The Solventless Episode

0:15BubblemanRecording in progress. All right, let's see what's going on here. Let's see if we're going to go live.

0:26BubblemanLet's see. Let's see. There we are. Look at that. It happened. It worked. We're live. Welcome everybody to Hash Church, Season 11, Episode 8, The Solventless Episode. We'll see if we're going to go live on this other page. It says about 24 seconds, so we're just going to see if that's going. Although we're live, you can see us. It's good, perfect, wonderful, excellent. I'm going to read off a little something something from our sponsors and I want to thank all of our sponsors today because we really appreciate you guys.

0:57BubblemanIt's awesome to have support and it's awesome to have support from really cool companies. So let me, oh, we've got a little alarm going off there. Okay, let me just go into, it seems like I'm missing a few things today on my, on my Zoom. There we go. All right, so we're going to start with Puffco. Thanking Puffco because, man, they're awesome. Big thanks to Puffco for sponsoring Hash Church.

1:24BubblemanPuffco has revolutionized cannabis culture. They've totally normalized extracts with their incredible portable devices like the Puffco Peak Pro. Boom. Like the Pivot. And like the proxy, I don't have my proxy here right now. It's kind of over there. So I'm not, I'm unable to show that. So these amazing units deliver top tier performance and style, making them favorites in our community. Puffco's unwavering support for all things cannabis.

1:50BubblemanKeep us lit and united. Check them out. Puffco's got your back. That's www.puffco.com. Very cool. I also want to shout out Low temp industries. Yeah. Low temp industry has built a reputation for crafting reliable USA made solventless extraction equipment trusted by the best hash makers worldwide. In 2024, they introduced the 30 gallon mini Osprey, a compact hand washing system for those who need a solid alternative to hand washing or plastic washers without compromising small batch quality.

2:25BubblemanIt's built with the same precision engineering as the full size Osprey. The mini delivers gentle yet powerful bottom agitation, ensuring consistent results. And that's why award-winning hash makers trust it, including Dammit Bobby, who took first place in the full melt category at Legends of Hashish with hand washed, sorry, with hash washed in a mini Osprey. If you're looking to boost efficiency without sacrificing quality, the mini Osprey is worth the investment.

2:51BubblemanI also want to shout out Sean from Heritage Seeds, who's been an amazing sponsor for the last four or five weeks at Heritage Seed Bank. They're not just distributors, they're passionate cultivators and preservers of cannabis heritage with decades of breeding experience. They collaborate closely with top breeders to offer only the highest quality genetics. Their goal is to empower all growers with access to the world's best genetics, knowledge, and support, ensuring cannabis remains diverse, potent, and accessible.

3:22BubblemanThey pride themselves on ethics, integrity, and transparency, working only with reputable breeders for ethically sourced, top standard seeds. They offer exclusive hard to find cannabis seeds with unmatched customer service, including fair pricing and accurate information. And they're of course going to ensure fast, secure, discreet worldwide shipping, worldwide, for those of you wondering if they ship to Canada, with stealth packaging for international orders, free replacements for poor German nations, Thank you for that.

3:51BubblemanAnd last but certainly not least, we want to shut up bubble bags. These guys stand out as the premier choice for water hash extraction when it comes to bags, and it's no surprise why.

4:12BubblemanThey're the original innovators who set the standard for quality and performance. Crafted with durability in mind, these bags come with a lifetime warranty, ensuring you're covered for years of consistent use. The team behind Bubble Bags, that's me, takes pride in their pioneering legacy, backing every product with unwavering confidence and a commitment to excellent, making them the trusted go-to for enthusiasts And professionals alike seeking top tier hash extraction results.

4:36BubblemanDon't be confused by the fakes. We are not bubble bag, dude. We are bubble bags. Hit me up anytime at bcbubbleman.icloud.com. And that is enough. So thank you to the sponsors. We'll be shouting them out as well throughout the show in the chat room. We'll put up their links to their websites. Bingo. Thank you very much for doing that. And we will also mention them right at the end of the show.

5:02BubblemanAnd now in the meantime, it's time to let in the panelists. So we're going to let in Pedro. We're going to let in John. We're going to let in Aaron. We're going to let in Colin. Oh, Aaron, I missed you somehow. And Nickity. So here we go. Amazing. Get the YouTube chat going over here to see what everyone's saying. Look at you, John, you're sideways. Dude, you're puffing on that full mouth this morning coming in all sideways like that, John.

5:33BubblemanNicky T's got the spliff, man. That's good, family.

5:39BubblemanI love that you smoke spliffs as much as you do. As a full-blown hash maker, you are just unwavering in your love of spliffs. And I respect it, dude. I wish I still loved spliffs. I really, really do. Tell me how.

5:56Nikka TI'll take dabs and shit too, you know? I know. How have I fucked up my life with this?

6:02BubblemanI feel like I ruined myself with dabs. How did you not ruin yourself with dabs? Because I feel like I love joints as much as you. I fucking lived for joints, dude. I loved rolling them. I loved smoking them. And then after two years of accidentally smoking full melt, you know, exclusively, when I went back to joints, I just couldn't do it.

6:23Nikka THere's my progression, bro. So... As a teenager, I started smoking hash and tobacco spliffs, purely hash and tobacco spliffs for 10 years. I'd say from like 15 to 25, just purely hash and tobacco spliffs. And it fucked up my throat, to be completely honest, man. It was a lot. I was smoking 20, 30 hashes. So it was mainly that much tobacco. And so that's kind of why I went to flour and tobacco, because I was able to use less tobacco to make it burn properly.

6:53Nikka TAnd now I feel like I've got like a nice balance. I'd say for a long time it was just flour and tobacco spliffs just because it was nice on my throat. But now I found a nice balance. I smoke hash and tobacco. I'd say I smoke two hash and tobacco spliffs a day. I'm probably smoking 10 flour and tobacco spliffs a day. And I'm still probably taking an average of five, six dabs a day.

7:17BubblemanBeautiful.

7:18Nikka TIt's a nice, it's a nice balance, man. Yeah, I was the same way.

7:20BubblemanI didn't smoke the tobacco. I didn't smoke the tobacco, but I definitely smoked the spliffs on a, you know, I was brokering weed. I was getting free weed. It was nothing for me to, you know, sell a hundred pounds, make 10 grand and get an extra pound of weed for free. And it was just so free that I was also, I mean, fantastic. Fuck, I was smoking like two ounces of joints.

7:42BubblemanAnd I was using those Lion of Judah papers that I found in Jamaica in like in 95 or whatever it was. Big ones, yeah. Big, thick, fucking nasty papers, dude.

7:54Nikka TBut in Jamaica, you had to use them thick because it's too moist out there for these thin papers to actually hold up and to be supportive.

8:01BubblemanIt's true. It's true, but I was doing it outside of Jamaica. Like back at home, I was like, I only smoke the Lion of Judah's, you know, three to four gram spliffs. I'm smoking like, you know, like you said, about 10 to 12 of them a day. My wife lived in a complete and total cloud of smoke. And yeah, now it's just... It's dabs, but I will say like I envy you being able to smoke and enjoy that joint.

8:26BubblemanLike I'm not being sarcastic. I'm not being like, oh, I'm so much better than everyone because I don't smoke spliffs. I fucking miss spliffs. I actually miss spliffs. Roll one up, bro. Roll one up right now, man. What's stopping you? True enough, man. Well, I want to welcome everyone, by the way, for today's episode, the solventless episode. Funny that I would hit Nicky T up almost last when he is literally the guy that coined the term solventless.

8:53BubblemanI was like, what are you? Sometimes I forget. I'll go in and I'll go look at the emails. I'm like, I'll just reply to an email. I don't even know who I invited to this show. I think I invited like at least 10 people that I weren't even sure of who they were. Just people that had been invited to the last shows. But yeah, you guys all have something very much in common today for certain, which is our love of all things hash and solventless hash.

9:19BubblemanSo thanks everyone for showing up. Pedro, it's been a while since I've seen you, bro. Good to see you, man. Good to see you as well.

9:25Pedros Grow RoomIt has been a little bit, hasn't it?

9:27BubblemanYeah, it's definitely been a while, man. Always enjoyed doing podcasts with you and shooting the shit with you. And just like, honestly, your voice is calming, bro.

9:36Pedros Grow RoomIt's just fucking, it's calming. Well, that's nice to hear. I don't think I've ever heard that before.

9:40BubblemanYeah, you kind of got it like a radio voice, man. Like you got this sort of depth to your voice where it's just like, yeah, it's a calming voice. So welcome. I'm looking forward to chatting with you today as well.

9:50Pedros Grow RoomAs am I, definitely. Thanks for inviting me, big time.

9:54BubblemanYeah, I want to welcome Aaron Waight as well. Heavy Icer X. This dude has... This dude has helped me. I shouldn't even say helped me. He's ran the show almost like by himself. We have about 500,000 people that follow these groups that we run. And he is like... I mean, I... I don't even hold a candle. He gets mad at me for my administrating. He'll be like, dude, what the fuck?

10:17BubblemanLike, did you just let everyone in? I just spent the last three weeks going through 900 fucking people and checking the backgrounds and the groups that they're in. And I'm just like, oh shit, damn dude. Like, I'm sorry. So top notch, above and beyond. Also an absolutely incredible hash maker. A guy that is definitely not like... Doesn't have all the advantages that a lot of people have and he still just grinds it out and pulls it off and pushes through.

10:46BubblemanHe's been going through crazy shit with his family. He survived his own fucking health scares and damn near died. The guy was like 300 fucking pounds at one point in time and on every pharmaceutical drug that you could possibly fucking consume. And I just fucking love him, man. He's just a great guy and I should probably invite him on to Hash Church a lot more, although I don't want to take him away from his administration.

11:08BubblemanHey, are you administrating the groups right now, Aaron?

11:11Aaron WaiteI will be when I'm not talking.

11:14BubblemanFucking hell, dude. So yeah, he's been doing like outdoors and he's been, you know, I remember you were doing the plant dipping to clean the plants and that became a whole thing. So we'll be talking about all sorts of stuff like that today. I saw that you just made a bunch of hash here recently as well. It's always inspiring. There's a lot of people out there who are like, well, I can't just grow weed and I can't just like make hash.

11:37BubblemanAnd I'm like, well, listen, dude, if Aaron can, you definitely can, dude. This guy is like fucking... Got, you know, it's not excessive in Aaron's world. He's using everything that he has access to, to fulfill and push through. And then not only that, he's constantly offering up to help people and to not just with his knowledge, But he'll go above and beyond and sometimes give away his own meds.

12:03BubblemanAnd it's not just like he's got like massive extras, you know, when he gives something away, he's feeling it. And I think that that's important in life when we gift, you know, it's easy to gift when you have like 5,000 of them and you give one away. But it's a lot harder to give when you have two of them and you give one away. And Aaron's very much a give one away when he has two.

12:24BubblemanSo welcome to you, Aaron. And thanks for being here, dude. I hold you in very high regard. I hope you know that.

12:29Aaron WaiteThank you, sir. Thank you for having me.

12:32BubblemanYeah.

12:33Aaron WaiteI learned a lot from you. So it's always good to be on the show with you.

12:37BubblemanYeah, full circle, man. I bet you learned a lot from a lot of the people in this room, you know, or we learned a lot from one another. I'll tell you one of the things that I learned from Nick at T, which was like when I was doing the drawing the hash on the cardboard, and he was like, you don't need to do that. And I was like, what the fuck is this guy talking about?

12:52BubblemanLike, is he fucking, is he fucking mental? Like, you absolutely need to do this. Like, this is imperative. And what I learned was, That he was in Colorado and that I was in the Pacific Northwest and that how you dry hash in those two different places is different. And that was a revelation for me, dude. I was pretty much feeling like I knew everything back then. And it was like, sometimes, especially when there's another person who's like, you know, doing really well and sharing, you kind of start feeling a little insecure, you know, it's like, who?

13:22BubblemanWho the fuck is this guy? I'm the fucking bubble man. It's like, well, you know what? John made enough for everyone. And I appreciate you a great deal as well, Nickity. You've done a lot for this industry. Your passion for the hashing is unparalleled. And yeah, I'm just really great. Happy to be in a good place with you that we can get along, that we can share information with one another, and that you're always eager to come on the show.

13:47BubblemanAnd I appreciate you for that. So thank you very much. Not in respect, brother. I appreciate y'all. Thank you for having me. Absolutely as well. So John Hatch is in the house as well. Hatch, Hatch. John is a buddy of mine who... Dude, he's just been making the fire, fire melt. He's been making hash that I haven't personally seen in a long time. Really, really beautiful stuff.

14:10BubblemanI got a little bit of his death baba here that I left out for about, I think I left this out for about five minutes at room temperature and it just turned to fucking... Hash Stone. Now I do have his other death bubble that I have kept in the freezer. There's not much left in here, but you can see what beautiful powder it is. Just spectacular. Six star bubble.

14:39BubblemanJohn is hand washing, I believe. You're still hand spinning. Is that correct, John? Yes, sir. Yeah. Yes, sir. But he's been making beautiful melts and he's been going out of his way. I don't know if you guys watched Hash Church. I believe it was Skunk Man Sam's episode. There was a snowstorm. My power went out. I ran the entire church off my phone. And John was like, hey, you need melts today?

15:03BubblemanAnd I was like, well, I'm not going to say no. And he drove here in a snowstorm, then drove up my multi hundred foot driveway, or sorry, walked up my multi hundred foot driveway in Birkenstocks in two feet of snow. You can't make this shit up, dude, to deliver the hash for Skunk Man Sam's, you know, You know, celebration episodes. So a huge shout out to you.

15:27BubblemanI can't wait to see the papaya bang bang. Have you made it?

15:32John HatchYes, sir. Yeah, yeah. It's been processed and I'm waiting to bump into you next to get it to you for sure. Wonderful.

15:40BubblemanWonderful. Well, I also want to introduce Kay in-house. What's going on, homie?

15:47K InhouseHey, dude, can you guys hear me? Absolutely, perfectly. Sweet, sweet, sweet, dude. Yeah, my name is Curran. I'm one of the founders over at In-House Melts. We're a solventless rosin company based here in Colorado. And yeah, I'm just really feeling pretty proud to be on this show. I've been following you for a long time, Bubble Man, at least like seven years now. So really appreciate what you do for the community.

16:10K InhouseReally appreciate what you do for Hash. I've learned a lot from you. And so, you know, I just wanted to, you know, give you your flowers while I can, you know what I'm saying?

16:19BubblemanOh, much appreciated, dude. Well, we're really happy to have you. I reached out to a bunch of different people. I believe it was James from Puffco who said, you got to get in touch with in-house. I was like, well, yeah, hook me up. Like put me in touch with in-house. So, uh, exactly.

16:32K InhouseYeah, man. Yeah. Um, the Puffco guys are sweet. They're awesome. Uh, one thing that I wanted to tell everybody, we are Puffco affiliated hash company. So that's why, I'm sure James recommended us. My good friend Scott Tillman is a community manager here in Colorado. And so we have a really good relationship with Pupco. I'm super grateful for how they helped us launch our brand. And what's crazy is that, you know, we only launched this brand back in May.

16:56K InhouseAnd so from May until now, we've had some really, really good traction here in Colorado. So not only are we Puffco affiliated, we're Dialed In Edible affiliated. And so, you know, we have a few things that are coming down the pipeline that, you know, I would love to share with everybody on this podcast. You know, this is pretty dope. This is my first time being on here and I'm feeling pretty privileged, man.

17:16K InhouseShout out to Nick at Tea. What's up, dog? How you doing?

17:21BubblemanHell yeah. Well, welcome, dude. Really happy to have you. Absolutely. I think I see you got a couple of, are those Kung Fu Vapes you got there next year?

17:28K InhouseYeah, exactly. Yeah. So this is our pen hardware. We're launching a new SKU. It's going to be all monogrammed and custom designed, but I wanted to show everybody the kind of hardware we're running right now. I really like this one. How do you feel about that hardware bubble, man?

17:39BubblemanWell, it's funny because here, check it out.

17:46K InhouseHell yeah, dude.

17:47BubblemanJohn's a homie. So he's supported us over the years. And yeah, man, I mean, I like a lot of different hardware right now. There's a ton of hardware. I actually got a really cool piece of hardware. I'm not going to go too deep into this, but I will show you guys really quick. I got this one recently. When I saw it at first, I thought, oh, fuck, this is like one of those big like nicotine vapes things.

18:12BubblemanAnd I wasn't really liking it. But if you look closely. What happens with this is there's two chambers and one chamber holds your oil and this little dial, these guys I met like yesterday, this little dial turns And each time you push this dial, it takes 0.1 of a gram of rosin and it brings it over to a different chamber that heats up the resin so that your resin, your rosin that's in the pen is never being heated.

18:38BubblemanIt's just sitting in there being held and then you turn the dial. And so they called it like dab on the go or something. It says numb on the front here. These guys I just met the other day, but I have to say, I love this concept of keeping the material

19:08BubblemanYou know, somewhat loyal to brands, that there are some amazing brands. I also love novelty and innovation. And my loyalty can be slightly breached. I won't blindly be loyal. I wanna be loyal to the company that's producing the most innovative and sort of new design. And when I saw that concept of, You know, being able to just click a little dab out of the material and getting it.

19:35BubblemanThis also speaks volumes of will you need to decarboxylate the rosin? Probably if you're putting enough in there, you don't want it to crystallize and harden and become unusable. But it definitely made me think a little bit differently about about pen hardware. So we'll talk about that in a little bit as well. I just want to introduce the rest of everyone on the panel. I'd love to welcome Jen Doe to the room, holding it down as all as she always does.

20:04BubblemanWe'd love to have Jen Doe on here. Super intelligent and finger on the pulse and Just a great hash maker, like no doubt about it. Always, always happy to see your photos, Jen. Always get my mouth watering when I see the headies and the air dried resin. We're going to talk about air dried versus freeze dried. I know Jen's going to have a shit ton to say about that today.

20:26BubblemanSo welcome, Jen Doe. Hi, thank you. What a wonderful introduction.

20:30Jenn DoeThanks, Marcus.

20:31BubblemanWell, you know, you're well deserving of a wonderful introduction, aren't you? I think so. I think so as well. Absolutely. So, yeah, we're going to get into some good conversations for sure. Colin, Collin Palmer. I feel like I've been making hash with this guy for like 25 years, yet we've never made hash together. How about that? The truth. It is the truth.

20:58Collin PalmerBut we sure talked a lot about it over the years, my man.

21:01BubblemanDude, true stoners at least 25 years ago.

21:06Collin PalmerStraight up. Yeah, it's where like Jill, OT1, I mean, Subcool. Steppenwolf. Steppenwolf, Kaka. I mean, man, a lot of good heads that I'd love to see more of that perhaps are not comfortable with coming out. But yeah. Yeah, we've been making hash a long time, man.

21:27BubblemanYeah, that's awesome. Well, it's good to have you here. I know we're going to have a good conversation for sure. And I would also like to welcome Tim Clark, Deep Search, to the room. I know we've been talking about getting him on a show here for a bit. He's good friends with Aaron. Aaron, turn me on to Tim. And we're happy to talk to you today, Tim.

21:45BubblemanHow are you doing?

21:46Tim ClarkI'm doing pretty good. How are you doing today, Marcus? Excellent panel we got going on here. We're going to have a launch of hash talk today, and I'm excited about that.

21:56BubblemanAbsolutely. We'll be covering the gamut. There's no doubt about it. Aromatic volatile compounds. Cannabinoids, different ways of dabbing. We're going to talk about parchment paper and what these different contaminations are that people are mentioning right now. I saw one the other day. I can picture pressing in your parchment, contaminating your hash, but someone made a post the other day, and I'm not sure if this was bro science.

22:20BubblemanI might have to send the link to Dr. Mark, but he was like, if you put your hash on parchment, even at room temperature, you're going to contaminate it. And I was like, I was like, really? That sounds like some bro science. I'm going to need some documentation to get into that one a little bit deeper. We'll definitely cover that. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I want to welcome Caitlin who just popped in from High Fidelity.

22:41BubblemanI know she's like not able to spend a lot of time with us today, but Caitlin's an incredible hash maker here in Canada with the High Fidelity rosin brand. They're pumping out diamonds and pumping out like really beautiful. It was the first really great rosin that I found on the legal market for certain. I believe it was Rainbow Driver. Yes, it was. Yes, it was. Yeah, I always mix up the rainbows.

23:05BubblemanThere's too many rainbows now. When I was a kid, there was just one rainbow. Now there's a lot of rainbows.

23:11Aaron WaiteThat rainbow driver is something special, though. Thanks for enjoying it the same way that I do.

23:16BubblemanYeah, absolutely. Well, it was also kind of trippy that I'm, I feel like the guy who grew it was maybe my old grow partner back like 25 years ago. So that was a kind of a trippy, trippy full circle as well. I had no idea whatsoever. The world is a small world, is it not? I hadn't seen him in 20 years, maybe 15, but close to 20.

23:38BubblemanAnd so it was very cool after smoking your rosin to be like, My homie Ty grew this?

23:44Nikka TOh shit, this is full circle.

23:47BubblemanSo awesome. I remember when I got my jar, I was driving across Canada and I was like, oh, there's a cool lake. I'm going to stop and put the jar up and take a picture. And oh, there's a cool mountain. I'm going to stop and put the jar down and take. Do you remember those pictures I took on my way home?

24:01Dr Mark ScialdoneI do, that was amazing. I feel honored that you did that. That's so cool.

24:05BubblemanWell, when it's good, we're excited, right? When it's good, we're excited. When it gets the mouth watering, we are excited. So, yeah. Yes, I agree. Awesome. Well, last but certainly not least, Wade Laughter, you're looking good today. Wade, how you doing, brother?

24:18Wade LaughterGood. I'm doing pretty good today. Had a nice visit with Etienne Fontaine yesterday here on the farm. And yeah, it was very sweet. Anyway, I'm going to go back to listening. I love hash, have not had the chance to make some in quite a while. Looking forward to this conversation.

24:43BubblemanWade has not had a chance to make hash in a while. Wouldn't it be cool if maybe we got someone to go over there with some bags and some material and like whip off a batch with Wade? That would be kind of a fun thing. Everyone needs to make hash every once in a while. I feel like there's a joy in it. I'll never forget when my mother, who worked for the police for 35 years as a 911 operator, who never smoked weed, who never smoked hash, who never made hash, Who's never around weed.

25:09BubblemanI brought her to my house one time here in BC very early on. And I had her make a batch. I just gave her the bags. I gave her the ice and the water and the material. And I said, you're going to make some hash. And she was like, okay. And it was like so old school. We were still using like a cake mixer, like a $9 cake mixer from Walmart.

25:29BubblemanAnd so I had my mom in the kitchen whipping up the medicine and, uh, I remember it was full melt. It came out like six star full melt. It was, you know, I don't know what it was back in the day, but every single material that I used to get, and I think this was an anomaly, and I really look at it now as an anomaly that had it not happened for me, had it not happened for Nickity, had it not happened for a few of us, I just don't think we would have become who we became.

25:58BubblemanWe had this incredible access to material, and I'm sure part of that was that we have a very Specialized olfactory. We were sniffing it out in a way. But I'll tell you, man, I really got to shout out all the people I used to get material from in the early days because every material that I put into the bags in those early days since Breeder Steve gave me the shish keberry, the yellow Afghan population there, it just never turned back.

26:26BubblemanIt was like six to ten years straight of just like putting full melt into the bag. I see a lot less of it today. And I'll ask that question to the rest of the panel if you guys see a lot less of it today. And I wonder, you know, when there's a place for something to go, Does it make it harder? Like if you're trying to get something that's special but you don't get it and then there's still a place for that to go.

26:54BubblemanOh, I didn't get the special but you can take it and put it over here and now it still has a home. Is it harder to get to that special? And the reason, you know, the metaphor I'll use is, you know, you've got... The fallback, there's irradiation. You can irradiate cannabis. This is a fallback for when you fail microbials, right? And it's not something you should be trying to do, failing microbials.

27:16BubblemanYou should try to grow the best cannabis possible. And if you have some random problem where somehow you ended up with a contamination and you grew a 400 kilo crop, you don't have to basically throw it away. You could irradiate it and still... Thank you for watching.

27:51BubblemanGuys like Nicky T would throw material in the bag, six star, but a lot of other people would throw material into the bag and they'd be like, hey, my hash, how do I get it to stick together like yours? And how do you get it to melt? And it's like, well, you know, that is a long journey, bro. You got to like learn about the Symbiotic relationships of mycorrhizal spheres and you have to understand the plant and you have to be able to sniff out the right genetics.

28:16BubblemanAnd so I just wonder, you know, would we see more full melt if there wasn't so many other places for it to go when it wasn't melty, when they can still find a home for it, which used to be BHO, which now seems to be Rosin. And don't get me wrong, I love rosin and I know lots of people loved BHO. I just feel like a lot of mediocre bubble that just never melted or never dabbed would go into either a BHO process earlier.

28:46BubblemanNow with Live Hash Rosin, younger people that are like, I don't want to blow up. They're like, I can just use a hair straightener. Do you guys... See a problem with that? Do you guys see like that there's less melts available because there's these ways out for people to take instead of that long journey of learning how to grow cannabis properly? What do you guys think about that question?

29:07Pedros Grow RoomI mean, I guess I'm one of the one of the rosin guys here. So yes, I do. And I've actually been talking to Jen. I'm like, Jen, give me some fucking full melt. Um, you're, you're right. A lot of, a lot of dirty hash is, uh, is sent to rosin. And that's why myself try to wash at least the first load or the first wash very, very sensitively.

29:32Pedros Grow RoomUm, even washing in an Osprey, I will, uh, I very well may paddle it for the first wash and that gets set aside for premium. And then there's other uses for other stuff. You know, you can you can put them in vape carts, which I'm kind of not a fan of, or you can send it to Edibles.

29:51BubblemanYeah, for sure. What about you, John? I know you do these like super light washes and pull and tell us a little bit about your production of melt when you're when you're washing.

30:03John HatchYeah, it's definitely like a A very select portion of total output. But yeah, I mean, I think as far as whether or not starting material is less quality these days.

30:25John HatchYeah, I think there's in prohibition times. Yeah, I think folks were probably the people that were doing it were just A lot more heavily invested in production in their process and therefore the subsequent outputs are an overall higher quality. I'd hate to think that people are just falling back on more worked processes to get around those.

31:03Nikka TI feel like today's material is even higher quality than it was back in the day, especially because we're able to select for washers. I think the main difference that you guys talked about is the micron separation and what we're separating for, why, how we're allocating those products. You know, you see less people wanting full melt now that rosin is available. But in reality, you know, distillate is still king.

31:29Nikka TWe're a small niche. Us right here, this group, we're a tiny niche still in most markets. We're less than 2% of the concentrate market in Jersey right now. It's solventless. So, you know, looking at that big picture, but I think access to material has really, really changed. I mean, when I first started, Fresh Frozen didn't exist. Now we're freezing whole plants just for this process. So I think the initial starting material has gotten a lot better.

31:59Nikka TIt's just in how we're allocating it. Sorry, I might cut you off, John.

