites that look like rust spots on the leaf.

3:27:23Bryan Best Friend FarmsWhen it dies, those spots, Sam was talking about gray spots, and it fluffs off the spore. And it definitely seems like it wants to kill those leaves right off and behave where it wants to catch water, live right there and spread from there to go systemic. So like a fresh turnover of mulch under the plant. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:28:06Bryan Best Friend FarmsDon't new soil, new area or don't do this. So it's becoming like if less is more and that's what we can handle, it definitely seems like healthy fungal population, a good constant nutrient availability to it, whether organic or not, and not letting them Thank you so much for joining us.

3:28:44Bryan Best Friend FarmsThank you so much for joining us.

3:29:02Bryan Best Friend FarmsTaking a serious hold and this year being a good grow year, but a high humid one. You saw good growth, early start off for health in places with people that were bragging, you know, raving about it. And then they quiet fall off. And it's like detriment to the point of having a meeting over it, you know, and it's really if you don't have it, it seems like at least East, I don't know, probably East East Coast.

3:29:25Bryan Best Friend FarmsIt's going to come around. It's just one of those things cycling. It's eventually going to come. And at this point, it's a more how do we Resist this, in my opinion, and seeing like the 10% hold from new faces from breeding and from the library hold of genetics, at least where I'm here in small batch application, not field trials for thousands or millions, thousands of plants. I'm able to see that hold and then try it out different zones through the years and then protect my genetics.

3:29:54Bryan Best Friend FarmsWell, hold it as close as I can because it works well for here, but it's also kind of stripping away like the candy shop approach of terpene exploration or just into hashing it washes. It's becoming one of those where it's actually going to have more boxes to check when it comes to sun grown out here, whether it's personal grow We'll be right back.

3:30:32Bryan Best Friend FarmsTrying to find the plants, at least from the breeding from the field and simple understanding perspective, hold them well. And then I'm obviously like working into the year here with my breeding to be like resistant males that show, you know, the traits, even a kickback later for health, one up front, I'm tracking them. And then coming back to the proven females that either over the years, you know, or a new type that's showing its face to be the healthiest new girl and new lady in the yard is a strawberry smoothie band that I'm calling it.

3:31:08Bryan Best Friend FarmsSo strawberry headband on a citrus smoothie. And it just looks, I mean, it sticks out even among some of the plants, you know, and, and any who that's kind of like from the field. So somebody, Alex Hardy.

3:31:21BubblemanSorry, I just wanted to mention one thing, Etienne, that Wade had his hand up, but he has turned his camera off now. So, oh, okay, awesome, yeah. I don't know if he's there now, but when he comes back and turns his camera on, we'll give him the floor. There he is. Oh, wonderful.

3:31:38SpeakerYeah, I had to take a leak. What to do, huh? I gotta jump in here and rant for a minute. I'm loving this conversation, but I keep thinking about what Mojave brought up about flavor and how he was really pointing to what I think is kind of a central problem in the whole cannabis space where the various operators Try and provide product, ethical operators, try and provide product that the consumer wants because the consumer has been educated, if you will, to call out for this specific version of cannabis.

3:32:28SpeakerAnd as a patient, I got to keep coming back to that. As a patient, historically, we followed flavor and smell and morphology as a guide to the chemistry that we were seeking. And now we have analytical chemistry and that's a wonderful gift to our search. But I Part of what I wanted to rant about is we also talked about hemp and some of the consequences of, shall we say, unskillful legislation that has happened in the United States around the cannabis plant.

3:33:10SpeakerAnd on the one hand, hemp has had the effect of normalizing cannabis all across the country. People are used to it now, and that is a good thing. The other side of it, and to me, the biggest problem, again, as a patient and as a consumer, there's no protections for consumers. And I guess part of what I'm trying to do here is I'm asking you, all of you on this panel and anyone who's listening to this recording, to recognize that if you view yourself as an ethical operator, it's important to create product that

3:33:53SpeakerSatisfies the consumer while ideally preserving the beneficial effects of cannabis other than the drug high. And I, as a drug user myself, I love the high, but I've also become a fairly passionate user of cannabis for its medicinal benefits. And to me, the whole thing of legalization, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the medicinal benefit. And yes, flavor guided us for many years to that medicinal benefit that we were seeking.

