The Solvent Episode

0:06MaxHello.

0:12BubblemanShit, it's gonna do it.

0:13SpeakerIt's gonna do exactly what it fucking did.

0:30BubblemanOh, maybe not. Maybe not. It's not going to do it. Look at that. I'm live. Okay. Wonderful. I thought I was having a little bit of technical difficulty there. Let me just start the recording. Okay. Welcome, everybody. Special episode here today. Wow. Hash Church, Season 11, Episode 3, the solvent episode. Very, very excited for this episode. I've got Dr. Mark Sheldon, who's really curated the room. And I've got a bunch of people who are waiting to get in already, but we're going to change things up a little bit here on Hash Church, and we're going to do some shout outs for our sponsors.

1:09BubblemanSo give me just one second to bring them up on the page here. And we'll get that done. Then I'll let everyone in. So first off and first foremost, I wanna give a big shout out to Kraft Greenery, which is one of Vancouver's premier cannabis dispensaries for sponsoring today's event. They're all about bringing the highest quality and widest variety of cannabis and extracts right to your doorstep all across Canada.

1:33BubblemanWhether you're a connoisseur or a curious newcomer, Kraft Greenery has something special for everyone, making your cannabis journey both unique And Unforgettable. So check them out for an unparalleled selection that's curated with love and expertise. Keep up the great work. You can reach them at craftgreenery.com. And shout out to Dennis and... Oh, I got a little alarm going off that I don't know where it is. Huh.

2:04BubblemanInteresting. It's very interesting. It's fine.

2:10Etienne FontanThere we go. One second, guys.

2:14BubblemanThat was my son's iPad. How about that for a middle of the row? So shout out to Craft Greenery and Dennis and Mark. I also would like to shout out Evolved Extraction Solutions. Really a massive shout out to Adam Temple for his pioneering work in solvent extraction of cannabis and for being a sponsor of today's event. They're dedicated to quality innovation in the cannabis industry. Extraction process brings unparalleled products to the community.

2:40BubblemanSo thanks to their commitment to constant investment and research at their Genome Technology Center, which we'll be talking a little bit about today. Evolved Extraction is setting new standards in the industry. Just keep pushing the boundaries. Evolved Extraction Solutions and Adam Temple. You can see them at Evolved Extraction on Instagram and evolvedextraction.com for their website. Alrighty. Okay. We'd also like to give a shout out. To the media bros, specializing in advanced CRC filtration solutions designed to elevate the cannabis extraction process.

3:14BubblemanThey're based in Portland, Oregon, and serving extractors across the US and Canada. The run-ready filtration media delivers unmatched purity, potency, and efficiency, effectively removing impurities while retaining what the cannabinoids and aromatic volatiles that matter most. With faster flow rates, no clogging, consistent results, Media Bros empowers extractors to produce safer, cleaner, and more effective products with ease. Backed by hands-on expertise and a commitment to innovations, Media Bros simplifies the process and helps customers achieve excellence every step of the way.

3:45BubblemanYou can check them out at mediabros.store. And if you're in Canada, you can actually contact Adam at evolvedextraction.com. All righty. So, and last but certainly not least, I'd like to shout out Jorge and the... Good folks at Chemtech. This is a company that's revolutionizing cannabis extraction with cutting-edge technology and a commitment to quality and sustainability. Chemtech is a leader in post-processing equipment for solvent-based cannabis extractions, offering advanced solutions like the CLT55 terpene separation centrifuge designed to enhance the purity and quality of cannabis concentrates.

4:21BubblemanYou can visit those guys at gochemtech.com to learn more about their innovative equipment And dedication to empowering extractors across the industry. With Chemtech support, we're going to continue to explore and celebrate the art of science of cannabis, the science of cannabis extraction, fostering education, innovation, and community connection, which is what we do here at Hash Church. So let's elevate the craft together. Thank you to our four sponsors.

4:49BubblemanAnd I think we got so many people in the room right now. It's time to get the show started. Boom. There's Ryan Hubble, Max Eisler, Eric Ward, Adam Temple, Hemp Guy, Wax Plug, Murphy Murray. And wow. Welcome, everyone. And thank you for taking the time to showing up on Hash Church. You know, I get that Hash Church, especially because it's so connected to me, has always been very much, I think a lot of people just assume it's really like a solventless show and that we're all about solventless this and solventless that.

5:23BubblemanYes, I've been guilty over the years for being a biased person. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to have a little bit of a break towards solventless extraction. But I love that you guys have been pushing the boundaries and really expanding what can and can't be done with the use of solvent extractions. And I want to thank my co-host, Dr. Mark Sheldon, who's not actually here yet.

5:43BubblemanI'm sure he's coming, Mark. For curating this show and for bringing you all together. Mark's been a part of Hash Church almost since day one. We love his knowledge of chemistry. We love the depth of conversation that Mark brings to the table on the constant regular. He's an absolutely brilliant chemist. And the fact that he likes to trip balls and watch the Grateful Dead and fish. Well, that's just kind of a little bonus that that I have in common with with the good old Mark Sheldon.

6:15BubblemanSo I think he just popped into the room. Are you there, Mark?

6:20SpeakerYes, can you hear me?

6:22BubblemanThere he is, man. Future So Bright has got to wear shades.

6:25SpeakerYeah, sorry, we're a little late. No, don't be sorry. We're trying to figure it out. Yeah, we're trying to get it projected here on the big screen. But hey, everybody, how's everyone doing today? Good. Hey, Adam, nice to meet you. Max and Telly, good to see you. Murphy, let's see who else we got in the room. Eric, it's been a minute. Holy shit, man. How you doing, man?

6:50SpeakerI'm good. Glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

6:53BubblemanYeah.

6:54SpeakerYeah, well, thanks for coming.

6:55BubblemanWe got Skunk Man Sam in the room as well. I did invite, of course, Skunk Man Sam, and I also invited Wade Laughter. These are two of our elders in the community. They may not be connected exactly to the level of solvent extraction that a lot of you guys are, but I thought, you know what? I still wanted them in the room. Sam always just has the most incredible perspective and he's certainly, you know, probably going to tell us a bunch of stuff about solvent extraction that I didn't even know that he was involved in because I've never mentioned anything that Sam wasn't involved in since the actual beginning.

7:31BubblemanSo welcome to you, Mr. Skunk Man, Sam. Howdy, howdy. Howdy, howdy. You know what? That is definitely... When I hear howdy howdy, I think Skunk Man Sam. All right, we're going to let a few more folks into the room. I see Jorge is there from the Wax Plug from Chem Tech. Welcome, Jorge. Hope you're doing well. Welcome, Adam. Welcome, Max and Eric and Ryan and Murphy. And the gentleman that just came in, M Liga, that's Marshall?

8:01BubblemanYes, sir. All right. Welcome, Marshall. Okay, that's right. You know, I've never had a show where so many people Thank you so much for joining us.

8:32BubblemanWith some of your guys' work, I obviously know Murphy Murray and I know Adam Temple and some of you others, I don't know. So what do you think, Mark, while you guys are getting yourself organized over there, do you think we should maybe go through a short little introduction of everyone that's on the panel?

8:49SpeakerYeah, absolutely. Can you guys hear me? I can't tell if I'm muted. We can hear you perfect. Yeah. And see you. You can see us too, right on. Okay. So we do a quick intro and we can introduce everyone that's here first. So I'm Mark Sheldon. Okay, can you guys see me? I don't even know.

9:10BubblemanWe can see you. We can see you. We can hear you, man. I can almost taste and feel you. Like, trust me, you're here.

9:16SpeakerOkay, so to my right here, we have Traynor. We all remember Traynor from our song on this episode. Traynor's one of the best hash makers here in the state of Vermont. And we've got the one and only Kind Bill.

9:30BubblemanAh, the kindest of Bills. The kindest of Bills.

9:34SpeakerYeah, maybe we'll see if we can cut the lights a little bit. But why don't we start? So immediately to my right, I have Eric Ward. Eric, you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, I'm Eric Ward. I guess I would be known for starting the liquid THCA separation from back in the day. I used to call it the Heisenberg, so I kind of called myself the Heisenberg there for a second.

9:59SpeakerAnd then we started calling it Holy Water. We were doing the Heisenberg thing on Fish Tour and kind of just selling carts, like coil carts before there were actually carts. Thank you for joining us.

10:35SpeakerThat's kind of where I started. I'm up in Washington now at a company called Sun Grown. We do brands called Full Spec and we do rosin and solvent with stuff called Solar Rare. And we have a lot of different lines. Leafworks would be another brand. It's kind of where I'm at these days. And let's do some consulting and lab stuff. A lot of R&D. So I'm working with a lot of new stuff, working with the Resonator guys and doing key fronts of BHO.

11:03BubblemanShout out TJ.

11:05SpeakerYeah, shout out to TJ. And so I'm kind of proving the methods of that and have done quite an extensive R&D thing with that. Now I'm doing, we have a machine that does solventless turps. So we're actually able to get turps with no steam distillation or no anything like that. And we just... Are able to do solventless terms. And so I'm doing R and D with that right now, which has been pretty interesting.

11:28BubblemanDude, I love, I love that. Listen, I always thought the solventless term was hilarious and shout out to Nick at T for coming up with it because it was so necessary and whatnot, but solventless terms. I know that's funny. It's gotta be the most awesome. Like that is.

11:42SpeakerIt's not using a solvent to extract.

11:43BubblemanSolventless hydrocarbons, man. We've got the solventless hydrocarbons, but awesome dude.

11:48SpeakerYeah. It's a method thing where it's like, we're not using solvents to extract the term.

11:52BubblemanWell, I know exactly what you mean, dude. I know exactly what you mean.

11:55SpeakerAnd I'm just using water, which is a solvent. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, man.

11:59BubblemanListen, I went into that argument a few times in my career there for sure. So Adam Temple, next up, would you like to introduce yourself? Good, good friend. I met Adam. Actually, we did a couple of panels together over the years at different events. And he's local to me as well. So give us give it up there, Adam.

12:19SpeakerThanks, Bobelman. Yeah, so also from the Vancouver area, founded Evolved Extraction Solutions back in 2016. We're now kind of the largest extraction and equipment and supplies distributor in Canada. More recently, though, we launched the first THCA crystallization commercial system called the Genome. Been doing A controlled crystallization course actually at our Genome Technology Center. So to Murphy Murray, who actually instructs that course, super awesome way to learn about how to isolate THC at different kind of scales.

13:05SpeakerSo yeah, that's kind of sums it up.

13:08BubblemanWe'll get into that later for sure. Maybe head over to Murphy Murray, as you just mentioned her. Welcome, Murphy.

13:15MurphyHey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I think it's very fitting to come back to be on Hash Church the day that TikTok gets turned off. What a fun day for us all. Taking it back old school. But I've been... Exactly, exactly. A solventless folks have never been able to post on there. Our drugs look exactly like drugs, so... We've been affected the whole time, but I've been in this industry so long that I stopped like dropping the years because it was starting to make me sound old.

13:51MurphyI started out uh doing solvent lists with nicotine you know with mila's little uh you know washer and um quickly i basically have just been trying to do whatever is new as soon as it's new the whole time i've been going and fortunately for me it hasn't gotten boring yet so i keep doing it um i've worked on the equipment side the most you know um So I've worked with a lot of different equipment manufacturers.

14:19MurphyAnd even as a consultant and an educator, my focus has always really been on like, how do we make this job easier for ourselves, even with solventless? I started with a washer. And I know that people out there love their wooden spoons, but I also just love spending my time consuming these products. And I think that's why so many of us were available today, because, you know, solvent based extractions way faster.

14:45MurphySo we have more free time. We can hang out and consume with each other. So I've been doing education, building equipment, and, you know, my consulting is more of lab advisory roles, a little bit of consulting for cool clients for, you know, from time to time now. But, you know, I love learning and that's why I teach because it opens up the greatest opportunities.

15:08BubblemanAwesome. Well, we're happy to have you here for sure. And I got to tell you, Dr. Mark, you guys, although it's not exact, You guys kind of had a little bit of a Horatio energy going on when you had the backlight lit and quite a few people in chat even put up the RIP to Horatio. So I felt like we got a little visit from our good friend Horatio Delbert, who of course passed away a few years ago and was an absolute pioneer in In both solvent and solventless extraction.

15:36BubblemanGo ahead.

15:38SpeakerIf it wasn't for Horatio, we wouldn't know each other, Marcus, right? I think I owe him a whole debt of gratitude for bringing me on to Hash Church. He wanted me to set Tony straight.

15:51BubblemanYeah, exactly. Exactly. I'd love to hear from Ryan Hubble, who's also in the rooms rocking it out. How you doing, Ryan?

15:58SpeakerHey, guys. Thanks for having me, Mark and Mark and Mark. My name is Ryan Hubbell. I've been making hash at a professional level since 2012. Moved out to California. I helped start a couple of brands out there, Elephant Extracts and Sweet Sweetleaf Extractors. And then in end of 2013, beginning of 2014, I ended up at Incredibles, the edible and extracts company. And me, along with my colleague, Max, we helped develop their solvent extraction systems, their butane system, and led the lab.

16:44SpeakerAnd then in the last couple of years, I've been a free agent and just been doing a little bit of consulting here and there.

16:52BubblemanSo back in 2012, you were like three years old when you started? I'm just joking. I'm an old mother. I was like, damn, this guy's looking good. He's like young. He's 2012. Damn, that's like some pioneer years right there. Good to have you, Ryan. Thanks for coming on.

17:09BubblemanI've been told that a few times, but when I gray out the beard and people are like, ah, you don't look that young, actually. Marshall, we'd love to hear from you.

17:19SpeakerYeah, hey, thanks for having me on. I'm the director of R&D at VUCA Farms. I work in a hemp farm and hemp processing facility. We have CO2 and ethanol extraction. As much as I'm not deep into the industry like you folks are, I've never even been to an MJ BizCon at this point, but I did go to Humboldt State for undergraduates. So kind of seen a lot of the industry over the years, you know, in different areas and from different sides, I guess.

17:50SpeakerBut I also worked in hops prior to coming on here at VUCA Farms. So pretty much everybody I work with has worked in hops and hop extracts. Product development, stuff like that. So we're all kind of new to hemp and cannabis in that way. And honestly, I don't know much about hydrocarbon extraction. I have a PhD. And so my, a lot of what I learned is from literature and there's not a lot of data out there on butane and propane and things like that.

18:17SpeakerSo I'm just excited to be here with you guys and learn from you guys today, honestly.

18:22BubblemanWell, you're dialed in, my friend. You've got the people here who are on the cutting edge of this. You came to me via Nick Ziegler. Nick Ziegler is one of the most intelligent friends I have. I absolutely love and adore Nick when he comes on Hash Church and shares. His knowledge is so deep and vast. And when he hit me up and said, you've got to have my friend Marshall on.

18:42BubblemanHe's brilliant. I was like, Jesus Christ. If Nick's telling me this guy's brilliant, then I'm looking forward to having him on the show. So you came with the highest of regards from Nick, and we're happy to have you on here. And hopefully you can share some knowledge and you can learn some knowledge as well.

18:59SpeakerSo yeah, I've been using CO2 extraction for almost 10 years now. I've built my own. I'm building more equipment right now, some proprietary equipment for CO2 extraction. So

19:13BubblemanAwesome. Well, I do. I do know Nick. Nick mentioned you as well for the Aromatic Volatile show that we've been trying to do. Obviously, Nick was also involved in that at Yakima Chief Hops when you I don't know if you worked at Yakima with him or not, but.

19:26SpeakerNo, no. According to them, I came from the dark side. So I'm actually the company that worked at Hops, which is the other larger competitor. So my boss is the former CEO of Yakima Chief currently. So you hired me on and I'm working with a bunch of folks from Yakima Chief. But I did meet Nick through the hop industry and then through this job at VUCA.

19:49BubblemanJust to give the panel a little bit of background, if you don't know Nick, he was the sort of one of the main extractors for Yakima Chief. I can't even remember the numbers. It was absolutely astonishing. It's like 4,000 kilos an hour or something that he was processing through this giant machine that they had created. But the thing that really piqued my interest was that he had some colleagues that designed some analytical equipment where they could perceive to the trillionth instead of the billionth like the proton NMR.

20:17BubblemanSo we want to get these guys on. Marshall, you'll be invited to that show. Anyone who feels they have a specialty in aromatic compounds, you'll be invited to that show. We're going to get Jeremy Plum on there. We're going to get Nick Ziegler. We'll have Marshall come on. And what we're really waiting for Is his two colleagues who put that equipment together because Nick is not willing to speak on their work instead of having them speak on their work.

20:42BubblemanSo I'll look forward to that show kind of in the near future. And then we'll head on over to Jar. Yari. Yari. How you doing, Yari? Good. How are you? Thanks for having me on. Dude, I kind of thought it was cool.

20:56SpeakerJar, you know, whatever works.

21:00BubblemanA Yari of hash and you as well, my friend. So please give us a little introduction. Let us know where you're at and what you're doing.

21:06SpeakerYeah, so I've been growing for close to like 17 years now. I got I got I've been doing it in Colorado since kind of like the first legalization. We all had like the med cards and all that. And then once the extraction hit the scene, I was just interested in it. And the first system that I heard about was the ETS machine. So I actually went down and met Murphy at the ETS place, but I couldn't get any clean runs because of those care savers.

21:35SpeakerIt was leeching oil into every one of my runs that I did. And Murphy helped me as much as she possibly could. And it just we just couldn't make it happen. So she was the one who actually suggested that I go over and meet the guys at Incredibles, which is where I met Max and Telly and AK. And then I met Dr. Mark. So that's kind of like the background of how I got going in the scene.

22:01SpeakerAnd I used their system for years. It was great, but then I needed to upgrade a little bit. So I started kind of piecing together and building my own system. So that's that's where I'm at with my background and attraction.

22:14BubblemanBeautiful. Well, I appreciate you sharing with us. We've got well, let's go over to Max.

22:23BubblemanThere he is. Welcome, Max.

22:27MaxYou guys, can you hear me OK?

22:29BubblemanYes, I made the mistake of speaking right while you spoke and I cut you out, but I won't do that again, I promise.

22:35MaxNo worries at all. Well, thanks again. It's cool to see some old faces, cool to see some new faces. What up, Dr. Mark? Thanks for putting this on. So I guess quick little origin story is I've been in legal cannabis since about like 2008, give or take. So going on two decades now at this point, kind of crazy. And it started out just wanting good weed. You know, I was never much of a hustler.

23:00MaxI just wanted to like secure the chronic for myself. I remember when I was younger and I bought a bag from my dealer and he had better weed in his sack than what he sold me. And that was the day I realized I was like, oh, I like need control over my supply. So it started like that. And then it started just making some hash for fun in my backyard with some trim, you know, open blasting.

23:25MaxAt one point, Derek Cummings and I got linked up. Many people know him in the industry. Not everyone does, but. What's that? I just said D money. So, you know, we started making ice hash with just the Home Depot washing machine that had a metal drum. You know, we tried to do what we could with what we had at the time, at least no plastic in there.

23:50MaxAnd so it just started with big, you know, big, large ice hash runs where we had a pulley system on bolt bags, pulling bags. So that was a lot of fun. And then just, you know, I've got a scientifically inclined mind and wanted to play with solvents and wanted to make the elusive shatter at the time, something that was holdable and not sticky. And, you know, things come full circle and we realize that shatter is not, it used to be if it doesn't shatter, it doesn't matter.

24:17MaxHold it from the bottom, all these little things that we used to have. But so then that continued to evolve and became, you know, solvent extraction became a real industry. And so we were already kind of playing around in our backyard, honing in something, unbeknownst that there was going to be high demand for it. So at Medically Correct Incredibles, Derek and I linked up, Telly, Ryan Hubbell came on board at some point and Don't forget Dickie.

24:49MaxOh yeah, and Dickie. We got Dickie who's not in the scene, but he was a behind the scenes dude who was a crucial component in machine fabrication. We ended up designing our own extraction machine. What Ryan did not advertise for ourselves is that we're inventors on record for a patent on that piece of equipment. And we never really came out to, to, you know, do anything related to metal.

25:13MaxWe were just hash makers and we saw the end goal we wanted. And we saw that none of the equipment that was available at the time was able to, you know, deliver what we were looking for. We knew some basic things like, you know, solvent exposure time and temperature and all these components that we wanted more control over and no one had access. And we would give people feedback who were designing machines and I don't know if it was ego or if it was too much work for them to change it, but we were given boots on the ground feedback as users on how they could improve their tech.

25:45MaxAnd then it just became easier to design our own. So I don't know if it was in 2017. I don't know when we got our patent. Telly, do you know actually the year we got that? You're muted right now, by the way.

26:00SpeakerUm, I think it was awarded in 2019, but all the, all the work was done in 2014. Yeah.

26:10MaxSo that was something we were working on for a while. Um, and then those of us who are in Colorado know that the industry I'm sure everywhere has been kind of tumultuous. And so, you know, the race to the bottom has happened. And at one point I was overseeing three cultivation facilities, as well as the laboratory that Ryan was managing. And we had about, I don't know, maybe 20,000 square feet of grow space.

26:35MaxSo it was, you know, it was, you know, more than a small thing, but they get bigger. In between then and now we ended up relinquishing our cultivation licenses because everything was just saturated. And, you know, there's internal drama we had with the fire department, one reason or another, we just had some friction. So my role has changed a lot and we're not doing a ton of extraction anymore.

26:59MaxI'm still at Medically Correct doing R&D and recipe formulation, working out some nanotech and stuff like that. But for the most part, that's kind of the elevator pitch of about 20 years ago to now. One thing I was just thinking about while we were sitting here is, Murphy, I can't remember if it was you or not, but when I first came on, had left Pink House, which was a real fun gig.

27:25MaxWe all were doing a good thing there. But that wasn't being operated very professionally. So things kind of disintegrated there. When I first came over to Medically Correct, we were using kind of a hybridized OB dose, maybe partial ETS thing. And I needed to swing by and get a care saver replaced. And I think it was you. And there was a bunch of little aloe vera plants that were at the office.

27:52MaxAnd I had been given one. And, uh, Ended up turning that one aloe vera plant into like this psychotic obsession of propagation and turn it into thousands, if not multi-thousands of plants, all under just some little grow lights in our machine shop warehouse to the point where it got excessive. And I'm like, I can't transplant these things anymore. We had to start giving them away. But that same cutting of aloe vera is still rocking probably a decade later and has made Thousands and thousands of aloes that have gone out.