32:04Collin PalmerNo, it's all right. I think there's a lot of things you can talk about when we're talking about starting material. You know, I always grew my own material until commercially we had to draw a line in the sand and make teams and put everybody in certain places. And sure, I was in the grow room, but it wasn't my every single second of my life like it used to be.

32:25Collin PalmerSo I think, yes, we have better access to varietals, but I don't know if the quality, Thank you so much for joining us today.

33:00Collin PalmerI think we're seeing a lot of these things in different, cutting corners in different forms through the process that I think is really, we've arrived at this place where there's levels to the game, right? And I think there's most people are trying to find a way to cut that corner, remove that bag to save that time where guys like all of us here, we live by those bags, you know, at least I do.

33:22Collin PalmerAnd our team really lives by grading it out and then deciding what out of that varietal, what is here that is great, you know, because respectfully, we can all agree each micron from different varietals have a quality to them. And you start to see like 120 can be fantastic in certain varietals and 90 just below it or vice versa. So all taking all that into consideration, you have a lot of things that along the way list in terms of touch points that amount to what we say is quality today.

33:55Collin PalmerAnd it's a lot to talk about.

33:59BubblemanYou know, I think, you know, it speaks volumes to what Nick and T just said, like distillate is king. And, you know, what did I just ask? Like, is it these negatives that are acted as a double edged sword that kind of fall into like, oh, we just grow moldy weed because we're just going to irradiate it. It's like, well, distillate seems like the ultimate solution. You know, cut.

34:23BubblemanIt's just like it's the easiest. It's the quickest. It's like, yeah, we'll just like we'll just make distillate like we can just grow fields of weed. It doesn't really matter what it looks like or the percentage of THC because we're just going to collect it in the end. And don't get me wrong, like I feel that it's important to have all of these different aspects, but distillate definitely is king.

34:42BubblemanIt's running the markets, you know.

34:44Nikka TIt is. We're constantly, by educating, we're changing it daily. I mean, I think we're at, you know, 18% of the concentrate market in California. But, you know, it fluctuates. And it didn't start like that. When I started in Colorado, you know, the reason we coined that term solventless is because nobody knew what we were doing. It didn't look like the other products on the shelf. You know, we had to educate.

35:07Nikka TSo I feel like the more we educate, the more that our percentage grows in the markets.

35:14BubblemanYeah, you're definitely not wrong. You know, I was watching that. The actually, I was watching the Canada versus USA hockey game recently and kind of falling into that little thing. And then I'm reading a book by Wayne Gretzky right now as well. And he talked about, you know, why hockey was never quite as big as the NFL and the NBA and these other sports. And he talks about the importance of the players not just playing the game, But building the game.

35:44BubblemanAnd when I look at all of you, you guys are the players playing the game as well as the players building the game. We have to build the game. And it's a different game for us because obviously, you know, we're not going to build the game the same way they build the game in hockey, because how they do that is They go, the famous hockey players go to like the younger arenas and they inspire the youth.

36:07BubblemanSo obviously we're not going to be allowed to, I'm going to go inspire a bunch of young eight-year-olds to make hash in their future. No, that's not doable. But we can hit the youth up at that 20 to 22 to 23-year-old, the younger hash makers that are coming up, you know, make sure that we have sort of inspiration. Make sure that that torch is consistently getting passed, you know, like...

36:29BubblemanI never really thought about the torch getting passed until Sam passed away recently. You know, I just kind of thought Sam would hold that torch forever. How could he not? He's Sam, you know, he's the grandfather of so much of this, like water hash in 88, you know, dry sift from the early 80s, like just been doing these hashes of this quality for so much longer than the rest of us that I just, I never thought that that torch would get passed.

36:55BubblemanAnd now I see that, you know, Sam's passed that torch on. Really to all of you. So congratulations. You guys are that next generation. Inspire, make great product, be a good person, be a good example. And yeah, share the knowledge and the information. And that is definitely one of the most important things.

37:18Jenn DoeSo I want to agree with Colin and Nick as far as, you know, the details have been kind of taken out and missed. And honestly, if we backtrack, like, where did this all start, right? Like, so we had all this good milk and then all of a sudden it just feels like it fell off. I personally think that I saw that happen with the introduction of the freeze dryer, right?

37:43Jenn DoeBecause now when you're not air drying, we don't have that plant material that can then oxidize our material or hash faster. And so, pretty much anything you put through a freeze dryer, you're getting that lighter color. And so, people aren't realizing everything that's still left in there. And so, with the cutting corners, like Colin said, the mixing microns, like Nick said, we're missing a lot of those steps.

38:13Jenn DoeAnd how we had to learn, it was all about the filtration at the top, right? So by removing all these bags, removing that filtration, then we're putting it through a freeze dryer and it's keeping that light color that they're looking for. And they're not able to really evaluate whether it's gonna be melt or not by that pull. Whereas when we have it on drying racks, We're able to get in there with our fingers and actually see how it's going to melt.

38:41Jenn DoeIt's also a cleaner product because we're when we learned we had to focus so hard on the cleanliness of the product before it left the bag. And now with the introduction of the freeze dryer and the rosin, that's kind of the last steps in there, right? It's that extra cleaning. It's that extra attention to filtering those out beforehand. So and I kind of agree with Nick, like we've got a lot of really great genetics out there, great growers.

39:12Jenn DoeSo I don't feel like that's the case. I think a lot of it is just it's lost in the details. You know, these details are cut out. And so, yeah, I think it was the freeze dryer that kind of like steered us away from looking for that melt and being able to produce it in a way because we didn't have that as a tool.

39:34BubblemanYeah, I will say as a photographer, when I started photographing, the real difference I saw is that without really, this was even really before like massive cleaning in the bags, rinsing and rinsing and rinsing. When I would make hash and air dry it, Whatever little stalks may have been left in there, they just got like absorbed by the blobs of heads. They would just air dry and congeal and create that beautiful look that we all love so much.

40:05BubblemanAnd when I photographed that, you could never see a stalk. Thank you so much for joining us.

40:28BubblemanThey're in the mix, but they're on the outside. And I always thought, I wonder if that's affecting the melt factor the same way when you microplane heads that really aren't that melty and you put that resin on the outside, much like those stocks are. You get a sort of faux melt effect, right? That effect of like a resin that's not really as melty. You can microplane it, open up the heads through that thick membrane, access that oil, and then when that flame hits it, it appears to melt maybe substantially more than it would melt if it was left in heads.

41:04BubblemanSo it's definitely an interesting conversation when it comes to the freeze dryer versus air dry. One of the things I love about John's hash for sure is that it's all air dried and it just, it's perfect, beautiful powder. As long as I keep it at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, it just stays in beautiful powder. The minute it's out at room temperature for a very, very short period of time, it just congeals into almost glass, but it's still gummy.

41:32BubblemanYou can still, you know, stretch it out at room temperature. And yeah, it's just beautiful hash, John. Shout out to you, brother.

41:42Jenn DoeI think another component, like if we think about, let's take it back to like traditional hash, right? What is the purpose for aging hash, right? So a lot of it has to do with allowing those terpenes to age and break down any of the material that is not cleaned out of that hash. So it'll actually help to break that material down. Therefore, it's not as apparent. Well, when we're air drying and able to keep the temperature just above freezing, we're allowing those terpenes to essentially do their job still, right?

42:16Jenn DoeWhereas when we're taking it down to such a low level, those terpenes aren't actually able to get in there and help with the breakdown of those stocks and those smaller particulates.

42:27BubblemanFletch's ears were burning. We were talking about freeze dryers. Boom. You got something to say about that, Fletch?

42:36Collin PalmerGo ahead. But I think I think you're you're touching on a lot of great things here. And I think there's air drying is is really the art form that I think every young hash maker should start with. And then from there, you can start to understand your your your inherent material around you in the world in which you occupy for the idea of separating. And then you can move yourself into these higher levels of thinking.

43:00Collin PalmerBut you have to understand the air dry method is the basis for understanding how to freeze dry. It truly is. If you don't understand that method, I highly recommend young hash makers that are listening to go and read and try and make. As Marcus said before, It shouldn't be impossible to make hash. It should be something you can just pick up and do. It's a linear process.

43:23Collin PalmerIt's like drawing a picture. Pick the pen up, pick the pencil up, and do. So I just, I really recommend that. But it's, air drying, I think, is the way forward for anyone out there that wants to learn.

43:37Nikka TI love that Fletch just popped on, though, for real, because he's really the pioneer, I'd say, of the freeze dryer. He was the first that I saw, that I heard of, got one for hash. So I don't know. Let's hear something from Fletch. Big up yourself, Fletch.

43:57BubblemanHe might be having a problem because normally he'd already be in. Excuse me.

44:02Pedros Grow RoomI have to throw out there, though, I don't disagree with anybody out there as far as As far as air drying, but I do hate the hate towards freeze dryers. There are a lot of variables that people can screw up. And I mean a lot of variables that people could screw up. But if you're using all the bags, you're paying attention to the detail, to the details, which again are numerous, and scope your hash after it's freeze dried.

44:33Pedros Grow RoomI flagged it up before. Absolutely. I've got full mailed hash of a freeze dryer.

44:37Nikka TFreeze-dried saved water hash, to be completely honest. It's what we had to put into our SOPs to appease the health department because we needed something in our SOPs that mitigated the chance for mold and microbial. Without the freeze-dryer, there wouldn't be water hash in Vegas right now. I know that 100%. There's a lot of... Colorado, there wouldn't be hash in Colorado. The health department was fighting water hash when people like, oh man, what was that guy's name?

45:09Nikka TI was going to say it also helped us to scale up, you know, because the process is not actually much faster. It's just more space.

45:39Jenn DoeYou know, more space that we're able to save by doing it. I mean, imagine how many bread racks, right, would it take to equal one tray?

45:51BubblemanAbout 10. Yeah.

45:55Nikka TWe air dried in, had 18 speed racks. We had an entire room, temperature, humidity controlled in a basement in Colorado, just dedicated to drying 18 speed racks.

46:08Jenn DoeSo in that 18 speed racks, you can fit that in one freeze dryer practically, you know? And so I don't know if anybody's paid attention to the size of washrooms lately, but it's not like we all have room for 18 racks.

46:23Pedros Grow RoomCan you guys imagine how scarce solventless material would be in the community if we didn't have freeze dryers?

46:30BubblemanYeah, I mean, in Canada, it was essential. I mean, our regulations are so strict and anyone can be. This is the other strange thing about and I've suffered this like many times. I mean, many, many times. There's something about people in cannabis and we're always just sort of afraid we always create a division we always oh this is better than this it's just in everything we do we always it might be human nature i don't know i've just seen it since i've been involved oh i like no you gotta i don't roll cones those are the worst you gotta roll them straight we all have these like really strong opinions of how we want things Thank you so much for joining us today.

47:10BubblemanWe're going to talk a little bit about how we want to turn people on, how we want people to be experienced, or how we want to turn people on. When it comes to freeze dryer versus air dry, I absolutely love the way air dried hash looks, feels, photographs. It's like photographing the most beautiful image when it comes to air dried hash versus freeze dried hash.

47:37BubblemanI've also flagged Full Melt out of freeze dryers. Absolutely pulled Six Star out of freeze dryers, 100%. Go ahead. Someone was chiming in there.

47:47Archive SeedsOh, I can make any... Oh, there he is. I can make any freeze dried hash look exactly like your air dried hash. All I literally have to do is... Put my freeze dried hash into a cold room just like where you're drying your air dried hash and leave it there for like a few hours and it'll start, you know, melting down and looking like air dried.

48:12BubblemanWith the freeze dryer, it is about really understanding the settings. I think a lot of people don't have an understanding of the vacuum and the settings and the process of sublimation. And I think they just kind of follow recipes that are given to them. And if you're lucky enough to follow one that is a good one, you kind of can end up with it. Let's just say you can definitely deterp your material with the wrong settings on a freeze dryer.

48:36Pedros Grow RoomYeah, I was just going to mention that, like what Jen said, with the freeze dryer, there are so many variables that you can absolutely screw your hash up if not paying attention in a freeze dryer, big time.

48:50Archive SeedsSo initially the freeze dryer didn't even work because the shelf temperatures were only 120 degrees. It wasn't until we developed. That's what I remember. Yeah, it wasn't until we built the 40 degree shelf, which never existed in like here was the thing is that. the freeze dryer was never going to work as designed because almost all other stuff that's used for freeze dry that they use for freeze drying is to remove a significant amount of water volume like an apple is like 50 water so to be able to get sure if you put a freeze dryer at you know five degrees let's say and try to freeze dry an apple it's going to take you two weeks or something probably You know, so it's not, there's, it's all about application method.

49:36Archive SeedsAnd so, you know, with Canada or with hash in particular, what I realized with the freeze dryers, there's absolutely no need. Not only does it cook your hash with 120 degree shelf temp, like every freeze dryer that existed prior to, you know, the, the harvest right models having the, the tunable, um, Shelf temperature, which we gave them the technology and the knowledge to be able to even manufacture that product.

50:02Archive SeedsWe never even had the option to do that. And the temperature was the main problem with the entire process. And because there's only maybe like an ounce or two of water in a tray of... Thank you so much for joining us.

50:40Archive SeedsWe're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

50:58Archive SeedsIs to reduce your dry time and your exposure to our environment to be as little as possible. So reducing your water weight is going to also reduce your dry time, which is also going to reduce your exposure to vacuum, etc.

51:14Pedros Grow RoomI can't disagree with that at all. We've collected the ice that's, you know, been around the inside of the freeze dryer before and isolated the terpenes that we have actually lost otherwise.

51:29Collin PalmerTotally. Totally agree with what you said, Fletch. And it's also, you know, we found different pumps get us down to vacuum faster and allow us to have a better curve. We found ourselves using the Harvard Strive Scientifix really quickly because we could tune the vacuum as well as the staging for every single stage. And we got really meticulous. It was like a drum machine for me. I was like tuning all the little, like just tuning everything.

51:55Collin PalmerSo each stage would have a step and an easier curve up to the next. Because the militores we found matter, you know, through every stage. And if you're just letting it rip, you're doing yourself in the process a total disservice. It's like using a drum hit and not tuning the EQ, you know. You have to, you know, sonically tune it.

52:20Archive SeedsI guess my question there is like what what staging are you talking about exactly? Like you mean the vacuum not reaching full vacuum or I'm not I'm not sure.

52:31Collin PalmerYeah, just not letting it go on like a governor, like going all the way to full vacuum, because if you let it get down too fast, like if you stay down. You know, the goal with like LabConco, for instance, or, you know, the scientific is to get to zero, right? And to get as far down as you can. And how quickly you get there, we found matters.

52:51Collin PalmerIt's about, you know, does it take you longer to get there? Because your process will take that much longer for it to happen. And then it'll, as you know, as we talked about your, we found that we have less volatile organic compounds through the process when we don't tune each stage.

53:06Archive SeedsSo yeah, I mean, I think that one thing that people should keep in mind or look at with the freeze dryer process is that every single compound, especially your turps are going to have different boiling points, right? So they have different vacuum points and different temperatures at which they're going to volatilize so quickly, you know, faster or stay around or get cooked or converted or whatever is all going to be determined by Your exposure time and temperature.

53:37Archive SeedsSo like, for example, with just drying hash, like if I take my like, basically, here's the two main things with freeze drying. People are, a lot of people talk about leaving a lot of water in the hash, right? And like, because they don't want all the hash to compact, right? And the problem with that is you're increasing your water volume that needs to get freeze dried out.

54:05Archive SeedsThe benefit to it is that it keeps all your trichome heads, the water that you're leaving in your slurry, let's call it, That's what keeps your heads from compacting when it's freeze drying, right? It keeps everything apart from each other. If you pull too much water out, like press it out and then try and freeze dry it, you'll get ice that gets stuck in the middle of your hash, right?

54:31Archive SeedsAnd you'll get compaction of your hash as well. And so the real key is to try to figure out how to reduce as much water as possible, but avoid compaction. And that's going to yield you the shortest freeze drying time. And like I would pretty much argue that there's no other drying method if applied correctly that you can dry your hash with this little exposure to either oxygen or just like evaporation of your terpenes than the freeze dryer.

55:10Archive SeedsLike I said, I mean, anybody that's like super on the air dried tip, I can make you, I can just take my freeze dried hash and I can make it look, smell, taste exactly like your air dried hash. By just taking my freeze-dried hash and putting it in the same environment that you're putting, that you're drying your air-dried hash in. It only takes me a couple hours.

55:36Archive SeedsAnd I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference between the air-dried and the freeze-dried. It's literally just like a big part of... Why a lot of people prefer the look of air-dried hash is just because the heads have congealed down and you've lost the air that's in between the trichome heads. So like the reason the freeze-dried hash doesn't look as clear like see-through as freeze-dried hash is mainly two reasons.

56:10Archive SeedsOne is that, exactly, it all melts down. One reason with freeze-dried hash is that the stalks that are contaminant in your product, they don't dry down at all. They maintain their like cellular structure. So the stalks look larger under a microscope when it's freeze-dried and not air-dried. The other thing is those stocks and all the air bubbles that are in between those heads get stuck inside the hash.

56:38Archive SeedsSo just like if you've ever like had a faucet in your house that it gets air bubbles in it and you pour a glass of water and it's all white looking and opaque and it's full of bubbles and then the bubbles dissipate and then it looks clear. That's the same thing happening to your freeze-dried hash.

56:53BubblemanOkay, you just said a lot there. I want to make a few points here real quick. So first, you were talking about the different volatiles in regards to the freeze dryer. And it made me think, wow, you could use Kylie's unit, right? The Indux Labs. You guys, I'm sure, are familiar with this Indux Lab vaporizer. If I can get it open, it's definitely not the easiest one.

57:17Pedros Grow RoomReal quickly while he's trying to open that damn thing up. I'm a little confused on leaving water in hash. Like, are you then air drying it out of the freeze dryer or what? Because I have pressed hash that has mistakenly had water in it and it's molded.

57:38BubblemanNo, there's no water in it. There's definitely no water in the hash.

57:42Archive SeedsI'm talking about the volume of water in the slurry.

57:46BubblemanIn the tray.

57:47Archive SeedsYeah, before you freeze dry it, if I have, let's say, 10 ounces of water and 100 grams of hash instead of 2 ounces of water and 100 grams of hash, when I pour my slurry into the tray, I'm going to have drastically different freeze dryer process for each product.

58:06Pedros Grow RoomYeah, 100%. If you're putting like super wet hash on your trays, you're making a mistake.

58:17K InhouseIt's not just about like how much water you put in the tray, but it's also like how many trays are you using? So like if you space it out, that shortens out your freeze drying time tremendously. And so for us, like, you know, we're at a commercial scale that we're at, you know, freeze drying time is like, time is of the essence, you know, sometimes you got to crank your product.

58:38K InhouseAnd so being at the mercy of a freeze dryer can be frustrating. But at the same time, if you can just thin out your trays a little bit more, even if you have the same amount of water content that Fletch is talking about, if you just thin it out a bit more, it will still dry at a faster pace, if that makes sense.

58:56BubblemanI prefer to reduce the liquid and I use screens that I got from Fletch that the hash goes over top of and then it doesn't compact the same way because the air has somewhere to go like it can go up and down. But Bear with me because this was a thought while Fletch was talking and I had a lot of them and I'm super baked so I want to at least get one of them out.

59:18BubblemanWhich was when he was talking about how different volatile aromatic compounds are going to volatilize at different temperatures depending on whether they're monos or thiols or whatever. And so it got me thinking that like this index unit that you can literally dial so sensitively that you can discover the flavor profiles in your product by climbing up the ladder and increasing the heat. And it's so delicate. Anyone that's ever used this unit, it's like you can literally taste different aromatic volatile compounds at different temperatures, substantially different.

59:54BubblemanAnd so it got me to thinking like, what if there was a tool like this That was sort of a part of a freeze dryer as well. And you could test your material before you put it into the freeze dryer. You know, even if you air dried a little bit to find out exactly what's in it in regards to your temperatures. And now you are going to adjust your temperatures accordingly.

1:00:16BubblemanIt also got me thinking that perhaps the freeze dryer that we have today We've got a lot of questions coming in. We've got a lot of questions coming in. We've got a lot of questions coming in. We've got a lot of questions coming in.

1:00:51Archive SeedsThe unnecessary division in the space and how everybody likes to draw these artificial lines in the sand about one product or process is better, but it's always an argument about qualitative stuff. It's not ever an argument about what the science behind the qualitative analysis is, right? And so that's probably my biggest... GRIPE is, there's so many people that want to argue about shit on the internet, but then when you actually want to have a conversation with them about the science behind it and why we're doing it and how your knowledge and experience could Thank you so much for joining us.

1:01:58Archive SeedsYou can't actually have a real conversation with anyone about it. They just want to argue about qualitative stuff that they've experienced quality-wise, but they can't tell you why anything is the way that it is. And it's just, it's a lack of people's interest in the scientific process and doing experiments that is essentially the main crux in the road that people don't want to cross. That's been my experience.

1:02:28Collin PalmerI think because most people don't look at it as an art form and they're trying to monetize off of every batch. And I think that's not my game. My game's always been like, how do I make it better for me? And then if I can share it beyond that, that's great. And I think that, you know, when it becomes your business, I think there's an inherent, you know, yeah, sure, get your business done.

1:02:50Collin PalmerBut like, dude, this is, as you just said, this is a long journey that you need to take risks to really find the truth in. And finding that truth is gonna take, Tons of time and tons of experiments. I mean, I, it's why we started looking at different pumps. That's why we started, like, as you said, all these VOCs have a different temperature in which they either, they either combust or they're, they're going to volatize that.

1:03:16Collin PalmerRight. So I think that through that process, shelf temp matters. I was just looking at, as I was saying, like looking at what we, even we changed our shelf temp as it, as the, the temp in the chamber changed, you know, and we finish it minus 10. Right. Because that's, you know, I was just I'm looking at it now. It goes from 10 to 20 to 30 to minus 30 to 25 to 10.

1:03:39Collin PalmerRight. And that's that's how we've been doing it. And then the pump, you know, is also a correlation to that because of these, you know, all of these things all matter. It's it's all it's a linear process that all it's like playing music to me. Right. You have to have This inherent connection to each step. Otherwise, it's incomplete. There is no linear A to B or B to C. You can't skip around.

1:04:07Collin PalmerSo when you're dealing with shelf temperature, it has to be linear and it has to make sense for the process. And that has to do with not only shelf temp, but environmental temp in the chamber and then your vacuum. Where are you at? You know, so all of that stuff I think is super important. We're really passionate about that in the lab. Each batch is not the same.

1:04:30Collin PalmerThere is no silver bullet when you're dealing with freeze-dry times or temperatures or even vacuum. You can try that, but I don't think that you're doing the best process that you as an individual can do.

1:04:43Pedros Grow RoomThere's another. Don't want to cut you off. Go ahead.

1:04:46Collin PalmerWell, I just I just encourage people to push themselves to try different things, try shorter times, try different vacuum times, go get a lot, you know, go get a different type of freeze dryer than a harvest right. There's you know, we have a lot of really great options that were never there in the beginning when we all started. Holland Green is one that look at I think Lab Conco is just out of everybody's hands because of how expensive it is.

1:05:11Collin PalmerBut it's a great tool.

1:05:13BubblemanLabconco was a surprise when you buy that one because you have to understand it's not a freezer. Yeah. Although it will stay cold because that thing... Yes, it'll stay cold, but it's not a freezer. So like one thing that you'll learn about the Labconco when you use it is that you need a freezer. You need to freeze your trays like at minus 20 or 30 degrees Celsius before they go into the Labconco.

1:05:39BubblemanAnd so once they go into the Lab Conco, like if you just leave at night and be like, oh, I'll just come back tomorrow morning and open the thing. This is what I'll say about the Lab Conco. It is, there's a lot to learn with the Lab Conco. It's a truly a lab freeze dryer. It's used for like freeze drying all sorts of different things in like vials and ampoules, more so than like trays filled with ash.

1:06:04BubblemanI know this because I've talked to them many times and they're like, yeah, we did not design this for you to like dump They also have thicker, deeper trays, so they fit a lot more hash. What I will say about that is it was hard to keep it cold all the way through. And whenever I opened my Lab Conco trays or doors versus all my harvest rights, Thank you so much for joining us.

1:06:50BubblemanThank you so much for watching.

1:07:12BubblemanYou should be able to like dry 10 to 20 to 30 kilos before one of those things gives you a problem. And to me, that's a good number. That's like, oh yeah, I can spend $150 getting a new relay for my lab conco or whatever. I just ran like 25 kilos through it or 50 kilos. I mean, honestly, I have lab concos that I've run over 100 kilos through of hash that are not lab concos, sorry, harvest rights that never gave me a problem.

1:07:40Collin PalmerYou know, the Lab Conco for me was the six hour dry time, man. When I could hit that and see the material come out the way it did and the particular settings that we landed on over time, this took a lot of months to work on. It changed our game. I mean, we started then freezing our trays to go into harvest rights, you know, because it changed, you know, conceptually, it changed how we thought about things.

1:08:01Collin PalmerAnd, um, It's a fantastic tool, man. To me, it's like a modular synth that you have the ability to really tune to get your sound just right for you. Yeah. I recommend it.

1:08:13BubblemanIt's definitely for professionals. It's for professionals. And that's why today I want to not only talk about freeze dryers, although I love the conversation and I think we should go as deep as it goes. I do want to get back to a point later on. Where we get into air drying and I want to kind of hear everyone's sort of revelationary moment for their air drying and how they were able to, you know, get it to dry properly.

1:08:37BubblemanBecause to me back then, the drying of it, Was really the first real... I mean, the other stuff came to me very naturally, like don't overmix it, don't like beat the shit out of it, like put in nice material. All that stuff seemed like common sense. The drawing did not seem like common sense. And I will admit, I fucked that up pretty good back in the 90s when I would just be like...

1:09:02BubblemanJust like finger pressing it right out of the bag all just like oh yeah like just water dripping down my arm just like oh yeah man this is gonna be beautiful and crack popple you know like just blowing up in the bowl because it's full of water and then of course the classic molding of the hash that had the molding of the hash and how much hash I was unfortunately responsible for molding because I just showed people the incorrect way to, well, I wasn't even showing them to dry it at all.

1:09:32BubblemanI was just like, just finger press that shit in your hand. Just squeeze all the water out. It'll be fine. It was not fine. In fact, that turned out to be incorrect. And yeah, that was a hard pill to swallow. That took me a couple of years. That's why I was so religious about like, just please make sure you dry your hash and also bumping into people.

1:09:52BubblemanWhere they would pull out their hash and show it to me. And sometimes I could tell it was really nice hash, but it was like, it was funked. It was just like, it was wet. And, you know, I was just like, oh my God, that's my fault. So I'm very happy that A, Fletch turned the world on to freeze dryers from a commercial standpoint, because I'll tell you making 40 or 50 kilos of bubble in a commercial environment and even coming close, Microbial is so insane.

1:10:20BubblemanFor instance, the microbial count failure for Michigan is 100,000. But I believe in Illinois, and correct me if any of you know that I'm wrong, I believe in Illinois it's 1,000.