3:34:34SpeakerBut I'm calling on, again, those of us who are ethical operators to preserve the genetics that you have, to call out the thing, because that's been the other big topic is these various pathogens that threaten this plant. And... We all know the global plant isn't really threatened. We're really talking about the commercial market.

3:35:01SpeakerAnyway, I'm going to stop there. I just I feel it really strongly that if you know what you're doing with this plant, do it with your heart and your consciousness at the forefront. And I'll stop there. Thank you.

3:35:20BubblemanAwesome. A man who says little, but when he says things, it sticks.

3:35:25Etienne FontanIt's beautiful. Alex Hardy in the chat was also suggesting kombucha and airflow for Septoria. He's an arborist who's in there, so that was his suggestion, so thank you for that, Mr. Hardy. Airflow, for sure.

3:35:40Bryan Best Friend FarmsIf that's a new one, kombucha makes sense, though, for trying it out.

3:35:48BubblemanYeah, I had a gentleman reach out to me recently from Estonia, and he had a couple of interesting things to share. The one is just another new method of isolating trichome heads. I'm sure we'll be speaking about it in the very near future. But the other one was he had this product. I won't say the name yet, but we'll let you know in the near future here.

3:36:11BubblemanBut he was talking about maybe coming and visiting Canada and the US and maybe getting some of this product to people who had HLVD. And I was just talking to him while we've had this conversation and he was like, oh, septoria, yeah, if it's bacteria and fungal problems, it's much easier to prevent and cure. And so I sent you that email, Brian, and maybe we'll make it so you can get some of that information.

3:36:39BubblemanThank you. Awesome. Well, we got 26 minutes left before we hit the four hour mark. What a great conversation today. I'm definitely down to freestyle for another 26 minutes. And, you know, if I haven't said it once already, I appreciate all of you for showing up. The heavy hitters came out today. It's been great conversation. Really nice. And yeah, it's just... It's good. People are appreciating it.

3:37:07Bubbleman300 people watching live right now. So we're getting those numbers up each week. This being our fifth week, people like consistency. Gives them sort of, I don't know, just makes you feel good. It's warm and fuzzy. It's like comfort food in the fall. Be consistent. Let's go ahead.

3:37:25Etienne FontanThank you. Got to thank you, Marcus, because thank you for restarting what you started a decade ago. And, you know, it's I love coming here. I love learning. I love hearing. I mean, opening up with Ethan, Ethan Russo and Sam. I mean, it just makes my heart sing and happiness for cannabis because there's just nothing like these discussions to have growers, farmers, producers, providers. From different countries, all talking all things cannabis in a very intelligent, logical, yet passioned way that, you know, is backed in a root of science, which I think is most important.

3:38:06Etienne FontanAnd I celebrate all of you and thank you kindly for just being a small part of this.

3:38:13BubblemanAbsolutely. And I think, you know, part of the important fact is, listen, we're just, we're spitballing always. We try to be as accurate as we can. Of course, we make mistakes and get things wrong. Sometimes as well, I think to be a thinking human being and share your perspective, you have to take the chance that you might make a mistake. And you might even offend someone along the way as well.

3:38:32BubblemanBut I like that we're doing it. I like that for the most part, you guys are quite conscious. Really, I felt like when Wade said what he said about, you know, leading with your heart. I feel that about most all of you, you know, almost, I would say all of you really, I know all of you personally, and you Lead with your heart. And I think that's, I think authenticity has an important place in all of this.

3:38:55BubblemanPeople appreciate authenticity. And that's what I feel a lot of when I get together with you guys on Sunday morning and chat. Go ahead, Sam.

3:39:02SpeakerUnfortunately, the industry as a whole, I don't think, I think there's a lot of black hearted individuals. You know, a lot of people, their focus is monetary return.