28:25MurphyI love that. I'm looking at five propagations of it up on my windowsill and the big one down here in front of me. Like, you need aloe vera in Colorado. It's dry out here.

28:36MaxI attribute that aloe army that I built to you and the first one that I got when I was picking up a refurb care saver.

28:44MurphyYeah, well, that's perfect. Let's keep the aloe going and stop using, you know, oiled compressors. You know, it's just a really good position for us all to be in finally.

28:53BubblemanAbsolutely.

28:55MaxThat's me.

28:57BubblemanHey, thanks, Max. Appreciate the breakdown. And that's a, I couldn't tell if it was a real fish tank or if it was like some digital screen that you have, but that's a real fish tank.

29:06MaxOh yeah. That's a 75.

29:07BubblemanHell yeah, dude.

29:09MaxYeah.

29:09BubblemanI'm telling you, anyone that loves weed and like getting stoned and staring at a fish tank, it's got to still be one of my favorite things to do like 25 years later.

29:21MaxYeah. A hundred percent.

29:22BubblemanOh my God.

29:23MaxIf you like growing weed, there's so many parallels because you got to make sure the water levels are right. And, you know, look at everyone, make sure they're healthy. They're talking.

29:32BubblemanListen, listen, at one point in time, years ago, it was going to be close to 30 years ago. I remember I went over to Breeder Steve's place and he had started this, what he was calling Guppy Ponics. And he had these Egyptian mouth breeder fish and he was, there was this whole cycle of like the fish pooped and then the worms ate their poop and then they pooped and that poop fed the plants.

29:51BubblemanAnd this herb was so fucking like, I can't even explain it. It was like herb that felt like it was flushed like a thousand X from any herb that I'd ever seen before. It was just, just more Breeders Steve stuff. And then he got a kick out of, uh, You know, feeding the fish his like his hamburger to bug out the vegetarian and the vegans. You'd be like, oh, I'm just feeding them a little bit of hamburger.

30:15BubblemanSo yeah, hamburger fed sweet skunk guppy ponics for the win. Shout out to Breeder Steve, you fucking maniac. Hey, go ahead.

30:25MaxI said I would love that. That sounds bank.

30:28BubblemanYeah, yeah, it's definitely something. It's definitely something. I want to shout out Jorge, who's in the room. He hasn't turned on his camera yet. I don't know if we're getting Jorge's camera. Oh, there he is. What's up, homie?

30:38SpeakerWhat up, man? How's it going?

30:40BubblemanIt's going good, man. It's going good. You want to give a little introduction to the crew? I'm sure many know you and some may not.

30:46SpeakerSo my name is Jorge. If you can't roll the R, it's all good. You can say George. I'm better known as Wax Plug in the industry. So I started back in like 2016, open blasting, like straight up just glass tube in the backyard, like everyone else, I'm sure, and started doing my research there in the background until I developed or found a way to bleach the oil, which became what's known now as CRC.

31:15SpeakerSo my introduction into like the main industry was around 2018 when I introduced or shared some of the techniques I was doing. From there, I was able to gain more opportunities, eventually opened up Chemtech, which is a company which distributes equipment and like centrifuges, stainless steel components, just about everything, really consumables. But from there, I was able to then really focus on research and trying out stuff.

31:49SpeakerSo I was able to really connect with a lot of labs and eventually ended up Uh, forming, uh, Wax Plug Academy, which is now an educational platform where we help others learn through there. And also, uh, through a university in Argentina right now in Buenos Aires. So we have two platforms right now going, and like I said, having all these tools at your disposal has really just helped, uh, push everything forward.

32:14SpeakerAnd I travel the world a lot currently, like I have been to a lot of countries and helped, uh, push the techniques over there forward, get the knowledge going. And just prevent some of the pitfalls that we saw in the beginning. What else? I mean, yeah, that's about it. I've been mainly just focusing on crystallization lately and developing equipment, I would say. Those are like the main focuses right now I've seen in the industry.

32:42BubblemanNice. Well, I met Jorge, and yes, I can roll my R's because je suis Francais, so I absolutely know how to roll my R. I just didn't, I was like, I didn't want to sound like I was, you know, trying to speak Spanish or whatnot, but I'll call you Jorge from now on, my friend. And yeah, we met in Berlin. Uh, geez, it had to be a year or two ago now through Alex Rogers, ICBC, the International Cannabis Business Conference.

33:06BubblemanAnd Jorge was just, he was just rocking diamonds. This guy was walking around with big old diamonds and just giving diamonds away to everyone. And it really created a A neat, I saw it create a really neat, like, like excitement, similar to the excitement I've seen when I roll around and give out people full melt hash. And your diamonds were impressive. You gave me a couple and they were they were they were eight to 10 carat diamonds for sure.

33:36BubblemanLike they were not the little baby one carats, that's for sure. And I also dug your little, uh, Thank you so much for joining us.

34:09BubblemanSo I am going to bring, I said earlier in the chat, I would, you know, lost a lot of friends in the last year. We lost a lot of good people. I'm not even going to try and shout them all out because it was just so many and I hate the idea of forgetting one. But there is one that I want to bring back from the grave.

34:33BubblemanTo show up on our show today because this guy has been, he's been a pioneer in this solvent extraction for a very long time. And I just sent him the link. We'll see if he's going to make it in. I'm kind of excited actually to bring this guy back. Yeah, here he is. Without further ado, I'm bringing someone back to life today. We're bringing Indra back. Indra was not dead, as many have been saying, including myself, for the last like six months to a year.

35:11BubblemanHe wrote me the other day and he said, stop telling people I'm dead. And I said, holy fuck. Holy shit, dude, is this really you? I was all shaken. I was freaking out. I was like, I was like, what the, what's going on? How could I've never in my life been a part of a rumor of a good friend of mine being dead that wasn't dead. But here we go.

35:30BubblemanJohn Davis, Indra, in the flesh, old as fuck, but we're happy to have you here, dude. So happy to have you here. How have you been, dude?

35:42SpeakerWell,

35:45Speakerage 79 start slowing your ass way down you know for sure and then uh i got diabetes and blood pressure but guess what i'm still alive and i have no plans for dying

36:04BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

36:26BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

36:52BubblemanThank you for joining us.

37:10BubblemanYou know, he'd hit me up and he'd be like, look, you got to warn people about these mercaptines that are in the oil. They're not good. They concentrate. You got to you got to warn people that they can't be doing open blasting and that plugs spark inside the plug. You can't be like out on your deck, like with your bikini top, like blasting BHO. And so he was really although he was the guy that released this process, he was also very conscious.

37:34BubblemanAnd like I could tell, That it was hurting his soul a little bit. That something that he had released that he really just meant for it to be such a good thing had been taken in a way, sort of spread in a way that was a little bit disconcerting. And so I got to give props to all of you on the panel because really what you guys are, are the people who are pioneering this.

37:56BubblemanSolvent extraction far away from, you know, I mean, we can laugh about it now. Jorge just said, oh, I was open blasting like we all were. It's like, God, thank you that you're all here, that you're all safe, that none of you have burn marks on your body for the rest of your lives. There's the right way and the wrong way to do things. And obviously that particular process, it really, I say it all the time and I don't mean it as a pun, but it is a pun.

38:19BubblemanIt's spread like wildfire. I mean, when he released that method, It was within a month of me releasing Bubble Bags, and I really remember kind of being like, Really? Like, really, dude? Like, because BHO was more popular. They're just there's no like, I can't deny that it was more popular. Now, I'd love to get into this conversation with you guys, because I know a lot of you are like Max in the sense of just trying to get the best heady stash in your in your bag.

38:49BubblemanYou just want the best. A lot of us were just have always been looking for the best. So. It's nice to see, I don't want to lose my train of thought, but it's nice to see people taking things out of this sort of sketchy situation and bringing it into a much more, hey, maybe having a little bit of chemistry, understanding, having a class one, div one room, you know, all of these different things that many of you guys have sort of pioneered in this industry have been amazing.

39:17BubblemanVery, very important to bring to the forefront so that these products can become made available. I was terrified back in the day, and I know you guys laugh about it, but you guys must have been a little like terrified too when it was happening, when people were just like, yeah, Eric, give me a story.

39:35SpeakerYou have burn marks all over me because this did happen to me in the beginning of 2013 in January 2013 because I was...

39:46SpeakerUh, Gray Wolf was putting up his Turpinator up on the internet, you know, first one of the first closed loops. And, uh, so I made my own version of that because it was all open blasting before that. So, uh, my whole goal was to make, cause I, I'm very, um, you know, engineering inclined. I'm not, Thank you for joining us.

40:21SpeakerAnd then I did like some custom stuff to it. And I was doing like I had like a dip tube in it and I was doing like different batches into like Teflon bags. And then I would just have like a gelled ice cube thing that I would warm up and put in the bottom and I would evaporate it out like that. And I was still keeping liquid in it so I could use dry ice blocks to separate it later because that's how I was doing holy water.

40:45SpeakerAnd after about a year and a half, there was just a static, a static problem that definitely ignited and ignited me in the process. But this was in the very beginning. This was before people came out with closed loop machines. You know, this was very, very beginning. And so, you know, that was my lesson on that was you do need a C1D1. You know, I was gone.

41:06SpeakerI was giving liquid to Addison for a long time at Steep Hill because that's how I met a lot of people in the beginning was doing testing because nobody had any information on any of this stuff. So I was having to do my own testing at that time. And so I was giving stuff to him and nobody had seen liquid or anything like that. Now that's what I prefer to smoke.

41:25SpeakerI just like terpenes. You know, that's my main thing is really the flavor. It's always been that. And and so I've been giving it to him and then I just disappeared for nine months because I was in the hospital for a month. You know, I had three surgeries, skin graft stuff like really gnarly, almost died type stuff, you know, and then I lived with my parents for about eight months.

41:47SpeakerThey had to take care of me. And then after that, the whole thing, like literally like the word dab came out in 2013, like the industry started getting big right around there. And people would be coming to Steep Hill and Addison would be like, oh, that's good. You know, my friend does this thing, makes this liquid and started telling people about me. And so by the time I was healed and feeling better, a lot of people everywhere knew who I was or at least knew the name, you know, Holy Water.

42:15SpeakerAnd people were like looking for me. They're like, does he exist? There are some articles written about it is just some really interesting coming from just being in bed for eight or nine months thinking I'm never going to be in this industry. It's not even really an industry yet. I didn't even think it was going to be possible. But I came back and I tried to teach people and it just wasn't up to what I was trying to do.

42:35SpeakerSo I started doing it again myself. You know, my parents, I was like, they're going to kill me, you know, but I believe that this was the thing that I, this is the thing that I like to do the most. So I always had other jobs and things like that until this started just coming out and started literally, you know, blowing up in the right way instead of the wrong way.

42:54SpeakerAnd then that's when I went out to, you know, I was with that company Nectars in the beginning and went out to that, you know, high times thing in 2014 in Colorado. And that's when we officially kind of unveiled the whole idea of liquid and the separation thing. And that was the very beginning of all that. But yeah, I live with those scars every day and it is something to think about and it's something that, you know, as I've worked in labs since and done consultations and things like that, safety is a priority and it's one of those things that I'm so glad to see because you don't ever want it to happen to anyone else and I train a lot of people.

43:32SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

43:50SpeakerThat I had hurt myself and, you know, actually gotten in trouble for in California in the very beginning, you know, so I was like the second person that they had busted for PHO back then. So for me to do this now, you know, is crazy. Did they slap you with a manufacturing charge? They did. I have one, yep. That was in 2008. So that was the end of 2008.

44:14BubblemanIt's bad when they give you its own name, eh? Let's call it manufacturing.

44:21SpeakerAnything that you're making is manufacturing. So all the people back then, since there was no manufacturing for hash people really, they thought I was making meth. And so that charge is just for anything that is bad. And so to be able to go through all of that and go through all the house arrest slash all the bullshit I had to go through. And then to burn myself after that.

44:48SpeakerOne of those things where I'm like, oh my God. So it's like to trip up a few times like that because it's in the very beginning. You're doing things and building things that no one's ever done. Thank you so much for joining us.

45:16BubblemanIt's that's what we mean when we say standing on the shoulders of giants. We are learning from their mistakes as much as we are learning from their breakthroughs and their epiphanies. Yeah, that's heavy, dude. For sure. That's heavy. I want to get into that a little bit more in a bit. But I think as we're going through history at this episode, it would be cool to hear from John just out of his own words, kind of like.

45:41BubblemanHow he discovered this process and how he released this process on EROID. Once he gets done that, I do want to talk a little bit more from, you know, from Adam and Murphy, Eric, Tele, just in regards to the education that you guys are doing now, Jorge as well, in regards to what you guys do in order to make sure That we're inspiring people to do this the right way now.

46:09BubblemanBecause sometimes, like for instance, I can take complete and total accountability for showing everyone how to make water hash the wrong way. When I first came out, I would take the bubble. I'd roll it up all wet. Everyone's hash was molding. It was totally my fault. I was responsible for that for years. And it's like, here I am trying to pioneer and be a pioneer and do some new things.

46:30BubblemanAnd then you make this key mistake that you wear sort of as this, you know, for you, Eric, as a burn mark for me, just as this sort of conscious, like, oh my God, like all I wanted people to do was have better hash. And I'm probably responsible for like a metric ton of it molding. Like that weighed heavy on my shoulders, maybe not as heavy as a burn, but trust me, man, it weighed heavy on my shoulders knowing that, I was the reason that people's hash was molding.

46:55BubblemanSo that took a very long time to kind of break that down and be, you know, 2002 to 2007 or eight. I was absolutely obsessed with teaching people about, um, The desiccant, you know, for me, I found pizza boxes. It was a food grade cardboard. It was hard. If I if I if I see the hash very, very thin over the cardboard, it wouldn't stick to the fibers.

47:21BubblemanIt would come off beautifully. And the desiccant action of the cardboard would absorb the water, which was also being Thank you for joining us.

47:41BubblemanHe started coming out. Well, he's in Colorado. He's not in the Pacific Northwest. And he's saying, I don't know what this bubble man guy's talking about, but you don't need to put it on fucking cardboard. Like that's brutal. Just put it on some parchment, much cleaner, no fibers, this, that, and the other thing. And Nick and T and I really taught each other something because we were kind of banging heads.

47:57BubblemanI was like, what the fuck is this guy talking about? Thank you for watching.

48:20BubblemanIt's not working. You are getting moisture trapped in your hash and it's going to cause you problems down the line. So Indra, if you wouldn't mind giving us a historical context of how you came to this. Like, what the fuck, dude? You're just like sitting around one day. You're just like, what? What the fuck? Please.

48:39SpeakerNo, I was in Vietnam in 1967. And, uh,

48:46SpeakerTrying to get the locals to bring us some pot to smoke was nearly impossible. They would bring it, but it would be these big, wet, heavy buds. And you couldn't light them with a fucking blowtorch. It just wasn't happening. But you could tell that it was good because it looked good. So I started thinking about it, and I thought, Well, maybe I should try a small, I had read about gaseous extraction back in 1898.

49:19SpeakerAnd I thought, well, maybe this will work. So I took a big pen, I shoved the barrel out of it, crammed it with wet buds, turned it upside down, took a Ronson butane lighter refill thing and hammered it. And there on the dish, In front of me and a few other guys sitting was a red puddle bubbling. And everybody's like, what's that, Dave? And I'm like, that might be the reason or the answer to us getting high.

49:54SpeakerSo not a good thing to do, but everybody put it on cigarettes. And everybody smoked it, including myself. And everybody got hammered. And they're wondering, What it was, I said, well, it's oil from the plant. That was in 67. Then I came back to the States, 68.

50:24SpeakerAnd I was shot all the pieces. I got shot to the middle while I was there. And I came back and I was thinking about it for the longest time. And then around 1988 or 89, I ran into this guy. I went to Switzerland. And while I was in Switzerland, I met a guy named Hans who offered me space to work in his shop. Even though it was totally illegal, he saw Something else.

51:06SpeakerAnd he saw flowers and spices and stuff like that. So he wanted me to be there. And we did start that. We worked for Roberta, one of the biggest perfume companies on the planet. And we worked for them for a number of years, producing fine perfume, oils, spices, and other things like that. And then I started to Talk to Hans about, hey, maybe we should try some large extractions.

51:43SpeakerI had a 38 foot tall, four inch or four foot wide pipe. And we loaded that. He introduced me to some Swiss guys who had been growing pot for a long time. And they had a huge warehouse that was I don't know, it was 600 feet long, 200 feet wide. It was filled with boxes of dried pot that mice had come in and pissed on. And so these guys were like, can you do anything about that?

52:20SpeakerAnd I was like, well, yeah, I can take the oil out and it won't smell like mouse piss anymore. So we moved everything over there and started to work. And we were You know, filling this thing up every other day. And we had gallons and gallons and gallons of this beautiful red oil that was just immaculate. It tasted so good, you could hardly not want to have it every day as much as possible.

52:53SpeakerAnd at that point in time, these guys

53:03SpeakerI wanted to go back to the States, and so I wanted them to pay me. And they did pay me something, but they didn't pay me for all the work we did. Well, while that was all going on, I noticed that After we extracted, there was a lot of trichromes available. And so we wanted to try to find out how to get the trichromes the most efficient way out of the bud.

53:35SpeakerAnd so what I discovered was that if you freeze the pot using liquid nitrogen down to extreme low levels, You crunch it all up in a 55-gallon drum, use a 4x4 to smash it while it's cold, and it turns it into a powder. Basically, that leaves you about two inches or three inches of crushed material at the bottom of the barrel. So then I pulled the material out, and we constructed a silkscreen with 26 inches, 26-per-inch threads.

54:17SpeakerAnd we took the pot that we had crunched up in this and put it in that and shook it. Then only the trichromes came out. All the green stayed behind. And the reason it did is because the green took up some moisture and it wouldn't fit through the silkscreen. But the trichromes all fit through it like there was no tomorrow. So we made these giant piles of golden...

54:47SpeakerI still have a video of Johnny shaking it out and scraping it up on a black sheet that we used at the time. And so here we had these trichromes and we had the oil. So then I thought, what will happen if we mix the oil and the trichromes together to make extremely good hash? And I thought about it and, uh, All I did was I poured liquid nitrogen into a stainless steel bowl, one of those big mixing bowls, you know.

55:28SpeakerAnd then I poured the oil in. And then the oil started shattering immediately because of the temperature differentiation. It shattered and shattered. And then I stuck a baseball bat in it, made sure it was all finely powdered. You could, it looked like, uh, I don't know. It looked like maybe milk or something. It was milky lucky. So after I got that in, then I poured in the trichromes in a ratio of 55 at 60 to 40.

56:03SpeakerAnd after that was poured in, I stirred it quite a bit and then just stuck the bowl outside on the porch and liquid nitrogen drained off. And that was that. And you could just reach in and grab a handful of this really soft hash that was, you could roll it into a temple ball in just a few seconds. It would dry with skin on the outside of it.

56:25SpeakerAnd every, where we were in California, we couldn't make it fast enough. It was just, everybody wanted it no matter what. That was in the day when there was dispensaries, but they weren't really legal. But we would go to them. And take one suitcase full of oil in little one gram bottles. We called it golden oil because it was golden looking. It didn't look red until you heated it.

56:54SpeakerThen it turned back red. And we took in a little suitcase full of temple balls. We never left any behind at any head shop. They all bought them all. If we took in two kilos of oil and two kilos of hash balls, they were sold. That was it. They paid us cash money and we were out the door. And so that was my way of making good hash.

57:21SpeakerI tried to make it as safe as possible. Liquid nitrogen, non-toxic, you know, the whole nine yards.

57:30BubblemanAnd then so that just led you about 10 years later. I would suggest, first of all, for those of you that don't know who Roberto is, like this is this is not just a perfume company. This is a company that's been around since 1850. They are like the world's leaders in natural raw materials when it comes to fragrance and flavors and extraction and like any scientist that works at Roberto.

57:55BubblemanAnyone on this panel would die to speak to this person for any amount of time. They really are serious, serious players. So, you know, that's a big part of John's history. I would also add that, you know, when you hear kind of the older guys talk, oh, it was the best this and that back in the day, you have to imagine like, imagine BHO like 20 or 30 years before anyone had BHO.

58:20BubblemanImagine what an anomaly it would be to have someone put that in your bowl. I can tell you before I met John, I met a guy in Amsterdam and I wish I could remember this guy's name. He was a little guy, glasses. He was an older guy and he was from Seattle and he was a real character. And I met him in a coffee shop in Amsterdam and he said he had this crazy hash oil that, you know, no one has and it's stronger than anything in a coffee shop.

58:49BubblemanAnd this would have been like 97 or 98. And I was kind of like, oh, whatever, you know, I smoke pretty good, man. Like, oh, you know, okay, I'll try your hash. And he gave me a rip of this hash. Now, keep in mind, this is really before anyone had tried BHO. Thank you for joining us.

59:20BubblemanAnd this is, it's so hard for me to even say this. I couldn't fucking finish it. I actually went to Mila's pollinator shop on my way out of the country and I gave it to her. And I swear to God, it was still like a half a gram. So anyway, I find out that the guy got the hash from my buddy, The Nose. And The Nose knows.

59:40BubblemanAnd The Nose is Steve Dumont from Amsterdam. Anyone that's ever been to Amsterdam and spent any amount of time at the Cannabis Cup or... Thank you for watching.

1:00:12BubblemanBronson Tube. And I was just like, that's how you made that shit? I was like, what the actual fuck? So I actually got my gram off Steve. It was the last gram that he had. I don't know how much you made there, John. I think he said he had like 10 or 20 grams of it. It was just a couple of You know, like maybe 10 penfuls or something.

1:00:31BubblemanBut it was one of the strongest products I had ever smoked in my life. And that was this small world, right? You know, a year or two later, I would start doing bubble bags. Indra would release the BHO method. And eventually we would, you know, kind of link up together. My team actually went out to his facility in Kansas and saw his, like, All of that stuff.

1:00:58BubblemanSo, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

1:01:23BubblemanThank you so much for joining us.