1:10:35BubblemanThink about that. That is like, you will have a hard time getting a pass on anything. I feel like RadSource cut a deal with the Illinois government and was like, make it a thousand CFCs or whatever the yeast and mold count measurement is. CFU. CFU. Thank you, Tim. CFU. Make sure they have the max is a thousand and we will be in business. I cannot imagine if anything in Illinois is sold without irradiation because that's an absolutely incredibly low number.

1:11:13Pedros Grow RoomYou know, I think one of the big parts to that is this is medicine. Treat your room like a lab. You need to go in and you need to make sure that you're clean. You need to make sure that your any exterior that you're wearing stays in the lab. Cleanliness is key. Yeah. Well, I think.

1:11:35Collin PalmerYeah, I think you're right about that. And, you know, in New York State where we're operating, our lab has to deal with 10,000 CFUs, which is fairly low. Well, I'll pause. Everybody pause for a second to let Marcus figure that out. Thanks brother. So I think the, the, the CFU is, you know, I think the chief science officer at medicinal genomics, I listened to an interview about his point of view on, on this.

1:12:03Collin PalmerAnd I think he's right on by saying that we just don't have the right testing protocols to be able to call out the good and bad microbes. So therefore we're grouping it all in. And we have this really misconstrued and misunderstood CFU count that really is there for... And if you talk to regulators, they don't really understand it themselves. So, you know, and then we as hash makers and growers have to deal with this because the plant loves, you know, the biome loves all of that bacteria, right?

1:12:31Collin PalmerSo it's really hard for us. And I think, you know, it's a big conversation moving forward that I think we should all be more vocal about because it's... You know, radiating cannabis is just, it's insane. I don't even, I feel like we have to hold people to the flame that do that. You should be able to put that right on the front. Remediated cannabis and see how many consumers buy into you.

1:12:54Collin PalmerYou know, like, what are we doing? Dude, are you kidding me?

1:12:57BubblemanYou could put botanical terpenes.

1:12:59Nikka TThank you for joining us.

1:13:19Collin PalmerThank you so much for joining us.

1:13:48Pedros Grow RoomThis is a tough one, man. I will agree with you 100% there.

1:13:51Nikka TFresh Frozen is helping a lot of these situations, you know, where the testing is very rigorous in these states. You freeze it, you know, and, you know, oftentimes they're not even testing that stage. It's an interesting dichotomy right now, but Fresh Frozen is helping a lot of these situations. So, freezing for us.

1:14:15Tim ClarkThe funny thing, though, ultimately, is that when we're really looking at CFUs from a pharmaceutical perspective, we're limiting it down to submicron rooms. So ultimately, when we come at it from the cannabis field and we see a thousand as an average standard, but then we've got in Colorado something around 10,000 to 15,000 allowable CFUs. We're not necessarily even taking it down to the level of which our competition is.

1:14:42Tim ClarkAnd our competition, unfortunately, in this world is the pharmaceutical industry. That's the prevalent force of what really guidelines and sets the standard for us, even if they are arbitrary standards. So when we're really thinking about it, We're not even really close to being able to achieve it with any of these standards because ultimately what we're really trying to achieve is we're trying to achieve a continuous flow process.

1:15:09Tim ClarkAnd every integral step that we're talking about here ultimately, it sidesteps that in what In a throughput sense, actually limits our costs and allows these scales of economy to really work for us and get us to the same manufacturing standpoint that at least our competition is at with the scales of volume that they do produce.

1:15:32Pedros Grow RoomAnd to add to that, just as an instance, one of the facilities that I worked for failed for Eagle 20. And Eagle 20 has never even come close to the facility. So, you know, when we talk about making sure that we're clean, um, Yeah, it matters big time. We still can't figure out where the hell the Eagle 20 came from. One of the more interesting... Sorry, go ahead.

1:15:59Archive SeedsThere's only two places it could have came from. Either the lab had contamination or... Very likely, probably the most likely. The other thing is that if you collected a clone from someone else, right, that had been treated and flowered within, especially, you know, a... What are they called? I'm brain farting right now. But a systemic pesticide like Eagle 20 probably 60 day half life, right? Yeah, I would I think Eagle 20 somewhere around 100 to 200 days, right?

1:16:34Archive SeedsSo if you had acquired a clone from someone or somewhere that had been treated directly, it's possible that that clone specifically could test anywhere, you know, for the next 100 plus days.

1:16:48Collin PalmerYeah, we've seen that with a lot of different clones people have tried to give us. We take a tissue sample and let you write. We've seen upwards to 120 days.

1:16:57Archive SeedsWell, I'll say this much. I would much rather get a clone from somebody that has Eagle 20 on it that I can mitigate than get a clone that's absolutely teeming with Eagle 20 resistant powdery mildew. So, you know, I think there's a lot of like... Hate for like pesticide IPM regimes. And it's like, it's all about application. People using the right shit at the right time to completely eradicate a pest rather than letting it persist in an environment and grow a tolerance to your mitigation efforts.

1:17:40Archive SeedsYou should use the right shit one time, not use the wrong shit a million times.

1:17:46Collin PalmerWell said, Fletch. 100% agreement.

1:17:49Archive SeedsLike passing clean clones is more important than passing a plant that hasn't been quote unquote treated. What we're really looking for the other day is sterile tissue. And the easiest way for you to get produced sterile tissue is going to be either tissue culture, cleaning it like you would a tissue culture sample, or treating it with, you know, Thank you for joining us today.

1:18:38Archive SeedsThank you for joining us today.

1:18:57Archive SeedsImpregnated into that tissue as well. My point is simply, if you don't have a tissue culture lab, I'm just trying to help the people that maybe don't have access to everything.

1:19:09BubblemanYeah, like Heritage Seeds said in the chat, there are endless people peddling PM-infested clones in our states. Oh.

1:19:19Archive SeedsI mean, I'll say this much. I've never been to a single commercial facility in California that doesn't deal with persistent PM issues. I agree. 100%.

1:19:29Tim ClarkSame one either.

1:19:31Archive SeedsAnd I've been to hundreds of grows in California.

1:19:35Pedros Grow RoomYeah. That comes into relative humidity. That's what's nice with making it here in Colorado is we don't deal with PM very much.

1:19:48Archive SeedsI mean, every commercial facility in Denver I've ever been to had PM2. Granted, I haven't been to any in recent years, but it's persistent even in low humidity. It's just the existence of the pest in your garden, really.

1:20:00Collin PalmerIt goes back to the hot and cold swings too. It's not, yes, humidity plays a role, but we, if you look at any white paper, any deep study on any of this stuff, you start to see that it's really temperature swing and then variety, you know, Genetic makeup has a lot to do with, as we all know.

1:20:16Archive SeedsThe main thing is that pest being in your environment in the first place and being persistent and holding over from some other source. Like, I've been growing in Washington State for 23 years, and I have buddies that never took in outside clones from other than me, and they've never seen powdery mildew before. They don't treat for it. They don't use sulfur products. They don't spray micronized sulfur.

1:20:42Archive SeedsThey don't use a sulfur burner. They don't use Eagle 20. They don't use anything. And it's simply because the pest doesn't exist in that environment. I mean, even in like, I've, I've seen so many closet grows over the last 25 years that never had PM, never got it because the clones that they received didn't have PM. They didn't bring in, uh, Any contaminated tissue and they didn't visit contaminated gardens.

1:21:09Archive SeedsSo if you don't do any of that, your odds, depending on where you are in the country, but your odds of getting it are basically zero. And the only places that I've ever seen get it that didn't have all the things I just described are places that have a neighbor that's a grower, you know? So here's a question for you. From there, grow goes into your intake.

1:21:31BubblemanWhat is your SOP? When you leave these infected powdery mildew ridden Cali grows before you go back to your grow?

1:21:42Archive SeedsWell, first of all, I never go back to my grow directly. And I've never done that in 20 years. Second of all, you need to strip naked outside your house and put all your clothes into a garbage bag. If you have plants at your house, if you have no plants at your house, then I would just take all your clothes and put them straight in the washer.

1:22:01Archive SeedsBut, you know, you have to keep in mind your shoes, your hair, all of your clothes, anything you are wearing, you have to completely break the cycle. And, you know, all these people that say that like PM is a systemic thing. Um, a thing that you can't get rid of a pest. That's not true. It's just, they don't understand how to break the life cycle of a sporulating plant or sporulating fungus.

1:22:30Archive SeedsIt's, it's difficult. It's not easy. It's very easy to transfer it. And it's just, it's, again, it's, you know, like I said, instead of like picking up a book and reading about a lot of this stuff, most people just start making assumptions and then posting it online and then trying to create a following out of all this information they think they're learning. But, you know, 95% of the stuff in the cannabis space has already been figured out in the commercial agriculture space.

1:23:01Archive SeedsAnd there's plenty of papers about the application of all of this stuff from other industries that are easily searchable on Google. So it's just, you know, we just have a lot of misinformation in this industry because of the financial benefit of getting people to believe you.

1:23:19Collin PalmerYeah, well, I wanted to tell you something that you just said was really struck me hard is like the idea of, Thank you for joining us.

1:23:51Collin PalmerI'm sure everyone on this panel does this. We externalize, we go out and learn and see what's out there to kind of bring back in to learn about. And everything out there, I mean, when we were fighting years ago, we fought broad mites and had to learn about their life cycle. That's the first thing we did. It's like, how do they hatch, in what numbers, and at what stages are we supposed to do what?

1:24:13Collin PalmerYou know, and it's all there. So I think that's something that should be taken very seriously for any home grower. Because you shouldn't be having these issues, as Fletch said. It's all...

1:24:25Jenn DoeI think part of it also comes from not only the misinformation out there, but also I feel like people get a little scared to treat. And so we run into what Fletch is talking about as far as having these resistance. It's no different than us humans getting sick, being fed antibiotics until all of these illnesses, they're now antibiotic resistant. So I think when people... you know in the beginning i mean from people i've spoke to that reach out it's like they're very scared to actually properly treat it like what is the dose that i can give them so as opposed to wanting to go a little too high of that dose people are going under it and they're just slowly feeding it to these things and so they are getting resistant So I think just, you know, along with the research, like make sure that you're following that research.

1:25:19Jenn DoeLike if it says to use this amount, use that amount to start, you know, and see how that does rather than not under dosing. Thank you for joining us today.

1:25:44Jenn DoeAnd, you know, until you do actually go in and tissue culture it and clean that out and sterilize the whole area, we're talking like corners, cracks, fucking lights, vents, like everything. Yeah, it's really challenging. So yeah, definitely make sure to do the research and find that proper dosage and use that dosage and the timeframes.

1:26:07Dr Mark ScialdoneLike if something says...

1:26:08Jenn DoeYeah, if something says that you need to do something every three days because a certain pest's life cycle is established like that, like without understanding the why you're applying that, well, why do I have to apply that in three days? Well, what if I slip up and I do it in four? What if I do it in two? You know, I think people are missing the fact that there's a reason that there isn't a dosage and there's a reason that there's timed application.

1:26:35Jenn DoeSo...

1:26:37Collin PalmerYeah, the other thing is dunking your plants is a far better way to get full coverage than using a sprayer. Yeah, foggers are great, but there's nothing like a good solid dunk.

1:26:48Archive SeedsAnd you're still dealing with you can't dunk your soil. I mean, you can do drenches and that can be pretty effective, but You know, like Jen was just saying, you know, you got to clean your whole room, which if you have active spores and everything, then yeah, you know, you want to clean all your fans, your cracks, but you're never going to get every crack. But really, at the end of the day, where these pests...

1:27:11Archive SeedsAll of that holdover is on the plants themselves. And the plants are actually the hardest thing to clean in this entire thing. That's what they live on, that's what they live off of, and that's what their life cycle depends on. And so what most gardens just don't realize is that one plant that you're keeping a mom of, that extra tray of clones that's holdover between your cycle changes, this extra tray of clones you got from your buddy that you're keeping over here because he needs them.

1:27:41Archive SeedsThose are all the those are the plants that are continuing to infect your garden. You have to have essentially like clear delineated environmental lines in between every stage of cultivation. And if you don't, you're going to end up with persistent cultivate or persistent pest issues if you have those pests in your environment. Yeah, true.

1:28:04Jenn DoeAnother thing to look at that, like, it's so easy to overlook things that'll contaminate. So we talk about like clothes, we talk about like, you know, trays, this and that. But what about like brooms? Right? I mean, how many times have I gone to grab my broom and been like, oh, shit, like Thank you so much for joining us.

1:28:42BubblemanPhones are brutal. And if you're wiping them with like ISO in particular, like you'll degrade the screen. You'll actually over time damage the screen of your cell phone. So I've always just washed everything in my lab, brooms included. Everything gets washed that's in the lab because it can all be contaminated. That being said... I've made some of the best hash in the world just in my garage in a plastic bucket with a cake mixer.

1:29:15BubblemanAnd smoked that shit and enjoyed it pretty good too. So there really is a dual conversation happening. You know, you have your conversation that is the business end of this, where we are under regulatory framework that we have to follow. We're no longer trying to just get hash to our buddies. Now it's like, oh, I just sell to like an entire state or, or an entire country, like maybe 10 provinces or something.

1:29:39BubblemanSo that becomes a very, very, very different game. Thank you so much for watching.

1:30:02BubblemanI would, I'd love to hear from, from Aaron because he's a real like rootsy hash maker. He's, you know, grown his own. Oh shit, did he leave? He bounced. Oh no, there he is. I was like, damn, did he go? I did a weird thing with my setting recently where if the video's off, the person completely disappears. There's no blank screen with like their photo or their name on it.

1:30:25BubblemanAnd I don't like it. I'm going to be honest. I'm like, damn, I can't see people on the same level. But yeah, I'd love to, Bring it back to some hash making on that roots level, dude. So why don't you walk us through your process? You're always making fire.

1:30:40Aaron WaiteWell, I mean, I kind of started on the medical side of things, and I've made a lot of hash, but unfortunately, I've needed an opportunity to sell it and recuperate any of my expenses. So my whole spiel kind of comes out of my disability check, which is a little unbelievable to me because it doesn't really even pay for food. But yeah, so I guess my topic would be budget hash making.

1:31:16Aaron WaiteAnd really going as natural as possible. Maybe natural is not the right word, but doing it organic and putting plants out in the earth under the sun. I mean, cannabis plants need a little bit more nutrition and love than that, than just leaving them out in the sun to grow. But I mean, it's almost kind of, it does itself. You know, if you take care of your plants outside.

1:31:41Aaron WaiteSo, you know, I found that to be not only the most budget friendly way to grow my medicine, You know, I also want to grow my medicine organically under the sun. So it works out that it's kind of the best way for me. And then, you know, without a greenhouse or any kind of covering over your plants, they do get a little dusty over the course of flowering outdoors in Michigan with a You know, all of the pine pollen around in the air and the chemtrail lines in the sky of who knows what chemicals they're dumping.

1:32:23Aaron WaiteSo I do give them a dunk at the end of the harvest before I hang them to dry. I kind of, because of all the mold and pollen and spores and things in the air, I think that kind of helps remediate or clean a little bit of that before they go

1:32:42Aaron WaiteThe drying room to sit there for a week or two to dry. And yeah, I just air drying then was a whole lot cheaper for me than buying like seven deep freezers to put fresh frozen in. So that was just the natural progression for me is to I had a barn, you know, hung all my plants up there. And then, you know, right when I was starting is kind of when freeze dryers became popular.

1:33:17Aaron WaiteAnd that was just that's that's half of my year's disability is a freeze dryer. So that's not even a possibility. And I do everything in my barn. I've got one room in my barn that I, you know, I clean every corner of it with cleaner and make sure it's sanitized. And yeah, that's just been my whole process is just, natural isn't the right word really, because that's kind of an appeal to nature.

1:33:41Aaron WaiteBut as basic or as raw as I can, if I can do something manually rather than have a machine and just push a button, for me, that's just more fun. It makes it more of a, Aaron Ward- An art form or Aaron Ward- A song, you know, I came from the creative creative arts, being a graphic designer and a musician so Aaron Ward- Hash making is just kind of another art expression for me.

1:34:08Aaron WaiteAaron Ward- So I like getting my hands dirty and doing everything manually.

1:34:14BubblemanOh, yeah, dude. Well, you're always making the fire. That's for sure. You can check them out at Heavy Icer X on Instagram. So it's got really nice, just quality photos and quality looking hash and colors. And he's just got the right eye. He is an artist. In fact, I always am impressed when people he kind of came out of nowhere to do like he was just like one day not making hash.

1:34:37BubblemanAnd then like a week later, he was just teaching people how to do it. Like he just seemed to learn it so fast. Just pretty awesome, man.

1:34:44Aaron WaiteWell, I mean, at the beginning, I was basically just parroting your videos on YouTube because I'd been watching the bubble man.

1:34:54Aaron WaiteThank you so much for joining us today.

1:35:21BubblemanPretty lucky in that sense as well, being able to accurately just know that what you are sharing is quite accurate, but I'll just show a couple of... Couple of shots from your Instagram. I thought this shot was really nice. I've made a lot of hash over the years and I never thought to just put them all together and show the, you know, like I'm actually a part of this, like hurt my soul.

1:35:44BubblemanCause I was like, Oh no, they're touching. But it's also part of the beauty of it as well. You know, it's like they're touching. Oh, that's nice. Like why are we segregating our hash by color? This isn't right.

1:35:56Collin PalmerI mean, we were talking about earlier, right? Like that's the way to be. I love it. I mean,

1:36:03Aaron WaiteWhen I'm washing, I'm always washing to try to get six star. But like I said, I'm doing everything on a budget and I'm doing it with outdoor plants and, you know, six star hashes, it's a lot of work to get it that clean and to, you know, from outdoor to the drying rack. So, um, Yeah, I forgot where I was going with that, but the microns are always separated.

1:36:30Aaron WaiteYou know, I'm always going to have them on, you know, I'm always going to pull the bags separately and I'm always going to dry them all separately because I want to dab the hash each micron range individually. I mean, even if it's two star, I want to see what that micron range represents from the plant. You know, and then if I get six star from one, I'll pull that out and that'll be my beautiful six star, but...

1:36:56Aaron WaiteOnce I know everything is a really nice, solid, melty four or five star, but I don't want a dab four or five star, heck yeah, I'll mix it all back together because it was way easier to rinse the hash clean using all the different micron bags than if I had just caught all of that hash out. So I know it's a little scary to see it all mixed back together, but it's for good reason.

1:37:23Aaron WaiteIt's my clean full spec now.

1:37:25BubblemanFor sure. So another question I have for you is how important was it? Because you did go through this pretty substantial transformation. Like what at what point did solventless and organic growing play in your sort of healing and becoming just a healthier version of yourself?

1:37:46Aaron WaiteWell, I had actually been converting my diet over to organic even before I got into cannabis because I had enough of my allopathic doctors Thank you for joining us today.

1:38:18Aaron WaiteMy health will improve a little bit rather than, you know, junk food all the time. And that really I came into cannabis, you know, right from the beginning, wanting to wanting to have organic cannabis. And that was nearly impossible buying it dispensaries back then, which were kind of gray market. They weren't even legal dispensaries back then. And there was nothing organic. And it was it was kind of scary stuff.

1:38:40Aaron WaiteSo as soon as I put a seed in the ground, I was doing it in What did they call that? The TGA's Subcools Super Soil Mix. That's what I planted my first plants in. And they were TGA genetics.

1:39:03BubblemanCut out for a second there.

1:39:05Aaron WaiteSo really the organic stuff was from the start. And then from there, I mean, and even when the dispensaries started getting extracts and it was all BHO, I was like, come on guys, you know, I don't even understand BHO yet. And I know I don't want anything made with butane. I mean, I'm eating all organic and avoiding butane in my food. So, you know, I don't want to add it to my medicine.

1:39:34Aaron WaiteAnd it really I didn't even get to try bubble hash until I made my first bubble hash. So, um, From your own plants? When you go to those lengths, I mean, I had tried some, I bought a little bit from other people that there was a year between me running out of disability settlement and starting my own plants. So Michigan Made Melts is a Michigan brand back then.

1:40:00Aaron WaiteThey're still around doing work, but 10 years ago, they really helped me out because for a year I needed, I needed meds and they had meds and they were learning about freeze dryers back then. And So I did get some of that hash, but really the organic and the air dried and all those steps, basically what I consume now, I had to make myself to try. And then that's what I've been making ever since for 10 or 12 years now.

1:40:30BubblemanVery cool, man. Very cool. Thanks for sharing that story with us. I like bringing it back. We were getting pretty like corporate there. We were into like expensive equipment. And it's important to remember that there's a lot of budget hash makers out there as well. And the beautiful thing about budget hash making is, sure, maybe you're not going to make hash for an entire state, but you can clearly make beautiful, incredible medicine for yourself and maybe a few others without that much difficulty.

1:40:58BubblemanSo it's impressive. That's what I love about cannabis. I don't think that... I hope it always stays in the hands of the people, no matter how big it grows with business and corporate entities. I do hope that it always, you know, that people... I guess it would be scary if it got to a point where the business end of it was so good. Like I always thought if I could just go to the store and buy like an ounce of pure haze heads and like an ounce of like, you know, just like hundreds of varieties of full melt dry sifts or full melt bubbles that it was just available.

1:41:32BubblemanAnd it was at a, you know, that would almost be a bummer in the sense of like, I would, I would be sad about the under... You know, the mycorrhizal sphere of cannabis, that community of how it connects so many people together, not just because you buy it at a store, but because, I mean, imagine for Aaron, he's just like, I'm just going to, I want to make bubble hash.

1:41:56BubblemanOh, well, you can't find material anywhere. I'm just going to grow some plants and learn about organic farming. And in Michigan, dude, where it's like septoria, is fucking everywhere in that state it's insane growing weed without getting that shit attacking your plant and then to be able to turn it into hash and then rosin i mean my god man what i'm excited for your journey you know that what you're saying marcus is really really i think important because you can go to a heart i mean you have to buy get the bags from from bubble bags or your favorite

1:42:32Collin PalmerThank you for joining us.

1:42:54Collin PalmerThank you so much for joining us.

1:43:16Collin PalmerBecause you don't need all this stuff. You just need the will to do it. And I think it's really important that Marcus said that because you can go to a hardware store and walk away with the setup and actually go home and make hash. Order the bags and get the right bags because not all bags are the same. But it's really, you can do that. And I encourage everybody to do that.

1:43:38Collin PalmerIt's what all of us, I think, did. You know, I know I did. I went out and was like, I got to get a Get this and get that. And then I'm, you know, DM'd Matt Marcus and was like, hey, man, what else do I need? You know, and, you know, this was when I was a teenager and, you know, the late 90s, you know what I mean?

1:43:56Collin PalmerSo if we can do this, so can you. And I really encourage it because it's where the best comes from is just finding it and doing it.

1:44:09BubblemanI was going to share a video, but it went to an ad. I've made hash on a school bus with DJ Short driving through the city of Vancouver. I've made hash on my boat with Johnny B. I made hash with my buddy Phil. Johnny B was at this one as well. Up at the Chicamas River outside in Whistler, British Columbia. I love making hash outside. I made hash outside on Ron's deck.

1:44:33BubblemanIn the Kootenays with his old dog buddy there. Every time I try to share it, it goes to here. That's just a little, you know, it's just the snow. I remember this was a stressful one because I had to catch a plane ride in like two hours. And we started this like, so this is just me and one of my old mentors, Ron Hickey. We still around living in the Kootenays and just making hash out on his deck, just with some brutes and just with, you know, and it was just fun.

1:45:02BubblemanIt was just fun hash making. And I, you know, it is true that I don't know why we're bullies. I don't know why we bully each other and bully one another and shame one another. So, and just seem to get joy out of it. People seem to get joy out of shaming people, but it's like, you know what? If you've got a bit of a ghetto system set up, That's okay.

1:45:24BubblemanYou can use it, tweak it, fix it up the best you can here and there. But it's certainly, like I said, to this day, some of the best hash I've ever made was with a bloody cake mixer. And now, huge shout out to companies like Low Temp and coming out with equipment that you can extract commercially with. I'm definitely not against that. I think it's amazing. But it's just at the same time like, yes, if you've never gotten into this, you don't need to go spend, you know, $10,000 tomorrow to get into it.

1:45:53BubblemanYou could go to the Home Depot and, you know, literally get the equipment that's needed to play around and make this stuff. I think that's what was one of the things that popularized it was that it wasn't dangerous. And that it was easy to kind of do in your own space, in your own kitchen. So many people made hash for the first time in their kitchen or out on their deck if their spouse was kind of like, hey, you know, come on, go.

1:46:19BubblemanI think I was out on the deck the first few times, but eventually snuck my way into the kitchen and shredded up the kitchen, making hash, hash water everywhere, sticky everywhere. Awesome.

1:46:31Nikka TMy current R&D setup's been evolving for 14 years. Yeah, and it's constantly evolving. It's not over. It's not done.

1:46:38Pedros Grow RoomRight. My first time washing hash with your bags. We've had this discussion before. Back in 99, I washed it in my effing shower just because I didn't, you know, partially because you didn't know at the time what to do. There was no shared information. And partially it's just what you have available sometimes, you know, not everybody, not everybody can afford things.

1:47:06Archive SeedsYeah, well, I think the point that we're making here is that as long as you're like relatively clean in your after process, the quality of the starting material is what's important, right? It doesn't really matter how, you know, whether it was in your backyard, in your bathroom, or in a million dollar, you know, washing facility that's making too much hash. If you have good material going in, Your only goal with washing it is to preserve it as well as possible.

1:47:39Pedros Grow RoomDude, and on that note, back in 99 when I grew my first harvest, I had shitty, shitty weed. But it was what you had to smoke instead of going to buy it from somebody. And I remember dumping my first harvest into that ice water and being like, that's everything I just had right there in ice water. I hope this works. And we got like a big spoonful.

1:48:10BubblemanAh, the loving spoonful, the infamous eyebrow raise. I'll never forget showing people this process back in the 90s when really very few people had seen it. You know, you might have seen it if you were in Amsterdam and you went by Mila's place, but otherwise it was like, it was just 99.9% of people you showed it to had never seen it. They couldn't wrap their head around putting the weed into water.

1:48:35BubblemanThat was like a big one. It was kind of like...

1:48:38Ryan Dank AfWhat are you doing?

1:48:39BubblemanYou know, especially when we went from trim, because it really started with trim, to flour. And then eventually, like Nicotine mentioned earlier, to fresh frozen. Now suddenly it was like, holy shit, we're not even like, Drying and trimming these plants anymore. We're just going to capture them. That was a big change. The fresh frozen change, you know, catching those monoterpenes and terpenoids had not been done before.

1:49:04BubblemanPrior to that, it was all of those that would have been cured out in the drying of the flower. But yeah, kind of like probably in history, it might have been the first time we started really inhaling those compounds into our lungs.

1:49:20Nikka TI'm sure farmers had done it in the past just because they didn't have the room to dry it, you know, but that the internet didn't exist or social media, they weren't on social media. But really, you know, our reason for it is we had some plants harm out on us at day 50 or so. And I asked my partner, I was like, yo, can we play with these, you know, because they're about to fuck up the grow.