3:39:16BubblemanI've met them.

3:39:18SpeakerYou're not wrong.

3:39:21Etienne FontanThey're everywhere. But, you know, that's why, you know, being patients and providers has been important for all of us. Because we're able to share our experiences with others. And this gives us an area and a way to do so. You know, you're a provider. You provide, Bubble Man, you know, to Canadian providers. And we have various scientists on here who are actively doing in the science that has been, you know, definitely neglected for decades on end.

3:39:54Etienne FontanAnd we're at a unique precipice in time. Yeah, there's an industry and it's all full of sharks, but, you know, the sharks have always been there. They're just more prevalent. We can see them in the water now, but it's not going to stop the people who are doing it for the right reasons.

3:40:11SpeakerThe only way to get rid of the sharks is probably to take the money out of cannabis.

3:40:19BubblemanYeah, but the sharks are in the ocean and they're not taking over the ocean. The ocean is flourishing. Just got to figure out a way to flourish.

3:40:28SpeakerBut if the reason the sharks are interested in cannabis Thank you so much for joining us.

3:40:59SpeakerAnd to be honest, I'd rather see, for example, people like ex-judges, ex-police officers, ex-prison officers, I'd rather see them being greedy and working with cannabis than being what they were and locking cannabis people up.

3:41:26BubblemanYeah. Yeah. Amen to that, dude. That's the sermon of the day.

3:41:32Etienne FontanI kind of want to know what are Chimera and Skunk Man Sam smoking on and what is everybody else smoking on in chat? I haven't seen that in a while. What are y'all smoking on, Chimera?

3:41:44SpeakerWhat we're smoking on is white albino rosin. It's grown on alligator feces in the sewers of New York.

3:41:58Ryan Dank AfIt's actually a pretty nice little rosin. I actually went down to meet someone at a coffee shop today, so I had a joint of the Grinspoon, or what do they, what used to be called the Quaze, you know, the one I'm talking about, with all the calyxes and that real bud structure.

3:42:15Ryan Dank AfI'm not a big cannabis burner, so it was weird sitting there smoking this joint that kept going out, but I was reminded myself that I was in Holland.

3:42:27Ryan Dank AfSpeaking of, I had a thought earlier in the show when someone put up the medicine bottle, the old medicine bottle, I guess that was Michael, and it listed the ingredients and it was cannabis with all these other things in it, right? And it made me think when we started talking about these botanically derived terpenes that we have a little bit of cannabis and a lot of other stuff in it, and it seems we keep doing that, different versions of that same thing, and...

3:42:56Ryan Dank AfI can't help but wonder if a good regulation would be that the only thing allowed inside a cannabis product was something derived from the cannabis itself. When it comes to inhalables, obviously it's a different story when you're talking about inhalables.

3:43:14SpeakerSo what they'll do is they'll take cannabis products and with synthesis, convert them into different cannabis products, which I'm not so sure. I mean, as long as they're safe for consumers, but that's not proven safe.

3:43:30Ryan Dank AfWell, and you know, Mark Sheldon, like, I mean, he's developed some of these things that are synthesis products with using cannabis. And I don't think anything's wrong with that. But I think that if we're developing new things, that stuff should end up down the regulatory path of cannabis. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:44:07Ryan Dank AfAnd new forms.

3:44:08BubblemanSo does pure dry sift and bubble hash maybe not fit into that category, Ryan? I guess, really? I mean, that's the most, the highest percentage of volatile organic compounds we've ever inhaled have been in the last 25 to 30 years.

3:44:23Ryan Dank AfSo I was going to... And rosin, you know, well, again, the way I see it with a natural product is how are you going to stop people from doing it? How are you going to remove that right of them to use the plant as they will? Right. And I, and that's why I kind of, you know, like, like I was going down that road when we talked about it earlier, I'm right into like plants that are 15% THC.