1:01:39BubblemanI would be like, how much did you lose over like the course of like some years? And he's like, oh, maybe like a cup full. So he's like reusing. Anyway, cool story, Indra. I appreciate the old schoolness 1967 in Vietnam. How fucking crazy is it that Skunk Man Sam discovered static tech in Africa and Indra discovered the BHO method in Vietnam? I'm just putting that together right now.

1:02:08BubblemanWhoa, what country was, did you discover that in again, Sam? It was Gambia. Gambia, of course it was, of course it was.

1:02:19SpeakerWest Africa. Don, I have a question for you. Please. The material that you were using, that you had boxes and boxes and mouses on it in Switzerland, was it Swiss Rofidope or was it,

1:02:37SpeakerI don't know because the Swiss guys took care of that. I took care of the production and I didn't speak Swiss German or Swiss French or Swiss anything. So I was just a listener at those things. I saw a lot of people producing a lot of cannabis in Switzerland when I was visiting there. But most of them were using varieties that were half THC high varieties mixed with Swiss rope dope.

1:03:17SpeakerAnd yeah, it's not the best, but it's still got the THC in there, but it probably had a lot of CBD, I suspect. Actually, the plant that we used for all this was a plant that these Swiss guys had gotten from the Swiss Institute of Technology of Plants. And it was called Queen of Happiness. And you could take an eight-inch bud And shake off about three to five grams of trichromes.

1:03:52SpeakerIt was something that the Swiss Institute invented. And then these guys were going there, so they took full advantage of it. So that was the plant du jour.

1:04:05BubblemanWhat year was this, John, in Switzerland? Was this in the late 80s or the late 90s?

1:04:11SpeakerIt was in the late 80s when I went there. Okay. I started producing stuff, and I stayed there as long as I could, but even finally the Swiss people said, hey, no more visas for you. Get the fuck out.

1:04:28BubblemanYeah, yeah. No, I did it about 10 years later. Saw much of what Sam saw as well. Definitely saw fields of decent weed as well. Steve was growing really good weed. Shanti Baba was growing really good weed down in Bellinzona. Greenhouses of spectacular... You know, proper cultivars, proper, you know, proper grown. Actually, some of the nicest flowers I'd ever seen grown in Switzerland. It was a greenhouse that Shanti Baba, Scott Blakey had, and it was, it was seven foot tall calio plants, and it was like walking into an orange orchard.

1:05:05SpeakerIt was California orange from, from, originally from me.

1:05:09BubblemanIt was so good, Sam. Holy shit. It was mind bending walking into this room. And I remember asking him, I was like, whoa, dude, like, how did you do this? Like, everyone else was kind of having these problems. And there was, and this is not anything against sort of the people in our industry or growers in generally. And it might be something to do with prohibition. But I asked him his secret.

1:05:32BubblemanAnd he said, I don't hire smokers. And I was like, what? He's like, well, really, I don't hire growers. And I'm like, what? He's like, all my growers in that greenhouse are rose growers. I don't hire weed growers because they already know how to do everything better than me. And I don't want them doing that on my dollar. So I just hire rose growers. I tell them instead of bricks, you have to be worried about resin that you can get in your eyes and that it burns.

1:05:59BubblemanAnd other than that, they just listened to everything he said and executed exactly what he said. And it was like a perfect cannabis grow operation. And this was like back in 2001 that I saw this. If I was better organized and I had my old hard drives plugged in, I'd bring up the pictures.

1:06:18SpeakerI hate to say this, Marcus, but same thing with me. I would prefer to have growers That did not know how to grow pot already and just did what I told them. And it would come out better than all my friends who have been growing for 20 years.

1:06:39MurphySounds like you guys just prefer using an SOP. Somebody just likes standard operating procedures. It's almost like you wanted employees in some kind of, you know, work for pay scenario. It's really... You know, it's like so much has changed, but things stay the same. But I want to say back to the mouse piss box, because I felt that in my heart. I think one thing about working with solvents in the cannabis industry that is unfair is that the better you get at this craft, the worse weed people want to bring you to ask you to save them from.

1:07:23MurphyIt's like, You know, we get a lot of innovation out of cultivation failures. Someone else has ruined product for six months. And now, after it's been in storage for another six months, I've got to figure out how to make it work. And so what's tricky about that is that we don't really get to brag about Some of the coolest parts of what we do because gross right like like Jorge has brought brought up his CRC right like it it was so cool to be able to pull that pigment out even when we didn't know you know what the function of having it there was it was just cool and interesting to be able to do and talk about but then we get this like negative connotation and no we now we don't get to discuss our science with the same excitement because a lot of times we learn from some Garbage boxes of mouse piss weed.

1:08:19MurphyAnd we find out we could do some really cool shit.

1:08:22BubblemanNo, I'm glad you brought that up, Murphy. It's a really good conversation in the sense of, you know, I've had the conversation with media bros. I had had the conversation with a few different people. I've had the conversation with the irradiation folks, the people that do, you know, when you're failing microbials. And it's, you know, as a as a business owner. There's sort of two views of sites, and we'll get to you right after this, Mark.

1:08:49BubblemanIt's that...

1:08:53BubblemanOkay, you've got your sort of Instagram, I hate to call them fuckboys, but this sort of Instagram bro science of like, oh yeah, like you can't be doing that, you can't be doing this, and that's bullshit, and that's, they're just doing this to, you know, polish a turd, and this, that, and the other thing. From a business perspective, like running a big facility, investing a ton of money, like having employees, having responsibilities, and being accountable to a large group of people, You know, you make 25, and I ask this question to many people in regards to the irradiation.

1:09:26BubblemanLike, I'm not looking to irradiate myself. I'd love to not have to irradiate a single product. If I make 25 kilos of bubble hash for a customer, and this happened recently, and it was wild because they wanted to use their own lab for testing, and the lab came back that it had failed. So it needed to go to irradiation, which is what they wanted it to do.

1:09:48BubblemanI did a huge lab investigation because I just was like, that's impossible. I swab everything. I've done the math. I've done the numbers. I am paying attention to my variables in my lab. And it took me three months. And after three months, I realized... Sorry, John. I'll just mute you real quick. I realized that they had made a mistake in the lab and that it had not failed.

1:10:10BubblemanNow... That was three and a half months of a problematic experience. Now, would you tell if you're a brand new company, you've invested all your money, you've mortgaged your house, you've got your buddies working for you. This is a roots thing. You're not the suits as people like to, you know, you're the roots. You're doing this the best that you can. And you have a fail like that.

1:10:30BubblemanBut you're going to be righteous for your Instagram audience. And you're going to tell them, don't worry, I threw that 25 kilos away.

1:10:37BubblemanFuck is throwing away 25 kilos of hash just to serve a group of people on Instagram who are never going to buy that hash whether you irradiated it or not. So it's this double edged sword and you have it with CRC as well. Of course, it's great if you make a nice product, but maybe it has a little bit of a slight look to it because consumers are so bloody picky and they're only going to buy something based on the color.

1:11:04BubblemanAnd now what? Oh, we see our seeded. So it kind of becomes, are you the company that maybe a fail happened at a lab that wasn't even a real fail and you were required to irradiate for this particular reason? Or are you the company, and this is the part that you're talking about, Murphy, why you kind of can't talk about it, why you look bad, because there's brutal fucking companies out there that are doing nothing but growing moldy schwag.

1:11:29BubblemanThey're happy to do it because they know they can irradiate it at the end of the process. So it actually affects the SOPs in the beginning and during because they know where they're going is just like it doesn't matter we're going to CRC and we're going to irradiate and we're going to get great product. That's not really what those two things were designed to do. They were designed to help people in certain situations but they become a double-edged sword.

1:11:52BubblemanYou get people who move in with low integrity and then they go about doing their business in that way and so Thank you for watching.

1:12:13MurphyRemoving the flavor that was there might have been important. The flavor that was there might have been gross. There's fantastic flour that we can extract and get fantastic flavor from. And sometimes when you get a box of mouse piss weed, we say, in exchange for no mouse piss, we're going to have no other flavor either. And so for us to be blamed for the cut when we're a Band-Aid, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:13:03MurphyAnd where we should have had a lot more conversation and a lot more, you know, nuance between each other because we all want the best of whatever's there. The only one who would say throw away 25 kilos of concentrate is someone who doesn't have it to throw away, who didn't pay for it to be made. So, you know, I believe in recovery. You know, I believe in, you know, reclaiming what you can, but safely.

1:13:27MurphyAnd it's it's a really it's a tricky conversation because when someone makes green bubble hash and everybody has done it like one time, it'll happen and then you learn. But they don't have to live with that every day. And they don't try to sell that because they can't hide it. And, you know, so this is a conversation that we all have together, I think, within the solvent-based community.

1:13:53MurphyBut it doesn't really escape us. And it's unfair, I think, to the consumers as well.

1:13:58SpeakerSo CRC has its place for sure. But unfortunately, over the years, it's definitely ruined BHO.

1:14:05MurphyBecause for sure, because we've been running mouse piss weed. You know, we allowed growers to give us garbage weed because we could fix it. You know, that standard was not held.

1:14:16SpeakerYeah, and like I said, when I first made the Rosenship diamonds years and years ago, CRC was a big part of it, and W1 was the best thing to do that with. So like I said, it definitely has its place, but as far as people doing BHO with quality material, the CRC has trickled over to everyone just thinks everything CRC'd So like honed in on what color it is and people care more about the color than the actual quality of having good hash.

1:14:48SpeakerYeah, you're not wrong. That's where we're at, you know.

1:14:52BubblemanI would like to add on that because I saw it from day one when I released the bubble bags and started doing the bubble hash, right? Listen, I got lucky. Guys like me and Nickity and Matt Rise, We had an olfactory sense and a lucky ability to be friends with guys like Subcool and people who were growing spectacular, like second to none cannabis. That was our advantage.

1:15:14BubblemanAnd so in the very early days, I, you know, Breeder Steve's like, hey, you want some shish keberry, buddy? And I'm making, you know, five star hash with just two or three bags like, whoa, this is crazy. So I had access to all this incredible hash. It was a very short period of time after I started selling bags that I started getting these questions. Hey, how do I get my hash to melt like yours?

1:15:35BubblemanI'd be like, ooh, they are not going to like the answer to this question. Well, you just need You're just going to need to learn about the symbiotic relationship between the mycorrhizosphere and the roots and the fungi intelligence that will help express plants and sequester compounds from your plants. You're just going to need to learn about that. It's going to be about a 10 to 20 year journey that's going to take you through absolute insanity and crop loss and failure and epiphanies and all of these things.

1:16:00BubblemanOr, or... Thank you so much for joining us.

1:16:28BubblemanBut it just it was those melty photos that everyone wanted to be a part of. It was that melty, shiny hash that everyone wanted. And so they'd say, how do I get my hash to melt like yours? And, you know, the next day they'd be like, fuck it, I can I can blast this and it will be a golden honey oil. And so it was the beginning of a way to make something that wasn't very good look good.

1:16:52BubblemanYes, go ahead, please.

1:16:54SpeakerIf you'll recall, when you started Bubble Bags, I called you and said, hey, I don't want to crush your bubble bag business.

1:17:03BubblemanYou did. You absolutely did. You did.

1:17:06SpeakerAnd I wanted to reaffirm that. And then one other thing about Roberto is Dr. Julian was the head scientist there. And when I wanted to get business with them, I asked him, give me something to extract. So he gave me some four year old lavender, all dusty in a box. And I extracted it and I sent it back to him. Next thing I know, three days later, I got this frantic phone call from this French guy who can hardly speak English.

1:17:43SpeakerAnd he's like, how did you do that? What is happening? This is better than the fresh lavender. We want to talk with you. So I went in to Reverte and I sit down and I became friends with Dr. Daniel Julian, who was the head scientist. He then was so enamored of the process that he got on a jet and flew to Kansas and walked into the place to sit down and see the whole setup.

1:18:14SpeakerAnd he was like, he kept shaking his head. He was sitting there shaking his head. And I said, Dr. Julian, are you okay? And he said, yes. He goes, but I want you to know that, uh, You're about 200 years ahead of the extraction industry. And I am so happy to be here and see all this. And can I see you operate it once? And I said, sure, you can.

1:18:38SpeakerAnd we did. And we became close friends. And we still are. We still talk.

1:18:46BubblemanThat's awesome. That's amazing.

1:18:48SpeakerI have a question for you. Was that company bigger than Javelin Rouge? You couldn't tell me. Don't ask me about comparisons, bro. I don't know. Julianne was, they were around the entire world. They sourced stuff in every country that there was. So does Jovenon Rouge, but I don't know either.

1:19:12BubblemanI can find that out for you. I want to continue the thought because I wanted to finish and not be blaming BHO. I feel the exact same thing happened with Rosin when Rosin was released. And it's kind of this double-edged sword that we're talking about with CRC and with irradiation. It's like, where can I find a place for my mediocre product? And so that was a big thing when BHO happened.

1:19:38BubblemanObviously not everyone has amazing product. The majority of people who were blasting had mediocre product. It was turning into a golden honey oil and it looked spectacular, but it wasn't until some of you people on this panel started showing people what actual bomb product was and adding all these little tricks and tips into your SOPs to really preserve and get all of that goodness in the end result.

1:20:01BubblemanIt just was a place for mediocre product to go and it was the same thing with rosin. To this day, I kind of say about rosin all the time and don't get me wrong, I love rosin. I have beautiful rosin here right now. I've got some honey bananas. It's spectacular. It smells so loud and so beautiful, but... I do feel, I find that when I ask someone if I can see the hash that they made the rosin from, they never have it.

1:20:26BubblemanThey never want to show it. They don't want to flex it. They don't show it on Instagram. So I say the majority of rosin is where mediocre hash goes to die. That's what I say.

1:20:35MurphyThat's a lot of white rosin with no flavor out there. Tons! Tons! And the thing is you get exactly what you ask for. The problem is that if we have a lot of tools available to us... We can deliver on more of those asks. So if you ask me for a white product, a clear product, a blue product, whatever you want, like I could make a thing.

1:20:59MurphyAnd so you have to know what you want and ask the right question. And that is a pretty significant ask of a consumer, especially You know in in a market where we went from not being able to talk about it to then not being able to see it smell it touch it or interact with it when we buy it. So it used to be you know that you'd at least be able to smell that jar before you picked up a gram of that rosin and now you do have to purchase it visually so They're going to ask for a visual cue.

1:21:33MurphyThat's a terrible situation. If I had to buy my avocados visually, my ability to deliver on good guac would be diminished. You know, like sometimes we just have to identify the real problem. If you had to smell the product before you bought it, you'd make a different choice. But when we have to purchase it visually, A dark orange BHO extract isn't going to look as good as a bright white one, but I happen to know that I have had some absolutely delightful dark orange BHO, you know, like, and just talking about all of his red oil, like, you know, the visual cues didn't matter when we had others, you know, a lot of people complain about the THC argument, but give me any other number.

1:22:18BubblemanYeah.

1:22:19MurphyYou know?

1:22:20BubblemanNo, I'm going to get to Mark because he's raised his hands twice. But yeah, someone just mentioned in the chat, oh, I agree, dude, but CRC is criminal. And another guy's like, it feels sneaky. But it connects exactly to what you just said. People are purchasing based on their eyes. We haven't created that system. We would love people to be able to Test it, touch it, smell it, feel it, experience it, but we can't.

1:22:44BubblemanIt has to be purchased a certain way. Now, obviously, you know, I'm not a BHO guy, but I just see that when you're, and it's very similar for rosin as well. And this is why people are like, let's cut the plant down a little early. Let's make sure we lyophilize and keep it in cold chain and make sure we pull like taffy to get those air bubbles in there to lighten that bubble.

1:23:07BubblemanThese are forms of CRC. These are forms of manipulation and sneakiness that we are, you know, we're not forced to do, but I say we're kind of business people are somewhat forced to do if they want to compete in the market. And it's funny because it's always the buyers, the people who are the buyers who are saying, oh, I don't like this and that's sneaky. And well, then then start buying differently.

1:23:29BubblemanYou know, pay attention differently. Mark, please go ahead.

1:23:33SpeakerAll right, well, first I wanted to say hello to my old friend, John Davis. Hi, Mark. It's great to hear your voice again. For some reason, you have a Ken Nordean twitch to your voice that's just irreplaceable. So it's great to hear you again. Second, I want to introduce my friend, Kind Bill here, who's kind of one of the OGs in the room, who knows a little bit about extraction.

1:24:02SpeakerAnd I think he's got something to say. Hey guys, how's it going? So first of all, so stoked to see so many here who I haven't seen in so long. Nothing but Eric, then forever, forever, maybe the first legal cannabis cup in Denver. But obviously been around with everyone. John, thank you. And, you know, to some of the points first,

1:24:36SpeakerWhen I first came into fully regulated market making hash, hash was the only way I could get in, right? I couldn't get a badge. My dear friend, fellow cultivator, you know, Phil Hague was like, hey, hey, hey, Billy, we can hire you as a consultant and you come back here and make some hash for us and then you get to come and play, right? And, um, When we first set the machine up, I was talking to Giddy Up, the founder of Emotech and who I kind of developed Lab Resin with, and he was like, you know, something you're going to find out immediately, Bill, is it's the grower's fault if it's good, and it's your fault if it's bad.

1:25:27SpeakerGet used to that shit right now. This is your new world. and you know i i i consider myself to be at least that good at cultivating cannabis as i have been extracting it and and fortunate that i learned on exceptional material so this was a like a new world for me to come into the um this meant trash in and we want gold out right and then you know live resin In those early days, man, we didn't harvest rooms for it.

1:26:04SpeakerWe walked really big, exceptionally grown rooms and picked the five, six, seven best plants of each cultivar. And myself and like a Rye Pritchard or a Phil Haig level of careful harvested those plants very particularly. And it was taken care of that way all the way through. This was the top cut. It was only supposed to be that. Within, you know, maybe three weeks, the owners came to me and were like, hey, we got a room full of aces.

1:26:37SpeakerCan we freeze? It's like, fuck. And I knew. This was mindful? Yeah.

1:26:47SpeakerI knew that was coming from the first run. Honestly, when I opened the first pot of live resin, I had a few, a series of thoughts that weren't around the quality. My very first thought was like, wow, I'm going to be able to figure out how to never trim again. I was like, we're freezing everything. I'm fucking out of the trim game. My second thought was like, wow, This is special and good.

1:27:18SpeakerPeople are probably going to fight about this. And then my third thought, I was like, wow, I guarantee someone is going to figure out how to use this to make something bad. You know what I mean? Because it looks so amazing. You can right away out of the gate use this as a tool of destruction. And it happened, you know, reliably fast as commercially driven things do.

1:27:48SpeakerBut everybody on this panel has the capability of producing, you know, ridiculous quality, setting standards, refusing material.

1:28:01SpeakerI'm that guy. I don't see as much trash. People know I'm going to ask them why the hell they think it's good. And they're going to have to explain to me. So, you know, Mark and I were talking about this on the way over here. I was like, I don't want to reward that bad behavior. On the flip side, All of these separation and purification techniques open up a whole bunch of cool new products and ability to formulate and do things with product that couldn't be used.

1:28:33SpeakerAnd that's why it's awesome. Same, I'm stoked that Rosin blew up the solvent machine because the accessibility for a small producer to single source and do a craft thing Went up, but I do think rosin CRC for melts. I ask everybody. That's why I got my buddy trainer here. He came to me with melts and rosin and fresh grass the day I met him. And I was like, oh, you give me many shits, you know?

1:29:06SpeakerAnd I'm smoking this product today, you know? I don't know if you can see the jar, but. Shout out to you, Jari. Thanks, Dr. Mark.

1:29:22SpeakerBut Phil, tell them about your gig here in Vermont. So I'm out here in Vermont. 802 Strong. Which ties into this conversation, right? I came on a console and I was like, wow, this is a market that I have tolerance for quality. That work, you can actually get paid to do a good thing. And I ended up landing here at Zen Barn, music venue, vertical place, really beautiful.

1:29:51SpeakerFamily owned, not a multi-state operator. Family owned business that was a buyback from an MSO that failed in the state. So it's actually super cool that mom and pop dispensary bought a cultivation manufacturing plant.

1:30:10SpeakerAnd we're doing some really cool stuff, both in market in Ross and, you know, obviously, if I'm not here, I'm going to be bringing something we're building. And yeah, it's super fucking cool.

1:30:25SpeakerI'm kind of overwhelmed with joy to see all these folks on the call. Yeah, Eric, it's been a minute and you've been on our TV. Yeah, no, it's been, I usually don't do anything like this. So it's really nice to be out and about and actually like be. Yeah, shout out to Jenny for connecting us. Yeah, yeah, it was very, very, very awesome you contacted her too.

1:30:47BubblemanOh, is that Jenny from Vermont?

1:30:49SpeakerYes.

1:30:50BubblemanAll right. Yeah. Shout out to shout out to Jenny. Indeed. I want to give, uh, Adam had his hand up. I just, we were getting, it might've been something that Bill was talking about it before we get too far away. Adam, please go ahead real quick.

1:31:02SpeakerYeah, no worries. I just want to build on what you guys are saying. That's the question for the group. Like has solvent extraction actually just found its niche in turning garbage to gold? Cause I know like there's a few of you guys that, uh, you know, you came into this game looking for like that, like, So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

1:31:48SpeakerHow I found Gray Wolf, Gray Wolf's work. And Gray Wolf was hugely influential for me in kind of building those first closed loop systems. But one of the like the untapped potential at that time was everybody was throwing their trim away. And nobody had anything that they could do with their trim. And BHO was actually something that you could do that you could make shatter out of trimmings that people were just throwing in the garbage.

1:32:20SpeakerBut you see this theme kind of continue and carry through to today and people just getting better and better at making something that's marketable out of either a grower's mistake or something that maybe doesn't have as much commercial value. I feel like a lot of the things that happened, it's happened out of mistakes and learning from things like that. But it's like, it's the more places I've been, the more you need to be able to find a place for everything that is grown.

1:32:47SpeakerEverything, you don't want to waste anything. Exactly. As a business, especially as it gets more competitive, part of what we have to be able to do is be able to find a place for things That, you know, because there's always, you know, depending on the size of grow that you're working with, you know, we work with a really big one up here. You know, it just depends on what part of it, like the trim or, you know, I used to have people trim wet so I could just get the trim, you know, do live resin with trim.