1:49:42Nikka TAnd we were able to basically take them down and process them fresh. Processing these plants fresh was very unstable. It just stuck like goo to everything. All of our tools, our bags just got gummed up. And, you know, I called it bubble gum tech where we couldn't push it through a sieve. And so we were like, well, how do we, you know, now we didn't have time in the night.

1:50:07Nikka TWe were doing this all through like the middle of the night. And we're like, well, how do we save this? And how do we make it more stable? And we ended up just freezing it. And at that time we were freezing it with big stocks attached to it because we were just trying to get it somewhere. And that's, I think, really where it stemmed from.

1:50:26Pedros Grow RoomYou know, doing different methods, but progressing your methods brings in and introduces a lot more variables. You know, so when you were talking about washing the fresh frozen, you have to be in a cold environment, have to be in a cold room, you got to be using very cold water.

1:50:45K InhouseI also think it's strain dependent too. So like different strains grease down at different rates at different temperatures. So for instance, we run like a black maple. That's something that's going to grease down way faster than let's say, You know, a lot of the other genetics that we work with. So I think it's obviously cleanliness is a huge thing, but it's more or less like knowing your strains, knowing you're like, even the bringing it back to the freeze dryer, like different strains dry down at different rates.

1:51:12K InhouseSo like, if you don't understand your resin textures and the flavor profiles you're working with, You know, you're going to have a very hard time regardless of your setup. So whether you have the most sophisticated setup or the most simple setup, we started with four lights in a basement. So like, you know, you just have to get started, I think is the most important thing. And then besides that, like the passion will come with it.

1:51:35K InhouseAnd then the quality comes with how much time It's like you get a direct correlation with how much time and effort you put in and then the result that you get at the end of that deal. So for us, I think that everybody just needs to figure out a way to get started. I understand that like money is an issue. So and that's how, you know, we're more of a boutique brand here on the Colorado market.

1:51:57K InhouseSo, you know, price points, they vary. So for us, it's a little bit different. But for the everyday grower, If you can keep it clean, if you can keep it simple and then kind of like develop your develop your system efficiently and then you can duplicate that and teach anybody, then I think you're on to something. But until you get to that point, if you don't know how your resins or your textures are working or how sandy they are, you know how fast they dry down or the cure rate, you know, you really need to get educated on the genetics that you're working with.

1:52:34BubblemanYeah, nothing like experience to teach you about those things. Experience comes in very handy.

1:52:39John HatchVariables, variables, variables.

1:52:43BubblemanFound the 25. Oh my God, dude. That's so funny, that sock bag. Dude, and that's a super rare one, let me tell you, because that would have been like maybe 2000. Because in 2001, I made that bag pink because my daughter was born that year.

1:53:05Pedros Grow RoomAnd you have your wife, I believe. You said she hand sewed it. The ones that I bought back in 99, you told me.

1:53:13BubblemanYeah, in 99, she was making them for sure. By 2000, Mark Rose began to make them. He's my partner. He was Mila's partner. He actually was the manufacturer for all of the water extraction bags from the beginning, from both isolator and bubble bags. And he also coined the term isolator. He named that product. So he was partnered up with Mila. And then eventually he came over and started helping me and making bubble bags.

1:53:42BubblemanSo he's been making the bubble bags. Other than my wife, he's made every bubble bag that's ever been made.

1:53:50Collin PalmerWe have I have a whole graveyard of bag sets. I just there's like a whole we save everyone.

1:53:56BubblemanWe say awesome. So, dude, I never even saved them. I have like, maybe I have a set of the original ones, like the first ones she ever make, I think are down in my garage still that she ever made. But other than that, I'm terrible. I never kept any articles that I wrote or any, I just don't have like that stuff.

1:54:17Collin PalmerI don't have my history. So we will have to get you get you some for relics sake.

1:54:24BubblemanYeah, that's the one thing I failed at having Sam as a mentor because Sam is the master. He has everything. He literally has like collections of the most insane shit. Thank you for watching.

1:54:53Pedros Grow RoomFrenchies, hash in the refrigerator back here. There's just a little bit left and I will save that for as long as I can. Nice dude.

1:55:03BubblemanFrenchie hash should bring it to Spain. I think they're doing like the, what is it called? The Calabash hash, the Calabash hash, the event that they started with. Oh, look at that. Spain. Look at that. I just said Spain. And then my wife brought me this. Holy shit, is that hot. Thank you, sweetie. Is that ginger lemon?

1:55:20Nikka TOh, do I have the best wife ever?

1:55:22BubblemanThank you so much, sweetie. You're the best.

1:55:24Nikka TYou gonna be out there, Mark? You gonna be out there in space?

1:55:27BubblemanI'm gonna, yeah, absolutely. How about yourself?

1:55:29Nikka TYeah, I'll be out there.

1:55:31BubblemanOh, wicked. Well, we'll definitely have to link up. Oh, yeah. Be nice to have a little hash gathering for Sam, you know, not an event, no tickets, no, but just a little plan on, hey, we're all going to just go here and we're just going to celebrate and smoke some hash. Doesn't even necessarily have to be at a club. I think Sam would prefer smoking hash almost anywhere other than a Club that was burning tobacco.

1:55:53Nikka TNaturally, a lot of us, you know, meet up for Chillum circles at Spanibus, like at the venue. You know, you'll see Baba Co there. You'll see, you know, Jonas Chillum with, you know, the Chillum crew. Lucas. Yeah. Yeah, I was at one of them last year.

1:56:13Tim ClarkThis is kind of an interesting question. I love Lucas.

1:56:15Nikka TI'm sad Lucas isn't making his making films anymore. He said something. I think we should.

1:56:21Tim ClarkA lot of the cats are like slowing down. In the tradition of a true scientist, Marcus, did Dave ever keep any journals or writings? Find a chance of his expenditures or any of his uses or anything that he bred or did he ever have anything like that in all of his articles for himself?

1:56:39BubblemanI mean, I couldn't say for certain. I just could say that he has everything that he had he has. So I'm going to go see Diana in Amsterdam in March after the event in Spain after Spanibus. We're hoping to... Thank you so much for joining us.

1:57:24Tim ClarkI'd be absurdly interested in that just just to see his perspectives relative to all of his breeding projects at scale and what got him outside of what reasoning that is given on hash charts for a lot of things that he's done throughout his history with cultivation and such and selections it's just there's there's just so much internal knowledge that something like that generally a scientist would record in you know those types of fashions And, you know, not in a public essence of sense, it just isn't an intrigue as a scientific, you know.

1:57:57BubblemanFor sure. I'm sure there's some incredible stuff and I'll look forward to going in and seeing her and Ryan and just sitting in his chair, you know, having a ball. I don't even know if I could sit in his chair. I got to sit in the chair next to his chair and just look at it. It's going to be overwhelming and emotional. Still seems so surreal that he's...

1:58:19BubblemanWell, you know what? Even when I think, oh, that he's gone, well, clearly he's not gone, because we're talking about him, invoking him right now. I always have to remind myself when my sort of selfish greed of, oh, he's gone, I can realize, well, no, I'll carry him with me for the rest of my life for certain. He gave me some incredible information, and as will many, many people in the community.

1:58:39BubblemanYou didn't have to... You know, know him personally to kind of know him, put himself out there enough on church and in other platforms where he shared his perspective so passionately that we all definitely got to know him. Oh, Diana says I can sit in his chair. Thank you, Diana. I just don't know if I could. We'll see. We'll see. Archive with a nug.

1:59:04Collin PalmerYeah, dude, that would be that would be kind of rad. To be able to do it there with Diana from Amsterdam, that would be really cool. And like show some of the things that you can uncover with her. That would be really neat to be able to see that. He's got the most incredible collection that is for sure.

1:59:24Ryan Dank AfWe've talked about it many times on here.

1:59:26BubblemanHe's the OG, inspirational hash man himself, dude. Static sift. Like imagine static sift. Imagine he just discovered that. He's so Sam. Of course... It's a perfect example of like how you don't have to invent something necessarily. You can just see something that someone else might be accidentally inventing, not even realizing they invented it. It could be lost. Kind of is like when you have the, there's, I'm in a lot of mycology groups and people are like, you gotta, you know, don't pick all the mushrooms, you know, make sure you leave some.

2:00:01BubblemanAnd then there's other people that are like, no, dude, you gotta pick them all. Like, are you kidding me? There's like hundreds of thousands of metric tons of mushrooms everywhere. They go to waste every year. And so you have both of these sort of sides of the coin. Some days I don't pick them all. I will say that there's been days where I've gone out and I've picked them all.

2:00:24Archive SeedsIt's the discovery process.

2:00:27BubblemanDude, it's the discovery process. Exactly. So I'd love to hear what everyone's puffing on. I shared a little bit of my hash earlier, but you guys must be all puffing on some nice things.

2:00:41BubblemanCan't even get a light on it. You got that dark jar, Colin.

2:00:45Collin PalmerNo, it's all, you know, I'll pull it out of the end of the light. Boom. This is what I'm hitting right here. This is some Z, Trop Z. And this is from Finest. They sent us some seeds. I guess they were doing some outcrosses.

2:01:06BubblemanOh, snap. Get in there. Get in there. Come on. Go clear. I hate when it won't go clear.

2:01:12Collin PalmerOh, did I get it? That dark rainbow flashed really great. Nice work, man. It covers that whole realm of terps in the GMO realm.

2:01:26BubblemanThis is MKU melt. Thank you, John.

2:01:30Aaron WaiteI got some garlic juice rosin here.

2:01:32Collin PalmerNice.

2:01:35Aaron WaiteFrom my garden. It's garlic juice, but it's the phenotype is leaning towards the dad. So it's really papaya, really strong papaya terpenes.

2:01:54BubblemanThat is so dank. It's ridiculous. It's like the two second press. How do you press your hash? I just hold my finger. Some sour. There you go, Nick.

2:02:08Collin PalmerIt is. There's a time in my life, Nick, that I wanted to just kill that plant. In like 2008, I was like,

2:02:19Nikka TI don't grow it at my spot. It does not like my environment. But Ash loves my environment. It's dry as fuck here. Sour wants like deep, dark New York basement with fucking a bunch of mold on the walls. That's what sour wants. And fed hella chemicals. Yeah, so sour don't survive well at my spot.

2:02:36Collin PalmerSour doesn't survive in soil though. We found that it's really hard to do well inside, especially when you don't have, as you said, the right environment. If it's too dry, man, good luck. You know, it's just really...

2:02:50Archive SeedsLikes hydroponics.

2:02:52Collin PalmerYeah. Likes the salts too, but we've seen success in living soil with it though.

2:02:59Pedros Grow RoomI have never ran and have no idea how to run a hydroponic system. I have grown in living soil ever since I started. Just what made sense to me.

2:03:10Archive SeedsHydro is like a lost art in today's world. The only people running like real hydro is wool, which is hydro, but it's not quite the same as like as many people because, you know, 20 years ago everybody had relatively small setups so everybody was trying to maximize their two lights their four lights and you know hydroponics can definitely maximize your your mass and your and your returns and so there was just a lot more people with like evangro systems and bubble buckets and uh nft and all that stuff and for certain strains um They definitely perform better.

2:03:50Archive SeedsI mean, Albert Walker is a great example of one that performs way better. We'd have six inch NFT tubes and we'd have football sized Albert Walker nugs and you won't even get a bud, you know, half that size from like a 15 gallon organic soil pot.

2:04:10BubblemanThat wasn't some PGR bud. That was like full melt bubble Albert Walker too. That shit was like, oh yeah, super quality resin.

2:04:19Archive SeedsOh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, people say that like hydro has no flavor or whatever. And it's I don't agree with that. I think that you can get more complex flavor from organic. Don't get me wrong. But you can get for certain for certain types of cannabis. The healthiest plant is what produces the best resin. And the easiest way to get a really healthy plant for some of these varieties is with hydroponics.

2:04:46Archive SeedsAnd that just plays a role in the quality people get and the ability for the grower to achieve it.

2:04:53Pedros Grow RoomAnd that was kind of what I was going to ask. If you had the same exact strain, the same exact clone, would growing in organic soil versus hydroponics affect the physical attributes of the bud, so to speak, as in would one be more dense than the other? 100%.

2:05:13Archive SeedsAbsolutely. And density.

2:05:15Pedros Grow RoomAnd I think density, we all know when, well, maybe not all of us, but Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:05:43Archive SeedsIt like not like if you've ever grown like DWC, you'll remember how big the fucking buds get. They get that type of fluffy.

2:05:53Nikka TYeah, that type of fluffy, but more like super fluffy.

2:05:56Archive SeedsAnd like, I mean, even back in the day, if you got an ounce of hydro, it's stuffed the sandwich sack. Right. Every time. And that was like, unless it was like Bubba or some strain that does get really dense in hydro, but any kind of sativa hybrid, it'd be huge, super silver haze buds that are, you know, as big as this, like that big. Yeah.

2:06:16Nikka TWhat happened to those like big blueberry buds and the big NL buds? Why don't we see those? Hydro.

2:06:22Archive SeedsThat was all people doing flood and drain with hydroton and all that kind of stuff. And they'd have shit where I'd like break the fucking mats.

2:06:29Nikka TYeah, I break the support beams with the root mass and shit. I remember that playing.

2:06:35BubblemanWe were doing it with champagne, BC hash plant. It was the, you know, you get like just these monster buds. I remember bringing Gypsy Nirvana into a room in early 2000 and he was peeking in the bottom of the room because it was kind of a secret little door you had to climb into and he just was peeking his head. And so the lower buds, We're bigger than his head of this BC hash plant.

2:07:01Nikka TPlus it's HPS, right? So a combination of hydro and HPS. Because now, you know, I'd say a lot of us are at least running LED or something of the like, or a combination.

2:07:14Pedros Grow RoomAt one of the facilities I work at, they have a cultivar strain of Talema that just grows six to eight inch cold is on top. But one of the, one of the biggest attributes that I look for when pheno hunting is obviously a high producer, but more of an airy bud.

2:07:40Collin PalmerYeah. I remember Kong being like the one that did that for us. Like those two was a big, yeah. Two liter bottle. Just don't, you know, it was big, big, big colas, man. And that was with Scott, Marcus. Remember Scott? Yeah. We used to grow Kong together outside and I would take care of all the plants and like, That particular varietal, you know, cause he was in a wheelchair.

2:08:05Collin PalmerIt's like, he couldn't get to it. It was just too, there's this massive, but I think.

2:08:11Archive SeedsSour diesel in hydro indoor gets huge.

2:08:16Collin PalmerYeah. Deep water culture with, I remember on the, like a big one, like we were all chasing like big root mass, trying to figure out, like you said, Fletch, like how do we maximize our space? You know, cause none of us had it.

2:08:30SpeakerUm,

2:08:31Archive SeedsYeah, at the end of the day, back then, you were trying to maximize yield per watt. That used to be, now it's yield per square foot because the limiting factor isn't the size of your power source, right?

2:08:45K InhouseYeah, yeah, yeah. What's y'all's opinion on HPS versus LED lighting on your resin? Have you guys seen a major difference in the two variations?

2:08:53Nikka TTemperature plays a big role, I think, in that variable aspect. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah.

2:09:03BubblemanI think that it took a while to catch up. Thank you so much for joining us today.

2:09:36BubblemanTo keep the plants from stretching, having the ability of far red. If you have part of your canopy that's been affected and isn't as tall as the rest, you can use red light, far red light in that sense to stretch that up and get it up there. He's got HPS spectrums now. I mean, I don't pretend to understand as much as he does, but I will say when I made...

2:10:01BubblemanWhen I made a bubble hash with his crop that he had infested with bugs on purpose so he could test his new IPM light, the predator, the tarantula predator, which is this crazy light. And we've had Chimera on here talking about the potential worry of damaging mothers on a genetic level, on a DNA level. But from a clone perspective and from a From a crop perspective to avoid the possibility of crop loss to like destroy powdery mildew spores to destroy or incapacitate broad mites and thrips and aphids and all these other things that have such a massive effect.

2:10:42BubblemanThat's how Thomas caught my attention. Cause I was like, dude, I'm not really interested in LED lighting. Although I had gone some years prior to Montreal and I went and met the maple butter boys there that were making, they were the guys that were getting 30% return off flower rosin from the where is my bike. And I went out and visited them. That's how old, long ago this was.

2:11:02BubblemanWe were all still on flower rows and it hadn't really quite shifted yet to hash, which it would very quickly. But they grew with an LED light that was like, it was some experimental light. It was the first one I'd really seen. The plants looked incredible. And that sort of led me down that pathway. Now, Grandmaster LED is on some other, you know, he's all about over engineering and making the heat sink super think and putting like five to 6,000 diodes on a light.

2:11:29BubblemanAnd so, yeah, the ability to spectrum tune your lights and to, I mean, I was looking for the photo. I've got, I had an amazing photo from one of his clients and it pisses me off that it's not in here anymore. But it was two plants that he had basically grown. Same food, same environment, same everything. Only the spectrum of light was different and the plants couldn't look more different.

2:11:54Nikka TIn fact, he had like, I believe... Jeremy from Build a Soil is doing one of them right now. Yeah, exactly. Two different LEDs. Looks great. Makes me want to try and get a sponsorship, man. What's good? Yeah, dude. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

2:12:06BubblemanI can introduce you to him for sure. I mean, we want more people working on the lights and figuring out...

2:12:11Nikka TYou know, obviously manipulating the resin production, right? Dead. My LEDs are, they've like turned to blurple after six years. It's crazy. They're just done. You know, my buds are tiny right now and I've ran like two runs under these old lights. So LEDs do go bad.

2:12:31Pedros Grow RoomYeah, they definitely have life cycles. It's about, I don't know, 10 miles up the road from me, so I could definitely hook you up with Jeremy as well. No, very well.

2:12:40Nikka TJeremy's a friend. I just want some of these new LEDs from Grandmaster. That's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:12:48Pedros Grow RoomI remember when I bought my first LEDs, it was... I think it's also your understanding of the environment and all of that in which

2:13:09Collin PalmerComes with that, which is how the plant metabolizes everything. And it all plays a role in itself. And I think there's a big conversation there. But I think now, as Marcus said, people are just starting to understand LEDs more. And we're starting to understand the need of, I think Nick said, the environment. And I'm sure, Fletch, you have some, you know, some ideas as well to throw in here.

2:13:30Collin PalmerBut I got to run in a large facility, both LEDs and HPS, and I respectfully think they're both amazing. I think they both have great attributes. So if Thomas's light can do exactly what HPS does, I mean, that's a no brainer.

2:13:44BubblemanI found that photo. This is the same cut, exact same cut, grown in the exact same room under a completely different spectrum.

2:13:53Pedros Grow RoomThere you go.

2:13:54BubblemanWow. That is pretty monstrous. So that that gets to the point where, you know, if you have the ability, like the lights I have from Grandmaster LED are the Borgs, the tarantula Borgs. They're his like highest level light. He's got like Voyager and a couple of others under there that are that are They still do a lot of, you know, there's one that does 60 different spectrums.

2:14:15BubblemanThere's one that does like 12. The one I have does over 500 spectrums that you can create, which is, you know, it's kind of like an F1 driver. Like you wouldn't want to give that key to that car to just any little person or they'll like, like early on people would be like, oh, you know, give me a light. I want to test it. And Thomas would immediately be like, well, how do you have any experience with LEDs?

2:14:37BubblemanBecause if you don't, When you fuck this up and then blame my company for it, it's not really a good look for me. You know what I mean? I want to at least, I'll take it if there's something wrong with my light.

2:14:48Nikka TI pushed Far Red too early on and like stunted everything. You know what I mean? Like when I first got Far Red lights, Far Red LEDs, you can really ruin some shit.

2:15:01Aaron WaiteNow I've been playing with these tunables for six years and I'm still learning.

2:15:06Pedros Grow RoomYeah, yeah. I was going to say I grew up under the...

2:15:09Nikka TThe six year ago technology is not what it is now. So the tunables now, like what Grandmaster is making, are way different than the tunable that I have from six years ago from Austria or Germany.

2:15:20Pedros Grow RoomI run the Science Dragon Alphas and they have tunable spectrums as well, but you can set a program. So it has a sunrise. It has, you know, it can change the intensity, the colors throughout the day. And it has a sunset. It's very cool. It's kind of above my ideal. So I have somebody who set it for me, but very cool.

2:15:45Jenn DoeYeah, I started working for Gavita around what, six, seven years ago, I worked for Gavita. So I got the full light training, as well as understanding the spectrums was the big thing because nobody could understand, you know, as all the LED companies started coming out because It was right around when LEDs started getting big. Nobody understood why Goveda didn't want to manufacture an LED light yet. And it was literally just because the technology was not there yet.

2:16:17Jenn DoeYou know, obviously since they've been bought out and disposed of. So now DLI, Dutch Lighting, has actually taken over. That's who used to own Goveda. But the technology they've came out with recently is amazing as far as the programmable. Thank you so much for joining us.

2:16:59BubblemanOkay, we use UVC, but as an IPM light, because I just introduced Thomas to Jair in Berlin last year, who it was the Gavita guy, who's now the Dutch lighting innovation guy. And he was showing us his new light. It was like a UVB light, his newest light.

2:17:17Jenn DoeI think it was the UBC. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the new one is the UBC.

2:17:22BubblemanI'll text them real quick because this is good to make sure that we.

2:17:25Jenn DoeYeah.

2:17:25Pedros Grow RoomYou've got to hook a brother up with some programs. Obviously know a lot more about spectrums than I do. Yeah.

2:17:34Collin PalmerReally good at scale. I've used those. I've also used several other companies. I don't even want to name them, but they weren't as good as those Gavitas.

2:17:47Jenn DoeYeah. And before Gavita got taken over by Scott's Miracle-Gro Hawthorne, it was incredible. Like just the technology and the investment. The advancements that they had. I got to go do my training over in Amsterdam and we got to tour all of the greenhouses. Amsterdam is the number one supplier for like flowers. And so we got to go and tour all these. So this is where, you know, the double ended lights actually originated.

2:18:17Jenn DoeIt's from these greenhouses in Holland. And so the Dutch has always been very up on their technology, like all the different testing that all these lights go through as far as testing that spectrum, finding the differences. Absolutely incredible.

2:18:32Pedros Grow RoomAnd my God, does light intensity and spectrum have a big factor, plays a big role in resin production?

2:18:41Jenn DoeYeah. And when we're talking like HPS versus LEDs, I think a lot of people don't really understand the difference in how those lights actually apply different situations for the plants. So, for example, rather than the heat coming off of the bulb, Thank you for joining us.

2:19:21Jenn DoeThank you so much for joining us.

2:19:47Jenn DoeThank you so much for joining us.

2:20:13BubblemanThat's what happens.

2:20:14GmlSomeone said UVC.

2:20:16Archive SeedsYeah. One thing I want to just build off of really quick that Jen was saying is that the effect the type of light you have has on your environmental parameters. So one thing that a lot of people say when they switch over to LEDs is, you know, you need to run a higher temperature and a higher humidity, right? Well, unfortunately, that's bad for your terpene production for a lot of strains or retaining those terps in your plants.

2:20:45Archive SeedsAnd so, you know, back when we were running HPS, if you had a room that was flowering and it's like 82 degrees, 83 degrees, you are cooking your weed for sure, right? With HPS, especially in a basement or something with a short ceiling.

2:21:00Pedros Grow RoomYeah, that's what's tough out here. Like I was touching on earlier with the relative humidity. Unfortunately, location forces me to add humidity to my room. And because of the location of my grow room, it forces me to add heat.

2:21:15Archive SeedsYeah, exactly. And some people need the heat from those lights to stabilize their room parameters as well. And so, you know, basically what a lot of people are seeing is that just like Jen was saying, the leaf surface temperature from HPS, you can run a colder room temperature, which in general is just going to probably for a lot of people, they're going to think their weeds a lot better.

2:21:37Archive SeedsSo there's a fine balance between You know, running all LEDs and having this environmental parameters that are maybe not as good for your, um, the quality of your herb, but then, you know, there is an efficiency advantage of like lower Watts, you know, using less Watts, getting more lighting from it. And, um, and also having less heat load in your room. I mean, in, in rooms that we've converted.

2:22:03Archive SeedsYou know, every LED light basically reduces the light, the, the BTU load for that, that specific light by about 30 to 40% for us. See what you said on HVAC.

2:22:17Pedros Grow RoomSee what you said again, GML. I felt like what you were going to say was important.

2:22:21GmlWell, no, there were, there were a couple of things. So the first thing that I was going to say on just what he was just mentioning, I actually, like when I first got into LEDs, I was told that it's got to run about five degrees But after all my experience, I actually think that you want to actually just match the surface leaf temperature from an HPS room or successful room, which is usually adjusting the ambient temperature by a couple of degrees.

2:22:46GmlBut in a lot of cases, it depends on where your ambient temperature is mounted, like where your thermostat is actually mounted. So that's the one thing I wanted to say that. But I just wanted to touch on the one light that you guys were talking about. I'm on the DLI website. I have pulled up their UVC light or their UV light. I'm looking at the SPIR report that they are showing.

2:23:06GmlAnd there is absolutely nothing that shows after below 300 nanometer. And UVC is 100 to 280 nanometer. So I can't see any in the SPIR report that he has there. But he's saying, you could ask him what percentage.

2:23:17John HatchWhich one is that? I'm on the DLI. It's like Jair's light?

2:23:22GmlYes, the UV 150 watt.

2:23:25GmlDouble-ended, you can actually pull up, if you just go to the website, you can pull it up and see. And it does give a risk about UVC, but like I said, when I'm looking in the sphere, I don't see any spike where the UVC should be. It's interesting.

2:23:38BubblemanYeah, we can ask him for sure. We'll probably see him in Berlin. Yeah. Thomas and I actually have a whole plan for an LED show to go really deep dive into LEDs and definitely wanted to make sure Jer was on that because he's been doing it for a while as well. And him and Thomas got along pretty well when we introduced them last time in Germany. Yeah, interesting.

2:24:02BubblemanYou can share that if you want on the screen, Thomas.

2:24:05GmlYou know what? I'm actually just in the jacuzzi. I've got a really sore knee, so I was just so concerned. I'm on my phone, but I have my laptop on the side here and my phone going. But if you just go to the DLI website, it's right up on the top, and then you can load it and you can share it. You'll be able to, like right on the top of the website, it shows their UV light and you can download the brochure and you can see exactly what I meant.

2:24:29GmlBecause like, I think this light does have certificate, like, I think it does have ETL too, doesn't it? Or what are the ratings?

2:24:36BubblemanI'm not sure. I guarantee you it'll have some because he just said that it does.

2:24:41GmlOh yeah. So like, if you, like, it's really hard, like, see, it does have UL and like, so it means that if it does have UL, it's got almost no UVC in it because to get UL certification with you, you can't with UV because it's harmful to humans. And like, if you're, it's a very small, like, I can tell you that five watts of it is not like just having five watts of it of the wavelength that we have, we can't even get it with it.