3:44:47Ryan Dank AfBecause maybe when you make them into a hash, they have a different ratio of the terpenoids to, you know, say you take a high terp line, like say we're talking about that 6% terpene line that we developed, right? You've got essentially twice as much or more terpenoids In ratio to cannabinoids. And so when you concentrate that down naturally, you have a different ratio. Right. And so I think that there's like, when you talk about headspace, and you know, and how your head actually feels after consuming these products, like I really am a believer in not, you know, not everything has to be 30% plus THC in the flour.

3:45:28Ryan Dank AfRight. Like I get the novelty of it. But it doesn't mean that you have to make all products out of that stuff. Right. And I kind of feel like with the way that the regulations go and the distributors, like the distributors want high THC products because they know that in the past, those high THC products have sold. Right. And so they know that they can put their money into a whole bunch of stock on that and they're not going to lose money.

3:45:56Ryan Dank AfI think we also got to recognize, I mean, maybe this isn't the same in the States, but definitely in Canada, the flower market is kind of going away and more people are moving to pre-rolls, right? And so when you're in a pre-roll environment, those consumers aren't interacting with the flower in the same way that we do. Right. And so is that a generational thing? Maybe change? Maybe.

3:46:17SpeakerIt might take the dry hit off of it.

3:46:19Ryan Dank AfYeah, but it's not the same as rolling and smelling. Exactly.

3:46:25BubblemanTransforming it from a bud into a joint. That whole experience of getting it in your fingers more than you would. Yeah, it's wild. That's definitely a way of looking at it. And you're not wrong. I go to my daughter's, the dispensary that she works at is Happy Isle in Horseshoe Bay, not too far from my house. And I'll just go visit her sometimes and hang out for, you know, 10 or 15 minutes.

3:46:48BubblemanAnd every single person comes in and they're like, what do you got for like the cheapest Indica pre-roll? One gram, you know, 20%. Like it's very funny how they're ordering cannabis. And obviously this is what we fought for, right? You know, you just want it to make it available. And I suspect that as much as we want, and I think it's important what we're doing, stewarding these volatile organic compound profiles and all of the breeding work that guys like Ryan and Skunkman Sam and many other people have done.

3:47:20BubblemanThese are super important factors. We're preserving different aspects, but that'll never change the fact that 85% or more of the industry Gives like zero fucks about any of it. They're happy with floor sweepings with some distillate and botanical terps sprayed on it and they just love it. And I don't know if you could ever fight that.

3:47:41Ryan Dank AfWell, and, you know, Marcus, I mean, like, you know, you're such a purist and, you know, David and myself are also like that. I think a lot of people on the panel are, we're such purists that we want that absolutely finest part of the market, or not part of the market, part of the plant, and to deliver that to the market with pride and say like, hey, this is something that I love, you should check it out.

3:48:02Ryan Dank AfWe're, we are like an anomaly, right?

3:48:05BubblemanLike most people don't want that stuff.

3:48:07Ryan Dank AfYeah.

3:48:08BubblemanAnd even worse in Canada, the people who do want that stuff are, Like hate anything to do with government weed. Any of the people that have learned how to grow their own weed and make their own hash, they're like the one group of people that might support you and keep you from going bankrupt in that venture of trying to bring that to market are like specifically won't buy weed from the legal government stores.

3:48:32Collin PalmerLike, I don't know, I've noticed like the needs of the consumers because generations socially are different. I mean, they interact differently. They're on their phone. They're buying things quickly. They're, you know, they're looking to put their cart together before they even go to the dispensary and they pick the thing up rather than even shop. And I think it's it's a lot of that, you know, like to Marcus's point, like, That drives a lot of the choices some of these larger operators are making because that's all their feedback is and that's the narrative.

3:49:01Collin PalmerThey're okay with that narrative. They're like, yeah, whatever. If that's what sells, that's what we're selling. These guys are just doing business. They're just figuring out how to sell a product.

3:49:10Ryan Dank AfI know that some of us have been doing this so long Like, for example, I think back with Marcus and having these incredibly strong hashes, not that they were strong, but incredibly pure hashes, and seeing people react to those medicines through Hill's dispensary, right? And, you know, the government looks at us and we say, hey, we got this product that's like 50, 60, 70% THC. They don't understand that we have just refined the best parts of the plant and removed the, you know, we've washed away the green parts of the plant and kept the important medicine part of the plant.