1:33:13SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

1:33:35SpeakerSo it's like, you know, or else you go out of business and then all the people, the families and friends you bring in who you want to take care of because it's been, you've been in business long enough to where people have, you know, thrown everything they have into it and you really need to be able to come up with options for when, you know, like let's say the weather's bad or things freeze or things happen, you know, especially outdoor grows, things like that.

1:33:57SpeakerYou have to be able to figure out something or else you go out of business.

1:34:01MurphyWell, failure is important, but the rate of failure I think is also pretty relevant here. And I think that's where prohibition comes into play because when it was prohibition everywhere, everyone kind of developed at a similar pace. Like there would be one or two people who showed up to Amsterdam and fucked shit up. But like it wasn't everyone showing up with the new version of everything. It was a lot of people showing up with Their version of the same strain, right?

1:34:33MurphyLike even, you know, the proliferation of the way we cultivate, a lot of that, you know, happened at such a slower pace under prohibition, but at such a more consistent pace. And what I have found really interesting, you know, I've been, you know, training people on new systems and consulting for a very long time now. And every new market All of that goes through the exact same bullshit.

1:35:03MurphyWe do not learn from our mistakes. Every new market comes in with wax and shatter again before they get live resin and diamonds again. And it's like we all have the same extractors. There hasn't been much innovation on stainless steel tubes in a long time. But what that shows me is that we can only innovate as fast as the flower. And so it's that rate of failure.

1:35:31MurphyTheir cultivators have to get better and fail more to improve. And then the extractors have to get that exposure. It's like almost that 10,000 hours sort of perspective where it's like you need 10 runs that came out the same and 10 that came out unexpected before you know how the next 20 are going to go with any real experience under your belt. And I think Prohibition has made it, you know, this funny cycle where we're going to see the exact, you know, if, if France starts, you know, implementing new facilities, they're going to grow some basic low potency swag and some really average homogenous low flavor concentrates.

1:36:16MurphyLike they're going to do the same things and they're going to slowly go, they're going to make a hard candy. Like we don't, you know, like we just do the same stuff over and over. And, uh, Part of that, I think, is not to put it all on the consumers, but the consumers are in the best position to say, we don't have to start over from the beginning.

1:36:39MurphyGive us what they have. Start today. I love learning about the history of it, but I think the consumers should demand the current version.

1:36:49SpeakerWell, let's talk about the consumer too, right? Like there's a reason why the demand for, you know, lower, lower end product is higher because people have a budget. And so if you can provide that, you know, a better experience through using maybe CRC or using some advanced kind of techniques to turn garbage to gold, you can present an option for these consumers that, you know, like maybe it's better value for them and they're making a choice consciously that, you know, that they just want to extend the buck.

1:37:20SpeakerThey know.

1:37:21MurphyThey know that. That's why they buy it. Look, like I remember thinking carts are never going to catch on. Who would want that? It's so expensive. It ruins the oil. Why would it work? And I was so wrong. You know, I'll never, I'll never be able, you know, to go back to the days when carts weren't the only way you could make a profit, you know, producing oil in the regulated market.

1:37:43MurphyAnd, you know, that's the consumer saying we'd rather have it be more convenient than be more flavorful. So some of it is we have to listen. They do tell us what they want. And we and we say, but what if it could Be good in our, you know, margin of production puts ourselves out of business. Like maybe we do have to just embrace that some people like mids.

1:38:07SpeakerWe're in a commodity market where price and cost of goods sold is going to always win. And so the 800 pound gorilla in the room is that it's cheaper to chemically convert CBD into THC than it is to extract THC from cannabis plants. So with that being in the room, I mean, all that hemp derived D9 that's out there is all from chemical conversion, not from fractionation of mother liquor.

1:38:41SpeakerSo let's face it, we're in a commodity industry here where price is always going to win. And like Bill said, people drink Budweiser. I bet you on this crew here, people would rather prefer like a heady IPA, something locally brewed, an artisan product. But yeah, the bigger addressable market And, you know, look at the moves that the MSOs have made. All big MSOs are now getting into the hemp space.

1:39:11SpeakerJuana now has a hemp thing. I think this hemp thing is completely taking the market out and maybe suck the little wind out of the high quality at it.

1:39:23BubblemanWell, it's that next, it's that next level, right? Okay, so Ryan, Telly had his hand up. I just, I was gonna say one thing prior, but I think it might have, oh, when Adam was talking about the early days, turning trash into stash, I used the exact same term. That term has changed a little bit. When I said trash to stash back in the day, like that trim was amazing.

1:39:44BubblemanIt made five star plus bubble hash. Trash into stash doesn't have to mean like mouse soaked, urine soaked, you know what I mean? Like that's a, we need to be careful with the language that we speak. Of course, what Adam is speaking of when he does say trash to gold, yes, you can take material that's not as good as maybe, you know, that's lost a lot of its margin that you can take, you can clean up a little bit, make it an affordable product.

1:40:10BubblemanAnd this is, this is the difficulty. Look, I'm sure the majority of the people on this panel, if we could, we'd make it so everyone was smoking the greatest product in the world. But not everyone has the money or wants to put their money towards that the same way that we do.

1:40:25MurphySo then it becomes a market that if you want to- And I'd rather see all those extractors get health insurance, you know? Like we all have a stake in this. And I think we, you know, what we need to do is really embrace- Our position in these roles, because like Mark said, if the goal is cheapest D9, if customers say, I want the cheapest D9, that's what I need.

1:40:49MurphyThat's what I'm going to spend 80% of my money at the dispensary on. Then we can scale that up in a way that puts less people at risk so that the people who want to do really cool, flavorful stuff can hold their market. You know, a craft brewery doesn't try to compete with Budweiser. They don't have to compare themselves to Budweiser. It would be weird to. They're not the same.

1:41:12SpeakerRight. Yeah, that's one thing I want to make sure is like, well, you know, we may have found the niche in being able to be the good recyclers of the industry. I want to make sure we're not relegated to that position because, you know, that's something that like has always been my goal is to, is to just get to the middle of the tricone, you know, like strip away the cuticle, The, you know, the secretory cells, I just want to get to just the pure, as pure the oil as I can.

1:41:47SpeakerAnd on my journeys, I've found that to be butane extraction. And I find it to be, you know, like when you have great weed and, you know, I consider a good hash maker, A good hash maker is only as good as their ability to grow or curate good material to me. You know, like if you want to talk about like at the highest level, you know, of like, you know, competition hash making when it comes to like, you know, solventless or solvent.

1:42:16SpeakerIt really comes down to your understanding of cannabis at that point as just like, you know, as as a cultivator and, you know, at an intuitive level. So I just want to make sure that like that's that's put in this conversation here because I know like Yari and a couple other couple other people probably probably want to make sure he said that because Yari is a hybrid living soil, single source all the way to the end and he crushes it.

1:42:43SpeakerSo

1:42:44MurphyYeah, I remember selling him commercial equipment and it fucking up his oil. And like, like, I remember that it was weird to hear that story again today, because like, I haven't thought about it in a while. But I think about that a lot where people are ruining their own products, you know, by trying to adapt to a way that the market wants us to do it, you know, and I think there's so much opportunity to innovate you know when we can we can really focus on what our goal is if every extraction is a experiment then you know you can do good science and not prove your hypothesis but like have a goal before you start and to make fire does not count that's not a goal like that's not all of it's going to catch on fire so that's not really a you know the goal has to be more specific than that if the goal is make the cheapest d9 Get your efficiency numbers up.

1:43:39MurphyI could be the most efficient at extracting cannabinoids. I could be the most efficient at extracting terpenes. I could be the fastest. But a lot of people look at saying I have the coldest solvent tank. They measure things that are weird and extraneous instead of their ability to achieve their intended output.

1:44:04SpeakerAnd Murphy, I wasn't using that as like knocking on you. You helped me as much as I. Oh, I know.

1:44:10MurphyI just remember not being able to solve it. And I still don't like that. Yeah.

1:44:17SpeakerSo but I mean, what Telly brought up is a good point. And like that is the I am I'm on a much smaller scale than I'd say probably most of you. But me doing everything on my own and being in control of all of it, I can see all the variables when something works better, when something doesn't work better. All of the things that I've learned have been from all of my own mistakes with all of my own material.

1:44:39SpeakerSo doing all those things over the year has got me to the point where there is no trash, there is no mess ups, there is no bad stuff anymore because I've already failed every way that you possibly can. So, but being in control of the clones, making a tissue culture room, growing everything in living soil. I'm on my 58th round of the same soil. So it's been 10 years in the same dirt.

1:45:04SpeakerAll those things contribute to Hunting the best terpenes. I've done side-by-sides with people that grow rock wool. We've got the same cuts. The terps just come out better than living soil. So, um, I'm glad to call it. I don't invite your stuff, buddy. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yari, can you talk about some of the cuts? What are you running now? I've got tons of cuts. There's a lot of stuff that I've been growing for like 15 years that I've that I've just kept around and then there's always new stuff that we're trying out and my circle of friends is the same but I have an eight light room and a nine light room and I try and do a one new strain or not one new one but one strain per table so that I just always have like the biggest variety of flavors and some are the staples and then I'm always peppering new ones, but there's a lot.

1:46:00SpeakerAnd what I've been seeing that's pretty interesting is that although I'd say some of the newer generations, once the candy and the gas and all the hype stuff, there's a lot of people that when I do these old school ones, they're gone. As soon as I tell somebody they're available, they're out the door. Strawberry Cough, The Four Collins Cut, Super Lemon Haze, Great Cola. That's probably one of the oldest ones that I've done.

1:46:24SpeakerI probably have, I think, 40 or 50 cultivars in the grow room right now. So there's a lot. And going back to things, it's interesting because we were talking about colors of stuff. And it seems like the consumers dictating What they want, and it's not really the best outcome. Everyone's so hyped on this white rosin when people are pulling it at six weeks. The plant isn't even close to getting to its maturity to really produce the best that it can, especially on the terpene level.

1:47:02SpeakerSo it's pretty strange that that is dictating. People are more concerned on the color versus the flavor and the experience of the actual hash itself. That's always been a hard thing as far as quality versus what people want. What I consider like what I like to smoke versus what I find other people care about tend to be different things. It always surprised me as I went through the business of like, how is it that you don't want the best flavor thing, whether it looks yellow or not?

1:47:34SpeakerYou know, to me, that was always the thing was the flavor and like the nose, like what That's not what people care about necessarily. Sometimes it's strength. Sometimes it's not even a smell because they have kids or they don't want something that has a strong smell. So there is definitely a market for everything, it seems like. But yeah, the super high quality stuff, it's sometimes not as sought after in certain markets.

1:47:59MurphyWell, I think we just lack the language for it.

1:48:03SpeakerWell, you don't, you also have...

1:48:05Etienne FontanYou've negated the education as well, right? In the sense that People go and buy your product. They don't necessarily know what each product is, nor the extraction process that got it there, right? And most people have waited to see what the market dictates as opposed to putting out the diversity because of the cost, right? You can't run a whole bunch of different SKUs, package them and get them out the door, right?

1:48:30Etienne FontanSo these are real world situations where the market itself educated itself as opposed to y'all educating the market, correct? Thank you so much for joining us.

1:49:06Etienne FontanThank you for joining us.

1:49:33Etienne FontanHow do each one of you decide which products you take forward in a new market? That's a challenge and a question into itself.

1:49:44MurphyAnd usually that's not an extractor making that decision, unfortunately.

1:49:49SpeakerYou know, guys, we wouldn't have had Vibram. Sorry, Kelly. Go ahead. Nobody wanted that shit. They were like, what the fuck is this? It looks weird. How come it doesn't shatter?

1:50:02MurphyIt gets my jar sticky. Yep.

1:50:05SpeakerNobody wanted it. But how do you use it, right? You're not able to commercialize it. But we, I was working at a place that had nine stores. We had a vertical. So we were able to train bud tenders to be like, just close your eyes and smell this and decide if you want this or not. And people wanted it when they smelled it. You know what I mean?

1:50:27SpeakerWhen I showed, when I met Mark, I showed him a pretty fat jar of Dog's Waltz. I'm kind of side eyeing him right now. James Smith, he grabbed it right out of my hands and stuck his fingers in there and stuck it in his mouth because he was so overwhelmed by how, like, and I was like, back and forth whether I hated or loved him for being able to do that.

1:50:52SpeakerIt was the soft serve ice cream of weed.

1:50:56MurphyThat's the privilege of Colorado, though, I will say, is we have always maintained the ability to have a sample product for people to smell. There are lots of places that the bug tender has never smelled it. It is so sealed up and individually packaged, the person who grew it has no idea what that final nitrogen-packed tin can smells like. So that data point, consumers are using every piece of information we give them.

1:51:27MurphyAnd what we give them is flashy packaging,

1:51:33MurphyAnd so it's like giving them the language to ask for what they want. A lot of them would say they want more flavor. A lot of them would. You know, make a sacrifice for, you know, a lower potency and more broad flavor if the price point fit. But like, we've got to use every piece of data and we give them so few, you know, because what we say to each other about it is like the strain name.

1:52:03Murphybecause we intuitively know like oh you have some papaya melt yes i do want to see that every time you know like oh you have honey banana melt yeah i'll take a look at that every time i know that if i'm looking for gas like every once in a while i run into some people who always have sour diesel wax and let me tell you something that sour diesel wax is still the fire and the fire is a useless phrase But it's the one that means a lot to all of us.

1:52:31MurphyYou know, we've all learned and defined what that fire is. Consumers, you know, don't have that same recognition. A lot of us who want that fire will still smoke a like clean sourced cart when we're on vacation at a Thanksgiving family dinner because we all recognize You know, that there's a time and place for everything. You know, a lot of us have our drawer like a wine aficionado would have a cellar of a fancy bottle that we just have.

1:53:02MurphyAnd I've got this little half gram of some special stuff that I take a little dab of from time to time and save for nostalgia. So, you know, the language of how we share that with consumers is really lacking. And within the solvent space, it's it's usually A lot of us saying we want education, but then a marketing department who is detached from both cultivation and extraction.

1:53:26Etienne FontanThe enemy.

1:53:28BubblemanThe enemy. Marshall wanted to chime in, but before he did, we were talking about color and it was going on in my head and I thought, wasn't it Bob Marley who said, until the color of a man's hash is of no more significance than the color of his eyes? Yeah. Had to drop that one because I was feeling it. And Marshall, continue the conversation. Oh, I also wanted to thank Etienne for coming in.

1:53:52BubblemanYou know, I was really trying to keep the panel today really sort of, you know, oil and hash oriented. But I think Etienne brings a really great perspective from that dispensary perspective as we're talking about the customer and the I don't know if you guys heard it as loud as I did, but I heard there's a great disconnect between the processors and the dispensaries who are selling their products.

1:54:16BubblemanAnd I think Murphy made a good point that that is that marketing department that steps in and has no connectivity to either of these processes. So Marshall, please go ahead. Yeah, thanks.

1:54:27SpeakerI know I don't have the experience in this industry like you guys do at all, but I just wanted to give you guys my personal perspective on this because I have, you know, had pieces of it here and there. Anyway, I grew up in Utah, very conservative, right? Never thought of cannabis legal in any state, let alone many of them. I'm living in Washington now. Washington's one of the states where you cannot open any of the packaging.

1:54:49SpeakerYou can't do anything with it, but look at it. And I mean, you can smell the whole store, right? Because it smells good in there. But also then in between living in Utah and Washington, I lived in Humboldt for six years, seven years, roughly on and off. And so I knew people growing and I could go get it from them or hang out with them or whatever.

1:55:10SpeakerSo I think maybe I was spoiled from that experience in comparison to what I have here in Washington. I do not go to the rec shops anymore. In fact, I've actually almost nearly stopped smoking because I can't go to the store, get something that I want. I throw it away. I've thrown away thousands of dollars worth of products because I smoke it once. Thank you so much for joining us.

1:55:52SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

1:56:16SpeakerRight in the shop and you don't know. And you can't, even when you go to the website, they'll tell you they're doing something else. I can analytically very easily tell you whether or not that's real. I can taste it and tell you whether or not it's real pretty immediately. If anybody has, you know, wants any help trying to help battle this, like there's me, I don't understand where The market struggles, then these other synthetics become cheaper.

1:56:41SpeakerPeople start using them. How do we deal with this? Like I said, the idea of growing up in Utah where it was so conservative, right? We're in this place where it's now and all I see it is destroying itself. And anyway, so if there's anything I can do to help analytically, sensory, anything, any of this stuff, please reach out to me because I believe in all this stuff being medicine and also just personally enjoyable.

1:57:07SpeakerFrom sensory and experience, something else like that. And I struggle to see what's already happened to it here in Washington. So.

1:57:13MurphyCan you analyze and quantify flavonoids?

1:57:16SpeakerI cannot personally right now, but I do have a lab.

1:57:19MurphyEvery single person I've asked for 10 years says that.

1:57:22SpeakerWell, I mean, I have a lab a couple blocks from my work where I can't for sure.

1:57:27MurphyI think that's a huge opportunity for us that we're missing. Even when we started being able to test for terpenes, it was good info, but all of us recognized that the terpene number was too low based on our experience, like the volume of the flavor part.

1:57:42SpeakerBut that's the color. The color is not likely cannabinoids. The color is probably.

1:57:50MurphyAnd if we can name them and quantify them.

1:57:54SpeakerYeah. You got to remember, too, in the plant, there's two parts to a flavonoid. There's a glycoside, there's a sugar portion, and then there's what's called the aglycone. So typically, by the time you've gotten to extraction or you're getting to Thank you for joining us.

1:58:37SpeakerSo if you are extracting and you're using a non-polar hydrocarbon, yeah, you're not going to get all the water-soluble crap that was in the mice piss, right? Because that's all water-soluble, right? If it was fat-soluble, it would still be in the mouse, right, John? That's right. And you know, Before we travel off in another direction, because I'm starting to run out of steam, there's a hash, a terpene that nobody really has been able to extract successfully in any large amount called hashenine.

1:59:21SpeakerYou heard of that? I guess. But anyway, people find it in extremely old hash and they can met out the hashenate, which is a very syrupy golden liquid that tastes like the best hash you've never had in your mouth ever. But I have discovered a way to make it happen. And what we did was we took five pounds of

1:59:50SpeakerA certain kind of oil train wreck, and we froze it in a nitrogen freezer for maybe three years. At the end of those three years, I pulled that out, put it in the vacuum oven, and passed it into a collection device, which I got off of, I can't remember who now, but this thing would collect It's tiny droplets as the rest of the oil was going by.

2:00:24SpeakerAnd that would be hashenine. And I found out that if you do five pounds of the train wreck, that you can end up getting about a quarter pound of this hashenine. And I didn't want to see that disappear into the ethers because I don't know of anybody else that looked into it or anything. So I wanted to... John, there was a paper published in 2011 by a group over in Switzerland, I think of all places, and they found it only in the areas of hash that were exposed to sunlight.

2:01:02SpeakerAnd so the same group basically that identified hashenine, they used all the analytical chemistry, you know, mass spectrum and all that kind of stuff, identified the molecule. They also postulated how it was being formed, again, in a photolytic reaction of myrcene. So myrcene And so, yeah, that paper was published in 2011, I believe. Hey, Mark, are they not finding it in hash that sees really deep vacuum for extended periods of time as well?

2:01:41SpeakerI don't know. Because I thought they were finding it in like these like cold, long, cold shatters, too. Perhaps, yeah. I could be totally wrong, but I read something on that in maybe 2014. As far as I know, Hashanin has never been proven to modulate or potentiate THC. No, you don't get high off smoking it at all. It just is an amazing flavor. A terpene beyond terpenes.

2:02:16SpeakerThat's all. You can smoke all of it you want and you won't get high. I took it with me to Emerald Cup, one of the first or second ones. And at one of the booths, I ladled some into a couple of pipes because everybody was asking. Because at that time, I was being observed quite a lot. So I put some hasheny in the pipes. And the next thing you know, we had a group of 100 people follow us around Emerald Cup.

2:02:50SpeakerSome guy named Chance was pushing me in the chair that I was in. And he would go to a booth and go, hey, Indra's here. And then 100 people gather around because everybody wanted some of that. Even though they weren't getting high on it, it was an incredible flavor. Something that's not to be missed if you can. I still have about a quarter ounce of it in my freezer and in a jar.

2:03:20SpeakerI take it out when I end up buying crappy weed from a shop or something. I pull the Hesonate out and dose it with that. Dude, that's sneaky. But if you keep passioning around for decades, then it turns into something else. Well, it's frozen. I'm going to smoke some haze in your honor. That was a live resin card question. So live resin cards have hit the scene for a hot minute now.

2:03:55SpeakerDo any of you guys make live resin carts? And how much HT do you actually use to call it a live resin cart? Like probably like a third to 40%, I'd say, something like that. Because I use 70%. I do 70% HDE. See, that's what I would prefer. I like just straight, just like that straight. I don't even like the melt mix for my personal stuff. I just like the super terpy, but you know, that's like.

2:04:20MurphyI just use the GC and dose it by total terpene content.

2:04:30MurphySo it's HTE, but because I fraction everything, I can pull, you know, lighter and heavier back together. And so, you know, to start with, I wouldn't call it HTE. if you've got you know anything over i would say 20 at the most but you know 10 would be ideal of dissolved cannabinoids in it so you know a lot of people call things hte that are really you know nearly 40 still other cannabinoids thca and stuff that's dissolved um and so for it to be you know clean enough and high enough purity you've still got flavonoids you've still got Esther's, you know, all kinds of oily things compared to like the, you know, really more volatile terpenes.

2:05:18MurphyAnd so when I just aim for that specific terpene content, because my HCE is all very watery because I've fractioned it, I know that it's, you know, going to be almost 40% terpenes. And then, you know, another 20% of that other category, because a lot of people are putting out even again now, Back to the language issue, we call it high terpene extract, but some people's high terpene extract is 7% terpenes.

2:05:48MurphyAnd so, you know, they could put that 100% in the cart and it still wouldn't have the flavor profile, you know, and some people's high terpene extract, they're decarbing and heating. And so they've changed that profile in a thousand ways that Mark would love to nerd out about probably for us, you know, and the rearrangement and, you know, how some of those are going to change. And so You know, the way we even define HCE is still really vague because high should have a minimum threshold, I would think.

2:06:17MurphyBut what is it?

2:06:18SpeakerSend me some.