2:25:06GmlSo like we're working on new technology to be able to do it. So it must have next to no UVC in it if it's got certification.

2:25:14BubblemanYeah, you got to be careful with those UVC lights. They're definitely not. It's interesting because I'm sure some people will be like, I'll just deal with the bugs and other people are like, I don't want to have bugs. I personally don't want to have bugs. I haven't gotten them many times in my life, but they have shown up. Before, and I've just been like, oh, these are, anyone that's ever gotten them is like.

2:25:39Nikka TMy plants have been on this beneficial diet and I've been good. You know, as long as you don't have the people coming in with the bugs, that part, you know, once I got rid of that a year ago, it's beneficial diet. It's been great.

2:25:52BubblemanOr just like grabbing clones from anyone.

2:25:55Pedros Grow RoomI put it in chat earlier. I think it's the fortunate thing about running living soils that bugs are going to be there. And when you have pests, a lot of time, the way you treat them, especially in the soil, is finding a beneficial. So bugs are kind of an inevitable thing in living soil. And you just got to learn how to deal with them.

2:26:19GmlYeah, I think in living soil, like having Rove beetles and hypoacus are kind of key because, well, they're such tanks. I don't even know if you could kill them if you wanted to. But the rest of the predators that go around the plant, what we have seen is that using the UVC light for five minutes has a higher efficacy than using a whole bunch of predator bugs from what we've seen.

2:26:42GmlSo I really think that predator bugs are going to die out. I think that people in the next three years, commercial facilities will transition away from using them because it's a waste of money and it doesn't have as high of an efficacy. It's certainly expensive.

2:27:00Pedros Grow RoomYeah, they're definitely expensive.

2:27:03Nikka TLike, I don't... A lot cheaper than having issues, though. Like, for me, I actually don't really spend too much money on IPM other than, like, the $120 every three months on beneficial bugs. That's my only IPM cost right now. So, I'd say... And I haven't had issues. It actually becomes cheaper.

2:27:22Jenn DoeI think with any IPM, it's also a matter of applying the right amount of those bugs. you know i've been into some grows where they have introduced too high of a population of the beneficial bugs and now they've literally just swapped their problem so yeah the the the damaging bugs are going away but now there's such a high population of like rove beetles for example that they've now just they might as well have kept the other bugs

2:27:49BubblemanMy problem is I macro-photographed bugs and saw them pissing and shitting on the plant and I was like, I don't like, that's not medicine. That's not medicine.

2:27:59Nikka TNone of my bugs go up the plant. They all stay in the soil, in flower. None of the bugs that are in flower go up the stalk at all. They don't want anything to do with it. They're just hanging out in the soil and on the rim of the pots, basically. Yeah, that's kind of what I was going to say.

2:28:16Pedros Grow RoomI think that... Oh, sorry. That's okay. What I was going to say is that a lot of the bugs, the pests in living soil come from the soil. And most of the, not a beneficial that I know actually climbs onto the plant. They just dwell in the soil.

2:28:33Jenn DoeNow there's a lot that go on to the plant when you're dealing with like russets or broad mites like the different beneficial mites that you get like we actually attach those satchels up towards the top because they do go into onto the weed they're They're basically going to go where the bugs are, like they're going to go where the food is. So depending on the type of bug you're working with, if it's bugs that primarily, you know, habitate in the soil, your bugs are going to stay towards the soil because that's where their food source is.

2:29:04Nikka TYou mentioned timing, you know, like, so I just don't use any of those bugs that go up in flower. I'm using only, you know, the really the only one that kind of goes up is the orishi mite or what is it? Oreus. The oreus mite is like the only one that really wants to go up. And I only really use those in veg. I don't need them by the time I transition.

2:29:24Nikka TThey don't like to transition.

2:29:26GmlHuh? I was going to say Oreos actually, and this is something I was pretty upset because before when we were getting into developing the UVC, we actually talked with every major predator like company that had predators and we did a whole bunch of experimenting. And what I found is people are selling Oreos for in flour on a 12 and 12. Well, they need 18 hours of light to stay active and be eating.

2:29:47GmlThey go into, I forget.

2:29:48Nikka TThat's why I don't, I don't use them in flour. They die out by flour.

2:29:51GmlYes, exactly. And we, And, you know, we actually experimented too, like with Thrip infestations, we would buy Cucameras, Swirsky, Crazy Mike, Hypoasis, and Aureus, and we would order four times the amount and we could not touch the infestation. Um, like it, it, it, that's what it was. Yeah. Like we could not beat it.

2:30:12Nikka TLike it, like, Oh man, the Oreos are so aggressive. I would love watching them eat a Thrip.

2:30:17Pedros Grow RoomI guess this is one of the, one of the good reasons that we wash our hash so well, huh? Got to get that poop out of there.

2:30:25Nikka TGet it out. I just don't use the poop in, in flour. I haven't needed to, you know, take care of them in, before the transition.

2:30:33Jenn DoeYeah, well, and that's the preemptive strike, right? You don't want to send them into flower and poor condition.

2:30:41Collin PalmerYou know, we've experienced a lot of trouble with getting You know, from a commercial perspective, all the way just like to home grows, they come dead. You know, like I've had a lot of... You got to put them out on some white paper to look.

2:30:55Nikka TLook at them under a microscope and they're all dead. I stopped working with Arbico because of that issue. I didn't want to name that. I haven't had any dead bugs since I've gone over to Beneficial.

2:31:07Jenn DoeThey just got, you know, they have like feeder mites that they put in with them. So maybe Arbico is not actually including those feeder mites, which are, you know, what the, what the bugs are eating before they can get to your bugs. Right. So they actually, so when you get like beneficial mites, there's also another set of mites usually in there, which are the primary food source for those mites.

2:31:30Jenn DoeAs they're growing the mites, breeding the mites, and then sending the mites. And I actually noticed in one batch that I got that these little feeder mites were a fucking mess. Like, they were everywhere. And I had to call the company and be like, what the hell is this? Yeah, so company is a big thing. You've got to find a good supplier for those.

2:31:53Collin PalmerBut I think what I was going to get at with Grandmaster LED, I think you touched on it. I think at some point when the population is too great, no beneficial is going to help you. I mean, we've seen it at scale. We've seen it in a lot of respect and even smaller grows as we came up. So I think it's IPM management, as Jen just said, is very important to the success of your hash and success of your flower and All of these things together need to work in cohesion towards the end goal.

2:32:20Collin PalmerAnd you start at 100%, every point gets knocked back every time you do something until you get to that end.

2:32:29Pedros Grow RoomIt should definitely be a preemptive strike.

2:32:32Collin PalmerYeah, and be part of it. And these sachets, man, like you just have to be careful. And Swarovski, Camaris, I mean, there's a, you know, there's a lot of different types of mites. And I recommend not just buying one type, buy three at a time and let them make sure they don't eat each other. But

2:32:51Jenn DoeWell, and to add to that, Colin, like make sure that you're actually contacting the beneficial supplier because they're going to be able to help you diagnose. I mean, we're just throwing darts in the air if you're just trying to assume what bug you possibly think you might have. And then when you go through, you can see numerous ones and they have the list of them and they'll have the parameters that they need to live under.

2:33:14Jenn DoeLike you were saying earlier about You know, they need like 18 hours of light cycle or dark cycle. You gotta look through these and be able to stagger that so that you find one that's here and one that's there. But self diagnosing with that, I recommend actually call the company because You know, again, like if you have the wrong people running LED lights and then bashing the lights, right?

2:33:38Jenn DoeThe same thing happens with everything. So if you have the wrong beneficial insects in there, they're not going to do what you want them to. But like assumptions that we make offer very small, abbreviated, like this is what this bug is, this is what it needs. They definitely reach out to these companies because they're more than happy to talk to you and try and help. I know a lot of you can even send in a sample of your bug and they will identify it for you to get the right, the right beneficials basically prescribed.

2:34:09Collin PalmerYeah, and there's a lot of, as you said, there's a lot of different ways to get there. Green lace wings may be the right choice for white flies and things like that over top of a lady, you know, a lady beetle.

2:34:22Jenn DoeI mean, personally, I'm loving the idea of the grandmaster LEDs taking care of pests like that.

2:34:30Nikka TYeah, sorry. I'm open to it.

2:34:33GmlI was going to say, I don't think that they like, I'm not, I don't like to advertise that this is going to 100% replace sprain, but I'd like to say that it may be about 90 to 95%. The thing is, is when, once you damage their RNA for like a week or two, like it disrupts so many different ways of how they communicate, how they function, what their instincts are to do.

2:34:54GmlAnd after they've had that, it can even affect them making protein and they need that. Thank you for joining us today.

2:35:28GmlLike a wettable sulfur could be, is an also it's like for threat or for russet mites and broad mites, it's the cure and it's like super effective. I, but I, I really think that just having, you know, use like just doing one spray and then using it with UVC, like in the, when we were introducing spider mites into hundreds of mites that we could not beat We couldn't beat it.

2:35:49GmlAnd we had 10 minutes treatment. But with one spray at that mixture, we were able to completely eradicate them. And we did that in three different examples. One of them was a lab that was participating in this. And I've dealt with spider mites. And it's not something that you could beat with one spray with an essential oil. Usually, they would keep on coming back. And that's why I'm saying when damaging their RNA is a real big game changer, in my opinion.

2:36:12Jenn DoeAbsolutely.

2:36:12Nikka TI use Lost Coast for a long time. I'm just blessed that I haven't needed it, you know, because I think that's where I'm able to like stop it. But it'll also kill beneficials. You know, it'll also kill those other bugs.

2:36:25Collin PalmerQuestion. Timing. Timing. Timing is key. If the lights are disrupting the actual, you know, broads or whatever, Russ, is it going to disrupt the beneficials as well and do the same thing?

2:36:40GmlAbsolutely for ones that are on the plant, but not in the soil because the light is pointing up. So like it has no risk of harming any biology in your soil. And even if you wanted to turn the light around and have it within six inches, you'd only be hurting the top layer. So it's absolutely only going to. That's why I'm trying to say is what is the point of putting beneficials if you're going to instantly disrupt their RNA and make them not function how they would normally function?

2:37:02GmlIt's just it's a waste and it's going to keep everything cleaner. Well, like I said, we can go in there with a Thrip infestation. It breaks the rules of it. Of all the growing I've done in my life, I can wipe out any thrip infestation in a sealed room as long as I have full coverage in six to eight days from the testing that we've seen. And which, like, I'm sure, Pedro, I know you've dealt with thrips a lot.

2:37:20Pedros Grow RoomDude, I was just going to say, help hook a brother up, man, because thrips, fuck.

2:37:25GmlYeah, well, this is the cure. They're a problem of the past now, and it's as simple as using it for 10 watts for 16 to 20 square feet for 15 minutes a day, and you do not have to worry about thrips anymore. And like, uh, And, you know, thrips are such a hard one to beat. Like a lot of people say it's not a big deal, but they'll like they're easy to knock down, but then they just keep on coming back.

2:37:44GmlLike I see facilities that have perpetual rooms and it's like, man, they're in these cycles where they're stuck with them for years. And there was there was a facility that I saw that finally got to break that cycle with the predators and started by within their mums. And then each room they kept on resetting and they've completely broken it now and they don't have to worry about them anymore.

2:38:03GmlAnd Thrips.

2:38:04Nikka TThrips every time I open a bag of soil, but they just haven't been an issue.

2:38:08Pedros Grow RoomThrips are soil dwelling. So you've got to, in living soil conditions, obviously you've got to start at the soil.

2:38:19Jenn DoeI think they're also concrete. Bound, like anywhere that I've grown.

2:38:24Pedros Grow RoomI heard you say that before. We were talking about that before.

2:38:27Jenn DoeRight? They just like grow out of the concrete. Like it is so wild.

2:38:31Pedros Grow RoomSo, GML, we need to talk.

2:38:34GmlYeah, well, I was going to say what originally I thought, you know, so many people have said that, well, they're in the soil. And, you know, when we originally did it, we were only because of other people's R&D that we were basing a lot of stuff off. We were afraid to use it for longer than five minutes and we couldn't eat them. But only after, as soon as like I had decided, hey, I'm going to try stressing out the plant and doing two 50 minute treatments.

2:38:54GmlAnd it was only by accident that six days later, there were no thrips. And then we realized, oh my goodness, we can beat them. And we've replicated, we've done so many tests and there's now thousands of people using them. And like out of thousands of people using them, we have about three or four reports of it not being successful for them. And in those three or four reports, I asked for footage and I said, do you have full coverage?

2:39:13GmlBecause if you have four tents and you only put it on one tent, They're just going to migrate and come back. Like, you will never beat them. You need full coverage in the area.

2:39:22Nikka TAnyways. Yeah, hook Pedro and I up. We're in.

2:39:26Jenn DoeHey, me too. I'm sorry.

2:39:29Pedros Grow RoomAbsolutely. Like, I've got thrips here that I'm dealing with, so I will definitely, yeah. Let's talk.

2:39:37GmlFor sure. It's been a long time there, Pedro.

2:39:40Pedros Grow RoomIt sure has, dude. It's good seeing your face again.

2:39:43GmlYeah, what do you call it? The roundtable days. It's been a while, man.

2:39:48Pedros Grow RoomOh, my God, how I'd love to bring back the roundtable. That was a good show.

2:39:53GmlYeah, that was a lot of fun back then.

2:39:56Tim ClarkI've got an interesting question for you, GML. Have you had an opportunity to extrapolate what that light intensity actually does to the plant itself, aside from just the biome and essentially all of the pests in the environment that would be harboring by it?

2:40:13GmlWell, we're working with the fourth university now, so I don't have anything that I can report yet, but we definitely are going to have white papers published in the future here. We're working with four different universities. We just got in contact with another one that reached out to us in Canada that basically they, if anybody's getting a pesticide approved in Canada and they're trying to treat thrips, they go through this guy and he's going to be running a whole bunch of simulations in a university.

2:40:39GmlSo we're going to have some Well, we already have multiple people working on it, but we'll have some data, but I don't have anything to report on that. On spectrum tuning, though, we do have some stuff to report. We've developed a recipe that's called the Transcend Recipe, and I'm hoping this week we're going to be able to publish it. There's a company that I'm working with on the Vancouver Island that's had four crops in a row that's done over a 20% gain in THC and terpenes at a minimum.

2:41:03GmlIt's actually higher in some cases. And these are with two different cultivars that they have data running at 20 different crops previous. And they're also... exporting to germany and australia so they're not just using canadian labs like these thc and terpene numbers are being verified by everybody knows german labs there's like some of the toughest labs around um so it's really exciting it's conclusive basically that um basically the ability to use cool white is just it's a game changer like i a lot of times i reference cool white as metal halide but it actually has way more blue than metal halide and way less red So it's, um, and it's got way more blue than what the sun has.

2:41:41GmlLike the sun has anywhere from 25 to 30% blue, depending where you're located. And this has, you know, 36% blue, and I think it's about 18 or 17% red. So it's just doing something that you can't do outside. And we're just seeing the benefits of going, you know, just being able to have your internode spacing, tightening, um, keeping your stretch down and at the end reintroducing the blue.

2:42:03GmlAlso going from warm to cool seems extremely. I'm beneficial and that people are just smashing COAs. The one person that was doing that has all that data, they didn't even want to share it at first. They're like, they have such a competitive edge right now. They're like, Hey man, this is like, they didn't even believe they're like, did I screw up? Like on the very first test, they're like, how is this possible?

2:42:23GmlAnd, you know, I finally talked them into sharing the data and yeah, we're really excited about it.

2:42:30BubblemanI just love the idea of resin, different ways of growing resin and being able to test and see what I like. I know at this point in time that living soil seems to pretty much consistently be something that I love. That being said, I have certainly enjoyed resin from plants grown a whole variety of ways. What about the rest of the panel? Living soil or really open to whatever is the best flavor and taste of the resin that's put in front of you?

2:43:04Collin PalmerThe younger me would say it has to be a certain way, but over time I've learned that there's a lot of different ways that different individuals can approach a medium. And they may be more adept to one over the other. And sometimes it's just the way it is, you know, and what I love to aspire towards is organic living soil. But sometimes people impress me with their cocoa grown herb.

2:43:28Collin PalmerYou know, I mean, it's I'm not going to sit here and say that you can't do that well. So I think for myself, just speaking for me, I think it's about the journey that you're on and how well you're you're You're expressing the things that you're learning through the art form of growing cannabis. And that sometimes can be LED lights. It could be salts. It could be organic.

2:43:51Collin PalmerBut that path is very individual. So that's my take.

2:43:57Jenn DoeI've done just about everything with the exception of full hydroponic. So synthetic, organic, indoor, outdoor. I'm having to work with what I have is kind of been one of those things. And I think what it really comes down to is not necessarily the inputs as much, whether it be lights, newts, soil, all that, as it is being able to pay attention to your plants and anticipate their needs in each situation.

2:44:25Jenn DoeYou know, I've It's very hard to tell the difference between my organic and my synthetic no matter how much shit people talk about this and this synthetic brand or that or whatever. It really just comes down to like being able to read your plant and, you know, uh, understanding the process that you're using and synthetics are not the same as organics, you know, and understanding those differences and why, and then how to actually apply those to your given circumstance to have the best outcome for the plant.

2:44:59Jenn DoeSo, yeah.

2:45:02BubblemanWell said.

2:45:03GmlOne thing that I, oh, one thing I was just going to quickly touch on that's, I don't mean to change the topic, but if anybody that likes sun grown stuff, one point I wanted to bring up about the sun, is it like any, like basically if you're growing outside, you've got 5% UVA and about 0.2% UVB. And I think that plays a critical role with the blue, which is 25 to 30% also.

2:45:25GmlWe've actually developed a UVB UVA that's going to be coming out in a couple of months that will let you match that if you want to match the sun Or even use more UVB than what the sun has. I think using more UVB is way more beneficial. And any of the side-by-sides that we've seen, it's like UVB blows away UVA in every way. Sorry for going off topic there.

2:45:45BubblemanIt even rhymed. Anyone else want to answer that question?

2:45:51Tim ClarkIt's not actually really off topic if you think about it, because in a lot of the white papers and also in our side by side studies we've done progressively growing through indoor mixed light and then ultimately full sun outdoor. We've seen in the hemp spectrum, aside from also inside of cultivators, cultivars that are THC based, We've seen a variance of side product cannabinoids that actually get formed in these processes relative to the ancillary intensity of the light that is produced from an LED from mixed light down to the indoor environment versus the oxidative stress seems to be intrinsically reduced From the direct sun relative to, of course, as you have just stated, there would be an excess of the UVC or UVB light intensity coming into that spectrum, which seems to be a catalytic energy that actually drives these cannabinoids and ancillary metabolite productions.

2:46:44GmlAbsolutely. Well, it's like a stress response and they just, they're trying to defend themselves and they, they produce more resin. Now indoor HBS, they have like a lot of people try to bring up UVA and like It's one of the reasons why HPS performs better. And I don't think it is really one of the reasons because it's like 0.2% of UVA. So there, and there isn't, it's almost nothing in it.

2:47:04GmlIt's the warm temperature that people have a lot of success with. But yeah, I believe that it all, it all falls together.

2:47:10Collin PalmerColor textures. I think I wanted to ask you your questions on Thomas is, you know, being someone who grew up growing cannabis on the East Coast and then has been to the West Coast to grow cannabis, I've noticed the color temperature is completely different. And then through the season, the color temperature on the East Coast actually evolves and changes. It's more it's more like seventy two hundred by fall.

2:47:33Collin PalmerRight. Like you're you're. But in California, you're like at fifty two hundred. It's like bright sun. You know, is there a difference in LEDs to be able to tune that versus HPS? And what is that if there is?

2:47:49GmlWell, you absolutely like with a spectrum tuning light, well, depending on what it is, but you definitely and what the ability is. But if you have the ability of a very wide spectrum range and you have the ability to change it throughout the day, you actually can. We do have people that are actually like changing the spectrum 15 times through the day. And I think it's a It's like trying to match the sun.

2:48:08GmlAnd like, I wouldn't experiment with that on a commercial level yet, but just to, you know, but a lot of people are definitely playing with that and the ability is there. Sorry, what was the other part of the question?

2:48:20Collin PalmerSo, you know, the first part was how the, if you can tune the light and then the second part is, is how much do you think the light spectrum plays a role in the development of that? As, as Tim just said, development of the, of the VOCs and the secondary compounds, you know,

2:48:37GmlI do think it plays, I think it does play a massive role. Like the plant, the bottom line is plants like more, they like the red spectrum more than they like the blue. Like they just do, especially in flower. And it's like, that's why if you, if you flower with like a kind of a bluer dominant spectrum, there's a lot of companies, well, not a lot, but there's a few companies that have developed a lot more bluer based spectrums where that are like 4,500 Kelvin and 4,900 Kelvin.

2:49:03GmlAnd I, I don't really agree with it personally, because I think that it extends the flower time. You get some good quality, but it kind of hurts the yield. Like, I think it's a great spectrum to use for part of the crop, but not one that if you're going to, if you can only pick one spectrum as a base, I don't think you should be using it.

2:49:20GmlIt should, like traditional spectrums usually, and I don't even like using Calvin, like you should do everything in usually like by colors and nanometer. But the reason why I go Calvin is just kind of a reference, like traditional LEDs. Um, when LEDs first came on the scene after they kind of evolved for a bit, they were around, they came to around 3,500 Kelvin where HPS are around 2,100 Kelvin.

2:49:42GmlSo there's like a, and you know, HPS have about 4% blue where in something that's got, um, 3,500 Kelvin is gonna have around 20% blue. So, and then also the biggest other big difference is when with HPS, they have a 600 to 620 nanometer wavelength, and they also have 10.4% far red. When you go to a 3,500 K spectrum, they're using a 660 nanometer, um, wavelength. That's a different red.

2:50:07GmlThat's not an Amber color. And they're also usually having under two to 1% far red or less because that what's in the white diode. So when someone comes from HPS and they're like, oh, LEDs suck. It's because they're not, they're not, they're not getting the same results because the temperature of the light is so different. But if you match that same temperature, um, I believe you can get the same results.

2:50:29Collin PalmerYeah, I actually agree with all of what you just said there. I mean, we had seen that just with different growing, different varietals from east to west and just noticing that spectrum. And then obviously going inside, it's really clear. Like I use PL lights, man, and I would never recommend those to anybody. And we had some real issues with those. To your point, the spectrum was completely off.

2:50:53Collin PalmerLike I, we took a... We took a hit using those and we had to take them down and figure out what to do next because it was, you know, you're sold stuff. You know, these people out there just trying to sell you the wrong stuff, especially when we bought those. That was probably 10 years ago at this point.

2:51:10GmlWhat I see, one of the biggest problems right now with LED companies, they're selling people greenhouse lights indoor. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Like people say, oh, it's high bay. It's because of high bay that you do not need. to use um well like when you use a greenhouse light indoor your pcb which is the board that the diodes are on they're running way warmer um if you do want to raise or lower your lights you you can't or like the uniformity just goes to crap and it just doesn't make sense to me personally and i think that like a lot of people will like and also a greenhouse spectrum which is a a 660 nanometer dominant spectrum and so many companies do this to hit over three micromoles per joule when it's just That's a great greenhouse spectrum because you have the rest of the sky filling out everything.

2:51:55GmlBut if you start looking at a lot of spectrums and you start comparing spectrums and you're like, whoa, why is that spectrum so much fuller than the others? And what people are just driving the 660 nanometer diodes for a higher efficacy on paper, not because they're a lifelong grower, because they have what's best for, not because they're doing what's best for the grower, in my opinion.

2:52:17Collin PalmerUnderstood. Well, thanks for answering that, man. I appreciate it.

2:52:20GmlNo worries.

2:52:24BubblemanI'll bring it back to some hash making, which I think all of the conversations really play into hash making from the perspective of where do you get your resin from, sun-grown resin from Aaron, who's on a budget, or you're building your own facility and trying to grow the best resin you can and using an LED that offers spectrum tuning. Yes, indeed. I'd love to... Ask this group a question while I have everyone here.

2:52:52BubblemanLet me just find my, what I'm looking for. Ah, there it is. I am somewhat organized. Back to hash making. Or I guess, yeah, for techniques. This is a good one. How do you adapt your washing process based on different cultivars We're starting material. And I guess by that would be the differences of resin. Like when you get a dry resin versus a sticky resin, how do you adapt your hash making skills for, and really even recognizing the resin, right?

2:53:33BubblemanHow do you recognize the resin first to even know in the first place that you're gonna have to wash it this way versus that way? I'd love to hear anyone on the panel's answer for that.

2:53:43Pedros Grow RoomI think that's part of the pheno hunting is that you want to find the correct resin. You know, you don't want something that's going to be greasy. You want more of what they call the sticky sandy.

2:53:56Jenn DoeI don't know. I've had some really great greasy stuff that by those standards, which I've definitely heard, you know, they would just get passed up.

2:54:09Pedros Grow RoomDo you think it was a lower yield because it was the greasy or did it match?

2:54:15Jenn DoeI think that when we are so focused on yields, It doesn't make sense to me. I've never been pushing for the highest percentage. Up until the last couple of years, I wouldn't even test my percentage because it didn't matter. It was all my product. So to put that obstacle in my way of trying to achieve a certain yield when really I go into the washroom with the intentions of getting as much yield as I can.

2:54:48Jenn DoeSo trying to actually apply those numbers and abide by some sort of a standard that this should do, like, it just doesn't make sense, you know? Yeah.

2:55:00Pedros Grow RoomAnd it sure does economically if you're a business. I was going to say in a homegrown sense, absolutely. But I guess I've been in the commercial market for four or so years running a processing lab and Unfortunately, you know, people have investors and shit, you have bills to pay.

2:55:19Jenn DoeBut that's where we're losing a lot of this really amazing hash. So let's talk about the strains that just get forgotten because it is being commercialized and because that bottom line is the biggest situation that they're looking for. You know, so I think we do need all these little craft farmers that are continuing to keep a lot of these cultivars. Otherwise, they're going to get lost in the fact that they put out Four percent instead of seven percent, you know.

2:55:48Nikka TYou know, you also try and wash like something like an ACDC and get 0.0003% and it's just not viable to anybody. You know, I think we first learned that lesson when a lot of these, you know, hemp cultivars or CBD heavy cultivars hit the market. We're like, oh, let's turn a whole room into medicine. You know, we, we, we fucked everyone, you know, to all of us rather save it for those loans.

2:56:15BubblemanWell, it's a fine line of economics. There's a balance. Exactly. There's a balance, right? It's like a lot of the companies will open the margin as much as they can, which shrinks out more of the rare cultivars. There are also companies that are trying to keep those rare cultivars, even knowing they're going to get much lower yields, which equal much lower margins. And it just becomes at one point in time.

2:56:37Nikka TThank you so much for joining us.

2:56:57Jenn DoeDealing with the greasy versus dry. It's also a matter of just fine tuning your room to be able to wash the greasier strains as opposed to just assuming you can't wash. Because I think a lot of people also Other than yield, I think they leaned away from the greaser strains because let's face it, if your room's not cold enough, if you're not working fast enough, like it's a mess.