3:49:44Ryan Dank AfRight. And when you give that to people in real need, they don't have to consume all this burning plant material. Right. And so you can do one lungful and get a real dose. And, you know, people like ATN and everybody else on this panel that's worked with people and that need cannabis, it's like the purer, the stronger the medicine. And more complete, right? Like, you know, I talk like I'm talking like you're a really nice hash rosin or super refined bubble.

3:50:11SpeakerThey can use a lot less of it and it's less harmful to them.

3:50:16Ryan Dank AfYeah. And so the government comes along and slaps an extra 20% tax on that and makes it less competitive in the marketplace, right? Like it's just the whole way that we've done this thing is completely backwards. And a lot of these lessons and these beautiful things that we found out about the plants I, you know, I, it's, it's just, you see the way that it's playing out.

3:50:34Ryan Dank AfLike Marcus said, 80% of the people are coming in looking for cheap, potent pre-rolls. It's bizarre.

3:50:40Collin PalmerYeah, we're also trying to mimic other industry, which is sad because we aren't those industries, you know, and I keep saying that to everyone. It's just like, just because there's a strawberry farinone product that could say strawberry cough and you could use 4% of that and it costs you 30 cents to grab and put in your vape and you can now call it strawberry cough doesn't mean you should.

3:51:00Collin PalmerYou know, and then on the flip side of that, because you struck a chord with me earlier on the vape side, like what I learned from a tox point of view, like there's tons of terps, like poligons are just blowing through, like poligons are really toxic, like, and that can show up in, you know, very toxic levels in certain cultivars. And we have to be very cognitive of that, to your point, you know, as we move forward, because there's more.

3:51:25SpeakerIs it a monoterpene or is it a sesquiterpene?

3:51:30Collin PalmerI believe it's a sesquiterpia.

3:51:32Dr Mark ScialdoneMonoterpenoid.

3:51:34Collin PalmerMonoterpenoid?

3:51:35Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, it's oxidized, right?

3:51:39SpeakerThen it'll go away quicker if you cure it.

3:51:43Etienne FontanSo concentrations we learned in the medical and medicinal end is definitely all about harm reduction. And believe it or not, one of the work that we've been doing at the UN, we just got harm reduction put into the UN after 24 years. It took 24 years just to get two words inserted into a goddamn treaty. So just so you know how long it takes some time to make change.

3:52:10Etienne FontanBut yes, it's key.

3:52:13SpeakerI just had another comment about the, again, I'm probably like a broken record on this, but we're talking about people going into stores and asking for the stronger product. Again, I think it just comes down to the information that's accessible. I think that just like Ryan, you're pointing out about the lower THC varieties that would be higher in terpenes or higher in other compounds. I think as we progress as an industry, ultimately people will understand that and go for it.

3:52:41SpeakerI think it's just, you know, we're, we're really, even though the industry has been around for a while now, like we still really are in the juvenile stages of it all, the juvenile understanding of it. It's just going to take proper education and more people understanding it to, to get to that length and get those kinds of products out there because yeah, like there's also as much as people might be demanding it, there's also a lot of people around me that are saying how strong it is.

3:53:06SpeakerAnd in terms of that being kind of like a, James Forrest, Jr.: undesirable thing for it just to have that high potency. But also, again, it comes down to a price conscious idea of what you're buying.

3:53:18Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, it's a proverbial race to the bottom folks. And when pre rolls become the number one thing, the cheapest way to make pre rolls is to take hemp at probably 100 or $200 a pound and spray it with THC that's been synthesized because you could synthesize THC 10 times cheaper than you can growing it. So, I mean, that's just the reality that we live in is that, you know, a lot of that stuff that's at the smoke shops and even in all the bodegas in Manhattan, you know, a lot of that stuff is just the cheapest shit you could possibly find because, you know, again, why, you know, I would just say that, you know, like if you have, If you have high quality flour and you're trying to get fair value for that high quality flour, certainly putting it into pre-rolls is not the way to go, right?