2:06:19MurphyWhat's that?

2:06:21SpeakerI said send me some.

2:06:22MurphySend you some? You going to save it for decades, though? Because I heard we got to smoke it fast is what I heard from Sam. I can adjust.

2:06:28MaxI don't think you get to smoke fast.

2:06:33MurphyI do love that interaction, though, of watching, you know, Sam bring up, is it, you know, biologically relevant and for you to say no it's just for fun that's probably one of the big marketing issues we've run into is that because we had to market this legally as a medical product to create an infrastructure and then we were marketing literal medical products and america markets medical products better than any country in the world and by better i mean You know, with deception and efficacy.

2:07:07MurphyBut you know, we haven't been able to say this is important because we like it. This is important because it tastes good. This is important because it's fun. We've had to say this is important For your mood, for your inflammation, for your medical whatever, you know, and so marketing has been twisted into this, you know, need to impose a medical value on a feature of the product rather than just embracing the value.

2:07:39SpeakerMurphy, you do understand that when you combust or vape labanoids, you deactivate them.

2:07:49MurphyOh, of course, yeah, if you want the medical benefit, we're talking about food, and that's where, you know, that marketing gets completely lost to the consumer, because now consumers are trying to eat gummies that have terpenes added, that's going to do, you know, I don't know what, and they're not getting a flavonoid count or any kind of nutritional, you know, there's so many valuable parts of that oil that we throw away, you know.

2:08:17SpeakerLet me just mute that.

2:08:20BubblemanSorry about that. Sorry. Yeah, I just muted the mic. I did want to talk about something that also feeds into exactly what we're talking about here. In the sense of, you know, extracting these aromatic volatiles, you know, we love them. A lot of people love this high terpene extract. They love the flavor profiles. At what point in time, because we know what the capabilities of these compounds are, especially in purity, At what point will we saturate and hit the number that is like, you know what, this might not be good to be volatizing or vaporizing and inhaling into our lungs.

2:09:01BubblemanI remember when Tony started doing the terps with Blue River Extracts and Blue River Extracts Canada. We were doing, you know, terp dips and just dipping our, our full melt bubble right into like, just like a jar of like water clear. I mean, we were calling them terpenes. I would suspect they were probably should be named more accurately aromatic volatile compounds because I'm sure there were other, you know, phials and phthalates and esters and Other things present other than just terpenes, we just didn't have the capability of perceiving them with analytical equipment.

2:09:37BubblemanSo how much is too much?

2:09:42MurphyI mean, I think we've all tasted a cart that was too much before. And the issue is that, you know, we've allowed the agricultural nature of the plant and the way that every harvest can be different. To cross over into the lab, there's not a good excuse for every batch to be different in the lab. We can control a lot. And the amount of flexibility that we give the batch should be limited to those flavors, to those volatiles, to those things that are actually unique.

2:10:14MurphyAnd, you know, we see that very plainly when we look at the label on flour because you can have a room of 15 different Thank you for joining us.

2:10:31MurphySo, you know, to recognize that margin of variance, you know, would require imposing that in our manufactured products too. And so, you know, the fact that most people don't even put the terpene content on the label, and then if they do, do they have a standard for that? You know, is someone, because you can have flour at 1.8% terps and concentrate at 1.8% terps. That's common, that's for sale today, and that doesn't make any fucking sense.

2:11:02BubblemanAdam and Marshall both have their hands up. I think it was Marshall first and then Adam. So go ahead, Marshall.

2:11:11SpeakerHow do you put a hand up? I'm not very tech savvy.

2:11:14BubblemanWell, are you on a phone or a computer? Computer. Okay, so it's down, I believe, next to react. Like next to share. There's a little heart. Oh, okay.

2:11:26SpeakerIt's a drop down or pop up.

2:11:27BubblemanCool. Awesome.

2:11:29SpeakerThanks, guys. I'm not too good with this shit.

2:11:32BubblemanWell, I will say before Marshall goes and before Tony goes, or not Tony, I was saying Tony because Tony's the guy that's in the room chatting, just said, Nate, Yari's carts are the best thing out there. Little props for you there, buddy. So go ahead, Marshall, and then Adam.

2:11:51SpeakerYeah, on the topic of how much is too much, I think also the delivery method can be pretty important and how hot you get the oil and how it's being volatilized off of the material. So for instance, if you're dabbing with any amount of terpenes, you can create acrolin and other reactive aldehydes that can actually really damage your lungs. There's definitely medical case studies out there, people dying from this.

2:12:16SpeakerThank you so much for joining us.

2:12:44SpeakerAs well, I've dosed some of the hemp terpenes into, or oil, I like to call it as well because you're correct, there's all kinds of other compounds in there besides terpenes, into beer. And I overdosed myself one night, kind of on accident, didn't have lab equipment to dilute it, had a stainless steel... Like straw that I had in the kitchen, dip that in some oil, put that into some Everclear.

2:13:13SpeakerSo I diluted it out into some alcohol and then took one drop of that Everclear into a beer. And kind of swirled around the can, smelled it. I could smell it. It smelled pretty good. Took a sip and it was either it came back to the top of the beer and was concentrated or it was just too much in there. And I did this kind of for hop companies making flavorings and things for beers for years.

2:13:34SpeakerSo I tried this before, but first time with hemp, it was like a pretty strong stimulant. It for sure dropped my blood pressure, increased my heart rate, and it was intense for about an hour. So anyway, that's where I did overdo it in a beverage just that one time when I didn't have lab equipment to actually get the dilution right. And it was too much. Smoking wise, though, I've never hit that.

2:13:59SpeakerI definitely do a lot of sensory and oils we're making and I can just smell these things all day. You definitely get high for about a half hour as you're doing it and then it goes away. But yeah. They're also, you know, like we're talking about with solvents, right? These are all solvents. Some of them are better for the others. Myrcene is definitely carcinogenic. So one of the major components in there, especially if you're doing a good job extracting it, it's got two terminal double bonds that are reactive potentially and can cause problems.

2:14:28SpeakerSo just keep that in mind. I think too much is where... You know, you're just overindulging. If you look at the level of concentration of the plant, that's the right amount. You go beyond that, it may taste great, it may smell good, but it's probably not great for you. Especially when you're removing it from the plant matrix. That's how it was designed. That's how we evolved with it.

2:14:51SpeakerSo that's how I would consider it. And think of it that way. Enjoy it if you want every once in a while, but I wouldn't go smoking really high HD all the time. Probably will lead to problems.

2:15:02BubblemanInteresting perspective for sure. Thanks, Marshall. Go ahead, Adam. And then Jorge after.

2:15:08SpeakerNo, I know that's the feeling as well, because I'm pretty sensitive to terpenes, especially in a cart. Super interesting, though, about like the maybe the carts that I smoked were not really vaporizing at the right temperature, but I was getting like just really bad, like kind of burning nose. Um, if it gets over probably about 5% terpenes in a cart or like 5%, like everything that's in the HTE really, um, But really, I think another kind of good thing to bring up here is that it's a good opportunity for some of the crystallization processes as well, where you can separate, I know Murphy, you were mentioning HTE, but being able to separate the HTA out from the THCA, then you can actually create like a standardized product, reformulating those, creating repeatable formulations.

2:15:58SpeakerBut I think the repeatability here is like, is a big factor as well as like, A lot of what has been brought up is really just missing standards in the industry. Like if you look at the wine industry, you're not allowed to call something, you know, champagne unless it's from a certain region and produced in a certain way. And so that's missing from our industry. And so you end up with, I know someone mentioned that You know, buying a live resin cart, but it's just like D9 from hemp mixed with like some like terpenes that they bought.

2:16:34SpeakerAnd what's missing there is really like the standards, not just for marketing, but also for like how it was produced and then getting everybody on the same language.

2:16:46BubblemanI feel like that is an interesting perspective that we've covered many times here on Hash Church. And whenever I go back to thinking about it, I feel that, and it really feeds right into what Marshall just said, that the plant matrix knows how to create it the safest way. Even though I've been chain smoking concentrates for like 25 to 30 years, hopefully I'll be okay. I feel pretty good.

2:17:10BubblemanYeah, it's... What was I going to say? I don't want to lose my train of thought. Oh, that we're not perceiving everything that's present in a cannabinoid and aromatic volatile compound profile. So those profiles have a variety of things that never... Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so happy to be here with you today. I'm so happy to be here with you today. I'm so happy to be here with you today.

2:17:58BubblemanToo much of the picture. And when I say too much, yes, these compounds are in way smaller amounts. But for anyone that has ever had the exposure to thials, you don't need a lot. Like that is that funk and that garlic and that, It's so strong that I theorize, I don't think it's accurate, I'm not a chemist or anything, but from the conversations with Nick and Dr. Mark and different people, that this giant terpene profile that we give all homage to is balanced precariously on a much smaller delicate profile of smaller, lesser percentages that can shift that thing from rotten baby diapers to strawberries in a very, very, very small percent.

2:18:44SpeakerSo we know that we know that because you can buy off the shelf terpenes that are like if you were going to test the terpene profile of a plant, it looks exactly the same as the formula from off the shelf kind of botanicals. Right. But when you taste it, you know, it's completely different.

2:19:00BubblemanSomething's missing. Please, Jorge, it's you're up. You've had your hand up. Thank you, by the way, Adam.

2:19:06SpeakerSo I just want to share like my experience on like with these topics. I've played with CRC a lot and then a lot of testing and also with HTE. So to start from the beginning, like back when they were saying CRC is removing terps, I did a lot of testing on that and found that actually the terpenes at least looked The footprint looked identical to the amount of terpenes in there.

2:19:33SpeakerLike nothing was being offset or extra, maybe a few 1%, I mean like points of a percent of a conversion say, but the flavor was still there essentially. So when I looked into it further, I used the UV light and found that the flavonoids, which will glow in that once they're absorbed into the media, the absorbents, They were showing up in the media and that's the flavor that was being pulled out that was associated with the flavor loss, say.

2:20:04SpeakerBut when I looked into it further, it's like that's where you say how much is too much. All those compounds are a little bit heavier, so they're going to give you more of a harsher taste to the extract. So CRC is actually balancing it and giving it like a more better profile. And then You know people thought like okay the red was more like it needed more CRC to remove that color but that red is like we already removed the color with CRC that's the chlorophyll uh and the other like flavonoids you know the other pigments so uh that red was more from like the carotenoids which are just basically like a hydrocarbon chains that were breaking down they were Oxygen atoms were attaching to it and making them santaphil.

2:20:50SpeakerSo now they're looking red and that's the red we're seeing. So we were never going to pull out that red with more CRC. So that's where people used too much of it and gave it a bad name. But essentially, once we went into looking further into the HTE, I started looking into, say, de-waxing the HTE. And that came from pushing it through a micron filter using nitrogen.

2:21:15SpeakerAnd that would allow it to basically de-wax it and pull even more heavier compounds. And started playing then with like making my own vapes and found that like, I don't know if you guys dab distill it before or just like pure distill it or diamonds, but it doesn't really just, it doesn't give you that full high, you know, it's like a little buzz that it gives you really quick.

2:21:39SpeakerAnd I started noticing like, okay, you don't really need that much D9, I guess, to get you that high where you're comfortable, you're satisfied. That comes more from going into, say, when you go like to, how do I say it? Like when you add the other HTE components to it. So if you, Add like a 90% cartridges, which unfortunately is what a lot of dispensaries are going for.

2:22:10SpeakerThey just look at those numbers and if it's 90% or higher, that's what they're shopping for to put on the shelves. But in reality, You don't need that much because the flour comes, you know, with very little and it does the job. So what that's telling me is that you really just need about 40, 50 percent, say, D9 in the cartridge and the rest being HTE and other stuff to basically modify that high and give you that full spectrum effect.

2:22:37SpeakerSo just basically wanted to touch up on those things just from my experiences that I've tested. I agree with that. I'm sure. I feel like the more terpenes like that does give you the better effect. And it's not about the THC number. And it is about the full spectrum terpene effect with the entourage effect that they call it. So I totally agree with that.

2:22:59MurphyI think we've been able to lean on full spectrum within the industry as like a catch all because we also have these kind of, you know, intuitive We know what fire is because we have seen the best and the worst. Just to shout out abstracts, I think to give us a language that allows us to identify that category that we've been calling Terps, Um you know which is probably more appropriate than terpenes because terpene is a real thing and terps can be a made up one you know put a z on it maybe um but you know if we could just start categorizing you know and like Marcus brought up to put the to put the number on there wouldn't necessarily communicate the influence of that number but if we could even I imagine just a pie chart of how much of this is volatile And, you know, so if we were to instead of saying high terpene extract, we were to say extremely highly volatile terpene extract versus medium volatile extracts, like are your terps popping the lid every time you open them at room temperature?

2:24:13MurphyOr do they not? You know, are these terps that are weighted by oily flavorants? Because to add that flavor category that isn't a volatile aromatic, It's also really important because like what I was just saying, you ask us for no color, we can give you no color. And if you ask us for no flavor and no color, we can give you that. But if you ask us for flavor and no color, you might be wrong about what you're asking for.

2:24:43MurphyBecause sometimes the flavor you want has color, you know, and so To be able to clarify what people are getting out of it, if we could give them a representation of this, this is a product that contains, you know, an agreed upon, we define what's high. you know because no one's going to say this is a medium level and no one's going to say low even being able to say low thc you know is an impressive achievement for the hemp industry i think um because we've just you know we've built ourselves up on delivering high but if we could start addressing it like volatile aromatic flavor and then cannabinoid potency as extractors We could start really innovating and our formulation could be delivering for everybody.

2:25:33MurphyIt could be delivering our own efficiency. We started harvesting rooms for extraction. We started growing strains for hash making. Now we could start chasing resin for individual compounds. This shit could get better and better and better. But we do need the language for what we're looking for because we've been calling it some pretty generic terms. And I think we've exhausted The Turks, no amount of mercine is going to make a difference to me the way a little bit of humaline does, the way a little bit of thiol does, the way like those small numbers do.

2:26:08MurphyAnd I think there is a way for us to communicate that to each other. It does start with the science. We do need more people to just add it up. And it's tedious work and investigating it and coming up with a standard for it. It's no good. It's it's it's effort, you know, but that's that's the work that on our end we have to do. And then when we get done with that, we can't stop.

2:26:30MurphyWe have to then communicate it out to people in a way they can understand it so that it's not, you know, so that if you tell me two percent dial, I'm like, ooh, spicy. That doesn't mean anything to anybody else. We got to figure out how that message gets all the way.

2:26:45BubblemanAbsolutely. Jorge had his hand up and then Max, you're right after him.

2:26:51SpeakerI had a question for you guys. One observation I made, like touching up on the color, because the colors there, obviously, because the chlorophyll is there, once you remove it, this oil can oxidize quickly if there's, say, no terpenes to protect it. But some like side observation I've seen on that, I've had HTE that wasn't fully purged, that sat for like, say, a year or two, and it seems like the hydrocarbons are protecting it from the oxygen bonding to it and oxidizing it because the color...

2:27:19Speakerand smell everything there's just like when I extracted it you know and it was the stars that were sitting around waiting to get processed you know and like I said they're for sure like over a year old and it seems like they were just fresh and I just want to see if you guys have seen also a similar observation

2:27:39SpeakerI definitely feel like that that is something that happens with the oxygen not being in there and it preserves it for a long time if stuff has sat around for like that and it's already in the first place.

2:27:51MurphyYeah, some of the OGs in the group could speak to this, but in a lot of like perfume industries, you have some of those less odorous, highly volatile compounds in with your desirable odorous volatile compound to help keep it And keep it from degrading. And so the higher volatility of it, first of all, Thank you for joining us.

2:28:41MurphyRegulations, you know, because we just sort of get a little bit of tunnel vision, but I've absolutely seen that. And it's common in other industries. You know, that's why we know that butane was food safe in the first place is because it's put into like dairy products and stuff as a, you know, as a preservative and propellant.

2:29:01SpeakerAlso in the perfume industry, they use fixations like ambergris from Wales.

2:29:11BubblemanYep, true. Max, you're up.

2:29:18MaxCool. So I want to go back to what we were talking about just a moment ago, what Murphy was talking about, the quantitative versus qualitative components and how there's not necessarily a direct correlation. And what I've got anecdotally to share with you is a little cannabis adjacent, but it's a new discovery that I thought was really fascinating for me. We're working on some R&D at Medically Correct, some stuff I don't really want to talk about too much yet, but it's for an edible product that's going to ultimately be a cinnamon thing that's got capsaicin in it.

2:29:52MaxSo we're playing around with capsaicin and we've got some pure capsaicin isolate and wow, It has really increased my respect for what nature can produce and just synthesize through a plant. And the reason I'm bringing it up is because we were playing around with how much do we put in here? What is going to be like palatable? We want it to be fun, not too subtle, but not too much.

2:30:18MaxAnd through the R&D where we landed at is the amount of capsaicin that is going into like a single serving. is three one hundred thousandths of a gram and it's like really impressive how spicy it is i like like spicy food and wanted to push it a little bit more and we did some internal r d within the company and was just getting feedback from people and i'm telling you at three one hundred thousandths of a gram some people were like This is maybe a little too much.

2:30:50MaxAnd so, you know, just going back to people who want to look at a potency test and what are the numbers say, what terpene is this and that. And, you know, the difference between quantitative and qualitative value is not a direct correlation. And so I just felt like that was one where you just got immediate feedback because the capsaicin is so in your face. It's just such a not subtle thing that that was, uh, Just a recent revelation I had that's got for me respecting peppers and just the earth so much more than I did before.

2:31:25MaxAnd so I just wanted to throw that out there as food for thought.

2:31:28MurphyI think that's really valid. The Scoville, you know, range was, you know, came up with for that exact reason, because you can't communicate those tiny decimals the way that pictures of a number of spicy peppers does.

2:31:44SpeakerAt my factory in Kansas, we once extracted 2,000 pounds of fiery red peppers, and it produced about 25 gallons of this incredibly red oil. But when we opened the chamber up to have a look at it, all of a sudden, we could not take a breath in or out. Our breath was frozen. We ran out the door, opened the door and ran out. We're outside drooling and spitting.

2:32:16SpeakerAnd while we were out there, two mice ran out of the building as fast as we did. It turns out it was a great mouse remover. But yeah, that stuff is scary. And we had to go through quite a process to get it out of the chamber and pack it up and send it off to the people who wanted it. But very, very dangerous stuff. And by the way, we only use...

2:32:42SpeakerAnalytical grade isobutane for all extractions.

2:32:49BubblemanJust my Tuesday. Probably a good idea. Thanks for sharing, John.

2:32:52SpeakerAlso, too, the vanillinoid receptor and the caspin receptor interplays with the CB1 and the CB2.

2:33:04BubblemanInteresting. Just a little drop of knowledge there. Very, very interesting. I did want to welcome JM to the room and Etienne. Etienne, obviously, we heard from already, so it's always good to have him. He's a regular panelist in the room, but are you still around, JM, or did you turn your phone off? Oh, there you are. You just got to unmute yourself. There you go.

2:33:27JmUnmute. Yeah, I'm still here. What's up, guys? I'm used to listening to Hatch Church and not chiming in, so... I'm trying to break the ice here. Thank you, Marcus, for doing that for me. It's an interesting conversation regarding the total flavor we experience when we smoke hash or dab hash, save it, and terpenes, how much is too much, and then also flavonoids. And I've been of the mind that the flavonoids, as we ingest them in a vapor, are not really contributing to flavor.

2:34:04JmI've played around with, you know, watching the media and trying to add that back at minute amounts. And it didn't seem to help much. It actually was horrible. But I wonder if you look at citrus oils or just a lot of essential oils that are, you know, refined for flavoring is, you know, they will do what they call folding. You know, you'll see like a orange essential oil that'll say fivefold or, you know, tenfold.

2:34:33JmAnd what they're doing there is actually removing or reducing the amount of actual terpenes to increase the ratio of terpenoids, which I'm pretty sure are generally a little more volatile, but contain more of that quintessential flavor of, say, a blood orange versus a mandarin orange. And I wonder, Murphy, when you talk about fractionating your HTE, is Are you running that through a column to kind of split the different classes or?

2:35:12MurphyYeah, I'm just copying, you know, what any other analytical instrument would be doing. And so I'll just run through either a silica and T5 so that I can get high pressure, high resistance or through alumina if I just want You know, minimal separation and I wanted to go faster. So the media is doing a, you know, really inert job of just being a stationary phase and then just high pressure controlling the temperature.

2:35:44MurphyAgain, just copying what, you know, an HPLC GC would do so that I can then elute things based on You know, and what I do is, again, I always call it fractioning because I don't have to know when it's going to come out. I just have to have a lot of jars, you know, a lot of containers ready to go. No big deal. And I've got, you know, a falling film, so it's pretty continuous.

2:36:05MurphyBut then I'm just collecting things as they come. And if they come overlapping, I can do it again, make it longer, make it slower, but just by controlling that pressure and feed rate. And so what I get is different jars that sometimes need to be combined and sometimes need to be reprocessed.

2:36:23JmRight on. Yeah, that's what caught my eye and ear years ago when you started doing that butane-based chromatography. I'm sure you've sent all your jars to the lab.

2:36:35MurphyYeah, most of them can't be tested though. Like I want to test for waxes, right? So you brought up, you know, what's the value in the flavonoids? That's a perfect point is can of flavin contributes a lot to a texture and a viscosity and color in your oil. And whether or not it has a medical benefit when you smoke it and at what level it's got a bioavailability when you eat it, those are a lot of very complicated questions.

2:37:03MurphyBut if I want to communicate to a consumer why this color yellow is okay and this one isn't, I want to have a thing to say that counts. And so in fractioning, what I have is a bunch of jars. And many of them, I can't say what they are. Lots of them smell horrible. Some of them ferment rapidly. I got jars of weird shit. It's not helpful.

2:37:34MurphyYou know, and so what I do is I keep them. And so when I'm reformulating, what I'm actually doing is just removing things based on my own bias and the few things I can quantify. And those things are the safest parts of the oil. I can quantify THC, the only part that won't kill me.

2:37:56BubblemanHey, John. John, can you introduce yourself? Because the panel hasn't met you yet. And then we have some hands up. We have, let me just figure this out real quick. Yeah, it was Marshall again, who would be first after you introduce yourself. And then Yari has his hand up as well. So go ahead and introduce yourself.