2:57:21Jenn DoeLike there's more risk to washing that regardless.

2:57:25Pedros Grow RoomYeah, temperature becomes much more of a need, I guess, when washing those clothes. Thank you for watching.

2:57:56Nikka TI don't know cultivars. I think that it's really, it came from the Sherb or something along those lines or wherever that initial trait came from. It's creating these melted oblong, not round heads. So it's, and then also, you know, to go along with that variable, you're going to have a thicker waxy cuticle. It's just not viable almost, you know, to turn it into a mechanical separation, if you will.

2:58:22Nikka THave you guys seen this phenomenon?

2:58:24Archive SeedsIn that sense, if the heads stick together, yeah, in that sense, clusters are like five heads and it gets stuck in your 220 bag.

2:58:31Pedros Grow RoomThat's what I was going to say. And then you have different, you have your good hash, you have your good resin. Catching in different screens, in the screens that you didn't necessarily want. But on that note, a couple years ago, I pulled the 160 to 220, and it made phenomenal, phenomenal hash.

2:58:54Nikka TI pull that back every time.

2:58:57Pedros Grow RoomYeah, we just separate in the lab.

2:59:03Pedros Grow RoomScope and it goes where it needs to go.

2:59:06Collin PalmerYeah. You know, I wanted to jump in and say, you know, the way that we do it is we take the one gallon bag set that Marcus makes and we do actual batches using that first. And then we look at the yield on that. We don't do jar tech anymore. That's not for us. Just speaking on our team's behalf, we don't feel like that's a great representation of actual yield to scale.

2:59:30Collin PalmerAnd because the one gallon is a one to five, five to... You know, so on and so forth. 44. We feel like that is a better representation of what goes through the process and comes back to us. And then we do that three times to make sure that we're putting in it. Say that again. How much weight are you putting in the one gallon? So we put around, I think, 500 to 800 grams.

2:59:57Collin PalmerRight.

2:59:57Archive SeedsSo that's a good yield and bad yield from that.

3:00:00Collin PalmerSo a good yield from that is like anywhere from one to three percent and if we we see three to four you know you should you should be able to see scalable results from that based on your yield you know what I mean so I think like the way we look at it looking at just looking at some data you know let's open it up um we that is that's the best representation of Being able to scale that amount in terms of pounds to, you know, grams to pound.

3:00:34Collin PalmerAnd that's just what's worked for us over the years. So yeah, so anywhere like, like I said, depending on the varietal, if we're washing something like a sativa, if we get a 2%, we feel like that's really great. If we're washing a contemporary varietal, we see four to five, we feel like that's great and above. That's, you know, I think hearing people hit 7%, I want to understand of what, Right.

3:00:58Collin PalmerAnd what are you measuring?

3:00:59Pedros Grow RoomSounds like you're beating the shit out of your material and just including it.

3:01:04Collin PalmerYeah. So we want to make sure, you know, we feel like you were getting actual desirables as, you know, I think it should be called desirable heads rather than these tails and whether other particulate matter that you make. And the other thing I wanted to kind of talk on is the evolution of these, these, these varietals have, You know, clearly you can see the 160 bag is getting better and better material, right?

3:01:29Collin PalmerAs you pull it. And it's really, I think, starting to merit perhaps even more work bags for us to get to that 160. So when we get to the 160, we can actually collect it and there isn't a particular- Check out the pro lines.

3:01:44Nikka TProline from Rawls and Evo, not to plug anything away from the bubble bags or anything, but they came out with basically everything from a 25 to a 40, a 60, there's an 80, there's a 90, there's a 100, there's a, I think it's a 110, 120, 140, 160, 180, 220, and there's even a 250.

3:02:10Collin PalmerNice.

3:02:10Nikka TWe double up our bags, but don't have... It's just fun to play with that many different microns now. Now you can make a full spec that's a different separation, you know?

3:02:22Jenn DoeI'd really like to see a 170 and a 150 added in there.

3:02:27Nikka TI think there's a 150. Sorry. Sorry, Jen. I think there is a 150.

3:02:32Jenn DoeI'm with you, Colin. I double stack my bags as well. Yeah, so to see those microns maybe at the very top step down a lot slower, that would be phenomenal.

3:02:46Archive SeedsYeah, I think you had a 190 bag, didn't you?

3:02:49Nikka TYeah. Oh, yeah. I think the pro line literally has like all I mean, I skipped over some of them.

3:02:55Jenn DoeI mean, if we could go like 220, 210, 200, 190, 180, 170, 160. You could go down by my beyond one and have 100 bags.

3:03:08BubblemanI know.

3:03:09Jenn DoeI feel like I feel like people tend to like take those top bags for granted, you know, but that's where the filtration is. And was it you that said earlier, Colin, like the the more you separate those bags or who was saying it, the easier it is to actually filter that out. Yeah. So same thing. So not necessarily getting down to where we're separating, you know, our our Our actual like cash bags, but I'm talking just the filtration at the top.

3:03:40Jenn DoeI would love to see at least two more bags. Yeah, we have not having to double that because I do. I double my 190. I double my 160. So if I could stagger that in between there, that would be phenomenal.

3:03:55BubblemanYeah, that's bubble hash right there. Not not rosin.

3:03:59Collin PalmerWe made this one. This is who's this?

3:04:02Pedros Grow RoomThat's that's the homie in Spain. Yeah, I was gonna add that earlier is that maybe everybody here needs to understand that the point that I look at all comes from a rosin stance. I usually don't save much for the actual hash.

3:04:20Nikka TMarcus wants to talk about Fiatella or that tech or going in that direction.

3:04:27BubblemanYeah, I definitely like to hear your perspective of what you guys think about it.

3:04:31Nikka TFiatella is just new age hash. Really, in reality, the reason for hash back in the day was for transportation and for, you know, All right, guys, thanks for joining us. We'll be right back.

3:05:07Nikka TIn essence, Piatella has been done before, but the boys at Uncle's Farm really pushed the boundaries and started using only specific cultivars and specific micron ranges and calling that Piatella. And that part I respect. I don't think everyone should be calling the same technology Piatella. Thank you for watching.

3:05:47Nikka TJust little, little details. And so, you know, respect where respect's due. I think Piatella is for Uncle's Farm. I think that there's Piatella-like consistencies and people are playing with curing, you know, resin rather than rosin. Totally. That's my take on it.

3:06:09BubblemanAnyone else have a take on that? Appreciate that, Nickatee.

3:06:13K InhouseYeah, man, I have a take on it. So, yeah, I partially agree with you, Nick. You know, I, you know, I hear in-house, you know, I just dropped five different versions of a Piatella SKU that we run. It's a it's it's a way to pay homage to Uncle's Farms. It's a way to pay homage to the craft and, you know, the history behind hash making. But at the same time, I feel like, you know, that's like saying, you know, that's like saying one company owns like a culture batter.

3:06:44K InhouseLike that doesn't make sense in my mind. I feel like there's multiple variations of it. So from that standpoint, you know, I do respect it. I still respect it. But at the same time, I'm also on the fence about it in the sense where, You know, we run a few different versions of our Piatella and you guys are completely right. Only certain genetics can that we feel can actually be of that consistency.

3:07:06K InhouseSo one of those would be a swamp water fumes. One of those would be a modified grapes that we run that hit the highest terpene content we've ever hit was 13.4%. And then we've also done a black maple rainbow push pop. And then I've done a maple dunks as well. So we've tried a bunch of different variations. We don't do every single cultivar that we have in that consistency because they have to have a certain grease level.

3:07:31K InhouseThey have to have a certain rate at which they cure. For us, you know, we have some of our own techniques that we use. We don't use cellophane wraps. We don't use foils. We try to keep it as clean as possible. Marcus, are you able to get onto my Instagram And show these guys one of the videos that we have of our melt actually curing.

3:07:55Nikka TI think your shit's fire. I think what you guys have been posting and even what I've seen in person and tried in person as far as your cured melt, you know, I think it's fire. I think it's super, super fire. What video is it? There's only six up here.

3:08:10K InhouseYeah, so if you go to the, there's one at the bottom. It's like a, it's just got like a jar on it. I'm not able to see your screen.

3:08:17Tim ClarkThere's two pictures.

3:08:19K InhouseYeah, there's two with jars on them. And those ones are the, those are the videos that I would kind of like to show everybody just to kind of show we've been in the time lapse of the curing. So go to the ones in our messages that I sent you. If you can go to any of those videos, there's two videos with jars in there, with mason jars.

3:08:38K InhouseAnd you can see the different levels of greasing down. So one of those is going to be what we did. We did swamp, we combined them actually. We did swamp water fumes and modified grapes. And so that's in one of the videos. And we actually like did a really like close up, like micro view of the actual head. So It gets pretty creative.

3:09:00BubblemanI like it already.

3:09:03K InhouseSo that's like at a 12-hour grease down. So that's just room temperature, cold cured water hash. But only certain strains can do this. So you can see the actual mechanical separation of the heads.

3:09:17SpeakerHmm.

3:09:19Archive SeedsYeah, I mean, this happened to the very first batches of freeze-dried hash I ever made. You know, like as soon as... For sure, for sure. This is just what happens when you leave your hash out. I didn't really understand, like... The whole it like I understand it like to me it's more than anything it's a branding exercise like you've created a brand around a certain type of um cured product which I guess I get but um I never like I just thought it was what we used to call uh um you know it was oxidizing or whatever huh I said you all used to call it white it out Yeah, whited out, chutted, whatever you want to call it.

3:10:04Archive SeedsAnd it was like, it wasn't that the cash was bad. It's just that we all knew that it had... Different. You know, it's like, yeah, it's like leaving the milk out, you know? There's some variables though, but...

3:10:15Ryan Dank AfIt's turned into something else a little bit.

3:10:17Archive SeedsAnd it's lost some of its original, unpreserved luster, and it's turned into something else. And I never would have thought that that was like a brandable...

3:10:31Archive SeedsUh, like Ben, like something that people were like wanted actually, but I guess like for certain strains or certain flavors, maybe it, it, uh, if it whites out, they're not calling it Piatella.

3:10:42Nikka TYou know, if it's doing those things, they're not, they're not calling it Piatella. It has to stay in that greasy form. It has to slice like butter. It can't crumble.

3:10:51Archive SeedsYeah, no, I understand. But part of that is just making sure that it's not exposed to air and being in a very small container. You know what I mean? Like, that's all it is.

3:11:00Jenn DoeWell, and part of that is also controlling and understanding the different temperatures. So every time the topic of Piatella comes up, I laugh because if we recall, the reason that I was invited onto Hash Church 10... Thank you for joining us today.

3:11:28Jenn DoeThank you for watching.

3:11:48Jenn DoeA true six star, very melty, delicious full melt. And when allowed to sit room temperature and to convert, you know, that's what we had was Piatella, that very first melt shot that anybody ever really saw for me that kind of spiraled onto that.

3:12:05Nikka TIt goes back to temple balls, you know, it goes back to seeming for exportations.

3:12:12Jenn DoePiatella's a little different. Yeah.

3:12:15BubblemanPiatella is foaming out the hash. It's creating that texture by the aromatic volatiles trying to expand and leave, but they're sealed in a cellophane bag. And that's why anyone that's ever opened the cellophane bag You see the volatile organic compounds all over the cellophane. And it's almost like you've done an extraction on the volatile compounds to get them to the surface. I remember the first time I saw Lorenzo in Barcelona crack this like 100 gram bar open.

3:12:49BubblemanAnd everyone was like, oh, it's amazing. And they were all loving it. And it did smell amazing. But to me, I was like... That six-star bubble that you could have just preserved as six-star bubble. And of course, if you go and extract all of these aromatic volatiles into a small section of right where you open the bag, it is going to seem like it's even crazier. But to me, it just hurt my soul a little bit.

3:13:13BubblemanAnd I thought, you know, to me, I can definitely say that what I knew as whiting out hash, Was not Piatella. That was, that was, I mean, I was the one that showed a lot of people how to like not dry their hash properly. So I was taking my responsibility that a ton of people, and I mean a ton of people were not drying their hash properly for a very long time.

3:13:38BubblemanAnd they'd roll it all up and it would just have moisture and it would just have that funky smell. Piatella does not have a funky smell in any way, shape or form. There's no like moisture smell that I get from Piatella. It just smells like really exceptional hash that you've done this sort of VOC extraction on so that now it's all on the outside. I think back then when hash was foaming up the way it was, it was moisture in the hash trying to leave the hash.

3:14:08BubblemanBut we, I wasn't wrapping the hash in a sealed bag for two months.

3:14:13Nikka TLike how you make Piatella. No, I don't even think that's how they're making it.

3:14:19Jenn DoeNo, that's not how they're making it.

3:14:20Nikka TThey're making it in a jar initially. They sweat it in the Piatella foil.

3:14:24Ryan Dank AfWhip the hash in the jar, right?

3:14:26Jenn DoeOh yeah, you do it in the jar first.

3:14:27Archive SeedsI thought that was a flaw, not like a, you know, I thought that was just me keeping the shit out. Yeah. Right.

3:14:34Jenn DoeI mean, I caught so much hell. Like, literally, I stepped back from the hash scene for like months and months because I caught so much hell over it until everybody started thinking about terpenes and how they worked and how they operated. And, you know, there was a small handful of people that would actually listen to me and, you know, take what I was saying and be like, oh, because I was just trying to start a conversation about it over something that I was observing that I thought needed to be discussed, you know, so like, Fletch, you remember that, Nick?

3:15:05Archive SeedsYeah, yeah, when you pull the, when you pull the parchment paper out, the parchment paper would be like soaked, you know, from the, like, vac sealed packets of freeze dried hash that was, we just keep it in the, you And like that would happen to all the BHO before that too. You remember like the, if it ain't shattered, don't matter. And everybody was putting their shit in a fucking toaster oven to burn all the turps off so it wouldn't shut on them.

3:15:34Archive SeedsYou know, it's like, we knew it wasn't water even on BHO back then because you were literally cooking the water out in a toaster oven. That was the approved tech at the time.

3:15:46Jenn DoeYep.

3:15:47Archive SeedsThis is pre-

3:15:53Archive SeedsPre-vacuum oven for BHO even. This was like open blast and use a torch to blow off or a hot plate. You know, I mean, this is like when we were, this was still in the pizza box days of bubble hash. 99, baby.

3:16:17K InhouseYeah, Fletcher, I tried your, when you guys did your collab with Uncle's Farms, I tried some of that hash. It was phenomenal. Like, great job on that, man. How was that? How did that collab go? How did that come about? Do you mind explaining some of that?

3:16:30Archive SeedsThat's with my partner in Oregon.

3:16:31K InhouseGotcha.

3:16:33Archive SeedsYeah, and it's just, it's the same thing. I mean, it's just the process of letting the hash cure out. Like, to me, to me, the process, I didn't, I didn't really, like I said, I didn't really realize it was like, you know, something unique necessarily other than uh it's like a 30-day aged steak right yeah yeah nicest steak put it in the exact correct environment and let it cure out and it it you know it does whatever it does to that product and and like you're saying some hash won't do it because it just doesn't have enough turps in it yeah sometimes it'll just butter up on you it's like Yeah, it's going to be the low building varieties that do it the best, right?

3:17:13Archive SeedsFor sure, for sure.

3:17:14Jenn DoeAnd a lot of that is determined by the THCA percentage that's in there too versus, you know, so it's THCA levels Thank you for joining us today.

3:17:44Jenn DoeThank you. Thank you. Thank you.

3:18:12BubblemanA little squeegee, just like a dabber, but it'll be a terp squeegee for the Piatella cellophane so you can get it back into your hash. Sorry, go ahead, Jen.

3:18:21Jenn DoeI think that squeegee idea is fabulous. The Opinel.

3:18:25Nikka TClassic Opinel. They're all using an Opinel knife to cut the Piatella. Yeah. It's all part of it.

3:18:32Jenn DoeHonestly, I think the only really like new thing that they did was after curing it in that jar and reincorporating it, they're then molding it and then wrapping it into the cellophane. So like their process isn't necessarily like all new, like Fletch is saying. I mean, we were getting that consistency back then, but Just like you, Fletcher, like I got, I got hell for that consistency. And now to see another company being like highly praised and like, oh my God, like it's amazing.

3:19:01Jenn DoeLike they literally took that same thing and then they wrapped it in different packaging and put their own name on it. But I think that's, that's how life is. It's timing.

3:19:13Archive SeedsLife is timing. And it's, and it, like I said, it's like a 30 day age stake. It's, it's appealing to the right consumer.

3:19:20Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah.

3:19:20Archive SeedsWith the type of product you're producing. And if that's reconstituting hash in one way or another, just like rosin is reconstituted bubble hash or whatever, you know what I mean? It's just filtered. That's it. But it's filtered and then whipped up or whatever process you want to do. And if you want to put it in a pen, there's a whole different process to that. And it's just what is your process for the strains that you have and how do you manufacture them to...

3:19:49Archive SeedsThank you so much for joining us.

3:20:11Archive SeedsIf I want to make any of the other products and I have the knowledge, I can just make it from that. So, you know, if you have the starting point, then you really can, you can make your own Piatella from the five grams you bought. You could make a melted down block. You could turn it into a pen. You could do whatever you like with it. You could rosin it yourself.

3:20:29Archive SeedsYou could turn it into, Fresh Press. You could turn it into Cure Draws and you could do whatever you like as long as you have perfectly preserved trichome heads. So to me, it's like going to the farmer's market and do you buy the oranges, the already pressed orange juice, or do you say, fuck all that, I'm going to go to the grocery store and buy the shit in a can?

3:20:51Archive SeedsYou know, what's your choice?

3:20:53Jenn DoeYeah.

3:20:56Archive SeedsI like just the oranges myself and then I'll press them at home.

3:20:59BubblemanMe too. Throw in some carrots and some ginger or no?

3:21:05Archive SeedsBut it's not convenient, right? Yeah, I'll take the smoothie for sure. The little mix, the little carrots for your eyeballs.

3:21:12Collin PalmerYeah, there you go. Yeah, I think all these techniques are Are important for people to try. I think it's just, you know, cured hash has been around for a long time as we all talked about here. I think these different ways to present them, as you said, Marcus, is perhaps the the crutch that gets everybody, you know, talking about certain techniques being different, you know, or better than the other.

3:21:42Collin PalmerBut they all, you know, they all I think they all present a different perspective of the plant and that's why I love them. I think, you know, I love fresh breasts for reasons that cold cure will never touch, right? But others have different opinions on that. So, you know, I like those super fleeting, volatile, you know, compounds. I think that's just my palate. So...

3:22:12BubblemanWell, it's nice that it's all available to everyone. So you can have a different palette from the person next to you. And that's, that's a beautiful thing. You know, whether it's you want to smoke BHO or you want to smoke one of the many different, you know, yeah, fresh press or, you know, it's a very tough thing to get at a dispensary just because of temperature.

3:22:36Pedros Grow RoomAnd sometimes, and sometimes just like for a girl, he's fricking BHO over here. I have asthma and I can't, as horrible as it sounds, I can't handle those terpene levels. You know, it's just, it's very harsh on my lungs. Sets off my asthma.

3:22:55Collin PalmerYeah, there's some hash makers that can't be in the room and they have to wear masks. We've had a couple of those.

3:23:00BubblemanI had those in my room as well. And I felt bad for the men. They were not just wearing like a little mask. They were wearing like a giant breather where that would cover their face, like up to over the, you know, right below their eyes. I just thought like, man, that's like, if I loved hash so much and couldn't work in the room without getting itchy or like, you know, like not being able to breathe is pretty huge, man.

3:23:24BubblemanThat might be a deal breaker for me.

3:23:26Pedros Grow RoomI'm not going to lie. And man, having to run a mini split in the room dries it out so much.

3:23:34BubblemanShout out to all the asthmatic hash makers or the people who have allergies to cannabis that still make hash because that's impressive. That's tough. Yes, a respirator, PK Brewer. Thank you.

3:23:50Archive SeedsI'll give people that do have that issue there. You can buy a they're expensive, but it's like a welding and metalworking extraction hood. And it's like a helmet that you put on with a respirator that goes on your back with a battery. But you don't have to wear an actual mask, right? Interesting. Like a full helmet like you would use for like doing metalworking or heavy equipment.

3:24:16Pedros Grow RoomWe've actually considered getting an evaporative I have in the in the press room that we work in because it's relatively small. I just want to make sure we don't get the humidity too high.

3:24:30Archive SeedsEven if you don't have allergies to cannabis yet, it is a developed allergy. So if you are working with cannabis in like a cold room all the time, especially if it's dry trim versus fresh frozen, and you're not covering your arms and your sleeves and making sure you're trying to reduce your exposure, you may develop an allergy over time. And if you do this professionally, it may make sense to get yourself the proper PPE to push that off.

3:25:00Collin PalmerIndeed. Now, I can't, I have to wear a respirator around pollen because I can't, I can't be around it anymore. It's gotten too bad for me. Yeah.

3:25:11Archive SeedsI don't know if it's for you, Fletch, but it's developed around pollen for 15 years. That happens to be like year three or four of growing.

3:25:20Pedros Grow RoomThe terpenes in the room doesn't seem to bother me. I'm in the room at least three or four days a week, eight hours every day. And I generally don't have a problem with that, but it's the dryness that really gets me.

3:25:35Archive SeedsYeah, it's trim rooms, trim rooms, dry trim rooms. That's usually the worst for most people.

3:25:43Collin PalmerI was going to say something that Jen brought up. You know, when it gets greasy, we dry the room out and get it. We drop it down to like 25, you know, or below.

3:25:53Pedros Grow RoomOh, dude. Oh, sorry.

3:25:57Collin PalmerSorry, go ahead.

3:25:58Pedros Grow RoomYeah, I thought you were done, Brooke. Go ahead.

3:26:00Collin PalmerI was going to say, just to get the greasy stuff through bags and not have the ability or not have it catch through the bottom, you know how it gets stuck on the bottom, you know, like that. And you just, you know, so if you can do those things, it typically helps. But I hear you.

3:26:17Pedros Grow RoomYeah.

3:26:21Pedros Grow RoomIn rosin, collecting the oil is definitely temperature specific. There's some that shatter really quick. You know, the cold gear gets really shattery. And then there's some that you just can't collect because it's so sticky, which is generally those greasy ones.

3:26:45Collin PalmerTotally agree. We have to walk those into the walk-in to collect them. You know, it's been, we, back in the, for early days when we were all making THCA and trying to blend it in the carts and whatnot, that was how we, we just like being, make these big parchments and go into the, go deep into the freezer and just crack them up like glass and then put them in the jar and bring them out to room temperature because it was the only way to grab it.

3:27:10Collin PalmerCouldn't get it off the parchment. Which brings me to a question for the group about toxicity in the parchment and forever chemicals and the stuff that I've kind of had in the back of my head for a long time but never really had a chance to talk to many people about. There is in literature that does bring this stuff up. So if anybody has any thoughts on it, I'd love to hear about it because I think they do produce forever chemicals.

3:27:38Pedros Grow RoomMy first question, are we just talking about parchment paper or are we talking about silicone covered parchment paper?

3:27:44Collin PalmerI think just parchment paper in general that's been bleached because the bleaching process, from what I understand, if you read The literature that's out there on it is what toilet paper goes through and that is what causes those forever chemicals to, at least that's the process in which it goes through. So I'd love to hear everyone's thought on that.

3:28:07Pedros Grow RoomThat's my first thought is use silicone covered parchment paper, period. I don't use anything but.

3:28:16Archive SeedsRight. Well, you're probably getting, we're probably getting some silicone too then, you know, like we, this is, this is kind of known at this point, you know, I mean, we're using a processed paper product that has a coating on it to prevent sticking. The question is, what is the volume of that that is contaminating your rosin? So let's say you press off 50 grams. By weight, what's the parts per million, parts per billion of X, Y, or Z compounds?

3:28:46Archive SeedsAnd That's what we really need to know. And before we can even be like, oh, well, we should use this instead. That may be better, which obviously, you know, probably a stainless steel plate with nothing on it is probably better than, you know, parchment paper. But what's what, you know, how much damage is it is the real question, right?

3:29:09Pedros Grow RoomIn regards to microplastics or minute pieces of silicone, how much damage Dust, you know, I mean, there's dust in the air right now. How much dust do you think settles on your hash when air drying?

3:29:27Archive SeedsA fair bit. I mean, more than you get when freeze drying.

3:29:34Collin PalmerFair. I mean, I think... The one thing that comes to mind is, you know, like Fletch, you just said, you know, yeah, you're going to get some silicone in there. But I think the toxicology of it is you're right on. We need to actually understand, like someone needs to take samples and understand like what parts per million or what, you know, what is the CFU of this particular particulate matter that's in this?

3:29:59Collin PalmerAnd is it... Is it what we think it is? I'm not saying that I know that it is harmful and we have these things in it. I'm wondering if anyone else thinks this way because I've been thinking this way.

3:30:11BubblemanI have a question. Why have none of the regulatory bodies that make us test for all the things that can be bad... Adam Dizzle, Nick, Skully Vibes, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm, Storm,

3:30:42BubblemanIf it's a moot point and it really isn't happening, then people should be aware of that as well. And really, even if it's something in between those two things. Go ahead.

3:30:51Archive SeedsI wish we had Dr. Mark in here because I feel like he'd have a lot of the answers to some of these questions that we're asking for sure.

3:31:00Pedros Grow RoomThe little bit of information that I read today was that silicone is food grade and is considered safe for consumption, whereas the other... Particulates that they were finding in none.

3:31:14Dr Mark ScialdoneNot for smoking probably though.

3:31:17Pedros Grow RoomYeah, there's a difference. Yeah, very, very possibly.

3:31:21Jenn DoeEating versus combustion, like two completely different situations.

3:31:26Archive SeedsAnd I want to correct myself just really quick. I think if you had a HEPA filtered air dried room, you could have probably no dust. Okay. I just want, you know, I thought about that for a second.

3:31:41Jenn DoeBut I also keep a very clean room and it's all enclosed and I don't, yeah, I don't get dust in my head.

3:31:48Archive SeedsIt's probably still more than putting it in a freeze dryer or even in a HEPA filtered room, but a HEPA filtered room is pretty freaking clean too.

3:31:56Pedros Grow RoomNonetheless, it just brings us back to freaking details, details, details.

3:32:00Archive SeedsYeah, I'm just trying to trying to correct myself and, you know, anybody that thought that as well.

3:32:06Jenn DoeI mean, honestly, the second you open that freeze dryer door, you're introducing a difference in pressure, which is then sucking in any dust or particulates that may be in just your area, right?

3:32:17Archive SeedsWell, you're not able to open the door when it has a vacuum.

3:32:20Jenn DoeNo, but you can after the vacuum.

3:32:23Pedros Grow RoomThat's what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly. I was just going to say, I always hate... Having to open... Well, it's still, it's exposure time.

3:32:28Archive SeedsLet's just say it is. Yeah, I agree. 10 minutes, pulling it out of the freeze dryers, less than 10 hours, so... Oh, look, Dr. Mark showed up.

3:32:37Jenn DoeI'm just messing with the flesh.