3:54:17Dr Mark ScialdoneBecause just, you know, the overall value chain and where the grower exists in that value chain is if you look at where the margins are, everyone is pressured at the front end of that value chain, including the grower and the processor and the people who really own The distribution networks and the folks who basically are able to populate dispensary shelves with product are able to take a little bit more margin because the guys at the other end, you know, again, go to OLC in Oregon has got a daily tracker on what usable marijuana goes for.

3:55:00Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd right now, I mean, that number always floats around somewhere around, It used to be around $1,100, $1,200. Then it starts sinking around COVID below $800. Now it's around $600 a pound. So, I mean, it is really difficult to turn on the lights at your grow for $600 a pound. So everyone along the way is trying to extract out as much value as they possibly can. And unfortunately, again, we're in that proverbial race to the bottom.

3:55:32Dr Mark ScialdoneWhere the people who can produce a quality product at the lowest cost is going to win. It's a commodity market, right?

3:55:42BubblemanThat's, that's, that's how we are with everything. We do food the same way. You know, there's 30,000 McDonald's, but there's a very few like actually incredible, amazing restaurants in comparison of any one brand, maybe even just a one or a two. And so it's done like that with beer and they have the IPA group. So we just have to recognize that we're in a smaller portion of the market, much smaller, but Even if it's, well, listen, I'm in a super small portion because I'm in like the 1%.

3:56:12BubblemanI'm a 1%-er. But, you know, like there's all these other different markets that you can fit into. I mean, I'm thinking that, you know, the company that does some of Ryan's cultivars here, and I always mess up their company name. It's our friend Kip's a part of it. What's the company name again, Ryan?

3:56:32Ryan Dank AfVictoria Cannabis Company.

3:56:34BubblemanVictoria Cannabis Company. They're doing exactly that, like taking dank buds and rolling them into pre-rolled joints. And so it's a smaller market, but it doesn't mean they won't do well with it. So when you hear us talking and we sound like, you know, we're upset and in a negative mindset about this, you know, all the people who are watching realize that we prefer the much, much, much smaller percentage of the market that when it's worldwide, It's actually still a pretty substantial market.

3:57:05BubblemanI mean, if a billion people were using cannabis and you were a part of the 1%, that is still substantial. That is still a lot. And I just kind of wanted to add that. We've got five minutes left.

3:57:21Dr Mark ScialdoneWalmart is like a big retail. In fact, I think they're the largest company on planet Earth today. I think maybe next to Jeff Bezos' company. Amazon. And yeah, if you think about it, Marcus, you're absolutely right. But like, I'm thinking about like those customers that walked in to your daughter's dispensary, you know, at some point, isn't it like, again, it's useful to think about, I guess, maybe like the micro brew beer model.

3:57:51Dr Mark ScialdoneSo like those of us who love petty hash, yeah, we're like the micro brews, but the majority of the market Drinks, Swill, Budweiser, Bud Light, Miller Lite. And so, yeah.

3:58:07Ryan Dank AfLet me throw something at you here, Mark. As you know, we're in Europe here staying with Sam. And, you know, I'm walking the streets around the neighborhood and I know that you guys have both been here. There's all these little cheese shops and there's all these little bakeries and these little butchers and fruit shops and vegetable shops that are selling high-end Really special cultivars and meat types and cheese types and vegetable types.

3:58:32Ryan Dank AfIt's a cultural thing, right? Like there is this cultural thing where, you know, North America and it's, I think it's probably population based, but there really is this thing where North America has a lot of industrial production and that kind of stuff just doesn't fly over here, right? I mean, sure, you have those products, right? But it's, there's much, it's much more normal to have really nice, nice food and, you know, that kind of thing.

3:59:03Ryan Dank AfAnd I think the cannabis will develop along those lines here.

3:59:06Dr Mark ScialdoneI just wonder if the pre-rolls... Connoisseur level.