2:38:22JmYeah, long time listener, first time caller here. True story. For real, I started Sci-Fi Systems, gosh, what, 2016 or so. I come out of the broader natural product space, you know, working with isolating compounds for the biomedical, you know, drug discovery market. But I've always loved cannabis, and I quickly found that the cannabis industry was a real chill Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:39:19JmAnd since I'm just loving it, it's a much cooler, more casual industry. And the questions and unknowns are, gosh, this plant is so, there's a lot to it. We take for granted that we just put butane in a tube and get oil, but there is a lot to it, especially as far as what we're talking about here, safety and all that. So yeah, that's me.

2:39:44BubblemanAwesome. Well, welcome. And we're happy to have you here. And Marshall, you're up.

2:39:49SpeakerYeah, just briefly on flavonoids. The name comes from a flavor from your tongue. It's a bittering component like the polyphenols. So the flavonoids are biochemically sort of like it is in between of the aromatic compounds and the terpenes and the terpenoid formation and the polyphenol formation. So the polyphenols are the water soluble bitter components, right? And then the flavonoids are kind of in this gray area in between.

2:40:17SpeakerWhen it comes to analysis, there's methods out there. It's a matter of having access to the equipment. If you guys want to start doing analysis on flavonoids, that's not a problem. We can make it happen. It's just a matter of finding the equipment. I've also been picking up old analytic equipment on auction sites. So hopefully one of these days I'll have all these capabilities in my house.

2:40:39SpeakerIt's a matter, again, it costs a lot of money even just to run them, right? It's like $20,000 just to get the power hooked up to my house to put one of these instruments in, even if it didn't cost me half a million dollars to buy outright. So anyway, I'm working on those sorts of things because I'm a curious person. That's how I ended up here. I love sensory, I love the effects, and then I'm a reductionist chemist in that way.

2:41:01SpeakerSo yeah we can we can make that happen just a matter of you know finding the equipment it is expensive that's part of the problem right is that it takes who cares about it and then it takes the money to invest in it um but there's equipment out there I know you know I know a bunch of professors at universities the less use their their equipment if if it was a good project well and and don't discount the times a lot of analytical chemists don't

2:41:26MurphyRealize that everyone else doesn't know that for you to turn it on and calibrate it to get a baseline before you can start testing a standard, if you already have a method and a standard, you're putting just days of effort, you know, into some of this equipment. And so, you know, to give you one sample and say, tell me what's in it. That could be three months of work and calibration and rerunning and development and sample prep.

2:41:55MurphyAnd then it doesn't always translate directly over to that product infused into something else. It's a tremendous amount of time that someone has to investigate. I started buying analytical equipment and quickly learned I don't have the patience to run a GC.

2:42:11BubblemanYari, you got your hand up.

2:42:13SpeakerYeah, Murphy, I had a question for you. How come you run your HTE and fractionate it through T5, which will muddle instead of leaving it as it is when it comes off the extract?

2:42:23MurphySo I'll use T5 as a dehydrating process. So if I'm just going to fraction HTE, if I have something that's already liquid and I've got THCA out of the mix, then that'll just go through Illumina. T5 just allows me to go at much higher pressure because otherwise I would have to go through a super long column. Which would just, I don't want to. And so, you know, I get a ton of resistance out of that T5 and it's just blended with the silica.

2:42:54MurphyAnd so it's just there to slow everything down, really.

2:42:58BubblemanIs T5 a media? It is.

2:43:00MurphyIt's a bentonite clay that's been acidified, essentially, so that it's going to be a little bit more similar to silica gel in that pH. And so it can hold a lot of water, specifically. And it's a very fine powder. It's probably finer particle size than the silica gel. But the silica gel is really doing the chromatography lifting. And so with that process, what I'll be able to do is get easy stuff out at high pressure.

2:43:31MurphyAnd then I have to heat it up and get the everything else out. And then that everything else can get refiltered if we want. And if I skip that part, then you get a bunch of the water soluble, water miscible, water adjacent stuff. And so, you know, T5 will help hold on to that. And there will be, there'll be terpenes, other things in there that you can still fraction off again.

2:43:56MurphyIt's just sort of, I always call it sorting my laundry. Just give me what's easy. And then I'll have, you know, an accumulation of jars that are for later that we'll come back to because I know cannabinoids left behind. But, you know.

2:44:12SpeakerBut why do all that work to formulate them back together again?

2:44:15MurphyOh, that work is... Absolutely a function of getting shitty weed and having to make the best product you can from it. If the weed is fucking old and gross, see, I'm sorry. Oh, your weed's all good. The living soil guy. The living soil guy's like, what the fuck? What could you possibly? Because there's no turkeys, man.

2:44:38SpeakerIf that's why, then okay. Listen, I even loved your sound of disappointment.

2:44:44MurphyYeah, you get those degradation components. You know, when you go from like the wax that's the cuticle of the terpene to like these degraded, fatty, acidy oil things that are, like I said, sometimes it's like truly fermenting in those final jars. And so I'm going to get I'm going to skim the cream. And then I'm going to go back into the best of the rest later.

2:45:09BubblemanSo I don't know a ton about the media. I really just kind of met the media bros recently and was talking to Adam about them a little bit. But is there a big difference between these powdered and granulated mediums? Like what? This is just for, I guess it quickens the process or something or?

2:45:25MurphyThey all do it different. If you were to think of them in the way that you think of your different bubble bags can target a different trichome size. Each media could be designed to target a different chemical category, particle size. You know, they could have a different pH, which is going to have a different, you know, kind of reactivity. There's they could each their individual tools in a sense.

2:45:51MurphyAnd sometimes they're used together with intention and sometimes Not, and sometimes that intention is to, you know, give us trash to gold, and sometimes it's to analyze or purify. But they are, you know, even when they are similar, they're extremely unique. You know, it's kind of like someone brought up the W1 earlier, which is not the same as, you know, just an alumina or a clay that's been ground to a specific size.

2:46:19MurphyEach of them can be really, really uniquely applied.

2:46:24BubblemanOkay, interesting.

2:46:25MurphyOr used frivolously, you know.

2:46:27BubblemanOr used frivolously. Well, that's what I, it was interesting to hear Jorge talking about how it was like, yeah, when we started using it, we just used it like in small amounts. And he's like, the kind of problem was people came in and were like,

2:46:39Speakeryou know just stripped everything out of there kind of thing so like i said i don't have a huge uh experience with this it's definitely interesting to talk about though plays clays are layered silicates okay so unlike silica gel which is just silica particles right macroporous silica particles right which are the same kinds of things that are In some HPLC columns, most HPLCs are running what's called reverse phase.

2:47:05SpeakerAnd so they actually have a fat soluble moiety that holds onto the compounds and separates the compounds all based on polarity. But, but silicates are just, yeah, there's a variety of different kinds. There's actually nano silicates called halocyte, but yeah, betonite clays are just, they're layered silicates. And so in between the layers of silica, you could basically trap all kinds of compounds. It's typically based on the size of the compound, whether or not it could fit in the interstitial space between the layered silicates.

2:47:39SpeakerSometimes you'll hear about exfoliated clays. What exfoliated clays are is when they peel away those layers to basically make non-layered silicate. But yeah, so anyway, a little chemistry on silicates.

2:47:58BubblemanAppreciate it, Mark.

2:48:00SpeakerAsk a chemistry question to a chemist, you're going to get a chemistry answer, right?

2:48:04BubblemanYeah, I played the Media Bros little video while you were doing it. I'm like getting all fancy over here with my hash church. But no, I appreciate the conversation today. You also have your hand raised, but I guess you've already spoke. So we'll go back to Jorge, who has his hand up again. Go ahead, Jorge.

2:48:23SpeakerYeah, I did want to kind of touch on the media too. It's kind of like, I like to look at it like Photoshop. So you have all these tools on the left side, you know, and each one of these medias, because they're different in pH or structure, like bentonites, like I guess like a generic word for clays, there's like kaolinites, mectite, had a pull guide, like, and all these are going to pull or have like a stronger affinity for something else than the other, you know?

2:48:47SpeakerSo once you understand all these things and test them and know, How they work, you can basically have like your arsenal of tools like Murphy was saying and come in with a purpose. So if you're going to say crystallized, the reason like W1 would work is because it's acidic. So once you turn the solution acidic, the extract is going to crystallize a lot better. versus something that's say basic or neutral and same thing so just depends on your purpose if your purpose is to bleach then and you have something that's higher in contamination then you would go for something that's more acidic and vice versa you know what i mean so these are all just basically tools and we should get like more knowledgeable on them to be able to uh basically perform better like crc extracts instead of just coming in and stripping everything I think there's a huge opportunity for education here because what I'm seeing in the market is mostly people want like the easy button and not a lot of extractors want to learn or like really have that much expertise in like what are the use cases of each of these different compounds and how to kind of use them with precision.

2:49:57SpeakerSo a lot of the time it's just like the goal is just to lighten the color or to have a consistent marketable color. For the product. And so they're just looking for like fast flow so that it doesn't slow down their extraction process. And they're just running everything through CRC as just kind of like the standard operating procedure, because a lot of this is kind of like top down, you know, from management type of thing, like directives and not necessarily coming from like where Murphy's coming from with like precision and like science.

2:50:30SpeakerYeah, absolutely.

2:50:30MurphyBut I had to overly invest in that too. I think part of this comes from if I might not see my potency change at all, only my yield going in and out of a specific media. And so if that's the only number I can measure is potency in terpenes, which we know aren't going to be impacted by specific medias, then how do I measure That change in the flavor, positive or negative, you know, we need a data point.

2:50:59MurphyWe all need to start sending samples to Marshall, maybe, you know, something.

2:51:04BubblemanWell, well, the man with all the flavors has his hand up. So what do you have to say about that?

2:51:09SpeakerSo I just wanted to add and point out a couple of things. So like I said before, CRC is a good tool and you really need to know This this kind of goes back to the grow things like if you know the strains that you're growing incredibly well, you can adjust appropriately to what individual powders that you're trying to use to do like their individual job. And what I mean by that is like I've had friends of mine that have come to me where we've run their extract before and it's It's strain specific, but some of them are so overwhelming with the terpenes in their HT and everything that they almost need a light CRC.

2:51:52SpeakerAnd finding that right media, which doesn't muddle... The big problem with the CRC thing is that if, like you guys were saying, if you strip it too much, strip everything away, the taste is awful or bland or not there whatsoever. So... Knowing the cultivar and knowing what individual CRC powder does, you can play that to your advantage. I have gotten to the point where I don't CRC anything myself because I found the sweet spot on where to take down the plant where it was at their peak within a couple of days.

2:52:25SpeakerUm, a friend of mine gave me a little hint on that, that you, we did do analytical testing to find when a certain cannabinoid dropped to a certain percent was at the peak of the strain. So doing that, and then, like I said, running stuff for other people, um, when, when the Terps are overwhelming can still, I mean, no one will know that it will see our seed if they've, if they've done a good job and use the appropriate amount of powders.

2:52:49SpeakerI think they get misused and that's what screwed everything up in the industry.

2:52:54BubblemanJust like everything, right? It's just always the same thing. You start out in this sort of ignorance and then you gain knowledge and sometimes that can lead you into bias. And then as you gain your experience, you sort of realize, oh, maybe staying more over in the center and gaining information All around me is a better idea than, well, I mean, I was completely insane. I was just like, I was convinced everyone just had to have full melt bubble.

2:53:21BubblemanI just was like, of course you have to have this. This is the best. This is the best because that's what I thought. And then I'd meet people and they were like, no, this is the best. And I'd be like... How can you even say that? And, you know, you just get over your own, like, narcissism, dude. Like, just let people have what they want to have and let people explore.

2:53:40BubblemanAnd at this point in time, I saw my affinity for cannabis and cannabis extractions. I just think it all has its place. It's all a journey. It's all pathways. And the more we explore and the more we uncover... Because like Murphy said, like, we don't really do new shit. It takes a long time. We got to do, it's kind of like fish when they would say, I think Paige was interviewed and the lady was like, why would you jam for 42 minutes?

2:54:06BubblemanAnd he's like, well, because so I could hear like the 43rd minute. You can't get to the 43rd minute of jamming without doing the other 42 minutes. You don't get to hop, skip over the jam. The jam is the journey. And so I guess that's true for cannabis. And it's interesting because I see it with cannabis that she doesn't necessarily want people to cut corners and find tricks.

2:54:30BubblemanShe's always just like, no, it's going to be you just have to. I think the day we stop trying to get cannabis to bend the knee to us will be the day that we truly find success with our relationship with cannabis. Because Prohibition tried to get cannabis to bend the knee and it did not work out, let me tell you. Money was spent, people were jailed, lives were ruined, and here we are all these years later.

2:54:56BubblemanThank God we have an industry and we can talk about this. Go ahead, Mark. You look like you're anxious to say something and happy and purple. Yeah.

2:55:02SpeakerI just realized who JM is. So is that John Mark?

2:55:06JmWhat the... Hey, John, how are you?

2:55:09SpeakerGood to see you. So I don't know if our Hash Church audience will remember, but when I went to visit Indra in 2017, I think...

2:55:20SpeakerJohn got inspired and came down to Andrew's too. So we actually met, I think, through a hash church connection.

2:55:28JmYou were the first PhD that I had met that wakes up with a bong rip.

2:55:37SpeakerWell, that was fun. And we have to thank John for hosting us. We had a nice session. Danny was there. Danny from Kurova, who I think has been on the show before. But I think Marcus, didn't we do an episode from John's place there? I think maybe I think we did.

2:55:56BubblemanIt's possible. It's all muddled and fuddled in my brain. We've got like hundreds of these episodes under the belt at this point in time.

2:56:02SpeakerSo it's kind of hard to remember eight years ago, right? Yeah, exactly. Marcus, that was eight years ago. Yes, John. I just want to mention one more thing before I sign off because I'm running out of gas here. I was in the hospital all day yesterday. My blood sugar spiked to 500 and it was a very difficult time for me. I only managed to survive it by the hair of my chinny chin chin.

2:56:29SpeakerBut what I wanted to mention that one of the ways of Choosing how your extraction happens is I used to run a coil from the isobutane and I would hover it in a bucket so that I could get the overhead of the liquid nitrogen to cool the gas to various temperatures. And by doing this, I managed to extract the very lightest things first. And so anyway, it's just, I don't know if anybody's going to do it.

2:57:07SpeakerWhat is the CRC, the air conditioning stuff?

2:57:12JmThe magic dirt. It's the magic dirt.

2:57:15SpeakerAncient chromatography. Okay. It's just column chromatography. That's all, John. All right. Well, anyway, I just wanted to mention that that was a method that I had developed and used. Hi, Johnny.

2:57:30JmAnd glad you're well.

2:57:34SpeakerYeah. Good to see you, Johnny. It's been a few years. Much love. Somebody say hi to ATN. Hello, ATN. How are you, my brother? Long time no see.

2:57:44Etienne FontanGlad to see you're alive.

2:57:46SpeakerAlive and well. I'm going to visit your pot shop when I come down to get my teeth fixed by the VA. So I'll be there to wave at you in person. But anyway, you guys, I'm worn out. So I'm going to sign off for the day.

2:58:03BubblemanWell, thanks for being alive, Indra, and sorry for telling people that you were not alive. And wow, I didn't get to see it, but people were freaking out in the chat when I said I'm going to bring someone back to life, and you came on.

2:58:19SpeakerWell, you got that rumor from my son who's lost to meth.

2:58:24BubblemanWell, we'll hope for the best for Johnny Starr. And hopefully, you know what? We say it the same as with oil and everything else in our life. Fuck, sometimes we just got to make big mistakes to learn big things. And we'll pray that Johnny Starr is going to learn from this experience and come out of it. But we're really glad to see you, dude. And we're glad that you're alive.

2:58:49BubblemanAnd we'll be seeing you again sooner than later. Thanks for coming on, Indra.

2:58:54SpeakerIt was my pleasure. And hello to everybody who I didn't say hello to. And I love you all.

2:59:03SpeakerThis is Sam speaking. Take care, old friend. This is Dr. Mark.

2:59:12SpeakerI'm doing my best. I'm trying to stay alive.

2:59:16BubblemanAren't we all? Keep doing it, brother. Keep doing it. Awesome. All right, well, I feel like... Goodbye, brother. Oh, Yari. Yari had his hand up. Sorry, Yari. I'm trying to keep it all together here.

2:59:30SpeakerHey, JM, does your company build those membrane filtration systems?

2:59:35JmYep.

2:59:36SpeakerAnd you guys are in Washington?

2:59:39JmOregon.

2:59:40SpeakerOregon?

2:59:41JmI'm here near Portland.

2:59:42SpeakerHave you guys used those with psilocybin extract?

2:59:48JmUnofficially... I know someone who has.

2:59:51SpeakerBecause I was talking to you at Sambo Creek about that because like that's the one bottleneck that people are starting to see is the solvent recovery.

3:00:01JmOh, with solvent recovery, yeah. I mean, that's like the one thing that, you know, nanofiltration does very easily across the board that you can. You know, be fully competent, plug and play, no issues or challenges. Because, you know, we're working with natural products here, so the composition can vary quite a bit.

3:00:22MaxTotally.

3:00:23JmAnd the other interesting thing with the mushrooms, you know, is the sugars, right? Yeah. And getting a more concentrated extract, you know, away from those sugars. And there's tricks that can be done that the membranes also come in handy with to remove those to a great degree. But, you know, that's nothing that we've worked on.

3:00:48JmOkay.

3:00:49SpeakerWell, I might like to talk to you outside of the chat about that because I'm pretty interested.

3:00:57BubblemanYeah. Yeah, I'll make sure that you guys all have access to one another, particularly just, you know, if there's one particular or two particular or whatever you need, just email me and I'll make sure that you have the right email for the right person.

3:01:11MurphyYeah, I will say there's, there's quite a few membranes that are used even in like preparatory chemistry for like analysis that are for like removing sugars and fats specifically. And I've used quite a few of those with mushroom extracts in an effort to test them because it's, Not great, you know, like I just won't even put a chocolate bar in my HPLC column anymore. Like you can just fucking ask somebody else to do it because I'm not gonna, you know, be the one.

3:01:45MurphyAnd so there's quite a few membranes that you can get for that. What I like about that is you can get those in like you know almost syringe size um or like little cup size you know um so you can do little samples before you go and get the big system so you can figure out where you really do have to scale because some of the good ones for solvent want you to have a pretty clean product and there's a lot of oily fats in some of these mushrooms too which is

3:02:12SpeakerAnd that's why I asked because it's such a more difficult oil to work with because like I've heard of people doing following films with them and then it completely clogged their mind.

3:02:21MurphyI've made a lot of cement, you know, liquid cement and I don't know what, you know.

3:02:26BubblemanYou guys know Coleman Shapiro?

3:02:29MurphyYep.

3:02:30BubblemanYeah, he seems to be having a lot of fun doing that all these days. Cordyceps extracts.

3:02:35MurphyBut yeah, a lot of people are out there clogging the bottom of their filter reactor, you know, just, you know, trying our best. And one thing I'd love to know, and maybe, you know, Jay, I could work on this, is maybe we could make those membranes out of a mushroom derived product so they could be more affordable to fuck with. Help us out, man.

3:02:57JmLike it just grows, like the mushroom just grows on the permeate tube and I mean, that's how we got it.

3:03:05MurphyWe stripped it from the membrane. You could grow a more intentional one.

3:03:10JmThat'd be dope.

3:03:14MurphyProbably grow it right in the housing.

3:03:17BubblemanYeah, that's what I'm saying. That'd be sick. Well, I think it's time for a dab. What's everyone puffing on? I just smashed some Event Horizon for my last dab. I think I'm going to hit some Masterpiece 90 Micron First Wash Melt. Sounds like a decent.

3:03:33SpeakerI'm not even trying to plug this, but I don't know if you guys have ever smoked out of an Indux. Oh, yeah.

3:03:40MurphyI have an Indux, the big table one.

3:03:42SpeakerMurphy, do you have the bird, the new one?

3:03:46MurphyI don't have a new one. I have like a... Maybe one of the first like commercial versions. It's like a record player. I have like, I went on Amazon and bought like a whole roll of tubing so I could just like throw them away carelessly. Because in science, you just, you know, disposable plastic is part of the job somehow.

3:04:08BubblemanIt's a killer unit.

3:04:10MurphyIt really, it's too much work, you know, like I need it built into a whole table for that.

3:04:15BubblemanIt's for sensory science. That's for having friends over to do sensory science. Like that is exactly what that is for. I will say, and nice to see Sam lighten up the card and I'll let everyone tell what they're going to puff on. But I got, I got this Dr. Dabber Switch 2 recently and I didn't realize it's an induction unit. This thing is actually pretty ridiculous. I was surprised.

3:04:39BubblemanI mean, it's heavy duty. It's not like a little small portable unit, even though I've literally carried like elite motherships around in Pelican cases onto the Blackcomb Mountain to rip dabs while I'm snowboarding in the middle of the day or take out on my sled. Thank you for watching.

3:05:10BubblemanObviously, induction heat is kind of, as long as it's delicate induction heat, I will say I don't know a ton about it, but I do know that I have probably nine different units, including Riley's Indux Labs unit, as well as iSpire, the one Luna gave me in Berlin, and a variety of other units. There are some that are just too much. They just, their lowest tap when they start is, is just way too high but like the index labs and as well as this unit i can turn it down so low that i can take rips of my dabs and have them taste different like really different uh with the low to the medium to the high i feel like marshall's like ready to say something he's like turned his camera on he's like what are we talking about sensory science here i got some to say i got a phd go ahead marshall

3:06:03SpeakerOh, yeah, just in general. I mean, it's so almost all the work I did in the hop industry was connecting the sensory, the analytical work for beers and hops and hop extracts and things. And so it's fun to be able to work in Canada's world as well. I'm working with mostly hemp, so I can't even imagine, you know, what we could do getting hands on good, real material like you guys have.

3:06:26SpeakerSo.

3:06:28MurphyIt's just a messier output, you know? Like, I thought having a GCMS would be cool, and it turns out it's just work. Like, you feel no progress ever. You just start, you know, you stop running it longer. You're like, because it'll keep, shit will keep showing up. You're never done. So, you know, it's... It's really cool science, but it is really hard work to break those compounds all the way down in a way to analyze them.