3:32:41Dr Mark ScialdoneY'all are talking chemistry, man. This is my language. We're talking stuff. Hey, everybody. You're like a genie. What a great church, Mark. Man, really great. Great. Good to see you, Tim. How you doing? Not too bad.

3:32:56Tim ClarkHow you doing today, brother?

3:32:57Dr Mark ScialdoneGood to see you, Fletch and Colin, everybody, Nick. Man, I can smell your weed from here, Nick. It's making it all the way to the 802, my man. Hey, so let's talk about parchment. Yeah, this is a great, great topic, right? Because there's some things you want to avoid. First of all, Colin, you had made that statement that just using parchment under heat and pressure generates forever chemicals.

3:33:21Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's not correct. That's all correct. The one thing you got to know about Forever Chemicals is they're almost ubiquitous in our environment these days. You know, companies like 3M and DuPont and others were coating Big Mac wrappers back in the 60s and the 70s with these Forever Chemicals. These things are on stain resistant pants. They're on stain master carpet. There is so much Thank you for joining us.

3:34:12Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you for joining us.

3:34:31Dr Mark ScialdoneOther than the Fukushima radiation, that's the only thing that's going to exist from this era a million years from now, because those compounds, they've never been biologically made before, so there's no way of destroying them. That's why they're called forever chemicals. But the one thing about parchment I want to alert people to, and this is something that you ought to know, is that there is a parchment paper that's lined with something called quilon.

3:35:01Dr Mark ScialdoneLet me spell that for you. It's Q-U-I-L-O-N.

3:35:06Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd that is a myristic acid chromium three complex that's in isopropanol that they use to coat parchment papers. And I guess, you know, they used it for years, never really had an issue. Chromium. Let's talk about chromium for a second. So chromium. Chromium-3, you could buy Chromium-3 picolinate capsules at the general nutrition store. So in general, humans can tolerate Chromium-3. High doses of Chromium-3 is not good.

3:35:39Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's Chromium-6 that's real bad, right? That's the Aaron Brockovich Chromium, right? That's the chromium hex, which is really super bad. What we don't know, and this is why it's important to stay away from Keylon coated parchment for making rosin, is we don't know in the rosin making process, can you get oxidation Steve Sorenson, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD, MD,

3:36:21Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd it's just, it doesn't leave anything traced behind. I think this gentleman, I don't know you, but Pedro, you had said something about silicon coated thing. Yeah, so that would probably be the most safest option in terms of leaving any residual chemicals in the rosin. Uh silica is basically glass right or sand I guess more accurate description right so they could basically make a silicon coating over the parchment paper itself because the paper itself just your rosin would stick to it and it definitely needs some kind of low energy surface in there so the stuff just peels right off but um yeah I would just avoid keylon coated Thank you.

3:37:09Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you.

3:37:22Dr Mark ScialdoneThere's some chemistry for you. That was some information. Chemistry lesson today.

3:37:27Pedros Grow RoomI also learned that in the rosin making process, the pressure and the heat degrades the coating. Yes. And you don't reuse any of the parchment that touches the rosin bags.

3:37:44Dr Mark Scialdonethat's right that's right what you'll also notice is that the the parchment can get really brittle and so what that typically means absolutely there's there's probably some type of thing that they're putting into the parchment paper itself to plasticize it to make it a little more flexible and in that process of when you heat it either degrades that molecule or it just loses its sort of same kind of mechanical properties The other thing I wanted to mention because Jen was talking about, where are you, Jen?

3:38:15Dr Mark ScialdoneThere you are. Hey, sweetie, how are you? Good to see you. So food wrap these days. So I think you had said cellophane, you know, for the most part, cellophane, think of cellophane. Thank you so much for joining us.

3:38:53Dr Mark ScialdoneThank you so much for joining us.

3:39:22Dr Mark ScialdoneSo yeah, as anyone knows, you can't heat up food wrap, right? So this notion of, again, putting your hashish in, it's, I guess you'd call it saran wrap or glad wrap. That's polyvinyl chloride. That's, again, the same thing that you'd, So there's the chemistry lesson for today, Marcus. Glad to chime in.

3:39:49Archive SeedsSo glass jar would be desirable. Let me ask another question, Dr. Mark.

3:39:53Dr Mark ScialdoneHey, Fletch, what's going on, buddy?

3:39:56Archive SeedsWould exposure time be reducing exposure time, like the amount of time you're pressing the rosin for? Would that be desirable?

3:40:07Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, I don't know. I don't know. Like, it's so interesting, right? We used to talk about something called the turkey bag economy, right? Like, all this food wrap and parchment was never intended for use in cannabis and rosin making and You know, it's just, it's just so interesting that again, you know, us people in cannabis, because we had to be, I was listening to Marcus earlier talking about making hash in his kitchen with his mom, with a, with a big cake mixer.

3:40:44Dr Mark ScialdoneI mean, I just had this vision of Marcus all worked out. Right back in his kitchen in the day. Anyway, it just, yeah, I mean, so using food grade items is great because yeah, your food, it certainly could come in contact with food, but that doesn't necessarily mean, Fletch, that at that temperature, that, and that pressure. Right. Thank you for joining us.

3:41:29Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I mean, those are probably soy-based things, so they're probably okay. But I just think as soon as you start putting things under heat and under pressure, chemistry happens, man. You can't keep it from happening, you know?

3:41:43Archive SeedsOh, 100%. I was not expecting there to be no effect at all. I'm under the assumption that there absolutely is something that's leeching off no matter what you do, whether it's one second or one hour. But I guess what my question is, and I think that kind of answers it anyways, but I wanted your confirmation kind of, that let's say you're pressing at the same pressure, all things being equal.

3:42:09Archive SeedsYou're probably going to leech less over, let's say, one minute than you would over like 30 minutes if you're doing like a THCA press or something like people do.

3:42:19Dr Mark ScialdoneAbsolutely. What you're referring to there is what a chemist would look at in terms of what we call kinetics. And yes, the longer a reaction can ensue, the more of that degradation product you're going to see. Yeah. So certainly like if you could do things quick versus doing things prolonged period of time. Yes, definitely.

3:42:41Archive SeedsProbably going to see less transfer.

3:42:43Dr Mark ScialdoneProbably none, but just what kind of contamination have you seen from parchment?

3:42:50BubblemanI don't know, but you can. That's the thing. Everyone's just guessing. But you can't see the degradation in the paper. Like it's been discovered, right? Of course. Absolutely. But you've got to find out what is it? What is the thing to be testing for? I know that Baker's Lane on sale paper products, two day ship, Chefworth and Gold Seal specialty papers have all been tested. Thank you for joining us.

3:43:44BubblemanI'll send you.

3:43:46Dr Mark ScialdoneThey're from 1929, that company. Yeah, started. Keylon, Marcus, make sure they know how to spell Keylon or somebody spell it.

3:43:52Nikka TQ-U-I-L-L-O-N, I think.

3:43:55Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, you want to avoid that because I'd be really worried about Chromium leaching in and, you know, God knows what that's going to do. And even if it leaches in this chromium three at a nail temperature in the presence of oxygen, that shit's going to turn to chromium six. And now that's Aaron Brockovich chromium, which is super carcinogenic. Yes, absolutely.

3:44:17BubblemanYeah. Length of cancer, nasal irritations, respiratory issues like that.

3:44:23Archive SeedsLet me ask Dr. Mark another question. So if we are trying to eliminate parchment paper from the squishing process, what would be your theory of a material or a method in which we could accomplish that?

3:44:42Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, so the paper itself is just cellulose. It's just regenerated cellulose. You know, it's not, it's not that the paper's problem, it's the coating that's the problem. And what I don't know is that what happens, what's the fate of the silicon? So I think that the research that needs to be investigated, and maybe this would be a good opportunity if someone wants to start a parchment paper company specifically for hash, is show that, you know, not only are you not leaching, Um, silicone into the, into the rosin during the pressing, but that you could take a standardized piece of, of parchment paper, do a silicone analysis before and after and show that you're not losing silicone.

3:45:27Dr Mark ScialdoneIf you're losing silicon in that process, yeah, then there's silicon getting into the rosin. I don't really know. I mean, it's fucking glass, man.

3:45:37Pedros Grow RoomYou know, especially if you're not, especially if you're not reusing the parchment that comes in contact with the rosin. And yes, they're and they're only exposed to 169 degrees for two minutes and then replaced.

3:45:53Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, and like we were saying before, Pedro, something thermally happens to the parchment paper in the rosin process that changes its mechanical properties, right? It becomes more brittle, less flexible, and that's probably due to some degradation of the cellulose itself, but it might have to do with, again, if they put any additives into the parchment paper, Thank you for joining us.

3:46:48Pedros Grow RoomI would never recommend anybody use thin parchment paper like Reynolds for making rosin at all.

3:46:56Archive SeedsSo here's what I'm hearing is that rosin is for sure contaminated with silicone or other forever chemicals and we all have to smoke bubble hash only.

3:47:06Dr Mark ScialdoneIs that what I heard? Is that what I heard? Silicon Blast, though. To be honest, Fletch, there's forever chemicals in all of us. If you were to test all of our bloods, and you were to test the drinking water that you drink, and you test the pool water that you swim in, it probably has trace amounts of forever chemicals. They're ubiquitous in our environment today, unfortunately.

3:47:29Archive SeedsWell, at least not add it to the hash by not pressing everything.

3:47:33Dr Mark ScialdoneRight.

3:47:34Archive SeedsBut I guess here's my other question is, what would be the method for us to test for this stuff? Like, you know, with most testing methods like HPLC and all this stuff, you kind of need to know what you're looking for or know.

3:47:46Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, no, no, you're looking for a needle in a haystack here that's way beyond the limitations.

3:47:50Archive SeedsRight, so NMR or something crazy, right?

3:47:53Dr Mark ScialdoneNo, that's even way beyond what NMR would do. You would need to basically do trace elemental analysis and maybe do something called ICP mass spec, which is ion-coupled plasma coupled to a mass spectrometer. And the ion coupled plasma, what it does is it basically lights up any metal that's in there. They'll tell you based on the intensity of that light, how much of the metal is in there.

3:48:16Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd then the mass spec will just verify that that's the metal that you're observing. They typically do, like when you submit a sample to a lab for a full COA, they will do metals analysis by ICPMS. But what they would need to do, Fletch, is they would need to calibrate their instruments Thank you so much for joining us.

3:49:03Dr Mark ScialdoneJust look at your, look at your COAs and see if you see any anomalous thing in between the hash and in between your rosin. And if you see a spike in any metal or something like that, you know, maybe that could be due to the heat and pressure, you know.

3:49:22Archive SeedsHow much do you think that analysis you were describing would cost?

3:49:26Dr Mark ScialdoneOh, ICP analysis at a typical cannabis testing lab is probably like about $80 to $100.

3:49:31Archive SeedsSo that you could figure out, okay.

3:49:34BubblemanThis is just good content for labs. Labs are just going to be making more money.

3:49:38Archive SeedsHere's another question I have. It's like we've discussed in the past about, you know, all the different cannabinoids and, you know, different terpenoids and thiols and everything else that exists. But we never seem to be getting full assays of everything to know what's in everything. What would be the best method for, like, for example, that Italian group that found THCP years ago that has a 30X, you know, potency of THC supposedly, right?

3:50:09Archive SeedsYeah. How many compounds like that that are modifiers or affect the cannabis experience where, you know, we've all focused on like 30% THC strains saying that gets you the highest, but small amounts of these other cannabinoids, what potential effect of us not testing or knowing about those, you know, are we missing on the whole picture here?

3:50:34Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's a great, great question, Fletch. I think we had this discussion six years ago on Hash Church. I'll have to dial back, right? So where we were six years ago was before the THCP thing. But you should know that, man, that THCP molecule is super rare. And anything that's out on the market today is completely 100% synthetic. People are making that. In fact, in that paper where the Italian authors talk about isolation of THCP from, they also, they verified it by synthesizing the molecule in the lab.

3:51:07Dr Mark ScialdoneSo you can just basically pull their paper and with chemicals that you could, I guess, freely buy, you could make THCP. And that's exactly what people are doing. They're saying it's hemp derived, but it ain't hemp derived at all. It's a bunch of hillbillies in back of the farm doing. People are actually selling it? And that whole myth that it's 30 times, you know, I don't know if I buy into that, you know, that 30 times thing is basically what we call an in silico number, because what we now have, thanks to a lot of great research that's been done is we actually have the active structure of

3:51:53Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd so now computationally, what we can do is we can dock molecules into the receptor and look at their energetics to see how they bind. And what we know is that increasing the tail length at the C3, where is that carbon at C3 there, where there's typically a pentel chain in the cannabinoids, when you increase that by two carbons to the heptal chain, which is what THCP is, Thank you so much for joining us.

3:52:35Dr Mark ScialdoneYou know, CB1 agonist. Right now, that 30X number was just based on some guy sitting behind a computer and saying, oh, I could put that molecule in there and it really likes to be in there. It does appear that that area of the receptor has a certain hydrophobic promiscuity to it that can accommodate larger carbon chains. And it totally makes sense. But I think the whole 30X numbers, you don't know yet.

3:53:01Dr Mark ScialdoneIt's been blown way down. Until we get cellular biology data on it in the literature, we can't really say it's 30X. Of course. But I've known a few people who've dabbed it. I think we've talked about this on Hash Church, Mark.

3:53:14BubblemanI thought Sam had it.

3:53:16Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I think Sam had it. He said he got super lit. The stuff that Sam had, I think, was purified. But I think we talked about this when Alec was on from SC Labs, right, Mark? Maybe like about a month ago. And yeah, he said that he knows people. This was, I'm just paraphrasing what Alec from SC said, that would take a hit of it and they would need to rest for the next two days.

3:53:41Dr Mark ScialdoneIt just completely put them in their chair and they didn't feel right and they felt nauseous and couldn't eat and were dizzy and had nightmares, couldn't sleep. You know, who the fuck wants that, right? Just give them good nicotine hash and they'll be fine, right?

3:53:58Archive SeedsWell, can I ask, what do you think, Mark, is the major modifier in the cannabis experience that people say? You know, is it the terps and the thiols and everything? Is it the 200 different cannabinoids and varying amounts of little bits of them? Or is it completely just placebo?

3:54:19Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, I wanted to mention something that you had said before, Fletch, which is do we know all of what we're extracting? And what I can tell you is that properly made live resin that analyzes somewhere in the like high 70s for THCA, maybe even 80% THCA, when you do a terpene analysis of that live resin, you'll add like another, you know, Thank you so much for joining us.

3:55:04Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd we're going to have an episode, Fletch, with the guys from Abstracts and Nick Ziegler, and we're going to talk about thiols in that. But I think, yeah, you're right. From where we were 10 years ago when we were talking about this to where we are now, we really do have... extraction procedures and analytical data to say that you know what we don't grab fats we don't grab waxes we don't grab all these other crap that we don't want we're only grabbing Thank you for joining us.

3:55:53Dr Mark ScialdoneOn to the cannabinoid percentage, which we determined by HPLC, we're at 99 plus percent. So we're very close to figuring out everything that we're extracting from the plant. But that said, yeah, I think, you know, Sam has said it before, you know, let's blow smoke toward the Vatican, right, Mark? Let's all do a bong rip for our dearly departed friend, who I think about every day. I'll hit the Puff Co. Yeah, he's the Jerry Garcia.

3:56:23Dr Mark ScialdoneEveryone's got the Puff Co.

3:56:26Archive SeedsSo terpenes, you think, are the main modifier.

3:56:29Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat Dave used to say, and he said it a bunch of times here on Hash Church, is not only do they potentiate, which means that they just turn up the volume, but they also modulate. Turn your pipe on. In modulation, what you're talking about is, you know, how these things work. How these things interact with receptor. And I think that, you know, it's really clear. I mean, we all know that nothing could like put you back in your chair, like a good dab from high quality hash or, you know, good live resin hit.

3:57:07Dr Mark ScialdoneAnd you do the same thing with a big thing of just, you know, water white THCA and it doesn't do anything for you. So there's certainly the entourage effect, you know, if Mishulam teaches us anything or Ethan Russo and Mishulam teach us anything, it teaches us that cannabis has got multiple chemicals in it that are responsible for what we enjoy. And I think the flavor has a lot to do.

3:57:35Dr Mark ScialdoneOur nose, like Jeremy Pum would say, The olfactory spectroscopy that we can do is very, very sensitive to slight changes In terpene content, and I think those thiols, because they're so volatile, like when you guys were talking about heat before and everything, the first things to go, and it'd be interesting to do this maybe in a freeze dryer to see if you could actually identify thiols in the vacuum trap of your freeze dryer Intentionally, like leaving it in there too long.

3:58:13Dr Mark ScialdoneSo you know that that stunky essence is going to be due to thiols, but those, you know, like the terpenes are in there in terms of like a percent or a tenth of a percent or maybe a hundredth of a percent. Those fucking thiols are in there in parts per million, okay, or parts per billion. They're there in so minute quantities, Fletch, that Thyols are really the determination of how fresh the cannabis or the hash is because those are so fleeting.

3:58:46Dr Mark ScialdoneLike, I don't know, like if you look at most of like, like you were talking about diesel before and I love the comment about you need a moldy basement in upstate New York to grow good diesel.

3:58:58Nikka TI almost fucking fell out of my chair when I heard that.

3:59:01Dr Mark ScialdoneWas that you, Nick, that said that? Yeah, I was thinking about the Albany crew when you said that. So, yeah, man, like, I think that there is something to keeping the heads intact, because think about the head. The head is kind of like a little vessel of chemicals, right? And certainly if the thiols are inside the juice, inside the heads, and you haven't ruptured them, And I would certainly think introducing a vacuum like in lyophilization or what you guys refer to as freeze drying.

3:59:35Jenn DoeYeah.

3:59:37Dr Mark ScialdoneChemists would refer to that as lyophilization. When you do that, wouldn't you think that the volatile compounds are now going to basically bust out of the head and now you're going to lose some of that real dankness and flavor in freeze drying. I mean, it'd be really cool. Thank you for watching.

4:00:14Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah.

4:00:15Archive SeedsAnd one thing about the freeze drying that helps preserve some of those inside the head is the head being frozen, right? And that helps keep a lot of that in. Of course, you lose some through the vacuum process, but reducing your exposure time to vacuum by reducing your water content from the get-go That's all, like, that's the whole goal is to reduce my exposure time, whether it's to open air and above freezing or below freezing with vacuum.

4:00:46Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. No, absolutely. Absolutely. The only point, again, I was going to make, again, just thinking about the head itself. So you broke the head off of the stem. So it's kind of like it's a sphere, but there's an opening to it, right? Isn't that right? I mean, right? So if the head breaks off...

4:01:07Archive SeedsI don't know if it's sealed or not, like where the head breaks off, whether there's cells there or not. I'm not... I don't know. Yes, it depends on how it breaks.

4:01:15BubblemanIf it breaks clean... Can you guys hear me? Yeah, we can hear you. Okay, I wasn't sure. Sorry. If it breaks clean, it's for sure going to be open. But if it breaks off at the top of the stalk that plugs into that hole... Then it would be sealed.

4:01:31Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. And in fact, Marcus, it's that according to, again, the great pioneering work by Paul Malberg, who we now know was funded by the great David Watson. There were what are called stipe cells that are right there. In fact, that's the cells where a lot of these synthases exist that are making the cannabinoids. And it's so cool because if you look at the biosynthetic pathway of cannabinoids, it intersects with the biosynthetic pathway of terpenes.

4:02:02Dr Mark ScialdoneIn fact, cannabinoids are basically phenylated Terpenoids, if you think of it that way, because there's a terpene portion to the cannabinoid molecule, and then there's the all-talvic acid portion of the molecule, which comes from the polyketide synthase, which all that chemistry is happening there, right there, right at the Right at the ball, right at the base of the ball, I believe. I mean, again, I'm going to Paul Malberg's work, and too bad Chimera's not here because he probably knows this a lot better than I do.

4:02:36Dr Mark ScialdoneOh, there he is.

4:02:37BubblemanThis is Hash Church, man. You know how we do.

4:02:41Archive SeedsI had to bring the conversation in to get them to come in.

4:02:45Dr Mark ScialdoneRyan, am I right? Is that where the stipe cells are?

4:02:49Ryan Dank AfI was typing a message to Wade at the same time, so I missed part of it. Snipe cells are at the bottom of the... They're kind of at the abscission layer at the bottom of the gland.

4:03:01Dr Mark ScialdoneAt the bottom of the head?

4:03:03Ryan Dank AfYeah.

4:03:05Dr Mark ScialdoneRight. So if you're just breaking off the head, right, you're now exposed the stipe cells to, so, right. I mean, we're, we're wondering again, the impact that, that, you know, vacuum versus dry or air drying would have on removing some of the most volatile components like the sulfur containing, you know, thiols and whatnot.

4:03:29Ryan Dank AfI think that stuff's all probably done in vacuoles within the cell. Yeah, I think it's and then Marburg's work with THC showed that it wasn't, you know, when they did that silver staining, anybody, yeah, they didn't, that was it kind of stained all over the gland, not all over, but at least the lower portion. But that could have just been an artifact of that, you know, we're talking an atom one, right?

4:03:52Ryan Dank AfSo

4:03:54Dr Mark ScialdoneWhat's super interesting here, let me just add this notion before I forget it, is that if you guys have been following the work by Abstracts, and Ian from Abstracts I think is going to join us on that hash church when we talk about the volatile compounds, they've been sampling rosin. And I asked them when I was out at BizCon in Vegas, you know, well, what is the impact that rosin has on these compounds?

4:04:21Dr Mark ScialdoneBecause obviously, if you're heating up anything that's volatile, it's just going to dissipate, right? And he goes, hey, Mark, that's a really good question. We should do a side by side comparison with live resin because the whole magic of live resin is to do a low temperature extraction and try to never, ever heat those things up at all. You'd have to think that even applying a little bit of heat and a little bit of vacuum, you're going to lose some of your some of your dankness.

4:04:51Dr Mark ScialdoneNow that's again assuming that those thiols are basically freely exchangeable and can be vacuumed away.

4:05:00Archive SeedsWell, and I think it's an equation. It's the amount of hours at X temperature above freezing is equal to X amount of hours of loss under freezing under vacuum, right? So it could be, you know, 12 hours under vacuum is equal to five days air dried at 45 degrees or whatever your conditions are. And there's just an equivalence of loss, a curve for both. And then there's a point in which they intersect.

4:05:28Archive SeedsAnd then there's a point at which one is losing more than the other faster, which is the freeze dryer obviously is going to have a much more aggressive curve.

4:05:40Collin PalmerDr. Mark, are you familiar with the Prince Rhubart drop? You ever heard of that theory? Say that again? The teardrop shape, Prince Rupert's drop. You ever heard of that concept or that, you ever seen that shape? So when the hardest surface, it's one of the hard, it's like a particular shape in the way that the physics are, it makes it super hard. So the ideology is, is that when the, the head rips off of the, the stock, those lay that, that little right under the secretion there, it's sort of kind of creates more of that shape there.

4:06:16Collin PalmerAnd I believe that there's, there has to be a correlation that why we don't just lose everything. Right. So some of the, my, the theory, the theory is, Just like the question I asked earlier about the PFAs, because I don't, we don't really know any of this stuff. We have to learn. It feels to me like this, this is, it's holding itself together and it's just nature, right?

4:06:40Collin PalmerLike nature's doing this to itself based on sheer, perhaps it's, you know, just another defense mechanism of the plant, right? For itself to save itself. So the actual glands don't explode or pop, right? So it seems to me like there's, it's creating some sort of shape. It's like, why can we dry sift this stuff and not that and have them not explode, right? There has to be a particular structure.

4:07:06Ryan Dank AfWhen they dry, when they dry sift, they cure. So you're getting a little bit of a, yeah, it's like a drop of resin that cures on the outside. But you got to remember too, these things are like, it's one of the things I always had the problem with when people said that water hash has no, It loses a lot of the terpenes it might lose some of the terpenes but it's kind of like saying you're washing the dust off the outside of a bowling ball right like what's what's inside the gland does not get rinsed through so of course there's still tons of flavor in the gland um well and and ryan what might happen with um the yin and yang of hydrophobic hydrophilic is that when you're in water

4:07:48Dr Mark ScialdoneNow, those hydrophobic glands are maybe going to seal shut like an asshole. It's not going to want to stay open because it doesn't like the water environment, right? Am I making sense? Yeah, I'm using that one for sure, bro. I'm using that.

4:08:09Archive SeedsOh, you're making perfect sense.

4:08:11Jenn DoeI was thinking like a yoga ball, but I guess we can go half.

4:08:16Archive SeedsIt depends on what kind of terpenes I guess you're talking about as well, right? What the freezing point of those are and their volatility and whether they're hydrophobic or not.

4:08:26Ryan Dank AfWell, and again, they're bound into the cannabinoid mixture, which are highly hydrophobic molecules. So that whole kind of suspension, that little droplet of cannabinoids and resins, sorry, not of cannabinoids, but resin, which is high in cannabinoids, is actively pushing the water away from the globule, right? So it's definitely not so easy. It's not like you're taking... Thank you for joining us.

4:09:07Ryan Dank AfThe trichome layer is also a semi-permeable membrane, right? And the evidence for that is that you can smell the cannabidiol, or you can smell the terpenes as you walk through the field. Like it's constantly, it's constantly, I think of it like a little, a Wyclef tower. Marcus, maybe you can Google Wyclef tower, or sorry, Wardenclef tower, W-A-R-D-E-N-C-L-Y-F-F. It's one of those Tesla towers that he designed to broadcast energy.

4:09:38Ryan Dank AfUm, and like, like those towers were intended to broadcast energy. That's kind of what the resin gland is doing is broadcasting this chemical signal that the plant is producing. Don't forget that cannabinoids and terpenes or terpenes at least are semiochemicals. And that just means that they're signaling molecules. Okay. Um, and, and we know from other conversations that we've had on the show many times that That the terpenes are the largest chemical class of molecules on the planet.

4:10:12Ryan Dank AfThey're this language that is spoken between bacteria and fungi and animals and plants.

4:10:19Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, to be accurate, it's terpenoids, right? Terpenes are a class within the terpenoids.

4:10:26Ryan Dank AfTerpenoids include molecules that have sulfur and... Let's not get caught off on a tangent to belabor the larger point, which is very accurate, that those glands are much like a Wardenclyffe tower that are broadcasting a signal from the plant out into the rest of the biosphere, right? So I think that those are a good analogy. The other thing I wanted to just touch on briefly before the topic moves too far away is the concept of THCP or the discussion of THCP.

4:10:59Ryan Dank AfI just recently sent this clip of David to Wade, a little recording clip that I took when the three of us were visiting together. And David made this comment that I'd heard him say many times, which was, I was quite a madman when I was young. And, you know, he used to do some pretty insane stuff with different psychedelics and just trying drugs. And he was never, you know, even with the terpenes and like, you know, with the THC, when he got the, when he was allowed to have the testing laboratory at Horta Farm, they were given permission from the federal government to order one gram lots of THC to calibrate their gas chromatograph machinery.