3:59:09Ryan Dank AfYeah. But it's that the connoisseur level is more appreciated by the everyday person.

3:59:15Collin PalmerYeah, I think what Brian's saying is how I view New York is like I have a very particular lens on New York that's because I've lived there for so long and I see a culture there that's unlike anywhere in the world. It's much like Europe where, sure, there's a bunch of crap that's going to be sold and it's their bodegas and they're going to get their coffee and their pre-roll, but there is a world Thank you for joining us.

3:59:57Ryan Dank AfIt's challenging.

3:59:58Collin PalmerYou bring that up. So you're saying so you're saying right now there's like there's there's varietals that these shops are selling like along with their cheese.

4:00:07Ryan Dank AfNo, for example, if you go to like, you know, we went grocery shopping the other day and they have all these fruit varieties are more like they have these blackberries. They're, you know, the size of your thumb. Right. All these products that are the result of specialty breeding that would never make it into the industrial supply chain in North America. Right. Whereas where you live in an area where there's enough people that want a really high end cheese or a really like nice home bread or like super fine fruits.

4:00:37Dr Mark ScialdoneOh, shit. Give us pop tarts and fruit loops. That's what we want in the United States. And wine in a box. And wine in a box. Exactly. Wine in a box.

4:00:48Ryan Dank AfAnd diabetes to go.

4:00:50BubblemanGot the diabetes?

4:00:53Ryan Dank AfFor anybody watching, if you're developing those specialty cannabis businesses, you know, like Marcus, you got to just keep doing it. Eventually, they'll pay off and enough people will learn. And if not, you export it to somewhere they appreciate it.

4:01:07SpeakerI keep waiting for the world to grow up and only smoke dry sift, like all civilized beings like myself do. One day. Wonderful.

4:01:19BubblemanMan, listen, that's it, dude. 1259. We got one minute left. That's enough time for me to thank you all for coming and really stoked that you were at Sam's. Ryan, it's awesome to see you. I sort of stalked you on Twitter and had an idea that you were in the UK. Really sorry to hear about your mom, but glad you got to visit with David and Diana.

4:01:40BubblemanThat's pretty awesome. Thank you, Wade, for coming out and sharing. You know, always profound. You've always got the good perspective. We sure appreciate you here at Hash Church. And it was nice to have some new folks with Chris Gassa and Davis Allen. That was really, really sweet. I'm sure we'll get you back on here again one day soon, Davis. Dr. Ethan Russo, you're not here with us anymore, but you were at the start of the show and we appreciate that.

4:02:05BubblemanAlways nice to see you as well. I'm always amazed at how young Dr. Ethan Russo looks. Like when you actually figure out his age, you're like, dude, that guy's like doing something right over there for sure. Thank you, Dr. Marshall Doan and Colin and ATN and Best Friend Farms. Brian, totally appreciate you as well. And anyone else that I may be forgetting? All the people that have watched.

4:02:29BubblemanWe've had almost 300 people watching for four hours, which is incredible. I love the fact that, you know, that's the 1%. Again, it's kind of like it'll grow. We can get it out there. And once we hit the right... Um, sort of notes for people, more people will relate to, uh, what it is that we appreciate. So thank you everybody for coming on.

4:02:52Etienne FontanThanks to Michael Kraus for that history lesson. Those bottles.

4:02:55BubblemanDude, Michael, I'd love to have him back on as well. Love listening to him speak. And he's just got a sort of hypnotic voice and you can tell he comes from a place of passion as all of you guys do. So may the full milk bless your bowl sooner than later. And Johnny B's in Italy in the chat room right now. So shout out to you, Johnny B in Italy.

4:03:15BubblemanI hope you're inspiring people daily. Yes, yes. And I'm sure he's about to do push-ups. It's like 101, which means it's 1001 there. He's probably doing push-ups right as we speak. Peace out, everybody. We'll talk soon. Thanks, Marcus. Take care. Thanks, Marcus.

4:03:34Ryan Dank AfGianni.

4:03:38BubblemanThat was it.