3:06:55MurphyAnd what's tough is that our ability to perceive it, you know, is a lot more sensitive. So it's like these really complex analytical instruments still can't tell apart the like, you know, that black pepper versus the white pepper in a way that we can. And I'm like, damn, you know, we really are still pretty far from Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:07:47JmYou know, and you're right about, you know, the sensory aspect. And that is the most important. Actually, I got what I call the gusto factometry. So when we're dabbing, I call that gusto factometry. You know, gusto, flavor like the food stuff, you know, the olfacts, you know, factometry. So yeah, everybody there, you've got a gusto factometer in your house. Already the most sensitive analytical instruments. And yeah, you got to test stuff for quality.

3:08:21JmIt's important because there's all flavors. I mean, we all know the issue with like possible contaminants that even rec labs aren't able to test for or don't know to test for, but you might can taste it before, you know, anything. So important to try your dash. I'm interested about this index though, because I've, It's not a cheap instrument. You know, that's probably the most fancy guts of that commenter out there.

3:08:48JmDo you find that the Dr. Dabber that is, Marcus, is it similar in giving you that lower temp range if you want it?

3:08:58BubblemanIt's not as broad, but there's at least a nice enough sliver that makes it so nice to have at your tabletop. The index is like an invite. That's like in high school when you set up the Dungeon and Dragons table and invited your buddies over. This is not a thing you just do on the random. This is some shit you prepare for. This is like, hey, we're going to do sensory science with my buddies.

3:09:20BubblemanWe'll be able to test it at such low temperatures that you're... You know, you're kind of ripping monos more so than anything. And then you can go through into the sesquiterpenoids and get into these completely different flavor profiles. And they fucking hide each other from one another. You know, like there's a reason why we cure the monos out in flour because you get this kind of like, oh, it doesn't smell that good sometimes.

3:09:44BubblemanAnd then you cure that out. And now this new bouquet has arisen underneath, you know, the one that is volatized off. So that in itself, Thank you for joining us.

3:10:16BubblemanIt was just all about that flavor profile and what you how well you could get the flavor from the plant profile to be like the same, but just completely concentrated to a point where it's, you know, mind numbing. Tell a why don't you go ahead, you had your hand up.

3:10:34SpeakerSo this is something I think a lot of BHO people can notice just from leaving products in a vacuum and doing some tests with a vacuum and just smoking it. It's something that you notice like every once in a while. You've got some things that are just really blow out. All of these are really top end sort of on the spectrum. And if you vacuum longer, you lose some of that perceptual masking and you open up some of the heavier terpenes that just get blown out by these things that kind of blow out your senses, but don't translate one to one.

3:11:13SpeakerTo like the tongue and olfactory experience. And that's something I've definitely noticed from the vacuum. And that sometimes like, especially if I'm entering something for a contest, you know, I'm going to hit it and maybe vac it, try vaccing some of it a little bit longer to see what happens to it and see, you know, like, okay, if we take some of the top end off, will it, will it open up?

3:11:35SpeakerAnd can we get some more out of this? Or is this just sort of a very top end, you know, high pitch kind of spectrum?

3:11:44BubblemanHey, Marshall, I wonder if you had any insights on maybe some things like the way, you know, Murphy Murr said, like, we're all going to be doing the same things. Well, have people like maybe we should be following a little closer behind the hops industry because you got the amount of millions of dollars. Like we talk about how expensive this work is and how cannabis has really only done a fraction of the work that needs to be done because we're still fighting margins and racing to the bottom to To create our industry, but beer has a foot in the door.

3:12:14BubblemanIt has money to invest. The hops industry is fucking big. And so do you see any advantages to, you know, some of that stuff that was done to hops with hops in the analytical labs being able to translate over to cannabis and help our industry?

3:12:31SpeakerYeah, absolutely. In fact, that's kind of how I ended up here was we had all that analytical equipment, right? I learned a lot about these compounds. There's a huge overlap between hops and cannabis. I mean, obviously when you go and ferment, Beer, there's another gigantic range of things that come into play for changing the flavor and the aroma. But yeah, I mean, it's not that difficult, but analytically, our noses are better for very specific components, right?

3:12:59SpeakerBecause sulfur compounds, the phials are tens of thousands of times more potent per molecule than almost all of the monoterpenes or sesquiterpenes. Right. And that's where you get these really crazy aromas like burnt rubber or armpit. Right there. Those are the files over concentrated. And the other class compounds in here are the aldehydes. And these are ones that unfortunately that a lot of the bad aromas you don't want that you want to remediate.

3:13:28SpeakerIn fact, bentonite clay specifically binds selectively binds aldehydes. And that's part of why it does some remediation on older material. But analytically, they're difficult. And that's where I've loved to see what I've learned is that you've got to trust your nose and your equipment if you know how to do it. And you've got to know the limitations of your equipment and your nose, right? The sulfur compounds will blow out your ability to smell the rest of the stuff that's there.

3:13:52SpeakerAnd this is where the aging and all the curing really comes into play and how you're doing that. Because they have different oxidation timeframes for a breakdown or volatilization. So pulling vacuum or heating it again, doing all these things are going to adjust the relative concentrations and then give you that aroma profile that you want from it. And that's where honestly making concentrates and extracts and things can be tricky.

3:14:19SpeakerYou can actually take something that's beautiful and turn it into burnt rubber. Right, because you've now over-concentrated a bunch of stuff in there that's great, and now you've got to burn it off a little bit to get it back to where you want it. So, if nothing else, I've learned a ton from the work that I did there because we had the equipment and we had the money and the time to spend doing this.

3:14:39SpeakerAnd we had a 25-person trained sensory panel to compare the sensory work with the analytical results that we were getting from the lab. And then we had the lab equipment where we could analyze all these things. So I would love to be able to do that same work in this industry. Again, it's about finding the equipment, finding the places where we can do this stuff because it's been not allowed for so long.

3:15:05BubblemanI think that's a part of it for sure. And I think we're going to be able to help you with that by having you back on the show and maybe doing a specific show on. And, you know, I was thinking this would be part of the Aromatic Volatile Compound Show, but perhaps it's focused more on what we, the cannabis industry, can learn from the hops industry that had a 25 team sensory group.

3:15:29BubblemanTo learn about those SOPs on how to run a proper sensory team, on how to, first of all, I mean, Nick's told me this from day one, look, step one is you have to find out what your blind spots are. You need to identify what your blind spots are. What can't you perceive, right? It's not that easy to figure out, but you need to figure it out.

3:15:50BubblemanAnd then the other one was sort of like, what are you perceiving in more of a hyper manner than what the rest of the group is? It's a little above, you know, that middle bar. You're hyper perceiving certain things where you're like, oh my God, can you guys smell that? And everyone else is like, no, I don't smell it the way you do. So we kind of got into those two things.

3:16:10BubblemanAnd I thought, man, this is a really interesting conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:16:39BubblemanThat people love worldwide. And it has these different shared. I mean, God, it's a there's relations, for goodness sake.

3:16:45Etienne FontanSo bring in Rob and Mojave. They've been writing articles on, of course, on hops, which is absolutely fascinating because, of course, we've seen, you know, diseases cross, right? Hop late by right. Right. Comes from hops. Which is fascinating because when I was at the Cannabis Germ Plasm Institute from the USDA in Geneva, New York last year, there's a section in between when there was the huge homogenous field that was growing 517 different ascensions plus the males with it.

3:17:21Etienne FontanBut there was a row that we went through and they were growing hops on purpose. So that I thought was rather fascinating. So I plan to talk to Larry Smart and them and ask them more about that crossover because they're already looking at it at the USDA level.

3:17:39BubblemanJohn has his hand up.

3:17:40Etienne FontanDo you want to go ahead, John?

3:17:42JmYeah, I just wanted to say, one, I envy the beer industry for how much further ahead they are than our industry in terms of what we're talking about here. We've got a long ways to go. And one critical difference, and this ties back into discussions that were happening earlier, between the two industries right now is there is a huge lack of public consumption. You know what I'm saying?

3:18:12JmLike legal public consumption with beer, you can go to a bar and get served up and try all sorts of beers that you would never go buy just a six pack of to try, right? You can try single. Nothing like that really exists, at least here in Oregon and most of the U.S. for hashless. And that's going to affect too, you know, what the consumer, the retail side is, you know, demanding.

3:18:39JmAnd I find that there's a lot of people That just have not experienced a proper death and aren't going to go and throw a bunch of money at a gram that they've never tried before. God forbid they can't even smell it before they buy it. And I think that's going to be a critical piece to lifting all this forward. Yeah, absolutely.

3:19:02MurphyThat's why we keep repeating the cycle, you know, because no one in a new state can do anything other than see it on Instagram. They don't know what they're looking for. They're using all the data they have and it's basically none.

3:19:13JmExactly.

3:19:16Etienne FontanWell, in California, they've just allowed food in dispensaries besides, you know, for the first time ever. So I would expect to see some pairings starting to happen, you know, some chefs and more of that starting to happen because, you know, more legitimacy to take place as well as I would anticipate a rise in dad bars. But the problem with dad bars is the individual who thinks they have the tolerance to handle it.

3:19:44Etienne FontanAnd those are the people who we have to call the ambulance for because they literally pass out from being too high.

3:19:50BubblemanThis is where that proper SOP comes in for sensory experience of extracts. This is the importance of like creating this voice of authority. And it's, you know, it's, it's so important. And it's kind of, yeah, I just... I hate to hear people having bad experiences. Please go ahead.

3:20:10JmWith that in the, are you able to, you know, at the lower end of the heat range, are you able to generate a vapor that is mostly flavor and less cannabinoid? 100%.

3:20:24Bubbleman100%.

3:20:24JmBecause that's the thing, like, you know, I envision, you know, the wine and cheese level of hashish someday where people who aren't really, you know, Aaron Ward, Cannabis users are able to appreciate the wide, wide range of flavors this plant can produce. And if you're not a dabber and you take even a small dab, you're going to, you're not going to be able to enjoy the second.

3:20:51JmSo, you know, wondering how do we, you know, someday be able to allow people to enjoy the palate. That have no tolerance.

3:21:01BubblemanAnd even myself, dude. This is the work that Dr. Mark Lewis and Chimera did at Napro, which was to go through and produce type two plants that are not high in THCA and to create all the flavor profiles that are available in type one plants and make them available in CBD. Shanti Baba has been selling CBD like cigarettes in like the grocery stores in Switzerland for like, I want to say 20 years, but maybe it's been longer now.

3:21:30BubblemanSo there is a whole world out there that just wants to enjoy the flavors of cannabis. And I think Napro is probably ahead of the game in regards to producing cannabis You know, cultivars that it goes to kind of speaking like, you know, it's the same with edibles, right? Like if you're going to have or these dinner pairings that Etienne just mentioned, if you're going to have these types of dinner pairings, you better be down in the one milligram range of So this is the delicate nature of people's different endocannabinoid systems and the signaling system and how it interacts.

3:22:11BubblemanIt's just, it's a delicate game that we're going to have to figure out over time. Murphy had her hand up, so I want to go to her.

3:22:19MurphyYeah, I just didn't want to lose the train of thought there on, like, I always tell people I'm not a grower, right? Like, I'm an extractor. And it's not because I don't know how to grow. I grow a lot of stuff, actually. I'm, you know, well known for my aloe, as you guys have heard. But, you know, I always say I'm not a grower because the way that, you know, growers have to approach problems is long term.

3:22:47MurphyYou know, I'm complaining about the time it takes to run a GC. It takes way longer to grow a new strain to phenohunt something, you know, worth having. And so it's really cool that people are trying to cultivate the lower potency and deliver that flavor profile. But it's also exactly the job that everyone on this call is supposed to be capable of. Like every single one of us could just get the flavor out, you know, and so You know, it's easy to blame the consumer for focusing too much on THC, but none of us sell our byproducts.

3:23:24Murphyhow many people are out there buying cocoa butter and winterizing under the same roof throwing away waxes and buying waxes and shipping it like we're crazy we have so much byproducts that we used to promote cannabis and hemp for legalization and then forgot about when we started manufacturing every single one of us could be We're producing those byproduct flavors from our current supply. And if we worked with hemp instead of against it, we could deliver those breeding experiences, but we could also manufacture that.

3:24:02MurphyAnd I think that's where if the market that doesn't want to get too high could dab, they'd be on our team. That's our fault. We gave everyone Thank you so much for joining us.

3:24:32BubblemanYeah, let's destroy them with a 900 degree half gram dab. It was just like, oh my God, what were we doing? Just putting ourselves back like 10, 15, 20 years. It'll be fine. I agree. I think the ability to create a proper You know, like for me, I've created it for myself. I give people dabs all the time. I give elderly people dabs that have never dabbed like in their 80s and 90s.

3:24:57BubblemanAnd what I do and the only way I've been able to do it because and I'm pretty articulate. But even if the dabber is is even just like a titanium dabber dabber like this, it's too big. You need a pin. And then you really at first, that little pin drop is really about getting them over the fear of, and also you got to get rid of the blowtorch.

3:25:21BubblemanThat blowtorch is, it's freaking people out. Nobody wants to see it. It scares people. It's not cool. So, you know, shout out to companies like Like Puffco and Carta and Dr. Dabber and Indux for creating products that allow us to try these products, to try these extracts in the first place. Because, you know, to make an extract like that and then just be like, how are you smoking it?

3:25:44BubblemanOh, I'm just going to roll it up in a joint, man. It's like, oh my God, like just stab me through the heart.

3:25:49MurphyThat's how I always felt when I- Or burn it in a cartridge.

3:25:52BubblemanThat's the way it really hits my heart. Yeah, that's a harder one too. So it is what it is. But yeah, it's- I kind of lost my train of thought there, but... Sam's got his hand waving. Please, Sam.

3:26:05SpeakerI wanted to mention that when we did the analysis in 2000 with a team of subjects, we used an organoleptic survey with about 100 questions. That might be interesting. The other thing is that I do have one of those induction pipes. And I'll tell you, that absolutely gives me the best taste of any hits I've ever had. But that's only the first half of the hits. The last half of the hits just tastes like any other pipe.

3:26:50BubblemanYeah, it's definitely for extracting the flavor profile. It's like a night, like to me, it's an incredible tool for breeders. If you want to get to know your flavors and you want to get to know your bouquets and how they sit on top of one another, it's a, it's a rabbit hole that is well worth going down. And it's a tool that I'm personally surprised hasn't been more, more tuned because, you know, there's amazing machines, proton NMR and gas chromatograph, but there's also this thing called the olfactory.

3:27:18BubblemanAnd it's quite an amazing piece of equipment that really puts those other pieces of equipment borderline to shame. So use yours. Bioassay. It's important. It's valuable. There's definite value in bioassay and sharing your experiences with people. So I love the science aspect of it. I don't necessarily treat it as much like the word of God because I also like the personal experience of what the person has gone through and whatnot.

3:27:46BubblemanSo...

3:27:48Etienne FontanSo what you touched on is something that Is a problem that we deal with every single day in dispensaries is they come across this concentrates and they're like, well, how do I use it? Right. That is still a huge learning curve for somebody because I originally came to concentrates back in 2010 or so. I was already using water hash, but I was seeing people buying BHO and other things and using it.

3:28:18Etienne FontanAnd I was asking, well, why are you using this? And Murphy, it is medically, you know, it still is medically useful and people do use it as medicine. So I was watching older patients buying these expensive little jars and those that knew how to, because originally people were just dropping the hash butane oil onto a coal, right? Once the coal had a burn off, right? And then the titanium swings came in and then, Titanium, you know, you had the female and male, you know, basically steps in the direction of easier usage.

3:29:00Etienne FontanBut it hasn't been until recently that there have been electronic entry points. But even then, for somebody who's new to concentrates, oh, now I have to buy something to use this because, yes, my torch scares the living shit out of everybody every time I use it. And they're terrified, but now you've got things. I'm using the denail heater, right? Which is just a strictly convection heater that heats my tool exactly to how I want it.

3:29:31Etienne FontanBut that's not an easy or cheap expense. So as you... You're professionals here. How do you teach people the most an easiest entry point as opposed to, you know, telling them to roll it into a snake is its own challenge and then putting into a joint. Good luck with that and crumbling it in they put too much in and then they're overdosing. So how do you help people dip their toe into the water?

3:30:00SpeakerPuffco is usually the best way, in my opinion. Just because like, like, like you guys were saying before, the torch scares the shit out of a lot of people. But you can hand, you know, a Puffco with the right amount of concentrate in it to, you know, your girlfriend's dad, and he can rip that and it's opens like a whole new experience for him. So that's what I've seen, personally, at least.

3:30:25BubblemanYeah, and the fancy lights, you know, that people are like, what's that you got there, old boy? Go ahead, Murphy.

3:30:33MurphyI just think it's definitely an education thing, but we need to follow suit with other industries. And so, you know, when I think about the type of glass you're supposed to drink wine out of, And the shape of it and the length of it and the type of glass you're supposed to drink scotch out of, you know, and so you can drink it out of literally whatever cup you want.

3:30:57MurphySure. You don't have to buy a puff coat. You don't have to buy an induction heater. You don't have to stay plugged into the wall. I have like a little laser one. I finally got one that I can dab with a laser. I'm delighted by it. But like all of this requires an investment. And so it is a barrier to entry. However, for a medical product, I think there's a good justification for that, which is that if you want accurate dosing, you need accurate temperature control.

3:31:24Murphyand you know there's a lot to it when when we're dabbing we're distilling and if the condensing arm on my distillation unit is a different size a different angle a different temperature if the vacuum is operating at a different depth or cfm you know i'm gonna get a different separation and experience and the same would be true for the way that you're dabbing and we could talk about it in that really Thank you so much for joining us.

3:32:10MurphyAmy Van Dyken, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD,

3:32:31MurphyYou know, we let the tobacco industry sort of infiltrate, you know, and it didn't work out for the cigarette manufacturers either. It was easy. It wasn't even affordable at first. That's the thing. The original vape pens were expensive. I really didn't believe it was going to work. And I've never been more wrong about anything in cannabis. So I've been working personally really hard on infusing joints. In a way that works because pre-rolls are gross.

3:33:04MurphyThey don't have a shelf life. And the best way to improve them is to fill them up with concentrate. And so, you know, if I can use the right type of concentrate to insulate the flower and preserve the flavor, there's a chance. And that gives me the portability and the potency that a cart could. But I think back to this conversation we've been having all along about potency, if we get away from trying to deliver the most THC at a time, we could make it more affordable.

3:33:33MurphyI don't know if you guys remember the little ceramic things that you could inject distillate into. Yeah, that wasn't the right solution, but it was a direction that like, Like, why didn't we deliver shatter in dab sizes? Why did we make it in irregular sticky shapes wadded up in paper? We're doing ridiculous things sometimes.

3:33:55BubblemanFor slab dabs. You couldn't have had slab dabs if you did that. Even I was impressed with slab dabs.

3:34:03MurphySo, you know, to that end, we don't make it easy for us to handle in the lab or for the consumer. It does require some investment, but technology has never been cheaper. people who are approaching dabs today it has never been more accessible because the cost for me to buy a titanium nail and the blow torch attachment for the big old map gas can at home depot is the same as what it cost me for a 200 little laser device like i spent wait do i don't want to know the amount of money I invested in metal dabbing things that I dabbed out of a lot of times in my life.

3:34:42MurphySo, you know, I think people are willing to make the investment. What is the tool you're using, Murphy? This is, so I forget the name of the overall company, but if you see, like, it's got a laser. And so you put a dab in it like you would with a Puffco. And it will create the vapor. I don't know if I can get it really close, but you can see.

3:35:04MurphyWho makes that? The dab and the vapor.

3:35:06BubblemanLaser dabs. Lumen.

3:35:08SpeakerThose laser ones are great.

3:35:10BubblemanLaser dabs.

3:35:12SpeakerI've got one of those for herb and hash.

3:35:14BubblemanYeah. See, some type of device like that is sort of key. I mean, obviously, I think the oil community is definitely grown, like the customer base from the cart, like people making carts has really like made oil spread and become very oil spread, pun intended. It's made it more mainstream, like a lot of people have tried the carts. Now, the question was from Etienne, you know, what are you guys doing to sort of educate or to create your customer base?

3:35:45BubblemanAnd if you're not liking the carts, I get it. It's kind of, it is what it is. It's definitely a way to fund your company if you want to do R&D and find other pathways, if you can do nice carts and make them available, people are always going to love them. What I was going to say is though, so what I did though, Etienne, from my brand, Thank you so much for joining us.

3:36:26BubblemanThank you for joining us.

3:36:46BubblemanYou know, the majority of the industry in both the US and Canada are pre-rolled joints. That is like, that's like a massive, if you can pull from the pre-rolled joint group market, that is like one of the biggest market shares in cannabis. And so I was like, I want those people to experience a dab. However, they're not going to, it's not... Like for many reasons that have already been mentioned on this panel, it's just not going to happen.

3:37:13BubblemanOh yeah, just go buy a $500 Puffco and then yeah, make sure you buy the right rosin or bubble hash. And oh, you better get like a proper dabber. Oh, you don't have a dabber? Well, you're going to need one. You won't be able to get it out of the jar. And suddenly they're just like $18,000 in. They've got a JP Toro banger and a banger bucket and a basket and all of this stuff.

3:37:35BubblemanAnd it's a lot of stuff to have. I wanted to build a bridge with a product that I could turn people on who are smoking joints. And there was now infused joints were just coming when I created this product. But I created this little product called Hash Hits. And it's really like a simple little box, like, you know, a little box with these little paper tubes. And we use ceramic bowls now, but we originally had stainless steel bowls.

3:38:01BubblemanAnd we would just put like 0.2 of a gram of hash in there and you'd get like 10 rips out of it. And when I was when I was first creating this product, like I was creating it for a customer base, I hadn't burned anything in like over 20 years. I had only vaporized hash, melty six star hash for like 20 years. So imagine where my palate is.

3:38:21BubblemanWhen I'm like, okay, I'm going to try and smoke some hash. So I, the first bit I smoked, it was very, I was just like, oh my God, that was a little bit much. And as I got to know the product, I'd take it out on the mountain and I'd give them away to people and I'd go electric skateboarding around the seawall. And it was this It was the first time in decades that I had been stoned.