4:11:40Ryan Dank AfAnd of course, what did David do is stick it in a pipe, right? Which was not what you were supposed to be doing, but the curiosity, of course, got the better of him. So when that Italian paper was released, of course, David went out and found some THCP, right? So that he could get an understanding of just how exactly that molecule worked on a bioassay. And he told me that he didn't really like it.

4:12:06Ryan Dank AfIt was so strong that it kind of made him wobbly or tipsy, right? Like he was kind of stumbly when he went out to the kitchen to get a Coca-Cola. He had a hard time standing up. So it definitely is stronger.

4:12:21Ryan Dank AfAnd we know this, Mark, also from extending the molecule on some of these other synthetic cannabinoids. You know, when you extend that pencil carbon chain into a longer molecule, it has a higher KI, it has a higher binding affinity.

4:12:36Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, in fact, the x-ray crystal structure was solved with one of those synthetic cannabinoids docked into it, right? And then they could just computationally erase that molecule and there's the active site, right? Absolutely.

4:12:51Ryan Dank AfRight. So what we're saying-

4:12:53Archive SeedsLet me ask you a question really quick just so I can follow along for us that aren't quite as versed. So basically what you're saying is that the 1% may actually be some of these whatever cannabinoids that may or may not have potency.

4:13:12Ryan Dank AfI didn't go as far as to say that, but you can't rule it out. Put it that way, you can't rule it out. That's my point.

4:13:19Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I mean, if you look down in the weeds, like we were looking at some compounds the other day and we really blew up the baseline to where the chromatogram got super noisy. And when you blow things up, and this is by HPLC and we're using a mass spectrometer detector, which is really sensitive. We could start seeing things down at that level where if we add up each one of those little bumps, we might get to like maybe a half or a quarter of a percent.

4:13:50Dr Mark ScialdoneBut I think that for the most part, I think that if you can get a good, if you can get a good terpene analysis that gives you, you know, a fair amount of terpene, especially like in a live resin product or like in a resin product. And you add that on top of the HPLC determined terpenes, you're going to be damn near close to, you know, 97 to 99% of that material in that jar.

4:14:16Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. Characterized by those two classes of compounds.

4:14:19Archive SeedsThere may be like, let's say a strain that has 0.2% THCV or 0.5% THCV. That's right. That may accentuate some sort of effect that people feel.

4:14:30Dr Mark ScialdoneThat's right.

4:14:32Ryan Dank AfIn fairness, we've never seen THCP in that kind of physiological level. But again, just for the sake of like...

4:14:39Archive SeedsBut we have seen like THCV before, right?

4:14:43Ryan Dank AfTHCV, absolutely. Yeah. But again, THCV is kind of the opposite of THCV or THCP. It really has to do with that. You know, when you look at THC, there's a three ring structure and you've got this little tail on the end. And on pentel cannabinoids or THC or CBD, that tail is five carbons long. In the propyl cannabinoids or the varins, the THCV, CBDV, that tail is shortened to three carbons.

4:15:10Ryan Dank AfAnd in THCP, that tail is extended to seven carbons. Okay. So it's kind of like the length of the tail is proportional to the psychoactivity of the molecule.

4:15:24Archive SeedsInteresting. So basically like the... The, the, basically, you know, we generally, we, we think it's, you know, THC and the terpenes that are the majority of it. And there may be some small amount of whatever cannabinoids that are potentially affecting people's experience. I'm not saying. We can't rule it out.

4:15:44Ryan Dank AfYeah. It's really. May or may not. Yeah.

4:15:48Archive SeedsIt just depends on the, we haven't done enough studies yet.

4:15:51Ryan Dank AfExactly. Exactly. And, you know, as you know, Fletcher, once you start running a bunch of analysis on like thousands of samples, you see that there is variance in the in the cannabinoid profile.

4:16:02Archive SeedsI just don't know what any of it is other than like it seems to smoke different or other people tell me it smokes different. I may not experience a difference between these two varieties, but someone else does. And it's it's sometimes it's hard to hard to quantify what it is that What, you know, is it placebo or is it actual chemical difference?

4:16:24Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, and it really depends what you're looking at, because if you're looking at distillate, it's probably like fats and waxes from improper winterization.

4:16:33Archive SeedsI'm talking about like, like just the flower, like two different sisters from the same hybrid. People will say they have totally different experiences with them when I give them samples and they don't know that the plants are related, even sisters from the same seed lot. um but they say one's a sativa experience one's an indica experience they actually both of the sisters have kind of a similar terpene profile to be honest yeah but people have vastly different experiences when they smoke them i'm just listen that's a lot of people's experience i think i i studied this stuff in university i studied pharmacology when

4:17:11Ryan Dank AfAnd one of the things I learned in those courses was that you can give like someone that's dependent on heroin a specific dose in the set and setting in which they're used to taking the drugs. And if you move them into a new setting and give them the same dose, it can cause them to overdose. So it's really hard to attribute that kind of stuff. I think that there's so much personal expectation in settings that unless you're controlling for it, you kind of have to take those kind of reports with a bit of a grain of salt.

4:17:46Ryan Dank AfBut listen, let me just get this other thing out. Let me just get this thing out really quick because it's kind of on the topic of THCP. They've just done some testing in California. Somebody went and sampled all of these THCA hemp flower products in a bunch of the smoke sops and a shitload of them were contaminated with THCP and not small levels. So this is definitely...

4:18:12Ryan Dank AfA topic du jour. You know what I mean? Like this is a relevant thing to be talking about. Yeah, it's absolutely being used. And I was completely unaware of that even.

4:18:21Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah.

4:18:24Archive SeedsIt's like the designer drug thing all over again, but with cannabis, right?

4:18:28Dr Mark ScialdoneYes. This is Tiffany Devitt. And this is work that was, I think, funded from CannaCraft and from Martian Ash. Who have a class action lawsuit against hemp producers who are, check this out, bringing stuff in the California. Okay.

4:18:49Nikka TYeah.

4:18:49Dr Mark ScialdoneOK, they're bringing stuff into California. That's completely like not the way cannabis usually goes from California elsewhere. But basically what they're showing is that that this illicit hemp market now is basically taking away market share from these licensed businesses. Because why am I going to go buy a vape pen at the at the dispensary for 40 bucks when I can buy one here online? Two clicks after saying I'm 21, it's asking for my credit card information for 10 bucks, you know?

4:19:20Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, I try not to get in.

4:19:23Ryan Dank AfI know this conversation always starts coming up between the licensed and the unlicensed. I think that that's, I get it why these people do that is they're all concerned about they put all this money into regulated facilities and now they have to deal with, you know, these non-regulated players. I try to leave that stuff at the door and just focus the conversation on the health aspect. Right.

4:19:43Ryan Dank AfLike what's what are the health consequences of having this flower with THCP on the market? I don't care that they're they're skirting the taxes or somebody else because it's like, you know, that's that's just like fighting over somebody's money stack. But the real issue is what are the health consequences for the consumers? Right. And is it a safety risk?

4:20:04Archive SeedsFake maple syrup.

4:20:06Collin PalmerI got a question to jump in, Ryan and Dr. Mark. I mean, you know, I had the pleasure of working with a toxicologist for around three years, developed products, and it changed my perspective on how I look at everything at this stage. And I think what Ryan touched on here from a health and safety point of view, And I know Dr. Mark shares this point of view from just speaking to him a lot about this is we don't we have a lot of bad actors that are trying to put product in the market and say that they do the same thing as all of these individuals here on this panel do.

4:20:41Collin PalmerAnd the problem is, is the efficacy of that is not Even there, there is, it's not even in the room, you know? So I think the art, I guess the question I have, the other question I have is, is the article you're talking about, the great hoax, the great hemp hoax?

4:20:56Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah, that was what I was talking about.

4:20:58Collin PalmerYeah, so I think, you know, that goes, that's really important to kind of highlight here because we're all, I know most of us here are, have products in some market somewhere across the United States. And that is that's a problem because we have people that are like you just said, Dr. Mark, they'd rather just sit on their couch with their phone and be like, whatever, I'm just going to order my pen.

4:21:22Collin PalmerAnd they don't realize that they're getting poisoned, you know, by unethical producers that are don't even know what they're putting in their their products, let alone the hardware. Hey, it's 420 in the east. It's 420 in the east.

4:21:35Dr Mark ScialdoneLet's all do a bong rip. What do you think? Yeah, let's go.

4:21:40Ryan Dank AfNatural cannabis has thousands of years of known safety profile, right? All these other things that are these modern, I mean, even Delta A, right? All these modern things that are a result of chemistry or semi-synthesis are unknown.

4:21:57Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah.

4:21:57Ryan Dank AfAnd that enough for me is a red flag.

4:22:02Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, I've always been a proponent that if cannabis is legalized and completely descheduled and people have access to it, there wouldn't be a need for recreational synthetics from hemp, right? Happy 420, those of us who celebrate.

4:22:17Ryan Dank AfYeah, it's a workaround, right? It's a regulatory workaround. And it's a shame because it's like even in these states where, you know, we have this legal hemp market and there's clearly selling these psychoactive products, right? All it is is a lack of political balls of the politicians to actually solve this fucking issue.

4:22:37Dr Mark ScialdoneWell, what it comes down to, Ryan, though, really, is that it is cheaper to convert CBD at $250 a kilo You're going to only add like less than probably, I don't know, 50 cents a gram in cost. So you're at 75 bucks a kilo or something like that. Hardly anything like that to make THC for this hemp derived drinks, right? Which in places like Texas and places like Minnesota, these things have the same distribution that regular alcoholic beverages do.

4:23:10Dr Mark ScialdoneSo when you go to a wine store, an alcohol store in Minnesota, You see hemp beverages there, and I'm not against that at all, but the The D9 that's in there categorically is all synthetic. It's all made from CBD conversion. And what we know is that we can tell the difference between those two, you know, cost of regulation.

4:23:33Ryan Dank AfWe went through this whole problem in Canada when I was in high school and the taxes had gotten so high on cigarettes that the smuggling just became completely rampant. I mean, it was out of control. And The only solution was at a certain point in time was to roll back the regulations and the taxation because you're essentially keeping the regulated product out of the hands of the consumers because of the regulation, right?

4:24:02Ryan Dank AfAnd that will happen with cannabis. It has to. It absolutely has to because the alternative is we have these licensed regulated producers that are forced to be compliant with all these safety regulations Thank you for watching.

4:24:34Ryan Dank AfRight. And so the policy creators need to put their big boy pants on and level the playing field and put the consumer first and clean up the entire marketplace or at least create a situation where everybody's playing on the same level playing field.

4:24:53Archive SeedsWell, the biggest problem is that the government with the regulations didn't entice any illegal growers really to get involved in most markets because it's like, why would I go pay all these taxes and deal with the regulation and everything else? And it's only like maybe recently in places, you know, Oregon's always kind of been better with that because there wasn't a mass production scale that, I mean, it happened, but it kind of boomed and bust so fast that it didn't happen like California where you got these multi-thousand like grows that got built and Colorado was, Thank you for watching.

4:25:46Archive SeedsAnd are making successful small businesses out of it. I mean, I talked to my friends at the hydro stores and they're like, I don't really have any big monster grow customers anymore. It's more mid to medium or small to medium sized owner operators is a lot of what's going on now in some of the more mature state markets.

4:26:14Dr Mark ScialdoneYeah. I was just going to finish up on the beverage thing. So for beverage, big beverage is getting in, right? In Bev and these huge companies, billion dollar companies. And for them, THC is just an ingredient. And they play in the commodity ingredient space where the lowest price will always win, will always win. So you're going to spend a whole lot less converting CBD into that same THC molecule than getting a license Getting a greenhouse, growing a bunch of plants, hiring a staff, putting up cameras, getting background checks on everyone, doing your extraction, doing your isolation.

4:26:53Dr Mark ScialdoneBy the time you get to that same THC molecule, you'll have spent 10 times the amount that those other people just did. So it's a commodity play here, totally.

4:27:03Collin PalmerYeah, and it's funny, you know, because I used to go to Expo East and Expo West like in 2016, 17, 18. Like, they didn't want anything to do with us. They were like, nope. And in bed, same thing. They'd be like, you guys, you have some cannabis people. And now it's the opposite, right? Now they see the dollar signs. Now they see the opportunity. And as I think Fletcher said, or actually Dr. Mark just said, There is no red tape to get to that shelf.

4:27:31Collin PalmerIt's just C Store mentality. It's like, get it there and hold it there and then own that shelf space for them. And it's like, it's just not.

4:27:38Nikka TIt's also why distillates running the market as I kind of, you know, intro this conversation with, even though we think that rosin is huge right now, we're a niche.

4:27:47Collin PalmerWe're a small niche. We have to remind ourselves that a lot. You know what I mean? We are of the 1% of the 1%, right? So I agree. Nick and T, Colorado. Yes. See you, Ryan. What was that? What has changed out there for you? You've been out there for a minute. You know, you've seen the kind of change, you know, from full swing legalization. Now the hemp market's, you know, big.

4:28:15Collin PalmerLike what's, what's big out there now?

4:28:18Nikka TYou know, I'm more of a consultant in Colorado these days. I would ask Kay from in-house because he's really the new operator in Colorado. I guess I've seen what happened, you know, up until 2018, I'd say, you know, from the very onset to 2018. And there was a lot of tumultuous times. You know, I'm kind of blessed to stay alive in those times. But now it's just a little bit of a different game, even from 2018 to present.

4:28:45Nikka TSo I don't know. I'd love to hear Kay's. Yeah, man.

4:28:53K InhouseSo I think, I mean, in Colorado, it's, it's a bit different, right? So I think, you know, there's a bunch of tiered brands, you know, ranging from, you know, the big, the biggest companies out here to the smallest little, you know, 50 light to a hundred light gross. And so for us, you know, we had kind of had to find our balance in that market. So, you know, we had to be a big enough scale to provide the volume to, you know, take care of all of our accounts.

4:29:22K InhouseHowever, we still had to appeal to the heady boys. We still had to appeal to the small batch grower, the small batch farmer. So I think like for us, you know, for the longest time, I was the lead cultivator and lead washer and my brother was the lead presser. So it kind of led from like, You know, us really, really like refining the resin, leading with quality, and then you can figure out like what you can do in the market.

4:29:44K InhouseLike if you're just like simply thinking you can just throw money at us all with Ross and Company in Colorado, it's not going to happen. You really have to have the passion behind it. Yeah, you'll see them boom and bust. And for us, we launched in-house end of May this year, or 2024 May. And from May until September, we grew this company to over 100 stores across the state of Colorado.

4:30:12K InhouseAnd for a rosin company in these stores, you're only like Thank you so much for joining us.

4:30:33K InhouseThank you so much for joining us today.

4:30:58K InhouseAnd so like that's why the name of the game now in Colorado has become what flavors do you have? What's your genetic variety? And so that's why like we're thinking all the genetics that we run, they come from bloom seeds. So Harry Palms is a good friend. And so I really respect the resin that his genetics can provide us. So it's just a matter of, you know, figuring out which genetics appeal to which customers.

4:31:23K InhouseSo like when we were talking about just circle back to the Piatella side of things, the Piatella is just another kind of consistency that we run. It's just another product SKU that we have besides the Cold Cure, the Jam, the Piatella, and we also run the all-in-ones as well. If you don't have that kind of variety and you're only focusing on one kind of consistency, it's going to be really hard to bring in that customer on a monthly basis.

4:31:51Collin PalmerYeah, I think, you know, well said, man. You know, we're operators in New York State and we've got some products in the market. Shout out to Housing Works and to Elevate ADK.

4:32:04Dr Mark ScialdoneTim, you're in the hemp space in Colorado, aren't you, Tim?

4:32:07Tim ClarkYes, sir, still am. And we've recently, not just this year, but previous eight years have been developing type threes specifically for the utilization of solventless SOPs. And when everybody's talking about the three to 4%, I'm laughably, conceivably every week looking at yields in the sub 1% range doing a fresh frozen process that ultimately do at the end of the day yield Something that's extremely viable for a marketplace.

4:32:35Tim ClarkBut at the end of the day, too, it's also extremely unstable relative to what we have to do just because of the arbitrary standards of the Delta 9 THC intrinsic to a natural hemp extraction.

4:32:46Nikka TI respect, yeah, Tim, that's what's up. Yeah, it's been an issue going above that ratio or whatever.

4:32:57Tim ClarkAbsolutely. Especially when I've seen your development, Nick, with your solventless brands going into the hemp space as well. And one of my bigger contentions with all the market being just a distillate base is that even as it is a niche, The best medicine truly seems to come from the broad diversity of what comes into that type of an extraction method. I mean, at the end of the day too, we can, as Fletch has pointed out multiple times, we can easily make isolates out of our solventless products, but yet that is an intrinsic cost that downstream, it's really hard for us to apply to a market, especially when Knowingly, to get it to that point, we've already technically decarboxylated two-thirds of our native carboxylic acid species, which immediately puts us within the purview of federal statute.

4:33:47Tim ClarkSo it's kind of a dual edged sword, kind of a conundrum with the hemp space, just because we've got a very low product yield on the front side. But then secondarily, coming back with an astringent compliance that we have to actually abide by, it makes it very tough for solventless to truly exist in the hemp space. Generally, it kind of lends itself more to infused products for solventless bases, kind of like what we do with animals for our vets grade products and generally what we do for our full spectrum solventless CBD products with foothills.

4:34:18Tim ClarkBut at the end of the day there, it's still even at such a diluted ratio to what we could find as the minimum effective dosage that as much as it is medicine, it's not even idealized by us formulary chemists that want to be able to use it in the respect and capacity that we could and can and should be able to.

4:34:36Nikka TFor real. Yo. I applaud that.

4:34:42Tim ClarkIt's tough being in both sides of the field with regulated THC and regulated hip cultivation with the CDA because we're not even under the same audit systems. We're not under the same audit schedules. It's... It's partially trivial, but it's a great place to be. And putting solventless out into the hemp world is a great thing to do. It's a tough expenditure to want to take on as an operator, but still, it's a market that has almost an endless growth potential to where we're kind of topping out with every operator coming on being essentially just a distillate hydrocarbon manufacturer.

4:35:19Tim ClarkWhich that holds its place too many times as Marcus has said. It's just that the market right now is even being dominated by derivatives and synthetic derivatives. Even expansive into I've seen people doing combination pharmacy essentially with mushrooms and cannabinoids now. Even in the unregulated markets, people have been combining DMT preps with cannabinoids now. LSD, isomers, all of it, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, to a chemist, these are just active ingredients.

4:35:48Tim ClarkTo everybody else, they just don't necessarily seem to be interwoven in an industrial fashion just yet. The more regulated it becomes and the tighter that we'll get, and hopefully here in the next year with where that farm bill might develop, we might see a little bit of that prevalence of the synthetic isomers and such kind of going to the wayside, potentially. We'll see. I mean, as a chemist, I'm all for anything I can make with any reagent I can make just for the intuitive intellectual capacity.

4:36:16Tim ClarkOutside of that, the regulated market with minus the safety testing, I can't put a product out there and I wouldn't condone a product being out there that hasn't actually been through that type of safety profile evaluation. But, you know, there's... Much respect, Tim.

4:36:31Dr Mark ScialdoneMuch respect. So, Tim, what do you...

4:36:34Archive SeedsSo, you make solventless...

4:36:38Tim ClarkUh hemp hash is that yes absolutely unfortunately due to the regulatory standards we actually it is a diluted form of solventless extract you have to mechanically separate out all your heavy terpene and heavy volatile fractions so that you could technically reintroduce and dilute your overall psychoactive fractions for your delta 9 thc Everything predominantly stays into the carboxylic acid form. But at the end of the formulary process, you get down to what needs to go to the market.

4:37:10Tim ClarkIt still has to abide by the total delta nine THC weight by weight. So to even get there with a raw extract, you would either have to reintroduce non-native terpenes, of which not necessarily always the best idea. But then secondarily, if you do introduce the same terpenes that you previously mechanically separated, it's not as bad, but it's still something that a consumer I would personally think would want to be aware of.

4:37:35Collin PalmerHmm. So the products you're making are mainly deconstructed products that you're controlling the formulation, formulaic work at the end result?

4:37:45Tim ClarkWith the solventless, yes, absolutely. I will call them what they are, but at the end of the day, yes. It's just minus all of the excessive solvents, secondary solvents, tertiary solvents. Just utilizing what the plant already has because like I say, as Fletch has pointed out, you can derive any fit and form and almost any function relative to understanding the variable concentrations part of that process that it entails.

4:38:10Collin PalmerSure. Yeah, the hemp world, you know, I've had a license in that world since 2012 and it's, you know, I know Mark, you've spent your career Tinkering for a long time in that realm. Where do you think this goes from where we're at? It just seems so far down the rabbit hole. How do we pull that rabbit out?

4:38:35Tim ClarkRealiztically, there is no type three on an AOSCA certified seed list, unfortunately. Doesn't matter where you go. Most regulations that come on board state to state to state seem to want to use either the previously established standard in Colorado to where you could have up to three years prior showing that it is within a hemp program's compliance for field production. So really what it would look to would be more of The seed forms that I think Ryan would speak to the most with where essentially you're doing the encapsulated seeds to where you could get a better genetic expression within a self populace or even down the line to where you, I don't want to say genetically modified, but you have gene excluded a populace through through allelic separations.

4:39:22Tim ClarkTo do that, that would really intrinsically make it so that every type of variety that would come out and every expression that would come out would be more intrinsically tuned to the type of epithelial thicknesses on the trichomes that we really need to keep the vessels as vessels instead of getting essentially the soup mess that I guarantee every one of you, everyone, anybody that's ever tried to make solventless out of hemp gets.

4:39:46Nikka TIt's not even just the shit or the... I don't know the amount of wax that the shape of these trichomes are not circular, not round oftentimes.

4:39:57Tim ClarkAbsolutely. They are malformed intrinsic to what we're trying to separate as with fixed micron forms in our seeds. Yes. So... It makes it a little bit tough. So if we can at least get to that level to where we are able to do that type of genetic evaluation on these plants and do selective breeding relative to gene facilitated breeding, then we could really finalize a end product for the market that we could say consistently could go through an AOSCA certification.

4:40:26Tim ClarkAnd then ultimately we would have a utility function for it as opposed to just A broad base extract because with solvents, as everybody knows that as a chemist, Dr. Mark involved, we can get a lot of different things as long as the specificity of that solvent is relative to the substances we're trying to extract. In the solventless SOP, we get everything that is there relative to the extrusion force, heat, and pressure applied to that system.

4:40:52Tim ClarkSo for us, we're getting essentially within a native confirmation sense, more native substances. But then as a precursor, we're looking at it as downstream. These have more utility for the diversity of what's really there.

4:41:07Collin PalmerExcuse me, from a genetic and genomic point of view, I get it from, you know, just a genomic marker point of view. I think that's where we have to get to a place that, but I think the market demands something much faster than that process can provide us.

4:41:23Tim ClarkAbsolutely, absolutely. The market demands what they could have received three days ago relative to a click on the internet, unfortunately. They've been asking for this product for... Yeah, over a decade now, really. Absolutely. And even in working with the type threes that we've been able to develop, developing eight type threes specifically to be able to bring to market has taken an excess of nine years.

4:41:46Nikka TAnd that's the only people that are actually like, you know, operating in this realm or not doing it by regulatory. No, absolutely.

4:41:55Tim ClarkI guarantee you a CDA auditor, if they knew that your moral majority product was coming from a THCA base, they would not license you. They would not license that plot. They just wouldn't do it. So it's really tough to get involved. In Colorado, they're extremely questionable on what they're considering relative THCA as a precursor because they've got a lot of laws that they've recently established relative to that, especially with the safe harbor base that we have.

4:42:27Tim ClarkSo we're allowed to have relative amounts of precursor now, but we still can't go past the USDA standard of 1% for it. It's kind of an odd thing to where they're at least allowing processors to remediate just a little bit, at least on the front side, but they will not allow us necessarily to put a final product out into the market under that standard. Even labs have actually recently started denying a lot of the consult people that we work with to where they're saying that this is technically a type one plant.

4:42:59Tim ClarkSo being a type one plant, we legally can't test it because it doesn't fall under the industry compliance standard for the USDA.

4:43:09BubblemanWell, wow, that was, we're going deep here. We're almost at five hours, if you can imagine, went a little past the amount of time I usually take these, but that was awesome. And I wanna thank everyone for kind of coming out and sharing. Sorry that damn it, Bobby missed us. He was going to come on today and share. And I guess he had a personal, his wife hurt herself, hurt her foot or something.

4:43:37BubblemanSo we'll hope that she's better and hope that he's okay. We'll talk to him the next time. Definitely want to thank all of you guys for coming on from John and Tim and Colin and Jen and Aaron and Dr. Mark and Nickity and in-house and Wade Laughter. I'm definitely going to give you the option, Wade, if you want to close us out with a 30 second to a five minute, whatever you want.

4:44:00BubblemanI always like to give you that opportunity. But first, before that, I also want to thank everyone for watching. We had almost 500 people watching live today, which was incredible. I want to thank Sean at Heritage Seed Bank. You guys can check them out at heritageseedbank.com. Hashtag 15 will give you a 15% discount off of that. I want to thank the team at Low Temp Industries. Shout out to you guys.

4:44:26BubblemanObviously, that's lowtemp-plates.com. You can check them out. And a big thanks to Puffco. For sponsoring as well. Those are the three sponsors today. Big shout out to Puffco, puffco.com or at Puffco, P-U-F-F-C-O on Instagram. I'll put all the links and all the things in the description of the video and we will definitely see you next Sunday. Shout out to Skunk Man Sam for being such a huge inspiration to me in my life over the last 25 years.

4:44:59BubblemanTotally inspiring me on such a huge level. It felt great to look up to someone of his caliber. If you're going to look up, look up as high as you can possibly look up. And I feel like I chose pretty well with that. And I want to thank him for that and thank everyone else for just coming and sharing. And yeah, what a great Sunday morning to share with all of you.

4:45:24BubblemanWade, do you want to share with us? Do you want to take us out, brother?

4:45:28Wade LaughterYeah, I wanted to jump in and offer this. I was an indoor grower for 15 years and then I grew outdoors for 10 or 12 years. And there's been an incredible amount of information shared about how to create the best quality cannabis so that you can create the best quality hash. And this panel is full of professionals. I don't consider myself really a professional in this work.

4:45:57Wade LaughterI love it very much, but have never had to take on the responsibilities of a major company like many of you are doing. That being said, we started off with talking about Take care of yourself, your own needs. And I would like to point out that I think most everyone on this panel started off not really knowing what you were doing. And you learned. Maybe you learned by experience.

4:46:25Wade LaughterMaybe you learned by talking to people who knew what they were doing. But the real trick is to get started. Don't be shy. You learn from what you're doing and you can make some really beautiful hash, but you have to do it. And I know Skunk Man Sam would definitely encourage anyone and everyone, grow if you can, make hash if you can, enjoy. That's all I got.

4:46:54Wade LaughterThank you.

4:46:56BubblemanThanks for coming, everybody. May that full mouth bless your bowl sooner than later. We'll see you next time on Hash Church. Peace out.

4:47:03Dr Mark ScialdoneBye, everyone.

4:47:05BubblemanThank you.