3:38:40BubblemanI had just been high for 20 fucking years and I totally had turned my back on the beauty of being stoned. And I think for me, I discovered that that's what I want to share with people. I want to show them a nice stone that doesn't come from cannabis, but is from the hash. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:39:21BubblemanShitty moldy weed, you know, from a sketchy dude that I probably shouldn't have been communicating with when I was in junior high or whatever. So that's what I did with my brand. Build the bridge, create some products that they can kind of come over and visit. And so I would say to anyone that's on the panel with oil, and Yari, before anyone answers my question, you can chime in because you've had your hand up for a while.

3:39:45BubblemanBut I wonder... Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll get to you for sure. Um, I just wonder what, uh, what you guys are doing in a similar way to educate your, the, the, the people out there to what a great product, you know, a BHO or a, a live resin or a whatever it is that your skews are from the solvent based community. What's the best way to get into it?

3:40:09BubblemanWhat's the best way to lead those, you know, are you doing similar things, creating products that are easier to access?

3:40:19BubblemanGo ahead, Yari. Everyone can answer that question when you're done.

3:40:22SpeakerOkay, cool. I was just going to chime in on the cart situation because we talked about, you know, what an easy transition it is for someone who's not used to concentrates or oils. And so I'm not the hugest cart fan, but they're a big necessity in everyday life, going to the airport, going on trips, vacations where you can't get weed. In between zones, they're a good thing to have.

3:40:50SpeakerNow, they've been dog shit for years. And I think in the last three or four, some companies have really stepped it up and done the research on our type of oils burning in the carts. Because for, I don't even know how many years, it was just China sending us e-cig carts and that we were just testing to see what was best. So, yeah. The fact that they have no burn technology where the heat ramps up on and off when you're pulling the draw makes that really easy for people to not be holding buttons and over burning the oil.

3:41:23SpeakerSo the tech has got better. So I think that transition to people that don't have dab rigs yet or, you know, they're running around town and they can't have like a whole thing with them, that that is like the good transition for a lot of these people getting into it.

3:41:39BubblemanYeah, absolutely. You're not wrong. They're popular. I've definitely like, people ask me all the time, what's your favorite? What's your favorite? Dude, like if, sure, there's your favorite, but how about like, what are you willing not to smoke out of if you need to get high and you don't have any device? At that point in time, like, listen, like I probably won't hit the Coke can, but I'm definitely making an apple pipe, like 100%.

3:42:04BubblemanThat's no problem. I'll make a pipe out of a piece of fruit all day long. So there's something to be said for that.

3:42:13SpeakerOne thing we used to do at Incredibles, we we had done like distillations, like call it, you know, terpene distillations, but just sort of like a distillation of the volatiles until we we decided it was a good cut off, just sort of a single pass cut and coming up with some pretty like really pretty good And we would do essentially like essential oil events paired with like industry events where we would have a room and we'd put it in some bowl.

3:42:50SpeakerWe would spread out a little bit of our distilled terpenes into a bowl. And then, you know, pass that around the room and give like a whole education class on it. And I know it's not something that you can do all the time, but it's like a non-smoked entry into it too, where you don't even have to, like, they don't even have to necessarily ingest it, but they can still get an experience and everything and start learning about it.

3:43:16BubblemanYeah, it gets them sometimes over a little fear. That's what the micro dab always did. Even if they didn't get high, they tasted it a little bit and it got them over the fear of like, okay, like I did it because they're right to be fearful. It's like, dude, I could give you a dab that would be an absolutely nightmarish, terrible experience. You would not want to be here or in your body for that matter.

3:43:38BubblemanAnd so it's just best to avoid that at sort of all costs. So, um, Yeah, if anyone has any answer to that question in regards to, you know, things you're doing, not just to educate, you know, your customer base and to feed your customer base, but to also educate new people who are enjoying like pre-rolled joints right now. And maybe, you know, maybe they might have a better experience if they knew about, about extracts.

3:44:03BubblemanGo ahead, Murphy.

3:44:05MurphySo one thing I think that the solvent-less community has done really well in comparison to the solvent-based community, and there's a lot of reasons for it, and probably just the age of the processes, how new some of the things we do in the solvent world are, is that there is a big detachment. We've talked about it a few times between what happens in the lab And what happens for the consumer and the consumer doesn't really need to understand the entirety of the process.

3:44:43MurphyBut I do think there's a ton of value in showing your lab, showing the process and giving that visual representation. You know for someone to understand the temperature of decarboxylation or what decarboxylation is or why it happens at a specific temperature is unnecessary for them to still see rosin drip out of a press and look at the color and smell it in the room and say this is correct you know and so we can give consumers that kind of Thank you so much for joining us today.

3:45:46MurphyAnd and the nature of operating with butane and propane, you know, there's there's a lot of business reasons why people don't want a camera in the lab. But if the marketing team could show real stuff happening. you know like a lot of my job is lifting a jar and looking at it i i do that a lot but there there's better content that we could have you know consumers exposed to like i would love for consumers to see the freezer storage nicely packed and organized um and you know start promoting some trends like that where people show their facility because you know a grow gets to show the healthy plants you know someone who's washing is showing this ice water is showing the hash you know they get to flex the visual images of it and get people closer to it and i think if people could feel a little bit more connected to the process with that information they don't even have to understand it They just would have some concept of why CO2 isn't butane even if all they know is that it looks different when it comes out of the machine because they've seen what it looks like when it comes out of the machine.

3:46:56MurphyYou know, there's a lot of these visual cues that we all talk about and know naturally that the consumer just hasn't been able to see from us in the same way. And I think, you know, I do a lot of that and just showing the lab, which goes a long way to build trust. It's kind of like having an open kitchen in a restaurant, you know, we can just see what's happening and it builds trust.

3:47:20MurphyI love an open kitchen.

3:47:23BubblemanI love an open kitchen and I also am terrified of an open kitchen. It's a good confidence to have when you go to an open kitchen. Oh, I've one time in my life, I was at a place that had a beautiful open kitchen that I'd eaten there many times. Thank you for watching.

3:47:56BubblemanSo I do love the transparency. It's why, personally, for live hash rosin, when I'm buying it, I would love to see a small sample. I'd love to see a picture, something. I think it would be great. You buy a gram of live hash rosin and you get like a gram of the bubble that made it. So you can really get an idea because, you know, the sensory input.

3:48:18MurphyLet's see the flower it came from too.

3:48:20BubblemanYeah, well, at that point, it's right, you know, why not? Be a pretty good thing. For certain. So that's awesome, everybody. We had a pretty good conversation here. We still got about 14 minutes to go. So, you know, we can kind of I do want well, I have you guys all here as well. If you guys can reply back to that email with your Instagrams and contact information, I want to put it into the description of the video because there's tons of people in the chat that want to reach out to each of you.

3:48:50BubblemanSo that would be really wonderful if I didn't have to kind of chase you guys around and you could do that. Otherwise, yeah, another 14 minutes. I definitely want to thank our sponsors. This is the first Hash Church in 11 years. I've said no to sponsors for 11 years. So it's also kind of wild and neat. And, and ironic that, you know, some of my first sponsors are for the solvent world, including Adam at Evolved Extraction Solutions.

3:49:21BubblemanYes, I got your name right, Adam. You can check him out over at Evolved Extraction. Like I said, I'm going to put everyone's contact information that they are willing to share. Of course, Instagram is usually a main one. Email probably won't be putting phone numbers, but certainly emails. So thank you to Adam and Evolved for sponsoring today, as well as the Media Bros, of which Adam is their distributor here in Canada.

3:49:51BubblemanSo they made sure to say if you guys wanted to get a sample or a discount of 15%, you can reach out to the Media Bros dot store. Use the code HashChurch. Capital M, Capital B. And you get either a free sample there from those guys. So thank you, Media Bros, for supporting Hash Church. And thank you to my friend Jorge from Chemtech. You can check them out at mychemtech.com.

3:50:18BubblemanAnd just like I said, some of the nicest diamonds I've ever seen was from the homie Jorge in Berlin. Awesome that you're out there doing that. And then, of course, I got to thank my friends, Mark and Dennis. From the Craft Greenery. It's a local dispensary here in town. And they're sort of, you know, they've just got a good consciousness. They're really into finding good variety and good cultivars.

3:50:41BubblemanAnd yeah, I've got some favorite rosins that I get over from them. So thank you there. Anything else anyone wants to cover in the 10 minutes, 11 minutes that we have left. And also really before we get to that, thank you guys for being an awesome panel. What a great group of people that Mark Sheldon has brought together. Definitely want to stay in touch with you. I don't want this to be the solvent episode.

3:51:04BubblemanI want it to be the first of many parted solvent episodes. So we're definitely going to. Get you guys back and get deep into these conversations. But in the meantime, if anyone has anything they want to share before we sign out, it's been almost four hours of Hash Church on a lovely Sunday morning here, I guess afternoon now in British Columbia on the West Coast, just overlooking the Pacific Ocean.

3:51:29BubblemanIt's Bluebird Day. It's sunny. Kind of makes me want to like drive up to Whistler and smash. Well, there's no powder up there right now. It's kind of East Coast, icy, nasty, terrible conditions. But it's still epic and awesome to be up there. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I'm not going to lie to you. Whistler's rough right now, but we're doing what we can with it.

3:51:47BubblemanAdam and I are going to be up there next weekend and we're going to be smashing the ice mounds. Right, Adam?

3:51:54SpeakerHopefully we get some snow between now and then. I think it's supposed to. We will. Get a system in. We will. Absolutely.

3:52:04BubblemanNo Wade laughter? No, you know, shout out to Wade. He must be having a rough day. I know that he will always make it to Hash Church if and when he can. I certainly shared the link with him because I always love, really, I can finish it off, but no one can finish off an episode like Hash Church. I always have inter, like I'm looking inside my being.

3:52:26BubblemanI'm trying to become a better person. It's just like Wade literally touches my heart and soul every time he speaks. We love Wade and just have a deep respect for everything he's done. I mean, what a what a soldier like just giving medicine away to children.

3:52:40SpeakerWait, I know.

3:52:43BubblemanI hope I hope I hope we can do maybe a little video together where you guys are like, you know, at least hear your voices in the same room. That would be a really cool thing. Also wanted to mention what else did I? Oh, I wanted to mention that Jorge had his hand up. And what did you have to say there, my friend?

3:53:01SpeakerI just wanted to touch base a little bit on like the solvents. I feel like we didn't cover the, like what solvent do you like to extract with? For example, you know, isobutane, propane, and n-butane all behave a little different in the extraction process. Yeah. Some pull more turps, some feel more fat, some more color, and they each pull a little bit of a different flavor, you know, like from each other.

3:53:26SpeakerJust wanted to get like some feedback from everyone if possible.

3:53:30BubblemanDude, I love this. This is going to be, first I'm going to let Murphy and maybe a few others of you guys just give a cliff note answer. But I think this will be the conversation to start the next solvent episode on. What a great question, Jorge. Go ahead, Murphy, you put your hand up first.

3:53:50Murphyum yeah there's there's so many reasons to choose each one and it's such a good question and it's one in our industry specifically because it's so young and new that we can all get really hung up on because the first question you have to ask yourself is about your equipment and what it's capable of because sometimes the best solvent for a specific SOP is not going to be the best solvent for the underpowered heater and you know low wattage chiller that you have to you know run that process sometimes you have to think about you know at the at the cost of the equipment you have and at the cost of the scale that you want to perform at you can also in the way that you can choose a best solvent You can compromise in a really strategic way so maybe you know because you have lower pressure vessels you go colder and longer with butane and you you know change your surface area and you you know you make decisions accordingly and so you know as important as it is to choose your solvent you really have to choose your equipment with your solvent in mind you know and in traditional chemistry it's not You know, unusual to have a totally different piece of glassware if you change your solvent in order for you to match an SOP or you change your SOP to use the same glassware.

3:55:20MurphyIn cannabis, we sometimes try to do everything with the same two columns and hope for the best, which is not even, you know, go back to repeatability as you brought up earlier. The best solvent is the one you can repeat with. If you can't repeat a process, None of it is best. And the solvent is the first place to start. You know, you mentioned earlier, Indra was one of the first to bring up this gas needs to be clean.

3:55:48MurphyWe haven't learned that lesson. And we haven't tried. We're using refill cylinders, which are designed for fuel. You know we need to be having direct fill tanks that are stored on site you know maybe buried underground if you're in a tornado area or something you know we need to we need an entirely different process to facilitate what we want to do but a lot of times we get real hung up on what product we want to make what's the best solvent for that and we don't start with what is the best solvent for the process that we're capable of um if we've already bought equipment or want to pursue like that That question can put you in a real circle if you're not careful.

3:56:27MurphyAnd a lot of times people will get bad results from a specific solvent because of those ancillary features. And so it's a very integrated question that you probably need to ask every day, every batch until you have incredible repeatability.

3:56:44BubblemanIt's definitely two-dimensional. You definitely answered it from that sort of corporate business owner perspective of like, well, listen, that's not. I feel like Jorge asked it more like, yo, what do you guys like for your best solvent, like for your head? But I don't know. We'll let him answer that. But first, John, you had your hand up first, then Jorge, and then Yari, you'll be up after that, and then we'll call it a day.

3:57:11BubblemanIt's okay if we go over five or 10 or 20 minutes. So go ahead, John.

3:57:15JmWell, yeah, I think definitely a good place to start another episode on because we could go pretty deep into the various reasons you might, you know, choose, you know, neat isobutane, neat propane blends with normal butane or whatever. Because although they're all non-polar solvents, they're all alkanes, they pretty They do pretty different things in terms of dissolving different flavorings as far as that goes. And I noticed that with just straight N-pain, certain flavors don't get picked up almost at a wide range of temperatures.

3:57:57JmIsobutane, that bond, I guess it's the bond angle. Mark could come in and explain that later. May be more capable of pulling some more polar, All of that stuff is flavor inside of the mix. And everybody knows that propane does a great job with, you know, terpenes as a whole. There's a lot there, not to mention temperature. And the original reason I had my hand up was just to give a shout out to the solventless community, because I have became a better hash maker from learning the things and following the solventless community as they are having to look so closely at all these different trichomes, you know, characteristics and morphology, you know, That has educated me to be able to select the style of extraction for a given biomass.

3:58:47JmAnd that gets into solvent selection as well.

3:58:52JmAbsolutely.

3:58:53BubblemanJorge, I think you were next.

3:58:58SpeakerYeah, so the question was basically like Murphy got it like a I wanted to bring attention to that. Like, you know, you guys use different solvents for different purposes based on the SOP. For example, I want to mention like one time I was testing how much THCA each solvent can dissolve. So I loaded up a miner or, you know, two miners with the same amount of isolate and injected same amount of solvent.

3:59:26SpeakerOne was isobutane, one was n-butane and heated them up to the same temperature. And notice that only isobutane can only dissolve about half the amount that n-butane can. So that's why like your SOP would, I guess, matter for what you're after to extract. But in general, to like what you were saying, yes, there is also like to extract with like a... For example, you can get away with using a blend like 70-30, being 70 butane.

4:00:00SpeakerAnd that can bring benefits. For example, it can help pull a lot of the other compounds with the extract. So you have a more full profile. And it can also help with like recovery times because it boils over a lot faster than butane.

4:00:14BubblemanNice. Very good. Yari, you had your hand up.

4:00:17SpeakerIn my personal opinion and doing all the experiments with the grows and the flower and everything and butane is the best solvent for weed in my personal opinion. I know that they explained all those other reasons if you wouldn't get really like analytical with it, but all around the effect, the HT that comes off of it, the THCA that you pull from it, I personally think N-butanes is the way to go.

4:00:50JmYeah, I run just neat. I run neat, normal butane mostly. Yeah, but I do envision this like, you know, super nitty gritty future of like, oh, okay, this variety has this flavor profile. So for this extraction, I'm going to dial this blend of co-solvents to make sure I, you know, honor that bouquet. But, you know, I wish I was running living soil top shelf every day.

4:01:14BubblemanYou got to make it happen. Tell it, you had your hand up.

4:01:17SpeakerYeah, I've also run N-Butane to keep it simple on the recovery too, to ensure that like I'm not having to do crazy math to try to get my ratios back to what I wanted after recovering. So that's part of the reason why at Incredibles as a business, we always kept it N-Butane just to keep it simple. So we were always recovering Just one gas and the ratio of gas has never changed in our recovery tanks.

4:01:46SpeakerAnd just sort of out of preference, I guess, too, over time. Probably a little bit of bias in that.

4:01:54MurphyI'm just going to have to beg everybody because I love propane so much, you guys. You just have to run it such high pressure. If you're running low pressure propane, you ain't doing nothing. But if you're willing to blast it, like really blast it, You can do, it's, it's everything that CO2 should be able to do, but doesn't.

4:02:14JmWell, it's actually kind of similar to CO2 in some ways.

4:02:17MurphyAnd a lot of the chemical ways.

4:02:20JmYeah. You know, it's a tetrahedral type three-dimensional structure, but yeah. Right. I like to compare propane to like, you know, that's like riding a bucking bull, you know, and in pain is like riding a good, well-trained horse. And it depends on who's driving, you know? And like you're saying, for the business sense, I think Entain is more popular for many reasons. And one of them being it's really nice to handle.

4:02:49MurphyIt's not. It's cheaper.

4:02:54BubblemanAwesome. Well, that was an incredible conversation, everyone. Really, thank you for coming on today and just dropping the knowledge. Like I said, first of many episodes. We're definitely going to go deeper. I want to hear more from both Jorge and Adam and Murphy in regards to the education that they're doing. I wanted to, you know, see a little bit, talk a little bit about the genome project that you have going on there.

4:03:20BubblemanWith your education and just, yeah, I'd love to, you know, obviously speak to all of you again here in the very near future. So, Dr. Mark, thank you so much for bringing this great group of people together and hopefully you guys had a good time over there puffing bowls and ripping dabs.

4:03:39SpeakerWhat was really cool about pulling this group together is it It brought back some relationships like Eric and I haven't seen each other in a long time. Yes, it's such a long time. It's so good to see you. It's so good to reconnect. And, you know, it's great to hear from some of the younger folks in the room, too, because, yeah, there are some OGs. We did have an invitation out to Boris at Busy B and Jason at Emotech.

4:04:09SpeakerSo, yeah. You know, but hey, we got kind Bill in the room here. Yeah, it's awesome. This is great. Yeah, it's great. I mean, this is a great community of people. Ryan and Max, you know, I love you guys. We did consider, you know, basically throwing maybe an invite out to Derek, but I think having having Ryan and Telly here next, next best thing and Yeah, Marcus, thank you so much for giving us this opportunity to come together.

4:04:38SpeakerMurphy, you're always so impressive. I could always tell you that everything that you say is spot on chemical, you know, I mean, chemically correct. And I think the real difference between propane and butane has nothing to do with the polarity. Polarity is about the same. It has to do with the thermodynamics, has to do with the rate of recovery. And the fact that, you know, it's a lot easier and quicker to recover things like butane.

4:05:06SpeakerBut Jorge, thank you so much for sharing that result, that result about the fact that isopropane dissolved less than N-propane. You know, you might want to mention real quick, the terps also play a role there. We're talking about just clean iso, you know, no secondary solvent. Right. Right, but just side-by-side comparison. Yeah, I mean, just to be able to do a side-by-side comparison and share that result with the world, you know, what I envisioned as soon as you said that result, and Jorge, I don't know if you remember, I came by your booth at BizCon and we had a really, we had a really nice chat.

4:05:46SpeakerThat was a really, really great experience. Yeah, I remember you. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And I'll say the same thing I said to Murphy, which is that Everything that you're saying is spot on correct. I mean, you're not a chemist by training, but you're kind of a chemist by observation. And that's really great. But sharing that result, again, maybe that's a great way to do a control crash.

4:06:13SpeakerYou know, the fact that you can take advantage of different solubility differences in these different solvents, there could be ways of perhaps, you know, like if you wanted to make like kind of like the micro diamonds or, If you wanted to sort of speed up your process, you could keep that in mind that, hey, if we're rich in isopropane, we might see a crash happen sooner than later, sooner than we predicted, right?

4:06:41SpeakerGo ahead, Adam. When we developed the genome crystallizer, that's actually the original insight that drove that innovation was noticing that if you added cold propane into a jar of dissolved Thank you for joining us today.

4:07:30SpeakerCan drop the solubility and kind of like create like an instant cascade of crystallization.

4:07:37BubblemanGo ahead, John.

4:07:37JmYeah. Well, it's real interesting. You know, Mark, you're saying there's not much difference in polarity between these three light hydrocarbons. Jorge has shown us, you know, with pure THDA, a clear solubility difference. And a lot of us have seen it between the three. Um, and then with the genome crystallizer, I've also wondered, you know, is it acting as an anti-solvent or a direct contact refrigerant? Um, and I think that's what keeping me involved with, you know, playing with all these things is, uh, there's a lot of questions to be answered out here.

4:08:16JmYou know, we know what works, but sometimes the how is gets into the nitty gritty. Absolutely.

4:08:26BubblemanAwesome, everybody. Well, we did it. We hit our four hour mark, four hours and six minutes, in fact. So I'm going to definitely, I've got all of your email contacts, but I definitely love for you guys to reply to the email or hit me up in any way that you can, ideally through that email. I'll also put you in touch with anyone if there's an email, if there's someone you don't know, but you wanted to know, but maybe it's not their name or the email doesn't really connect to them in any way, you can reach out to me.

4:08:53BubblemanAnd I'll make sure to connect anyone on the panel here today who wants to have the link. And just really thank the 400 plus people that were watching the entire time we had this episode. There's some hardcore cannabis nerds that just love to hear this stuff. We love to talk about it. So it's a marriage made in heaven, really.

4:09:15SpeakerSo I guess... BHO is not dead, right? BHO is not dead.

4:09:19BubblemanNo, it's right here today on Hash Church, Episode 3. And we'll be talking about this some more in the future. Hopefully, we'll make a bunch of wonderful new programs here. It's hard to plan a show. So once again, I got to give you props, Dr. Mark, for pulling such an eclectic, wonderful group of people. Thank you.

4:09:55BubblemanIn the meantime, I would say may the full melt bless your bowl sooner than later. And thanks everyone for the time that you spent with us here today on Hash Church. This is infinite. This will just be up forever and ever and ever, or at least a long time. So peace out, everybody. We'll talk to you next time.